From george.lin at documentum.com Sun Jun 1 04:06:34 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970601020634.00a92bc0@lion.documentum.com> I responded to a Usenet post regarding some UCSD P-Code stuff. It turned out the guy had a garage of other stuff that he was trying to get rid of. Here's what I got in two carloads: o 1 Kaypro II, 1 Kaypro 2X (dead--for parts), 1 Kaypro 4 o 1 boxed Commodore 64, 1 Commodore 128, plus a bunch of Commodore accessories including a CP/M cartridge for C64 o 1 Osborne Executive o 1 Compaq suitcase o 1 Atari 520ST (dead--for parts), 1 Atari 1040ST, 1 boxed Atari Falcon030, plus 2 Atari RGB monitors and other Atari accessories o 1 boxed Timex Sinclair 1000 o 1 TRS-80 Model 1 with expansion interface and disk drive o 1 Vector 4 o 2 Apple IIc's, one of them is a rare prototype o 20 Xerox paper cartons full of original software on disks/tapes for the above systems, manuals, out-of-print computer books, and old computer magazines The price? Free. George P.S. My back still hurts. -- ______________________________ ______________________________ / /\ / /\ / George Lin _/ /\ / Opinions expressed in this _/ /\ / Antique Computer Collector / \/ / message do not necessarily / \/ / http://museum.home.ml.org /\ / reflect my employer's. /\ /_____________________________/ / /_____________________________/ / \_____________________________\/ \_____________________________\/ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ Apple IIe, IIc, Mac 512K, Atari 800, 800XL, 1040ST, Falcon030, VCS, 5200, ColecoVision VGS, Commodore 64, 64C, 128, plus/4, Compaq, Eagle II, KayPro II, 4, Nintendo NES, Osborne Executive, TI 99/4A, Timex Sinclair 1000, 1500, TriGem SLT-100, TRS-80 Model I, III, 100, Color Computer 2, Vector 4. From gram at terra.cnct.com Sun Jun 1 09:45:20 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970601020634.00a92bc0@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > > The price? Free. > > P.S. My back still hurts. My heart bleeds, you lucky bastard. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 00:43:22 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > > About 5 feet of disks (apple II) of which about 25 or so were CP/M (?) > > CP/M disks? Ooh, wish I had those for my IIe... I have a Microsoft SoftCard IIe > (brilliant product, btw) but the CP/M boot disks for it are gone. I really > should talk to Don Maslin, I suppose. I have the originals (as well as the card itself). Let me know if you want copies. > And how do you measure disks in feet? Side by side? :-) > > > > About 10 feet of books including (and I don't know why) users manuals and > > tape software for an "Epson HX20 Notebook Computer" (didn't get the > > computer tho :( looks neat no the cover) > > Oh yeah! Pity you didn't get the computer. It was a really good machine > (for its time). You can see some detailed information about it at: I have one, and would be interested in the manuals if Mr. Self Destruct would be so kind. I forget exactly who Mr. SD is so if he could send me an e-mail perhaps we can work out a trade. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 01:24:32 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970601020634.00a92bc0@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > I responded to a Usenet post regarding some UCSD P-Code stuff. It turned > out the guy had a garage of other stuff that he was trying to get rid of. > Here's what I got in two carloads: <...> > accessories including a CP/M cartridge for C64 A CP/M _carthridge_? Awesome. > o 1 Atari 520ST (dead--for parts), 1 Atari 1040ST, 1 boxed Atari Falcon030, What's a Falcon030? > o 1 boxed Timex Sinclair 1000 Boxed? Sweet. > o 1 Vector 4 What's that? > o 2 Apple IIc's, one of them is a rare prototype What's the prototype like? I would be totally interested in seeing a picture of this and hearing more detail about it. > The price? Free. Actually, I'm used to getting most of my stuff for free now. I hate it when I have to pay for any old computer junk because I've been so spoiled with free crap lately. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 01:21:05 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970601020634.00a92bc0@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > I responded to a Usenet post regarding some UCSD P-Code stuff. It turned > out the guy had a garage of other stuff that he was trying to get rid of. > Here's what I got in two carloads: > o 1 Kaypro II, 1 Kaypro 2X (dead--for parts), 1 Kaypro 4 > o 1 boxed Commodore 64, 1 Commodore 128, plus a bunch of Commodore > accessories including a CP/M cartridge for C64 > o 1 Osborne Executive > o 1 Compaq suitcase > o 1 Atari 520ST (dead--for parts), 1 Atari 1040ST, 1 boxed Atari Falcon030, > plus 2 Atari RGB monitors and other Atari accessories > o 1 boxed Timex Sinclair 1000 > o 1 TRS-80 Model 1 with expansion interface and disk drive > o 1 Vector 4 > o 2 Apple IIc's, one of them is a rare prototype > o 20 Xerox paper cartons full of original software on disks/tapes for the > above systems, manuals, out-of-print computer books, and old computer > magazines > > The price? Free. My personal haul today is not nearly as impressive, mostly because I had to pay for the stuff, but I can't complain, since I've had days like George's a couple of times. An HP-85 and Commdore Tape Drive (ooh ahh) for $20. The HP85 is pretty cool. It has a tiny CRT built into the unit (the same size as an Osborne 1's screen). It is about the same dimensions as an Apple ][, but with the added height to house the screen and a built-in printer (don't know if it is thermal or ink, all I know is that it is quiet...any help on this?) It also has a built in BASIC, it seems to be capable of hi-res graphics, and it has a 5-slot HPIB bus on the back. A very cool system. Anyway, know anything more about this thing? I'd like to get a manual and some HPIB cards. An Apple ][ - it's in ratty shape but I got it for $7 with some periphs. I need to clean it up. This one seems to have auto-start integer basic ROMs (it finds the disk controller and boots it rather than dumping into the monitor when you turn it on), which is odd but I think I've heard of this before. I'm still going to be on the look-out for a nicer one, but this one will suffice for now. Also, it is missing the D8 ROM but seems to work fine, Integer BASIC and all. Anyone know anything about this? An Atari 600XL in the original box - the box has seen better days, but this unit is complete, with all the accesories in their original box/bag. This is a nice complement to my 800XL. I also met a guy who says he has all manner of atari stuff, like a 65XE and 130XE, so I'm going to be hooking up with him to check that stuff out. - $10 And the cool find of the day: get this, an Epson PX-8 laptop! This is similar to the Epson HX-20, but is sleeker and better. It has a flip-up display (looks like 10 lines by 80 columns), a full-size keyboard, and like the HX-20 has a micro-cassette tape drive for storage. That's all I know about it so far because I got no manuals and haven't been able to power it up yet (I need to find the right PS). Allegedly it runs CP/M. I'll fill you guys in on the details as I figure it out. I think this is a new find, and needs to be added to the classiccmp list o' systems. I don't remember it being in there. Am I wrong? At any rate, this is truly THE FIND OF THE DAY! - $15 I passed on an IBM 5155 for $30 because it was in ratty shape and I didn't even want to bother haggling over it. It was being sold by the same guy who I bought the Apple ][ from and who has the Atari stuff, so I figure I can always go back for it. Was I foolish to pass this up? I was told it comes up with a PARITY ERROR upon boot up, which most likely means a bad RAM chip. I also saw some Digital platters which might interest you DECheads. I can't remember the model number (something like RKL051...) but they were brand spanking new in a sealed plastic bag (two of them). If someone wants these, I can always find the seller and snag them for you. Also, I still have that RK-02 dual 8" drive unit if anyone is interested. Hope your classic computer scrounging was a fruitful as mine was. Stay tuned for further information on the Vintage Computer Festival (as I am now calling it). I should have a firm date and more details within the next couple of weeks. If all goes as I am planning, it should be a nice show, and will hopefully get some of you long distance folks to come out to california to attend. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 01:27:22 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: stuff to pass along Message-ID: Auction Web is a crappy place to get old computer junk from, but there is a guy auctioning off an HP9000/300 and another guy with a Radio Shack Model 1 and Model 4 (TRS-80 I believe). The 9000 is going for (I forget how much) but the TRS-80s are at $26 but nobody has bid yet (the guy started it at $26 which is too much). If it doesn't sell someone can go in and make the guy an offer after the auction is over. You can get to auction web by going to http://www.ebay.com/aw Once you're there, search on item pzp53335 for the HP9000/300 and item zyl71421 for the TRS-80s. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 01:00:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: <199705282322.RAA24573@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 1997, Jim wrote: > And now, in the "the more things change, the more they stay the same" category, > > By now most of you have probably heard of the Tiger Learning Computer. It's > an apple 2E clone that plugs into your tv and has rom carts for its programs. > > Let's see. Color, plugs into a tv, can be cartrige driven, less than 200 > bucks US. *sigh* I think Commodore died too soon. The 64 was all this and > more. Now if I could just find one of the little beasties... (the TLC, > not the C=64 - it wouldn't be the same as the one that was MINE.) I've been wanting to get one of these really bad. They kinda sorta decided to scrap the whole idea (they=Tiger). I guess JCPenny has an exclusive distribution but everytime I checked their catalog during christmas they didn't have it in there. If somebody knows where I can buy the Tiger Learning Computer from, by all means speak up. I was reading an issue of BusinessWeek that had an article on commercial product design awards. Awards are given out each year for industrial design of various products. This year a couple computers, which are surely to become classic 10 years from now, won awards. I was thinking about other systems that will be classic collectibles 10 years from now. So allow me to propose this list of computers that will be so: The Psion Series 3 (3, 3a, 3c) and Psion Siena - awesome palmtop computers with multi-tasking operating system and integrated applcations (I have one and swear as well as live by it). Any PalmTop - HP OmniGo, Casio Cassiopea (with Windows CE), etc. Also, some of the personal digital assistants like the Sharp Zaurus. The Apple Newton and the Sony MagicLink. The Apple eMate (one of the industrial design winners). It has a touch-screen and is basically a Newton but has a full-sized keyboard and is smaller and lighter than a laptop. It has no disk or hard drive. The Philips VELO1 - a palmtop running Windows CE (also a winner in the BusinessWeek article). The Samsung NETboard computer - another winner, you have to see this one, it is truly awesome. I wouldn't mind collecting it right now. The IBM Aptiva which puts the CPU, CD-ROM and disk drive in a slim console and the hard drive and expansion chassis in a seperate box (I assume connected by a bus cable). Again, this was another industrial design winner. So anyway, this is just my speculation. I think what makes these systems stand out from the rest of the crap you have today is that they are unique or have special features about them that set them apart from the Wintel clones (which is I guess to reiterate they are unique). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 02:24:35 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: free stuff Message-ID: Hope someone can take advantage of some of this: ---#1--- I would like to see my Apple II+ system go to someone who would appreciate it. II+, 64K RAM, keyboard shift mod, 300 baud modem, 1 floppy drive, Taxan amber monochrome monitor, UCSD Pascal, various game software, Softline and SoftTalk magazines. Location: Ventura County, CA Merleen Gholdston -- ---#2--- A friend of mine forwarded this to me, unfortunately I have no cash. :( ------------------------------------------------------------------- * Alan Cruikshank * * HYPERWARE CONSULTING * * e-mail: * * http://freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~cshank * ------------------------------------------------------------------- *** This special offer is from: David M. Dantowitz, If anyone wants a bunch of Apple II computers for Free (shipping from New Jersey) let me know. There's a bunch of II, IIc, and IIe computers, mono chrome and color monitors, extra drives, cables, printer boards, software and other stuff. They're about to be dumped into a dumpster, so if anyone has a desire for the machines and grade school software, let me know. ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- ---#3--- I have about 30-35 servicable Apple IIes that need a home. My school district no longer needs them and I need to get rid of them quickly. If you are interested in more infomation email me or call me at 414-788-7600. John Bestul, Little Chute Area School District. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kevan at motiv.co.uk Mon Jun 2 03:11:12 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: A question... Message-ID: <199706020811.JAA03587@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> I've been given a challenge... and need some help.... Question: Which 80's home computer had an A-Z keyboard layout, and not QWERTY -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Mon Jun 2 09:31:17 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706021431.JAA10598@fudge.uchicago.edu> Sam Ismail said, > An Apple ][ - it's in ratty shape but I got it for $7 with some > periphs. I need to clean it up. This one seems to have auto-start > integer basic ROMs ... Also, it is missing the D8 ROM but seems to > work fine, Integer BASIC and all. Anyone know anything about this? That's normal for an Integer BASIC Apple II, actually. Integer BASIC isn't big enough to require the $Dxxx address space, so those sockets were left empty for add-on ROMs. The chip in the D0 socket is probably the "Programmer's Aid" chip, which contained a collection of subroutines for assembly language programming. > And the cool find of the day: get this, an Epson PX-8 laptop! Neat! Yes, it runs CP/M and has WordStar. Eric From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Mon Jun 2 09:41:05 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: A question... In-Reply-To: <199706020811.JAA03587@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: <199706021441.JAA10669@fudge.uchicago.edu> Kevan Heydon said, > Question: Which 80's home computer had an A-Z keyboard layout, and > not QWERTY The Bally Astrocade did, assuming you count what it had as actually being a keyboard :) Also the TRS-80 Pocket Computer Model 7 has an A-Z keyboard, though I don't know whether you'd want to count pocket models as home computers. eric From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Mon Jun 2 10:08:51 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 01 Jun 1997 23:21:05 PDT." Message-ID: <199706021508.KAA03560@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Sam wrote: >An HP-85 and Commdore Tape Drive (ooh ahh) for $20. The HP85 is pretty >cool. It has a tiny CRT built into the unit (the same size as an Osborne >1's screen). It is about the same dimensions as an Apple ][, but with >the added height to house the screen and a built-in printer (don't know >if it is thermal or ink, all I know is that it is quiet...any help on >this?) It also has a built in BASIC, it seems to be capable of hi-res >graphics, and it has a 5-slot HPIB bus on the back. A very cool >system. Anyway, know anything more about this thing? I'd like to get a >manual and some HPIB cards. Congrats. This is one of my favorites. I got mine free from our Chemistry department (and later got a 9825 from them as well). They have one of the more ecclectic collections of computers I've seen. Anyway, the printer is thermal. You will want to check out the drive belts. They are toothed belts and over time get brittle and may strip. I've stripped the main drive one on mine and the head drive belt looks like it may not last much longer. Also my tape drive has stopped working. I haven't looked into why yet though. I do have manuals and a little bit of expansion stuff, but they're not for sale. I will be glad to look up answers to any questions you might have though and if you're interested, I can try to make a copy of the pocket programming guide. It has all the BASIC commands listed. Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Jun 2 10:31:20 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 1, 97 11:00:11 pm Message-ID: <199706021531.JAA20740@calico.litterbox.com> I ordered a Tiger from Pennys last week. It is available in the spring and summer catalog. My understanding is that they've comitted to 8000 of them a month. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 11:14:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: osborne 1 serial number Message-ID: I finally got a chance to play with my Osborne 1 and must say it is a nice little system. For its time it was a great product. The software is very user-friendly and overall the system runs quite nicely. The disk drives are rather fast. I was making backups of my system disks and it reads almost 5 tracks per second (but writes at about a rate of 5 seconds per track). Hey, my Osborne 1 has serial number A01284. Can anyone beat that? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 11:10:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: EPSON PX-8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > And the cool find of the day: get this, an Epson PX-8 laptop! This is > similar to the Epson HX-20, but is sleeker and better. It has a flip-up > display (looks like 10 lines by 80 columns), a full-size keyboard, and > like the HX-20 has a micro-cassette tape drive for storage. That's > all I know about it so far because I got no manuals and haven't been able > to power it up yet (I need to find the right PS). Allegedly it runs > CP/M. I'll fill you guys in on the details as I figure it out. I think > this is a new find, and needs to be added to the classiccmp list o' > systems. I don't remember it being in there. Am I wrong? At any rate, > this is truly THE FIND OF THE DAY! - $15 OK, I found my HX-20 power supply and fired this sucker up. Talk about neat-o. It indeed does have CP/M in ROM! It also has two 32K ROM drives and a 24K RAM drive. The drives can be configured anyway you like. The current setting is: A: = RAM, B: = ROM1, C: = ROM2. ROM1 has the standard CP/M utilities on it, such as PIP, STAT, etc. ROM2 has WordStar! This unit is capable of hi-res graphics it seems, as when you boot wordstar it comes up with a big MicroPro graphics display. There is a configuration program which allows you to set up the system. You can set the dimensions of two seperate virtual screens. Currently virtual screen 1 is set to 80x24, and virtual screen 2 is set to 80x8, which is the actual dimensions of the LCD flip-up display. You can also set the serial port baud rate (up to 19200!). This unit has several ports on the back, including a Serial port, an RS-232C port (I gleaned from the configuration that one seems to be for a modem while the other for a printer perhaps). It can also hook-up to up to 4 external disk drives. One program on the ROM drive called FILINK allows you to transfer files over the RS232C port, I guess like a laplink (not sure though). This unit seems to be circa 1983 as all the programs have copyrights of that year. This is an entirely cool little system...a CP/M laptop. What a concept. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 11:28:00 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: A question... In-Reply-To: <199706020811.JAA03587@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Kevan Heydon wrote: > > I've been given a challenge... and need some help.... > > Question: Which 80's home computer had an A-Z keyboard layout, and not > QWERTY One that didn't find much of a market base and became obsolete pretty quickly. Let us know when you find out. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 11:34:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: <199706021531.JAA20740@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Jim wrote: > I ordered a Tiger from Pennys last week. It is available in the spring and > summer catalog. My understanding is that they've comitted to 8000 of them > a month. Wow, I'm surprised actually. I didn't think it would ever get off the ground. That's really cool though. I'm going to go out and get mine. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From pcoad at crl.com Mon Jun 2 11:52:00 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970601020634.00a92bc0@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > I responded to a Usenet post regarding some UCSD P-Code stuff. It turned > out the guy had a garage of other stuff that he was trying to get rid of. > > The price? Free. Holy crap! I got an Osborne Executive from the same guy. In fact I saw George there, but didn't know it at the time. Of course the guy had to tell me that had I responded a little earlier, all of the stuff would have been mine. Gak! (Repeat to self several times: must read comp.os.cpm every day.) Atleast it went to a collector and not into a dumpster. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 2 11:59:39 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Switch settings for Seattle Computer Products RAM card? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20508B5EA@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Anybody have the switch settings for the Seattle Computer Products 16K Plus (SCP-16K) S-100 bus RAM card? thanks! Kai From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 2 11:58:25 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Great weekend for old computers! Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20508B5E5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I had a lot of great accomplishments this weekend on the classic computer front! First off, I got two Apple ///+ machines in a thrift store! Anyone have a copy of SOS for these suckers? Regarding my problems with the Apple II+ booting, I found another II+ for $20 and figured it would be easier to replace the whole system unit rather than the RAM (24 x $0.79 for 4116's) at that price. It works! So it wasn't the drives or controller cards causing the problem. I received my two North Star Horizons via UPS (a trade for a couple of TRS-80 Mod 100's and a C128), along with 50-60 diskettes and documentation. Got one of them up and running late last night, but need to find some RAM card docs (see separate mail on that). A friend at work gave me an Amiga 500, I set that up this weekend and played around a bit, that's a fun machine. Kai From pcoad at crl.com Mon Jun 2 12:09:35 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: EPSON PX-8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > OK, I found my HX-20 power supply and fired this sucker up. Talk about > neat-o. It indeed does have CP/M in ROM! It also has two 32K ROM drives > and a 24K RAM drive. The drives can be configured anyway you like. The > current setting is: A: = RAM, B: = ROM1, C: = ROM2. ROM1 has the standard > CP/M utilities on it, such as PIP, STAT, etc. ROM2 has WordStar! This > unit is capable of hi-res graphics it seems, as when you boot wordstar it > comes up with a big MicroPro graphics display. There is a configuration > program which allows you to set up the system. You can set the dimensions > of two seperate virtual screens. Currently virtual screen 1 is set to > 80x24, and virtual screen 2 is set to 80x8, which is the actual dimensions > of the LCD flip-up display. You can also set the serial port baud rate > (up to 19200!). > > This unit has several ports on the back, including a Serial port, an > RS-232C port (I gleaned from the configuration that one seems to be for a > modem while the other for a printer perhaps). It can also hook-up to up > to 4 external disk drives. The other port is for connecting a disk drive. > This is an entirely cool little system...a CP/M laptop. What a concept. > It is a pretty nice machine. You didn't mention the built in micro cassette drive which looks to CP/M just like a floppy (more or less). The tape drive transfers data at 300 baud so it can easily provide hours of fun and enjoyment. On the other hand, the system does know where all of the files are on the tape so it does not have to be manually searched. A dejanews search on Epson and px-8 will provide a good deal of information, make sure to select the "Old" database though. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Jun 2 13:01:47 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Great weekend for old computers! In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20508B5E5@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970602140147.00975870@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, a bunch of people on this list said: >First off, I got two Apple ///+ machines in a thrift store!... yadda, yadda, yadda... [[ Editor's Note: I put this in the beginning so people wouldn't read the first half of the posting and flame the HEdoublehockeysticks out of me... Please read this with the tounge-in-cheek, winkie's throughout attitude with which it was written... tho unforch, it's sadly true....... ;-) ]] You people make me sick! Mr. I got 42 classic systems from one guy this, and Ms. I saw 18 fully loaded computers at the thrift shop that!!! I've had it up to here (imagine a hand held up above the head) with you weasels! Do any of you send your good fortune / good luck my way? NooOOooOOooOOoo! All I've seen the last three weekends of garage saleing is this: A non-functional Atari 5200 game system and 5 games for $5 USD. System worked but neither controller did... until a quick visit with Intern Victorinox to clean the connections... A follow-up visit with Dr. Dremel is in the works, but I've not had time. Altho, the system did come with the trackball controller, and as the SN# of the controller is 000786, I'm wondering if this item is relatively rare... My 7-year-old loves it (as does Dad...) and I feel it will stay in my collection for some time to come... Back to my rant, I finally got up the nerve/time to go visit the Salvation Army Thrift store on my lunch hour (the only T.S. in my town, AFAIK) and guess what the sum total of computer-stuffs I saw there: an HP (I think... no markings) LaserJet drum/toner cartridge. With no price, so they prolly wanted $8million 'cause they didn't know what it was. And I'm sure it wouldn't fit in my HPLJ5L (which BTW I paid full price for 'cause it was the first non-business-owned 5L in town). So, for all you "I get 77 like-new classic systems for a penny every weekend" I have but one thing to say: :-PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP At least the 3rd weekend in June, we'll be travelling 250 miles closer to civilization, and may be able to find some interesting buys there. I'll keep you posted. Also, see my next post. I think almost *everyone* will be happy with me when you read it. See ya, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Jun 2 13:23:06 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Eproms... you want 'em, he's got 'em! In-Reply-To: References: <199705220229.VAA28410@ds9.comland.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970602142306.00920a70@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Sam Ismail said: >On Wed, 21 May 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > >> I have found what seems to be a decent supply of eproms... yadda, yadda, yadda... >This is a great suggestion, worthy of the FAQ. Beware that you don't >cannabalize what could be considered a classic peripheral though. [[ Editor's Note: I've been meaning to respond to this for some time, but the opportunity hadn't come up yet... ]] Right, and I may be able to help you on this one... A few months back, I won a bid (well... there weren't many bids, actually) on AuctionWeb where the person was selling used EPROM lots... 40 to a lot. A lot consisted of 10 each 2716's, 32's, 64's and 128's. Starting bid was $8.00, and he had 20 or more lots for sale. I bid on three, and they never went beyond baseline, so I sent my money, and back they came. Needless to say, I now have a 10-year supply of eproms for myself... Remembering this discussion, I recently contacted him by e-mail and asked him if he had any other e-proms, like 1702's and whatnot. (I don't need those chips, but many of you might.) Here's his directly pasted reply: ======================== reply follows ======================== Hi, Thanks for the e-mail. Yes, we have plenty of the older Eproms like the 1702's and 2708's. Also many other components that may be of interest to your group. We have a web page now (www.mchoward.com) that has all of our current memory pricing. It won't have the things you are looking for, but we can be reached through it. Or you can e-mail me at the office mchoward@prismnet.com or call me on our toll free number 1-800-490-6896. Someone is there M-F 8:30-5:30 CST and SAT 10:00-2:00 CST. We would appreciate any business you can send our way. Thanks, Mel Howard M. C. Howard Electronics, Inc. www.mchoward.com E-mail: mchoward@prismnet.com 1-800-490-6896 512-837-2525 FAX512-837-3246 ========================= end of reply ======================== I have no affiliation with this person other than being a satisfied customer, but from what I've seen he's reasonable on his prices, prompt with shipment, and a very understanding individual as I had to delay payment for a short period due to a family crisis (which is still going on...). I would recommend doing business with him, and I would be interested to learn what other "artifacts" he has available... as you don't find many folks with 1702's in stock, it would seem. Anyway, I hope this gets a few more classic machines working again... Thanks, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From george.lin at documentum.com Mon Jun 2 14:10:45 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970601020634.00a92bc0@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970602121045.00aaa570@lion.documentum.com> At 11:24 PM 6/1/97 -0700, you wrote: ><...> >> accessories including a CP/M cartridge for C64 > >A CP/M _carthridge_? Awesome. I just tried it yesterday. Pretty cool. The Z80 is in the cartridge. The package comes with a CP/M 2.2 diskette for 1541 and a condensed CP/M manual by Commodore (copyright 1983). There is a K-Mart price tag on the original box that reads $54. Not bad. >> o 1 Atari 520ST (dead--for parts), 1 Atari 1040ST, 1 boxed Atari Falcon030, > >What's a Falcon030? It's an Atari ST based on 68030. It has built-in SCSI, AppleTalk, and MIDI interfaces. I have a CD-ROM full of ST stuff--that will keep me busy for days. The GUI seems to be built into the ROM. >> o 1 Vector 4 > >What's that? Vector Graphics Model 4. Unfortunately, the system is dead when I got around to test it--no display and the disk drive just clicks. >> o 2 Apple IIc's, one of them is a rare prototype > >What's the prototype like? I would be totally interested in seeing a >picture of this and hearing more detail about it. It looks much like the production IIc but without all the glamor. For example, the top is smooth, unlike the ribbed vent you find on the production ones. I will be glad to take some digital photos and email them to you, if you are interested. George -- ______________________________ ______________________________ / /\ / /\ / George Lin _/ /\ / Opinions expressed in this _/ /\ / Antique Computer Collector / \/ / message do not necessarily / \/ / http://museum.home.ml.org /\ / reflect my employer's. /\ /_____________________________/ / /_____________________________/ / \_____________________________\/ \_____________________________\/ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ Apple IIe, IIc, Mac 512K, Atari 800, 800XL, 1040ST, Falcon030, VCS, 5200, ColecoVision VGS, Commodore 64, 64C, 128, plus/4, Compaq suitcase PC, Eagle II, Epson HX-20, KayPro II, 4, Nintendo NES, Osborne Executive, TI 99/4A, Timex Sinclair 1000, 1500, TriGem SLT-100, TRS-80 Model I, III, 100, Color Computer 2. From george.lin at documentum.com Mon Jun 2 14:18:21 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970601020634.00a92bc0@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970602121821.00aa4590@lion.documentum.com> At 09:52 AM 6/2/97 -0700, you wrote: >Holy crap! I got an Osborne Executive from the same guy. In fact I >saw George there, but didn't know it at the time. Of course the guy >had to tell me that had I responded a little earlier, all of the stuff >would have been mine. Gak! (Repeat to self several times: must read >comp.os.cpm every day.) Atleast it went to a collector and not into a >dumpster. That was you!? My wife saw you. She told me that some guy carried an Osborne Executive out from the house and she was amazed that people are still interested in these junk. She is actually very supportive in my effort to collect old computers. She drove another car to help me haul the stuff. Both cars were packed to the roof (one of them is a pretty big station wagon). George From frank at 5points.com Mon Jun 2 15:12:34 1997 From: frank at 5points.com (Frank Peseckis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: another weekend tale: northstar, hp, cadr 6 & 7, et al Message-ID: <33981589.323803515@mail.capital.net> This is my first posting to the list. Reading about everyone else's exploits saving old systems, I have to add what I got myself into this past weekend. After responding to a usenet posting about an old computer, I discovered that the poster (who turned out to be a fellow MIT alum three states away, a fact at least tangentially relevant to some of what follows) was about to toss into the local landfill some old stuff he had stored in his basement. A nice guy, he had offered this stuff to everyone he knew, but (incredible as it may seem to this list) he found no takers. Some scheduled home reconstruction required he have the basement empty by June 1. I volunteered to drive the 3 hours one way and pick it up. So, for nothing but my time and the cost of gas, here's what I saved: 1) A Northstar Horizon. Nice condition. With 64k memory and compupro z80 boards. Plus system software (cpm and northstar dos), hard sector 5.25 floppies, and a cardboard box full of docs, including the system manuals, misc s-100 books, and even the documentation for Microsoft's Fortran-80 in its original funky rust colored vinyl binder. If anyone has any s-100 boards they can spare, and would be willing to sell, that could help expand this system beyond the cpu-memory-floppy controller basics it has now, I'd love to hear from them. 2) Two HP-86B's, with cp/m, modem et al cartridges, software for waveform and circuit analysis, plus another box full of docs. Unfortunately, no original external disk drives, so here's another thing I'm looking for, if anyone has them to spare. 3) TRS-80 Model II disk drive system. Has three 8" drives in a single enclosure. Haven't checked it out yet to see if it works. 4) The guts from both the CADR 6 and CADR 7 MIT Lisp Machines from the late '70s. These were the basis for the machines later from Symbolics. Actually, my new found friend decided to keep the steel racks for an as yet to be determined project . This may have been just as well because I had no room to haul the two 6 foot tall cases back to my house. So I had to leave them behind, power supplies still attached. But I got all the internal boards, fans, cables et al from the lisp machines, including the two 5 foot tall back planes and a couple dozen boards measuring about 12" x 18" each. I'm going to try to get the cases too, but I'm not sure I'll be able to. The machines weren't running at the time he got them from someone at MIT. Steel racks or not, I may have just acquired myself a lifelong mission to search for someone who can make these work, since I'm out of my league here. Since this is a list devoted to classic computers, I don't need to go into details about the couple of 386's, monitors, and one or two hardware mutants (would you believe a Tandy-DEC hybrid?) that also got tossed into my Toyota. Altogether an interesting bunch of stuff. Frank Frank Peseckis frank@5points.com http://www.5points.com/ From idavis at comland.com Mon Jun 2 16:40:39 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Eproms... you want 'em, he's got 'em! Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970602214039.0093f59c@mail.comland.com > At 02:23 PM 6/2/97 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: >Mel Howard >M. C. Howard Electronics, Inc. >www.mchoward.com >E-mail: mchoward@prismnet.com >1-800-490-6896 >512-837-2525 >FAX512-837-3246 >I would recommend doing business with him, and I would be interested to >learn what other "artifacts" he has available... as you don't find many >folks with 1702's in stock, it would seem. > >Anyway, I hope this gets a few more classic machines working again... > >Thanks, >"Merch" >-- >Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, >Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should >zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. > I went to the web page, and signed the guestbook. As a total coincidence, I got directions to the place. As it turns out, it is about 2 blocks from where I work. I will go visit the place, and see if he has any kind of "list of stuff", specifically old stuff. After I go visit, I will post a message and let you know what he's got that might be of interest. We know he has eproms, but I'll head over there and see what kind of supply he has. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From pcoad at crl.com Mon Jun 2 17:58:14 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970602121821.00aa4590@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > That was you!? My wife saw you. She told me that some guy carried an > Osborne Executive out from the house and she was amazed that people are > still interested in these junk. She is actually very supportive in my > effort to collect old computers. She drove another car to help me haul the > stuff. Both cars were packed to the roof (one of them is a pretty big > station wagon). > It was me. My wife still thinks I am the only one who collects this kind of junk. She goes along with it because it is not very expensive and she gets to play games on some of the machines. (I think that she has logged more time on our vectrex than I have.) I am running out of space. I don't think I could store 2 carloads of stuff without completely annexing the garage. Where do you put it all? --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 2 18:31:19 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Trackstar 128 (RE: Name those cards game) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20504C12A@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: And to give a little more info... I've maintained a FAQ on the TrackStar for the last four or five years. You can take a peek at it at http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/faqs/ts.faq It doesn't actually have a whole lot to say, but does tell you where to get software and docs if you need them. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw > "Now you can run Apple IIc educational and game software on your Tandy > 1000...with the TRACKSTAR 128 adapter. Imagine having the best of both > worlds in one computer...Supports the use of Apple joysticks or game > port devices such as Muppet Learning Keys. [???]" > $399.95 From george.lin at documentum.com Mon Jun 2 19:16:45 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Some more finds Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970602171645.00a9d120@lion.documentum.com> I have begun to open up the boxes that I got this Saturday and found some more interesting stuff. Boy, this is like Christmas and only better (People don't send me junk as Christmas presents). There is a mint-condition Epson HX-20 stashed in the bottom of a box. It comes complete with the hard case, PS, serial cable, and a set of manuals. The system works but it seems that the battery won't hold a charge. I will probably need to swap out the internal NiCads before it can be a real portable. I found another handheld device named "Trans Term." It's about the size of a HP-71 but thicker. It has a membrane QWERTY keyboard. The LCD can probably display only a few lines at most. It has a DB25 port (probably for a modem) and a power-in jack. There is no other identification or marking. I have not tried to power it up since I don't have the PS. Does anyone know something about it? For many years, I thought Microsoft released Flight Simulator as their only game. I was wrong. I found a game that Microsoft released for TRS-80 Level 1 BASIC named Microsoft Olympic Decathlon. The game is on tape. The manual is copyright 1980. It has the old Microsoft logo on it. George -- ______________________________ ______________________________ / /\ / /\ / George Lin _/ /\ / Opinions expressed in this _/ /\ / Antique Computer Collector / \/ / message do not necessarily / \/ / http://museum.home.ml.org /\ / reflect my employer's. /\ /_____________________________/ / /_____________________________/ / \_____________________________\/ \_____________________________\/ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ Apple IIe, IIc, Mac 512K, Atari 800, 800XL, 1040ST, Falcon030, VCS, 5200, ColecoVision VGS, Commodore 64, 64C, 128, plus/4, Compaq suitcase PC, Eagle II, Epson HX-20, KayPro II, 4, Nintendo NES, Osborne Executive, TI 99/4A, Timex Sinclair 1000, 1500, TriGem SLT-100, TRS-80 Model I, III, 100, Color Computer 2. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 2 19:37:32 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Some more finds Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2050B7B0A@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | From: George Lin[SMTP:george.lin@documentum.com] | For many years, I thought Microsoft released Flight Simulator as their only | game. I was wrong. I found a game that Microsoft released for TRS-80 | Level 1 BASIC named Microsoft Olympic Decathlon. The game is on tape. | The manual is copyright 1980. It has the old Microsoft logo on it. Don't forget Microsoft Adventure, circa 1979, which was coded by Gordon "HPFS" Letwin himself. I still have the poster. Kai From gram at terra.cnct.com Mon Jun 2 19:56:31 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Some more finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970602171645.00a9d120@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > For many years, I thought Microsoft released Flight Simulator as their only > game. I was wrong. I found a game that Microsoft released for TRS-80 > Level 1 BASIC named Microsoft Olympic Decathlon. The game is on tape. The > manual is copyright 1980. It has the old Microsoft logo on it. They also sold a port of the original "Adventure" for a couple of systems. Of course, Microsoft themselves never sold Flight Simulator for the early TRS-80 systems. It was available for the Model One directly from SubLogic before Microsoft ever licensed the concept and name. Never have played any version of Flight Simulator much, or its descendants. Hate airplanes too much -- fixed avionics systems for four years in the USAF (where I saw my first micro -- a guy in my squadron bought an Altair early on and indroduced me to the delights of flipping front panel switches to load paper tape) and realized that "heavier than air" has real meaning: gravity does not forgive. Now, if somebody came out with a Zeppelin Simulator... -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From george.lin at documentum.com Mon Jun 2 20:18:05 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970602121821.00aa4590@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970602181805.00aa6dd0@lion.documentum.com> At 03:58 PM 6/2/97 -0700, you wrote: >I am running out of space. I don't think I could store 2 carloads of >stuff without completely annexing the garage. Where do you put it all? I bring a lot of stuff to my workplace. Some of my co-workers would play Pacman on my Atari 800 (during lunch or after work, that is). Some day, I will talk my employer into donating a room to setup a small museum here. George -- ______________________________ ______________________________ / /\ / /\ / George Lin _/ /\ / Opinions expressed in this _/ /\ / Antique Computer Collector / \/ / message do not necessarily / \/ / http://museum.home.ml.org /\ / reflect my employer's. /\ /_____________________________/ / /_____________________________/ / \_____________________________\/ \_____________________________\/ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ Apple IIe, IIc, Mac 512K, Atari 800, 800XL, 1040ST, Falcon030, VCS, 5200, ColecoVision VGS, Commodore 64, 64C, 128, plus/4, Compaq suitcase PC, Eagle II, Epson HX-20, KayPro II, 4, Nintendo NES, Osborne Executive, TI 99/4A, Timex Sinclair 1000, 1500, TriGem SLT-100, TRS-80 Model I, III, 100, Color Computer 2. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 2 20:45:06 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Wanted: Amiga 500 internal floppy Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2050B7B55@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> This is a bit new for most of this group, but anyone have an internal floppy drive for an Amiga 500? And/or a dead Amiga 500 from which a floppy drive can be scavenged? thanks Kai From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 20:49:35 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Great weekend for old computers! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970602140147.00975870@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > You people make me sick! Mr. I got 42 classic systems from one guy this, > and Ms. I saw 18 fully loaded computers at the thrift shop that!!! I've had > it up to here (imagine a hand held up above the head) with you weasels! Do > any of you send your good fortune / good luck my way? NooOOooOOooOOoo! All > I've seen the last three weekends of garage saleing is this: > > A non-functional Atari 5200 game system and 5 games for $5 USD. System > worked but neither controller did... until a quick visit with Intern > Victorinox to clean the connections... A follow-up visit with Dr. Dremel is > in the works, but I've not had time. > > Altho, the system did come with the trackball controller, and as the SN# of > the controller is 000786, I'm wondering if this item is relatively rare... > > Back to my rant, I finally got up the nerve/time to go visit the Salvation > Army Thrift store on my lunch hour (the only T.S. in my town, AFAIK) and > guess what the sum total of computer-stuffs I saw there: an HP (I think... > no markings) LaserJet drum/toner cartridge. With no price, so they prolly > wanted $8million 'cause they didn't know what it was. And I'm sure it > wouldn't fit in my HPLJ5L (which BTW I paid full price for 'cause it was > the first non-business-owned 5L in town). > > So, for all you "I get 77 like-new classic systems for a penny every > weekend" I have but one thing to say: > :-PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP Merch, I feel your pain. I too went through these same dilemmas. Fortunately my dry spell got rained upon and I am swimming in stuff, but that's besides the point. I guess my point is, move to a big city. That's right. Just pack all your belongings and move to a city with lots of thrift stores and swap meets and flea markets. Then you'll be guaranteed stuff almost every weekend. Do you live in a small town? Where's the next closest big city to you? Here's some suggestions: put an ad out in the local paper: "Wanted: your old useless computers. Will pay $$$" but of course only offer them $5-$10. Go to your local schools and ask them if they have any old junk useless computers they don't want. Contact local businesses and ask if they have any old computers they can't use anymore and offer them a few bucks. Get the word out among friends, associates and colleagues that you collect old computers. You may get some leads that way. Look at it this way, I was reading an old Creative Computing issue today, and it covered all the current systems of the time. It said there were about 3 million TI/99-4a's produced each year that it was in production. There were probably an equal number of VIC-20s, Atari x00's, etc. There were considerable amounts of other systems as well. Millions of Apples of all types, TRS-80s, you name it. These computers are tucked away in the basements, closets and attics of America. The trick is to come up with clever ways to search them out. By advertising or by word of mouth, you're sure to get at least a trickle of people who are willing to free up some space and make a 5 or 10 in the process. The reason we spoiled people get so much is because we live in hi-tech areas. Shit, I'm 40 minutes away from the silicon valley. There's probably a billion old computers tucked away in little nooks and cranny's all over this area. I just gotta find them. Usually when I end up going to someone's place to pick one system up, there's usually a few or 5 or 10 more that he was about to throw out anyway, and they end up becoming mine. One day, I kid you not, between a guy who gave me a bunch of stuff and a thrift store raid, I came home with about 630 pounds of computers. That's right, I weighed it all just to comprehend the magnitude of the feat I had accomplished of getting all that stuff home in one load. Anyway, I don't know how this is supposed to make you feel any better but I think the moral of the story is: PERSIST! Your mother lode will come. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 21:24:06 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > It was me. My wife still thinks I am the only one who collects this kind > of junk. She goes along with it because it is not very expensive and > she gets to play games on some of the machines. (I think that she has > logged more time on our vectrex than I have.) > > I am running out of space. I don't think I could store 2 carloads of > stuff without completely annexing the garage. Where do you put it all? So far my wife has been supportive, but I've had to come up with some pretty clever white lies and quick thinking lately to explain away my occasional ATM withdrawals (we're supposed to be saving money, and its hard to explain to a woman that saving computers transcends the silly concept of saving money). The worst she has done is threatened to get a public storage facility, which I am against because it would only cost more money (money that can be spent saving more computers) and would mean I'd have to go somewhere else to play with my machines. Plus they'd get lonely. I'm having space problems myself. I built a 4 level, 5'x4' shelf but it got used up right away. Now I'm going to build another shelf along another wall in my garage which should tide me over for, oh, maybe a month or two at the rate I'm going. I'm thinking about building a nice storage shed in the back, complete with electrical outlets, workbench and insulation to keep the babies nice and cozy. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 21:27:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Some more finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970602171645.00a9d120@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > For many years, I thought Microsoft released Flight Simulator as their only > game. I was wrong. I found a game that Microsoft released for TRS-80 > Level 1 BASIC named Microsoft Olympic Decathlon. The game is on tape. The > manual is copyright 1980. It has the old Microsoft logo on it. This is one of the first games I remember playing on an Apple ][. I still have this game. It's great but it wreaks havoc on your keyboard (you have to alternately jam on keys in order to run in the running events...very tiresome on the fingers). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 2 22:08:22 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > > > It was me. My wife still thinks I am the only one who collects this kind > > of junk. She goes along with it because it is not very expensive and > > she gets to play games on some of the machines. (I think that she has > > logged more time on our vectrex than I have.) Nope. There have to be more than a few out there. A few months to a year ago I would see stuff at thrift shops and think about whether I wanted it for a week or two before going back for it. Now it's gone the next day. To tell you the truth, I think it's Kai running around with his GPS tracking down 30 thrift stores in a weekend ;) > So far my wife has been supportive, but I've had to come up with some > pretty clever white lies and quick thinking lately to explain away my > occasional ATM withdrawals (we're supposed to be saving money, and its > hard to explain to a woman that saving computers transcends the silly > concept of saving money). I actually put $60 per month into my budget for old computers. I have to because it would be far to easy to spend $200 a month! > The worst she has done is threatened to get a > public storage facility, which I am against because it would only cost > more money (money that can be spent saving more computers) and would mean > I'd have to go somewhere else to play with my machines. Plus they'd get > lonely. I'm having space problems myself. I built a 4 level, 5'x4' > shelf but it got used up right away. Now I'm going to build another > shelf along another wall in my garage which should tide me over for, oh, > maybe a month or two at the rate I'm going. I'm thinking about building > a nice storage shed in the back, complete with electrical outlets, > workbench and insulation to keep the babies nice and cozy. Try this: For the last 8 months I've been living between here in the Seattle area and Central California with no actual place of my own. My computers have been in storage or in my car, or in my parents' garage, friends' closets... What it comes down to is that I haven't really had access to most of my computers for almost a year. I'll actually have my own place again next week and it will have an unused room. A big room. A room where I can hide my social problem from the rest of the world ;). One of my favorite computer stories: A couple years ago I was having a party at my apartment with a bunch of my friends. One of them who had not been over before asked where the bathroom was. I told him back door on the right. A moment later from the back of the hall we hear him yell, "Good God! You're a geek!". Funny enough, but everyone else simultaneously yelled, "Wrong door!" in response. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 22:34:14 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > Try this: For the last 8 months I've been living between here in the > Seattle area and Central California with no actual place of my own. > My computers have been in storage or in my car, or in my parents' > garage, friends' closets... What it comes down to is that I haven't > really had access to most of my computers for almost a year. I'll > actually have my own place again next week and it will have an unused > room. A big room. A room where I can hide my social problem from the > rest of the world ;). I used to have it this way until the wife moved into my house and my life and began dictating what rooms get used for what purposes. Now I have to argue just to keep my computers in my garage. Even proposing silly ideas like building a storage shed gets a cold stare. One day my computers in a very cheezy B-movie-esque fashion will come alive go after my wife for not respecting them. :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon Jun 2 23:10:09 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Epson HX20 Manuals... Message-ID: OK, lately, I have been placed in a sort of dilemna... Since my post on a IIe that I had aquired (where I mentioned also getting HX20 manuals and tapes) I have literally been deluged with e-mails/posts from people asking for MY MANUALS ;) I contacted my aunt (the donater of said items) and learned that she still had the HX20 lying in the basement. ("You want THAT one too?") Since I now have a use for these manuals, here is my best solution to all you manual-less HX owners out there. For the greater good of the horribly addicted old and crappy computer collectors, I will grudgingly go to my nearest copying center and make copies (bound if desired) of my HX manuals available to you for cost. I know this is not the best/cheapest solution but I am trying not to play favorites here; this way everyone can be happy (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) and I can keep my manuals :) Anyone who is interested, feel free to contact me. A NOTE!!! Each manual (there are 2, parts 1 and 2 of course) weighs in at about 250+ pages each so that is something you might want to consider before agreeing to a copy; please don't waste my time, or yours... LeS more@crazy.rutgers.edu From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 23:18:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Epson HX20 Manuals... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > I contacted my aunt (the donater of said items) and learned that she still > had the HX20 lying in the basement. ("You want THAT one too?") Since I > now have a use for these manuals, here is my best solution to all you > manual-less HX owners out there. Congratulations! Another HX-20 resurrected! These things are starting to come out of the woodwork. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jun 3 02:47:19 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706030747.IAA08922@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> In message you write: > > I actually put $60 per month into my budget for old computers. I have > to because it would be far to easy to spend $200 a month! I have tried budgeting, but there is always that special rare machine that becomes available and I have to break the budget. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jun 3 02:51:41 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706030751.IAA08971@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> In message you write: > > The worst she has done is threatened to get a > public storage facility, which I am against because it would only cost > more money (money that can be spent saving more computers) and would mean > I'd have to go somewhere else to play with my machines. I have looked into storage a few times but over here in the UK I have found it too expensive as it all seems geared up to short term leases to store furniture etc. while moving house. > Plus they'd get lonely. :-) -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jun 3 05:36:47 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706031036.LAA12294@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> > I used to have it this way until the wife moved into my house and my life > and began dictating what rooms get used for what purposes. Now I have to > argue just to keep my computers in my garage. Even proposing silly ideas > like building a storage shed gets a cold stare. One day my computers in > a very cheezy B-movie-esque fashion will come alive go after my wife for > not respecting them. :) It does seem that wives/partners are quite understanding of our hobby/ obsession. My wife, Michelle, has her moments of support when she has got me some of the best machines in my collection, and other moments of 'you are not bringing another computer into this house.' The later is usually broken when I bring home a really rare machine and I go on about how good the design was or how bad it was and that it was only sold for a short time. I find that the longer I leave the machine(s) temporarily dumped on the sofa the worse things get, especially if friends come around and there is nowhere to sit :-) We have just finished converting our loft into an office, as the previous office is now used as a nursery for our baby girl. The problem is that even though this new office is bigger I have had to move up all the computers I had hidden around the house into it. You cannot see the carpet anymore :-( (I will have to post a picture I took on my web site so you can play spot the computer.) I have started to trade/swap machines lately, either selling some of my duplicates or trading large machines for smaller ones. Space is becoming so much of an issue that I am thinking I may have to start specialising and re-distribute some of the larger things I have. These are computers I have saved from a skip but never used through my childhood or my working life. Here I am talking about the PDP stuff and maybe CPM machines. (It's funny as a kid I drooled over having a Superbrain with dual Z80s and 64K of memory. I only ever saw pictures of them in adverts and when I got one recently I was a little taken a back with how big they are.) Do other people specialise? Personally I think I would find it hard because I hate to leave computers at boot sales etc. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 3 12:41:03 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <199706031036.LAA12294@mailgate.motiv.co.uk>; from "Kevan Heydon" at Jun 03, 97 11:36 am Message-ID: <199706031141.23911@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > It does seem that wives/partners are quite understanding of our hobby/ > obsession. My wife, Michelle, has her moments of support when she has Yes, I often wonder why my parents (who get to store most of my small collection) put up with it. It must be the only hall in the world to contain 4 minicomputers and a couple of workstations... > got me some of the best machines in my collection, and other moments of > 'you are not bringing another computer into this house.' The later is I get exactly the same reaction. One minute it's 'Why on earth do you want _another_ workstation', the next it's 'I've got you a Tektronix colour terminal that was being thrown out - I assume you want it'. > usually broken when I bring home a really rare machine and I go on about > how good the design was or how bad it was and that it was only sold for > a short time. I find that the longer I leave the machine(s) temporarily > dumped on the sofa the worse things get, especially if friends come > around and there is nowhere to sit :-) Sit? We ran out of places to sit years ago..... > Do other people specialise? Personally I think I would find it hard > because I hate to leave computers at boot sales etc. I tried to specialise - in workstations and minicomputers. But although I can easily resist buying 1980's home micros (most of them are somewhat uninteresting to a hardware hacker, since a lot of the logic is hidden in a ULA), I find it very difficult not to buy unusual micros, prototypes, 1-of-a-kind machines, etc. So the specialisation didn't really work... > > -- > Kevan -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 3 07:26:41 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <199706031036.LAA12294@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Kevan Heydon wrote: > It does seem that wives/partners are quite understanding of our hobby/ > obsession. My wife, Michelle, has her moments of support when she has > got me some of the best machines in my collection, and other moments of > 'you are not bringing another computer into this house.' The later is > usually broken when I bring home a really rare machine and I go on about > how good the design was or how bad it was and that it was only sold for > a short time. I find that the longer I leave the machine(s) temporarily > dumped on the sofa the worse things get, especially if friends come > around and there is nowhere to sit :-) It is due to my fiancee that we have the TI-99 and the Atari ST equipment, the former three (one still in shrink-wrap) because Lisa credits a cassette-based algebra tutorial on her original TI-99/4A with getting her through the maths requirement for her nursing degree, the latter (a 1040 and a 520) because she's musically inclined and we got them for their MIDI features. She's also the one that loves cute little PDA-type devices, so we've got gear from HP, Casio, Sharp, Psion and one or two others to be the classic in a decade or so. All of the Tandy and AT&T and Sun equipment I take full responsibility for, as well as the various non-classic Intel boxes for hacking Linux. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From groberts at mitre.org Tue Jun 3 10:41:54 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603114154.007e3740@mail90> At 12:10 AM 6/3/97 -0400, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > OK, lately, I have been placed in a sort of dilemna... I have literally > been deluged with e-mails/posts from people asking for MY MANUALS ... > I will grudgingly go to my nearest copying center and make > copies .. perhaps it is time for this group to stand up and begin to truly capture the history and documentation of classic computing - and to do it on line. for starters this means capturing manuals which are all too often lost first. next (and more challenging legally) is software. we could use some solid legal advice on what can and can't be posted but i find it hard to believe that anyone could object to putting scanned-in versions of most older manuals on the internet since: 1) many of these companies are no longer in the business, and 2) even if they were they would probably themselves make such a service available or welcome a third party to do it. i think all we really would have to do is make sure the original copyright notification was preserved in the on-line version. i realize system software is a tougher issue but perhaps we could start with the manuals. so we would need a home location (Bill Whitson: how about the "Archives" section of the classic computer web page you've set up? http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html) and some folks with scanners who can get things into HTML format (and others? .doc? .pdf?) and upload. comments on this proposal? are there already similar archives out there? - (i know of some Commodore ones), if so we should point to them. I'm not aware of any one location to go to find classic computer documentation, and judging from the traffic on this list it's sorely needed. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 3 10:41:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <199706030747.IAA08922@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Kevan Heydon wrote: > > In message n.edu>you write: > > > > I actually put $60 per month into my budget for old computers. I have > > to because it would be far to easy to spend $200 a month! > > I have tried budgeting, but there is always that special rare machine > that becomes available and I have to break the budget. This is the kind of hobby where a budget just can't work, because there's always going to be that one machine that you absolutely cannot pass up. And its not like you can just say "Oh I'll wait until next month" because it won't be there next month...it'll be in some other collector's closet. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 3 10:46:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <199706031036.LAA12294@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Kevan Heydon wrote: > I have started to trade/swap machines lately, either selling some of my > duplicates or trading large machines for smaller ones. Space is I've begun to do the same myself. It was an alternative to a budget. I created a "hobby" account which is just a virtual account in Quicken. Any money I make off of selling anything within my hobby I put into the account to go towards future purchases. I started to realize I don't need 4 TI-99/4a's and 5 VIC-20s, etc. Of course, if a find at a swap meet warrants, I can always borrow from another account to cover the purchase until I can sell off other stuff. :) > Do other people specialise? Personally I think I would find it hard > because I hate to leave computers at boot sales etc. I collect whatever I can find that I don't have, but so far my collection is 95% micro's. I guess I haven't been looking in the right places for mini's. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jun 3 11:19:43 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706031619.RAA20686@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> In message you write: > This is the kind of hobby where a budget just can't work, because there's > always going to be that one machine that you absolutely cannot pass up. > And its not like you can just say "Oh I'll wait until next month" because > it won't be there next month...it'll be in some other collector's closet. ... and while it is good that it will have gone to another collector it not quite the same as having the machine yourself and be able to play with it. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From pcoad at crl.com Tue Jun 3 11:14:28 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Trackstar 128 (RE: Name those cards game) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bill, > > And to give a little more info... I've maintained a FAQ on the > TrackStar for the last four or five years. You can take a peek at > it at http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/faqs/ts.faq > > It doesn't actually have a whole lot to say, but does tell you where > to get software and docs if you need them. I found your FAQ while doing a dejanews on TrackStar. The only reason I haven't requested the disk and docs is I'm currently trying to decide if I REALLY want to collect Apple II stuff. There is still has pretty active community and quite a few collectors. As someone has noted recently trying to specialize is difficult, but since time and space are limited I need to be more selective in what I add to my permanent collection. I'll likely offer up these parts my collection up for trade in a month or two. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pcoad at crl.com Tue Jun 3 11:58:00 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: 3B1 free to good home (fwd) Message-ID: Found this in comp.sys.3b1. This is a nice machine, and the price is right if you are in the Los Angeles area. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- AT&T UNIX PC (3B1) 1MB RAM 40MB Hard drive Manuals OS, GNU development tools Good condition. Free to good home. You pick up (Los Angeles area) or pay for shipping. Send e-mail to jim@lutefisk.jetcafe.org. Jim -- Jim Larson jim@lutefisk.jetcafe.org -- end of forwarded message -- From jonathan at holly.ninja.ml.org Tue Jun 3 18:02:54 1997 From: jonathan at holly.ninja.ml.org (Jonathan Hunter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Apple II bits (North-West UK) Message-ID: <2D278BC01BF@holly.ninja.ml.org> Hi! I have a small collection of Apple II bits that I'd like to get rid of. From memory, I have 3 cases (2 with keyboards inside, and one with a motherboard as well), one original cardboard box (with a lovely picture of somebody's hand pointing at the machine!), and 3 or 4 (non-original :-) cardboard boxes full of hardware and software. The hardware mainly consists of unidentified expansion cards and cables, from what I remember. If anybody who is vaguely local to Manchester, UK, wants any of this, they're welcome to it - I am by no means an Apple expert, and this stuff is just taking up space. In most cases I've not even powered it up - it was rescued from the Robotics lab at my old school, when they decided they would throw it all away! I will happily go down and look through the boxes if anybody wants me to have a go at identifying the bits contained therein. Let me know if you are vaguely interested! ___ _ _ ___ _ _| (_)(\)(-) | (-)(-)(\) From pcoad at crl.com Tue Jun 3 12:37:04 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: electronics/junk/computer sale June 14 Mountain View, CA In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970602171645.00a9d120@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On June 14 in Mountain View CA, there will be an junk/electronics sale. The location will be at Haltek (1062 Linda Vista Ave (Shoreline exit off 101)). I believe that this sale will have stuff from 3 different stores. If I remember correctly, things start at 9am and will run until 4pm. (Could someone nearby call (415 969-0510) and confirm these times?) I wanted to let the people on the list know about the sale, and possibly get together with anyone who can make it. Anyone who is interested in the get together let me know. There is a pretty good Mexican place nearby. I'm not associated with Haltek, I just shop there. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue Jun 3 12:44:39 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970603114154.007e3740@mail90> Message-ID: I would agree with this as well, but it WILL be hard to find someone who has the space/time to scan a 500+ page manual... Les From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 3 13:07:56 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2050D3D3E@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Agreed... I have a scanner w/OCR and I'm perfectly willing to scan critical pages such as DIP switch/jumper settings, etc. but 500 pages of general usage instructions is a bit much. Kai > ---------- > From: Mr. Self Destruct[SMTP:more@camlaw.rutgers.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 1997 10:44 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: capturing legacy documentation > > > I would agree with this as well, but it WILL be hard to find someone > who > has the space/time to scan a 500+ page manual... > > Les > > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jun 3 13:46:28 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Computer/Electronics Swap Meet - June 7th, Tigard Oregon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Spring edition of the CP/M-UG Swap Meet will occur on Saturday June 7th, on Rose Festival Parade day just as always. It will be held in the lower level of the Senior Citizens Center on Omera, just south of the Tigard City Hall on Hall Blvd. (off of Hwy. 99) As always, it's Free, Easy, and Non-Fattening! (except perhaps to your wallet or garage, depening on your approach!) Bring your Junk, your Treasures, and your Wallet! The only rule is... Leave Nothing Behind! (NO garbage service!) Address: 8815 S.W. Omera (Just south of Fanno Creek on Hall Blvd.) Tigard, OR. Hours: 0800 to 1400 or whenever the good stuff runs out! (8am to 2pm for the layfolk) Fees: No charge! (we pass the hat for contributions) NOTE: Tailgating is encouraged! Some of the best deals are made in the parking lot! See you there! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jun 3 14:44:30 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970603114154.007e3740@mail90> Message-ID: Hi. This is exactly what the ClassicCmp web/FTP sites are for. The only real reason things haven't appeared there yet is that I'm still in home limbo and don't have the ability to haul out my stuff and start scanning. FYI, my mother is a librarian and specializes in copyright law. What more could I ask for ;). After a few chats with her we've come up with the following criteria for posting old docs/software. 1. The company which marketed the product is out of business and it's assets were not purchased by another company. 2. A contact for the original company cannot be located. 3. The out of production product is no longer sold as a new product. 4. There is no reasonable expectation that posting such materials could affect the profits of an existing entity. 5. There is no reasonable expactation that such materials could be sold for profit. 6. The original source and copyright are noted specifically. Also, there will be a statement that we have not received permission for use but that this use is not for profit and serves only to aid in the preservation of old equipment. There will also be a statement that the materials will be removed immediately at the request of a legitimate representative of the original publisher. Even given all of this, there is still a possibility that I could be sued so I'll be very cautious about what I allow on the site. The likelyhood of legal action is slim and not likely to be successful, but I don't really want to waste time or money going to court. As things currently stand, I will take submissions of software and documentation that meet the above criteria. > so we would need a home location (Bill Whitson: how about the "Archives" > section of the classic computer web page you've set up? > http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html) and some folks with scanners > who can get things into HTML format (and others? .doc? .pdf?) and upload. > comments on this proposal? are there already similar archives out there? - > (i know of some Commodore ones), if so we should point to them. I'm not > aware of any one location to go to find classic computer documentation, and > judging from the traffic on this list it's sorely needed. From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 3 15:08:16 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > 1. The company which marketed the product is out of business and it's > assets were not purchased by another company. > 2. A contact for the original company cannot be located. > 3. The out of production product is no longer sold as a new product. > 4. There is no reasonable expectation that posting such materials > could affect the profits of an existing entity. > 5. There is no reasonable expactation that such materials could be > sold for profit. > 6. The original source and copyright are noted specifically. In the case of the HX-20 manuals, for example, the last time I checked Epson was still corporately breathing. The rights to CP/M at last report were transferred from Novell (purchaser of Digital Research) to Caldera, the Linux company that also has the rights to DR-DOS. The fun part is, all of the _patents_ older than ?1980? have expired -- you can copy any of the hardware you want, as long as it isn't based on copyrighted schematics or contain ROMs with copyrighted code. But copyrights now last at least 75 years (unless our beloved governments extend it still farther, a subject of occasional debate with a crippling effect on the Gutenberg Project. > Also, there will be a statement that we have not received permission for > use but that this use is not for profit and serves only to aid in the > preservation of old equipment. There will also be a statement that the > materials will be removed immediately at the request of a legitimate > representative of the original publisher. With that statement, asses should be adequately covered by the "Fair Use" provisions of the copyright laws provided the other steps have been taken. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jun 3 15:46:25 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In the case of the HX-20 manuals, for example, the last time I checked > Epson was still corporately breathing. The rights to CP/M at last report > were transferred from Novell (purchaser of Digital Research) to Caldera, > the Linux company that also has the rights to DR-DOS. In the case of Epson - an e-mail requesting permission to duplicate such an old manual might be successful. CP/M supposedly will become freely distributable someday when Caldera finds the code or some such silly excuse. (No flames on this please - I pop into comp.os.cpm on occasion). Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 3 15:58:42 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > CP/M supposedly will become freely distributable someday when Caldera > finds the code or some such silly excuse. (No flames on this please - > I pop into comp.os.cpm on occasion). Caldera has announced the attention to make source code for both CP/M and DR-DOS available under terms similar to the FSF Gnu Copyleft in the near future. I await it anxiously. However, that may not apply to the documentation, separately copyrighted. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 3 16:59:29 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at Jun 3, 97 01:46:25 pm Message-ID: <9706032059.AA10528@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 895 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970603/7c8dfede/attachment.ksh From starling at umr.edu Tue Jun 3 16:18:59 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? Message-ID: <199706032118.QAA01634@saucer.cc.umr.edu> I'm going to be moving my collection a couple hundred miles from Austin, TX to Tyler, TX. I'm wondering if anyone has any packing or moving suggestions (packing material, special treatment of media, etc). The stuff is going to be moved by a moving company (Atlas probably) but I'm doing much of the packing ahead of time. I'm seriously considering moving the oddball monitors and magnetic media myself. I don't trust them with these easily harmed things and if they're damaged, they have little or no reimbursement value, but are difficult to find again. Anyone have any magical tips on packing and moving? chris From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jun 3 07:28:20 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Current want list Message-ID: Here is a current want-list in case anyone happens aross any of it or has any of the stuff still stashed away and would like to part with it: 1) Mini-expander for Mattel Aquarius, as well as the data cable for the datasette and any software. 2) Commodore 1531 datasette drive for the C-16 or Plus/4 3) Speech Editor cartridge for the TI-99/4a 4) floppy controller, with or without drive, for a CoCo-3. If anyone knows the pinouts for the data cable for the Aquarius datasette, that'd also be a huge help. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jun 3 07:34:34 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: <199706032118.QAA01634@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On 04-Jun-97, starling@umr.edu wrote: >I'm going to be moving my collection a couple hundred miles from Austin, >TX to Tyler, TX. I'm wondering if anyone has any packing or moving >suggestions (packing material, special treatment of media, etc). >Anyone have any magical tips on packing and moving? Chris, North American moved my collection without any problems a few months ago, but needless to say, I certainly was worried about it. If you're packing things yourself, I'd suggest wrapping stuff in bubblewrap if you can. It seems to do a great job at protecting things, even against the little nicks and such. I tend to wrap it 4-5 times around the part to make a nice bundle, well covered on all sides. It's also how I ship stuff..with the box filled out with the styrofoam 'popcorn'. Jeff -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 3 17:31:14 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: <199706032118.QAA01634@saucer.cc.umr.edu> from "starling@umr.edu" at Jun 3, 97 04:18:59 pm Message-ID: <9706032131.AA05453@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1644 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970603/7e8c9a0e/attachment.ksh From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jun 3 16:55:41 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: <199706032118.QAA01634@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: Call a few shipping places and ask if they have a Sealed Air foam packing machine. I used to work for ElectroRent (a big computer rental company) and they shipped machines all over the world with very little loss using the stuff. I personally had boxes that had been absolutely destroyed during shipping (square box was delivered more or less spherical) and the equipment was just fine. Probably a little pricey, but also probably worth it for the rarer stuff. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 3 17:11:49 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Software For Trade/Want list Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2050E5DA1@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Okay, enough hardware, it's time for a software trade list! Software wanted: - Apple DOS 3.3 - Apricot F2 DOS - Cromemco CP/M on 8" for System 3 - Microsoft Adventure (floppy for TRS-80, Apple II or PC) - Ithaca InterSystems CP/M, any format - TI 99/4a Disk Manager II cartridge - Apple /// Apple II Emulator Diskette - /// EZ Pieces - Anything for Spectravideo SV-3x8 Software for trade (all freely distributable to the best of my knowledge; let me know if you know otherwise): - Atari DOS 2.0a on 5.25" - Atari DOS 2.5 on 5.25" - Kaypro II CP/M, WordStar, FileStar, SpellStar on 5.25" - Kaypro 10 CP/M (can make diskette from HD if needed) - North Star NSDOS 2.0 on 5.25" - Jade CP/M 2.2 on 8" - Computer Chef on 8" - Infocom "Suspended" and "Starcrossed" on 8" (these work on an 8080 just fine) - Osborne CP/M on 5.25" - Macintosh System 1.0 (yes, Apple has posted this) - TRS-80 Model 100 floppy drive support diskette Also, while we're talking diskettes, does anyone have a MicroSolutions CompatiCard or a Copy II Option Board they'd be willing to sell? thanks Kai From Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 3 14:25:32 1997 From: Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk (Pete Robinson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970603114154.007e3740@mail90> Message-ID: In article <3.0.1.32.19970603114154.007e3740@mail90>, Glenn Roberts writes >At 12:10 AM 6/3/97 -0400, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: >> OK, lately, I have been placed in a sort of dilemna... I have literally >> been deluged with e-mails/posts from people asking for MY MANUALS ... >> I will grudgingly go to my nearest copying center and make >> copies .. > >perhaps it is time for this group to stand up and begin to truly capture >the history and documentation of classic computing - and to do it on line. >for starters this means capturing manuals which are all too often lost >first. I've been trying to produce command summaries for the 8-bits on my homepage, including links to other manuals, tech refs etc. I've tried scanning and OCR without much success so it's fairly hard going. I'm new to the collecting scene so there's not much there yet. When I'm out "car-booting" I tend to look for the manuals rather than the systems - (I'm mainly interested in the home micros) - the systems themselves are easy to find, the documentation tends to get lost over the years. >comments on this proposal? are there already similar archives out there? - >(i know of some Commodore ones), if so we should point to them. I'm not where's the commodore site? -- Pete Robinson pete@madhippy.demon.co.uk http://www.madhippy.demon.co.uk - 8-bit, faqs, emulators, links, web utilities. From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 3 17:56:59 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: <199706032118.QAA01634@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997 starling@umr.edu wrote: > I'm going to be moving my collection a couple hundred miles from Austin, > TX to Tyler, TX. I'm wondering if anyone has any packing or moving > suggestions (packing material, special treatment of media, etc). > > The stuff is going to be moved by a moving company (Atlas probably) but > I'm doing much of the packing ahead of time. I'm seriously considering You've already covered one of my suggestions, which is start early. By the time the REAL packing begins, you should be done with all your computer stuff. This is what I did. You might want to just move the monitors yourself on moving day, if the drive is not too far. I am fortunate in that where I work we are always shipping just to and fro, so there was abundant free packing materials abound. I would suggest that you go to the many hi-tech companies in Austin and raid their dumpsters for boxes and foam popcorn. The foam popcorn is the most important stuff. If you're lucky, you'll also find anti-static bags. Try to stick your smaller consoles in the bags, then put some foam on the bottom of a box, put in a unit, fill in some foam around and on top, put in another unit, fill in some foam around and on top, etc. This is what I did, and the best part is it made for permanent storage so that when I moved I didn't need to worry about pulling my systems back out and stacking them until I was good and ready. I just recently started opening boxes and made a big mess of my garage, but for 8 months everything was really organized. I moved everything myself, so when it came time to move the computers I did it all in one load of a pickup, and had the luxury of making sure they were treated right. I say as long as you pack everything in popcorn, you're fine. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From groberts at mitre.org Tue Jun 3 20:14:14 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970603114154.007e3740@mail90> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603211414.00805440@mail90> At 08:25 PM 6/3/97 +0100, you wrote: >>comments on this proposal? are there already similar archives out there? - >>(i know of some Commodore ones), if so we should point to them. I'm not > >where's the commodore site? commodore (and Luxor ABC800) manuals: http://cws86.kotakk.fi/Computers/ also ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/cbm/manuals but there are many more (see FAQ posted at news://comp.sys.cbm) - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From gram at terra.cnct.com Tue Jun 3 21:26:31 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Software For Trade/Want list In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2050E5DA1@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Software wanted: > > - Microsoft Adventure (floppy for TRS-80, Apple II or PC) None of your coworkers has a file copy laying around the office? > Software for trade (all freely distributable to the best of my > knowledge; let me know if you know otherwise): > - Infocom "Suspended" and "Starcrossed" on 8" (these work on an 8080 > just fine) We serious Infocom fanatics learned long ago that the main program was a constant on any given platform -- and that that the datafiles worked on _any_ platform if properly transferred. My Tandy 2000 Planetfall and HHGttG datafiles worked fine on my Color Computer. I'm not making fun. (well, you're an MS guy and you're looking for an ancient MS product, I guess I am a little bit.) The key items with those Infocom products are the core program for the platform and _ALL OF THE LITTLE "CLUES" IN THE ORIGINAL PACKAGING_! That stuff I suspect is hen's teeth. Possibly eventually the biggest collectable in the software end, equivalent to early copies of Monopoly and some Milton-Bradley games. (Oh, and all of the Infocom datafiles work just fine with the Linux free core as well.) (And there's a driver for Scott Adams (_NOT_ the guy who does Dilbert) Adventures also.) -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at terra.cnct.com Tue Jun 3 21:37:01 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Try to stick your smaller consoles in the bags, then put some foam on the > bottom of a box, put in a unit, fill in some foam around and on top, put > in another unit, fill in some foam around and on top, etc. This is what > I did, and the best part is it made for permanent storage so that when I > moved I didn't need to worry about pulling my systems back out and > stacking them until I was good and ready. I just recently started > opening boxes and made a big mess of my garage, but for 8 months > everything was really organized. For the love of God, Montressor, _don't forget to label the boxes!_ And I do mean a _full catalog_. As a bibliophile who has moved books in large quantities on several occasions (and Ben Franklin had it right: three moves equals one fire) I know that it can be a hassle when you _really need_ just that one item, and it's in one of the boxes filling _that half_ of the room. All the same size, color, label (front room). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From BigLouS at aol.com Tue Jun 3 22:09:48 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Great weekend for old computers! Message-ID: <970603230921_-161793711@emout18.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-02 13:26:32 EDT, kaikal@MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) writes: > First off, I got two Apple ///+ machines in a thrift store! Anyone have > a copy of SOS for these suckers? If no one has a copy try http://www.allelec.com. They have it with II emulation for $7.95. However their minimum order is $25.00. Lots of Apple and mac stuff available though. Lou From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Jun 3 23:48:16 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer Message-ID: <199706040448.WAA30429@calico.litterbox.com> -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Jun 3 23:54:39 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer Message-ID: <199706040454.WAA30483@calico.litterbox.com> Okay, let's see if I can include the file this time. Sheesh. :) Ok, this isn't exactly a classic computer. It's more the rebirth of a classic in a slick new case (looks like a laptop, but isn't) with a slick new desktop. If you don't think it's appropriate here, I won't be upset if you hit delete. :) I got my Tiger Learning Computer (hereafter TLC) from Pennys today. The outside box was smashed beyond all recognition, but the inner box, which only touched the outer one in two spots, was intact, and the computer undamaged. Inside the inner box was the actual retail box, with the pictures on it, the "Apple Technology" symbol on it and so on. It's an eerie feeling opening a brand new computer in retail packaging like that. I haven't done it since I got my Commodore 64, after weeks of waiting for it on backorder at LaBells (aka Best, now extinct) we picked one up at KMart. You C=64 collectors probably experience this all the time, opening a box to find *a computer* inside, ready to plug into the TV and compute. For me, it'd been 13 years. So what does $179 bucks plus shipping (box smashing was, presumably, free) get in 1997? Well, you get a solid feeling little computer that feels remarkably like an early power-book in your hands. You get the "wall wart" power supply. You get 6 cartridges, one of which is your battery-ram "disk", another of which has appleworks 4.3 on it. The rest each have a switch and two applications. They plug (upside down) into slots on either side of the machine. But I'm ahead of myself here. Hookup. Pretty much plug and play, although I did get a chuckle when I noticed that this computer has no RF modulator. Now that everyone owns a VCR with video IN jacks, it's not necessary anymore. So, white wire to audio in, yellow wire to video in, power, flip the VCR input to line in, hit the switch. And smile to myself as it boots up in prodos. Just for a second before the desktop and sound effects load. First annoying thing: The voice that says "Please select an activity" every time you boot. I'm finding I boot a lot. I can tell this is going to irritate me in the long term. I'm not enough of an Apple 2 wizard to know what video mode it came up in. It looks like about 16 colors, and about the resolution of CGA. Not as fine as my old '64 was capable of, but much faster. Using the thing. Ok, I've owned it for about 4 hours now and I have a horrible crick in my neck from lying on the living room floor looking up at the TV, so I haven't even tried all the apps yet. If anyone's interested, let me know, I'll follow up. Loading programs is almost exactly like running them off a floppy, except that you can never boot from the program disk. You have to go to the disk icon on the desktop and tell the tiger to run the program. Not very intuitive, but I'm sure kids will figure it out as fast or faster than I did. Especially if they read the instructions. :) I just expected them to load automatically. My bet is in the next ROM version of the tiger they will. Appleworks 4.3 looks remarkably like it did on my friend's 2E all those years ago, except of course that it's not as sharp on my TV as it was on his apple monitor. I suspect a newer TV directly connected instead of through the VCR would perform better. That failing an old Commodore 1782 monitor should be something to see. Wish I hadn't given mine away. My nostalgia for Apple2 is limited here, like I said, I was a commodore 64 geek. WE didn't have to have disks to boot. (In fact, for the first 3 months I had my 64, I had no storage device at all, so my first programs were short, enjoyed to the point of boredom, and then utterly lost when the computer was powered off.) On the other hand, the odds of the '64 making a comeback like this are slim and none. They never had the educational following. So all in all, it's been a weird experience for me with this little computer. Objectively, it's not a bad little machine at all. The keyboard bites - although it may get better as it gets used/my hands adapt back from Microsoft wave keyboard. The sound is first class - even better than my '64s old SID chip. Graphics are about as good as can be expected on an 8 bit apple 2, except in color. Software is still a little weird - nothing beyond what it came with. Of course, if I can get my hands on a copy of "Kermit, a file transfer protocol" and type in the 83 line basic Kermit so I can communicate with the rest of my systems, I hopefully will be able to run all kinds of a2 software on it. The weird part isn't objective though. Part of me is rejoicing at the idea of this little throwback to the early 80s. I got a little piece of the excitement I had unpacking my 64 the first time unpacking the Tiger. And seeing it abuse my TV into pretending to be a computer monitor, even though it is a little fuzzy, made me smile. This, for me is how computing was. Part of me sits and scoffs at the tiger - and my '64 for that matter - when in the next room I have a lan full of reasonably modern PCs with orders of magnitude more power. Even my quasi-classic GS is head and shoulders above the tiger as a computer. But the tiger has something none of my other machines do. I'm not sure what, to be honest, maybe just nostalgia, maybe not. Anyway, I'm keeping it. Even if I do keep expecting the flip top to have a screen in it. (at least it comes off. :) -Jim -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 4 00:02:45 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: osborne 1 serial number In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603220245.00707740@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:14 AM 6/2/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Hey, my Osborne 1 has serial number A01284. Can anyone beat that? Sigh... You got me beat. Mine shows A19341. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 4 00:16:43 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > For the love of God, Montressor, _don't forget to label the boxes!_ And I > do mean a _full catalog_. As a bibliophile who has moved books in large Right! I almost forgot. On each box I listed the contents. Like: Apple //e Commodore 64 TI 99/4a etc. On a scarcely related note, has anyone ever seen (or does anyone have) a TI-99/4 (no "a")? I was reading an old issue of Creative Computing and they mentioned the 99/4 in an article about the 4a. They also mentioned a system called the 99/8 (I think it was that) that was built but never released because TI decided to get out of the home computer market. It was a great article about the price wars between TI and Commodore. It talked about how the TI 99/4a started at $1395 and eventually wound its way down to $49 over the course of 2 years in competition with the VIC-20. I'm amazed the 99/4a still has such a following. It was like the Hyundai of the 80s home computer market. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 4 00:23:07 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: <199706040454.WAA30483@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Jim wrote: > The weird part isn't objective though. Part of me is rejoicing at the idea of > this little throwback to the early 80s. I got a little piece of the excitement > I had unpacking my 64 the first time unpacking the Tiger. And seeing it abuse > my TV into pretending to be a computer monitor, even though it is a little > fuzzy, made me smile. This, for me is how computing was. Part of me sits and > scoffs at the tiger - and my '64 for that matter - when in the next room I have > a lan full of reasonably modern PCs with orders of magnitude more power. Even > my quasi-classic GS is head and shoulders above the tiger as a computer. But > the tiger has something none of my other machines do. I'm not sure what, to > be honest, maybe just nostalgia, maybe not. I think its the fact that it has two slots and carthridges, which no apple ever had. The apple was not a carthridge machine, it was a slot machine (er, not Las Vegas style). > Anyway, I'm keeping it. Even if I do keep expecting the flip top to have a > screen in it. (at least it comes off. :) Thanks for a good article. I can't wait to get mine. And just think, you don't have to wait 10 years for it to become a classic. Since its based on the Apple //e, its kinda already a classic. Its a paradox or something. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Wed Jun 4 03:08:57 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:43 2005 Subject: Packing Computers Message-ID: <33952299.6E35@oboe.calpoly.edu> I have been shipping computers for a while now with no problem whatsoever. I follow the guidelines already mentioned with a couple twists: Wrap the items in bubble wrap (best) or a plastic bag, anti-static is best. This protects the surfaces and stops the styrofoam from being in direct contact with the plastic on the machine. Keeps foam from getting into the slots, etc. I also notice that the plastic in the cords especially tend to bond with the foam after a while. Popcorn in the bottom. Put the system in. Popcorn on sides and on top. Allow for settling, compress it until it's firm. Seal it up. If putting items on top of each other I'd put a piece of cardboard in between along with a few inches of popcorn just in case things move. This is for shipping. I've shipped lots of stuff packed in a single box without a single casualty. Moving a short distance shouldn't be as much of a big deal but if someone drops a box, you'll be glad you did it. I didn't have any casualties when I moved last year either. I get packing material from a couple sources. A camera shop here gets about 5 big bags a month since all their stuff is fragile. A manufacturer has a big cardboard recycling area where they dump boxes and bubblewrap. If someone is near Mountain View, CA (near where I used to live), I have a great source for tons of this stuff. Email me. Greg PS: I have an Apple IIc & IIe on Auctionweb that are going cheap so far. The IIc is only at $3.25! Even cheap compared to you guy's standards. Shipping is extra though (UPS). Auction ends tomorrow. Apple IIC Computer (photo) Current bid: $3.25 Auction ends on: 06/04/97, 22:48:02 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=znb774144 Apple IIe Computer, Duo Drive, 64K (photo) Current bid: $20.50 Auction ends on: 06/04/97, 22:54:32 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=cjt6509 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 4 08:06:49 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 3, 97 10:23:07 pm Message-ID: <9706041206.AA08482@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 684 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970604/673e060c/attachment.ksh From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 4 08:42:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: <9706041206.AA08482@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > You guys will have to let me step in here and express a few > questions which demonstrate my ignorance of the Tiger Learning > Computer and its attraction: > > 1. Am I correct in assuming that it is impossible to run software > on the Tiger unless it comes in the form of a manufacturer > supplied cartridge? > > 2. Am I correct in assuming that there is no cartridge with Integer > or Applesoft Basic? > > Don't #1 and #2 above pretty much limit the user to running an > incredibly tiny set of software? If so, then isn't the Tiger > little more than a incredibly stunted and dead-ended version of > the Apple II architecture? Sorry folks, maybe the Tiger just > isn't for me... Until someone (me) figures out how to attach a disk drive to it. Will you buy one then? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 4 09:37:40 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On a scarcely related note, has anyone ever seen (or does anyone have) a > TI-99/4 (no "a")? I was reading an old issue of Creative Computing and I played with one briefly at a computer store in Las Vegas back about 1980. As I recall, it has little rectangular chicklet keys. When I typed in a simple loop to count and display the numbers from one to one hundred and I was able to get there first by counting out loud I gave up on the machine and never looked at one again until I moved in with a TI-99/5A fan five years ago -- and I still don't look at them much, they're Lisa's machines. > they mentioned the 99/4 in an article about the 4a. They also mentioned > a system called the 99/8 (I think it was that) that was built but never There's a description and some pictures of the 99/8 on: > released because TI decided to get out of the home computer market. It TI didn't exactly "decide" to do this. There's a semi-accurate article in the current (June '97) Computer Shopper on the history of the TI-99. I have my own memories of what effect had on the stock prices of companies in the small computer business back when the word got out that TI was losing money on every machine sold hoping to make up the difference in overpriced peripherals (which of course, third parties were able to provide cheaper). > was a great article about the price wars between TI and Commodore. It > talked about how the TI 99/4a started at $1395 and eventually wound its > way down to $49 over the course of 2 years in competition with the > VIC-20. I'm amazed the 99/4a still has such a following. It was like > the Hyundai of the 80s home computer market. That last year or so, it was more like the Yugo. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jun 4 10:14:29 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 4, 97 06:42:58 am Message-ID: <199706041514.JAA32707@calico.litterbox.com> Actually the tiger has a ram based storage cartrige which connects up just like a regular prodos volume. You could store whatever programs you want on it. Also teh Tiger does speak Applesoft basic. They even mention this in the instructions. I called Tiger this morning, and they tell me the "Internet Cartrige" won't be available until the end of summer, and that Delphi will be the provider it's designed for. I'm going to go out on a limb and hope that the Internet Cartrige will have some means of transfering programs into the Tiger as well. Also, as I said, I intend to set my Tiger up with Kermit and do serial downloads. While I was talking to Tiger this morning, I also asked if there was a software developer's kit for it. The rep didn't seem to know what I was talking about, so I'll have to write some e-mail to the company. My pessamistic suspicion is that Tiger won't support any development but their own (which they license from classic A2 companies). I hope I'm wrong here, as I'd love to see both the surviving a2 community doing new development for the Tiger as well as the tiger stuff - especially the internet package - find it's way back to the apple2 world. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Wed Jun 4 10:33:57 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706041533.KAA22535@fudge.uchicago.edu> Sam Ismail said, > On a scarcely related note, has anyone ever seen (or does anyone have) a > TI-99/4 (no "a")? I was reading an old issue of Creative Computing and > they mentioned the 99/4 in an article about the 4a. I saw (and used for a few minutes) one of these, years and years ago (1984?) at a meeting of the TI Hoosier Users Group in Indianapolis. The main differences from the 99/4A were: * chicklet keys, and no lowercase -- the punctuation marks and cursor motions that you get with the FCTN key on a 4A were produced with the Shift key instead. * older video chip -- the TMS9918 instead of 18A. I think the difference here was that it didn't have the 256x192 bitmap mode, only the character-cell modes. * monitor required. Market pressures were part of the reason the TI price dropped so much, but the major reason was that TI couldn't get FCC approval for an RF modulator in time for the release of the 99/4 so you had to buy it with a monitor. They were approved by the time of the 99/4a so you could use it with your TV and get by with a much cheaper system. I think the Peripheral Expansion Box also came out at the time of the 99/4A, ending the need to string endless piles of boxes off the side of the keyboard if you wanted the disk drive, speech synthesizer, or whatever. > They also mentioned a system called the 99/8 (I think it was that) > that was built but never released because TI decided to get out of > the home computer market. There was also a TI-99/2, with rubber keys and black-and-white video, meant to compete with the Timex/Sinclair segment of the market. It never got released because the prices of the higher-end machines plummeted and squeezed it out of its price range. eric From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 4 10:40:19 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > You guys will have to let me step in here and express a few > > questions which demonstrate my ignorance of the Tiger Learning > > Computer and its attraction: > > > > 1. Am I correct in assuming that it is impossible to run software > > on the Tiger unless it comes in the form of a manufacturer > > supplied cartridge? > > > > 2. Am I correct in assuming that there is no cartridge with Integer > > or Applesoft Basic? > > > > Don't #1 and #2 above pretty much limit the user to running an > > incredibly tiny set of software? If so, then isn't the Tiger > > little more than a incredibly stunted and dead-ended version of > > the Apple II architecture? Sorry folks, maybe the Tiger just > > isn't for me... > > Until someone (me) figures out how to attach a disk drive to it. Will > you buy one then? Actually, after pondering this a bit, I take this answer back and submit the following: Why? Because it's the first new Apple ][ based product since the late 80's. It's based on the stuff of legends...I'm sure somewhere inside it has traces of Woz. It wasn't meant to be useful as an Apple ][. It's meant to be a toy for kids to learn about computers on. This could be any old toy with any old CPU like the many that are out there, but it's not. It's based on an Apple //e and, if you *can* get the programs on it, will run any apple // software. For something that's meant as a toy, that's pretty cool. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 4 11:13:36 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Why? Because it's the first new Apple ][ based product since the late > 80's. It's based on the stuff of legends...I'm sure somewhere inside it > has traces of Woz. It wasn't meant to be useful as an Apple ][. It's > meant to be a toy for kids to learn about computers on. This could be > any old toy with any old CPU like the many that are out there, but it's > not. It's based on an Apple //e and, if you *can* get the programs on > it, will run any apple // software. For something that's meant as a toy, > that's pretty cool. So I guess this means I'll have to figure out a way to stuff LDOS into a ROM and do the same trick with a TRS-80 clone. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 4 12:11:52 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 4, 97 08:40:19 am Message-ID: <9706041611.AA10495@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1220 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970604/ae00c663/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jun 4 11:21:16 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 4, 97 08:40:19 am Message-ID: <199706041621.KAA00258@calico.litterbox.com> Since my previous message appears to have wound up in the bit bucket, I'll say again. 1. the Tiger does speak Applesoft basic 2. I expect the internet cartrige to have some means of downloading software. 3. Once I get Kermit working on the Tiger I expect to be able to load apple2 software on the tiger at will, space on the ram cartridge permitting. 4. According to Tiger there's no software development kit. I have to dig deeper for this. 5. I have a fairly slick assembler in applesoft basic I'll have to try on the tiger. Is that programmable enough? :) -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 4 12:18:03 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: <199706041621.KAA00258@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim" at Jun 4, 97 10:21:16 am Message-ID: <9706041618.AA25832@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 280 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970604/0a7282e8/attachment.ksh From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 4 11:33:34 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: <9706041611.AA10495@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > But for a fraction of the cost of the "toy" version, anyone can get > a real Apple ][+ or //e, with expansion slots, drives, etc. I'd much > rather give my kids a machine that is readily expanded and hacked on. > Wasn't this the appeal of the Apple ][ in the first place? It was, > at least for me. I suppose there was a large fraction of people who > never did anything other than run "canned" software on their Apple, > and I suppose for them the expandibility and accesibility didn't > mean much. The Tiger might suit their desires just fine, but the > Tiger just isn't for me. But it's not meant to suit you, Tim, for the reasons you mention above. You're a hacker, and you came from the Apple world. You know what a real apple can do and you're comparing the TLC to an Apple. You have to look at it from the perspective that it is a kids toy that also happens to use Apple software. Think about it. You go into your local Walmart or Target and head over to the toy section. There you see a bunch of electronic gizmo toys for kids, some of them being mock computers with LCD displays that have menus for the different programs you can run. Then right next to them is a toy laptop that boots ProDOS. Pretty cool. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From smj at U.Arizona.EDU Wed Jun 4 15:47:02 1997 From: smj at U.Arizona.EDU (Susan M Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Packing Computers In-Reply-To: <33952299.6E35@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: Absolutely, positively do NOT pack a computer in peanuts without first putting the computer in something like a plastic garbage bag! I've got a used one I bought which was shippped to me packed in peanuts - no plastic bag (sigh). It took awhile but I finally got all the peanuts out of the computer and then out of the floppy drive. Now all I need to do is re-align the drive and hope the drive will then work. For lack of anything else, I once used some insulation material (steel wool stuff, I think). Put the computer or printer first in a plastic garbage bag, then wrap with the insulation. It worked just fine. Not the best stuff in the world to use, I would think, due to the minute fibers in the insulation, but better than nothing. Susan From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 10:03:06 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On a scarcely related note, has anyone ever seen (or does anyone have) a > TI-99/4 (no "a")? I haven't seen one, but I've heard a lot about it. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find one single picture of the thing on-line. :-( > They also mentioned a system called the 99/8 (I think it was that) that > was built but never released because TI decided to get out of the home > computer market. Yup, seen photos of this beast. It could take up to 15 MB of RAM and had built-in hardware to run P-code. The Machine Room has entries for both the TI-99/4 and TI-99/8 (although the /4 has no picture). The URL is: http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~alexios/MACHINE-ROOM/ Rich Polivka's WWW page has information on both of these machines (I based the TI-99/8 Machine Room entry on his respective page): http://w3.gwis.com/~polivka/994apg.html --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 4 21:12:17 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Packing Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Susan M Johnson wrote: > For lack of anything else, I once used some insulation material (steel > wool stuff, I think). Put the computer or printer first in a plastic I _assume_ you mean fiberglass wool. Steel wool has an insulation R-factor that is real close to zero, I suspect. (Hey, I'm not a professional in that line, but I have installed a few square yards of the pink stuff in my time.) -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From transit at primenet.com Wed Jun 4 21:57:13 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > On a scarcely related note, has anyone ever seen (or does anyone have) a > > TI-99/4 (no "a")? > > I haven't seen one, but I've heard a lot about it. Unfortunately, I can't > seem to find one single picture of the thing on-line. :-( Back around 1982, the local computer store in my town was trying to unload one of these (complete with monitor, disk drive and most of the cartridges) for about $1000. (I already had a TI 99/4A, but with no peripherals, except for the modulator and cassette recorder). Those extras would have been nice, but, as an unprosperous high school student at the time, not forthcoming . . . > From transit at primenet.com Wed Jun 4 21:58:14 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Packing Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Susan M Johnson wrote: > > > For lack of anything else, I once used some insulation material (steel > > wool stuff, I think). Put the computer or printer first in a plastic > > I _assume_ you mean fiberglass wool. Steel wool has an insulation > R-factor that is real close to zero, I suspect. Steel wool also conducts electricity--it would be bad news if any of it happened to get inside any electrical equipment. > From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 4 22:00:31 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: MACHINE ROOM Message-ID: Oh yeah, it's at http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~alexios/MACHINE-ROOM Go there now! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 4 21:59:48 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Alexios' MACHINE ROOM Message-ID: I just visited Alexios Chouchoulas' MACHINE ROOM web page and it is downright cool. There is a lot of good information there, and the database is pretty complete as far as micro's go. Check it out. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 4 22:33:56 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Packing Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > Steel wool also conducts electricity--it would be bad news if any of it > happened to get inside any electrical equipment. Yeah, that too. But I don't even want fibers of pink stuff abrading the (now hard to replace) heads of my 8" floppy drives. Or even the (remember these) head load pads. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From foxnhare at goldrush.com Thu Jun 5 00:08:04 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Storage and specialization References: <199706040702.AAA11041@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <339649B5.13D0@goldrush.com> I've had a storage unit for years now (PETs take up wayyy too much room in an apartment, not to mention YEARS of COMPUTE!, Commodore, Ahoy, RUN, Etc.) The big pain about the storage unit is having to dig through the layers of goodies to find what you are getting at. Or even worse knowing you have a tidbit on some subject in you think one of X magazines, and you would have to dig through issues and issues (not at home) to find it. I specialize in my collecting, Commodore 8-bits and just recently Atari 8-Bits. I would have to move to even think of another brand. :/ Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jun 5 11:22:14 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Hello folks Message-ID: <199706051631.LAA26364@challenge.sunflower.com> Hello everyone, Glad to be here. Im in Lawrence KS, an NT administrator for the Dept of Labor and have the following machines. Timex/Sinclair1500 "" 2050 Modem Tandy Color/2 Trs80 Model 4, 128k Trs80 Model 4, 64K Apple /// Profile HD Apple //gs 100meg scsi drive Apple//e Apple//c Apple][+ Apple Macintosh SE Apple Macintosh Se/30 Atari 400 Atari 800XL 1050 FDD Atari 1200Xl 1050 FDD Commodore 64 1541 FDD (2) IBM PC, [dual floppy} Anything I can help with please let me know and visit my web page on my home server. http:\\24.124.36.31 Bill G. Aka. TheDM From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jun 5 14:51:58 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 13:54:10 -0700 (PDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Bill Whitson > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: The List! Bill: Here are some long-forgotten 680x classics form the late '70's and early 80's. I got this info from a bulletin published by a dealer in 1980: ================================================================== MANUFACTURER MODEL CPU RAM OS TYPE YR ================================================================== Smoke Signal Broadcasting----------------------------------------- Chieftain 511 6800 32k SSB DOS/FLEX Micro 79 512 521 522 (all 500 series machines used 5" floppies) Chieftain 811 6800 32k DOS86/FLEX Micro 78 812 821 822 (all 800 series machines used 8" floppies) Chieftain 9811 6809 40k DOS69/FLEX/OS-9 Micro 80 9812 9821 9822 (all 9800 Series machines used 8" drives) Chieftain 9511 6809 40k DOS69/FLEX/OS-9 Micro 80 9512 9521 9522 (all 9500 series machines used 5" drives) These are all SS-50 based systems. The last two digits of the model number merely indicate the number of sides per drive, and the density, respectively. I myself own the equivalent of a Chieftain 9522 - 5.25" DS/DD drives. It is all SSB electronics in a SwTPc cabinet! Their later systems had a MUCH more complicated numbering system; I'll give it to you when I locate the table! Things got pretty hairy when they started selling 8" and 5" Winchesters, as well as streaming tapes! These systems mostly ran OS-9. Later. Jeff Kaneko From radaranalysis at faatcrl.tc.faa.gov Thu Jun 5 16:51:25 1997 From: radaranalysis at faatcrl.tc.faa.gov (Radar Analysis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: TI Prolite portable computer Message-ID: <01BC71D9.177C5F40@JOHNNYG> Help! My neighbor got a free computer, the Prolite from TI. Appears to be an early portable/luggable because it has a huge (at least 16" x 7" and 10lbs) battery pack, a 3.5 inch drive, a LCD display. What the heck is it? Does it run DOS and/or is it from the 80xx family? Thanks in advance From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jun 5 20:22:27 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul References: Message-ID: <33976653.6106@unix.aardvarkol.com> I just got what I think is a pretty good deal. I went out to pick up some dry cleaning today, and decided to drop into one of the area thrift stores, which is right next door. In it I found a Coleco Adam, Adam printer, keyboard, two game controllers, and the holder that attaches to the keyboard to hold one controller. Total for all of the above ended up being $14. It needs some cleaning up, but looks to be complete. Now I could kick myself for passing up the adapter for using Atari 2600 with it which I saw at a flea market this last weekend. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, and Model IV. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From groberts at mitre.org Thu Jun 5 20:05:14 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: pdp 11/34 headed for landfill Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970605210514.007f29a0@mail90> fyi, posted on comp.os.cpm ... - glenn A friend in a bit of a time bind will probably be sending a PDP 11/34 to the landfill very soon. If you want it, and probably a half dozen other assorted racks of minicomputers plus hundreds of reels of 1/2" tape, but NO S-100 stuff (you can probably guess who got THAT!) e-mail immediately....... stuff is located in Tucson, very close to I-10 sorry, no one available to pack it, but Amtrak does stop here....... and they shi[p stuff pretty cheap...... bill_h@azstarnet.com From bcoakley at teleport.com Thu Jun 5 22:18:55 1997 From: bcoakley at teleport.com (Ben Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: TI Prolite portable computer In-Reply-To: <01BC71D9.177C5F40@JOHNNYG> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, Radar Analysis wrote: > Help! My neighbor got a free computer, the Prolite from TI. It's an 8088. It seems to have shipped with MS-DOS 2. I have a complete set of manuals to it, so if you have specific questions, feel free to ask. HTH, -- Ben Coakley bcoakley@teleport.com http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 6 01:52:09 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Misc. References: <3.0.1.32.19970605210514.007f29a0@mail90> Message-ID: <3397B399.6A7D@rain.org> Hi, I just found out about this listserver when a post was made to comp.os.cpm telling about it. Since I have been looking for a while for this type of group, I am very much looking forward to participating. I have lost track of how many computers I have but my best guess is somewhere around 300. I've been collecting for about 10 years or so and I am still adding computers at the rate of about one per month. As a confirmed scrounger, I was lucky enough to run into a couple of things some people here might find useful (not for sale, but for info only if I can help.) Santa Barbara is where both the Lobo Drives Max80 and the Polymorphic computers were made. I have a friend who had a friend who was storing the remains of the Polymorphic documentation, parts, etc. My friend acquired it and I now have it. Basically there are EPROMs, masters of the printed documentation, engineering drawings, so if anyone out there needs info, I may be able to provide it. Also, a local company was a distributor for Vector Graphic Computers and software. I found out they were getting rid of all the documentation, etc. into a dumpster two days after the event. They gave me permission to scrounge their dumpster ... and I did! I have what I *think* is most of the hardware documentation for the Vector Graphic Computers model 3, MZ, and Vector 4. Some of you may remember Pickles & Trout from CP/M days. They also were a Santa Barbara company and a friend of mine was one of the co-founders. I am not familiar with most of what they did, but he would most likely be willing to answer question about their products (this is me volunteering him, not him!) I am always looking for documentation for some of the computers I have. One is a Jonos, and I have no other information and I would like to know a bit more about it. Another is a a neat portable (probably non-working) with nothing but the word "Chisholm" on it. It looks like a prototype judging by the number of mods to the circuit board. Any info would be much appreciated. From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 6 02:36:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: <3397B399.6A7D@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Hi, I just found out about this listserver when a post was made to > comp.os.cpm telling about it. Since I have been looking for a while for > this type of group, I am very much looking forward to participating. I > have lost track of how many computers I have but my best guess is > somewhere around 300. I've been collecting for about 10 years or so and > I am still adding computers at the rate of about one per month. As a Ok, you have just put us all to eternal shame. Do you have a list of all you've got? cuz I'm entirely interested to know. Or perhaps just an excerpt of your more rare systems. Where the hell do you store it all? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From hans1 at filan00.grenoble.hp.com Fri Jun 6 04:20:46 1997 From: hans1 at filan00.grenoble.hp.com (Hans Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Chisolm Message-ID: <3397D66E.7FD1@filan00.grenoble.hp.com> Hi there, Marvin wrote : > Another is a a neat portable (probably > non-working) with nothing but the word "Chisholm" on it. It looks like > a prototype judging by the number of mods to the circuit board. Any > info would be much appreciated. You are right in thinking it's a protoype. I used to work for Gavilan Computers back in the '80s and recall us using Chisholm as our design house. If you can describe the unit, or better yet post a picture, I can perhaps identify it as a Gavilan. Regards, Hans B Pufal From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 6 10:45:51 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ok, you have just put us all to eternal shame. Do you have a list of all > you've got? cuz I'm entirely interested to know. Or perhaps just an > excerpt of your more rare systems. Where the hell do you store it all? As to where I store it ... all over! I tend to forget what I have but I the earliest is probably the PDP 8i, and PDP 11/05. Of course the Mits Altair and Imsai. As to being rare, I don't have a good handle on that part. The collection includes the early Pets with the Chicklet keyboard, Atari, Heath Data Systems, Northstar, Altos, CompuPro, Wang, DEC, Timex, Commodore, Lobo, Polymorphic, Vector Graphic, Intel, Corona and Cordata (the company that took over Corona,) Morrow, Ohio Scientific, some Apple stuff, Tandy and Radio Shack, Sol, Cromemco, Xerox, NCC, Televideo, NCR, Kaypro, Osbourne, IBM, Sanyo, Compaq, Jonos, Eagle, and probably a bunch more I can't recall off hand. When I first started collecting, the idea was to save these things from the dumpster. As time went on, a lot of people kept their eyes open for me and were willing to give me the stuff rather than have to junk it. I just picked up a mint Xerox 820 last weekend from a swapmeet WITH docs (!!!) from someone who just wanted it gone. Someone in town dumpstered a bunch of stuff that was picked up by a friend. In the process of cleaning his place, he gave it to me and it was mostly HD related and included several HD testers (no docs ) and a bunch of non-working HDs. Another thing I am looking for are the docs and schematics for the Zenith H-67 Hard Disk sub-system used with the H-89. The H-67 has a bad power supply board, and without the schematics, it is a bit hard to troubleshoot. I do have duplicate hardware manuals for some of the Vector Graphic computers and would be willing to trade for other documentation I don't have. Also FWIW, I don't sell these computers although I would be willing to trade some of the duplicates for computers I don't have. From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 6 10:53:57 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Chisolm In-Reply-To: <3397D66E.7FD1@filan00.grenoble.hp.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Hans Pufal wrote: > You are right in thinking it's a protoype. > > I used to work for Gavilan Computers back in the '80s and recall us > using Chisholm as our design house. If you can describe the unit, or > better yet post a picture, I can perhaps identify it as a Gavilan. Wow, I think I am beginning to like this listserver! It has an LCD screen with a decent keyboard on it. The size is approximately 12" wide x 8" deep x 5" high and the LCD screen folds up typical of a portable. It has a couple of standard bus size cards (one is missing) but uses the header type connector (2 x 50?) instead of the gold fingers to plug into the backplane. If this is a Gavilan, are docs, schematics, and parts still available? One of the things on my wish list is a digital camera so I can easily digitize photos of stuff like this. From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 6 11:54:59 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com> At 08:53 AM 6/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >One of the things on my wish list is a digital camera so I can easily >digitize photos of stuff like this. I have been trying to decide the best way to get images into digital form. Naturally, a digital camera is one way, but not the only. There's also the photo/scanner method, camcorder/video capture, and probably others. As I see it, the pros/cons are: DigCam: + Easy to use, convenient - Expensive to buy, somewhat limited capacity, no hard copy of images (except printer output) Photo/Scanner: + Hard Copy, can be used for other stuff too - Film and Developing can be expensive, takes time Camcorder: + Easy to use, Allows for selecting the right image from several views - Video capture hardware/software isn't cheap So, does anyone have thoughts on which is best? I'd like a scanner for other things, but they're expensive too. There's also the question of 35mm vs. polaroid and type of scanner. (Not to mention where the heck would I put it!) I've got a camcorder and my girlfriend's mac supposedly can do video capture as is, but I've got to find software and figure it out. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 6 11:51:52 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Also FWIW, I don't sell these computers although I would be willing to > trade some of the duplicates for computers I don't have. You're joking, right? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jun 6 12:02:08 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: TRS-80 - buy,sell, and trade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Howdy folks: I am wondering if anyone out there on this listserve has any Radio Shack TRS-80 they'd like to give up... either for sale or trade. I collect a lot of different things and have Apple, Commodore, Texas Instruments, Colour Genie, MSX, Vectrex, etc., etc... but, my true life-long love has been the TRS-80 Model 1,3,4 line... and now the CoCo line of computers. I am especially looking for any old TRS-80 related magazines: especially 80-Micro, 80-US Journal, and TRS-80 Microcomputer News. I have been archiving software for all these machines, and especially the TRS-80s for about 10 years now. I do have a huge 65 page catalog of everything in my collection. If you'd like to see it just let me know and I'll ship it out. I do not have it in electronic form... only available through USPS. It contains all my classic computer hardware, as well as all my software in original disk, tape, cartridge, etc., forat, as well as already converted to run on modern PC emulators. If you would like to get the catalog even quicker, send me $3 to the address below. It actually costs me $3.24 to mail, and more to publish, but it sure would help me out. As far as the software that I have, I like to believe that I have virtually most things ever written for the TRS-80s, but I know there is a lot more out there. If you have some software of old disk, cassettes, etc. please let me know. As always, I am enternaining expanding my hardware collection as well at all times. I currently have 7 TRS-80 Model 3, 2 Model 1, 4 Model 4s, 3 Model 4ps, and several Commodore 64s, Texas Instruments, 1 Coco 1, 4 CoCo 2, and 1 CoCo 3. I just love collecting these things and would love to hear from others as to what you might have available to expand my collection... or just to hear what interesting things you have. Thanks a lot, and hope to hear from you soon! CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Jun 6 11:59:38 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: TRS-80 - buy,sell, and trade Message-ID: <199706061708.MAA07329@challenge.sunflower.com> I have an extra Trs-80 model 4 (64k) with 2 -floppies, Works FIne, make me a trade offer! ---------- > From: Cord Coslor > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: TRS-80 - buy,sell, and trade > Date: Friday, June 06, 1997 12:02 PM > > Howdy folks: > > I am wondering if anyone out there on this listserve has any Radio Shack > TRS-80 they'd like to give up... either for sale or trade. I collect a lot > of different things and have Apple, Commodore, Texas Instruments, Colour > Genie, MSX, Vectrex, etc., etc... but, my true life-long love has been the > TRS-80 Model 1,3,4 line... and now the CoCo line of computers. > > I am especially looking for any old TRS-80 related magazines: especially > 80-Micro, 80-US Journal, and TRS-80 Microcomputer News. > > I have been archiving software for all these machines, and especially the > TRS-80s for about 10 years now. I do have a huge 65 page catalog of > everything in my collection. If you'd like to see it just let me know and > I'll ship it out. I do not have it in electronic form... only available > through USPS. > > It contains all my classic computer hardware, as well as all my software > in original disk, tape, cartridge, etc., forat, as well as already > converted to run on modern PC emulators. > > If you would like to get the catalog even quicker, send me $3 to the > address below. It actually costs me $3.24 to mail, and more to publish, > but it sure would help me out. > > As far as the software that I have, I like to believe that I have > virtually most things ever written for the TRS-80s, but I know there is a > lot more out there. If you have some software of old disk, cassettes, etc. > please let me know. As always, I am enternaining expanding my hardware > collection as well at all times. I currently have 7 TRS-80 Model 3, 2 > Model 1, 4 Model 4s, 3 Model 4ps, and several Commodore 64s, Texas > Instruments, 1 Coco 1, 4 CoCo 2, and 1 CoCo 3. > > I just love collecting these things and would love to hear from others as > to what you might have available to expand my collection... or just to > hear what interesting things you have. > > Thanks a lot, and hope to hear from you soon! > > CORD COSLOR > > //*=====================================================================++ > || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || > || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || > || Classic computer software and hardware collector || > || Autograph collector || > ++=====================================================================*// > From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri Jun 6 12:23:19 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com> from "Uncle Roger" at Jun 6, 97 09:54:59 am Message-ID: <199706061723.LAA13067@calico.litterbox.com> You might also consider getting your photos from a normal 35mm processed into a photo CD. Most image processing software can read them right from your PC/MAC cdrom. Costs extra, but nothing compared to a digital camera. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 6 14:09:28 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Misc. References: Message-ID: <33986068.6CF3@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > Also FWIW, I don't sell these computers although I would be willing to > > trade some of the duplicates for computers I don't have. > > You're joking, right? No. At this point, I am interested in preserving the history primarily of microcomuters. I have been approached a number of times by people wanting to buy a given computer, but again, selling is not my objective. From danjo at xnet.com Fri Jun 6 18:01:09 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: <33986068.6CF3@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > > > Also FWIW, I don't sell these computers although I would be willing to > > > trade some of the duplicates for computers I don't have. > > > > You're joking, right? > > No. At this point, I am interested in preserving the history primarily > of microcomuters. I have been approached a number of times by people > wanting to buy a given computer, but again, selling is not my objective. I think Sam's comment was aimed more at the point of *for computers I don't have* not that you don't sell them 8-) I guess a good starting point would be - What DON'T you have that you want? BC From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 6 18:20:19 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: <33986068.6CF3@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > > Also FWIW, I don't sell these computers although I would be willing to > > > trade some of the duplicates for computers I don't have. > > > > You're joking, right? > > No. At this point, I am interested in preserving the history primarily > of microcomuters. I have been approached a number of times by people > wanting to buy a given computer, but again, selling is not my objective. Well, I was joking, referring to your statement "trade some of the duplicates for computers I don't have". ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Unless you're talking about homebrews and obscure prototypes that barely made it past the implementation phase, you'll be hard pressed to sqeeze a system out of anyone that you don't have! :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From visimp at junction.net Fri Jun 6 19:48:47 1997 From: visimp at junction.net (Lindsay Thachuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: TRS-80 - buy,sell, and trade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19970606.164847.44@junction.net> In message you wrote: > I am especially looking for any old TRS-80 related magazines: especially > 80-Micro, 80-US Journal, and TRS-80 Microcomputer News. Like many others, I had a TRS-80 as my first desktop computer. I have a series of magazines called Computronics - The Original Magazine for TRS-80 Owners. August 1981 - August 1983 - about 24 issues in mint condition - one or two missing in the series and some duplicate issues. E-mail direct for details -- Lindsay Thachuk in Western Canada with the World's Best Computer - the Acorn RiscPC with the only StrongARM in ARMstrong - Intel Outside From visimp at junction.net Fri Jun 6 19:54:57 1997 From: visimp at junction.net (Lindsay Thachuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com> References: <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: <19970606.165457.68@junction.net> In message <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com> you wrote: > At 08:53 AM 6/6/97 -0700, you wrote: > >One of the things on my wish list is a digital camera so I can easily > >digitize photos of stuff like this. > > I have been trying to decide the best way to get images into digital form. > Naturally, a digital camera is one way, but not the only. There's also the > photo/scanner method, camcorder/video capture, and probably others. As I > see it, the pros/cons are: Digital cameras are convenient but limited resolution. I would suggest you look into the camcorder digitizer called Snappy - good value for money and you can use your existing camcorder. -- Lindsay Thachuk in Western Canada with the World's Best Computer - the Acorn RiscPC with the only StrongARM in ARMstrong From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 7 00:26:46 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Misc. References: Message-ID: <3398F0EF.4C79@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Well, I was joking, referring to your statement "trade some of the > duplicates for computers I don't have". > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Unless you're talking about homebrews and obscure prototypes that barely > made it past the implementation phase, you'll be hard pressed to sqeeze a > system out of anyone that you don't have! :) Ah so, that one went right over my head, sorry about that one :). As far as systems I don't have, there are a LOT I am still looking for. To name just a few, the Aim 64, Kim, SWTP 6800 computer, Acorns (I am not familar with them,) and quite a few others with the main interest in the 70's computers. I am really impressed with "The Big List of Classic Computers" and it has made me much more aware of how small the collection really is compared to what was produced. From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 7 00:29:26 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) References: <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com> <19970606.165457.68@junction.net> Message-ID: <3398F1B6.4788@rain.org> Lindsay Thachuk wrote: > > Digital cameras are convenient but limited resolution. I would suggest > you look into the camcorder digitizer called Snappy - good value for > money and you can use your existing camcorder. That had totally slipped my mind, thanks for the reminder! From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 7 01:03:14 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module References: <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com> <19970606.165457.68@junction.net> <3398F1B6.4788@rain.org> Message-ID: <3398F9A2.20B8@rain.org> In my travels, I picked up a dozen or so Seattle Computer CPU modules, model 220A. Basically, it is a circuit board about 1.5" x 3" with an 8088, SN74LS04, SN74LS30, and a SN74LS273 chip on it. It has an 8 pin header on the component side of the board, and the 40 pins of the 8088 socket extend about .5" below the board. Does anyone here have any idea what this is??? I have had them for several years and have yet to find out where they were used. Thanks. From JONATHAN at holly.ninja.ml.org Sat Jun 7 11:52:41 1997 From: JONATHAN at holly.ninja.ml.org (Jonathan Hunter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Misc. Message-ID: <32C50020438@holly.ninja.ml.org> On 6 Jun 97 at 22:26, Marvin wrote: > Ah so, that one went right over my head, sorry about that one :). As > far as systems I don't have, there are a LOT I am still looking for. To > name just a few, the Aim 64, Kim, SWTP 6800 computer, Acorns (I am not > familar with them,) and quite a few others with the main interest in the > 70's computers. I am really impressed with "The Big List of Classic > Computers" and it has made me much more aware of how small the > collection really is compared to what was produced. I have an Acorn Electron going spare, if anybody wants it. It's a "Plus 3", I've been told - it's the standard Electron, but with an extra expansion module added on, containing a 3.5" floppy disk drive, some ports, and who knows what else...! It's in Manchester, UK. ___ _ _ ___ _ _| (_)(\)(-) | (-)(-)(\) From eifs at thenet.co.uk Fri Jun 6 14:03:49 1997 From: eifs at thenet.co.uk (Eifion Bedford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: Uncle Roger writes >So, does anyone have thoughts on which is best? I'd like a scanner for >other things, but they're expensive too. There's also the question of 35mm >vs. polaroid and type of scanner. (Not to mention where the heck would I >put it!) I've got a camcorder and my girlfriend's mac supposedly can do >video capture as is, but I've got to find software and figure it out. What about taking photos with a normal camera and having them put on a Photo CD? This is relatively cheap and the quality (up to 3000x2000 pixels) should be plenty! -- Eifs From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sat Jun 7 13:18:59 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) Message-ID: <3399A613.6949@oboe.calpoly.edu> Hello, I have been doing some image transfer in the last few months. I bought a Color QuickCam for about $150. The resolution isn't that great but it is easy to use. I also bought a scanner last month through Onsale for $139 + $20 shipping. It came with Photoshop LE which I could sell (I already have Photoshop) for $30. Anyway that brings the cost for a color flatbed (300 x 600) scanner down to $129. It will scan photos with incredible resolution. Photo developing is $6-$10 per roll though. I've never used the camcorder method but I can't imagine it'll be any better than the QuickCam. I did buy a TV card for the PC (I'm still putting together) for $65 a while back. I think it has screen/image capture software and video inputs. If you already have a videocamera that would be your cheapest alternative. Besides, then you can watch Gilligans Island on your computer! > I have been trying to decide the best way to get images into digital form. > Naturally, a digital camera is one way, but not the only. There's also the > photo/scanner method, camcorder/video capture, and probably others. As I > see it, the pros/cons are: > > DigCam: + Easy to use, convenient > - Expensive to buy, somewhat limited capacity, > no hard copy of images (except printer output) > > Photo/Scanner: + Hard Copy, can be used for other stuff too > - Film and Developing can be expensive, takes time > > Camcorder: + Easy to use, Allows for selecting the right image > from several views > - Video capture hardware/software isn't cheap > > So, does anyone have thoughts on which is best? I'd like a scanner for > other things, but they're expensive too. There's also the question of 35mm > vs. polaroid and type of scanner. (Not to mention where the heck would I > put it!) I've got a camcorder and my girlfriend's mac supposedly can do > video capture as is, but I've got to find software and figure it out. From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 7 14:23:28 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: I was watching this program on cable called the Computer Bowl or something hosted by Ziff-Davis publishing where they had two teams of nerds answering computer and computer industry related questions. One of the questions was: What was the serial number on the first Apple ][ computer? Answer tomorrow. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Sat Jun 7 17:32:13 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > As to where I store it ... all over! I tend to forget what I have but I > the earliest is probably the PDP 8i, and PDP 11/05. Of course the Mits > Altair and Imsai. As to being rare, I don't have a good handle on that > part. The collection includes the early Pets with the Chicklet keyboard, > Atari, Heath Data Systems, Northstar, Altos, CompuPro, Wang, DEC, Timex, > Commodore, Lobo, Polymorphic, Vector Graphic, Intel, Corona and Cordata > (the company that took over Corona,) Morrow, Ohio Scientific, some Apple > stuff, Tandy and Radio Shack, Sol, Cromemco, Xerox, NCC, Televideo, NCR, > Kaypro, Osbourne, IBM, Sanyo, Compaq, Jonos, Eagle, and probably a bunch > more I can't recall off hand. All I can say is - when I started putting together the List of Classic Computers I never thought anyone would collect them _all_!! ;) Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Sat Jun 7 18:09:40 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module In-Reply-To: <3398F9A2.20B8@rain.org> Message-ID: I was hoping someone wlse would know, but I'll do my best. > In my travels, I picked up a dozen or so Seattle Computer CPU modules, > model 220A. Basically, it is a circuit board about 1.5" x 3" with an > 8088, SN74LS04, SN74LS30, and a SN74LS273 chip on it. It has an 8 pin > header on the component side of the board, and the 40 pins of the 8088 > socket extend about .5" below the board. Does anyone here have any idea > what this is??? I have had them for several years and have yet to find > out where they were used. Thanks. This info was obtained second hand from a guy I bought a bunch of SCP stuff from. Apparently a one-time friend of his work for them. Thus - this could be wrong. SCP made at least six models of computer the first being Z80 machines which ran CP/M, the next few being 8086 based which ran CPM-86 or SCP-DOS (which I'm pretty sure is MS-DOS 1.0 or the immediate prdecessor purchased by MS). The last were 8088 PC-clone type machines. We're concerned with the 8086 machines which apparently were equipped to take a coprocessor so as to run both CP/M-86 and SCP-DOS/MS-DOS simultaneously. I missed buying such a machine by 15 minutes :(. At any rate - I'm guessing you have a bunch of 8088 co-processors for these machines. The one I missed was called a Gazelle-I so they might be for that machine. Too bad I missed the machine - but I did pick up everything else the guy had. Came down to a stack of Shugart 8" drives, some CompuPro S-100 boards and a whole bunch of SCP disks. Now that I've brought it up - SCP-DOS 1.0 = MS-DOS 1.0? I'm pretty sure it is because another disk I've got is labelled the same but says SCP/MS-DOS v1.25. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 7 18:23:18 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module References: Message-ID: <3399ED66.24F1@rain.org> > > > In my travels, I picked up a dozen or so Seattle Computer CPU modules, > > model 220A. Basically, it is a circuit board about 1.5" x 3" with an > > 8088, SN74LS04, SN74LS30, and a SN74LS273 chip on it. It has an 8 pin > > header on the component side of the board, and the 40 pins of the 8088 > > socket extend about .5" below the board. Does anyone here have any idea > > what this is??? I have had them for several years and have yet to find > > out where they were used. Thanks. > CP/M-86 and SCP-DOS/MS-DOS simultaneously. I missed buying such a > machine by 15 minutes :(. At any rate - I'm guessing you have a > bunch of 8088 co-processors for these machines. The one I missed > was called a Gazelle-I so they might be for that machine. > > Bill That would make sense since they sure look like an add-on for something. One thing I left out of the descriptions was the date code on the chips were 1986. If anyone has a need for them, let me know as I have about 2 dozen when I checked again. From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 7 18:30:04 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Misc. References: Message-ID: <3399EEFC.3255@rain.org> Bill Whitson wrote: > > > As to where I store it ... all over! I tend to forget what I have but I > > the earliest is probably the PDP 8i, and PDP 11/05. Of course the Mits > > Altair and Imsai. As to being rare, I don't have a good handle on that > > part. The collection includes the early Pets with the Chicklet keyboard, > > Atari, Heath Data Systems, Northstar, Altos, CompuPro, Wang, DEC, Timex, > > Commodore, Lobo, Polymorphic, Vector Graphic, Intel, Corona and Cordata > > (the company that took over Corona,) Morrow, Ohio Scientific, some Apple > > stuff, Tandy and Radio Shack, Sol, Cromemco, Xerox, NCC, Televideo, NCR, > > Kaypro, Osbourne, IBM, Sanyo, Compaq, Jonos, Eagle, and probably a bunch > > more I can't recall off hand. > > All I can say is - when I started putting together the List of Classic > Computers I never thought anyone would collect them _all_!! ;) > I was reading a copy of the Z-Letter a few years ago and read where he had somewhere around 400 computers. I figured I had better get busy if I was to have any chance of catching him :). From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 7 21:25:12 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:44 2005 Subject: Polymorphic Computers Message-ID: I was checking the Polymorphic Systems computers I have against the "The Big List" and found an 8824. It is a partial chassis but looks similar to the others except it is designed for 8" drives. Since it is not complete, I'll have to check in the Engineering stuff to see if there is a description of it. I also found a chassis model 88DS. It doesn't match with the number in "The Big List" so I'll check further into that. Regarding the others, from the "System 88 User's Manual", copyright 1979. 1.1 SYSTEM 88 MODELS The System 88 product line consists of the System 8813, available with up to 3 mini-floppy drives; the System 8810 with one mini-floppy drive, and the 88/MS add-on with 2 large floppy drives. The 8813 and 8810 models are available with optional double-sided, double density, mini-floppy disk drives. The 88/MS, an add-on storage for the 8813, is available with either double or single-sided, double density large floppy disk drives. From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 7 21:45:38 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > This info was obtained second hand from a guy I bought a bunch of > SCP stuff from. Apparently a one-time friend of his work for them. > Thus - this could be wrong. SCP made at least six models of computer > the first being Z80 machines which ran CP/M, the next few being 8086 > based which ran CPM-86 or SCP-DOS (which I'm pretty sure is MS-DOS > 1.0 or the immediate prdecessor purchased by MS). The last were 8088 I never knew they called it SCP-DOS. All I ever heard it called was "QDOS" -- Quick & Dirty Operating System, basically a crude CP/M clone. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From djenner at halcyon.com Sat Jun 7 23:04:05 1997 From: djenner at halcyon.com (Dave Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Available: DEC Rainbow Memory Extension Cards Message-ID: <339A2125.36C7@halcyon.com> I have available several PC100B Memory Extension cards for the Rainbow for giveaway, or for trade if you have something that interests me. At the moment, the cards are unpopulated, but you can generally find 256Kbit chips to fill the board for about a $1 junk PC card. (A fully populated board has at most 3 banks of 9 256Kbit chips for a total of 768K and a system total of 896K.) I can provide a copy of the memory configuration pamphlet. I will give preference to anyone who has something to trade, but feel free to ask even if you don't. If you have something to trade I will even go out and find the $1 junk board and populate the card! Here's what I am looking for: 1) BCC17 cable for use with a VT241 color monitor 2) Documentation for Rainbow Concurrent CP/M-86, especially programming references. 3) Venix/Rainbow software and documentation. Dave Jenner djenner@halcyon.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 7 23:13:58 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module Message-ID: <199706080413.AA21276@world.std.com> > > This info was obtained second hand from a guy I bought a bunch of > > SCP stuff from. Apparently a one-time friend of his work for them. > > Thus - this could be wrong. SCP made at least six models of computer > > the first being Z80 machines which ran CP/M, the next few being 8086 > > based which ran CPM-86 or SCP-DOS (which I'm pretty sure is MS-DOS > > 1.0 or the immediate prdecessor purchased by MS). The last were 8088 > > I never knew they called it SCP-DOS. All I ever heard it called was > "QDOS" -- Quick & Dirty Operating System, basically a crude CP/M clone. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe > Hi, New here but here goes... The module was a "upgrade product for those wating a 8088 and having only z80 cpu. By unplugging the z80 and putting in the card you could run 16bit apps. qdos was not a clone it was and outright disassembly of CP/M80 v1.4 and reassembly to 8086/8. Allison From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 7 23:57:03 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module References: <199706080413.AA21276@world.std.com> Message-ID: <339A3B9F.A6E@rain.org> Allison J Parent wrote: > > The module was a "upgrade product for those wating a 8088 and having only > z80 cpu. By unplugging the z80 and putting in the card you could run 16bit > apps. > Does this mean it would work in place of any 8080 CPU? Any idea what the 8 pin header on the component side of the board was used for? This is interesting since these past comments are the first I have heard about the module! From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 8 01:29:54 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module In-Reply-To: <339A3B9F.A6E@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Allison J Parent wrote: > > The module was a "upgrade product for those wating a 8088 and having only > > z80 cpu. By unplugging the z80 and putting in the card you could run 16bit > > apps. > Does this mean it would work in place of any 8080 CPU? Any idea what > the 8 pin header on the component side of the board was used for? This > is interesting since these past comments are the first I have heard > about the module! The 8080 is a 40-pin package. The Z-80 is a 48-pin package. If I remember correctly (my life in computers started with the Z-80, really, since my friend with the Altair when I was in the USAF didn't let me at the hardware, he knew my [inclined to injure myself] soldering skills). This generally means that an adapter was needed to plug a Z-80 into a board designed for a 8080. But I started my real computer career when computers showed up where you didn't have to count the pins on the CPU, specifically the TRS-80 (later renamed the Model One). I remember the first time I looked down into a Model 16 and saw the MC68000 and wondered why the hell that thing wasn't climbing up the side of the Empire State Building. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From pogi at ns.qnis.net Sun Jun 8 08:41:47 1997 From: pogi at ns.qnis.net (Kenneth Harbit) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <199706081341.GAA26678@ns.qnis.net> From KFergason at aol.com Sun Jun 8 08:45:02 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module Message-ID: <970608094501_678140300@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-08 03:18:29 EDT, you write: << The 8080 is a 40-pin package. The Z-80 is a 48-pin package. If I remember correctly (my life in computers started with the Z-80, really, >> no. the z-80 is a 40-pin package. i got bunches. Kelly From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 8 09:49:09 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module In-Reply-To: <970608094501_678140300@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997 KFergason@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-06-08 03:18:29 EDT, you write: > > << The 8080 is a 40-pin package. The Z-80 is a 48-pin package. If I > remember correctly (my life in computers started with the Z-80, really, >> > > no. the z-80 is a 40-pin package. i got bunches. You're right, I just looked -- don't recall where I got that idea. Of course, I still don't open my boxes all that often -- I'm still inclined to injure myself. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 8 10:57:49 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module Message-ID: <199706081557.AA17504@world.std.com> > > The module was a "upgrade product for those wating a 8088 and having onl > > z80 cpu. By unplugging the z80 and putting in the card you could run 16 > > Does this mean it would work in place of any 8080 CPU? Any idea what > the 8 pin header on the component side of the board was used for? This > is interesting since these past comments are the first I have heard > about the module! No. first it was not an 8080 replacement. Though it may have subbed for 8085 as they were very similar. Two the system had to be configured to run 8088 code(wich is not 8080 or z80 compatable. I had done this to an 8085 system as the signals from the 8088 are the 8085 are very close. The extra plug was likely the remaining 4 address lines (16 bit vs 20 bit addressing). If I had one I could trace it out and regenerate the schematic. Allison From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Sun Jun 8 11:54:15 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <970608115415.20811b53@wartburg.edu> I'm fairly new to the list, so I'd like to introduce myself (and my computers). I am typing this message right now on an Apple IIGS. I've worked with most of the older Apple II series computers also. I still actively use my Apple IIGS for nearly every task that most people think requires a "new" computer. My first computer, on which I learned a *lot* about programming, was the Mattel Aquarius, which I still own. I've been looking off and on for information about it. The FAQ is nice, but I know of at least one possible inaccuracy: the "Chess" game was released, I'm reasonably sure, because I have it. The computer's not too bad of a player, either, if I remember (it's been *years* since I've used the machine - I'm living at college right now, and the Aquarius is at home). I know now that a lot of people didn't like the Aquarius. I thought it was a really neat machine. I probably learned more from it that from any other single learning tool I've ever had, with the *possible* exception of my IIGS. I'm looking forward to hearing about anyone else's experiences with the Aquarius (or even the IIGS, though info about that is still plentiful on comp.sys.apple2). -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu http://www.wartburg.edu/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From william at ans.net Sun Jun 8 12:02:27 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Teaneck Findings In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970602142306.00920a70@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <199706081702.AA29402@interlock.ans.net> The Teaneck NJ hamfest this past Saturday yeilded only a few old computer pieces (good for tubes, however). I saw quite a few old micros (sorry, I did not make notes - I am not much of a micro person). I did see... Sun 3/110 (with a few spare cards) - a bit expensive DEC PDP-11/70 front panel - the good kind with knobs, switches, and lights (I purchased this) DEC KBD01 - a true whatsit - 8085 based, in one of the LSI-11/2 desktop boxes, RS-232 (maybe) and another D connector on back. Any clues? I have no clue. (I purchased this as well) DEC DELNI - a small stack William Donzelli william@ans.net From kyrrin at wizards.net Sun Jun 8 12:06:44 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Tape drive help? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970608100644.00f790e0@mail.wizards.net> In the interests of getting an old DEC PDP-11 running, I've got an STC 9-track tape drive here, a model 2921. This is, apparently, one of the rare few that StorageTek (aka, STC/Telex) manufactured with a Pertec interface vs. their own. Based on conversations with a company that still maintains these old beasts, it appears that the CPU card has gone bad. I'd like to at least try and confirm this by swapping said card with a known-good one. So... anyone own a 2921 that they don't mind it being used as a guinea pig? ;-) Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 8 12:30:36 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: 8088s seattle comp. Message-ID: <199706081730.AA01490@world.std.com> Subject: Re: Seattle Computer CPU Module > The 8080 is a 40-pin package. The Z-80 is a 48-pin package. If I > remember correctly (my life in computers started with the Z-80, really, Whn I got up off the floor laughing... The z80, 8085, 8080 are all 40 pin packages and the z80 in any varient was never in a 48 pin package. The z180 aka 64180 was a 64 pin package or 68pin plcc. > since my friend with the Altair when I was in the USAF didn't let me at > the hardware, he knew my [inclined to injure myself] soldering skills). > This generally means that an adapter was needed to plug a Z-80 into a > board designed for a 8080. But I started my real computer career when Not true. there were z80 based boards to replace the 8080 board. For a while due to costs there where boards that carried z80s that would plug into an 8080 socket to upgrade the machine to z80 perfomance... > computers showed up where you didn't have to count the pins on the CPU, > specifically the TRS-80 (later renamed the Model One). I remember the > first time I looked down into a Model 16 and saw the MC68000 and wondered > why the hell that thing wasn't climbing up the side of the Empire State > Building. What you missed was the ti9900 chip that was 3 years older and also 64 pins. FYI the ti9900 chips was a 16bit cpu! Allison --LAA09304.865785477/europe.std.com-- From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 8 12:30:50 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: intro sort of Message-ID: <199706081730.AA01592@world.std.com> Hello, I'm Allison and I've been invloved with microcomputer since the introduction of the MCS8 (8008) and computers in general since the PDP-8. On site I have... they are all operational: DEC made: VT180 (cpm/zcpr) PDP-11/23 (RT-11 os) PDP-11/23+ (RT-11 os) PDP11/73 (RSTS or RT-11 os) PDT-11/130 (RT-11) MicroVAX2000 (Currently VMS5.4 later netbsd) MicrovaxII/gps (Currently VMS5.4 later netbsd) CPM and S100 systems: Northstar* s100 z80 (CP/M/zcpr, 40 meg hard disk) S100 (vector chasis) computime z80 and misc s100 cards (cpm/zcpr) SB180 (CPM2.2/zcpr 3.5" floppies and 20meg hard disk) Ampro Little board (CP/m/ZCPR 3.5" floppies and 42meg hard disk) Explorer85 8085 (NS*dos cpm1.4) Epson PX8 geneva with 120k ramdisk and 64k ramdisk/300baud modem wedges (runs cpm from rom) Kaypro 4/84 (turborom and CPM) MITS Altair 8800 (I built this one in late 74, one of the early units) Misc Single board computers (demo boards) Intersil 6960 mdemo board, 6100 chip 12bit PDP-8 on a chip National Semi ISP8a500 low cost 8 bit cpu. Technico Inc board using texas instruments TI9900 chip 16 bit (also have a TI99/4A with w/expansion box and software) Motorola 6800D2 board National Semi Nibblebasic chip (CPU with rom basic on a chip) Original cosmac elf. RCA1802 IMSI IMP48 8035 cpu NEC TK80 8080 demo board. PCs Leading edge model D 8088 (dos) (several other PCs far too new (less than 10 years). Plus parts (8080s, 8085, 8088, peripheral chips, rams...) CPU chips 8080, 8085, 8086, 8088, 80188, 80186, 808286, z80s, 6800s, 6502, 1802, 6100, 6120(pdp8), 8748, 8035, 8749, 8039, 8751, 8031, T11chip (pdp11 on a chip), NECd78pg11, NEC d7800 Allison From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sun Jun 8 13:30:40 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: [Fwd: FS: Ancient Unix Boxen] Message-ID: <339AFA50.54F6@oboe.calpoly.edu> This was posted on a local newsgroup. Don't know if the guy wants to ship them but I thought I should forward this. Greg -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Jamie Town Subject: FS: Ancient Unix Boxen Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 22:05:58 -0700 Size: 2036 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970608/7e8dbd70/attachment.mht From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 8 14:53:53 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: [Fwd: FS: Ancient Unix Boxen] References: <339AFA50.54F6@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <339B0DD1.37A0@rain.org> Greg Mast wrote: > > This was posted on a local newsgroup. Don't know if the guy wants to > ship them but I thought I should forward this. > > Greg > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: FS: Ancient Unix Boxen > Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 22:05:58 -0700 > From: Jamie Town > Organization: N/A > Newsgroups: slo.for-sale Good grief, right in my backyard! I just left a message for him and we'll see what happens. I have both machines, but not sure about the documentation. Thanks for reposting!!! From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 8 15:14:04 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Polymorphic Computers References: <339AFA50.54F6@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <339B128C.4076@rain.org> With many thanks to the existance of this group for motivation, I got busy and started checking out the Polymorphic Systems stuff that I have. So far, the only thing I haven't checked out and organized are the engineering drawings so I don't know what is there. There appear to be a complete set of master manuals, both hardcopy for duplicating, and on disk. I haven't checked out how complete the ROM set is yet, but there are a lot of ROM software source listings, primarily on disk but some on hardcopy. The source code (and history) for the programs Polymorphic provided are also here. One thing I found really interesting was a copy of their business plan written about 1979 or so. It appears that something happened and they went into Chapter XI at some point, and were recovering when the business plan was written. Brochure trivia: a friend of mine, wearing a shirt and tie, was pictured working at the computer. What the picture didn't show were the shorts he was wearing when the picture was taken :). Regarding the model 88DS, I found (but haven't checked it out yet) a manual describing the conversion of the Model 88 to the Model 88DS. I still need to set up one of the Polymorphic computers with both 8" and 5 1/4" drives to check out the *many* disks. One thing I was thinking of for archival purposes was to back everything up to CD-ROM. Of course, I would need to get the CDR unit, but hey, these are just details :). From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Jun 8 16:04:12 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <970608115415.20811b53@wartburg.edu> from "Andy Brobston" at Jun 8, 97 11:54:15 am Message-ID: <199706082104.PAA24400@calico.litterbox.com> Re: Apple2 GS I currently have two of the things and have been merrily upgrading them with obselete PC parts (300mb hard disks sure are cheap these days) and will soon haul one to my father to upgrade him from his Laser (2e clone) to a GS so he can have a web browser, etc. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 8 22:13:15 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: ; from "Marvin Johnston" at Jun 6, 97 8:45 am Message-ID: <199706082113.24223@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > > > Ok, you have just put us all to eternal shame. Do you have a list of all > > you've got? cuz I'm entirely interested to know. Or perhaps just an > > excerpt of your more rare systems. Where the hell do you store it all? Wow.... This lot totally dwarfs my little collection (I think I have about 150 machines, including calculators, but excluding interesting peripherals), and I thought I was doing pretty well! > > As to where I store it ... all over! I tend to forget what I have but I Ditto. Storage is a _BIG_ problem, and one which I guess all people on this list have to deal with. A mad friend of mine is a calculator collector, and he's fond of pointing out in his lectures that his collection will fit under his bed, while mine (pointing to ard on the front row :-)) will barely fit in the house > the earliest is probably the PDP 8i, and PDP 11/05. Of course the Mits Do you have any other minis? I find them a lot more interesting than micros, as I think I've mentioned before, since you can actually understand how the CPU works at gate level. > Altair and Imsai. As to being rare, I don't have a good handle on that > part. The collection includes the early Pets with the Chicklet keyboard, > Atari, Heath Data Systems, Northstar, Altos, CompuPro, Wang, DEC, Timex, > Commodore, Lobo, Polymorphic, Vector Graphic, Intel, Corona and Cordata > (the company that took over Corona,) Morrow, Ohio Scientific, some Apple > stuff, Tandy and Radio Shack, Sol, Cromemco, Xerox, NCC, Televideo, NCR, > Kaypro, Osbourne, IBM, Sanyo, Compaq, Jonos, Eagle, and probably a bunch > more I can't recall off hand. A partial list of manufacturers in my collection : Acorn, Apple, Commodore, Atari, Tandy, IBM, DEC, 3RCC/PERQ systems, ICL, HH, Panasonic, Research Machines, Oric, HP, Northstar, I2S, Intel, FTS, Exidy, Xerox/Diablo, Tektronix, Olivetti, CCS, Sharp, Torch, Philips, Epson, Ramtek, Grinnell, Sun, Apollo, WCW(no complete machines - yet!), AES, Zilog, Sage, Sinclair, Sanyo, Tatung, SGS, CASU, Jupiter Cantab, Grundy, Genrad/Futuredata, NEC, PPL, Evans and Sutherland, Sanders, Facit, Cipher, Teletype, Novus, Casio, etc. > > When I first started collecting, the idea was to save these things from > the dumpster. As time went on, a lot of people kept their eyes open I think most people start like that. You suddenly realise that a lot of computer history is going to be lost for ever unless somebody does something about it - and you're that somebody. > for me and were willing to give me the stuff rather than have to junk it. A tip : Get known where you work (and at church, clubs, etc) as somebody who wants old computer and electronic 'junk'. It's amazing what you get given - several times people have said 'Oh, we're about to throw this out, do you want it' where 'this' is a complete computer system with all manuals. > Another thing I am looking for are the docs and schematics for the Zenith > H-67 Hard Disk sub-system used with the H-89. The H-67 has a bad power > supply board, and without the schematics, it is a bit hard to > troubleshoot. Power supplies are either linear or switchers. Linears are next-to-trivial to sort out (at least if they use any of the standard regulator IC's), and switching units can be repaired. There are a number of standard IC's, and if any of those are used, you can generally guess the configuration in about 5 minutes with a bit of practice. SMPS's that either use standard linear IC's (723's, 555's, etc) or which are entirely discrete transistors are more of a pain, but again, there are circuits that turn up again and again. I've found that reading a handful of service manuals (especially TV or monitor manuals) will often turn up a circuit that's similar to yours. If there are any IC's in the PSU, post the numbers, and I'll see if I can guess what's going on. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 8 22:20:05 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com>; from "Uncle Roger" at Jun 6, 97 9:54 am Message-ID: <199706082120.24488@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > At 08:53 AM 6/6/97 -0700, you wrote: > >One of the things on my wish list is a digital camera so I can easily > >digitize photos of stuff like this. > > I have been trying to decide the best way to get images into digital form. > Naturally, a digital camera is one way, but not the only. There's also the > photo/scanner method, camcorder/video capture, and probably others. As I > see it, the pros/cons are: It seems to me that it would be fun if our pictures of classic hardware were themselves produced by a classic machine. And yes, there were image processing systems 10 - 15 years ago, some of which _occassionally_ turn up second-hand. I2S had a TV-rate ADC card for their image processing systems. It would take the output from a monochrome video camera with a few mods, and let you store images in the machine's RAM, and hence on disk. If you want colour, either add another 2 cards, or use filters to take separate R,G,B images with a monochrome camera (the subject is static, of course), and combine them later. Mind you, the cost of a 2nd-hand I2S processor + camera + interface electronics would almost certainly exceed the cost of a QuickCam or whatever. There are also 'classic' CCD cameras. There was a thing made by 'Datacopy' that had a linear CCD that was mechanically scanned across the frame (motor + leadscrew). There was certainly a PERQ interface for this (made by GHS/Audre' in Canada), and I guess others as well. These solutions sound a lot more fun than a modern PC-based system. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 8 19:50:13 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul References: <33976653.6106@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <339B5345.7702@unix.aardvarkol.com> This weekend was pretty quiet, though I did pick up a couple ColecoVision cartridges, including 'Turbo' with the 'Expansion Module #2' steering wheel and gas pedal, a set of Commodore 1312 paddles for the VIC-20 and a boxed 'Road Race' cartridge for the VIC-20. I also recieved the TRS-80 Mod. 4P from Barry. Thanks Barry! The weekend has basically been spent fooling with both the 4P and the ADAM. Does anyone have a spare data drive or 160k floppy for the ADAM? This next thing really doesn't fit into the group, but it is likely something that a good many of you may be interested in. I found an emulator on the web which takes actual ROM images from the coin-op arcade games, and plays them on either a PC, UNIX, Amiga, or Mac. There are quite a few games supported by the emulator at this point, and it seems to work quite well. I've play Q^bert, Zaxxon, and Donkey Kong on it. You even get to see the coin-op startup tests, if there were any. For the emulator as well as ROM's, check out: Http://www.wwnet.com/~lord13/mame/mame1.htm Jeff -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From jonathan at holly.ninja.ml.org Sun Jun 8 23:13:50 1997 From: jonathan at holly.ninja.ml.org (Jonathan Hunter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) Message-ID: <34FAB2360E0@holly.ninja.ml.org> > There are also 'classic' CCD cameras. There was a thing made by > 'Datacopy' that had a linear CCD that was mechanically scanned > across the frame (motor + leadscrew). There was certainly a PERQ > interface for this (made by GHS/Audre' in Canada), and I guess > others as well. > > These solutions sound a lot more fun than a modern PC-based system. Yes :-) I remember the PCWs we used to have at school. They had small scanning devices that replaced the print head on the printer. The computer would make the printer scan the entire sheet of paper, line by line, and in this way it built up the image... Not the fastest of scanners, but fun to watch it go! ___ _ _ ___ _ _| (_)(\)(-) | (-)(-)(\) From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 8 23:21:31 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: <34FAB2360E0@holly.ninja.ml.org>; from "Jonathan Hunter" at Jun 8, 97 11:13 pm Message-ID: <199706082221.26473@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I remember the PCWs we used to have at school. They had small scanning > devices that replaced the print head on the printer. The computer Wasn't there a thing called a 'Thunderscan' that fitted into an Apple Imagewriter and did essentially this? I also remember a do-it-yourself project on this in Byte (back in the days when it contained useful info...). I seem to recall it used a normal dot-matrix printer, and a photosensor that you fitted onto the carriage. I wonder how hard it would be to use a monitor (the smaller the better), some optical bits and a photomultiplier tube to make a flying-spot scanner. Seems like a fun project for a rainy day... -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sun Jun 8 17:43:14 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: <339B5345.7702@unix.aardvarkol.com> References: <33976653.6106@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970608234314.0068598c@post.keme.co.uk> At 17:50 08/06/97 -0700, you wrote: >This weekend was pretty quiet, though I did pick up a couple >ColecoVision cartridges, including 'Turbo' with the 'Expansion Module >#2' steering wheel and gas pedal, a set of Commodore 1312 paddles for >the VIC-20 and a boxed 'Road Race' cartridge for the VIC-20. I also >recieved the TRS-80 Mod. 4P from Barry. Thanks Barry! The weekend has >basically been spent fooling with both the 4P and the ADAM. Does anyone >have a spare data drive or 160k floppy for the ADAM? > > This next thing really doesn't fit into the group, but it is likely >something that a good many of you may be interested in. I found an >emulator on the web which takes actual ROM images from the coin-op >arcade games, and plays them on either a PC, UNIX, Amiga, or Mac. There >are quite a few games supported by the emulator at this point, and it >seems to work quite well. I've play Q^bert, Zaxxon, and Donkey Kong on >it. You even get to see the coin-op startup tests, if there were any. >For the emulator as well as ROM's, check out: > > Http://www.wwnet.com/~lord13/mame/mame1.htm > > Jeff >-- >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ >Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, >800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, >VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, >Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 >Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong >and Atari 2600VCS game consoles > >Well all i got in the UK was MArio Game & Watch, ZX81 and a Oric 1!!! btw great to see a list devoted to my Hobby. Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sun Jun 8 17:48:24 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970608234314.0068598c@post.keme.co.uk> References: <339B5345.7702@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970608234824.006a0308@post.keme.co.uk> Hi if i can help with any bits that may only be here in the UK then please mail me, You never know You may even be able to help me! Take Care Steve.. Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 17:52:19 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <970608115415.20811b53@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Andy Brobston wrote: > My first computer, on which I learned a *lot* about programming, was > the Mattel Aquarius, which I still own. I've been looking off and on > for information about it. The FAQ is nice, but I know of at least one > possible inaccuracy: the "Chess" game was released, I'm reasonably > sure, because I have it. The computer's not too bad of a player, > either, if I remember (it's been *years* since I've used the machine - > I'm living at college right now, and the Aquarius is at home). > > I know now that a lot of people didn't like the Aquarius. I thought it > was a really neat machine. I probably learned more from it that from > any other single learning tool I've ever had, with the *possible* > exception of my IIGS. My story mirrors yours. I, too, learned on the Aquarius, and I loved it. I then moved on to the Apple ][+. I have few regrets in my life, but of the more nerdy ones, I regret ever selling my Aquarius to finance the purchase of my Apple ][+. I had all the peripherals for it (including the thermal printer and datasette, and of course the expansion module with controllers and a 4K RAM carthridge). It was a neat little machine. I've been slowly putting together an Aquarius. I've had a manual forever that I can't remember where it came from, thanks to Jeff Hellige I recently picked up the computer itself, and the other day I picked up the expansion module with two controllers and a carthridge called "Biorhythms". Hopefully I'll find the datasette and thermal printer some day, but I still will never have all the neat programs I wrote for it. Although I do have a substantial number of them printed out on thermal paper, so I guess that is good enough, although the print is starting to fade. Ahhhh, I miss those days. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 18:06:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: <199706082120.24488@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > These solutions sound a lot more fun than a modern PC-based system. If not completely outrageous and insane. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 18:00:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Olivetti XP 1050/SP Message-ID: I saw an Olivetti XP 1050/SP that I passed up the other day cuz it looked like a common PC clone type dealy. Anyone have any information on this? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 18:09:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: <199706082221.26473@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > I remember the PCWs we used to have at school. They had small scanning > > devices that replaced the print head on the printer. The computer > > Wasn't there a thing called a 'Thunderscan' that fitted into an Apple > Imagewriter and did essentially this? Yes, it worked quite well. I saw this work on a friend's MAC backing in 1986. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 9 00:18:36 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 8, 97 4:06 pm Message-ID: <199706082318.28179@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > These solutions sound a lot more fun than a modern PC-based system. > > If not completely outrageous and insane. I hope you're suggesting that's a good reason _to_ use them :-) If not, what's insane about a graphics display system that fills an entire 6' rack, contains over 3000 DRAM chips (and about as many TTL devices to control everything), and has a service manual that contains the wonderful statement 'Repair the instrument using normal techniques. The supplied set of Engineering Drawings may be of help'. That is the entire section on maintenance and repair! > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From thompson at squirrel.tgsoft.com Sun Jun 8 18:21:36 1997 From: thompson at squirrel.tgsoft.com (mark thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: ZX81 In-Reply-To: <339B0DD1.37A0@rain.org> (message from Marvin on Sun, 08 Jun 1997 12:53:53 -0700) Message-ID: <19970608232136.2924.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com> I have a ZX81 for sale, with the 16K memory addon and a game cassette. First e-mail that reaches me with an address and the words: "Will pay shipping plus $16" gets it. I also have a couple of magazine samples that came with it. Naturally, if it works, it is a bonus - *no guarantees*. -mark From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 9 00:23:43 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Olivetti M10, etc In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 8, 97 4:00 pm Message-ID: <199706082323.28249@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > I saw an Olivetti XP 1050/SP that I passed up the other day cuz it looked > like a common PC clone type dealy. Anyone have any information on this? Talking of Olivetti machines, has anyone else ever come across the Olivetti M10? It's a laptop with a flip-up display (It doesn't open like a normal modern laptop - the upper face of the display when closed is the face where the image appears, but you can flip it up to a more convenient angle to use it), and appears to be related to the Tandy M100. The keyboard has 1 fewer key (I think it's either Graph or Code that's missing) than the M100, and has a different layout. The main PCB is different in layout to either of the M100 PCBs, but is electrically very similar (even down to component designations being the same). The built-in software is very similar (identical? apart from obvious changes to support the different keyboard and to say 'Olivetti' in start-up messages). > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 18:13:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > What was the serial number on the first Apple ][ computer? The answer is 2001. I guess no one cared. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 8 18:59:27 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: 8088s seattle comp. In-Reply-To: <199706081730.AA01490@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > What you missed was the ti9900 chip that was 3 years older and also 64 pins. > FYI the ti9900 chips was a 16bit cpu! Yes, I've since seen the guts of a TI-99/4A. I ignored it for many years, since the time I first played with a TI-99/4 at the computer store in Las Vegas, wrote a BASIC loop to count to a hundred and got there first counting out loud. I've been shown since that the machine was reasonably fast, as long as you avoided BASIC, but that was the only tool at the time. My fiancee has three of them, one still in shrink-wrap -- she credits a cassette-based algebra tutorial for the system is what got her through the math requirement to get her nursing degree from Rutgers (a bit of a joke for a guy who decided to major in math by the time he reached 4th grade in 1964, that tutorial covers material I had to know to get a decent grade in 8th grade -- and I'd always been told that public schools on the east coast were miles ahead of those I attended in Los Angeles, in more than one case by one of my teachers in Los Angeles -- when I moved from California to New Hampshire for my sophomore year of high school I learned that Santa Claus and Jesus weren't the only things my mother lied about when I was a kid -- but maybe the schools were better before the federal government leveled the playing field and made them "equal" ala Kurt Vonnegut's story "Harrison Bergeron".) All I know is that I can do a damn sight more useful work with a TRS-80 Model 4 or Color Computer than I've ever seen done with a TI-99 -- and I apologise for showing favoritism in this mailing list where I know damned well I should not play such favorites. (But I will continue to let others collect the machines with those 6502 processors -- never had it, never will). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 8 20:20:21 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > wrote for it. Although I do have a substantial number of them printed > out on thermal paper, so I guess that is good enough, although the print > is starting to fade. Gee, on my old thermal printouts, they never faded -- courtesy of many years of heat in Las Vegas and Los Angeles, the paper darkened. Same difference when you're trying to read what you typed in 1979. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 8 20:22:45 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > These solutions sound a lot more fun than a modern PC-based system. > If not completely outrageous and insane. > Sam Hey, they said we were insane when when we got involved with these silicon-based lifeforms when they were new. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 20:19:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: <199706082318.28179@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > If not completely outrageous and insane. > > I hope you're suggesting that's a good reason _to_ use them :-) > > If not, what's insane about a graphics display system that fills an entire > 6' rack, contains over 3000 DRAM chips (and about as many TTL devices to > control everything), and has a service manual that contains the wonderful > statement 'Repair the instrument using normal techniques. The supplied set > of Engineering Drawings may be of help'. That is the entire section on > maintenance and repair! Hmmmm...come to think of it, you've got a point. Finding the time for all this is an entirely different matter. By the time I got around to scanning in all my photos using such a classic contraption, the P100 clone system I use at home would be a classic itself. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 20:22:32 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: ZX81 In-Reply-To: <19970608232136.2924.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com> Message-ID: On 8 Jun 1997, mark thompson wrote: > I have a ZX81 for sale, with the 16K memory addon and a game > cassette. First e-mail that reaches me with an address and the > words: "Will pay shipping plus $16" gets it. > > I also have a couple of magazine samples that came with it. > > Naturally, if it works, it is a bonus - *no guarantees*. WILL PAY SHIPPING PLUS $16!!! (I'm hoping by typing it all in uppercase it will make my e-mail get there first :) Sam Ismail 4275-29 Rosewood Drive #161 Pleasanton, California 94588 Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 20:32:07 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: ZX81 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On 8 Jun 1997, mark thompson wrote: > > > I have a ZX81 for sale, with the 16K memory addon and a game > > cassette. First e-mail that reaches me with an address and the > > words: "Will pay shipping plus $16" gets it. > > > > I also have a couple of magazine samples that came with it. > > > > Naturally, if it works, it is a bonus - *no guarantees*. > > WILL PAY SHIPPING PLUS $16!!! > > (I'm hoping by typing it all in uppercase it will make my e-mail get > there first :) Damn it. Replied to the wrong address. Guess I moved too fast. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Sun Jun 8 21:03:12 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <970608210312.20812178@wartburg.edu> >My story mirrors yours. I, too, learned on the Aquarius, and I loved >it. I then moved on to the Apple ][+. I have few regrets in my life, >but of the more nerdy ones, I regret ever selling my Aquarius to finance >the purchase of my Apple ][+. I had all the peripherals for it >(including the thermal printer and datasette, and of course the expansion >module with controllers and a 4K RAM carthridge). I didn't have quite as much for it, probably. I had the mini-expander with controls, and four cassettes, which I think were D&D Treasures of Tarmin, Utopia, Night Stalker, and Biorhythms. I got Chess later as a gift. I didn't have the "official" data recorder, but I got a regular tape recorder to work once in a while for storage. I remember writing programs for it. I remember also typing in that what-seemed-so-long "Digital Clock" program from the manual. I left out all the REM statements because they were "optional," I thought from my programming experience and what the manual said. I didn't realize that all the branching statements went to those REM's. Eventually, I got it to work, and I thought it was really neat. I was easily entertained at age seven. When my parents' friends came over, their two kids and I had Utopia tournaments. Often, they got very mean, and we'd end up fighting because "you broke the agreement about not sinking my fishing boat," and one of us would retaliate by putting rebels on the other's island with all our money until the game got pointless because no one had anything left. I may still have the price list around somewhere - I know I had it a long time after buying anything would have been an option, but I don't know if it got thrown out or not. I bugged my parents about getting me a printer for it, but they never did, and I didn't have any money of my own (I was only between about six and eight). In my original list of computers, I forgot my Atari 2600, possibly because I didn't consider it a computer, but rather a video game machine. (Wasn't there a keyboard setup of some sort that you could get for it? I could be wrong about that.) I still have that at home, too. I don't remember all the games I had for it. I remember being really mad that the "Indy 500" "driving controls" wouldn't work as paddles with Warlords, and I never got the real paddle controls. I think we took Warlords back to the store. (I could, again, be mistaken about all these titles...) >Ahhhh, I miss those days. I hear ya! -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu http://www.wartburg.edu/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sun Jun 8 21:20:33 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > What was the serial number on the first Apple ][ computer? > > The answer is 2001. I guess no one cared. > Well I *was* going to say 0001 if that makes you feel better :) > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > Les From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 8 22:01:20 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: 8088s seattle comp. Message-ID: <199706090301.AA17358@world.std.com> > Yes, I've since seen the guts of a TI-99/4A. I ignored it for many years > since the time I first played with a TI-99/4 at the computer store in Las > Vegas, wrote a BASIC loop to count to a hundred and got there first > counting out loud. I've been shown since that the machine was reasonably > fast, as long as you avoided BASIC, but that was the only tool at the Basic was slow. But since I'd had the technico board for a few years before the TI99 I'd been into assembler. The TI9900 cpu is a bit slow as it was very memory intensive (registers AKA workspace was an allocated block of ram). IT was a real computer archetecture compared to the 8080. When compared to z80 at 2.5mhz or faster it was slower. But that was the spped they could get out of silicon and the ti99 tried to cost reduce it by narrowing the bus slowing it further. Still in many other ways it was a more sophisticated cpu with memory banking when that was rarely heard of. Allison From thedm at sunflower.com Sun Jun 8 22:52:41 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <199706090350.WAA03893@challenge.sunflower.com> I'f I remember correctly there was a "Keypad" that allowed you to enter BASIC code and a BASIC language cartridge. Seems I found the cartridge at a garage sale and used to have one, but could never find a working keypad. I have now abandoned the 2600 years ago in an attempt to get rid of some the toys I never "play" with anymore. I find myself re-buying many of the things i've sold. So my new rule is , unless I have two, I sell nothing. Bill ---------- > From: Andy Brobston > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Introduction > Date: Sunday, June 08, 1997 9:03 PM > > >My story mirrors yours. I, too, learned on the Aquarius, and I loved > >it. I then moved on to the Apple ][+. I have few regrets in my life, > >but of the more nerdy ones, I regret ever selling my Aquarius to finance > >the purchase of my Apple ][+. I had all the peripherals for it > >(including the thermal printer and datasette, and of course the expansion > >module with controllers and a 4K RAM carthridge). > > I didn't have quite as much for it, probably. I had the mini-expander > with controls, and four cassettes, which I think were D&D Treasures of > Tarmin, Utopia, Night Stalker, and Biorhythms. I got Chess later as a > gift. I didn't have the "official" data recorder, but I got a regular > tape recorder to work once in a while for storage. I remember writing > programs for it. I remember also typing in that what-seemed-so-long > "Digital Clock" program from the manual. I left out all the REM > statements because they were "optional," I thought from my programming > experience and what the manual said. I didn't realize that all the > branching statements went to those REM's. Eventually, I got it to > work, and I thought it was really neat. I was easily entertained at > age seven. When my parents' friends came over, their two kids and I > had Utopia tournaments. Often, they got very mean, and we'd end up > fighting because "you broke the agreement about not sinking my fishing > boat," and one of us would retaliate by putting rebels on the other's > island with all our money until the game got pointless because no one > had anything left. > > I may still have the price list around somewhere - I know I had it a > long time after buying anything would have been an option, but I don't > know if it got thrown out or not. I bugged my parents about getting me > a printer for it, but they never did, and I didn't have any money of > my own (I was only between about six and eight). > > In my original list of computers, I forgot my Atari 2600, possibly > because I didn't consider it a computer, but rather a video game > machine. (Wasn't there a keyboard setup of some sort that you could > get for it? I could be wrong about that.) I still have that at home, > too. I don't remember all the games I had for it. I remember being > really mad that the "Indy 500" "driving controls" wouldn't work as > paddles with Warlords, and I never got the real paddle controls. I > think we took Warlords back to the store. (I could, again, be mistaken > about all these titles...) > > >Ahhhh, I miss those days. > > I hear ya! > -- > Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu > http://www.wartburg.edu/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html > My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College > as a whole. From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 23:34:36 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <970608210312.20812178@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Andy Brobston wrote: > tape recorder to work once in a while for storage. I remember writing > programs for it. I remember also typing in that what-seemed-so-long > "Digital Clock" program from the manual. I left out all the REM > statements because they were "optional," I thought from my programming Oh yeah, I vaguely remember typing that in as well. > age seven. When my parents' friends came over, their two kids and I > had Utopia tournaments. Often, they got very mean, and we'd end up > fighting because "you broke the agreement about not sinking my fishing > boat," and one of us would retaliate by putting rebels on the other's > island with all our money until the game got pointless because no one > had anything left. Heh. I loved that game. Hopefully I'll find it at a thrift store or flea market someday. I alwso had Snafu, but it wasn't nearly as cool as Utopia. > I may still have the price list around somewhere - I know I had it a > long time after buying anything would have been an option, but I don't > know if it got thrown out or not. I bugged my parents about getting me > a printer for it, but they never did, and I didn't have any money of > my own (I was only between about six and eight). The only reason I ended up with all the peripherals is because this kid around the corner from me had one with ALL the peripherals (his parents were pretty well off and he was spoiled) and I offered to buy it all off of him for all the money I had in my pocket ($36). It was a score. I got the actual computer and datasette from one of those timeshare dealies where they used to offer a free computer or free video game if you would just come down and look at their lovely timeshare villas. I managed to convince my parents it was a sweet deal for them to blow an hour of their time so that I could get a free computer. I wasn't joking, since with the money I make today from a career that had its roots in my Aquarius, I shower them with nice gifts once and a while. So parents, take heed! It WILL be worth it someday! > In my original list of computers, I forgot my Atari 2600, possibly > because I didn't consider it a computer, but rather a video game > machine. (Wasn't there a keyboard setup of some sort that you could > get for it? I could be wrong about that.) I still have that at home, Yes there was. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From rws at eagle.ais.net Mon Jun 9 00:03:39 1997 From: rws at eagle.ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Dead PET for free In-Reply-To: from Sam Ismail at "May 22, 97 09:41:48 am" Message-ID: <199706090503.AAA00327@eagle.ais.net> For those who'd like to know, this machine has been saved from the dumpster and is in my living room. (I don't think it's so dead- it looks like a monitor problem to me.) This guy was close enough I drove over and picked it up this morning, along with a C=4040 disk drive. Can anyone tell me anything about this, as I am not a Commodore enthusiast? > I have a C=PET 4016 here that is in a serious state of disrepair. When I got > it, it wasn't working and I tried to fix it up to no avail. In it's current > state, it's little more than a big metal & plastic paperweight to me. I'm > GIVING IT AWAY (You pay S&H) to anyone on one condition: That you try to fix > 'er up or use the parts to fix another commodore computer. I don't want to > see this go to the dumpster, folks. It deserves better. Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From hans1 at filan00.grenoble.hp.com Mon Jun 9 00:46:37 1997 From: hans1 at filan00.grenoble.hp.com (Hans Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Chisolm Message-ID: <339B98BD.71E9@filan00.grenoble.hp.com> On Fri, 6 Jun 1997 Marvin Johnston wrote : > Wow, I think I am beginning to like this listserver! Only just beginning ;-) > It has an LCD screen with a decent keyboard on it. So far so good... > The size is approximately 12" wide x 8" > deep x 5" high and the LCD screen folds up typical of a portable. > It has a couple of standard bus size cards (one is missing) but uses > the header type connector (2 x 50?) instead of the gold fingers to > plug into the backplane. Nope, not a Gavilan which was was only a couple of inches tall and had no internal slots (for cards at least). > If this is a Gavilan, are docs, schematics, and parts still available? I doubt it, there used to be quite an active Gavilan group in Silicon Valley many years ago and if anyone has need I can try and dredge up some long forgotten names... Hans B Pufal From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 9 00:50:23 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Misc. References: <199706082113.24223@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <339B999F.125D@rain.org> A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > > > Ok, you have just put us all to eternal shame. Do you have a list of all > > > you've got? cuz I'm entirely interested to know. Or perhaps just an > > > excerpt of your more rare systems. Where the hell do you store it all? > > Wow.... This lot totally dwarfs my little collection (I think I have about > 150 machines, including calculators, but excluding interesting > peripherals), and I thought I was doing pretty well! 150 computers is doing VERY well, I just have a lot of friends who found a suc, er, someone to take the stuff so they don't have to throw it away :). Yesterday, another friend gave me a C64, disk drive, and color monitor. I started collecting sometime about 1986 and was fortunate in having quite a few friends in the computer business as well as space to store the stuff. Additionally, I help a local private school put on a "Computer Rummage Sale" and end up with a lot of stuff they couldn't sell. Hope I haven't given you the impression I am a junk collector :). On a more serious note, there is also a local Classic Computer club with a small (a dozen or so) but devoted membership who are extremely knowledgeable about a wide range of the older computers. From that group, I was given a couple of Jonos computers, TRS Model 4, a Smoke Signal Broadcasting BFD-16, an Altos system, and a number of other computers. I also have three other friends who, like myself, are interested in putting together a computer museum. The biggest problem is financing such a venture since to do a professional job, we would most likely need at least 5000 sq ft of building. > > > the earliest is probably the PDP 8i, and PDP 11/05. Of course the Mits > > Do you have any other minis? I find them a lot more interesting than > micros, as I think I've mentioned before, since you can actually > understand how the CPU works at gate level. > I have a bit of DEC stuff including a Minc (I think that is the correct spelling) that I have no idea what it was used for, a couple of 11/23s, and at least one 11/34. There is also a Kennedy Disk Unit, a 470 MB Hard Disk (probably for the Dec stuff) that is a rack mount, and a bunch of spare M and K series interface boards. One thing I am *really* glad now that I didn't get rid of are the engineering drawings and maintenance manuals for the PDP 8i, PDP 16, PDP 11/05, PDP 11/45, and some of the perpherals (RK05 disk unit and ???? memory). I spent about 6 weeks or so up at DEC in the early 70's and was able to get documentation for the things I was working on. > A tip : Get known where you work (and at church, clubs, etc) as somebody > who wants old computer and electronic 'junk'. It's amazing what you get > given - several times people have said 'Oh, we're about to throw this out, > do you want it' where 'this' is a complete computer system with all > manuals. > I am "known" :). That is the way I have gotten most of the stuff I have. Occassionally, I'll actually buy something (like the mint Xerox 820-II) but I try to avoid that if possible. I tend to overdo whatever I get into and I still have a 10 or so coin ops that I am starting to try and get rid of. At one time, I had about 50 of them and I wasn't even in the business! When people had machines that didn't work, I ended up with them. Of course, being able to repair them made things easier :). > > Another thing I am looking for are the docs and schematics for the Zenith > > H-67 Hard Disk sub-system used with the H-89. The H-67 has a bad power > > supply board, and without the schematics, it is a bit hard to > > troubleshoot. > > Power supplies are either linear or switchers. Linears are next-to-trivial > to sort out (at least if they use any of the standard regulator IC's), and > switching units can be repaired. If it was just that, it would be easy, but I think the HD and Floppy controllers are built onto the same board. As I recall, it is not a switcher but rather a linear type supply. I started into it a few years ago and decided at that time to wait until schematics were available. From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Mon Jun 9 02:10:51 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:45 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic Message-ID: <339BAC7B.6B4E@oboe.calpoly.edu> I apologize if this is a repeat question but I can't seem to find the previous post. What were the solutions to removing yellowing from the plastic cases? I bought a printer that looks terrible. Not sure what caused it so any suggestions helpful at this point. thanks, Greg From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 9 08:52:51 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: <339B999F.125D@rain.org>; from "Marvin" at Jun 08, 97 10:50 pm Message-ID: <199706090752.14637@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > > > > > > Ok, you have just put us all to eternal shame. Do you have a list of all > > > > you've got? cuz I'm entirely interested to know. Or perhaps just an > > > > excerpt of your more rare systems. Where the hell do you store it all? > > > > Wow.... This lot totally dwarfs my little collection (I think I have about > > 150 machines, including calculators, but excluding interesting > > peripherals), and I thought I was doing pretty well! > > 150 computers is doing VERY well, I just have a lot of friends who found Yeah, but I have been doing this seriously for just over 11 years (started 24th May 1986), and had a few machines before that. Needless to say I'm not going to stop collecting, hacking and enjoying these machines just because somebody else has more CPUs that I do. > a suc, er, someone to take the stuff so they don't have to throw it away :-). 'Unfortunately' most of my friends are also computer collectors, which means that I don't get offered fun toys that they happen to have. Of course the toys _are_ being preserved and used, which is a good thing. > :). Yesterday, another friend gave me a C64, disk drive, and color > monitor. I started collecting sometime about 1986 and was fortunate in > having quite a few friends in the computer business as well as space to > store the stuff. Additionally, I help a local private school put on a > "Computer Rummage Sale" and end up with a lot of stuff they couldn't > sell. Hope I haven't given you the impression I am a junk collector :). What's wrong with being a 'junk collector'? One of my first actions on getting this job was finding out what the policy was on raiding the skip (dumpster) (It was a 'free for all' - grab what you want..) and getting known by all those responsible for throwing stuff out... > On a more serious note, there is also a local Classic Computer club with > a small (a dozen or so) but devoted membership who are extremely > knowledgeable about a wide range of the older computers. From that > group, I was given a couple of Jonos computers, TRS Model 4, a Smoke > Signal Broadcasting BFD-16, an Altos system, and a number of other > computers. I also have three other friends who, like myself, are > interested in putting together a computer museum. The biggest problem > is financing such a venture since to do a professional job, we would > most likely need at least 5000 sq ft of building. Yep, that's something I ought to think of doing. Finding a building is a big problem, and finding the money to buy it is even worse, but at least I have the exhibits :-) > > > > > > the earliest is probably the PDP 8i, and PDP 11/05. Of course the Mits > > > > Do you have any other minis? I find them a lot more interesting than > > micros, as I think I've mentioned before, since you can actually > > understand how the CPU works at gate level. > > > > I have a bit of DEC stuff including a Minc (I think that is the correct > spelling) that I have no idea what it was used for, a couple of 11/23s, MINC = Modular INstrument Computer - basically a PDP11/03 or PDP11/23 controlled data logger. A very curious machine > and at least one 11/34. There is also a Kennedy Disk Unit, a 470 MB > Hard Disk (probably for the Dec stuff) that is a rack mount, and a bunch > of spare M and K series interface boards. One thing I am *really* glad Never had any K series. Got a large box (well, multiple boxes...) of R,S,B,G,A,M,W boards, though. I've also got the test boards, extenders, etc for repairing these machines (I got invited to clear a room that was used for 'self-maintenance' on PDP11's, and got a lot of fun toys as a result...) > now that I didn't get rid of are the engineering drawings and > maintenance manuals for the PDP 8i, PDP 16, PDP 11/05, PDP 11/45, and Those manuals are _very_ interesting, and _nothing_ would separate me from my pile of them -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 9 08:55:27 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: <339BAC7B.6B4E@oboe.calpoly.edu>; from "Greg Mast" at Jun 09, 97 12:10 (midnight) Message-ID: <199706090755.14650@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > I apologize if this is a repeat question but I can't seem to find the > previous post. > > What were the solutions to removing yellowing from the plastic cases? I > bought a printer that looks terrible. Not sure what caused it so any > suggestions helpful at this point. It's not (IMHO) always possible. If the yellowing is due to the previous owner smoking, then often a good clean-up (Electrolube foam cleaner is good here) will get it looking like new. Alas, the plastic used by a lot of manufacturers (DEC, for one) actually yellows with age and sunlight, and I've never managed to reverse it. Maybe lightly sanding the surface would help, but it would remove any labels and surface texture, and would be a lot of work. > > thanks, > > Greg > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Jun 9 07:38:14 1997 From: djenner at halcyon.com (Dave Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic References: <339BAC7B.6B4E@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <339BEB26.DC4@halcyon.com> Greg, I have found that a biodegradable solvent called "Citra-Solv" works well for most high-quality plastic cases. It's pretty potent stuff used full strength, so the trick is to put it on a cloth and rub down the case and then to clean it off with water. You probably want to use rubber gloves. If the case is really plastic, and not painted, it takes off the outer film. (If you leave it on full strength, it will dissolve the plastic!) You want to do just enough and not too much. Most cases come out looking new. Dave Greg Mast wrote: > > I apologize if this is a repeat question but I can't seem to find the > previous post. > > What were the solutions to removing yellowing from the plastic cases? I > bought a printer that looks terrible. Not sure what caused it so any > suggestions helpful at this point. > > thanks, > > Greg From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Mon Jun 9 08:34:42 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: old hardware Message-ID: <199706091334.JAA06285@wincom.net> Last fall I was given the remains of something(?) from a local municipal office. It has been in my garage all winter, and since our Canadian weather has finally warmed up a bit, I went out to have a look. The only identification that I can reach is on the two drives which are a few hundred pounds each and are Century Data Systems Model T80 A's. Can anyone tell me anything about them? There is also another rack about the same size, but it is buried in other junk and is not accessable. The deal also included a Calcomp 1041 plotter which runs the test plot, but doesn't want to talk to my Windows 95/486. Regards Charlie Fox From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 9 09:55:17 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Misc. Message-ID: <199706091455.AA26257@world.std.com> > I have a bit of DEC stuff including a Minc (I think that is the correct > spelling) that I have no idea what it was used for, a couple of 11/23s, Labratory computer designed for easy interface to programable instruments and other experiments. Allison From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jun 9 10:47:24 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970609085112.3d571966@ricochet.net> At 11:43 PM 6/8/97 +0100, you wrote: >>This weekend was pretty quiet, though I did pick up a couple >>ColecoVision cartridges, including 'Turbo' with the 'Expansion Module I managed to pick up an "HP Touch Accessory" (a touch screen add-on) new in the box and (though it's not really a computer) an Interactive Network console also in the box. I'm happy to find this list too! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 9 11:49:41 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: old hardware In-Reply-To: <199706091334.JAA06285@wincom.net> from "Charles E. Fox" at Jun 9, 97 09:34:42 am Message-ID: <9706091549.AA13766@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 798 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970609/5d02b083/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Mon Jun 9 11:32:50 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: 8088s seattle comp. In-Reply-To: <199706081730.AA01490@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199706091632.AA10529@interlock.ans.net> > > computers showed up where you didn't have to count the pins on the CPU, > > specifically the TRS-80 (later renamed the Model One). I remember the > > first time I looked down into a Model 16 and saw the MC68000 and wondered > > why the hell that thing wasn't climbing up the side of the Empire State > > Building. > > What you missed was the ti9900 chip that was 3 years older and also 64 pins. > FYI the ti9900 chips was a 16bit cpu! Some ASICs were put into 64 pin DIPs in the late 1970s as well. Of course, all of this 64 pin package talk pales in light of some IBM mainframes at the time, sporting Thermal Conduction Modules (air or water cooled multichip packages) with 800 to 900 pins jammed in a 9 square inch footprint. William Donzelli william@ans.net From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 9 11:44:52 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051B94B4@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Yellowing may be irreversible. I've been thinking of removing all electronics from a case, and soaking it in dilute bleach solution overnight. I did find a great method for removing permanent marker from textured plastic. Cameo copper cleaner powder works great and doesn't harm the texture. For other stains, I use a Scotch Brite pad of the type that says it's safe on fiberglass. I'd sure like to find a good method for cleaning keyboards. Kai > ---------- > From: Greg Mast[SMTP:gmast@polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, June 09, 1997 12:10 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Cleaning Plastic > > I apologize if this is a repeat question but I can't seem to find the > previous post. > > What were the solutions to removing yellowing from the plastic cases? > I > bought a printer that looks terrible. Not sure what caused it so any > suggestions helpful at this point. > > thanks, > > Greg > From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 9 11:50:02 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: How to read/write TRS-80 diskettes from PC? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051B94C1@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Does anyone know how to read/write TRS-80 Model I format diskettes with a PC? I have a CompatiCard II and a Copy II Option Board. I assume the Option Board is able to copy TRS-80 diskettes (I hope, just got it this weekend and haven't tried yet) but I need to actually write files. Sydex 22Disk appears to support only CP/M formats. Any ideas? thanks Kai From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon Jun 9 12:00:18 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: <199706090755.14650@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: I've always just used those blue brillo pad thingys. They generally do well at taking off a bunch of hard to remove stuff (tape spooge, stains, etc.) Sometimes when I'm REALLY bored I take the keyboard apart (keycaps, etc.) and scrub them up too. Real satisfying to see a 12 year old machine look like new... Les From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 9 12:54:03 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051B94B4@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Yellowing may be irreversible. I've been thinking of removing all > electronics from a case, and soaking it in dilute bleach solution > overnight. > > I did find a great method for removing permanent marker from textured > plastic. Cameo copper cleaner powder works great and doesn't harm the > texture. Hmmm, sounds good. Where can we find this? I usually just scrub it off with a Scotch abrasive wash sponge, but of course this mars the surface, although not horribly. I'm experimenting with a cleaner right now based on orange citrus juices called Amazing Orange or something silly. It lifts grease off like THAT! And I mean like THAT! The most common application for me is some thrift stores mark the prices on units with grease pens. This takes it right off, in a FLASH! And I mean in a FLASH! I bought this stuff from a home&garden show. I'll get the real name and an ordering address if anyone wants to try it. Its sorta expensive though. > I'd sure like to find a good method for cleaning keyboards. Aha! I just came up with a great method. Go out and get yourself a medium-stiff bristled plastic brush, with at least 1 inch bristles. Then apply your favorite cleaning agent, such as Formula 409 or what have you (I use an Amway product called L.O.C. which works great) and scrub in a circular motion. The keys shouldn't be harmed physically as long as you don't jam the brush into them and after a short while all the dirt on top as well as around the keys will be lifted. Of course, you still have to deal with all the crap tucked away under the keys, and there's no way around this other than to lift all the keys out and then clean the under-surface. I did this with a grungy-assed Apple //e keyboard the other day and it came out looking fresh. Bill mentions sticking a keyboard in a dishwasher. Bill, I assume you've done this, and it's OK? I would think that with the heat of drying and all it would kill the components. > > Kai > > > ---------- > > From: Greg Mast[SMTP:gmast@polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu] > > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > Sent: Monday, June 09, 1997 12:10 AM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: Cleaning Plastic > > > > I apologize if this is a repeat question but I can't seem to find the > > previous post. > > > > What were the solutions to removing yellowing from the plastic cases? > > I > > bought a printer that looks terrible. Not sure what caused it so any > > suggestions helpful at this point. > > > > thanks, > > > > Greg > > > Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 9 12:56:28 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > I've always just used those blue brillo pad thingys. They generally do > well at taking off a bunch of hard to remove stuff (tape spooge, stains, > etc.) Sometimes when I'm REALLY bored I take the keyboard apart (keycaps, > etc.) and scrub them up too. Real satisfying to see a 12 year old machine > look like new... Regarding "tape spooge" (what a great moniker, if not gross) this is the bane of my existence. I hate that shit. I went out and got some stuff called Goof Off from Home Depot which was supposed to do away with that stuff but it didn't work very well. I didn't try it on anything metal yet, but most of my problems are with people putting velcro with the sticky backs on plastic cases. I tried cleaning some plastic with tape spooge on it and it just melted the damn thing. Anyone have any ideas? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 9 14:25:04 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 9, 97 10:56:28 am Message-ID: <9706091825.AA05438@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 999 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970609/94805377/attachment.ksh From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 9 13:34:54 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic Message-ID: <199706091832.NAA20541@challenge.sunflower.com> I've found that instead of bug and tar remover, I use charcoal starter. Originally I used this on my car, at .79cents vs 3.bucks. Works well on machines too. To remove stenciling on computers I use fingernail polish remover, BUT DON'T get it on printed LOGOS! Bill ---------- > From: Tim Shoppa > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Cleaning Plastic > Date: Monday, June 09, 1997 2:25 PM > > > Regarding "tape spooge" (what a great moniker, if not gross) this is the > > bane of my existence. I hate that shit. I went out and got some stuff > > called Goof Off from Home Depot which was supposed to do away with that > > stuff but it didn't work very well. I didn't try it on anything metal > > yet, but most of my problems are with people putting velcro with the > > sticky backs on plastic cases. I tried cleaning some plastic with tape > > spooge on it and it just melted the damn thing. Anyone have any ideas? > > I've got a bottle of stuff labeled "Bug and Tar remover" that seems to > work just fine for me. I bought it several years ago, and it's > chock-full of all sorts of hydrocarbons and ketones. If environmental > regulations haven't completely banned the sale of this stuff, I'd > expect you can still find it in automotive stores. > > Many of the fluorocarbon-based cleaners did a better job on sticker > residue, but these are all but impossible to get anymore. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Jun 9 14:08:15 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970609150815.00a5db30@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Sam Ismail said: >Regarding "tape spooge" (what a great moniker, if not gross) this is the >bane of my existence. I hate that shit. I went out and got some stuff >called Goof Off from Home Depot which was supposed to do away with that >stuff but it didn't work very well. I didn't try it on anything metal >yet, but most of my problems are with people putting velcro with the >sticky backs on plastic cases. I tried cleaning some plastic with tape >spooge on it and it just melted the damn thing. Anyone have any ideas? I have a great idea... I have been working on refurbishing several Tandy 200 laptops for a friend, and one of the laptops had about a dozen stickers on it (including bumper stickers -- the worst! ;-( ) ... a few stickers came off, but most left "sticker tracks". I went down to my local hardware, and bought a quart of straight Naphtha. =$2.79 locally= (It's a component of lighter fluid...) It is *highly* -- I say again -- *highly* flammable. So flammable, *thinking* about having a cigarette will touch this stuff off. But: It doesn't melt plastic (well, maybe if you soaked it overnight or somesuch foolish thing) and neutralizes tape spooge (one of my favorite "words," BTW) in the blink of an eye! The fumes are kinda harmful, and it evaporates so quickly it will suck the moisture from your hands (those with sensitive skin, wear rubber gloves) so don't leave the cap off for a weekend in the basement... you'll be greeted with a highly explosive basement and no mo naphtha. This is one of the few solvents that easily dissolves wax (candle, paraffin, and others) and I learned about it while learning to make candles. It works good for clear wax as well, but it won't get a stain from the dye out, that I've ever seen. So it may work well on removing grease pencil wax, but if the dye in the grease pencil has stained the plastic, try another of the fine suggestions here. Sam, Regarding your post about L.O.C. (which stands for Liquid Organic Cleaner, BTW, and was Amway's first product over 35 years ago) do you dilute it first (as per instructions?) L.O.C. mixed 1:1 (water:LOC) is also good at getting crayon off of walls (as always, hope there's decent quality paint when kids are around) and mixed 2:1 works great for getting the green gunk out of the grooves of your golf clubs! Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 9 14:36:54 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Teaneck Findings Message-ID: <199706091936.AA19825@world.std.com> > > > DEC KBD01 - a true whatsit - 8085 based, in one of the LSI-11/2 deskto > > > boxes, RS-232 (maybe) and another D connector on back. Any clues? I > > > no clue. (I purchased this as well) > > > > IF the box is a BDV11VA (or that size 13x12x4.5) it's a remote diagnosti > > port. Plugs in to the console port and does a modem link for remote use. > > For VAXen with that Remote Diagnostic Module? For late PDP-11s/vax11s and it plugged into the console port and subbed for same. By doing that all boot console functions were available even if the system was otherwise down. Not all PDPs supported this. An old item. Allison From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 9 14:47:23 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Removing adhesive (RE: Cleaning Plastic) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051CF20D@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I recommend "3M General Purpose Adhesive Remover", which is inexpensive and comes in a red and white quart-size can that will last you until roughly the year 2020. Some hardware stores carry it, but it's most reliably found at an auto paint supply store (check your local yellow pages). I once used this stuff to remove an entire vinyl top from a '68 Chevy, so I can tell you it really does work, and does not appear to harm either your skin or any kind of plastic. Doesn't smell very bad, and isn't highly flammable. In response to an earlier question, Cameo copper cleaner can be found in most any grocery store or general goods store. Kai > ---------- > From: Sam Ismail[SMTP:dastar@crl.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, June 09, 1997 10:56 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Cleaning Plastic > > On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > > I've always just used those blue brillo pad thingys. They generally > do > > well at taking off a bunch of hard to remove stuff (tape spooge, > stains, > > etc.) Sometimes when I'm REALLY bored I take the keyboard apart > (keycaps, > > etc.) and scrub them up too. Real satisfying to see a 12 year old > machine > > look like new... > > Regarding "tape spooge" (what a great moniker, if not gross) this is > the > bane of my existence. I hate that shit. I went out and got some > stuff > called Goof Off from Home Depot which was supposed to do away with > that > stuff but it didn't work very well. I didn't try it on anything metal > > yet, but most of my problems are with people putting velcro with the > sticky backs on plastic cases. I tried cleaning some plastic with > tape > spooge on it and it just melted the damn thing. Anyone have any > ideas? > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, > Writer, Jackass > From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 8 18:57:11 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius Message-ID: Of course, Sam and others have taken to talking about the Mattel Aquarius lately, but I've never seen a mention of the Radofin version, which other than the lack of 'Mattel' logos and the change to the model number and label on the bottom of the machine, is identical. Were many of them sold? Does anyone else out there have one? About all I've been able to learn is that since Radofin was the actual manufacturer of both versions, they continued to produce it for an unknown length of time after Mattel dropped it from their line. There's not even a mention of it on any of the Aquarius references on the web. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Coleco ADAM, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, Model 4, and Model 4P, plus Odyssey2, Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 9 15:01:45 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: How to read/write TRS-80 diskettes from PC? Message-ID: <199706092001.AA19197@world.std.com> > Does anyone know how to read/write TRS-80 Model I format diskettes with > a PC? > > I have a CompatiCard II and a Copy II Option Board. I assume the Option > Board is able to copy TRS-80 diskettes (I hope, just got it this weekend > and haven't tried yet) but I need to actually write files. Sydex 22Disk > appears to support only CP/M formats. TRS-80 disks are single density, single sided, soft sector non-cpm unless after market cpm is installed. The original disk controller was wd1771. There is two form to trs-80 disks those from TRSDOS and those from DiskBASIC. As far as I remember(18 years!) they were compatble with each other. Their structure was very unlike CP/M and it used a FAT style of directory. Now to add to the pain, there were various mods that allowed for double density and even two sided disk drives. If so the controller was wd1793 in the form of a piggy back card. Knowing the controller used is important as some of the system out there created disk formats that are completely unreadable by anything other than a system with 1771/1793! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 9 15:01:53 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Cleaning boards/keyboards Message-ID: <199706092001.AA19349@world.std.com> > Bill mentions sticking a keyboard in a dishwasher. Bill, I assume you've > done this, and it's OK? I would think that with the heat of drying and > all it would kill the components. Over the years I've done this to de-crud boards, keyboards and equipment dropped in salt water. Water generally will not harm electronics save for stuff made of paper liek speakers. The real problem is insuring it is completely dry after cleaning. A warm, under 180F oven works for this. Removing keycaps and the like first is a good thing. Also some keyboards by their contruction will trap water if it gets in and baking it out is the only way short of sometimes destructive disassembly. FYI, water gets coffee out the best if there ie a small amout of soap to break surface tension. Try to use soaps that are not chemically active and corrosion forming. Woolite is good in the sink for this and most dishwasher soaps are ok. Logic boards like DEC modules, motherboards and the like clean well in the dishwasher. I've done boards in the sink with a soft bristle brush and woolite and dried them by blotting with several paper towels and oven dry. The sometimes look better than new. Remember (not a joke!) Rinse well when doing this. FYI: resist the temptation to vacuum as the moving air can cause static charges that can do subtle and long term damage to ICs, even ttl. Dishwasing is actually safer. Allison From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 9 21:26:14 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: How to read/write TRS-80 diskettes from PC? In-Reply-To: <199706092001.AA19197@world.std.com>; from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 9, 97 4:01 pm Message-ID: <199706092026.2695@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > TRS-80 disks are single density, single sided, soft sector non-cpm unless > after market cpm is installed. The original disk controller was wd1771. > > There is two form to trs-80 disks those from TRSDOS and those from > DiskBASIC. As far as I remember(18 years!) they were compatble with each > other. Their structure was very unlike CP/M and it used a FAT style of > directory. As I remember it : Model 1 : Single sided, single density, using an FD1771 controller. The default was 35 tracks, but some aftermarket DOS's (LDOS, NewDOS, etc) allowed you to have 40 (or 80 if you could afford better drives). TRS-DOS used a special data marker on the directory cylinder only. Just about the only thing that could write them was the 1771. Most 'Double Density kits' (a kludge board which held a 179x controller + support devices) retained the 1771 just to write these markers. LDOS, etc used normal markers on all cylinders, and were generally easier to read on other machines. Model 3/4 (Same controller). Single Sided, Double Denisty, 1793 controller. The Address markers were now normal on all cylinders (note, a model 3 or 4 couldn't write a model 1 TRS-DOS disk!). 3rd party DOS's were generally more compatable between the M1 and M3 than TRS-DOS was. Disk Basic didn't really come into it - Basic was just a program that ran under TRS-DOS (and used the ROM basic a lot), and used (AFAIK) normal TRS-DOS calls for disk I/O I'll mention the CoCo as well - this used a 1793 or 1773 controller chip, and double density recording. Although all CoCo disk controllers could read/write each others disks, there were OS considerations to worry about. The disk controller cartridge contained a set of extensions to Basic to allow it to load and save files to disk. Alas, Tandy didn't document the disk I/O calls (apart from read/write sector), so it was difficult to use the disk from application programs. There was a thing called colour TRS-DOS which was used by a lot of Tandy-supplied applications (Color Scripsit, EDTASM, etc) which provided a standard set of file handling calls - from memory the source to this is in the EDTASM manual. Fortunately, the disks for colour TRS-DOS and those for plain disk basic were 100% compatable. Serious users ran OS-9, which had a somewhat unix-like file system. Needless to say, it was incompatible with disk basic, although there was an OS-9 utility to read disk basic disks. All TRS-DOS's (M1, M3, Colour, etc) put the directory cylinder near the middle of the disk (cylinder 17 on a 35 track disk). The directory had 2 other tables associated with it - the GAT (Granule Allocation Table - a granule was the smallest thing you could allocate, and was 1/2 or 1/3 of a track), and the HIT (Hash Index Table - filenames were hashed (using some algorithm that I've long forgotten), and then the result was used to speed up directory searches). Since the TRS-DOS directory was near the middle of the disk, and the OS-9 one (like unix) was at the start, it was possible to create a CoCo disk with both OS-9 and disk basic files on it. You had to be careful to create dummy files that covered the areas used by the other OS, but it was done, even by Tandy, who supplied some TRS-DOS utilities on the OS-9 level 2 disks (and then forgot to mention this in the manual....) If anyone has a model 1 still working, boot up TRS-DOS 2.3 (the standard one), and at the prompt type BOOT/SYS.WHO (or should it be RUN BOOT/SYS.WHO ?). Do not press enter yet. Now hold down 2,4,6 with one hand and press enter. The result is quite interesting. Explaining _why_ it happens, and the history behind it is something you can pester me for sometime... > > Now to add to the pain, there were various mods that allowed for double > density and even two sided disk drives. If so the controller was wd1793 The doublesided mods tended to use the 3rd drive select line as a side select line, and could (in theory) be used on a single-density-only model 1 > in the form of a piggy back card. > > Knowing the controller used is important as some of the system out there > created disk formats that are completely unreadable by anything other than > a system with 1771/1793! -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 9 15:30:15 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970609150815.00a5db30@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I went down to my local hardware, and bought a quart of straight Naphtha. > =$2.79 locally= (It's a component of lighter fluid...) It is *highly* -- I > say again -- *highly* flammable. So flammable, *thinking* about having a > cigarette will touch this stuff off. > > The fumes are kinda harmful, and it evaporates so quickly it will suck the > moisture from your hands (those with sensitive skin, wear rubber gloves) so > don't leave the cap off for a weekend in the basement... you'll be greeted > with a highly explosive basement and no mo naphtha. Sounds good. I'll have to go out and get me some. And maybe I'll use it to clean my computers with too. :) > the dye out, that I've ever seen. So it may work well on removing grease > pencil wax, but if the dye in the grease pencil has stained the plastic, > try another of the fine suggestions here. Like I said about this citrus orange cleaner, it does the trick. Naphta sounds fun though, and it would be cool to say also, if it wasn't a synonym for a trade agreement acronym. > Sam, > Regarding your post about L.O.C. (which stands for Liquid Organic Cleaner, > BTW, and was Amway's first product over 35 years ago) do you dilute it > first (as per instructions?) > > L.O.C. mixed 1:1 (water:LOC) is also good at getting crayon off of walls > (as always, hope there's decent quality paint when kids are around) and > mixed 2:1 works great for getting the green gunk out of the grooves of your > golf clubs! I used it from a spray bottle which has a dial where you can adjust the dilution anywhere from pure water to pure LOC. I normally have it on 3 or 4, which is 1:1 (water/LOC) and like .5:1 respectively. Too much LOC just makes it too soapy. It seems you definitely need the water for a good cleaning solution, although soaking in LOC sometimes does wonders. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Jun 9 15:52:42 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: <199705301240.9935@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 1997 (eons and eons ago), A.R. Duell wrote: > > Does the PS/2 not have any 5.25" drive bays? Weird. :) I'm not an IBMer > > so I don't know these things, though I *think* one of the machines I used > > to do CAD work on was a PS/2 of some flavour. > > No, AFAIK the PS/2 cases had (special!) 3.5" bays only. Brilliant. :) Reminds me of the "special" PCMCIA slot on my A1200, but I guess that couldn't have been avoided. > If it's the same as the XT external floppy connector (and I think it is!), > the 34 wires of the standard floppy connector are connected to the > 'bottom' (higher numbered) pins on the 37 pin D plug. Pins 1,2,20 are no > connection, pin 3 is wire 2, pin 4 is wire 4, pin 5 is wire 6, etc. Pins > 21-37 are all grounded. > > It's a standard DC37 connector, available from any good electronics parts > place, I think. You can get solder, PCB mount or IDC versions. Excellent! Thanks for the info! As I said earlier, I have a use for this drive, but I don't really want to modify it. Hopefully I'll be able to feed a ribbon cable with the 37-pin D connector on it out of my Amiga's Sidecar. I hope there wouldn't be problems with noise, etc, over lengthy cabling? I also wouldn't mind using it as an external 5.25" drive for my Amigas, but I guess that would take some added trickery. > > Heh. I couldn't even get mine apart, because of the two six-pointed > > screws on the bottom. The screws have a lump in the middle so I can't use > > a flat-blade screwdriver as I did when I had a similar problem opening my > > Mac 512K. > > Tamperproof TORX screws. Drivers for them are available from good tool > shops in the UK - I have a reasonably complete set to deal with such > things... Well, I haven't seen any around here (Canada) but perhaps I haven't been looking hard enough. I also haven't been trying to get the drive open because other things have come up. It's funny how I can be out of school for the summer, unemployed, and STILL not have enough time for all the stuff I want to do. > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 9 16:55:23 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 9, 97 01:30:15 pm Message-ID: <9706092055.AA12944@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 375 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970609/87fc31c5/attachment.ksh From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 9 15:40:08 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: Removing adhesive (RE: Cleaning Plastic) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051CF20D@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > I recommend "3M General Purpose Adhesive Remover", which is inexpensive > and comes in a red and white quart-size can that will last you until > roughly the year 2020. Some hardware stores carry it, but it's most > reliably found at an auto paint supply store (check your local yellow > pages). > > In response to an earlier question, Cameo copper cleaner can be found in > most any grocery store or general goods store. Ok, there have been so many cleansers thrown around in the last 12 hours that I think its time to compile a list of these with their respective uses and throw it in the FAQ. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 9 22:03:54 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:46 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: ; from "Doug Spence" at Jun 9, 97 4:52 pm Message-ID: <199706092103.4604@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > If it's the same as the XT external floppy connector (and I think it is!), > > the 34 wires of the standard floppy connector are connected to the > > 'bottom' (higher numbered) pins on the 37 pin D plug. Pins 1,2,20 are no > > connection, pin 3 is wire 2, pin 4 is wire 4, pin 5 is wire 6, etc. Pins > > 21-37 are all grounded. > > > > It's a standard DC37 connector, available from any good electronics parts > > place, I think. You can get solder, PCB mount or IDC versions. > > Excellent! Thanks for the info! As I said earlier, I have a use for this > drive, but I don't really want to modify it. Hopefully I'll be able to > feed a ribbon cable with the 37-pin D connector on it out of my Amiga's > Sidecar. If you have got a standard 34 wire floppy cable (that will link to a normal PC drive), you can crimp an IDC DC37-S connector on to it (insert the cable so that pins 1,2,20 have no wires on them), and the plug the drive in. Apart from drive select and motor run signal problems (the 'PC twist' is the root of these), it should work fine. > > I hope there wouldn't be problems with noise, etc, over lengthy cabling? Well, at one time floppy cables were properly terminated (a 150 Ohm resistor pack in the drive furthest from the controller), and could be quite long. Alas, termination was considered too hard for the average user, so modern drives have 1k pull-ups (they are in no sense terminators), and nothing else. They may therefore fail to work on long cables. If you are feeling hackish, you might try adding some 150 Ohm termination resistors to the last drive on the cable (or replacing the 1k ones, which may well be microscopic SMD ones, alas) and seeing if that helps. > > > Heh. I couldn't even get mine apart, because of the two six-pointed > > > screws on the bottom. The screws have a lump in the middle so I can't use > > > a flat-blade screwdriver as I did when I had a similar problem opening my > > > Mac 512K. > > > > Tamperproof TORX screws. Drivers for them are available from good tool > > shops in the UK - I have a reasonably complete set to deal with such > > things... > > Well, I haven't seen any around here (Canada) but perhaps I haven't been > looking hard enough. I also haven't been trying to get the drive open > because other things have come up. I did say _good_ tool shops. I know perhaps 4 places in the UK (There are obviously more) that keep them, and an awful lot that don't. I've lost count of the number of different 'unscrewing tools' I use - but it's a rather large number. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Jun 9 16:08:57 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970530090544.009266e0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >OK, that makes it useful. Would you happen to know what the pinout is of > >the 37-pin connector, so that I can try to make use of the drive without > >modification? Is it even possible to buy a matching female 37-pin > >connector? > > IIRC, it's just straight thru with the last/first 3 pins unused... but I'd > have to look at the cable or ring some pins to be sure (and yes, I'm a > packrat...). Aren't we all? Heck, I know my place is getting more and more congested with stuff. I've got old computer books all over my floor, along with some boxed Intellivision carts, a small 5-slot S-100 motherboard I picked up a week ago, and a boxed, complete Odyssey system (the original one) I haven't found room for anywhere else yet. (I'm not really into game systems, but I keep finding them and saying to myself 'I wonder if this is cool' and leaving with them.) Anyway, eventually I'll get around to building an extension cable for that drive. :) > All CoCo controllers take Shugart standard drives (now called IBM standard > drives... IBM's taking over again!) altho RSDOS limits you to 35 tracks, > SSDD, 156K disks (the original Shugart drives) without patches... which (of > course) I have. RSDOS can handle a max of 2 DSDD 80 track drives with > patches (more accurately... they look like 4 SSDD 80 track drives, with :2 > the backside of :0 and :3 the backside of :1) but 1.44Meg storage thru > RSDOS is really good! OS-9 can handle 3 DSDD 80trk drives! OS-9 is one OS I've been wanting to see running. Hopefully I can find a CoCo controller or two to plug some drives into, and find someone locally who has RSDOS and OS-9. Seeing as you seem to know about the CoCo machines, I may as well ask you: What the heck is this CoCo Max cartridge I picked up a year or so ago? It looks like it's some kind of video digitizer or something... but then it could just be some kind of wacky high-res display cartridge. The sticker has been punctured over the screw, so all I see is "HI-RES PUT MODULE", and on the underside is a small sticker that says "COCO MAX HI-RES PACK - COLORWARE INC." Know anything about it? > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should > zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 9 15:41:05 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Of course, Sam and others have taken to talking about the Mattel Aquarius > lately, but I've never seen a mention of the Radofin version, which other than > the lack of 'Mattel' logos and the change to the model number and label on the > bottom of the machine, is identical. Were many of them sold? Does anyone > else out there have one? About all I've been able to learn is that since > Radofin was the actual manufacturer of both versions, they continued to > produce it for an unknown length of time after Mattel dropped it from their > line. There's not even a mention of it on any of the Aquarius references on > the web. I'd never even heard of it until you mentioned it to me previous. I would think that it's kinda rare. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Jun 9 16:21:00 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Buzzing PS? In-Reply-To: <199705301344.15723@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > Hi, > > > > The Apple /// I picked up last weekend has one annoying flaw, and that is ^^^ > > a *very* loud power supply, that seems to get louder the longer the > > machine is powered up. > > Is this noise normal, or is it a sign that something is about to go > > kablooie? And if something's wrong, is there any way of knowing which > > part is about to go? > > No it's not normal. The Apple uses a switching type supply, and there > shouldn't be any 60Hz waveforms anywhere after the mains > rectifier/smoothing cap. If it's buzzing there is a problem OK, here's a question from an electronics-know-nothing (which hopefully isn't in the FAQ, else I'll look like a complete idiot :) ): How do I tell the difference between a switching supply and a linear supply? Just from looking at it. I get the idea that linear supplies have honking big transformers in them, and switching supplies don't. > It _may_ be nothing more than the mains filter coil (if it has one), or it > may be a dried up smoothing capacitor (the 2 big ones rated at about 300V) > that needs replacing. You could try those first. I don't remember there being any very large capcitors. (Nothing like in my PET 2001, anyway... hooo boy! ;) ). I'll take another look inside to see if I can spot the ones you're talking about. > Apple PSUs are easy to check. The 6 way cable unplugs from the main board, > and the wiring is given in the Apple ][ reference manual. Just connect a > voltmeter between the +5V output and the ground wire (red and black?) and > power up. I don't think you need a dummy load. If you don't get 5V when > you power up, you need to sort out that PSU. Well, the ][ and /// use different connectors, but I noticed that the ///'s supply has info on the PCB. The supply works, BTW. As I mentioned, the system powers up and runs as if nothing were wrong. The noise the power supply makes just makes me nervous. > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 9 17:24:40 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: <199706092103.4604@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 9, 97 10:03:54 pm Message-ID: <9706092124.AA30415@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1779 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970609/cfebf007/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 9 17:30:19 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Buzzing PS? In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Jun 9, 97 05:21:00 pm Message-ID: <9706092130.AA25915@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 925 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970609/7d66e4dd/attachment.ksh From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Jun 9 16:39:25 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 31 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > > I found out that there is a monitor built into the machine, too (press > > Control-OpenApple-Reset) but apart from dumping memory eight bytes at a > > time and the ability to change the values stored in bytes, I can't figure > > out if the monitor can do anything. Some of the hardware is very Apple > > The monitor does a lot. Try typing L and hitting return and you will get > a disassembly. You can specify an address first, like F800L to start > disassembly at $F800. Actually this doesn't work. The ///'s monitor isn't identical to the ]['s monitor. That's why I was asking. > > I took the machine apart, too, and I found a place for a battery on the > > motherboard, with no battery or battery cover in it. Does the /// have a > > system clock? > > Yes. Do you know what kind of battery it's supposed to take? (And why they put it in such an inaccessible place on the motherboard?) > > Can the /// emulate a ][? > > Yes it can, but you need the emulation system disk. Cool! Not that I need another ][, I just think it's good that they allowed this kind of functionality. Though I suppose, in a way, they felt they had to. > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 9 16:48:22 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Buzzing PS? Message-ID: <199706092146.QAA04091@challenge.sunflower.com> I have a /// for parts! ---------- > From: Doug Spence > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Buzzing PS? > Date: Monday, June 09, 1997 4:21 PM > > > On Fri, 30 May 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > The Apple /// I picked up last weekend has one annoying flaw, and that is > ^^^ > > > a *very* loud power supply, that seems to get louder the longer the > > > machine is powered up. > > > > > > Is this noise normal, or is it a sign that something is about to go > > > kablooie? And if something's wrong, is there any way of knowing which > > > part is about to go? > > > > No it's not normal. The Apple uses a switching type supply, and there > > shouldn't be any 60Hz waveforms anywhere after the mains > > rectifier/smoothing cap. If it's buzzing there is a problem > > OK, here's a question from an electronics-know-nothing (which hopefully > isn't in the FAQ, else I'll look like a complete idiot :) ): How do I > tell the difference between a switching supply and a linear supply? Just > from looking at it. > > I get the idea that linear supplies have honking big transformers in them, > and switching supplies don't. > > > It _may_ be nothing more than the mains filter coil (if it has one), or it > > may be a dried up smoothing capacitor (the 2 big ones rated at about 300V) > > that needs replacing. You could try those first. > > I don't remember there being any very large capcitors. (Nothing like in > my PET 2001, anyway... hooo boy! ;) ). I'll take another look inside to > see if I can spot the ones you're talking about. > > > > > Apple PSUs are easy to check. The 6 way cable unplugs from the main board, > > and the wiring is given in the Apple ][ reference manual. Just connect a > > voltmeter between the +5V output and the ground wire (red and black?) and > > power up. I don't think you need a dummy load. If you don't get 5V when > > you power up, you need to sort out that PSU. > > Well, the ][ and /// use different connectors, but I noticed that the > ///'s supply has info on the PCB. > > The supply works, BTW. As I mentioned, the system powers up and runs as > if nothing were wrong. The noise the power supply makes just makes me > nervous. > > > -- > > -tony > > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill > > Doug Spence > ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 9 16:48:37 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius Message-ID: <199706092146.QAA04094@challenge.sunflower.com> Wish I had one. ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Radofin Aquarius > Date: Monday, June 09, 1997 3:41 PM > > On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > Of course, Sam and others have taken to talking about the Mattel Aquarius > > lately, but I've never seen a mention of the Radofin version, which other than > > the lack of 'Mattel' logos and the change to the model number and label on the > > bottom of the machine, is identical. Were many of them sold? Does anyone > > else out there have one? About all I've been able to learn is that since > > Radofin was the actual manufacturer of both versions, they continued to > > produce it for an unknown length of time after Mattel dropped it from their > > line. There's not even a mention of it on any of the Aquarius references on > > the web. > > I'd never even heard of it until you mentioned it to me previous. I > would think that it's kinda rare. > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz Mon Jun 9 17:01:01 1997 From: K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz (Keith Whitehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Removing adhesive (RE: Cleaning Plastic) Message-ID: <199706092205.PAA21292@mx2.u.washington.edu> >On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > >> I recommend "3M General Purpose Adhesive Remover", which is inexpensive >> and comes in a red and white quart-size can that will last you until >> roughly the year 2020. Some hardware stores carry it, but it's most >> reliably found at an auto paint supply store (check your local yellow >> pages). >> >> In response to an earlier question, Cameo copper cleaner can be found in >> most any grocery store or general goods store. > >Ok, there have been so many cleansers thrown around in the last 12 hours >that I think its time to compile a list of these with their respective >uses and throw it in the FAQ. > >Sam >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Well you can add CRC 226 and 556, They don't harm platics (actually they give it a nice gloss if you like that sorta thing) Works really well on these "permanant" paper labels. Cheers +----------- Keith Whitehead -----------+ | Physics and Chemistry Depts | | Massey University | | Palmerston North | | New Zealand | | | | Ph +64 6 350-5074 Fax +64 6 354-0207 | +------------------------------------------+ From gram at cnct.com Mon Jun 9 17:09:09 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > Seeing as you seem to know about the CoCo machines, I may as well ask you: > What the heck is this CoCo Max cartridge I picked up a year or so ago? It > looks like it's some kind of video digitizer or something... but then it > could just be some kind of wacky high-res display cartridge. > > The sticker has been punctured over the screw, so all I see is "HI-RES > PUT MODULE", and on the underside is a small sticker that says "COCO > MAX HI-RES PACK - COLORWARE INC." The cartridge is a high-resolution joystick interface that worked with (if you had a Multi-pak Interface) the CoCo-Max drawing program. Mine was stolen ten years ago, but it was a very nice system. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Jun 9 17:08:17 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970602121045.00aaa570@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > At 11:24 PM 6/1/97 -0700, you wrote: > ><...> > >> accessories including a CP/M cartridge for C64 > > > >A CP/M _carthridge_? Awesome. > > I just tried it yesterday. Pretty cool. The Z80 is in the cartridge. The > package comes with a CP/M 2.2 diskette for 1541 and a condensed CP/M manual > by Commodore (copyright 1983). There is a K-Mart price tag on the original > box that reads $54. Not bad. This reminds me... I also have a Z80 cartridge for the C64. But it's not the one from Commodore. It's from a company called DATA 20 Corporation. I haven't been able to get it to work. It has what looks like a connector for a power supply on the back, but I didn't get the PS with it. It also came without any disks, though it did have a cassette in the box with it, which says "Use side A for Commodore 64/Use side B for VIC 20". It's a Z-80 Video Pak, that combines the Z80 processor AND an 80-column display adapter into one (big fat) cartridge. To quote from the box: The Z-80 Video Pak brings the convenience of an 80 column screen and the power of a CP/M compatible operating system to the Commodore 64. Designed to be used with a monitor, the Z-80 Video Pak lets the Commodore 64 owner switch to a 40 or 80 column screen in black and white, or back to the standard color screen. All switching is done through software and no cables need to be moved. The Z-80 Video Pak has its own Z-80 microprocessor and operating system which allows the 64 to run CP/M software formatted for the Commodore 1541 disk drive. A Terminal mode which brings communication with central data bases is included at no extra cost. The Z-80 Video Pak also supports the advanced screen handling features of all Video Pak models such as erase to the end of line, erase to end of screen, and dump screen to printer. If anyone out there knows this thing's power requirements (AAAGH! Another wall-wart!) and where to get CP/M disks in 1541 format, please tell. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Mon Jun 9 17:13:34 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970602121045.00aaa570@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970609231334.0069ba90@post.keme.co.uk> At 18:08 09/06/97 -0400, you wrote: > >On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > >> At 11:24 PM 6/1/97 -0700, you wrote: >> ><...> >> >> accessories including a CP/M cartridge for C64 >> > >> >A CP/M _carthridge_? Awesome. >> >> I just tried it yesterday. Pretty cool. The Z80 is in the cartridge. The >> package comes with a CP/M 2.2 diskette for 1541 and a condensed CP/M manual >> by Commodore (copyright 1983). There is a K-Mart price tag on the original >> box that reads $54. Not bad. > >This reminds me... I also have a Z80 cartridge for the C64. But it's not >the one from Commodore. It's from a company called DATA 20 Corporation. > >I haven't been able to get it to work. It has what looks like a connector >for a power supply on the back, but I didn't get the PS with it. It also >came without any disks, though it did have a cassette in the box with it, >which says "Use side A for Commodore 64/Use side B for VIC 20". > >It's a Z-80 Video Pak, that combines the Z80 processor AND an 80-column >display adapter into one (big fat) cartridge. > >To quote from the box: > > The Z-80 Video Pak brings the convenience of an 80 column screen and > the power of a CP/M compatible operating system to the Commodore 64. > > Designed to be used with a monitor, the Z-80 Video Pak lets the > Commodore 64 owner switch to a 40 or 80 column screen in black and > white, or back to the standard color screen. All switching is done > through software and no cables need to be moved. > > The Z-80 Video Pak has its own Z-80 microprocessor and operating > system which allows the 64 to run CP/M software formatted for the > Commodore 1541 disk drive. A Terminal mode which brings communication > with central data bases is included at no extra cost. The Z-80 Video > Pak also supports the advanced screen handling features of all Video > Pak models such as erase to the end of line, erase to end of screen, > and dump screen to printer. > > >If anyone out there knows this thing's power requirements (AAAGH! Another >wall-wart!) and where to get CP/M disks in 1541 format, please tell. :) > > >Doug Spence >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > >Hi you lot in the USA. I have a Boxed CPM cart and Disk Commodore Original, Anybody want it?? Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Mon Jun 9 17:16:10 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970602121045.00aaa570@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970609231610.0069daec@post.keme.co.uk> At 18:08 09/06/97 -0400, you wrote: > >On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > >> At 11:24 PM 6/1/97 -0700, you wrote: >> ><...> >> >> accessories including a CP/M cartridge for C64 >> > >> >A CP/M _carthridge_? Awesome. >> >> I just tried it yesterday. Pretty cool. The Z80 is in the cartridge. The >> package comes with a CP/M 2.2 diskette for 1541 and a condensed CP/M manual >> by Commodore (copyright 1983). There is a K-Mart price tag on the original >> box that reads $54. Not bad. > >This reminds me... I also have a Z80 cartridge for the C64. But it's not >the one from Commodore. It's from a company called DATA 20 Corporation. > >I haven't been able to get it to work. It has what looks like a connector >for a power supply on the back, but I didn't get the PS with it. It also >came without any disks, though it did have a cassette in the box with it, >which says "Use side A for Commodore 64/Use side B for VIC 20". > >It's a Z-80 Video Pak, that combines the Z80 processor AND an 80-column >display adapter into one (big fat) cartridge. > >To quote from the box: > > The Z-80 Video Pak brings the convenience of an 80 column screen and > the power of a CP/M compatible operating system to the Commodore 64. > > Designed to be used with a monitor, the Z-80 Video Pak lets the > Commodore 64 owner switch to a 40 or 80 column screen in black and > white, or back to the standard color screen. All switching is done > through software and no cables need to be moved. > > The Z-80 Video Pak has its own Z-80 microprocessor and operating > system which allows the 64 to run CP/M software formatted for the > Commodore 1541 disk drive. A Terminal mode which brings communication > with central data bases is included at no extra cost. The Z-80 Video > Pak also supports the advanced screen handling features of all Video > Pak models such as erase to the end of line, erase to end of screen, > and dump screen to printer. > > >If anyone out there knows this thing's power requirements (AAAGH! Another >wall-wart!) and where to get CP/M disks in 1541 format, please tell. :) > > >Doug Spence >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > >CPM DISKS Easy Download em from the net, make a 1541 lead to connect the 1541 to PC its in the DOX on C64s Emulator, Use a util on the PC called Star Commander and copy stright to a real 1541. Easy!!! If you need more info Mail ME.. Steve Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From s-ware at nwu.edu Mon Jun 9 17:29:48 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Of course, Sam and others have taken to talking about the Mattel > Aquarius lately, but I've never seen a mention of the Radofin version, > which other than the lack of 'Mattel' logos and the change to the model > number and label on the bottom of the machine, is identical. Were many > of them sold? Does anyone else out there have one? About all I've been > able to learn is that since Radofin was the actual manufacturer of both > versions, they continued to produce it for an unknown length of time > after Mattel dropped it from their line. There's not even a mention of > it on any of the Aquarius references on the web. Hello from a new list subscriber! I picked up a Radofin Aquarius with the original box, manual, and software last weekend. Other than the lack of the "Mattel Electronics" logo, it seems to be identical to the Mattel version. The information on the box is in four different languages - English, French, German, and Spanish, IIRC. Is it possible that the Aquarius was sold under the Radofin name outside the US? -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu ware@interaccess.com From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 9 17:23:49 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've accumulated a little info on the Radofin Aquarius (as that's the flavor of Aquarius that I've got). Apparently Mattel made the Aquarius for a short time and then dumped it when it didn't make money. Radofin who was the manufacturer purchased the rights to it and continued to manufacture it for another 2 years. At some point, but apparently not immediately they changed from a Zilog Z-80 to some kind of Z-80 clone for a processor (I can't remember what at the moment - I think it may have been an NEC chip). I've talked to a person who's R-Aquarius has a Z-80 in it, but mine has the clone chip. Functionally there appears to be no difference between the models. Mattel has been removed from the top logo in the Radofin version. It also looks like the Radofin guys were overachievers when it came to internal shielding. I was told by a Mattel owner that the guts of his machine were shielded by that cheezy cardboard/foil stuff and screwed to the main board. Mine is encased in a poorly vented metal box which is soldered all around to the main board (yeah, it was a bitch to remove. Now it's screwed down.) Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Of course, Sam and others have taken to talking about the Mattel Aquarius > lately, but I've never seen a mention of the Radofin version, which other than > the lack of 'Mattel' logos and the change to the model number and label on the > bottom of the machine, is identical. Were many of them sold? Does anyone > else out there have one? About all I've been able to learn is that since > Radofin was the actual manufacturer of both versions, they continued to > produce it for an unknown length of time after Mattel dropped it from their > line. There's not even a mention of it on any of the Aquarius references on > the web. > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Collector of classic home computers: > Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, > Coleco ADAM, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, > Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, > Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color > Computer-3, Model 4, and Model 4P, plus Odyssey2, Atari Superpong > and 2600VCS game consoles. > > > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 9 18:41:02 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at Jun 9, 97 03:23:49 pm Message-ID: <9706092241.AA00050@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1269 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970609/3c4d842c/attachment.ksh From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 9 17:52:53 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: TI99 (was Re: 8088s seattle comp.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not along the same topic but I'm curious - just how popular was the TI99. From what I've seen scrounging over the years it looks like it might have been the most popular (or at least most numerous) micro ever made. Now, I know that's not true. It's just strange - I could go out this weekend and easily come home with 30- 40 of these machines, wait a month or two and probably do it again. There's one local junk store here that had 11 of them lying around when last I checked. They're like roaches ;). Bill From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 9 17:56:58 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: How to read/write TRS-80 diskettes from PC? In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051B94C1@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: > I have a CompatiCard II and a Copy II Option Board. I assume the Option > Board is able to copy TRS-80 diskettes (I hope, just got it this weekend > and haven't tried yet) but I need to actually write files. Sydex 22Disk > appears to support only CP/M formats. The CII Option Board will copy TRS-80 disks (or make disk images of them which is the really useful feature of the option board). Can't help you with reading/writing part. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 9 18:01:27 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: TI99 (was Re: 8088s seattle comp.) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051DBF66@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> True, that's bizarre... they appear to be especially common in the northwest. But just try to find a PEB! Kai > ---------- > From: Bill Whitson[SMTP:bill@booster.bothell.washington.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, June 09, 1997 3:52 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: TI99 (was Re: 8088s seattle comp.) > > > Not along the same topic but I'm curious - just how > popular was the TI99. From what I've seen scrounging > over the years it looks like it might have been the > most popular (or at least most numerous) micro ever made. > Now, I know that's not true. It's just strange - I > could go out this weekend and easily come home with 30- > 40 of these machines, wait a month or two and probably do > it again. There's one local junk store here that had > 11 of them lying around when last I checked. They're > like roaches ;). > > Bill > From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 9 18:01:35 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Bill mentions sticking a keyboard in a dishwasher. Bill, I assume you've > done this, and it's OK? I would think that with the heat of drying and > all it would kill the components. Allison pretty much summed up my thoughts on this and then left me in the dust ;). At any rate, yes I put pretty much all my keyboards through the dishwasher. I add a softener to avoid getting white spots all over the keys (I have hard water) and don't use the dry cycle. I usually leave them out to dry for 3 days before using them. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 9 18:03:37 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Removing adhesive (RE: Cleaning Plastic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ok, there have been so many cleansers thrown around in the last 12 hours > that I think its time to compile a list of these with their respective > uses and throw it in the FAQ. Already on it ;). A good deal of this info also already exists in the FAQ. This is undoubtedly the most FAQ of all the FAQs on this list. Bill From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 9 21:23:36 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Bit-3 Full-View80 video card for Atari 800 References: <9706092124.AA30415@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <339CBAA8.7533@unix.aardvarkol.com> Here's something I've been wanting to pick up for quite a while and just happened to come across one in my favorite thrift shop today while out picking up some groceries. I came across an Atari 800, with the standard 10k ROM and a single 16k RAM cartridge in it, as well as a 3rd party 32k RAM cartridge and a Bit-3 Full-View80 80-column video board! The video board has a mini-din connector and what appears to be a composite video connector (RCA female plug) for a monitor. Is this a composite video connector? I can't remember if software had to be written specifically for the Bit-3 or not? Also, could someone tell me the power requirements for an Atari 850 interface, as I also picked up one of those but it didn't have the PSU. Thanks. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 9 21:29:29 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: TI99 (was Re: 8088s seattle comp.) References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051DBF66@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <339CBC09.2CC6@unix.aardvarkol.com> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > True, that's bizarre... they appear to be especially common in the > northwest. But just try to find a PEB! Thankfully, PEB's don't seem impossible to find around me, as I've come up with two of them in the last year, though I've not seen anywhere near that number of TI-99's as you and Bill are referring to. What I need is the Speech Editor cartridge! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 9 21:31:35 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius References: Message-ID: <339CBC87.36FD@unix.aardvarkol.com> Bill Whitson wrote: > I've accumulated a little info on the Radofin Aquarius (as that's the > flavor of Aquarius that I've got). Apparently Mattel made the Aquarius > for a short time and then dumped it when it didn't make money. Radofin > who was the manufacturer purchased the rights to it and continued to > manufacture it for another 2 years. At some point, but apparently not Bill, Thanks...that validated what I had heard on the subject, though I didn't realize they kept making it for two more years. Didn't Mattel market the machine barely 9 months or so before dropping it? Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From chemif at mbox.queen.it Mon Jun 9 19:00:29 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic Message-ID: <199706100000.CAA12105@mbox.queen.it> At 05:38 09/06/97 -0700, Greg Mast wrote: > > I apologize if this is a repeat question but I can't seem to find the > previous post. > > What were the solutions to removing yellowing from the plastic cases? I > bought a printer that looks terrible. Not sure what caused it so any > suggestions helpful at this point. > > thanks, > > Greg > Hi Greg, I don't know if this will help you in solving cleaning problems, but here is my favourite: FULCRON from AREXONS. I do maintenance and cleaning of computer cases since 10 years (for both job and passion), and i found it to clean jellow stains (caused by nicotine) EVEN BETTER THAN TRIELINE (honestly I find it better than anything else for any kind of dirt exept: paint and ink). It seems to take away the outer layer of jellowing but is not smelling like any petrol derived-solvent. I don't know if you will be able to find it there (AREXONS it's a multinational company, isn't it?), but here in Italy was introduced 3 years ago and now you can find it in any detergent shop. For ink and tape adhesive I use a ISOPROPILIC ALCOOL based product called TERGITUTTO, but this time the company (Sutter) I'm shure it's Italian only, so try to find a similar remedy in your town. Bye Riccardo Romagnoli. Classic Computer Collector Forli' - Italy From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Mon Jun 9 19:20:54 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: TRS-80, etc. Message-ID: Howdy folks: I am writing this to let you know... if you would like to be mailed a very complete listing of TRS-80 hardware and software, just e-mail me with your name and mailing address to coslor@bobcat.peru.edu. This listing costists of 65 pages and will be sent via 1st Class mail ASAP. If you would like it even quicker, please send $3 to the address below to cover MOST of the shipping charges... you would then be 'prioritized'. I collect all types of TRS-80 hardware and software, and specialize in games in both original diska nd tape format, as well as converted for use with modern PC emulators. I have a HUGE collection and would like to share this with others. I like to think I have 'nearly' every commercially sold game (and hundreds of others) written for the TRS-80 line of computers. I also have most applications and DOSs ... all for the Model 1,3,4 as well as a limited supply of CoCo hardware and software. I also collect for many other classic systems, including but not limited to: MSX, Colour Genie, Apple ][, Apple ][e, Apple ][c, Apple ][+, Commodore 64, C-16, Vic 20, Plus 4, Atari series, Coleco, Sincalire Spectrum, P2000, and Vectrex systems. All I ask for most of the software is to be compensated for my expenses (postage, media, etc.) and have very low prices on most of my hardware as I have accumulated a large inventory over the years and need to clear my shelves. I am also looking for the following items in particular: 1) YOUR classic hardware and/or software. I am always buying and trading for those item. 2) 80-Micro, TRS-80 Microcomputing News, Computer News 80, and 80-US Journal magazines, etc. 3) Original manuals, instruction, and game boxes concerning the TRS-80 4) Atari 800 - Atari Artist cartridge. A800LX - RX8053. Just please remember, I am always buying, selling, and trading for these hard to find items... even for things not on the above list. If you're looking for something or have some things to offer... PLEASE let me know. I simply love the TRS-80 and other classic machines and would appreciate any help you may be able to provide in expanding my collection. I most gladly will help you out in adding to your own classic computer or game machine collection. Finally, I have ALL my original disk, tape, and cartridge software... for all systems, converted to run on their respective PC emulators! Send me your want lists, request for a catalog, or what you have to offer: via e-mail, United States Postal Service, or give me a call... I look forward to hearing from you. Best Wishes, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From danjo at xnet.com Mon Jun 9 21:46:28 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Dan and Joanne Tucker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: (fwd) FREE: Collection of Early MS-DOS/PC-DOS SW and manuals Message-ID: <199706100246.VAA18110@xnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2462 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970609/6a01d0a8/attachment.ksh From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Mon Jun 9 21:48:13 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706100248.VAA20025@fudge.uchicago.edu> jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com said, > Of course, Sam and others have taken to talking about the Mattel > Aquarius lately, but I've never seen a mention of the Radofin > version, which other than the lack of 'Mattel' logos and the change > to the model number and label on the bottom of the machine, is > identical. I bought one of these at a second-hand store a few weeks ago and didn't even notice until I got it home that there was no mention of Mattel anywhere on the box. I would have assumed it was earlier than the Mattel version, not later, because it's got a 1983 copyright date on it and I can't imagine anyone buying an Aquarius (for full price) any later than that. Scott Ware mentioned there being four languages on the box of his. Mine has five: English, French, German, Italian, and Spanish, though there are some things that only appear in English and French and a few that are in English only. Bill Whitson mentioned the heavy shielding -- yes, there's a *lot* of metal inside the case, and sufficiently soldered down to make me wonder whether their goal wasn't so much to prevent RF interference as to keep people from snooping at the electronics. Mine came with a box but no manuals, so all I know about it is the location of the start of screen memory (revealed as 12328 in a photo of the manual reproduced on the box) and the usual things that you expect to find in a Microsoft BASIC. The most interesting thing about it to me was that it comes up in lowercase by default, which seems to be almost unheard of in early 1980s micros. I was also surprised that it accepts both ^X and ^U as line-erase characters in its line editor, but then I got a TRS-80 Model 100 and it does the same thing, so maybe this is just something common to the later MS BASICs. eric From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 9 22:24:36 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Bit-3 Full-View80 video card for Atari 800 References: <9706092124.AA30415@alph02.triumf.ca> <339CBAA8.7533@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <339CC8F4.9A2@rain.org> Jeff Hellige wrote: > > written specifically for the Bit-3 or not? Also, could someone tell me > the power requirements for an Atari 850 interface, as I also picked up > one of those but it didn't have the PSU. Thanks. > Can't help with the Bit-3 unit, but the power supply for my 850 interface is P/N C014319, is marked for use with Atari 400/800 systems, and is listed as 9.5 VAC output @ 1.7Amps. Hope this helps. From ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu Mon Jun 9 22:55:49 1997 From: ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu (Yujin Nagasawa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: (fwd) FREE: Collection of Early MS-DOS/PC-DOS SW and manuals Message-ID: <199706100351.XAA01476@abel.ic.sunysb.edu> I would really like to get old Windows and Turbo Prolog, but I can not go there to pick them up. Is it impossible to send them to me? Of course I will pay for shipping and every thing. Thank you, Yujin Nagasawa From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 10 01:33:17 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > The monitor does a lot. Try typing L and hitting return and you will get > > a disassembly. You can specify an address first, like F800L to start > > disassembly at $F800. > > Actually this doesn't work. > > The ///'s monitor isn't identical to the ]['s monitor. That's why I was > asking. Yeah, you're right. I found this out after finally booting my /// up for the first time. No wonder the /// flopped. They changed a good thing. They fixed what wasn't broken. Lame-o's. > Do you know what kind of battery it's supposed to take? (And why they put > it in such an inaccessible place on the motherboard?) I haven't torn my /// apart yet. If I find out before you do, I'll let you in on the secret. > > > Can the /// emulate a ][? > > > > Yes it can, but you need the emulation system disk. > > Cool! Not that I need another ][, I just think it's good that they > allowed this kind of functionality. Though I suppose, in a way, they felt > they had to. Let me know if you need the system disks. I can send you some. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 10 01:47:56 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: C64 thingy Message-ID: I picked up a Commodore 64 a while ago that had this special board inside. It was inserted between the keyboard and the motherboard. IE. it had a connector that plugged into the keyboard rolex connector on the motherboard and then the keyboard ribbon cable plugged into it. Then it had a 9-pin male D-type connector than came out the back of the C64. My guess is that it was for a numeric keypad or something. I forgot what was stamped on the circuit board. Any ideas? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 10 01:44:30 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: TI99 (was Re: 8088s seattle comp.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > Not along the same topic but I'm curious - just how > popular was the TI99. From what I've seen scrounging > over the years it looks like it might have been the > most popular (or at least most numerous) micro ever made. > Now, I know that's not true. It's just strange - I > could go out this weekend and easily come home with 30- > 40 of these machines, wait a month or two and probably do > it again. There's one local junk store here that had > 11 of them lying around when last I checked. They're > like roaches ;). Personally, my opinion of the TI-99/4a varies from stupid piece of shit to semi-decent machine. Today I feel like stupid piece of shit. It was almost completely closed, it's BASIC sucked and was slow, it's keyboard sucked, and if it wasn't for the hordes of TI-99 faithfuls it would've been just a footnote. I don't understand what the big attraction was, but then, I came from the world of Apple ][, to which nothing could compare (uh oh, here come the holy wars). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 9 18:24:37 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Bit-3 Full-View80 video card for Atari 800 In-Reply-To: <339CC8F4.9A2@rain.org> Message-ID: On 10-Jun-97, Marvin wrote: >Can't help with the Bit-3 unit, but the power supply for my 850 >interface is P/N C014319, is marked for use with Atari 400/800 systems, >and is listed as 9.5 VAC output @ 1.7Amps. Hope this helps. Marvin, Thanks for the info! I just happen to have an extra one of these PSU's sitting here. Isn't this the same PSU that powers the 800 itself? Jeff Jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Coleco ADAM, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, Model 4, and Model 4P, plus Odyssey2, Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 10 08:18:42 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: TI99 (was Re: 8088s seattle comp.) Message-ID: <199706101318.AA15548@world.std.com> > Personally, my opinion of the TI-99/4a varies from stupid piece of shit > to semi-decent machine. Today I feel like stupid piece of shit. It was > almost completely closed, it's BASIC sucked and was slow, it's keyboard I have two of the beasts and a expansion box with floppy, ram, aftermarket ram and rs232 and ever the little talker thing and a box of games. It is slow. The manuals for the cpu and expansion were available, I got them. It's a compilation of the things you can do to a good cpu to make it run slow and try to do everything. > but then, I came from the world of Apple ][, to which nothing could > compare (uh oh, here come the holy wars). It's attraction? One it was cheaper than an apple with disks! When TI had the great sell off the console was $50, expansion $50, and modules $25-100. That made it appealingly cheap for what it was. I got my during the fire sale so they have been with me since new and work great. Parsec is still a favorite game. Since I have the editor, assember and other packages I also use it for assembly of TI9900 code for the technico board. An aside: The ti994a was an attempt at the time of emerging PCs to deliver the home computing applance. Everyone had an idea and generally the all were poor. Even the original PC was really bad, mostly closed design. They were all noteable as it told marketers what would fly and what had to be there. Amusingly the ti has what every P5 box has today, graphics, sound, games so they weren't that far off . Allison From kyrrin at wizards.net Tue Jun 10 08:37:28 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Trade for board? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610063728.00e29d90@mail.wizards.net> Although I currently have a decent QBUS-to-SCSI adapter (Sigma Information Systems model RQD11), it does not appear to be capable of handling, or booting from, a CD-ROM drive with its current revision of firmware. Despite this, it does appear to work quite well (recognized by the MicroVAX it's plugged into, sees devices on the SCSI bus). Since I need to boot from CD, though, the board is of little use to me in its current state. Anyone on here interested in maybe trading me an Emulex or Dilog SCSI card for this one? I do have the original manual (and if you think that was easy to find...) ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From idavis at comland.com Tue Jun 10 09:28:31 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Bit-3 Full-View80 video card for Atari 800 Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970610142831.008fc80c@mail.comland.com > At 07:23 PM 6/9/97 -0700, Jeff wrote: >written specifically for the Bit-3 or not? Also, could someone tell me >the power requirements for an Atari 850 interface, as I also picked up >one of those but it didn't have the PSU. Thanks. > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com >-- >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ >Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, >800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, >VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, >Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 >Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong >and Atari 2600VCS game consoles > I have been using the same power supply for my 850 as my 800. Come to think of it, just about everything I have hooked to my atari is using the exact same power supplies, except for the 1027 printer which has a different sized connector. I will double check the 850 manual when I get home, but I know I just grabbed a regular old atari 800 power supply and started using it. If it turns out to be different, I will post the requirements. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 10 10:33:03 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Bit-3 Full-View80 video card for Atari 800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > >Can't help with the Bit-3 unit, but the power supply for my 850 > >interface is P/N C014319, is marked for use with Atari 400/800 systems, > >and is listed as 9.5 VAC output @ 1.7Amps. Hope this helps. > > Marvin, > > Thanks for the info! I just happen to have an extra one of these PSU's > sitting here. Isn't this the same PSU that powers the 800 itself? > Yup, it sure is. Sounds like you are in luck! From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jun 10 11:08:09 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Sage IV... Message-ID: <199706101608.RAA13441@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Hi all, I have just recieved this email offering me a Sage IV. I am not interested as I already have one so the cost of shipping to here in the UK isn't worth it. So if someone wants it contact him directly. Kevan ------- Forwarded Message To: collector@heydon.org Subject: sage IV Hello, I own a Sage IV computer and have some word processing software and spreadsheet software for the computer. I also own two amber monitors for the Sage IV. If you are interested in purchasing these, or know a source in the United States that is interested in this computer equipment, please leave me a note on the web, or at CompuServe 76627,224 Jim Krasno (my wife is Nancy Nelson) Jim ------- End of Forwarded Message From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue Jun 10 11:20:10 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: TI99 (was Re: 8088s seattle comp.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apple II???????? PUHLEEZE!!!!!!! EVERYONE knows that MY COMMODORE 64 is WAY better than YOUR APPLE! All 64erz UNITE and show this INFIDEL why our 64s are KING! ;) Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jun 10 11:32:25 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Sage IV... Message-ID: <199706101629.LAA10200@challenge.sunflower.com> Im not rich, Don't have one. Do I want one? Help me out here? what is it? ---------- > From: Kevan Heydon > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Sage IV... > Date: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 11:08 AM > > > Hi all, > > I have just recieved this email offering me a Sage IV. I am not > interested as I already have one so the cost of shipping to here in the > UK isn't worth it. So if someone wants it contact him directly. > > Kevan > > ------- Forwarded Message > > To: collector@heydon.org > Subject: sage IV > > Hello, I own a Sage IV computer and have some word processing software > and spreadsheet software for the computer. I also own two amber > monitors for the Sage IV. If you are interested in purchasing these, or > know a source in the United States that is interested in this computer > equipment, please leave me a note on the web, or at CompuServe 76627,224 > Jim Krasno (my wife is Nancy Nelson) > Jim > > ------- End of Forwarded Message > > > > From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jun 10 11:44:55 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Sage IV... In-Reply-To: <199706101629.LAA10200@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <199706101644.RAA14144@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> In message <199706101629.LAA10200@challenge.sunflower.com>you write: > Im not rich, Don't have one. Do I want one? Help me out here? what is it? > To start with you can see a picture of a Sage II here: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/old_collection/manufacturer-sage.html The IV is a slightly higher box as it contains a full height hard disk. The CPU is a 68000 running at 8MHz. My II has 512Kb of memory but I think the IV has more. They have a serial port to connect a console and they also have a HPIB port. I only know them to run a the UCSD Pascal system but it seems that they also have other software. Sorry I don't know much more as even though I have had mine for quite some time I haven't had much chance to play with them. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 10 12:21:14 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:47 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 References: <9706092124.AA30415@alph02.triumf.ca> <339CBAA8.7533@unix.aardvarkol.com> <339CC8F4.9A2@rain.org> Message-ID: <339D8D0A.55EA@rain.org> In checking through the master computer lists, I found a Tandy 600 computer that is not listed. In checking through the docs, I can't find any reference to what the CPU is and I would prefer not to take it apart to find out:). Anyone know what CPU it uses? The manual was copyright 1985 but I don't know when the machine was actually released although I would *assume* 1985. It operates with MS-DOS style files and with all software residing in ROM. It appears that the basic machine comes with 32K of RAM expandable to 128K or 224K with special 96K upgrade kits. It is classified as a "lap-size" or "handheld" computer; this with the dimensions being 11 1/2" x 12 1/2" x 2 1/2" and weighing about 9 1/2 pounds. It comes with a 16 line x 80 character LCD screen, 3 1/2" drive and a build-in modem. Built in software includes MS Works V1.2 with Word, Calendar, File, Telecom, and Multiplan. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 10 18:19:53 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: Sage IV... In-Reply-To: <199706101629.LAA10200@challenge.sunflower.com>; from "Bill Girnius" at Jun 10, 97 11:32 am Message-ID: <199706101719.2416@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Im not rich, Don't have one. Do I want one? Help me out here? what is it? If it's the machine I think it is, it's a Sage 2 with a hard disk. A Sage 2 was a single-board (+ PSU and Drives) 68000 box with up to 512K RAM, disk controller, 2 serial ports (terminal and modem), GPIB, and printer port. It was quite nice hardware, and easy to hack about with (all chips in sockets, schematics in the manual, etc). There was a _good_ monitor in ROM (edit memory, registers, read/write sectors, etc). It could (obviously) boot an OS from disk - the standard one was (IIRC) the ucsd p-system. Of course I could be thinking of some totally different Sage. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 10 12:27:21 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051FF342@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Actually the Tandy 600 was a 1989 concoction. It looks like an early Toshiba laptop, with flip-up narrow LCD display. It has Multiplan, a subset of MS Word, a built-in modem, 360K 3.5" drive, 80x16 display, and sold for $999. I passed up one of these at a swap meet a few weeks ago. Kai > ---------- > From: Marvin[SMTP:marvin@rain.org] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 10:21 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Tandy 600 > > In checking through the master computer lists, I found a Tandy 600 > computer that is not listed. In checking through the docs, I can't > find > any reference to what the CPU is and I would prefer not to take it > apart > to find out:). Anyone know what CPU it uses? The manual was > copyright > 1985 but I don't know when the machine was actually released although > I > would *assume* 1985. It operates with MS-DOS style files and with all > software residing in ROM. It appears that the basic machine comes > with > 32K of RAM expandable to 128K or 224K with special 96K upgrade kits. > It > is classified as a "lap-size" or "handheld" computer; this with the > dimensions being 11 1/2" x 12 1/2" x 2 1/2" and weighing about 9 1/2 > pounds. It comes with a 16 line x 80 character LCD screen, 3 1/2" > drive > and a build-in modem. Built in software includes MS Works V1.2 with > Word, Calendar, File, Telecom, and Multiplan. > From ekman at lysator.liu.se Tue Jun 10 07:42:40 1997 From: ekman at lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: Where do I find classic stuff in MN, SD, ND In-Reply-To: <199706090702.AAA12650@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Greetings! I will be going to the US next week and would naturally like to take the chance to find some classic stuff. It presently looks like I will be moving around the states Minnesota, South Dakota and North Dakota. Unfortunately, airline baggage regulations will not allow me to purchase any considerable amounts of hardware, so I will be mostly interested in software. Does anyone have any information about shops or other places in those states where I may purchase classic software (or hardware)? I mostly collect Commodore, but anything is of potential interest. /Fredrik From bwit at pobox.com Tue Jun 10 12:07:00 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (CSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 Message-ID: <01BC759F.71CF6B80@ppp-151-164-40-85.rcsntx.swbell.net> I have one of these and I believe it is based on the Intel 8086. Bob ---------- From: Marvin Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 1:21 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Tandy 600 In checking through the master computer lists, I found a Tandy 600 computer that is not listed. In checking through the docs, I can't find any reference to what the CPU is and I would prefer not to take it apart to find out:). Anyone know what CPU it uses? The manual was copyright 1985 but I don't know when the machine was actually released although I would *assume* 1985. It operates with MS-DOS style files and with all software residing in ROM. It appears that the basic machine comes with 32K of RAM expandable to 128K or 224K with special 96K upgrade kits. It is classified as a "lap-size" or "handheld" computer; this with the dimensions being 11 1/2" x 12 1/2" x 2 1/2" and weighing about 9 1/2 pounds. It comes with a 16 line x 80 character LCD screen, 3 1/2" drive and a build-in modem. Built in software includes MS Works V1.2 with Word, Calendar, File, Telecom, and Multiplan. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2005 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970610/2908348d/attachment.bin From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 10 13:01:33 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff Message-ID: <199706101801.AA28899@world.std.com> HI, In my non-op list of equipment I have three cocos apparently operational. They are of two different styles. The smaller is the TRS80 color computer with real keys on the keyboard. I have two of these one the case was wiped out, board is ok. The larger is TDP-100 personal color computer with chiclet keys. Lacking docs I presume these have rom Basic. What expansion is possible (there is a port) and how hard. Do they run any real OSs or some TRShack? What's the odds of finding DOCS especially schematics? I have a xt class machine with an Intel Inboard386...(works too!) what's the odds of finding schemtics or expansion ram for it? The 1meg of ram is tight for somne stuff. Currently I use it as a 10x faster xt. Allison From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 10 14:07:40 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205208822@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> The Color Computers were: Color Computer 1: Silver/black, 4K-64K Color Computer 2: White, 4K-64K Color Computer 3: White, 64K-128K Micro Color Computer: White, tiny, 4K I've never heard of a TDP-100. The Color Computers had ROM BASIC and most serious users ran an operating system called OS-9 which was kind of like TopView. Expansion is via the cartridge slot. The floppy disk interface was implemented as a cartridge, with the floppy OS in ROM in the controller cartridge. CoCo floppy drives are rare. Floppies stored 156K. There was also a hard disk cartridge, believe it or not; plus, a Multi-Pak Interface which allowed you to connect four different carts and switch between them. There are lots of CoCo fanatics around, somebody probably sells parts and maybe even schematics. In regard to the Inboard/386, as I recall it had 1MB 32-bit RAM on the card, and could optionally use motherboard RAM which of course ran at a much slower rate. My memories may be confused with the Inboard/386 AT, but I seem to remember a daughtercard which could store an additional 2MB or so. Good luck finding a daughtercard though. Kai > ---------- > From: allisonp@world.std.com[SMTP:allisonp@world.std.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 11:01 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: cocos and stuff > > HI, > > In my non-op list of equipment I have three cocos apparently > operational. > They are of two different styles. > > The smaller is the TRS80 color computer with real keys on the > keyboard. > I have two of these one the case was wiped out, board is ok. > > The larger is TDP-100 personal color computer with chiclet keys. > > Lacking docs I presume these have rom Basic. What expansion is > possible > (there is a port) and how hard. Do they run any real OSs or some > TRShack? > > What's the odds of finding DOCS especially schematics? > > > I have a xt class machine with an Intel Inboard386...(works too!) > what's the > odds of finding schemtics or expansion ram for it? The 1meg of ram is > tight > for somne stuff. Currently I use it as a 10x faster xt. > > Allison > From BNICALEK at aol.com Tue Jun 10 14:08:46 1997 From: BNICALEK at aol.com (BNICALEK@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <970610150843_589119227@emout06.mail.aol.com> To clarify some statements that have already been made on the TI-99/4A, I'd like to comment: << True, that's bizarre... they appear to be especially common in the northwest. But just try to find a PEB! >> There were approximately 1+ million consoles manufactured by Texas Instruments from 1981 through early 1984. There were also approximately 250,000 Peripheral Expansion Systems also manufactured. So, while it's true there were more consoles, PEB's are not hard to find. << What I need is the Speech Editor cartridge! >> To Jeff Hellige - these are little rare to find, but are still available. I got mine for around $20 from someone in California. But, you can call up any vendor and get them from around $25-30, due to their rarity. << Personally, my opinion of the TI-99/4a varies from stupid piece of shit to semi-decent machine. Today I feel like stupid piece of shit. It was almost completely closed, it's BASIC sucked and was slow, it's keyboard sucked, and if it wasn't for the hordes of TI-99 faithfuls it would've been just a footnote. I don't understand what the big attraction was, but then, I came from the world of Apple ][, to which nothing could compare (uh oh, here come the holy wars). >> To Sam -- The TI-99/4A, in my opinion, is at the very least a semi-decent machine. The BASIC interpreter is what slowed things down a bit, but you have to look at it from a different perspective - no PEEKs or POKEs just to program graphics and/or sound, like some other machines (no, I'm good enough not to mention any names). The keyboard did "suck" compared to that of a PC, but it was very simple - especially suited towards children. From my own experience, I found the keyboard easy to use compared to a Commodore 64 - the touch response was better. The big attraction came from the fact that it was 16-bit, had full color, sprites (smoothly-moving objects), excellent speech synthesis, easy to use cartridges, and expandability. Some of the games were amazing (like Parsec and Alpiner) - way ahead of its time. And you can do word processing and spreadsheets with it as well. << Even the original PC was really bad, mostly closed design. They were all noteable as it told marketers what would fly and what had to be there. Amusingly the ti has what every P5 box has today, graphics, sound, games so they weren't that far off . >> Allison -- I couldn't agree with you more. The TI-99/4A was an amazing machine when you look back at all the components and features it had. It's still easier than my P120 I'm using to type this message - as there's no icons to click, no finagling around to get where you need to go or to do this. Just press 2 keys and you're in the program with the TI. Now that I call ease-of-use! << EVERYONE knows that MY COMMODORE 64 is WAY better than YOUR APPLE! >> To Les -- Yes, the Commodore 64 IS better than the Apple - I must admit! --------------------- And to Bill and others -- So you can begin to see with all these replies that people at least knew about the TI-99/4A and its positives/negatives. But that's to go with any machine. It's about what you learned on, and what you grew up with. In my case, this is the computer I learned on, and I'll stick with it forever because once you get used to one thing, it's hard to change sometimes. Same goes I'm sure for everyone else on this list server. The TI-99/4A was one of the most popular computers ever made back in the early 80's. Again, 1 million consoles gives you a hint. And, I'll tell you why they're like roaches sitting around -- most people bought them for around $50-100 when TI was going out of business (late 1983 into early 1984), played a few games on them, and then said, "I'm done!". Instead of throwing them in the garbage, they thought they were worth something, and now you see them all around in thrift stores. I even went to a local fair around town last year and picked one up for $5! But remember, for these people, that's all they wanted to do with this computer. But for those that were serious, you could do much, much more with it! Bryan Nicalek bnicalek@aol.com From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jun 10 14:15:42 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff Message-ID: <01IJWPY63BEA9355YE@cc.usu.edu> > The smaller is the TRS80 color computer with real keys on the keyboard. > I have two of these one the case was wiped out, board is ok. > >Lacking docs I presume these have rom Basic. What expansion is possible >(there is a port) and how hard. Do they run any real OSs or some TRShack? RS sold OS/9 for the color computer. I don't know what models are required to run it. >What's the odds of finding DOCS especially schematics? RS published a technical manual for the color computer; I have a copy of it somewhere. HOWEVER I found there's an app note from Motorola with schematics that almost exactly match those in the RS technical manual. I don't recall whether it was a 6809 app note or a 6847 app note though. If you can find a set of old Motorola data books you may be able to find it. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 10 14:55:21 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff Message-ID: <199706101955.AA21362@world.std.com> > Color Computer 2: White, 4K-64K One is definatly a coco2 with 64k. no question. > Color Computer 3: White, 64K-128K I suspect the board I have is one of these with 128k (four 41464s) and a lot of the logic is on an ASIC. > I've never heard of a TDP-100. The Color Computers had ROM BASIC and TDP is TANDY DATA PRODUCTS when tandy was trying to seperate from the Radiocrap idea in the early 80s. TDP-100 It's coco 6809, cart port and configureable for 16 or 64k. This one has 64k I suspect it's the COCO-1 but case color is white and black and keyboard is chicklet style. Has all the joystick connectors and the like. It's design is lots of chips compared to the other two I suspect early design. Also it's serial number 0000038! It also has lots of mods. The inboard386/pc and inboard386/at are similar save for one is designed to replace the 8088 and is 8-bit ISA and the other the 286 with 16bit ISA. The /PC version has 1mb of ram but with more (4mb) I could use it as a slow (it's 16mhz) linux box. A schematic of the connector for the ram expansion would be useful, I can hack my own board. The PC version cannot use the motherboard ram as far as I can see in the book and even if it could I need more. Allison From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 10 14:58:07 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051FF342@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <339DB1CF.5440@rain.org> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > Actually the Tandy 600 was a 1989 concoction. It looks like an early > Toshiba laptop, with flip-up narrow LCD display. It has Multiplan, a > subset of MS Word, a built-in modem, 360K 3.5" drive, 80x16 display, and > sold for $999. I passed up one of these at a swap meet a few weeks ago. > Your description almost fits this one but not quite. This one has a 3 1/2" drive (720K I believe). I doubt that a manual would be copyrighted 4 years or so ahead of when it was sold. Does your 1989 year imply that the Tandy 600 had at least a four year life span? I happened across this one when someone brought it to me to be repaired and didn't want it back. I ended up trading a 20 MB Seagate 225 for it, and the machine is in really good condition! From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 10 14:49:53 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205208822@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > The Color Computers were: > > Color Computer 1: Silver/black, 4K-64K > Color Computer 2: White, 4K-64K I have a CoCo2 that's yellow, and I don't think it's from aging. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From scott at saskatoon.com Tue Jun 10 15:03:18 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 In-Reply-To: <339DB1CF.5440@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: >Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >> >> Actually the Tandy 600 was a 1989 concoction. It looks like an early According to August 1987 Micro-80, the 600 came out in 1985, sported an 80c88 cpu and cost $1599. I hope this helps. ttfn srw From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Tue Jun 10 15:21:10 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: <970610150843_589119227@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: I have a question for you folks. I have a basic TI 99/4a.... that's it. No cables, no peripherals, no nothing with it. I am wanting to get this machine up to operation and am looking for anything that you folks might have available. I have a large assortment of running machines in my collection... TRS-80s, CoCo, Commodores, etc., etc., and would like to add this classic machine to my 'operational' collection. Can anyone help me out? Thanks in advance, CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 10 15:30:09 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <199706102030.AA20038@world.std.com> Hi, I should qualify myself as comming from when personal computer meant you owned a computer be it a minuteman-1 missle guidence computer(all transistor), mark-8 or a PDP-8! The TI99/4a was 81 technology and should be compared to that not a P1000000! This seems to occur often. It compared to the PCjr with the chicklet keyboard or COCO1 with same at a time when the osborne-1 totable was new and neat. Apple/III had bombed on the market. It compared to z80 based system at 4mhz and a few emerging at 6mhz or the other non-IBM-PC 8088/6 based s100 systems. There were even 68000 based system but 8mhz were fast ones. It was color! At a time when that capability was uncommon. It didn't require an engineer to hook it up or make it do something/anything. At that time S100 systems, apples, and the like were rarely packaged systems. The trs80 and others started something with ready to run boxes that were also slow and cranky. Can I say it better as...back then a lot of things were starting to shake out, emerge and outright happen. The TI99/4a was one of those and it was far cheaper than a PC even at it introduction price. 1980 to 1984 was an interesting time. Who knows, if IBM and intel didn't hook up we could be running unix on a fifth generation z8000. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 10 15:30:16 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff Message-ID: <199706102030.AA20240@world.std.com> > RS published a technical manual for the color computer; I have a copy of i > somewhere. HOWEVER I found there's an app note from Motorola with schemati > that almost exactly match those in the RS technical manual. I don't recal > whether it was a 6809 app note or a 6847 app note though. If you can find > set of old Motorola data books you may be able to find it. Since I have three distinctly different generation boards I suspect the moto prints would hold to the oldest. Allison From pcoad at crl.com Tue Jun 10 15:31:26 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: Reminder: electronics/junk/computer sale June 14 Message-ID: This is a reminder for those in the San Francisco Bay area that on June 14 in Mountain View, there will be an junk/electronics sale. The location will be at Haltek (1062 Linda Vista Ave (Shoreline exit off 101)). I believe that this sale will have stuff from 7 different stores. The sale should run from 9am to 3pm. The stores participating are: Alltronics Campbell Techinical Excess Solutions Halted Specialities Haltek Test Labs Weirdstuff Directions: Take Highway 101 to Shoreline Blvd. West Turn Left on Terra Bella Turn left on Linda vista. Haltek is at the end of the road on the left. There will likely be a small get together (two people so far). Anyone who is interested in the get together let me know. There is a pretty good (if slightly expensive) Mexican food place nearby. Within a few miles from Haltek just about any kind of food can be found. I'm not associated with any of the participants, I just a customer. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jun 10 15:59:49 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: <970610150843_589119227@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: > There were approximately 1+ million consoles manufactured by Texas > Instruments from 1981 through early 1984. There were also approximately > 250,000 Peripheral Expansion Systems also manufactured. So, while it's true > there were more consoles, PEB's are not hard to find. True enough - but of the four I've come accross only 1 had a fex cable still attached to the interface. Ak. > touch response was better. The big attraction came from the fact that it was > 16-bit, had full color, sprites (smoothly-moving objects), excellent speech > synthesis, easy to use cartridges, and expandability. Some of the games were > amazing (like Parsec and Alpiner) - way ahead of its time. And you can do > word processing and spreadsheets with it as well. I'll agree here. While I'll probably never do any serious hacking on the TI, playing Miner 2049er is what it's all about ;) > << EVERYONE knows that MY COMMODORE 64 is WAY better than YOUR APPLE! >> It's hard to have holy wars like the old days when you now own all the machines you used to make fun of. > The TI-99/4A was one of the most popular computers ever made back in the > early 80's. Again, 1 million consoles gives you a hint. And, I'll tell you > why they're like roaches sitting around -- most people bought them for around > $50-100 when TI was going out of business (late 1983 into early 1984), played > a few games on them, and then said, "I'm done!". Instead of throwing them in > the garbage, they thought they were worth something, and now you see them all > around in thrift stores. I even went to a local fair around town last year > and picked one up for $5! But remember, for these people, that's all they > wanted to do with this computer. But for those that were serious, you could > do much, much more with it! I'd say a million machines pretty much explains everything. I must say that a TI99/4A hooked up with a PEB is overall a pretty neat little machine. It's really kind of sad - the average 99 I see is really beat up and missing all it's accessories. I used to pick them up here and there to use for spares but I think most of them are probably destined for the trash. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 10 16:00:26 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <199706102100.AA14628@world.std.com> > I have a question for you folks. I have a basic TI 99/4a.... that's it. N > cables, no peripherals, no nothing with it. I am wanting to get this Minimally you need the power brick that was 18Vac and 8.5vac, and also the video cable that took compossite color to channel 3/4 or the other that allowed direct hookup to the TI color monitor. FYI sams photofact had a print set for the machine and it was set CC2, TI99/4a model PHC004a. There was also a 66 page technical manual from TI on the console and expansion box. Allison From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Tue Jun 10 16:25:25 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <199706101955.AA21362@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199706102125.QAA29618@fudge.uchicago.edu> Allison J Parent said, > > I've never heard of a TDP-100. The Color Computers had ROM BASIC and > > TDP is TANDY DATA PRODUCTS when tandy was trying to seperate from the > Radiocrap idea in the early 80s. Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 was a Coco with added serial hardware included so that Radio Shack could sell it as a color video terminal. Does anyone else remember this, or am I completely out of my mind? eric From scott at saskatoon.com Tue Jun 10 16:36:14 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <199706102125.QAA29618@fudge.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Eric Fischer wrote: >> > I've never heard of a TDP-100. The Color Computers had ROM BASIC and >> >> TDP is TANDY DATA PRODUCTS when tandy was trying to seperate from the > >Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 >was a Coco with added serial hardware included so that Radio >Shack could sell it as a color video terminal. Does anyone >else remember this, or am I completely out of my mind? Wasn't that the VideoTex terminal? I'd have to dig through some old catalogs to be sure, though. >eric ttfn srw From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 10 16:56:49 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205215BE4@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> The 99/4A DIN video pinout is (format in monospace for best readability): 3 1 5 4 2 where (and no, I didn't write these descriptions, they're pretty bizarre. I typed them verbatim; if anyone can shed some light on these, let us know): 1. "12v vid" 2. R-Y (colorburst clock) 3. Audio out 4. Y 5. B-Y (ext video input?) U. Ground Kai > ---------- > From: Cord Coslor[SMTP:coslor@pscosf.peru.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 1:21 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: TI-99/4A Comments > > I have a question for you folks. I have a basic TI 99/4a.... that's > it. No > cables, no peripherals, no nothing with it. I am wanting to get this > machine up to operation and am looking for anything that you folks > might > have available. I have a large assortment of running machines in my > collection... TRS-80s, CoCo, Commodores, etc., etc., and would like to > add > this classic machine to my 'operational' collection. Can anyone help > me > out? > > Thanks in advance, > > CORD > > //*=================================================================== > ==++ > || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, > NE || > || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu > 68421-0308 || > || Classic computer software and hardware collector > || > || Autograph collector > || > ++==================================================================== > =*// > > From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 10 17:04:26 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 References: Message-ID: <339DCF6A.3B4B@rain.org> Scott Walde wrote: > > According to August 1987 Micro-80, the 600 came out in 1985, sported an > 80c88 cpu and cost $1599. I hope this helps. > Wow, that was one expensive computer! Thanks for the additional info AND source!!! From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jun 10 18:06:23 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: 4004 Message-ID: <339DDDEF.5120@ndirect.co.uk> Please have a look at my collection at: I am looking for a 4004 microprocessor. Also for an 8008. Does anybody know of one going for sale? I will pay cash or have many British computers for trade/swap. Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From s-ware at nwu.edu Tue Jun 10 17:21:26 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: <199706102100.AA14628@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > I have a question for you folks. I have a basic TI 99/4a.... that's it. N > > cables, no peripherals, no nothing with it. I am wanting to get this > > Minimally you need the power brick that was 18Vac and 8.5vac, and also the > video cable that took compossite color to channel 3/4 or the other that > allowed direct hookup to the TI color monitor. After the collapse of the market for the TI 99/4a, Radio Shack sold many of the parts (including the keyboard, the internal switching power supply, and the RF modulator/switchbox) separately as surplus items. At one point in time, I replaced the membrane keyboard, overloaded 7805, and abysmal RF modulator in my ZX81 with surplus TI equivalents. With a heatsink on the ULA and a wobble-free RAM expansion, the ZX81's uptime was enough to make the average Win95 user jealous. Not that that's saying much, though. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu ware@interaccess.com From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 10 17:13:16 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff References: Message-ID: <339DD17C.38FC@rain.org> Scott Walde wrote: > > On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Eric Fischer wrote: > >Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 > >was a Coco with added serial hardware included so that Radio > >Shack could sell it as a color video terminal. Does anyone > >else remember this, or am I completely out of my mind? > > Wasn't that the VideoTex terminal? I'd have to dig through some old > catalogs to be sure, though. VideoTex, I hadn't heard that term in a while. A while back, I got an AT&T Sceptre VideoTex terminal and was curious what it was; seemed appropriate for the collection and the price was right :). Did VideoTex die, was it a fad, a failed attempt at something, or what? From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 10 17:21:55 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff References: <199706101955.AA21362@world.std.com> Message-ID: <339DD383.32EA@rain.org> Allison J Parent wrote: > > The inboard386/pc and inboard386/at are similar save for one is designed to > replace the 8088 and is 8-bit ISA and the other the 286 with 16bit ISA. > The /PC version has 1mb of ram but with more (4mb) I could use it as a slow > (it's 16mhz) linux box. A schematic of the connector for the ram expansion > would be useful, I can hack my own board. The PC version cannot use the > motherboard ram as far as I can see in the book and even if it could I need > more. > I took a look at the one I have but didn't find any docs (it is the PC version.) It does have the daughter board though with the maiximum 2 MB of ram installed using 256-12 chips. From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jun 10 17:56:09 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: <199706102030.AA20038@world.std.com> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 16:30:09 -0400 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: TI-99/4A Comments > Hi, > > Can I say it better as...back then a lot of things were starting to shake > out, emerge and outright happen. The TI99/4a was one of those and it was > far cheaper than a PC even at it introduction price. 1980 to 1984 was an > interesting time. Who knows, if IBM and intel didn't hook up we could be > running unix on a fifth generation z8000. What a wornderful world it would be . . . > > Allison > Jeff From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 10 17:53:32 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: Power cable for Cromemco Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205215C62@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Hi all, I'm looking for a power cable for my Cromemco System 3. It's kind of a bizarre cable. The recessed male panel jack is a flattened oval, 1" by 1/2", with 3 conductors. The center ground pin is very slightly offset from the other two pins. Any thoughts where I can get one of these? thanks Kai From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 10 19:01:06 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: Power cable for Cromemco In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205215C62@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Jun 10, 97 03:53:32 pm Message-ID: <9706102301.AA02718@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 620 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970610/762254d7/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 10 19:13:37 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: 4004 In-Reply-To: <339DDDEF.5120@ndirect.co.uk> from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 10, 97 11:06:23 pm Message-ID: <9706102313.AA26330@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 276 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970610/a0699af9/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 10 18:24:30 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff Message-ID: <199706102324.AA25005@world.std.com> > Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 > was a Coco with added serial hardware included so that Radio > Shack could sell it as a color video terminal. Does anyone > else remember this, or am I completely out of my mind? Looking at the board and my moto data book says no serial devices (6850 or the like). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 10 18:24:37 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <199706102324.AA25106@world.std.com> > > After the collapse of the market for the TI 99/4a, Radio Shack sold many > of the parts (including the keyboard, the internal switching power supply The TI99/4a is not a switcher. I have both the RS powersupply board and two TI99/4a (a black one and a grey one) and neither use a switcher! Now the original ti99/4 with the chicklet keyboard (scarce) did use the switcher. Allison From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 10 18:49:34 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: 4004 References: <339DDDEF.5120@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <339DE80D.7D38@rain.org> e.tedeschi wrote: > > Please have a look at my collection at: > > > I just took a look ... VERY nice! How long has the museum been in existence and how long have you been collecting? > I am looking for a 4004 microprocessor. Also for an 8008. Does anybody > know of one going for sale? I will pay cash or have many British > computers for trade/swap. > One of the early arcade "games", a unit called BioRhythm" used the 4004 as the processor. Wish I hadn't gotten rid of them all now! I don't know if they were exported your way or not. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jun 10 18:48:01 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: Power cable for Cromemco In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205215C62@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > I'm looking for a power cable for my Cromemco System 3. It's kind of a > bizarre cable. The recessed male panel jack is a flattened oval, 1" by > 1/2", with 3 conductors. The center ground pin is very slightly offset > from the other two pins. > > Any thoughts where I can get one of these? Actually, not too odd at all. Don't know about currently (as I've not looked for a while) but these used to be quite common on office equipment. And... (if you did not see this coming) I think I have a spare or two around... (gotta turn over *all* of those rocks!) Bad ASCII art warning! /-------------\ | O O | | O | \-------------/ Looks something (nothing?) like this? eh? If you don't turn one up local, let me know and I'll try to find one to send along with the other stuff... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jun 10 18:51:43 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: 4004 In-Reply-To: <9706102313.AA26330@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Please have a look at my collection at: > > > > > > I am looking for a 4004 microprocessor. Also for an 8008. > > Every PDP-11/34a with an octal front panel has a 8008 running the > display and keypad. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) EEK! Surely you are not advocating the sacrifice of a perfectly good 11/34a just to obtain one measly chip?!? ...of course, if you are... send the rest of the parts to me! B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 10 18:56:01 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: 4004 Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20521E701@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I know where you can get a BioRythm, but not if you want to pull the chip out... Kai > ---------- > From: Marvin[SMTP:marvin@rain.org] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 4:49 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: 4004 > > e.tedeschi wrote: > > > > Please have a look at my collection at: > > > > > > > > I just took a look ... VERY nice! How long has the museum been in > existence and how long have you been collecting? > > > I am looking for a 4004 microprocessor. Also for an 8008. Does > anybody > > know of one going for sale? I will pay cash or have many British > > computers for trade/swap. > > > > One of the early arcade "games", a unit called BioRhythm" used the > 4004 > as the processor. Wish I hadn't gotten rid of them all now! I don't > know if they were exported your way or not. > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 10 19:58:19 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: 4004 In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Jun 10, 97 04:51:43 pm Message-ID: <9706102358.AA09398@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 663 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970610/84e1761b/attachment.ksh From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 10 19:12:48 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > It's hard to have holy wars like the old days when you now own all the > machines you used to make fun of. What a great line. It's FAQ-worthy. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 10 19:01:29 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: new stuff Message-ID: I couldn't resist going into a favorite thrift store today, and boy what a find I made. First there's the Tandy 1000EX. Cool, but definitely not as cool as the Burroughs adding machine! I have no idea what year this thing is from, but it's case is made of a steel frame with glass sides so you can see the mechanisms inside. I don't know how much it's worth, but I picked it up for $50. This thing is heavy (about 50-60lbs). I love it! I'm going to make it the centerpiece of my in-home museum (someday). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 10 19:05:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > I have a question for you folks. I have a basic TI 99/4a.... that's it. No > cables, no peripherals, no nothing with it. I am wanting to get this > machine up to operation and am looking for anything that you folks might > have available. I have a large assortment of running machines in my > collection... TRS-80s, CoCo, Commodores, etc., etc., and would like to add > this classic machine to my 'operational' collection. Can anyone help me > out? Your best bet is to go out to a loca thrift store or swap meet and try to find the power supply, video switchbox and what-not. You'll probably even manage to find an entire TI-99/4a with all the trimmings, and you can just use your current one for parts. Believe me, they are easy to find. I just picked one up today for $.99 (nintey-nine cents). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From sinasohn at crl.com Tue Jun 10 20:13:04 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970610182006.4107a0e8@mail.crl.com> At 02:01 PM 6/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >(there is a port) and how hard. Do they run any real OSs or some TRShack? I am told that OS-9 is a pretty good OS, but I don't have any real experience with it. I'm sure there are OS-9 resources out on the net somewhere... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 10 20:45:32 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: 4004 References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20521E701@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <339E033C.5FC9@rain.org> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > I know where you can get a BioRythm, but not if you want to pull the > chip out... > Actually, I'm not interested in getting one although they might be neat from an applications standpoint. I think I still have the docs on the 4004 and the 8008, hmmm, maybe even that BioRhythm machine. At any rate, I wouldn't pull chips from anything working just to get the component. I have a hand built ???? that looks like it might have been used for laser communication or sensing with a CK722 transistor in it. The transistor is smaller :) but there the unit sits. From sprague at VivaNET.com Wed Jun 11 00:17:31 1997 From: sprague at VivaNET.com (Mike Sprague) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff (and Tanyo Dragon computer) References: <199706101801.AA28899@world.std.com> Message-ID: <339E34EB.5684@VivaNET.com> Since we are talking about the CoCo here, I thought I would add that All Electronics (1-800-826-5432) is selling "Dragon 32 Joysticks" for $3.50 a pair. They claim that they were originally for a video game, but in fact they were actually for the Tanyo Dragon computer. The Dragon was an English CoCo clone (though had a parallel printer port rather than serial). These joysticks should work fine with a CoCo. So, if your actually looking for joysticks for a CoCo .... :-) BTW: Any one know where I can get a floppy controller for the Tanyo Dragon? I have the dragon, and would like to get it working with Floppy drives. CoCo BASIC programs are 99% compatible with the Dragon, but things written in assembly language (Floppy controllers and the better games) rarely are. ~ Mike From foxnhare at goldrush.com Tue Jun 10 23:55:33 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: Ccanner/Dig Cam/Camcorder? References: <199706070702.AAA03643@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <339E2FC5.7FED@goldrush.com> >Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:54:59 -0700 >From: Uncle Roger >Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) >I have been trying to decide the best way to get images into digital form. >Naturally, a digital camera is one way, but not the only. There's also the >photo/scanner method, camcorder/video capture, and probably others. As I >see it, the pros/cons are: >DigCam: + Easy to use, convenient > - Expensive to buy, somewhat limited capacity, > no hard copy of images (except printer output) >Photo/Scanner: + Hard Copy, can be used for other stuff too > - Film and Developing can be expensive, takes time >Camcorder: + Easy to use, Allows for selecting the right image > from several views > - Video capture hardware/software isn't cheap >So, does anyone have thoughts on which is best? I'd like a scanner for >other things, but they're expensive too. There's also the question of 35mm >vs. polaroid and type of scanner. (Not to mention where the heck would I >put it!) I've got a camcorder and my girlfriend's mac supposedly can do >video capture as is, but I've got to find software and figure it out. -----------> I myself went with the scanner, mainly because I want to do some OCR with it as well as scanning, flat bed is better than a ahndheld, and you would not believe the prices nowadays. You can get a new Microtek E3 for under $200! (for IBM or Mac!) Check your local discount mail-order firm. - - - - - - - - BTW (and to keep on-topic), anyone know of some decent OCR software that can reliably convert dot-matrix hard copy? The Omnipage LE (shipped with the scanner) can't make heads or tails out of most of it (and barely works with the dot-matrix stuff it can. :/ (I have a couple issues of the Commodore Gazzette (pre-COMPUTE!) and alot of it is dot matrix.) Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed Jun 11 01:00:37 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 79 References: <199706100702.AAA57162@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <339E3F05.1979@goldrush.com> >From: Doug Spence >Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) >On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: >> At 11:24 PM 6/1/97 -0700, you wrote: >> ><...> >> >> accessories including a CP/M cartridge for C64 >> > >> >A CP/M _carthridge_? Awesome. >> >> I just tried it yesterday. Pretty cool. The Z80 is in the cartridge. The >> package comes with a CP/M 2.2 diskette for 1541 and a condensed CP/M manual >> by Commodore (copyright 1983). There is a K-Mart price tag on the original >> box that reads $54. Not bad. NOTE: the Commodore CP/M Cart is only usable on the oldest of the 64s (usually models with the 5-pin DIN plug for video. It would seem that when Commodore debugged some video problems they tweaked the system speed slightly which made the CP/M cartridge unusable. >This reminds me... I also have a Z80 cartridge for the C64. But it's not >the one from Commodore. It's from a company called DATA 20 Corporation. >I haven't been able to get it to work. It has what looks like a connector >for a power supply on the back, but I didn't get the PS with it. It also >came without any disks, though it did have a cassette in the box with it, >which says "Use side A for Commodore 64/Use side B for VIC 20". >It's a Z-80 Video Pak, that combines the Z80 processor AND an 80-column >display adapter into one (big fat) cartridge. Are you sure the plug isn't for some sort of video cable contraption? (the Data-20 carts usually sported an 80 column composite video output.) >To quote from the box: > The Z-80 Video Pak brings the convenience of an 80 column screen and > the power of a CP/M compatible operating system to the Commodore 64. > Designed to be used with a monitor, the Z-80 Video Pak lets the > Commodore 64 owner switch to a 40 or 80 column screen in black and > white, or back to the standard color screen. All switching is done > through software and no cables need to be moved. > The Z-80 Video Pak has its own Z-80 microprocessor and operating > system which allows the 64 to run CP/M software formatted for the > Commodore 1541 disk drive. A Terminal mode which brings communication > with central data bases is included at no extra cost. The Z-80 Video > Pak also supports the advanced screen handling features of all Video > Pak models such as erase to the end of line, erase to end of screen, > and dump screen to printer. >If anyone out there knows this thing's power requirements (AAAGH! Another >wall-wart!) and where to get CP/M disks in 1541 format, please tell. :) If there is power needed for it, I haven't seen anything mentioning requirements... yet. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed Jun 11 01:13:14 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 79 References: <199706100702.AAA57162@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <339E41FA.6B63@goldrush.com> >Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:47:56 -0700 (PDT) >From: Sam Ismail >Subject: C64 thingy >I picked up a Commodore 64 a while ago that had this special board >inside. It was inserted between the keyboard and the motherboard. IE. >it had a connector that plugged into the keyboard rolex connector on the >motherboard and then the keyboard ribbon cable plugged into it. Then it >had a 9-pin male D-type connector than came out the back of the C64. My >guess is that it was for a numeric keypad or something. I forgot what >was stamped on the circuit board. Any ideas? Sounds like a keypad connector to me, I think it may be a Cardco keypad (there I think was an option to plug it into the joystick port and interface it via software. I have some other brand which uses a DIP connector (like old apple paddle/joysticks), unfortunately I do not have the 64 with the interface board though. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 01:16:19 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: (fwd) Re: CPM-L Digest - 5 Jun 1997 to 6 Jun 1997 (fwd) Message-ID: Another one, hope someone gets lucky. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Z100 free Conditions: YOU PICK UP. YOU TAKE ALL SOFTWARE AND MANUALS I live in Northeastern Maryland. Close to an I95 exit. If interested email me at ltelets@tec1.apg.army.mil It has two 5 and a quarter floppies amd a detached monochrome monitor. It runs but could make a fine boat anchor *8^) -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 01:14:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: (fwd) Free CPM computer (fwd) Message-ID: Hope someone can take advantage of this. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- TeleVideo TS802 computer uupdated with 20 meg hard drive (partitioned 10/10). Its free. Machine has several upgrades; CPU speed 5 mhz, faster memory chips, Zsystem operating system. User friendly ZCPR plus auto loading function keys and a whole bunch of other upgrades I forget. Has Wordstar ver. 4.0, dBase ll loaded and configured on the hard drive. Machine has original manual and shipping carton. It's located in Edmonton, AB, Canada you can contact me: peterc@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Peter -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 01:17:28 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: (fwd) CP/M Hardware For Sale (fwd) Message-ID: One more...hope this doesn't get annoying. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- I have the following CP/M hardware for sale: ************************* K10 ****************************** Kaypro 10 v1.9E (1983?) Boots: KAYPRO 60K CP/M Version 2.2H Occasionally returns BDOS errors when writing to the hard drive. I suspect it needs to be replaced (but maybe a good low-level format would help?) Does not have system disks (I bought it "as-is" with system installed on the hard drive). I do, however, have a copy of of the Kaypro Technical manual (the real McCoy, used by the technicians...) and the padded carrying case. Will sell all three and ship anywhere in the lower 48 for $70. ************************** K4 ****************************** Kaypro 4 (semi-cannabalized) System was plugged in when a lighting strike hit power lines System no longer sees the keyboard -- the keyboard is good and worked on another Kaypro. As I recall, the following subsystems are still good: keyboard, monitor, 2 half-height diskette drives, and most of the motherboard. (no pwr supply) Will sell and ship anywhere in the lower 48 for $35. Send email to: 72530.1626@compuserve.com If you're conveniently located in the Southeast Michigan area or Northwest Ohio (or willing to drive there), we can set up a local pickup and dispense with the hassle and expense of shipping. Thank you. From: David Venzke Compuserve: 72530,1626 Internet: 72530.1626@compuserve.com -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 11 01:38:01 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: 5 1/2" Drives References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20521E701@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <339E033C.5FC9@rain.org> Message-ID: <339E47C9.361A@rain.org> Tonight was the meeting of the Classic Computer Club here in Santa Barbara, CA. and one of the subjects brought up was the usefulness or uselessness of the old 5 1/5" floppy drives. Do any of you collectors have a use for them or need them to complete a given machine? We have a guy here in town who has been repairing these types of drives for a long time and apparently has quite a few. I probably have between 50 and 100 of these things I "saved" from the dumpster that include the early full height PC drives and the older 100 TPI drives used on the Vector machines, condition unknown in most cases. From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 01:30:57 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) Message-ID: My GOD! Has anyone seen this??? SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- here's the major info about the mini's now sitting under the Tucson sun, soon to be landfill...... PDP 11/34: two machines - one with 3 lights, 2 toggle switches and a rotary switch; one with a 4x5 keypad, rotary switch, and little digital display (led's?) PDP 11/35: full front panel with maybe 35 switches in a row across the bottom (sort of like an Imsai) Industrial 11 (in pieces) front panel looks something like 11/35, but in red and blue (even more like Imsai) RX02 pair of 8" disk drives in a box several assorted hard drives, rack mount, desk-top 14" (VERY heavy!), 9672-type CDC disk drive in cabinet, etc VAX 11/780 double-wide 5-1/2 foot high cabinet - can't get to the front so don't know if there's anybody home there..... Large rack mounted tape unit....about all I can tell is it's DEC Rack box (sitting on the ground) RK05f DEC Pack DECScope - looks sort of like a desk-top micro all-in-one keyboard/monitor several other DEC racks; many reels of tape; manuals; misc also many terminal/monitors I doubt this stuff will be around for more than a day or two..... bill_h@azstarnet.com -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 11 02:38:30 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: 4004 References: <339DDDEF.5120@ndirect.co.uk> <339DE80D.7D38@rain.org> Message-ID: <339E55F6.4E96@ndirect.co.uk> Thank you very much for your answers and suggestion about the 4004 and the 8008 I am looking for. What I would like to point out is that, if I find a machine which has them (it) in it, I would pull the chip out to put it on display, BUT I would NOT break up the machine at all. It will go with all the other items in my collection (please go and see) so that, one day, if I really wanted to, I could put the chip back where it belongs. So now that I explained myself, can anybody help me with this? I imagine the PDP is out of question due to shipping difficulties but the BioRyhtm sound small enough. More info? Thank you very much! enrico From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 11 02:49:25 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:48 2005 Subject: 4004 References: <9706102313.AA26330@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <339E5885.46A8@ndirect.co.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Please have a look at my collection at: > > > > > > > > I am looking for a 4004 microprocessor. Also for an 8008. > > Every PDP-11/34a with an octal front panel has a 8008 running the > display and keypad. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) Thank you for your help BUT I suppose the PDP would be too big and heavy for shipping it my way. Any other suggestion? Thank you very much enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jun 10 22:05:36 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: 4004 In-Reply-To: <339E55F6.4E96@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <199706110705.DAA14307@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 07:38:30 +0000 > What I would like to point out is that, if I find a machine which has > them (it) in it, I would pull the chip out to put it on display, BUT I > would NOT break up the machine at all. It will go with all the other > items in my collection (please go and see) so that, one day, if I really > wanted to, I could put the chip back where it belongs. > > So now that I explained myself, can anybody help me with this? I imagine > the PDP is out of question due to shipping difficulties but the BioRyhtm > sound small enough. More info? > > Thank you very much! > > enrico Hi, The grey/beige HP terminal with heavy keyboard that have black and white "squashed" monitor shaped does have this 8008 chip in one of its "card". Accessible by tripping two catches between the shells to hinge up the monitor to reveal the cards in bottom case part. Jason D. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 11 10:16:31 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <199706101801.AA28899@world.std.com>; from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 10, 97 2:01 pm Message-ID: <199706110916.17440@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > HI, > > In my non-op list of equipment I have three cocos apparently operational. > They are of two different styles. > > The smaller is the TRS80 color computer with real keys on the keyboard. > I have two of these one the case was wiped out, board is ok. > > The larger is TDP-100 personal color computer with chiclet keys. > > Lacking docs I presume these have rom Basic. What expansion is possible > (there is a port) and how hard. Do they run any real OSs or some TRShack? There is a ROM basic, which is essentially Microsoft. This may either be 'Color Basic' (lacks high-res graphics commands, etc) or 'Extended Color Basic'. The expansion port is a 40 way edge connector, and is the 6809 system bus with a few extras. I can find a pinout if you need it. I mentioned the OS's a few days back. If you have a disk drive, you will have disk basic in ROM. You can run 'color TRS-DOS' from disk (pretty simple OS) or OS-9 if you have 64K. OS-9, is (IMHO) a real OS. > > What's the odds of finding DOCS especially schematics? Very high. Tandy were hacker-friendly, and you could get service manuals for all their computer stuff (I have the CoCo 3 service manual). There's also a CoCo TechRef that includes the CoCo1 schematics with more explanations than the service manual gives. > Allison -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 11 10:19:26 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205208822@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>; from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Jun 10, 97 12:07 (noon) Message-ID: <199706110919.17453@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > The Color Computers were: > > Color Computer 1: Silver/black, 4K-64K > Color Computer 2: White, 4K-64K > Color Computer 3: White, 64K-128K You mean 128K-512K, I think. The CoCo 3 needed 16 bit wide RAM for the video system, and used either 4 off 64K*4 chips on the main board, or a daughterboard with 16 off 256K * 1 chips on it. Some hackers went up to 2M I think > Micro Color Computer: White, tiny, 4K > > I've never heard of a TDP-100. The Color Computers had ROM BASIC and > most serious users ran an operating system called OS-9 which was kind of > like TopView. OS-9 is actually a lot more like Unix (at least to a user). There was a graphical frontend called 'Multiview' (or some similar spelling) for OS-9 level 2, but you need a CoCo 3 and 512K to run that. > Kai -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 11 10:20:43 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <01IJWPY63BEA9355YE@cc.usu.edu>; from "Roger Ivie" at Jun 10, 97 1:15 pm Message-ID: <199706110920.17469@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > RS sold OS/9 for the color computer. I don't know what models are required > to run it. Level 1 : CoCo 1 or 2 with 64K and at least 1 drive Level 2 : CoCo 3 with 128K (512K preferably) and at least 1 drive. > > >What's the odds of finding DOCS especially schematics? > > RS published a technical manual for the color computer; I have a copy of it > somewhere. HOWEVER I found there's an app note from Motorola with schematics > that almost exactly match those in the RS technical manual. I don't recall > whether it was a 6809 app note or a 6847 app note though. If you can find a > set of old Motorola data books you may be able to find it. It's probably a 6883 (SAM) app note, isn't it? > > Roger Ivie > ivie@cc.usu.edu > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 11 10:21:59 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <199706101955.AA21362@world.std.com>; from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 10, 97 3:55 pm Message-ID: <199706110921.17485@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Color Computer 3: White, 64K-128K > > I suspect the board I have is one of these with 128k (four 41464s) and > a lot of the logic is on an ASIC. That's a 128K CoCo3. The ASIC is called the GIME (Graphics, Interrupts, Memory Enhancement) chip, and contains the video system, trivial MMU, interrupt logic, etc. > Allison -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 11 10:24:02 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <199706102125.QAA29618@fudge.uchicago.edu>; from "Eric Fischer" at Jun 10, 97 4:25 pm Message-ID: <199706110924.17497@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 > was a Coco with added serial hardware included so that Radio > Shack could sell it as a color video terminal. Does anyone > else remember this, or am I completely out of my mind? There was (I think) a thing in a CoCo case that was sold as a videotext terminal. It had a built-in (300 baud?) modem, and linked to a colour TV. I've never seen one (it wasn't sold in the UK for obvious reasons), and have no idea if the circuitry is related to the CoCo or not. > > eric > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 11 03:44:48 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: 4004 References: <199706110705.DAA14307@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <339E6580.3E5D@ndirect.co.uk> > Hi, The grey/beige HP terminal with heavy keyboard that have > black and white "squashed" monitor shaped does have this 8008 chip > in one of its "card". Accessible by tripping two catches between the > shells to hinge up the monitor to reveal the cards in bottom case > part. > > Jason D. Very nice info. Unfortunately it would be difficult for me to bump into one of those in this country but if any of you does would he/she PLEASE get it for me? Thank you -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jun 11 08:59:37 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: 4004 In-Reply-To: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca's message of Wed, 11 Jun 1997 03:05:36 +0000 References: <199706110705.DAA14307@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199706111359.GAA03746@daemonweed.reanimators.org> jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca writes: > Hi, The grey/beige HP terminal with heavy keyboard that have > black and white "squashed" monitor shaped does have this 8008 chip > in one of its "card". Accessible by tripping two catches between the > shells to hinge up the monitor to reveal the cards in bottom case > part. What you're writing about is the HP 264X line of terminals. They don't all use 8008 CPUs. The 2640s do, but I'm sure the 2645s use 8080s (and think the 2641, 2644, 2648A do too), and the 2647F uses some proprietary HP CPU. Not sure about 2642, 2647A, or the 2649s which are customized for specific applications, e.g. there was a flavor of 2649 used as the system console for HP 3000/33 minis. Fun terminals. I could go on for a while about them. The 2640s and 2641/4/5s have a facility allowing the downloading of code from the host. Somewhere around here I have a Space Invaders game and a Pac-Man game that run in the 2645s, and have heard of a driving game. Also have heard that some folks in the Gaithersburg, MD area turned a 2645 into some sort of BBS some years ago. The "two catches" are hidden. Look on the case left and right sides, you will see horizontal slots between the base and the CRT housing. Inside those horizontal slots, a couple of inches back from the front, are vertical slots. The object is to stick a "terminal key" (basically a thin flat piece of metal, but a stiff paperclip can be made to serve) into those slots to push open the catches that are at the top of the slots. While pushing, lift the CRT housing. If like most of us you have no more than two hands (and only one key) you may find it convenient to do one side at a time, which is OK. -Frank McConnell From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 11 10:19:36 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: 4004 In-Reply-To: <339E5885.46A8@ndirect.co.uk> from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 11, 97 07:49:25 am Message-ID: <9706111419.AA10876@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 338 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970611/8346c209/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 11 09:40:32 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > > << EVERYONE knows that MY COMMODORE 64 is WAY better than YOUR APPLE! >> > > It's hard to have holy wars like the old days when you now own all the > machines you used to make fun of. Ah, but once you own and _really_ learn the flaws in your old foes, you can make fun of them more knowledgeably, instead of the simple ad hominem arguments we had back in the early eighties. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 11 09:49:51 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <199706102125.QAA29618@fudge.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Eric Fischer wrote: > Allison J Parent said, > > > I've never heard of a TDP-100. The Color Computers had ROM BASIC and > > TDP is TANDY DATA PRODUCTS when tandy was trying to seperate from the > > Radiocrap idea in the early 80s. The TDP-100 was a TRS-80 Color Computer with a different paint job that could be sold by non-Tandy retailers such as Sears and K-Mart. Nothing more, nothing less. > Somewhere in the back of my head I had the ideathat a TDP-100 > was a Coco with added serial hardware included so that Radio > Shack could sell it as a color video terminal. Does anyone > else remember this, or am I completely out of my mind? The TRS-80 Videotex Terminal was basically a Color Computer that had the CompuServe Videotex program built into it instead of BASIC and an integral 300 baud modem. Possibly one of the dumbest concepts ever done by Tandy Corporation and despite being an employee I said so at the time. (The absolute stupidest move done by the company of course was the complete disavowal of third party products for so many years). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From idavis at comland.com Wed Jun 11 09:52:42 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: Scanner/Dig Cam/Camcorder? Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970611145242.008f51d4@mail.comland.com > >>DigCam: + Easy to use, convenient >> - Expensive to buy, somewhat limited capacity, >> no hard copy of images (except printer output) > >>Photo/Scanner: + Hard Copy, can be used for other stuff too >> - Film and Developing can be expensive, takes time > >>Camcorder: + Easy to use, Allows for selecting the right image >> from several views >> - Video capture hardware/software isn't cheap > Well, I guess it's time to put my two cents in. I own a Kodak DC20 digital camera, and a handheld color scanner. The digital camera is the basic model, no frills. It holds 8 hi res pics, and 16 low res pics. As far as quality goes, it really depends on the lighting conditions and the distance that you are going to be shooting at. It can get some incredible pictures, but it does have it share of bad ones. As far as taking pictures of our computers, it is great for taking good desriptive pictures (here's my pdp 11...) If you wanted to take a picture of a circuit board and be able to make out the chip numbers and wiring, forget it. It has decent resolution, but nothing like a scanner and a 35mm photo, and the light has to be right with this camera, since there is no flash (yet). I usually save the pictures in jpeg format, and each hi-res picture is about 25-35k. Not too bad on the storage side. My handheld color scanner is absolutely great. Unfortunately, I am always wanting to scan something in 1" wider than the scanner, which makes it a real pain even with great picture editing software. I would really recommend a flatbed scanner, but you might as well grab another hard drive while you are at it. Those color hi-res pictures take up more space than it took to put a man on the moon. Also, as a side note, it takes about 55 seconds to warm up the bulb on the color scanner. It's not a major gripe, just an inconvenience. Bottom line: My suggestion is - If you are looking to take pictures of your collection (for personal or insurance reasons) and store them in a safe, and take a buch of cheap pictures of your kids, go with the digital camera. If you are looking to scan in boards and pieces of equipment, and are looking for extreme detail, I would go with the scanner. I find that having both is really convenient, and I can pretty much get the results that I am looking for and not be dissappointed with either. If I only owned one of them, I could definitely see times when I would not be happy with the results. As for the Camcorder products, those are next on my list. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Wed Jun 11 10:30:42 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: new stuff In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Jun 1997 17:01:29 PDT." Message-ID: <199706111530.KAA07382@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> In message , dastar@crl. com writes: >Cool but definitely not >as cool as the Burroughs adding machine! I have no idea what year this >thing is from, but it's case is made of a steel frame with glass sides so >you can see the mechanisms inside. I don't know how much it's worth, but >I picked it up for $50. This thing is heavy (about 50-60lbs). I love >it! I'm going to make it the centerpiece of my in-home museum (someday). > >Sam Is this the one that has a row of digits for output at the bootom of the front glass panel and a printing mechanism in back. If so, I've got one of those too. It had been the adding machine my grandfather used when he founded the family business (a cotton gin). Some years ago, I found it lying out in a pile of scrap metal. Even then (I was probably in high school or college then) I guess I had a collector's instinct. Ok, that really means that I'm a packrat and cheapskate. Unfortunately on mine the carriage mechanism for the printing is rusted solid. But I do have plans to someday restore it. It'll be one of may favorite pieces in my museum (again someday). Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Wed Jun 11 10:42:27 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: (fwd) CP/M Hardware For Sale (fwd) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:17:28 PDT." Message-ID: <199706111542.KAA07424@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> In message , dastar@crl.c om writes: > >One more...hope this doesn't get annoying. > >Sam The only annoying thing is that they're all WAY too far for me to drive and pick them up. Proabaly just as well, I am alotted only so many grave looks by my wife when I bring a new toy home. Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 10:33:56 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 79 In-Reply-To: <339E41FA.6B63@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > >I picked up a Commodore 64 a while ago that had this special board > >inside. It was inserted between the keyboard and the motherboard. IE. > >it had a connector that plugged into the keyboard rolex connector on the > >motherboard and then the keyboard ribbon cable plugged into it. Then it > >had a 9-pin male D-type connector than came out the back of the C64. My > >guess is that it was for a numeric keypad or something. I forgot what > >was stamped on the circuit board. Any ideas? > > Sounds like a keypad connector to me, I think it may be a Cardco > keypad (there I think was an option to plug it into the joystick port > and interface it via software. That rung a bell. Sure enough it is a Cardco board. The mysterty is solved. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 10:41:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: new stuff In-Reply-To: <199706111530.KAA07382@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > >Cool but definitely not > >as cool as the Burroughs adding machine! I have no idea what year this > >thing is from, but it's case is made of a steel frame with glass sides so > >you can see the mechanisms inside. I don't know how much it's worth, but > > Is this the one that has a row of digits for output at the bootom of the > front glass panel and a printing mechanism in back. If so, I've got one Yes, it does. It has a typewriter-like carriage on the back with a paper tape roll. It also has a display on the front that can go up to 999,999.99. > of those too. It had been the adding machine my grandfather used when > he founded the family business (a cotton gin). Some years ago, I found > it lying out in a pile of scrap metal. Even then (I was probably in > high school or college then) I guess I had a collector's instinct. Ok, > that really means that I'm a packrat and cheapskate. Unfortunately on > mine the carriage mechanism for the printing is rusted solid. But I > do have plans to someday restore it. It'll be one of may favorite > pieces in my museum (again someday). Mine sort-of works. I can only press down a digit in the hundred-thousands column though, and a few other buttons work. I can't shift it from add to subtract mode. Any idea what year these things are from? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 11 11:09:09 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: Reminder: electronics/junk/computer sale June 14 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970611091305.29ff425a@ricochet.net> At 01:31 PM 6/10/97 -0700, you wrote: > >This is a reminder for those in the San Francisco Bay area that >on June 14 in Mountain View, there will be an junk/electronics sale. Thanks for the reminder! I've missed the last one (or two?) and would have missed this one otherwise. >There will likely be a small get together (two people so far). Anyone who >is interested in the get together let me know. There is a pretty good As of right now, the only thing on my calendar for Saturday is Flag day (and I don't own a flag.) If I can keep that open, and convince my girlfriend and/or my dad they'd enjoy it, I'll be there. (hmmm... Add to Friday's to do list: Rob Bank) Let me know details... Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 11 11:09:12 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970611091309.29ff9f36@ricochet.net> At 01:59 PM 6/10/97 -0700, you wrote: >> << EVERYONE knows that MY COMMODORE 64 is WAY better than YOUR APPLE! >> > >It's hard to have holy wars like the old days when you now own all the >machines you used to make fun of. Actually, it's easier! You can argue with yourself! (Hint: don't do this on the bus; people look at you funny.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 11 11:09:16 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: TDP-100 (was: cocos and stuff) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970611091312.29ffdc04@ricochet.net> At 04:25 PM 6/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 >was a Coco with added serial hardware included so that Radio >Shack could sell it as a color video terminal. Does anyone >else remember this, or am I completely out of my mind? They did sell a "VideoTex" terminal that sure looked like a coco. Sold it for use with CompuServe, (among others,) as I recall. Perhaps this is what you're thinking of? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 11 11:19:50 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > My GOD! Has anyone seen this??? SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING! > > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > here's the major info about the mini's now sitting under the Tucson > sun, soon to be landfill...... > I doubt this stuff will be around for more than a day or two..... ... Seen it yes, agonized over it, YES! This seems to be yet another example of what seems to be the start of a disturbing trend. (NOTE: the poster of the original message is *not* the person who has set this gear on the road to destruction - don't give him grief on this!) A message, sent out at the *last minute* by someone who has gear but is unwilling to put any effort into its salvation even if money if offered to do so. I've probably responded to 5 or 6 of these in the past two weeks, even to the point with some of offering to pay packaging and shipping for the boards out of the units if they did not find a taker for the whole unit rather than see it all go to waste. To date, all of these requests have been refused. The most common statement: (paraphrased) "if it does not go complete, I will not part it out". (no, it will just go to the dump!) Just don't know what to do with these types... Unfortunately, I don't have the resources to jump on a plane or send a shipping company out each time one of these pop up. Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want it. Or am I just dreaming out loud? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 11:24:29 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, James Willing wrote: > Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop > a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are > when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. > Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to > pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want > it. > > Or am I just dreaming out loud? Not at all. This is a terrific idea! I nominate Bill Whitson to formulate this list :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jun 11 11:30:47 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051FF342@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970611123047.00953240@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Kai Kaltenbach said: >Actually the Tandy 600 was a 1989 concoction. It looks like an early >Toshiba laptop, with flip-up narrow LCD display. It has Multiplan, a >subset of MS Word, a built-in modem, 360K 3.5" drive, 80x16 display, and >sold for $999. I passed up one of these at a swap meet a few weeks ago. > >Kai Nee-ner-nee-ner-neeeee-ner!!! I finally know something that Kai doesn't!!! ;^> Sorry, but *my* T600 was built in September of 1985! AAMAF, I have a 1989 sale flyer yet that shows the T600 in "where-is-as-is" status, for the same $$$ or cheaper than the T200. (one of which I also have!) Processor was an 80c88 and standard memory was 32K (which was close to useless, from what I hear. Mine came with 128K, so I wouldn't know.) which was expanded with up to 2 banks of 96K. Yes, the floppy was 360K, as it was single-sided with double-density. Power: 4 internal D-sized nicads giving 11 hours use with no floppy activity. Files are stored in RAM (like the 100/200/102/NEC 8201A/Olivetti M10/etc.) and can be copied to floppy using the copy command. More questions? You can ask me or the list, with the details below. There is an FTP site for the Tandy 600 at: ftp://ftp.northernway.net/Tandy600/ and there is a listserve dedicated to the Tandy 600. To find out more about the listserve, send a message to: m600-request@list.northernway.net with the word "info" or "help" in the subject. To subscribe, send a message to: m600-request@list.northernway.net with the word "sub" or "subscribe" in the subject. To post a message to the listserve, send a message to: m600@list.northernway.net and it will automatically go to several people (always looking for more, folks!) including a man named Larry Kollar, who wrote and maintains a Tandy 600 FAQ. URL for the FAQ: http://www.nyx.net/~lekollar/t600/t600faq.html Hope this helps! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Wed Jun 11 11:32:30 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: Old, old game machine, etc. In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205215C62@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: I am curious as to if anyone remembers an old game console type of thing that had two games built into ROM. If I remember correctly it was a ping pong type game and one or two others you could turn on with a flip of a switch. It had two controllers.... both paddle style. Any information on this would be appreciated. Second, does anyone have a Colour Genie computer for sale or trade? I would prefer here in the U.S. to cut down on shipping charges if possible. Also looking for cables, software, etc. Third, does anyone know how much a Tanyo Dragon 64, in the original foam, box, with all cables, and in imacualte unused condition is worth? I have one,a dn am looking for disk drives and controllers, as well as software for it. And finally, let me know if you need any TRS-80 or CoCo items, or have ANYTHING for sale. As I like to say, "always buying, selling, and trading!" Thanks a ton, CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 11 17:34:41 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: new stuff In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 11, 97 8:41 am Message-ID: <199706111634.14813@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Mine sort-of works. I can only press down a digit in the > hundred-thousands column though, and a few other buttons work. I can't > shift it from add to subtract mode. Any idea what year these things are > from? This is going towards being off-topic, so feel free to (gently) flame me, but I also have obtained a few very nice mechanical calculating machine over the years. A friend sold me (for \pounds 10 - no way its true value, but that's all he'd payed for it as scrap metal) a very nice hand-cranked Facit machine about 2 months back. It was in _perfect_ condition (the mechanism was gleaming), and after a minor adjustment, works fine. It still use it - it sits on my bedside table along with an HP67 for late-night calculations... I've got a few motorised machines, none of which work yet, but which may well be repairable when I get some time. Among them is a Monroematic which was mistreated by its previous owner (when I resuced it, it was partly dismantled, but I think I have all the important bits). I was also given a Dheil (?spell) which is complete, but needs dismantling, cleaning, and oiling. One day I'll give it a go. My father remembers ordering a very similar machine (costing about 300 pounds) for scientific work in the 1950's An interesting related machine (probably UK only) worked in the old UK money system ((4 farthings = 1 penny), 12 pence = 1 shilling, 20 shillings = 1 pound). I rescued a couple of these, one missing (alas) the platten roller and paper feed mechanism, the other complete, but with a few problems. Again, they'll get restored. Probably the most interesting mechanical 'calculator' I have isn't a calculator at all, but a printer. A place where I was working was throwing out some data logging equipment, and I was offered any bits of it that I wanted. I rescued : The friden paper tape punch and reader (the mechanisms are _identical_ to those used on my flexowriter, but are mounted on 19" panels, and have their own drive motor). The Sequence controller which was patchboard programmable, with DM160 valves (tubes) to display the current state A large pile of schematics, etc. And the printer. This was made by the Victor Comptometer Corporation, and is one of their adding machines (possibly with some linkages removed) and a bank of solenoids mounted over the keys. Very strange, and I guess, not common. > > > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 11:36:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: Old, old game machine, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > I am curious as to if anyone remembers an old game console type of thing > that had two games built into ROM. If I remember correctly it was a ping > pong type game and one or two others you could turn on with a flip of a > switch. It had two controllers.... both paddle style. Any information on > this would be appreciated. There were plenty of these made, by plenty of manufacturers. I have three different ones: A Bently-Compuvision, a generic "Pong" console and an Odyssey 300. Each has pretty much the same, exact, mind-numbing four games. They can be found from time to time at thrifts and flea markets. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 11 11:51:17 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: CCS Z80/Serial/Ram card References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20521E701@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <339E033C.5FC9@rain.org> <339E47C9.361A@rain.org> Message-ID: <339ED785.18DF@rain.org> In moving things around, I found a CCS Z80/Serial/Ram Card with about 192K of ram. It is on an 8 bit PC style card and has a DB25 male serial connector at one end. Anyone know what this thing is? The copyright date on the board is 1983. Thanks. From idavis at comland.com Wed Jun 11 11:57:41 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970611165741.0093b9f8@mail.comland.com > At 09:24 AM 6/11/97 -0700, Sam wrote: >On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, James Willing wrote: > >> Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop >> a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are >> when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. >> Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to >> pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want >> it. >> >> Or am I just dreaming out loud? > >Not at all. This is a terrific idea! I nominate Bill Whitson to >formulate this list :) > > >Sam >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > I agree completely. I would be willing to go pick up stuff headed for the dump and hold it till someone could make space for it. My house only has room for a small select few computers, but I could make room in storage until shipping could be arranged. We ought to make this like a Mr. (or Ms.) Rescue for classics. When the list is started, put me down for the Austin, TX area. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 11 12:01:26 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: (fwd) CP/M Hardware For Sale (fwd) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970611100835.4217df7c@mail.crl.com> At 11:17 PM 6/10/97 -0700, you wrote: >One more...hope this doesn't get annoying. Nope, just frustrating -- none of them are near me! 8^( --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 11 12:01:45 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: 4004 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970611100852.45570908@mail.crl.com> At 03:05 AM 6/11/97 +0000, you wrote: >Hi, The grey/beige HP terminal with heavy keyboard that have >black and white "squashed" monitor shaped does have this 8008 chip >in one of its "card". Accessible by tripping two catches between the If you're speaking of the venerable HP2645 terminal, I know it had a Z80 in it. (And some people did rig it up as a crude CP/M machine.) Dunno about the 8008 though... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 11 13:07:32 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: CCS Z80/Serial/Ram card In-Reply-To: <339ED785.18DF@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 11, 97 09:51:17 am Message-ID: <9706111707.AA04250@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 498 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970611/2f03e1f3/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 11 12:11:48 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff Message-ID: <199706111711.AA13671@world.std.com> > > RS published a technical manual for the color computer; I have a copy of > > somewhere. HOWEVER I found there's an app note from Motorola with schema > > that almost exactly match those in the RS technical manual. I don't reca > > whether it was a 6809 app note or a 6847 app note though. If you can fin > > set of old Motorola data books you may be able to find it. > > It's probably a 6883 (SAM) app note, isn't it? I don't have the app note but I do have the data book and it has a partial of what the coco1 might have been. Allison From groberts at mitre.org Wed Jun 11 12:23:51 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: VideoText In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970611091312.29ffdc04@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970611132351.00825e80@mail90> >>Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 >>was a Coco ... that Radio Shack could sell it as a color >>video terminal. >> >They did sell a "VideoTex" terminal that sure looked like a coco. Sold it >for use with CompuServe, (among others,) as I recall. there are surely some in this crowd who remember the excitement over VideoText back in the early 80's. this was a way to mix text and low quality graphics for display on a TV quality crt, combined with two-way telephone linkage. there was even a standard for it (at least in the US) called NAPLPS. this was going to be *the* way we would do everything from getting the weather report to shoppping for groceries. it never became commercially viable in the US. The excitement that drove this was a vision in people's minds of what we now know (of course) as the world wide web. it was an idea ahead of its time. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 11 12:27:43 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: Scrapping and saving classic stuff References: Message-ID: <339EE00F.20DC@rain.org> James Willing wrote: > > > Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop > a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are > when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. > Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to > pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want > it. > > Or am I just dreaming out loud? > Hi Jim, I was reading these posts also and was also trying to think of a way to handle these situations. I like your idea of an Index giving the location of collectors. I, for one, really appreciated Sam posting the stuff about available computers and can cover parts of central California without too much effort (parts of Los Angeles to San Luis Obispo or so.) I have also found places, primarily schools, that have a bunch of interesting stuff that sometimes sits for years safely stored away, and probably available for either taking it away (they need space) or for scrap prices. Another thought on a related subject is what to do with stuff all of us might have but are only being held to save it from the dump. As one example, I scrapped out a CADO CAT II computer a couple of months ago (I still have one!) that I would have preferred another collector had taken. Granted, I kept the boards and HD for spares but still. Another example is a Hard Disk/Floppy peripheral to an Exxon Office Systems model 500. The ONLY reason I have it is because I don't want it going to the dump. BTW, this is another instance where "The Big List of Classic Computers" has been a tremendous help in helping to identify computers/equipment. It would also be helpful to know the emphasis on everyones collections. For instance, mine is primarily early microcomputers and their associated documentation. Is anyone collecting the history of LAN's including early cards and software? Several months ago, I scrapped out a number of early IBM LAN cards because the space REALLY is getting to be a problem and I need to do something. I gave an early Novell Lan setup with the Gateway cards to a friend of mine to play around with. Some people might thing it is great to have the kind of problem I have with all the stuff here, but then again, I think it is better to have the problem of space needing computers :). BTW, yours was one of the first Web pages I ran across when I started to check out the Web for this type of activity ... very nice! From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 11 12:36:51 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: Printers References: <3.0.1.32.19970611123047.00953240@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <339EE233.2D57@rain.org> Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? I have several including the SWTP 40 column printer, the usual assortment of Tandy and CBM printers, a couple of DecWriters (LA36), an early Centronics, a number of daisy wheel printers, and my newest addition, an ASR 33. But I also run into quite a few (usually free) that I don't have the room or inclination to store. I would guess that most of the older printers will head for the dump with few people caring, but then again ... From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Wed Jun 11 12:49:16 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: new stuff In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:41:20 PDT." Message-ID: <199706111749.MAA07527@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> In message , dastar@crl .com writes: >On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > >> >Cool but definitely not >> >as cool as the Burroughs adding machine! I have no idea what year this >> >thing is from, but it's case is made of a steel frame with glass sides so >> >you can see the mechanisms inside. I don't know how much it's worth, but >> >> Is this the one that has a row of digits for output at the bootom of the >> front glass panel and a printing mechanism in back. If so, I've got one > >Yes, it does. It has a typewriter-like carriage on the back with a paper >tape roll. It also has a display on the front that can go up to 999,999.99. Yep, that sure sounds like it. >> of those too. It had been the adding machine my grandfather used when >> he founded the family business (a cotton gin). Some years ago, I found >> it lying out in a pile of scrap metal. Even then (I was probably in >> high school or college then) I guess I had a collector's instinct. Ok, >> that really means that I'm a packrat and cheapskate. Unfortunately on >> mine the carriage mechanism for the printing is rusted solid. But I >> do have plans to someday restore it. It'll be one of may favorite >> pieces in my museum (again someday). > >Mine sort-of works. I can only press down a digit in the >hundred-thousands column though, and a few other buttons work. I can't >shift it from add to subtract mode. Any idea what year these things are >from? It's been a while since I tried it, but I seem to remember that mine works except for the carriage. But it's at my parent's house right now so I can't refresh my memory regarding operation. As to date, I'm not really sure. Granddad started the gin in 1949 and I'm pretty sure he told me that he used it when he started it. I've seen a sketch of the original Burroughs machine introduced in 1887 and it looks significantly more primitive. For no particularly good reason, the 1920s has always stuck in my head for it. That tends to be very vaguely supported by a picture in Stan Augarten's book. It's an advertising photo showing a secretary carrying a portable Burroughs machine in about 1922 and some of the features (shape of buttons, shape of cutouts for the digits, etc) seem to be at least similar. I'd believe just about anything in the '20-'40s. Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 11 18:53:50 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <339EE233.2D57@rain.org>; from "Marvin" at Jun 11, 97 10:36 am Message-ID: <199706111753.19946@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? > I have several including the SWTP 40 column printer, the usual > assortment of Tandy and CBM printers, a couple of DecWriters (LA36), an > early Centronics, a number of daisy wheel printers, and my newest > addition, an ASR 33. But I also run into quite a few (usually free) I collect _some_ printers - the ones I consider interesting, or fine examples of engineering. Amongst the ones I have are a couple oF ASR33's (great fun to strip down and rebuild, particularly if you don't have the service manual...), a few other Teleprinters (Creed 7E, Creed 444, Friden Flexowriter), a couple of Sanders (12/7 and 700) - these are very well built 7 pin dot matrix printers that use multiple passes of the printhead (up to 8 in some fonts) to get letter quality output, a Versatec V80 (actually an ICL 6203, which has a GPIB interface), which uses an array of electrodes to build up a charge image on specially coated paper, and then pumps liquid toner over it, etc -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 11 13:23:17 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) References: <1.5.4.32.19970611165741.0093b9f8@mail.comland.com > Message-ID: <339EED15.3A0B@ndirect.co.uk> Isaac Davis wrote: > > At 09:24 AM 6/11/97 -0700, Sam wrote: > >On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, James Willing wrote: > > > >> Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop > >> a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are > >> when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. > >> Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to > >> pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want > >> it. > >> > >> Or am I just dreaming out loud? > > > >Not at all. This is a terrific idea! I nominate Bill Whitson to > >formulate this list :) > > > > > >Sam > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > > I agree completely. I would be willing to go pick up stuff headed for the > dump and hold it till someone could make space for it. My house only has > room for a small select few computers, but I could make room in storage > until shipping could be arranged. We ought to make this like a Mr. (or Ms.) > Rescue for classics. When the list is started, put me down for the Austin, > TX area. > Isaac Davis > idavis@comland.com > indavis@juno.com OK, put me down for southern England (UK) enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Jun 11 13:18:51 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <199706111816.NAA09492@challenge.sunflower.com> I personally would like a printer for every machine in my system if one was made for it and it works. Sinclair1500, Atari, 400,800xl, 1200xl, C64, TandyColor/2 Tandy Model4, and almost every apple made. ---------- > From: Marvin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Printers > Date: Wednesday, June 11, 1997 12:36 PM > > Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? > I have several including the SWTP 40 column printer, the usual > assortment of Tandy and CBM printers, a couple of DecWriters (LA36), an > early Centronics, a number of daisy wheel printers, and my newest > addition, an ASR 33. But I also run into quite a few (usually free) > that I don't have the room or inclination to store. I would guess that > most of the older printers will head for the dump with few people > caring, but then again ... From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Jun 11 13:24:55 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) Message-ID: <199706111822.NAA10203@challenge.sunflower.com> I would be happy to help in this collection, I am in Lawrence KS, USA ---------- > From: e.tedeschi > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) > Date: Wednesday, June 11, 1997 1:23 PM > > Isaac Davis wrote: > > > > At 09:24 AM 6/11/97 -0700, Sam wrote: > > >On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, James Willing wrote: > > > > > >> Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop > > >> a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are > > >> when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. > > >> Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to > > >> pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want > > >> it. > > >> > > >> Or am I just dreaming out loud? > > > > > >Not at all. This is a terrific idea! I nominate Bill Whitson to > > >formulate this list :) > > > > > > > > >Sam > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > > > > I agree completely. I would be willing to go pick up stuff headed for the > > dump and hold it till someone could make space for it. My house only has > > room for a small select few computers, but I could make room in storage > > until shipping could be arranged. We ought to make this like a Mr. (or Ms.) > > Rescue for classics. When the list is started, put me down for the Austin, > > TX area. > > Isaac Davis > > idavis@comland.com > > indavis@juno.com > > OK, put me down for southern England (UK) > > enrico > -- > ================================================================ > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > website > ================================================================ > visit Brighton: From bwit at pobox.com Wed Jun 11 12:51:53 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) Message-ID: <01BC766E.C4996A80@ppp-151-164-41-146.rcsntx.swbell.net> >Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to >develop a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where >others are when things like this pop up so that we could have some local >options. Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be >able to pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone >who did want it. This seems like an excellent suggestion. Put me down for Dallas/Fort Worth, TX. USA. Regards, Bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1605 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970611/17336c43/attachment.bin From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 11 13:55:35 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970611115933.3b5779d2@ricochet.net> >Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop >a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are >when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. >Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to >pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want An excellent idea! Sign me up! Hmm... what info? Name, location, collecting interests, etc? Uncle Roger San Francisco All computers, especially portables. or --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 11 13:57:00 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <339EE233.2D57@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? > I have several including the SWTP 40 column printer, the usual > assortment of Tandy and CBM printers, a couple of DecWriters (LA36), an > early Centronics, a number of daisy wheel printers, and my newest > addition, an ASR 33. But I also run into quite a few (usually free) > that I don't have the room or inclination to store. I would guess that > most of the older printers will head for the dump with few people > caring, but then again ... > EEK! Yes! I'd love to find one of the SWTPC 40 column printers! In my view (IMHV?) the peripherals are an integral part of the history! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From pcoad at crl.com Wed Jun 11 13:53:25 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: (fwd) CP/M Hardware For Sale (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199706111542.KAA07424@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > In message , dastar@crl.c > om writes: > > > >One more...hope this doesn't get annoying. > > > >Sam > > The only annoying thing is that they're all WAY too far for me to drive > and pick them up. Proabaly just as well, I am alotted only so many > grave looks by my wife when I bring a new toy home. > Atleast you guys have a chance. Look at my position, I live in the same general area as Sam. Anything that is far enough away from him to send notice to the list is also too far for me as well. There is a lot of classic stuff in our area, but there are a lot of collectors. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 11 14:13:23 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: Applied Processor Labs References: <339EE00F.20DC@rain.org> Message-ID: <339EF8D0.51F8@rain.org> I found another computer not on the list and one I don't have much info on. This one is an Applied Processor Labs APL/80 Microcomputer System, is an S-100 system, and uses an 8080 CPU. It has 64K of memory on a Model DM6400 Measurement Systems and Controls, Inc. board. It is one of the boxes with no internal floppy drives, and uses a Vista Computer Company floppy controller card connected to two Vista external floppy drives. It has an IMSAI SIO rev 3 board along with the APL 2 board CPU set and APL PIO card. There is one wirewrap interface card of some sort in the machine. I picked it up a couple of years ago at the TRW swap meet in Los Angeles. From what I can remember, the guy said it was built by some people associated or formerly associated with Intel. The wirewrap interface card was used (as I recall) for some sort of sign lighting control. I thought I had some documentation on it but I don't see it (yet.) Anyone know anything else about this machine? Thanks. From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 11 14:19:54 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: Printers References: <199706111753.19946@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <339EFA5A.3A07@rain.org> A.R. Duell wrote: > I collect _some_ printers - the ones I consider interesting, or fine > examples of engineering. Amongst the ones I have are a couple oF ASR33's > (great fun to strip down and rebuild, particularly if you don't have the > service manual...), a few other Teleprinters (Creed 7E, Creed 444, Friden > Flexowriter), a couple of Sanders (12/7 and 700) - these are very well > built 7 pin dot matrix printers that use multiple passes of the printhead > (up to 8 in some fonts) to get letter quality output, a Versatec V80 > (actually an ICL 6203, which has a GPIB interface), which uses an array of > electrodes to build up a charge image on specially coated paper, and then > pumps liquid toner over it, etc Nice collection! For what it is worth, I have the 3 volume set of Teletype manuals on the ASR 33, and one other (can't remember the model.) If anyone needs the manual set, I think I know where another one is. From idavis at comland.com Wed Jun 11 14:38:40 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Collectors Index Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970611193840.00914184@mail.comland.com > I can see that we are going to inundate this list with our home locations. I will go ahead and volunteer to keep the list, and put it up on my web site. If you want to be added to this list, email me idavis@comland.com with your name, city/area, and a way to contact you - email or phone. After the list is compiled, I will put it on the web, and will be able to email it to anyone involved. Maybe I can try and get some outside exposure with web search engines to help people outside of this list to be able to contact us before they take their "junk" to the landfill. Feel free to give me any contact information you want. I will only include what you tell me to. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From jlodoen at mega.megamed.com Wed Jun 11 07:38:01 1997 From: jlodoen at mega.megamed.com (Jeff Lodoen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: VideoText In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970611132351.00825e80@mail90> References: <1.5.4.16.19970611091312.29ffdc04@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199706111938.MAA06173@mega.megamed.com> > >>Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 > >>was a Coco ... that Radio Shack could sell it as a color > >>video terminal. > >> > >They did sell a "VideoTex" terminal that sure looked like a coco. Sold it > >for use with CompuServe, (among others,) as I recall. > > there are surely some in this crowd who remember the excitement over > VideoText back in the early 80's. A little confusion. CompuServe had VidTex, which was a simple protocol to automatically transmit and display graphics. (mono, RLE encoded) VideoText was something else... From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jun 11 15:12:09 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: VideoText In-Reply-To: <199706111938.MAA06173@mega.megamed.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19970611132351.00825e80@mail90> <1.5.4.16.19970611091312.29ffdc04@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970611161209.009f8ac0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Jeff Lodoen said: >> >>Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 >> >>was a Coco ... that Radio Shack could sell it as a color >> >>video terminal. >> >> >> >They did sell a "VideoTex" terminal that sure looked like a coco. Sold it >> >for use with CompuServe, (among others,) as I recall. >> >> there are surely some in this crowd who remember the excitement over >> VideoText back in the early 80's. > >A little confusion. CompuServe had VidTex, which was a simple >protocol to automatically transmit and display graphics. (mono, >RLE encoded) > >VideoText was something else... Ah, yes, but "VideoTex" was something else, as well. There was a VideoTex machine based on the CoCo1 from Radio Shack, and the name of the first telecommunications package for the Color Computer was also called VideoTex (still have my copy...) One of the original (intended) uses for the standalone VideoTex was as an affordable machine for farmers to get up-to-the-minute weather and crop reports, IIRC. I'm also not sure, but CompuServe might have had a hand in the project, prolly as the online connection to try to make this thing a reality, and that might explain the similar names between the machine and the protocol. Keep in mind that CompuSlurp back in those days was a text-only online service, and that the weather reports (again, IIRC) were supposed to include graphical data... Hope this jars a few neurons for more important folk than I, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 11 15:23:43 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: FS: Vector 3032 System Disk References: <199706111753.19946@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> <339EFA5A.3A07@rain.org> Message-ID: <339F094F.355D@rain.org> Well, not really for sale but if anyone needs one of these, let me know and I'll send it out for the cost of postage (probably a dollar or two.) I haven't fired up one of the Vector machines so I don't know what the actual contents are. However this is the description on the label: Vector Part No. 6000-008 Serial No. 31-30226 (at least on the one I am looking at now.) CP/M System for 3032 CP/M Version 2.22 Release 3 Double-sided Copyright (C) 1980 Digital Research Copyright (C) 1980 Microsoft Copyright (C) 1980 Vector Graphic Inc. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 11 15:23:55 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:49 2005 Subject: Power cable for Cromemco Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2052457ED@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Found one! Vetco here in Bellevue had a box of 'em... at the usurious price of $9.50, but what can ya do? At least I picked up some interesting 8-bit ISA cards for $1-$4 apiece, namely: - Silicon Valley ADP50 (IDE drives in PCs!) - Kaypro NEC V20 accelerator/Z80 emulator card - Kraft dual joystick adapter - Ad Lib sound card Kai > ---------- > From: James Willing[SMTP:jimw@agora.rdrop.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 4:48 PM > To: Kai Kaltenbach > Cc: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Power cable for Cromemco > > On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > I'm looking for a power cable for my Cromemco System 3. It's kind > of a > > bizarre cable. The recessed male panel jack is a flattened oval, 1" > by > > 1/2", with 3 conductors. The center ground pin is very slightly > offset > > from the other two pins. > > > > Any thoughts where I can get one of these? > > Actually, not too odd at all. Don't know about currently (as I've not > looked for a while) but these used to be quite common on office > equipment. > > And... (if you did not see this coming) I think I have a spare or two > around... (gotta turn over *all* of those rocks!) > > Bad ASCII art warning! > > /-------------\ > | O O | > | O | > \-------------/ > > Looks something (nothing?) like this? eh? > > If you don't turn one up local, let me know and I'll try to find one > to > send along with the other stuff... > > -jim > --- > jimw@agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 11 15:28:38 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Contact List Message-ID: <339F0A76.2CA6@rain.org> Hi Issac, thanks for volunteering to maintain the list! I think this is a wonderful idea and one that will help us all. Marvin Johnston marvin@rain.org (805) 6897-8881 Santa Barbara, CA Primary Interest: Early Microcomputers from the 70's and associated documentation. From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 11 15:54:06 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: VideoText In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970611161209.009f8ac0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >A little confusion. CompuServe had VidTex, which was a simple > >protocol to automatically transmit and display graphics. (mono, > >RLE encoded) > > > >VideoText was something else... > > Ah, yes, but "VideoTex" was something else, as well. There was a VideoTex > machine based on the CoCo1 from Radio Shack, and the name of the first > telecommunications package for the Color Computer was also called VideoTex > (still have my copy...) "VideoTex" was the name of all of the products we sold to connect to CompuSlave. The terminal, the CoCo ROMPak, the tape and disk programs for Mod 1/2/3/4 and for Apple ][. It was essentially a no-brainer VT-52 emulator with the ability to display the in-line low resolution graphics that CompuSlave sent. On the CoCo (as on the VideoTex terminal), it wasn't too bad. The graphics was aesthetically very deficient on the mono systems. The terms "VideoTex" and VidTex" were interchangeable -- the filename of the software was "VIDTEX". > One of the original (intended) uses for the standalone VideoTex was as an > affordable machine for farmers to get up-to-the-minute weather and crop > reports, IIRC. I'm also not sure, but CompuServe might have had a hand in > the project, prolly as the online connection to try to make this thing a > reality, and that might explain the similar names between the machine and > the protocol. Keep in mind that CompuSlurp back in those days was a > text-only online service, and that the weather reports (again, IIRC) were > supposed to include graphical data... "AgriStar" was a totally different setup, that we didn't get much call for at my RSCC in downtown Los Angeles. I never saw it in action, but it was much more than weather reports. CompuSlave was not involved, to the best of my recollection. But by the time AgriStar became a product, almost all of my attention and learning curve were dedicated to the Model 16 series and Xenix. (As much of it continues to this date, as I have a Tandy 6000 even yet, as well as AT&T 7300s running their Unix variant by Convergent Technologies, SCO Xenix Unix and OpenServer, AT&T SysV/386, Solaris and several packagings of Linux -- at work all I have is AIX and Solaris). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 11 16:07:11 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: VideoText Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2052511A2@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> A friend of mine had a TV set in 1986 that had VideoTex built-in. It was actually pretty cool as I recall. Kai From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 9 23:37:30 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Old, old game machine, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11-Jun-97, Sam Ismail wrote: >There were plenty of these made, by plenty of manufacturers. I have >three different ones: A Bently-Compuvision, a generic "Pong" console and >an Odyssey 300. Each has pretty much the same, exact, mind-numbing four >games. They can be found from time to time at thrifts and flea markets. Yes, I saw one called a Rally IV (i believe) today at the thrift. Almost picked it up for the $4 they wanted. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Coleco ADAM, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, Model 4, and Model 4P, plus Odyssey2, Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jun 11 13:27:35 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Old, old game machine, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199706112227.SAA28186@mail.cgocable.net> > > Yes, I saw one called a Rally IV (i believe) today at the thrift. Almost > picked it up for the $4 they wanted. > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > About the "thrift". Do you mean by this: Army Salvation is thrift store is one of them? Flea market that I tried in canada is poor in this technological respect. :( what else? Thanks! Jason D. From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 17:22:50 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: new stuff In-Reply-To: <199706111749.MAA07527@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > >Mine sort-of works. I can only press down a digit in the > >hundred-thousands column though, and a few other buttons work. I can't > >shift it from add to subtract mode. Any idea what year these things are > >from? > > It's been a while since I tried it, but I seem to remember that mine > works except for the carriage. But it's at my parent's house right > now so I can't refresh my memory regarding operation. Acutally, I found what the problem was this morning. There was an (unidentified) lever stuck in place. I had to unjam it, and then everything started working. What a mind-blowing contraption. > It's an advertising photo showing a secretary carrying a portable > Burroughs machine in about 1922 and some of the features (shape of > buttons, shape of cutouts for the digits, etc) seem to be at least > similar. I'd believe just about anything in the '20-'40s. I figured that same range myself. But I'm more inclined to think the 20s. The older the better. I'm hoping this will be a nice antique which I can put on display in my livingroom. It definitely adds charm to any setting. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 17:16:38 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Scrapping and saving classic stuff In-Reply-To: <339EE00F.20DC@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Hi Jim, I was reading these posts also and was also trying to think of a > way to handle these situations. I like your idea of an Index giving the > location of collectors. I, for one, really appreciated Sam posting the > stuff about available computers and can cover parts of central > California without too much effort (parts of Los Angeles to San Luis > Obispo or so.) I have also found places, primarily schools, that have a > bunch of interesting stuff that sometimes sits for years safely stored > away, and probably available for either taking it away (they need space) > or for scrap prices. I can cover most of the Bay Area (California). Of course there are at least 3 other collectors on this discussion who could as well. > Another thought on a related subject is what to do with stuff all of us > might have but are only being held to save it from the dump. As one A couple of people regularly post their trade lists (Kai for one). I am currently going through all my stuff to come up with a trade list of my own, mainly based on duplicates of systems I already own (like 6 VIC-20s, a number of TI-99/4a's...mostly common stuff). I don't want this to turn into a big trade-a-thon though. Perhaps we can start another listserve that has messages related only to buy/sell/trade? That way we won't be inundated with people spewing their requests and trade lists into the main discussion area. This would be so much easier if it were a newsgroup, but then again the quality would suffer (what with all the lame advertisement spams). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 17:20:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <339EE233.2D57@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? > I have several including the SWTP 40 column printer, the usual > assortment of Tandy and CBM printers, a couple of DecWriters (LA36), an > early Centronics, a number of daisy wheel printers, and my newest > addition, an ASR 33. But I also run into quite a few (usually free) > that I don't have the room or inclination to store. I would guess that > most of the older printers will head for the dump with few people > caring, but then again ... I've often thought of this, but it comes down to, would I rather use the space for many different computers or some computers and some printers? A printer is a printer, but since nobody really looks upon these as collectible, they are the most likely to be overlooked or sent to the scrap heap. A big problem is that they often weigh a lot and are a burden to store. Nonetheless, I have recently started to collect the old printers. I have a Commodore one, a TRS-80 one, a Tandy one, and may a couple others. But I take them somewhat reluctantly, usually as a part of a whole lot. But I figure, nobody else is going to save them, so I might as well try to save a couple. Printers are definitely going to be an interesting relic 50 years from now when hardly any from this era remain, again because of the reasons I've cited above. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed Jun 11 21:26:37 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Old, old game machine, etc. References: <199706112227.SAA28186@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <339F5E5D.66D1@unix.aardvarkol.com> jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > Do you mean by this: Army Salvation is thrift store is one of > them? Flea market that I tried in canada is poor in this > technological respect. :( what else? Jason, Yes, Salvation Army and other 2nd had stores. There are 3 such stores within a few miles of my house, so I tend to pop into them almost anytime I'm out and about. Sometimes they are a tad overpriced, but I've also gotten some really good deals at the smaller of the three. It is where I picked up the Atari 8bit stuff the other night. I just had to have the Bit-3 board when I found it! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed Jun 11 22:18:40 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Atari PSU's References: <199706112227.SAA28186@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <339F6A90.5050@unix.aardvarkol.com> Thanks to all that made suggestions concerning the Atari 8bit PSU's. I had no idea that the #CO14319 PSU was used by most of the stuff for the original 800, including the 1050 drive and the 850 interface. Thanks to the suggestions I've finally been able to verify that one of my 1050's does indeed work, though it's not likely to get used much since I normally use an IndusGT. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From william at ans.net Wed Jun 11 21:21:52 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34, as well as an offer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706120221.AA11256@interlock.ans.net> > > My GOD! Has anyone seen this??? SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING! It really is no fun being so helpless... I am on the East Coast (NYC, for those who want to make an index - a good idea!), and would have no chance of getting the things. I do make quite a few trips between here and Chicago, and could be persuaded to move large things (on a flatbed trailer) westbound for gas money. I feel a bit "unclean" tonight, as today I junked out most of the original Internet (aka NSFnet) backbone routers - big IBM PowerServer 930s. It is a shame I could not save more of them (2 are now in RCS/RIs collection, and 1 is in mine), but the beasts are definitely not carry-on luggage sized. If anyone wants historic RS/6000 _parts_, speak up and I will send it out for postage costs (I dare not sell any! I like my job!). Additionally, there are still 2 or 3 still intact in the New York area that I _may_ be able to liberate to any other interested retrocomputing clubs (with a truck or van). William Donzelli william@ans.net From transit at primenet.com Wed Jun 11 21:46:58 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <339EE233.2D57@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? > I have several including the SWTP 40 column printer, the usual > assortment of Tandy and CBM printers, a couple of DecWriters (LA36), an > early Centronics, a number of daisy wheel printers, and my newest > addition, an ASR 33. But I also run into quite a few (usually free) > that I don't have the room or inclination to store. I would guess that > most of the older printers will head for the dump with few people > caring, but then again ... > I have a wide (132-column) Toshiba dot matrix printer I picked up for a few bucks at a flea market (as part of a package deal). It needs a new printhead. A couple of local computer stores want $100 to replace the printhead, and attempts to contact Toshiba about it only led to a 900-number, voice mail jail. Any ideas on what I should do with it? From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 21:19:46 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Old, old game machine, etc. In-Reply-To: <339F5E5D.66D1@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Yes, Salvation Army and other 2nd had stores. There are 3 such stores > within a few miles of my house, so I tend to pop into them almost > anytime I'm out and about. Sometimes they are a tad overpriced, but > I've also gotten some really good deals at the smaller of the three. It > is where I picked up the Atari 8bit stuff the other night. I just had > to have the Bit-3 board when I found it! I found an interesting board the other day in a thrift shop. Its a stock-quote system. You plug it into your PC and then a monitor, and it has some link to a stock-quoter service and you get stocks quotes over your PC. I haven't looked at it in too much detail but it comes with the manual. I'm sure the service costs an arm and a leg though. And I can't remember if it came with software or not. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 11 23:51:57 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Collectors Index In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970611193840.00914184@mail.comland.com > Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970611215157.00fc98c0@agora.rdrop.com> At 02:38 PM 6/11/97 -0500, you wrote: >I can see that we are going to inundate this list with our home locations. >I will go ahead and volunteer to keep the list, and put it up on my web >site. If you want to be added to this list, email me idavis@comland.com >with your name, city/area, and a way to contact you - email or phone. After >the list is compiled, I will put it on the web, and will be able to email it >to anyone involved. Maybe I can try and get some outside exposure with web >search engines to help people outside of this list to be able to contact us >before they take their "junk" to the landfill. Feel free to give me any >contact information you want. I will only include what you tell me to. >Isaac Davis >idavis@comland.com >indavis@juno.com I'm in: James Willing The Computer Garage P.O. Box 1983 Beaverton, OR. 97075-1983 email: jimw@agora.rdrop.com Area: Oregon, Washington Thanks for taking this on! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 11 23:55:44 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34, as well as an offer In-Reply-To: <199706120221.AA11256@interlock.ans.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970611215544.00fcb344@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:21 PM 6/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >> > My GOD! Has anyone seen this??? SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING! > >It really is no fun being so helpless... Well said... >I feel a bit "unclean" tonight, as today I junked out most of the >original Internet (aka NSFnet) backbone routers - big IBM PowerServer >930s. It is a shame I could not save more of them (2 are now in RCS/RIs >collection, and 1 is in mine), but the beasts are definitely not carry-on >luggage sized. Better some than none! >If anyone wants historic RS/6000 _parts_, speak up and I will send it out >for postage costs (I dare not sell any! I like my job!). Hmmm, some detail perhaps? I may be interested. Thanks! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Thu Jun 12 00:29:19 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Free (maybe): Tandy 10 MB Drive Case Message-ID: <339F892F.3C8B@oboe.calpoly.edu> Hey! I put an old 10 MB hard drive case on AuctionWeb last week. Nobody is bidding on it so if it doesn't sell, it's free. It's just a white case with a fan and power supply. A really nice guy wrote and offered the drive that goes in it for shipping only (see bottom of message). Auction ends tomorrow-hurry! Here's what you do, go to the auction link: http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=dkq99203 Bid $1. If nobody outbids you, it's yours for shipping only. Just remind me if I don't recognize your email address. Shipping should be less than $5. You could do the whole thing for less than $10. Worth it? I dunno. ? By the way, there's an Imagewriter I that's only up to $3+shipping at: http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=qpa201 ? And a cool like new thermal printer for laptops (circa 1984) at: http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=yrk8174 ? And I have a few C-64's and 1541 drives that are dead. Free + shipping if anyone's interested. Oh and a Okimate 10 printer that's laying around too. *** The guy with the drive that goes in it is: > Subject: tandy hd case > Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 21:03:20 PDT > From: "Roger LaPointe" > To: gmast@oboe.aix.calpoly.edu > > > I've got a 10 meg hd (tandon) that came in one of the cases. > > if you can use it, you can have it for the actual ups costs. ($3 or $4 ???) > it just sits on the shelf, and I hated to throw it away (along with all the > Seagate ST-225's) > > thanx Roger > > From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Jun 12 00:24:19 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An interesting sidenote on printers: A friend of mine works at a university and was recently having problems with the sudents/faculty "wasting" paper. (i.e. printing out 1000 page documents on the laser printers.) My solution: Replace the laser printers with my fleet (currently 5) of daisy wheel printers. He didn't go for it... Would've been worth it tho just to see their faces! Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Jun 12 00:32:50 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Filling in the holes... Message-ID: Hi guys, my collection is still on the small side (25 or so) and lately I've just been trying to cover "all the bases." I'm mainly interested in 80's micros (since that's what I grew up with) and have a few holes to fill. OK, enough filler, here's what I need: - I *still* don't have an Atari! - I'd like a MSX machine as well (never even seen one in anything other than magazine articles) - and maybe a Timex just for the hell of it. If anyone has any duplicates that they'd like to sell/trade etc. than PLEASE let me know! I live in the (relatively) Philadelphia area. BTW, someone on this mailing list mentioned that they needed the TI Speech box. If by this you mean the Speech Synthesizer that plugged into the side than I have 2 (and only 1 TI) so.... However, if you mean the Terminal Emulator II cartridge than, sorry, I only have 1 of those! :( Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From idavis at comland.com Thu Jun 12 00:52:41 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue List Message-ID: <199706120614.BAA03264@ds9.comland.com> Ok, I have taken the info I got from today, and put it up on the web. Nothing fancy, and I haven't indexed it yet with any search engines. Take a look at it and let me know what you think, or if you want to change your information. The url is: http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html Any suggestions? Let me know and I will change it before we tell the rest of the world about it. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 02:07:40 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Z-Letter References: <3.0.1.32.19970611215157.00fc98c0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <339FA03C.2631@rain.org> Jim Willing wrote: > > James Willing > The Computer Garage > P.O. Box 1983 > Beaverton, OR. 97075-1983 > I think you are in the neighborhood of where the Z-Letter was published. I had heard that the publisher was going to sell off his collection of computers (400+ the last I heard a few years ago.) Any idea what has happened to the collection as well as perhaps the archives of the Z-letter? From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 02:15:48 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue List References: <199706120614.BAA03264@ds9.comland.com> Message-ID: <339FA224.71EA@rain.org> Isaac Davis wrote: > > Ok, I have taken the info I got from today, and put it up on the web. > Nothing fancy, and I haven't indexed it yet with any search engines. Take a > look at it and let me know what you think, or if you want to change your > information. The url is: > > http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html > Hi Isaac, I just took a look at the page and it looks good! I think this type of page is a first on the Internet and I suspect it will provide a lot of leads quickly once people start to hear about it. As far as my info, could you add that my main area of interest is microcomputers from the 70's with the associated documentation? Thanks! From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 02:28:36 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Printers References: Message-ID: <339FA524.4E33@rain.org> Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > I have a wide (132-column) Toshiba dot matrix printer I picked up for > a few bucks at a flea market (as part of a package deal). It needs a > new printhead. A couple of local computer stores want $100 to replace > the printhead, and attempts to contact Toshiba about it only led to a > 900-number, voice mail jail. > > Any ideas on what I should do with it? I really wish I had a feel for what types of things that will be considered significant 10, 20, and more years down the road. I have given quite a few (working) printers away to people and organizations that can use them. More and more people seem to want the laser or Ink Jet printers and impact type printer applications are getting more and more scarce. What I would do is put it in a corner, keep my eye out for another broken printer with a good print head and wait ... until I find the printer head, someone who wants it, or need the space and junk it! I have an epson and a couple of oki printers in that state right now that will most likely hit the junk pile. Hmmm, how about another want list of components needed to make something work? From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 02:36:19 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Filling in the holes... References: Message-ID: <339FA6F3.3AFA@rain.org> Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > - I *still* don't have an Atari! > That one is most likely easy once you tell us *what* Atari you would like. I still have the original Atari 400 and peripherals that I paid about $1500 or so for when it first came out. Neat machine! I have several 400's and 800's although I need to check them out to make sure they still work (I sometimes get non-working machines and get them mixed in with the working ones.) > - I'd like a MSX machine as well (never even seen one in anything other > than magazine articles) > What is an MSX machine? > - and maybe a Timex just for the hell of it. > The Timex machines are still fairly easy to obtain out here. If you can't find one back there, let me know as I have (I think) three of them. With any luck though, someone will respond who lives on your side of the country :). > If anyone has any duplicates that they'd like to sell/trade etc. than > PLEASE let me know! I live in the (relatively) Philadelphia area. > From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 11 19:47:01 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Terak 8510a Message-ID: Oh yes! I finally own a little bit of a PDP. The Department of AI at the university here just disposed of some of its old hardware and I ended up with a Terak 8510a with extra floppy (8512) and monitor, keyboard (8532). Lovely!!! It's a really neat and fast machine. FYI, it has a four-slot backplane with an LSI-11 board (with FPU), 28kw of MOS RAM, a brilliant framebuffer card (640x240 text and 320x240 graphics at the same time -- the card mixes both modes on the same screen and allows hardware panning, smooth scrolling and other effects), Shugart floppy interface, RS-232/current loop and some other strange card (probably for controlling some robotic device of sorts -- useful). It came with all of its documentation (disgustingly complete, including business reply card with `READ THIS NOW' written at the back, brochures, reference cards, RT-11 manuals, Shugart tech ref (so you want to take apart your Shugart 8" drive's head assembly?), etc). Also a set of original red-and-purple(?) PDP-11 manuals for RT-11. And to top it off, there were a few 1978-1979 DEC PDP manuals for various architectures. They're in almost mint condition, but the paper is really showing its age. GOOD documentation, though. Software-wise, there are both of the common OSs for the Terak: RT-11 and UCSD P-System/Pascal (haven't worked with this in ten years, but my fingers still remember how to press 'F','L',':' really fast). Lots of languages, including Logo, BASIC and Prolog (it *was* a DAI machine, you see). The 12" monitor is rock steady and displays a clear image in P3 phosphor (sort-of paper white) and the keyboard is refreshingly 70s with nice clunky keys that, however, are really comfortable for touch typing once you get used to them. Oh yes, I also got a boxed TI-99/4A with all its manuals and a memory expansion box, but that is probably too common for you folks in the States and certainly too mundane in comparison to the Terak. I'm a happy man. :-) PS: Oh, the department has quite a nice collection of old stuff, including a PERQ that just seemed to attract a lot of drool. They're keeping it, though -- it's going to a real museum (not computer related, though). All in all, I think I must have looked too much like a kiddie in a sweet shop. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 12 13:19:51 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Terak 8510a In-Reply-To: ; from "Alexios Chouchoulas" at Jun 12, 97 1:47 am Message-ID: <199706121219.5293@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Oh yes! I finally own a little bit of a PDP. The Department of AI at the > university here just disposed of some of its old hardware and I ended up > with a Terak 8510a with extra floppy (8512) and monitor, keyboard (8532). > Lovely!!! Oh, you lucky thing!. The Terak is a machine I'm looking out for, and I've never managed to find one. Whatever you do, look after it. > PS: Oh, the department has quite a nice collection of old stuff, including a > PERQ that just seemed to attract a lot of drool. They're keeping it, Any ideas as to which model? If it's the long-lost PERQ T4, serial number DEMO01, I'll not be responsible for my actions :-).... Seriously, if you are looking out for a PERQ, and don't really mind which model you get (They are _ALL_ fine machines), you are very likely to find one. An advert on alt.sys.perq will often get results. > though -- it's going to a real museum (not computer related, though). Pity. That machine should be kept running, and not just stuck in a museum... > All in all, I think I must have looked too much like a kiddie in a sweet > shop. Or like I did when faced with 10 tables covered in DEC spares and the comment 'Take whatever you want' ! -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 12 08:01:16 1997 From: nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk (Nick Challoner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions Message-ID: <866116958.103556.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Hi all... I just picked up an Atari 2600 with 3 catridges but there's no power supply or joysticks. I'm not complaining though, as it only cost 5 Pounds from from a charity shop here in London! So, the predictable question is what are the specs for the power supply? (i.e. voltage, current and polarity of what appears to be a 3.5" jack). Also can i use the joysticks from a ZX Spectrum or TI-99/4A with it? If not, can anyone give me details of the pin-out so i can wire up my own? TIA...Nick. PS I've been having a little surf trying to find this info, and in my travels came across a site that has a 2600 emulator for download on various platforms! It's at -- Nick Challoner nickc@ladyland.demon.co.uk Aviation photographs at: http://www.ladyland.demon.co.uk "Bother" said Pooh, as he deleted his root directory. From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Thu Jun 12 08:00:52 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34, as well as an offer In-Reply-To: <199706120221.AA11256@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Jun 11, 97 10:21:52 pm Message-ID: <199706121300.IAA06982@mastif.ee.nd.edu> > > > > My GOD! Has anyone seen this??? SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING! > > It really is no fun being so helpless... > > I am on the East Coast (NYC, for those who want to make an index - a good > idea!), and would have no chance of getting the things. > > I do make quite a few trips between here and Chicago, and could be > persuaded to move large things (on a flatbed trailer) westbound for gas > money. > > I feel a bit "unclean" tonight, as today I junked out most of the > original Internet (aka NSFnet) backbone routers - big IBM PowerServer > 930s. It is a shame I could not save more of them (2 are now in RCS/RIs > collection, and 1 is in mine), but the beasts are definitely not carry-on > luggage sized. > > If anyone wants historic RS/6000 _parts_, speak up and I will send it out > for postage costs (I dare not sell any! I like my job!). Additionally, > there are still 2 or 3 still intact in the New York area that I _may_ be > able to liberate to any other interested retrocomputing clubs (with a > truck or van). > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > > Hello - I am running a model 580 and a parts machine would be great. What model do you have? John Ott ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jun 12 08:24:03 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions Message-ID: <199706121324.IAA26879@challenge.sunflower.com> The joysticks, for the c64, atari2600, atari 400,800,1200 series of computers are all identical. Any joystick that is rated for these machines will work just fine. I'll have to double check, but im pretty positive the power is 9vDC around 300mv, possibly up to 500mv, not sure. ---------- > From: Nick Challoner > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Atari 2600 questions > Date: Thursday, June 12, 1997 8:01 AM > > Hi all... > > I just picked up an Atari 2600 with 3 catridges but there's no power > supply or joysticks. I'm not complaining though, as it only cost 5 > Pounds from from a charity shop here in London! > > So, the predictable question is what are the specs > for the power supply? (i.e. voltage, current and polarity of what > appears to be a 3.5" jack). > > Also can i use the joysticks from a ZX Spectrum or TI-99/4A with it? > If not, can anyone give me details of the pin-out so i can wire up my > own? > > TIA...Nick. > > PS I've been having a little surf trying to find this info, and in my > travels came across a site that has a 2600 emulator for download on > various platforms! It's at > > > -- > Nick Challoner nickc@ladyland.demon.co.uk > Aviation photographs at: http://www.ladyland.demon.co.uk > "Bother" said Pooh, as he deleted his root directory. From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 12 08:56:44 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > A friend of mine works at a university and was recently having problems > with the sudents/faculty "wasting" paper. (i.e. printing out 1000 page > documents on the laser printers.) My solution: Replace the laser > printers with my fleet (currently 5) of daisy wheel printers. Just make sure that the printers are loaded with endless fabric ribbons rather than the expensive one-shot carbon film items. What printers do you have? I'm looking for a TRS-80 DWP-II (the original grey case -- not a IIb). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 10:48:19 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions References: <866116958.103556.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <33A01A43.2FAB@rain.org> Nick Challoner wrote: > > I just picked up an Atari 2600 with 3 catridges but there's no power > > So, the predictable question is what are the specs > for the power supply? (i.e. voltage, current and polarity of what > appears to be a 3.5" jack). > The one I have is Model C010472, 9 VDC @ 500ma, and center pin positive. > Also can i use the joysticks from a ZX Spectrum or TI-99/4A with it? > If not, can anyone give me details of the pin-out so i can wire up my > own? > Can't help with compatibility although the pinout for the Atari Joystick is: Pin 1 - Forward Pin 2 - Back Pin 3 - Left Pin 4 - Right Pin 5 - No Connection Pin 6 - Trigger Pin 7 - No Connection Pin 8 - Ground Pin 9 - No Connection From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jun 12 10:51:43 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Another one to be rescued? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 02:38:43 GMT From: Micah Voiers Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: FS: pdp 8 I have what I think are 2 pdp 8(a I think) I see two omni hex processor boards, 2 rko 5 drives( one has some rust on one side), two case things with power supply, 4 or 5 memory boards a few controllers, 1 face plate. FREE, OBO. The pdp is in Austin, I am in Ft Worth, Texas. I would rather not haul this thing up here. I won't ship it cause that would seem like a major pain in the neck., unless ya pay, a lot. Also got about 10 trs-80 model 3's. I would like to keep this for historical sake but it is heavy and takes up a lot of space. Let me know micah1@flash.net Oh yea, I should mention the last time this thing was fired up about 5-7 years ago it had some sort of problem with it staying powered up or something. They where not able to get the data off their disks. Other then that I don't know anymore details. The original owners of this thing was Robert Mueler(sp?) Airport(ATC at its best). --- So, anyone in the Austin, TX area want to grab this one either for their collection, or for holding while it seeks a home? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From william at ans.net Thu Jun 12 10:54:28 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34, as well as an offer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970611215544.00fcb344@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <199706121554.AA08268@interlock.ans.net> > >If anyone wants historic RS/6000 _parts_, speak up and I will send it out > >for postage costs (I dare not sell any! I like my job!). > > Hmmm, some detail perhaps? I may be interested. I have some 8mm tape drives (SCSI), 1.44 diskette drives (should work in a PS/2...hey! who just threw that rotten tomato!), RS/6000 SCSI and RS-232 cards (will not work in a PS/2), some big IBM ASICs with zillions of pins and big heatsinks, and a Powerserver 930 motherboard (I do not know if the thing will function without the front panel - lights, buttons, keyswitch). I suppose this stuff is not classic yet (three years to go, for most entrance rules), but came from somewhat important machines (yes, all of your freinds will say "so what?"). William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Thu Jun 12 10:56:27 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34, as well as an offer In-Reply-To: <199706121300.IAA06982@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Message-ID: <199706121556.AA08403@interlock.ans.net> > I am running a model 580 and a parts machine would be great. What > model do you have? Powerserver 930 (I think it they were 7015-930s). William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 12 11:01:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions In-Reply-To: <866116958.103556.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Nick Challoner wrote: > Hi all... > > I just picked up an Atari 2600 with 3 catridges but there's no power > supply or joysticks. I'm not complaining though, as it only cost 5 > Pounds from from a charity shop here in London! > > So, the predictable question is what are the specs > for the power supply? (i.e. voltage, current and polarity of what > appears to be a 3.5" jack). 9volts, 500ma, although anything from 250ma will do. > Also can i use the joysticks from a ZX Spectrum or TI-99/4A with it? > If not, can anyone give me details of the pin-out so i can wire up my > own? The joysticks are simply on/off contact switches. You should be able to find at least one of those even in the most remote corners of the world. > PS I've been having a little surf trying to find this info, and in my > travels came across a site that has a 2600 emulator for download on > various platforms! It's at > You should also be able to find a site whereby you can order a joystick from. There are probably a couple places in Europe. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From idavis at comland.com Thu Jun 12 11:26:07 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Another one to be rescued? Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970612162607.008decb4@mail.comland.com > At 08:51 AM 6/12/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Oh yea, I should mention the last time this thing was fired up about >5-7 years ago it had some sort of problem with it staying powered up >or something. They where not able to get the data off their disks. >Other then that I don't know anymore details. The original owners of >this thing was Robert Mueler(sp?) Airport(ATC at its best). > >--- > >So, anyone in the Austin, TX area want to grab this one either for their >collection, or for holding while it seeks a home? > >-jim >--- >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > Jim, I have already emailed Micah, and am waiting for a response. Here a conincidence for you. My dad works for the FAA, at Robert Mueller as the Radar Technician. If I get this, I will see if he knows about it. I will let everyone know how it goes. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From idavis at comland.com Thu Jun 12 12:57:55 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue List is Up. Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970612175755.00937628@mail.comland.com > Hey everyone. There has been a great response to the list of people willing to go out of their way to pick up our beloved classics and save them from a fate worse than death. I have added all of the people that have requested it so far today, and did a little work on the page. I think it is ready for the general public to know about. There wasn't a single complaint about any part, so I think that's a thumbs up. I will be getting it listed in the major search engines on the web, so maybe we can get some real results from it soon. I am currently in the process of attempting to get a couple of pdp8's, and am working on arrangements to store them for a fellow classic computer list subscriber until he can pick them up. Exactly what this list is all about. Comments are more than welcome, and let me know if you want to be on the list. http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, idavis@comland.com | check out the Classic Computer Rescue List - indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html From Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 12 12:22:03 1997 From: Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk (Pete Robinson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions In-Reply-To: <866116958.103556.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <866116958.103556.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk>, Nick Challoner writes >Hi all... > >I just picked up an Atari 2600 with 3 catridges but there's no power >supply or joysticks. I'm not complaining though, as it only cost 5 >Pounds from from a charity shop here in London! > should have tried a car boot sale, they are very much cheaper. >Also can i use the joysticks from a ZX Spectrum or TI-99/4A with it? >If not, can anyone give me details of the pin-out so i can wire up my >own? The kempston joystick interface allowed you to use the atari joystick on a speccy, so any old speccy stick that's kemptson compatible will work. -- Pete Robinson pete@madhippy.demon.co.uk http://www.madhippy.demon.co.uk - 8-bit, faqs, emulators, web utilities. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jun 10 03:45:22 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <339EE233.2D57@rain.org> Message-ID: On 11-Jun-97, Marvin wrote: >Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? I currently have a Commodore VIC-1525, Commodore MPS-803, the ADAM printer, amd am awaiting the arrival of an Atari 8bit printer. Also I am working on a lead for an Aquarius thermal printer. I mainly pick up the machine-specific printers, vice the early generic ones, though my first printer was an old Star-Micronics LV-2010. Nice little printer. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Coleco ADAM, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, Model 4, and Model 4P, plus Odyssey2, Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jun 10 03:48:57 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11-Jun-97, James Willing wrote: >Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop >a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are >when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. >Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to >pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want >it. Jim, Sounds like a good idea, and you could most certainly put me down for the Virginia area (southern Maryland, eastern Virginia, northeast North Carolina). Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Coleco ADAM, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, Model 4, and Model 4P, plus Odyssey2, Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Jun 12 14:47:42 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:50 2005 Subject: Filling in the holes... In-Reply-To: <339FA6F3.3AFA@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > That one is most likely easy once you tell us *what* Atari you would > like. I still have the original Atari 400 and peripherals that I paid > about $1500 or so for when it first came out. Neat machine! I have > several 400's and 800's although I need to check them out to make sure Preferably, one of the older ones (400/800, not XL, XE, etc.) > > - I'd like a MSX machine as well (never even seen one in anything other > > than magazine articles) > > > > What is an MSX machine? From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jun 12 06:04:32 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: REAL plug&play hardware Message-ID: I had my Atari 800 up and running again today, testing out my 1050 drive and such, and decided to toy with the Atari 1030 modem I have sitting here for it. I had forgotten how interesting an item it is. For those of you that aren't familiar with it, it's an external 300baud modem that plugs into the same general I/O ports as the Atari disk drives and such. You turn on the modem first, then the Atari 8bit, and the 8bit actually boots into a program called 'Modemlink', which is stored in ROM on the modem. No disks, cartridges or anything...just the computer and the modem! Modemlink is pretty basic, but it does autodial. Might be time to fire it up and try it again on one of the local C-64 BBS's running on the Color64 software still since they support 40 column mode. That certainly beats the heck out of the compatibility issues I had to deal with concerning terminal programs and BBS's on the PC with early 1200 and 2400 baud modems. Not to mention there's no setup. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Coleco ADAM, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, Model 4, and Model 4P, plus Odyssey2, Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Jun 12 14:57:28 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > Just make sure that the printers are loaded with endless fabric ribbons > rather than the expensive one-shot carbon film items. > > What printers do you have? I'm looking for a TRS-80 DWP-II (the original > grey case -- not a IIb). > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe Oh, just some of the general Centronics this printer will work with any computer type printer. I have a Juki (really heavy) a Royal Lettermaster or something like that (surprisingly cute) some kind of Epson and two others I forgot about. I've also got a few DOT matrix printers like an old Seikosha that looks like it has LESS than 9 pins and my Aunt just gave me an Epson 132 character printer. For Commodore's I have a few dot matrix clones, a 1520 plotter (really neat, really slow) and my favorite, a little receipt paper printer (doesw graphics too!!!!) Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From MPritchard at ensemble.net Thu Jun 12 15:51:07 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions Message-ID: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C737@consulting.ensemble.net> > > PS I've been having a little surf trying to find this info, and in > my > > travels came across a site that has a 2600 emulator for download on > > various platforms! It's at > > > > >You should also be able to find a site whereby you can order a > joystick > >from. There are probably a couple places in Europe. > > From my investigations, new joysticks for the 2600/etc are getting a > might hard to come by. From what I can tell, no one is making them > anymore. I do know that Video 61 has them. > > -Matt Pritchard > > > From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Thu Jun 12 15:58:01 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: MSX comments.... (Re:) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > > - I'd like a MSX machine as well (never even seen one in anything other > > > than magazine articles) > > > > > > > What is an MSX machine? > > >From what I gather, it was an early attempt ('84-'85) at computer > "standardization" by a number of large companies (Sony, Yamaha, Panasonic, > Sanyo, Hitachi, Goldstar, and a bunch of others. The systems were all (?) > Z80 based with a TI graphics chip and generally had 48-64k of memory. > > MSX stands for Microsoft Extended (oh no!) and the OS, called MSX-DOS was > format compatible with MS-DOS and apparently had smoe CP/M functionality. > MSX failed miserably, mostly because for the time period, the technology > was old. (Amiga's, Macs, and ST's on the way) > Actually, to make a few clarifications, as far as I know, on the above questions and answers. MSX does NOT stand for Microsoft Extended. That basically was a bad rumor. The MSX was an attempt and a world-wide standardization of computers by several companies. I'm not quite sure if MSX-DOS was format compatible with MS-DOS.... I don't think it was. And, finally, this project (the MSX) did NOT fail miserably. In the United States, teh MSX did fail miserably... but mainly because of the fact that it was not widely marketed here. The MSX was VERY popular in Asia and, I believe, in Europe. To tell you the truth it still is! I happen to be a fan of the MSX, and can to you the quality of the many, many, game titles for it are quite similar to that of first Nintendo Entertainment System. Many of the games were sold on both platforms.... such as Metal Gear, Donkey Kong, Dig-Dug, F-16 Fighting Falcon, Frogger, Galaga, The Goonies, Zelda, Thexder, Zaxxon, etc., etc. A large manufacturer of game software for the MSX was Konami, and world-wide leading game manufacturer. So, that should let you know about some fo the MSX capabilities. Anyway, maybe some of our European and Asian friends out there could let us know more about the MSX? I personally do not have a machine, but have tons of MSX software running on emulators on my PC. I would love to get one, so again, if anyone has one for sale, please let me know. Look forward to hearing from you, CORD G. COSLOR Archive Software PO Box 308 Peru, Nebraska 68421 (402) 872- 3272 From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Thu Jun 12 16:02:00 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Atari 800 Atari Artist cart? Message-ID: Howdy: Does anyone out there have the old Atari 800LX Atari Artist cartridge? It is catalog # RX8053. Please let me know as I have been looking for it for some time. Thanks, CORD COSLOR Archive Software //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 12 16:09:34 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: REAL plug&play hardware In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > same general I/O ports as the Atari disk drives and such. You turn on the > modem first, then the Atari 8bit, and the 8bit actually boots into a program > called 'Modemlink', which is stored in ROM on the modem. No disks, cartridges > or anything...just the computer and the modem! Modemlink is pretty basic, but What a sweet paradigm. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 12 16:07:08 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Filling in the holes... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > What is an MSX machine? > > >From what I gather, it was an early attempt ('84-'85) at computer > "standardization" by a number of large companies (Sony, Yamaha, Panasonic, > Sanyo, Hitachi, Goldstar, and a bunch of others. The systems were all (?) > Z80 based with a TI graphics chip and generally had 48-64k of memory. > > MSX stands for Microsoft Extended (oh no!) and the OS, called MSX-DOS was > format compatible with MS-DOS and apparently had smoe CP/M functionality. > MSX failed miserably, mostly because for the time period, the technology > was old. (Amiga's, Macs, and ST's on the way) Cool! I want one of these. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 12 16:05:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue List is Up. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970612175755.00937628@mail.comland.com > Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > Hey everyone. There has been a great response to the list of people willing > to go out of their way to pick up our beloved classics and save them from a > fate worse than death. I have added all of the people that have requested > it so far today, and did a little work on the page. I think it is ready for > the general public to know about. There wasn't a single complaint about any > part, so I think that's a thumbs up. I will be getting it listed in the > major search engines on the web, so maybe we can get some real results from > it soon. I am currently in the process of attempting to get a couple of > pdp8's, and am working on arrangements to store them for a fellow classic > computer list subscriber until he can pick them up. Exactly what this list > is all about. Comments are more than welcome, and let me know if you want to > be on the list. > > http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html What a great service! Thanks for taking this on, Isaac! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From idavis at comland.com Thu Jun 12 16:20:13 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970612212013.00905720@mail.comland.com > Here's one for the printer books. I had a printer for my atari 800 that we order out of the DAK catalog. It used a little cartridge shaped like a bullet with a contact on the end. The printer would fire a spark and actually burn the dots onto the paper to make the characters. It was relatively slow, but considering it had to make about 9 passes to form a row of characters it did pretty well. I can still remember the burning smell everytime you would print something out. It was really a neat little printer, and I can't for the life of me figure out why we got rid of it. I still have the driver disk for it, but the actual name of the thing escapes me right now. Wait a minute, it was an Olivetti, but I can't remember the model. The coolest part was turning the lights off when it was printing and watching the sparks fly across the paper as it printed. That's a printer I would like to have again. Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, idavis@comland.com | check out the Classic Computer Rescue List - indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Thu Jun 12 16:22:43 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34, as well as an offer In-Reply-To: <199706121556.AA08403@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Jun 12, 97 11:56:27 am Message-ID: <199706122122.QAA07103@mastif.ee.nd.edu> > > > I am running a model 580 and a parts machine would be great. What > > model do you have? > > Powerserver 930 (I think it they were 7015-930s). > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > Mine are 7013s, so I'll pass. Thanks. John ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 12 18:16:38 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: REAL plug&play hardware In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 12, 97 02:09:34 pm Message-ID: <9706122216.AA28309@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 605 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970612/b6de3b4c/attachment.ksh From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 12 06:30:20 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Filling in the holes... In-Reply-To: <339FA6F3.3AFA@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > What is an MSX machine? MicroSoft eXtended Basic. Bill's attempt to take over the Japanese home computer marker, ooh, 14 years ago. It produced a standard machine: Z80 at 3.5 MHz, GI AY-3-8912 for sound, TMS-9918A for video, MS Basic in ROM and external ROM cartridges) that was implemented by a lot of Japanese manufacturers (and Spectravideo who IIRC inspired the hardware specs with their older SVI models [318, 328]). I don't think it did very well in the States, but it sold a bit in Europe (esp. Netherlands and UK) and I guess it must have sold a lot in the Far East. They're typically nice, robust machines with good, complete typewriter keyboards and, most of the times, prominent designer cursor keys in bright colo[u]rs. The BASIC is really powerful (it's effectively what PC users knew as GW-BASIC), allowing direct control of the video/audio hardware *plus* indirect, high-level control (eg LINE, DRAW, PLAY, etc). Alexios --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jun 12 18:56:28 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: classic computer collector's index Message-ID: <970612195623_945580917@emout02.mail.aol.com> somebody, i dont remember, put forth: >Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop >> a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are >> when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. >> Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to >> pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want >> it. feel free to add me to the list. i'd be glad to go out and discover new finds and give the opportunity for others to get it before the scrapyard does. i've a truck and a 3 bedroom house, so storage is no problem! =D david From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jun 12 22:21:59 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: REAL plug&play hardware References: <9706122216.AA28309@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33A0BCD7.6584@unix.aardvarkol.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > I remember showing an undergraduate how it was possible to plug > a modem into a terminal and dial up to a shell account. He was > so amazed that the world had been easily fooled into thinking that you > need a computer to access the Internet :-) Tim, How true. One of my first experiences with a modem was messing with a non-Hayes compatible Racal-Vadic with a simple terminal, though I forget just which terminal it was emulating. Now I occasionally do the opposite of what you refer to above and hook my Atari ST up to my Amiga 3000 as a VT-100 terminal for shell processes! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 12 19:27:46 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: MSX comments.... (Re:) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > And, finally, this project (the MSX) did NOT fail miserably. In the United > States, teh MSX did fail miserably... but mainly because of the fact that > it was not widely marketed here. The MSX was VERY popular in Asia and, I > believe, in Europe. To tell you the truth it still is! I happen to be a > fan of the MSX, and can to you the quality of the many, many, game titles > for it are quite similar to that of first Nintendo Entertainment System. > Many of the games were sold on both platforms.... such as Metal Gear, > Donkey Kong, Dig-Dug, F-16 Fighting Falcon, Frogger, Galaga, The Goonies, > Zelda, Thexder, Zaxxon, etc., etc. A large manufacturer of game software > for the MSX was Konami, and world-wide leading game manufacturer. So, that > should let you know about some fo the MSX capabilities. WoW! The more I hear about this thing the more I want one. It's amazing that this system was so unknown in the states. It's like discovering a whole new species. Of course, I'd never heard of the Oric either until I started doing more research into older computers. I wonder if anything will come out of the old eastern bloc countries. I hear they did quite a bit of cloning of western technology. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 12 20:06:30 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: looking for info on tape drive Message-ID: <199706130106.AA22682@world.std.com> slightly off but information needed. Cipher model st150s-II 6150? cartridge tape drive scsi interface. I need data on this jumpers commands anything. Allison From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Thu Jun 12 20:11:07 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: looking for info on tape drive In-Reply-To: <199706130106.AA22682@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > Cipher model st150s-II 6150? cartridge tape drive scsi interface. I actually repaired six or seven of these drives for resale a couple of years ago. I should still have my notes around somewhere. I can give a look when I get off work tonight and email you back with what I dig up. ok -r From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 12 20:40:27 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970612184749.096f3fbe@mail.crl.com> At 03:20 PM 6/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >A printer is a printer, but since nobody really looks upon these as >collectible, they are the most likely to be overlooked or sent to the >scrap heap. A big problem is that they often weigh a lot and are a >burden to store. Nonetheless, I have recently started to collect the old The Computer History Association of California has printers in its collection, and (I think) is as interested in saving printers as anything else. P.S., I'll put in a plug for the CHAC here... Good org, great mag, everyone should join/subscribe. For more info, see . (I am, btw, on the board of directors, but mostly I'm just handy for getting the container doors closed. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 12 20:40:54 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: AuctionWeb (was: Free (maybe): Tandy 10 MB Drive Case) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970612184816.422fec16@mail.crl.com> btw, there's also an interesting sounding doohickey up for bid: '84 Portable Personal Computer Sord IS-11C (item #xjw18405) Ends sunday the 15th, and there are 7 available. Anyone know anything about it? You can get to it at . Min bid is $25, though. AuctionWeb is a good place to find interesting things sometimes, especially early PC and just-before-pc stuff. (And I hate to tell people because that means more bidders which means higher bids...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 12 20:41:03 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Filling in the holes... Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970612184825.422fe444@mail.crl.com> At 01:32 AM 6/12/97 -0400, you wrote: >- I'd like a MSX machine as well (never even seen one in anything other >than magazine articles) I *sorta* have an MSX machine. It was donated to ABACUS, the Atari Bay Area Computer Users Society, but isn't of much interest to the club. So it sits in my garage (or attic?). One of these days, I'll get around to making a suitable cash donation to the club and move it in with my collection. In the meantime, if anyone wants any info or anything, let me know and I'll dig it up... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 12 20:41:26 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970612184848.422724b8@mail.crl.com> At 08:48 AM 6/12/97 -0700, you wrote: >Can't help with compatibility although the pinout for the Atari Joystick >is: > >Pin 1 - Forward >Pin 2 - Back >Pin 3 - Left >Pin 4 - Right >Pin 5 - No Connection >Pin 6 - Trigger >Pin 7 - No Connection >Pin 8 - Ground >Pin 9 - No Connection Because the Atari (same as commodore and others) joysticks are digital (on/off for each direction; done with simple switches) instead of analog (varying amount of each direction; done with potentiometers) like most PC joysticks, it is rather easy to build alternative input devices, whether it's something to stand on, or a bunch of buttons, or whatever. I think the other pins (5, 7, 9) were used for the paddles (which were analog devices.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu Jun 12 20:51:13 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: AuctionWeb (was: Free (maybe): Tandy 10 MB Drive Case) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970612184816.422fec16@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: For any interested - straight from the big list: IS-11C Z80A 80K ?? MICRO 87 Bill On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > btw, there's also an interesting sounding doohickey up for bid: > > '84 Portable Personal Computer Sord IS-11C (item #xjw18405) > > Ends sunday the 15th, and there are 7 available. Anyone know anything about > it? > > You can get to it at . > Min bid is $25, though. > > AuctionWeb is a good place to find interesting things sometimes, especially > early PC and just-before-pc stuff. (And I hate to tell people because that > means more bidders which means higher bids...) > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jun 12 19:52:29 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: MSX comments.... (Re:) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2052A76A6@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | WoW! The more I hear about this thing the more I want one. It's amazing | that this system was so unknown in the states. It's like discovering a | whole new species. Yep, I was obviously thrilled when I ran into my Spectravideo 328 in its original box, for $5 at a local thrift... Sorry Sam, didn't mean to gloat there. Did I mention it was accompanied by the cassette drive in its original box too? Kai From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jun 12 20:58:11 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: looking for info on tape drive Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2052A76D5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> That's a Cipher ST150. It's a old, generic (apart from being early SCSI) 150MB 1/4" SCSI tape drive. It's still supported by most backup software. Kai > ---------- > From: allisonp@world.std.com[SMTP:allisonp@world.std.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 1997 6:06 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: looking for info on tape drive > > slightly off but information needed. > > Cipher model st150s-II 6150? cartridge tape drive scsi interface. > > I need data on this jumpers commands anything. > > Allison > From BigLouS at aol.com Thu Jun 12 21:07:03 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: 5 1/2" Drives Message-ID: <970612220549_254532186@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-11 02:45:42 EDT, you write: > Do any of you collectors > have a use for them or need them to complete a given machine? I certainly could use three or four. A lot of the older machines including the Kaypro 2's and IBM PC's and XT's came equipped with Tandon drives which were poorly made. As a result I have two or three machines sitting around that need 5 1/4" full height drive transplants. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Lou From BigLouS at aol.com Thu Jun 12 21:07:17 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <970612220559_1620309594@emout17.mail.aol.com> > On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > > Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? A topic I've given a lot of thought. The original MX-80 and the Paper Tiger immediately spring to mind as classic printers worthy of incorporating into a museum but I can't think of much else I'd have to own (aside from maybe an original laserjet). Given the space limitations that most of us have collecting printers in the manner that we collect computers is impractical. But if you are inclined to collect them they are certainly plentiful and cheap. Lou From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu Jun 12 21:10:43 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <970612220559_1620309594@emout17.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > A topic I've given a lot of thought. The original MX-80 and the Paper Tiger > immediately spring to mind as classic printers worthy of incorporating into a > museum but I can't think of much else I'd have to own (aside from maybe an > original laserjet). Given the space limitations that most of us have > collecting printers in the manner that we collect computers is impractical. Add to that the Gorilla-Banana - 1 pin printing at it's finest! And probably the dumbest name I've ever seen on a piece of computer equipment. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From chemif at mbox.queen.it Thu Jun 12 20:15:40 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Collectors Index Message-ID: <199706130115.DAA05537@mbox.queen.it> At 14:38 11/06/97 -0500, Issac Davis wrote: >I can see that we are going to inundate this list with our home locations. >I will go ahead and volunteer to keep the list, and put it up on my web >site. If you want to be added to this list, email me idavis@comland.com >with your name, city/area, and a way to contact you - email or phone. After >the list is compiled, I will put it on the web, and will be able to email it >to anyone involved. >Feel free to give me any contact information you want. I will only include what you tell me to. >Isaac Davis >idavis@comland.com >indavis@juno.com Hi, Isaac, really a very good idea. So here I am: NAME:Riccardo Romagnoli CITY/AREA:Forli'(FO)/Emilia Romagna/Italy WAY TO CONTACT ME:chemif@mbox.queen.it Fax:+39-(0)543-402190 Telex:551132 CHEMIF I (yes, the old 50 BAUD stuff!) RANGE:Emilia-Romagna region (Ev. North side of the "boot") MAIN AREA OF INTEREST:Mini's from 70's (esp. Texas DS990/x family);Micro;Olivetti;all kind teletypes machines from any age;Printers. I will be glad to exchange any information and documents I have (or search if needed) about classics coming from Italy. CIAO! ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL. NUMBER* where*=asterisk key | for help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html TELEX:551132 CHEMIF I ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 12 21:02:46 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: AuctionWeb (was: Free (maybe): Tandy 10 MB Drive Case) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970612184816.422fec16@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > AuctionWeb is a good place to find interesting things sometimes, especially > early PC and just-before-pc stuff. (And I hate to tell people because that > means more bidders which means higher bids...) Exactly, and a lot of times you'll get idiots who think they've landed a gold mine and will bid something up to such ridiculous levels it's not even worth it. I tend not to bid on anything from AW because I know I'll just find the same thing at a flea market a couple weeks later for a fraction of the price. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 21:21:47 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions References: <1.5.4.16.19970612184848.422724b8@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: <33A0AEBB.1718@rain.org> Uncle Roger wrote: > > > Because the Atari (same as commodore and others) joysticks are digital > (on/off for each direction; done with simple switches) instead of analog > (varying amount of each direction; done with potentiometers) like most PC > joysticks, it is rather easy to build alternative input devices, whether > it's something to stand on, or a bunch of buttons, or whatever. > > I think the other pins (5, 7, 9) were used for the paddles (which were > analog devices.) > Back when the Atari 400 was introduced, I got hooked on Space Invaders. I found the Atari and other Joysticks to be a complete waste when it came to playing Space Invaders since the these joysticks were 8-position and it was too easy to move the stick to a diagonal position and get killed on the game. I considered what a 10 pound sledge hammer might do to that 8 ounce stick, really liked the thought, but decided a more rational approach was needed :). At that time, a well built 4-position commercial quality joystick became available at only about $18 or so, so I built a dozen units or so and they were sold through a computer store a friend of mine owned at (I think) about $45 each. Ah yes, nothing like the "good old days"! From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 21:29:03 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: 5 1/2" Drives References: <970612220549_254532186@emout04.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33A0B06F.5286@rain.org> BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > > I certainly could use three or four. A lot of the older machines including > the Kaypro 2's and IBM PC's and XT's came equipped with Tandon drives which > were poorly made. As a result I have two or three machines sitting around > that need 5 1/4" full height drive transplants. Any help would be greatly > appreciated. > Okay, I tend to do things the easy way and will just give them to a Mailboxes, Etc. and let them pack and send the things. I'll find out what it costs and let you know. From garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu Thu Jun 12 17:28:00 1997 From: garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu (Gary S. Katz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue List In-Reply-To: <339FA224.71EA@rain.org> Message-ID: <199706130228.WAA10447@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu> OK, here's my $.02 -- Sign me up for these geographic regions: 1) Northwestern Baltimore (Owings Mills) 2) Western Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh/Latrobe) 3) Central NJ (East Brunswick) I'm currently living in #1, storing most of my TRS-80 / Commodore collection in #3 (parents), and visit #2 (in-laws) at least once a month. I'll also seek out Atari 8-bits (I have a 400 in working condition). I'm particularly interested in the Radio Shack Line (have 4 Mod 1's and am working on a vintage Mod 3). I also have a 102, PC-3 and PC-4. HOWEVER, like other posters to this list, I have a wife that "simply doesn't understand the value of old computers" and am currently living in a townhouse with two young sons (read: ZERO storage space). As such, I don't think I can comfortably call myself the first line of defense in most salvage and rescue cases. Glad to see this project come to life in such short order! -Gary Katz > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:15:48 -0700 > From: Marvin > Subject: Re: Classic Computer Rescue List > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Isaac Davis wrote: > > > > Ok, I have taken the info I got from today, and put it up on the web. > > Nothing fancy, and I haven't indexed it yet with any search engines. Take a > > look at it and let me know what you think, or if you want to change your > > information. The url is: > > > > http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html > > > > Hi Isaac, I just took a look at the page and it looks good! I think > this type of page is a first on the Internet and I suspect it will > provide a lot of leads quickly once people start to hear about it. > > As far as my info, could you add that my main area of interest is > microcomputers from the 70's with the associated documentation? Thanks! > ***************************************************** Gary S. Katz 626C OEH University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA 15213 (412) 624-9347 voice (412) 624-5407 fax ***************************************************** From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 21:40:31 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Printers References: <970612220559_1620309594@emout17.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33A0B31F.5E2E@rain.org> BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > > > On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > > > > Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? > > A topic I've given a lot of thought. The original MX-80 and the Paper Tiger > immediately spring to mind as classic printers worthy of incorporating into a > museum but I can't think of much else I'd have to own (aside from maybe an > original laserjet). Given the space limitations that most of us have > collecting printers in the manner that we collect computers is impractical. > > But if you are inclined to collect them they are certainly plentiful and > cheap. > Actually, I am not inclined to collect them since they take up a LOT of room and most are fairly heavy. The count of printers here is unknown but probably a couple of dozen. The ones I do have are either ones that *I* consider an important part of computer history or that go with a system, i.e. the Tandy and CBM printers. Some are becoming a bit more scarce, and if someone is collecting printers and is looking for specific printers, they can let us know and we can keep our eyes open. From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 21:44:20 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: PS/2 Computers References: <970612220559_1620309594@emout17.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33A0B404.7314@rain.org> If anyone is interested in PS/2 computers, let me know. The Santa Barbara Amateur Radio Club has a bunch of them and I just found out they may be going to the scrap yard this Saturday or Sunday. SBARC has a yearly electronic "junk" sale and they have been collecting stuff for that event. They also have ATs and XTs but I don't know quite what is there. I'll be talking to the guy in charge shortly and will find out if they have other computers that people on this list might be interested in. I think though, that most will be relatively early (and valueless now) MS-DOS machines. From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 21:47:07 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Printers References: <1.5.4.16.19970612184749.096f3fbe@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: <33A0B4AB.77B8@rain.org> Uncle Roger wrote: > > P.S., I'll put in a plug for the CHAC here... Good org, great mag, everyone > should join/subscribe. For more info, see . (I am, > btw, on the board of directors, but mostly I'm just handy for getting the > container doors closed. 8^) > I noticed their web page and it looks like a pretty good collection! One thing I didn't see there was information about how it got started, who was involved, what kind of a group it is, etc. Can you help out and fill in the blanks? Thanks! From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jun 12 22:36:36 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: REAL plug&play hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Whoa! Talk about plug-n-play! Jeff > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:09:34 -0700 (PDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Sam Ismail > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: REAL plug&play hardware > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > same general I/O ports as the Atari disk drives and such. You turn on the > > modem first, then the Atari 8bit, and the 8bit actually boots into a program > > called 'Modemlink', which is stored in ROM on the modem. No disks, cartridges > > or anything...just the computer and the modem! Modemlink is pretty basic, but > > What a sweet paradigm. > > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jun 12 22:28:48 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970612212013.00905720@mail.comland.com > Message-ID: Y' know, I seems to me that some of these 'sparky' dot matrix printers used aluminized "thermal" paper. I used to have a stack of old machine runs on such paper, and I remember certain cheesy cash-registers using the same kind of paper tape (about 1981 or so . . .). jeff > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 16:20:13 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Isaac Davis > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Printers > Here's one for the printer books. I had a printer for my atari 800 that we > order out of the DAK catalog. It used a little cartridge shaped like a > bullet with a contact on the end. The printer would fire a spark and > actually burn the dots onto the paper to make the characters. It was > relatively slow, but considering it had to make about 9 passes to form a row > of characters it did pretty well. I can still remember the burning smell > everytime you would print something out. It was really a neat little > printer, and I can't for the life of me figure out why we got rid of it. I > still have the driver disk for it, but the actual name of the thing escapes > me right now. Wait a minute, it was an Olivetti, but I can't remember the > model. The coolest part was turning the lights off when it was printing and > watching the sparks fly across the paper as it printed. That's a printer I > would like to have again. > > Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, > idavis@comland.com | check out the Classic Computer Rescue List - > indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html > > From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jun 12 22:34:52 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: REAL plug&play hardware In-Reply-To: <33A0BCD7.6584@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: 'Aw shoot, the kind of modems we had in the old days were truly user-friendly. I had a Prentice 212 (1200 baud, whoa!), and it would come up with a dialing directory! Just one keystroke to select an entry, and awaaaaaay we go! Of course, it also had commands to dial any number, if it wasn't in memory . . . Jeff P.S. - I think I still have this thing . . . > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 20:21:59 -0700 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Jeff Hellige > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: REAL plug&play hardware > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > I remember showing an undergraduate how it was possible to plug > > a modem into a terminal and dial up to a shell account. He was > > so amazed that the world had been easily fooled into thinking that you > > need a computer to access the Internet :-) > > Tim, > > How true. One of my first experiences with a modem was messing with a > non-Hayes compatible Racal-Vadic with a simple terminal, though I forget > just which terminal it was emulating. Now I occasionally do the > opposite of what you refer to above and hook my Atari ST up to my Amiga > 3000 as a VT-100 terminal for shell processes! > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, > 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, > VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, > Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 > Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong > and Atari 2600VCS game consoles > From BigLouS at aol.com Thu Jun 12 22:27:14 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) Message-ID: <970612220605_-894178726@emout11.mail.aol.com> > At 09:24 AM 6/11/97 -0700, Sam wrote: > >On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, James Willing wrote: > > > >> Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to > develop > >> a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are > >> when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. > >> Or am I just dreaming out loud? > > > >Not at all. This is a terrific idea! I nominate Bill Whitson to > >formulate this list :) I think that we should take this a little more seriously. I propose that we form regional SWAT teams. In the event of a classic computer crisis the nearest SWAT team would be dispatched. Ideally each team would be comprised of individuals who each had a separate area of expertise, i.e. Apple II, Coco, TI, etc. Rescued computers could then be placed in foster homes until caring, loving permanent homes could be found. :-) Lou From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 23:14:01 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Zilog PDS 8000 Develpment System, References: <1.5.4.16.19970612184749.096f3fbe@mail.crl.com> <33A0B4AB.77B8@rain.org> Message-ID: <33A0C909.6C0A@rain.org> In my continuing efforts to catalog what I have, I ran across the Zilog PDS 8000 Model 15 Development System. It has dual 8" drives, is heavy :), and looks to be pretty well built. In checking the manuals I have against our "Big List", these Hardware Reference is copyright July 1979 while the dates in the list are 1983/1984. I see the model 11 listed but not the model 15 and the numbering scheme leads me to believe the Model 11 preceeded the Model 15. If so, the dates for the two machines seem to be conflicting. Does anyone have any more info? One other thing, the Hardware Reference title is "Z8000 Develpment Module, Hardware Reference Manual" rather than "Z8000 Development System" and I am *assuming* they are the same. The other manuals (Monitor listing, Linker, and Assembler) are dated from July 1979 through October 1980. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 12 23:22:27 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue List Message-ID: <199706130422.AA15682@world.std.com> > HOWEVER, like other posters to this list, I have a wife that "simply > doesn't understand the value of old computers" and am currently Ha! I am the wife! I control the... Well I don't have that problem other than a KI10 would be out of the question unless "just passing through". ;-) Allison From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 12 23:45:11 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: TI99 In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051DBF66@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051DBF66@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33a9cf9b.13825226@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:01:27 -0700, you said: >True, that's bizarre... they appear to be especially common in the >northwest. But just try to find a PEB! The closer you get to Texas, the more abundant TI-99 stuff gets. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz Fri Jun 13 00:04:15 1997 From: K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz (Keith Whitehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: MSX comments.... (Re:) Message-ID: <199706130504.WAA03907@mx3.u.washington.edu> > | WoW! The more I hear about this thing the more I want one. >It's amazing > | that this system was so unknown in the states. It's like >discovering a > | whole new species. > >Yep, I was obviously thrilled when I ran into my Spectravideo 328 in its >original box, for $5 at a local thrift... > >Sorry Sam, didn't mean to gloat there. > >Did I mention it was accompanied by the cassette drive in its original >box too? > >Kai Me too...well not in original boxes but I do have one with monitor (TV+modulator?) disk drives, cassette deck,software,CPM 3 (?) etc that I got for eqiv US$12. The only thing is that it intermittantly resets itsself and I have not had a chance to look at ti since I got the thing, I also got a set of boards from a cromenco s100 system for nothing :-) 2 TRS80 model 3s (which I can hopefully get 1 working) $0 1 TRS80 model 4P (Repaired phase locked loop circuit in video) $0 1 Sinclair Z88 with MacLink ROM installed $4 1 Sinclair ZX 81 not going $0 2 Sinclair QL's with 1 mono monitor $0 1 Apple ][e with drives and UHF TV/Monitor $9 1 Kaypro 4 a couple of years back for $30 1 Kaypro 10 (fitted new HD ) for $0 1 ALTOS 8088 Unix based system supposedly in working condition (yet to try) $20 1 IBM PC $0 1 IBM XT $0 1 VT100 terminal $0 and soon to arrive is 2 TRS80 model 1 1 TRS80 model 3 1 TRS80 model 4D 1 Dicksmith Systems 80 1 Amstrad 464 1 Amstrad PCW8256 and I'm on the scent of Apple Lisa Amstrad PC Clone Amstrad monitor (suits the 464/664/6128) Commodore 64 Commodore PET Atari 800 Sinclair spectrum Sinclair ZX80 (kit set..maybe unbuilt !) PDP 11 (model unknown) Microvax (dead PSU) However I would like to acquire Jupiter Ace (forth based machine) Commodore SX64 Any Bondwell CPM machines Cheers and good hunting +----------- Keith Whitehead -----------+ | Physics and Chemistry Depts | | Massey University | | Palmerston North | | New Zealand | | | | Ph +64 6 350-5074 Fax +64 6 354-0207 | +------------------------------------------+ From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 13 00:10:08 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: IBM Transporter References: Message-ID: <33A0D630.19BB@rain.org> In looking at Bill's collection on the Web, I noticed a reference to the IBM Transporter. I found a card that had those words on it and am curious what this thing is, what it does, is software required, etc. Thanks. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 13 00:09:09 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Rescue list -> was PDP 11/34... In-Reply-To: <970612220605_-894178726@emout11.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970612220909.00fb9f78@agora.rdrop.com> At 11:27 PM 6/12/97 -0400, you wrote: >> At 09:24 AM 6/11/97 -0700, Sam wrote: >> >On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, James Willing wrote: >> > >> >> Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to >> develop >> >> a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are >> >> when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. > >> >> Or am I just dreaming out loud? > >I think that we should take this a little more seriously. I propose that we >form regional SWAT teams. In the event of a classic computer crisis the >nearest SWAT team would be dispatched. Ideally each team would be comprised >of individuals who each had a separate area of expertise, i.e. Apple II, >Coco, TI, etc. Rescued computers could then be placed in foster homes until >caring, loving permanent homes could be found. :-) Lets just not start setting limits on it tho... While there is value in having people involved who are familiar with the equipment, keep in mind that a basic understanding of the gear and some common sense goes a long way. I would hate to see an older system (like minis) fall by the wayside because someone thought they were not 'qualified' to recover/move/disassemble it! -jim ("I've created a 'Finster'") --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 13 00:20:53 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205215BE4@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205215BE4@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33aad820.16006298@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Tue, 10 Jun 1997 14:56:49 -0700, you said: >The 99/4A DIN video pinout is (format in monospace for best >readability): > >3 1 > 5 4 > 2 > >where (and no, I didn't write these descriptions, they're pretty >bizarre. I typed them verbatim; if anyone can shed some light on these, >let us know): > >1. "12v vid" >2. R-Y (colorburst clock) >3. Audio out >4. Y >5. B-Y (ext video input?) >U. Ground That's the PAL (non-U.S. NTSC) version, I believe. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From scott at walde.cprompt.sk.ca Fri Jun 13 01:00:42 1997 From: scott at walde.cprompt.sk.ca (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 13 Jun 1997 05:20:53 GMT." <33aad820.16006298@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199706130600.AAA23305@walde.cprompt.sk.ca> > if anyone can shed some light on these, let us know): > > 1. "12v vid" > 2. R-Y (colorburst clock) Red - (minus) Yellow > >3. Audio out > >4. Y Yellow > >5. B-Y (ext video input?) Blue - yellow > >U. Ground Just a different way to send an 'RGB' signal. I'm not sure what the merit is of sending it this way... any video techs out there? I'll cc this to one who might know. ttfn srw From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Fri Jun 13 01:08:03 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) In-Reply-To: <970612220605_-894178726@emout11.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > I think that we should take this a little more seriously. I propose that we > form regional SWAT teams. In the event of a classic computer crisis the > nearest SWAT team would be dispatched. Ideally each team would be comprised > of individuals who each had a separate area of expertise, i.e. Apple II, > Coco, TI, etc. Rescued computers could then be placed in foster homes until > caring, loving permanent homes could be found. :-) > > Lou > And if we caught anybody throwing anything out we'd jump out of the back of the van and beat them senseless (and then pick their stuff out of the trash) LeS From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Fri Jun 13 01:18:52 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: MSX comments.... (Re:) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > Actually, to make a few clarifications, as far as I know, on the above > questions and answers. MSX does NOT stand for Microsoft Extended. That > basically was a bad rumor. The MSX was an attempt and a world-wide > standardization of computers by several companies. I'm not quite sure if > MSX-DOS was format compatible with MS-DOS.... I don't think it was. > Well all my info (right or not) came from an '84 issue of Compute. > And, finally, this project (the MSX) did NOT fail miserably. In the United > States, teh MSX did fail miserably... but mainly because of the fact that > it was not widely marketed here. The MSX was VERY popular in Asia and, I > believe, in Europe. To tell you the truth it still is! I happen to be a > fan of the MSX, and can to you the quality of the many, many, game titles > for it are quite similar to that of first Nintendo Entertainment System. Well I didn't say that it sucked or anything... I just said that it failed miserably... > Many of the games were sold on both platforms.... such as Metal Gear, > Donkey Kong, Dig-Dug, F-16 Fighting Falcon, Frogger, Galaga, The Goonies, > Zelda, Thexder, Zaxxon, etc., etc. A large manufacturer of game software > for the MSX was Konami, and world-wide leading game manufacturer. So, that > should let you know about some fo the MSX capabilities. Well I personally have never been a fan of "Computer Standardization." Sure, now we can all shop at the same stores (except for the Mac/Amiga diehards) and don't really have to port crap anymore, but if you ask me, it takes all the fun out of it. How fun would it be if we all drove the same car? (Well mine has air conditioning! Well mines got air and leather etc. etc.) Boy it's late... Les From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Fri Jun 13 01:20:02 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Filling in the holes... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Cool! I want one of these. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass GET IN LINE! ME FIRST!!!!! Sheesh.... see if I ever open MY big mouth again... ;) Les From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Fri Jun 13 02:34:32 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: Filling in the holes... References: <1.5.4.16.19970612184825.422fe444@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: <33A0F808.FF5@ndirect.co.uk> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 01:32 AM 6/12/97 -0400, you wrote: > >- I'd like a MSX machine as well (never even seen one in anything other > >than magazine articles) > > I *sorta* have an MSX machine. It was donated to ABACUS, the Atari Bay Area > Computer Users Society, but isn't of much interest to the club. So it sits > in my garage (or attic?). One of these days, I'll get around to making a > suitable cash donation to the club and move it in with my collection. > > In the meantime, if anyone wants any info or anything, let me know and I'll > dig it up... > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ I ahve MANY MSX machine for sale (probably one for each manufacturer) but I'd rather swap/trade them for something I am looking. I am lookingfor a T/S1500, Original TRS-80, IBM Junior (Peanut). Any taker? Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jun 13 09:15:08 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:51 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <9705138662.AA866218833@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > > if anyone can shed some light on these, let us know): > > > > 1. "12v vid" > > 2. R-Y (colorburst clock) > > Red - (minus) Yellow > > > >3. Audio out > > >4. Y > > Yellow > > > >5. B-Y (ext video input?) > > Blue - yellow > > > >U. Ground > > Just a different way to send an 'RGB' signal. I'm not sure what the merit is > of sending it this way... any video techs out there? I'll cc this to one who > might know. Um... No. Sorry. Close though. Y is not yellow, i'm afraid. These signals derive from the way luminance and chrominance are handled in a telly. Y is intensity (luminance). It is made up of red, green and blue in the rough proportions that generate intensity in a human eye. This is the only part of the signal that a black and white telly (or greyscale monitor) would decode. The other two signals are the quadrature components of chrominance. They are derived from Y by subtracting red and blue, and are normally called U and V (in some order). The colour telly receives U and V phase modulated onto a subcarrier (I think). The hue control on American tellies sets the baseline against which phase is measured here. (In Europe, the PAL system reverses the phase each line, so any hue errors should cancel out) The signals are transmitted this way in broadcast TV to ensure compatibility between colour and BW tellies. They are also the signals that would normally be sent to a TV (UHF or VHF) modulator from the computer, hence their presence on the video connector. Hope this helps! I could be more specific if I had some of my reference books from home... Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bloedem Volke unverstaendlich treiben wir des Lebens Spiel. Grade das, was unabwendlich fruchtet unserm Spott als Ziel. Magst es Kinder-Rache nennen an des Daseins tiefem Ernst; Wirst das Leben besser kennen, wenn du uns verstehen lernst. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 13 05:01:02 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: [re; CoCo Max cartridge] > The cartridge is a high-resolution joystick interface that worked with > (if you had a Multi-pak Interface) the CoCo-Max drawing program. Mine > was stolen ten years ago, but it was a very nice system. Doh! I guess I was thinking with my Amiga-influenced mind when I assumed "hi-res" would be directly graphics related. Were the standard joysticks from Radio Shack not hi-res enough to use for drawing? > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 13 05:10:05 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970609231610.0069daec@post.keme.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, steve wrote: > CPM DISKS Easy Download em from the net, make a 1541 lead to connect the > 1541 to PC its in the DOX on C64s Emulator, Use a util on the PC called > Star Commander and copy stright to a real 1541. Easy!!! If you need more > info Mail ME.. Of course this all assumes that I *have* a PC. However, if the CP/M disks simply contain files and don't use the normal CP/M disk structure, I can transfer the files via the parallel<->user port cable I have. Otherwise I guess I'll have to write a disk image transfer program using the modem like I did with the Apple ][. (I don't know how to do the programming for the parallel cable, and phone cable is pysically much easier to set up as I don't have to move any machines.) I have to get the hardware to work before I worry about disks, though. > Steve > Emulator BBS > 01284 760851 > Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Fri Jun 13 05:34:02 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: looking for info on tape drive In-Reply-To: <199706130106.AA22682@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > Cipher model st150s-II 6150? cartridge tape drive scsi interface. Overland Data (800.424.7437) bought Cipher sometime in the late 80s. Conner (800.526.6637) bought Overland's cartridge tape business shortly thereafter. Now, Conner is no longer extant, and Seagate offers support on their hardware. Jumpers are thus: J5 : : 1 2 1- Self test 2- auto-loading (in = disabled) J4 : : : : : 1 2 3 4 5 1- termination power (in = bus supplies; out = drive supplies) 2- parity (in = enabled) 3- ID 4 4- ID 2 5- ID 1 I think I still have some of the smaller, mechanical parts lying about for spares. ok -r From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 13 05:47:21 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > The ///'s monitor isn't identical to the ]['s monitor. That's why I was > > asking. > > Yeah, you're right. I found this out after finally booting my /// up for > the first time. No wonder the /// flopped. They changed a good thing. > They fixed what wasn't broken. Lame-o's. I felt the same way when the folks at Commodore removed the "debug" menu from Workbench. :) Yeah, the Apple ][ monitor is a very cool and useful thing, and that kind of functionality is something I miss from most other computers. Of course I grew up using a ][. Had I used an Atari 800 instead, I'd probably find most other systems inadequate in some different way. :) > > Do you know what kind of battery it's supposed to take? (And why they put > > it in such an inaccessible place on the motherboard?) > > I haven't torn my /// apart yet. If I find out before you do, I'll let > you in on the secret. I had mine apart again tonight, mainly to look at the power supply. At some point during my numerous flips of the machine upside-down, a paper clip fell out from somewhere. I really hope it was from the keyboard. All I can report is that the PS makes no noise when there's no load on it, apart from the usual high-pitched squealing that many electronic devices make. I didn't look at the place where the battery goes to see if there were any clues. I haven't fully removed the motherboard because I have to disconnect a few cables, and I was mainly inside to pull the power supply out. I noticed that the cable that leads to the external floppy port has been badly crushed between the cast iron frame and the metal sheet that holds the motherboard, though. I'll have to remove it to see if any of the wires have been broken. :/ > > > > Can the /// emulate a ][? > > > > > > Yes it can, but you need the emulation system disk. > > > > Cool! Not that I need another ][, I just think it's good that they > > allowed this kind of functionality. Though I suppose, in a way, they felt > > they had to. > > Let me know if you need the system disks. I can send you some. I do need the system disks. I didn't get them with the machine. I wish there was some way to transfer them electronically, though... which is why I asked if there was a way of getting an Apple ][ to access a ///'s disks. I suppose the ///'s drive is double-sided, though. Send the disks to: Doug Spence 85 Devon Road Baie d'Urfe, Que. CANADA H9X 2X3 (I guess I don't have my config set up right - PINE won't accept my accented characters.) Thanks, and let me know if there's anything I can do in return. > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jun 13 12:05:29 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <9705138662.AA866229096@compsci.powertech.co.uk> In my previous message I wrote (re: meanings of video signals), > The other two signals are the quadrature components of chrominance. > They are derived from Y by subtracting red and blue, and are normally > called U and V (in some order). > > The colour telly receives U and V phase modulated onto a subcarrier (I > think). The hue control on American tellies sets the baseline against > which phase is measured here. (In Europe, the PAL system reverses the > phase each line, so any hue errors should cancel out) Before someone like Tony jumps down my throat, U and V are _amplitude_ modulated onto the subcarrier, in quadrature with one another. Thus the phase of the subcarrier gives the hue, and its amplitude the saturation. I hope you are not any more confused than before :-) Philip. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 13 06:23:38 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts In-Reply-To: <339E3F05.1979@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > NOTE: the Commodore CP/M Cart is only usable on the oldest of the 64s > (usually models with the 5-pin DIN plug for video. It would seem that > when Commodore debugged some video problems they tweaked the system > speed slightly which made the CP/M cartridge unusable. That's annoying. All of my C64s are the 8-pin variety. (I've actually been selecting them that way. :) ) Hopefully the Data 20 cart doesn't suffer the same problem as the Commodore cart. > Are you sure the plug isn't for some sort of video cable contraption? > (the Data-20 carts usually sported an 80 column composite video output.) Well, it does have two 5-pin female connectors on the back, which would be for the video. The other connector looks like the typical power connector for an external modem, but I suppose it could be a composite out for use with a weirdo cable. Time to open it I suppose. > Larry Anderson > -- > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ > Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From bwit at pobox.com Fri Jun 13 05:56:43 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: TI99 Message-ID: <01BC77C7.DDF43E60@ppp-151-164-41-161.rcsntx.swbell.net> >>True, that's bizarre... they appear to be especially common in the >>northwest. But just try to find a PEB! >The closer you get to Texas, the more abundant TI-99 stuff gets. So true! I worked for TI in Dallas at the time of the big selloff. I remember buying several consoles for $25, a PEB for $20, several monitors for $50, and catridges for $.50 each. All brand new in boxes. What a madhouse it was. Bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1476 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970613/5286a732/attachment.bin From classicjr at juno.com Fri Jun 13 10:49:21 1997 From: classicjr at juno.com (Jeffrey G. Rottman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: No New issues being received? References: <199706070702.AAA03643@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19970613.074951.7759.0.classicjr@juno.com> I haven't received any new issues of the Classic Computer mailings since June 7th. Is there anything wrong? This has happened before, maybe it's my mail provider. Should I sign off and re-register as a new member of the list? From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 13 09:12:30 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > Add to that the Gorilla-Banana - 1 pin printing at it's finest! And > probably the dumbest name I've ever seen on a piece of computer > equipment. Ah yes, it bears a remarkable resemblance to my Radio Shack DMP-100. I know that Axion sold them, can't recall the model number. But this old DMP-100 is the most appropriate printer I've got for the 4k non-Extended Color BASIC Color Computer. Wish I had my old MX-80 with the bootleg Graftrax ROM. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From scott at walde.cprompt.sk.ca Fri Jun 13 09:45:48 1997 From: scott at walde.cprompt.sk.ca (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:15:08 -0000." <9705138662.AA866218833@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <199706131445.IAA25125@walde.cprompt.sk.ca> > Um... No. Sorry. Close though. [snip] > The other two signals are the quadrature components of chrominance. > They are derived from Y by subtracting red and blue, and are normally > called U and V (in some order). Aha! YUV is something I recognize now. I believe this is what broadcast professionals call component video. (Let's see if I'll be right one out of two.) > The signals are transmitted this way in broadcast TV to ensure > compatibility between colour and BW tellies. They are also the signals > that would normally be sent to a TV (UHF or VHF) modulator from the > computer, hence their presence on the video connector. Hmmm... any modulator I've ever worked on had a composite input. Is this maybe more common in European systems? > Hope this helps! I could be more specific if I had some of my reference > books from home... Specific enough for me. Thanks. > Philip. ttfn srw From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 13 09:49:04 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970613075315.2a077a1a@RICOCHET.net> At 04:20 PM 6/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >Here's one for the printer books. I had a printer for my atari 800 that we >order out of the DAK catalog. It used a little cartridge shaped like a >bullet with a contact on the end. The printer would fire a spark and >actually burn the dots onto the paper to make the characters. It was Actually, it was an InkJet... I think I still have some of the ink cartridges around somewhere. (I was paranoid that I might not be able to find more when I ran out, so I bought a whole bunch.) The sparks were to convince the ink to jump onto the page, I think. >me right now. Wait a minute, it was an Olivetti, but I can't remember the It was indeed an Olivetti, but I too have forgotten the model. >would like to have again. Me too. I remember demoing mine for ABACUS, the Atari Bay Area Computer Users Society. That thing is what made it possible for me to pass English in college! (I loathe the physical act of writing, so I never did any work, until I could type it up on my 600xl (and later, 800) and print it out.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 13 09:51:21 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > [re; CoCo Max cartridge] > > The cartridge is a high-resolution joystick interface that worked with > > (if you had a Multi-pak Interface) the CoCo-Max drawing program. Mine > > was stolen ten years ago, but it was a very nice system. > > Were the standard joysticks from Radio Shack not hi-res enough to use for > drawing? The same joysticks were used, though the Deluxe type were better -- the CoCo Max interface was realy good "fine tuning", it read and interpreted the position better. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 13 09:49:08 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: REAL plug&play hardware Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970613075319.2a07ce88@RICOCHET.net> At 03:16 PM 6/12/97 -0800, you wrote: >I remember showing an undergraduate how it was possible to plug >a modem into a terminal and dial up to a shell account. He was >so amazed that the world had been easily fooled into thinking that you >need a computer to access the Internet :-) The San Francisco Public Library has terminals (DEC VT220's?) in every library. My girlfriend was impressed when I used Lynx to telnet to my account to check mail one day... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From kyrrin at wizards.net Fri Jun 13 09:49:01 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: FREE to good home! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970613074901.00f75990@mail.wizards.net> Well, darn it, I tried, but I just can't get the silly thing to work! Ok... first volunteer who feels like visiting Kent, WA (yes, Bill, that's a big hint, especially since I CC'd you on this... ) can have this beast. It's an STC/StorageTek 9-track tape drive, model 2921. When working, it can do 1600 and 6250 (GCR), sits in a standard 19" rack, has a Pertec interface, and weighs about 100 lbs. or so. Notice I say 'when working.' I tried to get it to going, but it seems to have a sick CPU card. I kind of hate to get rid of it, but I need the space more than I do the drive and a new CPU card was quoted as being around $800 (yikes! My skylight blinds are going to cost that much!) Come to think of it, if anyone's got a working dual-density drive that they feel like getting rid of, I would love to know about it. ;-) Thanks in advance. E-mail or call me at (253) 639-9555 for details. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 13 10:02:43 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > Y' know, I seems to me that some of these 'sparky' dot matrix > printers used aluminized "thermal" paper. I used to have a stack of > old machine runs on such paper, and I remember certain cheesy > cash-registers using the same kind of paper tape (about 1981 or so . Yeah, that was the mechanism on the TRS-80 Quick Printer and Quick Printer 2 and the Screen Printer. When I had the Quick Printer 2, I always turned off the lights when I LLISTed. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jun 13 16:03:05 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <9705138662.AA866243312@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > Aha! YUV is something I recognize now. I believe this is what broadcast > professionals call component video. (Let's see if I'll be right one out of > two.) > > > The signals are transmitted this way in broadcast TV to ensure > > compatibility between colour and BW tellies. They are also the signals > > that would normally be sent to a TV (UHF or VHF) modulator from the > > computer, hence their presence on the video connector. > > Hmmm... any modulator I've ever worked on had a composite input. Is this > maybe more common in European systems? Hmm. I'm getting out of my depth at this point. I've not dealt in detail with many colour modulators but I recall the Sinclair Spectrum had YUV as opposed to RGB on its expansion port. The computer obviously uses RGB internally (although I don't see why one couldn't design a machine to do YUV instead!) and it has to be converted to YUV at some stage in the modulation process. My guess (no evidence to back this up) is that the more expensive modulators - the ones one is likely to be able to buy for one's own projects - accept composite, but many mass-producing manufacturers got away with a cheaper modulator by putting the conversion in the (custom) chip in the video circuitry. Philip. From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Fri Jun 13 10:04:07 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706131504.KAA29375@fudge.uchicago.edu> Doug Spence said, > I do need the system disks. I didn't get them with the machine. I wish > there was some way to transfer them electronically, though... which is why > I asked if there was a way of getting an Apple ][ to access a ///'s disks. > I suppose the ///'s drive is double-sided, though. Actually, no, the ][ and /// disks are the same 140k format. In fact, the SOS file system on the /// is the same as was later adopted for ProDOS on the ][ series. eric From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 13 10:40:52 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > > > I think that we should take this a little more seriously. I propose that we > > form regional SWAT teams. > > And if we caught anybody throwing anything out we'd jump out of the back > of the van and beat them senseless (and then pick their stuff out of the > trash) Actually, just call in the 'Narn Bat Squad' to deal with them while we clear the gear. < B5 B^} > -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From zmerch at northernway.net Fri Jun 13 11:28:33 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Listservers... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970613122833.009dd610@mail.northernway.net> Bill: You have a great listserver here, and I'm glad I've subscribed. I'm going to assume (and yes, I know the consequences ) that advertising a special-interest listserve is o.k. provided it's within the realm of this list. Well, they are. I have started two listservers, one of which used to be *very* popular in it's heyday (which, unforch, has passed it seems) and the other solely because there wasn't one. The first is a replacement for Andrew Diller's Model 100/102/200 listserve, and one can subscribe by going to the web page at: http://home.northernway.net/~zmerch/signupform.html or sending an e-mail to m100-request@list.northernway.net with "subscribe" (no quotes) in the _Subject:_ of the message. To send messages to the list, e-mail m100@list.northernway.net. The second is my own creation, because there was no Tandy Model 600 listserver. It can be accessed thru it's web page at: http://home.northernway.net/~zmerch/signupm600.html or sending an e-mail to m600-request@list.northernway.net with "subscribe" (no quotes) in the _Subject:_ of the message. To send messages to the list, e-mail m600@list.northernway.net. I don't have to mention to anyone just how wonderful these lists can be for information... If you're interested in these machines, come on in and join the fun! Thanks for the bandwidth, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 13 11:29:29 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > I noticed that the cable that leads to the external floppy port has been > badly crushed between the cast iron frame and the metal sheet that holds > the motherboard, though. I'll have to remove it to see if any of the > wires have been broken. :/ My internal floppy seems to be hosed. I can't boot any disks off of it. Some bgin to boot but then go to error, others invoke this horrendous recalibration that never ends. I assume the drive head is dirty and the speed needs calibrating. I wonder if I can calibrate this drive like one can the Disk ][? > I do need the system disks. I didn't get them with the machine. I wish > there was some way to transfer them electronically, though... which is why > I asked if there was a way of getting an Apple ][ to access a ///'s disks. > I suppose the ///'s drive is double-sided, though. Doug, if you want I can e-mail NuFX (ShrinkIt) images to you. This would be the quickest way for you to get them. You'd need an Apple // running shrinkit of course. The disk format between the // and /// is identical. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jun 13 11:54:09 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: IBM Transporter Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2052B7281@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> You can find the info on http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ :) Kai > ---------- > From: Marvin[SMTP:marvin@rain.org] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 1997 10:10 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: IBM Transporter > > In looking at Bill's collection on the Web, I noticed a reference to > the > IBM Transporter. I found a card that had those words on it and am > curious what this thing is, what it does, is software required, etc. > Thanks. > From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jun 13 11:55:29 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2052B7285@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | And if we caught anybody throwing anything out we'd jump out of the back | of the van and beat them senseless (and then pick their stuff out of the | trash) | LeS No need for violence... we'll just go to their house and throw out their Pentium :) Kai From zmerch at northernway.net Fri Jun 13 12:05:55 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2052B7285@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970613130555.00a3de60@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Kai Kaltenbach said: > | And if we caught anybody throwing anything out we'd jump out >of the back > | of the van and beat them senseless (and then pick their stuff >out of the > | trash) > | LeS > >No need for violence... we'll just go to their house and throw out their >Pentium :) >Kai No... you've got that wrong... we'll go to their house and *steal* their Pentium, so that we can sell it on the black market for money to buy more classic computers with!!!! ;^> "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Fri Jun 13 12:29:39 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > Wish I had my old MX-80 with the bootleg Graftrax ROM. I'm just curious, but what's special about the MX-80? I had one for a very long time myself (come to think of it, I don't actually remember what happened to it...) that I believe was a 'Graftrax Plus', but I don't have any idea what that was all about. It was my father's, he bought it for his TRS-80. Somehow, I ended up with an MX-100 (the wide-carriage version) that I bet is still lying about at my parents' place, and you all have piqued my interest. ok -r From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 13 13:28:40 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Stricklin wrote: > On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > > Wish I had my old MX-80 with the bootleg Graftrax ROM. > I'm just curious, but what's special about the MX-80? > > I had one for a very long time myself (come to think of it, I don't > actually remember what happened to it...) that I believe was a 'Graftrax > Plus', but I don't have any idea what that was all about. It was my > father's, he bought it for his TRS-80. Well, there were a few years where the Epson MX-80 was the standard printer against which all others were compared. This beast of mine was one of the early models, from before bit-image graphics became standard issue -- its base character set included the TRS-80 block graphics characters, actually. My mother-in-law scored a bootleg copy of the Graftrax ROM upgrade from a coworker at Hughes Aircraft. That gave the printer the capability to print bit image graphics as is taken for granted nowadays. It was slow. It was noisy. It used only tractor paper. Its near- letter-quality text wasn't even close. And the bastard ran for year after year. My ex-wife probably still has it. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 13 13:33:36 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Classic Computers to Save? References: <3.0.1.32.19970613074901.00f75990@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: <33A19280.6D4D@rain.org> I just got back from checking out several places here in Sanata Barbara where machines are being sold. First, there are a number of SpectraGraphics DS1080 machines along with some good size terminals, keyboards, etc. I am not familiar with the units but the guy indicated this was a workstation assembly. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll get back to him. I *think* there were about four of the DS1080 machines, at least a couple large monitors (19" or so RGB I think), some keyboards, perhaps some type of digitizing pad (not sure about this), and I didn't see any docs or software with it. He indicated he would be quite happy with $100 for the lot. My guess is that the lot weighs probably about 300 pounds or so. He indicated this was used as a CAD system. Second, there is an NCR PC-8 Xenix machine with some software, monitor, and several keyboards. I might end up trying to get it since I don't have one in the collection but if someone else is interested, let me know. My guess is that the lot weighs in at about 100 pounds or so. While I forgot to ask the price on this, he would most likely be more than happy with $30 - $50 for the lot. Thirdly, he had three or four Apple IIC's along with a bit of documentation, one of the Imagewriters, and perhaps some a little bit of other stuff I missed. Total weight is probably about 50 - 75 pounds, and he would take $20 each or probably $40 - $50 for the lot. Each of the first three Apples had either one or two external floppy disk drives with them. Finally, I went over to a local rummage sale and there was a bunch of Commodore stuff primarily C64s, documentation, some Apple docs, and some printers. This will be over this afternoon about 3PM PST so I will show up about 2:30 to see what I can haul away :). I will most likely just pick it up what is left just to save it from the dumpster but most of what I saw, I already have. Total weight was probably about 100 pounds including documentation. I did pick up the some of the docs and there are duplicate Apple II and IIe manuals. The first three items may or may not be sold this weekend to someone from Los Angeles. However, being here does give me an advantage :), so if anyone is interested in anything here, let me know! From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 13 13:40:46 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Computer History Assn of Calif. Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970613114501.361fcfc2@ricochet.net> At 07:47 PM 6/12/97 -0700, you wrote: >I noticed their web page and it looks like a pretty good collection! >One thing I didn't see there was information about how it got started, >who was involved, what kind of a group it is, etc. Can you help out and >fill in the blanks? Thanks! Okay, let me put in a disclaimer that a) I have a horrible memory and b) I'm not super involved in the day-to-day stuff (I've spent the last 2 years dealing with the passing of my mother and taking care of my father among other disasters -- the best thing in the last two years has been having to have my entire sewer system replaced because of tree roots completely clogging it.) (Oh, and a general disclaimer that I really don't know as much as people seem to think I do.) Anyway, what happened is Kip Crosby realized that much of our history was disappearing as companies tossed their old, non-pc systems in favor of Gateway 2000's et al. I think this came about because he replaced Brenda (his older, multi-user micro (IMS? something like that)) with PC's. Being a realist, however, he decided to concentrate on California computers only (A daunting task in and of itself). I think he hoped to see other orgs covering other areas in the future. I knew Kip from eons ago (early 80's) when we were on a couple of Fido BBS's. He rang me and a couple others up and we got together, tossed around the ideas. He got going on it, and I signed on as Secretary. I must admit, though, that I kinda left most of it in his capable hands. (I trust him to do it right.) The focus (from what I see) right now is research and the Analytical Engine (the magazine). Also, collecting/cataloging classic computers. Right now, the collection (which I'm pretty sure is not fully represented on the web pages) exists in a bunch of containers in San Jose. There are plans for a museum at some point, as well as exhibits. The coup d'grace (is that the right word?) for CHAC was saving the SDS 930 from Colorado. This is a Mainframe built in (IIRC) 1963 here in California. It was then sent to Colorado for NASA? to use, and ended up doing something with Weather. It was in use up to a few years ago, and was going to be scrapped, but Kip worked his tail off to save it and bring it out here where it will become the centerpiece of the assn's displays. Hmmm... Perhaps I should pass this on to Kip himself before I pass on too much misinformation... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Jun 13 14:11:51 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Classic Computers to Save? Message-ID: <199706131909.OAA15546@challenge.sunflower.com> Im still looking for a plain Apple][, and an Apple//e platinum, the one with the numeric keypad on the side, please check if they have any of either of these, as I need them for my collection. ---------- > From: Marvin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Classic Computers to Save? > Date: Friday, June 13, 1997 1:33 PM > > I just got back from checking out several places here in Sanata Barbara > where machines are being sold. > > First, there are a number of SpectraGraphics DS1080 machines along with > some good size terminals, keyboards, etc. I am not familiar with the > units but the guy indicated this was a workstation assembly. If anyone > is interested, let me know and I'll get back to him. I *think* there > were about four of the DS1080 machines, at least a couple large monitors > (19" or so RGB I think), some keyboards, perhaps some type of digitizing > pad (not sure about this), and I didn't see any docs or software with > it. He indicated he would be quite happy with $100 for the lot. My > guess is that the lot weighs probably about 300 pounds or so. He > indicated this was used as a CAD system. > > Second, there is an NCR PC-8 Xenix machine with some software, monitor, > and several keyboards. I might end up trying to get it since I don't > have one in the collection but if someone else is interested, let me > know. My guess is that the lot weighs in at about 100 pounds or so. > While I forgot to ask the price on this, he would most likely be more > than happy with $30 - $50 for the lot. > > Thirdly, he had three or four Apple IIC's along with a bit of > documentation, one of the Imagewriters, and perhaps some a little bit of > other stuff I missed. Total weight is probably about 50 - 75 pounds, > and he would take $20 each or probably $40 - $50 for the lot. Each of > the first three Apples had either one or two external floppy disk drives > with them. > > Finally, I went over to a local rummage sale and there was a bunch of > Commodore stuff primarily C64s, documentation, some Apple docs, and some > printers. This will be over this afternoon about 3PM PST so I will show > up about 2:30 to see what I can haul away :). I will most likely just > pick it up what is left just to save it from the dumpster but most of > what I saw, I already have. Total weight was probably about 100 pounds > including documentation. I did pick up the some of the docs and there > are duplicate Apple II and IIe manuals. > > The first three items may or may not be sold this weekend to someone > from Los Angeles. However, being here does give me an advantage :), so > if anyone is interested in anything here, let me know! From groberts at mitre.org Fri Jun 13 14:38:13 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: A trip back in time in Boston Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970613153813.007d0850@mail90> Opens tomorrow. Should be fun!: "Boston, MA (May 23) - On June 14, 1997, The Computer Museum re-creates the dawn of the PC age through a lifesize reconstruction of a 1970s' hacker's garage and vintage personal computing artifacts. ... The Museum draws on artifacts from its rich collection, including an Apple I and Altair 8800, to recall the garages of 1970s' hobbyists who assembled "homebrew" computers ... Rich in period detail, the "garage" is cluttered with an oscilloscope, a ham radio, an old TV tube, 1970s' issues of Byte magazine, a drum set, a guitar and photos of Mick Jagger and the Beatles. The relics - including two early personal computers and two video games - recall a pivotal time when computers began to serve as consumer items ..." for the full article see: http://www.tcm.org/info/press/wpr-hgarage.html - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From pcoad at crl.com Fri Jun 13 15:44:02 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Kaypro 2 For sale Message-ID: Found this in comp.os.cpm. It is on the wrong side of the country for me. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html Reply-To: Stephen Griswold Sender: CPM-L Mailing List From: Stephen Griswold Organization: Micromint/Circuit Cellar, Inc. Subject: fwd: Kaypro 2 For sale Lines: 28 Xref: nnrp1.crl.com comp.os.cpm:15835 * Originally By: Calvin Krusen (Local BBS) * Originally To: All * Originally Re: Kaypro 2 For sale * Original Area: General Interest While cleaning the basement of the company I work for, I found a Kaypro 2 "portable" PC. Its blue with an integrated 5" green monitor and two 5-1/4" disk drives. On power up, it tries to boot from one of the drives and displays a message on the display to insert system disk. I'm not looking for any money for it, just a good home. It weighs about 27 lbs, so you would have to pick up the shipping from Warrington, PA (just outside Philadelphia). I'll give one week for responses then it goes in the trash. Email me direct at ckrusen@erols.com or call me at my place of work\ 215/343-6600 x122. Calvin Krusen +++++++++++++++++++++++ Director of Engineering MEECO Inc. Warrington, PA 18976 215/343-6600 x122 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-End forward-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 -- end of forwarded message -- From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 13 15:56:15 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: I have a question about the value of an IMSAI 8080. Say someone had a nice, working IMSAI 8080 in decent condition. How much, realistically, could one expect to sell this for? Say someone had an IMSAI 8080, in pieces, the working condition being unknown. How much, realistically, could one expect to sell this for? Now I have a question about a Victor-9000. Victor 9000, working...how much? Victor 9000, bad floppy controller...how much? Thanks! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From chemif at mbox.queen.it Fri Jun 13 16:39:33 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <199706132139.XAA03607@mbox.queen.it> While Isaac Davis wrote: Wait a minute, it was an Olivetti, but I can't remember the >> model. The coolest part was turning the lights off when it was printing and >> watching the sparks fly across the paper as it printed. That's a printer I >> would like to have again. At 21:28 12/06/97 -0600, Jeff wrote: >Y' know, I seems to me that some of these 'sparky' dot matrix >printers used aluminized "thermal" paper. No Jeff, this Olivetti "sparkling" system was different and was not using thermal-conductive (=aluminium) paper (at least the one I know); was a real DRY INK JET. The "bullet-shaped" cartridge was containing the DRY INK (a sort of TONER) and a high-voltage electric field was made between the rubber(but conductive) roll, and the head. In this way the particles of positive electrically charged toner is "aimed" to go against the negative charged roll, but in between there is the paper (common paper), so the electricity pass, but ink stay. >I used to have a stack of >old machine runs on such paper, and I remember certain cheesy >cash-registers using the same kind of paper tape (about 1981 or so . also this DRY system was widely used by Olivetti on desktop financial calculator (I have one working) and cash-registers I think that the system was good for those applications (fast,quite silent,working on common paper instead thermal and..yes,cool in the dark) but the problem was the powder spread all around the printing bay of the machine, so when bubble jet came out... Sorry for my instinctive and not-checked english. Ciao Riccardo ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL. NUMBER* where*=asterisk key | for help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html TELEX:551132 CHEMIF I ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From BigLouS at aol.com Fri Jun 13 11:23:08 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: 5 1/2" Drives Message-ID: <970613122255_-561580065@emout12.mail.aol.com> Thanks. Lou From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Fri Jun 13 22:36:06 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: For Trade/Sale References: Message-ID: <33A211A6.5A94@unix.aardvarkol.com> I have the following for trade/sale if anyone is interested: 1) Atari 800 with non-working IndusGT disk drive. The drive powers up, but gives an error code '113'. The 800 has 48k, includes both the PSU for the 800 and the IndusGT, the Atari Basic cartridge, drive data cable, and a copy of any Atari 8bit DOS' I have. The 800 is an earlier version with the thumb latches on the expansion cover. For an interesting enough trade, I could likely be persuaded to part with one of my two working IndusGT's, original carrying case included. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From danjo at xnet.com Fri Jun 13 18:44:37 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Dan and Joanne Tucker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: (fwd) Old System and Parts For Sale Message-ID: <199706132344.SAA26558@xnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1168 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970613/6b1b7d6f/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 13 21:42:38 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 13, 97 01:56:15 pm Message-ID: <9706140142.AA32447@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1739 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970613/58a79dce/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 13 20:44:26 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970613184845.48371e88@ricochet.net> At 01:56 PM 6/13/97 -0700, you wrote: >Say someone had a nice, working IMSAI 8080 in decent condition. How >much, realistically, could one expect to sell this for? Haddock lists it at 150-225... (Values are for complete systems, with everything that came with it, but not boxes, and not nec. working.) >Victor 9000, working...how much? I paid $100 + tax for mine. Took me a while to find it, too. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 13 21:00:41 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Classic Computers to Save? References: <199706131909.OAA15546@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <33A1FB49.578A@rain.org> Bill Girnius wrote: > > Im still looking for a plain Apple][, and an Apple//e platinum, the one > with the numeric keypad on the side, please check if they have any of > either of these, as I need them for my collection. > I checked and asked around at the school, but no luck. I'll talk to the other guy and see if I missed panything ... like an Apple ][ or the platinum edition:). From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 13 21:17:54 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Apple/Commodore Stuff References: <3.0.1.32.19970613074901.00f75990@mail.wizards.net> <33A19280.6D4D@rain.org> Message-ID: <33A1FF52.1ABD@rain.org> I have started going through the stuff I picked up at the school. As might be expected, there are a couple dozen or so titles of Educational Software, both for the Apple 2e and the C64. Is this something anyone here is interested in? If so, I can post titles. Otherwise, I'll just advertise it locally. I told the school if I can sell it, I'll go ahead and turn the monies back in to them (about a buck a title plus postage.) There are also about six Commodore 64s, some Vic and C-64 Disk Drives, a couple of Vic distribution boxes (for what I don't know,) and some miscellaneous stuff. They also had about a dozen composite sync B&W monitors. There are also some power packs. I might add that I don't know what works and what doesn't at this point although I *think* most came from classrooms and are working. They had one nice thing I am going to keep: a C-64 in the original box which was still in excellent shape! There are also some Apple manuals for probably the 2e and 2c or 2plus. Sorry, I don't recall and am not familiar with this stuff. There was also a multimedia book and disks about how to use one of the Apples. From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 13 21:23:02 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 References: <9706140142.AA32447@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33A20086.480C@rain.org> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > You should realize that you can still buy every part in the IMSAI 8080A > and associated boards and peripherals. You could build your own from > scratch for a few hundred $ (+ your time making the PC boards and > doing the sheet metal work.) I've done this, and it's called > [drum roll...] the TIMSAI. See my past posts on comp.os.cpm for > more details about "the original" and "the improved" (aka "IEEE-696 > compliant") versions. > Does this mean original parts? Also does it include the front plexiglass overlay? When I got my Imsai about 10 years ago (it came with a business I bought), someone had modified the Silkscreening to say "Zenrad Northstar Z80A". It would be nice to have the original front overlay! From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 13 22:26:59 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: A trip back in time in Boston In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970613153813.007d0850@mail90> from "Glenn Roberts" at Jun 13, 97 03:38:13 pm Message-ID: <9706140226.AA10658@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1826 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970613/c5873f9f/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 13 21:28:25 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: IBM PC Cassette Recorder References: <199706131909.OAA15546@challenge.sunflower.com> <33A1FB49.578A@rain.org> Message-ID: <33A201C9.1057@rain.org> I have heard that there actually was an IBM (brand) Cassette recorder for use with the PC. I have been casually looking for one for about 10 years, and so far, haven't met or talked with anyone who has one or has seen one. Anyone here know if they actually exist and if so, have one they would like to trade off? From danjo at xnet.com Fri Jun 13 21:34:04 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix Message-ID: I realize this is a little off-topic (last build was about 1987 or 88) but I have my self in a corner 8-) There are a couple of windows I could crawl thru if I HAD to. I have a pristene TI Xenix 386DX16 system. I have access to one account and - you guessed it - it ain't root! Nobody seems to remember the root password 8-( I can't believe that I can't break into this thing! I don't have the original disks (I haven't dug that far into ALL my docs) but it has a SCSI Tape drive and two 8 port serial adaptors and some *special* TI card. It has 2 140 MB MFM drives and I want to keep both the drivers for the multiport boards and the SCSI board. I think I can get it to run Linux but I *really* don't want to blow away the Xenix. So - does any body know where I can find a way into Xenix? Are there any archives of CERT Advisories on glaring holes I can worm my way into editing the passwd file or something? I realize I could run CRACK but since that isn't what I normally do for FUN I was hoping the mass intellegence and huge experience in this list might be able to help 8-) All suggestions are welcome - except blowing it away. BC From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 13 22:38:27 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <33A20086.480C@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 13, 97 07:23:02 pm Message-ID: <9706140238.AA27140@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2606 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970613/cd0fa174/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Fri Jun 13 21:51:02 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: from "Brett" at Jun 13, 97 09:34:04 pm Message-ID: <199706140251.WAA17501@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Brett once stated: > > > I realize this is a little off-topic (last build was about 1987 or 88) > but I have my self in a corner 8-) There are a couple of windows I could > crawl thru if I HAD to. > > I have a pristene TI Xenix 386DX16 system. > > I have access to one account and - you guessed it - it ain't root! > Nobody seems to remember the root password 8-( > > I can't believe that I can't break into this thing! [snip] > So - does any body know where I can find a way into Xenix? There are two I know of off hand that may let you in; one requiring you to know your Intel 386 Assembly. And both assume you are running certain programs. The first is via sendmail. There used to be a way to get into a debugging mode and have sendmail run arbitrary commands, and since it often ran as root, this was one way someone could break into a system. The debug mode of sendmail is the "wizard" mode, but I came onto the e-mail scene just after this hole was closed (after the Robert Morris Internet Worm of '88). I don't know more than that, sorry. The second requires the Intel 386 Assembly and assumes you have fingerd running (has to be fingerd). What this entails is feeding the fingerd program too much information, which overwrites the program stack. With careful programming, the excess information can be code that will then run arbitrary commands (since fingerd often runs as root). This will also require you to know where in memory the executable is loaded into so you provide a valid return address on the stack. If you don't have either of those, try finding an interactive setuid root program you can run, as it too, may be possible to overrun an input buffer. There may be easier ways, I just don't know of them offhand (do you have access to another Xenix system? Could you mount your drives to it? Can you boot MS-DOS on it (from the floppy)? If so, you might be able to use Norton Utilities to scan the harddrive for the password file and modify it there (and if not Norton, then some other low level disk editor program)). -spc (Just some ideas ... ) From BigLouS at aol.com Fri Jun 13 22:16:34 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <970613231633_134792636@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-13 16:35:47 EDT, Ray Stricklin wrote: > I'm just curious, but what's special about the MX-80? The MX-80 was the first low cost RELIABLE dot matrix printer and made printing an affordable reality for we poor early micro users. The Paper Tiger was (to the best of my memory) the first low cost ($995, again to the best of my memory) micro dot matrix printer. Unfortunately it was NOT very reliable. BTW after my post on collecting printers I suddenly realized I have about 12 lying around so I guess I am sort of collecting them - but it's against my will. :-) Lou From BigLouS at aol.com Fri Jun 13 22:16:35 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Thrifts out of controll Message-ID: <970613231635_1011353020@emout06.mail.aol.com> I frequent two thrift stores in the same town on a regular basis and the prices, while higher than what you folks on the west cost are used to, were reasonable. However three weeks ago they started getting in a lot of PC equipment and the prices on it were ridiculous i.e $70 for a Packard Bell XT clone with a monochrome monitor and $50 for an IBM 5150 PC with monitor. While I was amused I wasn't really concerned since I have little interest in this type of gear. Now however the madness has infected the old 8 bit equipment. Some examples. Apple IIc with monitor, 5 1/4" and 3 1/2" external drives $75. Not too bad you say. Well then how about a C-64 with a 1571 disk drive and power supplies for $80? The killer was a Coco 1 with manuals for $99 dollars. Three weeks ago the C-64 and the Coco would have been $12 each and the 1571 about $15. I assume that they have someone new pricing this equipment but I can't for the life of me figure out the rationale behind these prices. Needless to say they're not moving much equipment. Sorry for the rant but I just had to let it out. I did complain to the cashier who said (sincerely I believe) that she would inform the manager . Lou From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 13 23:33:05 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <970613231633_134792636@emout05.mail.aol.com> from "BigLouS@aol.com" at Jun 13, 97 11:16:34 pm Message-ID: <9706140333.AA01734@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 674 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970613/3d68a1ef/attachment.ksh From thompson at squirrel.tgsoft.com Fri Jun 13 22:46:38 1997 From: thompson at squirrel.tgsoft.com (mark thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Earl's Message-ID: <19970614034638.10532.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com> Earl's down here (a liquidation place) has a DEC Rainbow for sale. I don't exactly remember what they want for it, but i remember thinking it was ridiculous (probably the better half of 100 bills, maybe more). However, if anybody wants this particular curio, I will be glad to trot down there and grab it for you. (If you aren't aware - it is a dual processor 8080 (CP/M) and 8086 (CP/M 86 or MS-DOS) computer with 2 5.25" floppies). I used to have one that belonged to work... it is kinda cool. -mark From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 13 23:53:23 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970613215323.00e0ed7c@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:29 AM 6/13/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > >> Wish I had my old MX-80 with the bootleg Graftrax ROM. > >I'm just curious, but what's special about the MX-80? Well... to my mind the thing that made the MX-80 somewhat revolutionary for its time was the user replacable print head that initially retailed for about $35.00. Compared against other printers of the time which required a trip to the shop and an average of $200.00 in repairs for a filed head, I think it deserves its place of recognition. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 00:07:00 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: Classic Computers to Save? In-Reply-To: <33A1FB49.578A@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Bill Girnius wrote: > > > > Im still looking for a plain Apple][, and an Apple//e platinum, the one > > with the numeric keypad on the side, please check if they have any of > > either of these, as I need them for my collection. > > > > I checked and asked around at the school, but no luck. I'll talk to the > other guy and see if I missed panything ... like an Apple ][ or the > platinum edition:). The platinum edition would be a cinch to find in any school. You'd probably be VERY hard-pressed to find a vintage ][ in any school these days. Your best bet is a swap meet. That's where I found mine. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 00:04:03 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:52 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > Are there any archives of CERT Advisories on glaring holes I can > worm my way into editing the passwd file or something? I realize > I could run CRACK but since that isn't what I normally do for FUN > I was hoping the mass intellegence and huge experience in this list > might be able to help 8-) Build a device that taps into the data bus. Make it so that you can set a memory address using knobs and then the 16-bit value you want to store in that address. Then put a "fire" button on it that sets that memory address to the value. Then, find out where your uid is stored in the kernal, use your device to set the value at that address to 0, press fire and voila! You are root! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From frank at 5points.com Sat Jun 14 00:43:01 1997 From: frank at 5points.com (Frank Peseckis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Earl's In-Reply-To: <19970614034638.10532.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com> References: <19970614034638.10532.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com> Message-ID: <33af2e40.128975040@mail.capital.net> On 14 Jun 1997 03:46:38 -0000, mark thompson wrote: >Earl's down here (a liquidation place) has a DEC Rainbow for sale. [snip] >(If you aren't aware - it is a dual processor 8080 (CP/M) and 8086 (CP/M >86 or MS-DOS) computer with 2 5.25" floppies). I used to have one that >belonged to work... it is kinda cool. > Actually, the dual processors in a Rainbow are a z80a and an 8088. But I do agree they are cool machines. Frank Peseckis frank@5points.com http://www.5points.com/ From danjo at xnet.com Sat Jun 14 01:44:57 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > > Are there any archives of CERT Advisories on glaring holes I can > > worm my way into editing the passwd file or something? I realize > > I could run CRACK but since that isn't what I normally do for FUN > > I was hoping the mass intellegence and huge experience in this list > > might be able to help 8-) > > Build a device that taps into the data bus. Make it so that you can set > a memory address using knobs and then the 16-bit value you want to store > in that address. Then put a "fire" button on it that sets that memory > address to the value. Then, find out where your uid is stored in the > kernal, use your device to set the value at that address to 0, press fire > and voila! You are root! OF COURSE! That's it! How stupid of me! But I think you just got disinherited! You will NOT be getting my KIM-1 when I'm gone! 8-) 8-) Thanks Sam - I really do appreciate the - uh - effort 8-) BC From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 01:38:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Earl's In-Reply-To: <19970614034638.10532.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com> Message-ID: On 14 Jun 1997, mark thompson wrote: > Earl's down here (a liquidation place) has a DEC Rainbow for sale. I > don't exactly remember what they want for it, but i remember thinking it > was ridiculous (probably the better half of 100 bills, maybe more). > > However, if anybody wants this particular curio, I will be glad to trot > down there and grab it for you. > > (If you aren't aware - it is a dual processor 8080 (CP/M) and 8086 (CP/M > 86 or MS-DOS) computer with 2 5.25" floppies). I used to have one that > belonged to work... it is kinda cool. I had a deal going with a guy to get one for $10 plus shipping. He had several. But he said when he went to fire them up, none worked! I told him not to sweat it, but I think I'll go back and try to revive the deal. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 01:52:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > > Build a device that taps into the data bus. Make it so that you can set > > a memory address using knobs and then the 16-bit value you want to store > > in that address. Then put a "fire" button on it that sets that memory > > address to the value. Then, find out where your uid is stored in the > > kernal, use your device to set the value at that address to 0, press fire > > and voila! You are root! > > OF COURSE! That's it! How stupid of me! But I think you just got > disinherited! You will NOT be getting my KIM-1 when I'm gone! Oh come now! I should at least get brownie points for creativity! Hmph! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 01:49:19 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Thrifts out of controll In-Reply-To: <970613231635_1011353020@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > I frequent two thrift stores in the same town on a regular basis and the > prices, while higher than what you folks on the west cost are used to, were > reasonable. However three weeks ago they started getting in a lot of PC > equipment and the prices on it were ridiculous i.e $70 for a Packard Bell XT > clone with a monochrome monitor and $50 for an IBM 5150 PC with monitor. > While I was amused I wasn't really concerned since I have little interest in > this type of gear. > > Now however the madness has infected the old 8 bit equipment. Some examples. > > Apple IIc with monitor, 5 1/4" and 3 1/2" external drives $75. Not too bad > you say. Well then how about a C-64 with a 1571 disk drive and power supplies > for $80? The killer was a Coco 1 with manuals for $99 dollars. I hear you. But what you have to realize is, as lame as these prices are to us, these computers still really are usable, and probably are worth that price to some people, since the way they see it, a new computer costs in the thousands, while these only cost less than $100. To them, the distinction between computers from the 80's versus computers from the 90s is old vs. new. Not obsolete vs. new as it should be. However, as far as going market value is concerned based on flea market prices, yes these are inflated. > Three weeks ago the C-64 and the Coco would have been $12 each and the 1571 > about $15. I assume that they have someone new pricing this equipment but I > can't for the life of me figure out the rationale behind these prices. > > Needless to say they're not moving much equipment. > > Sorry for the rant but I just had to let it out. I did complain to the > cashier who said (sincerely I believe) that she would inform the manager . Sometimes the people who are in charge of the pricing at the thrifts are clueless, and just need to be informed. I went into a thrift one day and saw a bunch of nice computers that I wanted, but they were all way over-priced...$45 for a TI-99/4a, $25 for a C64, etc. I found the guy in charge of the pricing and told him diplomatically that they were way out of line. He was really cool about it and was willing to entertain an offer, so I offered $5 per unit. He agreed and ended up taking all 12 of the various systems that were sitting out. On top of that I got a 50% electronics discount (they have discounts on certain days for certain items) and then %30 on top of that for some other discount!!! I ended up paying only $25 or so. So the moral of the story is, talk to the manager and work out a deal. Tell them the prices are out of line, or else you would be interested in buying. If they still hedge, offer to come back in a week and if the systems are still there (which they most likely will be) ask to buy them at the price you want, or at least at a substantial discount. Another thrift store I go to has phenomenal pricing on old 8-bit stuff. I can usually go in there and pick-up a TI-99/4a, a VIC-20, a C64, an Atari x00, each for anywhere from $.99 to $2.98. Just last week I got a VIC-20 for $1.98. I got a TI-99/4a before that for $.99, and one day I got an Atari 800XL for $.99 and a 1050 drive for $1.98. It amazes me that they get this stuff in all the time, because this store is in a pretty low income area. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 14 06:04:31 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Thrifts out of controll In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 13, 97 11:49:19 pm Message-ID: <9706141004.AA15318@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2119 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970614/29a59243/attachment.ksh From sprague at VivaNET.com Sat Jun 14 10:16:58 1997 From: sprague at VivaNET.com (Mike Sprague) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Thrifts out of controll References: <9706141004.AA15318@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33A2B5EA.20D7@VivaNET.com> > I don't think $50-$100 for a working system with drive, OS, and > manual is too far out of line, as long as the thrift is offering > some sort of value for the extra $. For $100, I would expect to at least get a 386, not an XT. Not very long ago, surplus places were selling 486's (less the monitor) for not much more than that, and many of those systems were _new_. :-) Even older Pentium systems are well under $1,000 now, and you can do so much more with them. Of course, I claim that a computer is never obsolete until it fails to meet your needs. I would put the value of a working XT _with_ Mono/CGA/EGA monitor at about $50 max, but I would never pay that much for one (well, maybe if it had a good EGA monitor). Chuckle, most older PC's are now more valuable as individual parts, then as a whole working system. Typically, the monitor (assuming color VGA) is the most valuable part. ~ Mike From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 14 07:24:09 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: A trip back in time in Boston Message-ID: <199706141224.AA04861@world.std.com> > In particular, none of the Altairs I saw people building in the > mid-70's worked as designed; there were typos in the assembly instructions > and to get reliable front panel operation most people had to tweak > the one-shots that controlled the timing. Some of these > modifications are well documented by John Zarella, in his Byte > (1975:4 p78) article "Assembling an Altair 8800". RE:8800 (A version) BIG TIME! As someone that built one of the first it was a dog to get going and I had scopes and all the goodies. I'd also worked with the 8008 before and was Intelized as it were. A friend build one about 6 months later and it was still flakey as hell. First of many mods was to get the damm oneshots off the cpu card and put in a 8224 clock generator. I got mine to a stable state but when the S4K memories came out I upgraded asap. Better but far from great. To many oneshots. In late '78 I transfered my IO, NS* MDS to a new HORIZON box with a 4mhz z80. used the altair for a few years to support testing (front pannel). I put it in mothballs about 84 and will likely never use it again. To highly modified to even consider museum piece and in '79 it suffered a lightining hit and was never right since. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 14 07:24:25 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <199706141224.AA04918@world.std.com> > repairs. I like mine because it has serial inputs - something that's > getting increasingly hard to find on 99% of the printers in production. the venerable LA120! It was the last of the printers that could punch 8part carbon forms. The more common la100RO or LA210 serial and quite solid. I'm still running a LA100RO I bought new in 84 wide platten and rugged with fair near letter quality. other serial printers from DEC: LA34, LA36, LA38, LA12 corrospondent, LA50, LA75, LN01 with serial option (that was a 12ppm xerox laser). To mention a few. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 14 08:13:05 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Earl's Message-ID: <199706141313.AA22193@world.std.com> > (If you aren't aware - it is a dual processor 8080 (CP/M) and 8086 (CP/M > 86 or MS-DOS) computer with 2 5.25" floppies). I used to have one that > belonged to work... it is kinda cool. No that's z80 and 8088 cpus running cpm80/86. Amoung other things it would take up to 896k of ram, color adaptor and a hard disk. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 14 08:13:13 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <199706141313.AA22292@world.std.com> > > Well... to my mind the thing that made the MX-80 somewhat revolutionary fo > its time was the user replacable print head that initially retailed for > about $35.00. Compared against other printers of the time which required while significant there were other things of note. It was low cost but not cheap. It was widely sold. Many other vendors copied it, it was a defacto standard in itself. I represented a step up over many printers at twice the cost. Later version were based on it. Allison From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 08:46:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Thrifts out of controll In-Reply-To: <9706141004.AA15318@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I don't think $50-$100 for a working system with drive, OS, and manual is > too far out of line, as long as the thrift is offering some sort of > value for the extra $. For example, if the thrift is willing to > warranty the entire system, or the thrift is including an original > copy of MS-DOS 1.0 with that original PC along with the original manuals :-), > or the thrift is offering some sort of "first-time-user" support > for the system, then the thrift may very well be offering some > extra value to a certain portion of its market. I have never heard of a thrift store offering this sort of support. They are in the business of moving what amounts to garage sale items or throw-outs. I have never seen a thrift store warrant anything. > On the other hand, if the thrift is selling unsupported "as-is where-is" > no-warranty stuff for $100, I think a reality correction will be coming > along shortly for the folks there who price stuff... Exactly. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 14 10:16:55 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <199706141224.AA04918@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 14, 97 08:24:25 am Message-ID: <9706141416.AA06337@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 887 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970614/72c32201/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 14 10:43:30 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: A trip back in time in Boston In-Reply-To: <199706141224.AA04861@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 14, 97 08:24:09 am Message-ID: <9706141443.AA23097@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2116 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970614/75add4d2/attachment.ksh From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Sat Jun 14 11:11:11 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Thrifts out of controll Message-ID: <01IK24TQSS3M90OUHZ@cc.usu.edu> > I frequent two thrift stores in the same town on a regular basis and the > prices, while higher than what you folks on the west cost are used to, were > reasonable. However three weeks ago they started getting in a lot of PC > equipment and the prices on it were ridiculous i.e $70 for a Packard Bell XT > clone with a monochrome monitor and $50 for an IBM 5150 PC with monitor. > While I was amused I wasn't really concerned since I have little interest in > this type of gear. Could be worse. The University of Utah Property Redistribution Center seems to have a very odd idea of pricing. One day I went in and saw a teletype marked $300. Walked out with an HP 9100B calculator for $10. Somebody there seems to know _some_ things are collectable but has no idea exactly _what_. Last time I visited, though, it was all boring PC stuff... Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Jun 14 11:13:19 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: A trip back in time in Boston In-Reply-To: <9706141443.AA23097@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <199706141224.AA04861@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970614091319.00eafd9c@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:43 AM 6/14/97 -0800, you wrote: >> > In particular, none of the Altairs I saw people building in the >> > mid-70's worked as designed; there were typos in the assembly instructions >> > and to get reliable front panel operation most people had to tweak >> > the one-shots that controlled the timing. Some of these >> > modifications are well documented by John Zarella, in his Byte >> > (1975:4 p78) article "Assembling an Altair 8800". >> >> RE:8800 (A version) >> >> BIG TIME! As someone that built one of the first it was a dog to get going >> and I had scopes and all the goodies. I'd also worked with the 8008 before >> and was Intelized as it were. A friend build one about 6 months later and >> it was still flakey as hell. I put it in mothballs about 84 and will likely >> never use it again. To highly modified to even consider museum piece and in >> '79 it suffered a lightining hit and was never right since. > >I personally disagree with the "highly modified" == "not a museum piece". >Museums which insist on having early computers be "as shipped from >the factory" (or, as was more often the case "as assembled using the >instructions") will be sorely disappointed in the event they expect >them to run when turned on. > >As you point out, no real user of S-100 equipment ever bought an Altair >or IMSAI and then never opened it up to swap out the CPU, replace >the original memory card, or add I/O and a decent disk controller. The >S-100 world in the late 70's/early 80's was incredibly varied and >active; if a museum chooses to limit its collection to pristine machines >with only original cards, then they aren't truly representing how >leading-edge hobbyist, commercial, and industrial microcomputing was >done in that time era. I agree with Tim here. Nearly all of the early Altairs in my collection (8800, 8800a) have some mods in them (all published in the MITS newsletter "Computer Notes" if I recall correctly), although I must admit I do not remember anywhere the horrors in getting mine working as I see frequently described around here. I've even got an unmodified CPU or two about, and aside from having to wait a couple of seconds after power up for all to stabilize and then hitting the reset switch a time or two to get the CPU into a rational state, I generally don't have too many problems. (keep in mind, I ran my BBS system on my early Altair for over 10 years! It can't be *that* bad) As to their 'condition' in a 'historical' view, I can still document *all* of the mods as being contemporary to the system so I do not see how they could be viewed as lessening the systems value or historical significance. You should see the number of factory mods on some of my PDP gear! (I can document many of those too!) Now, I will grant you that on occasion it is useful to return a system to as close to an original condition as possible. In the case of the Altair for instance, one of my units has the original 4 slot motherboard, original power supply, and painfully little front panel switches. I also keep an original CPU board and 256 byte memory board that can be installed when I want it to be "original". Curiously though, when I loaned one of my Altairs to Microsoft for a preentation to the Smithsonian Museum, both parties were *much* less interested in 'original condition' than they were in the designated topic of the presentation. The Smithsonian staff had requested a demonstration of an "original" Altair 8800 running the "original" Microsoft product, 'BASIC'. Obviously, there are some contradictions here! An "original" Altair could not possibly run BASIC. That required a minimum of 4k of RAM, I/O, and a device that could read paper tape. Hardly "original" in the view of some. What I finally provided them after some discussion (and pointing out the above), was my oldest Altair (with the 4 slot motherboard), with an original CPU card, an IMS 16k memory card, MITS 2SIO serial board, and a MITS Microsoft Extended BASIC ROM board. Not "original" in the narrow view, but best suited for purposes of this demonstration, and pertectly in line with what was available around that time, with the possible exception of the ROM board. I did offer to provide them with a TTY and the paper tape (which would have been more 'historically accurate'), but the 40 minute loading time seemed to disuade them rather quickly. But I digress... I've got various views on why "museums" want to treat their displays in such manners, (having some experiance with the local ones) but I don't want to start down that path... (today...) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Sat Jun 14 13:52:39 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Stuff I looked at today Message-ID: <970614135239.2081e27f@wartburg.edu> I decided to go to garage sales this morning. I passed up an IBM 5150 with some sort of monitor for $15 or offer. It had a single 5.25" drive. I suspect it had been picked over for parts, since there was another PC there for sale, and the seller said that he "wanted to upgrade the other PC's memory with chips from this one." I didn't really want the machine, and I didn't figure it would be worth shipping. I bought a TI-99/4A for $2, in its original box. As far as I can tell, it's a complete system, but there's no software. All of you have one of these machines, right? :) -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu Sat Jun 14 11:07:43 1997 From: garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu (Gary S. Katz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199706142007.QAA07437@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu> And the DMP 100 bears a remarkable resemblance to my Radio Shack TRS-80 Line Printer 7 -- IIRC. I wrote my high school papers on this with Scripsit until I found a DMP110, which would do true lower case descenders (not available on the LP7). -gk > Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:12:30 -0400 (EDT) > From: Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers > Subject: Re: Printers > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > > > Add to that the Gorilla-Banana - 1 pin printing at it's finest! And > > probably the dumbest name I've ever seen on a piece of computer > > equipment. > > Ah yes, it bears a remarkable resemblance to my Radio Shack DMP-100. > I know that Axion sold them, can't recall the model number. But this > old DMP-100 is the most appropriate printer I've got for the 4k > non-Extended Color BASIC Color Computer. Wish I had my old MX-80 > with the bootleg Graftrax ROM. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe > > ***************************************************** Gary S. Katz 626C OEH University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA 15213 (412) 624-9347 voice (412) 624-5407 fax ***************************************************** From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 14 15:15:02 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Stuff I looked at today Message-ID: <199706142015.AA12347@world.std.com> > I bought a TI-99/4A for $2, in its original box. As far as I can tell, > it's a complete system, but there's no software. All of you have one > of these machines, right? :) If I remember it didn't come with software other than the embedded basic. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 14 15:15:09 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: MIT flea... Message-ID: <199706142015.AA12390@world.std.com> Tomorrow I will be at the MIT flea market. I have to thin my excesses. Of interest will be: memory and some other parts in tubes with old (pre81) date codes. Stuff like TMS4060, upd411, upd410, 2012... Motorola 6800D1 board, with docs and extras. Some s100 boards SEALS, IMS and PT 8k 2102 memory and others. Some Altair memory S4k and 88-4MCD, altair front pannel logic and 8080 cpu. Many with docs available. DUAL inc, 68k s100 cpu. compupro s100 motherboard. S100 box, industrial strength. Some extra CPM docs and misc books. Intel MDS800 nearly complete, no disks. I have a non intel multibus disk controller for it. Silver reed LQP, complete with docs, daisy wheels, ribbons. Working. Anadex printer working, with docs. Both serial and parallel. 2 cocos condition unknown. MISC qbus PDP11 modules including some core planes(operational!). A couple of BDV11va. Wire wrap modules. H962 diode rom boot board with docs. Assortment of power supplies. Very complete TRS80 DOCS, CPU, EI, tapes extras. Including some z80 and trs-80 books. Floppy drives, St506 drives, external single floppy boxes (al la TRS80). Fans for use in s100 or other boxes. Allison From william at ans.net Sat Jun 14 16:18:48 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Free tape drives - the deal In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970614091319.00eafd9c@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <199706142118.AA04257@interlock.ans.net> Well, I have greatly underestimated the demand for 8mm SCSI tape drives. I have been flooded with requests for the things (but oddly enough, not much else) by quite a great number of people, including some that may not be on the list ("hey, I heard your giving away tape drives! Can I have one?"). I am only giving away three units (the rest, along with just about everything else, is going to RCS/RI for trading stock) - a limitted supply, but there were only about twenty of these routers in service across the country. So, in order to get these to the right people, I would like any interested parties to tell me _why_ they want one of these drives. If it is going to be used for a classic computer or old workstation - good. If the owner respects the artifacts for what they were - better. In other words, the three people that can come up with the most noble fates for the critters will get them shipped to their door. I still really do not know any of you people well, so there will be no politics. I will announce the winners in a few days. Please send your responses to me rather than the list. The price? Still free for postage... I should add that these drives _should_ work just fine. The routers were pulled from everyday service not terribly long ago, and most have been treated well. And finally, a last minute addition - does anyone need a FDDI bypass? William Donzelli william@ans.net From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sat Jun 14 17:32:11 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970609231610.0069daec@post.keme.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970614233211.006b92f4@post.keme.co.uk> At 06:10 13/06/97 -0400, you wrote: > > >On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, steve wrote: > >> CPM DISKS Easy Download em from the net, make a 1541 lead to connect the >> 1541 to PC its in the DOX on C64s Emulator, Use a util on the PC called >> Star Commander and copy stright to a real 1541. Easy!!! If you need more >> info Mail ME.. > >Of course this all assumes that I *have* a PC. > >However, if the CP/M disks simply contain files and don't use the normal >CP/M disk structure, I can transfer the files via the parallel<->user port >cable I have. > >Otherwise I guess I'll have to write a disk image transfer program using >the modem like I did with the Apple ][. (I don't know how to do the >programming for the parallel cable, and phone cable is pysically much >easier to set up as I don't have to move any machines.) > >I have to get the hardware to work before I worry about disks, though. 22DISK allows you to convert, format and manipulate diskettes in over 450 CP/M formats to and from DOS files. Your old CP/M machine may be gone, but you can read its diskettes in the drives of your PC-compatible. Some formats will require a 1.2M diskette drive; a very few will require a diskette controller that handles single-density diskettes. An ASCII diskette description drive allows "roll your own" specifications for hard-to-find or proprietary systems. >DO YOU WANA COPY??? Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From josh at netins.net Sat Jun 14 17:43:27 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Stuff I looked at today Message-ID: <199706142243.RAA00287@ins3.netins.net> I had a good weekend. This is what I got: 2 UNOPENED boxes of QuickFile II for Apple II 1 Pinpoint Software for Apple II 1 Set of manuals for IBM PC AT 2 Sets of manuals for WordPerfect (In box like PC AT manuals) 1 TI 59 Calculator with printer 1 Apple IIE computer 1 Microsoft Softcard 1 Super Serial II card 4 Disk II drives 2 Diks II interfaces 1 Numeric pad for IIe 1 Apple II Parallel card (By apple) 1 Amiga Monitor, the nice RGB/Composite monitor, Mono 1 Kodac Diconix 150+ printer for Mac All for $50. It was at our local Science center, so I decided to be generous with my offers. They keep all procedes. Any offers for trades/for sale welcome. Any pointers to info on the softcard? Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 14 18:49:14 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970614233211.006b92f4@post.keme.co.uk> from "steve" at Jun 14, 97 11:32:11 pm Message-ID: <9706142249.AA07721@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1607 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970614/fcaaa067/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 17:59:32 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: <199706140251.WAA17501@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > > The first is via sendmail. There used to be a way to get into a debugging > mode and have sendmail run arbitrary commands, and since it often ran as > root, this was one way someone could break into a system. The debug mode of > sendmail is the "wizard" mode, but I came onto the e-mail scene just after > this hole was closed (after the Robert Morris Internet Worm of '88). I > don't know more than that, sorry. sendmail wasn't part of Xenix in those days -- all networking aside from uucp was extra, and mostly still being developed. > The second requires the Intel 386 Assembly and assumes you have fingerd > running (has to be fingerd). What this entails is feeding the fingerd > program too much information, which overwrites the program stack. With > careful programming, the excess information can be code that will then run > arbitrary commands (since fingerd often runs as root). This will also > require you to know where in memory the executable is loaded into so you > provide a valid return address on the stack. No fingerd, either. Or _any_ real networking daemons in Xenix at the time. > If you don't have either of those, try finding an interactive setuid root > program you can run, as it too, may be possible to overrun an input buffer. No real holes that I remember from Xenix in that era -- amazingly secure for a Unix port in those days. > There may be easier ways, I just don't know of them offhand (do you have > access to another Xenix system? Could you mount your drives to it? Can you > boot MS-DOS on it (from the floppy)? If so, you might be able to use Norton > Utilities to scan the harddrive for the password file and modify it there > (and if not Norton, then some other low level disk editor program)). Well, I know that the setuid hole in Profile 16 for Tandy 68000 Xenix was never fixed. But filePro 16plus for the 386 version didn't have it. Back when I broke into over half the Tandy 6000 systems in the Radio Shack Area Training and Support Offices in 1986 (by invitation from management -- I'm a hacker, not a cracker) my tools were lists of the employees' names (works nine out of ten times) and knowledge of the hole in Profile 16. Which I'd already published a fix for. (An expanded version of which is available in CIS UNIXFORUM under the filename SECURE.MS -- I'd delete it, but the account with authority to do so is ancient history). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 18:02:16 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Thrifts out of controll In-Reply-To: <970613231635_1011353020@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > Apple IIc with monitor, 5 1/4" and 3 1/2" external drives $75. Not too bad > you say. Well then how about a C-64 with a 1571 disk drive and power supplies > for $80? The killer was a Coco 1 with manuals for $99 dollars. > > Three weeks ago the C-64 and the Coco would have been $12 each and the 1571 > about $15. I assume that they have someone new pricing this equipment but I > can't for the life of me figure out the rationale behind these prices. We probably have a lurker on the mailing list. Shit happens. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 18:09:16 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970613215323.00e0ed7c@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Jim Willing wrote: > Well... to my mind the thing that made the MX-80 somewhat revolutionary for > its time was the user replacable print head that initially retailed for > about $35.00. Compared against other printers of the time which required a > trip to the shop and an average of $200.00 in repairs for a filed head, I > think it deserves its place of recognition. You mean those heads could break? Mine refused to do anything of the kind under incredible abuse. (Printing a complete set of manuals for Tandy 6000 Xenix 3.2 in one operation comes to mind -- but that wasn't the worst thing I did to the beast). My wife wouldn't let me have another printer until that one failed -- and she was a computer technician who would have recognized sabotage. Eventually I realised that it would be easier to get a different wife... -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 18:19:08 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Build a device that taps into the data bus. Make it so that you can set > a memory address using knobs and then the 16-bit value you want to store > in that address. Then put a "fire" button on it that sets that memory > address to the value. Then, find out where your uid is stored in the > kernal, use your device to set the value at that address to 0, press fire > and voila! You are root! crack is easier than finding where the kernel is going to store a UID in memory. It's not exactly a constant. (But you knew that -- using the term "uid" gives you away as knowing about processors that handle more than eight bits at a time 8-)} heretic). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 18:59:14 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <199706142007.QAA07437@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Gary S. Katz wrote: > And the DMP 100 bears a remarkable resemblance to my Radio Shack > TRS-80 Line Printer 7 -- IIRC. I wrote my high school papers on this > with Scripsit until I found a DMP110, which would do true lower case > descenders (not available on the LP7). You're right. And looking in the front room, it's an LP-7 that I've got, not a DMP-100. Now I have to use self-hypnosis to recall how they differed besides the mercedes silver to white color change. I do know they shared the same incredibly annoying noise when they were printing. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Sat Jun 14 19:04:50 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Stuff I looked at today Message-ID: <970614190450.2081de26@wartburg.edu> >I had a good weekend. This is what I got: [snip] >All for $50. It was at our local Science center, so I decided to be >generous with my offers. They keep all procedes. Any offers for >trades/for sale welcome. Any pointers to info on the softcard? Ain't kidding you had a good weekend! -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 20:15:30 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: MIT flea... In-Reply-To: <199706142015.AA12390@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > Tomorrow I will be at the MIT flea market. I have to thin my excesses. > > Of interest will be: > > Assortment of power supplies. Very complete TRS80 DOCS, CPU, EI, tapes > extras. Including some z80 and trs-80 books. > > Floppy drives, St506 drives, external single floppy boxes (al la TRS80). Allie, why do you have to inflict this torture on those of us outside convenient driving radius? Especially those of us severely queer for old TRS-80 stuff? (I can find Apple and Commode stuff everywhere -- the stuff I want is hen's teeth around north Jersey most of the time). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 20:19:20 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Stuff I looked at today In-Reply-To: <199706142015.AA12347@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > I bought a TI-99/4A for $2, in its original box. As far as I can tell, > > it's a complete system, but there's no software. All of you have one > > of these machines, right? :) > > If I remember it didn't come with software other than the embedded basic. That's all I recall. For a suitable bribe, I could open Lisa's number three TI-99/4A that's still shrink-wrapped and check. She won't notice until she gets home Monday (and I'll be in the hospital Tuesday). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 21:15:40 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <199706142007.QAA07437@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Gary S. Katz wrote: > And the DMP 100 bears a remarkable resemblance to my Radio Shack > TRS-80 Line Printer 7 -- IIRC. I wrote my high school papers on this > with Scripsit until I found a DMP110, which would do true lower case > descenders (not available on the LP7). I've been meaning to ask this: Why the hell is that program called "Scripsit"? I can't think of a stupider name. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 22:08:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Beat this haul... Message-ID: Ok, the weekend's not even over, and here's how I did: 101 Online - A neat little terminal with a 9" screen. The keyboard covers the screen and flips down with the push of a button. It has a built-in 4800bps modem. It was used to connect to some online service in California at some time or another. The whole thing is in this cute 10"x10"x10" package - $5 Laser 50 with manuals - $4 (Hi Bill!) Commodore 64, Commodore 64C (two of 'em, one seems to be this weird clone since the plastic looks different from the other one and it has no markings), two 1541 drives, two Star NX-1000C dot matrix printers - All free Data General One (Model 2) laptop. Two questions: How did the model 2 differ from the model 1? And I didn't get a power supply with this, but was told by a couple people all it requires is a special three-prong power cord. The receptacle is an oval with three conductors. Anyone know about this? - $15 2 Commodore 1541 drives, 2 Commodore 1571 drives - $8 DEC Rainbow 100 with all the trimmings (extra cards, all software and manuals) - $10 VIC-20 Modem - $1 Commodore 64 user's guide, VIC-20 User's Guide - $1 (the guy I bought this stuff from claims to have 7 PDP-11s and "several" PDP-8s that he's been hording. Needless to say I threatened him with great bodily harm if he didn't give me some. We agreed to meet to discuss the "free taking" of one of each system. He also has lots of other DEC stuff for sale and for give-away to those who would give it good homes. I will keep us posted on any late-breaking developments. He also said he has a Cyber hard drive unit which sounds like the size of a dishwasher as he described it. I think the model number was 690s or something. I know I'm way off. If anyone wants this its in California. Apparently he has tons of mostly DEC stuff he's been collecting from local colleges and universtities. Again, I'll keep us posted). And let's see, oh yeah, I'm not done! ZX-81 with manuals/power supply and... Victor 9000 and... IMSAI 8080! IMSAI MPU-A (Rev 4) 8080A CPU card IMSAI SIO (Rev 3) Serial card DCHayes Modem (I am assuming 300baud...S100!) Disk Jockey 2D/B 8" drive card (and some 8" drive...I forget the manufacturer) (4) Digital Research Company Memory Boards (I think each one is 16K) All manuals/schematics/notes plus some extra IMSAI fron panel overlays All this from the original owner for $100. What a bargain. Ok, this guy is cool. First of all, to you guys complaining that you never get anything good, here's the message I posted on my local forsale newsgroup which brought about this acquisition: ---BEGIN USENET MESSAGE--- From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 02:00:28 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: WANT TO BUY YOUR OLD-ASSED COMPUTERS! Message-ID: <5nliec$b6s$1@nnrp1.crl.com> I want your old microcomputers from the 70s and 80s. I do NOT want any common PC clone. I am looking mainly for stuff that doesn't exist in any way shape or form today. I am looking for rarer models, as I already own most of the more common micros of the early micro-revolution. Please e-mail me at dastar@crl.com with what you got and we can work out a deal. Thanks. ---END USENET MESSAGE--- So this guy, Gary, responds and tells me he has an IMSAI 8080 and a Victor 9000 he wouldn't mind getting rid of. SCORE! So anyway, he used to be an attendee of the Homebrew Computer Club, which if you don't know was a bunch of hackers and geeks (including of course Jobs and Wozniak) who got together every week or month in (I believe) either Mountain View or Sunnyvale, to show off the computers they were building. Read Steven Levy's _Hackers_ for the complete (and very entertaining) story. He was telling me all these cool stories. One was about how a Lawrence Livermore National Lab employee made a bunch of paper-tape copies of Gates' BASIC when it first came out and brought them to a meeting of the HCC, claiming that on his way over, a box of stuff dropped from a bus, and when he went to go check it out he found all these weird paper tapes in it (40 or so) and that everyone was welcome to have them, whereby he began tossing them out into the audience. Gary of course got one of them, and invited me to look at and touch it under the condition that I didn't drool on it and muss it up. It was in perfect condition! The neatest thing about it is that it had "Z80 BASIC COPYRIGHT MICROSOFT" punched into it (that isn't the actual message, I've forgotten what it said already). He said the week after, Bill himself showed up and whined to the crowd, asking "How am I supposed to make any money off this if you guys are pirating my stuff?" I'm sure, in hindsight, Bill certainly doesn't mind the fact that the Microsoft BASIC standard created by the piracy of his original BASIC has made him a $32 billion man today. He went on to tell me the stories about how he built his IMSAI and applied fixes and patches for flaws in the design, and showed me the schematics and took me through some of the documentation. He's a really neat guy. We're going to be staying in touch. He's moving soon and he says when he cleans his garage out and figures what else he has he will probably let me have some of it, including his full run of Byte magazine starting from issue 4. He also has a CompuPro 8/16 that he wanted to hang onto, as well as a Heathkit H19 terminal that he built from the kit, but he says he might not want to take them with him. So anyway, that's what a day of tooling around the bay area got me. I also met Paul Coad at a parking lot sale and we ran into Doug Coward (you may have checked out his Web museum page, I forget the URL). It was a good day. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 22:27:42 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > I've been meaning to ask this: Why the hell is that program called > "Scripsit"? I can't think of a stupider name. Damfino. It was the official name of every word processing program ever written in Fort Worth. I started with the cassette version on the Mod 1 with 16k (left 4017 bytes for text once the program was loaded) and never touched a typewriter after, except to help a friend lift an old Selectric over the edge of a Dumpster(tm). Scripsit for the Model 2 in my arrogant opinion was the best writer's word processor ever run on a Z-80. Isaac Asimov did his last 150-200 books using it -- none of that fancy crap about proportional print, kerning or multiple fonts -- what a writer needed was 10-pitch, ragged margins, double-spaced and a clean printout for the editor which the Daisy Wheel Printer II was far better at than any of these new-fangled laser things for producing. Scripsit-16 was even better in some ways, but writers didn't want to learn Xenix. (That program was unique in that it was the first serious application ported from Unix to MS-DOS instead of the other way around like Wordperfect and Samna). I'll admit for my own _use_ rather than _support, my favorite was AllWrite by ProSoft, which I used for years on my old 4p. But Scripsit was (in _ALL_ of its incarnations -- it was a different product from the core on the 1/3/4 line, 2/12, 16/6000 Xenix then MS-DOS, and Color Computer -- same name, different product on four architectures -- SuperScripsit being a very different [and faulty] can of worms) Radio Shack's only name for its home-brewed word processing programs. The word itself is a tense of "to write" in Latin. Do a web search (_ANY_ engine -- I've checked) and most of the hits you'll get on the keyword "scripsit" are documents in that language or by SCA members. The rest are mostly trivia, but one was a good article on classic computers and software by a New Mexico stringer for the New York Times, URL not presently at hand. If anybody's got a copy of AllWrite or Scripsit-PC (I want to check them out with the sundry emulators under Linux -- AllWrite should be fun running in a TRS-DOS emulator running in an MS-DOS emulator) I'm really looking for them. My AllWrite disappeared in a move, and I never thought to acquire Scripsit-PC (I never expected to have a system that was PC compatible, in honest truth -- but then Linux appeared, with _source code_). Oh, and if anyone has a copy of "The Source" to LS-DOS that can be spared (I _knew_ I should have bought it when Roy was closing it out!) I'm looking for that too. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 22:16:04 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Stuff I looked at today In-Reply-To: <970614135239.2081e27f@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Andy Brobston wrote: > I bought a TI-99/4A for $2, in its original box. As far as I can tell, > it's a complete system, but there's no software. All of you have one > of these machines, right? :) You need to start looking for carthridges. These turn up in the most mundane places...swap meets, thrift stores, garage sales, friends' closets... Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 22:35:34 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Beat this haul... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: Damn it, but I wish I could get back home to California. Either the Bay Area or Los Angeles. But silly me, I didn't get into the habit of collecting computers seriously until I exiled myself to New Jersey. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sat Jun 14 19:04:59 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Digital Group; anyone? In-Reply-To: References: <970614135239.2081e27f@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: <199706150404.AAA15051@mail.cgocable.net> Hello! Name: Jason D. Pero and Canadian citizen, in Kingston, Ontario. BTW, born in Sept. '72 so that marks me as one part of computer revolation. ;) Call me Troll for now. My first intro and been watching this mailing list for a while...Liked it this way. I collect few oldies and prevserve/rebuilding some personal computer equipments. Did several dumpster raids to save few machines. Have touched on two enhanced/souped up Osborne I's in repairs, passed on a Apple IIe /w two drive, Apple monitor to my best friend who LOVE apple stuff with good stuff right off from dumpster to keep him happy and promised to fix his flaky apple II! One Dec "internal" big, removeable hard drive that you open it up to change disk in it's pack and needs two people to move the drive. Huh! I have two Zenith XT types. One is kinda childish small luggeable XT with funny slim 5.25" and flip down keyboard. Did not want to start up often, rarely starts up. Other one 20lb monster laptop model ZWL-183-92 that works without its bad hd. I also have panasonic KX-1080 that still bangs away like new. I have somewhere lost in storage two non-working memory cores boards. My main interest at this moment: This is one of the EARLY bare computer by this company called Digital Group. It dated 1975. Wow! Given to me by original owner years ago '90. I have this boards 32k board, 2k with Z80 cpu, video board/tape cassette combo and I/O board all on the small, semi fake s100 bus. And, it also has keyboard with its oneshots on it. One thing through, the computer is not working! :( What is best way to restore it? Video part uses composite output. What is right kind of monitor to use on this one? I needed documents to set it up right and data source to recreate the ROM chip for this Z80 and some data for downloading to cassette tapes. :) Gak! There you go! Troll From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 15 01:55:12 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Computer Baseball References: Message-ID: <33A391D0.690@rain.org> I guess thing classifies as an early computer :). I am looking at "Computer Baseball" "(C) Electronic Data Controls Corporation 1969". It consists of a wooden playboard about 18" x 24" with a small playfield, a scoring matrix with 16 light bulbs along the side, and a bunch of headers along the top (Pitches, Right Field, Center Field, Left Field, Ground To 1st, Ground To 2nd, Ground To 3rd, Doubel Play, and steal). There are also five push buttons with a red one labeled "Play" and the other black ones labeled "Selections". There is also a rotary switch labeled "Outs". It looks kind of neat and is in pretty good condition but no docs, box, or infomation with it of any sort. Anyone remember this thing? From jrice at texoma.net Sun Jun 15 07:05:00 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Beat this haul... References: Message-ID: <33A3DA6C.7C70@texoma.net> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Ok, the weekend's not even over, and here's how I did: > > 101 Online - A neat little terminal with a 9" screen. The keyboard > covers the screen and flips down with the push of a button. It has a > built-in 4800bps modem. It was used to connect to some online service in > California at some time or another. The whole thing is in this cute > 10"x10"x10" package - $5 > > Laser 50 with manuals - $4 (Hi Bill!) > > Commodore 64, Commodore 64C (two of 'em, one seems to be this weird clone > since the plastic looks different from the other one and it has no > markings), two 1541 drives, two Star NX-1000C dot matrix printers - All free > > Data General One (Model 2) laptop. Two questions: How did the model 2 > differ from the model 1? And I didn't get a power supply with this, but > was told by a couple people all it requires is a special three-prong > power cord. The receptacle is an oval with three conductors. Anyone > know about this? - $15 > > 2 Commodore 1541 drives, 2 Commodore 1571 drives - $8 > DEC Rainbow 100 with all the trimmings (extra cards, all software and > manuals) - $10 > VIC-20 Modem - $1 > Commodore 64 user's guide, VIC-20 User's Guide - $1 > > (the guy I bought this stuff from claims to have 7 PDP-11s and "several" > PDP-8s that he's been hording. Needless to say I threatened him with > great bodily harm if he didn't give me some. We agreed to meet to discuss > the "free taking" of one of each system. He also has lots of other DEC > stuff for sale and for give-away to those who would give it good homes. I > will keep us posted on any late-breaking developments. He also said he > has a Cyber hard drive unit which sounds like the size of a dishwasher as > he described it. I think the model number was 690s or something. I know > I'm way off. If anyone wants this its in California. Apparently he has > tons of mostly DEC stuff he's been collecting from local colleges and > universtities. Again, I'll keep us posted). > > And let's see, oh yeah, I'm not done! > > ZX-81 with manuals/power supply and... > Victor 9000 and... > IMSAI 8080! > IMSAI MPU-A (Rev 4) 8080A CPU card > IMSAI SIO (Rev 3) Serial card > DCHayes Modem (I am assuming 300baud...S100!) > Disk Jockey 2D/B 8" drive card (and some 8" drive...I forget the > manufacturer) > (4) Digital Research Company Memory Boards (I think each one is 16K) > All manuals/schematics/notes plus some extra IMSAI fron panel overlays > > All this from the original owner for $100. What a bargain. > > Ok, this guy is cool. First of all, to you guys complaining that you > never get anything good, here's the message I posted on my local forsale > newsgroup which brought about this acquisition: > > ---BEGIN USENET MESSAGE--- > > >From nnrp1.crl.com!dastar Fri Jun 13 18:41:15 1997 > Path: nnrp1.crl.com!dastar > From: dastar@crl.com (Sam Ismail) > Newsgroups: ba.market.computers > Subject: WANT TO BUY YOUR OLD-ASSED COMPUTERS! > Date: 11 Jun 1997 07:00:28 GMT > Organization: Gigantor Industries, Ltd. > Lines: 12 > Message-ID: <5nliec$b6s$1@nnrp1.crl.com> > Reply-To: spam@spam.org (CHANGE THIS REPLY-TO FIELD IF YOU WANT ME TO GET YOUR MESSAGE) > NNTP-Posting-Host: crl9.crl.com > X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] > Xref: nnrp1.crl.com ba.market.computers:90318 > > I want your old microcomputers from the 70s and 80s. I do NOT want any > common PC clone. I am looking mainly for stuff that doesn't exist in > any way shape or form today. I am looking for rarer models, as I already > own most of the more common micros of the early micro-revolution. > Please e-mail me at dastar@crl.com with what you got and we can work out > a deal. Thanks. > > ---END USENET MESSAGE--- > > So this guy, Gary, responds and tells me he has an IMSAI 8080 and a Victor > 9000 he wouldn't mind getting rid of. SCORE! So anyway, he used to be an > attendee of the Homebrew Computer Club, which if you don't know was a > bunch of hackers and geeks (including of course Jobs and Wozniak) who got > together every week or month in (I believe) either Mountain View or > Sunnyvale, to show off the computers they were building. Read Steven > Levy's _Hackers_ for the complete (and very entertaining) story. He was > telling me all these cool stories. One was about how a Lawrence Livermore > National Lab employee made a bunch of paper-tape copies of Gates' BASIC > when it first came out and brought them to a meeting of the HCC, claiming > that on his way over, a box of stuff dropped from a bus, and when he went > to go check it out he found all these weird paper tapes in it (40 or so) > and that everyone was welcome to have them, whereby he began tossing them > out into the audience. Gary of course got one of them, and invited me to > look at and touch it under the condition that I didn't drool on it and > muss it up. It was in perfect condition! The neatest thing about it is > that it had "Z80 BASIC COPYRIGHT MICROSOFT" punched into it (that isn't > the actual message, I've forgotten what it said already). He said the > week after, Bill himself showed up and whined to the crowd, asking "How > am I supposed to make any money off this if you guys are pirating my > stuff?" I'm sure, in hindsight, Bill certainly doesn't mind the fact > that the Microsoft BASIC standard created by the piracy of his original > BASIC has made him a $32 billion man today. > > He went on to tell me the stories about how he built his IMSAI and applied > fixes and patches for flaws in the design, and showed me the schematics > and took me through some of the documentation. He's a really neat guy. > We're going to be staying in touch. He's moving soon and he says when he > cleans his garage out and figures what else he has he will probably let me > have some of it, including his full run of Byte magazine starting from > issue 4. He also has a CompuPro 8/16 that he wanted to hang onto, as well > as a Heathkit H19 terminal that he built from the kit, but he says he > might not want to take them with him. > > So anyway, that's what a day of tooling around the bay area got me. I also > met Paul Coad at a parking lot sale and we ran into Doug Coward (you may > have checked out his Web museum page, I forget the URL). > > It was a good day. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Sam the DG1 series took a special brick supply. I have one at work (I was private labeled at the Allen-Bradley T-45 programming terminal). I'll measure the output and polarity and get back with you. James L. Rice From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 13 17:28:14 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Terak 8510a In-Reply-To: <199706121219.5293@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > Oh, you lucky thing!. The Terak is a machine I'm looking out for, and I've > never managed to find one. Whatever you do, look after it. I hadn't heard of it a month ago, but the moment I read about it I just wanted one. Guess what happens a few weeks after that. Can't be abysmally unlucky /all/ your life. I may not have a PDP-{8,11}, but I have something extremely close. And it's my first ever non-Motorola/Zilog/MOS platform. :-) > Any ideas as to which model? If it's the long-lost PERQ T4, serial number > DEMO01, I'll not be responsible for my actions :-).... I can't identify them, I'm afraid. It's got the (typical, I think) portrait screen and a big floor unit with a single 8" floppy drive. I doubt it's got a serial number that low, but here's its story. Maybe it's useful and maybe it'll make you berserk, grabbing the first plane to Edinburgh with froth coming out of your mouth. :-) Anyway, according to DAI's Systems Manager, Edinburgh University (or DAI, specifically, can't remember) was evaluating workstations on behalf of UK universities. Among the candidates (maybe the ONLY candidates) were the Sun 2 series and the Perq. I believe the Sun 2 was considered better in the end, but there were some Perqs left around the university. My estimation is that happened sometime around 1982. Whether this is a particularly rate Perq or not, three people went to that storage room. Three people bathed the Perq in saliva until the Systems Manager had to tell us something to the effect of "don't even think about it, we're keeping the Perq". Can't complain, really... I wouldn't be able to give the Perq a good enough home. It's safe in the storage room. > Seriously, if you are looking out for a PERQ, and don't really mind which > model you get (They are _ALL_ fine machines), you are very likely to find > one. An advert on alt.sys.perq will often get results. I'm looking for any and all good machines. Unfortunately, I suffer from two problems: lack of space and a requirement to ship or lug all of my stuff across Europe. It's distressing, sometimes. Maybe I ought to get a driver's license and buy a 2nd hand truck (oh yes, and lots of razor blades, just in case). :-) > Pity. That machine should be kept running, and not just stuck in a > museum... I agree. Thing is, it's going to the new wing of the Edinburgh Museum (right across the street from DAI), along with (I think) a PDP-8, its ASR-33 and the Freddy, the world's first (and HUGE) intelligent assembly robot, controlled by the PDP-8. They might actually get the machines to work every now and then. We can only hope. > Or like I did when faced with 10 tables covered in DEC spares and the > comment 'Take whatever you want' ! Heh, that was almost the case in there. With some notable exceptions (the Perq), it was a "help yourself" thing. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sat Jun 14 23:31:26 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Beat this haul... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15-Jun-97, Sam Ismail wrote: >ZX-81 with manuals/power supply and... It looks like you may have a machine to try those two T/S-1000 tapes that are on their way to you if that machine works. >Victor 9000 and... >IMSAI 8080! Darn...the way I keep seeing posts about S100 stuff in California, it makes me wish I were out there! In the nearly 14 years I've been here on the east coast, I've yet to run across ANY type of S100 stuff, though the first few years I was out here, I wasn't exactly looking for it either. Maybe at some point I'll have such luck! Congrats Sam!! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and Collector of early, classic microcomputers From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 15 08:29:29 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Atari 800-XL (fwd) Message-ID: Hello folks! I've received the following message from someone who needs to find a good home for his Atari 800XL system (free): If interested, please reply to him. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Greetings! I have a fully functional working 800-XL with expanded memory, a Smith-Corona printer, a good disk drive, a good monitor, a 300-baud modem (whoopee!), enough books and manuals to stock a small library (currently mine), all issues but the first 12 or or of ANTIC, ANALOG, and COMPUTE magazines, and a whole lot of disks, some directly from magazines, some from user groups, most from listings I've typed in. Since I've upgraded to the PC, the Atari system has become expendable, and needs to go -- I need the room. Realizing that, by your email, you are not a hop, skip, OR jump away from me, here's hoping you can put me in touch with someone who'll be able to give my 'baby' a good home. Thanks, Doug Rasmussen 1233 - 167th Ave. S.E. Bellevue, WA 98008 Phone: (425) 747-3846 Fax: (425) 644-8912 email: pptdoug@aa.net ---------------------------------------- --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From transit at primenet.com Sun Jun 15 09:38:05 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Eastern European Computing (was: Re: MSX comments.... (Re:) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > > > And, finally, this project (the MSX) did NOT fail miserably. In the United > > States, teh MSX did fail miserably... but mainly because of the fact that > > it was not widely marketed here. The MSX was VERY popular in Asia and, I > > believe, in Europe. To tell you the truth it still is! I happen to be a [...] > > WoW! The more I hear about this thing the more I want one. It's amazing > that this system was so unknown in the states. It's like discovering a > whole new species. Of course, I'd never heard of the Oric either until I > started doing more research into older computers. I wonder if anything > will come out of the old eastern bloc countries. I hear they did quite a > bit of cloning of western technology. I remember a Byte Magazine from about 10 years ago that had an article about a Russian Apple II clone (called the "Agat"). It used a modified DOS that used the hi-res screens to display Cyrillic characters . . . From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 15 10:00:19 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Eastern European Computing (was: Re: MSX comments.... (Re:) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > I remember a Byte Magazine from about 10 years ago that had an article > about a Russian Apple II clone (called the "Agat"). It used a modified > DOS that used the hi-res screens to display Cyrillic characters . . . And it cost equivalent to about US$15,000 at the time. Without paying royalties to Apple. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 15 08:55:14 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <9706140238.AA27140@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > All the parts are still available. C&K makes the exact same > front panel switches to this day (they'll run you US$7 or so each, > which really adds up fast!), and 8080A's are still available from > places like Jameco. The date codes won't all be from 1975-76 > when you're done, but who cares? Out of curiosity, are the schematics and/or assembly manual freely available anywhere on-line? --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 15 11:20:28 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: PONG Message-ID: <33A4164C.397D@ndirect.co.uk> Doeas anybody have a photograph of "PONG" the first video game ever? Or where I can find one? I have never seen it and I don't know how it looks like so I will not be able to recognize it if I ever bump into one. Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From kyrrin at wizards.net Sun Jun 15 10:55:48 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Intro (belated) Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970615085548.00f73768@mail.wizards.net> Heh... I should probably have done this just after I subscribed. Oh well... Yes, it's me. Some of you may already have at least gotten an E-mail from me, or spoken to me on the phone. I have a whole garage full of DEC stuff, including several MicroVAX II's, MicroPDP-11/23 and 11/73, appropriate monster hard drives, a couple of Cipher front-loading tape units, various parts and racks, etc. DEC stuff is my current Big Thing, though I regret that I don't have the space nor the power facilities to handle the full-size machines (like the 11/70 or the VAX-11 series). Still, MicroVAXen and the PDP's make for interesting diversions. I've been working with electronics since I was old enough to start tearing things apart (not that I got them back together that often!), have been a ham radio op since 1977, and working with computers on and off since 1978. I currently work at Boeing Defense & Space group, operations, computing support (been there since November). I am happily married, and my mate knew darn well what she was getting into when she married a techie. I'm not a Washington native, though I do live in Kent at the moment (I think of myself as an 'unrepentant Californian'). For those that are curious beyond this post, I invite you to have a look at http://www.wizards.net/technoid. Among other things, I have a listing of both Washington and California electronics-oriented swap meets and surplus stores on the link 'The Wonderful World of Scrounging.' I gladly invite corrections and updates to said list! Let's see, what else...? I try to make at least two trips a year to the Bay Area for scrounging purposes (Sam? Want to get together sometime and introduce me to some of the other local collectors?), and to meet up with a friend of mine in San Jose who shares my interests. We've often done selling or buying trips to the Bay Area swap meets together, having known each other since about 1980. That's about all I can think of at the moment. Caveat emptor! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Jun 15 10:57:00 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Turned over the right rocks... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970615085700.00f33af8@agora.rdrop.com> Well... this may not beat Sam's weekend haul, (and if he finds a 'Straight' 8 from this mysterious person I'm *really* gonna be jealous) but I think it's significant. A note to begin: I'm announcing this here initially as a sort of place holder before I proceed as will be noted below. A bit of a CYA action you might say... --- we begin --- I was doing some *long* overdue cleaning in the Computer Garage this weekend, and finally located some items that I knew were there but had not mentioned since I could not locate them. Even now, I have not located *all* of them, but enough to make their presence known. Somewhere between probably 5-8 years ago, I purchased some equipment, documentation, and supplies from a sale being held by some Digital Research, Inc. staff. Little did I know just what I was coming into. In addition to some S-100 hardware that been used for development, I purchased a series of disks and original DRI binders. To be specific to what I have (re-)located so far, the binders contain complete source listings for MP/M versions 1.1 and 2.0, and CP/M Plus version 3.0 and all supporting utilities and programs. If I recall correctly from when I originally received the materials, I should also have the sources for CP/M version 2.2 and the associated disks. (don't hold me to this until I locate the other boxes tho. B^} ) To be fair, I will be contacting Caldera on Monday and will not be accepting requests for access to these documents until such time as I have verified their standing with Caldera. --- why this message? --- Basically, so that the existance of this material is known in the unlikely event that I should recieve an unfavourable reaction from Caldera. I try to avoid entanglements with those in the legal profession, but past experience has shown that a 'document trail' never hurts... More news as it becomes available... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 15 02:32:29 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:53 2005 Subject: Osbourne Executive (fwd) Message-ID: Here's a message I recieved last year after the aquisition of my Osborne Executive that I thought some of you might find interesting: *** Forwarded message, originally written by Arthur N. Borg on 14-Aug-96 *** Dear Jeff, At the time that the Osbourne was being designed, I worked for the company that made the display. I remember clearly asking one of the Osbourne engineers what he thought about the IBM PC that had recently been introduced. He said, that computer has a color display, It is just a toy or video game. Ours is a business computer. The Osbourne executive ran CP/M 3.0 as the operating system. If you have an operating system disk and a format and modem disk. You should have access to everything that you need. Walnut Creek has a CD-ROM with more CP/M material than you could imagine. I (think) that I have a set of manuals but I also (think) that they are in storage in the United States. One caveat. In the manual there is a drawing showing how to connect the parallel port to a Centronics printer. The drawing is totally incorrect. I spent a week re-wiring the dongle so that the printer would work. The Osbourne Executive has two unusual features. First, the printer port is alsso a bi-directional IEE-488 interface and so the machine could control and monitor lab equipment and so on. Also, the type face is loaded into ram at start up and so, you can devise your own type face or use Greek or whatever. We also made some of the displays for the Osbourne 1 and having a 63 character display was very limiting. Fitting 80 characters on a 7 inch display was not easy. You will note if you have a full screen of characters, as you turn the machine around, the earth's magnetic field tends to make the outer characters slip out of view. Osbourne was roundly condemned for announcing this machine too early and killing sales for the Osbourne 1 and thus killing the company. I think that this is a harsh judgement. This was the time that FCC radiation rules were just getting started and everyone was having a hard time meeting them. In plain fact, I think that they didn't realize how big a task they had to pass this test. I saw some figures after the company died. There was no week that they were in business that the company had a positive cash flow. You could see from the curves that somewhere out in the future, they would have a positive cash flow. I think that the investors just felt that there was too much going for IBM and pulled the plug on Osbourne. Best regards, Art Borg ***End of forwarded message Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 15 11:49:13 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 References: Message-ID: <33A41D09.3C83@ndirect.co.uk> Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > > On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > All the parts are still available. C&K makes the exact same > > front panel switches to this day (they'll run you US$7 or so each, > > which really adds up fast!), and 8080A's are still available from > > places like Jameco. The date codes won't all be from 1975-76 > > when you're done, but who cares? > > Out of curiosity, are the schematics and/or assembly manual freely > available anywhere on-line? > > --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- > Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk > The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk I am very interested in building one. How do I find the address of C&K? Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sun Jun 15 08:23:08 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Osbourne Executive (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706151723.NAA02795@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:32:29 +0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Jeff Hellige > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Osbourne Executive (fwd) > Here's a message I recieved last year after the aquisition of my Osborne > Executive that I thought some of you might find interesting: > > > *** Forwarded message, originally written by Arthur N. Borg on 14-Aug-96 *** > Dear Jeff, > At the time that the Osbourne was being designed, I worked for the company > that made the display. I remember clearly asking one of the Osbourne engineers > what > he thought about the IBM PC that had recently been introduced. He said, that > computer has a color display, It is just a toy or video game. Ours is a > business > computer. > The Osbourne executive ran CP/M 3.0 as the operating system. If you have an > operating system disk and a format and modem disk. You should have access to > everything that you need. Walnut Creek has a CD-ROM with more CP/M material > than > you could imagine. Nip! parallel woes.... > The > Osbourne Executive has two unusual features. First, the printer port is alsso > a Snap! Techanical babble.... > character display was very limiting. Fitting 80 characters on a 7 inch display > was > not easy. You will note if you have a full screen of characters, as you turn > the > machine around, the earth's magnetic field tends to make the outer characters > slip > out of view. Osbourne was roundly condemned for announcing this machine too > early > and killing sales for the Osbourne 1 and thus killing the company. I think > that > this is a harsh judgement. This was the time that FCC radiation rules were > just > getting started and everyone was having a hard time meeting them. In plain > fact, I > think that they didn't realize how big a task they had to pass this test. Following this design of these portables... I did repair work on two machines of Osborne 1's, I was horrified at type of this design inside. The power supply is bit weak and nearly tight spot so dead air there. The display cage frame is oddball type, the motherboard looked like it was retrofitted there with too much space in there. Whole thing, the machine did not have any EMI shielding AT ALL. The display would jump in sync with every clunks from the massive drive. There was already two generations and that Osborne 1 is last generation and they're selling like hotcakes but Osborne made mistake of preannoucing new Osborne Ex. :( First generation type uses flat ribbon cable for the keyboard and different face plate. The second generation uses coiled keyboard cable with cleaner look of the faceplate. That's Osborne 1. There is retrofits of add on boards that doubles the capacity of each drives from 90k to 180k each and makes the display to show 80 columns on that dinky 3" display. UGH! The physical design of this Osborne is like that: Top and bottom shell clamps onto "plastic shaped shelf" that I will call it shelf. The faceplate is kept in place by 6 or 8 screws around the edges of the both shells. The underside of this shelf have four stilts with metal lugs that held the bit smaller bare retangular motherboard and amazing thing, it has no support in middle of that long motherboard! The monitor sit in middle on raised part of the upside shelf with both full height drive in both sides. All three devices are secured from bottom with screws. The power supply is just loosely nestled into a insulated cavity behind one drive. Pretty iffy design if you ask me! Anyway, that company had the fresh start overall but the Canadian company had the right stuff to make a true great solid machine called Hyperion which I have in storage. True PC clone. The internals is very solid, no dead air and it does have a variable speed fan that runs but speeds up when drive is in use. Too bad, I wished they did redevelop the Hyperion again with 100 percent compatible BIOS and better display , the previous one is about 80 percent compatible. I know some users still use this Hyperions somewhere in that town of mine. :) Hyperions monitor size is about 7" diagonal and uses amber monochrome which is more pleasing to look at and very sharp. Both drives is stacked on. Overall the package is very compact about 10" tall and 18 inches wide, depth is about foot. Can fit that machine under the 747 chair easily which ad did showed! Memory is 256k standard but you can plug in external small memory board to bring it up to 640k via the expansion port! It has modem as a option, parallel, serial standard and expansion port. Also there is a option that allows you to use external hard drive on it. > > > Best regards, > > Art Borg > > ***End of forwarded message > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers > > Troll From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 15 13:32:36 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Classic semi-portables Message-ID: With the current thread on Osborne's machines (he was a great writer about computer concepts, a fair engineer, and a _lousy_ businessman -- level of incompetence at work ala the Peter Principle), I realise that besides Kaypro, there is another line of pre-laptops I'm interested in. If anybody gets a line on an available Otrona CP/M system, I am very interested. I thought it was the prettiest luggable around, even though I continue very loyal to my TRS-80 4P. What ever happened to Otrona, anyway? Did they get absorbed by Olivetti and forced to make pathetic PC semi-compatibles for AT&T? (The Olivetti/AT&T PC 6300 had a video connector that carried 70vdc to the monitor from a connector that looked like a PC parallel port [female DB-25] until a customer mistook which connector was which, I thought that _nothing_ could kill a TRS-80 Daisy Wheel Printer II -- the aroma of semiconductors reverting to rocks in both printer and CPU demonstrated that something indeed could). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From kyrrin at wizards.net Sun Jun 15 13:34:49 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: More FREE! to good home... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970615113449.00f772e0@mail.wizards.net> In looking through my garage last night, I found an old (about '84 vintage) NCR I-Tower computer system. 68020 based, this particular beastie ran a variant of Unix customized for NCR. I would far rather have the space for DEC stuff. With that in mind, anyone who cares to visit Kent, WA (east hill) can haul this beast away for the asking. Worst case, the main tower has an integral UPS; you could probably adapt such to other systems. Drop me an E-mail if interested, or give me a call at (253) 639-9555. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 15 04:57:01 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Classic semi-portables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15-Jun-97, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: >If anybody gets a line on an available Otrona CP/M system, I am very >interested. I thought it was the prettiest luggable around, even though Ward, VERY bad timing for this post. A couple of months ago, I was talking to a guy who I had bought something else from, and he had decided to offer me the Otrona that he had. Unfortunately, I didn't have the $125 he wanted for it, it's additional external monitor, manuals and software, so I passed on it. It just happens that I finally deleted all of the correspondance with him about 3 days ago while doing some badly needed maintenance on my system. I'll see if I can't come up with his email address and such from somewhere. Jeff Jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sun Jun 15 14:07:54 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Wanted In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970615113449.00f772e0@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970615200754.0068598c@post.keme.co.uk> Wanted Vic 20 Modem, C64 Freezer cart. Oh and another Vectrex would also be nice !!! Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 15 14:12:20 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Classic semi-portables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > VERY bad timing for this post. A couple of months ago, I was talking to a > guy who I had bought something else from, and he had decided to offer me the > Otrona that he had. Unfortunately, I didn't have the $125 he wanted for it, > it's additional external monitor, manuals and software, so I passed on it. It > just happens that I finally deleted all of the correspondance with him about 3 > days ago while doing some badly needed maintenance on my system. I'll see if I > can't come up with his email address and such from somewhere. External monitor? The Otrona (and Cromemco and Apple and several other lines) dealer next door to the RSCC where I did tech support in downtown L.A. never had or mentioned anything like that, and neither as I recall did Jerry Pournelle in print or in person. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 15 14:44:43 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Atari 800-XL (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > Greetings! > > I have a fully functional working 800-XL with expanded memory, a > Smith-Corona printer, a good disk drive, a good monitor, a 300-baud > modem (whoopee!), enough books and manuals to stock a small library > (currently mine), all issues but the first 12 or or of ANTIC, ANALOG, > and COMPUTE magazines, and a whole lot of disks, some directly from > magazines, some from user groups, most from listings I've typed in. > Since I've upgraded to the PC, the Atari system has become expendable, > and needs to go -- I need the room. > > Doug Rasmussen > 1233 - 167th Ave. S.E. > Bellevue, WA 98008 This looks like a job for Kai! Lucky bastard, this is a good lot. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From MoeHoward1 at aol.com Sun Jun 15 15:10:17 1997 From: MoeHoward1 at aol.com (MoeHoward1@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <970615160952_-1832037970@emout12.mail.aol.com> Hello! I have a Victor 9000, cheap to good home. The technological cutting edge in 1979, it has a keyboard that includes a 1/2 and 1/4 key, a wonderfully massive dot matrix printer, and a version of Wordstar that is truly hideous. Plus other software. The thing seems to run on DOS 1.25. It has been in my garage for years, and I hate to see such a monstrosity go without victims. Is there someone out there who would like to have it? Please respond to MoeHoward1@aol.com or David.Stevens@pgw.com. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 15 22:14:53 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Terak 8510a In-Reply-To: ; from "Alexios Chouchoulas" at Jun 13, 97 11:28 pm Message-ID: <199706152114.2903@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > Oh, you lucky thing!. The Terak is a machine I'm looking out for, and I've > > never managed to find one. Whatever you do, look after it. > > I hadn't heard of it a month ago, but the moment I read about it I just > wanted one. Guess what happens a few weeks after that. Can't be abysmally Yes, there are machines like that - in my case, the PDP8 was one of them. On the other hand, I didn't even know what a PERQ was when I was offered one - it was basically 'Would you like a PERQ - we have one going spare', but I fell in love as soon as I saw it... > unlucky /all/ your life. I may not have a PDP-{8,11}, but I have something I thought the Terak had a Qbus backplane and a standard LSI11 CPU card. In which case it's as close to a PDP11 as anything non-DEC ever can be... Talking of obscure PDP11-related machines, has anyone else ever come across the Tektronix 8530 etc systems. These machines were sold as micro development systems and lived in 2 racks - one contained an LSI11 (or PDP11/23) CPU card + RAM + disk controller + I/O + drives (either a couple of 8" floppies or one floppy and a Micropolis 1200 hard disk), while the other contained the development options -- in-circuit emulators, logic analyser, EPROM programmer, etc. They ran either a much-hacked RT11 or a much-hacked Unix. > extremely close. And it's my first ever non-Motorola/Zilog/MOS platform. :-) You mean you don't have _anything_ with an Intel CPU (4004, 4040, 8008, 8080, 8085, 80x86, 80x88)? > > > > Any ideas as to which model? If it's the long-lost PERQ T4, serial number > > DEMO01, I'll not be responsible for my actions :-).... > > I can't identify them, I'm afraid. It's got the (typical, I think) > portrait screen and a big floor unit with a single 8" floppy drive. I doubt The portrait screen means it's probably a 1, 1a or 2T1. While _all_ models could use such a monitor, the 2T2 and 2T4 tended to come with 19" landscape displays. > > Seriously, if you are looking out for a PERQ, and don't really mind which > > model you get (They are _ALL_ fine machines), you are very likely to find > > one. An advert on alt.sys.perq will often get results. > > I'm looking for any and all good machines. Unfortunately, I suffer from > two problems: lack of space and a requirement to ship or lug all of my stuff Uh-Oh. I think we all ran out of space _years_ ago.... > across Europe. It's distressing, sometimes. Maybe I ought to get a driver's > license and buy a 2nd hand truck (oh yes, and lots of razor blades, just in > case). :-) Moving a large collection of machines is a right pain - in my case, even considering fitting all the shipping clamps, parking the heads, locking things into the racks, etc would take a couple of days. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 15 17:49:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <970615160952_-1832037970@emout12.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 MoeHoward1@aol.com wrote: > I have a Victor 9000, cheap to good home. The technological cutting edge in > 1979, it has a keyboard that includes a 1/2 and 1/4 key, a wonderfully > massive dot matrix printer, and a version of Wordstar that is truly hideous. > Plus other software. The thing seems to run on DOS 1.25. It has been in my > garage for years, and I hate to see such a monstrosity go without victims. > Is there someone out there who would like to have it? Please respond to > MoeHoward1@aol.com or David.Stevens@pgw.com. 1979? The Victor 9000 came out in 1985/86 according to previous discussions. Indeed it would have been the "technological cutting edge" in 1979, and for quite some time as it would have pre-dated the computer it was supposed to be semi-compatible with. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 15 17:54:31 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Terak 8510a In-Reply-To: <199706152114.2903@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > Moving a large collection of machines is a right pain - in my case, even > considering fitting all the shipping clamps, parking the heads, locking > things into the racks, etc would take a couple of days. This I can personally attest to. I am ashamed to admit, and must confess, that during my move last year, at one point during my desperate attempts to complete my move before my deadline, I actually paused to consider why in the hell I have so many damn computers I drag with me all over? I actually re-considered the point of it all. Luckily I over came my feeling of helplessness and managed to get everything packed and driven over to my new place. It was late at night, and this was like the 8th load of the day, and I STILL had stuff left yet, and it was around 1:30AM, and I was tired. Forgive me all, forgive me. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 15 09:29:04 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Classic semi-portables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15-Jun-97, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: >External monitor? The Otrona (and Cromemco and Apple and several other >lines) dealer next door to the RSCC where I did tech support in downtown >L.A. never had or mentioned anything like that, and neither as I recall >did Jerry Pournelle in print or in person. That's what he said. It was an Attache, and he definately said it had some sort of external monitor on it. I know my Executive has an output for one. BTW, all I can come up with was that his name is Roy Tally. I started conversing with him because he saw one of my posts on Usenet. I'm not even sure which group he was from though. Sorry I can't be more specific. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 15 20:14:30 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: PONG References: <33A4164C.397D@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33A49376.66B9@rain.org> e.tedeschi wrote: > > Doeas anybody have a photograph of "PONG" the first video game ever? Or > where I can find one? I have never seen it and I don't know how it looks > like so I will not be able to recognize it if I ever bump into one. > I don't know if I have any of the Pong advertisements or not, but I most likely have something close. It is pretty easy to recognize as the cabinet was about 27" or so wide, about 30" deep, and stood somewhere around 6 feet high. It had a black and white monitor. Of course, the "Pong" on the marquee is kind of a giveaway :). The front panel had two knobs, one for each player, but I don't recall if there were push buttons labeled "One Player", "Two Player" and "Start" although I *think* they did. If you aren't aware, it was manufactured by Atari about 1972 (don't recall the exact date.) A good place to ask would be rec.collecting.video.arcade (or the name is something like that.) From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 15 20:19:28 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: MIT flea... Message-ID: <199706160119.AA12465@world.std.com> Well I'm back from the flea... I did sell two of the COCOs and a few other odds and ends. The bulk of the pile remains as "it wasn't VGA or PC". Of the more interesting things I'd like to sell for nominal fee or trade: TRS80 docs and tapes... moto6800D1 pristine with docs MDS800 mostly complete The s100 memory cards, s100 crate, Anadex DP-8000 printer working and docs. In the process I aquired a real fine PDP11/23+ with RX02. It's excess and has V4 and v5 DOCs and install kits along with apparently two sets of X11 diags. Also there is a MiniMINC LSI11 kit with mincBaisc. There is an unopened (shrink intact) box of 8" media. The 11/23 is has 512k of ram 4 serial ports and a RX02 disk system that looks operational. This is also excess... don't ask, call it a rescue. Anyone interested let me know as I'm trying to make room for a PDP-8/e/m/f! Allison From BigLouS at aol.com Sun Jun 15 21:35:33 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions Message-ID: <970615223529_-1529763573@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-12 22:38:21 EDT, marvin@rain.org (Marvin) wrote: > Back when the Atari 400 was introduced, I got hooked on Space Invaders. > I found the Atari and other Joysticks to be a complete waste when it > came to playing Space Invaders ..... Why didn't you use the Atari paddles? From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sun Jun 15 22:50:47 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: So what exactly is a Victor 9000??? Just another PC clone? Les From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 15 23:01:27 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions References: <970615223529_-1529763573@emout01.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33A4BA97.4F89@rain.org> BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-06-12 22:38:21 EDT, marvin@rain.org (Marvin) wrote: > > > Back when the Atari 400 was introduced, I got hooked on Space Invaders. > > I found the Atari and other Joysticks to be a complete waste when it > > came to playing Space Invaders ..... > > Why didn't you use the Atari paddles? 1) Didn't have a set, 2) didn't realize they would work :). From marcw at lightside.com Sun Jun 15 19:52:32 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: PONG Message-ID: <199706160411.VAA00362@covina.lightside.com> > > I don't know if I have any of the Pong advertisements or not, but I most > likely have something close. It is pretty easy to recognize as the > cabinet was about 27" or so wide, about 30" deep, and stood somewhere > around 6 feet high. Pong had a monitor?!? I didn't know that. I have Atari's Pong here which is just the console. First video game we ever got. I plan to pull it out of retirement for a 1970's party being planned. Hmm, I'd like to find a pic of that 6ft beast myself. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org IRC Nick: Senshi Channel: #dos http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html -- DOS Internet Tools From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 15 23:33:45 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Extra Stuff References: <33A4164C.397D@ndirect.co.uk> <33A49376.66B9@rain.org> Message-ID: <33A4C229.3D92@rain.org> This weekend was interesting for me also. I went up to the Santa Maria Amateur Radio Swapfest and found a few things. After I got back, I read a message where someone was looking for a VIC 20 modem, and of course I saw one in the box up there. I thought about picking it up, but decided against it since I think I already have one . I did run into some other interesting stuff (although nothing like Sams good fortune!!!) I picked up another TRS-80 Model 4 desktop unit with some docs, an Apple II Plus with 2 disk drives (no docs), and a Coco 2 (no docs or cables.) I really was hoping someone else would buy them and put them to good use, but since they were still available after everything was over ... Oh well, I still haven't put anything in the bathrooms yet :). I did run into a couple of interesting boards. The first is labeled "Digital Technology, Engineering Extension, Univ. of Wisconsin-Madison" and looks to be part of a digital trainer. It has 4 chips in sockets ( three 7400's and one 7405), six Red LED's, six SPDT switches, a pot, and a place where some sort of TO220 style transistor, voltage regulator or whatever goes, and a number of terminating resistors. It seems to have places where interconnect wire can be plugged in for interconnecting the LEDs, Switchs, and the 7400's (which are each arranged as two R-S flip flops.) The date on the approx. 5" x 7" circuit board is 2/76. If anyone has any further information on this board, I would be most interested! The second board is a plug-in Metric Systems Corp. MC00110 Logic Inverter board. What makes it interesting is that the circuits are all made of discrete components and the entire board seems to have the traces gold plated. If anyone needs the computers I picked up, let me know as those types are already in the collection. The possibility that someone else needs them is the real reason I picked them up. From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 15 23:40:28 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: PONG References: <199706160411.VAA00362@covina.lightside.com> Message-ID: <33A4C3BC.1FD5@rain.org> marcw@lightside.com wrote: > > > > > I don't know if I have any of the Pong advertisements or not, but I most > > likely have something close. It is pretty easy to recognize as the > > cabinet was about 27" or so wide, about 30" deep, and stood somewhere > > around 6 feet high. > > Pong had a monitor?!? I didn't know that. > I have Atari's Pong here which is just the console. > First video game we ever got. I plan to pull it out of retirement for > a 1970's party being planned. > > Hmm, I'd like to find a pic of that 6ft beast myself. > > Marc > Hmmm, I *assumed* the request was for the *first* Pong which was a coin operated game video game. It didn't occur to me that he might have meant the first home game machine which I think was *also* Pong! From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Jun 15 23:29:31 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Printers and Finds of the WeekFrom: Sam Ismail To: Classic Computer Discussion Message-ID: <33A4C12B.203A@goldrush.com> References: <199706150702.AAA14700@lists3.u.washington.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RE Printers... Gorilla Banana, Tandy DMP 100, Commodore 1525, etc. It was a standard printer mechanism by some manufacturer (I suspect Shikosha (sp)) All were 7 pin characters. I remember some early Commodore Printers (before the 1525) were Epson units (one based in the MX70?) I also remember, for the PETs, our school had a SWTP dot matrix printer. Pretty nifty little bugger, no fancy coverings, you got to see all the gears (printed on 4" wide roll paper as I recall) liked like an early ticker machine or something like that. They also had a Commodore 4023 and a Diablo 630 (heavy as heck and made quite a racket too). I have owned a couple curiosities such as the Commodore 1520 printer plotter (another model type that bore through many company brands) four little tiny pens. Made neat sounds when it was drawing text and lines. :) I still have my Citizen iDP560cd printer, prints on wide register tape (2.?? inches) in two colors (Black/Red) has a Commodore interface and all that. (nowadays you usually see that model printer -w/parallel interface- hooked up to merchant ATM units). Other now gone units MPS-801 and Star NP-10. Other (classic) printers I now have are a Riteman F+ (precursor to the ProWriter Jr.) it has a very short ribbon (something like 20") but a unique feed system (able to print on index cards and use the first line of a page...). Everything else is somewhat modern late model dot-matrix and ink jets. Oh, and a Commodore 8023 wide-carriage dot matrix for my PETs. ------------- RE: Sam Ismail Subject: Beat this haul... >Ok, the weekend's not even over, and here's how I did: [snip!} >Commodore 64, Commodore 64C (two of 'em, one seems to be this weird clone >since the plastic looks different from the other one and it has no >markings) It's probably an older 64 in that slimline case that was selling a few years back to make an older 64 more resemble a 64C. I recall the ads in Compute's Gazzette and RUN. *** light applause *** that certainly was a haul as well as a good little adventure! Thanks for sharing it with us. :) I know of a Salvation Army in Oakdale that has a small basket full of TI carts including some nice AtariSoft titles... ;) Next time when I get there (and if they are there and are cheap enough) I'll pick some up. --------- Now for my haul (which was today, Sunday). At the Flea Market: 2 Atari Power Packs (15.3va and 31 va) $3.00 now all I need is some Atari DOS and utility disks (HINT! HINT!) 1 Commodore 64C power supply $1.00 a couple printer switchboxes $1.00 ea. Toshiba external SCSI CD-ROM drive (seems to be partially working) $3.00 14.4 Modem $2.00 External Amiga Drive $1.00 At the Thrift Store: Commodore SuperPET (Gosh was I lucky) $20.00 (w/Wordpro plus quick referencebooklet, PET to IEEE-488 cable, power cord and "the Manager" dongle still attached) Commodore 4040 Dual Drive $5.00 3 IEEE-488 cables $2.00 each The SuperPET isn't responding, but still worth it, (I cracked it open to see the guts, there are two daughterboards connected to the motherboard the topmost seems to be the RAM (which makes the computer 96k), and I assume below that is the 6809 co-processor and RS-232 driver. Now I have to hunt down more information... :) Four toggle switches peek out on the side which allow for the storing of the language you wish to use, (setting it to ROM mode did not seem to change the situation) Have yet to test the 4040, I hope it is functional. So far everything from the Flea Market seems to work (I have yet to test the 64 supply though). Nice day, though I think my checkbook is feeling a little thin... Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 16 00:10:50 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > So what exactly is a Victor 9000??? > Just another PC clone? Not just another clone. It's actually a very nice system. But I'm no expert, and I haven't had enough time to play with it yet. I'll allow the resident Victor 9000 experts to fill you in on the details. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 16 01:21:43 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: PONG References: <199706160411.VAA00362@covina.lightside.com> <33A4C3BC.1FD5@rain.org> Message-ID: <33A4DB77.4142@ndirect.co.uk> Marvin wrote: > > marcw@lightside.com wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't know if I have any of the Pong advertisements or not, but I most > > > likely have something close. It is pretty easy to recognize as the > > > cabinet was about 27" or so wide, about 30" deep, and stood somewhere > > > around 6 feet high. > > > > Pong had a monitor?!? I didn't know that. > > I have Atari's Pong here which is just the console. > > First video game we ever got. I plan to pull it out of retirement for > > a 1970's party being planned. > > > > Hmm, I'd like to find a pic of that 6ft beast myself. > > > > Marc > > > > Hmmm, I *assumed* the request was for the *first* Pong which was a coin > operated game video game. It didn't occur to me that he might have > meant the first home game machine which I think was *also* Pong! Aaaah! That's more like it! What I meant was the home video game console. Now back to the original question: does anybody know where I can get a photo of it or at least a description). Thank you enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 16 01:57:18 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Printers and Finds of the WeekFrom: Sam Ismail To: Classic Computer Discussion References: <33A4C12B.203A@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <33A4E3CE.44EE@rain.org> Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > > At the Thrift Store: > Commodore SuperPET (Gosh was I lucky) $20.00 (w/Wordpro plus quick > referencebooklet, PET to IEEE-488 cable, power cord and "the Manager" > dongle still attached) I am not familiar with the "SuperPET"; where does it fit in with the rest of the Commodore line? It sounds like you also had a pretty good "haul" this weekend! From pcoad at crl.com Mon Jun 16 04:26:30 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Weekend Acquisitions III In-Reply-To: <33A211A6.5A94@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: This is a little long and likely boring. You have been warned! I had a reasonably good weekend as well. Not as good as some, but I am pretty happy with the results. Here is how it went: Friday morning I visit one of the local thrifts and pick up some old books: Bound Unix manuals from Bell Labs. First edition K&R Early 80's Intel product catalog. Xenix text processing book. I saw a VIC-20 with tape drive, tapes, and a bunch of cartridges. Unfortunately I had only $3 in my pocket. (Don't try this at home kids, I am a trained professional.) I left with only the books. Friday afternoon I plan to leave work at 3:30, but don't get out until 6:30. Go to bank. Get money. Go back to thrift. The VIC was still there. Bought the box of stuff for $5. This included VIC-20 (still untested), CN2 (my 3rd!), 3K, 8K, and 16K memory carts, super expander cart (with manual), Forth Cart with box and manual, programmer's aid cart, machine language monitor cart, 7 cart games, and a few cassette games. Saturday morning Went to the electronics/computer/junk sale. Too much PC and Mac stuff, and not enough junk. Met Sam Ismail. Looked around at everything. Sam left for greener pastures. Bought two Sun keyboards (type 3 and type 4). (One day I'll have a full working Sun if I have to buy it one chip at a time.) At this point I had seen all there was to be seen, and I still had an hour to kill so I went off to visit a few other places and picked up another K&R, a C Programmer's Handbook (AT&T Bell Labs, can you tell I have a thing for them and C/Unix?), and a few loose Atari 400/800 carts (BASIC, logo, chess, and something else) for $1. Saturday noon Went back to the sale and met up with Uncle Roger and his girlfriend. We had an excellent lunch. Swapped a few stories. Went home and explained to my wife why I NEED 2 more Sun keyboards. Saturday afternoon Picked up 7 boxes of old software. This was from the same guy that gave George Lin that load of hardware a few weeks back. I haven't had time to go through all of it in detail, but there are several early Microsoft packages (including windows v2 and possibly v1), PC-DOS 1.1, DBase III, WordStar, PC and PC jr. technical manuals, 7 or 8 Borland packages, and a load of other stuff. Several things are still in shrink wrap. Most of this stuff will be taking up room that I would rather devote to more interesting (to me) stuff. Once I have a complete list I will be offering most for sale or trade. Anyone collect PC jr. stuff? On the way home I visited bubble wrap mecca. Greg Mast tipped me off on this place. Thanks Greg! I filled up the rest of my car with bubble wrap and headed home. Add to this 2 graduation parties and making up to my wife for being gone most of Saturday, and this was a pretty busy weekend. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From ccm at sentex.net Mon Jun 16 08:59:16 1997 From: ccm at sentex.net (Commercial Computing Museum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <199706161359.JAA04622@granite.sentex.net> I'm so excited...this is my first post to this great group. In 1981 I left NCR to work for Victor (Canada) Limited to organize a tech support team and assist a calculator saleforce become successful sellers of microcomputers - namely the Victor 9000 or Vickie as it came to be called. The Victor 9000 came out in 1982. It was produced by a company called Sirius Computer Corp. Mr. Chuck Peddle designed the 9000 and ran Sirius. Peddle had preivously worked for Commodre and designed the PET. By golly, before that he worked on the 6502 chip (the CPU in early Apples). Now here's more corporate geneology stuff. Victor used to be called Victor Comptometer. It was owned by the Victor family of Chicago and was bought-out by the Kidde Corp a conglomerate. Kidde also invested in Sirius. The 9000 was a machine designed for people. It came with a non-glare monochrome monitor on a tilt and swivel-base - hey we're talking 1981 here! It had an ergonomically-considerate keyboard, small footprint, and oh yah, it had a voice chip on the motherboard. The last step of POST (power-on, self-test) was the 9000 telling you "Hello, I am a Victor 9000." I get a kick out of listening to the Comdex 1990 keynote speech by Bill Gates (the one when he announced the Information at Your Fingertips campaign), because he declared that someday computers will have voice-digitization on the motherboard. Did you hear that Chuck? Unforunately the 9000 didn't last long. Sirius had grand plans to become the next IBM, they absorbed Victor, sold lots of machines (a single order of 4000 to Ford Motors), then promptly went bankrupt. Victor Canada was closed down in the mid-1980s. The 9000 came in two cases. Early (first) models housed the processor in a rectangular case. Later models used a niffty angular case. I don't know if voice digitization made it into the angular case. My 9000 occupies a place in my subcollection of Unique Systems - systems that were, well let's say they were ahead of their times. Other machines here include the Lisa, Workslate, Hyperion, Star, Apple III, DG/One, etc. Hope this helps you, I know it sure was fun for me. Yours in good faith. >Hello! > >I have a Victor 9000, cheap to good home. The technological cutting edge in >1979, it has a keyboard that includes a 1/2 and 1/4 key, a wonderfully >massive dot matrix printer, and a version of Wordstar that is truly hideous. > Plus other software. The thing seems to run on DOS 1.25. It has been in my >garage for years, and I hate to see such a monstrosity go without victims. > Is there someone out there who would like to have it? Please respond to >MoeHoward1@aol.com or David.Stevens@pgw.com. > > From idavis at comland.com Mon Jun 16 09:46:14 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: PONG Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970616144614.008ca0d8@mail.comland.com > At 06:21 AM 6/16/97 +0000, you wrote: >Aaaah! That's more like it! What I meant was the home video game >console. Now back to the original question: does anybody know where I >can get a photo of it or at least a description). Thank you > >enrico Enrico, Try this site. It has a picture of an atari pong machine: http://members.aol.com/cvendel/vaporware.html Hope this helps. Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, idavis@comland.com | check out the Classic Computer Rescue List - indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html From starling at umr.edu Mon Jun 16 11:44:55 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: from "Brett" at Jun 13, 97 09:34:04 pm Message-ID: <199706161644.LAA06195@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > So - does any body know where I can find a way into Xenix? Xenix is now owned by the SCO group, I believe. There is a Usenet newsgroup dedicated to Xenix called comp.unix.xenix.sco. I don't think that my school carries the comp.unix hierarchy, but it's easily accessable via dejanews (www.dejanews.com) or altavista if your ISP doesn't carry it either. There might be some old Xenix hacks hanging around in there... or you may be able to get someone to send you some bootable media that'll get you to a root shell. > Are there any archives of CERT Advisories on glaring holes I can > worm my way into editing the passwd file or something? I realize > I could run CRACK but since that isn't what I normally do for FUN > I was hoping the mass intellegence and huge experience in this list > might be able to help 8-) Mmmm... would be kinda fun. Too bad you can't plug 'er into a network and let me have a hack at her. Already having an account would definately help. But if you want, you could e-mail me the passwd file and I'd set up an idle machine to cracking it and see what turns up. It'd be worth a shot... However... I think that getting bootable media (tape or floppy) is going to be your best bet... or else try to find the original owner/user. chris starling starling@umr.edu From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 16 11:39:53 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Weekend Acquisitions III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > bank. Get money. Go back to thrift. The VIC was still there. > Bought the box of stuff for $5. This included VIC-20 (still untested), > CN2 (my 3rd!), 3K, 8K, and 16K memory carts, super expander cart (with > manual), Forth Cart with box and manual, programmer's aid cart, machine > language monitor cart, 7 cart games, and a few cassette games. Nice! > On the way home I visited bubble wrap mecca. Greg Mast tipped me off > on this place. Thanks Greg! I filled up the rest of my car with bubble > wrap and headed home. How much is this stuff at the place you went to? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 16 11:46:31 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <199706161359.JAA04622@granite.sentex.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Commercial Computing Museum wrote: > The Victor 9000 came out in 1982. It was produced by a company called Sirius > Computer Corp. Mr. Chuck Peddle designed the 9000 and ran Sirius. Peddle had > preivously worked for Commodre and designed the PET. By golly, before that > he worked on the 6502 chip (the CPU in early Apples). > > Now here's more corporate geneology stuff. Victor used to be called Victor > Comptometer. It was owned by the Victor family of Chicago and was bought-out > by the Kidde Corp a conglomerate. Kidde also invested in Sirius. As an aside, Sirius was based out of Scott's Valley, California, which is just ten minutes or so north of Santa Cruz. It was located there so that Mr. Peddle could attract the engineers who lived in Santa Cruz and drove over the hill each day into San Jose to work would defect to him. > The 9000 was a machine designed for people. It came with a non-glare > monochrome monitor on a tilt and swivel-base - hey we're talking 1981 here! > It had an ergonomically-considerate keyboard, small footprint, and oh yah, > it had a voice chip on the motherboard. The last step of POST (power-on, > self-test) was the 9000 telling you "Hello, I am a Victor 9000." I get a > kick out of listening to the Comdex 1990 keynote speech by Bill Gates (the > one when he announced the Information at Your Fingertips campaign), because > he declared that someday computers will have voice-digitization on the > motherboard. Did you hear that Chuck? Hmmm, mine doesn't greet me. Must have a bad attitude (or a bad synthesizer chip). > The 9000 came in two cases. Early (first) models housed the processor in a > rectangular case. Later models used a niffty angular case. I don't know if > voice digitization made it into the angular case. I have the rectangular case, and as discussed previous, I saw the angular cased variety at a swap meet but didn't know what to make of it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com Mon Jun 16 12:16:00 1997 From: FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com (Faiaz, Michael C. HSD) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: HELP! Message-ID: Does anyone have any info on where I can find accessories and parts for my old PC8500 (NEC) laptop? Thanks Mike From clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com Mon Jun 16 12:51:56 1997 From: clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com (clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8530 (was re: Terak 8510a) Message-ID: <97Jun16.110613pdt.32262@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> (Embedded image moved ard12 @ eng.cam.ac.uk to file: 06/15/97 02:14 PM PIC24988.PCX) Please respond to classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: classiccmp @ u.washington.edu cc: (bcc: Clark Geisler/NORTEL-NSM) Subject: Re: Terak 8510a >Talking of obscure PDP11-related machines, has anyone else ever come >across the Tektronix 8530 etc systems. These machines were sold as micro >development systems and lived in 2 racks - one contained an LSI11 (or >PDP11/23) CPU card + RAM + disk controller + I/O + drives (either a couple >of 8" floppies or one floppy and a Micropolis 1200 hard disk), while the >other contained the development options -- in-circuit emulators, logic >analyser, EPROM programmer, etc. They ran either a much-hacked RT11 or a >much-hacked Unix. This sounds a lot like a system I saw installed new at my alma mater (University of British Columbia) my graduation year (1983). It was a Tektronix development system with LSI11 CPU running UNIX. There were a number of terminals attached, and it was used to teach computer process control concepts to non-computer eng. types. I remember seeing various pumps and tanks connected to it. I never used it seriously myself, but just logged on to play with it: this was the first Unix system I had seen. I wasn't very impressed with it at the time: whenever I used the 'man' program, the pages would just scroll up the screen (no pause), then it cleared the screen, leaving the prompt. Clark Geisler 'just have an Amiga 1000 and a VAX 11/730' -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 2427 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970616/d724f8eb/attachment.obj From clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com Mon Jun 16 12:55:11 1997 From: clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com (clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <97Jun16.110951pdt.32262@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> (Embedded image moved dastar @ crl.com to file: 06/15/97 03:49 PM PIC18303.PCX) Please respond to classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: classiccmp @ u.washington.edu cc: (bcc: Clark Geisler/NORTEL-NSM) Subject: Re: Victor 9000 Sam wrote: >1979? The Victor 9000 came out in 1985/86 according to previous >discussions. Indeed it would have been the "technological cutting edge" >in 1979, and for quite some time as it would have pre-dated the computer >it was supposed to be semi-compatible with. I recall seeing Victor 9000's newly installed in a computer lab at the University of British Columbia in 1983. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 2427 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970616/7b1c2e0c/attachment.obj From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 16 13:30:03 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: PONG Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205300DF5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Pong is not the first video game. Nolan Bushnell, who later founded Atari, did Pong. Several years before Pong, Nolan created a more sophisticated game called Computer Space, built by Nutting and Associates. Computer Space was the first arcade video game. Atari home Pong was the first home video game. Magnavox Odyssey1 was the first home video game system. Trust me, I own all of them. Kai > -----Original Message----- > From: e.tedeschi [SMTP:e.tedeschi@ndirect.co.uk] > Sent: Sunday, June 15, 1997 9:20 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: PONG > > Doeas anybody have a photograph of "PONG" the first video game ever? > Or > where I can find one? I have never seen it and I don't know how it > looks > like so I will not be able to recognize it if I ever bump into one. > > Thanks > > enrico > -- > ================================================================ > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > website > ================================================================ > visit Brighton: > From BigLouS at aol.com Mon Jun 16 15:49:17 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Aim65's for sale Message-ID: <970616164425_-1161253946@emout07.mail.aol.com> Thought this may be of interest to some of you. His email address should be Mikeooo1@aol.com Lou Subj: Aim 65 single board micro Date: 97-06-16 16:20:52 EDT From: Mikeooo1 I have several Aim 65's in new condition,a hot item in the 80's it was the precursor to the pc.Features a single board microprocessor complete with display,printer,keyboard,power supply,with a 6502 cpu.Fully functional but also a nice collector's item. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 16 16:13:48 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Weekend Acquisitions III Message-ID: <199706162113.AA08121@world.std.com> > First edition K&R I ahve stapled version with bell labs technical report #31 "the C programming language" by D.M. Richie, and M.E. lesk. october 1975 it has hand scribbles re: tiny C as it was part of communication with Jon Gibson. Got it back around 79 while visiting Bell labs homdel on a business call. No offers acepted as it's my working copy for C and my bible! Allison From spc at armigeron.com Mon Jun 16 16:34:21 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Beat this haul... In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 14, 97 08:08:37 pm Message-ID: <199706162134.RAA27143@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Sam Ismail once stated: > > Data General One (Model 2) laptop. Two questions: How did the model 2 > differ from the model 1? And I didn't get a power supply with this, but > was told by a couple people all it requires is a special three-prong > power cord. The receptacle is an oval with three conductors. Anyone > know about this? - $15 > I have a Data General One laptop (I think the Model 1 - or at least the first year they came out). The power supply is a brick that plugs into the wall using a standard computer power cable (that comes with PCs now a days) and the other end is a two wire cord that plugs into a recepticle in the back of the computer (I think my is two wires, but it's at home right now). I got the unit several years ago (possibly 92 or 93) with a flaky LCD connection. When the ribbon cable (from the mother board to the LCD screen) finally broke, I was able to get a replacement from Data General itself (!) for about $20. You might want to try contacting them directly for more information about the DG1. -spc (It's still in use ... ) From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 16 17:16:15 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: An Apple Weekend! Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053192FD@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Well, not a bad weekend for Apple stuff. I visited two swap meets and a dozen thrifts, and came up with the following stuff (the weird thing is, all of my traditional good spots were dry, and all the dry ones had good stuff -- and not only that, these systems weren't complete but instead all the parts came from different locations!) - An Apple II - An Apple II with RAM expansion card, Grappler card, 80 column card - An Apple /// with ProFile hard disk, second floppy and Monitor /// - An Apple ///+ with ProFile hard disk, second floppy, serial card, and a "///+//" Apple II emulation card (!) - Another ProFile hard disk (that makes 3!) - Apple /// JOYSTICK !!!!! (egads) - Two Apple II series joysticks - Apple II series game paddle set Plus: - Three Central Point Copy II Option Boards (copy Apple, Mac, TRS-80, CP/M formats on PCs) - Two 8-bit Plus Hard Card 20's - Silicon Valley ADP50 (run IDE hard drives in an IBM PC) Kai From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 16 17:28:49 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: available for sale or trade Message-ID: <199706162228.AA02360@world.std.com> I found these while looking for the docs for my SWTP CT1024 terminal board that I'm resurecting (it works) These are available for sale or trade: SWTP PR40 schematic and wiring drawing (D size sheet two sided) SWTP MP-S serial interface (SS50, 6800) assembly, schematic and board views. Ohiso Scientific sams photofact service manual complete for: Superboard-II Model C1P Model C1PMF Allison From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 16 09:18:09 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: osborne 1 serial number In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to Sam and his help, I've just aquired my own Osborne 1! It certainly is a nice system..and it's easy to understand the improvements made between it and the Executive, especially with them sitting side by side. I can't believe there is absolutely no ventilation in that case, other than the little screens on the front panel! I must say that CP/M on the Osborne is one of the nicer CP/M flavors I've seen yet, especially CP/M 3 on the Executive. >Hey, my Osborne 1 has serial number A01284. Can anyone beat that? This one is A02518 Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Mon Jun 16 18:18:53 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Aquarius/Aquarius II Message-ID: <970616181853.20201c7d@wartburg.edu> Was the Aquarius II compatible with the old Aquarius programs? Can anyone give me a lead on an Aquarius II? -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 16 09:38:41 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Aquarius/Aquarius II In-Reply-To: <970616181853.20201c7d@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: On 16-Jun-97, Andy Brobston wrote: >Was the Aquarius II compatible with the old Aquarius programs? >Can anyone give me a lead on an Aquarius II? In all my searching for info on the Aquarius, I've yet to find a reference to an Aquarius II. Where did you find this? Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers From pcoad at crl.com Mon Jun 16 17:11:32 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Weekend Acquisitions III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > > > bank. Get money. Go back to thrift. The VIC was still there. > > Bought the box of stuff for $5. This included VIC-20 (still untested), > > CN2 (my 3rd!), 3K, 8K, and 16K memory carts, super expander cart (with > > manual), Forth Cart with box and manual, programmer's aid cart, machine > > language monitor cart, 7 cart games, and a few cassette games. > > Nice! I did end up with some duplicates. VIC stuff seems to be pretty common. Before this year I never owned any Commodore stuff. The VIC is a pretty nice machine, given its limitations. I forgot to mention that the box also had two "motherboards". These plug into the cartridge slot and have 3 cartridge connectors which allow multiple carts to be plugged in at the same time. Pretty cool stuff. > > > On the way home I visited bubble wrap mecca. Greg Mast tipped me off > > on this place. Thanks Greg! I filled up the rest of my car with bubble > > wrap and headed home. > > How much is this stuff at the place you went to? > Free. This place is the dumping area behind a local company. The place had a bunch of bubble wrap. I couldn't estimate the square yards, but there was way more than would have fit in my car if I didn't have 7 boxes of stuff in it. There were also 50-100 cardboard boxes and several cubic feet of foam. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jun 16 19:45:30 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970616175007.3fff15bc@ricochet.net> At 03:49 PM 6/15/97 -0700, you wrote: >1979? The Victor 9000 came out in 1985/86 according to previous >discussions. Indeed it would have been the "technological cutting edge" >in 1979, and for quite some time as it would have pre-dated the computer >it was supposed to be semi-compatible with. My (admittedly faulty) memory puts the Victor 9000 pre-IBM. I remember my parents considering purchasing one, and being horrified at the specs on the IBM PC when it came out. I couldn't understand why anyone would buy one when they could have the Victor 9000 instead. Maybe I should check some of the docs I've got and see what they say. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jun 16 19:45:45 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970616175024.3fff0824@ricochet.net> At 11:50 PM 6/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >So what exactly is a Victor 9000??? >Just another PC clone? Not a clone, but similar. Max RAM was 768K, came with a Floppy Drive as standard (IIRC). Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drives (as the early Mac's did as well.) Ran an early version of MS-DOS, I think. And, IIRC, it pre-dated the IBM PC. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 16 23:00:51 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Weekend Acquisitions III References: Message-ID: <33A60BF3.228D@unix.aardvarkol.com> Paul E Coad wrote: > nice machine, given its limitations. I forgot to mention that the box > also had two "motherboards". These plug into the cartridge slot and > have 3 cartridge connectors which allow multiple carts to be plugged in > at the same time. Pretty cool stuff. It sounds like you're referring to the Cardco 'Cardboard/3s' expansion interface. Does it have a reset button and a bank of seven switches on it? I have one, in the box with the manual. It also has CB/3S along the outermost edge on the bottom side of the circuit card. Nifty little gadget, as it would even allow me to use the 'Programmers Aid Cartridge' with the 16k memory expansion. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and classic computer collector From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 16 19:36:18 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: osborne 1 serial number In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >Hey, my Osborne 1 has serial number A01284. Can anyone beat that? > > This one is A02518 They came from the same lot. They're probably siblings, maybe having come from the same batch at the Osborne factory! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 16 19:37:33 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Aquarius/Aquarius II In-Reply-To: <970616181853.20201c7d@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Andy Brobston wrote: > Was the Aquarius II compatible with the old Aquarius programs? > > Can anyone give me a lead on an Aquarius II? Never heard of such a beast, and it would have been futile to attempt to market an Aquarius II when the first one didn't do so hot. Perhaps you are referring to the Radofin Aquarius? If not, I want to know what you do, and I want to know it NOW! ;) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Mon Jun 16 20:34:37 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Aquarius/Aquarius II Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970616213426.0068d36c@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 12:37 AM 6/17/97 +0000, you wrote: >On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Andy Brobston wrote: > >> Was the Aquarius II compatible with the old Aquarius programs? >> >> Can anyone give me a lead on an Aquarius II? > >Never heard of such a beast, and it would have been futile to attempt to >market an Aquarius II when the first one didn't do so hot. Perhaps you >are referring to the Radofin Aquarius? If not, I want to know what you >do, and I want to know it NOW! ;) > >Sam Go to: http://www.webcom.com/~makingit/bluesky/aquarius.html#aquarius2 http://www.webcom.com/~makingit/bluesky/tech/aquarius_tech.html "Confident in their system, Radofin's president, Lawrence M. Scott, Jr., announced that they would continue to sell Aquarius through a new distributor, and would release Aquarius II in March of 1984 and Aquarius III in July. None of this happened. " James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jun 17 00:01:55 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:54 2005 Subject: Aquarius/Aquarius II References: <3.0.32.19970616213426.0068d36c@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <33A61A43.4DC5@unix.aardvarkol.com> James Carter wrote: > Go to: > http://www.webcom.com/~makingit/bluesky/aquarius.html#aquarius2 > http://www.webcom.com/~makingit/bluesky/tech/aquarius_tech.html WOW...there's some interesting stuff on there! I wonder if the the full expansion chasis ever got off the drawing board? Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of classic microcomputers From pcoad at crl.com Mon Jun 16 20:46:52 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Weekend Acquisitions III In-Reply-To: <33A60BF3.228D@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Paul E Coad wrote: > > > nice machine, given its limitations. I forgot to mention that the box > > also had two "motherboards". These plug into the cartridge slot and > > have 3 cartridge connectors which allow multiple carts to be plugged in > > at the same time. Pretty cool stuff. > > It sounds like you're referring to the Cardco 'Cardboard/3s' expansion > interface. Does it have a reset button and a bank of seven switches on > it? I have one, in the box with the manual. It also has CB/3S along > the outermost edge on the bottom side of the circuit card. Nifty little > gadget, as it would even allow me to use the 'Programmers Aid Cartridge' > with the 16k memory expansion. > One has 3 slots and a fuse and is marked as 'Cardboard/3'. It must be a cheaper model than the 3s. The other one (made by PTI) has 3 slots, 3 slide switches, and a fuse. I neither one has a reset button. I can see That the one with the switches should allow selection of which cartridge to use, but it is not clear to me how the Cardboard/3 is supposed to work. There must be some real voodoo needed to get some sets of carts to work togther. Do you have any information about the Cardboard/3? Thanks, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Mon Jun 16 21:34:11 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Aquarius/Aquarius II Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970616223357.00689a9c@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 737 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970616/bb5f7111/attachment.bin From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 16 22:44:41 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <199706170344.AA11105@world.std.com> > Not a clone, but similar. Max RAM was 768K, came with a Floppy Drive as > standard (IIRC). Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drive > (as the early Mac's did as well.) Ran an early version of MS-DOS, I think > > And, IIRC, it pre-dated the IBM PC. Ok, some herstory. There were many machines that ran CP/M-86 before in IBM PC, one in particular was the Seattle Computer co, running Q-dos which after a deal with MS would be come MSDOS-1.0 aka PCdos to run on the first PC. I was running a 8086 system in 1980 that clearly blow the doors off a PC. It was 8086 not 8088 at 5.0mhz and 16bit wide memory using standard multibuss cards. By late 81 that machine was 8mhz, and 82 brought a copy of PC dos to it. Early MSdos could be configured like CP/M. The PC was slow, clunky, closed and expensive! By time the XT arrived still slow, clunky and expensive there are several S100 and other systems that were very fast 6/8/10 mhz 8088 or 8086 systems. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Tue Jun 17 01:45:14 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 85 References: <199706160702.AAA10040@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33A6327A.31FD@goldrush.com> RE: Marvin >Subject: Re: Printers and Finds of the Week >I am not familiar with the "SuperPET"; where does it fit in with the >rest of the Commodore line? It sounds like you also had a pretty good >"haul" this weekend! The SuperPET was developed by Waterloo University in Ontario, Canada and was released by Commodore sometime around 1980/81. I read a press release where the CBM 8096 (a close pre-cursor to the SuperPET) and VIC-20 were being introduced. It was also referred to as the Commodore SP9000 and Micro-Mainframe. The SuperPET was (I'm pretty sure) the last of the PET/CBM series. After that, in 1982, almost the entire Commodore line was re-vamped with: the Ultimax, C-64, B-128 series, and P-128/P-500 models. What the "PET Personal Computer Guide" Says about the SuperPET: It was designed around the CBM 8032 but boasted a 64k bank-switched RAM expansion and a 6809 co-processor which could emulate a 16 bit computer. In order to be truly compatible with IBM the OS had been retooled to use standard ASCII throughout, it also has a true RS-232 port. It has a 'Highly flexible terminal mode,' 'highly advanced text editor,' and 'run time monitor.' Among its more remarkable features is its ability to trace and repair most errors without losing the current program or its variables. Another virtue is its ability to send any program or data to another computer at any time in any language. The standard languages are IBM-compatible APL (including a complete APL character set), Waterloo BASIC, COBOL, FORTRAN, and Pascal. All languages are stored on disk (which I don't have any of *sigh*) until used. And at the printing of the book the languages worked as interpreters. Waterloo planned to have compiled versions available for the SuperPET in the future. Another language is included is 6809 assembly language. SuperPET comes with an assembler, linker, and loader. -------------------------------- Many of the features of the SuperPET can be seen in later Commodore units such as the B-128 and C-128 series (bank switched memory co-processors, etc.) Browsing the Web I have found some mentions of them, but many were no more than that. So far it seems one or two may have more than just the unit. I hope to get email soon from one person I wrote for info to. From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 01:39:36 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: A couple things: First, if you are an Atari fan, or not, either way, go check out: http://members.aol.com/cvendel/vaporware.html An EXCELLENT page with lots of photos of unreleased Atari prototypes. Great history. A great site. On this site was mention of the STacy laptop, an Atari ST laptop (presumably). Anyone have or know anything about these? Sounds interesting, and I vaguely remember hearing about it years ago. Also, the Aquarius prototype photos on: http://www.webcom.com/~makingit/bluesky/aquarius.html#aquarius2 are startling! That would have been a most awesome computer! I'm biased since I grew up on the Aquarius. But man, what a nice classic that would've made. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 01:41:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: DOes anyone have a computer which uses the EBCDIC character set, rather than ASCII (did I get the acronym right? what does it stand for anyway)? Just curious. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 01:45:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Exidy disk drive chassis Message-ID: Meant to mention this earlier, but over the weekend I also picked up an Exidy (Sorcerer) dual disk drive chassis (no drives, just the power supply circuitry) for a dollar. I was amazed to find it. I know little to nothing about this system, although thanks to Larry Anderson I have one that is totally hacked up with a funky power-supply that replaced the original (sticking about 2 inches out the back with wierd cords I have no idea how to connect) and some interesting mods inside which seem an attempt to double its memory. Any insights on this system? It's fairly obscure. I was told Exidy used standard PC-type full-height 5.25 drives. Anyone know more about this? Or perhaps know where I can get an interface card for the beast? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marcw at lightside.com Mon Jun 16 21:28:41 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: PONG Message-ID: <199706170822.BAA06094@covina.lightside.com> > Pong is not the first video game. Nolan Bushnell, who later founded > Atari, did Pong. Several years before Pong, Nolan created a more > sophisticated game called Computer Space, built by Nutting and > Associates. > > Computer Space was the first arcade video game. > Atari home Pong was the first home video game. > Magnavox Odyssey1 was the first home video game system. > > Trust me, I own all of them. > > Kai > I just pulled out the Pong and manual. I suppose I don't have the original pong anyway. Super Pong, Model No. C-140 (1976). It has four different pong games (labelled differently in the manual and on the box). So when did the original Pong make its appearance. Marc From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Tue Jun 17 03:50:01 1997 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <199706170854.BAA26009@mx2.u.washington.edu> The Victor 9000 sounds like a machine sold in Australia and perhaps Europe as the ACT Sirius and coexisted for a time with the IBM PC because of a shortage of the latter. Chuck Peddle (spelling?) was the originator of the Sirius. The ACT company I think was British and later changed it's name to Apricot. Or am I completely on the wrong track? ---------- > From: Uncle Roger > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Victor 9000 > Date: Tuesday, June 17, 1997 10:45 AM > > At 11:50 PM 6/15/97 -0400, you wrote: > >So what exactly is a Victor 9000??? > >Just another PC clone? > > Not a clone, but similar. Max RAM was 768K, came with a Floppy Drive as > standard (IIRC). Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drives > (as the early Mac's did as well.) Ran an early version of MS-DOS, I think. > From bwit at pobox.com Tue Jun 17 05:30:41 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: <01BC7AE8.59E34840@ppp-151-164-41-213.rcsntx.swbell.net> If memory serves: EBCDIC = Extended Binary Coded Decimal Interchange Code IBM mainframes (360, 370, etc) are the only machines I've seen that used it. bw ---------- From: Sam Ismail Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 1997 2:41 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: EBCDIC DOes anyone have a computer which uses the EBCDIC character set, rather than ASCII (did I get the acronym right? what does it stand for anyway)? Just curious. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1642 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970617/0a24acb0/attachment.bin From David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov Tue Jun 17 07:58:35 1997 From: David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov (David_A._Vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: <9705178665.AA866556953@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> > DOes anyone have a computer which uses the EBCDIC character set, rather than > ASCII (did I get the acronym right? what does it stand for anyway)? I've never heard of a microcomputer that used EBCDIC, but there are a lot of things of which I've never heard. It is used in IBM mainframes and minis. Here at HUD we have a Hitachi mainframe that emulates an IBM, and it uses EBCDIC internally. We have file transfer utilities that take care of translating into ASCII as necessary. What does it stand for? Gee, it's been a long time. Let's see. According to the "SAS Compantion for the MVS Environment," it stands for Extended Binary Coded Decimal Interchange Code. That sounds redundant, but that's IBM for you. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Tue Jun 17 07:32:51 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Good Old Days Message-ID: <199706171232.IAA06056@wincom.net> Sunday AM, while waiting for Windows 95 to boot on my trusty Hewitt-Rand 386-33, I found myself browsing through a copy of the June 1982 edition of Creative Computing. Editorial content included an evaluation of the Osborne I, an article on "Mass Storage Options" in which the writer encourages readers to forsake audio cassettes and advance to the 5 1/4" floppy drives, or even (gasp) one of the Winchester hard drives which will store five or even ten megs of data! (An advertisement on page 189 quotes $3339.00 for five megs capacity.) On page 116 Osmo A. Wiio, professor of communications, deplores the unreadability of computer documentation. Ads offer floppies for $ 1.90, 48K of ram for your Atari for $ 299.00, and on the inside rear cover a young looking William Shatner is flogging the Vic 20. "Under $ 300.00, the best computer value in the world today. The only computer you'll need for years to come." Well, Win95 is up on the 386, got to go. Cheers Charlie Fox From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jun 17 08:41:42 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: PONG In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205300DF5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <509128B4FDF@ifrsys.com> > Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:30:03 -0700 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Kai Kaltenbach > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: RE: PONG > Pong is not the first video game. Nolan Bushnell, who later founded > Atari, did Pong. Several years before Pong, Nolan created a more > sophisticated game called Computer Space, built by Nutting and ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ Whoa! Dude! You like, OWN one of these beasties? Like, YOW! The last time I saw one was in in 1975 (I think)! I remember the Sears store at the local shopping center had one, in RED metalflake. It sure looked out of place next to all of those E/M machines in vogue at the time. What's inside? I was told long ago that it was powered by an IMSAI machine in its base. Is this true? Is it still operational? BTW, this was the first video game ever to appear in a motion picture! It was used as a "futuristic" background prop in the film "Soylent Green", starring Charleton Heston. > Associates. > > Computer Space was the first arcade video game. > Atari home Pong was the first home video game. > Magnavox Odyssey1 was the first home video game system. > > Trust me, I own all of them. > > Kai > Jeff From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 17 09:57:37 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Good Old Days Message-ID: <199706171457.AA16594@world.std.com> > Sunday AM, while waiting for Windows 95 to boot on my trusty > Hewitt-Rand 386-33, I found myself browsing through a copy of the June 198 > edition of Creative Computing. Creative computing was always about 2-3 years behind or worse. > (gasp) one of the Winchester hard drives which will store five or even te > megs of data! (An advertisement on page 189 quotes $3339.00 for five megs nov/dec 1980 _s100 Microsystems_ MOrrow designs (thinker toys) DISCUS 26mb hard dive system_ $4995 (ithaca) Intersystems DPX-2a (z8002 16 bit cpu) basise machine $4795 Northstar* Horizon-2 (DD controller) z80 4 mhz 32k ram (assembled/tested) $2699 Allison From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jun 17 10:15:55 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <01IK69O6QOV690PL3X@cc.usu.edu> > I was running a 8086 system in 1980 that clearly blow the doors off a PC. > It was 8086 not 8088 at 5.0mhz and 16bit wide memory using standard > multibuss cards. By late 81 that machine was 8mhz, and 82 brought a copy of > PC dos to it. Early MSdos could be configured like CP/M. The PC was slow, > clunky, closed and expensive! By time the XT arrived still slow, clunky and > expensive there are several S100 and other systems that were very fast > 6/8/10 mhz 8088 or 8086 systems. I've been taking a look at Caldera's OpenDOS (aka Novell DOS 7, aka DR-DOS), and it still looks quite friendly to running on strange hardware. Other than a few references to our friend the A20 hack sprinkled throughout the non-BIOS (BIOS as in CBIOS or IBMBIO.SYS, not ROM BIOS) parts of a few modules, I've not run across any glaring PCness in the system. At first glance, it also looks like A20 stuff is set up by the BIOS initialization routine. In short, it should still be possible to configure DR-DOS for non-PC hardware. I can't speak for MS-DOS because sources aren't available... Of course, you will get no sympathy from the folks on the OpenDOS mailing lists if you talk about running DOS on non-PC hardware; they seem to be young enough to have never encountered the wide variety of machines that existed before the PC took over the world. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 17 11:36:35 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970616175024.3fff0824@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drives > (as the early Mac's did as well.) I beg to defer. The Apple II series used them as well. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 17 17:38:15 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: ; from "Alexios Chouchoulas" at Jun 17, 97 5:36 pm Message-ID: <199706171638.6430@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drives > > (as the early Mac's did as well.) > > I beg to defer. The Apple II series used them as well. Are you sure about that? The Disk ]['s I have on my Apples seem to be based on shugart mechanics, and have the standard motor control board in them, which doesn't seem to have been modified at all. In which case it would rotate at a constant 300rpm. > Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 17 12:42:39 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: from "Alexios Chouchoulas" at Jun 17, 97 05:36:35 pm Message-ID: <9706171642.AA11113@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 572 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970617/3ccf3599/attachment.ksh From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 17 11:55:37 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: PONG Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970617125523.006937a4@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 09:28 PM 6/16/97 PST8PDT, you wrote: > >So when did the original Pong make its appearance. > >Marc Atari's Pong the Coin-op in Nov '72 Atari's Home Pong Console in late '74 Other videogame milestones of note: Higinbotham's Oscilloscope Tennis in Oct '58 Russell's PDP-1 Spacewar in '62 Baer's Cable TV game system in '68 Nutting's Computer Space Coin-op in '71 Magnovox's Odyssey Console in May '72 James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 11:44:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count Message-ID: Out of curiosity, anyone know how many IMSAIs were produced? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 17 13:04:19 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 17, 97 09:44:55 am Message-ID: <9706171704.AA18136@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 330 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970617/2028e63d/attachment.ksh From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jun 17 12:13:43 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) Message-ID: <199706171711.MAA13432@challenge.sunflower.com> I have messed with a few apple/// drives, and yes, you can recalibrate them the same way. Excessivly noisey drives in my experience though is not always a bad floppy drive, but rather there is a C-clip retainer that keeps the rotor spindle at the correct height. This C clip is on top of the spindle just below the plastic disk that supports the bottom of the disk. When this clip is missing the flywheel at the bottom of the drives falls down about 1/4" and drags on the bottom of the case. If you don't see this clip, you can remove the drive and sit it on it's side and it may boot. At least then you know if the hunt for a compatable C clip is worth it. ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) > Date: Friday, June 13, 1997 11:29 AM > > On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > > I noticed that the cable that leads to the external floppy port has been > > badly crushed between the cast iron frame and the metal sheet that holds > > the motherboard, though. I'll have to remove it to see if any of the > > wires have been broken. :/ > > My internal floppy seems to be hosed. I can't boot any disks off of it. > Some bgin to boot but then go to error, others invoke this horrendous > recalibration that never ends. I assume the drive head is dirty and the > speed needs calibrating. I wonder if I can calibrate this drive like one > can the Disk ][? > > > I do need the system disks. I didn't get them with the machine. I wish > > there was some way to transfer them electronically, though... which is why > > I asked if there was a way of getting an Apple ][ to access a ///'s disks. > > I suppose the ///'s drive is double-sided, though. > > Doug, if you want I can e-mail NuFX (ShrinkIt) images to you. This would > be the quickest way for you to get them. You'd need an Apple // running > shrinkit of course. The disk format between the // and /// is identical. > > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue Jun 17 12:20:49 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Good Old Days In-Reply-To: <199706171232.IAA06056@wincom.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Charles E. Fox wrote: > Well, Win95 is up on the 386, got to go. > > Cheers > Charlie Fox OOOH, That's GOTTA hurt! You poor sadistic soul! Les From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue Jun 17 12:24:33 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: <9706171704.AA18136@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Out of curiosity, anyone know how many IMSAIs were produced? > > I would guess a few hundred thousand, if you include the > industrial and turn-key S-100 systems without a full front panel. > Many of the boxes were rebranded by various manufacturers (i.e. > the Cromemco box mentioned here a couple days ago.) > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > So what about the "replicas" everyones been talking about? As someone who will probably never find a "real" IMSAI, much less afford it if I did find it, I'd be interested in building a replica. Les From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 17 12:34:14 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Good Old Days Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20533AAEF@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Tigerdirect has 386-to-486 upgrade CPUs (for DX or SX) for $19.95 Kai > ---------- > From: Mr. Self Destruct > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 1997 10:20 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Good Old Days > > On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Charles E. Fox wrote: > > > Well, Win95 is up on the 386, got to go. > > > > Cheers > > Charlie Fox > > OOOH, That's GOTTA hurt! You poor sadistic soul! > > Les > > From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 17 12:38:41 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: <9706171704.AA18136@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Out of curiosity, anyone know how many IMSAIs were produced? > I would guess a few hundred thousand, if you include the > industrial and turn-key S-100 systems without a full front panel. > Many of the boxes were rebranded by various manufacturers (i.e. > the Cromemco box mentioned here a couple days ago.) When did Cromemco rebrand IMSAI machines? I was under the impression that Cromemco's boxes were all built by them, when they decided to branch out from building add-in video cards and such for everybody's S-100 system (as I recall, the TV Dazzler was the single most popular upgrade in the history of the S-100 bus). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 17 12:45:57 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Good Old Days In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Charles E. Fox wrote: > > Well, Win95 is up on the 386, got to go. > > OOOH, That's GOTTA hurt! You poor sadistic soul! I think you mean "masochistic", unless you're refering to the pain being inflicted on the '386 -- and '386 CPUs do like to suffer. When my little Everex notebook is allowed to boot Win95 (I left less than a quarter of the disk to that when I installed Linux) the startup sound is Wednesday Addams from the second movie -- "Be afraid. Be very afraid." (When it shuts down, it's a bit from the first movie -"Are they dead?" "Does it matter?") -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 12:36:41 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drives > > (as the early Mac's did as well.) > > I beg to defer. The Apple II series used them as well. I don't know where you got that information from, but I've never known that to be the case. All apple drives ran at a static 300rpm or else they didn't work. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From william at ans.net Tue Jun 17 13:05:02 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <9705178665.AA866556953@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> Message-ID: <199706171805.AB09469@interlock.ans.net> > > DOes anyone have a computer which uses the EBCDIC character set, rather than > > ASCII (did I get the acronym right? what does it stand for anyway)? > > I've never heard of a microcomputer that used EBCDIC, What did that original IBM personal computer disaster (5100) use? William Donzelli william@ans.net From zmerch at northernway.net Tue Jun 17 13:37:12 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <199706171805.AB09469@interlock.ans.net> References: <9705178665.AA866556953@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970617143712.009e6740@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, William Donzelli said: >> > DOes anyone have a computer which uses the EBCDIC character set, rather than >> > ASCII (did I get the acronym right? what does it stand for anyway)? >> >> I've never heard of a microcomputer that used EBCDIC, > >What did that original IBM personal computer disaster (5100) use? AFAIK, the "disaster" used ASCII as well, but IIRC IBM wanted to make APL a household word, and I think at first, they didn't even offer BASIC for it. If y'all think OS-9 or Unix is cryptic, APL is *not* the programming language for you. ;-) See ya, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 17 13:49:22 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Differences? References: <199706171805.AB09469@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <33A6DC2F.476C@rain.org> In checking through the TRS-80 Model I computers, I noticed two different catalog numbers, 26-1001 and 26-1006. I also noticed that one of the 26-001 computer has a sticker saying "Note - This unit has the lower case modification kit installed (Cat. No. 26-1104.) Since most of these machines have been previously owned by early computer users, needless to say most have been modified in one way or another. Anyone know the differences between the different catalog numbers? Thanks. From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jun 17 14:12:11 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Differences? Message-ID: <01IK6I284GWY90PNT5@cc.usu.edu> > In checking through the TRS-80 Model I computers, I noticed two > different catalog numbers, 26-1001 and 26-1006. I also noticed that one > of the 26-001 computer has a sticker saying "Note - This unit has the > lower case modification kit installed (Cat. No. 26-1104.) Since most of > these machines have been previously owned by early computer users, > needless to say most have been modified in one way or another. Anyone > know the differences between the different catalog numbers? Thanks. I don't suppose one number is for Level I BASIC and the other is for Level II BASIC? Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 17 14:22:11 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? References: <9705178665.AA866556953@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> <3.0.1.32.19970617143712.009e6740@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <33A6E3E3.5F08@rain.org> A while back, I "saved" some cartridges from being tossed. The label says "Digital Controls, Learning Center, Multiplan (title varies depending on cartridge), Registerd Trademark of Microsoft Corporations, Copyright Digital Controls, Inc." The other titles I have are "Preview 1", "Lotus", "dBase II", "Wordstar", "IBM PC", and "Multimate". Anyone out there know what these are and what they go to? Thanks! From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jun 17 14:37:45 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? Message-ID: <199706171935.OAA23779@challenge.sunflower.com> any chance for a PC Jr? maybe a TI/99? ---------- > From: Marvin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? > Date: Tuesday, June 17, 1997 2:22 PM > > A while back, I "saved" some cartridges from being tossed. The label > says "Digital Controls, Learning Center, Multiplan (title varies > depending on cartridge), Registerd Trademark of Microsoft Corporations, > Copyright Digital Controls, Inc." The other titles I have are "Preview > 1", "Lotus", "dBase II", "Wordstar", "IBM PC", and "Multimate". Anyone > out there know what these are and what they go to? Thanks! From pcoad at crl.com Tue Jun 17 13:51:36 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: STacy Was: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On this site was mention of the STacy laptop, an Atari ST laptop > (presumably). Anyone have or know anything about these? Sounds > interesting, and I vaguely remember hearing about it years ago. > IIRC it was a 1040ST motherboard in a laptop case. They come up for sale once in a while in the Atari ST news groups. It seems to me that Atari was developing another ST laptop at one point. I don't know if it was ever released. I'm sure that someone else has more information on it, but I might be able to dig up some an old article on them. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 14:38:38 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > Out of curiosity, anyone know how many IMSAIs were produced? > > > > I would guess a few hundred thousand, if you include the > > industrial and turn-key S-100 systems without a full front panel. > > Many of the boxes were rebranded by various manufacturers (i.e. > > the Cromemco box mentioned here a couple days ago.) > > > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > > > > So what about the "replicas" everyones been talking about? As someone who > will probably never find a "real" IMSAI, much less afford it if I did find > it, I'd be interested in building a replica. I don't think they're THAT hard to find. With "a few hundred thousand" in various implementations floating around, you're bound to run into run sooner or later, even if its not the vanilla type. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jun 17 15:01:54 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa parts -- Get 'em while you can... Message-ID: Ok, here's a twist. A 'rescue' of computer parts rather than whole machines? Anyone else think this might be worthwhile? -jim --- begin forwarded message --- Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 04:13:37 GMT From: Tom Stepleton Newsgroups: comp.society.folklore Subject: Apple Lisa parts -- Get 'em while you can... I realize that this may not be of general interest. I apologize in advance to those I might bore or annoy... This is probably nothing to be excited about, but... A friend has recently informed me that Sam Neulinger of New York's DAFAX is sending some Apple Lisa parts in rather poor condition to the recycler by afternoon (EST) tomorrow. AFAIK, they comprise mostly of items like video boards, power supplies, and some Macintosh XL hard disks, all in various states of disrepair but still good for salvage or fixing-up. There are probably various other tarnished gems as well. If anyone would like to have these parts, I am sure that Mr. Neulinger would just as soon sell them to a hobbyist as to a scrap dealer. Keep in mind that it is probably not in his interest to sell these items piecemeal -- any buyer would have to purchase these items bulk. Also keep in mind that a buyer would not have to buy EVERYTHING. So, it's up to anyone who is interested and has the cash. I have neither the money nor the space to house these items. Whatever; either they end up under a soldering iron or in a recycling bin. DAFAX will still sell working Lisa parts, but will not maintain power supplies any longer as it is not profitable for them. DAFAX's number is (718)746-8220. Thanks, --Tom TI-82: :For(A,0,9):0>D:For(B,0,A):A nCr B>C:Text(6A,D,C) :D+5(int log C+1)>D:End:End --- end of forwarded message --- --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 17 15:06:28 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970617160529.0068d078@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 07:22 PM 6/17/97 +0000, you wrote: >A while back, I "saved" some cartridges from being tossed. The label >says "Digital Controls, Learning Center, Multiplan (title varies >depending on cartridge), Registerd Trademark of Microsoft Corporations, >Copyright Digital Controls, Inc." The other titles I have are "Preview >1", "Lotus", "dBase II", "Wordstar", "IBM PC", and "Multimate". Anyone >out there know what these are and what they go to? Thanks! My first guess would have been an IBM PCjr because it has the only cartridge version of Lotus I've ever heard of. But Wordstar was definitely disk-based for the PCjr, in fact it had it's own version, Wordstarjr. Microsoft Multiplan came on cartridge for the TI99/4A, but I've never heard of the others being on cartridge format for that system. What are the dimensions of the cartridges and how many pins? Do the labels looks commercially viable, or could they be test/demo/proto labels? James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 17 21:11:56 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970617160529.0068d078@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>; from "James Carter" at Jun 17, 97 4:06 pm Message-ID: <199706172011.16039@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > At 07:22 PM 6/17/97 +0000, you wrote: > >A while back, I "saved" some cartridges from being tossed. The label > >says "Digital Controls, Learning Center, Multiplan (title varies > >depending on cartridge), Registerd Trademark of Microsoft Corporations, > >Copyright Digital Controls, Inc." The other titles I have are "Preview > >1", "Lotus", "dBase II", "Wordstar", "IBM PC", and "Multimate". Anyone > >out there know what these are and what they go to? Thanks! > > My first guess would have been an IBM PCjr because it has the only > cartridge version of Lotus I've ever heard of. But Wordstar was definitely > disk-based for the PCjr, in fact it had it's own version, Wordstarjr. > Microsoft Multiplan came on cartridge for the TI99/4A, but I've never heard > of the others being on cartridge format for that system. This probably has absolutely nothing to do with it, but there was a thing sold in the UK called a 'Simplifier'. It connected between a PC and its keyboard, and had a number of 'function keys' on the top and some LCD displays to label them. There were cartridges for most major PC applications, including Lotus 1-2-3 (I happen to have that cartridge). When in use, the displays would provide appropriate labels for the keys -- for example 'Enter new cell'. You'd then get another menu on the keys with 'Enter number', 'Enter Text', 'Enter Formula', etc. When you pressed one of those keys it would send the appropriate keycodes to the PC to perform the desired action. You could, of course, also use the normal PC keyboard if you wanted to. Has anyone else ever come across this device? -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 15:36:04 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? In-Reply-To: <33A6E3E3.5F08@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > A while back, I "saved" some cartridges from being tossed. The label > says "Digital Controls, Learning Center, Multiplan (title varies > depending on cartridge), Registerd Trademark of Microsoft Corporations, > Copyright Digital Controls, Inc." The other titles I have are "Preview > 1", "Lotus", "dBase II", "Wordstar", "IBM PC", and "Multimate". Anyone > out there know what these are and what they go to? Thanks! Probably carts for the PCjr. If so, those are pretty rare. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jun 17 16:00:41 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count References: Message-ID: <33A6FAF9.4307@ndirect.co.uk> Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > Out of curiosity, anyone know how many IMSAIs were produced? > > > > I would guess a few hundred thousand, if you include the > > industrial and turn-key S-100 systems without a full front panel. > > Many of the boxes were rebranded by various manufacturers (i.e. > > the Cromemco box mentioned here a couple days ago.) > > > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > > > > So what about the "replicas" everyones been talking about? As someone who > will probably never find a "real" IMSAI, much less afford it if I did find > it, I'd be interested in building a replica. > > Les me too! Help please enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jun 17 03:27:57 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Weekend Acquisitions III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 17-Jun-97, Paul E Coad wrote: >That the one with the switches should allow selection of which cartridge >to use, but it is not clear to me how the Cardboard/3 is supposed to work. >There must be some real voodoo needed to get some sets of carts to work >togther. >Do you have any information about the Cardboard/3? Paul, The manual devotes 6 pages to the different configurations of these 7 dip switches. The switches basically set which memory block the cartridges will reside in on boot-up. Each of these blocks is 8k in size. According to the diagram, it goes as follows: #1: slot 1, block 5 #2: slot 1, block 3 #3: slot 2, block 5 #4: slot 2, block 3 #5: slot 3, block 5 #6: slot 3, block 3 #7: controls whether the VIC can access block 1 or not Auto-boot cartridges reside in block 5, so the switch for the slot that cartridge resides in should be turned on for block 5. This is REAL simplified from the description in the manual, but I hope it helps. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 15:50:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Aim 65 Message-ID: 1. What is an Aim65? 2. What is a good price to offer to buy/sell one? Thanks! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 17 16:59:29 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 17, 97 12:38:38 pm Message-ID: <9706172059.AA32337@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1313 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970617/c1a3d2eb/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 17 17:02:05 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Aim 65 In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 17, 97 01:50:55 pm Message-ID: <9706172102.AA00525@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970617/1841b4a0/attachment.ksh From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jun 17 03:43:51 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: PONG In-Reply-To: <199706170822.BAA06094@covina.lightside.com> Message-ID: On 17-Jun-97, marcw@lightside.com wrote: >I just pulled out the Pong and manual. I suppose I don't have the >original pong anyway. >Super Pong, Model No. C-140 (1976). It has four different pong games >(labelled differently in the manual and on the box). Marc, Thanks! I've been trying to remember when we bought our Super Pong, and hadn't been able to narrow the date down very far at all. I just have the unit still...the manual and box were lost YEARS ago. It was fun entertaining a 4 and 6 year old with it a couple of months ago. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jun 17 12:31:04 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: PCjr questions and TI 99/4A tidbit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199706172130.RAA00642@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:36:41 -0700 (PDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Hello! I have a working PCjr without any add ons to it. All It had is two types of keyboard one is clicklet and one is real keyboard, parallel sidecar, extra 64k in it totals 128k and a 5.25" But it is missing a power transformer, it uses dual tapped 17vac connected to one tap inside the transformer making total of three wires. But I made up a power adapter to accept clone pc standard switching PSU in place of its little AC to DC convertor card. One time I booted it with 5.x dos but I had to set video mode to arrive at 80 columns at end of boot. Is the orignal transformer brick underpowered if I put extra add ons? Is that true that there is a lots of add ons for this PCjr? I would like to seperate the video to a proper video such as VGA card so it would not hog up the main memory and boost it to 640k. Finally is there a add on that allows me to plug a DMA chip in to speed up the floppy? It is nice compact computer! What I planning is to make this PCjr more of an real XT with SLOTS than a just a cheap vanilla-favored PCjr. Where's is good source to find these parts? Oh, by the way, my father still have a TI 99/4A in black/sliver case with all the stuff but not the expansion box. It is bit iffy and joysticks is worn out from lot of use by me and my brother. Both of us would program in lots of basic and see what it does. SLow. :) And both of us would play the Peaseac I think a LOT. What's is the best way to retore it to an reliable one again? Thanks! From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 17 18:35:33 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Apple /// booting and Franklin question Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053626F9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I think I saw this go by once before on the group, but - - How do you get an Apple /// to boot from the ProFile? Also: - Does anyone consider the Franklin Ace 1000 Apple II clone very collectible? thanks Kai From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Jun 17 18:50:00 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Aim 65 In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:50:55 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199706172350.QAA15638@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail writes: > 1. What is an Aim65? It's a singleboard 6502 system/eval kit from Rockwell, sort of like the MOS/CBM KIM-1, only different. 6502, some RAM, some ROM (sockets?), 20-char LED display, QWERTY keyboard, cash-register printer, a couple of bus connectors off the left side of the board. Actually, I'm not sure if the display, keyboard, and printer were there on all of them but I remember them being sold with those in the late 1970s/early 1980s. > 2. What is a good price to offer to buy/sell one? A few years ago I paid $5 for one at Foothill. It had apparently been OEMd into a nutrition advising system of some sort, as that is what seemed to be in the ROMs and it came in a cheap plastic case that pretty much hid the guts (just sturdy enough to be a frame for the AIM-65 and the power supply). No documentation, either for the AIM-65 itself or for the nutrition software. I don't recall for sure, but would expect that an AIM-65 from Rockwell would have come with something other than the nutrition software in the ROM sockets. Somewhere I do have an AIM-65 manual but it is (like most of my collection at present) in storage. -Frank McConnell From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jun 17 20:03:12 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: Apple /// booting and Franklin question Message-ID: <199706180100.UAA17101@challenge.sunflower.com> To use boot from a profile, you really can't you use a disk that boots the profiler. It's not really booting from it, but it is. I don't really understand it, just that the disk that came with my apple/// does it ---------- > From: Kai Kaltenbach > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Apple /// booting and Franklin question > Date: Tuesday, June 17, 1997 6:35 PM > > I think I saw this go by once before on the group, but - > > - How do you get an Apple /// to boot from the ProFile? > > Also: > > - Does anyone consider the Franklin Ace 1000 Apple II clone very > collectible? > > thanks > > Kai From sinasohn at crl.com Tue Jun 17 20:03:29 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970617180816.0b47380a@ricochet.net> At 11:41 PM 6/16/97 -0700, you wrote: >DOes anyone have a computer which uses the EBCDIC character set, rather >than ASCII (did I get the acronym right? what does it stand for anyway)? My HP3000 can write mag tapes in EBCDIC. EBCDIC: Extended Binary Coded Decimal Interchange Code (From the Acronym Database on the 'web.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Tue Jun 17 20:03:53 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970617180840.0b4738b8@ricochet.net> At 11:39 PM 6/16/97 -0700, you wrote: >On this site was mention of the STacy laptop, an Atari ST laptop >(presumably). Anyone have or know anything about these? Sounds >interesting, and I vaguely remember hearing about it years ago. The STacy is, I guess, a laptop, but it's one of those where you need a good sized lap. Still, a nice, compact machine, with built-in midi -- hence it's popularity with touring musicians. I think it was the Arsenio Hall show where the band leader had a STacy prominently displayed on stage (and working). If you're thinking of a true laptop, it's probably the ST Book, a notebook like computer that was ST compatible. Never came out, though, AFAIK. I've got a "Midi Magazine" (or something like that) that featured the ST Book on the cover. Shame that it didn't make it out (would've even been better as a Falcon-book) because it would have been one hell of a musician's tool. (My ST's and Falcons are *not* in my collection because they're still (in theory -- oh, if only I didn't have to work for a living) in use in my studio.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From marcw at lightside.com Tue Jun 17 18:53:04 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:55 2005 Subject: PCjr questions and TI 99/4A tidbit Message-ID: <199706180156.SAA09931@covina.lightside.com> > Is that true that there is a lots of add ons for this PCjr? I would > like to seperate the video to a proper video such as VGA card so it > would not hog up the main memory and boost it to 640k. Finally is > there a add on that allows me to plug a DMA chip in to speed up the > floppy? It is nice compact computer! What I planning is to make this > PCjr more of an real XT with SLOTS than a just a cheap > vanilla-favored PCjr. Where's is good source to find these parts? > PC Enterprises has a PCjr catalogue that they sent me for some reason. I used to get their Tandy parts catalogue. Assuming they're not going out of business call 'em up at 800-922-7257. They're on the east coast and keep banker's hours it seems. Best to get them in the morning. The catalogue I have is from '95 and is 111 pages thick with index. I'll email you later with the items you asked about with descriptions and prices. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org IRC Nick: Senshi Channel: #dos #IrcHelp http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html -- DOS Internet Tools From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jun 17 22:25:43 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Apple /// booting and Franklin question In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053626F9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: > > - Does anyone consider the Franklin Ace 1000 Apple II clone very > collectible? > What an interesting question - I don't usually consider how collectable a computer is, just whether or not I already have one ;). I guess I would consider it collectable but I'm really big on Apple clones. Franklin is an interesting case as they were one of, if not the first major casualty in Apple's fight against clonemakers. They also made a lot of nice modifications to the Apple design. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 17 22:28:16 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? References: <3.0.32.19970617160529.0068d078@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <33A755D0.4799@rain.org> James Carter wrote: > > What are the dimensions of the cartridges and how many pins? Do the labels > looks commercially viable, or could they be test/demo/proto labels? > I took a look at both the PC Jr. and the TI94 and the cartridges are not the same. This cartridge is just a bit narrower than the IBM PC Jr. cartridge but there are only 12 double sided gold fingers on the cartridge PC Board. The board itself has "Digital Controls Inc, copyright 1983" on it along with three 74LS244 chips and an EPROM. Without peeling the label off, I don't know what the chip number of the EPROM is and the only thing I can see is that it is an NEC chip. The EPROM label on this board says "Digital Controls, Inc., Lotus, version 2.0, (C) 1984". From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 17 22:46:33 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? References: <199706172011.16039@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <33A75A19.7038@rain.org> A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > > At 07:22 PM 6/17/97 +0000, you wrote: > > >A while back, I "saved" some cartridges from being tossed. The label > > >says "Digital Controls, Learning Center, Multiplan (title varies > > >depending on cartridge), Registerd Trademark of Microsoft Corporations, > > >Copyright Digital Controls, Inc." The other titles I have are "Preview > > >1", "Lotus", "dBase II", "Wordstar", "IBM PC", and "Multimate". Anyone > > >out there know what these are and what they go to? Thanks! > > > This probably has absolutely nothing to do with it, but there was a thing > sold in the UK called a 'Simplifier'. It connected between a PC and its > keyboard, and had a number of 'function keys' on the top and some LCD > displays to label them. There were cartridges for most major PC > applications, including Lotus 1-2-3 (I happen to have that cartridge). The name Digital Controls, Inc., especially the Inc. portion implies to me that it is a US company but I could be wrong on that. Do you have any idea what size the cartridges are? The outside dimensions of this cartridge is about 2 3/4" wide x 3" long x 7/8" thick. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue Jun 17 22:57:53 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > I don't think they're THAT hard to find. With "a few hundred thousand" > in various implementations floating around, you're bound to run into run > sooner or later, even if its not the vanilla type. > > Sam Well I don't know about you, but I've NEVER found much anything of interest around me as far as old computers go. I don't know ANYONE else that has either a commodore 64, Atari, Apple, TI, etc. I had to drive almost 2 hours just to get a CP/M machine!!!!! The most exciting thing that I have seen in MONTHS is an old CoCo (that looks like it's hooked up to an old radio) in my new girlfriends basement! (Haven't weasled it out of her dad yet...) If I even see a generic XT I consider myself lucky! If someone has got a reasonably priced IMSAI in the Philly area to sell, then fine... but I just don't see it hapening any time soon... Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 22:51:19 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Apple /// booting and Franklin question In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053626F9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > I think I saw this go by once before on the group, but - > > - How do you get an Apple /// to boot from the ProFile? I would want to know the same thing, although from the sounds of it, my ProFile seems long crashed. > Also: > > - Does anyone consider the Franklin Ace 1000 Apple II clone very > collectible? I do. You don't see very many around, and its a nice addition. I have one, and hopefully I have an ACE1200 coming from my brother. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From wbrco at valuenet.net Tue Jun 17 23:06:47 1997 From: wbrco at valuenet.net (Allen Underdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: HELP! References: Message-ID: <33A75ED7.70A3@valuenet.net> Faiaz, Michael C. HSD wrote: > > Does anyone have any info on where I can find accessories and parts for > my old PC8500 (NEC) laptop? > Thanks > Mike If that's the old ProSpeed stuff, I have a docking station and a 2400bps modem for one! -- | Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | | Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | | homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | | http://lakers.cybercon.com/wurmborn | From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 17 23:16:47 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > Well I don't know about you, but I've NEVER found much anything of > interest around me as far as old computers go. I don't know ANYONE else > that has either a commodore 64, Atari, Apple, TI, etc. I had to drive > almost 2 hours just to get a CP/M machine!!!!! The most exciting thing > that I have seen in MONTHS is an old CoCo (that looks like it's hooked up > to an old radio) in my new girlfriends basement! (Haven't weasled it out > of her dad yet...) If I even see a generic XT I consider myself lucky! It sounds more like you don't know where to look since I can't imagine a city the size of Philly not having quite a bit of stuff around. If people know that you collect old computers, after a while you will have people you don't even know coming up and telling you that a friend of theirs told them to get in touch with you. Doesn't happen in a weekend, but after a year or so (assuming you are serious about collecting), it will happen. There are a LOT of sources of old computers still around. I ended up with a number of the chicklet keyboard Pets (and turned down a dozen or so) that came from the local university. I end up with at least a dozen computers each year from people I don't know that heard about me and just want their computer to have a good home. Sources include Thrift stores, Salvation Army outlet, Goodwill Industry outlets, rummage sales (especially at schools), garage sales, flea markets, Hamfests and swapfests, and advertising as Sam did. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed Jun 18 00:14:05 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: VIC stuff, ComputerSpace, and SuperPET update! References: <199706170702.AAA09015@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33A76E9D.7007@goldrush.com> From: Paul E Coad Subject: Weekend Acquisitions III >...Get money. Go back to thrift. The VIC was still there. >Bought the box of stuff for $5. This included VIC-20 (still untested), >CN2 (my 3rd!), 3K, 8K, and 16K memory carts, super expander cart (with >manual), Forth Cart with box and manual, programmer's aid cart, machine >language monitor cart, 7 cart games, and a few cassette games. (think Homer Simpson Voice): Mmmmm Utilities! I have about 20 or so various Commodore datasettes, from a couple butchered Sanyo decks Commodore stuck in the first PETs to a clone one. Almost tempted to pick up another today -along with the 64 it was being sold with- >Saturday noon >Went back to the sale and met up with Uncle Roger and his girlfriend. >We had an excellent lunch. Swapped a few stories. Went home and >explained to my wife why I NEED 2 more Sun keyboards. Fortunately for me my wife understands, as she has read, it is easier to get along with your spouse if each of you have a money-pit hobby, hers is mainly knitting, spinning, and fabrics, and mine classic computers. I understand when she needs that third sewing machine and she understands the gleam in my eye as a snag another 4040 dual drive. >--pec -------------------- From: Kai Kaltenbach Subject: RE: PONG >...Several years before Pong, Nolan created a more >sophisticated game called Computer Space, built by Nutting and >Associates. >Computer Space was the first arcade video game. >Trust me, I own all of them. >Kai I have been curious what was Computer Space like????? I keep reading about it, but no good descriptions. What were the controls, the layout, the game play, etc. ------------ SuperPET update! Well I was a little bit conservative in my estimation of daughterboards on the SuperPET, the count is now three (well technically four, one of the daughterboards has a daughterboard itself.) I discovered the bottom-most daughterboard seemed to be loose so I had to do a partial diassembly to get to it. It would seem that the bottom-most daughterboard plugs directly into the 6502 socket of the 8032 motherboard, and that daughterboard was not seated in the socket (which is raised with about 4 stacked chip sockets!) Continuing on, I discover that also some of the pins on the bottom of the daughterboard were bent and *sigh* some broke upon attempt to get them back in line (they should be replaceable, but not too easily.) For now, I decided to re-assemble it (and all the various cross-connections and such). Also, I had gotten word back from the person who has a SuperPET and set the switches to work as an expanded 8032. I now can get the 'jingle' sound and a screen full of garbage characters! (Not a complete victory, but a very good amount of progress here!) Plus, the gentleman does have some of the disks: >Yes, I have most of the Waterloo software stuff, for sure the assembly >stuff, the Pascal possibly, the Fortran for sure, and possibly the >BASIC. I may even have the Cobol stuff... I really don't have the time or space to do much more presently, (one of these decades when I retire or win the lottery) but will work on getting a set of the disks, for future use. This is so much fun, my Commodore collection is getting there! Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 18 00:31:37 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: References: <9706171704.AA18136@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970617223137.00e9431c@agora.rdrop.com> At 01:38 PM 6/17/97 -0400, you wrote: >When did Cromemco rebrand IMSAI machines? I was under the impression >that Cromemco's boxes were all built by them, when they decided to >branch out from building add-in video cards and such for everybody's >S-100 system (as I recall, the TV Dazzler was the single most popular >upgrade in the history of the S-100 bus). >-- Well... to get specific I'll have to dig thru the catalogs, but Cromemco did for a time market the IMSAI chassis as the Cromemco Z-1, populated with Cromemco cards. Real tough to do too... New photo mask in the front panel. B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 00:53:42 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: NEC PC 8201A Accessory? References: <9706171704.AA18136@alph02.triumf.ca> <3.0.1.32.19970617223137.00e9431c@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <33A777E6.425A@rain.org> I have another strange device. This one is called a Channel Tester, Ser. No. 55263, and a date of 1985-4. It has a series of BNC connectors on the face labeled "Tx Audio", "RX Audio", "Spk", "Voice Tx Test", "Voice Rx Test", "Mod", "Disc", "RSSI", "NRZ Data", and "Bit CLock". I got it attached to an NEC PC 8201A (as I recall) TRS-80 Model 100 clone. It also has a male and female Centronix interface plugs on the side away from where it attaches to the 8201A. Does anyone have any idea what this thing is? Thanks! From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 18 00:53:37 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Old computers Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970617225337.01199698@agora.rdrop.com> Another target of opportunity for claim or rescue! -jim --- begin forwarded message --- >Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:15:56 -0500 (CDT) >From: Steve Jones >X-Sender: sjones@knoxadm.admin.knet.edu >To: jimw@agora.rdrop.com >Cc: Nancy Taflinger >Subject: Old computers >X-Status: > >We have a PDP-11/44 and a VAX 750 that are now parked in a corner, along >with a fair amount of documentation, system tapes. There are about 5 >RM02s, a tape drive, mux's, ... > >Also have a couple old DecMates. > >I would qualify them all as "free for the hauling", with the only concern >being a need to wipe some of the data on the PDP. Any interest or know >of anyone who might have? > >Steven A. Jones, Director >Computer Center, K-80 E-mail: sjones@knox.edu >Knox College Voice: (309) 341-7356 >Galesburg, Illinois 61401 Fax: (309) 341-7718 --- end of forwarded message --- --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 00:34:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: Ok, here's the deal. Marvin & I are both in contact with a guy who says he has 14 AIM65 units. Hopefully you all have been paying attention and have read the messages describing what this is. Marvin & I are of course both interested in buying one, and we dicussed the possibility that others in the discussion would be interested as well. We feel that if enough of us get together and offer this guy a bulk buy-out, we can get a good price from him. Marvin & I are talking about $20 a piece as of now. If this is of interest to anyone, I can give you his e-mail address and you can ask specific questions, but make sure you mention you are a part of this one-shot buyout so that we get a good deal. I think first we should get a count of who is all interested and then approach the guy. He's in New Jersey, and I don't think shipping should be more than $5 per unit. His e-mail address is Mikeooo1@aol.com and he left his phone number for me: (201) 331-1313. Please reply if you are interested in going in together on this. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jun 18 01:46:35 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Ok, here's the deal. Marvin & I are both in contact with a guy who says > he has 14 AIM65 units. Hopefully you all have been paying attention and > have read the messages describing what this is. Marvin & I are of course > both interested in buying one, and we dicussed the possibility that > others in the discussion would be interested as well. We feel that if > enough of us get together and offer this guy a bulk buy-out, we can get a > good price from him. Marvin & I are talking about $20 a piece as of > now. If this is of interest to anyone, I can give you his e-mail address > and you can ask specific questions, but make sure you mention you are a > part of this one-shot buyout so that we get a good deal. I think first > we should get a count of who is all interested and then approach the > guy. He's in New Jersey, and I don't think shipping should be more than > $5 per unit. Yo! Sam, I'm in for a penny and a pound! I have already emailed the guy too but I won't mention a price. Neither will he! So I don't think he knows what they are worth - do we? I would ABSOLUTELY want one. It would actually fulfill a dream of mine 8-) I have the KIM-1 and the SYM-1 so the only 6502 development board out there I don't have is the AIM-65 - I think!? And at that point, I would give him $20 - hell I would give him $30 for one shipped but buy all 14 for $280 (Yesss Yesss My Precious Should We? It would be so EVIL^H^H^H^H nice - No No I can't! The power of the One Ring is upon me! Resist!) Be sure to find out if they are the straight AIM-65. With the AIM ROMS in them. Or else we will have to make a ROM set for everyone too. There was a time when poeple used to sell these things with POS and even CNC programs pre-loaded in ROM. Seen 'em myself! BC - 6502 Fool 8-) From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jun 18 01:54:17 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: NEC PC 8201A Accessory? In-Reply-To: <33A777E6.425A@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > I have another strange device. This one is called a Channel Tester, > Ser. No. 55263, and a date of 1985-4. It has a series of BNC connectors > on the face labeled "Tx Audio", "RX Audio", "Spk", "Voice Tx Test", > "Voice Rx Test", "Mod", "Disc", "RSSI", "NRZ Data", and "Bit CLock". I > got it attached to an NEC PC 8201A (as I recall) TRS-80 Model 100 > clone. It also has a male and female Centronix interface plugs on the > side away from where it attaches to the 8201A. Does anyone have any > idea what this thing is? Thanks! Are they 50 pin Centronics? If they are, it could be a telephone tester. The Centronics port (at 50 pins) would take a "whip" and let you test all the lines on a PBX or straight telephone cable. If they are 36 pin Centronics I really don't know what used NRZ encoding in the early 80's except tape drives - or maybe its a tester for a radio land line from studio to tramsmitter - it does have the Mod-ulation BNC connection. Other than that - I'm stumped 8-) Who made it - NEC? BC From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 01:56:10 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: NEC PC 8201A Accessory? In-Reply-To: <33A777E6.425A@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > I have another strange device. This one is called a Channel Tester, > Ser. No. 55263, and a date of 1985-4. It has a series of BNC connectors > on the face labeled "Tx Audio", "RX Audio", "Spk", "Voice Tx Test", > "Voice Rx Test", "Mod", "Disc", "RSSI", "NRZ Data", and "Bit CLock". I > got it attached to an NEC PC 8201A (as I recall) TRS-80 Model 100 > clone. It also has a male and female Centronix interface plugs on the > side away from where it attaches to the 8201A. Does anyone have any > idea what this thing is? Thanks! I would almost say its a T-1 circuit tester but the "NRZ Data" connector throws me off. NRZ is probably Non-Return to Zero but its no T1 parameter I've ever heard of. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From frank at 5points.com Wed Jun 18 06:09:07 1997 From: frank at 5points.com (Frank Peseckis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33bac198.119614841@mail.capital.net> On Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:34:01 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >Ok, here's the deal. Marvin & I are both in contact with a guy who says >he has 14 AIM65 units. [snip] > We feel that if >enough of us get together and offer this guy a bulk buy-out, we can get a >good price from him. Marvin & I are talking about $20 a piece as of >now. If this is of interest to anyone, I can give you his e-mail address >and you can ask specific questions, but make sure you mention you are a >part of this one-shot buyout so that we get a good deal. I think first >we should get a count of who is all interested and then approach the >guy. He's in New Jersey, and I don't think shipping should be more than >$5 per unit. > >His e-mail address is Mikeooo1@aol.com and he left his phone number for me: >(201) 331-1313. > >Please reply if you are interested in going in together on this. > Count me in. I have also emailed him directly to express interest without mentioning price, and am waiting to hear back. How do you see this group purchase working? Sam, are you negotiating the price with him? And then we individually send him our payments? And he's willing to put together a dozen plus shipping packages to a dozen plus places? Whatever the answers, I'm in anyway. Frank Frank Peseckis frank@5points.com http://www.5points.com/ From groberts at mitre.org Wed Jun 18 06:46:13 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Aim 65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618074613.008253b0@mail90> At 01:50 PM 6/17/97 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: > >1. What is an Aim65? >2. What is a good price to offer to buy/sell one? it's a 6502-based Single Board Computer (SBC), somewhat like the KIM-1. i saw one offered for $50 including the qwerty keyboard at a hamfest in Virginia a few weeks back. he left without selling it so perhaps it'll be back. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From groberts at mitre.org Wed Jun 18 06:54:37 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618075437.007dde90@mail90> At 11:57 PM 6/17/97 -0400, Les wrote: >If someone has got a reasonably priced IMSAI in the Philly area to sell, >then fine... but I just don't see it hapening any time soon... hang in there. i actually saw an industrial type IMSAI chassis for sale at the Frederick (MD) Hamfest last weekend - only a couple hours drive from Philly so these things *do* exist on the east coast! i think he was asking $50 or $60. i believe he left without selling it so it could reappear. it wasn't complete but could have been a good starting point for an IMSAI collector (it had several CPU boards and some other stuff). of course without the front panel it's not as visually interesting as the original IMSAI. btw: he said he has bought this as part of a bigger package that included an original IMSAI and an Altair - both of which he fixed up and later sold! - glenn From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 18 08:29:53 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970617180816.0b47380a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > My HP3000 can write mag tapes in EBCDIC. > > EBCDIC: Extended Binary Coded Decimal Interchange Code (From the Acronym > Database on the 'web.) And using the 'dd' command, any Unix system can translate between ASCII and EBCDIC. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From spc at armigeron.com Wed Jun 18 09:35:51 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: PCjr questions and TI 99/4A tidbit In-Reply-To: <199706172130.RAA00642@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 17, 97 05:31:04 pm Message-ID: <199706181435.KAA00711@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca once stated: > > Is the orignal transformer brick underpowered if I put extra add ons? > Yes. I have a PCjr with a parallel extension and several memory extensions (two I think - it's at home, I'm at work) and I have a secondary power supply (that hooks up the same as all extentions, off the side). > Is that true that there is a lots of add ons for this PCjr? I would > like to seperate the video to a proper video such as VGA card so it > would not hog up the main memory and boost it to 640k. Finally is > there a add on that allows me to plug a DMA chip in to speed up the > floppy? It is nice compact computer! What I planning is to make this > PCjr more of an real XT with SLOTS than a just a cheap > vanilla-favored PCjr. Where's is good source to find these parts? You might want to try a web search on PCjr. I've heard of companies that supply parts, although for DMA, you'll have to have drivers since the BIOS does not support DMA driven I/O. -spc (Surprised at the music capabilities of the PCjr) From rector at usa.net Wed Jun 18 09:57:19 1997 From: rector at usa.net (Dan Rector) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: <199706181457.KAA03515@news.paonline.com> Sam, I don't own any computers that use EBCDIC, but I use them every day at work. EBCDIC - extended binary coded decimal interchange code is the character set used on most (if not all) IBM mainframes and midrange systems. (IBM S/390, S/36, S/38, AS/400 etc.) This set has its roots in punched cards (and prior) and really makes more sense when viewed from that perspective vs. that of the way things are today. ASCII - American National Standard Code for Information Interchange. Back when I was in college, an instructor stated it this way: (Speaking about the need for a uniform way to share info across machines. "There are two ways to obtain a standard in the industry. The first is to get a big commitee together and have all parties involved agree on what it should be (ASCII). Or, be the largest company in the industry, do it your own way and force everyone else to adopt your way of thinking. Dan ------------------- Sam Ismail wrote: DOes anyone have a computer which uses the EBCDIC character set, rather than ASCII (did I get the acronym right? what does it stand for anyway)? Just curious. Sam From groberts at mitre.org Wed Jun 18 10:11:32 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: PCjr questions and TI 99/4A tidbit In-Reply-To: <199706181435.KAA00711@armigeron.com> References: <199706172130.RAA00642@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618111132.008bad50@mail90> >> Is that true that there is a lots of add ons for this PCjr? ... >> Where's is good source to find these parts? i've been seeing a lot of PC Jr. stuff at recent hamfests including complete systems, IR keyboards and "sidecar" expansion units. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 10:47:05 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Aim 65 References: <199706172350.QAA15638@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <33A802CC.5FFD@rain.org> I just sent of e-mail to Mike, the guy who has the AIM65 machines to tell him I will give him a call tonight. The people who have expressed interest in one are now in a separate file and I'll post updates to this list. What I will be asking him tonight is 1) where did the machines come from (i.e., do they have the original ROMS), 2) what kind of documentation comes with them, and 3) how much does he want to sell them all for. This last question probably depends on the demand and I suspect quite a bit of the demand came from this listserver but we shall see. Any other questions that need to be asked? One question that does come up is how to handle the repackaging and remailing assuming we can buy them as a bulk deal. I have access to a commercial UPS account and the shipping costs there are cheaper than just taking the stuff in to UPS from someone off the streets ( I think somewhere between 1/2 to 3/4 of the off-the-street price.) From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 10:56:24 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: NEC PC 8201A Accessory? References: Message-ID: <33A80528.62F1@rain.org> Brett wrote: > > Are they 50 pin Centronics? If they are, it could be a telephone tester. > The Centronics port (at 50 pins) would take a "whip" and let you test > all the lines on a PBX or straight telephone cable. > > If they are 36 pin Centronics I really don't know what used NRZ encoding > in the early 80's except tape drives - or maybe its a tester for a radio > land line from studio to tramsmitter - it does have the Mod-ulation BNC > connection. > > Other than that - I'm stumped 8-) Who made it - NEC? > I'm stumped too :). I just checked and they are 36 pin Centronics connectors. I can't rememeber where the computer it was attached to came from, but a friend of mine wanted it and now he has it. And yes, it was also manufactured by NEC. From rector at rocketmail.com Wed Jun 18 11:07:51 1997 From: rector at rocketmail.com (Dan Rector) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: <19970618160751.21204.rocketmail@send1.rocketmail.com> Sam, I don't own any computers that use EBCDIC, but I use them every day at work. EBCDIC - extended binary coded decimal interchange code is the character set used on most (if not all) IBM mainframes and midrange systems. (IBM S/390, S/36, S/38, AS/400 etc.) This set has its roots in punched cards (and prior) and really makes more sense when viewed from that perspective vs. that of the way things are today. ASCII - American National Standard Code for Information Interchange. Back when I was in college, an instructor stated it this way: (Speaking about the need for a uniform way to share info across machines.) "There are two ways to obtain a standard in the industry. The first is to get a big committee together and have all parties involved agree on what it should be (ASCII). Or, be the largest company in the industry, do it your own way and force everyone else to adopt your way of thinking. Dan ---Sam Ismail wrote: > > > DOes anyone have a computer which uses the EBCDIC character set, rather > than ASCII (did I get the acronym right? what does it stand for anyway)? > > Just curious. > > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 11:11:29 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Mark 8 References: <199706172130.RAA00642@mail.cgocable.net> <3.0.2.32.19970618111132.008bad50@mail90> Message-ID: <33A808B1.5B61@rain.org> I need another project :) and I was thinking about building the Mark 8 computer. Somewhere, I seem to recall that someone was having the board sets for this computer made up, does anyone out there know or remember who might be doing this? This was the computer that appeared on the cover of Radio-Electronics sometime (as I recall) in 1974 and predates the Altair. I am starting to actively look for the Intel 8008 microprocessor but so far no luck. But that's okay, I still have a LOT more friends and people I know to bug about it :). As I recall, it had about 6 boards in the board set and a bunch of TTL chips, but I don't recall if the boards were single or double sided. If anyone has the artwork, either on film or as a template, I would be interested although I *think* the PCB layouts were included in the Magazine (haven't pulled it out yet to check.) To convert the artwork in the magazine to decent PCB artwork would cost roughly $17 per board for the negative and perhaps another $10 or so to get another copy (after cleaning up the imperfections in the first negative.) Not sure what the cost per finished board would be but single sided would most likely be between $15 - $20, and double sided about 20% or so more. Anyone else interested in this project? Since I am not in a rush, I suspect we are talking several months to get the boards and artwork done. From transit at primenet.com Wed Jun 18 11:38:41 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Franklin 1000 (was: Re: Apple /// booting and Franklin question In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053626F9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > - Does anyone consider the Franklin Ace 1000 Apple II clone very > collectible? I have one, I use it with my Alphasyntauri keyboard. Collectable? Probably. Didn't they quit making them after Apple sued them for copyright infringement? From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 11:42:43 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: DEC RL02K DC Disk Pack References: <19970618160751.21204.rocketmail@send1.rocketmail.com> Message-ID: <33A81003.3327@rain.org> A friend of mine wants to get rid of a bunch of DEC RL02K Disk Packs. He has about 24 or so without boxes and another 6 or so still in the original DEC shipping box. The one I have here says "BC-AV02G-BC, RT-11 update G bin RL02" and the date is 1986. These disk packs are about 14" or so in diameter. Anyone have any idea what these might be worth or who would be interested? My guess is somewhere around $5 each but I really don't have any idea. Thanks. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 18 11:43:36 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Mark 8 In-Reply-To: <33A808B1.5B61@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > I need another project :) and I was thinking about building the Mark 8 > computer. Somewhere, I seem to recall that someone was having the board > sets for this computer made up, does anyone out there know or remember > who might be doing this? That would be me... > This was the computer that appeared on the > cover of Radio-Electronics sometime (as I recall) in 1974 and predates > the Altair. I am starting to actively look for the Intel 8008 > microprocessor but so far no luck. But that's okay, I still have a LOT > more friends and people I know to bug about it :). The truth (and the chips) is out there... > As I recall, it had about 6 boards in the board set and a bunch of TTL > chips, but I don't recall if the boards were single or double sided. Double sided. The new boards should be pretty neat. > If anyone has the artwork, either on film or as a template, I would be > interested although I *think* the PCB layouts were included in the > Magazine (haven't pulled it out yet to check.) Sorry, no. To get the PCB layouts you had to order the 'supplimental document pack' for an extra $5.00 (long out of print, bit I have copies) Unfortunately, the plates used for the original printing appear to have been overexposed and there are a number of places on the layouts where traces and pads have blurred together. So, in short the original layouts are a good reference, but largely useless to work directly from. Additionally, there are three components (aside from the 8008) that are either no longer in production, or don't have current functional replacements. These being the 1101 (256x1) RAM used in the prototype, and some latches used in the address/memory buffer board. So... since we were confronted with doing (pretty much) new board layouts anyway, we are also going to do redesigns of the memory and address/memory buffer boards to allow the use of more readily available components. (2102 (1k x 1) RAM for the memory, and I'm still checking on latches) The unit will be functionally unchanged. I'm also considering making a limited number of unmodified memory and address/memory buffer boards is there is sufficient interest. (or if someone is sitting on a potload of these latch parts!) In any case... I need to complete the workup on the address/memory buffer board changes so I can send the last updates over to my layout folks so we can move forward on the boards... All I need is about another 2-3 days in a week... B^{ -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 18 11:55:50 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Mark 8 Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205371460@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | ---------- | From: James Willing | Subject: Re: Mark 8 | | On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: | | > I need another project :) and I was thinking about building the Mark 8 | > computer. Somewhere, I seem to recall that someone was having the board | > sets for this computer made up, does anyone out there know or remember | > who might be doing this? | | That would be me... If you get one of these up and running, I have a Scelbi book, "Space Wars for the 8008 Microprocessor" with full hex code listings... Kai From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 18 12:59:01 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: DEC RL02K DC Disk Pack In-Reply-To: <33A81003.3327@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 18, 97 09:42:43 am Message-ID: <9706181659.AA21924@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1179 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970618/74211a34/attachment.ksh From MPritchard at ensemble.net Wed Jun 18 12:20:32 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C74F@consulting.ensemble.net> Count me in for $20 plus shipping! Ill be @ E3, so no responces for a few days. > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Ismail [SMTP:dastar@crl.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 1997 12:34 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: AIM65 > > > Ok, here's the deal. Marvin & I are both in contact with a guy who > says > he has 14 AIM65 units. Hopefully you all have been paying attention > and > have read the messages describing what this is. Marvin & I are of > course > both interested in buying one, and we dicussed the possibility that > others in the discussion would be interested as well. We feel that if > > enough of us get together and offer this guy a bulk buy-out, we can > get a > good price from him. Marvin & I are talking about $20 a piece as of > now. If this is of interest to anyone, I can give you his e-mail > address > and you can ask specific questions, but make sure you mention you are > a > part of this one-shot buyout so that we get a good deal. I think > first > we should get a count of who is all interested and then approach the > guy. He's in New Jersey, and I don't think shipping should be more > than > $5 per unit. > > His e-mail address is Mikeooo1@aol.com and he left his phone number > for me: > (201) 331-1313. > > Please reply if you are interested in going in together on this. > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, > Writer, Jackass > From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 11:42:23 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: <33bac198.119614841@mail.capital.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Frank Peseckis wrote: > >Ok, here's the deal. Marvin & I are both in contact with a guy who says > >he has 14 AIM65 units. > > Count me in. I have also emailed him directly to express interest > without mentioning price, and am waiting to hear back. > > How do you see this group purchase working? Sam, are you negotiating > the price with him? And then we individually send him our payments? > And he's willing to put together a dozen plus shipping packages to a > dozen plus places? I think he was planning to do that anyway. I figure after we get a count of who is all interested, we can all approach him and say we want it at $xx price. Or we can have one person approach him, tell him there are Y people wanting it at X price, if you agree, each person will send you his individual mailing address. I think he would be interested since he is most likely to dump all these in one fell swoop, in one easy deal. Everyone, hurry and respond so we can stick a fork in this. 3 people besides myself and Marvin have already expressed interest. That means there are about 9 left. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 11:48:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970618080003.0081ed10@mail90> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Glenn Roberts wrote: > i'm interested in one of the Aim 65's. $20 seems like a fair offering > price. you mentioned a bulk offer but then you mentioned his email address > so wasn't clear if you guys were trying to coordinate this or let everyone > deal directly with him. let me know how this pans out. tx. I didn't want to seem like a slick willy trying to take over the negotiations for everyone. But I think it would be best if one person did the negotiating and made the deal. It depends on what everyone wants. If it's OK with everyone else, I or Marvin can do the deal, then let everyone know. Otherwise, if everyone wants to take a stab at it themselves, that's fine. I think the easiest for all parties is to offer a bulk buyout at a set price. I think everyone will come away winners. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 11:58:51 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Mark 8 In-Reply-To: <33A808B1.5B61@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > As I recall, it had about 6 boards in the board set and a bunch of TTL > chips, but I don't recall if the boards were single or double sided. If > anyone has the artwork, either on film or as a template, I would be > interested although I *think* the PCB layouts were included in the > Magazine (haven't pulled it out yet to check.) To convert the artwork > in the magazine to decent PCB artwork would cost roughly $17 per board > for the negative and perhaps another $10 or so to get another copy > (after cleaning up the imperfections in the first negative.) Not sure > what the cost per finished board would be but single sided would most > likely be between $15 - $20, and double sided about 20% or so more. > Anyone else interested in this project? Since I am not in a rush, I > suspect we are talking several months to get the boards and artwork > done. Sounds cool. I have absolutely no time, but I hope you carry through on this and do it. I would be interested in building one from your pioneering reconstruction eventually. Good luck. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 13:11:57 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: DEC RL02K DC Disk Pack References: <9706181659.AA21924@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33A824ED.47D3@rain.org> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > As of a few months ago, DEC was still selling new RL02 carts. Price > was $220 each, regardless of whether you wanted RL02K-DC or RL02K-EF > (EF = the "error free" version, guarantee of no bad sectors.) > > That said, used ones go for US$5 or US$10 each in clean condition > and without tripped Shockwatches. Nobody will buy any packs with > tripped Shockwatches. > Ah, my guess was close, thanks MUCH! These are in clean condition and I just found out I also have the drive that probably was used with that type of disk. Also, I don't recall any of them having the shock indicator anything but clear. Now all I have to do is set up the system and hope everything works :). As Jim said, all that is needed are a number of extra days in each week. From mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu Wed Jun 18 13:24:21 1997 From: mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu (Matthew P. Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: old memory boards? Message-ID: <19970618132421.45442@beret.cs.utexas.edu> Hi. I'm a small-time collector interested in older unix machines, though I think I'd be more interested in micros if I had more room than my apartment provides. I was picking up a load of Sun VME-bus equipment today and ran across some memory boards. These are definitely not for the suns, neither multi-bus nor vmebus. The boards are perhaps 12"x16" and are populated with what I presume to be memory chips (AMD 21-17559-01 / 8333EMM) in 16 banks of 9 chips each. The connector along the back has 6 distinct edge-card pieces, with 18 contacts per connector per side. All of the boards appear to be more or less of the same nature, but one is manufactured by Motorola, and 4 have digital markings. Along the back of three of the digital boards, there are two metal protrusions. One says AM, the other M8210. The other digital board is AZ M8210, and it has a lot of Mostek chips that I would guess are 16kbit 300ns chips . . Does anyone know what machine used these boards? The sun equipment I salvaged was sadly without CPU board or power supply but I did manage to grab 2 8mb boards and a bevy of SCSI and SMD controllers. I guess I can add it to my collection of old sun hardware that needs drives to become operational. Do SMD drives frequently show up at swap meets, etc? matt -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@cs.utexas.edu -- Austin, Texas (512)457-0086 -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Wed Jun 18 13:44:32 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: old memory boards? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:24:21 CDT." <19970618132421.45442@beret.cs.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <199706181844.NAA13197@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> >I was picking up a load of Sun VME-bus equipment today and ran across >some memory boards. These are definitely not for the suns, neither >multi-bus nor vmebus. The boards are perhaps 12"x16" and are populated >with what I presume to be memory chips (AMD 21-17559-01 / 8333EMM) >in 16 banks of 9 chips each. The connector along the back has 6 >distinct edge-card pieces, with 18 contacts per connector per side. That sound a lot like memory for a VAX 11/780. The one I have is a 256K x 39 (7 of the bits are for ECC), but the previous owner removed some of the 4164s. Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 18 20:03:26 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: old memory boards? In-Reply-To: <19970618132421.45442@beret.cs.utexas.edu>; from "Matthew P. Sayler" at Jun 18, 97 1:24 pm Message-ID: <199706181903.18446@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I was picking up a load of Sun VME-bus equipment today and ran across > some memory boards. These are definitely not for the suns, neither > multi-bus nor vmebus. The boards are perhaps 12"x16" and are populated > with what I presume to be memory chips (AMD 21-17559-01 / 8333EMM) > in 16 banks of 9 chips each. The connector along the back has 6 > distinct edge-card pieces, with 18 contacts per connector per side. > > one is manufactured by Motorola, and 4 have digital markings. Along > the back of three of the digital boards, there are two metal > protrusions. One says AM, the other M8210. The other digital board > is AZ M8210, and it has a lot of Mostek chips that I would guess > are 16kbit 300ns chips . . That sounds like a standard DEC hex-height board (apart from the size - DEC boards were more like 10" long). I would suspect the memory was probably 8 banks of 18 bits (16 bits + parity on each byte) > > Does anyone know what machine used these boards? PDP11? They might conceivably be VAX-11 boards, but I can't find the M8210 in any of my lists, so without seeing them I can't be sure. > drives to become operational. Do SMD drives frequently show up at > swap meets, etc? I've managed to find them. Note that there are small (8") winchesters, larger winchesters (10.5" and 14") and downright massive demountables all with the SMD interface. > > matt -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 18 14:24:02 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970618123227.0947d6da@mail.crl.com> At 12:22 PM 6/17/97 -0700, you wrote: >1", "Lotus", "dBase II", "Wordstar", "IBM PC", and "Multimate". Anyone >out there know what these are and what they go to? Thanks! Well, "IBM PC" helps date it, as does "dBase II". Has to be early-to-mid 80's. I would guess, off the top of my head, PCjr cartridges? Do I win the prize? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 18 14:24:32 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: STacy Was: yo Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970618123247.0947dec4@mail.crl.com> At 11:51 AM 6/17/97 -0700, you wrote: >IIRC it was a 1040ST motherboard in a laptop case. They come up for >sale once in a while in the Atari ST news groups. It seems to me The last STacy I saw sold went for about $750 -- about a year ago. They still get close to that; they're still popular with musicians. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From BigLouS at aol.com Wed Jun 18 14:56:56 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Apple /// booting and Franklin question Message-ID: <970618155447_407618349@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-18 00:54:51 EDT, bill@booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) wrote: << - Does anyone consider the Franklin Ace 1000 Apple II clone very > collectible? Yes. It was a legitimate alternative to the Apple II+ at a lower price. I designed my first database on a 1000 and found it to be 100% compatible with the II+ (it should have been since they copied the II+ roms) and very reliable. I think that the Franklin line as well as the Laser series of clones belongs in any Apple II collection. Lou From BigLouS at aol.com Wed Jun 18 15:11:43 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: <970618161031_1109853756@emout06.mail.aol.com> Count me in for $20 + shipping. Lou From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 18 16:14:20 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: old memory boards? In-Reply-To: <199706181903.18446@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 18, 97 08:03:26 pm Message-ID: <9706182014.AA14460@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 837 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970618/ca3acbb0/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 18 15:23:23 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: <970618161031_1109853756@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: What the hell, count me for twenty bucks. Shipping probably not required, I live and work in area code 201. (Though that will change shortly when the area code gets divvied up). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 18 15:08:34 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Mark 8 Message-ID: <199706182008.AA09096@world.std.com> > > If you get one of these up and running, I have a Scelbi book, "Space > Wars for the 8008 Microprocessor" with full hex code listings... I've designed using that chip and still have my MCS-8 microcomputer set manual from intel If you need help. FYI another old ram chip that fits with that CPU is 2101 (256x4). Allison From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 15:54:21 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Modem Eliminators References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205371460@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33A84AFD.7544@rain.org> Not sure what the correct term is for these devices but I have seen "Modem Eliminator" on several. I'm not at all sure I am interested in keeping all these things. I have about 4 to 6 or so of these Micom units and probably a few others of some other brand. They look like they have a serial port and telephone connections. They seem like they were part of all the larger systems a number of years back and thus seem like they might be worth saving. Anyone interested? From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 18 15:39:23 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: AIM65 References: Message-ID: <33A8477B.2CB1@ndirect.co.uk> Brett wrote: > > On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > Ok, here's the deal. Marvin & I are both in contact with a guy who says > > he has 14 AIM65 units. Hopefully you all have been paying attention and > > have read the messages describing what this is. Marvin & I are of course > > both interested in buying one, and we dicussed the possibility that > > others in the discussion would be interested as well. We feel that if > > enough of us get together and offer this guy a bulk buy-out, we can get a > > good price from him. Marvin & I are talking about $20 a piece as of > > now. If this is of interest to anyone, I can give you his e-mail address > > and you can ask specific questions, but make sure you mention you are a > > part of this one-shot buyout so that we get a good deal. I think first > > we should get a count of who is all interested and then approach the > > guy. He's in New Jersey, and I don't think shipping should be more than > > $5 per unit. OK, count me for one. I am willing to pay the extra charge for shipping via surface mail. Thank you ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jun 18 16:41:29 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 9, 97 01:30:15 pm Message-ID: <199706182141.PAA13021@calico.litterbox.com> Ok, I'm about 10 days behind, but for cleaning plastic, especially cigarette smoke (computer is yellow, vaguely sticky) soft scrub works well. The citrus paint thinner cleaner being discussed is called Goo Gone. It works well for sticky messes (IE you got ahold of my old commodore monitor and tried to peel the bumper stickers off... oops). -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 18 16:47:58 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33a85767.273444@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Count me in. Ben From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jun 18 17:50:33 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > It sounds more like you don't know where to look since I can't imagine a > city the size of Philly not having quite a bit of stuff around. If people I live about 30 minutes from Philly by way of I-95. In the boonies. > know that you collect old computers, after a while you will have people > you don't even know coming up and telling you that a friend of theirs told > them to get in touch with you. Doesn't happen in a weekend, b Which of course is why I have 10 PC/XT's but no cool stuff... > year or so (assuming you are serious about collecting), it will happen. > There are a LOT of sources of old computers still around. I ended up with > a number of the chicklet keyboard Pets (and turned down a dozen or so) > that came from the local university. I end up with at least a dozen > computers each year from people I don't know that heard about me and just > want their computer to have a good home. > > Sources include Thrift stores, Salvation Army outlet, Goodwill Industry > outlets, rummage sales (especially at schools), garage sales, flea > markets, Hamfests and swapfests, and advertising as Sam did. > In my experience, the "volunteers" at the Salvation Army filtered out anything that even resembled computers so that they could sell it themselves. If it comes in a box and has a detach keyboard (i.e. looks like a PC) it never gets to the showroom floor. Trust me.... I *know* As for flea markets, I have NEVER seen a computer for sale (I still go and hope tho...) and advertising seems a little too much as I barely have enough room for the 25 or so computers I have already! Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 17:41:31 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:56 2005 Subject: Aim 65 In-Reply-To: <33A802CC.5FFD@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > One question that does come up is how to handle the repackaging and > remailing assuming we can buy them as a bulk deal. I have access to a > commercial UPS account and the shipping costs there are cheaper than > just taking the stuff in to UPS from someone off the streets ( I think > somewhere between 1/2 to 3/4 of the off-the-street price.) I proposed to him that he would ship each unit out to each interested party separately. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From pcoad at crl.com Wed Jun 18 16:38:04 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: <970618161031_1109853756@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: I'm in for $20 + shipping. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 18 18:00:32 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Salvation Army (was RE: IMSAI 8080 production count) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053978E8@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | In my experience, the "volunteers" at the Salvation Army filtered out | anything that even resembled computers so that they could sell it | themselves. If it comes in a box and has a detach keyboard (i.e. looks | like a PC) it never gets to the showroom floor. Trust me.... I *know* Well, I don't think they're selling them themselves... if they have a policy (perhaps nationally) like the western washington Salvation Army headquarters in downtown Seattle, they auction off pallets of donated computer equipment to the for-profit thrift organizations such as Value Village, Thriftko and Shop & Save. Unfortunately, the Seattle headquarters holds the auctions not monthly, not weekly, but DAILY, and at 8:30 AM !!! Kai From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jun 18 18:30:21 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Mark 8 In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205371460@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > | ---------- > | From: James Willing > | Subject: Re: Mark 8 > | > | On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > | > | > I need another project :) and I was thinking about building the Mark > | > 8 computer. Somewhere, I seem to recall that someone was having the > | > board sets for this computer made up, does anyone out there know > | > or remember who might be doing this? > | > | That would be me... > > If you get one of these up and running, I have a Scelbi book, "Space > Wars for the 8008 Microprocessor" with full hex code listings... I also have the three books - An 8008 Editor Program Machine Language Programming for the 8008 Assembler Programs for the 8008 I am such a packrat 8-) BC From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 18 18:44:41 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius on AuctionWeb Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205397958@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> FYI, Somebody's got a Radofin Aquarius on AuctionWeb: http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=elv642 Kai From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 17:42:44 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Aim65 (fwd) Message-ID: Here's some info from the guy about the AIM65s. They sound like nice units. Marvin, please e-mail me so we aren't stepping on each other's toes. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:02:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikeooo1@aol.com To: dastar@crl.com Subject: Re: Aim65 Dear Sam, They are all in new working condition.The beauty about the Aim 65 is that it was a single board computer which was self contained in that it had its display,printer,and memory all mounted on its board so that peripheral attachments weren't necessary.Yes,it comes with a keyboard and power supply also.I developed a plastic enclosure and metal base and ROM board for the system so the keyboard and power supply could be housed with the Aim in a compact unit and programs could be burned onto eproms which would seat in the ROM board rather than rely on tape storage which involves a recorder hookup and would be quite slow. Best Regards Mike From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Wed Jun 18 19:02:51 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings: I just picked up an Apple ][e, monitor, disk drives, the whole works... even a mouse! But, I am wondering if someone out there might be able to sell me a copy of the Disk Operating System disks and maybe one or two (more?...) game disks? Please get in touch with me at the below address, e-mail, or phoen number, if you might have something like that which I could use to get the system going. Thanks, CORD COSLOR Archive Software //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 18:04:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > As for flea markets, I have NEVER seen a computer for sale (I still go and > hope tho...) and advertising seems a little too much as I barely have > enough room for the 25 or so computers I have already! Then what are you complaing about? Sell the crap you don't want and use that to advertise for stuff you do want. Here's a suggested ad: "WANTED: Your old computers- commodores, ataris, texas instruments, radio shack/tandy, older 70s/80s mini-computers, etc. Will pay cash. No PCs or PC clones manufactured within the last 10 years please." Stick that in your local penny-saver or whatever-they-call-it-there paper and wait for the calls to flood in. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From KFergason at aol.com Wed Jun 18 19:11:22 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: <970618201031_-628125255@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-18 02:16:46 EDT, you write: << His e-mail address is Mikeooo1@aol.com and he left his phone number for me: (201) 331-1313. Please reply if you are interested in going in together on this. Sam >> I would be interested in this. Kelly Fergason KFergason@aol.com From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 19:35:52 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Salvation Army (was RE: IMSAI 8080 production count) References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053978E8@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33A87EE8.4F3D@rain.org> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > Well, I don't think they're selling them themselves... if they have a > policy (perhaps nationally) like the western washington Salvation Army > headquarters in downtown Seattle, they auction off pallets of donated > computer equipment to the for-profit thrift organizations such as Value > Village, Thriftko and Shop & Save. > > Unfortunately, the Seattle headquarters holds the auctions not monthly, > not weekly, but DAILY, and at 8:30 AM !!! > I just found out our local Salvation Army does the same thing every Tuesday and Thursday at 8:30 AM. I gather everything is in cash (I was told no checks) and there is a $2 or $3 admission charge. I meant to check it out yesterday but missed it. There is always tomorrow :). From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 19:39:56 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Mark 8 References: Message-ID: <33A87FDC.385F@rain.org> Brett wrote: > > I also have the three books - > > An 8008 Editor Program > Machine Language Programming for the 8008 > Assembler Programs for the 8008 > > I am such a packrat 8-) > Well, I think we are all members of that select group :). In checking though another box of docs, I found a couple dozen DEC books from the 60's and 70's covering the PDP 11, 11/40, 11/34, 11/45, 16, 20, VAX, and a bunch of other interesting stuff. This collecting could get to be addictive :)! From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 19:54:41 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count References: Message-ID: <33A88351.2FA2@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > that to advertise for stuff you do want. Here's a suggested ad: > > "WANTED: Your old computers- commodores, ataris, texas instruments, > radio shack/tandy, older 70s/80s mini-computers, etc. Will pay cash. > No PCs or PC clones manufactured within the last 10 years please." > > Stick that in your local penny-saver or whatever-they-call-it-there paper > and wait for the calls to flood in. > It sounds like you may have done this, so what, if I can ask, do people normally expect to be paid for "their pride and joy" given your suggested ad? Unless I either don't have the computer or it is unique in some way, I try not to pay anything for the computers. Most people are happy for it to have found a good home. Not always though :). From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 18 20:25:57 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Aim 65 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970618182603.3dcffe16@ricochet.net> >One question that does come up is how to handle the repackaging and >remailing assuming we can buy them as a bulk deal. I have access to a I'm sure there will be enough people in the bay area to warrant a dinner get-together to distribute a bulk package. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 18 20:26:05 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970618182609.3dcfd7f8@ricochet.net> At 09:48 AM 6/18/97 -0700, you wrote: >negotiations for everyone. But I think it would be best if one person >did the negotiating and made the deal. It depends on what everyone I agree... We could have them shipped to one place and re-shipped from there; USPS should be around $3-5 if you're not in a hurry. (And I'm not worried about them becoming obsolete before I get mine...) If they're shipped to the bay area, I've got lots of boxes and packing materials I need to get rid of... (I'd volunteer to handle it, but I'm new to the mailing list, and if it were me, I would trust me yet.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 20:50:26 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Fuller Electronics References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053978E8@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <33A87EE8.4F3D@rain.org> Message-ID: <33A89062.559B@rain.org> I have a new unit built for use with one of the Radio Shack computers. It was manufactured by Fuller Electronics, is a Model RF-2/41 and has a serial number 1018. The top has what looks like a volume control. There are two switches on the front, one 3 position labeled "Both", "Off", and "Cross", another 2 position switch labeled "Computer" and "Recorder", and two LEDs, one Red and the other green. On the back side are three jacks labeled "Black", "Grey", and "Grey", and six cables with three each coming from a hold labeled "REC 1" and "REC 2". It was manufactured here in Santa Barbara, but so far, I haven't been able to find out anything about it. Anyone out there ever heard of this device? From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jun 18 21:03:42 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Fuller Electronics In-Reply-To: <33A89062.559B@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > I have a new unit built for use with one of the Radio Shack computers. > It was manufactured by Fuller Electronics, is a Model RF-2/41 and has a > serial number 1018. The top has what looks like a volume control. There > are two switches on the front, one 3 position labeled "Both", "Off", and > "Cross", another 2 position switch labeled "Computer" and "Recorder", > and two LEDs, one Red and the other green. On the back side are three > jacks labeled "Black", "Grey", and "Grey", and six cables with three > each coming from a hold labeled "REC 1" and "REC 2". It was > manufactured here in Santa Barbara, but so far, I haven't been able to > find out anything about it. Anyone out there ever heard of this device? Marvin - sometimes you are REALLY funny! Obviously this is a tape duplicator. You can go from one unit to two others or from the computer to the other two recorders. How are those AIM-65's coming??????? BC From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 18 23:12:05 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970618182609.3dcfd7f8@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > If they're shipped to the bay area, I've got lots of boxes and packing > materials I need to get rid of... (I'd volunteer to handle it, but I'm new > to the mailing list, and if it were me, I would trust me yet.) Uh, but what of us here on the other coast (where the devices are to start with)? (I'm in the same area code, actually). Damn, but I wish I was back home in the Republic of California. If someone would be so kind as to sow salt where Sacramento used to be, so the capital can be returned to San Jose, I'd be much obliged. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jun 18 19:16:46 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19970618182609.3dcfd7f8@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199706190416.AAA13672@mail.cgocable.net> Hello, What's good to have AIM65 for? I am curious. If it is useful for learning how to do digital stuff, great! Is that best way to start from beginning with basics and work up? > Subject: Re: AIM65 Thanks! Jason D. From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jun 18 23:46:47 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: <199706190416.AAA13672@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997 jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > What's good to have AIM65 for? I am curious. If it is useful for > learning how to do digital stuff, great! No it isn't useful at all. The beastie is about 20 years old and is so outdated even the dinosaurs got bored with it. However, so of us dinosaurs, have fond and long memories! > Is that best way to start from beginning with basics and work up? Well, that way has worked before - for oh say a couple of million years 8-) The AIM-65 is a 6502 development system. I think it first appeared about 1978. The KIM-1 board (which was just that - a board with 6 LED displays and a hexideciaml keyboard plus some other switches) came out about 1976 and the SYM-1 (and expanded version made by Synertek Systems Corp.) had a speaker. 6 LED displays and 2 (YES 2) serial ports came out some where in between. Bothe the KIM and the SYM came standard with 1K of memory. The AIM-65 showed up with a QWERTY keyboard and a PRINTER with a 20 character display! WOW! All of them could only access 64K of memory. The KIM and SYM came standard with 20 ma current loop drivers for the ASR-33 and DEC LA-whatever that also used the 20 ma current loop. The AIM didn't need anything else and was widely integrated into many stand alone single purpose computers. Of course, since it was SO complete it sold for twice what the others sold for. I would believe most KIM's and SYM's where tossed around 84-86 when you could buy REAL Intel power for you desktop 8-( and the 68000 came out - I don't remember when. These boards have been turned into real production type beasts by thier owners but still they just didn't have the omph to do the more demanding tasks. The AIM continued to enjoy the dedicated stand aone market for some time however - even tho they stopped selling them. You could just reuse them. The 6502 and the 6800, which it came from, along with the 8080 and it's child the Z80 are still the most popular subfunction controllers around. There are now being replaced with the PIC series (IMHO) and will eventually fade into to sunset. All I want is a ray of sunshine 8-) BC From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jun 19 00:02:57 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > If they're shipped to the bay area, I've got lots of boxes and packing > > materials I need to get rid of... (I'd volunteer to handle it, but I'm new > > to the mailing list, and if it were me, I would trust me yet.) > > Uh, but what of us here on the other coast (where the devices are to start > with)? (I'm in the same area code, actually). Damn, but I wish I was > back home in the Republic of California. If someone would be so kind as > to sow salt where Sacramento used to be, so the capital can be returned to > San Jose, I'd be much obliged. So ship the whole lot to me in mid-western Canada. That way it'll be eqidistant from both coasts when I ship them out. (I'm just kidding, of course.) The logical (to me, anyway) solution seems to be to have the east coast people in the same area code pick them up, ship out the ones closer to the east coast. Pack up the rest in one shipment and send them to CA (state code, not the confusing country code) and have the rest distributed/shipped from there. Does that make any sense at all? Maybe I need a bit more sleep. Of course, then, which end am I closer to? All UPS shipments between US/Canada go through winnipeg. But I'm rambling now. (Thinking out loud?) I promise I'll shut up now. ttfn srw From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 23:28:45 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > If they're shipped to the bay area, I've got lots of boxes and packing > > materials I need to get rid of... (I'd volunteer to handle it, but I'm new > > to the mailing list, and if it were me, I would trust me yet.) > > Uh, but what of us here on the other coast (where the devices are to start > with)? (I'm in the same area code, actually). Damn, but I wish I was It would not make a whole lot of sense to have all of them shipped out here and then re-distributed. I'll let FEDEX do that. My intent is to have the guy Mike do all the shipping direct from his place in Jersey to each buyer. The point of having a single deal is to get the best price. I sent off a message to him proposing $20 per unit. I'm waiting for a response back. Hopefully news will come soon :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 23:13:18 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Mark 8 In-Reply-To: <33A87FDC.385F@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Well, I think we are all members of that select group :). In checking > though another box of docs, I found a couple dozen DEC books from the > 60's and 70's covering the PDP 11, 11/40, 11/34, 11/45, 16, 20, VAX, and > a bunch of other interesting stuff. This collecting could get to be > addictive :)! Tell me about it. I can't stop stuffing crap into my garage. Today I happened to be in the area of my (now favorite) thrift shop and picked up the following: Tandy 1000HX with Tandy 300 baud modem, Tandy Mouse, Tandy Disk Storage case, two Tandy 3.5" disk drives, a Tandy Clock Chip upgrade (all in the box...I think I got the Tandy Geek's old system). Two Atari 2600s (one almost complete in the original box), one Atari 2600jr, a bunch of 2600 carts A box of Intellivision carts A commodore 64c with disk drive An Odyssey 4000 (pong games, circa 1978 I believe, very nice). Two beige TI 99/4a and some miscellany. All for $50.00. So much to sort through, so little time. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 23:25:28 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: <33A88351.2FA2@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > that to advertise for stuff you do want. Here's a suggested ad: > > > > "WANTED: Your old computers- commodores, ataris, texas instruments, > > radio shack/tandy, older 70s/80s mini-computers, etc. Will pay cash. > > No PCs or PC clones manufactured within the last 10 years please." > > > > Stick that in your local penny-saver or whatever-they-call-it-there paper > > and wait for the calls to flood in. > > > > It sounds like you may have done this, so what, if I can ask, do people > normally expect to be paid for "their pride and joy" given your > suggested ad? Unless I either don't have the computer or it is unique > in some way, I try not to pay anything for the computers. Most people > are happy for it to have found a good home. Not always though :). Normally people who respond to these ads are surprised that anyone is stupid enough to even want to take this stuff, let alone pay money for it. It actually depends on size at this point in a computer's obsolescence...humans are funny that way, valuing something by its size when all other notions of value have faded with time. $5 for small units, $10 for medium size and $15 for big. Unless they know what it is they are selling, such as my friend who sold me his Victor 9000, ZX81 and IMSAI 8080 for $100. I would piece that up like so: IMSAI - $70, Victor 9000 - $20, ZX81 - $10. Really though, its up to you to propose a price. From my experience though, when they ask what you want to pay for it (since a lot of times they don't know what to sell it for, and of course they'd like to get the most out of it that they can) ask %60 of what you eventually want it for. Make sure you've done some research on what you are buying so that you don't end up paying more than fair market value (which is to say what we here would pay since we are the market). If you're lucky (you will be more times than you think) they'll say SOLD! Other times they'll add %25 or so, but that's only if they are arabic, greek or jewish (mediterraneans in general) because we like to haggle. Like if you say $15 they'll say $20. Then maybe if you want to waste some time you can go $17! And they'll go no $20! And then...well anyway, I could write a whole book on it. It takes practice, but its fun. Its all part of the collecting experience for me. Well this message has dawdled. Is that a word? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 01:34:14 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 References: Message-ID: <33A8D2E6.2DA2@rain.org> It seems every time I turn around, I find something else I either haven't seen in a while, or don't know anything about it. In this case, I picked up a brand new Digilog 1500 some number of years ago. It is not on the "Big List" so does anyone know anything about this? I seem to recall the guy I bought it from saying it was around $9500 new. Unfortunately, it came with no docs or software, just a brand new machine. It is a unit with the keyboard, monitor, disk drives, and probably the rest of the computer contained in the same case (I haven't opened it up.) It is about the size of a TRS Model III/IV. Thanks. From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jun 19 01:55:51 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well this message has dawdled. Is that a word? > > Sam Someone should probably do a study on the length and quality of email messages based on the time of day they were typed. (Specifically comparing the start of the message to the end of it.) There's probably a government grant in there somewhere. ttfn srw From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 02:01:24 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Fuller Electronics References: Message-ID: <33A8D944.5841@rain.org> Brett wrote: > > On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > I have a new unit built for use with one of the Radio Shack computers. > > It was manufactured by Fuller Electronics, is a Model RF-2/41 and has a > > serial number 1018. The top has what looks like a volume control. There > > are two switches on the front, one 3 position labeled "Both", "Off", and > > "Cross", another 2 position switch labeled "Computer" and "Recorder", > > and two LEDs, one Red and the other green. On the back side are three > > jacks labeled "Black", "Grey", and "Grey", and six cables with three > > each coming from a hold labeled "REC 1" and "REC 2". It was > > manufactured here in Santa Barbara, but so far, I haven't been able to > > find out anything about it. Anyone out there ever heard of this device? > > Marvin - sometimes you are REALLY funny! > > Obviously this is a tape duplicator. You can go from one unit to two > others or from the computer to the other two recorders. > Well, you answered part of the question :). Maybe I should have rephrased it to also ask if anyone had ever heard of Fuller Electronics. Dick Fuller was (he died about 6 years ago) pretty active with a number of projects, both hardware and software. I *think* he was the person publishing CLOAD magazine, but I am not sure; I still need to ask around Santa Barbara to find out. When he died, I was asked to help clean out his place and at that time, most of the stuff he had was too old to be current and too new to be collectors items. I still had a BIG aversion to dumpstering stuff so I ended up with quite a bit of things he was working on as well as his TRS Model 1s, IIs, IIIs, and a lot of associated software. It was a bit scary since I could relate to how and where he had things stored :). One of the things I did was to empty out his file cabinets of papers that were useless after he died. He was a packrat and had a several folders filled with flyers and information about the software and hardware of the 70's. It almost went into the dumpster but I had second thoughts and ended up with the stuff. His dad just wanted the stuff gone and wasn't interested in anything but getting the place cleared out. I am rather glad it didn't go in the dumpster as I would be kicking myself now! This device was one of several projects he tried to market and looks to be nicely built. Unfortunately, I seem to recall putting the rest of these devices out with the garage sale stuff and they probably went into the dumpster after the garage sale with the rest of the remaining stuff as I had no idea what these things were . > How are those AIM-65's coming??????? I think Sam posted a response to your question ... and now we wait! From pcoad at crl.com Wed Jun 18 20:54:11 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: VIC stuff, ComputerSpace, and SuperPET update! In-Reply-To: <33A76E9D.7007@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <<< No Message Collected >>> From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 20:50:47 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > Greetings: > > I just picked up an Apple ][e, monitor, disk drives, the whole works... > even a mouse! But, I am wondering if someone out there might be able to > sell me a copy of the Disk Operating System disks and maybe one or two > (more?...) game disks? > > Please get in touch with me at the below address, e-mail, or phoen number, > if you might have something like that which I could use to get the system > going. Cord, forget about the system disks. You don't actually need them. The Apple was the kind of computer where you could use it with or without disks, although having software made it more useful. Each disk for the apple is self-contained and has whatever DOS it needs to run it. Your main concern right now is to get software for it, whatever that may be - games, utilities, productivity, etc. Find the apple users group near you (if there is one) or go to comp.sys.apple where you will find a ton of information on how and where to obtain apple software. Its not hard to find, there were literally tens of thousands of titles published for the Apple ][. If you've never had an Apple before, you want to go out and start collecting ssome of the games released for it, as there are some fun titles. But as far as system disks, if you want to round out your collection, then I guess you would want an original copy just to say you have them, but every Apple I ever got was second-hand, and I already had software from the previous apple I was upgrading from, and having the original system disks was a moot point, as there were so many other more useful disks to have. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Jun 19 05:09:55 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > My internal floppy seems to be hosed. I can't boot any disks off of it. > Some bgin to boot but then go to error, others invoke this horrendous > recalibration that never ends. I assume the drive head is dirty and the > speed needs calibrating. I wonder if I can calibrate this drive like one > can the Disk ][? Bummer. Is it not possible to use a Disk ]['s drive mechanism with the ///? Internally or externally? Obviously trying to do so internally would bring form factor problems, but I'm wondering if it could be done anyway. Thankfully my internal drive works, but I wouldn't mind hooking up a second drive to it... and the chances of finding a Disk /// lying around are practically nil. Oh, BTW, my Apple /// has TWO Profile cards in it, but there were no hard drives lying around where I bought the thing. How common are those drives? > > I do need the system disks. I didn't get them with the machine. I wish > > there was some way to transfer them electronically, though... which is why > > I asked if there was a way of getting an Apple ][ to access a ///'s disks. > > I suppose the ///'s drive is double-sided, though. > > Doug, if you want I can e-mail NuFX (ShrinkIt) images to you. This would > be the quickest way for you to get them. You'd need an Apple // running > shrinkit of course. The disk format between the // and /// is identical. That would be great, thanks! I've never used ShrinkIt, but I can at least get stuff to and from my //e, and I've got two Disk ][s and a 512K RAM card in it. I'll get ShrinkIt via FTP. I don't suppose the /// disks are available at some anonymous FTP site already? It'd be especially cool in .dsk format, as that's how I transfer all of my ][ software. (I never had a decent terminal program for my Micromodem IIe, so I wrote a whole disk transfer program and extract individual files when I have to once the disk image is on my Amiga.) > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Jun 19 05:57:36 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970614233211.006b92f4@post.keme.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, steve wrote: > At 06:10 13/06/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Of course this all assumes that I *have* a PC. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > 22DISK allows you to convert, format and manipulate diskettes in over 450 > CP/M formats to and from DOS files. Your old CP/M machine may be gone, but > you can read its diskettes in the drives of your PC-compatible. Some ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > formats will require a 1.2M diskette drive; a very few will require a > diskette controller that handles single-density diskettes. An ASCII > diskette description drive allows "roll your own" specifications for > hard-to-find or proprietary systems. Please stop assuming I've joined the Evil Empire. My only PC compatibles are my A1060 Sidecar on my Amiga 1000, which no longer has a 5.25" floppy drive as I put a hard drive in its bay, and a Tandy 1000EX, which has no way of communicating with anything else that I own because ALL it has is a 360K floppy drive. Besides, I was talking about CP/M for the Commodore 1541 drive. That's a multi-speed drive that uses GCR encoding, not MFM. Try writing THAT with 22DISK on your PC-clone. IMHO, someone should write software like 22DISK for the Amiga, as it can read/write MFM and GCR, and do some other weird things that PC-clone floppy controllers can't do (like read Amiga disks, for example ;) ). > >DO YOU WANA COPY??? I already have a copy, actually, but nothing to use it on at the moment. Thanks for the offer anyway. > Emulator BBS > 01284 760851 > Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE Emulators can be fun, but I've never met an emulator that was as good as the real thing. Excepting Macintosh emulators, of course. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Jun 19 06:38:47 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970616175024.3fff0824@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 11:50 PM 6/15/97 -0400, you wrote: > >So what exactly is a Victor 9000??? > >Just another PC clone? > > Not a clone, but similar. Max RAM was 768K, came with a Floppy Drive as > standard (IIRC). Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drives > (as the early Mac's did as well.) Ran an early version of MS-DOS, I think. Uh, I beg to differ about the Victor 9000 being the first computer to use variable speed disk drives, as my CBM 2040 dual drive unit from 1979 does this. That's how it gets 21 sectors on tracks 1 to 17, 20 sectors on tracks 18 to 24, 18 sectors on tracks 24 to 30, and 17 sectors on tracks 31 to 35. AFAIK, all PET-era CBM drives do this, and the 1540 and 1541 drives do as well. As Chuck Peddle designed the PET for Commodore, it is not surprising that he went on to use variable speed drives in his own company's machine. > And, IIRC, it pre-dated the IBM PC. I thought the Victor 9000 was from around 1982. There's a review of it, and an interview with Chuck Peddle, in the November 1982 issue of BYTE. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 12:55:05 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: ; from "Doug Spence" at Jun 19, 97 7:38 am Message-ID: <199706191155.3182@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Uh, I beg to differ about the Victor 9000 being the first computer to use > variable speed disk drives, as my CBM 2040 dual drive unit from 1979 does > this. No it doesn't (or at least the 8050 doesn't, and nor does the 1541 - I have service manuals for both of them) The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more sectors on said tracks. I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time). > > That's how it gets 21 sectors on tracks 1 to 17, 20 sectors on tracks 18 > to 24, 18 sectors on tracks 24 to 30, and 17 sectors on tracks 31 to 35. > > AFAIK, all PET-era CBM drives do this, and the 1540 and 1541 drives do as > well. > Doug Spence > ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From tedbird at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 19 07:48:19 1997 From: tedbird at ix.netcom.com (Ted Birdsell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count References: Message-ID: <33A92A93.5C23@ix.netcom.com> Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > > > It sounds more like you don't know where to look since I can't imagine a > > city the size of Philly not having quite a bit of stuff around. If people > > I live about 30 minutes from Philly by way of I-95. In the boonies. > > As for flea markets, I have NEVER seen a computer for sale (I still go and > hope tho...) and advertising seems a little too much as I barely have > enough room for the 25 or so computers I have already! > > Les > more@crazy.rutgers.edu Les, I also live 30 minutes outside of Philly. There are a number of places to find great classic computers. Just three weeks ago, I found a front panel IMSAI 8080 and another S-100 kit for $10 at a flea market in NJ. The IMSAI is in perfect working condition, except for four broken plastic switches. By the way, can anyone tell me the address of the place that sells the switches? The kit is unlabeled except for it says Xitan or maybe Xitac on the motherboard (I'm at work and can't check right now.) I agree with Les that the Salvation Army and Goodwill stores around here never have any classic computers worth buying. Ted tedbird@ix.netcom.com From tedbird at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 19 07:55:51 1997 From: tedbird at ix.netcom.com (Ted Birdsell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: AIM65 References: <970618201031_-628125255@emout19.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33A92C57.F83@ix.netcom.com> Hi, Count me in on the AIM65. Ted tedbird@ix.netcom.com From tedbird at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 19 08:04:34 1997 From: tedbird at ix.netcom.com (Ted Birdsell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Front Panel IMSAI 8080/ Altair 8800b Turnkey for trade References: <970618201031_-628125255@emout19.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33A92E62.3C38@ix.netcom.com> Hi, I have a front panel IMSAI 8080 and an Altair 8800b Turnkey for trade. I would be willing to trade for other computers of equal vintage. I am especially looking for a Processor Technology Sol. I am interested in trade only, I will not sell the units. Email me with any interesting trade offers. Ted tedbird@ix.netcom.com From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jun 19 08:11:11 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? Message-ID: <199706191308.IAA21041@challenge.sunflower.com> You do need the system disks in order to make copies of disks. ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Apple ][e software? > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 1997 8:50 PM > > On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > > > Greetings: > > > > I just picked up an Apple ][e, monitor, disk drives, the whole works... > > even a mouse! But, I am wondering if someone out there might be able to > > sell me a copy of the Disk Operating System disks and maybe one or two > > (more?...) game disks? > > > > Please get in touch with me at the below address, e-mail, or phoen number, > > if you might have something like that which I could use to get the system > > going. > > Cord, forget about the system disks. You don't actually need them. The > Apple was the kind of computer where you could use it with or without > disks, although having software made it more useful. Each disk for the > apple is self-contained and has whatever DOS it needs to run it. Your > main concern right now is to get software for it, whatever that may be - > games, utilities, productivity, etc. Find the apple users group near you > (if there is one) or go to comp.sys.apple where you will find a ton of > information on how and where to obtain apple software. Its not hard to > find, there were literally tens of thousands of titles published for the > Apple ][. If you've never had an Apple before, you want to go out and > start collecting ssome of the games released for it, as there are some > fun titles. But as far as system disks, if you want to round out your > collection, then I guess you would want an original copy just to say you > have them, but every Apple I ever got was second-hand, and I already had > software from the previous apple I was upgrading from, and having the > original system disks was a moot point, as there were so many other more > useful disks to have. > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kyrrin at wizards.net Thu Jun 19 09:01:06 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: 'Orange Wall' FREE! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619070106.00f814c8@mail.wizards.net> Ok, got another freebie for the group. I have the infamous DEC 'Orange Wall' worth of docs on VMS 4.whatever, at least a couple of big boxes worth. As I don't anticipate running VMS (heck, I don't own a big VAX!) anytime soon, I would rather see these go to someone who needs them. If no one speaks up, I'll recycle the innards and use the binders. First one who wants to visit me in Kent, WA can have 'em! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jun 19 09:29:50 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Good Emulators & floppies (was: C64 CP/M carts (was:...)) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970614233211.006b92f4@post.keme.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619102950.009db5c0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Doug Spence said: >Please stop assuming I've joined the Evil Empire. My only PC compatibles >are my A1060 Sidecar on my Amiga 1000, which no longer has a 5.25" floppy >drive as I put a hard drive in its bay, and a Tandy 1000EX, which has no >way of communicating with anything else that I own because ALL it has is >a 360K floppy drive. "Evil Empire?" == Use the Farce, Duke! == First, if you have an Atari ST, (and I think TOS 1.4 or above... getting my ST next weekend! Wheeeee! ;-) it can read/write/format PC floppies. Second, if the EX's drive controller can handle double-sided drives, replace the SSDD drive with a DSDD one and get 720K storage, and the capability to read other 720K floppies... BTW, you mentioned in the original post that you own a 1541 C= drive... would you like to hook that up to the EX? There's a way to run that drive thru the serial port, takes a 1 or 2 chip converter board, and I've seen the dox on this... but I'm not a Commie fan (sorry... had to say that ;^) but ISTR that the circuit is very similar to the one used to hook up the Atari 8-bit series drives (810 / 1050 / Indus, etc.) to an IBM as well. >Emulators can be fun, but I've never met an emulator that was as good as >the real thing. Excepting Macintosh emulators, of course. :) Well, given your disliking of PC-Clones, you obviously have not heard about Jeff Vavasour's emulators that run on the Intel platform. He's got emulators for the Tandy Model 1, 3 and 4, and the Tandy Color Computer 2 and 3. I ran the CoCo 2 emulator (freeware) and liked it so much, that I bought ($25-shareware) the CoCo 3 emulator... and ***Love*** it! I have full info on this program for any CoCoNuts out there, and remember: Just 'cause you ain't seen it, don't mean it ain't there! I've got the fastest CoCo in the area! (Running the emu on a P150+... Whoohoo!!! ;-) Anyway, gotta go, and have fun emulating! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jun 19 09:33:40 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <199706191155.3182@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619103340.009ecd20@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: [snip] >The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data >clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more >sectors on said tracks. > >I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data >clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle >up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time). > >> >> That's how it gets 21 sectors on tracks 1 to 17, 20 sectors on tracks 18 >> to 24, 18 sectors on tracks 24 to 30, and 17 sectors on tracks 31 to 35. >> >> AFAIK, all PET-era CBM drives do this, and the 1540 and 1541 drives do as >> well. > >> Doug Spence >> ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca >-tony >ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk Righto, Tony! There are programs that you can get for IBM PC's that do this and you can store 1.8Megs on a 1.44Meg drive! (Didn't the Apple and Amiga do this with there 800K and 880K drives, respectively?) See Ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From ghjorth at sn.no Thu Jun 19 13:26:17 1997 From: ghjorth at sn.no (Thomas Christopher Jarvis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 88 In-Reply-To: <199706190702.AAA32450@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Would somebody please unsubscribe me from this list? Thank you. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Jun 19 10:07:06 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970619103340.009ecd20@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: I snipped blank lines... On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: > [snip] > >The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data > >clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more > >sectors on said tracks. > >I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data > >clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle > >up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time). > >> That's how it gets 21 sectors on tracks 1 to 17, 20 sectors on tracks 18 > >> to 24, 18 sectors on tracks 24 to 30, and 17 sectors on tracks 31 to 35. > >> AFAIK, all PET-era CBM drives do this, and the 1540 and 1541 drives do as > >> well. > >> Doug Spence > >> ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > >-tony > >ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > Righto, Tony! There are programs that you can get for IBM PC's that do this > and you can store 1.8Megs on a 1.44Meg drive! > (Didn't the Apple and Amiga do this with there 800K and 880K drives, > respectively?) With Linux (Or any Unix) I can get 2.0 meg on a 1.44 meg floppy. Those disks are actually 2.0 meg, with .66 meg taken up by the filesystem. By using the disk as a raw device, I can get tar to put 2 meg on a disk. From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Jun 19 10:22:56 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 Message-ID: <01IK92HXLNJ69GV5UB@cc.usu.edu> > It seems every time I turn around, I find something else I either > haven't seen in a while, or don't know anything about it. In this case, > I picked up a brand new Digilog 1500 some number of years ago. It is > not on the "Big List" so does anyone know anything about this? Yeah, I know a little about Digilogs. Used to use one quite a bit; when I started working here, that was the CP/M machine of choice and we had a couple of them (the non-CP/M machine of choice were the Micro PDP-11s that DEC kept throwing at us). Someone had built a custom interface between one of them and a PC05 to punch paper tape to ship out to folks who did our wire-wrapping (the software to generate the paper tapes was either in FORTRAN on the PDP-11s or PL/I-80 on the Digilogs; shortly after I arrived we moved the FORTRAN version to the VAX-11/780 we had just installed (sigh; I was the only user of the 11/780 most of the time and I had a whole gigabyte of RM05s to play with; those were the days), so I never had to use the PL/I-80 version of the wirewrap software). We started picking up Televideo 802s and 803s about that time and migrated from the Digilog to them. No promises, but I _may_ have a CP/M boot disk for the thing and (depending on how recently my cow-orkers have cleaned their offices) I may be able to find a bit of technical info. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 19 10:29:21 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > Please stop assuming I've joined the Evil Empire. My only PC compatibles > are my A1060 Sidecar on my Amiga 1000, which no longer has a 5.25" floppy > drive as I put a hard drive in its bay, and a Tandy 1000EX, which has no > way of communicating with anything else that I own because ALL it has is > a 360K floppy drive. Whaddaya mean the 1000EX can't communicate. It's got a serial port. Where's your null-modem? The single most important tool in the _world_ for anybody with incompatible systems. Even when I was a child of thirty with a Color Computer, a TRS-80 4P, a TRS-80 Mod 16, a Tandy 2000 and an AT&T 3B1, my null-modems were the only to move stuff. (It was also the best way to use the Tandy 2000 for its two purposes: terminal to the Xenix and Unix boxes -- great keyboard -- and as a 512k serial/parallel converter and print buffer between the other machines and my sole MX-80 printer). > > Emulator BBS > > 01284 760851 > > Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE > > Emulators can be fun, but I've never met an emulator that was as good as > the real thing. Excepting Macintosh emulators, of course. :) There's something fun about running a TRS-80 (or other 8-bit) emulator under a PC emulator on a Unix box. Levels of abstraction... -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 10:41:23 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 References: <01IK92HXLNJ69GV5UB@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <33A95323.53EA@rain.org> Roger Ivie wrote: > > > It seems every time I turn around, I find something else I either > > haven't seen in a while, or don't know anything about it. In this case, > > I picked up a brand new Digilog 1500 some number of years ago. It is > > not on the "Big List" so does anyone know anything about this? > > No promises, but I _may_ have a CP/M boot disk for the thing and (depending > on how recently my cow-orkers have cleaned their offices) I may be able to > find a bit of technical info. > Wow, that would be great! It would also be good to get enough information to add it to the "Big List" that Bill maintains. In any case, thanks for the info! From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Jun 19 10:45:44 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 In-Reply-To: <33A95323.53EA@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Roger Ivie wrote: > > > > > It seems every time I turn around, I find something else I either > > > haven't seen in a while, or don't know anything about it. In this case, > > > I picked up a brand new Digilog 1500 some number of years ago. It is > > > not on the "Big List" so does anyone know anything about this? > > > > No promises, but I _may_ have a CP/M boot disk for the thing and (depending > > on how recently my cow-orkers have cleaned their offices) I may be able to > > find a bit of technical info. > > > > Wow, that would be great! It would also be good to get enough > information to add it to the "Big List" that Bill maintains. In any > case, thanks for the info! > Hmm. One of my friends got a LOT of apple II stuff from a business that went under. One of the things he got was an 8" CP/M disk. I'm gonna go try to get my hands on it. (It said CP/M on it). It may be destroyed/gone by now. This was a year or two ago, before I got interested in old stuff... Any way to tell what system it's for without being able to read it? From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Jun 19 11:07:05 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: <199706191308.IAA21041@challenge.sunflower.com> from "Bill Girnius" at Jun 19, 97 08:11:11 am Message-ID: <199706191607.KAA17551@calico.litterbox.com> You can also get the most recent versions of apple2 operating systems from ftp.apple.com. A great place to get information on the a2 world is Nathan Mates apple2 faq at http://www.visi.com/~nathan/a2/faq/csa2.html -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Jun 19 10:58:36 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 Message-ID: <01IK93WLN43M9GV5UB@cc.usu.edu> > Hmm. One of my friends got a LOT of apple II stuff from a business that > went under. One of the things he got was an 8" CP/M disk. I'm gonna go > try to get my hands on it. (It said CP/M on it). It may be > destroyed/gone by now. This was a year or two ago, before I got > interested in old stuff... Any way to tell what system it's for without > being able to read it? You usually can't tell what system it's for even _with_ being able to read it. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jun 19 10:59:47 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > > Please stop assuming I've joined the Evil Empire. My only PC compatibles > > Whaddaya mean the 1000EX can't communicate. It's got a serial port. IIRC, it in fact does _not_ have a serial port! There was a serial card available using the proprietary expansion bus. Good luck finding one of those now. My memories are actually of the 1000HX, which I believe was basically the same thing but with 3.5" drive instead of 5.25" (And maybe more RAM?) ttfn srw From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 17:10:51 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: ; from "Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers" at Jun 19, 97 11:29 am Message-ID: <199706191610.10894@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Where's your null-modem? The single most important tool in the _world_ > for anybody with incompatible systems. Even when I was a child of thirty The second most useeful tool is a 'Christmas Tree' - one of those little RS232 adapters with red and green lights for the most important signals (TxD, RxD, RTS, CTS, DSR, DTR and CR). They sell for about \pounds 12.00 (say < $20.00) in the UK. Although I have a good breakout box, a data error rate tester and a Tektronix Datacoms analyser, I use the 'Christmas Tree' a lot more than any of the other serial testers. It's small, convenient, and if it does go walkabout, I can afford to replace it. It's useful for figuring out if you need a null-modem cable (what pins are inputs and what are outputs), what handshake lines are in use, etc. > > > Emulator BBS > > > 01284 760851 > > > Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE > > > > Emulators can be fun, but I've never met an emulator that was as good as > > the real thing. Excepting Macintosh emulators, of course. :) > > There's something fun about running a TRS-80 (or other 8-bit) emulator > under a PC emulator on a Unix box. Levels of abstraction... I really don't see the interest in emulators if the real hardware still exists. I'd much rather have the real thing, and have all the fun of maintaining it, than have a piece of software (probably without source) running on a PC that I can't get spare chips for. Perhaps it's because I'm a hardware hacker, but emulators seem to lack so much compared to the phyusical machine. > Ward Griffiths -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 17:12:19 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: ; from "Scott Walde" at Jun 19, 97 9:59 am Message-ID: <199706191612.11027@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > IIRC, it in fact does _not_ have a serial port! There was a serial card > available using the proprietary expansion bus. Good luck finding one of > those now. IIRC, that expansion bus was pin-pin compatible with a stadard 8-bit ISA connector. It should be possible to kludge up an adapter cable (keep it as short as possible) to use a normal PC serial card in the EX. Trace the ground and power lines to figure out which way round the connector is, and which side is which. > ttfn > srw -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 19 12:13:37 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 19, 97 10:45:44 am Message-ID: <9706191613.AA23653@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1345 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970619/90161730/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 19 12:28:12 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: <33A92A93.5C23@ix.netcom.com> from "Ted Birdsell" at Jun 19, 97 08:48:19 am Message-ID: <9706191628.AA04295@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1202 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970619/65e694e1/attachment.ksh From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Thu Jun 19 11:34:33 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:57 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? Message-ID: <970619113433.20400f02@wartburg.edu> >You do need the system disks in order to make copies of disks. Maybe. For the longest time, I didn't have a DOS 3.3 System Master for my IIGS. I thought DOS 3.3 was a neat OS because you could make your own bootable disks easily. (You can with ProDOS too, but I didn't know that at the time.) I managed to get DOS 3.3 by finding a game or something that ran on DOS 3.3, halting it with Control-C to get to the Applesoft BASIC prompt, then using the file commands such as INIT to make a new disk. I can't remember if DOS 3.3 has a built-in command that will copy a disk... There's probably a way to do it. -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 19 12:37:46 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: <970619113433.20400f02@wartburg.edu> from "Andy Brobston" at Jun 19, 97 11:34:33 am Message-ID: <9706191637.AA26443@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 565 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970619/94b82e43/attachment.ksh From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Thu Jun 19 11:40:55 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? Message-ID: <970619114055.20400f02@wartburg.edu> >> I managed to get DOS 3.3 by finding a game or something that ran on >> DOS 3.3, halting it with Control-C to get to the Applesoft BASIC >> prompt, then using the file commands such as INIT to make a new disk. >> I can't remember if DOS 3.3 has a built-in command that will copy a >> disk... There's probably a way to do it. > >It's not built-in, but the DOS 3.3 distributions have the Intbasic >program COPY which will do what you want. If you've got one of >these crippled II+'s or later that only have Applesoft, you can >still use COPYA. I'm wondering if there's a way to hack code to get it to copy without any System Master programs. I don't remember. I know the easy way out would be just to get the System Master, but now I'm just curious. :) -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jun 19 12:18:55 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: <970619114055.20400f02@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: >I'm wondering if there's a way to hack code to get it to copy without >any System Master programs. I don't remember. I know the easy way out >would be just to get the System Master, but now I'm just curious. :) Of course... call -151, then write a 6502 program to do it :-) If DOS3.3 is resident in RAM it shouldn't be too hard... but I'd rather just use Locksmith 5.0 ttfn srw From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jun 19 12:20:35 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Here are the Tandy 600 specs Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053B1593@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Tandy 600 Introduced: October 28, 1985 CPU: 80C88 RAM: 32K expandable to 224K in 96K increments Display: Flip-up 80x16 LCD Storage: Internal 3.5" 360K floppy (storage only, not bootable) Ports: RS-232 and Centronics parallel Bus: Proprietary for external floppy or "other peripherals" One option ROM socket (accessible by removing Multiplan) that holds BASIC or other ROMs Power: AC adapter, and built-in NiCd batteries Modem: Internal 300 baud Operating System: Proprietary ROM Applications: Built-in System Manager, Word, Calendar, File, Telcom and Multiplan BASIC: Optional ROM cartridge Keyboard: 72-key Pricing: Base system $1599 BASIC ROM $129 96K RAM upgrade $399 From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jun 19 12:31:44 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Rockwell AIM 65 ad Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053B15B4@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> From william at ans.net Thu Jun 19 12:47:35 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: DEC RL02K DC Disk Pack In-Reply-To: <33A81003.3327@rain.org> Message-ID: <199706191747.AA07493@interlock.ans.net> > A friend of mine wants to get rid of a bunch of DEC RL02K Disk Packs. > He has about 24 or so without boxes and another 6 or so still in the > original DEC shipping box. The one I have here says "BC-AV02G-BC, RT-11 > update G bin RL02" and the date is 1986. These disk packs are about 14" > or so in diameter. Anyone have any idea what these might be worth or > who would be interested? My guess is somewhere around $5 each but I > really don't have any idea. Thanks. Where are they? William Donzelli william@ans.net From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 13:14:00 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: DEC RL02K DC Disk Pack References: <199706191747.AA07493@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <33A976E8.4952@rain.org> William Donzelli wrote: > > > A friend of mine wants to get rid of a bunch of DEC RL02K Disk Packs. > > He has about 24 or so without boxes and another 6 or so still in the > > Where are they? > Right now they are in my garage as he needed to get more space in his classroom. If you mean what geographical area are they in, I am in Santa Barbara, California. From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 19 13:29:36 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970619112943.4acf8aee@ricochet.net> At 12:12 AM 6/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >> If they're shipped to the bay area, I've got lots of boxes and packing >Uh, but what of us here on the other coast (where the devices are to start >with)? (I'm in the same area code, actually). Damn, but I wish I was Oh, sure, keep 'em there before distributing them. *Don't* send 'em across the country before sending 'em back. Go ahead, be normal. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 19 13:29:38 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970619112945.4acfa3c4@ricochet.net> At 07:38 AM 6/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >> standard (IIRC). Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drives Okay, I dug up where I got that idea from (ACM/Computer Museum Computer Bowl, 1994, Round 3, Toss up question #6): "6. The Victor 9000 computer featured an innovative design in its disk drives. What was unique about the disk drives?" and the answer was: "6. Variable speed" So in between reading that, and now, "innovative" transmogrified into "first of its kind". Sorry about that! >That's how it gets 21 sectors on tracks 1 to 17, 20 sectors on tracks 18 >to 24, 18 sectors on tracks 24 to 30, and 17 sectors on tracks 31 to 35. I thought the idea of variable speed drives was to have the same number/sized sectors on each track? Perhaps I goofed there too... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 19 13:29:46 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Good Emulators & floppies (was: C64 CP/M carts (was:...)) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970619112956.4acffe6a@ricochet.net> At 10:29 AM 6/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >"Evil Empire?" == Use the Farce, Duke! == First, if you have an Atari ST, >(and I think TOS 1.4 or above... getting my ST next weekend! Wheeeee! ;-) >it can read/write/format PC floppies. The atari ST could always (well, production models on, anyway) read/write PC floppies. Formatting, however, was initially a problem. It seems there's an unused field somewhere in the admin stuff on a pc floppy that Atari figured didn't matter. So they left it blank. But, for some reason, IBM machines needed some value in there. (I'm probably way oversimplifying, and making errors...) So floppies formatted on the atari worked fine on the atari, but if you wanted to use the floppy on both machines, you needed to format it on the PC (or use a third party formatter that fixed the problem.) Some later version of TOS (1.4?) fixed this. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 19 13:29:59 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970619113006.4acffc4c@ricochet.net> At 05:10 PM 6/19/97 BST, you wrote: >I really don't see the interest in emulators if the real hardware still >exists. I'd much rather have the real thing, and have all the fun of >maintaining it, than have a piece of software (probably without source) >running on a PC that I can't get spare chips for. Perhaps it's because I'm >a hardware hacker, but emulators seem to lack so much compared to the >phyusical machine. Perhaps it's because you have a bigger apartment? I know a lot of folks running ST emulators on PC's because they wanted both, but didn't have the room... "lack so much compared to the physical machine..." yeah, 2nd ps, 2nd keyboard, 2nd monitor... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 19:36:26 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970619113006.4acffc4c@ricochet.net>; from "Uncle Roger" at Jun 19, 97 11:29 am Message-ID: <199706191836.20643@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > At 05:10 PM 6/19/97 BST, you wrote: > >I really don't see the interest in emulators if the real hardware still > >exists. I'd much rather have the real thing, and have all the fun of > >maintaining it, than have a piece of software (probably without source) > >running on a PC that I can't get spare chips for. Perhaps it's because I'm > >a hardware hacker, but emulators seem to lack so much compared to the > >phyusical machine. > > Perhaps it's because you have a bigger apartment? I know a lot of folks > running ST emulators on PC's because they wanted both, but didn't have the > room... Oh, come on, an ST is _tiny_ compared to the sort of machines I run. I'd have no problem fitting another one into my 'machine room'. Now, if somebody offered me a PDP12, I'd start having problems.. > > "lack so much compared to the physical machine..." yeah, 2nd ps, 2nd > keyboard, 2nd monitor... 8^) The monitor is no real problem. As I mentioned here a month back, there's only about 2 or 3 monitors you need for almost all classic computers. Us workstation fanatics have more of a problem there, of course... Why is the PSU a problem? I guess it's easier over here, where we have 240V and 30A ring-mains with 13A socket outlets (imagine if the standard US circuit was 60A (if you're lucky, _per room_!) and had 26A sockets), but finding somewhere to plug another machine in is not a big problem. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Jun 19 13:40:46 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970619113006.4acffc4c@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 05:10 PM 6/19/97 BST, you wrote: > >I really don't see the interest in emulators if the real hardware still > >exists. I'd much rather have the real thing, and have all the fun of > >maintaining it, than have a piece of software (probably without source) > >running on a PC that I can't get spare chips for. Perhaps it's because I'm > >a hardware hacker, but emulators seem to lack so much compared to the > >phyusical machine. > > Perhaps it's because you have a bigger apartment? I know a lot of folks > running ST emulators on PC's because they wanted both, but didn't have the > room... > > "lack so much compared to the physical machine..." yeah, 2nd ps, 2nd > keyboard, 2nd monitor... 8^) I like my real PDP better than the emulated one. The real one has one feature that E11, and Supnik 2.2, and all the rest can NEVER have that annoys my family to no end - THE EAR-SPLITTING NOISE! :) It drives them Nuts, and I can't get enough of it! There's nothing like powering up the 11/23 and hearing that "Bwaaaaa!" as it all spins up - then it becomes a gentle roar (I don't have a rack or case of it, so it sits out on a table). Everyone leaves, and I'm free to hack alone. Not to mention the emotional satisfaction that you own a piece of history - No matter how big or inefficient the piece! Which was the primary reason I went out of my way to get one. And the reason I kept my CoCo, and my C64. From pcoad at crl.com Thu Jun 19 13:29:46 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: STacy Was: yo In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970618123247.0947dec4@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 11:51 AM 6/17/97 -0700, you wrote: > >IIRC it was a 1040ST motherboard in a laptop case. They come up for > >sale once in a while in the Atari ST news groups. It seems to me > > The last STacy I saw sold went for about $750 -- about a year ago. They > still get close to that; they're still popular with musicians. > You know, that was around the last time I visited any of the ST news groups. Kinda funny how that works. :-) They are holding value pretty well, but then again they are pretty cool. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 19:49:15 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970619112945.4acfa3c4@ricochet.net>; from "Uncle Roger" at Jun 19, 97 11:29 am Message-ID: <199706191849.21265@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I thought the idea of variable speed drives was to have the same > number/sized sectors on each track? Perhaps I goofed there too... Let's go through this logically. Virtually all standard floppy drives (and a lot of 'classic' hard drives) rotate at a cosntant speed, which for the purposes of this discussion I'll take as 300rpm (The speed of a 'standard' low density 5.25" disk). So, the disk takes 0.2s to rotate once. Most controllers write the bits to the disk at a constant rate. There are thus a constant number of bits sent out in 0.2s, and thus a constant number of bits (or equivalently a constant number of sectors of a given constant size) written in one revolution of the disk. However, the outer tracks are longer than the inner ones (a simple matter of geometry). So, data bits on the outside tracks take up more area on the disk than ones on the inner tracks. Now, assuming we only need a constant area to store a single bit, it's obvious that space is being wasted on the longer outside tracks. There are 2 ways rounds this. The one used by Commodore on the 1541 and the 8050 (and AFAIK all other classic Commodore drives) was to keep the disk turning at a constant speed (300rpm IIRC) and to write the data bits faster on the outer tracks. Thus, they could write more data in that constant 0.2s I mentioned earlier. The one used by Victor (I believe, I've not seen a Technical Manual) was to keep the data rate constant, but to slow the disk down when writing to the outside tracks (or equivalently to speed it up on the inner ones). The result was that there was more time to write data to the outside tracks, so (at a constant data rate) you could fit more on the disk. In neither case was the number of sectors per track constant (obvious if you require all sectors to be of the same size, which makes writing the file system a lot easier). > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 19:52:06 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: ; from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 19, 97 1:40 pm Message-ID: <199706191852.21343@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > I like my real PDP better than the emulated one. The real one has one > feature that E11, and Supnik 2.2, and all the rest can NEVER have that > annoys my family to no end - THE EAR-SPLITTING NOISE! :) It drives them > Nuts, and I can't get enough of it! There's nothing like powering up the > 11/23 and hearing that "Bwaaaaa!" as it all spins up - then it becomes a Hmmm... Try an 11/45 + 2 expansion boxes + 8 demountable drives + PERQ1 as a terminal for an ear-splitting noise. There must be at least 30 fans in that system, probably more :-) And then there's the waste heat. A few years ago we had a 'heat wave'. The temperatures were well above the maximum specified in the DEC manuals. The 11/45 carried on running as if nothing was wrong, but alas I didn't.... -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 19 15:14:34 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: <970619114055.20400f02@wartburg.edu> from "Andy Brobston" at Jun 19, 97 11:40:55 am Message-ID: <9706191914.AA26513@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1036 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970619/ea2c96f5/attachment.ksh From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Thu Jun 19 14:20:36 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? Message-ID: <970619142036.20401744@wartburg.edu> >> I'm wondering if there's a way to hack code to get it to copy without >> any System Master programs. > >Oh, sure. Just take a look at the description of the RWTS >(Read - write - track/sector) routines >in the Apple _DOS 3.3 Manual_. (You know, the one with the Disk ][ >and controller schematics.) You could probably come up with a >basic sector duplicator using a dozen lines of BASIC, sprinkled >liberally with PEEKs, POKEs, and CALLs. I could do it if I was at home, but I don't have all the manuals at college with me. So, I'm attempting to rely on memory (I'm pretty sure I've done something like this with RWTS before). I know a lot of times, instead of using the boring INIT command to format a new disk, I would use the RWTS version just for kicks. Too bad you really can't have as much fun with new computers. :) -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 19 14:11:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Collector Article Message-ID: Here's an article Doug Coward forwarded to me. You guys will get a kick out of it, especially the price list at the end. $200-$400 for an Apple ][...yeah right. I have some property on the moon... Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass 02490420 60320 THE CUTTING EDGE A Byte of History Techies Taking a Scroll Down Memory Lane Los Angeles Times (LT) - MONDAY August 12, 1996 By: GREG MILLER; TIMES STAFF WRITER Edition: Home Edition Section: Business Page: 1 Pt. D Story Type: Main Story; Infobox Word Count: 1,797 TEXT: The nerds are getting nostalgic. Barely 20 years into the personal computer revolution, techies across the country are growing increasingly sentimental about the machines and programs that changed their lives and ushered in the Information Age. For them, booting up a vintage Commodore PET computer can conjure misty-eyed memories. Toggling the switches of an Altair 8800 is better than gripping the gearshift of a first car. And a shrink-wrapped copy of VisiCalc software beats a mint-condition Mickey Mantle baseball card any day. This is the memorabilia of the PC generation, and after spending much of the last decade or two collecting dust in suburban garages from Silicon Valley to Boston's Route 128, it's starting to make a comeback. Virtual museums of vintage hardware and software are sprouting up all over the Internet's World Wide Web, as are online classified ads placed by collectors desperate to reacquire the technological wonders of their youth. Some rare PCs are fetching much higher prices now than they did when they were brand-new, and even revered institutions such as the Smithsonian are bolstering their computer collections. "The amount of activity that I see is amazing," said Kip Crosby, president of the Computer History Assn. of California in Palo Alto. "People are always asking me: 'Can you find me an Altair? Can you find this or that?' I get 10 to 20 phone calls and e-mails a month, twice as many as a year ago." Most of these early machines and programs, which didn't work very well when they were new, are even more troublesome to maintain now--and have been rendered obsolete by wave after wave of new equipment. But like certain cars or baseball cards, high-tech relics are somehow enhanced by the passage of time. Collectors see them as the symbols of a more colorful computer age populated by legendary personalities who became billionaires--or, in some cases, went bust. "That's why I'm interested in computer history," said Co Ho, 30, an Internet administrator at Fullerton College. "Many people could have made it big, but they fell asleep and ended up having somebody else eating their cake." Ho collects vintage software, especially programs that changed the computing landscape but somehow faltered. One of his favorite pieces is CP/M, an early operating system created by Digital Research. CP/M might have become the operating system had Digital Research's founder, the late Gary Kildall, been more hospitable when IBM came calling to license his software. In a legendary blunder, Kildall and his wife refused to sign IBM's confidentiality agreement, and IBM executives took their business to a then-tiny company known as Microsoft. "CP/M missed the boat because of casual behavior," Ho said. "It's really a sad story." Ho is one of the few people who collect software. More collect hardware, and one of the most sought-after machines is the Altair 8800, introduced by MITS Inc. of Albuquerque in 1975. It didn't have a keyboard or a monitor, only rows of switches on the front of the box. The Altair kit sold for $395 when it was new, but one in good condition today can fetch as much as $1,500 because of the exalted position it holds in computer history. Widely regarded as the first mass-market personal computer, it launched a craze when it appeared on the cover of the January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics. Bill Gates even dropped out of Harvard to develop an early version of the Basic programming language for the Altair. The Altair "established Bill Gates in business," said Gwen Bell, founder of the Computer Museum, a Boston mecca for computer lovers. "One of our prize treasures is the original Basic tape that Bill Gates developed on the Altair." Collectors tend to pass over some of the most popular early machines, such as the original IBM PC and the 1984 Apple Macintosh, because there are just too many of them. Scarcity counts, which helps explain why the most valuable collectible is the Apple I. Introduced by Steven Jobs and Stephen Wozniak in 1976, the Apple I was nothing more than a circuit board. It had no keyboard, no monitor, not even a case. It sold for $666, and only a few hundred were produced. A well-preserved Apple I can fetch as much as $12,000 today, sometimes more. An Apple I signed by Jobs and Wozniak sold for $22,000 at a fund-raiser auction for the Computer Museum several months ago, Bell said. That kind of appreciation has attracted the attention of even non-techie collectors. "I got a call from an investment advisor for a Wall Street banker," Bell said. "He asked: 'Should I get him into collecting old computers? Will they increase in value more than art?' I said, 'I don't know--I'm not a dealer.' " In fact, there aren't any prominent dealers of antique computers, at least not yet. But a few collectors are hoping to change that, including David Greelish, founder of the Historical Computer Society in Jacksonville, Fla. Greelish, a computer repairman, has spent about $2,600 in recent years building a collection of 35 computers, mostly by trolling for bargains on the Internet. He uses search engines such as Yahoo to root out online classified ads for Altairs and other vintage machines, and he keeps an eye on alt.folklore.computers, a newsgroup where history buffs hang out. "Ultimately, I would like to see (the Historical Computer Society) grow and publish magazines and books," he said. "I'd like to start displaying our collection and even restoring computers for sale." Greelish and others said would-be collectors should look for machines that look clean, have all the original equipment and documentation and still run. A number of guidebooks are available, including Stan Veit's "History of the Personal Computer," published by WorldComm in Asheville, N.C., and "A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators," published by Krause Publications in Iola, Wis. Experts urge caution, however. There's no guarantee that old computers will grow in value, and they are very difficult to maintain. "If you've never opened up your computer and looked inside, this is probably not the collectible for you," Bell said. Instead, experts say, this is a hobby better left to people who were enthralled by the recent PBS documentary "Triumph of the Nerds," people who still have a soft spot for monochrome terminals, "Chiclet" keyboards and the odd shapes of the early machines. But even among techies, there are plenty of people who scoff at this new fad, including Kim Nelson, service manager at ACP Superstore in Santa Ana. Founded 20 years ago, ACP is one of the oldest computer stores in Southern California, holds swap meets that attract legions of collectors, and might be one of the region's best unofficial museums. The store's top shelves are crammed with artifacts of computer history, although Nelson calls it junk. "Isn't it amazing that we have computer folklore now," he said, walking with a reporter along rows of vintage Commodores, Imsais and Tandys. "That's kind of sad when you think about it. Seems to me there are things that are a lot more important." But as he uttered those words, service technician John Krill walked by and surveyed the line of creaky machines. Almost against his will, Nelson was sucked into an episode of technology reverie. "Look at that Kaypro," Krill said. "That company grew so fast they were warehousing their inventory in tents." "Weren't they the ones that had the fire too?" asked Nelson, perking up just a bit and eager to demonstrate his techno-trivia prowess. The conversation drifted from machine to machine. "When I was in college, I would just leave my Osborne up in the library," Krill said with a laugh, recalling the immobility of the first portable computer. "The damned thing weighed 27 pounds. I didn't want to lug it around." Fifteen minutes passed before the two realized that their walk down memory lane might have strained the attention span of their guest. "That's enough, John," Nelson finally said with an embarrassed grin. "You're boring him." Greg Miller can be reached via e-mail at greg.miller atimes.com (BEGIN TEXT OF INFOBOX / INFOGRAPHIC) Computer Collectibles Here are some of the PCs attracting the attention of nostalgic techies: Model: Apple I Year introduced: 1976 Original price: $666 Current value: $10,000-$12,000 * Model: Mark-8 Year introduced: 1974 Original price: $250 Current value: $3,500-$4,000 * Model: Scelbi 8H Year introduced: 1973 Original price: $440 Current value: $1,200-$1,500 * Model: Altair 8800 Year introduced: 1975 Original price: $395 Current value: $1,200-$1,500 * Model: Imsai 8080 Year introduced: 1975 Original price: $440 Current value: $400-$600 * Model: Apple II Year introduced: 1977 Original price: $1,195 Current value: $200-$400 * Model: Osborne I Year introduced: 1981 Original price: $1,795 Current value: $200-$300 Descriptions: Apple I: With no monitor, no keyboard and no case, the Apple I was little more than a circuit board. Only a few hundred were produced. Mark-8: A kit computer that was the subject of the first magazine article describing how to build a computer. The article appeared in Radio Electronics Magazine in 1974. Scelbi: Predated the Altair and was the first computer based on a microprocessor advertised for sale. Only a small number was made. Altair 8800: Programmed by switches, the Altair 8800 had no keyboard, no monitor and just 256 bytes of memory. But it is widely regarded as the first mass-market personal computer. The Altair, based on an Intel processor, started a craze when it appeared on the cover of Popular Electronics magazine in January 1975. Imsai 8080: Modeled on the Altair, the Imsai had several technological advances and a more polished look. Had no keyboard or monitor but was briefly the fastest-selling personal computer. Apple II: This is the machine that launched the company--and the personal computer industry. Apple II computers came with a keyboard, monitor and two disk drives. Most important, they ran VisiCalc, the original spreadsheet program that was the personal computer's "killer application." Osborne I: Considered the first portable computer, even though it weighed about 30 pounds and was the size of a suitcase. It had a 5-inch screen, two floppy disk drives and 64K of RAM. Sources: Stan Veit's "History of the Personal Computer," published by WorldComm, Asheville, N.C.; David Greelish, president, Historical Computer Society, Jacksonville, Fla.; "A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators," published by Krause Publications in Iola, Wis. AL SCHABEN / Los Angeles Times From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jun 19 14:38:19 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: A Report: "Why I Like Emulators" In-Reply-To: <199706191610.10894@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619153819.00a77100@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: >I really don't see the interest in emulators if the real hardware still >exists. I'd much rather have the real thing, and have all the fun of >maintaining it, than have a piece of software (probably without source) >running on a PC that I can't get spare chips for. Perhaps it's because I'm >a hardware hacker, but emulators seem to lack so much compared to the >phyusical machine. For me: Speed & functions, pure and simple. Altho I'm designing my CoCo3 benchmark to see just how many Mhz-like CoCo my P150+ makes, think about this scenario: This cycle takes me 10-20 minutes(depending on # of changes) on my real CoCo3: Boot assembler/editor from disk, load program, make changes to program, assemble program in mem, <--| correct errors if necessary, --| save program, assemble program to disk, reboot machine (to start with clean slate), set up environment (clear ML memory, etc.) LOADM program, EXEC program, Watch Program die, lock up system (this is ML, you know ;-), reboot machine again, to recover from lockup, start cycle over. On my P150+ with emulated floppies on the hard drive, and the emulator also has the ability to save a snapshot of your entire environment, this cycle has been reduced to 1-4 minutes (depending on number of changes) making ML programming worthwhile (no thumb-twiddling) and I plan on writing some ML proggies for my wife & kids to use that I can burn into eprom and set up on a CoCo for them. Roughly guesstimating, I now have a 40 Mhz CoCo3 sitting on my hard drive at home... :-) Also, I plan on getting a CD-RW (that's re-writable!) within the next two weeks, and I plan on archiving all my software on CD-R... cain't do that on a CoCo! ;^> HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 20:44:43 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: A Report: "Why I Like Emulators" In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970619153819.00a77100@mail.northernway.net>; from "Roger Merchberger" at Jun 19, 97 3:38 pm Message-ID: <199706191944.23082@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: > > >I really don't see the interest in emulators if the real hardware still > >exists. I'd much rather have the real thing, and have all the fun of > >maintaining it, than have a piece of software (probably without source) > >running on a PC that I can't get spare chips for. Perhaps it's because I'm > >a hardware hacker, but emulators seem to lack so much compared to the > >phyusical machine. > > For me: > > Speed & functions, pure and simple. Altho I'm designing my CoCo3 benchmark > to see just how many Mhz-like CoCo my P150+ makes, think about this scenario: I think we're rather missing each other's points here. There's nothing at all 'wrong' with using an emulator as an aid to writing software or whatever to run on a classic computer. I know plenty of people who've used the PDP11 emulator to do just that. And I used one of the PDP8 emulators to try things on when I was rebuilding some bits of my 8/e. But too many people (not on this list, thankfully :-)) seem to regard the emualtor as a _replacement_ for preserving the hardware. This is what I commenting on... > > This cycle takes me 10-20 minutes(depending on # of changes) on my real CoCo3: On the ground that I have the world's slowest PC, I suspect my CoCo 3 would in fact be faster than the emulator. Add an 6809 In-circuit emulator (no, I don't have one yet, but I'm looking...) and I _know_ it would be faster. > Also, I plan on getting a CD-RW (that's re-writable!) within the next two > weeks, and I plan on archiving all my software on CD-R... cain't do that on > a CoCo! ;^> Give me one good reason why not? It should be _trivial_ to use a 5380 or something like it to make a SCSI cartridge for the CoCo. Add an OS-9 device driver and you should be able to burn CDs.... > > HTH, > "Merch" -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jun 19 14:51:26 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Here are the Tandy 600 specs In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053B1593@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619155126.009cf9f0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Kai Kaltenbach said: >Tandy 600 > >Introduced: > October 28, 1985 FYI: Mine was built in September, 1985, so I would imagine they would need some time to ramp up production for the introduction. >Storage: > Internal 3.5" 360K floppy > (storage only, not bootable) Not bootable, 'cause it boots from ROM. BTW, SSDD 80 Track, 9SPT. >Ports: > RS-232 and Centronics parallel >Bus: > Proprietary for external floppy or "other peripherals" I'm at work, 600 at home (awaiting new internal nicads...) but unless Tandy or Zenith (OEM) designed a floppy-port-based whatever, the external floppy port is a 1-for-1 pinout of a standard floppy interface... so you can hook up either a 3.5" or 5.25" floppy, provided it's 80 tracks or more. (That means I could hook up my 2" floppy, if I designed an interface cable, as it only has a 22-pin cable (all standard signals, plus power... just need to align the signals.) > One option ROM socket (accessible by removing > Multiplan) that holds BASIC or other ROMs >Power: > AC adapter, and built-in NiCd batteries AC adapter is 8V DC, 1.5A, IIRC. (hafta look when I get home...) >Modem: > Internal 300 baud >Operating System: > Proprietary ROM It's called HH/OS, (Hand-Held Operating System... tho I doubt you'd call the 600 a hand-held!) and it was produced by MicroSoft. >Applications: > Built-in System Manager, Word, Calendar, File, > Telcom and Multiplan >BASIC: > Optional ROM cartridge >Keyboard: > 72-key > >Pricing: > Base system $1599 > BASIC ROM $129 > 96K RAM upgrade $399 Didn't the Basic ROM originally cost $139.95, or did it go up from original? (I'll have to look that one up in my '89 catalog...) Tandy still sells the ROM, and they still want $120 for it!!!!! :-( HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com Thu Jun 19 14:59:26 1997 From: clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com (clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: the wonderful sound of big iron Message-ID: <97Jun19.131345pdt.32272@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> dseagrav @ bsdserver.tek-star.net wrote: >I like my real PDP better than the emulated one. The real one has one >feature that E11, and Supnik 2.2, and all the rest can NEVER have that >annoys my family to no end - THE EAR-SPLITTING NOISE! :) It drives them >Nuts, and I can't get enough of it! There's nothing like powering up the >11/23 and hearing that "Bwaaaaa!" as it all spins up - then it becomes a >gentle roar (I don't have a rack or case of it, so it sits out on a >table). Everyone leaves, and I'm free to hack alone. Not to mention the >emotional satisfaction that you own a piece of history - No matter how big >or inefficient the piece! Which was the primary reason I went out of my >way to get one. And the reason I kept my CoCo, and my C64. Has anyone who has their mini collection displayed on a web page put the *sound* of their machines on the net? I especially love the sound of those big fans and hard drives powering up. Whenever I get around to fixing up my 11/730, I'll definitely have to get a recording of it powering up: from the turn of the key, to the ratcheting sound of the TU58 microcode boot tape, to the sound of the LA-120 printing terminal printing the 'enter date and time' prompt. Actually, I don't have the LA-120, but remember the sounds. Clark Geisler Test Engineer Nortel From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu Jun 19 14:57:30 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 88 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Thomas Christopher Jarvis wrote: > Would somebody please unsubscribe me from this list? Thank you. Nope. Sorry - this is not a full-service listserve ;). You can unsub yourself - follow the instructions below. Bill ClassicCmp Regular Posting Mailing Lists and How to Talk to the List Robot Last Rev: 5/2/97 This message is posted with frequency proportional to subscription rate (or monthly). Point of contact: Bill Whitson (bcw@u.washington.edu) Mailing List Basics A mailing list is a simple device which takes an e-mail and redistributes it to a group of people. People can add and remove themselves from the distribution list by Subscribing and Unsubscribing. When you send a message to the list, it is first examined by the robot for key words that tell it to process an automatic funtion (like help, subscribe, unsubscribe, etc). If the message does not contain a keyword it is sent to the distribution list. How to Talk to the Robot There are a few List Processor commands that you might want to use. To send a command to the list processor, write a message to listproc@u.washington.edu (Do NOT send the message to classiccmp@u.washington.edu). In the body of the message (not the subject line, that is) write one of the following commands, then send the message. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL ACK Tells the robot to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. This is the default. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL NOACK Tells the robot NOT to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. I don't recommend this. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST Tells the robot to send you a digest of messages rather than each as it is posted. With this option you will get a weekly bundle of messages and keep a nice, tidy in-box. SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Subscribes you to the list. UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Removes you from the list. That's the basics. If you need to know more just drop me a line at bcw@u.washington.edu. Some requests may take a couple days as I just don't know that much about the list processor ;). From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Jun 19 15:02:12 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 In-Reply-To: Marvin's message of Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:34:14 -0700 References: <33A8D2E6.2DA2@rain.org> Message-ID: <199706192002.NAA06735@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Marvin writes: > It seems every time I turn around, I find something else I either > haven't seen in a while, or don't know anything about it. In this case, > I picked up a brand new Digilog 1500 some number of years ago. It is > not on the "Big List" so does anyone know anything about this? I seem I wonder if this is the same Digilog that made the Digilog 600 that is sitting in my office at work. It is not a general-purpose computer, but instead a serial line analyzer: one of those things that you plug in between two uncooperative serial communications devices to divine the nature of their uncooperativeness. It's also got a breakout box built in, and you can tell it's portable because it's got a handle (think Osborne 1 for some idea of its arm-lengthening properties, though). And a 3.5" stiffy drive for saving and replaying traces. I last used it in 1995, and have moved it along with me to different offices because no-one else wants it. It works well enough for what it is, but it doesn't understand IP, SLIP or PPP-in-HDLC at all. That is the sort of stuff we need to look at these days and we have better tools for doing that. -Frank McConnell From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 19 14:25:23 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: <199706191308.IAA21041@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Bill Girnius wrote: > You do need the system disks in order to make copies of disks. No you don't. You need any copy program, of which there were hundreds written for the Apple ][. Locksmith 5.0 and above had the fastest disk copier program, plus it could copy "copy-protected" disks. So could Copy ][ Plus. Those were the two most popular. COPYA, which is the disk copy program on the system disk, is a farce compared to these programs. Sure it does the job, but if you can find either Locksmith or Copy ][ Plus, that's the better choice, along with the other hundreds of disk copy programs put out (I wrote several myself). > > ---------- > > From: Sam Ismail > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Subject: Re: Apple ][e software? > > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 1997 8:50 PM > > > > On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > > > > > Greetings: > > > > > > I just picked up an Apple ][e, monitor, disk drives, the whole works... > > > even a mouse! But, I am wondering if someone out there might be able to > > > sell me a copy of the Disk Operating System disks and maybe one or two > > > (more?...) game disks? > > > > > > Please get in touch with me at the below address, e-mail, or phoen > number, > > > if you might have something like that which I could use to get the > system > > > going. > > > > Cord, forget about the system disks. You don't actually need them. The > > Apple was the kind of computer where you could use it with or without > > disks, although having software made it more useful. Each disk for the > > apple is self-contained and has whatever DOS it needs to run it. Your > > main concern right now is to get software for it, whatever that may be - > > games, utilities, productivity, etc. Find the apple users group near you > > > (if there is one) or go to comp.sys.apple where you will find a ton of > > information on how and where to obtain apple software. Its not hard to > > find, there were literally tens of thousands of titles published for the > > Apple ][. If you've never had an Apple before, you want to go out and > > start collecting ssome of the games released for it, as there are some > > fun titles. But as far as system disks, if you want to round out your > > collection, then I guess you would want an original copy just to say you > > have them, but every Apple I ever got was second-hand, and I already had > > software from the previous apple I was upgrading from, and having the > > original system disks was a moot point, as there were so many other more > > useful disks to have. > > > > Sam > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, > Jackass > > Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 15:15:54 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Collector Article References: Message-ID: <33A9937A.1FF9@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Here's an article Doug Coward forwarded to me. You guys will get a kick > out of it, especially the price list at the end. $200-$400 for an Apple > ][...yeah right. I have some property on the moon... > > > The Altair kit sold for $395 when it was new, but one in good > condition today can fetch as much as $1,500 because of the exalted > position it holds in computer history. Widely regarded as the first > mass-market personal computer, it launched a craze when it appeared on > the cover of the January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics. Bill Gates > even dropped out of Harvard to develop an early version of the Basic > programming language for the Altair. > I'm not sure but I suspect $1500 would be a VERY good buy. Someone that contacted me recently said that they had sold their Altair for $3000. Another story I heard (true?, I don't know) was that someone advertised their Altair on the net for $4000. This person was flamed for asking so much, and his only comeback was that it had already sold. There was a reference in TCJ by one of the editors(?) that they wouldn't be surprised by the price reaching $10,000. BTW and I think most of you can do this, if you really want to get a rise out of people, just tell them you have several million dollars worth of equipment at your home/storage area/whatever. After their "no way" or "where do you live" response, just tell them all they have to do is take the stuff back in time to when it was new and sell it to get the money! Sorry, I just have a perverted sense of humor :). From s-ware at nwu.edu Thu Jun 19 15:31:34 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Collector Article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Here's an article Doug Coward forwarded to me. You guys will get a kick > out of it, especially the price list at the end. $200-$400 for an Apple > ][...yeah right. I have some property on the moon... > This seems to be the article that kicked off the "$10,000 Osborne 1" thread on Usenet (a.f.c.? comp.os.cpm?) a few months ago. IIRC, the prices listed for Apple equipment in "A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators" are quite high, possibly since the book was published several years ago when there was a larger educational market for Apple II systems. Since this book was cited in the article, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the source of these prices. Of course, original Woz Integer BASIC Apple ][ systems aren't nearly as common as ][+ and //e systems. I'd imagine that there are quite a few people who would pay $200 for one, especially if it were posted for sale on AuctionWeb and described as "really rare and valuable". Then again, there are probably also quite a few people who would pay $200 for a //e if it were posted on AuctionWeb and described as "really rare and valuable". -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 19 16:22:07 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Collector Article In-Reply-To: <33A9937A.1FF9@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 19, 97 01:15:54 pm Message-ID: <9706192022.AA17042@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1145 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970619/f3e2e309/attachment.ksh From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jun 19 15:31:04 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: A Report: "Why I Like Emulators" In-Reply-To: <199706191944.23082@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <3.0.1.32.19970619153819.00a77100@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619163104.009bd100@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: >> >I really don't see the interest in emulators if the real hardware still >> >exists. I'd much rather have the real thing..... >I think we're rather missing each other's points here. There's nothing at >all 'wrong' with using an emulator as an aid to writing software or >whatever to run on a classic computer. I know plenty of people who've used >the PDP11 emulator to do just that. And I used one of the PDP8 emulators >to try things on when I was rebuilding some bits of my 8/e. Ah. Now I see... your first comments on that were a bit vague and I didn't know that was the point you were trying to make. >But too many people (not on this list, thankfully :-)) seem to regard the >emualtor as a _replacement_ for preserving the hardware. This is what I >commenting on... Yes, for that, I do agree... emulators are an augmentation and a tool, not a replacement. >> Also, I plan on getting a CD-RW (that's re-writable!) within the next two >> weeks, and I plan on archiving all my software on CD-R... cain't do that on >> a CoCo! ;^> > >Give me one good reason why not? It should be _trivial_ to use a 5380 or >something like it to make a SCSI cartridge for the CoCo. Add an OS-9 >device driver and you should be able to burn CDs.... Reason? OK. 2 words: Buffer Underrun. If you can't keep the buffer of the CD-ROM recorder full, you now have an instant "5-inch Digital Dog Frisbee"(TM) and I don't think a CoCo (8-bit, 1.78Mhz) has enough bandwidth to keep the buffer full -- remember, the CoCo would have to pull the data from a hard drive to put on the CD-R at the same time, plus OS-9's overhead, etc. It would require a dedicated box with lotsa memory & a fast hard drive for the CoCo to send the data to, so the CD-R drive would have data fast enough to burn one... Uhhhh, can you say '486+? (or '040+ for you Mac aficionados) _Reading_ a CD-ROM would be trivial... personally, if there's such a thing as "impossible for a CoCo" burning a functional CD-R is the closest I've ever encountered. HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Thu Jun 19 15:38:13 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: A Report: "Why I Like Emulators" In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970619163104.009bd100@mail.northernway.net> References: <199706191944.23082@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> <3.0.1.32.19970619153819.00a77100@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619213813.00685a54@post.keme.co.uk> At 16:31 19/06/97 -0400, you wrote: >Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: > >>> >I really don't see the interest in emulators if the real hardware still >>> >exists. I'd much rather have the real thing..... > >>I think we're rather missing each other's points here. There's nothing at >>all 'wrong' with using an emulator as an aid to writing software or >>whatever to run on a classic computer. I know plenty of people who've used >>the PDP11 emulator to do just that. And I used one of the PDP8 emulators >>to try things on when I was rebuilding some bits of my 8/e. > >Ah. Now I see... your first comments on that were a bit vague and I didn't >know that was the point you were trying to make. > >>But too many people (not on this list, thankfully :-)) seem to regard the >>emualtor as a _replacement_ for preserving the hardware. This is what I >>commenting on... > >Yes, for that, I do agree... emulators are an augmentation and a tool, not >a replacement. > >>> Also, I plan on getting a CD-RW (that's re-writable!) within the next two >>> weeks, and I plan on archiving all my software on CD-R... cain't do that on >>> a CoCo! ;^> >> >>Give me one good reason why not? It should be _trivial_ to use a 5380 or >>something like it to make a SCSI cartridge for the CoCo. Add an OS-9 >>device driver and you should be able to burn CDs.... > >Reason? OK. 2 words: Buffer Underrun. If you can't keep the buffer of the >CD-ROM recorder full, you now have an instant "5-inch Digital Dog >Frisbee"(TM) and I don't think a CoCo (8-bit, 1.78Mhz) has enough bandwidth >to keep the buffer full -- remember, the CoCo would have to pull the data >from a hard drive to put on the CD-R at the same time, plus OS-9's >overhead, etc. > >It would require a dedicated box with lotsa memory & a fast hard drive for >the CoCo to send the data to, so the CD-R drive would have data fast enough >to burn one... Uhhhh, can you say '486+? (or '040+ for you Mac aficionados) > >_Reading_ a CD-ROM would be trivial... personally, if there's such a thing >as "impossible for a CoCo" burning a functional CD-R is the closest I've >ever encountered. > >HTH, >"Merch" >-- >Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, >Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should >zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. > >O love emulators so much, I have dedicated 1.4 gig to my bbs Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jun 19 15:39:59 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053C2FAD@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? | From: Marvin | Someone that | contacted me recently said that they had sold their Altair for $3000. Whom? | Another story I heard (true?, I don't know) was that someone advertised | their Altair on the net for $4000. This person was flamed for asking so | much, and his only comeback was that it had already sold. If this happened, it had to have been before 3/95, since there is no reference to it in DejaNews. | There was a | reference in TCJ by one of the editors(?) that they wouldn't be | surprised by the price reaching $10,000. I agree, though it's going to take a few years. People tend to acquire items that they wanted when they were in high school or college. Those people are now in their early forties, and that syndrome doesn't really get going full steam until 50-60 (my father, with 7 Corvettes, is a perfect example). I'd put the Altairs at $10K+ in 10 years. They sky's the limit in 20 years, maybe $100K (all in today's money of course). One reason for the expected price skyrocket is the number of people like me (and several others on this list) who acquire them and will never sell them, thus depleting the market. Kai From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 19 14:30:56 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > IIRC, it in fact does _not_ have a serial port! There was a serial card > available using the proprietary expansion bus. Good luck finding one of > those now. > > My memories are actually of the 1000HX, which I believe was basically the > same thing but with 3.5" drive instead of 5.25" (And maybe more RAM?) I recently picked up both a 1000EX and 1000HX from thrift shops. I'll take a look at both for the hell of it and report back what I find out about them. I have some add-on cards for each. Jeff Hellige also has a 1000HX. He might know something about them. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 19 14:37:34 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: <970619113433.20400f02@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Andy Brobston wrote: > I managed to get DOS 3.3 by finding a game or something that ran on > DOS 3.3, halting it with Control-C to get to the Applesoft BASIC > prompt, then using the file commands such as INIT to make a new disk. > I can't remember if DOS 3.3 has a built-in command that will copy a > disk... There's probably a way to do it. No, there wasn't a disk copy command, but if you knew machine language and the RWTS (Read/Write Track Subroutines) of DOS 3.3 you could hack one up in a few minutes. Otherwise, the easier and saner way was to just pop in a disk with a disk copy program and BRUN it. DOS 3.3 was very cool, because it was so accesible and so easy to hack. I used to make my own extensions for it, adding subdirectories and other features to DOS 3.3 that only ProDOS had. ProDOS I thought was lame, because it required more work to do stuff with. It ate up more disk and memory resources, its boot process was longer, and its directory heirarhcy sucked because you could move back a directory without having to type in the full path. (IE. going from /disk/dir1/dir2/dir3 to /disk/dir1/dir2 required you to type PREFIX /disk/dir1/dir2...it got annoying with real deep directories). But it was a definite improvement over DOS as far as interfacing to it from machine language. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jun 19 15:57:18 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Altairs In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053C2FAD@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got >3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? I've got the 680, but you already knew that. ttfn srw From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 16:13:07 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Collector Article References: <9706192022.AA17042@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33A9A0E3.51E3@rain.org> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > I'm not sure but I suspect $1500 would be a VERY good buy. Someone that > > contacted me recently said that they had sold their Altair for $3000. > > Another story I heard (true?, I don't know) was that someone advertised > > Herb Johnson and I have been asking around comp.os.cpm (where any real > Altair user would hang out) and we've come to the conclusion that > these multi-thousand-dollar sale prices are entirely artificial and made up. > Those prices may be artificial, I have no way of knowing since I am not selling mine. As far as an Altair owner hanging out on comp.os.cpm, that may be. However, I do know that I made a few posts there about older computers, collecting, etc. and got zero response. The group here seems pretty knowledgeable about a lot of areas and thus I prefer this group. I read the comp.os.cpm a couple of times a week since there is some good info there, just mostly not about the hardware side of things which is where my interest lies. From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 16:14:12 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053C2FAD@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33A9A124.C11@rain.org> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > I have three. From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 16:16:55 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 References: <33A8D2E6.2DA2@rain.org> <199706192002.NAA06735@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <33A9A1C7.23E2@rain.org> Frank McConnell wrote: > > Marvin writes: > > It seems every time I turn around, I find something else I either > > haven't seen in a while, or don't know anything about it. In this case, > > I picked up a brand new Digilog 1500 some number of years ago. It is > > not on the "Big List" so does anyone know anything about this? I seem > > I wonder if this is the same Digilog that made the Digilog 600 that is > sitting in my office at work. It is not a general-purpose computer, > but instead a serial line analyzer: one of those things that you plug > in between two uncooperative serial communications devices to divine > the nature of their uncooperativeness. It's also got a breakout box > built in, and you can tell it's portable because it's got a handle > (think Osborne 1 for some idea of its arm-lengthening properties, > though). And a 3.5" stiffy drive for saving and replaying traces. > This one doesn't have handles and looks more like the TRS Model IV desktop and like computers. I didn't take a close look last night, but it has at least one full height drive and no 3 1/2" drives that I could see. Since it is new, I *really* wish the docs had come with it! From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jun 19 16:39:34 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053C2FAD@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > > Kai Well... if you are referring to me, I have 5. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 19 18:47:02 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Collector Article In-Reply-To: <33A9A0E3.51E3@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 19, 97 02:13:07 pm Message-ID: <9706192247.AA31377@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 494 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970619/c9f4867e/attachment.ksh From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jun 19 09:10:50 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 19-Jun-97, Scott Walde wrote: >My memories are actually of the 1000HX, which I believe was basically the >same thing but with 3.5" drive instead of 5.25" (And maybe more RAM?) The EX and HX had basically the same innards, though as you mentioned, the HX had two 3-1/2" drive bays above the keyboard, the left one filled with a 720k floppy from the factory. The HX had the same expansion bus as well, and used the same 'PLUS' style cards. It came stock out of the box with only 256k RAM and no DMA capability. The DMA wasn't added until you added the PLUS Memory expansion, which also added a connector for two more PLUS cards. The interesting thing about the HX was that it contained the bare essentials of MS-DOS 2.11 in ROM, which acted as drive C:, or you could also boot straight to Deskmate as well. I've got the Tech Ref manual here for it still, along with the ones for the Model 2000 and Model 4/4P. The HX was the first PC I bought, and it eventually had the PLUS style memory card, serial card, and 1200 bps modem, as well as an external 5-1/4" floppy. I used this system for calling all the local BBS's, and even did all the work in configuring and testing my own BBS on it. I was able to keep the setup of QuickBBS I had small enough to run off just the two floppy drives! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jun 19 09:16:04 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <199706191612.11027@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 19-Jun-97, A.R. Duell wrote: >IIRC, that expansion bus was pin-pin compatible with a stadard 8-bit ISA >connector. It should be possible to kludge up an adapter cable (keep it as >short as possible) to use a normal PC serial card in the EX. Actually, it should be, as I recall a couple companies doing just that so that they could mount small hard disk controllers in the EX/HX expansion area, though the problem then is getting the card to fit. There was even one vendor, called Howard Medical, I believe, that managed to squeeze a hard disk into the 2nd floppy bay. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jun 19 09:21:35 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Good Emulators & floppies (was: C64 CP/M carts (was:...)) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970619112956.4acffe6a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On 19-Jun-97, Uncle Roger wrote: >So floppies formatted on the atari worked fine on the atari, but if you >wanted to use the floppy on both machines, you needed to format it on the PC >(or use a third party formatter that fixed the problem.) Some later version >of TOS (1.4?) fixed this. Yes, it was 1.4, otherwise called 'Rainbow TOS' in the info pop-up, I believe. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jun 19 09:27:16 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 19-Jun-97, Sam Ismail wrote: >I recently picked up both a 1000EX and 1000HX from thrift shops. I'll >take a look at both for the hell of it and report back what I find out >about them. I have some add-on cards for each. Jeff Hellige also has a >1000HX. He might know something about them. Actually Sam, I HAD a 1000HX! I still think it's a nifty machine though, and left what info I could concerning the thread. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jun 19 09:52:44 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Atari XDM121 printer help Message-ID: I just recieved an Atari XDM121 printer, and it appears to work fine, though is in need of a new ribbon. It is a daisy wheel printer, 80 column, and is set up to connect to the Atari 8bit I/O bus. It appears to have been produced in the mid to late 80's since the style of the case and buttons on the front are the same as those of the Atari ST line of computers, and not the earlier 8bit machines (ie. the case is grey and the 3 buttons on the front panel have diagonal vertical lines). My question is about a third connector on the back (the other two being the 8bit I/O bus connectors). This third connector is a modular connector, similar to a RJ-11 phone jack, and it has just two contacts in it. Any ideas on what this might be for? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jun 19 19:32:07 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, James Willing wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? Well, if you guys went to the Classic Computer Encyclopedia and found the machine under discussion and clicked on "Add mine" the appropriate number of times - we would know how many are with us still. BC From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jun 19 19:59:24 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <199706191852.21343@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > I like my real PDP better than the emulated one. The real one has one > > feature that E11, and Supnik 2.2, and all the rest can NEVER have that > > annoys my family to no end - THE EAR-SPLITTING NOISE! :) It drives them > > Nuts, and I can't get enough of it! There's nothing like powering up the > > 11/23 and hearing that "Bwaaaaa!" as it all spins up - then it becomes a First - glad you could make it Dan! > Hmmm... Try an 11/45 + 2 expansion boxes + 8 demountable drives + PERQ1 as > a terminal for an ear-splitting noise. There must be at least 30 fans in > that system, probably more :-) > > And then there's the waste heat. A few years ago we had a 'heat wave'. The > temperatures were well above the maximum specified in the DEC manuals. The > 11/45 carried on running as if nothing was wrong, but alas I didn't.... Second - I love the noise! It sounds like a jet engine warming up - only it takes longer 8-) Also - What waste heat???? I run my 11/23 to keep the basement warm and toasty. And now with my second, I can probably do away with the furnace this winter 8-) And they are underrated for the temperature spec - but wait until one goes - It's sad see 8-( as most of the chips seem to go all at once. BC From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jun 19 19:35:49 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: NEC PC 8201A Accessory? In-Reply-To: References: <33A777E6.425A@rain.org> Message-ID: <11AD591B3F2E@ifrsys.com> Marvin: What you have there is a break-out box for AMPS cellular telephones. You put the box between the phones handset and tranceiver unit, and you can tap into the audio circuits of the phone. In the early days of cellular radio, any phone that was listed as "AMPS complete" could be used with the handset of any other phone likewise listed. This was done to give third-party equipment supliers the opportunity to make custom accessories that would work with a variety of phones. The 1985 seems to confirm that this was used for testing these "AMPS complete" cellular phones (they were about all that was available then). The computer probly had some test software on it, to send commands to the tranceiver. BTW, interfaces like this were also used with cellphones as system diagnostic tools for cellular networks, to analyze coverage areas and call quality. The amps complete phone is almost non-existent today. Most (if not all) now use a proprietary communication scheme between the handset and tranceiver. Most phones for sale today, as you know, don't even have this connection; the tranceiver and handset are all one unit. The true "AMPS Complete" phone is a bit of a classic in of itself! Jeff P.S. = Mod = Modulator RSSI = Receiver Signal Strength Indicator NRZ = Non-return to Zero data used by the phone for control. Bit Clock = Recovered clock for the above datastream > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 01:54:17 -0500 (CDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Brett > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: NEC PC 8201A Accessory? > X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > I have another strange device. This one is called a Channel Tester, > > Ser. No. 55263, and a date of 1985-4. It has a series of BNC connectors > > on the face labeled "Tx Audio", "RX Audio", "Spk", "Voice Tx Test", > > "Voice Rx Test", "Mod", "Disc", "RSSI", "NRZ Data", and "Bit CLock". I > > got it attached to an NEC PC 8201A (as I recall) TRS-80 Model 100 > > clone. It also has a male and female Centronix interface plugs on the > > side away from where it attaches to the 8201A. Does anyone have any > > idea what this thing is? Thanks! > > Are they 50 pin Centronics? If they are, it could be a telephone tester. > The Centronics port (at 50 pins) would take a "whip" and let you test > all the lines on a PBX or straight telephone cable. > > If they are 36 pin Centronics I really don't know what used NRZ encoding > in the early 80's except tape drives - or maybe its a tester for a radio > land line from studio to tramsmitter - it does have the Mod-ulation BNC > connection. > > Other than that - I'm stumped 8-) Who made it - NEC? > > BC > > From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 20:56:24 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:58 2005 Subject: NEC PC 8201A Accessory? References: <33A777E6.425A@rain.org> <11AD591B3F2E@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <33A9E348.27AE@rain.org> Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > Marvin: > > What you have there is a break-out box for AMPS cellular telephones. > You put the box between the phones handset and tranceiver unit, > and you can tap into the audio circuits of the phone. > Thanks MUCH for the information! I have seen that box a number of times and was really curious what it was. When I got the NEC 8201A, there was no software or docs with it. It has been so long ago that I can't even remember where the unit came from. At least I know what it is now! From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 21:04:20 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Collector Article References: <9706192247.AA31377@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33A9E524.50CC@rain.org> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > selling mine. As far as an Altair owner hanging out on comp.os.cpm, > > that may be. However, I do know that I made a few posts there about > > older computers, collecting, etc. and got zero response. > > What questions did you ask? From what e-mail address did you > post from? > > Usenet isn't perfect, but there's a lot of information and help > available there just for the asking. And comp.os.cpm is one > of the better newsgroups around for decent technical discussions. > I don't remember, but one question related to whether or not that was the proper group for hardware discussions. BTW, I know it is a good newsgroup, it is just that almost everything I saw (and still see) relates to software with relatively little discussion on the hardware per se. From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 19 21:43:35 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: This mlist is ACTIVE! Message-ID: <33adee06.1106950@smtp.ix.netcom.com> I just subscribed to this mailing list yesterday and am amazed at the traffic. Just today, I seem to have received more than 80 messages! Ben From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Jun 19 21:53:12 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: <33A9A124.C11@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > > > > I have three. > I have none. :( Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From jpw at netwizards.net Thu Jun 19 22:44:47 1997 From: jpw at netwizards.net (John P. Wittkoski) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: TRS-80, etc. Message-ID: >2) 80-Micro, TRS-80 Microcomputing News, Computer News 80, and 80-US >Journal magazines, etc. I think we have every issue of 80-Micro from Issue 1 to sometime in 1989(?) when it became 100% PC based and we let the subscription lapse. We even still have the 1982 (or was it 1983?) special 500+ page Christmas special. I can see if we are willing to part with it if you are interested. Later, --John From tedbird at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 19 22:55:22 1997 From: tedbird at ix.netcom.com (tedbird) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Altairs References: Message-ID: <33A9FF2A.3FFC@ix.netcom.com> Scott Walde wrote: > > On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > >I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > >3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > > I've got the 680, but you already knew that. > > ttfn > srw I've got 3. From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 19 21:19:06 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: <33A9A124.C11@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > > > > I have three. Share the wealth! Each of you send me one! :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 19 23:32:21 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > > > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > > I have three. > I have none. :( Yah. Same number I've got. (well, in all honesty I didn't buy my first system until the TRS-80 appeared -- I'd been doing hardware electronics all through my time in the USAF and I'd gotten tired of burning myself soldering -- the phrase "assembled and tested" was as music to my ears at the time -- and if I'd bought the kits and left them virgin [fat chance] they'd have been lost over the years anyway -- as Franklin said, "Three removes equals one fire" so figure the percentage after twelve changes of residence since 1978). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 19 23:43:44 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > > > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > > I have three. > Share the wealth! Each of you send me one! :) I'm not as greedy as Sam. _One_ of you send me one. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 19 21:31:41 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > My internal floppy seems to be hosed. I can't boot any disks off of it. > > Some bgin to boot but then go to error, others invoke this horrendous > > recalibration that never ends. I assume the drive head is dirty and the > > speed needs calibrating. I wonder if I can calibrate this drive like one > > can the Disk ][? > > Bummer. Is it not possible to use a Disk ]['s drive mechanism with the > ///? Internally or externally? Obviously trying to do so internally > would bring form factor problems, but I'm wondering if it could be done > anyway. I would guess that the controller is compatible with Disk ][ drives, although it would not surprised me if Apple purposely changed the pinouts or used a different connector to thwart anyone attempting to use a ][ drive with the ///. > Thankfully my internal drive works, but I wouldn't mind hooking up a > second drive to it... and the chances of finding a Disk /// lying around > are practically nil. I don't think they made such a beast...did they? > > Doug, if you want I can e-mail NuFX (ShrinkIt) images to you. This would > > be the quickest way for you to get them. You'd need an Apple // running > > shrinkit of course. The disk format between the // and /// is identical. > > That would be great, thanks! I've never used ShrinkIt, but I can at least > get stuff to and from my //e, and I've got two Disk ][s and a 512K RAM > card in it. I'll get ShrinkIt via FTP. ShrinkIt is easy to use. You'll do fine. I'll try to e-mail the images to you in uuencoded format sometime within the next few days (I am busy). > I don't suppose the /// disks are available at some anonymous FTP site > already? It'd be especially cool in .dsk format, as that's how I transfer > all of my ][ software. (I never had a decent terminal program for my > Micromodem IIe, so I wrote a whole disk transfer program and extract > individual files when I have to once the disk image is on my Amiga.) I doubt it. It would be a good thing to do though. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Thu Jun 19 22:19:32 1997 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: References: <33A9A124.C11@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970620131932.009abe90@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 10:53 PM 6/19/97 -0400, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: >On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > >> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >> > >> > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got >> > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? >> > >> >> I have three. >> > >I have none. :( Me too :-( OK, so I've always wanted to post a "Me too" response, and I've finally done it :-) Are there any other Australians on the list, and if so, any pointers to getting an Altair down under? In addition, I'm looking for an Epson PX-8 (aka Geneva). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfas keep me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From kyrrin at wizards.net Fri Jun 20 00:13:17 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: 1 GB SMD Disk drives Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619221317.00f78148@mail.wizards.net> Those of you who own systems that use SMD drives, take note! RE-PC, Seattle, WA, has turned up a quantity (6 or 7) of Seagate 'Elite' series SMD disk drives. These are small ones (physically speaking), in the form of 5.25" full-height. They're brand new, still in their original boxes, and appear to be unused. I know these will go cheap, since SMD is useless to the PC world (thank God!). If these are of interest to you, either drop by RE-PC (if you're in the Seattle or nearby areas -- 1565 6th Ave. S, near the Kingdome), or give them a call at (206) 623-9151. Ask for Steve Hess or Mark Dabek, ask specifically about the Seagate SMD drives, tell them I sent you, and make them a decent offer. Enjoy! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 20 01:01:35 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970619230147.53bf8d7c@ricochet.net> At 07:36 PM 6/19/97 BST, you wrote: >Oh, come on, an ST is _tiny_ compared to the sort of machines I run. I'd >have no problem fitting another one into my 'machine room'. Now, if >somebody offered me a PDP12, I'd start having problems.. There's a reason I'm concentrating on portable computers... 8^) But seriously, I know a lot of people who have small studio apartments, where they *truly* have room for only one computer. >Why is the PSU a problem? I guess it's easier over here, where we have Just that it takes up room... Sometimes every little bit counts! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 20 01:01:37 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970619230149.53bf6e62@ricochet.net> At 07:49 PM 6/19/97 BST, you wrote: >> I thought the idea of variable speed drives was to have the same >> number/sized sectors on each track? Perhaps I goofed there too... > >Let's go through this logically. Doh! It makes perfect sense the way you explain it. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 20 01:01:50 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Collector Article Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970619230202.53bf68a4@ricochet.net> At 03:31 PM 6/19/97 -0500, you wrote: >prices listed for Apple equipment in "A Collector's Guide to Personal >Computers and Pocket Calculators" are quite high, possibly since the book Apple II+ is quoted as $100-$200, the IIe $125-250. The Disk II is listed as $75-150. Haddock's book is way high on some things, (seems) way low on others, and, occassionally, is right on the money. Nonetheless, it *is* interesting, has some nice pictures, and is probably a good reference to have. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 20 01:21:40 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619232140.00fbac0c@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:31 PM 6/19/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > >> > My internal floppy seems to be hosed. I can't boot any disks off of it. >> > Some bgin to boot but then go to error, others invoke this horrendous >> > recalibration that never ends. I assume the drive head is dirty and the >> > speed needs calibrating. I wonder if I can calibrate this drive like one >> > can the Disk ][? Hmmm... if I recall correctly (its been a while), the drives will act quite obstinate if the speed if off more than a bit. Most of the Apple drive mechs (at least as I recall) had strobe disks on the flywheel pulley that you can use to get the speed fairly close. Also, the positioner mechanism on the Apple drives was quite sensitive to the head carriage drive rails getting dirty and binding. You should check to make sure that the carriage is free to travel across the full extent of the guide rails easily. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 20 02:36:33 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Collector Article In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970619230202.53bf68a4@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 03:31 PM 6/19/97 -0500, you wrote: > >prices listed for Apple equipment in "A Collector's Guide to Personal > >Computers and Pocket Calculators" are quite high, possibly since the book > > Apple II+ is quoted as $100-$200, the IIe $125-250. The Disk II is listed > as $75-150. Haddock's book is way high on some things, (seems) way low on > others, and, occassionally, is right on the money. Nonetheless, it *is* > interesting, has some nice pictures, and is probably a good reference to have. Gee, then I have an Apple bonanza worth $2000 in my garage. Whatever. This is what I am dreading of this hobby, that assholes like this Haddock guy start trying to price things out. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From mojaveg at ridgecrest.ca.us Fri Jun 20 05:27:12 1997 From: mojaveg at ridgecrest.ca.us (mojaveg@ridgecrest.ca.us) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: This mlist is ACTIVE! In-Reply-To: <33adee06.1106950@smtp.ix.netcom.com> (from bluesky6@ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong)) Message-ID: <249dab7c.c3513-mojaveg@annex033.ridgecrest.ca.us> Hi Benedict, > I just subscribed to this mailing list yesterday and am amazed at the > traffic. Just today, I seem to have received more than 80 messages! Which is why I'm dropping it. From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Jun 20 05:49:41 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) Message-ID: <199706201046.FAA16083@challenge.sunflower.com> Yes they made and External Disk ///, a joystick /// as well, I have both :) ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) > Date: Thursday, June 19, 1997 9:31 PM > > On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > > > My internal floppy seems to be hosed. I can't boot any disks off of it. > > > Some bgin to boot but then go to error, others invoke this horrendous > > > recalibration that never ends. I assume the drive head is dirty and the > > > speed needs calibrating. I wonder if I can calibrate this drive like one > > > can the Disk ][? > > > > Bummer. Is it not possible to use a Disk ]['s drive mechanism with the > > ///? Internally or externally? Obviously trying to do so internally > > would bring form factor problems, but I'm wondering if it could be done > > anyway. > > I would guess that the controller is compatible with Disk ][ drives, > although it would not surprised me if Apple purposely changed the pinouts > or used a different connector to thwart anyone attempting to use a ][ > drive with the ///. > > > Thankfully my internal drive works, but I wouldn't mind hooking up a > > second drive to it... and the chances of finding a Disk /// lying around > > are practically nil. > > I don't think they made such a beast...did they? > > > > Doug, if you want I can e-mail NuFX (ShrinkIt) images to you. This would > > > be the quickest way for you to get them. You'd need an Apple // running > > > shrinkit of course. The disk format between the // and /// is identical. > > > > That would be great, thanks! I've never used ShrinkIt, but I can at least > > get stuff to and from my //e, and I've got two Disk ][s and a 512K RAM > > card in it. I'll get ShrinkIt via FTP. > > ShrinkIt is easy to use. You'll do fine. I'll try to e-mail the images > to you in uuencoded format sometime within the next few days (I am busy). > > > I don't suppose the /// disks are available at some anonymous FTP site > > already? It'd be especially cool in .dsk format, as that's how I transfer > > all of my ][ software. (I never had a decent terminal program for my > > Micromodem IIe, so I wrote a whole disk transfer program and extract > > individual files when I have to once the disk image is on my Amiga.) > > I doubt it. It would be a good thing to do though. > > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Jun 20 06:01:35 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Apple /// booting and Franklin question Message-ID: <199706201058.FAA16591@challenge.sunflower.com> You need a disk to boot, called "Catalyst" so you still boot from floppy, but the disk initialized the Profile and that's what comes up. I have a working profile, and its missing some of the directories on the menu, anyone know how to edit the menu and stuff? For merely a pre-paid envelop and a disk mailed to me, i'd be wiling to copie the catalyst disk for you. ---------- > From: Kai Kaltenbach > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Apple /// booting and Franklin question > Date: Tuesday, June 17, 1997 6:35 PM > > I think I saw this go by once before on the group, but - > > - How do you get an Apple /// to boot from the ProFile? > > Also: > > - Does anyone consider the Franklin Ace 1000 Apple II clone very > collectible? > > thanks > > Kai From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Thu Jun 19 14:28:55 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count References: <9706191628.AA04295@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33A98877.258B@ndirect.co.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > The IMSAI is in perfect working condition, except for four broken > > plastic switches. By the way, can anyone tell me the address of the > > place that sells the switches? > > Any full-line C&K distributor should be able to order the switches > for you. The part numbers are 7101-J4-Z-Q-E for the data and > address switches, and 7105-J4-Z-Q-E for the momentary-off-momentary > switches. You have to specify which color you want, too: otherwise > you'll get black! > > Onesies-twosies prices for these will run US$7 or $8 each through a > distributor. Obviously, there are some serious quantity breaks > available... :-) > > C&K will also gladly sell you just the plastic keytops. The important > thing to remember when doing this is that the handle style is "J4". > > NKK sells a line of switches almost identical to C&K's, but the > switch handle colors are subtly different. (I can't tell the > difference unless I've got them side-by-side.) > > Tim Shoppa, TRIUMF theory group | Internet: shoppa@triumf.ca > TRIUMF, Canada's National Meson Facility | Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 6446 > 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS | FAX: 604-222-1074 > University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA V6T 2A3 For the benefit of us poor overseas partecipants.....who are C&K ??? Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Fri Jun 20 06:07:14 1997 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) Message-ID: <199706201134.EAA10482@mx2.u.washington.edu> Huw Davies wrote: ---------- > From: Huw Davies > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) > Date: Friday, June 20, 1997 1:19 PM snip > > Are there any other Australians on the list, and if so, any pointers to > getting an Altair down under? In addition, I'm looking for an Epson PX-8 > (aka Geneva). > I'm in Australia (Sydney), been collecting for about 3 years and have never seen or indeed even heard of an Altair existing in Australia. To get one?, obviously offer $10,000 on this list and import it from the USA. Hans From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 20 06:53:27 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <199706191155.3182@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > Uh, I beg to differ about the Victor 9000 being the first computer to use > > variable speed disk drives, as my CBM 2040 dual drive unit from 1979 does > > this. > > No it doesn't (or at least the 8050 doesn't, and nor does the 1541 - I > have service manuals for both of them) > > The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data > clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more > sectors on said tracks. Interesting. I had read that those drives were variable speed, but from a much less reliable source than service manuals. Thanks for the clarification! > I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data > clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle > up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time). Yup, you're right. > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Fri Jun 20 07:29:00 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053C2FAD@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <33A9A124.C11@rain.org> Message-ID: <33AA778C.45B1@ndirect.co.uk> Marvin wrote: > > Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > > > > I have three. I haven't got any but I would like one... -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 20 07:18:31 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970619103340.009ecd20@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: > [snip] > > >The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data > >clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more > >sectors on said tracks. > > > >I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data > >clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle > >up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time). > >-tony > >ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > > Righto, Tony! There are programs that you can get for IBM PC's that do this > and you can store 1.8Megs on a 1.44Meg drive! > > (Didn't the Apple and Amiga do this with there 800K and 880K drives, > respectively?) Not the Amiga, it uses a constant rotation speed and data rate. The Amiga gets the "extra" space on the disk by simply not using sector headers. When a sector is needed, the entire track it lives on is read into a buffer, and when a modification is made the entire track is written back out. The lack of sector headers allows the Amiga to write 11 sectors per track, instead of 9 as with the PC. (In practice, though, I can safely get 12 sectors per track, and I understand it's possible to go higher.) > See Ya, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should > zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 20 07:49:56 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Crap, I really should try harder to keep up in here! On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Everyone, hurry and respond so we can stick a fork in this. 3 people > besides myself and Marvin have already expressed interest. That means > there are about 9 left. If there is still one unspoken for, count me in! I'd rather have a KIM-1, but I wouldn't complain if I got "stuck" with an AIM-65. :) > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 20 08:31:31 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Good Emulators & floppies (was: C64 CP/M carts (was:...)) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970619102950.009db5c0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Doug Spence said: > > >Please stop assuming I've joined the Evil Empire. My only PC compatibles > >are my A1060 Sidecar on my Amiga 1000, which no longer has a 5.25" floppy > >drive as I put a hard drive in its bay, and a Tandy 1000EX, which has no > >way of communicating with anything else that I own because ALL it has is > >a 360K floppy drive. > > "Evil Empire?" == Use the Farce, Duke! == First, if you have an Atari ST, > (and I think TOS 1.4 or above... getting my ST next weekend! Wheeeee! ;-) > it can read/write/format PC floppies. I don't have an ST (yet) but my Amigas (Amigae? :) ) handle PC double- density floppies very well (I've even been able to read MS-DOS formatted Zip disks). Now if only I could find an A1020 5.25" floppy drive for them... > Second, if the EX's drive controller can handle double-sided drives, > replace the SSDD drive with a DSDD one and get 720K storage, and the > capability to read other 720K floppies... That would be cool, and might actually make the EX useful. :) (Though not for reading CP/M disks with 22DISK.) There's something oddly enticing about a PC-clone with 256K and CGA, in a console-style case. (I'm actually quite fond of the EX, even if neglect it most of the time.) > BTW, you mentioned in the original post that you own a 1541 C= drive... > would you like to hook that up to the EX? There's a way to run that drive > thru the serial port, takes a 1 or 2 chip converter board, and I've seen > the dox on this... but I'm not a Commie fan (sorry... had to say that ;^) > but ISTR that the circuit is very similar to the one used to hook up the > Atari 8-bit series drives (810 / 1050 / Indus, etc.) to an IBM as well. Actually, the project I've been wanting to build (and I really should do it now that I have some free time) is the one to connect the 1541 to the Amiga's parallel port. But there's a device that plugs into the (non-classic) A1200's IDE connector that allows use of the 1541, as well as standard PC high density 3.5" drive mechs. I'm considering killing two birds with one stone with that device... but it's so rare that I actually buy NEW hardware . ;) Oh, and the EX doesn't _have_ a serial port. It uses PCB edge connectors anyway, on the ports it does have. I'd need the pinouts for the EX's ports before I'd play with it in that way. > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should > zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 20 08:49:39 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: <970619114055.20400f02@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Andy Brobston wrote: > >It's not built-in, but the DOS 3.3 distributions have the Intbasic > >program COPY which will do what you want. If you've got one of > >these crippled II+'s or later that only have Applesoft, you can > >still use COPYA. > > I'm wondering if there's a way to hack code to get it to copy without > any System Master programs. I don't remember. I know the easy way out > would be just to get the System Master, but now I'm just curious. :) If you have the Apple ][ DOS manual, look up the RWTS subroutine. You can poke the table in from BASIC (I suggest you locate it at location 768 ($300 hex)) and write a BASIC program that uses it to copy disks quite easily (I have done so). > -- > Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** > http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html > My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College > as a whole. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Fri Jun 20 05:11:43 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: References: <199706191155.3182@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199706201411.KAA02599@mail.cgocable.net> > On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > Uh, I beg to differ about the Victor 9000 being the first computer to use > > > variable speed disk drives, as my CBM 2040 dual drive unit from 1979 does > > > this. > > > > No it doesn't (or at least the 8050 doesn't, and nor does the 1541 - I > > have service manuals for both of them) > > > > The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data > > clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more > > sectors on said tracks. > > Interesting. I had read that those drives were variable speed, but from a > much less reliable source than service manuals. Thanks for the > clarification! > > > I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data > > clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle > > up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time). > > Yup, you're right. > That true regeading the mass of the flywheel motor on floppy drives is pretty heavy. Hey, what about the Mac that did still use 4 speed disk drive, you can hear the differences in speeds made clearly by formatting a disk. Jason D. > > -- > > -tony > > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill > > Doug Spence > ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > > > From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Fri Jun 20 05:11:43 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: References: <199706191155.3182@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199706201411.KAA02603@mail.cgocable.net> > > On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > Uh, I beg to differ about the Victor 9000 being the first computer to use > > > variable speed disk drives, as my CBM 2040 dual drive unit from 1979 does > > > this. > > > > No it doesn't (or at least the 8050 doesn't, and nor does the 1541 - I > > have service manuals for both of them) > > > > The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data > > clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more > > sectors on said tracks. > > Interesting. I had read that those drives were variable speed, but from a > much less reliable source than service manuals. Thanks for the > clarification! > > > I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data > > clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle > > up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time). > > Yup, you're right. That's true regeading the mass of the flywheel is massive. But the Mac does uses 4 speed made clearly by rate of spin rate and ticks of head especially clearly heard during the formatting session. > > -- > > -tony > > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill > > Doug Spence > ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > > Jason D. From FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com Fri Jun 20 09:11:00 1997 From: FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com (Faiaz, Michael C. HSD) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Collector Article Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can find equipment accessories for the PC8500 (NEC) laptop? Thanks! Mike ---------- From: Sam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Collector Article Date: Friday, June 20, 1997 3:36AM On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 03:31 PM 6/19/97 -0500, you wrote: > >prices listed for Apple equipment in "A Collector's Guide to Personal > >Computers and Pocket Calculators" are quite high, possibly since the book > > Apple II+ is quoted as $100-$200, the IIe $125-250. The Disk II is listed > as $75-150. Haddock's book is way high on some things, (seems) way low on > others, and, occassionally, is right on the money. Nonetheless, it *is* > interesting, has some nice pictures, and is probably a good reference to have. Gee, then I have an Apple bonanza worth $2000 in my garage. Whatever. This is what I am dreading of this hobby, that assholes like this Haddock guy start trying to price things out. Sam ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- ---- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Jun 20 09:26:29 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > > > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > > I have three. > Share the wealth! Each of you send me one! :) Does anyone still have the PLANS for one? From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Fri Jun 20 10:11:08 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: FS on eBay: Apple, Atari, Commodore Message-ID: <33AA9D8C.740D@oboe.calpoly.edu> I listed a few systems on the auction at eBay this week. Still trying to clean up around here. If interested, please go to the link below for more info or email me with questions. Thanks, Greg Here they are: Pair Apple IIc, IIe Handcontrollers (photo) Current bid: $1.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 12:40:28 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=sfx4367 Commodore 128D System Bidding starts at: $3.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 21:12:47 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=qrk459038 Commodore 64 - White Bidding starts at: $3.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 21:16:04 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=wbj37502 Apple IIC System with External Floppy Bidding starts at: $3.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 21:22:31 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=hxz389 Atari 520ST Computer, Floppy, Mouse, etc Bidding starts at: $3.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 21:26:58 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=czo512 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 20 10:03:45 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Does anyone still have the PLANS for one? Define "plans". I have full sets of the schematics for the units in my collection (as I suspect many do), but if you are talking about the mechanical drawings for things like the case, boards, etc., I am not aware of those ever being made available. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 20 10:07:09 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) Message-ID: <199706201507.AA21042@world.std.com> > Does anyone still have the PLANS for one? Yes but I'd build an imsai! The altair was first but not that nice technically. Also the case, front pannel and many componenets would have to be fabricated. I happen to have a spare case and power transformer. I'd love to get an imsai or 8800b box so I could fully retire(not sell) the altair I have. Allison From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Jun 20 10:14:07 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: <199706201507.AA21042@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > Does anyone still have the PLANS for one? > > Yes but I'd build an imsai! Doesn't really matter which. I just thought it would a neat idea to get plans or something an make one (Just for the hey of it). From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 20 11:32:59 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 20, 97 10:14:07 am Message-ID: <9706201532.AA32071@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1150 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970620/8e3d0cd6/attachment.ksh From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Fri Jun 20 10:45:07 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Vector 3-5030 Message-ID: <33AAA583.4C08@xlisper.mv.com> Does anyone know anything about the Vector 3-5030 from Vector Graphics? Is it considered a collectable? I recently found one at the town dump and brought it home. It displays some sort of ROM monitor screen when it comes up with version number 4.2. It has a dual floppy drive but no software. I assume it is a CP/M machine since one of the boards in the S-100 card cage has a Z80 on it. -- David Betz DavidBetz@aol.com dbetz@xlisper.mv.com (603) 472-2389 From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Jun 20 10:46:01 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: <9706201532.AA32071@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Building an IMSAI (or a TIMSAI, for that matter) is straightforward, > but not something you do just on the spur of the moment. There's > many days of work in laying out the PC boards (it would certainly > have helped if I had a PC-board-specific CAD system when I was laying > out the front panel and motherboard of the TIMSAI!) and a substantial > amount of sheet metal work in cutting, punching, and bending > the chassis parts and the cover. I wouldn't have even considered > the project had I not had access to professional PC-board etching > facilities and a fully equipped sheet metal shop. I know - this will be something I do in Electronics class next year. While everyone else makes an oscillator or something stupid, I'll build an Imsai! From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jun 20 11:47:42 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053FDA7F@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | Does anyone still have the PLANS for one? If you mean schematics, yes. The Altair was built from a kit, not plans. You may be thinking of the Scelbi Mark 8, which was built from plans. Kai From ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu Fri Jun 20 12:42:37 1997 From: ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu (Yujin Nagasawa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: FS: BOOK The History of Computers Message-ID: <199706201738.NAA23361@abel.ic.sunysb.edu> For Sale: The History of Computers -A Family Alubum of Computer Genealogy- by Les Freed ZD press ISBN 1-56276-275-3 all color and lots of pictures and illustrations $12 (shipping included within the United States, original price is $24.95) From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jun 20 13:00:10 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Who was in Australia? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053FDB0E@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Subject: Mint Commodore PET FOR Sale From: "Stephen McCoy and Charmiane Barr" Date: 1997/06/17Message-Id: <01bc7b43$fddee5c0$b8933dcf@charmaine> Newsgroups: aus.computers.amiga[More Headers] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC7B1A.15107EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey all If you are in the market for antique computers and accessories I got one for you--Commodore PET (Slim 25) with a working tape drive and cable. The unit works at its factory best standards as well as the tape drive. If anyone is collecting antique Commodore computer from the seventies/eighties this is a classic machine and there are few left in North America. If you wish to bid on this unit (only serious bids will be received/answered) please write an email to me at the below address and I will get back to you.Thanks for reading and have a good day.-- Stephen McCoy "Quiet"mrsmrx@efni.comWise men are those with an open mind to subjects others are not :] From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 20 13:44:11 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) Message-ID: <33abcdfe.10703696@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Does any one here collect old microprocessors like 4004, 4040, 8008, 8080 etc? The oldest CPU type I have is an NEC 8080A. Still trying to figure out how to make use of it. The legs are pretty corroded (used to live in humid climates). I've a Z8001 too, paid more than $100 for it but never used. Maybe I'll find an Olivetti M20 one of these days... There's a UK company that used to advertise in the UK version of the Elektor 4-5 years ago. They advertised the TI9900, NS32032 and other odd CPUs. Ben From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 20 14:20:05 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) Message-ID: <199706201920.AA04925@world.std.com> > Define "plans". I have full sets of the schematics for the units in my > collection (as I suspect many do), but if you are talking about the > mechanical drawings for things like the case, boards, etc., I am not awar > of those ever being made available. The case was a standard box available at the time. Some of the inside brackets were custom as were the layouts. I've never seen a full printset, and I wonder if there really was. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 20 14:20:22 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Altairs and old stories Message-ID: <199706201920.AA05209@world.std.com> > I know - this will be something I do in Electronics class next year. > While everyone else makes an oscillator or something stupid, I'll build > an Imsai! You laugh, I did something along that line (1971) only it was a solidstate Oscope of my own design. I wanted the class for acces to the tinshop so I could fabricate the steel shields(for the crt) and chassis. If it were three years later it would have been a mark-8! While off the subject... I had a Horizon up in '78 and put the NS* version of the pascal P-system. Since I knew zip about pascal I decided to take a course that used pascal, so happens it was data structures. Blew the proffessors mind when after going on about the 1180 the class would use for assignments I asked if I could use my own system if it conformed to Niklus&wirth. Seems he didn't believe me until I brough the whole mess (left the printer behind) with me the next class and set it up! It was the begining of the revolution as Apples were also just starting to be seen. A year later that declaration of I happen to have a suitable system was no longer an item of skepticism. Sorta like the pocket calc in my EE junior year.... ;-) Allison From chemif at mbox.queen.it Fri Jun 20 14:32:40 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) Message-ID: <199706201932.VAA03199@mbox.queen.it> At 06:57 19/06/97 -0400, you wrote: > >On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, steve wrote: > >> At 06:10 13/06/97 -0400, you wrote: > > > >> >Of course this all assumes that I *have* a PC. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > >Besides, I was talking about CP/M for the Commodore 1541 drive. That's a >multi-speed drive that uses GCR encoding, not MFM. Try writing THAT with >22DISK on your PC-clone. >I used to know that only C=1570 and C=1571 were capable to read and write CP/M disks in a proper way. (GCR+MFM) By the way anyone else apart me owning a C=1570 here? Ciao From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 20 14:52:07 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) Message-ID: <199706201952.AA06984@world.std.com> > The oldest CPU type I have is an NEC 8080A. Still trying to figure out > how to make use of it. The legs are pretty corroded (used to live in > humid climates). I could give you a dozen of them (all pre '80 date code or older!). You need other parts to build a system using it. Minimally you need 8224 clock chip and a 8bit latch or 8228 to get the status signals off the buss. The rest if perpherals and memory. Others from that (pre 1980) era I have: IMSAI IMP-48 (works but, I really need a manual or schematic!!!) circa '79 If you've never seen one it's a small board with relays and opto IO for control use, tty interface, cassette IO led display and keyboard for programming(in hex!). National SC/MP 8a500 cpu(late '78) RCA1802(base cosmac elf 1979, board from the first PE article) 6502(old part) TI9900 chip on board(technico super starter system) moto 6800D1 kit('75-76) LSI-11/03 card that's a tad older them most of those (functional too). I also have a small system using the National nibbleBASIC (8070) chip in 1980. Allison From william at ans.net Fri Jun 20 15:39:44 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: <33abcdfe.10703696@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199706202039.AA18559@interlock.ans.net> > Does any one here collect old microprocessors like 4004, 4040, 8008, > 8080 etc? I tend to snatch up any old chips I can (old being early 1970s). Of course, I have to bend the rules for microprocessors, as very few were released back then. I do not yet have a 4004, but I do have some early types like the 8008, Signetics 2650, Motorola XC6800, and probably quite a few 8080s and derivatives. "Not yet classics" include the AT&T/WE 32000s, Motorola XC88K, early SPARCs, etc. I am still looking for some, namely any iAPX 432 chips, MC68012, and a 4MHz 68000 (probably an XC). William Donzelli william@ans.net From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Fri Jun 20 15:44:56 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <199706201932.VAA03199@mbox.queen.it> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970620214456.006859c0@post.keme.co.uk> At 21:32 20/06/97 +0200, you wrote: >At 06:57 19/06/97 -0400, you wrote: >> >>On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, steve wrote: >> >>> At 06:10 13/06/97 -0400, you wrote: >> >> >> >>> >Of course this all assumes that I *have* a PC. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> >> > >>Besides, I was talking about CP/M for the Commodore 1541 drive. That's a >>multi-speed drive that uses GCR encoding, not MFM. Try writing THAT with >>22DISK on your PC-clone. >>I used to know that only C=1570 and C=1571 were capable to read and write >CP/M disks in a proper way. (GCR+MFM) >By the way anyone else apart me owning a C=1570 here? > >Ciao > >i own a 1570, its a american one with a step down transformer, Its connected to my PC, and guess what, it writes CPM!!! Steve Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Fri Jun 20 16:44:21 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) References: <33abcdfe.10703696@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33AAF9B5.1ACC@ndirect.co.uk> Benedict Chong wrote: > > Does any one here collect old microprocessors like 4004, 4040, 8008, > 8080 etc? > > The oldest CPU type I have is an NEC 8080A. Still trying to figure out > how to make use of it. The legs are pretty corroded (used to live in > humid climates). > > I've a Z8001 too, paid more than $100 for it but never used. Maybe > I'll find an Olivetti M20 one of these days... > > There's a UK company that used to advertise in the UK version of the > Elektor 4-5 years ago. They advertised the TI9900, NS32032 and other > odd CPUs. > > Ben I would like to collect them but I can't find any! If anybody has got contacts please let us know. Thanks -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From timolmst at cyberramp.net Fri Jun 20 16:02:07 1997 From: timolmst at cyberramp.net (Tim Olmstead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Mark 8 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970620160112.27a78c60@mailhost.cyberramp.net> At 06:30 PM 6/18/97 -0500, you wrote: > >On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >> | ---------- >> | From: James Willing >> | Subject: Re: Mark 8 >> | >> | On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: >> | >> | > I need another project :) and I was thinking about building the Mark >> | > 8 computer. Somewhere, I seem to recall that someone was having the >> | > board sets for this computer made up, does anyone out there know >> | > or remember who might be doing this? >> | >> | That would be me... >> >> If you get one of these up and running, I have a Scelbi book, "Space >> Wars for the 8008 Microprocessor" with full hex code listings... > >I also have the three books - > > An 8008 Editor Program > Machine Language Programming for the 8008 > Assembler Programs for the 8008 > >I am such a packrat 8-) > >BC > > Here I go volunteering again. Could those books be scanned/ocr'd? I'm sure that the original authors wouldn't care, even if they did admit to writing them. I have all the hardware and software to do that. I have a softspot in my heart (and my head) for the 8008. That was my first computer. I couldn't afford to buy something like the Mark 8, so I designed, and built it, myself. By the time I was ready to retire it, I had an S100 video card (SSM), and a 9-track tape drive, running one track serial at 5k baud. Used my own designed r/w amps, even. It ran great, just real slow. I still have the CPU chip from that machine, holding down a piece of foam. Seing these posts about the Mark 8 made me nastolgic. If I could get enough data, I might consider building a new machine with that old "first CPU" chip. Today it would look a LOT different. Let's see, what WOULD it look like? Start with a PAL to generate the oddball clocks, and some misc decoding, for it, then throw a 32k skinnydip SRAM at it (OK, you can tie one address line to ground to limit it to 16K), an 8K EPROM (since that's what I've got in stock), say, an 8251 for serial I/O, and you've got a basic machine. What do ya think? Tim Olmstead timolmst@cyberramp.net From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 20 16:03:51 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Vector 3-5030 References: <33AAA583.4C08@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <33AAF037.F01@rain.org> David Betz wrote: > > Does anyone know anything about the Vector 3-5030 from Vector Graphics? > Is it considered a collectable? I recently found one at the town dump > and brought it home. It displays some sort of ROM monitor screen when > it comes up with version number 4.2. It has a dual floppy drive but no > software. I assume it is a CP/M machine since one of the boards in the > S-100 card cage has a Z80 on it. > I guess collectable is in the mind of the beholder, thus I evade the question :). I probably have at least a couple around here along with (I think) the hardware manuals. As I recall, the disk is a 16 hard sectored diskette and the ones I have run CP/M. I have a *bunch* of original Vector Graphic system disks although I don't know if they are all interchangeable between the various Vector Systems. The system I just looked at does not have a floppy disk as part of the terminal but rather has the hard drive and floppy in a separate, single enclosure. From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Fri Jun 20 16:32:33 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Vector 3-5030 References: <33AAA583.4C08@xlisper.mv.com> <33AAF037.F01@rain.org> Message-ID: <33AAF6F1.3004@xlisper.mv.com> Marvin wrote: > > David Betz wrote: > > > > Does anyone know anything about the Vector 3-5030 from Vector Graphics? > > Is it considered a collectable? I recently found one at the town dump > > and brought it home. It displays some sort of ROM monitor screen when > > it comes up with version number 4.2. It has a dual floppy drive but no > > software. I assume it is a CP/M machine since one of the boards in the > > S-100 card cage has a Z80 on it. > > > > I guess collectable is in the mind of the beholder, thus I evade the > question :). I probably have at least a couple around here along with > (I think) the hardware manuals. As I recall, the disk is a 16 hard > sectored diskette and the ones I have run CP/M. I have a *bunch* of > original Vector Graphic system disks although I don't know if they are > all interchangeable between the various Vector Systems. The system I > just looked at does not have a floppy disk as part of the terminal but > rather has the hard drive and floppy in a separate, single enclosure. The machine I have also has the floppies in an external box. Do you have any idea where I could get a copy of the system disk(s)? -- David Betz DavidBetz@aol.com dbetz@xlisper.mv.com (603) 472-2389 From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 20 17:02:47 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:59 2005 Subject: Mark 8 Message-ID: <199706202202.AA20968@world.std.com> > Today it would look a LOT different. Let's see, what WOULD it look like? > Start with a PAL to generate the oddball clocks, and some misc decoding, f > it, then throw a 32k skinnydip SRAM at it (OK, you can tie one address li > to ground to limit it to 16K), an 8K EPROM (since that's what I've got in > stock), say, an 8251 for serial I/O, and you've got a basic machine. Actually a 8ksram and a 8kprom would do it. Or better yet a 2 or 8k EEprom. That this is slow enough you could use the EEprom for sram! (the slow parts was 20us and the real fast one was 10us (single byte instruction). The real annoying part is capturing all the muxed status and syncing it. Making the front pannel logic is the real work, it wouldn't be right without the FP! > What do ya think? Tim, your a sick puppy. It's got style! Allison From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 20 17:05:41 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Vector 3-5030 References: <33AAA583.4C08@xlisper.mv.com> <33AAF037.F01@rain.org> <33AAF6F1.3004@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <33AAFEB5.3C3D@rain.org> David Betz wrote: > > Marvin wrote: > > > > David Betz wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone know anything about the Vector 3-5030 from Vector Graphics? > > > Is it considered a collectable? I recently found one at the town dump > > > and brought it home. It displays some sort of ROM monitor screen when > > > > (I think) the hardware manuals. As I recall, the disk is a 16 hard > > sectored diskette and the ones I have run CP/M. I have a *bunch* of > > original Vector Graphic system disks although I don't know if they are > > all interchangeable between the various Vector Systems. The system I > > The machine I have also has the floppies in an external box. Do you > have any idea where I could get a copy of the system disk(s)? > Why bother with a copy when the original is probably available :). I have quite a few Vector Graphic system disks that were used with the Vector machines. The label indicates (at least this batch of disks) it is the CP/M system for 3032. I don't know off the top of my head if this will work on your system. I suspect it will but maybe someone else can verify that. From william at ans.net Fri Jun 20 17:43:27 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: More DEC stuff to save In-Reply-To: <33A976E8.4952@rain.org> Message-ID: <199706202243.AA24227@interlock.ans.net> If anyone is a DEC collector and in the Chicago area, I have some good news... Johan van Zanten is in possession of a stripped out VAX-11/750 (perhaps good for power supplies and little parts), as well as (I think, memory is a bit hazy) an RL02 and RA81 in a small expansion rack. These two units, of course are quite heavy, but the building they are in does have a very nice loading dock/elevator. He wants to see these things go to a good home. Send him an email if you are interested. William Donzelli william@ans.net From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 20 18:44:02 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Altair 8800 Schematics via www In-Reply-To: <33AAF9B5.1ACC@ndirect.co.uk> from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 20, 97 09:44:21 pm Message-ID: <9706202244.AA03594@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 234 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970620/2c1978c6/attachment.ksh From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 20 19:36:15 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Collector Article Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970620173641.4227beea@ricochet.net> At 12:36 AM 6/20/97 -0700, you wrote: >Gee, then I have an Apple bonanza worth $2000 in my garage. Whatever. >This is what I am dreading of this hobby, that assholes like this Haddock >guy start trying to price things out. I think it's as someone said; at the time the book was written, Apple II's were still in strong demand, esp. from the school market. My girlfriend's school still uses and maintains a fleet of II's. (Schools simply cannot afford to buy lots of new computers.) (Ask me, if you're interested, about how macs ended up in her classroom.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 20 16:52:50 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: This mlist is ACTIVE! In-Reply-To: <249dab7c.c3513-mojaveg@annex033.ridgecrest.ca.us> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 1997 mojaveg@ridgecrest.ca.us wrote: > Hi Benedict, > > > I just subscribed to this mailing list yesterday and am amazed at the > > traffic. Just today, I seem to have received more than 80 messages! > > Which is why I'm dropping it. Sheesh. What a spoil-sport. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 20 20:13:06 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Front Panel IMSAI 8080/ Altair 8800b Turnkey for trade In-Reply-To: <33A92E62.3C38@ix.netcom.com> References: <970618201031_-628125255@emout19.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970620181306.00e117d0@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:04 AM 6/19/97 -0400, you wrote: > >I have a front panel IMSAI 8080 and an Altair 8800b Turnkey for trade. I >would be willing to trade for other computers of equal vintage. I am >especially looking for a Processor Technology Sol. I am interested in >trade only, I will not sell the units. Email me with any interesting >trade offers. Well... I've got a SOL-20 that I might be interested in parting with. What all is in the 8800b turnkey? I've actually got one in the collection, but its missing some parts which is what sparks my interest. Regards; -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jun 20 19:22:44 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: BOOK The History of Computers Message-ID: <199706210114.SAA17033@mx4.u.washington.edu> I'd like to buy. Can I reserve it? Please e-mail me with your address and I'll send you a check. (woukd you prefer money order? some sort of trade? I have scads of old computer stuff.) Manney ---------- > From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > To: Manney > Subject: FS: BOOK The History of Computers > Date: Friday, June 20, 1997 1:52 PM > > For Sale: > > The History of Computers -A Family Alubum of Computer Genealogy- > by Les Freed > ZD press > ISBN 1-56276-275-3 > all color and lots of pictures and illustrations > > $12 (shipping included within the United States, original price is $24.95) > From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 20 17:08:17 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: <33abcdfe.10703696@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > There's a UK company that used to advertise in the UK version of the > Elektor 4-5 years ago. They advertised the TI9900, NS32032 and other > odd CPUs. You could probably go buy a TI99/4a from a thrift store for a few bucks and rip the TI9900 out of it and save a couple bucks off of what Elektor probably sells them for. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 20 20:44:43 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Collector Article In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970620173641.4227beea@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 12:36 AM 6/20/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Gee, then I have an Apple bonanza worth $2000 in my garage. Whatever. > >This is what I am dreading of this hobby, that assholes like this Haddock > >guy start trying to price things out. > > I think it's as someone said; at the time the book was written, Apple II's > were still in strong demand, esp. from the school market. My girlfriend's > school still uses and maintains a fleet of II's. (Schools simply cannot > afford to buy lots of new computers.) (Ask me, if you're interested, about > how macs ended up in her classroom.) Yeah, but an Apple ][ at $200-$400? Maybe they were referring to an enhanced //e, and not the actual original ][. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From foxnhare at goldrush.com Fri Jun 20 22:37:55 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Commodore Variable Speed Drives??? Message-ID: <33AB4C94.4DC8@goldrush.com> References: <199706200702.AAA08312@lists.u.washington.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to burst your bubbles, but the Commodore drives ARE 300 RPM like most of the others, many 1541 flywheels have the speed-calibaration diagram on them (use fluorecent light to determine correct RPM). 154s and the lot have software&hardware to adjust the density on tracks so more data can be stuffed in inner tracks and allow the outer ones to spread out. No special speed involved here. It is because of this that many computers with dumb drives can't read the 1541 format (including Amiga!) the controller cards seem to be limited in this fasion. Thus there is quite a demand for 1541 drivess and (pre-converted) .d64 files in the 64 emulator community. ;) I think all the 5.25" Commodore drives were based on the variable density initiated in the 2040 DOS. My Complete Commodore Inner Space Anthology has differing sector counts on tracks on all the models (4040, 2031, 1541, 8050, 8250/SFD-1001) The hard drives (9060 & 9090) seem to be uniform thoough. Things changed with the 1581 disk (3.5") which uses a variation of the MFM format, and can be readable with PC/Amiga computers (with the proper software, of course.) -- Taking quotes from that LA article on collecting: > Most of these early machines and programs, which didn't work very >well when they were new [IBM PC,MS/DOS], are even more troublesome to maintain now >[Windows 95]--and have been rendered obsolete by wave after wave of new equipment. >[Macintosh, Amiga, NeXT, etc., etc.] Yep, translates to modern-day very well. > Greelish, a computer repairman, has spent about $2,600 in recent >years building a collection of 35 computers, mostly by trolling for >bargains on the Internet. $2,600 for only 35 machines???? Anyone have his address, I have some 64s for him! -- "Altairless" Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From BigLouS at aol.com Fri Jun 20 21:54:09 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) Message-ID: <970620225409_125221841@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-20 18:10:08 EDT > Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > > > > 3... I suggest that a Classic Computer Rescue team head out to Kai's house and rescue two of those Altairs. They could them be put up for adoption and ultimately be given a loving home where they will be receive the INDIVIDUAL care and nurturing that they deserve. :-) Lou From BigLouS at aol.com Fri Jun 20 21:54:08 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: CP/M disk (was Digilog 1500) Message-ID: <970620225404_-1328215343@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-20 03:16:54 EDT, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Hmm. One of my friends got a LOT of apple II stuff from a business that > > went under. One of the things he got was an 8" CP/M disk. I'm gonna go > > try to get my hands on it. (It said CP/M on it). It may be > > destroyed/gone by now. This was a year or two ago, before I got > > interested in old stuff... Any way to tell what system it's for without > > being able to read it? The disk could be for an Apple system. 8" drive controllers where offered for the Apple II line back in 1980 because of the huge (for the time) capacity of DSDD 8" disks. I had a Lobo controller hooked up to a Franklin 1000 and two 8 inchers and it was pretty impressive. I eventually replaced the drives with a 10 meg Corvus hard drive (cost $5000). I've been trying to locate an 8" controller for my Franklin 1000 for quite a while but haven't had any luck. Lou From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 20 22:10:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: (fwd) FS: TI Equipment (fwd) Message-ID: Here's some TI/99 stuff that might interest some people. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Hole In The Wall now offers a small (but growing) selection of TI99/4A parts and equipment as a service to the TI community. Our Web site should be up within 10 days. TI Peripheral Expansion Boxes - $40 TI99/4A consoles (black and silver) - $27.50 (orig. box, manuals, RF) TI RS232 Cards - $40 TI Disk Controller Cards (SSSD) - $20 TI 32x8 Memory Expansion - $25 TI Writer (orig. cart, disk and manual in binder) - $10 Much more to come! Email for more info. -- <= KEITH BERGMAN => The Glass Eye / Hole In the Wall Enterprises PIT Magazine / Chicken Dog kbergman@toltbbs.com "just want a way not to be what gets sold to me" - Jawbox -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 20 22:31:48 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33ab4ac8.2690231@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:08:17 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: % %You could probably go buy a TI99/4a from a thrift store for a few bucks %and rip the TI9900 out of it and save a couple bucks off of what Elektor %probably sells them for. Elektor is a european electronics mag. I was referring to one of the advertisers who claimed to be selling these relatively older CPUs. Anyway, it'd be a shame to rip apart a TI99/4 just for the CPU. Ben From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 20 22:37:16 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: DEC Pro350/380 Message-ID: <199706210337.AA20882@world.std.com> Im looking for a case for the DEC pro380 (same size as 350) as I have a complete board set (cables and even power supply) for it and no case! Allison From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 20 23:50:01 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: <33ab4ac8.2690231@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > Anyway, it'd be a shame to rip apart a TI99/4 just for the CPU. Nah, you rip apart a TI99/4 just for fun. (And revenge on what TI did to stock prices of every other small computer maker back when the fit hit the shan). Of course, I won't do so. My fiancee would not let me die for months if I was to damage one of her sweethearts. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 00:49:49 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) References: Message-ID: <33AB6B7D.5283@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > > > There's a UK company that used to advertise in the UK version of the > > Elektor 4-5 years ago. They advertised the TI9900, NS32032 and other > > odd CPUs. > > You could probably go buy a TI99/4a from a thrift store for a few bucks > and rip the TI9900 out of it and save a couple bucks off of what Elektor > probably sells them for. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Oh, thank you for the suggestion BUT I have SEVEN TI99/4A(s). MYproblem is the 4004 and the 8008 ! enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 01:11:36 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Why? Message-ID: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> What's wrong with this (virtual) "group" ??? Of all the collecting groups I belong to, this is the only one where my (and I suppose other's) public (and private) requests for help have been ignored and (worse) I suspect even opposed. Is there something I don't know? If this the case I would like to know. Thank you. Also your caper to insist on having ALL the items in the collection in working condition is, in my opinion, unique to this group. I can understand (and share) the motivation but surely we (I?) collect for the design point of view and for the historical importance. Don't we? Or am I in the wrong group anyway? Sorry for the frankness but I thought I'd get this one out of my chest before it gets even worse (I am still owed at least 5 replies to my messages) in that I will be banned from this mailing list. Hope not. What is your problem? Hoping to have a straight answer I am Yours sincerely enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 21 00:40:56 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: <33ab4ac8.2690231@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:08:17 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > > % > %You could probably go buy a TI99/4a from a thrift store for a few > bucks > %and rip the TI9900 out of it and save a couple bucks off of what > Elektor > %probably sells them for. > > Elektor is a european electronics mag. I was referring to one of the > advertisers who claimed to be selling these relatively older CPUs. > > Anyway, it'd be a shame to rip apart a TI99/4 just for the CPU. Not really. They're like leaves on a tree. (At least where I'm at.) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 21 00:52:51 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: <33AB6B7D.5283@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > > > > > There's a UK company that used to advertise in the UK version of the > > > Elektor 4-5 years ago. They advertised the TI9900, NS32032 and other > > > odd CPUs. > > > > You could probably go buy a TI99/4a from a thrift store for a few bucks > > and rip the TI9900 out of it and save a couple bucks off of what Elektor > > probably sells them for. > > > > Sam > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > > Oh, thank you for the suggestion BUT I have SEVEN TI99/4A(s). MYproblem > is the 4004 and the 8008 ! Ah shit! An 8008? Sheesh! Just buy a Scelbi 8H and rip it apart for the processor. Those things are like fleas on a dog! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 21 00:51:28 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > > > Anyway, it'd be a shame to rip apart a TI99/4 just for the CPU. > > Nah, you rip apart a TI99/4 just for fun. (And revenge on what TI did > to stock prices of every other small computer maker back when the fit > hit the shan). > > Of course, I won't do so. My fiancee would not let me die for months if > I was to damage one of her sweethearts. Hey Ward, next time I see a $.99 TI I'll buy it and ship it out to you so you can take your frustrations out on it. I'll even stencil in "saTIn" on it so your fiancee will realize it is an *evil* TI and needs excorsizing. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 21 01:08:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: AIM65 (fwd) Message-ID: More information on the AIMs. I am currently working on a bulk deal with Mike for $20 a piece. While these are truly AIMs, they are not "stock" AIMs. They have been altered (really improved). While I think the improvements are very nice, I would've preferred a stock AIM. However, these definitely sound like nice units. Anyway, here's the scoop. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:45:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikeooo1@aol.com To: dastar@crl.com Subject: Re: AIM65 Gentlemen, In response to all the interest so many of you have shown in my Aim 65 collection let me say that they are all in new working condition.The beauty about the Aim 65 is that it was a single board computer which was self contained in that it had its display,printer,and memory all mounted on its board so that peripheral attachments weren't necessary.Yes,it comes with a keyboard and power supply also.I developed a plastic enclosure and metal base and ROM board for the system so the keyboard and power supply could be housed with the Aim in a compact unit and programs could be burned onto eproms which would seat in the ROM board rather than rely on tape storage which involves a recorder hookup and would be quite slow. I didn't like the enclosure or the unwieldy power supply that Rockwell created for the Aim so I had my own plastic enclosure injection molded by a plastics manufacturer. I had a metal base manufactured for the unit so it could be professionally represented as an industrial computer rather than just the "hobbyist's computer" Rockwell originally designed it for.I also have production equipment I developed for creating programs downloading them directly from the Aim into the RAM buffer of eprom burning devices and ultimately housing the programmed eproms in the ROM board I developed which sat on the bottom of the case housing.I have built a successful company around the Aim which is truly an amazing computer and has withstood the test of time as many people are still using it today.As for its value,the unit sold for approx.$450 (computerboard and keyboard) and its part are still in demand today.The display chips alone cost $30 apiece and there are 5 on each display while the print head alone sells for $105,the entire printer about $180. From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 21 00:59:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > What's wrong with this (virtual) "group" ??? Uh, nothing. > Of all the collecting groups I belong to, this is the only one where my > (and I suppose other's) public (and private) requests for help have been > ignored and (worse) I suspect even opposed. Enrico, I sincerely think you concerns are self-conceived. In other words, I don't think your requests have been ignored or opposed. If you feel ignored, it is probably because nobody has an answer for your question. I know how you feel. I get the same way sometimes and I know how frustrating it can be. However, I think this is the only discussion group I know of where I can ALWAYS get an answer for my questions relating to classic computers. Hands down, there is no better resource. As far as being opposed, any such messages you may have read opposing your requests were probably taken the wrong way, and the author perhaps intended it to be funny and not an insult to you. > Is there something I don't know? If this the case I would like to know. > Thank you. We're all as lost as you are. > Also your caper to insist on having ALL the items in the collection in > working condition is, in my opinion, unique to this group. I can > understand (and share) the motivation but surely we (I?) collect for the > design point of view and for the historical importance. Don't we? Or am > I in the wrong group anyway? While it is definitely nicer to have a working system, I'll take the broken ones too, but only if it is something truly rare. I have been lucky in that about 96% of everything I have ever gotten has worked. The fun in collecting is restoring the systems to working condition if they are broken. Its always nicer to have a piece of history that still operates the way it did 10 or 20 years ago. And it's always nicer to be able to actually boot-up an old system and play with it, rather than look at it. > Sorry for the frankness but I thought I'd get this one out of my chest > before it gets even worse (I am still owed at least 5 replies to my > messages) in that I will be banned from this mailing list. Hope not. No such thing, Enrico. We like you. Stick around. One of us ignorant fools will have an answer to one of your questions one of these days. :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 21 02:34:46 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Why? References: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33AB8416.7058@rain.org> e.tedeschi wrote: > > What's wrong with this (virtual) "group" ??? > > Of all the collecting groups I belong to, this is the only one where my > (and I suppose other's) public (and private) requests for help have been > ignored and (worse) I suspect even opposed. > > Is there something I don't know? If this the case I would like to know. > Thank you. > I have found that generally speaking, this group tends to share its knowledge. A lack of responses to questions generally means (at least in my experience here and elsewhere) that nobody has anything useful to contribute to the answer. Perhaps I have missed something, but where would you get the idea that requests for help might be opposed? I have learned a great deal here, and at least so far, feel that I have received far more help than I have been able to provide. > Also your caper to insist on having ALL the items in the collection in > working condition is, in my opinion, unique to this group. I can > understand (and share) the motivation but surely we (I?) collect for the > design point of view and for the historical importance. Don't we? Or am > I in the wrong group anyway? > I only wish that everything I have worked! However a lack of documentation and schematics in some cases make it very difficult to check out if something is working, let alone fix a problem. I think most of what I have works, but again, not everything. Where did the idea that there is an insistance on having "ALL the items in the collection in working condition"? I have only been here a few weeks but have found no indication of such an attitude. > Sorry for the frankness but I thought I'd get this one out of my chest > before it gets even worse (I am still owed at least 5 replies to my > messages) in that I will be banned from this mailing list. Hope not. > > What is your problem? > > Hoping to have a straight answer > In almost all cases, I find it MUCH better to ask about something perceived as a problem rather than let it simmer and finally boil out of control. I am rather curious as to where, or perhaps how, your reaction developed. Banned from a list? I would sure hope not as I haven't even seen a hint of justification for that action. From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 21 02:39:40 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) References: <33abcdfe.10703696@smtp.ix.netcom.com> <33AAF9B5.1ACC@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33AB853C.3042@rain.org> e.tedeschi wrote: > > Benedict Chong wrote: > > > > Does any one here collect old microprocessors like 4004, 4040, 8008, > > 8080 etc? > > > > I would like to collect them but I can't find any! If anybody has got > contacts please let us know. Thanks > -- I have started asking around to find out if anyone has any of these older chips. Most of the people I have asked have worked with these chips but so far no luck. HOWEVER, I still have a LOT more people to ask about them. When I find out something, I'll post it to the Listserver. From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sat Jun 21 03:32:36 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: This mlist is ACTIVE! Message-ID: <33AB91A4.1CA2@oboe.calpoly.edu> I would suggest subscribing to the list in Digest form. One big email message per day and you can skim through to the ones you want to read. Or just delete the whole thing if you're not in the mood (heaven forbid!) > > I just subscribed to this mailing list yesterday and am amazed at the > > traffic. Just today, I seem to have received more than 80 messages! > > Which is why I'm dropping it. > From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 05:37:46 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Why? References: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> <33AB8416.7058@rain.org> Message-ID: <33ABAEFA.1044@ndirect.co.uk> Marvin wrote: > > > Sorry for the frankness but I thought I'd get this one out of my chest > > before it gets even worse (I am still owed at least 5 replies to my > > messages) in that I will be banned from this mailing list. Hope not. > > > > What is your problem? > > > > Hoping to have a straight answer > > > > In almost all cases, I find it MUCH better to ask about something > perceived as a problem rather than let it simmer and finally boil out of > control. I am rather curious as to where, or perhaps how, your reaction > developed. Banned from a list? I would sure hope not as I haven't even > seen a hint of justification for that action. Well, to get more specific, I have the (perhaps wrong) feeling that: a) You are against collectors who collect for the historical importance onyl and are not really worried if the item works or not (as long as all the parts are in there and the thing can be made to work if and when required). I have been ridiculized when I suggested this one way to go about collecting. b) You are against collectors who want ot take out bits and pieces from the systems in order to show them separately (but retaining and perhaps even ehibiting the "crippled" item). I have been refused help in thsi respect when it became apparent I was going to do this. c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. Of course I have no proof of the above but from the short experience I had here, I think that the problem exhists as opposed to the "openess" of other American collecting groups like, for example, the radio collecting community which has been VERY helpful with me and other "foreigners" to buy and export stuff from the USA and CANADA (what about the stuff you ARE importing from overseas then?). I think that if you think I am wrong the best way to demonstrate it, if you care, is not with words but with facts. Thank you for your interest enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From pcoad at crl.com Sat Jun 21 04:39:01 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Who was in Australia? In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053FDB0E@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Subject: Mint Commodore PET FOR Sale > From: "Stephen McCoy and Charmiane Barr" > > Date: 1997/06/17Message-Id: > <01bc7b43$fddee5c0$b8933dcf@charmaine> > Newsgroups: aus.computers.amiga[More Headers] I'll bite on this. How much is one of these worth? I have almost zero experience with PETs having only seen 2 in person. What are the relative rarities of the various models of PETs? Did they make a bunch of them? Are they really common in some places and pretty rare in others? The ones I have seen are pretty cool looking in a retro-future kind of way. Also note that whois reports that efni.com is in Canada. The machine might not be in Australia. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Fri Jun 20 21:32:04 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33ABAEFA.1044@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On 21-Jun-97, e.tedeschi wrote: >c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") >collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that >it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a >deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance >after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody >need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. I think in this case, the thing that chases people away is the sheer cost of shipping these items overseas. Most of it is fairly heavy, and in my experiece of shipping just within in U.S., can be quite costly to ship just about anywhere. At one point I was working on a deal with a gentleman in Australia to get a C-16 with a a lot of original cassette software from him, but he eventually backed out because of the shipping cost, and this was with a very small system. Unless it was quite a rare system, or something you wanted quite badly, it wouldn't likely be worth the total cost, even if it didn't cost anything to actually purchase the item. I myself wouldn't mind adding some of the foreign systems to my collection, but don't for the reasons above. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From danjo at xnet.com Sat Jun 21 06:55:42 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: AIM65 (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > these definitely sound like nice units. Anyway, here's the scoop. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Computer Historian,Programmer,Musician,Philosopher,Athlete,Writer,Jackass > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:45:28 -0400 (EDT) > From: Mikeooo1@aol.com > > for its value,the unit sold for approx.$450 (computerboard and keyboard) and > its part are still in demand today.The display chips alone cost $30 apiece > and there are 5 on each display while the print head alone sells for $105,the > entire printer about $180. Gee, Sam, MY message had a bit more after this part. Did your mailer truncate it accidently? BC From danjo at xnet.com Sat Jun 21 07:04:34 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: <33AB6B7D.5283@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > > > There's a UK company that used to advertise in the UK version of the > > > Elektor 4-5 years ago. They advertised the TI9900, NS32032 and other > > > odd CPUs. > > You could probably go buy a TI99/4a from a thrift store for a few bucks > > and rip the TI9900 out of it and save a couple bucks off of what Elektor > > probably sells them for. > > Oh, thank you for the suggestion BUT I have SEVEN TI99/4A(s). MYproblem > is the 4004 and the 8008 ! I thought the 8008 was developed to go into a terminal. And then the original *user* decided against using it so Intel started hawking it as a micro-cpu. It must hav made it into SOMETHING that was not a computer. Someone mentioned thr front panel of a DEC but it must have been used in some terminals. Anybody know if and which? As I remember the 4004 was actually Intels first micro-cpu and I don't know of any commercial product that used them - but I don't know everything. Any product types and names? BC From danjo at xnet.com Sat Jun 21 07:22:58 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > What's wrong with this (virtual) "group" ??? > > Of all the collecting groups I belong to, this is the only one where my > (and I suppose other's) public (and private) requests for help have been > ignored and (worse) I suspect even opposed. I am speechless. I personally invited you Enrico after your email to me from the Classic Computer Encyclopedia Web Page. If you have been opposed, it must have been in private email as I read just about everything posted on the group. > Is there something I don't know? If this the case I would like to know. > Thank you. Where would I start! 8-) > Also your caper to insist on having ALL the items in the collection in > working condition is, in my opinion, unique to this group. I can > understand (and share) the motivation but surely we (I?) collect for the > design point of view and for the historical importance. Don't we? Or am > I in the wrong group anyway? I think MOST of us here would PREFER to have working systems but then even some of mine don't work ALL the time. You can go ahead and collect ANYTHING you want. Each of us collect for different reasons. I like, I guess the word would be systems. I like whole working systems. I start with something less but then keep building it up until it is a system. If you are more interested in the DESIGN side, I guess it doesn't matter if it works or not. But in MY mind, if it still doesn't work - something was wrong WITH the design 8-) If you want to disassemble units for show - go ahead! > Sorry for the frankness but I thought I'd get this one out of my chest > before it gets even worse (I am still owed at least 5 replies to my > messages) in that I will be banned from this mailing list. Hope not. Huh? How do you get banned from this list? Who owes you replies? > What is your problem? Ditto, my friend. > Hoping to have a straight answer Well, if I could understand the question, it might help. BC From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Sat Jun 21 07:30:11 1997 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) Message-ID: <199706211233.FAA08606@mx5.u.washington.edu> ---------- > From: Paul E Coad > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Who was in Australia? > Date: Saturday, June 21, 1997 7:39 PM > > > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > Subject: Mint Commodore PET FOR Sale > > From: "Stephen McCoy and Charmiane Barr" > > > > Date: 1997/06/17Message-Id: > > <01bc7b43$fddee5c0$b8933dcf@charmaine> > > Newsgroups: aus.computers.amiga[More Headers] > > I'll bite on this. How much is one of these worth? I have almost > zero experience with PETs having only seen 2 in person. What are the > relative rarities of the various models of PETs? Did they make a > bunch of them? Are they really common in some places and pretty > rare in others? > > The ones I have seen are pretty cool looking in a retro-future kind of way. > > Also note that whois reports that efni.com is in Canada. The machine > might not be in Australia. > > --pec > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html Well I'm in Australia and naturally have emailed mrsmrx@efni.com to ask their location. Unlike Altair and Imsai, PETs are obtainable here. I have one chicklet keyboard 4k version, a CBM 3032 and a CBM 8032 hulk. I suspect they will always be around because they are so hard to destroy. The case is very solid. I found the "hulk" in a paddock, like some people find ancient cars! I've never attempted to power this one up though. From danjo at xnet.com Sat Jun 21 07:37:44 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33ABAEFA.1044@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > Marvin wrote: > > e.tedeschi wrote: > > > Sorry for the frankness but I thought I'd get this one out of my chest > > > before it gets even worse (I am still owed at least 5 replies to my > > > messages) in that I will be banned from this mailing list. Hope not. > > > > > > What is your problem? > > > > > > Hoping to have a straight answer > > > > In almost all cases, I find it MUCH better to ask about something > > perceived as a problem rather than let it simmer and finally boil out of > > control. I am rather curious as to where, or perhaps how, your reaction > > developed. Banned from a list? I would sure hope not as I haven't even > > seen a hint of justification for that action. Now that I have read some responses...... > > Well, to get more specific, I have the (perhaps wrong) feeling that: > > a) You are against collectors who collect for the historical importance > onyl and are not really worried if the item works or not (as long as all > the parts are in there and the thing can be made to work if and when > required). I have been ridiculized when I suggested this one way to go > about collecting. I am sure nobody MEANT what was said. There will ALWAYS be two sides. > b) You are against collectors who want ot take out bits and pieces from > the systems in order to show them separately (but retaining and perhaps > even ehibiting the "crippled" item). I have been refused help in thsi > respect when it became apparent I was going to do this. This is not a group problem - this is a person-to-person problem. > c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") > collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that > it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a > deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance > after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody > need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. Well, one way to do it is tell us who! I don't see anything wrong with trying to contact someone on the list via the list if email fails. The number of possible *holes* that email can fall into are more numerous than providers would like to admit. You never know - there might be someone on the list who knows the person and can fill you in to other important info - he when on holiday, he died - oh, all sorts of things can happen 8-) > Of course I have no proof of the above but from the short experience I > had here, I think that the problem exhists as opposed to the "openess" > of other American collecting groups like, for example, the radio > collecting community which has been VERY helpful with me and other > "foreigners" to buy and export stuff from the USA and CANADA (what about > the stuff you ARE importing from overseas then?). Well, I don't know what it would cost to ship to England. I don't think it is a "foreigners" thing - just cost and hassle. You could have one of your radio friends get the part and ship it to you. That would satisfy both parties. > I think that if you think I am wrong the best way to demonstrate it, if > you care, is not with words but with facts. I noticed that you used "foreigner" a lot. I would assume this was impressed upon you from some private email as I have never, to my recollection, seen it used in this group. You might want to expand the explaination - either here in public or in private email. BC From timolmst at cyberramp.net Sat Jun 21 10:08:30 1997 From: timolmst at cyberramp.net (Tim Olmstead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Mark 8 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970621100742.260f19ba@mailhost.cyberramp.net> >Actually a 8ksram and a 8kprom would do it. Actualy what I had in mind was for the EPROM to copy itself into RAM and then switch itself out. THat way, you could have as much, or little, in ROM as you want, and not loos any RAM. >That this is slow enough you could use the EEprom for sram! (the slow parts >was 20us and the real fast one was 10us (single byte instruction). I believe that the fast one was 12.5us wasn't it? That is what I have. > >The real annoying part is capturing all the muxed status and syncing it. > If you've ever done anything with an i960, this is duck soup. >Making the front pannel logic is the real work, it wouldn't be right without >the FP! > My original 8008 system had a home-brew front panel. I would GLADLY do without that and just drop in a monitor ROM this time. >> What do ya think? > >Tim, your a sick puppy. THANK YOU!!!! > Tim Olmstead timolmst@cyberramp.net From william at ans.net Sat Jun 21 10:20:57 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706211520.AA17490@interlock.ans.net> > As I remember the 4004 was actually Intels first micro-cpu and I don't > know of any commercial product that used them - but I don't know > everything. Any product types and names? Fair Radio Sales had 4004 boards for many years (they have not been in the catalog for quite a few years now), so someone used them. For what, I do not know... William Donzelli william@ans.net From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 21 10:44:25 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Why? Message-ID: <199706211544.AA28784@world.std.com> > >c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") > >collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that > >it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a > >deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance > >after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody > >need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. There is the matter of customs which many americans have little experience with. I sent a floppy to someone in canada and despite it being our neighbor the customs paper was amazing! I was told it's worse if there is a transaction involved. Allison From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 21 10:53:48 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Why? References: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> <33AB8416.7058@rain.org> <33ABAEFA.1044@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33ABF90C.5C6D@rain.org> e.tedeschi wrote: > > Marvin wrote: > > > > > In almost all cases, I find it MUCH better to ask about something > > perceived as a problem rather than let it simmer and finally boil out of > > control. I am rather curious as to where, or perhaps how, your reaction > > developed. Banned from a list? I would sure hope not as I haven't even > > seen a hint of justification for that action. > > Well, to get more specific, I have the (perhaps wrong) feeling that: > > a) You are against collectors who collect for the historical importance > onyl and are not really worried if the item works or not (as long as all > the parts are in there and the thing can be made to work if and when > required). I have been ridiculized when I suggested this one way to go > about collecting. > I must have missed that post where you indicated you were ridiculed. As I said in my earlier post, not *everything* in the collection works but I do try to have as much as possible working. Working is not my criteria for saving machines as I have seen VERY little that cannot be repaired. As most of us have said, we collect to save stuff from going to the dump. > b) You are against collectors who want ot take out bits and pieces from > the systems in order to show them separately (but retaining and perhaps > even ehibiting the "crippled" item). I have been refused help in thsi > respect when it became apparent I was going to do this. > I gather you are talking about the 8008 and/or the 4004 microprocessors? I guess that is a matter of individual attitude. Just because an item is not complete, it wouldn't slow me down if I wanted to exhibit it. I take parts from different stuff all the time although I would much prefer to obtain the new parts if possible. > c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") > collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that > it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a > deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance > after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody > need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. > I haven't seen this except for some concern about the costs involved. As far as getting British computers, I would love to do that and don't mind trading. However my reluctance comes only from not having any idea of the cost involved. > Of course I have no proof of the above but from the short experience I > had here, I think that the problem exhists as opposed to the "openess" > of other American collecting groups like, for example, the radio > collecting community which has been VERY helpful with me and other > "foreigners" to buy and export stuff from the USA and CANADA (what about > the stuff you ARE importing from overseas then?). > Also, I think you are being a bit broad with your use of the word "you." There are flaky people in every activity I have ever seen, and I doubt that this one is any different. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 21 12:15:40 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <199706211544.AA28784@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 21, 97 11:44:25 am Message-ID: <9706211615.AA10982@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1465 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970621/c0640015/attachment.ksh From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 11:50:58 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Why? References: Message-ID: <33AC0672.1966@ndirect.co.uk> Jeff Hellige wrote: > > On 21-Jun-97, e.tedeschi wrote: > > >c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") > >collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that > >it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a > >deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance > >after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody > >need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. > > I think in this case, the thing that chases people away is the sheer cost > of shipping these items overseas. Most of it is fairly heavy, and in my > experiece of shipping just within in U.S., can be quite costly to ship just > about anywhere. At one point I was working on a deal with a gentleman in > Australia to get a C-16 with a a lot of original cassette software from him, > but he eventually backed out because of the shipping cost, and this was with a > very small system. Unless it was quite a rare system, or something you wanted > quite badly, it wouldn't likely be worth the total cost, even if it didn't > cost anything to actually purchase the item. I myself wouldn't mind adding > some of the foreign systems to my collection, but don't for the reasons above. > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 This can't be true as the cost of carriage is always beared by the recipient (in this case me). Also I found that if you don't want the stuff quickly (read airmail) it can be surprising reasonable. enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 11:55:25 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) References: Message-ID: <33AC077D.23A3@ndirect.co.uk> Brett wrote: > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > > > > There's a UK company that used to advertise in the UK version of the > > > > Elektor 4-5 years ago. They advertised the TI9900, NS32032 and other > > > > odd CPUs. > > > You could probably go buy a TI99/4a from a thrift store for a few bucks > > > and rip the TI9900 out of it and save a couple bucks off of what Elektor > > > probably sells them for. > > > > Oh, thank you for the suggestion BUT I have SEVEN TI99/4A(s). MYproblem > > is the 4004 and the 8008 ! > > I thought the 8008 was developed to go into a terminal. And then the > original *user* decided against using it so Intel started hawking it > as a micro-cpu. It must hav made it into SOMETHING that was not a > computer. Someone mentioned thr front panel of a DEC but it must > have been used in some terminals. Anybody know if and which? > > As I remember the 4004 was actually Intels first micro-cpu and I don't > know of any commercial product that used them - but I don't know > everything. Any product types and names? > > BC Well, the 4004 for actually designed by Intel for the Japanese firm BUSICOM who wanted to use it (and actually did) in one of their desktop calculators (I will find the model number presently and post it soon). They (Busicom) could have owned the Microprocessor patent but they decided to sell back to Intel all the other rights to research and so Intel dominated the early market. So there enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 12:21:15 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article)] Message-ID: <33AC0D8B.3B0A@ndirect.co.uk> Just by coincidence here is an example I have just received just now (there have been more before I started this debate; I don't that I am paranoid, there is definetely something in this group which is (generally speaking): a) against "displays" (pulling out bits to display etc.) b) Against shipping overseas (cost is no problem as is paid by the recipient) It took my some four e-mail messages to get to this message enclosed here. See what I mean? enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Subject: Re: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:49:49 -0400 Size: 1475 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970621/3d438506/attachment.mht From scott at saskatoon.com Sat Jun 21 12:14:14 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Commodore Plus/4 w/ 1541] Message-ID: <33AC0BE6.1D1FA32F@saskatoon.com> I found this on comp.emulators.cbm ttfn srw -------------- next part -------------- Skipped content of type message/news From scott at saskatoon.com Sat Jun 21 12:15:58 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: [Fwd: C65 - The 2nd] Message-ID: <33AC0C4E.A4279F9@saskatoon.com> Also found this in comp.emulators.cbm ttfn srw -------------- next part -------------- Skipped content of type message/news From djenner at halcyon.com Sat Jun 21 12:43:58 1997 From: djenner at halcyon.com (Dave Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Why? References: <9706211615.AA10982@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33AC12DE.CBD13B7@halcyon.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > I sent a floppy to someone in canada and despite it being our neighbor the > > customs paper was amazing! I was told it's worse if there is a transaction > > involved. > > Was I that one??? I'm still searching for that Compupro RAM23 > manual for you, Allison - I know it's here somewhere!!! (Said as he looks > at a wall stacked with boxes and boxes of documentation...) > > I've had numerous 8" floppies and 7- and 9-track tapes siezed by US Customs > over the years. Their reasoning? If they can't read them, they > can't verify that there isn't anything illegal on them. Besides, > nobody has 8" floppies or open-reel tape drives on "home" computers... > > Tim Shoppa, TRIUMF theory group | Internet: shoppa@triumf.ca > TRIUMF, Canada's National Meson Facility | Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 6446 > 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS | FAX: 604-222-1074 > University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA V6T 2A3 I just sent a DEC Rainbow memory card to the Netherlands. On the customs label I put: "gift", "no value", and "obsolete computer card". We'll see if that gets it through without a hassle. All of these are true--except to a classic computer collector! Dave From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sat Jun 21 15:48:20 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Why? References: <33AC0672.1966@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33AC3E14.3170@unix.aardvarkol.com> e.tedeschi wrote: > This can't be true as the cost of carriage is always beared by the > recipient (in this case me). Also I found that if you don't want the > stuff quickly (read airmail) it can be surprising reasonable. Enrico, True, but it is still a hassle to ship internationally, and it is a lot harder to recoup anything if there is a problem, even if shipping to Canada from the U.S. Also, as a long time user of Usenet, I've noticed that it isn't only those on this side of the Atlantic who don't care to ship overseas...many a for-sale post from Europe states that they wish to ship only within the same general area. Take the post that was just forwarded into this group about the C-65 for sale. As many people can vouch, I for one routinely send stuff to people for just the cost of shipping, and that includes friends overseas. For the most part though, I have had few things I've put up for grabs that I've wanted to get rid of that anyone that anyone outside of the U.S. has thought worth the money and effort to make a deal on. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.goecities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 13:49:42 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Why? References: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> <33AB8416.7058@rain.org> <33ABAEFA.1044@ndirect.co.uk> <33ABF90C.5C6D@rain.org> Message-ID: <33AC2246.1538@ndirect.co.uk> Marvin wrote: > I haven't seen this except for some concern about the costs involved. > As far as getting British computers, I would love to do that and don't > mind trading. However my reluctance comes only from not having any idea > of the cost involved. If you are not in a hurry SURFACE MAIL is surprisingly cheap (but it will take about two months) > Also, I think you are being a bit broad with your use of the word > "you." There are flaky people in every activity I have ever seen, and I > doubt that this one is any different. You are right there. I am sorry but I did not mean any offence. I should have added that I was generalizing BUT I had the impression that this group a more than a fair share of them...and whats more they might have all the rights to be "conservative" with your heritage. However then they should not complain when something similar happens to them. Agreed? -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 13:43:18 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:00 2005 Subject: Why? References: <199706211544.AA28784@world.std.com> Message-ID: <33AC20C6.602D@ndirect.co.uk> Allison J Parent wrote: > There is the matter of customs which many americans have little experience > with. I accept that....but you are such a big country. Isn't it about time you start looking outside and try to understand other cultures? (no offence meant) -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 21 13:19:50 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Why? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970621141828.006a8f88@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 06:43 PM 6/21/97 +0000, you wrote: >Allison J Parent wrote: > >> There is the matter of customs which many americans have little experience >> with. >I accept that....but you are such a big country. Isn't it about time you >start looking outside and try to understand other cultures? (no offence >meant) >-- >================================================================ >Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. >tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile >website >================================================================ >visit Brighton: How quaint. A culture TROLL in a classic computer mailing list. Perhaps you were looking for alt.usa-sucks. At least the subject header now fits. James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 14:59:35 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Why? References: <3.0.32.19970621141828.006a8f88@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <33AC32A7.2CC3@ndirect.co.uk> James Carter wrote: > > At 06:43 PM 6/21/97 +0000, you wrote: > >Allison J Parent wrote: > > > >> There is the matter of customs which many americans have little experience > >> with. > >I accept that....but you are such a big country. Isn't it about time you > >start looking outside and try to understand other cultures? (no offence > >meant) > >-- > >================================================================ > >Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > >tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > >website > >================================================================ > >visit Brighton: > > How quaint. A culture TROLL in a classic computer mailing list. > Perhaps you were looking for alt.usa-sucks. > At least the subject header now fits. > > James > jscarter@worldnet.att.net Is "culture" banned from this site then? (We are getting there in the end....it's a CULTURE clash, is it?) -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 21 14:07:14 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Why? Message-ID: <199706211907.AA23198@world.std.com> > > There is the matter of customs which many americans have little experien > > with. > I accept that....but you are such a big country. Isn't it about time you > start looking outside and try to understand other cultures? (no offence > meant) I worked for several companies that was very good in that respect, Japanese and European. I did exchange information and material on a very regular basis however, it was another person in shipping that took care of details of getting it there. AS an engineer the machanics of those transactions were an inpediment to doing the work! In short you are confusing the mechanics of transaction with cultural interaction. I have had only on case where I got something for the shipping cost and depite care in packaging by the shipper a s100 box was received severely bent! Over a certain weight crating is a must it would appear. I don't have the resources to crate a machine. For me save for that one long distance transaction other than for a floppy, a board or paper/books(small under 2kg) to strictly local transactions withing the driving distance of my old toyota pickup truck. As is, that can prove difficult! Allison From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Jun 21 14:48:10 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: References: <33AB6B7D.5283@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970621124810.00c4d364@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:04 AM 6/21/97 -0500, you wrote: > >As I remember the 4004 was actually Intels first micro-cpu and I don't >know of any commercial product that used them - but I don't know >everything. Any product types and names? The 4004 (1 part of a four chip set) was designed for a desk calculator. It was widely marketed overseas, but I seem to be brain-farting on the name at the moment... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From scott at saskatoon.com Sat Jun 21 14:50:58 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33AC32A7.2CC3@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: Okay, I've been watching this thread with some disgust for a while now. I'm not really sure if i should even bother replying, but i guess i will anyway. It seems to me that the root of this whole thread is that some people don't agree with other people. Is this stating the obvious? Maybe, but it hasn't been addressed. It's a fact in a world as big as ours, with people as diverse as they are, that not everybody is going to agree with everything you think or believe. This in and of itself is not a problem. What is a problem is when I start thinking less of another person because they don't believe the same as I do. I think an example is in order. I have strong religious beliefs. Most of the people I work with don't have the same beliefs that I do. This doesn't mean that they are any less valuable as humans. It doesn't mean that I am superior to them. It doesn't mean that I should respect them less because they think differently than I do. I might even try to convince another person to join my religion/sect/denomination/whatever. If he/she joins me, great. If he/she doesn't, it doesn't mean that he/she is any less of a person or deserves any less respect because of it. Okay, the example is long-winded but I think it applies directly to Classic Computer Collecting. Most of us have political, religous, or moral beliefs. Most of the people on this list have beliefs about Classic Computer Collecting as well. I'm sure for many on this list, computer beliefs rank right up there with the others. It's only natural that a person who believes a classic computer should be kept in operational condition will react negatively to a another wishing to remove the CPU from a functional computer, rendering it non-functional. This person may even try to convince the other to not do it. Does this mean that either of these people is superior to the other? No. They simply believe different things. Back to the religion thing again... If I was giving something away, and a person wanted it to use it for some purpose which I am 'religiously' opposed to (I can't think of a good example off hand) I would probably try to find someone else to take the item. I think that this should be my right. (I do have the right to practice my religion, don't I?) I hope you can see how this applies directly to the computer issue. This is getting to be a much longer email than I had intended, and I could keep going on, but the short of it is: We all have our reasons for collecting (I think someone already said that in this thread) and we shouldn't think we are superior to another because they think differently. This also goes the other way. We shouldn't feel attacked just because someone else doesn't believe the same as we do and maybe even tries to convince us to believe the same as them. I just deleted another three lines... I really should stop here. This mailling list is supposed to be fun. Let's keep it that way. ttfn srw (Sorry about using 'they' and 'them' in singular context. I'm choosing politically correct over grammatically correct :-) From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 21 14:56:21 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33ad30a1.3060915@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On 21-Jun-97, e.tedeschi wrote: >c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") >collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that >it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a >deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance >after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody >need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. I'm probably guilty of ignoring "foreign requests" for equipment because of my perception of the VERY high costs involved. I have a friend who was contacted by a gentleman from the Netherlands regarding a TI-99/4A system my friend was willing to sell. The deal fell through because shipping would be >$200! If you want something I have, I'd be happy to sell it to you but for two problems: cost and I don't have much worthwhile. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 17:21:04 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) References: <33AB6B7D.5283@ndirect.co.uk> <3.0.1.32.19970621124810.00c4d364@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <33AC53D0.7007@ndirect.co.uk> Jim Willing wrote: > > At 07:04 AM 6/21/97 -0500, you wrote: > > > >As I remember the 4004 was actually Intels first micro-cpu and I don't > >know of any commercial product that used them - but I don't know > >everything. Any product types and names? > > The 4004 (1 part of a four chip set) was designed for a desk calculator. > It was widely marketed overseas, but I seem to be brain-farting on the name > at the moment... > > -jim Yes, it is the Busicom 141-PF. You can see a picture of it at: enrico ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 17:30:01 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Why? References: Message-ID: <33AC55E9.5F3B@ndirect.co.uk> Scott Walde wrote: > Back to the religion thing again... If I was giving something away, and a > person wanted it to use it for some purpose which I am 'religiously' > opposed to (I can't think of a good example off hand) I would probably try > to find someone else to take the item. I think that this should be my > right. (I do have the right to practice my religion, don't I?) I hope > you can see how this applies directly to the computer issue. So now the problem is clear...notwithstanding all the previous declaration to the contrary THERE IS a problem of someone being opposed to some other use (and possibly location) of the stuff. I think it is only fair that it is so. What is NOT fair is to try to hide it and find other excuses like...too difficult to pack... to expensive to be worth bothering with it....too much paperwork etc. Ain't we all in the same passion? If not then I would rather not be here. See what I mean? (is this too much cultural for someone?) enrico From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 21 17:19:14 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Vector 3-5030 References: <33AAA583.4C08@xlisper.mv.com> <33AAF037.F01@rain.org> <33AAF6F1.3004@xlisper.mv.com> <33AAFEB5.3C3D@rain.org> Message-ID: <33AC5362.301D@rain.org> David Betz wrote: > > Does anyone know anything about the Vector 3-5030 from Vector Graphics? > Is it considered a collectable? I recently found one at the town dump > and brought it home. It displays some sort of ROM monitor screen when I just had a phone call from an acquaintance who used to work for Vector Graphic. If you have any questions, I can forward them to him. I always find it nice to be able to talk with people that actually worked for the companies who built these classics! From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sat Jun 21 20:36:31 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Printers and Finds of the Week References: <33A4C12B.203A@goldrush.com> <33A4E3CE.44EE@rain.org> Message-ID: <33AC819F.20A3@unix.aardvarkol.com> I found an interesting printer today. It is an SR2000, produced by Sears Roebuck & Company, or at least it has their name on it. According to it's test printout, the date stamp on it is 9/25/86. What makes the printer interesting is that it is a dual-interface model, with both a standard centronics interface, as well as what appears to be the 6pin mini-din for the Commodore 8bit serial interface. Were there any other interfaces that used that connector that it might be? I've found replacement ribbons for it on the web, but no spec info. It's a dot matrix printer with between 7 and 9 pins, and cost me a total of $4 and works great. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.goecities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From zmerch at northernway.net Sat Jun 21 18:51:00 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Why? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970621195058.009995a0@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, e.tedeschi happened to blather: >Scott Walde wrote: While I fully agree with what Scott wrote in his (admittedly longwinded :-) post, I'm not sure if it was stated simply enough.... >> Back to the religion thing again... If I was giving something away, and a >> person wanted it to use it for some purpose which I am 'religiously' >> opposed to (I can't think of a good example off hand) I would probably try >> to find someone else to take the item. I think that this should be my >> right. (I do have the right to practice my religion, don't I?) I hope >> you can see how this applies directly to the computer issue. To put it in 4 words, I believe Scott is saying: "Live and let live." >So now the problem is clear...notwithstanding all the previous >declaration to the contrary THERE IS a problem of someone being opposed >to some other use (and possibly location) of the stuff. I think it is >only fair that it is so. If the problem is clear to you... could you explain it to me? My mind is still dizzy from all this... :-) (Oh, and BTW, would you mind not yelling?) >What is NOT fair is to try to hide it and find other excuses like...too >difficult to pack... to expensive to be worth bothering with it....too >much paperwork etc. Ain't we all in the same passion? If not then I >would rather not be here. Personally, I had no idea that they still "shipped" (pun intended) things on "the Big Pond." I would not have even thought to look for something other than airmail, and I can attest (as I live on the Canada-US border) that Customs can be a right pain in the behind. >See what I mean? (is this too much cultural for someone?) Well, no. Enrico, I do have one question: Are you waiting for someone to say to you: "You're right?" If so, I don't believe you've presented enough evidence to us to judge whether or not you are. I can say that several of the "points" you've tried to make have been very vague and could be interpreted a number of different ways. I've noticed that several people on this list has tried to explain what they percieve to be going on, and I readily admit that I don't know enough about what's going on. However, one thing I do know very well is communication, and there does seem to be a major miscommunication problem here. I for one, would like to see you stay with the list, and yes, there might be the occasional twit on the list as well, but I'm on 5-6 lists (two of which I run), and I must say that I've seen fewer twits on this list than on my others. I have several friends I've met thru e-mail all over the world (and yes, including the U.K... ;-) and I will say that I was offended with you're insistance that this was a "foriegner" issue... This is called the "World Wide Web" not the "U.S. Web." I can also guarantee that no matter what country you visit, you *will* find at least one twit living there. Guaranteed. Enrico, if you can clearly explain your position (with examples, if necessary) to me in private e-mail, I would be more than glad to help you out and would even be glad to act as intermediary between you and anyone else with which there may be a communication problem. Otherwise, I'll go back lurking and I will have no more to say about this thread. (I promise!!! ;^> ) Just my tuppence worth, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From maynard at jmg.com Sat Jun 21 19:17:01 1997 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33AC55E9.5F3B@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: OK folks, I'm a lurker. I've never posted, and I feel ashamed that this message will be my first impression for the rest of this lists members. Enrico, will you please stop whining and say something relevant to this list? I'm a busy man, responsible for an elderly parent and lotsa lotsa expensive Sun hardware... my bosses give me little time to play. I'm here to read about Sym's & Kim's, ELF-II's, Altairs, LSI-11's, TRS-80's... in short, all the computers I grew up with as a kid and have lost because of foolish youth and multiple cross country moves. Can we *please* get back to the fun stuff? PS - when I was fifteen I built a PDP-11 from scrap parts out of DEC dumpsters... I'm sure you can do the same. I've seen this junk at flea markets, in commercial basements left by tennants long forgotten, at garage sales, in open dumps, on the sidewalk on trash day, and still find myself washing coffee grinds off my tee shirts, after a bit of dumpster diving, holding some neat piece of old junk I remember. Go get it like everyone else, by getting dirty and in the thick of it. Stop making an ass of yourself by suggesting that your collector collegues ought to go out of their way to help you for whatever reason. It's simple, if someone wants to help you they will. If not, they won't. If you want to ensure overseas delivery, may I suggest you attempt a business transaction with the seller, and offer him/her a healthy profit? This is one of the best ways of ensuring prompt delivery on your terms. Respectfully, J. Maynard Gelinas On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 22:30:01 +0000 > From: "e.tedeschi" > Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Why? > > Scott Walde wrote: > > > Back to the religion thing again... If I was giving something away, and a > > person wanted it to use it for some purpose which I am 'religiously' > > opposed to (I can't think of a good example off hand) I would probably try > > to find someone else to take the item. I think that this should be my > > right. (I do have the right to practice my religion, don't I?) I hope > > you can see how this applies directly to the computer issue. > > So now the problem is clear...notwithstanding all the previous > declaration to the contrary THERE IS a problem of someone being opposed > to some other use (and possibly location) of the stuff. I think it is > only fair that it is so. > > What is NOT fair is to try to hide it and find other excuses like...too > difficult to pack... to expensive to be worth bothering with it....too > much paperwork etc. Ain't we all in the same passion? If not then I > would rather not be here. > > See what I mean? (is this too much cultural for someone?) > > enrico > From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sat Jun 21 19:31:52 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: References: <33AC55E9.5F3B@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970622013152.006859c0@post.keme.co.uk> Are we not loosing the meaning of this group. Things seen to have got out of hand, and twisted around, the original meaning lost!! Change the subject. Steve Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From josh at netins.net Sat Jun 21 19:41:17 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Printers and Finds of the Week Message-ID: <199706220041.TAA04906@ins6.netins.net> >I found an interesting printer today. It is an SR2000, produced by >Sears Roebuck & Company, or at least it has their name on it. According >to it's test printout, the date stamp on it is 9/25/86. I recently found a Sears Roebuck & Company SR3000, which is oddly enough a RGB/Composite monitor made for the commodore line? Who knows. It even has a speaker in it! Picture is really nice. Made around the same date! Got it for only $10! If I don't use it for an old computer, it is a great way to view the camcorder stuff! Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From djenner at halcyon.com Sat Jun 21 19:50:36 1997 From: djenner at halcyon.com (Dave Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Why? References: Message-ID: <33AC76DC.E6D8081D@halcyon.com> Although I don't necessary agree with the reason for the posting below, I do agree that I would like to see classic computer relevant postings in this group. I have subscribed for about 2 weeks now, and I am finding that the signal-to-noise ratio tends to be low. I have especially been disappointed with many postings that contain unnecessary profanity. But, I just installed Netscape Communicator 4.01 whose Messenger component provides reasonably flexible mail filters. I now have quite a few filters running that instantly delete any mail with profanity, and a few other selective rules, too. So, flame on! I'll never see them now! But, please continue with good, relevant classic computer postings! Dave J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > > OK folks, I'm a lurker. I've never posted, and I feel ashamed > that this message will be my first impression for the rest of this lists > members. Enrico, will you please stop whining and say something relevant > to this list? I'm a busy man, responsible for an elderly parent and lotsa > lotsa expensive Sun hardware... my bosses give me little time to play. > > I'm here to read about Sym's & Kim's, ELF-II's, Altairs, LSI-11's, > TRS-80's... in short, all the computers I grew up with as a kid and have > lost because of foolish youth and multiple cross country moves. Can we > *please* get back to the fun stuff? > > PS - when I was fifteen I built a PDP-11 from scrap parts out of > DEC dumpsters... I'm sure you can do the same. I've seen this junk at > flea markets, in commercial basements left by tennants long forgotten, at > garage sales, in open dumps, on the sidewalk on trash day, and still find > myself washing coffee grinds off my tee shirts, after a bit of dumpster > diving, holding some neat piece of old junk I remember. Go get it like > everyone else, by getting dirty and in the thick of it. Stop making an > ass of yourself by suggesting that your collector collegues ought to go > out of their way to help you for whatever reason. It's simple, if someone > wants to help you they will. If not, they won't. If you want to ensure > overseas delivery, may I suggest you attempt a business transaction with > the seller, and offer him/her a healthy profit? This is one of the best > ways of ensuring prompt delivery on your terms. > > Respectfully, > J. Maynard Gelinas > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 22:30:01 +0000 > > From: "e.tedeschi" > > Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Subject: Re: Why? > > > > Scott Walde wrote: > > > > > Back to the religion thing again... If I was giving something away, and a > > > person wanted it to use it for some purpose which I am 'religiously' > > > opposed to (I can't think of a good example off hand) I would probably try > > > to find someone else to take the item. I think that this should be my > > > right. (I do have the right to practice my religion, don't I?) I hope > > > you can see how this applies directly to the computer issue. > > > > So now the problem is clear...notwithstanding all the previous > > declaration to the contrary THERE IS a problem of someone being opposed > > to some other use (and possibly location) of the stuff. I think it is > > only fair that it is so. > > > > What is NOT fair is to try to hide it and find other excuses like...too > > difficult to pack... to expensive to be worth bothering with it....too > > much paperwork etc. Ain't we all in the same passion? If not then I > > would rather not be here. > > > > See what I mean? (is this too much cultural for someone?) > > > > enrico > > From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sat Jun 21 23:04:52 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Printers and Finds of the Week References: <199706220041.TAA04906@ins6.netins.net> Message-ID: <33ACA464.E20@unix.aardvarkol.com> Josh M. Nutzman wrote: > I recently found a Sears Roebuck & Company SR3000, which is oddly enough > a RGB/Composite monitor made for the commodore line? Who knows. It even > has a speaker in it! Picture is really nice. Made around the same date! > Got it for only $10! That's interesting. This is the first time I've actually seen real computer stuff with the Sears Roebuck name on it, though I knew they marketed thier own version of Pong a while back. If it's RGB/composite with internal speakers, it would match the Commodore-brand monitors in fucntionality. I wonder what else they marketed in this little 'SR' series of computer stuff? > If I don't use it for an old computer, it is a great way to view the > camcorder stuff! Yes, I use my Amiga 1080 monitor for my camcorder or VCR on occasion, as well as using it as the monitor for my Apple ][+ since it's the only composite-input monitor I currently have. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.goecities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jun 21 21:24:38 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Printers and Finds of the Week Message-ID: <970621222437_-1294689156@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-21 21:41:21 EDT, jeff h. wrote < I found an interesting printer today. It is an SR2000, produced by >Sears Roebuck & Company, or at least it has their name on it. According > to it's test printout, the date stamp on it is 9/25/86. What makes the > printer interesting is that it is a dual-interface model, with both a > standard centronics interface, as well as what appears to be the 6pin >mini-din for the Commodore 8bit serial interface. Were there any other >interfaces that used that connector that it might be? I've found >replacement ribbons for it on the web, but no spec info. It's a dot >matrix printer with between 7 and 9 pins, and cost me a total of $4 and > works great. > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > -- >> back around 1991 i had bought the sr3000 model. it's an old 9pin dot matrix printer, and for the most part, seems to be compatible with the epson fx-85. i was able to find replacement ribbons for it at sears also. i was kinda thrilled to see it had a serial port, but then again, it was only for C= models. if anyone needs more info, i still have the owner's manual for mine. as a side note, i had it plugged into my laser128 running GEOS, the mac like interface that ran on the machine but never could get the sr3000 to work, the only driver GEOS had was for the sr2000. david. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sat Jun 21 22:59:11 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Saturday's Finds and a source in Central CA References: <199706210702.AAA01753@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33ACA310.7661@goldrush.com> I finally attended a almost 'near-by' used computer store's "warehouse sale" and was somewhat impressed. The sale is held Saturday mornings in an old nursery greenhouse about 5 miles east of Lodi on Highway 12 (in California) Almost every table is covered with equipment, a good portion seems to be discards from local school districts and others are from who knows where. The good and bad news is much of it has had some share of the elements and are sold as-is, but they are priced to clear. (they were not "out in the open" like some machines you have reported, but almost). The store keeps most of the more-modern usable stuff (PC cards, motherboards, printers, etc.) and leaves behind a lot of Commodore PETs, 64s, Apples, old PCs, etc. Must have seen about 1/2 dozen apple ///s in varying states, even more apple ][s, (from some ][ pluses to a Platinum ][e w/keypad and a couple ][cs), plenty of drives (1541, apple and old hard drives; looking for an older hard drive? make a 'look for' list ready). Lots of monitors (condition unknown as many were from a repair shop that closed; also alot of composite Commodore monitors - 1702s and CM141s). Many PC enclosures (not my area so I didn't look too hard, did see look at a Commodore PC clone though (figures), motherboard still there, but no cards or drives, some older pulled cards in boxes. I did notice at least three Osborne computers, the one I opened to look at was a later model as it didn't have that tiny screen in the center but what looked like an 8" display. Bunch of Jasmine Hard Disk cases (external, backpacks, and clip-on drives) and such for people needing power/cases for projects (some with drives still in em). Also various cables (bunch of IEEE-488), power supplies (commodore 64 was in abundance) some books and other micellany. I didn't see any minis there, but you never know... We came out with: - Educator 64 (a Commodore 64 in a PET enclosure w/monochrome 14" display) computer is dead but it uses a standard 64, so no problem there. ;> - Commodore LP2031 PET/CBM IEEE-488 single drive (a IEEE-488 drive in a 1541 case) seems to be ill but much of the electonics and all mechanicals match the 41, no problem! - Jasmine Removable 45 drive (I am assuming a Syquest 44mb drive, it looks similar) still have to get a cartridge to test, but seems clean and ok. - Commodore 1541-II w/power supply & cable (so far so good) - C= Brick Power Supply (light colored one. still untested) - Sea Wolf & Clowns cartridges for the VIC-20. - 'Commodore' paddles and 'Commodore' joystick - An AC 'muffin' fan (works, now cooling the BBS!) - 6 Commodore books (including three nifty Hofhacker ones published by Elcomp) I left a whole bunch of other VIC & 64 books behind cost $30.00 (I could have walked out with more for the same price, but I was being good) Warehouse Sale: 10400 Highway 12, about 5 miles east of Lodi, 8 am to Noon on Saturdays (if you do go, let them klnow that Larry, the Commodore guy told ya about it!) The computer place is: Allen's To Go, in Lockeford, (209) 727-0477 -- I picked up at a couple thrifts some (soon to be) blank disks, the prices are cheaper than MEI/Micro's bulk pricing, $1 for a box of 10+ 5.25" DS/DD... Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From danjo at xnet.com Sat Jun 21 22:07:20 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Why? And Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > > OK folks, I'm a lurker. I've never posted, and I feel ashamed that this > message will be my first impression for the rest of this lists members. > Enrico, will you please stop whining and say something relevant to this > list? I'm a busy man, responsible for an elderly parent and lotsa lotsa > expensive Sun hardware... my bosses give me little time to play. Let me know the next time you guys *clean out the stockroom!!!!* I am sure you can have some of that *expensive* Sun stuff end up as *worhtless to repair* items after I get done looking it over 8-) > I'm here to read about Sym's & Kim's, ELF-II's, Altairs, LSI-11's, > TRS-80's... in short, all the computers I grew up with as a kid and have > lost because of foolish youth and multiple cross country moves. Can we > *please* get back to the fun stuff? Well, if you want, I could tell you all about my KIM-1 and SYM-1, but ya know, it's not like having one 8-) > PS - when I was fifteen I built a PDP-11 from scrap parts out of DEC > dumpsters... I'm sure you can do the same. I've seen this junk at flea > markets, in commercial basements left by tennants long forgotten, at > garage sales, in open dumps, on the sidewalk on trash day, and still find > myself washing coffee grinds off my tee shirts, after a bit of dumpster > diving, holding some neat piece of old junk I remember. Ahhh, the joys of diving! We could probably get a pretty long thread out of this subject! However, most stories will end up being about the leavings of bodily functions than about neat things we have found 8-( On that topic tho - I got several radios that way, and all my CGA screens where arrived at thru various *scrounging runs* in the dead of night. I can always find some little hunk of an IBM PC that way. And 8" disks. And broken printers - one of my other hobbies is robotics, and you can't beat a printer that got tossed for parts 8-) You should also try to stay informed of regional repair centers. I used to live near a Radio Shack repair center. If they got something repaired but the person never came back for it or didn't want to pay that much for the repair - it went on auction for the repair cost. Most other repair centers do that too. Also keep an eye peeled for companies that are going under. Like J. says, check the closets and basements. Just wait until they move out and then search the dumpster, then afterward, call the landlord and ask to see the office space *for rent* and see if they left anything behind. Don't get excited but say you have a friend/relative who might be able to use *that thing* and pick it up for free right then and there. The guy/gal thinks they are *bonding* the client/sales connection - HA! One problem around here is - if it has a waste sticker on it - it is property of the local government 8-( (So I use the *Midnight Run*) Better than having to landfill it - right? BC From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 21 22:01:38 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33AC55E9.5F3B@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > What is NOT fair is to try to hide it and find other excuses like...too > difficult to pack... to expensive to be worth bothering with it....too > much paperwork etc. Ain't we all in the same passion? If not then I > would rather not be here. But those ARE valid reasons! > See what I mean? (is this too much cultural for someone?) No, but its too much off-topic. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 21 22:00:02 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > Okay, I've been watching this thread with some disgust for a while now. > I'm not really sure if i should even bother replying, but i guess i will > anyway. Ok, this has gotten way out of hand. Can we get back on topic? I joined a fucking listserve so I wouldn't have to put up with off-topic shit. Bill, could you start doing a little regulating please? PS. No offense meant to Scott. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From william at ans.net Sat Jun 21 22:43:17 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: (not) Why? And Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706220343.AA02635@interlock.ans.net> > Ahhh, the joys of diving! We could probably get a pretty long thread out > of this subject! And why not! It is better than all of the complaining lately... Best Dumpster treasure: Cray Y/MP boards. I did not get the goodies, but a buddy did. Apparently one had been decommissioned (and probably sold for scrap), but many of the spare parts were not included in the sale, so they were just thrown away. My personal best was finding a PDP-8/e that was literally thrown away, as in _dropped_ out of the building into the waiting container below. It was missing the bus loads card, so I could not test it. A few years later I found a proper board, and the machine worked with out a problem. DEC makes tough machines. William Donzelli william@ans.net From maynard at jmg.com Sat Jun 21 23:36:02 1997 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: [snip] > > expensive Sun hardware... my bosses give me little time to play. > > Let me know the next time you guys *clean out the stockroom!!!!* > I am sure you can have some of that *expensive* Sun stuff end up > as *worhtless to repair* items after I get done looking it over 8-) > Hehe. This stuff won't be thrown away for several years. However, there are a *lot* of sparc 1s, 2s, and Sun 3/xx equipment floating around out here. I just missed a sparc 2 base for $270 out at the M.I.T. flea two months ago - and I was there, like, at 9am start, and at the table within 15 minutes of opening. Damn! That sucked. Sparc 1s can be had as cheap as $70 bucks base. I know this isn't really on topic for people looking for 4 and 8 bit computers, but you have to admit these kinds of prices are significant considering what this box will do. Where I work has several Sparc 1s and IPC/IPX's floating around still in production. Most of them are bootp servers, X-Terms, or snmp log grabbers. It's amazing that a computer that old is still so useful. > > Well, if you want, I could tell you all about my KIM-1 and SYM-1, but > ya know, it's not like having one 8-) Yup. I seriously thought about the AIM deal that was floating around, but I have an opportunity for an original Apple II. Keyboard works, the system prom boots, but unfortunately he lost the disk controller. He still has the old full height 5 1/4" drive, however. This thing is quite dirty, and a few keys will have to be cleaned carefully with alchol, but it looks good. I'm curious to know if I need to find anything other than the floppy controller. Didn't Microsoft Basic come on a prom card? Or was that on the floppy controller card? Or was there at one point a mixed controller/BASIC card? This guy has the original Interger Basic... cool. > > > PS - when I was fifteen I built a PDP-11 from scrap parts out of DEC > > dumpsters... I'm sure you can do the same. I've seen this junk at flea > > markets, in commercial basements left by tennants long forgotten, at > > garage sales, in open dumps, on the sidewalk on trash day, and still find > > myself washing coffee grinds off my tee shirts, after a bit of dumpster > > diving, holding some neat piece of old junk I remember. > > Ahhh, the joys of diving! We could probably get a pretty long thread out > of this subject! However, most stories will end up being about the > leavings of bodily functions than about neat things we have found 8-( > On that topic tho - I got several radios that way, and all my CGA screens > where arrived at thru various *scrounging runs* in the dead of night. > I can always find some little hunk of an IBM PC that way. And 8" disks. > And broken printers - one of my other hobbies is robotics, and you can't > beat a printer that got tossed for parts 8-) You should also try to stay > informed of regional repair centers. I used to live near a Radio Shack > repair center. If they got something repaired but the person never came > back for it or didn't want to pay that much for the repair - it went on > auction for the repair cost. Most other repair centers do that too. > I can't believe anyone can find 8" disks wihtout having to special order them. What are you checking, sheet metal factories? Now, what are you using to drive the print step motors? Do you have an interface to a PC, or are you going to something more esoteric? Do you machine the skeleton, or build it from parts like an erector set? > Also keep an eye peeled for companies that are going under. Like J. says, > check the closets and basements. Just wait until they move out and then > search the dumpster, then afterward, call the landlord and ask to see the > office space *for rent* and see if they left anything behind. Don't get > excited but say you have a friend/relative who might be able to use > *that thing* and pick it up for free right then and there. The guy/gal > thinks they are *bonding* the client/sales connection - HA! I just dive the dumpsters, I'd rather not make a scene with some landlord. If it's in the trash, I figure it's public domain. Around here, poor folk (like I have been throughout much of my twenties) rely on trash scores for chairs, cheap tables, whatever. However, I live near Harvard U. and you have no *idea* what some of these students will thow away! And the computers... I have a friend that *just* collects 3b1's. > > One problem around here is - if it has a waste sticker on it - it is > property of the local government 8-( (So I use the *Midnight Run*) > Better than having to landfill it - right? > You know, I may have a dissenting view here, but I think some of this stuff *ought* to go in the landfill. Sure, it will get destroyed, but landfills will be our legacy 500 years from now. It would be wonderful for a few high quality specimens of every type of computer made to survive in museums, but we also want to give our future archaeologists some reasonable sample of system distribution geographically. Oh well, disagree if you like. Cheers, J. Maynard Gelinas From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 21 23:53:15 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> References: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33acaf26.1103312@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:11:36 +0000, you wrote: %What's wrong with this (virtual) "group" ??? % %Of all the collecting groups I belong to, this is the only one where my %(and I suppose other's) public (and private) requests for help have been %ignored and (worse) I suspect even opposed. It's a feature of newsgroups in general, and I suspect, also mailing-lists. In a mailing-list like this one, there're so many messages in one day that it's hard to keep track of them and to reply. Ben From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jun 22 00:21:22 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: "J. Maynard Gelinas"'s message of Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:36:02 -0400 (EDT) References: Message-ID: <199706220521.WAA23191@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "J. Maynard Gelinas" writes: > You know, I may have a dissenting view here, but I think some of > this stuff *ought* to go in the landfill. Sure, it will get destroyed, > but landfills will be our legacy 500 years from now. It would be > wonderful for a few high quality specimens of every type of computer made > to survive in museums, but we also want to give our future archaeologists > some reasonable sample of system distribution geographically. Oh well, > disagree if you like. Y'know, they don't just plonk the stuff down and spread a layer of dirt on top. They run it over with this nice bulldozer sort of thing that has steel wheels with cleats. Crunches the stuff up better. -Frank McConnell From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 21 12:00:18 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33ABAEFA.1044@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > Well, to get more specific, I have the (perhaps wrong) feeling that: > > a) You are against collectors who collect for the historical importance > onyl and are not really worried if the item works or not (as long as all > the parts are in there and the thing can be made to work if and when > required). I have been ridiculized when I suggested this one way to go > about collecting. > > b) You are against collectors who want ot take out bits and pieces from > the systems in order to show them separately (but retaining and perhaps > even ehibiting the "crippled" item). I have been refused help in thsi > respect when it became apparent I was going to do this. Enrico, who is "you" that you are referring to? You can't possibly mean the group collective, since we each think for ourselves. If you feel you have been slighted by some of us, why not send us personal e-mail so we can work it out without having to involve everyone. > c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") > collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that > it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a > deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance > after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody > need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. Enrico, you are WAY out of line here. This is entirely a self-conceived paranoid notion. There are many "foreigners" in this discussion group. Everyone is treated equally with respect. If you feel you are being singled out for criticism then you are mistaken. > I think that if you think I am wrong the best way to demonstrate it, if > you care, is not with words but with facts. I think you just need to drop this and get on with the discussion. I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but this is really leading no where. I think you should let yourself cool off and bit and then ask the questions you want answered again. Sometimes your messages get lost in all the clutter. Perhaps someone will have an answer for you the second time around. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at terra.cnct.com Sun Jun 22 01:25:33 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Mark 8 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970621100742.260f19ba@mailhost.cyberramp.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Tim Olmstead wrote: > If you've ever done anything with an i960, this is duck soup. Y'ever _made_ duck soup? Most 70s era micro projects are lots easier. Not counting getting all of those little lead pellets out of the duck. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From KFergason at aol.com Sun Jun 22 01:20:47 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Printers and Finds of the Week Message-ID: <970622022047_1721833393@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-21 21:41:21 EDT, you write: << I found an interesting printer today. It is an SR2000, produced by Sears Roebuck & Company, or at least it has their name on it. According >> I have one also, and have the manual somewhere if you need specific info. might take me a week or two to find it though. :-) Kelly KFergason@aol.com From gram at terra.cnct.com Sun Jun 22 01:30:40 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) In-Reply-To: <199706211233.FAA08606@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Olminkhof wrote: > keyboard 4k version, a CBM 3032 and a CBM 8032 hulk. I suspect they will > always be around because they are so hard to destroy. The case is very > solid. I found the "hulk" in a paddock, like some people find ancient cars! > I've never attempted to power this one up though. I take "paddock" is Strine for "junkyard", and open to the elements? -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 22 02:29:33 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: from "J. Maynard Gelinas" at Jun 22, 97 00:36:02 am Message-ID: <9706220629.AA11191@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2060 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970621/1bf4435f/attachment.ksh From gram at terra.cnct.com Sun Jun 22 01:46:14 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33AC20C6.602D@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > There is the matter of customs which many americans have little experience > > with. > I accept that....but you are such a big country. Isn't it about time you > start looking outside and try to understand other cultures? (no offence > meant) Understanding other cultures is a piece of cake. Dealing with the bloody government import/export laws and customs duties is a different can of worms. Me, I'm for all borders open to all. Then again, I'm just a damned anarchist, so what do I know? -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 22 02:35:36 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Why? References: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> <33acaf26.1103312@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33ACD5C8.7E31@ndirect.co.uk> Benedict Chong wrote: > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:11:36 +0000, you wrote: > > %What's wrong with this (virtual) "group" ??? > % > %Of all the collecting groups I belong to, this is the only one where > my > %(and I suppose other's) public (and private) requests for help have > been > %ignored and (worse) I suspect even opposed. > > It's a feature of newsgroups in general, and I suspect, also > mailing-lists. > > In a mailing-list like this one, there're so many messages in one day > that it's hard to keep track of them and to reply. > > Ben Now THAT is a sensible, informative answer. Thank you Ben. -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Sun Jun 22 01:45:34 1997 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) Message-ID: <199706220646.XAA00883@mx3.u.washington.edu> ---------- > From: Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) > Date: Sunday, June 22, 1997 4:30 PM > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Olminkhof wrote: > > keyboard 4k version, a CBM 3032 and a CBM 8032 hulk. I suspect they will > > always be around because they are so hard to destroy. The case is very > > solid. I found the "hulk" in a paddock, like some people find ancient cars! > > I've never attempted to power this one up though. > > I take "paddock" is Strine for "junkyard", and open to the elements? "paddock" is an english word for a place where animals graze. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 22 03:22:35 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Cocos Message-ID: <33ACE0CB.364D@ndirect.co.uk> Just to help me understand better...when you refer to Cocos, do you refer to the Tandy TRS-80 COlour COmputers? Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From gram at terra.cnct.com Sun Jun 22 02:32:45 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > away! And the computers... I have a friend that *just* collects 3b1's. What's he got to trade? That's my own personal favourite machine -- in my arrogant opinion the aesthetically finest machine ever made. (And I had my 3B1 for a couple of years before I went to work for Unisys at the old Convergent Technologies plant in San Jose). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at terra.cnct.com Sun Jun 22 02:35:13 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > You know, I may have a dissenting view here, but I think some of > this stuff *ought* to go in the landfill. Sure, it will get destroyed, > but landfills will be our legacy 500 years from now. It would be > wonderful for a few high quality specimens of every type of computer made > to survive in museums, but we also want to give our future archaeologists > some reasonable sample of system distribution geographically. Oh well, > disagree if you like. Those future archaeologists are going to have to pry my computers out of my cold dead hands. Well, that's their job. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From pcoad at crl.com Sun Jun 22 03:00:43 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > > > > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > > [snip] > > > > expensive Sun hardware... my bosses give me little time to play. > > > > Let me know the next time you guys *clean out the stockroom!!!!* > > I am sure you can have some of that *expensive* Sun stuff end up > > as *worhtless to repair* items after I get done looking it over 8-) > > > > Hehe. This stuff won't be thrown away for several years. > However, there are a *lot* of sparc 1s, 2s, and Sun 3/xx equipment > floating around out here. I just missed a sparc 2 base for $270 out at > the M.I.T. flea two months ago - and I was there, like, at 9am start, and > at the table within 15 minutes of opening. Damn! That sucked. Sparc 1s > can be had as cheap as $70 bucks base. I know this isn't really on topic > for people looking for 4 and 8 bit computers, but you have to admit these > kinds of prices are significant considering what this box will do. Where > I work has several Sparc 1s and IPC/IPX's floating around still in > production. Most of them are bootp servers, X-Terms, or snmp log > grabbers. It's amazing that a computer that old is still so useful. > Hey this is on topic! I like the 4 and 8 bit stuff, but I really like Sun machines. Does anyone have a timeline for Sun machines and OS's? IPC bases have been going around here $99 from dealers. Over the last 6 months the prices of sparc machines has dropped by 30-40%. Sun 3 systems can be had for prices which even I am willing to pay. It is amazing to me that there are still so many around since they could be used for trade-ins on Sparcs. The story I heard was that they were ground up and recycled. This may be folklore. There are a lot of uses for older machines. Until about a month ago one guy in my office was still using a 3/60 for occasional work. Sure, it was mainly used as an xterm, but it worked. Over 10 years old and still in service. Anoter guy is using an IPX in the same way. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 22 06:26:06 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: bibliography Message-ID: <33AD0BCE.6207@ndirect.co.uk> What do you think of this bibliography? Have I missed any important book on the subject? Please help me in making this a useful refence for everybody to use, if you care. Thank you HOME & PERSONAL COMPUTERS HISTORY BIBLIOGRAPHY Books listed as TITLE, AUTHOR, PUBLISHER AND PUBLICATION DATE - Computer lib/Dream Machines by Ted Nelson, self published in 1974 (reprinted by Tempus Books in an updated form in 1987) - An introduction to microcomputers (vol.0) by Adam Osborne, self published in 1977 - The personal computer book by Robin Bradbeer, Gower, 1980 - The making of the Micro by Christopher Evans, Victor Gollancz Ltd., 1981 - Illustrating Computers by Day & Alcock, Pan Books, 1982 - The personal computer handbook by Varley/Graham, Pan Books Ltd., 1983 - Fire in the Valley by Freiberger/Swaine, Osborne/McGraw-Hill, 1984 - Bit by bit, an illustrated history of computers by Stan Augarten, Ticknor and Fields, 1984 - The little Kingdom by Michael Moritz, William Morrow & Co. Inc., 1984 - Hackers by Steven Levy, Doubleday/Anchor, 1984 - Digital Deli by Steve Ditlea, Workman Publishing, 1984 - Silicon Valley Fever by Robers, Everett & Larson, Basic Books, 1984 - Woz by Doug Garr ? - The Third Apple by Jean-Louis Gassee, Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1985 - The Sinclair story by Rodney Dale, Duckworth, 1985 - Sinclair and the age of the rising sun technology by Adamson and Kennedy, Penguin, 1986 - John Sculley, Odissey by John Byrne, Harper & Row, 1987 - Steve Jobs, the journey is the reward by Jeffrey S. Young, Scott, Foresman & Co., 1988 - Accidental Millionaire by Lee Butcher, Paragon House, 1988 - West of Eden by Frank Rose, Viking, 1989 - Hard Drive by Wallace & Erickson, John Wiley & Sons, 1992 - Whole Earth Software review magazine, Whole Earth Review - Wired magazine - A collector's guide to PERSONAL COMPUTERS and pocket calculators (an historical, rarity and value guide) by Dr.Thomas F.Haddock, Books Americana, 1993 - Accidental Empires by Robert X.Cringely, Harper Business, 1993 - Insanely great by Steven Levy, Penguin Books, 1994 - The Microprocessor: a Biography by Michael S. Malone, Telos/Springer-Verlag, 1995 - The Chip and How It Changed the World (History and Invention) by Ian Locke, 1995. NOTE: If I had to have only one book I would choose Computer lib. Some of these books are out of print. If you would like to find them you will have to go through a book finding service. I use Culpin's Bookshop, 3827 W.32nd Ave., Denver, CO 80211, USA. The ones in print can be ordered through your local bookshop or by post from Computer Literacy bookshop, 2590 North First Street, SAN JOSE', CA 95131, USA, tel.(703) 734-7771, fax (703) 734-7773. -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From sprague at VivaNET.com Sun Jun 22 09:40:19 1997 From: sprague at VivaNET.com (Mike Sprague) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Cocos References: <33ACE0CB.364D@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33AD3953.1CE1@VivaNET.com> e.tedeschi wrote: > > Just to help me understand better...when you refer to Cocos, do you > refer to the Tandy TRS-80 COlour COmputers? Yes. I don't know where the name origionally started, but the support magazine Tandy put out was called Hot CoCo. ~ Mike From bwit at pobox.com Sun Jun 22 07:01:08 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Cocos Message-ID: <01BC7EDA.AE0BA3E0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> Yes, that's correct. Over in the UK you had the Dragon, a neat little machine. Regards, Bob ---------- From: e.tedeschi[SMTP:e.tedeschi@ndirect.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, June 22, 1997 3:22 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Cocos Just to help me understand better...when you refer to Cocos, do you refer to the Tandy TRS-80 COlour COmputers? Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1693 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/1f9d8cae/attachment.bin From bwit at pobox.com Sun Jun 22 07:04:32 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Cocos Message-ID: <01BC7EDA.BE2690A0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> Actually, I believe that Hot Coco was a mag published by Wayne Green of 80-Micro and Byte fame. Regards, Bob ---------- From: Mike Sprague[SMTP:sprague@VivaNET.com] Sent: Sunday, June 22, 1997 9:40 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Cocos e.tedeschi wrote: > > Just to help me understand better...when you refer to Cocos, do you > refer to the Tandy TRS-80 COlour COmputers? Yes. I don't know where the name origionally started, but the support magazine Tandy put out was called Hot CoCo. ~ Mike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1613 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/04217b53/attachment.bin From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 22 11:12:44 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) References: Message-ID: <33AD4EFC.7828@unix.aardvarkol.com> Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > > solid. I found the "hulk" in a paddock, like some people find ancient cars! > > I've never attempted to power this one up though. > I take "paddock" is Strine for "junkyard", and open to the elements? Or he could litteraly mean paddock! My family has collected antique cars for over 20 years, and have found numerous ones sitting in the open behind someones barn, wheels partially buried in the mud from sitting so long. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.goecities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 22 11:20:28 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Printers and Finds of the Week References: <970622022047_1721833393@emout02.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33AD50CC.413C@unix.aardvarkol.com> KFergason@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-06-21 21:41:21 EDT, you write: > > << I found an interesting printer today. It is an SR2000, produced by > Sears Roebuck & Company, or at least it has their name on it. According > >> > > I have one also, and have the manual somewhere if you need specific > info. might take me a week or two to find it though. :-) Kelly, All I really need to know about it is what the two banks of dip switches do, both the one on the interface card at the rear of the machine, and then the one under the little sliding cover next to the front panel LED's. It works fine now, but it'd be nice to know what they do in case I ever have to fool with it! Thanks. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.goecities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From maynard at jmg.com Sun Jun 22 09:16:12 1997 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [followup scattered throughout text] On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > [snip] > > > > can be had as cheap as $70 bucks base. I know this isn't really on topic > > for people looking for 4 and 8 bit computers, but you have to admit these > > kinds of prices are significant considering what this box will do. Where > > I work has several Sparc 1s and IPC/IPX's floating around still in > > production. Most of them are bootp servers, X-Terms, or snmp log > > grabbers. It's amazing that a computer that old is still so useful. > > > > Hey this is on topic! I like the 4 and 8 bit stuff, but I really like > Sun machines. Sun hardware was damn sturdy. Their later servers - such as the current E3000 and E4000's I don't think are really as tough as something like one of the old 3/280's.... Man those things are tough and still in production in rare situations. We have a 3/60 in production just to gdb code because our 680x0 cross development/emulation platform doesn't handle debuggers terribly well. > > Does anyone have a timeline for Sun machines and OS's? > No, but I think you might want to check the Sun Hardware Reference FAQ available at: ftp://ftp.ece.uc.edu/pub/sun-faq/FAQs/Hardware/ This contains good information about what's *indide* those old boxes, and from that you can extrapolate pretty well about what time it was released. It also has some quality system release dates, but is not a complete reference for such things. > IPC bases have been going around here $99 from dealers. Over the last > 6 months the prices of sparc machines has dropped by 30-40%. Sun 3 > systems can be had for prices which even I am willing to pay. It is > amazing to me that there are still so many around since they could > be used for trade-ins on Sparcs. The story I heard was that they > were ground up and recycled. This may be folklore. > A sparc 1 or Sun 3 base is about the same price around here. I found a sparc 1 with an HM-4119 (Hitachi tube 19" color monitor), a dual sbus cgsix, two 110mb drives (one of which was trashed by the famed spindle lube gone - no spin up - problem), type 5 keyboard and optical mouse, AUI to 10BaseT adapter, and 4MB RAM (that needed upgrading); the price $100. What it lacked: a 13w3 to 4BNC cable (I obtained a 13w3 - > 4BNC adapter thingy for $20, because an original cable would have cost me $120.00 and 13w3 to 13w3 cables are *everywhere*. > There are a lot of uses for older machines. Until about a month ago > one guy in my office was still using a 3/60 for occasional work. Sure, > it was mainly used as an xterm, but it worked. Over 10 years old and > still in service. Anoter guy is using an IPX in the same way. > These things make *great* X-Terminals, especially since they are very cheap, and the architecture is well known. You can find tiny X + system kernels for rarp booting 3/60s if you want to go diskless, or stick a cheap old boot disk on the thing. The Sparc 1s out there are even more useful since they will run modern software - albeit slowly. I figure you can get a functional X-Terminal for around $300 on average... at this price you could put together a small office with a large Linux server and ten X-Terminals running StarOffice or ApplixWare... cost? Software included, easily under five to seven grand. I have yet to find a single small office interested in this type of setup, however. Since I don't make my living trying to sell this stuff, well, that's no skin off my back. But I tell my friends with small businesses, and those I wind up meeting at parties, or in Harvard Square, attempting to set up cheap youth compute centers what a Linux box and X-Terminals can do and how much it will cost. Few believe me. Oh well! \_o_/ | / \ J. Maynard Gelinas From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 22 09:43:51 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > There are a lot of uses for older machines. Until about a month ago > one guy in my office was still using a 3/60 for occasional work. Sure, > it was mainly used as an xterm, but it worked. Over 10 years old and > still in service. Anoter guy is using an IPX in the same way. A Sun 3/60 makes a _great_ X terminal for a Linux box. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 22 10:00:31 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Cocos In-Reply-To: <33AD3953.1CE1@VivaNET.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Mike Sprague wrote: > e.tedeschi wrote: > > Just to help me understand better...when you refer to Cocos, do you > > refer to the Tandy TRS-80 COlour COmputers? > > Yes. I don't know where the name origionally started, but the support > magazine Tandy put out was called Hot CoCo. The magazine was by Wayne Green Publications, a spin-off from 80-Micro (which was a spin-off from Kilobaud) -- and Wayne and Tandy Corp. had an adversarial relationship for a number of years. Wayne also piy out "InCider", for the Apple systems. Nowadays, he's back to his roots -- producing "73" for the ham radio community -- the magazine from which "Byte" then "Kilobaud" then a host of others sprang. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From timolmst at cyberramp.net Sun Jun 22 10:32:08 1997 From: timolmst at cyberramp.net (Tim Olmstead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: Mark 8 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970622103127.26a7739e@mailhost.cyberramp.net> >> If you get one of these up and running, I have a Scelbi book, "Space >> Wars for the 8008 Microprocessor" with full hex code listings... > >I also have the three books - > > An 8008 Editor Program > Machine Language Programming for the 8008 > Assembler Programs for the 8008 > >I am such a packrat 8-) > What would be the chances of getting copies of these books? Tim Olmstead timolmst@cyberramp.net From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 22 11:34:27 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: bibliography In-Reply-To: <33AD0BCE.6207@ndirect.co.uk> from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 22, 97 11:26:06 am Message-ID: <9706221534.AA09292@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 845 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/79db1013/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 22 10:58:23 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:01 2005 Subject: bibliography References: <33AD0BCE.6207@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33AD4B9F.471D@rain.org> e.tedeschi wrote: > > What do you think of this bibliography? Have I missed any important book > on the subject? Please help me in making this a useful refence for > everybody to use, if you care. Thank you > One book that seems to be missing is a book published in about 1993 by Stan Veit that talks about the history of microcomputing (sorry, don't recall the title off hand.) A number of the articles were printed in the Computer Shopper before the book was published and the information was excellent. From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 22 11:05:49 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Univac Card Punch Base References: <33AD0BCE.6207@ndirect.co.uk> <33AD4B9F.471D@rain.org> Message-ID: <33AD4D5D.5284@rain.org> Anyone have any use for or want a Univac Card Punch Base? I bought this thing probably 15 or 20 years ago before I started collecting, tore it apart and threw away the main unit and kept the base which I used as a desk. I kind of hate to toss it and I would MUCH prefer to give it away. From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 11:18:47 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: Ok, here it is. Mike Westerfield, the guy with the AIM65s, phoned me yesterday and we spoke about the deal. He has been offered $125 for EACH unit from a company called Dynatem which still uses the AIMs commercially. Mike started a company way back with a product based on the AIM65. It was an insurance rate calculator. In order to make the product marketable, he designed a plastic and a metal-base enclosure. He also placed a compact power supply inside the enclosure to make for a nice complete package. He apparently was very successful with this venture and sold many. At this point, unless someone comes along and offers him more than $125 per unit and buys the whole lot, they are going to Dynatem. That's too rich for my blood. After explaining all this to me, and after I explained what we do here on classiccmp, Mike mentioned that he had a bunch of other stuff that we might be interested in. He has a whole basement full of stuff he would like to sell off. Here's what he told me he has: EPROM burners Logical Devices GangPro-S and GangPro-2S. These can burn 32 chips at a time. These also have other features which make them very nice. Logical Devices GangPro-8 and GangPro-4 which can burn 8 and 4 respectively. Optical Technologies EP-2A-88 and EP-2A-89. EPROMs A "ton" of NEC-2716 and Hitachi 2716 EPROMs He also has the line on hundreds of Panasonic RL-H18 palmtops. This is a palmtop which came out around 1985 and had FORTH in ROM. It also has a 20-col (or 40-col?) thermal printer and a case which bundles the two together. His company also developed an expansion "tray" which houses extra memory that the Panasonic can access through bank-switching. He sold this product to (I believe) an insurance firm and now they want to dump them all. Now again, he said they have hundreds, and were just going to shit-can them, but he said the company would most likely opt to get some money back for them if they could. He said probably about $10 per unit would get them, but they'd have to be purchased in one shot. Now I don't think that there are enough people here with an interest to buy one. I suggested that perhaps they can set aside a couple hundred and then shitcan the rest because I don't have a couple thousand lying around in which to buy all of them, nor would I want to. It's up to us to come up with a proposal. As far as dealing with Mike, I asked him contacting him. At this point, he would perfer the current arrangement whereby I am the central point of contact because it is easier for him. However, this tends to put me in a bad spot for certain reasons. I'm sure there will be people interested in working out a bulk deal with him. To those people I say feel free to contact him since he is most interested in getting rid of everything in one shot. He's not interested in dealing with onesies and twosies. So he would like for everyone who has an interest in a little here and a little there to contact me about it and then he's going to call me again in a week. This would refer mainly to someone wanting one of the panasonic's or a few EPROMs. As far as the Panasonics, he's finding out more information about quantity and we will talk more about price next week. As far as the EPROM burners, I would think that dealing directly with him would be best. Anyway, his e-mail address is Mikeooo1@aol.com. He's a very nice guy. He offered that if there was anyone in New Jersey (I believe there is at least one person here, I can't remember his name) to come on down to his place and he'll show you through all the stuff he has. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From scott at saskatoon.com Sun Jun 22 11:41:51 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Cocos In-Reply-To: <01BC7EDA.BE2690A0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> Message-ID: > > Yes. I don't know where the name origionally started, but the support > magazine Tandy put out was called Hot CoCo. > > ~ Mike IIRC, there was some debate in the _really_ early rainbow magazines. (Or maybe it was in the 80 Micros. I have those, I'll have to check later.) They were trying to decide a nickname for the Colour Computer. I don't remember off hand what some of the other candidates were, but there were some people who thought CoCo was too 'cute' or non-business like or some such. ttfn srw From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 22 11:39:31 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33b054ce.584152@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 09:18:47 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: Too bad for the AIM65s. Anyway, I would be in for the Panasonics. Ben From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 22 11:41:36 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Cocos In-Reply-To: <01BC7EDA.AE0BA3E0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> References: <01BC7EDA.AE0BA3E0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> Message-ID: <33b15579.755586@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 07:01:08 -0500, you wrote: %Yes, that's correct. Over in the UK you had the Dragon, a neat little machine. The dragon was the first computer I bought. I had the French version, with a Peritel output. Paid 3000FF for it. To think that I sold it 5 months later. Ah, the stupidity and shortsightedness of youth.... Ben From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 22 14:55:09 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: AIM65 References: Message-ID: <33AD831D.2696@unix.aardvarkol.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > He also has the line on hundreds of Panasonic RL-H18 palmtops. This is a > palmtop which came out around 1985 and had FORTH in ROM. It also has a > 20-col (or 40-col?) thermal printer and a case which bundles the two > together. His company also developed an expansion "tray" which houses > extra memory that the Panasonic can access through bank-switching. He > sold this product to (I believe) an insurance firm and now they want to > dump them all. Now again, he said they have hundreds, and were just > going to shit-can them, but he said the company would most likely opt to > get some money back for them if they could. He said probably about $10 > per unit would get them, but they'd have to be purchased in one shot. > Now I don't think that there are enough people here with an interest to > buy one. I suggested that perhaps they can set aside a couple hundred > and then shitcan the rest because I don't have a couple thousand lying > around in which to buy all of them, nor would I want to. It's up to us > to come up with a proposal. Sam, I'd certainly be interested in one of the palmtops if we could get enough people to snag a bunch of them. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 (corrected URL) From jrice at texoma.net Sun Jun 22 11:51:36 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: AIM65 References: Message-ID: <33AD5818.5658CB0D@texoma.net> Sam Ismail wrote: > Ok, here it is. > > Mike Westerfield, the guy with the AIM65s, phoned me yesterday and we > spoke about the deal. He has been offered $125 for EACH unit from a > company called Dynatem which still uses the AIMs commercially. Mike > started a company way back with a product based on the AIM65. It was > an > insurance rate calculator. In order to make the product marketable, > he > designed a plastic and a metal-base enclosure. He also placed a > compact > power supply inside the enclosure to make for a nice complete package. > > He apparently was very successful with this venture and sold many. At > > this point, unless someone comes along and offers him more than $125 > per > unit and buys the whole lot, they are going to Dynatem. That's too > rich > for my blood. > > After explaining all this to me, and after I explained what we do here > > on classiccmp, Mike mentioned that he had a bunch of other stuff that > we > might be interested in. He has a whole basement full of stuff he > would > like to sell off. Here's what he told me he has: > > EPROM burners > > Logical Devices GangPro-S and GangPro-2S. These can burn 32 chips at > a time. > These also have other features which make them very nice. > > Logical Devices GangPro-8 and GangPro-4 which can burn 8 and 4 > respectively. > > Optical Technologies EP-2A-88 and EP-2A-89. > > EPROMs > > A "ton" of NEC-2716 and Hitachi 2716 EPROMs > > He also has the line on hundreds of Panasonic RL-H18 palmtops. This > is a > palmtop which came out around 1985 and had FORTH in ROM. It also has > a > 20-col (or 40-col?) thermal printer and a case which bundles the two > together. His company also developed an expansion "tray" which houses > > extra memory that the Panasonic can access through bank-switching. He > > sold this product to (I believe) an insurance firm and now they want > to > dump them all. Now again, he said they have hundreds, and were just > going to shit-can them, but he said the company would most likely opt > to > get some money back for them if they could. He said probably about > $10 > per unit would get them, but they'd have to be purchased in one shot. > Now I don't think that there are enough people here with an interest > to > buy one. I suggested that perhaps they can set aside a couple hundred > > and then shitcan the rest because I don't have a couple thousand lying > > around in which to buy all of them, nor would I want to. It's up to > us > to come up with a proposal. > > As far as dealing with Mike, I asked him contacting him. At this > point, > he would perfer the current arrangement whereby I am the central point > of > contact because it is easier for him. However, this tends to put me > in a > bad spot for certain reasons. I'm sure there will be people > interested in > working out a bulk deal with him. To those people I say feel free to > contact him since he is most interested in getting rid of everything > in > one shot. He's not interested in dealing with onesies and twosies. > So > he would like for everyone who has an interest in a little here and a > little there to contact me about it and then he's going to call me > again > in a week. This would refer mainly to someone wanting one of the > panasonic's or a few EPROMs. As far as the Panasonics, he's finding > out > more information about quantity and we will talk more about price next > > week. As far as the EPROM burners, I would think that dealing > directly > with him would be best. > > Anyway, his e-mail address is Mikeooo1@aol.com. He's a very nice guy. > > He offered that if there was anyone in New Jersey (I believe there is > at > least one person here, I can't remember his name) to come on down to > his > place and he'll show you through all the stuff he has. > > Sam > --- > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, > Writer, Jackass Count me in for a couple of the Panasonics. James L. Rice TRS-80 M100 Collector and user From danjo at xnet.com Sun Jun 22 12:04:01 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: The Truth about AIM-65's Message-ID: Sam Ismail wrote: > Ok, here it is. > > Mike Westerfield, the guy with the AIM65s, phoned me yesterday and we > spoke about the deal. He has been offered $125 for EACH unit from a > company called Dynatem which still uses the AIMs commercially. Mike > started a company way back with a product based on the AIM65. It was > an insurance rate calculator. In order to make the product marketable, > he designed a plastic and a metal-base enclosure. He also placed a > compact power supply inside the enclosure to make for a nice complete > package. > > He apparently was very successful with this venture and sold many. At > this point, unless someone comes along and offers him more than $125 > per unit and buys the whole lot, they are going to Dynatem. That's too > rich for my blood. The problem lies in the fact that in the early/mid 80's Dynatem *bought* the rights to the AIM-65. Lock stock and barrel. I guess they have a right to buy them. I don't think they are going to get tossed anytime soon. I might try to contact them and maybe buy one of of them. BC From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 22 12:09:10 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: bibliography(ies) Message-ID: <199706221709.AA24998@world.std.com> > HOME & PERSONAL COMPUTERS HISTORY BIBLIOGRAPHY > > Books listed as TITLE, AUTHOR, PUBLISHER AND PUBLICATION DATE An excellent list! I'd like to point out that between 77-81 timeframe you have a huge hole as there was an explosion of books about microcomputers. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 22 12:20:30 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: <199706221720.AA29034@world.std.com> Sam, I'd certainly be interested in TWO of the palmtops(@$10ea) if there were some docs like a schematic and ??? Allison From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 22 12:58:57 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > this point, unless someone comes along and offers him more than $125 per > unit and buys the whole lot, they are going to Dynatem. That's too rich > for my blood. A bit steep for me as well. > Anyway, his e-mail address is Mikeooo1@aol.com. He's a very nice guy. > He offered that if there was anyone in New Jersey (I believe there is at > least one person here, I can't remember his name) to come on down to his > place and he'll show you through all the stuff he has. Let me see if I can schedule some time next weekend. Might be difficult, as I'll be getting ready to head out to Utah and Wyoming for a desperately needed vacation. I know Lisa would want one of the palmtops, but eprom burners are out of my line -- I didn't really involve myself with micros until they came pre-assembled. But I seem to be the only guy on the list in the right area code. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From ccm at sentex.net Sun Jun 22 13:21:52 1997 From: ccm at sentex.net (Commercial Computing Museum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: bibliography Message-ID: <199706221821.OAA23664@granite.sentex.net> What a wonderful idea. Such a list is ideal for a web site. I will gather a few more titles (espeically biographical books by and about CEO's from NCR, Raytheon, GE, DEC, etc.) and send them off to you. Kevin From kyrrin at wizards.net Sun Jun 22 13:12:38 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Perceptions In-Reply-To: <199706220702.AAA17891@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970622111238.00f7bcc0@mail.wizards.net> At 00:02 22-06-97 PDT, you wrote: >Well, to get more specific, I have the (perhaps wrong) feeling that: > >a) You are against collectors who collect for the historical importance >onyl and are not really worried if the item works or not (as long as all >the parts are in there and the thing can be made to work if and when >required). I have been ridiculized when I suggested this one way to go >about collecting. ??? What on God's green Earth would make you think that? I collect a few bits and pieces mainly for historical value (I've got an original Seagate ST212 in one of my Micro-PDP11's that I don't ever plan to use; just exhibit), and I've never been ridiculed. Even if you have been jeered at, what of it? People have taken plenty of pokes at me for my open criticism of Bill Gates, Microsoft, Intel, et al, and my collecting of DEC stuff that's at least ten years old. My take on this? Let 'em jeer. I see them as narrow-minded victims of the Wintel monopoly's marketing sharks, and I am confident in the fact that I'll likely forget more about computer hardware than such people will ever learn. >b) You are against collectors who want ot take out bits and pieces from >the systems in order to show them separately (but retaining and perhaps >even ehibiting the "crippled" item). I have been refused help in thsi >respect when it became apparent I was going to do this. I don't see an issue with this. What I do have a problem with is people who just blindly throw 'bits and pieces' or entire machines on the scrap heap just because they think they're "obsolete" (an overused word if ever there was one!) >c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") >collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that >it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a ?!? Good Lord, man, who's been beating you up? I would WELCOME aiding anyone, in any country, that wanted to restore or collect some piece of hardware that I'm familiar with and needed help to get it going (I obviously can't be of much help with stuff I don't know anything about). Tell you what... if you want proof of this, at least from me, I'd be happy to offer any aid I can with the equipment that I'm familiar with. That includes DEC stuff, from the PDP11/03 on up through the MicroPDP's and VAXen. There are others on here who, I'm sure, would be willing to help you in their particular areas of expertise. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jun 22 13:25:15 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Sun, 22 Jun 1997 09:18:47 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199706221825.LAA17964@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail writes: > Mike Westerfield, the guy with the AIM65s, phoned me yesterday and we > spoke about the deal. He has been offered $125 for EACH unit from a > company called Dynatem which still uses the AIMs commercially. Mike > started a company way back with a product based on the AIM65. It was an > insurance rate calculator. In order to make the product marketable, he > designed a plastic and a metal-base enclosure. He also placed a compact > power supply inside the enclosure to make for a nice complete package. > He apparently was very successful with this venture and sold many. At > this point, unless someone comes along and offers him more than $125 per > unit and buys the whole lot, they are going to Dynatem. That's too rich > for my blood. Some computers are so classic that they're still out there doing Real Work! I am going to have to pull my other AIM65 out and take a good look at it to see if I can figure out who badge-engineered it. (I wonder if it was Mike?) It is also in a plastic case that is obviously intended to make it portable, and I wonder how many other companies there were doing specialized applications around them. Thanks, Sam and Marvin, for sounding this out and being the go-betweens. -Frank McConnell From frank at 5points.com Sun Jun 22 13:25:44 1997 From: frank at 5points.com (Frank Peseckis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33b16772.489808903@mail.capital.net> On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 09:18:47 -0700 (PDT), Sam Ismail wrote: >He also has the line on hundreds of Panasonic RL-H18 palmtops. This is a >palmtop which came out around 1985 and had FORTH in ROM. [snip] >get some money back for them if they could. He said probably about $10 >per unit would get them, but they'd have to be purchased in one shot. Sam, if you are planning to add up the count-me-in's for the palmtops and act as the representative to buy a bunch from Mike as a single lot for people on the list who express interest, count me in for two of them. If this does happen, how do you want to handle the logistics of payment and shipping? Frank Frank Peseckis frank@5points.com http://www.5points.com/ From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 19:26:33 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk>; from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 21, 97 6:11 am Message-ID: <199706221826.3911@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > What's wrong with this (virtual) "group" ??? > > Of all the collecting groups I belong to, this is the only one where my > (and I suppose other's) public (and private) requests for help have been > ignored and (worse) I suspect even opposed. I'll admit to ignoring requests for help - if I either don't know the answer, or if I have good reason to believe that somebody else will answer it more completely than I ever could. I don't (for example) respond to posts about the Apple ][ very often - I didn't grow up with them, and don't know that much about them. There are plenty of people here who could give a lot more information on those machines. But try asking about one of my favourite machines and you'll get all sorts of info sent back. I suspect most other people here act the same way. I, too, have received no replies to some of my messages, but I've simply taken that to mean that nobody knows the answer, and not anything personal. > > Is there something I don't know? If this the case I would like to know. > Thank you. > > Also your caper to insist on having ALL the items in the collection in > working condition is, in my opinion, unique to this group. I can Well, I prefer my machines to work - that's what they were designed to do, and that's what they should still do. But if you're implying that I don't want any non-working stuff, then that's 100% false. I have several tens of machines that need repair at this moment. One day I'll get round to fixing them (I enjoy repairing classic computers!), but until then I'll keep them as they are. And even machines beyond repair (prototypes with a dead custom chip :-)) are still worth collecting. > enrico -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 22 13:27:40 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: H8 Computer References: <3.0.1.32.19970622111238.00f7bcc0@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: <33AD6E9C.3E14@rain.org> What is a Heath H8 worth? A friend of mine turned my on to a Heathkit H8, H19 terminal, 5 1/4" drives, 8" drives, and all manuals and docs. The guy wants $100 for the lot and I don't know if this is reasonable or not. I told him I am not interested in cheating or paying him a lot less than what it might be worth, but I don't want to pay more either :). Also FWIW, he sold a Heathkit 6800 logic kit for $35 yesterday. Again, I don't know if that is reasonable or not, but the unit did sound interesting. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 19:37:13 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33ABAEFA.1044@ndirect.co.uk>; from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 21, 97 10:37 am Message-ID: <199706221837.3956@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Well, to get more specific, I have the (perhaps wrong) feeling that: > > a) You are against collectors who collect for the historical importance > onyl and are not really worried if the item works or not (as long as all > the parts are in there and the thing can be made to work if and when > required). I have been ridiculized when I suggested this one way to go > about collecting. I am not against any collectors. The fact that different people have different views on how to collect classic computers is to be expected IMHO. You mentioned in a previous message that you collected for 'historical importance and design' (or words to that effect). Now, to look at the design properly _requires_ that the machine is working IMHO. Otherwise you may as well just collect the schematics and technical manuals - although I have a large-ish collection of those (11 bookcases + a filing cabinet + a few piles), I'd not claim they were as nice as the machines they go with. But a non-working machine and its schematic give you essentially the same information. > > b) You are against collectors who want ot take out bits and pieces from > the systems in order to show them separately (but retaining and perhaps > even ehibiting the "crippled" item). I have been refused help in thsi > respect when it became apparent I was going to do this. Hmmm... Well, I _am_ 'against' people who strip rare machines for their parts. But I have no objections to dismantling (reversably) a classic computer - when I demonstrate one of my machines I _always_ open the cover and pull boards. At the HPCC conference last year I demonstrated my 9100B, and then flipped the cover, pulled out the timing, flip-flop and core boards, removed the keyboard and card reader and flipped over the main control store assembly. I then passed the bits round the audience. Yes, it did work afterwards! So, if you to exhibit a machine and one of its PCBs separately, go ahead. But I'd be happier if I knew it could all go back together again sometime. > > c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") > collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that Eh? last time I checked this was an international list. I've never found _any_ anti-a-particular-country messages here, and never want to do so. But classic computers _are_ difficult to ship. They're heavy, delicate, and impossible to replace. Insurance is no use at all, and shipping companies are not that careful. I know plenty of people in the States who I'd quite happily allow to use machines in my collection (they'd know how to care for them, etc), but I'd never ship the machines to them, simply because I could not be sure they'd not get lost or damaged in shipping. > Thank you for your interest > > enrico -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 19:44:02 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Label Remover Message-ID: <199706221844.3985@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> There was a thread here a few weeks back about dealing with those sticky labels that seem to accumulate on classic computers. I've just bought a can of a substance called 'Electrolube (the brand name) Label Remover'. You spray it on, wait a few minutes, and rub the label off. I used it yesterday to remove some _strong_ double-sided adhesive tape inside my laser printer, and it did the job extremely well. The can claims that it may attack some plastics (so take care on classic micro cases!), and it's not that cheap (\pounds 4.00 for a small-ish spraycan from Maplin). But it certainly does the job. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Jun 22 14:44:12 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... References: <199706220702.AAA17891@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33AD808B.1972@goldrush.com> >From: "e.tedeschi" >Subject: Re: Why? >Well, to get more specific, I have the (perhaps wrong) feeling that: > a) You are against collectors who collect for the historical importance > onyl and are not really worried if the item works or not (as long as all > the parts are in there and the thing can be made to work if and when > required). I have been ridiculized when I suggested this one way to go > about collecting. I have never felt that here, and I have several items in my collection in non-working order. Would I give up my P-500, MTU VMM board, or SuperPET if I never got them fixed? NO! I would hope to get them fixed but the important thing now is to get them, mainly because it is part of the 'collection' if they work, wonderful, if they don't they still has meaning. > b) You are against collectors who want ot take out bits and pieces from > the systems in order to show them separately (but retaining and perhaps > even ehibiting the "crippled" item). I have been refused help in thsi > respect when it became apparent I was going to do this. I think that may be personal views by individual collectors and not by the group in whole. Some feel that not having 'original parts' or add-ons is blasphmey. I can understand and appreciate where you come from, there are compnents of computers that are shear art as the disk controller in the apple II (from what I read the board was drawn 'not designed by computer' by Steve Wozniac.) I would be interested to learn more about it. There have been chips that have amazed me too. Everyone has their own intrest. The only reason you are perceiving otherwise is that those people are the ones that are posting more, from years of running an BBS as well as participating on the group, the more you post messages the more attention and notoriety you will receive. If you want to see something written about an interest of yours, sometimes you just have to sit down and write it yourself. > c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") > collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that > it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a > deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance > after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody > need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. I reply to what I know (some times I also replay to what I don't know and put my foot in the mouth in the process). If you see anyone post about Commodores or PETs more specifically, you can be sure within a day or so a response from me will follow (unless it is something I am totally in the dark about). Case in point, Exidy Sorceror, I purchased one and sent it to Sam Ismael, he is now looking for information, not very many people ever seen one, much less an ad for one, sometimes the best we can do is quiote from old magazine ads. :/ Also some of the sytems are regional and there may not be many people from that area who have seen that particular machine on this list... > Of course I have no proof of the above but from the short experience I > had here, I think that the problem exhists as opposed to the "openess" > of other American collecting groups like, for example, the radio > collecting community which has been VERY helpful with me and other > "foreigners" to buy and export stuff from the USA and CANADA (what about > the stuff you ARE importing from overseas then?). I have sent fellow users disks and cartridges through the mail to Europe, anything larger I could not afford the shipping. This depends on the individual. Sam was lucky to get me to shop the Sorcer as quick as I did, I myself lothe shipping things, especially heavy/bulky things. I think that again depends on the individual. > I think that if you think I am wrong the best way to demonstrate it, if > you care, is not with words but with facts. > Thank you for your interest > enrico You are very welcome and hope you keep with the list and help us all to work out this misunderstanding. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Jun 22 15:10:43 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: PET References: <199706220702.AAA17891@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33AD86C2.234F@goldrush.com> > From: Paul E Coad > Subject: Re: Who was in Australia? >On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >> Subject: Mint Commodore PET FOR Sale >> From: "Stephen McCoy and Charmiane Barr" >> >> Date: 1997/06/17Message-Id: >> <01bc7b43$fddee5c0$b8933dcf@charmaine> >> Newsgroups: aus.computers.amiga[More Headers] >I'll bite on this. How much is one of these worth? I have almost >zero experience with PETs having only seen 2 in person. What are the >relative rarities of the various models of PETs? Did they make a >bunch of them? Are they really common in some places and pretty >rare in others? As everyone says worth is a relative term, some computers that hvae high perceived values are given to people, etc. This is a question YOU have to answer as a collector, no one can set your price for you. Well alot of the PETS were purchased by schools and some businesses, prices for the computer back then when they were new (1977-1981) ranged from $700-$1,200, disk drives were about $1,000 for a dual drive model. Nowadays in my region of California schools have been ridding themselves of them at a high rate. The computers are not too terribly hard to come by but the drives are harder to find. Rarity? Hmm, probably the most interesting is the original series with it's colorful calculator-style keyboard (circa 1977) and in-case cassette unit. Next I would say is the SuperPET (circa 1981, the last of the line, which I described about two digests ago) with it's mainframe-friendly, multi-language ability. All units had monochrome displays and either 40x25 or 80x25 screens (no hi-res graphics without 3rd party hardware), the BASIC is almost exacly the same as in the Commodore 64 or VIC-20 and uses a 6502 processor. Memory ranged from the first 4k units (a short run), 8k, 16k and 32k with some of the latter 80 column machines sporting 96k expansion bnoards. There are a few collections of programs available on the internet with most still to be re-discovered. >The ones I have seen are pretty cool looking in a retro-future kind of way. That's true, back then they 'looked' like a modern computer, more than some of the other computers (which looked like the steel boxes they were in). You can spot them as props in movies now and again (Star Trek II, in Kirk's apartment). They were fun, and they were pretty good even for their limitations. If you are a fan of Commodore computers it is a nice addition to have some PETs in the house. ;) >Also note that whois reports that efni.com is in Canada. The machine >might not be in Australia. Commodore was pretty big for a good while in other countries as they had the foresight to start manufacturing plants internationally (Germany was probably one of its largest). As far as shipping a PET it would require a very sturdy box about the size needed for a 19" television and would weigh 30 to 40 pounds. -- Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Jun 22 15:27:40 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Classsic Computing Newsgroup revisited Message-ID: <33AD8ABC.6F05@goldrush.com> About a month or two back we were discussing starting a newsgroup for classic computer collectors. I just wanted to mention there is a somewhat related newsgroup on the net that could use some activity: alt.technology.obsolete I am for it, I have it on my news sites to check and in the last few months I have maybe seen three messages in it (two being multi-newsgroup spams) Whaddya guys (and gals) think? Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 20:51:16 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <33AD808B.1972@goldrush.com>; from "Larry Anderson & Diane Hare" at Jun 22, 97 11:44 am Message-ID: <199706221951.4344@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I think that may be personal views by individual collectors and not by > the group in whole. Some feel that not having 'original parts' or > add-ons is blasphmey. I can understand and appreciate where you come Hmmm... I see nothing wrong with replacing components in a system - that, to me, is a natural thing that would have happened to the machine when it was in use. I can understand people who feel differently, though. > from, there are compnents of computers that are shear art as the disk > controller in the apple II (from what I read the board was drawn 'not I'll have to disagree with you there. IMHO the Disk II controller is nothing other than a kludge. It could certainly have done with a track 0 sensor (that would have stopped the heads from banging on start-up). And, as a hardware designer, I don't like designs where most of the functionality is handled in software. Now, the RX01 (or even the RK02) - they're _elegant_ disk controllers (ducking to avoid flames....). The RX01 is a large board of TTL that is, essentially a custom-built microcoded processor. The RX02 (which adds double-density operation) was built from those wonderful 2900-series bit-slice chips. But each to his own. I'm not going to flame Apple ][ enthusiasts, just as they don't flame DEC and 3RCC enthusiasts. And I'll save Apple hardware if I see it - I bought a large stack of obscure Apple cards at the last radio rally (Hamfest). [...] > totally in the dark about). Case in point, Exidy Sorceror, I purchased > one and sent it to Sam Ismael, he is now looking for information, not > very many people ever seen one, much less an ad for one, sometimes the Somewhere I have a Techref for the Sorceror, and one for the S100 adapter for it. I also have some user group newsletters, etc. Feel free to pester me on this list if you want me to dig this stuff out. BTW, it's not up for grabs. I need it to maintain my Sorceror :-) > Larry Anderson -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 22 16:19:47 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Classsic Computing Newsgroup revisited In-Reply-To: <33AD8ABC.6F05@goldrush.com> from "Larry Anderson & Diane Hare" at Jun 22, 97 12:27:40 pm Message-ID: <9706222019.AA06792@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1499 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/c5e7a731/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 22 15:23:38 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706221951.4344@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > I'll have to disagree with you there. IMHO the Disk II controller is > nothing other than a kludge. It could certainly have done with a track 0 > sensor (that would have stopped the heads from banging on start-up). And, > as a hardware designer, I don't like designs where most of the > functionality is handled in software. It was definitely a kluge, as Woz would be the first to admit. Back when he was homebrewing the machine that would later be known as the Apple, he had more time to program than money to buy components -- that's why the weird disk controller with no sector detect and the 65021 instead of the 8080 -- the 6502 was about a quarter of the price of an 8080 at the time. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 22 15:25:22 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Hams who collect References: <199706221951.4344@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <33AD8A32.12A7@rain.org> I see a number of references to people who get things at hamfests, swapfests, and other amateur radio type events. As such, I was just curious who out there has their amateur radio license. I have one and my call is KE6HTS. The Santa Barbara Amateur Radio Club (of which I am currently VP of Training and Education) will be having a bazaar on Saturday, July 12th from 9AM to about noon. If anyone is interested in attending, let me know and I will forward the directions. Hmmm, I think there is information on the SBARC Web page, http://www.sbarc.org. Generally speaking, things are sold at whatever price during the first hour, half that for the second hour, free for the taking during the last hour, and free to intecept as the remains are carried to the dumpster. They have quite a few older computers (condition unknown) including the NCR PC-8 (which I have already interecepted), A SpectraGraphics CAD setup with at least four workstations and a bunch of stuff I am not familiar with. The PCs, PS/2s, and similar stuff will probably be available for the taking. I would like to see the SpectraGraphics stuff saved as well, but I am out of space for the moment. From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 22 15:29:07 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Hams who collect References: <199706221951.4344@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> <33AD8A32.12A7@rain.org> Message-ID: <33AD8B13.35A@rain.org> Marvin wrote: > > The Santa Barbara Amateur Radio Club (of which I am currently VP of > Training and Education) will be having a bazaar on Saturday, July 12th > from 9AM to about noon. If anyone is interested in attending, let me > know and I will forward the directions. Hmmm, I think there is > information on the SBARC Web page, http://www.sbarc.org. > I stand corrected, I just checked the page and nothing to speak of about the Bazaar. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 21:28:54 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Classsic Computing Newsgroup revisited In-Reply-To: <9706222019.AA06792@alph02.triumf.ca>; from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 22, 97 1:19 pm Message-ID: <199706222028.4491@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I'm against new newsgroups being created, especially when the topics > are quite technical and already well-handled by existing newsgroups. > For example, people wanting Apple II help can go to comp.sys.apple2, > users of various CP/M systems hang around comp.os.cpm, PDP-11 > users have vmsnet.pdp-11, etc. Agreed. Off-hand I can't think of a single classic computer which is not covered by at least one existing newsgroup. If you don't know which group to post to, you'll find that most of them are quite friendly to just-off-topic questions. If you find an obscure Z80 machine that didn't ever run CP/M, I'm quite sure that a post to comp.os.cpm would get either some help or a pointer to the appropriate newsgroup. I'd be _very_ supprised if it got a flame. I know for a _fact_ that other early workstations have been discussed in alt.sys.perq with no flamage. Just be warned that most of these groups do not want off-topic postings about mainstream modern PC's (for which there are plenty of other groups), and certainly don't want spam :-) > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 21:33:02 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Hams who collect In-Reply-To: <33AD8A32.12A7@rain.org>; from "Marvin" at Jun 22, 97 1:25 pm Message-ID: <199706222033.4511@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > I see a number of references to people who get things at hamfests, > swapfests, and other amateur radio type events. As such, I was just > curious who out there has their amateur radio license. I have one and > my call is KE6HTS. G1XPF here. That's a 'Class B' license, roughly the equivalent of a no-code tech in the States. But, at least in the UK, people without an amateur radio license are welcome at radio rallies (hamfests), etc. Sometimes you'll be asked for a callsign (particularly if you want the seller to hold something for you to pick up later, or for identification if you're paying by cheque), but you can always claim to be a short-wave listener (SWL). I did that for a couple of rallies, got interested in the hobby, and got my license. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sun Jun 22 15:35:57 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: PET In-Reply-To: <33AD86C2.234F@goldrush.com> References: <199706220702.AAA17891@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970622213557.006859c0@post.keme.co.uk> Hi you lot, glad the group is in a positive mood!!! Ok can you help ? a few months ago I found a Commodore P500 seriel NO. WG00837 ????? What the heck is it???? Its made in W.Germany Any Idea?? Steve Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 21:36:12 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: ; from "Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers" at Jun 22, 97 4:23 pm Message-ID: <199706222036.4538@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > It was definitely a kluge, as Woz would be the first to admit. Back when > he was homebrewing the machine that would later be known as the Apple, he > had more time to program than money to buy components -- that's why the > weird disk controller with no sector detect and the 65021 instead of the > 8080 -- the 6502 was about a quarter of the price of an 8080 at the time. And the marginal PSU, strange video addressing (to save a few TTL chips), a couple of marginal timings, etc. I believe Steve Ciarcia once printed a letter he had received from Woz (or maybe the other Apple designer) explaining that they were designing a computer and were using the 6502 because they couldn't afford the 8080. I can't remember which issue of Byte that was printed in, though. I can understand why the Apple ][ has a significant following - it was a machine that was 'open', that hackers could get inside, etc. But I also know that it's not a good piece of hardware design, and thus don't put it high up my list of interesting machines. > Ward Griffiths -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From starling at umr.edu Sun Jun 22 15:42:00 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 22, 97 09:18:47 am Message-ID: <199706222042.PAA15389@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > He also has the line on hundreds of Panasonic RL-H18 palmtops. This is a > palmtop which came out around 1985 and had FORTH in ROM. It also has a > 20-col (or 40-col?) thermal printer and a case which bundles the two > together. His company also developed an expansion "tray" which houses > extra memory that the Panasonic can access through bank-switching. He > sold this product to (I believe) an insurance firm and now they want to > dump them all. Are these the same as the Panasonic HHC? I've got a couple of those. They look like a glorified calculator (but wide and short instead of long and skinny) with a QWERTY on it... one-line display, and they take programs in the form of ROM chips that you actually plug into the sockets in the back of the bugger. One of mine I got from a guy who used to work for an insurance company. He had taken a suit case, lined it with foam rubber and then cut out holes for the HHC and components to fit in... sort of a makeshift laptop, an idea ahead of its time. As I reacall, the HHC runs a 6502 and has 4K RAM. Radio shack sold the same machine under its own name for a while, but I forget what they called it. A friend of mine had one in Jr High and I was really jealous because he could program entire algebra formulas into it so that he could just feed it the numbers and it'd spit out the answers (it was cool for 1986). Is the HHC and the RL-H18 related? From bwit at pobox.com Sun Jun 22 15:36:37 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: <01BC7F22.1478ADC0@ppp-151-164-40-220.rcsntx.swbell.net> Sam, Thanks for your efforts in the great AIM-65 buyout! I'll take two of the Panasonics. Regards, Bob ---------- From: Sam Ismail[SMTP:dastar@crl.com] Sent: Sunday, June 22, 1997 4:18 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: AIM65 Ok, here it is. Mike Westerfield, the guy with the AIM65s, phoned me yesterday and we spoke about the deal. He has been offered $125 for EACH unit from a company called Dynatem which still uses the AIMs commercially. Mike started a company way back with a product based on the AIM65. It was an insurance rate calculator. In order to make the product marketable, he designed a plastic and a metal-base enclosure. He also placed a compact power supply inside the enclosure to make for a nice complete package. He apparently was very successful with this venture and sold many. At this point, unless someone comes along and offers him more than $125 per unit and buys the whole lot, they are going to Dynatem. That's too rich for my blood. After explaining all this to me, and after I explained what we do here on classiccmp, Mike mentioned that he had a bunch of other stuff that we might be interested in. He has a whole basement full of stuff he would like to sell off. Here's what he told me he has: EPROM burners Logical Devices GangPro-S and GangPro-2S. These can burn 32 chips at a time. These also have other features which make them very nice. Logical Devices GangPro-8 and GangPro-4 which can burn 8 and 4 respectively. Optical Technologies EP-2A-88 and EP-2A-89. EPROMs A "ton" of NEC-2716 and Hitachi 2716 EPROMs He also has the line on hundreds of Panasonic RL-H18 palmtops. This is a palmtop which came out around 1985 and had FORTH in ROM. It also has a 20-col (or 40-col?) thermal printer and a case which bundles the two together. His company also developed an expansion "tray" which houses extra memory that the Panasonic can access through bank-switching. He sold this product to (I believe) an insurance firm and now they want to dump them all. Now again, he said they have hundreds, and were just going to shit-can them, but he said the company would most likely opt to get some money back for them if they could. He said probably about $10 per unit would get them, but they'd have to be purchased in one shot. Now I don't think that there are enough people here with an interest to buy one. I suggested that perhaps they can set aside a couple hundred and then shitcan the rest because I don't have a couple thousand lying around in which to buy all of them, nor would I want to. It's up to us to come up with a proposal. As far as dealing with Mike, I asked him contacting him. At this point, he would perfer the current arrangement whereby I am the central point of contact because it is easier for him. However, this tends to put me in a bad spot for certain reasons. I'm sure there will be people interested in working out a bulk deal with him. To those people I say feel free to contact him since he is most interested in getting rid of everything in one shot. He's not interested in dealing with onesies and twosies. So he would like for everyone who has an interest in a little here and a little there to contact me about it and then he's going to call me again in a week. This would refer mainly to someone wanting one of the panasonic's or a few EPROMs. As far as the Panasonics, he's finding out more information about quantity and we will talk more about price next week. As far as the EPROM burners, I would think that dealing directly with him would be best. Anyway, his e-mail address is Mikeooo1@aol.com. He's a very nice guy. He offered that if there was anyone in New Jersey (I believe there is at least one person here, I can't remember his name) to come on down to his place and he'll show you through all the stuff he has. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3725 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/e2746ac3/attachment.bin From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 22 15:49:27 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: info about... Message-ID: <199706222049.AA02583@world.std.com> I have a PC05 card (LSI-11) it's a punch reader interface. This one is different...it's a virgin bare board! Anyone that want's it let me know. Anyone know what a DEC 54-17101/2- ACTOR video daughter is used on? I have two of these. Allison From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 22 17:00:41 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706222036.4538@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 22, 97 09:36:12 pm Message-ID: <9706222100.AA01113@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1854 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/a78f4072/attachment.ksh From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Sun Jun 22 16:02:07 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Apple ][ design (was: Bad feelings) Message-ID: <970622160207.2040551a@wartburg.edu> >I can understand why the Apple ][ has a significant following - it was a >machine that was 'open', that hackers could get inside, etc. But I also >know that it's not a good piece of hardware design, and thus don't put it >high up my list of interesting machines. Perhaps I am merely biased from growing up with the Apple ][ at school and, later, at home, but I would say that some of the design is ingenious. I do know that many a programmer has complained about the arrangement of the high-resolution screen in memory (which was arranged the way it is to save components). But, I find the economy of this feature fascinating. The Apple ][ and its successors had great capabilities for expansion (with the possible exception of the IIc and IIc+). A IIe has the capability of using a hand-held scanner, for instance, with the right slot card and the right software. I'm sure the IIe wasn't designed originally for that task. There are numerous other examples as well. Your mileage may vary, of course. -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 22 19:27:35 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design References: <199706222036.4538@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <33ADC2F7.43AC@unix.aardvarkol.com> A.R. Duell wrote: > I can understand why the Apple ][ has a significant following - it was a > machine that was 'open', that hackers could get inside, etc. But I also > know that it's not a good piece of hardware design, and thus don't put it > high up my list of interesting machines. I'm a newbie to the world of Apple, spending my early years with Timex-Sinclair's and TRS-80's. I would have to say that your statement above though depends on what you call a 'good piece of hardware design'. For me, it ranks up there with the ZX-81 as an ingenius hardware design due to it's simplicity. I mean heck, as far as boards go, the Apple II mainboard is almost beautiful in it's layout due to this. I often find it interesting to think about the total 180 degree turn Apple did between the ][ series and the Mac's as far as expandability and such. They went from a totally open system to a totally closed system. They should've stuck with the open. As for the difference in a system using hardware to drive things or software, just look at the difference in some floppy drives used in various other things. The drives used for like the Atari 8bits were extremely flexible, as were those with the Amiga, while drives used on any PC, regardless of age unless it has a special controller, are very limited to just what the hardware will let them use. Of course, I don't have anywhere near the knowledge in this area that people like Allison do! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 (corrected URL) From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 22:21:51 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <9706222100.AA01113@alph02.triumf.ca>; from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 22, 97 2:00 pm Message-ID: <199706222121.4752@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > I can understand why the Apple ][ has a significant following - it was a > > machine that was 'open', that hackers could get inside, etc. But I also > > know that it's not a good piece of hardware design, and thus don't put it > > high up my list of interesting machines. > > It depends on how you define "good". Wozniak clearly had a different > definition - he would fret for days about reducing chip count by > using some clever scheme. From the hardware manufacturer's point > of view, a couple dozen assembly language instructions are free, while > chips (and board space) costs real money. Yes, but it some cases the 'kludges' led to problems later on - 'trivial' problems like a total incompatability between the Disk II and just about any other machine in the world, 'mariginal behaviour' like a case that overheated, a PSU that was beyond the design limit when running a system board, language card and 1 drive, things like that that caused some machines to crash after about 1 hour, that _crazy_ slot addressing scheme and the saving on chips/PSU consumption by switching the power line to the I/O card ROM - I may be old-fashioned, but I don't like driving input pins past the supply rails..., etc Saving components is only 'good' when it doesn't affect performance. I am not convinced that this is the case with the Apple ][ Oh, please don't think I am picking on Apple. The PERQ (my favourite machine) has a number of _very_ marginal timings. The various CPU board clocks are delayed with respect to each other by a string of TTL inverters and buffers. Some memory cards will only work in landscape mode - the timing is 'on the edge', so that the portrait mode doesn't work. And for those that do work in portrait mode as well you often have to change a coupld of chips to slower versions (say a 74S157 -> 74LS157) to get it to work correctly. > Wozniak's attempts to reduce chip count aren't very different than > the efforts that radio manufacturers have made to reduce tube counts. > Almost all consumer-grade superhets will combine the local oscillator > and the mixer, for example. Well, in the UK, a 'pentagrid converter' was very uncommon except in battery sets. Most mains superhets used a triode-hexode frequency changer - one 'bottle', but separate oscillator (triode) and mixer (hexode) sections. > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 22:31:38 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Apple ][ design (was: Bad feelings) In-Reply-To: <970622160207.2040551a@wartburg.edu>; from "Andy Brobston" at Jun 22, 97 4:02 pm Message-ID: <199706222131.4789@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > >I can understand why the Apple ][ has a significant following - it was a > >machine that was 'open', that hackers could get inside, etc. But I also > >know that it's not a good piece of hardware design, and thus don't put it > >high up my list of interesting machines. > > Perhaps I am merely biased from growing up with the Apple ][ at school > and, later, at home, but I would say that some of the design is > ingenious. I do know that many a programmer has complained about the Some of the Apple ][ design is ingenious - I'll agree to that. But, IMHO, there are plenty of other 'ingenious' machines where the aim was not to save a 10 cent chip, and thus the resulting hardware is a lot more stable. I'll admit now to having come to the Apple after a number of other micros. My Apple ]['s have _always_ been a lot less 'stable' than my much-hacked TRS-80 model 1, my Pets, my S100 systems, etc. It may be that I didn't spend enough time learning about the Apple so I didn't work out 'fixes' (as I said, my model 1 was modified...). The Apple ][ TechRef (and many other Apple ][ manuals of that time) are _excellent_, BTW. I learnt a lot from reading them. But I'd never use some of the tricks that were pulled there in my own designs. > arrangement of the high-resolution screen in memory (which was > arranged the way it is to save components). But, I find the economy of > this feature fascinating. I find it a kludge. We're both entitled to our views, and I have no desire to start a flame war over it. Please note that I can find kludges in just about any machine you care to name. > > The Apple ][ and its successors had great capabilities for expansion > (with the possible exception of the IIc and IIc+). A IIe has the > capability of using a hand-held scanner, for instance, with the right > slot card and the right software. I'm sure the IIe wasn't designed > originally for that task. There are numerous other examples as well. Well, I doubt that my 1972 PDP11/45 was designed to use SCSI disks, but it does now. I doubt my PERQ was designed to use 9-track magtape, but thanks to a Dylon tape interface it does now. And I certainly doubt that my Tandy CoCo was designed to have 3 extra serial ports and an _Apple_ digitising tablet, but a couple of homebrew boards have allowed it to. Just about _any_ 2 computer devices can be linked given enough time. It's not always worth the effort, but it's often fun... > Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 22:45:38 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <33ADC2F7.43AC@unix.aardvarkol.com>; from "Jeff Hellige" at Jun 22, 97 5:27 pm Message-ID: <199706222145.4857@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > A.R. Duell wrote: > > > I can understand why the Apple ][ has a significant following - it was a > > machine that was 'open', that hackers could get inside, etc. But I also > > know that it's not a good piece of hardware design, and thus don't put it > > high up my list of interesting machines. > > I'm a newbie to the world of Apple, spending my early years with > Timex-Sinclair's and TRS-80's. I would have to say that your statement > above though depends on what you call a 'good piece of hardware > design'. For me, it ranks up there with the ZX-81 as an ingenius > hardware design due to it's simplicity. I mean heck, as far as boards Well, the ZX81 is another machine on my 'kludge list' :-). Minimal hardware designs do not, in general interest me.... I love board after board stuffed with TTL. I have machines with a couple of _thousand_ chips in them, still running, and great fun to repair and maitain. Simplicity is nice, but inginuity is even nicer. Compare the Apple ][ video system with (say) a PPL or I2S framestore for a PDP11, and you'll see what _real_ video hardware is like (yes, I know, no comparison - the PDP11 framestores were 100 times the cost of an Apple ][). I've never liked bit-banged serial ports either (except on microcontrollers). They always seem to have problems with full-duplex operation. Yes, Apple sold a bit-banged serial port for a time - I have one with the manual (which, amazingly contains instructions on linking it to an ASR33), presumably to save a UART chip. They then sold one that worked properly (in full-duplex mode, etc) under the name 'super serial card'. It used (IIRC) a 6850 chip (or was it a 6551?) > go, the Apple II mainboard is almost beautiful in it's layout due to > this. I often find it interesting to think about the total 180 degree > turn Apple did between the ][ series and the Mac's as far as > expandability and such. They went from a totally open system to a > totally closed system. They should've stuck with the open. The minimalist approach to hardware was still present in (at least) the early Macs. I was inside a Mac+ the other day, and the mainboard seemed to consist of the expected chips (68000, ROMs, RAM SIMMs, 5380, 8530, etc) and a few PALs + TTL stuff. How the video side works is a mystery to me... Ditto the Apple Laserwriter 2NT (I've just been working on one). The engine interface on the formatter board seems to consist of a few bits on a VIA for the command/status lines, a small FIFO, a few TTL devices, a state machine in a PAL, and (I guess) some clever 68000 software. > > As for the difference in a system using hardware to drive things or > software, just look at the difference in some floppy drives used in > various other things. The drives used for like the Atari 8bits were > extremely flexible, as were those with the Amiga, while drives used on An Apple ][ drive + controller can't (AFAIK) read a standard FM or MFM disk, no matter how clever the software, just as a PC controller can't read a GCR (Apple or Commodore) disk. > any PC, regardless of age unless it has a special controller, are very > limited to just what the hardware will let them use. Of course, I don't This is true, but if you want to do strange things with PC (or any other) hardware then design the card you need. It's not that hard, and it won't affect the machine's performance in other areas. > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 22 17:45:47 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706222121.4752@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 22, 97 10:21:51 pm Message-ID: <9706222145.AA09874@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2782 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/8d8ecded/attachment.ksh From DASARNO at aol.com Sun Jun 22 16:58:07 1997 From: DASARNO at aol.com (DASARNO@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 needs home Message-ID: <970622175806_-493583379@emout17.mail.aol.com> Have a mint condition Kaypro 10, complete with all manuals. Looks like it came out of the box. Works great, all original software. If you know of anyone who has a serious interest, please e-mail me. Don Sarno From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 23:03:52 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <9706222145.AA09874@alph02.triumf.ca>; from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 22, 97 2:45 pm Message-ID: <199706222203.4930@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Yes, but it some cases the 'kludges' led to problems later on - 'trivial' > > problems like a total incompatability between the Disk II and just about > > any other machine in the world > > For the most part, 5.25" disks are incompatible between any > two machines. There never was a standard format, unlike the 8" > world where IBM 3740 dominated (though that didn't mean that > everyone was compatible with it.) Yes, but in general you could get 2 machines that used FM (or MFM) recording on 5.25" disks to agree on a common format to interchange data. I got my TRS-80 Model 1 and RML380Z (a UK CP/M machine) to transfer text files that way. > > > a PSU that was beyond the design limit when running a system > > board, language card and 1 drive > > No, it isn't. I just measured the system current drain (II+, 1 Disk ][ > drive, third-party language-card equivalent) and verified > this isn't true. It is true that every 10 years or so a power supply > will fail, but you can blame Astec for that. Maybe my motherboard is marginal, but I remember measuring the +5V drain of motherboard + Apple Language Card + disk II controller + Disk II as (I think - this was about 5 years ago) 2.6A. According to the label on my PSU, the maximum 5V drain is 2.5A. That's marginal. I have never had an Apple PSU fail, thankfully... > > > that _crazy_ slot addressing scheme > > That scheme is actually pretty clever. I can put a disk controller > in slot 5, type "CATALOG,S5" and look at a drive connected to it. > No DIPswitches to set, no BIOS to modify. I dislike 'geographical addressing' schemes in general. I'd rather have all my peripherals at fixed addresses no matter how I put the cards in the box. Also, geographical addressing limits the maximum number of slots you can have (something I tend to run out of on all my machines....) > I can put a printer card in slot 4, type "PR#4", and now all redirected > to the printer. I can put a serial card in slot 1, > type "IN#1", and now a keyboard hooked to a terminal on the serial OS-9, one of my favourite micro OS's has a very nice way of handling this. Suppose you want to add a serial card based on the 6551. You can have a _generic_ 6551 driver that has no idea of the address of your card, and then a device descriptor that contains the address and the paramter table (baud rate, whether you want a LF after a CR, a pause at the end of a screen,etc). Although most hackers used the standard assembler to make descriptors, it would be trivial to make a 'user friendly' installation tool. IMHO that's a much nicer way to do it than the Apple method which means you have to know which slot each card is in (and, in a lot of cases there are 'standard' slots for particular cards that you'd better stick to. What do you do if you want _2_ 80 column displays in the same machine? One in slot 3, what about the other one). > > and the saving on chips/PSU consumption by switching the power line to > > the I/O card ROM > > Which I/O card is this? I've never seen anything quite like this on > any of my peripherals (or if I have, I haven't noticed over the past > 20 years.) I have certainly seen 3rd party cards that did this. I forget the manufacturer, but they made a serial card using a real UART and a 9511 arithmetic copro card. I can look it up for you. There was a note in the manual on how to disable this 'feature' if you wanted to put RAM in the ROM sockets. I thought Apple did this on some of their cards. I will have to check my schematics. > > > Saving components is only 'good' when it doesn't affect performance. I am > > not convinced that this is the case with the Apple ][ > > Oh - you'd have preferred Wozniak to use single-density FM, getting > only 90kbytes per 5.25" floppy, over the GCR which lets you get As it happens, yes I would if it meant I could transfer data to just about any other machine of the time. > 140K? Or you'd rather lose some CPU cycles in order to refresh the > RAM, because your preferred memory-mapped screen layout wouldn't > allow the video circuitry to do it? Oh come on. You can scramble the address lines to the _RAM_ so that all cells get refreshed in a sufficiently short time and still have a linear address map as seen by the processor if you add a few more TTL chips. I've seen it done on countless other micros. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 22 17:06:12 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: bibliography References: <9706221534.AA09292@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33ADA1D4.625A@ndirect.co.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > What do you think of this bibliography? Have I missed any important book > > on the subject? Please help me in making this a useful refence for > > everybody to use, if you care. Thank you > > > > - An introduction to microcomputers (vol.0) by Adam Osborne, self > > published in 1977 > > An excellent book - but why do you leave out the other more > technical books by Osborne? Some of them go into great depth > in comparing some of the more bizarre early microcomputer chips > with very similar minis of the time. Because as it is written in the title this is a Historic HOME Computers bibliography. > > And there's one obvious book missing from your list: _The Soul > of a New Machine_, by Tracy Kidder. Maybe the reason it's missing > is because your list is so obviously biased towards tiny home > computers, but anyone who's interested in the culture of a > typical minicomputer manufacturer would love Kidder's book. Same answer as above. Perhaps someone could do another one for minis. enrico > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 22 17:14:38 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: Cocos References: <01BC7EDA.AE0BA3E0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> <33b15579.755586@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33ADA3CE.50CD@ndirect.co.uk> Benedict Chong wrote: > > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 07:01:08 -0500, you wrote: > > %Yes, that's correct. Over in the UK you had the Dragon, a neat > little machine. > > The dragon was the first computer I bought. I had the French version, > with a Peritel output. Paid 3000FF for it. > > To think that I sold it 5 months later. > > Ah, the stupidity and shortsightedness of youth.... > > Ben I have got plenty of Dragons 32 or 64 for sale/trade/swap if you want them. I need an IBM Junior and an Apple II. enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 22 17:18:42 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: bibliography(ies) References: <199706221709.AA24998@world.std.com> Message-ID: <33ADA4C2.5D39@ndirect.co.uk> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > HOME & PERSONAL COMPUTERS HISTORY BIBLIOGRAPHY > > > > Books listed as TITLE, AUTHOR, PUBLISHER AND PUBLICATION DATE > > An excellent list! > > I'd like to point out that between 77-81 timeframe you have a huge hole as > there was an explosion of books about microcomputers. > > Allison Yes, I know but I was trying to list only the essentials and those which deal with the history of the home computers. I ahve tones of the others (at least 200) but they are too specific. enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 22 17:09:34 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: bibliography References: <33AD0BCE.6207@ndirect.co.uk> <33AD4B9F.471D@rain.org> Message-ID: <33ADA29E.706A@ndirect.co.uk> Marvin wrote: > > e.tedeschi wrote: > > > > What do you think of this bibliography? Have I missed any important book > > on the subject? Please help me in making this a useful refence for > > everybody to use, if you care. Thank you > > > > One book that seems to be missing is a book published in about 1993 by > Stan Veit that talks about the history of microcomputing (sorry, don't > recall the title off hand.) A number of the articles were printed in > the Computer Shopper before the book was published and the information > was excellent. You are right. Funnily enough I had a breaf (postal) affair with Stan and he promised to send me a copy of his book in exchange for one of mine (about collecting Sinclair products an, of course, Sinclair computers). enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 22 17:25:38 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:02 2005 Subject: bibliography References: <199706221821.OAA23664@granite.sentex.net> Message-ID: <33ADA662.BCA@ndirect.co.uk> Commercial Computing Museum wrote: > > What a wonderful idea. Such a list is ideal for a web site. I will gather a > few more titles (espeically biographical books by and about CEO's from NCR, > Raytheon, GE, DEC, etc.) and send them off to you. > > Kevin Hold it! This list is for HOME computers ONLY. You could do another one for minis (in fact that would be very useful but only if you do one for the HISTORY of them as otherwise there would be too many specific titles). I see that now we seem to get on the right track.....Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 17:35:34 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) In-Reply-To: <199706220646.XAA00883@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Olminkhof wrote: > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Olminkhof wrote: > > > keyboard 4k version, a CBM 3032 and a CBM 8032 hulk. I suspect they > will > > > always be around because they are so hard to destroy. The case is very > > > solid. I found the "hulk" in a paddock, like some people find ancient > cars! > > > I've never attempted to power this one up though. > > > > I take "paddock" is Strine for "junkyard", and open to the elements? > > "paddock" is an english word for a place where animals graze. Who said classiccmp isn't open to other cultures? That's a cultural exchange if I ever saw one. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 22 17:55:19 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Cocos In-Reply-To: <33ADA3CE.50CD@ndirect.co.uk> References: <01BC7EDA.AE0BA3E0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> <33b15579.755586@smtp.ix.netcom.com> <33ADA3CE.50CD@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33b4ac8a.3048632@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 22:14:38 +0000, you wrote: %I have got plenty of Dragons 32 or 64 for sale/trade/swap if you want %them. I need an IBM Junior and an Apple II. We're on different sides of the Atlantic. Actually, I'm on the east side of the Pacific, so it'd be difficult to actually exchange anything. Looking at the list of articles, there's an answer I owe you regarding the old microprocessors. Go and buy an issue of Elektor from the nearest WHSmith and see if you can order some back issues from the early 1990s. Look for two page ads with lots of component listings. One of the companies is the one that used to advertise older microprocessors. I haven't bought an issue of Elektor for many years now, so don't know if the company is still around. Ben From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 17:51:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Cocos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > IIRC, there was some debate in the _really_ early rainbow magazines. > (Or maybe it was in the 80 Micros. I have those, I'll have to check > later.) They were trying to decide a nickname for the Colour > Computer. I don't remember off hand what some of the other candidates > were, but there were some people who thought CoCo was too 'cute' or > non-business like or some such. I've always held the nickname as being rather obnoxious. Calling it the "COC" would have been more masculine and macho! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From maynard at jmg.com Sun Jun 22 18:33:13 1997 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: bibliography In-Reply-To: <9706221534.AA09292@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > What do you think of this bibliography? Have I missed any important book > > on the subject? Please help me in making this a useful refence for > > everybody to use, if you care. Thank you > > > > - An introduction to microcomputers (vol.0) by Adam Osborne, self > > published in 1977 > > An excellent book - but why do you leave out the other more > technical books by Osborne? Some of them go into great depth > in comparing some of the more bizarre early microcomputer chips > with very similar minis of the time. The whole Adam Osborne 'microcomputers' series are *still* valuable books as technical trainers. I used to have the series, but for some reason have only book 0 left. I wish they would be reissued with a bent towards the home computer hobbyist as it was. Even just republishing the old series would probably be a money maker as, no doubt, there are many who still remember the quality of his books. If anyone wishes to sell any Osborne titles, especially from the 'microcomputer' series, I'm a buyer. Maynard From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 22 18:41:37 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > The Color Computers were: > > Color Computer 1: Silver/black, 4K-64K > > Color Computer 2: White, 4K-64K > I have a CoCo2 that's yellow, and I don't think it's from aging. The plastic they made the case for the Color Computer 2 started out white in every example I've ever seen, but it definitely yellows with age and exposure to light. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 18:35:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: <33b16772.489808903@mail.capital.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Frank Peseckis wrote: > Sam, if you are planning to add up the count-me-in's for the palmtops > and act as the representative to buy a bunch from Mike as a single lot > for people on the list who express interest, count me in for two of > them. > > If this does happen, how do you want to handle the logistics of > payment and shipping? Not sure yet. Off hand I would think maybe we can organize a distrubution system where we would send a bunch off to people in different parts of the country and then have them re-distribute. On second thought, that sounds too complicated. I wouldn't be adverse to taking the whole lot and then re-sending them out to everyone, but that sounds like a lot of work for me. Not sure yet. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 18:53:09 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Classsic Computing Newsgroup revisited In-Reply-To: <33AD8ABC.6F05@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > About a month or two back we were discussing starting a newsgroup for > classic computer collectors. I just wanted to mention there is a > somewhat related newsgroup on the net that could use some activity: > > alt.technology.obsolete > > I am for it, I have it on my news sites to check and in the last few > months I have maybe seen three messages in it (two being multi-newsgroup > spams) > > Whaddya guys (and gals) think? Sounds lie a plan. The trick is to get the word out. Perhaps a carefully placed message in alt.computers.folklore will get some people to check it out and start contributing. Larry, perhaps you could post a message proclaiming that you are commandeering alt.technology.obsolete for the discussion of old computers and if nobody objects, its ours. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 22 22:08:03 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Current wanted list References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F9DF61@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33ADE893.3946@unix.aardvarkol.com> I've seen numerous people mention finding Apple ///'s that they found or saw, and was wondering if someone would be willing to make a deal on one or pick one up? That or I'd like to find just about any make micro from the mid to late 70's since that is one era that my collection totally lacks examples of. Thanks. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 (corrected URL) From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 18:49:04 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Label Remover In-Reply-To: <199706221844.3985@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > There was a thread here a few weeks back about dealing with those sticky > labels that seem to accumulate on classic computers. > > I've just bought a can of a substance called 'Electrolube (the brand name) > Label Remover'. You spray it on, wait a few minutes, and rub the label > off. I used it yesterday to remove some _strong_ double-sided adhesive > tape inside my laser printer, and it did the job extremely well. > > The can claims that it may attack some plastics (so take care on classic > micro cases!), and it's not that cheap (\pounds 4.00 for a small-ish > spraycan from Maplin). But it certainly does the job. Ok, I've stumbled across some good shit. It's called Trichlorethane (I may be wrong about the name) but it's basically supposed to be used as a VCR/VTR head cleaner but is also used as a general cleaner/degreaser. It takes tape spooge off like it was nothing. There is also a product called Blue Shower and Blue Shower II which also makes great cleaners, but they are expensive. I bought an 8oz can of Blue Shower II for $12.90 and was done with it in under 5 minutes trying to remove some tape spooge from a computer case. Not worth the price in my opinion as it didn't do a very good job. I then found out quite by accident that rubbing alcohol works well for removing tape spooge if used in large volume. I spilled about 4 oz. of rubbing alcohol on my garage floor and sopped it up with a rag. Figuring I might as well use it, I started rubbing the tape spooge on the case and it came off quite easily. Try it sometime. I'll verify the generic name of the cleaner I mentioned above. The real stuff was banned because of its tendency to contribute to the ever-widening hole in the ozone layer, but the spray product they have now is effective at removing all sorts of grime. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 19:04:52 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706221951.4344@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > from, there are compnents of computers that are shear art as the disk > > controller in the apple II (from what I read the board was drawn 'not > > I'll have to disagree with you there. IMHO the Disk II controller is > nothing other than a kludge. It could certainly have done with a track 0 > sensor (that would have stopped the heads from banging on start-up). And, > as a hardware designer, I don't like designs where most of the > functionality is handled in software. Blasphemer! No really though, if you must call the Disk ][ controller a kludge, at least qualify it by calling it a beautiful kludge, which it is. Also, having software control over the disk drive is not a bad thing at all. It allowed you to play directly with the bits on the disks and make your own disk formats. It provided years of fun and challenge during my teenage days trying to crack the ever-more-complicated disk copy protection schemes that the software houses kept creating by way of being able to control the disk circuitry from software. > > totally in the dark about). Case in point, Exidy Sorceror, I purchased > > one and sent it to Sam Ismael, he is now looking for information, not > > very many people ever seen one, much less an ad for one, sometimes the > > Somewhere I have a Techref for the Sorceror, and one for the S100 adapter > for it. I also have some user group newsletters, etc. Feel free to pester > me on this list if you want me to dig this stuff out. > > BTW, it's not up for grabs. I need it to maintain my Sorceror :-) Tony, any information you can e-mail me or send me concerning the Sorcerer would be appreciated. I need information about the power requirements, plus just general information such as how much RAM it came with, processor type, built-in languages, etc. Thanks. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jrice at texoma.net Sun Jun 22 19:27:00 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: CoCo Kits Message-ID: <33ADC2D4.6A5B78@texoma.net> I have an unusual CoCo 2...it was produced as a kit form. I bought it at a RS tent sale in Dallas in 1985-86. I thought it was a plug in the boards kit, but when I got it home it was totally bare boards. Took several hours of soldering to complete. I was told by a friend who was a RS manager, that they were a pilot program for schools to have classes assemble the machines and then the school would have alow cost path to getting more computers. Tandy later decided that this would be a warranty nightmare and sold the kits for $20 at the tent sale. From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 22 19:32:28 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > > [re; CoCo Max cartridge] > > > The cartridge is a high-resolution joystick interface that worked with > > > (if you had a Multi-pak Interface) the CoCo-Max drawing program. Mine > > > was stolen ten years ago, but it was a very nice system. > > Were the standard joysticks from Radio Shack not hi-res enough to use for > > drawing? > > The same joysticks were used, though the Deluxe type were better -- the > CoCo Max interface was realy good "fine tuning", it read and interpreted > the position better. To clarify things a little bit, the regular joystick ports resolved to values of 0-63 horizontally and vertically. This was great for games, but totally inadequate for fine detail in the higher graphic resolutions, i.e. 256x192. I absolutely cannot recall what range of values the Coco-Max interface resolved, but it was at least 256x256. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jun 22 19:33:52 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: bibliography Message-ID: <199706230037.RAA14019@mx5.u.washington.edu> Anyone want some DEC Rainbow software? I have Symphony, plus some accounting stuff and misc manuals. Pay shipping (from Ohio, USA) and it's yours. I know where there are some Rainbow macines which could be had for next to nothing, if anyone wants. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 22 20:42:37 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Free DRI, CP/M, MP/M etc. docs Message-ID: <9706230042.AA00649@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 902 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/fc6d2466/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 22 19:45:06 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: <199706140251.WAA17501@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Brett once stated: > > I have a pristene TI Xenix 386DX16 system. > > The first is via sendmail. There used to be a way to get into a debugging > > The second requires the Intel 386 Assembly and assumes you have fingerd > running (has to be fingerd). What this entails is feeding the fingerd Networking was not part of the standard Xenix distribution in those days, so both of those holes are unlikely to be available. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sun Jun 22 19:57:39 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Shipping Abroad, bla, bla, bla Message-ID: <33ADCA03.2E58@oboe.calpoly.edu> Thought I would toss out some of my experiences with shipping out of the country. I've sold a few items to various people in other countries (not all computer stuff though). Only problem I've had was waiting for payment. Sometimes it's not sent, sometimes it get's lost. The buyer covers shipping and any taxes/duty when they get delivery. Japan: I sold a couple old Apples as I think they're pretty popular for collectibles there. Hard to find. Some people I sold to were US citizens living there. Shipping is cheapest via USPS slow boat and the customs paperwork is one small form. Australia: Sold some small stuff. Payment arrived faster than most US mail. Shipping is cheap for under 4 lbs "small packets" via USPS and again Customs is a piece of cake. Europe: Austria, Italy. They seem to have a problem with the mail. I sold some cheaper stuff so the buyer sent a money order - lost. Then he sent cash - lost. Ended up wiring the money. According to him he sent out 12 payments at one time and 5 never arrived at the destination. I'd say wiring money is better. Again customs is easy. USPS tells you what to fill out. Canada: Piece of cake. Just be honest on the contents/value. Guam: Shipping is really cheap because its serviced by USPS. Like mailing within the continental US! There was some controversy a while back about exporting collectibles. Supposedly you could buy a concours collector's car for $20k, ship it to europe or Japan and sell it for $50k. Some collectors thought this was treason or something. I really don't know. What I usually sell doesn't fall into any "rare" category and most of it was sold all over the world anyway, just in lesser quantities or slightly different versions. One guy I sold to was in the US. I asked him why he was buying a pile of old Apples, he was putting together complete systems and shipping them to Japan. Funny, Apple had/has a ton of manufacturing in Japan. I wonder if they limit sales there. From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 19:15:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: <199706222042.PAA15389@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 starling@umr.edu wrote: > Are these the same as the Panasonic HHC? I've got a couple of those. > They look like a glorified calculator (but wide and short instead of long > and skinny) with a QWERTY on it... one-line display, and they take > programs in the form of ROM chips that you actually plug into the sockets > in the back of the bugger. One of mine I got from a guy who used to work I was assuming it was as you describe, and thus the same machine. I'll find out for sure though. The one you describe is the one I want, and hopefully is the same as the ones Mike has/ Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 22 19:52:18 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: A trip back in time in Boston In-Reply-To: <9706141443.AA23097@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I personally disagree with the "highly modified" == "not a museum piece". > Museums which insist on having early computers be "as shipped from > the factory" (or, as was more often the case "as assembled using the > instructions") will be sorely disappointed in the event they expect > them to run when turned on. After all, other museums don't insist that their dinosaurs be "as shipped from the factory". -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 19:13:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706222036.4538@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > I can understand why the Apple ][ has a significant following - it was a > machine that was 'open', that hackers could get inside, etc. But I also > know that it's not a good piece of hardware design, and thus don't put it > high up my list of interesting machines. Ok, now you're getting downright insulting! :) On the contrary, the Apple ][ is such an interesting machine BECAUSE of the tricks the Woz used to arrive at the design. Sure its got some terrible features, especially the graphics, but they could all be overcome with clever software tricks, and that's why (in my opinion of course) the best programmers came from the Apple ][ realm. You HAD to be good. Whatever it was about the Apple ][, it still lives on today and enjoys a healthy user base. I still have mine sitting in a corner that I still fire up for various reasons (moslty nostalgia and to make copies of software for people). However, once I get around to imnplementing my grand network scheme in my office, my Apple will actually be a server on the network (via serial) that I can access to pull old files off my Sider][ harddrive. And that, incidentally, will require some clever programming. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 19:34:43 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <199706222145.4857@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > This is true, but if you want to do strange things with PC (or any other) > hardware then design the card you need. It's not that hard, and it won't > affect the machine's performance in other areas. But its much faster and easier to do it with software. One of the things that made the Apple so nice was that it was an excellent prototyping machine. You had all sorts of inputs and outputs with which to play with. You didn't need to spend time designing an interface card, the Apple was experimenter ready! Just add software. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 19:27:42 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706222121.4752@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > Yes, but it some cases the 'kludges' led to problems later on - 'trivial' > problems like a total incompatability between the Disk II and just about > any other machine in the world, 'mariginal behaviour' like a case that > overheated, a PSU that was beyond the design limit when running a system > board, language card and 1 drive, things like that that caused some > machines to crash after about 1 hour, that _crazy_ slot addressing scheme > and the saving on chips/PSU consumption by switching the power line to > the I/O card ROM - I may be old-fashioned, but I don't like driving input > pins past the supply rails..., etc > > Saving components is only 'good' when it doesn't affect performance. I am > not convinced that this is the case with the Apple ][ OK, now you're just outright wrong. I've never had any of the problems you mentioned above with any of my apples. The only problems I ever had was when I pulled the disk controller card from my ][+ when it was still powered on (I was young and lame). As far as the system over-heating, nope. Never happened. PSU beyond the design limit when running a system board? What on earth are you talking about? Crashed after an hour? Mine never, ever spontaneously crashed, and I've owned several. Crazy slot addressing scheme? I think it wored rather well. And the language card was for the ][+ to have backward compatibility with the ][. That's bad design? Actually, that's called "customer friendly". Of course, you're entitled to your opinion Tony, but I think it's driven mostly by ignorance (I don't mean that in a bad way) or just plain bad luck. > Oh, please don't think I am picking on Apple. The PERQ (my favourite > machine) has a number of _very_ marginal timings. The various CPU board > clocks are delayed with respect to each other by a string of TTL inverters > and buffers. Some memory cards will only work in landscape mode - the > timing is 'on the edge', so that the portrait mode doesn't work. And for > those that do work in portrait mode as well you often have to change a > coupld of chips to slower versions (say a 74S157 -> 74LS157) to get it to > work correctly. If what you described above is correct, then did it work? If so, it wasn't such a bad design after all, was it? If not, then yeah, the design sucked. What you describe here, in contrast to the Apple design, is in fact poor design. The Apple ][, as designed the way it was, worked fine. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 22 20:57:14 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Shipping Abroad, bla, bla, bla In-Reply-To: <33ADCA03.2E58@oboe.calpoly.edu> from "Greg Mast" at Jun 22, 97 05:57:39 pm Message-ID: <9706230057.AA11143@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1235 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/e92e6d09/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 22 21:03:52 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 22, 97 05:13:49 pm Message-ID: <9706230103.AA21423@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 647 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/a3bd4348/attachment.ksh From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 19:42:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706222203.4930@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > IMHO that's a much nicer way to do it than the Apple method which means > you have to know which slot each card is in (and, in a lot of cases there > are 'standard' slots for particular cards that you'd better stick to. What > do you do if you want _2_ 80 column displays in the same machine? One in > slot 3, what about the other one). That was a limitation introduced with the //e. The 80 column board had its own special slot that took over slot 3 if you had it populated. However, nothing was stopping you from putting another 80-column board (such as a Videx) in another slot and using that, although I can't think for the life of me why you'd need two 80-column cards. > > > Saving components is only 'good' when it doesn't affect performance. I am > > > not convinced that this is the case with the Apple ][ > > > > Oh - you'd have preferred Wozniak to use single-density FM, getting > > only 90kbytes per 5.25" floppy, over the GCR which lets you get > > As it happens, yes I would if it meant I could transfer data to just about > any other machine of the time. That's what serial cards and null modems are for :) (I think this discussion has acheived 'holy war' status). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Jun 22 20:36:14 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: H8 Computer In-Reply-To: <33AD6E9C.3E14@rain.org> References: <3.0.1.32.19970622111238.00f7bcc0@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970622183614.00dbe654@agora.rdrop.com> At 11:27 AM 6/22/97 -0700, you wrote: >What is a Heath H8 worth? A friend of mine turned my on to a Heathkit >H8, H19 terminal, 5 1/4" drives, 8" drives, and all manuals and docs. >The guy wants $100 for the lot and I don't know if this is reasonable or >not. I told him I am not interested in cheating or paying him a lot >less than what it might be worth, but I don't want to pay more either >:). Sigh... as with all things, it is worth as much or as little as you can obtain it for. I have nearly all of the items you have listed in my collection (except for the 8 inch drives) and it was all given to me. So, would it be worth $100 to *me*? Probably not... If I was making an offer, probably between $20-40 depending on condtion and what optional cards were included. Its worth to you? Only you can decide. >Also FWIW, he sold a Heathkit 6800 logic kit for $35 yesterday. Again, >I don't know if that is reasonable or not, but the unit did sound >interesting. See above... B^} (not sure I've ever seen one) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Sun Jun 22 20:34:58 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Classsic Computing Newsgroup revisited In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199706230134.UAA10556@fudge.uchicago.edu> Sam Ismail wrote, > Larry, perhaps you could post a message proclaiming that you are > commandeering alt.technology.obsolete for the discussion of old > computers and if nobody objects, its ours. But with alt.folklore.computers and comp.society.folklore, is there really a need for a *third* newsgroup about the history of computers? Especially one that would have a misleading name and isn't carried everywhere? eric From ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu Sun Jun 22 20:41:43 1997 From: ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu (Yujin Nagasawa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: BOOK The History of Computers Message-ID: <199706230138.VAA07887@abel.ic.sunysb.edu> It was sold out. I am sorry. Yujin ---------- > ???o?l : PG Manney > ???? : Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > ???? : Re: BOOK The History of Computers > ???M???? : 1997?N6??20?? 20:22 > > I'd like to buy. Can I reserve it? Please e-mail me with your address and > I'll send you a check. (woukd you prefer money order? some sort of trade? I > have scads of old computer stuff.) > Manney > > ---------- > > From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > To: Manney > > Subject: FS: BOOK The History of Computers > > Date: Friday, June 20, 1997 1:52 PM > > > > For Sale: > > > > The History of Computers -A Family Alubum of Computer Genealogy- > > by Les Freed > > ZD press > > ISBN 1-56276-275-3 > > all color and lots of pictures and illustrations > > > > $12 (shipping included within the United States, original price is > $24.95) > > From cerebral at michianatoday.com Sun Jun 22 21:01:07 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... Message-ID: <02010783012841@michianatoday.com> At 05:04 PM 6/22/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > >> > from, there are compnents of computers that are shear art as the disk >> > controller in the apple II (from what I read the board was drawn 'not >> >> I'll have to disagree with you there. IMHO the Disk II controller is >> nothing other than a kludge. It could certainly have done with a track 0 >> sensor (that would have stopped the heads from banging on start-up). And, >> as a hardware designer, I don't like designs where most of the >> functionality is handled in software. > >Blasphemer! No really though, if you must call the Disk ][ controller a >kludge, at least qualify it by calling it a beautiful kludge, which it is. >Also, having software control over the disk drive is not a bad thing at >all. It allowed you to play directly with the bits on the disks and make >your own disk formats. It provided years of fun and challenge during my >teenage days trying to crack the ever-more-complicated disk copy >protection schemes that the software houses kept creating by way of being >able to control the disk circuitry from software. > >> > totally in the dark about). Case in point, Exidy Sorceror, I purchased >> > one and sent it to Sam Ismael, he is now looking for information, not >> > very many people ever seen one, much less an ad for one, sometimes the >> >> Somewhere I have a Techref for the Sorceror, and one for the S100 adapter >> for it. I also have some user group newsletters, etc. Feel free to pester >> me on this list if you want me to dig this stuff out. >> >> BTW, it's not up for grabs. I need it to maintain my Sorceror :-) > >Tony, any information you can e-mail me or send me concerning the >Sorcerer would be appreciated. I need information about the power >requirements, plus just general information such as how much RAM it came >with, processor type, built-in languages, etc. Thanks. > >Sam Hello there, I an fairly new here, but I am interested in all kinds of hardware and software hacks. Someone out there mentioned the 'sophistication' of the Apple ]['s video addressing, saying that the RAM refresh steals CPU cycles, Apples method is worse than a kludge, it was simply a crufted idea. yes, the Disk II is an elegent kludge,as ALL of my homebrewed electronic gear are kludges just to make them work!. My first computer was a Commodore 64, and comparing it to apples(not oranges :0) the 64 is WAY more advanced, and it too shares a medium populated motherboard. I can do 90% of the multimedia stuff on the 64 as you can with a P-133! my point being, the Apple and 64 both had 6502 compatible proccessors, but the 6510 used by the 64 has smarter memory mangament, and it is fast enough to refresh the ram AND do sprite graphics AND use bit mapped memory. adding perhiperals to the 64 via the serial bus worked NICE, and I can prove history is repeating itself. Look at the new USB (Universal Serial Bus) standard, where they want to run evrything from keyboards, mice, modems etc... the Wintel croud calls it BRAND NEW IDEA, but we did this 10 years or more ago. I got a good taste of Apple's machines in school, and they were ok, but nothing I would ever try to own. the only drawback to the C=64 is that it did not have an expansion bus built in, however it did have a expansion connector which you can hook up a passive backplane to. I dont have much classic stuff but here is what I have: 3 CoCo's, one with 1 floppy drive, all 16K machines. the floppy drive as sold by radio shack is actually an IBM compatible 5.25 drive! the ONLY difference is an attempt by radio shack to foil anyone trying to USE off the shelf floppy drives by placing the ribbon connector on the opposite side, and because of this, the data cable was too short to connect the normal drive. But the controller card and pinouts are all the same IBM standard. The reason was that radio scrap wanted to charge you $400 for adding a drive that costed $50 max at the time. so IBM drives are not limited and can be used in any way, it just takes more hacker skill to implement it. 3 Commodore 64's, one is souped up with JiffyDOS, 1 meg REU, and 1.6 MEG floppy drive. 2 Commodore 128's both work and was extensively used, and because of this, they are on the verge of expiring... the keyboards on the 128's were never as durable as the 64's. 1 IBM XT works, but needs XT keyboard. 1 IBM 286-12, works too, and loaded with MORE TTL than the XT was.... Now the rest of the bunch are not classic, but I will place them here to make the list complete. 1 Acer 386-33, used as a file server 1 home built AMD 586 machine which is what I am composing this message from. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 22 21:21:38 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Apple ][ design (was: Bad feelings) Message-ID: <199706230221.AA22266@world.std.com> I never thought much of the apple design save for it was there and successful by the only standard that counts...they sold like hotcakes. It's not a technical judgement as that really didn't count! there were some machines I considered poor, TRS-80-M1, at a time when z80 was minimally 2mhz and many pushing 2.5 it plodded at 1.7, but it was a complete machine for much less than many of it's kind and available through a nationally known store. Price vs performance _and_ popularity drove a market not real technology. If it was useable and met the current market expectations it sold well. If there was one significant impact apple made it was in the idea of low cost software. Apples were not the home of $350 basic interpreters or $500 compilers. But at one time I counted not less that 5 distictly different OSs. Some were pretty poor but the drive to improve the beast was there. Allison From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Jun 22 21:26:10 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706221951.4344@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <33AD808B.1972@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970622192610.00dbeb70@agora.rdrop.com> At 08:51 PM 6/22/97 BST, you wrote: >> I think that may be personal views by individual collectors and not by >> the group in whole. Some feel that not having 'original parts' or >> add-ons is blasphmey. I can understand and appreciate where you come > >Hmmm... I see nothing wrong with replacing components in a system - that, >to me, is a natural thing that would have happened to the machine when it >was in use. I can understand people who feel differently, though. > >> from, there are compnents of computers that are shear art as the disk >> controller in the apple II (from what I read the board was drawn 'not > >I'll have to disagree with you there. IMHO the Disk II controller is >nothing other than a kludge. It could certainly have done with a track 0 >sensor (that would have stopped the heads from banging on start-up). And, >as a hardware designer, I don't like designs where most of the >functionality is handled in software. Ok, as much as I've tried to restrain myself from getting drawn into any of these 'no-win' threads, I'm going to toss out some comments here. Be warned however, I'm not going to spend a lot of follow-up time trying to defend or explain my positions, so take them for what they are worth. (exactly what you paid for them!) [SOAPBOX MODE ON!] you *have* been warned! First: there has been a good bit of going on about how bad various designs are or were. (latest example above) My take: it's all a pointless waste of bandwidth! It's all too easy to look back on designs and decisions that are 20+ years old and declare them to be "bad" or "deficient", or whatever your favourite derogatory phrase is, but if you were around then and so darn advanced in design and implementation, why didn't you jump in with the "better" design, make *lots* of money, and bump Bill Gates off his throne? When the Apple Disk II came out, most of us in the business at the time were amazed that a disk controller could be fully implemented (from a hardware standpoint) in only 8 chips (!) *none* of which had more than 16 legs! Before you go snarfing about how "bad" it is, look at what else was available during the same period! 50 to 80 chips, LSI contoller chips, power regulators, and still a pot of supporting software! Or the original Altair design. Yes, it was less than "optimal". If you knew the history behind it, you would know that the cpu baord design was copied almost verbatim from the Intel 8080 design books. What else was out there at the time? Updates and changes were published generally as they were worked out. Does that make the unit "bad"? Or the designers of the time "stupid"? Gee, where *were* the "experts" in 8080 system design in 1975??? If the designs in the Intel books were so "bad", obviously *they* did not have too many experts either! Next: there seems to be a *lot* of thrashing over these percieved cross-national/cultural/"it takes too long to get a reply"/"why are you ignoring me" 'slights'. My take: BULL! A mailing list is like a group of voulenteers, they do what they can, when they can, and *if* they want! Sorry if you don't like this, but I see on average 130-150 messages a DAY from this list and the others that I *need* to review for my real life job, and I can't always get to every thing that passes by my screen! Not that I *should* either. I tend *not* to comment on things that I don't have a fair knowledge base on. I suspect a lot of people on this list operate in a similar fashion. If I have something to say on a topic, I will if I have time or I might file it away in my "to do" file and get back to it later. Do I forget messages from time to time, yes. Do I decide to just not answer a message from time to time, yes. Am I going to waste a lot of time feeling guilty about it? NO! Unless I missed something in the lists charter, *no one* here is *obligated* to do *anything*! Same with selling/trading/shipping gear. If it is worth it *to me*, I'll do it. If not, sorry but its my choice! I don't much care who you are, where you are, or what you want! (hell, I've turned down offers from Bill Gates!) *If* it is worthwhile to me, and I believe that I can get the item to/from a point intact, fine. I'll probably do it. If not, thanks for the interest and have a nice day. If you don't like it and want to start a flame war, go right ahead but you will do it *without* me! (for the most part) (trying to calm down now...) Let's get this list back to its intended purpose. If people want to bicker over procedures, policies, or who offended who, take it to alt.flame, take it offline or take it private! I for one don't want to waste time wading through the politics and drivel! No one *has* to be here, and if things don't start calming down and getting back on track, soon no one will... [SOAPBOX MODE OFF] -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From william at ans.net Sun Jun 22 21:31:47 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706230231.AA03591@interlock.ans.net> > Sun hardware was damn sturdy. Their later servers - such as the > current E3000 and E4000's I don't think are really as tough as something > like one of the old 3/280's.... Man those things are tough and still in > production in rare situations. We have a 3/60 in production just to gdb > code because our 680x0 cross development/emulation platform doesn't handle > debuggers terribly well. I have a 3/280 (or 4/280) and I must admit that it _is_ built like a battleship (well, as far as computers go). It is a big rackmount VME system, originally used for server work. I rarely use mine, as it is a real power sucker (32 megs made of 256K DRAMs has something to do with that). Note that many late model Sun-3s can be converted to SPARCs with a simple card swap (I have both cards - a real suprise when I opened the machine the first time, expecting to find Motorola). Of all of the early SPARCs (Sun-4), SPARCstation 370s and 470s seem to be the most common. They also tend to be cheap, as Solaris no longer supports the early architecture. They also make fine furniture (they are quite large, and have a power supply you can nearly weld with). Sun really knows how to make nice looking machines - their designer seems to be rebelling against the "round" look - take a look at just about any Ultra and you will see what I mean. > > Does anyone have a timeline for Sun machines and OS's? > > > No, but I think you might want to check the Sun Hardware Reference > FAQ available at: Is there a similar FAQ for _old_ SGIs? "This Old SGI" starts with the MIPs architecture, but I need help with a much older IRIS 2500T. William Donzelli william@ans.net From spc at armigeron.com Sun Jun 22 21:48:22 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 22, 97 05:42:12 pm Message-ID: <199706230248.WAA15427@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Sam Ismail once stated: > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > IMHO that's a much nicer way to do it than the Apple method which means > > you have to know which slot each card is in (and, in a lot of cases there > > are 'standard' slots for particular cards that you'd better stick to. What > > do you do if you want _2_ 80 column displays in the same machine? One in > > slot 3, what about the other one). > > That was a limitation introduced with the //e. The 80 column board had > its own special slot that took over slot 3 if you had it populated. > However, nothing was stopping you from putting another 80-column board > (such as a Videx) in another slot and using that, although I can't think > for the life of me why you'd need two 80-column cards. > Debugging. You can run your program on one screen, and have debugging output/debugger output on the second screen. I did that once on a PS/2 when I was writing code to manage the 8514 display. It was very nice to see not only the output, but have the debugger not munging the display. -spc (Could easily get addicted to a system with duo displays) From william at ans.net Sun Jun 22 22:16:55 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <02010783012841@michianatoday.com> Message-ID: <199706230316.AA05134@interlock.ans.net> > history is repeating itself. Look at the new USB (Universal Serial Bus) > standard, where they want to run evrything from keyboards, mice, modems > etc... the Wintel croud calls it BRAND NEW IDEA, but we did this 10 years or > more ago. This is no suprise. Most of what _any_ computer manufacturer calls a "BRAND NEW IDEA" generally turns out to be something done years ago by someone else. Micros and microprocessors tend to be the most guilty, minis a bit less. Just about everything in the industry was tried at some point by IBM, Xerox, or the BUNCH. Yes, there are plenty of true innovations today, but most are simply hype... William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Sun Jun 22 22:37:00 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Drives are gone! In-Reply-To: <33AD4D5D.5284@rain.org> Message-ID: <199706230337.AA05637@interlock.ans.net> Thank you to all that re-responded. The drives will be used on some old workstations - DEC, Sun, and Apollo. More freebies to follow. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Sun Jun 22 22:39:20 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Univac Card Punch Base In-Reply-To: <33AD4D5D.5284@rain.org> Message-ID: <199706230339.AA05689@interlock.ans.net> > Anyone have any use for or want a Univac Card Punch Base? I bought this > thing probably 15 or 20 years ago before I started collecting, tore it > apart and threw away the main unit and kept the base which I used as a > desk. I kind of hate to toss it and I would MUCH prefer to give it > away. Is anything left of the electronics? RCS/RI has one of these things that may be missing parts. Finding replacements may be a REAL problem. I should do a quick audit of our unit, and let you know if we need anything. Where are you located? William Donzelli william@ans.net From KFergason at aol.com Sun Jun 22 23:11:48 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 needs home Message-ID: <970623001147_-1864698027@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-22 22:13:42 EDT, you write: << Have a mint condition Kaypro 10, complete with all manuals. Looks like it came out of the box. Works great, all original software. If you know of anyone who has a serious interest, please e-mail me. Don Sarno >> I would be interested. what are you looking for? Kelly From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 22 23:26:55 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Univac Card Punch Base References: <199706230339.AA05689@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <33ADFB0F.A38@rain.org> William Donzelli wrote: > > > Anyone have any use for or want a Univac Card Punch Base? I bought this > > Is anything left of the electronics? RCS/RI has one of these things that > may be missing parts. Finding replacements may be a REAL problem. > No, I am afraid not, the ONLY thing left is the metal base. When I moved about 1981, I had to get rid of a bunch of stuff and everything on that card punch except the base went. I have been using the base as a table for quite a while and NEED to make room. From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jun 22 23:34:50 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: "A.R. Duell"'s message of Sun, 22 Jun 1997 22:45:38 BST References: <199706222145.4857@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199706230434.VAA21830@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "A.R. Duell" writes: > I've never liked bit-banged serial ports either (except on > microcontrollers). They always seem to have problems with full-duplex > operation. Yes, Apple sold a bit-banged serial port for a time - I have > one with the manual (which, amazingly contains instructions on linking it > to an ASR33), presumably to save a UART chip. They then sold one that > worked properly (in full-duplex mode, etc) under the name 'super serial > card'. It used (IIRC) a 6850 chip (or was it a 6551?) Hmm? What was that bit-banged serial port? If you look in the Apple ][ red book, there is a little circuit in there that plugs into the game I/O connector and drives a 20mA current loop. Alongside there is a short assembly program to drive it. Now there is a bit-banger. There was an unspectacular serial card for the ][. I don't recall it being a bit banger, just that the combination of it and the printer I was using at the time (an IDS BrighterWriter) wasn't smart enough to manage any sort of common flow control, so that I had to run it at 300 baud. I thought it had some sort of UART-like thing, but maybe my brain is going again. Hmm, I think it was called the Asynchronous Serial Interface or something like that. There was also a Synchronous Serial Interface that (I recently found out) was the Silentype printer interface. I don't remember the Mountain Hardware CPS card that well, and I feel very good about that based on what I do remember. Now there was a klu[d]ge. The Apple Super Serial Card was designed around a 6551. There were a couple of other cards designed around the 6850. The Hayes Micromodem ][ was one of these. ... Strange as it seems today (now that I have done some programming around PC-contemptible serial ports), the Apple ][ serial cards and software generally worked by software-polling-hardware. The only serial card I can remember supporting interrupts was the Super Serial Card, and I can't say that I ever saw it used that way. Certainly none of the "standard" software required it; interrupts just weren't generally done on Apple ][s. -Frank McConnell From maynard at jmg.com Sun Jun 22 23:57:29 1997 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970622183614.00dbe654@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: OK, I just got my first decent item since I stopped collecting several years ago. This is an original apple II, serial number 7833. It came with what appears to be the Microsoft basic language card. The card contains six 24 pin sockets, five filled by PROMs (C48040; each with an APPLE 1978 sticker), a red switch on the back, and another sticker on the board's surface reading: 851. Just below that sticker printed on the card it says ROM CARD 600. There's also a disk II interface card, circa '78, but the drive itself was unavailable. Could someone verify if that card *is* the Integer BASIC replacement, or Microsoft BASIC? The motherboard is functional, video works just fine, it seems filled out with 48K of that old Military grade metal topped RAM; obviously the PSU is good. The keyboard is a mess, hoewver. It's been sitting in a basement for years, so many keys have gummed up; some seem to have been in a perpetual depressed state waiting out obsolesence like Atlas. The machine itself is filthy. The plastic case has just burned in grime from years of use and then even more years of basement ambiance. I'm guessing that some folks here may know a bit more about system restoration. Mind if I ask a few questions? How do I go about cleaning this without destroying the case? Does anyone know of some good solvents or cleaners for plastic? Can I pull a keytop off the keyboard without destroying the key? If it's really bad I guess I could change keyboards - but I'd really like to attempt to get this guy working, as it was the original. And then there's stuff: I lack a floppy disk drive. Hmmm... how rare is hard disk technology that will work with this apple? Hahaha, here's a good one: does anyone know if ever there's been manufactured 10base-T cards, or am I just dreaming here? If so, guess I'll be looking for a SuperSerial card as well. And basic 'dumb' (no time to RTFM quite yet!!) questions: How do I get out of the ROM monitor into BASIC? I guess I need some basic DOCS here as well as a good technical reference, huh?. I figure most of the 'stuff' can be had on comp.sys.apple2.marketplace and the M.I.T. flea fest approaching on July 20. If anyone wishes, however, please feel free to offer items for sale. I want to get this computer clean and *functional*, but I'm also not in a hury to do it tomorrow. ;-) Price: I got it FREE! 8-)) And the guy couldn't imagine why I'd want it!!! J. Maynard Gelinas From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 23 02:04:34 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) References: Message-ID: <33AE2002.34F5@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Olminkhof wrote: > > > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Olminkhof wrote: > > > > keyboard 4k version, a CBM 3032 and a CBM 8032 hulk. I suspect they > > will > > > > always be around because they are so hard to destroy. The case is very > > > > solid. I found the "hulk" in a paddock, like some people find ancient > > cars! > > > > I've never attempted to power this one up though. > > > > > > I take "paddock" is Strine for "junkyard", and open to the elements? > > > > "paddock" is an english word for a place where animals graze. > > Who said classiccmp isn't open to other cultures? That's a cultural > exchange if I ever saw one. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass This is STILL an American computer. You seem not to be interested in others like the Sopectrum, the BBC, Oric Atmos, Camputers Linx, Oric 1, Jupiter Ace etc. enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 23 02:07:04 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Cocos References: <01BC7EDA.AE0BA3E0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> <33b15579.755586@smtp.ix.netcom.com> <33ADA3CE.50CD@ndirect.co.uk> <33b4ac8a.3048632@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33AE2098.2D37@ndirect.co.uk> Benedict Chong wrote: > > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 22:14:38 +0000, you wrote: > > %I have got plenty of Dragons 32 or 64 for sale/trade/swap if you want > > %them. I need an IBM Junior and an Apple II. > > We're on different sides of the Atlantic. Actually, I'm on the east > side of the Pacific, so it'd be difficult to actually exchange > anything. Why? There is such a thing (invented in England) collect MAIL. > > Looking at the list of articles, there's an answer I owe you regarding > the old microprocessors. Go and buy an issue of Elektor from the > nearest WHSmith and see if you can order some back issues from the > early 1990s. Look for two page ads with lots of component listings. > One of the companies is the one that used to advertise older > microprocessors. I haven't bought an issue of Elektor for many years > now, so don't know if the company is still around. Good suggestion, I will ask some of my friends to see if they have any at home. Thanks. enrico > > Ben -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 23 02:09:34 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Cocos References: Message-ID: <33AE212E.7929@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > > IIRC, there was some debate in the _really_ early rainbow magazines. > > (Or maybe it was in the 80 Micros. I have those, I'll have to check > > later.) They were trying to decide a nickname for the Colour > > Computer. I don't remember off hand what some of the other candidates > > were, but there were some people who thought CoCo was too 'cute' or > > non-business like or some such. > > I've always held the nickname as being rather obnoxious. Calling it the > "COC" would have been more masculine and macho! > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Ah! Yes, but very few men would have bought it... enrico From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 23 02:13:41 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Current wanted list References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F9DF61@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <33ADE893.3946@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <33AE2225.7B06@ndirect.co.uk> Jeff Hellige wrote: > > I've seen numerous people mention finding Apple ///'s that they found > or saw, and was wondering if someone would be willing to make a deal on > one or pick one up? That or I'd like to find just about any make micro > from the mid to late 70's since that is one era that my collection > totally lacks examples of. Thanks. > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > (corrected URL) There are plenty around here but then ........the dreaded shipping problem of yours......... enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 23 02:24:40 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... References: Message-ID: <33AE24B8.2D70@ndirect.co.uk> Why doesn't anybody lokk at the APPLE II from the social point of view? Tgis computer, with its VISICALC, change the way offices and home businesses, worked. It has also changed the life of million of persones. It has definetely change mine. If you want to just look at its technology (which is not everyting in a machine) you should place it in the right time slot. Whet it came out there was never comparable and it remained so for a LONG time. You can STILL use it today! I mean really use it, not just power up like you do with TRS-80s and Pets. Long live the Apple II enrico From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 23 02:37:08 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... References: <33AD808B.1972@goldrush.com> <3.0.1.32.19970622192610.00dbeb70@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <33AE27A4.502@ndirect.co.uk> Jim Willing wrote: > *If* it is worthwhile to me, and I believe that I can get the item to/from > a point intact, fine. I'll probably do it. If not, thanks for the > interest and have a nice day. If you don't like it and want to start a > flame war, go right ahead but you will do it *without* me! (for the most > part) > > (trying to calm down now...) I am sorry, I did not want to answer anymore about this, BUT I must point out that, obviously, I did not make myself clear enough. I never said the things contained in your message (which I cut down to just one phrase). The whole point was NOT about shipping but about your cultural approach to collecting...but let's get down to business now (collecting that is). I am calm but disappointed... enrico From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 09:08:59 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 22, 97 5:04 pm Message-ID: <199706230808.7118@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> [Disk II] > Blasphemer! No really though, if you must call the Disk ][ controller a :-) > kludge, at least qualify it by calling it a beautiful kludge, which it is. Well, I'll agree it's a minimalist design. Beauty, however, is in the eye of the beholder. > Tony, any information you can e-mail me or send me concerning the > Sorcerer would be appreciated. I need information about the power > requirements, plus just general information such as how much RAM it came > with, processor type, built-in languages, etc. Thanks. I thought the Sorceror had an internal mains PSU and you just plugged it in. I will check before you apply 110V (or 240V) to the 5V line, though. The processor was a Z80. The only built-in 'language' was a machine code monitor. Basic and other software - I have a text editor/word processor somewhere - were in ROM cartridges that plugged into the side of the machine. These cartridges were, in fact 8-track tape cases with a little PCB inside them. > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 09:13:16 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 22, 97 5:34 pm Message-ID: <199706230813.7137@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > This is true, but if you want to do strange things with PC (or any other) > > hardware then design the card you need. It's not that hard, and it won't > > affect the machine's performance in other areas. > > But its much faster and easier to do it with software. One of the Maybe for you. I find it a lot easier to solder up a card (which has a good chance of working first or second time...) than to write and debug software. In all my recent projects the hardware (quite complex hardware - 10's of chips) has taken a lot less time than the (minimal) software. > things that made the Apple so nice was that it was an excellent > prototyping machine. You had all sorts of inputs and outputs with which > to play with. You didn't need to spend time designing an interface card, > the Apple was experimenter ready! Just add software. The standard I/O (on the games port) consisted of (IIRC) a few resitor-reading ADCs, a few single-bit inputs and a few outputs. Not a lot IMHO. The BBC micro had 8 I/O lines, another 8 outputs if you didn't use the printer port, handshake lines for all those, 4 ADC channels (10 bit, I think) _and_ a system bus with a couple of decoded chip select signals on it. That's what I call an experimenter's machine. And is it that hard to design an address decoder? It's one chip these days, probably 2 or 3 at the time the Apple 2 was 'current' > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 09:28:43 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 22, 97 5:27 pm Message-ID: <199706230828.7246@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > Yes, but it some cases the 'kludges' led to problems later on - 'trivial' > > problems like a total incompatability between the Disk II and just about > > any other machine in the world, 'mariginal behaviour' like a case that > > overheated, a PSU that was beyond the design limit when running a system > > board, language card and 1 drive, things like that that caused some > > machines to crash after about 1 hour, that _crazy_ slot addressing scheme > > and the saving on chips/PSU consumption by switching the power line to > > the I/O card ROM - I may be old-fashioned, but I don't like driving input > > pins past the supply rails..., etc > > > > Saving components is only 'good' when it doesn't affect performance. I am > > not convinced that this is the case with the Apple ][ > > OK, now you're just outright wrong. I've never had any of the problems > you mentioned above with any of my apples. The only problems I ever had OK, it appears that I had a very marginal machine. It happens. On the other hand (and I _know_ others will disagree here) I _never_ had any crashes from my TRS-80 Model 1. It was 100% stable. > was when I pulled the disk controller card from my ][+ when it was still > powered on (I was young and lame). As far as the system over-heating, > nope. Never happened. PSU beyond the design limit when running a system > board? What on earth are you talking about? Crashed after an hour? When I was having serious Apple ][ problems I measured the supply current drawn by my Apple ][ motherboard, language card and one disk. IIRC it was slightly _more_ than the rating for the PSU given in the Techref. > Mine never, ever spontaneously crashed, and I've owned several. Crazy > slot addressing scheme? I think it wored rather well. And the language > card was for the ][+ to have backward compatibility with the ][. That's > bad design? Actually, that's called "customer friendly". I never said the language card was a bad design. It was a useful piece of hardware. > > Of course, you're entitled to your opinion Tony, but I think it's driven > mostly by ignorance (I don't mean that in a bad way) or just plain bad luck. I was trying to use an Apple ][ seriously in about 1983. I had no luck at all with it. I read the TechRef, and the view I got _time and again_ was that this 'feature' existed to save a cheap TTL chip. Now, IMHO that's _not_ a good design. I can name a number of things (not Apple, not even just classic computers) that I've had to redesign because the manufacturers wanted to save a few bucks worth of components. I'd have much rather payed extra in the first place, but alas the design was driven by price. > > > Oh, please don't think I am picking on Apple. The PERQ (my favourite > > machine) has a number of _very_ marginal timings. The various CPU board > > clocks are delayed with respect to each other by a string of TTL inverters > > and buffers. Some memory cards will only work in landscape mode - the > > timing is 'on the edge', so that the portrait mode doesn't work. And for > > those that do work in portrait mode as well you often have to change a > > coupld of chips to slower versions (say a 74S157 -> 74LS157) to get it to > > work correctly. > > If what you described above is correct, then did it work? If so, it Yes, it worked. It still works 100% AFAIK > wasn't such a bad design after all, was it? If not, then yeah, the design A bad design can still work. It is just more likely to fail under strange circumstances, it's dependant on component values, etc. Apart from my bad luck on the PSU, the Apple ][ works. It still works. In that sense it was not a bad design. But if you accept that things that don't work are not simply bad designs - they're useless - then you have to find some other way to judge 'goodness'. > sucked. What you describe here, in contrast to the Apple design, is in > fact poor design. The Apple ][, as designed the way it was, worked fine. The PERQ worked as designed (or at least my 3 all do) Remember that in many areas the PERQ was pushing a 1970's design to the limits. There's a 100MHz clock on the Landscape memory board (at a time when most other manufacturers thought 20MHz was fast). There's signals on the CPU board that are skewed by 4ns - a delay that could easily have been lost by bad layout or spread of chip timings. They were trying to design a fast personal workstation, and managed to do it. The Apple ][ was not particularly fast (in the signal timings) for the time, and IMHO there's no excuse for some of the tricks that were pulled. > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 09:37:30 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:03 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <199706230434.VAA21830@daemonweed.reanimators.org>; from "Frank McConnell" at Jun 22, 97 9:34 pm Message-ID: <199706230837.7288@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> [Apple ]['s again] > Hmm? What was that bit-banged serial port? A little Apple card (Async Serial Interface or something) that contained a PROM (P8 or P8A), and a few TTL chips that formed a single-bit I/O port. There were RS232 and current loop buffers on the card. Probably about 10 chips total. I have one, and the manual which gives schematics and PROM source. > There was an unspectacular serial card for the ][. I don't recall it > being a bit banger, just that the combination of it and the printer I > was using at the time (an IDS BrighterWriter) wasn't smart enough to > manage any sort of common flow control, so that I had to run it at 300 The card I am thinking of supported no handshakes at all (well, it tied RTS to CTS and DTR to DSR and CD). XON/XOFF was sort-of supported if you went slowly enough. And for some inexplicable reason the card was wired as a _modem_ (out on 3, in on 2), not a terminal. > baud. I thought it had some sort of UART-like thing, but maybe my > brain is going again. > > Hmm, I think it was called the Asynchronous Serial Interface or That may be the same card. I tried to use one for a period to talk to a laboratory instrument. It nearly drove me mad. > something like that. There was also a Synchronous Serial Interface > that (I recently found out) was the Silentype printer interface. The Silentype card was a custom interface AFAIK. There was a synchronous serial part to that card, but it was nothing like any other synchronous interface. > -Frank McConnell -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 09:52:06 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <33AE24B8.2D70@ndirect.co.uk>; from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 23, 97 7:24 am Message-ID: <199706230852.7392@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> [Apple ][] > there was never comparable and it remained so for a LONG time. You can > STILL use it today! I mean really use it, not just power up like you do > with TRS-80s and Pets. You can still use PETs for serious work - I fired one up the other day to test an IEEE-488 interfaced instrument. The PET with its built-in Basic was the quickest way to do that (rather than to say write some Pascal on the PERQ, sort out the lack of secondary addressing in the system-supplied routines, and get it all to run). To try to defuse this Apple ][ flamefest.... I was worn out last night. I'd spent most of the weekend fixing a laserprinter (an Apple, as it happens, but the problem was in the Canon-designed engine - the Apple bits worked fine). So I probably said a few things a bit more strongly than I should have done. The Apple 2 is : An historically significant machine. No question about it. As was said in the bit that I deleted, Visicalc was the first (popular?) spreadsheet. That alone makes it an important machine An 'interesting' (even if I don't like it, I'll agree it's interesting) design. Some of Woz's designs are, well, not what I would do, but I can understand the motivation behind them. This doesn't mean I have to like them. Still useful 20 years after it was first produced. Mind you, that applies to 99% of all classic computers :-) A machine that belongs on this list. Don't think I am flaming anyone here for talking about it. And lots more besides. One thing that is possibly relevant is that I don't have _any_ modern computers. No Pentiums - my latest PC is a much-hacked PC/AT with the original type 2 motherboard. If I want to do some computing I use one of my older machines - the PC, the PERQ, the CoCo, the PDP8, the PDP11, etc. So I like machines that are 100% reliable (and my Apples never have been - maybe I should sort out what the heck is going on), and that have hardware I can get amongst, modify, etc. > > Long live the Apple II Agreed... I may not use my Apples for serious work any more, but I have no intention of getting rid of them > > enrico > > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jun 23 11:23:18 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: <9705238670.AA867090681@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Last week - while I was on holiday on the Noprfolk Broads - someone (I forget who) asked if there had ever been a microcomputer that used EBCDIC. I have an IBM System/23 (aka Datamaster) at home. It has system board, mono monitor, twin 8-inch floppies and PC-style keyboard in one box, and a printer hung off the back. It has an 8085 processor, 64k RAM and 112K ROM. The expansion slots are suspiciously IBM PC like... This box programs in BASIC (the 112k of ROM contains almost a complete mainframe basic with matrix ops, etc.) and uses EBCDIC as its character set. It has interesting features such as a file system with 8.8 character filenames (as opposed to the CPM and later 8.3 that everyone seems to use nowadays :-( ). If the printer is switched off or disconnected, it fails power on diagnostics! As I recall, I was given it by a friend at college in ?1988. He informed me that his stepfather paid L11000 (i.e. UK pounds) for it in ?1980. I once tried to get the BASIC manual out of IBM technical publications. It was out of print, so they persuaded me to shell out L30 (about $40 or $50?) for the mainframe BASIC manual. Not a good buy!!! Anyone else out there have one of these? Know any more about it? Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Das Feuer brennt, das Feuer nennt die Luft sein Schwesterelement - und frisst sie doch (samt dem Ozon)! Das ist die Liebe, lieber Sohn. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 01:42:32 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <9705238670.AA867090681@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <199706231042.GAA09736@mail.cgocable.net> Philip, Nip! > > I have an IBM System/23 (aka Datamaster) at home. It has system board, > mono monitor, twin 8-inch floppies and PC-style keyboard in one box, and > a printer hung off the back. It has an 8085 processor, 64k RAM and 112K > ROM. The expansion slots are suspiciously IBM PC like... Believe it or not, you're right in your suspicions they redesigned using this same ideas and parts that is used in this system/23 that begat first PC. Lot of signals for that slots is very close but they changed few lines and used 8088 which is cheaper to use with existing 8bit chips. From timolmst at cyberramp.net Mon Jun 23 07:56:35 1997 From: timolmst at cyberramp.net (Tim Olmstead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: Hams who collect Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970623075603.26bf10de@mailhost.cyberramp.net> At 01:25 PM 6/22/97 -0700, you wrote: >I see a number of references to people who get things at hamfests, >swapfests, and other amateur radio type events. As such, I was just >curious who out there has their amateur radio license. I have one and >my call is KE6HTS. > I'm WB5PFJ, but VERY inactive. Tim Olmstead timolmst@cyberramp.net From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 23 08:23:53 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! Message-ID: <199706231322.IAA05270@challenge.sunflower.com> I use alcohol, windex, fingernail paint remover and other noxious things to clean apple][ cases, just avoid getting the nastiest of these solvents on things like the little lite that says power, or the apple ][ logos on monitors or the name badge at the top of the machine. I've also heard that some people will dissasemble the computer leaving the empty shell, take out EVERYTHING, and run the plastic case through the dishwasher, not using the Heated drying cycle of course. As for key repair, they are little plastic wedges that are shoved against two vertically mounted contacts, counter forced by a small spring. You can not remove the keys without damage. To repair a keyboard you have two options, One, Replace the entire keyboard, or aquire a ][ for parts and remove the keyboard from the unit, the contacts are soldered into the keyboard cirucuit board. You can then replace the switch. The Key caps can be removed. but you can't get to the switch of course without destroying it, or desoldering it as a unit. I have manually recontructed them before, but they never seem to work quite right once forced open, but the do function enough to use as long as it's not an alpha charcter, or god forbid the enter key. ---------- > From: J. Maynard Gelinas > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: apple II - SCORE! > Date: Sunday, June 22, 1997 11:57 PM > > > OK, I just got my first decent item since I stopped collecting > several years ago. This is an original apple II, serial number 7833. It > came with what appears to be the Microsoft basic language card. The card > contains six 24 pin sockets, five filled by PROMs (C48040; each with an > APPLE 1978 sticker), a red switch on the back, and another sticker on the > board's surface reading: 851. Just below that sticker printed on the card > it says ROM CARD 600. There's also a disk II interface card, circa '78, > but the drive itself was unavailable. Could someone verify if that card > *is* the Integer BASIC replacement, or Microsoft BASIC? > > The motherboard is functional, video works just fine, it seems > filled out with 48K of that old Military grade metal topped RAM; obviously > the PSU is good. The keyboard is a mess, hoewver. It's been sitting in a > basement for years, so many keys have gummed up; some seem to have been > in a perpetual depressed state waiting out obsolesence like Atlas. The > machine itself is filthy. The plastic case has just burned in grime from > years of use and then even more years of basement ambiance. > > I'm guessing that some folks here may know a bit more about > system restoration. Mind if I ask a few questions? > > How do I go about cleaning this without destroying the case? Does > anyone know of some good solvents or cleaners for plastic? > > Can I pull a keytop off the keyboard without destroying the key? > If it's really bad I guess I could change keyboards - but I'd really like > to attempt to get this guy working, as it was the original. > > > And then there's stuff: I lack a floppy disk drive. Hmmm... how > rare is hard disk technology that will work with this apple? Hahaha, > here's a good one: does anyone know if ever there's been manufactured > 10base-T cards, or am I just dreaming here? If so, guess I'll be looking > for a SuperSerial card as well. > > And basic 'dumb' (no time to RTFM quite yet!!) questions: How do > I get out of the ROM monitor into BASIC? I guess I need some basic DOCS > here as well as a good technical reference, huh?. I figure most of the > 'stuff' can be had on comp.sys.apple2.marketplace and the M.I.T. flea > fest approaching on July 20. If anyone wishes, however, please feel free > to offer items for sale. I want to get this computer clean and > *functional*, but I'm also not in a hury to do it tomorrow. ;-) > > Price: I got it FREE! 8-)) > > And the guy couldn't imagine why I'd want it!!! > > J. Maynard Gelinas From rector at christcom.net Mon Jun 23 09:52:20 1997 From: rector at christcom.net (Dan Rector) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts Message-ID: <33AE8DA4.3A06@christcom.net> I was looking through a book I had picked up a year or so ago called "The Elementary Commodore 64". Towards the front amongst the description of various types of peripherals available for the C64 under the title "Other Gadgets" was this: Z-80 CP/M -- This cartridge goes right into the cartridge slot to turn your machine into a Z-80 base computer enabling you to access the vast array of CP/M software. With over 2000 CP/M software programs available, there is little you will not be able to access. Dan Rector From rector at christcom.net Mon Jun 23 10:20:02 1997 From: rector at christcom.net (Dan Rector) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <33AE9422.57E4@christcom.net> Hello, I guess it's about time that I introduce myself. I've been lurking here for a month or better. I guess I really have not responded before because I didn't really have much to add especially to the discussions of late 70's stuff and the discussions of minis. My main interests (although I enjoy reading all of this) is the older systems based on the IBM-PC (XT & AT class) machines and PS/2s which I know is a bit more current than many of you like. I also have a Commodore 64 and Plus/4 and periphs, I guess I can qualify based on that. I really didn't start out to be a collector, but kind of fell into it. The Plus/4 was the first computer my family ever had, so I've now taken over the care and nurturing of it. I picked up my C64 a couple of years ago from my former minister who had is sitting in his closet. He had two 1541s, a MPS-803 printer, vicmodem, fast load cartrigde, joystick, and monitor, plus a ton of software. He wanted $30 for the lot after I enquired. I was in hog heaven but why wife rolled up her eyes and said "What are you going to do with THAT!" The XTs and PS/2s were give aways. I've really been having fun with the PS/2 Mod 60 (a 286 w/ one 1M and 40M HD). I have been watching AuctionWeb and have added pieces to bring it up to a '486 with 8 meg with SCSI periphs. One of the more interesting 'gives' I have since obtained is the Amstrad PC1512 - It's an XT class machine with built in joystick port in the keyboard (uses same joystick as C64), built it mouse port, serial and parrallel built in with the expansion slots going left to right rather than front to back. The power supply for the whole thing is in the monitor. The case has a 'cutout' for the the stand of the monitor to fit into. It also uses 4 AA bateries for the clock which are easily accessible (move the monitor). It is really a neat design. I live in Rochester, MN - so I'm not close to either coast (but Canada isn't that far away) Dan From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Mon Jun 23 09:09:16 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 22 Jun 1997 09:18:47 PDT." Message-ID: <199706231409.JAA17448@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> >A "ton" of NEC-2716 and Hitachi 2716 EPROMs > >He also has the line on hundreds of Panasonic RL-H18 palmtops. This is a >palmtop which came out around 1985 and had FORTH in ROM. It also has a >20-col (or 40-col?) thermal printer and a case which bundles the two >together. His company also developed an expansion "tray" which houses I'd definitly be interested in some 2716s and one (or maybe a few of the RL-H18s). Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Jun 23 09:35:33 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: Jr. Dragons? In-Reply-To: <33ADA3CE.50CD@ndirect.co.uk> References: <01BC7EDA.AE0BA3E0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> <33b15579.755586@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970623103533.00936890@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, e.tedeschi said: [snip] >I have got plenty of Dragons 32 or 64 for sale/trade/swap if you want >them. I need an IBM Junior and an Apple II. First, I have a question: Was there much difference between the Dragon 32 and the Dragon 64, or is that just a designation of how much memory it had? Also, I have 1 1/2 IBM-PC Jr.'s sitting in my basement collecting dust. They used to be complete, non-working machines (one with a "sidecar" I believe it's called) whereas I did get one "almost working" with spares for the second. The almost working comes in as I didn't have a monitor for them, and altho they did have the RF Modulator to use a TV with, I could never get a clear picture thru that port. I could tell that the machine booted and worked, and I could see changes on the screen so the keystrokes were being recognized, and simple DOS commands did seem to have output, but it was nowhere readable. As such, right now I have 1 complete Jr with floppy drive, sidecar, and 128K mem expansion (I believe... hafta look at the chips & calculate the storage) with an extra internal floppy drive, an extra motherboard, an extra keyboard (neither are chicklet, and one has a few stuck keys) I think there was a Lotus 123 cartridge with it (but I heard rumors that it needed a disk as well?) and a basic cartridge. There may be more stuff, but I haven't looked at it since the move... Are you interested in it? HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From scott at saskatoon.com Mon Jun 23 09:54:51 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) In-Reply-To: <33AE2002.34F5@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: > This is STILL an American computer. You seem not to be interested in > others like the Sopectrum, the BBC, Oric Atmos, Camputers Linx, Oric 1, > Jupiter Ace etc. I've been looking for a Jupiter Ace for over 10 years! Do you have any leads on them? (I didn't realize that they were not American computers, as I learned about them in Creative Computing like all the rest.) > enrico ttfn srw From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon Jun 23 09:58:09 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: PET In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970622213557.006859c0@post.keme.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, steve wrote: > Ok can you help ? a few months ago I found a Commodore P500 seriel NO. WG00837 > What the heck is it???? > At first I thought it was one of those old Commodore PC's they used to make but that was a PC-10 I think. Well, checking my rather old copy of the commodore FAQ, it says under "dunno Series" : P500 6509, 6567, 6591 Well, there you go... dunno Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Jun 23 10:00:42 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) In-Reply-To: <33AE2002.34F5@ndirect.co.uk> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970623110042.009803b0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, e.tedeschi said: >Sam Ismail wrote: >> On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Olminkhof wrote: >> > > I take "paddock" is Strine for "junkyard", and open to the elements? As long as we're inquiring about other cultures & whatnot, what language is "Strine" referencing (I'm assuming the Queen's English, but I could be wrong) and why is it called such? >> > "paddock" is an english word for a place where animals graze. Hey, here's a question: In the UK, a "boot" is what we stoopid Americans call "the trunk" i.e. the rear storage compartment of a four-wheeled family-type vehicle. So if you all boot a computer, does that mean you're turning it on, or putting it in your automobile???? ;^> ;^> >> Who said classiccmp isn't open to other cultures? That's a cultural >> exchange if I ever saw one. >> Sam >This is STILL an American computer. You seem not to be interested in >others like the Sopectrum, the BBC, Oric Atmos, Camputers Linx, Oric 1, >Jupiter Ace etc. Enrico, that's just not fair. That's like saying "It hasn't rained for 2 days, therefore it never rains here." There have been several discussions on machines from countries other than the US (you yourself brought up the Dragon... That's not an American machine!), Alexios owns an Oric IIRC (and many machines in his virtual museum are not of US origin), and many other machines do get some airtime around here... it's just been a small dry spell lately. What about machines that did originate in the U.S. but gained a much larger following overseas? The Atari ST line didn't make a big hit in the US, but it was *very* popular in Germany in particular and Europe in general. (and yes, I'm getting mine ___This Weekend___!!! Wheeeee! ;-) Should they be classified as "US" or "European", and does it even matter? I say "Pop a homebrew (my homebrew follows Reinheitsgebot -- and that's a classic from 1518! ;-), spark up a CoCo, and let's have some fun!" As my dad says: Thanks 'till you're better paid!!! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 23 09:57:04 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts Message-ID: <199706231457.AA07878@world.std.com> > Z-80 CP/M -- This cartridge goes right into the cartridge slot to turn > your machine into a Z-80 base computer enabling you to access the vast > array of CP/M software. With over 2000 CP/M software programs > available, there is little you will not be able to access. That's 20,000 and for those with a PC Walnut Creek produces a CP/M cdrom that has most all of them. They also have titles online WWW.cdrom.com Allison From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Mon Jun 23 10:17:52 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: Jr. Dragons? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970623111629.0069c7c0@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> It's been years since I fiddled with a PCjr. It has a self test, to activate press Control-Alternate-Insert. Can't remember the specifics of the self test though. I don't know if Lotus for the jr required a disk, but I have been told it came on two separate cartridges. At 02:35 PM 6/23/97 +0000, you wrote: >As such, right now I have 1 complete Jr with floppy drive, sidecar, and >128K mem expansion (I believe... hafta look at the chips & calculate the >storage) with an extra internal floppy drive, an extra motherboard, an >extra keyboard (neither are chicklet, and one has a few stuck keys) I think >there was a Lotus 123 cartridge with it (but I heard rumors that it needed >a disk as well?) and a basic cartridge. There may be more stuff, but I >haven't looked at it since the move... > >Are you interested in it? > >HTH, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From ghjorth at sn.no Sat Jun 21 11:04:14 1997 From: ghjorth at sn.no (Thomas Christopher Jarvis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 90 In-Reply-To: <199706210702.AAA01753@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <+t/qzQv6D0FS092yn@oslonett.no> Would someone please remove me from this list. Thank you. From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Mon Jun 23 11:06:41 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: Vector 3-5030 References: <33AAA583.4C08@xlisper.mv.com> <33AAF037.F01@rain.org> <33AAF6F1.3004@xlisper.mv.com> <33AAFEB5.3C3D@rain.org> <33AC5362.301D@rain.org> Message-ID: <33AE9F11.29E3@xlisper.mv.com> Marvin wrote: > > David Betz wrote: > > > > Does anyone know anything about the Vector 3-5030 from Vector Graphics? > > Is it considered a collectable? I recently found one at the town dump > > and brought it home. It displays some sort of ROM monitor screen when > > I just had a phone call from an acquaintance who used to work for Vector > Graphic. If you have any questions, I can forward them to him. I > always find it nice to be able to talk with people that actually worked > for the companies who built these classics! Thanks for your offer to help. I'm finding that getting ancient CP/M machines running is more work than I had expected. I think I'll stick with the old Epson PX-8 that I've got in the closet if I get interested in playing with CP/M again. If you know anyone who might be interested in the Vector 3 I'd be happy to give it to them. Unfortunately, it probably isn't worth what it would cost to ship it from NH. David -- David Betz DavidBetz@aol.com dbetz@xlisper.mv.com (603) 472-2389 From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 23 11:13:59 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Message-ID: <199706231610.LAA14021@challenge.sunflower.com> Picked up one of these the other day, no power supply, anyone know what this monster needs for the 3 pin powersupply connection? {pinouts} From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 23 11:34:26 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33b2a49a.1036037@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:54:51 -0600 (CST), you wrote: %> This is STILL an American computer. You seem not to be interested in %> others like the Sopectrum, the BBC, Oric Atmos, Camputers Linx, Oric 1, %> Jupiter Ace etc. % %I've been looking for a Jupiter Ace for over 10 years! Do you have any %leads on them? (I didn't realize that they were not American computers, %as I learned about them in Creative Computing like all the rest.) I have a jupiter ace. It's sitting is a closet somewhere back in Singapore. Another sign of the folly of my youth : the machine is stripped out, the TV modulator is missing (modified the machine to run on a Zenith monochrome monitor), the rubber keyboard is somewhere else, there's a hole made on the plastic casing for a reset switch, and the last and worst modification I made on it was to wire up an external keyboard to it. Should have left it in one piece. Might have been more fun to look at. Ben From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 11:38:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) In-Reply-To: <33AE2002.34F5@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > This is STILL an American computer. You seem not to be interested in > others like the Sopectrum, the BBC, Oric Atmos, Camputers Linx, Oric 1, > Jupiter Ace etc. WHATEVER dude. Why don't you send me each of the computers you mentioned above, and to prove to you I am interested, I WILL KEEP THEM! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jun 23 11:54:13 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) Message-ID: <01IKEQR6ZVV6AFTTHX@cc.usu.edu> > %I've been looking for a Jupiter Ace for over 10 years! Do you have any > %leads on them? The schematics were printed in The Computer Journal last year sometime. IIRC, The Computer Journal's URL is http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/. > I have a jupiter ace. It's sitting is a closet somewhere back in > Singapore. > > Another sign of the folly of my youth : I have a Jupiter Ace hanging around, also. However, I just built it last year. Unfortunately, I had to give the rubber keyboard and most of the memory back to the fellow I borrowed them from; I haven't yet gotten around to building a keyboard from aluminized mylar, cardboard, and Tyvek (this should give me a working keyboard, but it will be of ZX80 quality). I've also found enough 2114s in an old MDA card to bring my Ace back to life... > the machine is stripped out, > the TV modulator is missing I don't have a modulator in mine. I gummed a 15-pin D connector to it so I could drive a spare DEC VR201 I had lying around (yes, the VR201 apparently does have enough range to do PAL; it worked great). Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 08:44:31 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231610.LAA14021@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <199706231744.NAA13546@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:13:59 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Bill Girnius" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: IBM PCjr > X-To: "Classic" > Picked up one of these the other day, no power supply, anyone know what > this monster needs for the 3 pin powersupply connection? {pinouts} > Center tapped ransformer is used. Both 17v ac at 2amp each on each outmost pins, center pin is the center tapped wire for transformer. Kind of kludge. But I worked out a pinout for that power slot to use regular efficient power supply via a custom adapter. Jason D. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jun 23 11:58:13 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706221951.4344@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: I have 2 sets of RX02s. I just thought that the way the top board had a hinge on it was neat. Never saw it as a work of art... Hmm... :) From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jun 23 12:20:16 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706230316.AA05134@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, there are plenty of true innovations today, but most are simply hype... Example: Anything from Microsoft. From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Mon Jun 23 12:13:45 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: Commodore Pet ?? C128??? Err P500 In-Reply-To: <199706231042.GAA09736@mail.cgocable.net> References: <9705238670.AA867090681@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970623181345.006e2284@post.keme.co.uk> Please help, I have a Commodore P500. What is it... Steve Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Mon Jun 23 12:34:34 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: FS on AuctionWeb: Apple, Atari, Commodore Message-ID: <33AEB3AA.3E28@oboe.calpoly.edu> I apologize for the intrusion but I just bought a lot of Apple service parts for older apples (IIe, IIc, IIGS) and listed some of the ones I don't need on the auction. They were supposedly in stock at a service facility when they cleaned out the old stuff. I'mm still intending on clearing out most of my stuff but I couldn't pass up a good deal. I did get some parts for my laserwriter, Mac plus, a couple new in box 400k drives. Too bad I had to buy 30 boxes to get the 5 things I wanted. ;-) There are also some systems listed. Here's what I have listed there as of today: Apple IIe Power Supply (new in box!) Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 06/29/97, 11:58:50 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=egt71446 IBM PS/2 MOD 50 Mother Board (in box) Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 06/29/97, 12:07:10 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=lbl753 Apple IIe Ext 80 Column/RGB Card (in box) Current bid: $1.00 Auction ends on: 06/29/97, 17:54:14 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=jaq4937 bjv77574: Apple IIGS Memory Expansion Card (in box) Current bid: $1.00 Auction ends on: 06/29/97, 17:58:41 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=bjv77574 oyf368: Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer I (photo) Current bid: $3.00 Auction ends on: 06/29/97, 19:33:30 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=oyf368 fwr8114: Radio Shack TRS-80 5 MB Ext. Hard Drive (pic) Bidding starts at: $3.00 Auction ends on: 06/29/97, 20:19:52 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=fwr8114 Pair Apple IIc, IIe Handcontrollers (photo) Current bid: $1.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 12:40:28 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=sfx4367 Commodore 128D System Current bid: $51.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 21:12:47 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=qrk459038 Commodore 64 - White Current bid: $10.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 21:16:04 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=wbj37502 Apple IIC System with External Floppy Current bid: $10.50 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 21:22:31 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=hxz389 Atari 520ST Computer, Floppy, Mouse, etc Current bid: $50.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 21:26:58 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=czo512 From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jun 23 09:27:48 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: info about... In-Reply-To: <199706222049.AA02583@world.std.com> Message-ID: <24B227715078@ifrsys.com> > > I have a PC05 card (LSI-11) it's a punch reader interface. This one is > different...it's a virgin bare board! Anyone that want's it let me know. > > Anyone know what a DEC 54-17101/2- ACTOR video daughter is used on? I have > two of these. > > Allison > > Y'know, I'll bet that's a left-over from a Heathkit H-11 (IIRC, the paper punch was one of the options you could get . . . . jeff From gram at cnct.com Mon Jun 23 11:25:39 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970623110042.009803b0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> > > I take "paddock" is Strine for "junkyard", and open to the elements? > > As long as we're inquiring about other cultures & whatnot, what language is > "Strine" referencing (I'm assuming the Queen's English, but I could be > wrong) and why is it called such? The term "Strine" is one I was introduced to years back by an Australian friend who used the term to refer to his nationality and his accent. It's a shortening of "Australian" and sounds best if pronounced with that accent. I was wondering whether there'd been definition drift over there, as there has been between here and England -- yes, I _know_ that "paddock" original means what I'd call a "corral". It's meaning as a place with a fence to keep animals in would easily lead itself to drift over to a place with a fence surrounding abandoned eguipment, what in the US I'd call a junkyard. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jun 23 10:47:20 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: Hams who collect In-Reply-To: <199706222033.4511@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <33AD8A32.12A7@rain.org>; from "Marvin" at Jun 22, 97 1:25 pm Message-ID: <24B182A406BB@ifrsys.com> > > > > I see a number of references to people who get things at hamfests, > > swapfests, and other amateur radio type events. As such, I was just > > curious who out there has their amateur radio license. I have one and > > my call is KE6HTS. > > G1XPF here. That's a 'Class B' license, roughly the equivalent of a > no-code tech in the States. > > But, at least in the UK, people without an amateur radio license are > welcome at radio rallies (hamfests), etc. Sometimes you'll be asked for a > callsign (particularly if you want the seller to hold something for you to > pick up later, or for identification if you're paying by cheque), but you > can always claim to be a short-wave listener (SWL). I did that for a > couple of rallies, got interested in the hobby, and got my license. > I'm KH6JJN. Been licensed for twenty years this year. I became enamoured with computers the following year . . . Jeff From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jun 23 09:49:22 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: References: <33AB6B7D.5283@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <24B2F4A36CCE@ifrsys.com> Brett wrote: > > I thought the 8008 was developed to go into a terminal. And then the > original *user* decided against using it so Intel started hawking it > as a micro-cpu. It must hav made it into SOMETHING that was not a > computer. Someone mentioned thr front panel of a DEC but it must > have been used in some terminals. Anybody know if and which? > > As I remember the 4004 was actually Intels first micro-cpu and I don't ^^^^ > know of any commercial product that used them - but I don't know > everything. Any product types and names? > > BC > > Yes! I do! I do! (Hand raised, flailing about) When I worked for John Fluke Mfg. in the early eighties, I used to repair their 6010 & 6012 audio frequency synthesizers. These used one 4004 processors for EVERYTHING; keyboard control, display generation (one led segment at a time), synthesizer latch loading, level control etc. It was one BUSY little chip. Jeff From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jun 23 12:11:38 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > The Color Computers were: > > > Color Computer 1: Silver/black, 4K-64K > > > Color Computer 2: White, 4K-64K > > I have a CoCo2 that's yellow, and I don't think it's from aging. > > The plastic they made the case for the Color Computer 2 started out white > in every example I've ever seen, but it definitely yellows with age and > exposure to light. Mine is slightly yellow. I have a CoCo II, with 64k and 2 disk drives (One has failed, though) and the BASIC book that came with it (Minus the cover). It made it through a house fire, I suspect that may have accellerated the yellowing. That was my first computer, it now lives under my PDP-11/23. I also have a TRS-80 Model 100, it is currently the terminal to the 11, and it needs a new keyboard (4 keys have quit working, I can't seem to get them working again). I still have the tape I saved all my basic programs on. I never did learn assembly for it. Somewhere I have the thin book with the system specs on it. I lost the cassette recorder somewhere, but I still have the cable, so I can read the tape. I fire it up when I get time, just to run it some. From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 23 13:04:17 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Message-ID: <199706231800.NAA26151@challenge.sunflower.com> Welp, that rules out rigging one, thats beyond my techincal ability to fabricate. Anyone have an Extra for sale or trade? ---------- > From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: IBM PCjr > Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 8:44 AM > > > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:13:59 -0500 > > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > From: "Bill Girnius" > > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > > Subject: IBM PCjr > > X-To: "Classic" > > > Picked up one of these the other day, no power supply, anyone know what > > this monster needs for the 3 pin powersupply connection? {pinouts} > > > Center tapped ransformer is used. Both 17v ac at 2amp each on each > outmost pins, center pin is the center tapped wire for transformer. > > Kind of kludge. But I worked out a pinout for that power slot to use > regular efficient power supply via a custom adapter. > > Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 09:09:19 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: Jr. Dragons? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970623103533.00936890@mail.northernway.net> References: <33ADA3CE.50CD@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <199706231809.OAA15946@mail.cgocable.net> > First, I have a question: Was there much difference between the Dragon 32 > and the Dragon 64, or is that just a designation of how much memory it had? > > Also, I have 1 1/2 IBM-PC Jr.'s sitting in my basement collecting dust. > They used to be complete, non-working machines (one with a "sidecar" I > believe it's called) whereas I did get one "almost working" with spares for > the second. > > The almost working comes in as I didn't have a monitor for them, and altho > they did have the RF Modulator to use a TV with, I could never get a clear > picture thru that port. I could tell that the machine booted and worked, > and I could see changes on the screen so the keystrokes were being > recognized, and simple DOS commands did seem to have output, but it was > nowhere readable. > > As such, right now I have 1 complete Jr with floppy drive, sidecar, and > 128K mem expansion (I believe... hafta look at the chips & calculate the > storage) with an extra internal floppy drive, an extra motherboard, an > extra keyboard (neither are chicklet, and one has a few stuck keys) I think > there was a Lotus 123 cartridge with it (but I heard rumors that it needed > a disk as well?) and a basic cartridge. There may be more stuff, but I > haven't looked at it since the move... I am looking for a 128k sidecar... if you are aware you can modify it to get 512k out of it by soldering work and adding one IC and jumpering. The commerical used parts reseller is asking far too much for what these old computer worth even in parts alone! > > Are you interested in it? > > HTH, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should > zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. > Thanks! Jason D. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 19:14:27 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: Jr. Dragons? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970623103533.00936890@mail.northernway.net>; from "Roger Merchberger" at Jun 23, 97 10:35 am Message-ID: <199706231814.10258@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, e.tedeschi said: > > [snip] > > >I have got plenty of Dragons 32 or 64 for sale/trade/swap if you want > >them. I need an IBM Junior and an Apple II. > > First, I have a question: Was there much difference between the Dragon 32 > and the Dragon 64, or is that just a designation of how much memory it had? There is a little more difference than the ammount of memory - I think the '64 had a built-in serial port (using either a 6850 or a 6551 - I forget which) which the '32 didn't have. As I'm sure most of the people on the list know, the Dragon is very similar to the Tandy CoCo - both were based on the same Motorola Application Note. The main difference is the printer port - in the basic design there were 3 I/O lines left over once the ones needed for the keyboard and video had been allocated. Tandy used them to make a bit-banged serial port (TxD, RxD, CD), while Dragon used them as the Strobe, Busy and Ack lines for a Centronics port. The data lines for said port were the same 8 lines that were used for keyboard scanning - since the printer would only listen when the strobe line was asserted, and the keyboard was entirely software controlled, there was no conflict here. > > Also, I have 1 1/2 IBM-PC Jr.'s sitting in my basement collecting dust. > They used to be complete, non-working machines (one with a "sidecar" I > believe it's called) whereas I did get one "almost working" with spares for > the second. I think I mentioned this before, but I bought a PC-jr for \pounds 10.00 (about $15) at a radio rally earlier this year - the basic machine with IR keyboard, printer 'sidecar', floppy drive and 64K RAM upgrade. I was pleasantly suprised when IBM could still supply the TechRef (about \pounds 50.00). I was even more pleasantly suprised when it arrived - it's a very complete manual - schematics for everything apart from the keyboard and floppy drive (but the latter is in the O&A Techref), BIOS source, keyboard protocol, etc. If you are serious about restoring these machines you should try to get it. > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 09:15:50 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: FS on AuctionWeb: Apple, Atari, Commodore In-Reply-To: <33AEB3AA.3E28@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <199706231815.OAA16632@mail.cgocable.net> Hello, > > IBM PS/2 MOD 50 Mother Board (in box) > Bidding starts at: $1.00 > Auction ends on: 06/29/97, 12:07:10 PDT > http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=lbl753 There is two types of that model 50 and 50z. 50z is much smaller motherboard than 50. 50z runs 0 wait state so it's my favorite. Thanks! Jason D. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 19:19:19 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231610.LAA14021@challenge.sunflower.com>; from "Bill Girnius" at Jun 23, 97 11:13 am Message-ID: <199706231819.10529@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Picked up one of these the other day, no power supply, anyone know what > this monster needs for the 3 pin powersupply connection? {pinouts} > > From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 09:28:29 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231800.NAA26151@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <199706231828.OAA17830@mail.cgocable.net> > Welp, that rules out rigging one, thats beyond my techincal ability to > fabricate. Anyone have an Extra for sale or trade? They're underrated but you can just get one to keep orginals but I could supply you a adapter for your own use with a PC power supply box. This way, you can simply plug in and go? I do not know where to get these black transformer bricks. The PCjr around here is rare as hen's teeth in my hometown. :) Considering that, I was lucky to find it in standard configuration of parallel port side car and the box but no cartidges! :( I also overheard that someone was trying to use TV with PCjr, you missed something really needed: demodulator box or find a computer compsite monitor which works better especially in 80 column mode. Commorde color monitors is good picks for this. Jason D. From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 23 13:39:33 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Message-ID: <199706231835.NAA29554@challenge.sunflower.com> A place in my location called surplus exchange, has about a dozen pcJR's on a skid. I didn't find any power supplies, but by the looks of the place, they could be anywhere. Let me know what to look for when I go back and I'll see if I can't rescue some more. (assuming the old lady lets me). I know the PC JR I bought, has a Parallell port on the outside, which I learned only today is a "Side-car". I have dozens of composite mono and color monitors from my apple// and Zenith collections. I also managed to scrounge out of this pile, [one] keyboard with cable, and [one] joystick and about 5 or 6 cartridges. The other PCjr,s seemed to be alone. Let me know what to look for on the CPU's and I can go through all of them one by one. If anyone else want's one, let me know and we can see what we can do. Last trip there I got a TI99/4a, atari 800, 1050 drive, 410 drive, Tandy COCO 1,. Commodore 1741 drive, Commodore mps 803 printer (I think) it works good. And an apple//+ for parts. I paid 35 for everything. I noticed this pallete of Jr's but I sure as heck didn't see any monitors, keyboards or power, except the one keyboard I did find elsewhere in the building. ---------- > From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: IBM PCjr > Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 9:28 AM > > > > Welp, that rules out rigging one, thats beyond my techincal ability to > > fabricate. Anyone have an Extra for sale or trade? > They're underrated but you can just get one to keep orginals but I > could supply you a adapter for your own use with a PC power supply > box. This way, you can simply plug in and go? > > I do not know where to get these black transformer bricks. The > PCjr around here is rare as hen's teeth in my hometown. :) > Considering that, I was lucky to find it in standard configuration of > parallel port side car and the box but no cartidges! :( > > I also overheard that someone was trying to use TV with PCjr, you > missed something really needed: demodulator box or find a computer > compsite monitor which works better especially in 80 column mode. > Commorde color monitors is good picks for this. > > Jason D. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 19:39:55 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231744.NAA13546@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 1:44 pm Message-ID: <199706231839.11400@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Center tapped ransformer is used. Both 17v ac at 2amp each on each > outmost pins, center pin is the center tapped wire for transformer. Are you _sure_ about this (as in 'Have you measured it'). My PC-jr was missing the power brick, and I must get round to making one. A glance at the PSU schematic convinced me it wasn't tapped to earth, but it could have been. If you know for sure, could you please confirm this so I don't blow up my PSU card. > Jason D. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From chemif at mbox.queen.it Mon Jun 23 13:43:23 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: C=1570 Drive (was Re:C64 CP/M carts) Message-ID: <199706231843.UAA12163@mbox.queen.it> At 21:44 20/06/97 +0100, we wrote: >> >>>Besides, I was talking about CP/M for the Commodore 1541 drive. That's a >>>multi-speed drive that uses GCR encoding, not MFM. Try writing THAT with >>>22DISK on your PC-clone. >>>I used to know that only C=1570 and C=1571 were capable to read and write >>CP/M disks in a proper way. (GCR+MFM) >>By the way anyone else apart me owning a C=1570 here? >> >>Ciao >> >>i own a 1570, its a american one with a step down transformer, Its >connected to my PC, and guess what, it writes CPM!!! >Steve >Emulator BBS >01284 760851 >Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE Hi Steve, Yours was the only one response I get (since now) from C=1570 owners Mine was made in Germany (did you buy it in the U.S.?) Ciao From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 09:51:18 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231819.10529@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199706231610.LAA14021@challenge.sunflower.com>; from "Bill Girnius" at Jun 23, 97 11:13 am Message-ID: <199706231851.OAA20006@mail.cgocable.net> Hello Tony, > > >From memory the central pin is chassis ground and the outside 2 are 18V AC > at about 3A. Actually 34vac 2amp center tapped transformer. The center tap goes to ground, what else how can negative voltages can be generated so it needs this ground. The both outside 2 pins for 17v ac lines goes there. The card rectify it to generate 3 dc voltages, two is positive and other one is negative. Bulk of the components is used to generate 5vdc, and a wimpy 12vdc source for the floppy drive and fan. And last one is in very small current negative current -12v dc which takes this voltage and go through a 7905 regulator to get -5v dc, both voltages are strictly for serial use and little use for else. Funny, instead of 60hz, you get the same type of circuit design in secondary side in lots of switching power supplies with few minor differences. The limits to overdrive if you do, both card and slot is due to the current limit allowance per contact on that slot. :( Leave it to be and parallel the seperate power sources to the sidecars if they have them. Another problem with this is that 3 connections is not enough to carry more than 2amp on each socket. By the way, I am Electomechanical major in training "on hold". :) > The manual doesn't give the schematics of the transformer unit (it does > for the PSU card in the main unit), and it's not clear from the > description whether the AC input is centre-tapped to ground or not. > Looking at the schematics, I think that it is _NOT_ Oh yes, I did saw the techref for the outside PSU transformer is pretty simple just a disconnectable center tapped transformer. One thing I hated that they did not give us the that schematics for that power card module which I revsere engineered instead! Jason D. From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 23 14:02:02 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? Message-ID: <199706231859.NAA01761@challenge.sunflower.com> What am I making here? Do we know yet? ---------- > From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: IBM PCjr > Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 9:51 AM > > Hello Tony, > > > > >From memory the central pin is chassis ground and the outside 2 are 18V AC > > at about 3A. > Actually 34vac 2amp center tapped transformer. The center tap goes > to ground, what else how can negative voltages can be generated so > it needs this ground. The both outside 2 pins for 17v ac lines goes > there. The card rectify it to generate 3 dc voltages, two is > positive and other one is negative. Bulk of the components is used > to generate 5vdc, and a wimpy 12vdc source for the floppy drive and > fan. And last one is in very small current negative current -12v dc > which takes this voltage and go through a 7905 regulator to get -5v > dc, both voltages are strictly for serial use and little use for > else. > > Funny, instead of 60hz, you get the same type of circuit design in > secondary side in lots of switching power supplies with few minor > differences. > > The limits to overdrive if you do, both card and slot is due to the > current limit allowance per contact on that slot. :( Leave it to be > and parallel the seperate power sources to the sidecars if they have > them. Another problem with this is that 3 connections is not enough > to carry more than 2amp on each socket. > > By the way, I am Electomechanical major in training "on hold". :) > > > The manual doesn't give the schematics of the transformer unit (it does > > for the PSU card in the main unit), and it's not clear from the > > description whether the AC input is centre-tapped to ground or not. > > Looking at the schematics, I think that it is _NOT_ > > Oh yes, I did saw the techref for the outside PSU transformer is > pretty simple just a disconnectable center tapped transformer. > One thing I hated that they did not give us the that schematics for > that power card module which I revsere engineered instead! > > Jason D. From manney at nwohio.com Mon Jun 23 11:38:56 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <199706231900.MAA27661@mx3.u.washington.edu> You aren't the only one who does old PC's...that's my business (I recondition old XT/AT's and sell them. Send strange questions to me. I also still sell an occasional Commodore piece! > My main interests (although I enjoy reading all of this) is the older > systems based on the IBM-PC (XT & AT class) machines and PS/2s which I > know is a bit more current than many of you like. I also have a > Commodore 64 and Plus/4 and periphs, I guess I can qualify based on > that. From manney at nwohio.com Mon Jun 23 11:54:25 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: H8 Computer Message-ID: <199706231900.MAA24212@mx2.u.washington.edu> > >What is a Heath H8 worth? I generally see H89's go for $25 US at hamfests. *I* wouldn't tie up $100 unless it was lovely and I really wanted one. Of course...it's worth what you want to pay for it, as Jim says From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 20:18:15 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231851.OAA20006@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 2:51 pm Message-ID: <199706231918.12579@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Hello Tony, > > > > >From memory the central pin is chassis ground and the outside 2 are 18V AC > > at about 3A. > Actually 34vac 2amp center tapped transformer. The center tap goes I was wrong. It's 17-0-17V, then. That's what I will use. > to ground, what else how can negative voltages can be generated so > it needs this ground. The both outside 2 pins for 17v ac lines goes Well, it could use a switching regulator. OK, I know it doesn't do so for the negative voltages - obviously I wasn't thinking straight earlier... > there. The card rectify it to generate 3 dc voltages, two is > positive and other one is negative. Bulk of the components is used > to generate 5vdc, and a wimpy 12vdc source for the floppy drive and The 5V regulator seems to be a switching one, which is what I'd have expected. > fan. And last one is in very small current negative current -12v dc > which takes this voltage and go through a 7905 regulator to get -5v > dc, both voltages are strictly for serial use and little use for > else. > > Funny, instead of 60hz, you get the same type of circuit design in > secondary side in lots of switching power supplies with few minor > differences. Yes, is that suprising? After all, a switching supply is nothing magical. You still need to transform the AC output into DC and regulate it. Of course you can always perform some regulation on an SMPS by varying the drive waveforms on the primary side. Talking of bad design (I was earlier...) I've seen some _crazy_ SMPS's in my time. In a Zenith monitor there's a supply that combines the reliability of a switcher with the efficiency of a linear. It rectifies the mains, feeds it to a free-running chopper (no regulation applied here), shoves that into a little transformer, rectifies the output and feeds it (about 18V DC) into a linear regulator that uses the power-on LED as the reference. It's the only monitor that _requires_ a green power-on LED. When my blew up (chopper failed, etc), I replaced the entire mess with a little torroidal transformer. It was cheaper than a new chopper transistor and a lot simpler. Then there are the Boschert 2-stage supplies that are used in Sanders printers and PERQ 1's (and probably elsewhere). A shorted chopper in one of those (which is a very common failure mode) will blow up 2 more expensive power transistors and then take out a number of small transistors, the chopper control IC (a good old 723), a few passives and a couple of PCB tracks. I had to sort out such a mess once - I can provide the full story if anyone's interested. > > The manual doesn't give the schematics of the transformer unit (it does > > for the PSU card in the main unit), and it's not clear from the > > description whether the AC input is centre-tapped to ground or not. > > Looking at the schematics, I think that it is _NOT_ > > Oh yes, I did saw the techref for the outside PSU transformer is Odd... That's not in my TechRef... > pretty simple just a disconnectable center tapped transformer. > One thing I hated that they did not give us the that schematics for > that power card module which I revsere engineered instead! But that is. The PSU card schematics (starting from the 3 pin connector) were included. > > Jason D. > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 11:17:16 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <02010783012841@michianatoday.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, tiborj wrote: > Hello there, I an fairly new here, but I am interested in all kinds of > hardware and software hacks. > Someone out there mentioned the 'sophistication' of the Apple ]['s video > addressing, saying that the > RAM refresh steals CPU cycles, Apples method is worse than a kludge, it was > simply a crufted idea. yes, the Disk II is an elegent kludge,as ALL of my > homebrewed electronic gear are kludges just to make them work!. My first > computer was a Commodore 64, and comparing it to apples(not oranges :0) the > 64 is WAY more advanced, and it too shares a medium populated motherboard. I > can do 90% of the multimedia stuff on the 64 as you can with a P-133! my > point being, the Apple and 64 both had 6502 compatible proccessors, but the > 6510 used by the 64 has smarter memory mangament, and it is fast enough to > refresh the ram AND do sprite graphics AND use bit mapped memory. adding Unfortunately your comparison is invalid since the C64 had a seperate chip for sound as well as graphics. The Apple used one 6502 to process everything. > perhiperals to the 64 via the serial bus worked NICE, and I can prove > history is repeating itself. Look at the new USB (Universal Serial Bus) If not slow as hell. The worst part about the commodore 1541 drive is that it had its own processor, and it was still slow. The bottleneck was the serial interface. Commodore was lame not to use something faster than, what was it, 19.2K? In contrast, the Apple Disk ][ could transfer data at about a rate of 16K per second. > standard, where they want to run evrything from keyboards, mice, modems > etc... the Wintel croud calls it BRAND NEW IDEA, but we did this 10 years or > more ago. I got a good taste of Apple's machines in school, and they were Yeah, it was called daisy-chaining. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 20:23:07 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? In-Reply-To: <199706231859.NAA01761@challenge.sunflower.com>; from "Bill Girnius" at Jun 23, 97 2:02 pm Message-ID: <199706231923.12867@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > What am I making here? Do we know yet? OK. I was mistaken. It appears that what's needed is a 34V centre-tapped transformer (we'd call it a 17-0-17V transformer in the UK). You link it up like this : Mains In PC-jr power input ---------)||(--------------------( 1 )||( )||(17V 110V )||(____________________( 2 )||( )||(17V )||( ---------)||(--------------------( 3 Mains In You could also use a transformer with 2 separate 17V windings (they're more common than tapped ones in the UK). You'd link that up like this : Mains In 17V PC-jr power input ---------)||(--------------------( 1 )||( )||(---+ 110V )|| 0V +----------------( 2 )|| 17V| )||(---+ )||( ---------)||(--------------------( 3 Mains 0V In Notice the secondary connections put the 2 windings in (additive) series. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 10:38:42 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231839.11400@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199706231744.NAA13546@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 1:44 pm Message-ID: <199706231938.PAA24628@mail.cgocable.net> Tony, > > Center tapped ransformer is used. Both 17v ac at 2amp each on each > > outmost pins, center pin is the center tapped wire for transformer. I vaguely remembered had to run up the power card with dc transformer so I could puzzle out last one or two voltages on it. Had to do several steps to find all the voltages. From rws at eagle.ais.net Mon Jun 23 14:48:19 1997 From: rws at eagle.ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: Hams who collect In-Reply-To: <33AD8A32.12A7@rain.org> from Marvin at "Jun 22, 97 01:25:22 pm" Message-ID: <199706231948.OAA04137@eagle.ais.net> KF9VP here, sorting through 200+ messages from the list. I must admit, I've found most of my computers at hamfests, but things have been getting rather rare (and sporadic) lately. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 20:50:20 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231938.PAA24628@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 3:38 pm Message-ID: <199706231950.13633@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Tony, > > > > Center tapped ransformer is used. Both 17v ac at 2amp each on each > > > outmost pins, center pin is the center tapped wire for transformer. > I vaguely remembered had to run up the power card with dc > transformer so I could puzzle out last one or two voltages on it. > Had to do several steps to find all the voltages. > From there, wired up a adapter which worked. Note, it is not 24vac > on each line! it is 12v on each wires if you buy center tapped > transformers you will see like that added up by outside two wires > measured. It goes like that marked on the transformer and the > transformer has three wires, of two wires same color and one is > different color, then it's a center tapped. I'm not sure I understand that at all. I assume you're saying that it's a 12-0-12 trasformer (or actually 17-0-17 - I am _sure_ 17V is mentioned somewhere in the IBM manual). Do you agree with the circuits I've just sent out? If not, could you please tell me where I've gone wrong? > Hello? Knock, knock...:) Anyway I did clearly remember that 17v ac Yes, I'm here... > on each wire (of two) and the center tap on one wire. > The power card rectify and regulates all the voltages for the Yep, I'll agree to that. > computer. That sort of thing I did build several power supplies > based on center tapped transformers, using center tap as common. > > Consider this: Take two aa battries and wire up in series, total > voltage is 3v assuming they're fresh. But put a wire as common > between two batteries and measure two wires in turn without swapping > those probes! This will give you one positive 1.5v and negative > 1.5v which that how center tapped transformer power supplies in this Yes, that sounds 100% reasonable. I may be from Cambridge, but I do understand _some_ electrical engineering :-) (Seriously, I had to explain jsut that to a 3rd year student in electrical engineering the other week..... There is something wrong with the world.) After all 'There is no such thing as ground' What you take as a 0V reference is entirely up to you. > configuration worked. But part of the circuity requires components > to rectify and smooth out the ripples caused by ac to dc > rectification process then final voltage regulation to complete the > inefficient ac to dc conversion process. The inefficiency in a linear PSU is in the regulator (which wastes energy as heat) and not (in general) in the rectifier or smoothing circuit. Of course a high-frequency SMPS can get away with smaller smoothing capacitors and a smaller (ferrite-cored) transfoemer. > > Efficient power supplies are switching type, little heat > and low losses in conversion process plus very light weight. > But they use same design in outputs (secondaries but for some who > knows electronics, these uses high frequency or fast recovery diodes) See my comment on that crazy Zenith PSU that I mentioned in an earlier post.... -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 20:54:02 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: Hams who collect In-Reply-To: <199706231948.OAA04137@eagle.ais.net>; from "Richard W. Schauer" at Jun 23, 97 2:48 pm Message-ID: <199706231954.13729@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > KF9VP here, sorting through 200+ messages from the list. > > I must admit, I've found most of my computers at hamfests, but things have > been getting rather rare (and sporadic) lately. Yes, about 5 years ago there was a peak (in the UK) of classic computers turning up at rallies. The last couple of rallies I've been to have been rather disapointing - a lot of modern-ish PC's (486's, etc), and very few machines of interest. I did pick up a few interesting bits (including a Sharp machine that seems to have run MS-DOS (or possibly CP/M86) but which certianly wasn't a PC-clone), but the really interesting stuff (boxes of DEC boards, Intellecs, S100 stuff, etc) seems to be no more. Still, keep looking. You never know what will turn up next... > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 12:01:32 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:04 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts In-Reply-To: <33AE8DA4.3A06@christcom.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Dan Rector wrote: > I was looking through a book I had picked up a year or so ago called > "The Elementary Commodore 64". Towards the front amongst the > description of various types of peripherals available for the C64 under > the title "Other Gadgets" was this: > > Z-80 CP/M -- This cartridge goes right into the cartridge slot to turn > your machine into a Z-80 base computer enabling you to access the vast > array of CP/M software. With over 2000 CP/M software programs > available, there is little you will not be able to access. You can find one for sale from time to time on the usenet. What I am looking for is an expansion box called the Spartan which enable the C64 to run Apple ][ software. It was an emulator, basically. On another note, has anyone ever seen (or have) a Basis-xxx? I know it has a number in the name, but I can't remember it. It was an Apple ][ clone that also ran CP/M I believe? Something like that. I'm sure someone knows about it. I only knew one guy who ever had one, but I never saw it. It was a friend in high school back in 1989. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 11:31:43 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <199706230434.VAA21830@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 22 Jun 1997, Frank McConnell wrote: > If you look in the Apple ][ red book, there is a little circuit > in there that plugs into the game I/O connector and drives a > 20mA current loop. Alongside there is a short assembly program > to drive it. Now there is a bit-banger. Woz designed a printer to work off of the internal I/O port. > There was an unspectacular serial card for the ][. I don't recall it > being a bit banger, just that the combination of it and the printer I > was using at the time (an IDS BrighterWriter) wasn't smart enough to > manage any sort of common flow control, so that I had to run it at 300 > baud. I thought it had some sort of UART-like thing, but maybe my > brain is going again. I have that card. Its in my box o' apple peripherals. I thinks its just generically named "Apple Serial Interface". Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 11:27:41 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706230248.WAA15427@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > > That was a limitation introduced with the //e. The 80 column board had > > its own special slot that took over slot 3 if you had it populated. > > However, nothing was stopping you from putting another 80-column board > > (such as a Videx) in another slot and using that, although I can't think > > for the life of me why you'd need two 80-column cards. > > > Debugging. You can run your program on one screen, and have debugging > output/debugger output on the second screen. I did that once on a PS/2 when > I was writing code to manage the 8514 display. It was very nice to see not > only the output, but have the debugger not munging the display. You couldn't do that on an Apple. It only had one video output. Unless the 80-col card in question had a seperate video output. And then you'd have to go back to that clever programming thing. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 11:40:41 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Cocos In-Reply-To: <33AE212E.7929@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > IIRC, there was some debate in the _really_ early rainbow magazines. > > > (Or maybe it was in the 80 Micros. I have those, I'll have to check > > > later.) They were trying to decide a nickname for the Colour > > > Computer. I don't remember off hand what some of the other candidates > > > were, but there were some people who thought CoCo was too 'cute' or > > > non-business like or some such. > > > > I've always held the nickname as being rather obnoxious. Calling it the > > "COC" would have been more masculine and macho! > > Ah! Yes, but very few men would have bought it... Well, I don't necessarily want to be having a love affair with my "CoCo" either. At least with a COC you could say "I play with my COC all day! I love the feel of my COC under my fingertips". Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 11:10:40 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231918.12579@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199706231851.OAA20006@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 2:51 pm Message-ID: <199706232010.QAA28223@mail.cgocable.net> Tony, Ok, > > I was wrong. It's 17-0-17V, then. That's what I will use. Great. > > > to ground, what else how can negative voltages can be generated so > > it needs this ground. The both outside 2 pins for 17v ac lines goes > > Well, it could use a switching regulator. OK, I know it doesn't do so for > the negative voltages - obviously I wasn't thinking straight earlier... > > > there. The card rectify it to generate 3 dc voltages, two is > > positive and other one is negative. Bulk of the components is used > > to generate 5vdc, and a wimpy 12vdc source for the floppy drive and > > The 5V regulator seems to be a switching one, which is what I'd have > expected. Huh? That would make sense because the linear regulator in T220 case is limited to 1.5amp which it requires measly 3.6amp on that 5v lines. > Yes, is that suprising? After all, a switching supply is nothing magical. > You still need to transform the AC output into DC and regulate it. Of > course you can always perform some regulation on an SMPS by varying the > drive waveforms on the primary side. Hmmm...I fix PC powers and modern SMPS for the computer all the time to save $. Around here in canada costs above $60cdn for a new 200watt PSU. > > Talking of bad design (I was earlier...) I've seen some _crazy_ SMPS's in > my time. In a Zenith monitor there's a supply that combines the > reliability of a switcher with the efficiency of a linear. It rectifies > the mains, feeds it to a free-running chopper (no regulation applied > here), shoves that into a little transformer, rectifies the output and > feeds it (about 18V DC) into a linear regulator that uses the power-on LED > as the reference. It's the only monitor that _requires_ a green power-on > LED. When my blew up (chopper failed, etc), I replaced the entire mess > with a little torroidal transformer. It was cheaper than a new chopper > transistor and a lot simpler. > Ewwww.... that is bit overkill to design that! But closed loop switchers is very efficient and compact but that transformer is certainly larger than the orignals. Are you talking about this beige tiny 12" green or amber monitor with angular back? In this, chopper trans pops and kills one resistor. They are usually either TTL or composite. I have a working zenith Eazy PC with hd in it. Slow and buggy. :) > Then there are the Boschert 2-stage supplies that are used in Sanders > printers and PERQ 1's (and probably elsewhere). A shorted chopper in one > of those (which is a very common failure mode) will blow up 2 more > expensive power transistors and then take out a number of small > transistors, the chopper control IC (a good old 723), a few passives and a > couple of PCB tracks. I had to sort out such a mess once - I can provide > the full story if anyone's interested. Hmmm... you could email me privately with this account of yours. :) I have a astec PSU switcher that one big transistor on masssive heatsink driving BOTH switching transformers. Is one of that odd design? > > Odd... That's not in my TechRef... Well it was on different page I think, I did not have it as I was looking through it and copying few vital items. But it did show the pinouts only. Oh yeah, the power card does have a 2 pin connector near the transformer input, that is wired directly to the center tapped to the motherboard ground. It is required to make PCjr work reliably. Check your techref, mine is different book is incorrect but my analysis is correct and was used to power up PCjr via SMPS box: pin 1 is -5v, 2 and 3 is ground, 4 through 7 is 5v, 8 and 9 is ground again, finally 10 is 12v. I guess it did not require -12v. oops. :) Relation of pin A1 starts from front end works backwards to back for pin A10. For the transformer, it is 33watt fused, 17ac-0-17vac in same order as power input for the power board. By the way, where I could buy this real techref and how much? Soooo, I could fix up it with addons to XT standards. > But that is. The PSU card schematics (starting from the 3 pin connector) > were included. My source version didn't. :( Thanks. Jason D. From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 23 15:13:41 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Why and attendant threads... In-Reply-To: <199706220343.AA02635@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: OK Folks, I've been away for a week and not reading my e-mail. I am halfway through 700 messages right now and have been catching up on what seems to be a whole lot of off-topic chatter. If you are involved in e-mail regarding the following subjects please repair to private e-mail: International customs Sale or transfer of specific items (that is, working out the details) "Me too's" Also please refrain from one-liner responses when not absolutely neccesary. The traffic on list list has gotten to be such that unneccessary responses are generally more agravating than clever or fun. I am somewhat disappointed about the last week's posts but sometimes a minor misunderstanding can grow out-of-control when communicated through e-mail. I think its always good to point out that this has been a very civil list from the start - I hope it will remain that way. I think the enthusiasm and sense of community we have here is great and we all need to work a little to keep it in the forefront. I will hold off saying anything more until I catch up with today. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 11:16:04 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? In-Reply-To: <199706231923.12867@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199706231859.NAA01761@challenge.sunflower.com>; from "Bill Girnius" at Jun 23, 97 2:02 pm Message-ID: <199706232015.QAA28786@mail.cgocable.net> > > > > What am I making here? Do we know yet? > > OK. I was mistaken. It appears that what's needed is a 34V centre-tapped > transformer (we'd call it a 17-0-17V transformer in the UK). You link it > up like this : > > > > Mains > In PC-jr power input > ---------)||(--------------------( 1 > )||( > )||(17V > 110V )||(____________________( 2 > )||( > )||(17V > )||( > ---------)||(--------------------( 3 > Mains > In > > You could also use a transformer with 2 separate 17V windings (they're > more common than tapped ones in the UK). You'd link that up like this : > > > Mains > In 17V PC-jr power input > ---------)||(--------------------( 1 > )||( > )||(---+ > 110V )|| 0V +----------------( 2 > )|| 17V| > )||(---+ > )||( > ---------)||(--------------------( 3 > Mains 0V > In > > Notice the secondary connections put the 2 windings in (additive) series. That works. BUT, you need to watch the direction of phase on those paralleled transformers in secondaries and tied together primaries. Watch the wattage rating. :) > > > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill > > Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 11:19:53 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: References: <02010783012841@michianatoday.com> Message-ID: <199706232019.QAA29115@mail.cgocable.net> > > perhiperals to the 64 via the serial bus worked NICE, and I can prove > > history is repeating itself. Look at the new USB (Universal Serial Bus) > > If not slow as hell. The worst part about the commodore 1541 drive is > that it had its own processor, and it was still slow. The bottleneck was > the serial interface. Commodore was lame not to use something faster > than, what was it, 19.2K? In contrast, the Apple Disk ][ could transfer > data at about a rate of 16K per second. Not really, The main problem is that C= drive is commanded to read one track then inner then back out then again and again. Find a software to reorder those tracks on that disk to make it read one by one in series fashion. Then it's faster. > Yeah, it was called daisy-chaining. Yes right. Early computers invented this "USB" first. :) > > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Jason D. From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 11:37:41 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > OK, I just got my first decent item since I stopped collecting > several years ago. This is an original apple II, serial number 7833. It Very nice. > I'm guessing that some folks here may know a bit more about > system restoration. Mind if I ask a few questions? > > How do I go about cleaning this without destroying the case? Does > anyone know of some good solvents or cleaners for plastic? Get yourself a stiff-bristled plastic brush and a good cleaner like perhaps Formula 405. Again, I use an organic cleaner called L.O.C. (an Amway product). Flood the case with the cleaner and brush it with the brush. It may not take off all the goop, but it will do a good job (depending on your cleaner, mine works fantastic). > Can I pull a keytop off the keyboard without destroying the key? > If it's really bad I guess I could change keyboards - but I'd really like > to attempt to get this guy working, as it was the original. Spray your cleaner on the keyboard and scrub with the brush. It'll work very well. When you're done, lift each key off (yes you can, they come right off and you pop them right back on) and clean each individual one around the sides as needed, but the brushing should have done the trick. Clean all the hair, fuzzballs, food and other misceallny from the bottom of the keys. Replace all the keycaps. Of course rememberto note down where they all go. > And then there's stuff: I lack a floppy disk drive. Hmmm... how > rare is hard disk technology that will work with this apple? Hahaha, > here's a good one: does anyone know if ever there's been manufactured > 10base-T cards, or am I just dreaming here? If so, guess I'll be looking > for a SuperSerial card as well. Yes and no. They have an Apple ][ Workstation Card but they only work on the Apple //e. > And basic 'dumb' (no time to RTFM quite yet!!) questions: How do > I get out of the ROM monitor into BASIC? I guess I need some basic DOCS > here as well as a good technical reference, huh?. I figure most of the Press CTRL-C or CTRL-B and then RETURN. > And the guy couldn't imagine why I'd want it!!! What a fool! :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 21:26:40 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706232010.QAA28223@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 4:10 pm Message-ID: <199706232026.14795@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > The 5V regulator seems to be a switching one, which is what I'd have > > expected. > Huh? That would make sense because the linear regulator in T220 case > is limited to 1.5amp which it requires measly 3.6amp on that 5v > lines. In the PC-jr, I think the 5V regulator was a step-down switching one using that large inductor on the PSU card as the energy-storage device. The 12V supply is (AFAIK) a linear one. I am working from memory - my PC-jr Techref is about 70 miles away, > > > Yes, is that suprising? After all, a switching supply is nothing magical. > > You still need to transform the AC output into DC and regulate it. Of > > course you can always perform some regulation on an SMPS by varying the > > drive waveforms on the primary side. > Hmmm...I fix PC powers and modern SMPS for the computer all the time > to save $. Around here in canada costs above $60cdn for a new > 200watt PSU. Yep, so do I. Most SMPS faults are pretty simple (at least if the transformer has not got shorted turns...). And it's certainly worth doing for the more obscure supplies (i.e. not generic PC ones...) > > > > > Talking of bad design (I was earlier...) I've seen some _crazy_ SMPS's in > > my time. In a Zenith monitor there's a supply that combines the > > reliability of a switcher with the efficiency of a linear. It rectifies > > the mains, feeds it to a free-running chopper (no regulation applied > > here), shoves that into a little transformer, rectifies the output and > > feeds it (about 18V DC) into a linear regulator that uses the power-on LED > > as the reference. It's the only monitor that _requires_ a green power-on > > LED. When my blew up (chopper failed, etc), I replaced the entire mess > > with a little torroidal transformer. It was cheaper than a new chopper > > transistor and a lot simpler. > > > Ewwww.... that is bit overkill to design that! But closed loop Do you meant the redesing of using the torroidal transformer (at 50Hz)? It was trivial - jumper over the chopper transfomer, rip out the chopper board, use the mains rectifier as the LV one and feed 20V AC up the 'mains' cable. A lot less work than rebuilding the SMPS in my case > switchers is very efficient and compact but that transformer is > certainly larger than the orignals. Actually, the 50Hz 30VA transformer was no larger than the original bits... > Are you talking about this beige tiny 12" green or amber monitor with That's the one. > angular back? In this, chopper trans pops and kills one resistor. Well, I had shorted turns in the chopper transformer (tested on a homebrew 'ring tester'). It didn't seem worth rewinding. > They are usually either TTL or composite. > I have a working zenith Eazy PC with hd in it. Slow and buggy. :) I still have mine on a much-hacked PC/AT > > > Then there are the Boschert 2-stage supplies that are used in Sanders > > printers and PERQ 1's (and probably elsewhere). A shorted chopper in one > > of those (which is a very common failure mode) will blow up 2 more > > expensive power transistors and then take out a number of small > > transistors, the chopper control IC (a good old 723), a few passives and a > > couple of PCB tracks. I had to sort out such a mess once - I can provide > > the full story if anyone's interested. > Hmmm... you could email me privately with this account of yours. :) It may as well go here - it's just about on-topic.... The basic circuit design is : 1) Rectify/double the AC mains input to give 340V DC 2) Feed that into a non-isolated 'flyback' converter to step it down to 150V. 3) Feed the output of that into a free-running push-pull oscillator using a couple of big power transistors. 4) That oscillator drives the primary of the main transformer 5) The outputs of that transformer are rectified and smoothed. The 5V output is fed back via a regulator/optoisolator to the oscillator that drives the 'flyback' chopper mentioned in (2). 6) Oh, there's a crowbar triggered from the 5V output that shorts the 24V output to ground in the event of overvoltage. There's also a current-sense resistor in the return line from the oscillator (3) that shuts down the drive to (2) if it overcurrents. Now, here's what goes wrong. 1) The chopper (2) shorts. The output of that stage now leaps to 340V (since there's a DC path through the shorted transistor and the inductor) 2) The oscillator (3) continues running, so the 5V line leaps to about 12V 3) The crowbar trips, shorting the output to ground 4) The overcurrent trip tries to work, but as the chopper (2) is shorted, it doesn't do a darn thing. 5) The 2 oscillator transistors short as well. The total load on the 340V line is now the 3 shorted transistors, a few low-resistance inductors, and the 0.12 Ohm sense resistor. The latter explodes, feeding 340V into the sense circuitry, which dies expensively, often taking some PCB tracks with it. 6) The fuse fails... > By the way, where I could buy this real techref and how much? > Soooo, I could fix up it with addons to XT standards. > I got mine from IBM about 2 months ago. I'll try and find the part number/form number to order it if you like. > Jason D. > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 21:29:29 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? In-Reply-To: <199706232015.QAA28786@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 4:16 pm Message-ID: <199706232029.14863@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > You could also use a transformer with 2 separate 17V windings (they're > > more common than tapped ones in the UK). You'd link that up like this : > > > > > > Mains > > In 17V PC-jr power input > > ---------)||(--------------------( 1 > > )||( > > )||(---+ > > 110V )|| 0V +----------------( 2 > > )|| 17V| > > )||(---+ > > )||( > > ---------)||(--------------------( 3 > > Mains 0V > > In > > > > Notice the secondary connections put the 2 windings in (additive) series. > That works. BUT, you need to watch the direction of phase on those > paralleled transformers in secondaries and tied together > primaries. Watch the wattage rating. :) That's why I put the 0V and 17V markings on the schematic. In the UK, it's conventional to mark the 'start' of a winding with 0V and the 'end' with the appropriate voltage. > Jason D. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 11:42:54 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231950.13633@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199706231938.PAA24628@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 3:38 pm Message-ID: <199706232042.QAA01449@mail.cgocable.net> Tony, > > I'm not sure I understand that at all. I assume you're saying that it's a > 12-0-12 trasformer (or actually 17-0-17 - I am _sure_ 17V is mentioned > somewhere in the IBM manual). Oh, It was just a unloaded probing run to figure out what voltage is there because my reference is all screwed up. Actually did it with a regular small transformer not those center tapped ones. Sorry. > Do you agree with the circuits I've just sent out? If not, could you > please tell me where I've gone wrong? > Yours is fine. :) > > Hello? Knock, knock...:) Anyway I did clearly remember that 17v ac Don't take as a poke, I was just in jest, good mood. :) > > Yes, I'm here... Whew. > > Yes, that sounds 100% reasonable. I may be from Cambridge, but I do > understand _some_ electrical engineering :-) (Seriously, I had to explain > jsut that to a 3rd year student in electrical engineering the other > week..... There is something wrong with the world.) You got my ears peaked up. What was that trouble with this 3rd student's error? > > After all 'There is no such thing as ground' What you take as a 0V > reference is entirely up to you. Really? Common, ground, 0V, neutral, power return makes my mind spin but I adapt to what you're talking about...so you're not talking mumbo-jumbo stuff. :) > > The inefficiency in a linear PSU is in the regulator (which wastes energy > as heat) and not (in general) in the rectifier or smoothing circuit. Of > course a high-frequency SMPS can get away with smaller smoothing > capacitors and a smaller (ferrite-cored) transfoemer. I know about this linears heating problem and I do have a old Asus P/I-P55TP4XEG pentium which has one on board. HOT as sun and must air-forced cooled on it keep it bit warm not hot. :) But my Asus P/I-P55T2P4 rev 3.x new board now uses switchers on it and they use tiny heatsinks and stayed cool even they're able to channel 10amp through them. Impressive. And more IMPRESSIVELY is that Asus's new VX and TX boards uses these SMT switchers without any heatsink, relying on ground planes to spread heat out and radiated off. Why I had to get new one? Old XEG I/O chip blown by static accidently but I removed that SMT 100 legged IC and it worked again for other purposes for now. > > > > > Efficient power supplies are switching type, little heat > > and low losses in conversion process plus very light weight. > > But they use same design in outputs (secondaries but for some who > > knows electronics, these uses high frequency or fast recovery diodes) > > See my comment on that crazy Zenith PSU that I mentioned in an earlier > post.... Done and replied! :) > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill > Jason D. From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 11:53:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <199706230813.7137@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > This is true, but if you want to do strange things with PC (or any other) > > > hardware then design the card you need. It's not that hard, and it won't > > > affect the machine's performance in other areas. > > > > But its much faster and easier to do it with software. One of the > > Maybe for you. I find it a lot easier to solder up a card (which has a > good chance of working first or second time...) than to write and debug > software. In all my recent projects the hardware (quite complex hardware > - 10's of chips) has taken a lot less time than the (minimal) software. Depends on your forte. Mine happens to be software. I'll bet I can write the software faster than you can solder the board. HOWEVER, I'll also wager that you have a lot more flexibility since you can design in features to your hardware that I cannot program in to my software. > > things that made the Apple so nice was that it was an excellent > > prototyping machine. You had all sorts of inputs and outputs with which > > to play with. You didn't need to spend time designing an interface card, > > the Apple was experimenter ready! Just add software. > > The standard I/O (on the games port) consisted of (IIRC) a few > resitor-reading ADCs, a few single-bit inputs and a few outputs. Not a lot > IMHO. The BBC micro had 8 I/O lines, another 8 outputs if you didn't use > the printer port, handshake lines for all those, 4 ADC channels (10 bit, I > think) _and_ a system bus with a couple of decoded chip select signals on > it. That's what I call an experimenter's machine. > > And is it that hard to design an address decoder? It's one chip these > days, probably 2 or 3 at the time the Apple 2 was 'current' Probably or you know for sure? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 11:50:36 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? In-Reply-To: <199706232029.14863@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199706232015.QAA28786@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 4:16 pm Message-ID: <199706232050.QAA02285@mail.cgocable.net> Tony, Nip to save bandwidth! > > > In > > > > > > Notice the secondary connections put the 2 windings in (additive) series. > > That works. BUT, you need to watch the direction of phase on those > > paralleled transformers in secondaries and tied together > > primaries. Watch the wattage rating. :) > > That's why I put the 0V and 17V markings on the schematic. In the UK, it's > conventional to mark the 'start' of a winding with 0V and the 'end' with > the appropriate voltage. For us, we use dot(s for more than one seperate windings) near the diagram of winding to show which way the direction of windings and write out one AC voltage outputs for each windings. Yes, in metric too! Jason D. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 21:51:06 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 23, 97 9:53 am Message-ID: <199706232051.15624@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Maybe for you. I find it a lot easier to solder up a card (which has a > > good chance of working first or second time...) than to write and debug > > software. In all my recent projects the hardware (quite complex hardware > > - 10's of chips) has taken a lot less time than the (minimal) software. > > Depends on your forte. Mine happens to be software. I'll bet I can Agreed 100%. I happen to be like Steve Ciarcia - 'my favourite programming language is solder'. > write the software faster than you can solder the board. HOWEVER, I'll I wouldn't bet on it.... I've been known to go from idea to working prototype in < 1 day. > also wager that you have a lot more flexibility since you can design in > features to your hardware that I cannot program in to my software. And if I'm allowed to use some of those Xilinx FPGA chips, I can even design reconfigurable hardware that you can change by just downloading a new file.... [...] > > And is it that hard to design an address decoder? It's one chip these > > days, probably 2 or 3 at the time the Apple 2 was 'current' > > Probably or you know for sure? Well, lets see... Does anyone know when the 74LS68x series came out? Were they around when the Apple ][ was current. PALs were sort-of current, and I guess a 14L4 would be an ideal address decoder. That's one chip if I can use a PAL or 2 if I can use a couple of 74LS68x's (to decode an entire 16 bit address bus) If you insist I stick to 'classic' TTL then I'd want a 74LS133 13 input NAND gate, and a couple of 74LS04 inverters. That would decode just about any combination of 13 address lines. If you want all 16, then add a 74LS138 for a total of 4 chip max (and you might get away with only one '04 if you're lucky. > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 23 16:54:12 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 23, 97 10:01:32 am Message-ID: <9706232054.AA31204@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970623/e4b69075/attachment.ksh From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 21:57:28 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706232042.QAA01449@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 4:42 pm Message-ID: <199706232057.15805@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Yes, that sounds 100% reasonable. I may be from Cambridge, but I do > > understand _some_ electrical engineering :-) (Seriously, I had to explain > > jsut that to a 3rd year student in electrical engineering the other > > week..... There is something wrong with the world.) > You got my ears peaked up. What was that trouble with this 3rd > student's error? A couple of things. Firstly I had to explain that if you connect cells/batteries in series then the voltages add but if you connect (equal voltage) them in parallel the voltage is unchanged but the internal resistance and capacity are increased. Secondly I had to explain that as the battery could 'float' with respect to the 0V rail, you could use a -5V regulator as a supply for a board of logic devices. > > > > After all 'There is no such thing as ground' What you take as a 0V > > reference is entirely up to you. > Really? Common, ground, 0V, neutral, power return makes my mind spin > but I adapt to what you're talking about...so you're not talking > mumbo-jumbo stuff. :) The point is that you can connect the -ve lead of your voltmeter wherever you like. There is no god-given 0V point. If you have a circuit that takes in 3V and gives out -5V (a common SMPS chip can be configured to do just that) you can easily run some TTL from it. The '-5V' line from the PSU becomes the '0V' line on the logic and the '0V' line on the PSU is the '+5V' line on the logic. Of course you have to be _very_ careful if any voltages are referenced to anything else, like mains ground. > I know about this linears heating problem and I do have a old Asus I have a 5V 50A _linear_ in one of my Unibus expanison boxes (a 3rd party one - DEC almost always used SMPS's). It runs hot. > Jason D. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Mon Jun 23 15:55:01 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199706232055.PAA19803@fudge.uchicago.edu> Sam Ismail wrote, > You can find one for sale from time to time on the usenet. What I am > looking for is an expansion box called the Spartan which enable the C64 > to run Apple ][ software. It was an emulator, basically. Emulator gives it too much credit, I think -- more like an Apple II clone that happens to use the C64's display and keyboard. Would you really want to emulate a 6502 with a 1MHz 6502? :) > On another note, has anyone ever seen (or have) a Basis-xxx? I know it > has a number in the name, but I can't remember it. The number is 108, but no, I don't have one. eric From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jun 23 15:23:32 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: References: <199706230316.AA05134@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <2560C6C20129@ifrsys.com> > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:20:16 +0000 (GMT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Yes, there are plenty of true innovations today, but most are simply hype... > > Example: Anything from Microsoft. > > Now, now, no slamming of manufacturers, regardless of you religous faith! Peace. Jeff From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 21:59:45 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? In-Reply-To: <199706232050.QAA02285@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 4:50 pm Message-ID: <199706232059.15869@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > That's why I put the 0V and 17V markings on the schematic. In the UK, it's > > conventional to mark the 'start' of a winding with 0V and the 'end' with > > the appropriate voltage. > For us, we use dot(s for more than one seperate windings) near the > diagram of winding to show which way the direction of windings and > write out one AC voltage outputs for each windings. Yes, in metric > too! Yes, I've seen that convention. But if you buy a transformer over here, the connection tags will be labelled 0V and 17V or whatever. I've never seen a physical transformer marked with a dot (that's not to say they don't exist). > > Jason D. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Mon Jun 23 15:59:16 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199706232059.PAA19881@fudge.uchicago.edu> Sam Ismail wrote, > > Debugging. You can run your program on one screen, and have debugging > > output/debugger output on the second screen. I did that once on a PS/2 when > > I was writing code to manage the 8514 display. It was very nice to see not > > only the output, but have the debugger not munging the display. > > You couldn't do that on an Apple. It only had one video output. Unless > the 80-col card in question had a seperate video output. And then you'd > have to go back to that clever programming thing. But that is how traditional Apple II 80-column cards worked -- they had their own video output that you had to attach to another monitor or switch back and forth by hand. The spiffy ones had a switch to flip back and forth, or the *really* spiffy ones could even do it in software. But it was only with the IIe that the 80-column video started to be automatically a part of the internal video output. Before that, the card might as well have been a terminal attached to a Super Serial card. eric From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 23 17:05:15 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <199706232051.15624@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 23, 97 09:51:06 pm Message-ID: <9706232105.AA11236@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1314 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970623/211dd038/attachment.ksh From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Mon Jun 23 16:02:22 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts In-Reply-To: <9706232054.AA31204@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <9706232054.AA31204@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <199706232102.QAA19944@fudge.uchicago.edu> Tim Shoppa wrote, > > On another note, has anyone ever seen (or have) a Basis-xxx? > > I believe these were designed/built in Europe, probably Germany. The US advertising went something like "Some people drive fine German machines to work. Some people drive fine German machines once they get there." I think this was accompanied with a picture of someone typing on it wearing leather gloves, but I may be must mixing it up with Apple's ill-fated "test drive a Macintosh" ad campaign. eric From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 23 17:09:01 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706232057.15805@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 23, 97 09:57:28 pm Message-ID: <9706232109.AA11912@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 379 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970623/c35c0b12/attachment.ksh From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 22:13:41 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <9706232105.AA11236@alph02.triumf.ca>; from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 23, 97 2:05 pm Message-ID: <199706232113.16285@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > Well, lets see... Does anyone know when the 74LS68x series came out? Were > > they around when the Apple ][ was current. PALs were sort-of current, and > > I guess a 14L4 would be an ideal address decoder. > > Ah - if you think of 74LS68x and 14L4's as "current" with the introduction Well, I knew the PALs were a little later (1980?) - the first PERQ had no PALs at all - only PROMs, TTL, ECL, RAMs and Z80 stuff. Later ones were stuffed with PALs. When did the 74LS68x come out. I have no idea. > > If you insist I stick to 'classic' TTL then I'd want a 74LS133 13 input > > NAND gate, and a couple of 74LS04 inverters. That would decode just about > > any combination of 13 address lines. If you want all 16, then add a > > 74LS138 for a total of 4 chip max (and you might get away with only one > > '04 if you're lucky. > > Remember, 4 more chips increases the chip count on a Disk ][ by 50 > percent! So? I think of it as 4 more cheap chips, not a 50% increase in hardware. And yes I do realise that the cost of chips is hardly the end of the story - board area and layout costs a lot more than TTL. > > If you don't like having the traditional slot addresses predecoded, > you've always been able to do your own decoding. The resulting > cards won't be compatible with the existing scheme of slot > addressing, so you better write your own operating systems and > languages so that the users can use your new devices :-) I dislike the idea of geographical addressing which limits the number of slots you can have, and means the user has to know which slot things are in. I didn't like the bank-switching scheme for the ROMs on the I/O cards, but as address space was tight (although a lot was wasted by those addressable latches used as 'soft switches), I guess nothing else was possible. > > Tim. > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 22:14:51 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <9706232109.AA11912@alph02.triumf.ca>; from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 23, 97 2:09 pm Message-ID: <199706232114.16401@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > A couple of things. Firstly I had to explain that if you connect > > cells/batteries in series then the voltages add but if you connect (equal > > voltage) them in parallel the voltage is unchanged but the internal > > resistance and capacity are increased. > > Gees, you'd confuse me, too, if you tried to > convince me that paralleling cells > will increase internal resistance. > Ouch!!!. Of course I meant that the intenal resistance was _decreased_ and the capacity was increased... What was I thinking???? > Tim. > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 12:20:51 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706232026.14795@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199706232010.QAA28223@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 4:10 pm Message-ID: <199706232120.RAA05621@mail.cgocable.net> Tony, Ok that is no problem with PCjr matter. :) > Yep, so do I. Most SMPS faults are pretty simple (at least if the > transformer has not got shorted turns...). And it's certainly worth doing > for the more obscure supplies (i.e. not generic PC ones...) Shorted turns is very, very rare in SMPS that I came across. Long run of lucky I guess. > > > as the reference. It's the only monitor that _requires_ a green power-on > > > LED. When my blew up (chopper failed, etc), I replaced the entire mess > > > with a little torroidal transformer. It was cheaper than a new chopper > > > transistor and a lot simpler. > > > Using LED as a reference? That is poor idea to do that! It should have put the sense line on that heavy current line to work. Hmmm your hack to feed 20vac there looked better! :) > Actually, the 50Hz 30VA transformer was no larger than the original > bits... Cool! > > > Are you talking about this beige tiny 12" green or amber monitor with > > That's the one. > > > angular back? In this, chopper trans pops and kills one resistor. > > Well, I had shorted turns in the chopper transformer (tested on a homebrew > 'ring tester'). It didn't seem worth rewinding. Too bad that happened! That is pretty rare for me. > I still have mine on a much-hacked PC/AT Oh yea, it looked nice and impossibly compact. I prefer TTL there than composite unless it is for color. > > It may as well go here - it's just about on-topic.... > > The basic circuit design is : > > 1) Rectify/double the AC mains input to give 340V DC > 2) Feed that into a non-isolated 'flyback' converter to step it down to > 150V. hi frenquency ac or dc at that point? > 3) Feed the output of that into a free-running push-pull oscillator using > a couple of big power transistors. Well, I can't imagine that would able to work if the power is ac to that push/pull trans? > 4) That oscillator drives the primary of the main transformer Snip! loads of worthless protection info... :) > drive to (2) if it overcurrents. > > Now, here's what goes wrong. > > 1) The chopper (2) shorts. The output of that stage now leaps to 340V > (since there's a DC path through the shorted transistor and the inductor) Ah! Not a transformer just a giant inductor driven by that chopper? :) that would be a biggest OUCHIE! Why not jerryjig a design to clamp down based on voltage level when exceeding 150v at this point when chopper went so it will blow the fuse instead? > 2) The oscillator (3) continues running, so the 5V line leaps to about 12V > 3) The crowbar trips, shorting the output to ground > 4) The overcurrent trip tries to work, but as the chopper (2) is shorted, > it doesn't do a darn thing. Other option, Why not use this output of this crowbar to trip other clamper at the 340vdc output to blow the fuse instantly? You want to blow the fuse first before the last 2 trans dies resulting in expensive heap of smelly stuff. :) > 5) The 2 oscillator transistors short as well. The total load on the 340V > line is now the 3 shorted transistors, a few low-resistance inductors, and > the 0.12 Ohm sense resistor. The latter explodes, feeding 340V into the > sense circuitry, which dies expensively, often taking some PCB tracks with > it. > 6) The fuse fails... What a load of smelly results and worthless fuse there! :( > I got mine from IBM about 2 months ago. I'll try and find the part > number/form number to order it if you like. Thank you, I will find out how it costs when I have that part number. Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 12:27:04 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? In-Reply-To: <199706232059.15869@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199706232050.QAA02285@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 4:50 pm Message-ID: <199706232126.RAA06293@mail.cgocable.net> > Yes, I've seen that convention. But if you buy a transformer over here, > the connection tags will be labelled 0V and 17V or whatever. I've never > seen a physical transformer marked with a dot (that's not to say they > don't exist). Yeah, nothing marked to tell us of phases. :) So that invites mistakes by unwary who makes power supplies on their own. That why I offered warning. :) (hey, my power supply did not work...) eyes up. :) Jason D. From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 23 16:34:59 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? Message-ID: <199706232131.QAA14527@challenge.sunflower.com> Okay, I asked a simple question. Got 3 differnt answers, and folks referring to "over here" and whatever. I live in the US, I will need to go to radio shack to build this. Which diagram is the safest, what parts do I need, and what do I do. ---------- > From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: IBM PCjr Allright????? > Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 12:27 PM > > > > Yes, I've seen that convention. But if you buy a transformer over here, > > the connection tags will be labelled 0V and 17V or whatever. I've never > > seen a physical transformer marked with a dot (that's not to say they > > don't exist). > Yeah, nothing marked to tell us of phases. :) So that invites > mistakes by unwary who makes power supplies on their own. That why I > offered warning. :) > > (hey, my power supply did not work...) eyes up. :) > > Jason D. From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 23 16:30:06 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <2560C6C20129@ifrsys.com> References: <199706230316.AA05134@interlock.ans.net> <2560C6C20129@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <33b0ea96.18951151@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 14:23:32 -0600, you wrote: %> %> Example: Anything from Microsoft. %> %> % %Now, now, no slamming of manufacturers, regardless of you religous %faith! And 10 years down the road, you'll be begging for an original copy of Windows 95 (the version launched in 1995) to add to your collection. :-) Ben From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Jun 23 16:47:43 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Apple III+'s for sale Message-ID: but *not* from me! Read carefully! Forwarded from comp.apple2.marketplace --- Begin forwarded message --- Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 05:22:35 -0600 From: HartranftR@nabisco.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.marketplace Subject: Apple III's for sale FYI ... I have 5 Apple ///'s for sale (improved re-release version), including original monitors. Some with 512K memory. Some peripherals also, including spare parts, Corvus 20 meg server with related Apple III interface cards. Would prefer selling at least computers/monitors in bulk and will consider any reasonable offers. I understand there are now thriving museums and actual user groups still utilizing. If NOT interested, would appreciate any leads for other possible contacts. These machines actually served us quite well ! Thanks Rich H -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet --- end of forwarded message --- -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 12:50:19 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? In-Reply-To: <199706232131.QAA14527@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <199706232150.RAA08691@mail.cgocable.net> Bill, Sorry for all those conflicts... through. > Okay, I asked a simple question. Got 3 differnt answers, and folks > referring to "over here" and whatever. > > I live in the US, I will need to go to radio shack to build this. Huh huh uh uh ... 'bout the Rat Shock, Bascially mostly wires and plugs etc.. all you can use wires and few connectors but does not hurt to check for PCjr's connector and none has the transformers at 17volts. But they do have experimenter's boxes of any sizes and shapes, basic most electronic parts that nearly no one could use. :)) Only 12v types. You need to find local electronic supplier and order two regular transformers 17ac at 2amp each or one center tapped transformer of 17vac-0-17vac around 33watts or 2amp each if supplier has it or cheaper whichever. > Which diagram is the safest, what parts do I need, and what do I do. Wait until you find out where you can get a transformer of either two types dual transformers or one center tap then apply proper circuit to either one of two types. Also, better put a fast acting 1.5amp fuse on primary side of 120vac and insulate well all properly soldered connections and box it up with grounded plug for safety sake!!! Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 12:53:04 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Apple III+'s for sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706232152.RAA08935@mail.cgocable.net> > Subject: Apple III+'s for sale Knock, knock hello Rich? Nary a price for each system with add ons in sight! > but *not* from me! Read carefully! > > Forwarded from comp.apple2.marketplace > > --- Begin forwarded message --- > > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 05:22:35 -0600 > From: HartranftR@nabisco.com > Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.marketplace > Subject: Apple III's for sale > > FYI ... I have 5 Apple ///'s for sale (improved re-release > version), including original monitors. Some with 512K memory. Some > peripherals also, including spare parts, Corvus 20 meg server with > related Apple III interface cards. Would prefer selling at least > computers/monitors in bulk and will consider any reasonable offers. I > understand there are now thriving museums and actual user groups still > utilizing. If NOT interested, would appreciate any leads for other > possible contacts. These machines actually served us quite well ! > > Thanks > Rich H From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 23 17:24:43 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) References: Message-ID: <33AEF7AB.26EA@ndirect.co.uk> Scott Walde wrote: > > > This is STILL an American computer. You seem not to be interested in > > others like the Sopectrum, the BBC, Oric Atmos, Camputers Linx, Oric 1, > > Jupiter Ace etc. > > I've been looking for a Jupiter Ace for over 10 years! Do you have any > leads on them? How many do you need? Perahps I have not been clear enough: I live in GB and I collect, sell, swap, trade British home computers. If you fell like you could go and have a look at my collection at: I have many duplicates and will gladly accept/receive help from any interested parties. enrico (I didn't realize that they were not American computers, > as I learned about them in Creative Computing like all the rest.) > > > enrico > > ttfn > srw -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 23 17:31:12 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) References: Message-ID: <33AEF930.74DE@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > This is STILL an American computer. You seem not to be interested in > > others like the Sopectrum, the BBC, Oric Atmos, Camputers Linx, Oric 1, > > Jupiter Ace etc. > > WHATEVER dude. Why don't you send me each of the computers you mentioned > above, and to prove to you I am interested, I WILL KEEP THEM! > > Sam The answer is negative but you can SEE them in my site... enrico > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 23 17:30:15 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Update Message-ID: Phew. Well I've pruned through my mail and made it to the bottom. To all of you who sent me personal e-mail over the last week - I'll get back to you in the next couple days. I'll also work on processing all the unsubs. On topic - this weekend I picked up some stuff: Need info on: Acorn monitor with strange connector, switch selects modes I, II, III 5 1/4" floppy drive for Atari ST (no brand) Just gloating: Apple IIgs with monitor and 5.25" drive (ROM 1) for $15 Stack of needed manuals at 0.39$ ea. (I'll post duplicates) Apple Disk III drive Franklin Ace 1000 An interesting one - I already have a 1000 and unforch. I think this one is too damaged to save (crushed case - cracked board). The thing is it has a strange disk controller which the Disk III (as in Apple II disk drive) was attached to. It also has a video board of some kind. No part numbers but I'll play around with it some more later. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From cerebral at michianatoday.com Mon Jun 23 17:48:45 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... Message-ID: <22484594801260@michianatoday.com> You are correct about the slowness of the 1541, and I was not saying the 64 was 100% perfect, but for the money, the 64 still gives more bang in the video and sound department. and recently, CMD (Creative Micro Designs) wrote a new OS called JiffyDOS. it was comaptible with the original ROM, but used better timing loops that increased the serial bus performance! you just replace the ROM in the motherboard, and the rom in the 1541 with jiffydos, and the results were fantastic, just by rewriting the firmware, the 1541 was now FASTER than a 486 running MS-Hoss with a 5.25 drive. but no matter what 8 bit cpu you use, it is amazing what you can do with 1 MHZ by proper software design. I also timed the performace with a stopwatch, and I loaded a large music editor from the same disk, 1541 drive, with and without jiffyDOS stock 1541 1541 with Jdos 1 minute 20 sec 10 SECONDS!!! pretty spiffy eh? From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 23 18:12:40 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: My current For Trade/Wanted List Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20546F27E@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> -------------------- Wanted: -------------------- Apple I * Altair 680 * Altair 8800a ("a" only) * Altair disk system * Compucolor II or 8051 Apple Lisa Exidy Sorcerer IBM 5100 KIM-1 RCA COSMAC (ELF/VIP) Commodore PET dual floppy system model 2040 Commodore SX-64 Portable (only if cheap or local) TRS-80 Model III (only if cheap or local) * Will trade Altair 8800b up/down/across for Apple I, or Altair equipment. Will also make substantial cash offers for these items and will reward leads. -------------------- For Trade: -------------------- North Star Horizon (wood case model) Apple ///+ Mattel Aquarius C64 in original color display box Kaypro II (wonky keyboard; FREE if you pick up, Seattle area) (Must sell/trade! Need space! Especially good deals available for LOCALS with reasonably interesting trades and/or cash offers, since that saves me so much time and effort with shipping!) Kai From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 23 17:55:44 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Friend Has Altos and Sanyo For Sale Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20546F25D@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> A friend of mine has the following systems available for sale (he's not a collector). Neither of us could really come up with a price, since these systems are a little out of my line. The Sanyo is a Z80 (not to be confused with the later MBC-550 which was an early 8088 MS-DOS clone). Both are in full operating condition. Altos 586 - 8086/512K - Xenix 3.0b - With 2 terminals (supports 8-9 users) - Hard drive - Floppy - Xenix Multiplan, etc. Sanyo MBC-1000 - Z80A - Built-in monitor - Single floppy - External 10MB HD - Keyboard - CP/M, WordStar, CalcStar, etc. email thadh@microsoft.com with offers (local preferred due to the size of this stuff) From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jun 23 18:35:22 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Message-ID: <970623193521_-1797545166@emout13.mail.aol.com> ive also got a pcjr, with a 128k module and a printer adaptor. isnt this thing supposed to run whatever cartridge you plug in? i noticed it resets when you insert one. my pcjr only boots to basic because ive been too lazy to make a dos 3.3 boot disk. i also have a joystick and serial/video/rf mod./300b modem in all their original boxes too along with a tech ref and basic guide. i have a cable/dongle for it that will let you plug in a standard cga monitor into the back. if anyone's interested, i could post the pinouts of the dongle so you can use cga. the last hamfest i went to have pcjr stuff for $1 a peice! that's where i got my missing psu from. david From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Jun 23 18:42:55 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Basis 108 (was Re: C64 CP/M carts) In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:01:32 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199706232342.QAA28878@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail writes: > On another note, has anyone ever seen (or have) a Basis-xxx? I know it > has a number in the name, but I can't remember it. It was an Apple ][ > clone that also ran CP/M I believe? Something like that. I'm sure > someone knows about it. I only knew one guy who ever had one, but I never > saw it. It was a friend in high school back in 1989. Yep, a Basis 108. They are something like the Apple ][+ with integrated language card, Microsoft Softcard and some sort of 80-column display on the motherboard, all housed in a big brown cast metal case with a detachable keyboard. Um...there are also integrated serial and parallel I/O, but I think there was something not-quite-compatible about the way they were decoded so one or the other or maybe both did not appear to be at the canonical slot addresses. They were made in Germany and imported into the US. I can't remember all the details, but I think Apple tried to restrict their import for a while (maybe due to ROM copyright issues?) and the distributor changed hands and/or locations a couple of times. For a while it was in Scotts Valley, CA, then I think went to somewhere in New England. Maybe I have it backwards. I bought one used (via the net) for ~$500 ca. 1991 because I missed my Apple ][+ (had left it with Mom, who just did not get the hang of Wordstar under CP/M and now has a Mac Plus, and yes I got my ][+ back). And the posted ad was for a dream system: Basis 108, PCPI Applicard, Vista 8" disk controller, Videx Ultraterm with a good monitor that could really show the lotsa-text you could get with one of those. All the stuff I had had in my ][+ and, more importantly, *all the stuff I had lusted after*. The only problems were due to some carelessness in packing, and the system was shipped from Connecticut to California. Mistakes submitted for your educational experience: The floppy drives are mounted by way of having brackets screwed to them which are then screwed to the base. The end result is that for each of two floppy drives there are these two brackets holding a floppy drive some distance above the base. Well, the shipper left them in, and UPS threw the package around enough that the brackets deformed and broke loose from the base. So the floppy drives with brackets could rattle around inside. (To be fair, I'm not sure I'd have caught this either, but I certainly won't ship things where two solid objects are connected quite like that -- not without dismantling them first.) He had also left the peripheral cards installed. Apple ][ peripheral cards just sit in their slots, there are no card guides or screws or anything like that. Well, guess what the floppy drives whacked into as they rattled around, not that I really think they would have stayed in place anyway. The boards weren't broken, but some of the ICs had been popped out and mashed. Between loose bits and spares that came with the system and other bits I had around I was able to get it working again, but still haven't replaced the floppy-drive brackets to my satisfaction. So it has a couple of gaping holes up front with half-height floppies showing where there should be full-height units. ... I don't have room to set the system up at present, so it is in storage. Except for its manuals, some of which are on loan to a friend of mine over the hill in Santa Cruz (who had one when he lived in Buffalo, NY and picked up another one at Weird Stuff a few years ago). If y'all have particular questions about this send e-mail and I will ask for them back and try to find the other bits in storage. It is a fairly thorough set of documentation, including user group newsletters, and would probably shed a little light on things I can't remember about it and Basis and the moves in distributorship and so forth. One other thing I remember about this system is that the previous owner had bought a set of Apple ROMs, then copied them *and* the Basis ROMs into 2732?s with a switch on the back to select one bank or the other. So he could boot with Basis or Apple personalities depending on what he needed to be compatible with. There were some things that depended on each, but I can't remember specifics. I remember seeing slicks somewhere in there for another Basis system that had two half-height 8" floppy drives in a similar case (different cutout up front for the floppies), and have the impression that that was a pure CP/M machine. Never saw one up close, though. Anyone know anything about that? -Frank McConnell From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 23 22:12:54 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: question concerning SWTP system References: <199706232342.QAA28878@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <33AF3B36.1C77@unix.aardvarkol.com> I'm looking at picking up a 6809 based system by SWTP. It has a couple of RAM cards, a serial card, parallel card, and the CPU card, all on the SS-50 bus, and it has OS-9 ROMS in it. The seller doesn't know if it's functional or not. Is there anyone familiar with these machines? Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From danjo at xnet.com Mon Jun 23 19:14:01 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: <24B2F4A36CCE@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > Brett wrote: > > As I remember the 4004 was actually Intels first micro-cpu and I don't > ^^^^ > > know of any commercial product that used them - but I don't know > > everything. Any product types and names? > > Yes! I do! I do! (Hand raised, flailing about) > When I worked for John Fluke Mfg. in the early eighties, I used to > repair their 6010 & 6012 audio frequency synthesizers. These used > one 4004 processors for EVERYTHING; keyboard control, display > generation (one led segment at a time), synthesizer latch loading, > level control etc. > > It was one BUSY little chip. Duh! I knew that - I really did! Now for a VERY serious question - You - ah - still have any ties with Fluke???? I would be your friend for LIFE if you could get me a 1722 - huh huh???? I would also want the Hard Drive option - (heck I am wishing!) And the Assembler disk and the Fortran disk and the Basic disk! Nicest little box I ever played with. Nobody else here probably knows what this is but I would also like to get my hands on a Numeridex 7000. Second nicest little box I ever played with. Both of these where industrial strength machines. The quantities sold for both where relatively small. Also they were HIGH priced. Anybody seen - got - know of them? BC From kyrrin at wizards.net Mon Jun 23 19:22:54 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Need source for... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970623172254.00f823a0@mail.wizards.net> In the process of getting ready to upgrade my RQD11 QBus/SCSI adapter to near-current level, I discovered that I need a source for a hard-to-get PROM. Specifically, one of two parts should do it. Signetics 82HS189 AMD AM27S281A I've already checked with the manufacturers and a couple of local distributors. Yes, I'll be looking for these on my upcoming scrounging trip, but it would be a Really Cool Thing if someone could point me at a source for them. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 23 19:24:43 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: PLEASE READ - suggestions to reduce list traffic Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20546F307@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I'd like to suggest that we all keep in mind the following tenets to help reduce the amount of superfluous traffic on this discussion list: - If your reply is to one individual, please send directly to them (you'll have to override your email program's default Reply address). - Please direct responses to solicitations such as group purchases, etc. directly to the solicitor only. thanks! Kai From spc at armigeron.com Mon Jun 23 19:26:25 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706230828.7246@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 23, 97 09:28:43 am Message-ID: <199706240026.UAA18752@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great A.R. Duell once stated: > > > If what you described above is correct, then did it work? If so, it > > Yes, it worked. It still works 100% AFAIK > > > wasn't such a bad design after all, was it? If not, then yeah, the design > > A bad design can still work. Case in point: the IBM PC. And forgoing the choice of CPU [1], there were still hardware problems with it (IRQ 7 was lost due to the signal not being buffered, and then there's the whole problem with not sharing IRQs to begin with ... ) -spc (Still amazed that the PC is the only computer (I know of) that can't share IRQs ... ) [1] Given the time frame, contraints, politics and projected life expentancy of Project Chess, the choice of an 8088 isn't THAT bad. Not going with CP/M on the other hand ... From spc at armigeron.com Mon Jun 23 19:39:02 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Jr. Dragons? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970623111629.0069c7c0@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> from "James Carter" at Jun 23, 97 11:17:52 am Message-ID: <199706240039.UAA18797@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great James Carter once stated: > > It's been years since I fiddled with a PCjr. It has a self test, to > activate press Control-Alternate-Insert. Can't remember the specifics of > the self test though. > It lets you test all the major components (video, memory, keyboard, disk) of the PCjr. Not much to it really. -spc (Fun machine - and the Football game you could get for it was killer ... ) From spc at armigeron.com Mon Jun 23 19:42:48 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 23, 97 09:27:41 am Message-ID: <199706240042.UAA18820@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Sam Ismail once stated: > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > > > > That was a limitation introduced with the //e. The 80 column board had > > > its own special slot that took over slot 3 if you had it populated. > > > However, nothing was stopping you from putting another 80-column board > > > (such as a Videx) in another slot and using that, although I can't think > > > for the life of me why you'd need two 80-column cards. > > > > > Debugging. You can run your program on one screen, and have debugging > > output/debugger output on the second screen. I did that once on a PS/2 when > > I was writing code to manage the 8514 display. It was very nice to see not > > only the output, but have the debugger not munging the display. > > You couldn't do that on an Apple. It only had one video output. Unless > the 80-col card in question had a seperate video output. And then you'd > have to go back to that clever programming thing. > Ah. Never got into Apples myself (the only Apple computer I have is the Newton, which just died on me 8-( -spc (Well, it still works, just that the presure sensitive screen is no longer sensitive it seems ... ) From manney at nwohio.com Mon Jun 23 19:19:31 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: My current For Trade/Wanted List Message-ID: <199706240110.SAA06905@mx5.u.washington.edu> I have an SX-64. don't lnow if it works, without KB cord (has KB, though.) Manney From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 23 20:48:19 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:05 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr References: <970623193521_-1797545166@emout13.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33AF2763.5CC8@rain.org> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > standard cga monitor into the back. if anyone's interested, i could post the > pinouts of the dongle so you can use cga. the last hamfest i went to have As I recall, the PC Jr. does not use CGA but rather EGA. Something in the back of my mind says that the REAL PC Jr. monitor is not quite EGA but definetely better than CGA. From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 23 20:51:44 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) References: Message-ID: <33AF2830.3F32@rain.org> Brett wrote: > > Nobody else here probably knows what this is but I would also like to get > my hands on a Numeridex 7000. Second nicest little box I ever played with. > Numeridex mainly provided NC Controllers and supplies as I recall. As such, you might start asking someone who owns a machine shop. Hmmm, if Numeridex is still in business, you might even ask them who has one in your area! From spc at armigeron.com Mon Jun 23 20:59:33 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <33AF2763.5CC8@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 23, 97 06:48:19 pm Message-ID: <199706240159.VAA19044@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Marvin once stated: > > SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > > > standard cga monitor into the back. if anyone's interested, i could post the > > pinouts of the dongle so you can use cga. the last hamfest i went to have > > As I recall, the PC Jr. does not use CGA but rather EGA. Something in > the back of my mind says that the REAL PC Jr. monitor is not quite EGA > but definetely better than CGA. It supports two modes that CGA doesn't: 320x200 16 color and 640x200 4 color, in addition to the other CGA modes. The 320x200 16 mode isn't quite EGA in layout though - the palette registers only support 2 bits of red, 2 of green and 2 of blue, and the layout of the pixels follows (more or less) the CGA standard than the EGA bitplanes. Each byte held two pixels (four bits per pixel) and the memory layout was: 0x0000: 2000 bytes of screen information, each line 40 bytes, lines evenly divisible by 0 0x2000: 2000 bytes of screen information, each line 40 bytes, line % 4 == 1 0x4000: 2000 bytes of screen information, each line 40 bytes, line % 4 == 2 0x6000: 2000 bytes of screen information, each line 40 bytes, line % 4 == 3 The 620x200 4 color mode was similarly laid (layed?) out, only there were four pixels per byte (2 bits per pixel). -spc (Although with proper programming, the CGA could support 160x100 16 colors (or was it 160x200?)) From william at ans.net Mon Jun 23 21:13:26 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <9706232105.AA11236@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <199706240213.AA06607@interlock.ans.net> > Ah - if you think of 74LS68x and 14L4's as "current" with the introduction > of the Apple II, then that helps (to some extent) explain why you > don't like Wozniak's designs. Neither of these devices were even > gleams in anybody's eyes in 1977! The closest you'll come to programmable > logic in 1977 are bipolar PROM's. (Which Woz was no stranger to - > just take a look at the Disk ][ controller!) Signetic (I think it was them) had some PAL like devices back in the mid-1970s. I do not think they were as flexible as PALs, but they did combine the best of the PROM and glue worlds for decoding schemes. William Donzelli william@ans.net From danjo at xnet.com Mon Jun 23 21:18:15 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: <33AF2830.3F32@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Brett wrote: > > Nobody else here probably knows what this is but I would also like to get > > my hands on a Numeridex 7000. Second nicest little box I ever played with. > > Numeridex mainly provided NC Controllers and supplies as I recall. As > such, you might start asking someone who owns a machine shop. Hmmm, if > Numeridex is still in business, you might even ask them who has one in > your area! You've done too much Marvin 8-) Since I just thought of this today and your message - made me look 8-) Numeridex, Inc. 241 Holbrook Dr. Wheeling, IL 60090 U.S.A. Al Hoyos 800-323-7737, FAX: 847-541-8392 I will be calling them tomorrow - Why do I post this here? in the mid-80's they were the single largest vendor of - paper and mylar punch tape 8-) How do I know - I used to work for them. They sold off the Numeri-Power CNC Programming *division* - I think to some Swiss company that needed a programming system for thier wire EDM machines. I was the maintenance department for the earlier software. I will check and see if they still sell a paper tape punch/reader and tape - BEST backup device ever made (except against fire 8-) The reason I liked the 7000 so much was the display. It used a - I want to say NEC 7202 display chip - might be wrong tho. It allowed vector graphics and text to share the same screen. You could tell it how much text and then anything above that was graphics. It took basically plotting commands to do the graphics. Never did understand why that didn't catch on! Also it ran CP/M as well as thier *own* operating system. All kind of neat stuff. Now how about a Fluke 1722????? BC From danjo at xnet.com Mon Jun 23 21:26:48 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <199706240213.AA06607@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > Ah - if you think of 74LS68x and 14L4's as "current" with the introduction > > of the Apple II, then that helps (to some extent) explain why you > > don't like Wozniak's designs. Neither of these devices were even > > gleams in anybody's eyes in 1977! The closest you'll come to programmable > > logic in 1977 are bipolar PROM's. (Which Woz was no stranger to - > > just take a look at the Disk ][ controller!) > > Signetic (I think it was them) had some PAL like devices back in the > mid-1970s. I do not think they were as flexible as PALs, but they did > combine the best of the PROM and glue worlds for decoding schemes. Well, I don't know - you could have used the 7485 and dip switches/jumpers. 4 chips for 16-bit with one bit/word resolution for I/O. You could have used 3 chips and ended up with a *standard* 16 register address space for an 6522 or such. I am sure they were available in 1973. (But they wouldn't have been - ah - inexpensive. BC From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 23 21:46:18 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Historical Research References: Message-ID: <33AF34FA.91C@rain.org> One of the things *I* think would be really useful for collectors is to know the number of computers manufactured, both total and by year. The only problem is in getting this information; anyone have any ideas, insights, or better yet, connections to past people who would know or be able to get this information from companies that have ceased business? Thanks. From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 23 21:55:05 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: H8 Computer References: <199706231900.MAA24212@mx2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33AF3709.2C6B@rain.org> PG Manney wrote: > > > >What is a Heath H8 worth? > > I generally see H89's go for $25 US at hamfests. *I* wouldn't tie up $100 > unless it was lovely and I really wanted one. > I have several H89 computers and they were all given to me. However the H8 is a different matter, and this is the first one *I* have seen ... or perhaps recognized :). At any rate, I called the guy and told him I would take it and plan on picking it up tomorrow evening. The thing I find most interesting is that he is the one that built this machine, and all the stuff including docs are still with it. THAT caught my interest! From marcw at lightside.com Mon Jun 23 19:00:52 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr (some parts info you y'all) Message-ID: <199706240258.TAA02092@covina.lightside.com> Something is odd here. There was some 25 PCjr messages in my box. Somehow the discussion didn't get to me 'til it was underway. I did go through them but I don't know anything. :) Anyway, assuming PC Enterprises still carries this stuff, you might want to check with them. The catalogue also doubles as an information source since they give a few paragraphs on various tech stuff. For instance what happens when your system board malfunctions, etc. Here's some stuff from their PCjr catalogue that may be of interest. There's a lot so this is just a few. PCjr System Board #78739 $98 Power Supply Transformer (brick) #78712 $44 PCjr Power Supply Card (original) #78707 $49.95 PCjr Power Supply Card (heavy duty) #78729 $69.95 64K Memory & Display Expansion #78709 $50 Cartridge BASIC #78722 $119 Configuration Plus Cartridge #18026 $29.95 Allows for using BASIC/BASICA if you don't have Cartridge BASIC Compatibility Cartridge #18032 $39.95 Allows for running "modern" DOS apps that normally have problems with the PCjr BIOS Combo Cartridge V3.0 #18034 $89.95 Combination of four different cartridges (available separatly): Compatibility, Quicksilver (memory speedup), Keyboard Buffer, jrVideo (video speedup). jrExcellerator Speed-up Board #14802 $99 Megaboard Sidecard #14031 $199 Adds 1MB to anything else you already have. Load High Sidecar #97509 $35 Brings 640K system to 736K There's a lot more (drives, video, etc.). Also info and memory expansion for Rapport, Racore, and Quadram users. This catalogue is from 1995 and no doubt they don't have everything anymore (if their lack of Tandy parts is any indication). PC Enterprises is the reason I have EMS and SCSI on my Tandy 1000 HX but most of the stuff they used to have is no more. 1-800-922-7257 or 908-280-0025. Getting help is also a problem. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org IRC Nick: Senshi Channel: #dos #IrcHelp http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html -- DOS Internet Tools From gram at cnct.com Mon Jun 23 22:05:45 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <33AF2763.5CC8@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > standard cga monitor into the back. if anyone's interested, i could post the > > pinouts of the dongle so you can use cga. the last hamfest i went to have > As I recall, the PC Jr. does not use CGA but rather EGA. Something in > the back of my mind says that the REAL PC Jr. monitor is not quite EGA > but definetely better than CGA. The PCjr hooked up to a regular CGA monitor, it just used it better than a regular PC CGA adapter did. It had some extra modes that gave better resolution or more color (one or the other, not both). The Tandy 1000 series also had these enhancements, plus had the added sound capability (and BASIC play commands) of the PCjr. Unfortunately, the Tandy 1000 early models hardwired a foolishly incompatible IRQ for the hard drive. Well, it _was_ even with that easier and cheaper to expand than the PCjr. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jun 23 22:06:44 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) Message-ID: <01IKFCBOYLKY9X41TX@cc.usu.edu> > The reason I liked the 7000 so much was the display. It used a - I want > to say NEC 7202 display chip - might be wrong tho. It allowed vector > graphics and text to share the same screen. You could tell it how much > text and then anything above that was graphics. It took basically plotting > commands to do the graphics. Never did understand why that didn't catch > on! That would be the NEC 7220. It was also used in the DEC Rainbow graphics option; I've not seen a DECmate II graphices option, but I suspect it was used there as well. A friend of mine built a video card for an Apple ][ using the 7220. We could do 1024 x 780, IIRC. He was experimenting with it and a touch screen device (a flat glas plate to go over the monitor with transducers along two edges; it put a high-frequency vibration on the glass then listened for echoes) as a programmable user interface. We were using Microsoft F80 on the Softcard connected to 8" DSDD diskettes. When does it start being an Apple ][ and start being a CP/M machine? Oh yeah; we used a plotting library from a company called Tesseract. Anyone else used it? Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jun 23 22:08:11 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Message-ID: <01IKFCGX0K609X41TX@cc.usu.edu> > -spc (Although with proper programming, the CGA could support 160x100 > 16 colors (or was it 160x200?)) 160x100. You program the 6845 to display two scanlines per character then use the half-on/half-off blocks to control the pixels. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jun 23 22:36:19 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Osborne In-Reply-To: References: <24B2F4A36CCE@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <26ED0A917CEF@ifrsys.com> Hi Guys: I have just aquired an Orborne-I, built on 10/17/82. The thing seems to be complete, but no line cord. Cosmetically, she's in fair shape, but been around the block a few times: scuffs, velcro stuck to the case, etc. The only major thing wrong is that one of those cheesy plastic latches that holds the cover / keyboard in place is broken off. I fired her up, but without a boot disk, I could not tell if it is 100% functional or not. The sign on screen comes up on the WHITE crt, informs me that it has firmware ver 1.44, and requests I hit RETURN to boot up. Since I mostly specialize in SS-50 and some obscure Commodore-related hardware, this is a bit outside my scope of interest (but I know a true classic when I see one). If anyone is interested in this truly historic (if a bit worn) piece of cyberbilia, please contact me via e-mail. All I'm asking for it is what I paid for it (about $10) plus shipping. Thanks. Jeff jeff.kaneko@ifrsys.com From william at ans.net Mon Jun 23 22:33:30 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Historical Research In-Reply-To: <33AF34FA.91C@rain.org> Message-ID: <199706240333.AA09031@interlock.ans.net> > One of the things *I* think would be really useful for collectors is to > know the number of computers manufactured, both total and by year. The > only problem is in getting this information; anyone have any ideas, > insights, or better yet, connections to past people who would know or be > able to get this information from companies that have ceased business? I run into all sorts of computer "old timers" at hamfests, and some do have good stories to tell. That is probably the best way to get information, as the original sources are most likely gone (even if the parent companies still exist). This problem is not unique to computers - those who study radio and radar technology run into the same problems. Serial numbers DO lie, but they are often the only clues left. One source of serial numbers (other than those on the machines) is maintenance documents - especially those concerning ECOs. Often they have notes to the techinicians concerning which machines (by ranges of serials) get the treatments. I did get a good book from an NYC sidewalk vendor the other day - *Innovating for Failure, Government Policy and the Early British Computer Industry* by John Hendry. Somewhere he managed to dig up all sorts of information concerning British and U.S. mainframes in the 1960s, including a census (yes, I know all of the micro lovers on the list are just DYING to know how many IBM 360/30s were around in 1966!). Unfortuneately, he does not give a source. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dynasoar at mindspring.com Tue Jun 24 17:36:22 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (dynasoar) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All this talk about the PCJr is really inspiring....I want to get mine out of the closet and fire it up! Could someone post a schematic of the power supply kludge with the 17v. center-tapped transformer? Also how would I go about replacing the plug in daughtercard memory board, which was trashed when I got the machine? Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 23 23:40:26 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Historical Research References: <199706240333.AA09031@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <33AF4FBA.5F10@rain.org> William Donzelli wrote: > > > One of the things *I* think would be really useful for collectors is to > > know the number of computers manufactured, both total and by year. The > > only problem is in getting this information; anyone have any ideas, > > Serial numbers DO lie, but they are often the only clues left. One source > of serial numbers (other than those on the machines) is maintenance > documents - especially those concerning ECOs. Often they have notes to > the techinicians concerning which machines (by ranges of serials) get the > treatments. > I guess another thing that would be useful would be the initial starting point of the serial numbers for each computer. I find by looking at the date code on the ICs, I can get *some* idea of when a machine was actually built. Of course, that assumes that the chips were used shortly after they were made, and I generally look at a variety of chips to find the latest date code. I hadn't thought of ECO's; that sounds like a good idea. Thanks! From maynard at jmg.com Mon Jun 23 23:42:34 1997 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > [snip] > > > > How do I go about cleaning this without destroying the case? Does > > anyone know of some good solvents or cleaners for plastic? > > Get yourself a stiff-bristled plastic brush and a good cleaner like > perhaps Formula 405. Again, I use an organic cleaner called L.O.C. (an > Amway product). Flood the case with the cleaner and brush it with the > brush. It may not take off all the goop, but it will do a good job > (depending on your cleaner, mine works fantastic). > My girlfriend is a professional sculptress, I don't know why I didn't ask her to begin with. She recommended plain amonia, which I was sceptical of. I wanted to use Formula 405 basically because you had recommended it. Well, the amonia worked great and the case looks nearly brand new - it sure took several hours though. ;-) Never doubt a woman competent with Dremel tools - for many reasons.... > > Can I pull a keytop off the keyboard without destroying the key? > > If it's really bad I guess I could change keyboards - but I'd really like > > to attempt to get this guy working, as it was the original. > > Spray your cleaner on the keyboard and scrub with the brush. It'll work > very well. When you're done, lift each key off (yes you can, they come > right off and you pop them right back on) and clean each individual one > around the sides as needed, but the brushing should have done the trick. > Clean all the hair, fuzzballs, food and other misceallny from the bottom > of the keys. Replace all the keycaps. Of course rememberto note down > where they all go. I was able to clean between the keys with a few tiny paint brushes. However, as nice as it looks, it seams as though it's toast. A few keys stick, several send multiple key bursts, and it doesn't seem as though the keys are removeable - at least not like as I remember the old TRS-80 Model 1 keyboard. You could remove the keys and actually clean the contacts with alchohol. Is this possible, or am I just going to be able to get dust bunnies between the keys? [snip] Thanks for your insight! J. Maynard Gelinas From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jun 23 20:09:32 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Banning Culture (was: Re: Why?) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970623181342.3d0f68d8@mail.crl.com> At 07:59 PM 6/21/97 +0000, you wrote: >Is "culture" banned from this site then? (We are getting there in the >end....it's a CULTURE clash, is it?) Yes! No more culture! Only trashy romance novels, Beverly Hills 90210/Melrose Place, and the Bee-Gees should be discussed here! And that's Culture *Club*! (Seequa, seequa, seequa, seequa, seequa, seequa chameleooooon...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 19:04:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231610.LAA14021@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Bill Girnius wrote: > Picked up one of these the other day, no power supply, anyone know what > this monster needs for the 3 pin powersupply connection? {pinouts} There's been a huge boring discussion going on forever on the list. I know of about 2 or 3 of these sitting in thrift shops right now. Send me e-mail and I'll go pick one up for you, and you can just reimburse me for the cost+shipping. Same goes for ayone else interested. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon Jun 23 23:50:54 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Computer Ind. Books References: <199706230702.AAA17867@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33AF522E.23F3@goldrush.com> >From: "e.tedeschi" >Subject: bibliography >What do you think of this bibliography? Have I missed any important book >on the subject? Please help me in making this a useful refence for >everybody to use, if you care. Thank you There was also one by COMPUTE! Books, the (Small?) Computer Wars I think the author's name is Michael Tomzyk. I have yet to find it (or many that you mentioned) Though I found Steven Levy's Hackers very entertaining! One interesting book my wife came across in a thrift store is: "The Compleat Computer" a compilation edited by Dennie Van Tassel. It was printed in 1976 and has alot of press clippings, cartoons, articles and anecdotes of the then blossoming microcomputer age. One nice bit is the transcript of the session between Eliza (the psychiatrist program) and Parry (the paranoid program). Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Tue Jun 24 00:04:31 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 92 References: <199706230702.AAA17867@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33AF555F.6F82@goldrush.com> Subject: Re: Classsic Computing Newsgroup revisited Message-ID: <199706222028.4491@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> >> I'm against new newsgroups being created, especially when the topics >> are quite technical and already well-handled by existing newsgroups. >> For example, people wanting Apple II help can go to comp.sys.apple2, >> users of various CP/M systems hang around comp.os.cpm, PDP-11 >> users have vmsnet.pdp-11, etc. >Agreed. Off-hand I can't think of a single classic computer which is not >covered by at least one existing newsgroup. If you don't know which group >to post to, you'll find that most of them are quite friendly to >just-off-topic questions. If you find an obscure Z80 machine that didn't >ever run CP/M, I'm quite sure that a post to comp.os.cpm would get either >some help or a pointer to the appropriate newsgroup. I'd be _very_ >supprised if it got a flame. Let's get this straight: A) alt.technology.obsolete does not need to be created, it has been on the net for at least as long as I have (6+ months) B) The newsgroup is currently dead (except for the occasional spamming post.) C) having specific newsgroups is ok, but what if you want the open discussion of computers like we have here? I kinda get irked seeing Spectrum posts in comp.sys.cbm. But wouldn't mind on a mixed group, because I am in that mode when I am reading it. (sound logical?) So, again, the newsgroup (alt.technology.obsolete) exists now and has been in existence for quite a while and I suggest we put this good opportunity (and name) to use. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Tue Jun 24 00:53:54 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Commodore P-500 References: <199706230702.AAA17867@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33AF60F2.387F@goldrush.com> >From: steve >Subject: Re: PET > Hi you lot, glad the group is in a positive mood!!! > Ok can you help ? a few months ago I found a Commodore P500 seriel NO. WG00837 ????? Well if you collect Commodres, you are a very fortunate person! > What the heck is it???? > Its made in W.Germany > Any Idea?? > Steve All I can do is give you the U.S. perspective on this machine, since I haven't heard any stories on the European distribution of P-500s. A few years back I picked up one (P-500) as well, with people telling me it was a B-128, I didn't look at the back and was surely perplexed when I needed to hook it to my 1702 and it came up in 40 column color when I turned it on, so I did some research and asked around a few places (on Q-Link, and a query to the Chicago B-128 users group). I received two or three stories that were pretty much the same. Back in 1982 Commodore re-vamped it's entire product line in order to replace the aging PETs and to eventually phase out the then looking more limited VIC-20. The line consisted of the Commodore 64 and Ulitmax, for games/home/education use and the B-128 and P-500 for education/business and as an upgrade option for people who purchased alot of PET (IEEE-488) equipment. In its rush (given the home computer wars), Commodore sent a bunch of demo units of the B-128 and P-500 to dealers (yeah, I know that sounds strange, it was a different Commodore back then) these units were not to be sold as they still needed to get their FCC certification (for low radio interference). Well some of these dealers were offered quick cash for the demo units (even though they had no manuals or anything) and of course, they jumped at the chance. The FCC heard about these sales of uncertified equipment and told Commodore to immediately cease any sales of them and face stiff penalties. Commodore promptly recalled them (at least the ones they could get). Well they finally certified the B-128 but I guess being that the Commodore 64 was so popular they abandoned the P-500 entirely and it is said they destroyed all reamining P-500s. At the time I talked to the CB128UG (1990?) they said I was the third person in the world ever to report having one, and their estimation was that there are ten in existence. (they would have known since they were lent ALL documantation on the B-128 series from Commodore when they gave up that B-series computers). Ok the P-500 has a 6502 type processor (you know, like the 64) and 128k of RAM, it has a SID sound chip (also on the 64 and B-128), a true RS-232 port, cartridge port (I know of no carts avalable for the B series) and IEEE-488 port. But unlike the B-128 it sports a 40 column VIC-II chip, two joystick ports and ROM coding that supports the datasette drive (the B-128 also has a connector but no programming to use it). Both computers could accept an optional 8088 co-processor board and make it capapble of running CP/M 86. The RS-232 port has one pin designated (on both B-128 &P-500) for a high-speed networking system that never went into development (but was put in hardware, just in case) the guy from CB128UG was pretty impressed with the stats on it which I forgot. So to sum it up, the P-500 is essentially the Color PET or P-128 that Commodore had talked about. Kinda a cross between the SuperPET/B-128 (128k, IEEE-488, true RS-232, Co-Processor), and a 64 (SID, VIC-II, Joysticks, color). Jim Butterfield made a memory map for the B-128 and has some programming examples for the B-128 in Transactor issues which might get you some information, but there are differences. My unit has a RAM problem and I haven't been able to explore it too much, also the ROMs are pretty much porototype and it runs like molassas, so I dunno how much good that would do me when I eventually fix it... If you do find out ANYTHING more (or even have a manual on it) I would surely be interested in what you find out! Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Tue Jun 24 01:42:57 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Larry's List References: <199706230702.AAA17867@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33AF6C72.28A4@goldrush.com> Well after getting my Educator 64 working (yipee!) and realizing I have alot of the Commodores I kinda wanted to collect from years back I decided to write out a quick list (a>this is from memory so there probably is stuff missing and b>it in no way shows how many repeats of items I have (like 3 VIC-20s, umpteen datasettes, etc.) c>I have NO interested in selling any of it.) Hope you find it interesting. (=)) Larry's Commodore Collection: Calculators: Minuteman 6 Minuteman 6x Custom Greenline Rechargable (greenline?) Model 784D PET Series Original PET with original ROMs and 32k ExpandaPET board PET 2001 Series w/Upgrade ROMs 32k PET 2001 Series w/4.0 ROMS & MTU VM Graphics Board CBM 2001 Series 32k PET 4000 Series w/32k CBM 8032 SuperPET Model SP9000 PET/IEEE-488 Peripherals/Firmware RAM/ROM EPROM emulator Centronics Printer Interface 4040 Dual Disk Drive 2031LP Single Disk Drive 8023 Wide Carriage Dot-Matrix Printer Original 'modified' Sanyo cassete deck C2N Datasette in black case C2N Datasette in cream case w/counter Toolkit ROMs (upgrade and 4.0 versions) VIC-20 Series VIC-20 (DIN power Supply) VIC-20 Peripherals/Firmware Commodore Joystick Commodore Paddle Controllers Commodore C2N/1530 low-profile datasettes Commodore VIC-1541 Single Disk Drive Cardco Cartridge expansion unit Koala Pad MSD 24k RAM cartridge Commodore 8k RAM cartridge Commodore 3k+SuperExpander Cartridge HES HESMON utility cartridge Omega Race Tooth Invaders Defender Choplifter Radar Ratrace Donkey Kong Cosmic Cruncher C64/B-128 Series Commodore 64 (8-Pin Video) Commodore 64 w/stereo SID modification Commodore SX-64 portable Commodore P-500 Educator 64 (Commodore 64 in PET/CBM 4000/8000 style case) 64/B-128 Series Peripherals/Firmware Commodore 1702 Color Monitor Commodore 1541 Disk Drive Star Micronis NX1000C Dot Matrix Printer Citizen iDP560CD 2 3/4" wide Dot Matrix Printer Kinney Video Digitizer Alien Group Alien Voicebox Voice Synthesiser Currah Technologies Voicemaster 64 Wico Trackball controller Total Telecommunications 300 Baud Modem Inkwell Tech. Lightpen Lemans Jumpman Jr. SuperGraphics Jr. HESMon 64 Gridrunner Astroblitz Commodore 264 series: Commodore 16 Commodore Plus/4 Commodore Plus/4 w/standard 64 PS connector 264 Peripherals/Firmware Atari style joystick adapter Datasette plug adapter +4/16 joystick Jack Attack Plus Calc Plus Script Commodore 128/128D series Commodore 64C Commodore 128 Commodore 128D (missing keyboard) Commodore 128 Series Peripherals Commodore 1670 1200 Baud Modem Commodore Modem 300 - 300 Baud Modem Commodore 1902 Color Monitor Commodore 1541C Disk Drive Commodore 1541-II Disk Drive Commodore 1571 Disk Drive Commodore 1581 3.5" Micro Floppy Disk Drive Commodore 1764 RAM Expansion Unit Commodore 1351 Mouse CMD RAMLink Ram Expansion Unit CMD HD series Hard Drive Unit Aprotek 2400 Baud Modem SuperSnapshot 5 Utility Cartridge Lotsa Joysticks... ;) Still Looking for: 8050 Dual Disk Drive 8250 Dual Disk Drive SFD-1001 Single Floppy Drive 8010 Modem (acoustic coupler) 4010 Voice Response Unit (speech synthesiser) CBM 9060/9090 Hard Disk Unit B-128/B-256 Series Computer Computereyes for Commodore 64 Commodore comaptible EPROM programmer Commodore 65 Commodore LCD (I wish!) Serial<->IEEE-488 interfaces -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jun 24 00:46:39 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <9705238670.AA867090681@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970623224639.00d828a8@agora.rdrop.com> At 11:23 AM 6/23/97 BST, you wrote: >I have an IBM System/23 (aka Datamaster) at home. It has system board, >mono monitor, twin 8-inch floppies and PC-style keyboard in one box, and >a printer hung off the back. It has an 8085 processor, 64k RAM and 112K >ROM. The expansion slots are suspiciously IBM PC like... > < snip > > >Anyone else out there have one of these? Know any more about it? Well, I've got one with a pretty complete (at first glance) set of manuals and software, but I've not had a great deal of time to work with it as yet. Is there something particular you wanted to know that I might be able to (briefly) look up? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jun 24 01:51:56 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Banning Culture (was: Re: Why?) References: <1.5.4.16.19970623181342.3d0f68d8@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: <33AF6E8C.3ED3@ndirect.co.uk> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 07:59 PM 6/21/97 +0000, you wrote: > >Is "culture" banned from this site then? (We are getting there in the > >end....it's a CULTURE clash, is it?) > > Yes! No more culture! Only trashy romance novels, Beverly Hills > 90210/Melrose Place, and the Bee-Gees should be discussed here! And that's > Culture *Club*! (Seequa, seequa, seequa, seequa, seequa, seequa > chameleooooon...) > This *is* culture! Trash culture but *still* culture. enrico From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jun 24 02:16:20 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <33AF7444.7B1F@ndirect.co.uk> Dear Friends, There is no desire from my part to start another flame war (but a discussion, yes) but in answer to the many that have expressed (here or privately) their total disinterest for the *meaning* the *history* and the *culture* behind our collections may I ask them to consider what their machines would mean without somebody behind (or rather in front) of them. Machines are just pieces of metal and plastic. They mean something because they are related to the minds, fingers, emotions, life, behaviours and destinies of the people behind them. YOU love so much that piece of hadware for what it meant to you (or to somebody else you are related with), to your life, to your history of for it meant to the history of mankind. So I am asking *you*, lover of the hardware to reconsider your thoughts and ask yourself what would your collection mean without all of the above. I, for one, will be glad to learn that you had second toughts about this. In either cases it could be useful to read here your motivations. Thanks -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 24 02:15:24 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Commodore P-500 In-Reply-To: <33AF60F2.387F@goldrush.com> References: <199706230702.AAA17867@lists2.u.washington.edu> <33AF60F2.387F@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <33af724a.922444@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:53:54 -0800, you wrote: %All I can do is give you the U.S. perspective on this machine, since I %haven't heard any stories on the European distribution of P-500s. I've seen described in French computer magazines (e.g. Microsystems in their banc d'essais) a number of post-PET computers. The P500 was one of them. There was also a P700. This was circa 1984-85. If memory serves, they are like the original PETs except for a more aerodynamic casing and much better internal circuitry and also built-in floppy drives. I think there was even one version with an 8088 for youknowwhat compatibility. I went to an electronics component shop in Lyon once and they used one such machine for inventory/receipt/payment control. Everything ran on the two floppy drives. The problem with these machines, I think, was that they were essentially 6502-based business machines and lost out to the IBM PC's 8/16-bit architecture. Ben From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 24 08:47:38 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: SMPS's (was PC-jr) In-Reply-To: <199706232120.RAA05621@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 5:20 pm Message-ID: <199706240747.21429@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> [Zenith Monitor] > Using LED as a reference? That is poor idea to do that! It should > have put the sense line on that heavy current line to work. I think you misunderstood me. It does sample the output of the PSU. But it compares it to the 2V-ish across the power-on LED rather than using a zener or something similar. [Boschert 2-stage] > > 1) Rectify/double the AC mains input to give 340V DC > > 2) Feed that into a non-isolated 'flyback' converter to step it down to > > 150V. > hi frenquency ac or dc at that point? DC. It's smoothed by a smallish capacitor. [...] > > 1) The chopper (2) shorts. The output of that stage now leaps to 340V > > (since there's a DC path through the shorted transistor and the inductor) > > Ah! Not a transformer just a giant inductor driven by that chopper? Absolutely... > :) that would be a biggest OUCHIE! Why not jerryjig a design to > clamp down based on voltage level when exceeding 150v at this point > when chopper went so it will blow the fuse instead? I'm not sure you could. The voltage at that point rises as the PSU is loaded (to compensate for losses in the transformer and oscillator). I suspect the crowbar would still kill the oscillator transistors and cause a lot of other damage before the overvoltage trip did a darn thing. > > > 2) The oscillator (3) continues running, so the 5V line leaps to about 12V > > 3) The crowbar trips, shorting the output to ground > > 4) The overcurrent trip tries to work, but as the chopper (2) is shorted, > > it doesn't do a darn thing. > > Other option, Why not use this output of this crowbar to trip other > clamper at the 340vdc output to blow the fuse instantly? > You want to blow the fuse first before the last 2 trans dies > resulting in expensive heap of smelly stuff. :) That would have meant an extra optoisolator at least. And would you trust a thyristor to short a 340V line at essentially unlimited current? > Jason D. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 24 08:53:43 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <33AF2763.5CC8@rain.org>; from "Marvin" at Jun 23, 97 6:48 pm Message-ID: <199706240753.21570@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > As I recall, the PC Jr. does not use CGA but rather EGA. Something in > the back of my mind says that the REAL PC Jr. monitor is not quite EGA > but definetely better than CGA. It's enhanced CGA. The IBM monitor _was_ the 5153 CGA monitor with an adapter cable (or at least it was when my Techref was printed - it gives the wirelist of the adapter and the schematics of the 5153). The video circuitry in the PC-jr can output a few more modes that a CGA card can't (320*200 in 16 colours, etc), but the monitor is a normal CGA one. > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 24 08:55:57 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <199706240213.AA06607@interlock.ans.net>; from "William Donzelli" at Jun 23, 97 10:13 pm Message-ID: <199706240755.21706@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Signetic (I think it was them) had some PAL like devices back in the > mid-1970s. I do not think they were as flexible as PALs, but they did > combine the best of the PROM and glue worlds for decoding schemes. Ah yes. The 82S100 and related devices. They were less flexible than later PALs in that there were no flip-flops on the outputs and no internal feedback terms, but were more flexible in that you could program both the AND matrix (like a PAL) and the OR matrix (to decide how many (and which) product terms to use for each output). > William Donzelli -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 24 09:01:41 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: ; from "dynasoar" at Jun 24, 97 5:36 pm Message-ID: <199706240801.21775@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Could someone post a schematic of the power supply kludge with the 17v. > center-tapped transformer? Also how would I go about replacing the plug in I posted it last night. If you've not got it I'll e-mail it to you privately. > daughtercard memory board, which was trashed when I got the machine? The machine will run without that memory card - there's 64K on the system board, and the memory card is another 64K bringing the total to 128K It contains only standard devices (64K*1 DRAMs and some TTL chips) so in theory you could make one from the schematics in the Techref. You might find one somewhere, though. > Kirk Scott -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 24 09:06:30 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 23, 97 5:04 pm Message-ID: <199706240806.21804@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> [PC-jr PSU] > There's been a huge boring discussion going on forever on the list. I Err, I thought that repair and restoration questions were welcome here. If not, then I appolgise and will unsubscribe. What I find _extremely_ boring are the lists of machines/bits that people have just bought from the garage sale/thrift store/wherever. Such messages seem to be simply 'Oh how lucky I am' type things. PC-jr's are not common over here. I've only ever seen one - the one I bought. The transformer bricks are equally rare and shipping one from the States would cost a lot more than making one from new parts. And there will come a time when there are no more working transformer bricks and you'll need to make your own, in which case having measurements taken from one that was working will be rather useful info. > > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 24 02:42:17 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <199706232051.15624@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > Depends on your forte. Mine happens to be software. I'll bet I can > > write the software faster than you can solder the board. HOWEVER, I'll > > I wouldn't bet on it.... I've been known to go from idea to working > prototype in < 1 day. You even bother with ideas? I don't even know what I'm going to write when I sit down at the computer. I just start typing and the program practically writes itself. This happens < 1 minute! Beat that with your silly soldering iron! :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 24 02:47:33 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Historical Research In-Reply-To: <33AF4FBA.5F10@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > I guess another thing that would be useful would be the initial starting > point of the serial numbers for each computer. I find by looking at the > date code on the ICs, I can get *some* idea of when a machine was > actually built. Of course, that assumes that the chips were used > shortly after they were made, and I generally look at a variety of chips > to find the latest date code. I hadn't thought of ECO's; that sounds > like a good idea. Thanks! I've found that some serial numbers will start with 100... instead of, say, just 1. So the first will end up being 1000001. Another example is the Apple ][ which started with 2001. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 24 09:25:10 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <33AF7444.7B1F@ndirect.co.uk>; from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 24, 97 7:16 am Message-ID: <199706240825.21942@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Dear Friends, > > There is no desire from my part to start another flame war (but a > discussion, yes) but in answer to the many that have expressed (here or > privately) their total disinterest for the *meaning* the *history* and > the *culture* behind our collections may I ask them to consider what > their machines would mean without somebody behind (or rather in front) > of them. Machines are just pieces of metal and plastic. They mean > something because they are related to the minds, fingers, emotions, > life, behaviours and destinies of the people behind them. YOU love so > much that piece of hadware for what it meant to you (or to somebody else > you are related with), to your life, to your history of for it meant to > the history of mankind. I think you've found the root of the Apple ][ debate here... To me, some classic computers have a personality. The experience of booting a PERQ 1 - particularly a PERQ 1 I'd just restored - is something I'll never forget. The click as the power relay pulled in. The noise of the fans. The squeal from the hard disk belt as the platters got up to speed. The counting up of the DDS. And then the screen clearing, and a logon prompt appearing. You don't get that with modern computers. I've never really thought about the people behind it, except in a very general way. If the machine had 'come from another planet' I'd still like it. I'd still be interested in it for what it can do - it's a fine piece of machinery that can do some things that you can't do on any PC. People who are interested in the Apple ][ are interested (I suspect) because of its place in history. It was one of the first true personal computers. It got the micro revolution going. But that's not why _I_ collect computers. It would be interesting to see what enthusiasts of other machinery think. I am thinking of motor car enthusiasts in particular. Let's compare a Model T ford with a pre-war Rolls-Royce. The former is a very important car historically. It's the vehicle that (I believe) brought motoring to the average person in the States. But the latter contains much finer engineering. Which would most car collectors consider more valuable? Which would they prefer to run? > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 24 03:03:50 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <33AF7444.7B1F@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > Dear Friends, > > There is no desire from my part to start another flame war (but a > discussion, yes) but in answer to the many that have expressed (here or > privately) their total disinterest for the *meaning* the *history* and > the *culture* behind our collections may I ask them to consider what > their machines would mean without somebody behind (or rather in front) > of them. Machines are just pieces of metal and plastic. They mean > something because they are related to the minds, fingers, emotions, > life, behaviours and destinies of the people behind them. YOU love so > much that piece of hadware for what it meant to you (or to somebody else > you are related with), to your life, to your history of for it meant to > the history of mankind. > > So I am asking *you*, lover of the hardware to reconsider your thoughts > and ask yourself what would your collection mean without all of the > above. I, for one, will be glad to learn that you had second toughts > about this. In either cases it could be useful to read here your > motivations. Do you have a point to make in all this? Seriously, I've been following this from the beginning and I have yet to understand where this wild hair up your ass came from. Please, for the love of humanity, stop. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 24 02:34:09 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: nOn Tue, 24 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > My girlfriend is a professional sculptress, I don't know why I > didn't ask her to begin with. She recommended plain amonia, which I was > sceptical of. I wanted to use Formula 405 basically because you had > recommended it. Well, the amonia worked great and the case looks nearly > brand new - it sure took several hours though. ;-) Never doubt a woman > competent with Dremel tools - for many reasons.... Yes, Windex works well too. > brushes. However, as nice as it looks, it seams as though it's toast. A > few keys stick, several send multiple key bursts, and it doesn't seem as > though the keys are removeable - at least not like as I remember the old > TRS-80 Model 1 keyboard. You could remove the keys and actually clean the > contacts with alchohol. Is this possible, or am I just going to be able > to get dust bunnies between the keys? Whatever you do, don't let any alcohol get down into the key mechanism. This happened to me on my //e keyboard once. No matter what I did, I couldn't dry it out! It was shorted. I finally had to solder it out. Since I needed an 'A' key, came up with all sorts of tricks to overcome the missing key. First I wrote a keyboard driver which would intercept TAB and translate it into 'A'. That worked OK, but it just didn't feel right, plus it only worked when I was in BASIAC. So I soldered two wires into the contact holes and pressed them together whenever I needed 'A'. I was too lazy to order a new A-key. After I got sick of that, I took one of my joysticks that I had previously busted apart in some tantrum of frustration and re-commissioned one of the buttons as an 'A' key. It was stiff but it worked and I went with this solution for a couple months until I finally got around to ordering a new key. When it came a few weeks (and five bucks!) later, it was for the new Apple //gs keyboard! IDIOTS! Now I had to wait all over again for the key. I sent the wrong one back, and apparently it got lost in the mail. So now I was out five bucks as well! I think I used the joystick button for another couple months until I finally got around to ordering the correct key. So let this be a lesson to you! Don't try cleaning any of the keys with alcohol. Perhaps you can disassemble it and run it through the dishwasher? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 23:57:01 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199706240856.EAA19589@mail.cgocable.net> Sam, > > > brushes. However, as nice as it looks, it seams as though it's toast. A > > few keys stick, several send multiple key bursts, and it doesn't seem as > > though the keys are removeable - at least not like as I remember the old > > TRS-80 Model 1 keyboard. You could remove the keys and actually clean the > > contacts with alchohol. Is this possible, or am I just going to be able > > to get dust bunnies between the keys? I did pull off the keycaps on that apple II if you use right type of pull that loops under both sides for even force and unsolder that switch, tear it down and clean it, then put back together. Lots of solderable keyswitches are "tear down"able after you clean up the solder lugs just in case. They're held together by snaps. Sam, Nip! Sad story about key problem... Can't you take that switch apart and clean it with alcohol? I had to do that on my "speedy". Generic keyboard but used good quality gold contacts switch in it only minor cleaning there then it worked 100% The one key tab needed pounding to get anything but now I just merely poke it. :) Total time of repair: 15 to 20 mins. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > Jason D. From mojaveg at ridgecrest.ca.us Mon Jun 23 19:55:47 1997 From: mojaveg at ridgecrest.ca.us (mojaveg@ridgecrest.ca.us) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: PLEASE READ - suggestions to reduce list traffic In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20546F307@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> (from Kai Kaltenbach ) Message-ID: <24a26b8f.c3512-mojaveg@annex127.ridgecrest.ca.us> Hi Kai, > I'd like to suggest that we all keep in mind the following tenets to > help reduce the amount of superfluous traffic on this discussion list: > > - If your reply is to one individual, please send directly to them > (you'll have to override your email program's default Reply address). > > - Please direct responses to solicitations such as group purchases, etc. > directly to the solicitor only. Amen, brother! I have received in excess of 200 mailings in the last 36 hours. There can't be that much to say to the world! I've tried three times since Friday to kill my subscription to this thing, but the best I got was a canned message saying I didn't unsubscribe properly. Successive attempts seem to have only stopped my own mailings from being echoed to me! Does anyone know the proper procedure to unsubscribe? From zmerch at northernway.net Tue Jun 24 07:54:06 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Yes, I shall burn in the fyres of Hades... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970624085406.009ab660@mail.northernway.net> Yes, I finally got the fever for the flavor of a Pringles -- Dooh! I mean, the fever to spark up my CP/M machine... despite everyone & their brother telling me to check the PSU first. Yea, Tar & feather me, and ride me out on a rail... but I saved the thing from Mr. Junkman, and it cost me $1.00 at an auction... Figured there wasn't much to lose. Here's what I have: It is *not* a Heath/Zenith machine.... It states simply on the front: Heathkit Computer. No nuthin' else. On the back, I found the Serial# and the number: H-120-1. I'm assuming this is the model number. It has two floppy drives (one of which the garage door is broken on) a full keyboard (which works fine, but is slightly sticky...) and an internal green 11" diag. mono monitor. Something tickled in my brain about those floppies, so as I lumbered around in the dark in my newly-begun clean-ish basement (Eeeeek!) I found my old non-working Atari 810 disk drive... and the mechs looked almost exact! Would these happen to be the same mechanically, would anyone know? Also, as there was no paperwork for this, so even the most basic, rudimentary info on this unit would be helpful... such as: which drive is the boot drive? Top or bottom? When I sparked it up, everything seemed to work, the tube came to life, and greeted me with a finger pointing to the right in the upper-left corner... and stayed there. Every key sequence I tried resulted in a "Beep" except which, of course, reset the machine and re-greeted me with the finger. Does anyone out there know what I have, and could you tell me? ;^> BTW, I (of course) would be in the market for a set of boot disks for this beastie... Thanks one and all, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 24 08:18:51 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <199706241318.AA26092@world.std.com> > So I am asking *you*, lover of the hardware to reconsider your thoughts > and ask yourself what would your collection mean without all of the > above. I, for one, will be glad to learn that you had second toughts > about this. In either cases it could be useful to read here your > motivations. Interesting comment. From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 24 09:50:12 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Historical Research References: Message-ID: <33AFDEA4.33BF@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > > I guess another thing that would be useful would be the initial starting > > point of the serial numbers for each computer. I find by looking at the > > I've found that some serial numbers will start with 100... instead of, > say, just 1. So the first will end up being 1000001. Another example is > the Apple ][ which started with 2001. > I've seen that in a number of instances. If anyone knows the starting serial numbers for other computers, I would be interested! We have one now, that Apple II! From garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu Tue Jun 24 05:44:42 1997 From: garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu (Gary Katz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: AIM65 (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706241453.KAA02456@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu> If the AIM's aren't gone yet, I'd be interested in one. -gk > Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:08:01 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sam Ismail > Subject: Re: AIM65 (fwd) > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > X-To: Classic Computer Discussion ****************************************************** Gary S. Katz nth Year Graduate Student 626C Old Engineering Hall (412) 624-9347 Voice University of Pittsburgh (412) 624-5407 Fax Dept. of Psychology GARYKATZ@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU Pittsburgh, PA 15260 ****************************************************** From ghjorth at sn.no Tue Jun 24 14:11:10 1997 From: ghjorth at sn.no (Thomas Christopher Jarvis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 93 In-Reply-To: <199706240702.AAA02009@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Will someone please remove me from this list. Thank you. -- +------------------------------------+ ! Thomas Jarvis Bigshaker on IRC ! ! ghjorth@sn.no Y.C.D.B.S.O.Y.A. ! +------------------------------------+ It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. From transit at primenet.com Tue Jun 24 10:44:30 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Computer simulation of an organ (fwd) Message-ID: This is a message I sent to the Electronic Organ list today. They were discussing simulating a pipe organ with a computer. I looked at the Alphasyntauri in my collection, and thought "Been there, done that . . ." ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:40:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charles P. Hobbs" Cc: EORG-L@CFRVM.CFR.USF.EDU Subject: Computer simulation of an organ Anyone here heard of the AlphaSyntauri? This was an organ keyboard, connected to an Apple II computer. The Apple was equipped with sixteen 8-bit DACs (digital-analog converters). The DACs converted digital waveforms (sequences of numbers in the Apple's RAM) to analog, audio signals. The AlphaSyntauri could play up to eight notes simultaneously (2 DACs were normally assigned to each note). Tonalities could be easily selected via software. There were even Fourier-analysis tools allowing the users to make and manipulate their own waveforms. This instrument was popular in the early 80's, but died out before the age of MIDI. By that time, its output (8 bit DACs, relatively low sampling rate) had made the instrument obsolete for most serious musicians (I have one as a collector's item). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jrice at texoma.net Tue Jun 24 11:15:38 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Today's Scrounging Run Message-ID: <33AFF2AA.DBE4E850@texoma.net> Today's scrounging haul: TI99/4 Impact Printer, clean, working, new ribbon $ 1.00 Mac 20mb SCSI external hard drive $20.00 200 360k floppys, new in boxes of 10 $ 3.00 Mac ADB coil cord $ 1.00 Tandy CoCo/1000 delux joystick NIB $ 1.00 Passed up on a C64 with PSU $ 3.00, Amiga A500 NIB $ 25.00, C-128 $1.00 (looked a little well used), Apple 2e $ 5.00 with Disk II. From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jun 24 11:09:28 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic References: <199706240825.21942@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <33AFF138.201C@ndirect.co.uk> A.R. Duell wrote: > I've never really thought about the people behind it, except in a very > general way. If the machine had 'come from another planet' I'd still like > it. I'd still be interested in it for what it can do - it's a fine piece > of machinery that can do some things that you can't do on any PC. I see that I have managed to not to explain myself in such a way to be understood: Your lovely machines (whichever they are) live *only* because there someone (you or another human person) to make it work and appreciate the results. They *only* live in your (or somebody else's) mind. And that is why their history is important because it's not their history that we appreciate but the sentiments, feelings, joy and sadness of the people who used them! Hope this is clearer enrico ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jun 24 11:11:55 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic References: Message-ID: <33AFF1CB.3D12@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Do you have a point to make in all this? Seriously, I've been following > this from the beginning and I have yet to understand where this wild hair > up your ass came from. Please, for the love of humanity, stop. > > Sam I think that there is no need to get vulgar. If that is the general feeling I apologise and widthdraw my question. Sorry enrico From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 17:21:31 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > If not slow as hell. The worst part about the commodore 1541 drive is > that it had its own processor, and it was still slow. The bottleneck was > the serial interface. Commodore was lame not to use something faster > than, what was it, 19.2K? In contrast, the Apple Disk ][ could transfer > data at about a rate of 16K per second. I should clarify this: 19.2K _bps_ vs. 16K _bytes_. Thank you. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 24 14:26:54 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr (some parts info you y'all) In-Reply-To: <199706240258.TAA02092@covina.lightside.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970624152654.006be8b4@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> PC Enterprises is online: http://www.pcenterprises.com/index.shtml However the site is under construction, and I couldn't find a way to the prices for PCjr products. At 07:00 PM 6/23/97 PST8PDT, you wrote: >Anyway, assuming PC Enterprises still carries this stuff, you might want >to check with them. The catalogue also doubles as an information source >since they give a few paragraphs on various tech stuff. >For instance what happens when your system board malfunctions, etc. > >Here's some stuff from their PCjr catalogue that may >be of interest. There's a lot so this is just a few. [LIST CUT] >This catalogue is from 1995 and no doubt they don't have everything >anymore (if their lack of Tandy parts is any indication). >Marc James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jun 23 20:09:14 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Why? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970623181335.3d0f532c@mail.crl.com> At 06:43 PM 6/21/97 +0000, you wrote: >I accept that....but you are such a big country. Isn't it about time you >start looking outside and try to understand other cultures? (no offence But we are a country of other cultures. My father came over from Germany as a boy. My mother was of english descent (going back to Ann Boleyn and Katherine(?) Howard, two of Henry VIII's wives). My sister is an honorary Nigerian. My girlfriend is Russian, French Canadian, and who knows what else. Her sister-in-law is a philippina. Some of my best friends include jamaicans, scotsman, irish, french, german, native american, japanese, chinese, aussies, South African, eritrean, and so on. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jun 24 15:18:44 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:06 2005 Subject: Why? Message-ID: <199706242015.PAA15971@challenge.sunflower.com> Im gonna take a risk here, but do any of these folks collect computers, maybe the recent conversations havn't driven them nuts and they can give us some information about old computers rather than start some type of political hate crime debate. GROW UP EVERYONE. ---------- > From: Uncle Roger > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Why? > Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 8:09 PM > > At 06:43 PM 6/21/97 +0000, you wrote: > >I accept that....but you are such a big country. Isn't it about time you > >start looking outside and try to understand other cultures? (no offence > > But we are a country of other cultures. My father came over from Germany as > a boy. My mother was of english descent (going back to Ann Boleyn and > Katherine(?) Howard, two of Henry VIII's wives). My sister is an honorary > Nigerian. My girlfriend is Russian, French Canadian, and who knows what > else. Her sister-in-law is a philippina. Some of my best friends include > jamaicans, scotsman, irish, french, german, native american, japanese, > chinese, aussies, South African, eritrean, and so on. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jun 24 15:17:24 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 Message-ID: <01IKGCBTPQQQA4LNYX@cc.usu.edu> >Roger Ivie wrote: >> >> No promises, but I _may_ have a CP/M boot disk for the thing and (depending >> on how recently my cow-orkers have cleaned their offices) I may be able to >> find a bit of technical info. >> > >Wow, that would be great! It would also be good to get enough >information to add it to the "Big List" that Bill maintains. In any >case, thanks for the info! OK, here's what I have found so far: - Technical manual for "Microterm II" (also labelled "Series 2000") - Technical manual for "Series 1000" - A few other manuals, including a BASIC language manual and something to do with 2780 communications. Both technical manuals contain schematics. I've not yet compared the schematics to see what the differences between "Series 1000" and "Series 2000" are. I've not yet come across boot disks, but I've been informed that we still have one of the machines in our storage shed, so I expect to find one when I get _really_ serious about poking around. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 24 12:42:56 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: Historical Research In-Reply-To: <33AF34FA.91C@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > One of the things *I* think would be really useful for collectors is to > know the number of computers manufactured, both total and by year. The > only problem is in getting this information; anyone have any ideas, > insights, or better yet, connections to past people who would know or be > able to get this information from companies that have ceased business? > Thanks. I would definitely like to know this information also. It does help in determine what a system is worth to you, since if you know how rare or unrare it is you can have a better idea of what to offer someone for it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 24 12:40:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! In-Reply-To: <199706240856.EAA19589@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > Nip! Sad story about key problem... > > Can't you take that switch apart and clean it with alcohol? I had to > do that on my "speedy". Generic keyboard but used good quality gold > contacts switch in it only minor cleaning there then it worked 100% > The one key tab needed pounding to get anything but now I just > merely poke it. :) Total time of repair: 15 to 20 mins. I don't think you can do that with apple keys. Once they're broke they're broke. I could be wrong about this. I've just never tried it. At the time, I don't think I would've had the dexterity necessary to fix the key. At the very least I didn't have the brain capacity to think about it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jun 24 15:30:58 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! Message-ID: <199706242027.PAA17344@challenge.sunflower.com> Once they are broke, they are broke, trust me on this, You can remove the keycaps, but the switch itself is sealed in one piece. ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: apple II - SCORE! > Date: Tuesday, June 24, 1997 12:40 PM > > On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > Nip! Sad story about key problem... > > > > Can't you take that switch apart and clean it with alcohol? I had to > > do that on my "speedy". Generic keyboard but used good quality gold > > contacts switch in it only minor cleaning there then it worked 100% > > The one key tab needed pounding to get anything but now I just > > merely poke it. :) Total time of repair: 15 to 20 mins. > > I don't think you can do that with apple keys. Once they're broke > they're broke. I could be wrong about this. I've just never tried it. > At the time, I don't think I would've had the dexterity necessary to fix > the key. At the very least I didn't have the brain capacity to think > about it. > > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 23 02:46:18 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706240753.21570@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 24-Jun-97, A.R. Duell wrote: >The video circuitry in the PC-jr can output a few more modes that a CGA >card can't (320*200 in 16 colours, etc), but the monitor is a normal CGA >one. The PCjr is what Tandy used for the basis of thier video modes in the 1000 series machines. I believe they were even seen by software as the same thing, though I could be wrong about this one. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 24 15:37:51 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic References: <199706240825.21942@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> <33AFF138.201C@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33B0301F.35E5@rain.org> e.tedeschi wrote: > > Your lovely machines (whichever they are) live *only* because there > someone (you or another human person) to make it work and appreciate the > results. They *only* live in your (or somebody else's) mind. And that is > why their history is important because it's not their history that we > appreciate but the sentiments, feelings, joy and sadness of the people > who used them! > Oh oh, this sounds like emotions poping up :). I think you make a very valid point and phrased it very well. When I think about putting my machines on display, the fact that the machines are interesting is part of it of course, but the main thrust is how people will react to and think about the machines. When I see the early DEC equipment, it brings to mind the time I spent at the DEC school, the time I spent working with others teaching (and learning!) all about computers, and a host of other things. For me, I think the word is nostalgia (or however it's spelled.) From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 24 15:48:33 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: Help identify these front panels Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2054B51E0@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I just got a couple of unidentified front panels. If anyone can shed some light on what computers these come from, please let me know! Front Panel #1: - No bezel - Has flat switches exactly like the Imsai except they're all black - In the upper right there's a 16-key hexadecimal keypad; black keys with white lettering. - Two rows of switches; 7 in the upper left, and a row of 18 below. - There are numerous LEDs arranged mostly in banks of 4 with 7545 TTL drivers. - The LEDs are on a riser card about 1/2" off the main front panel card. The main card is dark gray and the LED card is green. - Three 40-pin ribbon cable connectors on the bottom edge. Front Panel #2: - Very simple design with metal bezel. Looks like it's from a mini. - 20 cup-shaped plastic paddle switches, some navy blue, some sky blue in color. - Switches are labeled "CLR, STP, MRD, MWR, ADR, EXE" and numbers 2 through 15. - Three lights in the upper left are labeled "POWER, WAIT, CARRY, ENABLE" - There's a key lock in the lower right - A bundle of cables trail from the panel terminating in two 46-pin connectors and a few power leads. - An ink stamp on the PCB reads "5172" - 5/1/72 perhaps? thanks all! By the way, if someone needs one of these, let me know! Kai From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 24 15:56:15 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: Computer Documentation References: <01IKGCBTPQQQA4LNYX@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <33B0346F.3FFC@rain.org> One of the things *I* like to have available is the documentation, particularly schematics, on the things that I have. As such, there are docs and schematics on quite a bit of stuff here but there are also a lot of holes. I'm not sure how the copyright laws apply to machines where the company has ceased to exist, but it would be great to be able to exchange documentation as needed. Things I have machine schematics on include: Commodore CBM machines Polymorphic Computers Lobo Drives Altair Atari 400/800 Corona 400 DEC 16, 11/05, 11/45, 8i IBM PC, AT Imsai Northstar Horizon Vector I, II, III, and 4 Zeneth/Heath computers CompuPro Various S-100 boards and a host of others that I can't remember off the top of my head. Things I would like to get include the Altos, Commodore Pet, Sol, Zeneth H-67 Hard/Floppy disk unit, Compaq Deskpro and luggable, and a bunch of others. Also, what about copies of the ROMs? I have a Zenith lugable that is missing the System Roms and as such, have no way to even see if it works. Anyone else with this type of problem? From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 24 16:01:43 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: IC Date Codes References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2054B51E0@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33B035B7.3C0@rain.org> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > I just got a couple of unidentified front panels. If anyone can shed > some light on what computers these come from, please let me know! > > - An ink stamp on the PCB reads "5172" - 5/1/72 perhaps? > Speaking of date codes, most (if not all) ICs that have a date code are a combination of the week and year so that "5172" would be the 51st week in 1972. Knowing that makes it a lot easier to approximate when the board was made. From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Tue Jun 24 16:31:12 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: C=1570 Drive (was Re:C64 CP/M carts) Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970624223112.006e2dd0@post.keme.co.uk> At 21:44 20/06/97 +0100, we wrote: >> >>>Besides, I was talking about CP/M for the Commodore 1541 drive. That's a >>>multi-speed drive that uses GCR encoding, not MFM. Try writing THAT with >>>22DISK on your PC-clone. >>>I used to know that only C=1570 and C=1571 were capable to read and write >>CP/M disks in a proper way. (GCR+MFM) >>By the way anyone else apart me owning a C=1570 here? >> >>Ciao >> >>i own a 1570, its a american one with a step down transformer, Its >connected to my PC, and guess what, it writes CPM!!! >Steve >Emulator BBS >01284 760851 >Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE Hi Steve, Yours was the only one response I get (since now) from C=1570 owners Mine was made in Germany (did you buy it in the U.S.?) Ciao Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jun 24 16:35:09 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970623181335.3d0f532c@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: This thread is over. Do not respond to it again. If you wish to continue this discussion do so by private e-mail. I don't want to be a jerk about this but I made it pretty clear yesterday that this is off-topic. If you wish to take issue with this contact me privately. ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 24 13:38:55 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: A very nice evening Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2054A979B@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Last night, a saintly gentleman was kind enough to present me with several wonderful pieces of equipment and parts, including: - IBM 5100 with a box of tapes! - KIM-1 in original box(!) w/documentation, etc. - Altos 5000 series Z80A with built-in dual 8" (might give this away if u-pick-up) - Tandy 200 portable with docs & carrying case Plus a bunch of useful parts: - Two SoftStrip readers in original boxes w/docs, etc. - Three Shugart SA800 8" bare drives - Two 5 1/4" bare drives - Several PET motherboards and video power supplies (I'm giving these away if u-pick-up!) - Altos terminal (this goes with the Altos if someone picks up) - IBM 5103 printer (companion printer to the 5100 PC) - 4 slightly broken Tandy 200 portables (I'm giving these away if u-pick-up!) - Two unidentified front panels (look for mail on these) - A CardBoard expansion bus (for the KIM, I think) - PET dealer service manual stuffed with schematics, updates and diagnostic program cassette tapes - PET 80-column video/graphics board upgrade w/docs and box Kai From spc at armigeron.com Tue Jun 24 17:32:46 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Jun 23, 97 12:46:18 pm Message-ID: <199706242232.SAA22299@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Jeff Hellige once stated: > > On 24-Jun-97, A.R. Duell wrote: > > >The video circuitry in the PC-jr can output a few more modes that a CGA > >card can't (320*200 in 16 colours, etc), but the monitor is a normal CGA > >one. > > The PCjr is what Tandy used for the basis of thier video modes in the 1000 > series machines. I believe they were even seen by software as the same thing, > though I could be wrong about this one. For the normal CGA modes, yes. But for the 320x200x16 and 640x200x4 no. For some reason, when in those modes, they did not appear at the standard CGA address in the IBM PCjr, which made programming for those modes on the PCjr real fun (gotta love the way MS-DOS can't deal with non-contiguous memory). In the PCjr, the video memory could reside anywhere in the first 128K of RAM, but there was circuitry to echo that to the standard CGA addresses. And due to the video memory sharing main memory, the PCjr wasn't as fast as the PC (that, and due to lack of DMA). When programming those modes under MS-DOS, I had to boot a particular setup where I knew the address of the video, which left me less memory to work with MS-DOS, since MS-DOS was loaded PAST the video memory (which if I recall, meant I lost something like 64 or 96K of RAM - oh, the video memory couldn't reside just anywhere, there were alignment restrictions. Sigh). -spc (Funny that the Tandy's were more compatible than the PCjr ... ) From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Tue Jun 24 18:36:12 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: Convergent Technology Computers In-Reply-To: from "Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers" at Jun 22, 97 03:32:45 am Message-ID: <199706242336.SAA08450@mastif.ee.nd.edu> > > > What's he got to trade? That's my own personal favourite machine -- in > my arrogant opinion the aesthetically finest machine ever made. (And I > had my 3B1 for a couple of years before I went to work for Unisys at the > old Convergent Technologies plant in San Jose). > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe > > Hello - I have several Convergent Technology computers. I have the users manuals and software. Do you have any technical documentation or schematics that you would be willing to share? I especially need to rewrite the ethernet software drivers. They don't handle subnets properly. John Ott ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 24 12:36:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <199706240825.21942@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > To me, some classic computers have a personality. The experience of > booting a PERQ 1 - particularly a PERQ 1 I'd just restored - is something > I'll never forget. The click as the power relay pulled in. The noise of > the fans. The squeal from the hard disk belt as the platters got up to > speed. The counting up of the DDS. And then the screen clearing, and a > logon prompt appearing. You don't get that with modern computers. > > I've never really thought about the people behind it, except in a very > general way. If the machine had 'come from another planet' I'd still like > it. I'd still be interested in it for what it can do - it's a fine piece > of machinery that can do some things that you can't do on any PC. > > People who are interested in the Apple ][ are interested (I suspect) > because of its place in history. It was one of the first true personal > computers. It got the micro revolution going. But that's not why _I_ > collect computers. I'm interested in the Apple because I grew up on it and it was a wonderful machine to grow up on at that. There was so much to explore. And it was more than just the machine itself, but the culture that spawned around it. The culture I am referring to mainly is the BBS culture with all its lingo, the pirate groups who banded together and cracked software, the holy wars with other computers. But I am always fascinated by other computers. More so than with the Apple. I know all about the apple. That's old hat. I love going to a swap meet and finding a computer I've never even heard of before (not likely since joining this discussion), then taking it home and turning it on and finding out that it booted into this particular BASIC or that particular monitor or (unfortunately) required this particular boot disk which I must now go find. Its fun to see the differet paradigms that computers of olden days used, rather than the ubiquitous PC BIOS that you invaribly see when you bootup any computer these days. Even computers I've loathed in the past I discover good things about and appreciate them for their uniqueness. The person behind the machine is not important to me. It really depends on the person. Again, since I grew up on Apples I would only be fascinated that Steve Wozniak did this hardware or that, because I know who he is and respect him. Any other well known creator (Chuck Peddle would be a good example) I could care less about because I barely know who he is or what he's done. Now, mind you I know Chuck has done some tremendous work now from having read the discussions on this newsgroup, but he's just not my hero because I didn't grow up on Commodores. It would be like trying to convince someone not from America how amazing Babe Ruth was. The history behind the machine is what I am most interested in. What company built it, what year it came out, what technology it used (its processor, RAM, etc), what its predecessor and successor were, etc. I like to know each machines historical perspective. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Tue Jun 24 19:10:07 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. Message-ID: Greeting: I am located in central Nebraska, USA, and am looking for the following to add to my collection. If you have these systems or might be able to get them for me at a reasonable price, PLEASE e-mail me. MSX computer Colour Genie TI 99/4a I am also looking for any old classic software for these types of computers. My specialty is the TRS-80 Model 1,3,4 computers. I am especially interested in TRS-80 and Apple ][e games at this time. If you would like a complete (65 page) listing of all my hardware and software available, please send me your mailing address. If you would like it immediately, please send $3 to the address below to cover shipping charges. Well, thanks a lot for your time, and I look forward to hearing from fellow collectors. Remember, I am always buying, selling, and trading. CORD COSLOR Archive Software //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From wbrco at valuenet.net Tue Jun 24 19:25:32 1997 From: wbrco at valuenet.net (Allen Underdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: question concerning SWTP system References: <199706232342.QAA28878@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <33AF3B36.1C77@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <33B0657C.67F5@valuenet.net> Jeff Hellige wrote: > > I'm looking at picking up a 6809 based system by SWTP. It has a couple > of RAM cards, a serial card, parallel card, and the CPU card, all on the > SS-50 bus, and it has OS-9 ROMS in it. The seller doesn't know if it's > functional or not. Is there anyone familiar with these machines? > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 yea, what do you want to know?? There were several versions of "bug". I never ran OS/9 (although I now have a machine that will). Tell me what versions/types of cards are in it and I can tell you what it is. -- | Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | | Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | | homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | | http://lakers.cybercon.com/wurmborn | From chemif at mbox.queen.it Tue Jun 24 19:33:28 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts Message-ID: <199706250033.CAA04147@mbox.queen.it> At 13:54 23/06/97 -0800, you wrote: >> On another note, has anyone ever seen (or have) a Basis-xxx? I know it >> has a number in the name, but I can't remember it. It was an Apple ][ >> clone that also ran CP/M I believe? Something like that. I'm sure >> someone knows about it. I only knew one guy who ever had one, but I never >> saw it. It was a friend in high school back in 1989. > >I believe these were designed/built in Europe, probably Germany. In Italy there was Lemon computer building Apple-clones. Has anyone heard about them? From clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com Tue Jun 24 20:04:53 1997 From: clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com (clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts Message-ID: <97Jun24.182108pdt.32259@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> chemif@mbox.queen.it wrote: >At 13:54 23/06/97 -0800, you wrote: >>> On another note, has anyone ever seen (or have) a Basis-xxx? I know it >>> has a number in the name, but I can't remember it. It was an Apple ][ >>> clone that also ran CP/M I believe? Something like that. I'm sure >>> someone knows about it. I only knew one guy who ever had one, but I never >>> saw it. It was a friend in high school back in 1989. >> >>I believe these were designed/built in Europe, probably Germany. > >In Italy there was Lemon computer building Apple-clones. >Has anyone heard about them? Were they actually called 'Lemon's'? That certainly doesn't have a positive connotation in North America! In Canada, a company built Apple II clones called 'Pineapples'. There were probably other fruit-named clones as well! -- Clark Geisler From sinasohn at crl.com Tue Jun 24 20:27:45 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970624182843.5b2f4086@ricochet.net> At 04:09 PM 6/24/97 +0000, you wrote: >Your lovely machines (whichever they are) live *only* because there >someone (you or another human person) to make it work and appreciate the >results. They *only* live in your (or somebody else's) mind. And that is >why their history is important because it's not their history that we >appreciate but the sentiments, feelings, joy and sadness of the people >who used them! What yer saying then, is, that we should collect to remember the impact each computer had on our individual lives and on the lives of the people around us, rather than simply because a machine is physically attractive, technically impressive, or financially successful. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Tue Jun 24 20:27:50 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970624182846.5b2f83e6@ricochet.net> At 04:11 PM 6/24/97 +0000, you wrote: >I think that there is no need to get vulgar. If that is the general >feeling I apologise and widthdraw my question. Sorry There is no "general feeling". We are not the Borg. We are a bunch of individuals with differing opinions and attitudes. You are one of us, I am one of us, each of us is one of us. Some are more vocal than others. Take what is of use or of interest to you, and ignore the rest. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From william at ans.net Tue Jun 24 20:33:09 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: Computer Documentation In-Reply-To: <33B0346F.3FFC@rain.org> Message-ID: <199706250133.AA07560@interlock.ans.net> > One of the things *I* like to have available is the documentation, > particularly schematics, on the things that I have. As such, there are > docs and schematics on quite a bit of stuff here but there are also a > lot of holes. I'm not sure how the copyright laws apply to machines > where the company has ceased to exist, but it would be great to be able > to exchange documentation as needed. Things I have machine schematics > on include: It is good that you have volunteered information that perhaps someone on the list is dying to have. Perhaps a directory of people with maintenance prints is needed? I would be willing to share information. Currently, I have maintenance info on: DEC PDP-8/e,f,m,s Heathkits (various, I would have to look) Interdata model 4 and 14 Sphere 6800 SWTPC 6800 Of course some of this stuff is stored away and may take an excavation to find, but I am willing to make limitted copies. Of course, I am looking for maintenance info as well: HP 2100A SGI Iris 2500T > Things I would like to get include the Altos, Commodore Pet, Sol, Zeneth > H-67 Hard/Floppy disk unit, Compaq Deskpro and luggable, and a bunch of > others. Also, what about copies of the ROMs? I have a Zenith lugable > that is missing the System Roms and as such, have no way to even see if > it works. Anyone else with this type of problem? Yes, it seems that EPROMs are robbed out of many otherwise nice machines. A certain SGI Iris 2500T has just about EVERY ROM and big (PGA) chip pulled out... But it is still fun. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Tue Jun 24 20:45:58 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970624182843.5b2f4086@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199706250145.AA07943@interlock.ans.net> > us, rather than simply because a machine is physically attractive, > technically impressive, or financially successful. Actually, some of the real dogs are just as fun and important. The Lisa, for example, strikes out on all three (OK, two strikes and one foul) of the above mentioned catagories, but is still a fascinating machine. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 24 21:06:47 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: A very nice evening In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2054A979B@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > - IBM 5100 with a box of tapes! > - KIM-1 in original box(!) w/documentation, etc. Sa-weeet! > Plus a bunch of useful parts: > > - Two SoftStrip readers in original boxes w/docs, etc. TRADE! TRADE! I want one! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ccm at sentex.net Tue Jun 24 22:23:33 1997 From: ccm at sentex.net (Commercial Computing Museum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: Historical Research Message-ID: <199706250323.XAA13729@granite.sentex.net> This is just information. I completed a reference tool that accomplishes most of this for computers built between 1950 and 1979. It's called Domestic Commercial Computing Power Between 1950 & 1979 (DCCP). It doesn't include statistical data, but it does list every make and model of computers built or sold by North American computer companies. It was self-published, but you'll find reviews in upcoming issues of the Annals, Analytical Engine, and the CBI newsletter. It's not available on the web and I have no plans for that, but I am trying to make a CD version that would include photographs, commercials/promotional video clips, sales literature, etc. We could use a similar tool for the years 1980 onwards for commercially available computers, but also for military computers, industrial control computers, programmable communication controllers, etc. Yours in good faith. Kevin Stumpf ------------------------------------- I'm working on my signature file. From ccm at sentex.net Tue Jun 24 22:33:49 1997 From: ccm at sentex.net (Commercial Computing Museum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: Convergent Technology Computers Message-ID: <199706250333.XAA15028@granite.sentex.net> And don't forget the Workslate from Convergent. It was the slickest laptop around in 1984. Small LCD screen but built in voice digitization and voice mail system! No disk, only min-cassette. Kevin From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 24 22:55:46 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970624182846.5b2f83e6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > There is no "general feeling". We are not the Borg. We are a bunch of > individuals with differing opinions and attitudes. You are one of us, I am > one of us, each of us is one of us. Some are more vocal than others. Take > what is of use or of interest to you, and ignore the rest. Damn straight. Hell, I'd wager that there are more libertarians on this list than there are on a couple of lists that are dedicated to that philosophy. At least in terms of traffic. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 24 23:29:47 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <199706250145.AA07943@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > us, rather than simply because a machine is physically attractive, > > technically impressive, or financially successful. > > Actually, some of the real dogs are just as fun and important. The Lisa, > for example, strikes out on all three (OK, two strikes and one foul) of the > above mentioned catagories, but is still a fascinating machine. IMHO, the Lisa gets a hit, a base run, then a strike-out. Yeah, comparing the Lisa to the TRS-80 Model 16 from the same period (both 6Mhz 68000 CPU) is amusing. The Mod 16 gets a foul then two home runs. I stopped at the Softwaire Centre on Pico in West LA back in mid '83 (looking for a magazine - they didn't have it) and wound up asking myself "Here I am playing (some missile command clone) on the same CPU my customers are using to do their bookkeeping, but they've got three people pounding on keyboards, while this thing is making pictures and following a mouse." Yes, in those days I had an idea that a $5000+ computer should be usefull. (Now, sure, I'd love a Lisa -- and with the Unix port I saw on it at the the last OCC in Anaheim in '84 -- I'm not a serious GUI fan, though I fake it at work). The Mod 16 did a job -- the Lisa played games. Now, I want to play those games. But no _way_ will I replace the old Xenix box -- just add more CTIX, Unix, Solaris, Linux etc. boxen to stand by their older brother. Hey, I teethed on it when I wasn't even thirty years old yet. Yes, we all have our personal favorites, and want to learn more. After a while on this mailing list I'm actually _tempted_ to allow a machine with a 6502 into my home -- breaking a vow I made when I first saw the original Pet keyboard, Apple II disk subsystem and Atari _anything_ especially the 400 keyboard and BASIC interpreter (And I first learned BASIC on an HP, from whence Atari BASIC descends). We grow, we learn. If you stop learning, roll over -- if you're not dead, you should be. Such I learned from Robert Heinlein, my spiritual father. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From foxnhare at goldrush.com Tue Jun 24 23:32:20 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 93 References: <199706240702.AAA02009@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33B09F53.11E7@goldrush.com> >From: Kai Kaltenbach >Subject: My current For Trade/Wanted List >-------------------- >Wanted: >Commodore PET dual floppy system model 2040 I would suggest looking for a 4040, they are compatible with the 1541 as the 2040 is, more 4040s were made, and you won't have to worry about getting DOS 1.0 ROMs (which should be upgraded) The single drive equivelant to the 4040 is the 2031. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 25 02:03:05 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: Why? References: Message-ID: <33B0C2A9.2FB@ndirect.co.uk> Bill Whitson wrote: > > This thread is over. Do not respond to it again. If you wish to > continue this discussion do so by private e-mail. I don't want to > be a jerk about this but I made it pretty clear yesterday that this > is off-topic. > > If you wish to take issue with this contact me privately. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp > bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu > http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw AS you might have noticed I have not answered to messages to thsi topic anymore. It would be usefuls if you as the list operator, could clarify if this is only a technical topics list or if it is not possible to talk about the *history* of computing. As I have recently expressed here I believe that we all love old computers for what they mean in relation to the history of humanity an not only for the bare hardware (and software). Please note that I think I have quite a pretty extensive and balanced hardware collection in my Museum and so this is *not* something like the Esopo's story of the wolf and the sour grapes.... Thank you enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 25 02:09:14 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic References: Message-ID: <33B0C41A.5F0D@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > The history behind the machine is what I am most interested in. What > company built it, what year it came out, what technology it used (its > processor, RAM, etc), what its predecessor and successor were, etc. I > like to know each machines historical perspective. > > Sam I see that you had a change of mind. Good. Now can we start reasoning and perhaps, who knows, even agreeing.... enrico From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 25 02:11:48 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. References: Message-ID: <33B0C4B4.61BB@ndirect.co.uk> Cord Coslor wrote: > > Greeting: > > I am located in central Nebraska, USA, and am looking for the following to > add to my collection. If you have these systems or might be able to get > them for me at a reasonable price, PLEASE e-mail me. > > MSX computer > Colour Genie > TI 99/4a I have all three of them for sale/trade/swap I am looking for IBM PC Junior Apple II TRS-80 (model I) enrico From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 25 02:13:33 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic References: <1.5.4.16.19970624182846.5b2f83e6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <33B0C51D.7CFE@ndirect.co.uk> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 04:11 PM 6/24/97 +0000, you wrote: > >I think that there is no need to get vulgar. If that is the general > >feeling I apologise and widthdraw my question. Sorry > > There is no "general feeling". We are not the Borg. We are a bunch of > individuals with differing opinions and attitudes. You are one of us, I am > one of us, each of us is one of us. Some are more vocal than others. Take > what is of use or of interest to you, and ignore the rest. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ OK, if this the policy I will oblige enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 25 02:16:46 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic References: <1.5.4.16.19970624182843.5b2f4086@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <33B0C5DE.52B7@ndirect.co.uk> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 04:09 PM 6/24/97 +0000, you wrote: > >Your lovely machines (whichever they are) live *only* because there > >someone (you or another human person) to make it work and appreciate the > >results. They *only* live in your (or somebody else's) mind. And that is > >why their history is important because it's not their history that we > >appreciate but the sentiments, feelings, joy and sadness of the people > >who used them! > > What yer saying then, is, that we should collect to remember the impact each > computer had on our individual lives and on the lives of the people around > us, rather than simply because a machine is physically attractive, > technically impressive, or financially successful. What I am saying is that that particular machine is attractive, impressive or successfull because *YOU*, your friends, other people think, thought, did not think, did not thought, that it was so. In short for its history. Otherwise it is just a piece of metal and plastic. enrico ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 25 01:31:59 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: Convergent Technology Computers In-Reply-To: <199706250333.XAA15028@granite.sentex.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Commercial Computing Museum wrote: > And don't forget the Workslate from Convergent. It was the slickest laptop > around in 1984. Small LCD screen but built in voice digitization and voice > mail system! No disk, only min-cassette. I see one all the time at my local swap meet but always pass it up. I found a program micro-cassette at a thrift shop and decided I'm going to pick this thing up next swap meet. Sounds real neat. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 25 01:40:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <33B0C41A.5F0D@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > The history behind the machine is what I am most interested in. What > > company built it, what year it came out, what technology it used (its > > processor, RAM, etc), what its predecessor and successor were, etc. I > > like to know each machines historical perspective. > > > > Sam > > I see that you had a change of mind. Good. Now can we start reasoning > and perhaps, who knows, even agreeing.... I didn't have a change of mind. This is how I've felt all along. I just didn't appreciate someone attempting to ram it down my throat. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 25 02:19:53 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: Historical Research References: <199706250323.XAA13729@granite.sentex.net> Message-ID: <33B0C699.7042@rain.org> Commercial Computing Museum wrote: > > This is just information. I completed a reference tool that accomplishes > most of this for computers built between 1950 and 1979. It's called Domestic > Commercial Computing Power Between 1950 & 1979 (DCCP). It doesn't include > statistical data, but it does list every make and model of computers built > or sold by North American computer companies. It was self-published, but When you say it accomplishes most of this, are you referring to also including serial number information? Your idea of including sales literature and photos, and then making it available on CD is excellent! I am talking with some friends of mine about doing something similiar. Judging by the trends in computer collecting over the past couple of years, I tend to think that collecting classic computers is gaining in popularity and that printed information is currently, for the most part, sorely lacking. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Wed Jun 25 02:21:53 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Whoah! I ignore my mailbox for a few days and come in to find out it's waaay over quota and stuff will start bouncing if I don't clean it up real fast. Gotta love this group! :) On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > I would guess that the controller is compatible with Disk ][ drives, > although it would not surprised me if Apple purposely changed the pinouts > or used a different connector to thwart anyone attempting to use a ][ > drive with the ///. Yeah, I guess that wouldn't surprise me. If anyone does know for certain, please do tell! > > Thankfully my internal drive works, but I wouldn't mind hooking up a > > second drive to it... and the chances of finding a Disk /// lying around > > are practically nil. > > I don't think they made such a beast...did they? Yes, they did. Actually, I picked up a little booklet in a thrift shop recently, that's labeled "Apple In Depth: A Reference Guide to Apple Products", and the Disk /// is in there. An interesting quote from the "Apple Disk ///" page: "The first external drive that you add to your system just plugs into the back of your Apple ///. Then up to two more drives can be added in 'daisy chain' fashion... ...There are no separate power cords to tangle up because the Apple /// supplies power directly to the disks." I don't think I'd trust my Apple /// in its current condition to power three external drives, though. :) > ShrinkIt is easy to use. You'll do fine. I'll try to e-mail the images > to you in uuencoded format sometime within the next few days (I am busy). Take your time, I have a full mailbox at the moment. :) > > I don't suppose the /// disks are available at some anonymous FTP site > > already? It'd be especially cool in .dsk format, as that's how I transfer > > all of my ][ software. (I never had a decent terminal program for my > > Micromodem IIe, so I wrote a whole disk transfer program and extract > > individual files when I have to once the disk image is on my Amiga.) > > I doubt it. It would be a good thing to do though. Once the disks are in my hands, I'll make .dsk files for my own archives, anyway. It's funny... I started making these .dsk files in 1993, before I was aware of anyone else using them for anything. The format is obvious, but I even used that extension. I had just discovered, after several years of neglecting my ][+, that bit rot had set in on a fair number of disks and I wanted to put the data somewhere safe. > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 25 02:35:24 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: H8 References: Message-ID: <33B0CA3C.78F0@rain.org> Well, I ended up buying the lot for $100. For those who are interested, the lot included: H8 Computer H19 Terminal FX-80 printer in original box Heathkit dual 5 1/2" floppy disk drives Heathkit dual 8" floppy disk drives 4 boxes of docs, schematics, and software (each box about 12" x 12" x 24") HDOS program listings 1 box of extra boards of some type for the H8 I might add everything there is in mint condition and the guy I bought it from was the orignal owner/builder! Haven't had time yet to sort things out. Since this weekend is field day (Amateur Radio event), I probably won't have a chance to check out everything until sometime next week. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Wed Jun 25 03:40:19 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > At > this point, unless someone comes along and offers him more than $125 per > unit and buys the whole lot, they are going to Dynatem. That's too rich > for my blood. Whoah! I'm a student who WOULD be starving if he didn't still live at home with the 'rents. So much for that. :( > He also has the line on hundreds of Panasonic RL-H18 palmtops. This is a > palmtop which came out around 1985 and had FORTH in ROM. It also has a > 20-col (or 40-col?) thermal printer and a case which bundles the two > together. His company also developed an expansion "tray" which houses > extra memory that the Panasonic can access through bank-switching. He > sold this product to (I believe) an insurance firm and now they want to > dump them all. Now again, he said they have hundreds, and were just > going to shit-can them, but he said the company would most likely opt to > get some money back for them if they could. He said probably about $10 > per unit would get them, but they'd have to be purchased in one shot. > Now I don't think that there are enough people here with an interest to > buy one. I've never seen this particular model, but I'm interested. Maybe in as many as *three* of them. I currently don't have anything more 'portable' than a Kaypro, so I'll even put up with the teensy-weensy screens on those things just to have something I can take with me on my lengthy bus trips in and out of town. (And they'd give me something to do during boring lectures, too. :) ) > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From groberts at mitre.org Wed Jun 25 06:55:57 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: H8 In-Reply-To: <33B0CA3C.78F0@rain.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970625075557.007cb740@mail90> did your haul include the *source code* listings for HDOS? HDOS was one of the few OS'es for which one could get source listings back then (of course there was also UCSD Pascal). I'd love to pursue the possibility of posting these on the internet somewhere if we could get permission from Zenith Data Systems (I presume they're the owners of rights to this now?) There's already a fair amount out there that's been reverse engineered but why not make the original available? haven't seen much traffic on this group about the H8 but it was a wonderful machine in its own right. i've still got mine and it hums along just fine. - glenn At 12:35 AM 6/25/97 -0700, you wrote: >Well, I ended up buying the lot for $100. For those who are interested, >the lot included: > >H8 Computer >H19 Terminal >FX-80 printer in original box >Heathkit dual 5 1/2" floppy disk drives >Heathkit dual 8" floppy disk drives >4 boxes of docs, schematics, and software (each box about 12" x 12" x >24") >HDOS program listings >1 box of extra boards of some type for the H8 > >I might add everything there is in mint condition and the guy I bought >it from was the orignal owner/builder! Haven't had time yet to sort >things out. Since this weekend is field day (Amateur Radio event), I >probably won't have a chance to check out everything until sometime next >week. > > +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From william at ans.net Wed Jun 25 07:38:18 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706251238.AA26106@interlock.ans.net> > > Actually, some of the real dogs are just as fun and important. The Lisa, > > for example, strikes out on all three (OK, two strikes and one foul) of the > > above mentioned catagories, but is still a fascinating machine. > > IMHO, the Lisa gets a hit, a base run, then a strike-out. Let me clarify my analogy: aesthetic - strike - At least a few poeple back then said it looked like an old fashioned computer terminal. The other machines of the time looked far more modern. technical - foul - It seems that the Lisa should do better here, but I really think the engineers blew it. The original OS is too innovative, so much that the computer is nearly unuseable. success - strike - Obviously! William Donzelli william@ans.net From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Tue Jun 24 21:33:21 1997 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! Message-ID: <199706251321.GAA01829@mx2.u.washington.edu> > My girlfriend is a professional sculptress, I don't know why I > didn't ask her to begin with. She recommended plain amonia, which I was > sceptical of. I wanted to use Formula 405 basically because you had > recommended it. Well, the amonia worked great and the case looks nearly > brand new - it sure took several hours though. ;-) Never doubt a woman I'm told that FANTASTIK handles static better than Formula 405. I noticed a reference to trichloroethane a few days ago. I usta use it years ago on Xeroxes. Be *careful* with it on hot parts. I'm told that on contact with hot metal, trichlor produces phosgene gas, which was one of the war gases used in WWI...slightly fatal. :> > You could remove the keys and actually clean the > contacts with alchohol. Is this possible, or am I just going to be able > to get dust bunnies between the keys? I've successfully used alcohol to clean keys by squirting it in there at high pressure from a bottle. Have you tried MEK? I think of alcohol (the kind without water) and MEK as safe on almost anything. From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Tue Jun 24 22:03:23 1997 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <199706251321.GAA12552@mx5.u.washington.edu> Why do I play with old computers? I love collecting oddball stuff, just to consider what people could do...in what directions the industry could have gone. I play with old software (Visicalc, Concurrent DOS, and others) and trace their influences on today's WINtel products...and you know? as clunky as those old programs are, today's software is a direct descendant of many classic programs. I'm a trivia freak, and computer trivia's fun. Old computers are great trivia. (here's a good one for everyone...does anyone remember "synthetic programming"? Explanation on request.) I recondition old PC's, because -- then -- it puts an *affordable* PC into someone's hands. Unused machinery distresses me. Good machinery trashed makes me really ill. Why do we (USA) throw so much away? I loved computers from my first programmable calculator (1978...a TI-58). I lusted after many higher-priced units of the day. I can satisfy my ex-lusts now for -- sometimes -- a few bucks. I see the earlier stuff I have on the shelf increasing in value. Hey I'm not in business for my health! And...so you watch TV in the evening. Well, I hate TV and don't watch it. Does that make it bad? I read old issues of Punch Magazine, sci-fi and play with old machines. We all should have *something* different to do, or else we'd be alike, and who would I talk to, to keep me interested? From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Jun 25 08:28:10 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: Convergent Technology Computers Message-ID: <199706251324.IAA02276@challenge.sunflower.com> Are those DOS machines, or are those the BTOS/CTOS type I used to run in the military? ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Convergent Technology Computers > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 1:31 AM > > On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Commercial Computing Museum wrote: > > > And don't forget the Workslate from Convergent. It was the slickest laptop > > around in 1984. Small LCD screen but built in voice digitization and voice > > mail system! No disk, only min-cassette. > > I see one all the time at my local swap meet but always pass it up. I > found a program micro-cassette at a thrift shop and decided I'm going to > pick this thing up next swap meet. Sounds real neat. > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 25 05:07:33 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic References: Message-ID: <33B0EDE5.223@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > > The history behind the machine is what I am most interested in. What > > > company built it, what year it came out, what technology it used (its > > > processor, RAM, etc), what its predecessor and successor were, etc. I > > > like to know each machines historical perspective. > > > > > > Sam > > > > I see that you had a change of mind. Good. Now can we start reasoning > > and perhaps, who knows, even agreeing.... > > I didn't have a change of mind. This is how I've felt all along. I just > didn't appreciate someone attempting to ram it down my throat. > > Sam Just as a matter of curiosity, I hope you don't mind my asking your age? If you do, I apologise. enrico From walgen at do.isst.fhg.de Thu Jun 26 08:46:28 1997 From: walgen at do.isst.fhg.de (Stefan Walgenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. Message-ID: <01BC817F.72DEE050@dhcp9.do.isst.fhg.de> ---------- From: Cord Coslor[SMTP:coslor@pscosf.peru.edu] Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 2:50 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. > I am located in central Nebraska, USA, and am looking for the following to > add to my collection. If you have these systems or might be able to get > them for me at a reasonable price, PLEASE e-mail me. > > MSX computer > Colour Genie > TI 99/4a I have a Colour Genie and a Sony HitBit HB75 and also a Ti99/4A as I live in germany sending the TI99/4A makes no sense but if you are interested in the other items drop me a note. I would like to swap them on a "I send them to you and pay on my own and you send me some other stuff and pay for the shipping". What do you think? Here my URL for some other stuff I have to trade: http://192.102.161.122/~walgen/ From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Jun 25 09:00:26 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. Message-ID: <199706251356.IAA04079@challenge.sunflower.com> Im in kansas and have a spare TI994a with powersupply but no RF box. ---------- > From: Stefan Walgenbach > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. > Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 8:46 AM > > > > ---------- > From: Cord Coslor[SMTP:coslor@pscosf.peru.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 2:50 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. > > > > I am located in central Nebraska, USA, and am looking for the following to > > add to my collection. If you have these systems or might be able to get > > them for me at a reasonable price, PLEASE e-mail me. > > > > MSX computer > > Colour Genie > > TI 99/4a > > I have a Colour Genie and a Sony HitBit HB75 and also a Ti99/4A > as I live in germany sending the TI99/4A makes no sense but if you > are interested in the other items drop me a note. I would like to > swap them on a "I send them to you and pay on my own and you send > me some other stuff and pay for the shipping". What do you think? > > Here my URL for some other stuff I have to trade: > > http://192.102.161.122/~walgen/ > From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 25 15:50:32 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <199706251321.GAA12552@mx5.u.washington.edu>; from "PG Manney" at Jun 24, 97 11:03 pm Message-ID: <199706251450.12067@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Why do I play with old computers? > > I love collecting oddball stuff, just to consider what people could do...in > what directions the industry could have gone. I play with old software > (Visicalc, Concurrent DOS, and others) and trace their influences on > today's WINtel products...and you know? as clunky as those old programs > are, today's software is a direct descendant of many classic programs. > > I'm a trivia freak, and computer trivia's fun. Old computers are great > trivia. (here's a good one for everyone...does anyone remember "synthetic > programming"? Explanation on request.) > > I recondition old PC's, because -- then -- it puts an *affordable* PC into > someone's hands. Unused machinery distresses me. Good machinery trashed > makes me really ill. Why do we (USA) throw so much away? > > I loved computers from my first programmable calculator (1978...a TI-58). I > lusted after many higher-priced units of the day. I can satisfy my ex-lusts > now for -- sometimes -- a few bucks. > > I see the earlier stuff I have on the shelf increasing in value. Hey I'm > not in business for my health! > > And...so you watch TV in the evening. Well, I hate TV and don't watch it. > Does that make it bad? I read old issues of Punch Magazine, sci-fi and play > with old machines. We all should have *something* different to do, or else > we'd be alike, and who would I talk to, to keep me interested? > > > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ghjorth at sn.no Wed Jun 25 15:26:51 1997 From: ghjorth at sn.no (Thomas Christopher Jarvis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 94 In-Reply-To: <199706250702.AAA25736@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Will someone take me off this list. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 25 17:06:02 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:07 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <199706251321.GAA12552@mx5.u.washington.edu>; from "PG Manney" at Jun 24, 97 11:03 pm Message-ID: <199706251606.17384@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Sorry about the repeated message - this is what I wanted to say : > I love collecting oddball stuff, just to consider what people could do...in > what directions the industry could have gone. I play with old software > (Visicalc, Concurrent DOS, and others) and trace their influences on > today's WINtel products...and you know? as clunky as those old programs > are, today's software is a direct descendant of many classic programs. What worries me is that in a lot of cases, the older machines are more useable than the modern Wintel equivalents. This applies both to a new user (somebody who just wants to write 2 page letters does _NOT_ (or should not) need a 166MHz Pentium with 16Mbytes of RAM), and to 'hackers' who want to understand their machines. It's possible for one person to complete understand both the hardware and software of most classic computers - something that (IMHO) is not possible with a Wintel box. > > I'm a trivia freak, and computer trivia's fun. Old computers are great > trivia. (here's a good one for everyone...does anyone remember "synthetic > programming"? Explanation on request.) Remember it? If it's what I am thinking of, I was doing it a couple of weeks ago. You are talking about a 'Coconut', right (explanation of that codename also on request - it has _nothing_ to do with the Tandy CoCo). Nowadays I do something similar. I create a GROB with the right bit patterns, use the SystemRPL 'Get' routine to remove the header, and thus create new objects. > And...so you watch TV in the evening. Well, I hate TV and don't watch it. No I don't. In fact I don't even own a (broadcast-band) television. There are plenty of computers to play with, circuits to solder up and try out, enthusiasts to swap war stories with, programs to write, etc. I am not going to waste what little time I have watching other people do mindless things ;-) -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Wed Jun 25 11:21:37 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <01IKHIF8U3W6AKU831@cc.usu.edu> > Remember it? If it's what I am thinking of, I was doing it a couple of > weeks ago. You are talking about a 'Coconut', right (explanation of that > codename also on request - it has _nothing_ to do with the Tandy CoCo). > Nowadays I do something similar. I create a GROB with the right bit > patterns, use the SystemRPL 'Get' routine to remove the header, and thus > create new objects. Wouldn't it be easier to create the object on something else (like that PDP-11 sitting in the corner) and then just download it using Kermit? I built a set of macros for M80 to create Chip-8 code I could download from my DECmate, but I never cobbled together a real assembler for the beast... Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 25 17:28:40 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <01IKHIF8U3W6AKU831@cc.usu.edu>; from "Roger Ivie" at Jun 25, 97 10:21 am Message-ID: <199706251628.18510@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > Remember it? If it's what I am thinking of, I was doing it a couple of > > weeks ago. You are talking about a 'Coconut', right (explanation of that > > codename also on request - it has _nothing_ to do with the Tandy CoCo). > > Nowadays I do something similar. I create a GROB with the right bit > > patterns, use the SystemRPL 'Get' routine to remove the header, and thus > > create new objects. > > Wouldn't it be easier to create the object on something else (like that > PDP-11 sitting in the corner) and then just download it using Kermit? Yes, if I had the PDP11 with me all the time. The point is that by building the object on the target machine (notice how carefully I'm avoiding mentioning the name), I can build new system objects anywhere. It takes the boredom out of long journeys... > I built a set of macros for M80 to create Chip-8 code I could download > from my DECmate, but I never cobbled together a real assembler for the > beast... It's not that hard. Saturn Assembler is quite straightforward (especially if you use a 'sane' set of mnemonics), and is pretty well documented in (e.g.) Volume 1 of the '71' IDS. > > Roger Ivie > ivie@cc.usu.edu > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 25 11:52:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > I had just discovered, after several years of neglecting my ][+, that bit > rot had set in on a fair number of disks and I wanted to put the data > somewhere safe. I've been really lucky in that respect. All my disks seem to be working fine even after 10 years (tap on silicon). I still even have my first two Dysan floppies that my friend gave me for my computer class in 9th grade. Haven't booted them in a while though. I know of a way to fix bad sectors on Apple // disks that requires a little luck. I wrote a sector editor a long time ago that I used for all my hacking. This editor allowed me to read and write sectors very easily. I disabled the checksum verification in DOS so that when it came upon a bad sector it wouldn't barf. It would just read whatever data it found and then throw it up on the screen. I could tell if a sector wasn't right by the look of its bytes in ASCII with relation to sectors around it. I got very good at this. Whenever I found a bad sector on one of my disks, I would run my sector editor, jump to the bad sector then continually read it until I saw what I liked and then wrote it back out. Worked like a charm. This would usually fix the problem, which was caused by acute bit rot. This obviously won't work on disks that have just plum gone bad, but I've had a phenomanol (shit can't spell today) success rate. If anyone wants to do this, you stick an $18 in $B942 (from the monitor B942: 18) which disables the DOS sector checksum verification. Of course you must use a sector editor which uses the DOS in memory. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From walgen at do.isst.fhg.de Thu Jun 26 12:13:59 1997 From: walgen at do.isst.fhg.de (Stefan Walgenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: Help identifying ... Message-ID: <01BC819C.60BECE90@dhcp9.do.isst.fhg.de> Hi, today I got a special german (?) computer. It is a "SIEMENS PC100". But inside there is a board labled "R6500 ADVANCED INTERACTIVE MICROCOMPUTER" it is made by "ROCKLWELL" with a small (thermo?) printer a one-line display. Is this one of the legendary AIM65-Machines? From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 25 12:21:03 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <199706251721.AA16555@world.std.com> > What worries me is that in a lot of cases, the older machines are more > useable than the modern Wintel equivalents. This applies both to a new > user (somebody who just wants to write 2 page letters does _NOT_ (or > should not) need a 166MHz Pentium with 16Mbytes of RAM), and to 'hackers' > who want to understand their machines. It's possible for one person to > complete understand both the hardware and software of most classic > computers - something that (IMHO) is not possible with a Wintel box. Same here. In reality I use my s100 crate, ampro, and sb180 to produce 8048/9 and 8051 code as they really are faster and easier to use. Also being as I have them interconnected it's easier to blast proms in the s100 crate. Efficient, very! I've had nearly 20 years to refine the code and tools! I have the advantage of having source code for those tools so and long latent bugs are easily squashed. This is not doable on PCs. I still do my banking/checkbook on the kaypro! Faster than the PC overall. Allison From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 25 12:25:01 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: Help identifying ... Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2054DD907@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Yes, it is. Kai > ---------- > From: Stefan Walgenbach > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 10:13 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Help identifying ... > > Hi, > > today I got a special german (?) computer. It is a "SIEMENS PC100". > But inside > there is a board labled "R6500 ADVANCED INTERACTIVE MICROCOMPUTER" > it is made by "ROCKLWELL" with a small (thermo?) printer a one-line > display. Is this one of the legendary AIM65-Machines? > From rcini at msn.com Wed Jun 25 12:19:15 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: Computer Documentation Message-ID: Marvin: I, too, like to have documentation for my various holdings. I have copies of the service manuals for the Radio Shack Model I, the Commodore PET 4032, the VIC-20 and (I think) the VIC 1541 floppy drive. I'd like to get copies of the schematics for the Altair, the IMSAI, and anything related to the System 23/Datamaster. If you need these, I can have copies made. As far as ROMs are concerned, maybe we can start a "ROM Archive" database/repository. Members with EPROM programmers could make copies of known-good ROMS from various machines at the request of other members. However, there is a major pitfall: version control. Unless someone has an idea as to which ROM versions go with each hardware revision, there is a risk of incompatibility. Although, what's the worst that can happen -- it doesn't work. As far as Copyright concerns, I don't think that there are any. First, many of our target companies are out of business. Second, we are not selling these chips (and the software contained therein) in a commercial sense. Third, they're being used as a one-for-one replacement for defective firmware. I view it like a diskette: I own Norton Utilities with a bad disk 1. My friend also owns Norton Utilities, and he makes me a copy of his disk 1. Both of us have valid software licenses because we both bought the program. It's like preservation of matter. Rich Cini/WUGNET - MCPS Windows 95/Networking - ClubWin Charter Member Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:56:15 -0700 From: Marvin To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: Computer Documentation Message-ID: <33B0346F.3FFC@rain.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the things *I* like to have available is the documentation, particularly schematics, on the things that I have. As such, there are docs and schematics on quite a bit of stuff here but there are also a lot of holes. I'm not sure how the copyright laws apply to machines where the company has ceased to exist, but it would be great to be able to exchange documentation as needed. Things I have machine schematics on include: From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jun 25 12:37:29 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: I love WinTel! In-Reply-To: <199706251721.AA16555@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970625133729.00a0b370@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Allison J Parent said: >> What worries me is that in a lot of cases, the older machines are more >> useable than the modern Wintel equivalents. This applies both to a new >> user (somebody who just wants to write 2 page letters does _NOT_ (or >> should not) need a 166MHz Pentium with 16Mbytes of RAM), and to 'hackers' >> who want to understand their machines. It's possible for one person to >> complete understand both the hardware and software of most classic >> computers - something that (IMHO) is not possible with a Wintel box. >Same here. In reality I use my s100 crate, ampro, and sb180 to produce >8048/9 and 8051 code as they really are faster and easier to use. Also >being as I have them interconnected it's easier to blast proms in the >s100 crate. Efficient, very! I've had nearly 20 years to refine the code >and tools! I have the advantage of having source code for those tools so >and long latent bugs are easily squashed. This is not doable on PCs. > >I still do my banking/checkbook on the kaypro! Faster than the PC overall. I love my PC! I've got a Cyrix 6x86-P150+ Running MS-DOG, running: (drum roll, please! ) My Tandy CoCo3 emulator! I have the fastest CoCo in a 50 mile radius! Running the disk EDTASM package for that computer is... well... kludgy. (Please, no flames... no computer's perfect!) The (relatively) slow boot times for the software, plus other factors in setting up the environment to run an ML proggie gives me a boot assembler / load software / make changes & compile / reboot to fresh / run ML / watch computer crash / reboot & start over. This cycle takes 10-20 minutes on my CoCo3, but takes 2-5 minutes on Goon. Also, as the only eprom burner I have is on wifey's '286, I can save my wonderful (in my eyes! ;-) ML creations to an IBM floppy, and burn them on the '286 so I can plug 'em into one of my 3 (soon to be 5) CoCo's. Not to mention having access to optical storage (MO and soon to have CD-RW) -- great fixes for bit-rot, so my CoCo's can go for another 50 years! Mind you, I use this tool to enhance my CoCo-ing, not to replace it. If anyone wants info on how to purchase the CoCo3 emulator, just ask! See ya, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Wed Jun 25 12:44:00 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: ROM ARCHIVE (was computer documentation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gret idea on the ROM archive. However, the work involved would be quite little... as almost every ROM image has already been pulled and stored in a PC or Mac readable image... Mainly with the recent boom in emulator technology. These ROMs can then be written back to 'real' rom chips in most cases. Well, that's all I have right now. CORD COSLOR Archive Software //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > Marvin: > > I, too, like to have documentation for my various holdings. I have copies of > the service manuals for the Radio Shack Model I, the Commodore PET 4032, the > VIC-20 and (I think) the VIC 1541 floppy drive. I'd like to get copies of the > schematics for the Altair, the IMSAI, and anything related to the System > 23/Datamaster. If you need these, I can have copies made. > > As far as ROMs are concerned, maybe we can start a "ROM Archive" > database/repository. Members with EPROM programmers could make copies of > known-good ROMS from various machines at the request of other members. > However, there is a major pitfall: version control. Unless someone has an idea > as to which ROM versions go with each hardware revision, there is a risk of > incompatibility. Although, what's the worst that can happen -- it doesn't > work. > > As far as Copyright concerns, I don't think that there are any. First, many > of our target companies are out of business. Second, we are not selling these > chips (and the software contained therein) in a commercial sense. Third, > they're being used as a one-for-one replacement for defective firmware. I view > it like a diskette: I own Norton Utilities with a bad disk 1. My friend also > owns Norton Utilities, and he makes me a copy of his disk 1. Both of us have > valid software licenses because we both bought the program. It's like > preservation of matter. > > Rich Cini/WUGNET > - MCPS Windows 95/Networking > - ClubWin Charter Member > > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:56:15 -0700 > From: Marvin > To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Subject: Computer Documentation > Message-ID: <33B0346F.3FFC@rain.org> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > One of the things *I* like to have available is the documentation, > particularly schematics, on the things that I have. As such, there are > docs and schematics on quite a bit of stuff here but there are also a > lot of holes. I'm not sure how the copyright laws apply to machines > where the company has ceased to exist, but it would be great to be able > to exchange documentation as needed. Things I have machine schematics > on include: > > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 25 13:59:13 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 25, 97 09:52:25 am Message-ID: <9706251759.AA06358@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 622 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970625/9504a165/attachment.ksh From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 25 12:40:52 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: Computer Documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > As far as ROMs are concerned, maybe we can start a "ROM Archive" > database/repository. Members with EPROM programmers could make copies of > known-good ROMS from various machines at the request of other members. Good idea. I think someone's thrown this out before. Anyone want to volunteer to coordinate? > As far as Copyright concerns, I don't think that there are any. First, many > of our target companies are out of business. Second, we are not selling these > chips (and the software contained therein) in a commercial sense. Third, > they're being used as a one-for-one replacement for defective firmware. I view > it like a diskette: I own Norton Utilities with a bad disk 1. My friend also > owns Norton Utilities, and he makes me a copy of his disk 1. Both of us have > valid software licenses because we both bought the program. It's like > preservation of matter. Let's put it this way: if you don't tell anyone, I won't. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From william at ans.net Wed Jun 25 13:03:14 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: ROM ARCHIVE (was computer documentation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706251803.AA16197@interlock.ans.net> > Gret idea on the ROM archive. However, the work involved would be quite > little... as almost every ROM image has already been pulled and stored in > a PC or Mac readable image... Mainly with the recent boom in emulator > technology. These ROMs can then be written back to 'real' rom chips in > most cases. What format would these images be? S-records? William Donzelli william@ans.net From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 25 13:08:15 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: H8 References: <3.0.2.32.19970625075557.007cb740@mail90> Message-ID: <33B15E8F.1AD1@rain.org> Glenn Roberts wrote: > > did your haul include the *source code* listings for HDOS? HDOS was one of > the few OS'es for which one could get source listings back then (of course > there was also UCSD Pascal). I'd love to pursue the possibility of posting > these on the internet somewhere if we could get permission from Zenith Data > Systems (I presume they're the owners of rights to this now?) There's > already a fair amount out there that's been reverse engineered but why not > make the original available? > Yes, there are two volumes of listings for the HDOS source code. I don't know if it is on disk there or only in printed form, but it would be nice to make that listing available! From dlw at neosoft.com Wed Jun 25 14:47:04 1997 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: Places in Austin TX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199706251848.NAA26266@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> Hello, I'm heading to Austin TX to pick up a system this weekend and I was wondering if anyone here knew of any good places there to find systems, doc, etc. Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Wed Jun 25 13:45:32 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: IBM System/36 In-Reply-To: <33B15E8F.1AD1@rain.org> Message-ID: I have a chance to get a System/36. It lacks boot disks, but has most of the documentation. It's not too big, and has an interesting panel. Anyone know what it is? Or how to set it up? It's at my workplace, going to be sold. I don't know if it's worth getting or not. (It currently costs $200). From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed Jun 25 15:05:37 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: Archiving Stuff Message-ID: Hi all. Consider Classiccmp Web/FTP open for your archiving pleasure ;). The process has been more or less tested out and is ready to go. Submissions of Software, Documentation, ROM code, whatever are all OK. What really remains to be done is to work out standards for file formats. I'll let those of you who are experts on specific platforms argue that out. I'll follow whatever ensues and firm up some guidelines. To submit something you need to download the form DS-form.txt from the FTP site (140.142.225.27) and fill it out to the best of your ability. Follow the instructions at the bottom of the form for uploading. All the form does is provide evidence (if anyone ever complains) that I'm not just uploading copyrighted material without a care. Anyway - if you're itching to archive stuff feel free. Your comments are welcome and also unavoidable ;) Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 25 15:48:35 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2054F8839@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Hey, figuring out standards like this is what I do. I recommend: JPEG for photo scans (brochures, ads, etc.) - It's the Internet photo file format standard Compressed 1-bit, 300 dpi TIFF for schematics - Almost everything supports TIFF, including tons of shareware and Wang's free image processing add-on for Win95 (http://www.microsoft.com/windows95/info/wang.htm) - 1-bit means monochrome (not grayscale). Use JPEG for images. - Images should be 300 dpi, 8 1/2" x 11", i.e. 2550 x 3300 (don't worry about scanning white space, it takes no space at all when compressed) TXT for text documents that don't use formatting - 80-column with carriage returns please RTF (Rich Text Format) for text documents that use formatting - WordPerfect, Word, WordPad, etc. will save in this format Kai > ---------- > From: Bill Whitson > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 1:05 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Archiving Stuff > > Hi all. > > Consider Classiccmp Web/FTP open for your archiving pleasure ;). > > The process has been more or less tested out and is ready to go. > Submissions of Software, Documentation, ROM code, whatever are all > OK. > > What really remains to be done is to work out standards for file > formats. I'll let those of you who are experts on specific platforms > argue that out. I'll follow whatever ensues and firm up some > guidelines. > > To submit something you need to download the form DS-form.txt from > the FTP site (140.142.225.27) and fill it out to the best of your > ability. Follow the instructions at the bottom of the form for > uploading. > > All the form does is provide evidence (if anyone ever complains) that > I'm not just uploading copyrighted material without a care. > > Anyway - if you're itching to archive stuff feel free. Your comments > are welcome and also unavoidable ;) > > Bill > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp > bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu > http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw > > From william at ans.net Wed Jun 25 16:26:40 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: IBM System/36 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706252126.AA28748@interlock.ans.net> > I have a chance to get a System/36. It lacks boot disks, but has most of > the documentation. It's not too big, and has an interesting panel. Like most IBM stuff - clean, conservative, well done. > Anyone know what it is? One of IBM's minicomputers from the 1980s. It replaced the System/34, but has been replaced by the AS/400s. > Or how to set it up? I do not know - I have been throwing things and breaking stuff trying to get RCS/RI's machine to boot. > I don't know if it's worth getting or not. (It > currently costs $200). Not at $200. Users are abandoning the minis (Systems/34, 36, and 38) in large crowds. I placed an ad looking for old IBMs (hoping to snag a 370 - right), and was offered quite a few free for hauling. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed Jun 25 07:47:45 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 25-Jun-97, Sam Ismail wrote: >I've been really lucky in that respect. All my disks seem to be working >fine even after 10 years (tap on silicon). I still even have my first >two Dysan floppies that my friend gave me for my computer class in 9th >grade. Haven't booted them in a while though. I've got plenty of original program disks for the Atari 800 that still work after nearly 15 years. In fact, at the one thrift store I frequent, I picked up a version of VisiCalc for the Atari 800, all original packaging, manuals, cards, disks and all! The outside cardboard sleeve is a little worn (afterall, it is from 1982), but the inside even smells new still. No wear on the pages or anything. I've yet to try to read the diskette though. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From tedbird at ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 25 16:21:57 1997 From: tedbird at ix.netcom.com (Ted Birdsell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 and more available for trade. References: <+t/qzQv6D0FS092yn@oslonett.no> Message-ID: <33B18BF5.5FB2@ix.netcom.com> Hi all, I have the following computers available for trade: IMSAI 8080 Osbourne Kaypro II Apple Lisa Apple /// Commodore CBM 4016 Commodore SX-64 I'm looking for other computers of equal vintage. Trades only, I won't sell them. The Altair Turnkey is no longer available - thanks for all the interest. Ted tedbird@ix.netcom.com From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Wed Jun 25 16:28:48 1997 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <199706252140.OAA22215@mx3.u.washington.edu> > > > Remember it? If it's what I am thinking of, I was doing it a couple of > > > weeks ago. You are talking about a 'Coconut', right (explanation of that > > > codename also on request - it has _nothing_ to do with the Tandy CoCo). > > > Nowadays I do something similar. I create a GROB with the right bit > > > patterns, use the SystemRPL 'Get' routine to remove the header, and thus > > > create new objects. No, not quite. The HP-41C used 2, 3 or 4 bytes to create the program steps. By forcing apart the bytes and substituting new ones, new ("synthetic") opcodes could be created. These ranged from creating new characters to being able to access areas of memory. Ah, the heady days of discovery! Mother HP wouldn't officially help, but there was plenty of behind-the-scenes help. From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Wed Jun 25 16:14:42 1997 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. Message-ID: <199706252140.OAA16017@mx4.u.washington.edu> > I am looking for > > IBM PC Junior > Apple II > TRS-80 (model I) I think I have a couple of trash-80's in the back room. One with disks, one without. Do they say "model 1"? (I don't know these at all) Does have a Lisa he/she wants to unload? I also have several, nice-condition Commodore boxes that I'd hate to pitch. As long as we're in the subject of trading, I have several years of PPC (HP programmable calculator user group) that I'd *love* to find a home for of...absolutely fascinating stuff, including the origin of Ulam's conjecture. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed Jun 25 08:10:51 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: Historical Research In-Reply-To: <199706250323.XAA13729@granite.sentex.net> Message-ID: On 25-Jun-97, Commercial Computing Museum wrote: >This is just information. I completed a reference tool that accomplishes >most of this for computers built between 1950 and 1979. It's called Domestic >Commercial Computing Power Between 1950 & 1979 (DCCP). It doesn't include >statistical data, but it does list every make and model of computers built >or sold by North American computer companies. It was self-published, but >you'll find reviews in upcoming issues of the Annals, Analytical Engine, >and the CBI newsletter. It's not available on the web and I have no plans >for that, but I am trying to make a CD version that would include >photographs, commercials/promotional video clips, sales literature, etc. Where is this available from? It certainly sounds interesting. >We could use a similar tool for the years 1980 onwards for commercially >available computers, but also for military computers, industrial control >computers, programmable communication controllers, etc. Another project that sounds worthwhile and interesting. The two together would nearly be a one-stop source for info on these systems. Do you plan to cover peripherals at all, or just the boxes themselves? Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From scott at saskatoon.com Wed Jun 25 17:48:18 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. In-Reply-To: <199706252140.OAA16017@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, PG Manney wrote: >> I am looking for >> TRS-80 (model I) > Do they say "model 1"? (I don't know these at all) No. They were originally known (and labelled) as the TRS-80 Microcomputer System. They later became known as the model 1 (Although I don't think they were ever labelled as such.) ttfn srw From BigLouS at aol.com Wed Jun 25 17:57:36 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: Apple II (wasDumpster Diving) Message-ID: <970625185735_846150438@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-22 05:13:35 EDT,maynard@jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) wrote: > I have an opportunity for an original Apple II. Keyboard > works, the system prom boots, but unfortunately he lost the disk > controller. He still has the old full height 5 1/4" drive, however. This > thing is quite dirty, and a few keys will have to be cleaned carefully > with alchol, but it looks good. I'm curious to know if I need to find > anything other than the floppy controller. Didn't Microsoft Basic come on > a prom card? Or was that on the floppy controller card? Or was there at > one point a mixed controller/BASIC card? Any Apple disk II controller will work. Apple originally offered an Integer basic card (which contained integer basic in rom) for the Apple II+ series. This solution was replaced by the 16K language card in slot 0. As part of the boot up sequence DOS 3.3 would determine which basic was resident in rom and load the other basic into the 16K on the language card. There was no mixed controller/basic card. Language cards are plentiful and cheap so you should have no trouble finding one. Hope this helps. Lou From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jun 25 18:14:35 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > No. They were originally known (and labelled) as the TRS-80 Microcomputer > System. They later became known as the model 1 (Although I don't think > they were ever labelled as such.) > Were there two different Model 1's? I have seen pictures of Model 1's that don't look like my Model 1. (i.e. no numeric keypad) Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From rcini at msn.com Tue Jun 24 20:30:12 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: Phil: I also have a "Datamasher", which did work at one point. Now, I can't seem to get it to boot from the Diagnostic Diskette. I don't know if the diskette is bad, or if the floppy is bad. I don't know if it is possible, but would you be willing to make a copy of a known-bootable disk and send it to me?? I'll cover the cost of postage. I'd also like to get some sort of operations manuals, but that is probobly not in the cards at this point. Anyway, when I first got the 23 (also known as the 5322; from a school in Gerogia), I made contact with John Kelley, whose wife worked on the Datamaster project. Below is a copy of the message thread. I thought that you might be interested... ================= #: 517922 S0/General [H] 07-Dec-94 18:27:07 Sb: #517503-#IBM 5322 Datamstr? Fm: Richard Cini 70153,3367 To: John Kelley 73467,450 (X) John: I do have several questions: 1: An historical Perspective -- What was IBM's original purpose for that machine?? I read somewhere that the Datamaster was supposed to be IBM's first 'personal computer' (which flopped after a short time, and was replaced with the IBM PC). If that's true, how long did IBM make the 5322? The PC was introduced in 8/81, but my 5322 has manufacturing date tags in late-1982. What was it like working on a project like that? I've always been fascinated by the thoughts of people who basically created a multi-billion-dollar industry, the market climate, as well as comparing the capabilities of those machines to today's. In fact, I collect old, historically-significant computers. 2: Was there any real software available for that machine, or was it around for too short of a time to garner any significant market support? 3: What was its specifications? I didn't take the whole thing apart yet, I just cleaned it up and turned it on to see if it worked. (Yes, it works!) 4: Do you have any of its documentation original; maybe a system manual or a system diskette? How about schematics or a service manual? 5: Anything else that you may find useful. Thanks so much for your (and your wife's) help! Regards... Rich There are 2 Replies. #: 518568 S0/General [H] 09-Dec-94 08:51:43 Sb: #517922-IBM 5322 Datamstr? Fm: John Kelley 73467,450 To: Richard Cini 70153,3367 (X) Richard, I will convey your questions to the expert and get back to you. I can tell you this regarding creating a multi-billion-dollar industry: the folks doing the development work were too busy with heavy overtime in the trenches to have much opportunity for "big picture" thinking. IBM had a very structured software development process. Back to you later, - John K. #: 519705 S0/General [H] 12-Dec-94 08:52:04 Sb: #517922-IBM 5322 Datamstr? Fm: John L. Kelley 73467,450 To: Richard Cini 70153,3367 (X) Rich, Things were busy this weekend but I did get some info for you. The System 23 (Datamaster) was indeed the first move towards a PC. It was the first IBM product to use a non-IBM processor, namely the Intel 8085. Interestingly, this fact is what made the product revolutionary within IBM, and a threat to some. Apparently there was much conflict internally over the non-Blue processor. Some say that the only reason the product saw the light of day was that Frank Cary (then chairman of IBM) had gotten convinced by the backers of the system. Otherwise it would have died of attacks from the entrenched interests. It was actually IBM's first attempt at a PC. IBM provided business software: billing, accounts payable and receivable, general ledger, inventory, report-writer, etc. IBM provided telephone support through an Atlanta location to users of this software. The "real" PC came along right on its heels and so it never saw large volume, but thousands of users called the support lines, so it was in use. There may have been third party software as well. Some of the managers and developers who worked on this product also worked on the development of the real PC. The 23 apparently started shipping in 1980, and was still being sold when the IBM PC emerged. Big brother was then eclipsed by little brother. We don't seem to have much documentation or info on specs but something may turn up. I'll have to get back to you on that. To me, the interesting thing is that this "PC version 0.5" was almost killed by internal interests, just as the real PC was almost killed. Good luck with your collection! - John K. ======================= ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 11:23:18 BST From: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: <9705238670.AA867090681@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Last week - while I was on holiday on the Noprfolk Broads - someone (I forget who) asked if there had ever been a microcomputer that used EBCDIC. Anyone else out there have one of these? Know any more about it? {etc.} Philip. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 25 18:40:01 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2055050E3@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> The Model I originally shipped without a numeric keypad. To the right of the main keyboard was a rectangular keypad-size plaque reading "Radio Shack TRS-80 Micro Computer System". The numeric keypad was added to later models, and was available as a retrofit kit for around $50. With the numeric keypad installed, the nameplate was moved to a horizontal plaque above the keyboard. The TRS-80 Model I lineage includes: Model I, 4K, Level I BASIC - This is a 3-piece system with the computer in the keyboard. It includes the system keyboard/cpu, monitor, tape drive (actually a rebadged regular Radio Shack portable cassette deck with no modifications), and power supply brick. Level I BASIC is similar to Tiny BASIC. I still have my Level I BASIC reference manual. Model I, 16K, Level II BASIC - The 16K and Level II upgrades went together. 16K is the maximum Model I memory in the system unit (8x 4116 DRAMs). Level II BASIC is similar to Microsoft BASIC/80 with functions added for things like the TRS-80's 128x48 memory-mapped monochrome graphics. Level II also added a keyboard debounce routine--Level I machines were very difficult for typists. Other Upgrades: - Expansion Interface Matching silver color, acts as a monitor stand, connects to system unit via ribbon cable. Contains dual floppy controller (WD chip), sockets for an additional 32K (2 banks of 4116 DRAMs) for a system maximum of 48K, and a parallel connection. 16K ROM BASIC occupied the remainder of the address space. The expansion interface also contains a card bay for an RS-232 interface. - RS-232 interface board For expansion interface. - Floppy drives Single-sided single-density, approx. 90KB free space. - Lower case upgrade Provides lower case capability. - Numeric keypad retrofit As discussed above Known TRS-80 Model I problems: - Unreliable cassette interface. Radio Shack later released a modification that improved this somewhat. The best option is a third-party unit called the Data Dubber by Microperipheral Corporation (I worked there!) that went in between the system unit and cassette and squared the wave. - Wonky, unbuffered connection to Expansion Interface. This went through various modifications, and some cables you'll see have big buffer boxes in the middle. Later Expansion Interfaces had built-in buffering. Some bought third-party expansion interface clones from Lobo and others. Be very careful if you get an Expansion Interface without a cable. It might need the buffered cable, and it would be a pain to manufacture. - Bad data separator chip. The stock data separator was unreliable. Most people replaced theirs with a third-party improvement such as Percom's. - Unreliable connection for the Expansion Interface-mounted RS-232 board. This board slipped over vertical post connections and never made good contact. Most folks used third-party alternatives that worked off the cassette port. Kai > ---------- > From: Mr. Self Destruct > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 4:14 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. > > > On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > > No. They were originally known (and labelled) as the TRS-80 > Microcomputer > > System. They later became known as the model 1 (Although I don't > think > > they were ever labelled as such.) > > > > Were there two different Model 1's? I have seen pictures of Model 1's > that don't look like my Model 1. (i.e. no numeric keypad) > > Les > more@crazy.rutgers.edu > > > From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Wed Jun 25 18:57:06 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No, here's a clarification on the Model 1. Actually most original Model 1 computers, DIDn't have the keypad out to the right. Later versions did. There actually was a Model 1 Level 1 system that came out with 4k of memory. As time went on it evolved to the Level 2 system and commonly had 16 k with the expansion interface (which wasn't compatible with the Level 1 system). I also have a Model 1 that I put in a HEX keypad out to the right. CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > > No.. They were originally known (and labelled) as the TRS-80 Microcomputer > > System. They later became known as the model 1 (Although I don't think > > they were ever labelled as such.) > > > > Were there two different Model 1's? I have seen pictures of Model 1's > that don't look like my Model 1. (i.e. no numeric keypad) > > Les > more@crazy.rutgers.edu > > > > From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 25 13:07:57 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: CBM 900 Message-ID: Hello folks! What information is there on the CBM 900? I was mailed by someone who has a working one and is looking for more information on the machine. Any info would be lovely. Btw, his machine is apparently a prototype (it says so somewhere -- probably a sticker or something). Thanks, Alexios --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 25 20:18:26 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970625182204.685f9b3c@mail.crl.com> At 09:45 PM 6/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >> us, rather than simply because a machine is physically attractive, >> technically impressive, or financially successful. >Actually, some of the real dogs are just as fun and important. The Lisa, >for example, strikes out on all three (OK, two strikes and one foul) of the >above mentioned catagories, but is still a fascinating machine. Hey, waitaminnit.... The lisa is one of the best looking computers around! I think it's design is a classic! (Also, I think it was technically impressive -- I remember being very impressed upon seeing a demo in a little back room of the St. Francis hotel just before it was announced.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 25 20:18:44 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: Convergent Technology Computers Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970625182217.685f943e@mail.crl.com> At 11:33 PM 6/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >And don't forget the Workslate from Convergent. It was the slickest laptop Anyone know where to find one of these? I'd sure like to add one to my collection! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 25 20:18:55 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970625182229.685fa178@mail.crl.com> At 08:38 AM 6/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >technical - foul - It seems that the Lisa should do better here, but I > really think the engineers blew it. The original OS is too innovative, > so much that the computer is nearly unuseable. I wouldn't think that "too innovative" would result in a lesser rating for "technical" aspects (at least in the realm of computer history/collecting; the "real" world is a different matter (see "success"...)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 25 20:19:00 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:08 2005 Subject: Computer Trivia Game Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970625182233.685f9786@mail.crl.com> At 11:03 PM 6/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >I'm a trivia freak, and computer trivia's fun. Old computers are great Anyone remember a trivial-pursuit-like Computer Trivia game? It was being touted at one of the last West Coast Computer Faires here in San Francisco. Anyone have a copy? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From william at ans.net Wed Jun 25 20:38:45 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970625182204.685f9b3c@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: <199706260138.AA08197@interlock.ans.net> > Hey, waitaminnit.... The lisa is one of the best looking computers around! > I think it's design is a classic! Unfortunately, it was a classic design at the time - a lot of people thought it looked like a dumb terminal (VT100). > (Also, I think it was technically > impressive -- I remember being very impressed upon seeing a demo in a little > back room of the St. Francis hotel just before it was announced.) >I wouldn't think that "too innovative" would result in a lesser rating for >"technical" aspects (at least in the realm of computer history/collecting; >the "real" world is a different matter (see "success"...)) That is why I call it a foul - they gave the ball a real smack, but into the side seats. Using the 68000 was a big step, far more powerful than what powered most desktop machines at the time. The problem is that Apple tried to do too much with the poor chip. As a system, it really is no good (I am going to catch at least one rotten peach for this). The engineers should have seen this and cut down the operating system. Question for any Alto owners - was the original Xerox GUI machine just as slow? William Donzelli william@ans.net From pcoad at crl.com Wed Jun 25 20:47:00 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2054F8839@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: Kai, Nice initial stab at some standards. I am a little concerned that this is a bit PC-centric. I would like to make sure that those of us on the fringe (not using Windows machines or Macs) don't get left out. This may mean lowering the standards to be a little more inclusive. Maybe these are all cross-platform standards, I don't know. Can any of the VMS/AmigaOS/TOS/whatnotOS people read and write all of these formats? I'm not trying to start a religious war. I want to be able to make use of and possibly contribute to the archive. On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Hey, figuring out standards like this is what I do. I recommend: > > JPEG for photo scans (brochures, ads, etc.) > - It's the Internet photo file format standard xv can be used to view these so Unix/X is covered. > > Compressed 1-bit, 300 dpi TIFF for schematics > - Almost everything supports TIFF, including tons of shareware and > Wang's free image processing add-on for Win95 > (http://www.microsoft.com/windows95/info/wang.htm) > - 1-bit means monochrome (not grayscale). Use JPEG for images. > - Images should be 300 dpi, 8 1/2" x 11", i.e. 2550 x 3300 (don't worry > about scanning white space, it takes no space at all when compressed) > I'm not so sure that "everything" supports TIFF. After a little looking, I couldn't even find a TIFF file to test with xv. Is there a reason that postscript cannot be used? Most of the schematics out there that I have seen have been postscript files. > TXT for text documents that don't use formatting > - 80-column with carriage returns please Text is good. > > RTF (Rich Text Format) for text documents that use formatting > - WordPerfect, Word, WordPad, etc. will save in this format > Is there anything under Unix which can read and/or write RTF? Why not use postscript for publishing the formatted documents? --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Jun 25 21:14:36 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff) Message-ID: <199706260212.VAA12360@challenge.sunflower.com> Whats wrong with plain old ascii text. ---------- > From: Paul E Coad > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff) > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 8:47 PM > > > Kai, > > Nice initial stab at some standards. I am a little concerned that this > is a bit PC-centric. I would like to make sure that those of us on the > fringe (not using Windows machines or Macs) don't get left out. This > may mean lowering the standards to be a little more inclusive. > > Maybe these are all cross-platform standards, I don't know. Can any of > the VMS/AmigaOS/TOS/whatnotOS people read and write all of these formats? > > I'm not trying to start a religious war. I want to be able to make use > of and possibly contribute to the archive. > > On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > Hey, figuring out standards like this is what I do. I recommend: > > > > JPEG for photo scans (brochures, ads, etc.) > > - It's the Internet photo file format standard > > xv can be used to view these so Unix/X is covered. > > > > > Compressed 1-bit, 300 dpi TIFF for schematics > > - Almost everything supports TIFF, including tons of shareware and > > Wang's free image processing add-on for Win95 > > (http://www.microsoft.com/windows95/info/wang.htm) > > - 1-bit means monochrome (not grayscale). Use JPEG for images. > > - Images should be 300 dpi, 8 1/2" x 11", i.e. 2550 x 3300 (don't worry > > about scanning white space, it takes no space at all when compressed) > > > > I'm not so sure that "everything" supports TIFF. After a little looking, > I couldn't even find a TIFF file to test with xv. > > Is there a reason that postscript cannot be used? Most of the schematics > out there that I have seen have been postscript files. > > > TXT for text documents that don't use formatting > > - 80-column with carriage returns please > > Text is good. > > > > > RTF (Rich Text Format) for text documents that use formatting > > - WordPerfect, Word, WordPad, etc. will save in this format > > > > Is there anything under Unix which can read and/or write RTF? > > Why not use postscript for publishing the formatted documents? > > --pec > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html > From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 25 21:59:00 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, PG Manney wrote: > >> I am looking for > >> TRS-80 (model I) > > Do they say "model 1"? (I don't know these at all) > No. They were originally known (and labelled) as the TRS-80 Microcomputer > System. They later became known as the model 1 (Although I don't think > they were ever labelled as such.) They were simply the TRS-80 Microcomputer System from 3Aug77 to 3Aug79, when the Model II was released. After that, they were never relabeled, they were discontinued at the end of 1980 when the FCC RFI rules kicked in -- but the Model III (successor to the Model One) had been announced on 3Aug80 along with the Color Computer and the Pocket Computer PC-1. (The Mod 1 and the Mod 2 had nothing in common except Z-80 processors -- the Mod 2 was a business machine from day one with its 512Kb SSDD 8" floppy expandable with up to three more in an external bay. Isaac Asimov wrote his last 150-200 books with one that's on display at the Science Fiction Shop in Greenwich Village -- I don't cross the Hudson often, but when I do I touch the machine, it's a shrine in its way -- I'd love to get permission to format a disk in its drive then bring it over to my own machine and boot it.) (And of course, that evolved into the Model 16 Xenix system, that started me on my career as a Unix sysadmin since I stopped being CSR for an RSCC). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe -- From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 25 22:06:27 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > No. They were originally known (and labelled) as the TRS-80 Microcomputer > > System. They later became known as the model 1 (Although I don't think > > they were ever labelled as such.) > Were there two different Model 1's? I have seen pictures of Model 1's > that don't look like my Model 1. (i.e. no numeric keypad) The last year or so, the keypad became standard. The machine had the option almost from day one to have the thing added, at least after Level II BASIC was brought out. The keypad, like the main keyboard, went from the original smooth-key surface to the textured surface that felt so much better and diddn't bounce. The keypad was _always_ standard on the Mod 3 -- I originally expected the Color Computer MultiPak interface to match the profile of the keyboard unit and provide a keypad as well as the expansion bus -- it annoyed me greatly when I was disappointed. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 25 23:09:47 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff) In-Reply-To: from "Paul E Coad" at Jun 25, 97 06:47:00 pm Message-ID: <9706260309.AA13442@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1893 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970625/3c9c1883/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 25 22:14:14 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores Message-ID: <199706260314.AA07404@world.std.com> > > really think the engineers blew it. The original OS is too innovative, > > so much that the computer is nearly unuseable. > > I wouldn't think that "too innovative" would result in a lesser rating fo > "technical" aspects (at least in the realm of computer history/collecting > the "real" world is a different matter (see "success"...)) Lest we forget the LISA was the Prototype system for the mac! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 25 22:14:23 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) Message-ID: <199706260314.AA07496@world.std.com> > The Model I originally shipped without a numeric keypad. To the right Correct. > of the main keyboard was a rectangular keypad-size plaque reading "Radio > Shack TRS-80 Micro Computer System". The numeric keypad was added to > later models, and was available as a retrofit kit for around $50. With > the numeric keypad installed, the nameplate was moved to a horizontal > plaque above the keyboard. Also correct. > > The TRS-80 Model I lineage includes: > > Model I, 4K, Level I BASIC > - This is a 3-piece system with the computer in the keyboard. It > includes the system keyboard/cpu, monitor, tape drive (actually a > rebadged regular Radio Shack portable cassette deck with no > modifications), and power supply brick. Level I BASIC is similar to > Tiny BASIC. I still have my Level I BASIC reference manual. The Basic was an 4k microsoft basic with floating point and simple arrays but no alphanumeric operators or transcendental functions. Tiny basic was an integer language of less than 4k. > Model I, 16K, Level II BASIC > - The 16K and Level II upgrades went together. 16K is the maximum Model > I memory in the system unit (8x 4116 DRAMs). Level II BASIC is similar wrong. Either could be installed alone. Generally LII with 4k was pretty cramped. FYI: the LII romset was only 12k. > to Microsoft BASIC/80 with functions added for things like the TRS-80's > 128x48 memory-mapped monochrome graphics. It was MS12k basic with TRS extensions (graphics). >Level II also added a > keyboard debounce routine--Level I machines were very difficult for > typists. The key bounce was a bug in the original 4k software, it didn't wait long enough. There was a cassette that when loaded fixed it. Me I'd clean the key contacts with a swab and some contact cleaner and get the same result. > - Expansion Interface > Matching silver color, acts as a monitor stand, connects to system unit > via ribbon cable. Contains dual floppy controller (WD chip), sockets > for an additional 32K (2 banks of 4116 DRAMs) for a system maximum of > 48K, and a parallel connection. 16K ROM BASIC occupied the remainder of > the address space. The expansion interface also contains a card bay for > an RS-232 interface. The bottom 16k was 12k of rom (LII basic) 1k of ram for video and keyboard mapped in to memory space. Some of the 4k space for the video and keyboard was wasted due to partial decode. The upside was since the keyboard was scanned by the cpu so alternate shift and character sets were easy to do. The down side is no matter how you tried, keyboard type ahead was impossible, the keyboard could not interrupt the CPU. > - RS-232 interface board > For expansion interface. The surface connector used was very cranky. > - Floppy drives > Single-sided single-density, approx. 90KB free space. The design used the 1771 internal data seperator which was not very tolerent of drive spped errors or data jitter. > - Lower case upgrade > Provides lower case capability. Way late in the game the "field mod" had been around over a year before tandy did it. > - Numeric keypad retrofit > As discussed above Popular item! > Known TRS-80 Model I problems: > > - Unreliable cassette interface. Radio Shack later released a > modification that improved this somewhat. The best option is a > third-party unit called the Data Dubber by Microperipheral Corporation > (I worked there!) that went in between the system unit and cassette and > squared the wave. There were two mods one largely marginal, the later one was very effective. I had a mod I did that worked very well and was far simpler. > - Wonky, unbuffered connection to Expansion Interface. This went > through various modifications, and some cables you'll see have big > buffer boxes in the middle. Later Expansion Interfaces had built-in > buffering. Some bought third-party expansion interface clones from Lobo > and others. Be very careful if you get an Expansion Interface without a > cable. It might need the buffered cable, and it would be a pain to > manufacture. The first version with the unbuffered or buffered cable was a junk design. the later one with local ras/cas timing was far better. > - Bad data separator chip. The stock data separator was unreliable. > Most people replaced theirs with a third-party improvement such as > Percom's. The stock circuit depended on the 1771 chips internal seperator, Even WD the chipmaker said don't do it! > - Unreliable connection for the Expansion Interface-mounted RS-232 > board. This board slipped over vertical post connections and never made > good contact. Most folks used third-party alternatives that worked off > the cassette port. Being there at the begining was half the fun. Allison From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jun 25 22:24:18 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: CBM 900 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > Hello folks! > > What information is there on the CBM 900? I was mailed by someone who has > a working one and is looking for more information on the machine. Any info > would be lovely. Btw, his machine is apparently a prototype (it says so > somewhere -- probably a sticker or something). > > Thanks, > Alexios Wasn't that one a Commodore attempt at a Unix machine? Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jun 25 22:33:27 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff) In-Reply-To: <9706260309.AA13442@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > RTF (Rich Text Format) for text documents that use formatting > > > - WordPerfect, Word, WordPad, etc. will save in this format > > > > Is there anything under Unix which can read and/or write RTF? > > No freeware that I know of. There may be some commercial products. > Or a more universal mark-up language which is also readable in ASCII? > (i.e. well-written HTML.) From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Wed Jun 25 22:34:27 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff) Message-ID: <970625223427.2040c427@wartburg.edu> >> Compressed 1-bit, 300 dpi TIFF for schematics >> - Almost everything supports TIFF, including tons of shareware and [technical stuff snipped] >I'm not so sure that "everything" supports TIFF. After a little looking, >I couldn't even find a TIFF file to test with xv. Is there anything for either OpenVMS/Alpha (No DEC/X-windows) or the Apple IIGS that can read TIFF? >> RTF (Rich Text Format) for text documents that use formatting >> - WordPerfect, Word, WordPad, etc. will save in this format How about HTML? That would likely be more readable for my shell account (though not all formatting would be displayed in Lynx). I suppose I could walk over to the computer lab and use a Mac or a PC if I *had* to. :) -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 25 23:07:56 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2055050E3@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > The Model I originally shipped without a numeric keypad. To the right > of the main keyboard was a rectangular keypad-size plaque reading "Radio > Shack TRS-80 Micro Computer System". The numeric keypad was added to > later models, and was available as a retrofit kit for around $50. With > the numeric keypad installed, the nameplate was moved to a horizontal > plaque above the keyboard. > The TRS-80 Model I lineage includes: > Model I, 4K, Level I BASIC > - This is a 3-piece system with the computer in the keyboard. It > includes the system keyboard/cpu, monitor, tape drive (actually a > rebadged regular Radio Shack portable cassette deck with no > modifications), and power supply brick. Level I BASIC is similar to > Tiny BASIC. I still have my Level I BASIC reference manual. Level I BASIC _was_ Tiny BASIC. > Model I, 16K, Level II BASIC > - The 16K and Level II upgrades went together. 16K is the maximum Model They wre available separately -- but a 4k Level II machine only left about 1800 bytes of free RAM -- not a pretty sight (And yes, I've seen it!) > I memory in the system unit (8x 4116 DRAMs). Level II BASIC is similar > to Microsoft BASIC/80 with functions added for things like the TRS-80's > 128x48 memory-mapped monochrome graphics. Level II also added a Amazing, though, how Big Five could use those graphics for the most amazing video games (and produce sound from the cassette port to match) -- it took the PC a couple of years to match it. > keyboard debounce routine--Level I machines were very difficult for > typists. Actually, the keybounce problem existed with Level II -- the keybounce fix was a tape to read originally into a Level II box -- there was never a fix for Level I (my own system the keybounce always came back -- I never used the tape, it ate a K of RAM I needed -- when I made the mistake of turning the keyboard upside down and dumping out the cigarette ashes , while they were there, apparently it smoothed the keyswitch operation adequately). There was a second release of Level II BASIC that included the debouncer in the 12K ROM. > Other Upgrades: > > - Expansion Interface > Matching silver color, acts as a monitor stand, connects to system unit > via ribbon cable. Contains dual floppy controller (WD chip), sockets > for an additional 32K (2 banks of 4116 DRAMs) for a system maximum of > 48K, and a parallel connection. 16K ROM BASIC occupied the remainder of > the address space. The expansion interface also contains a card bay for > an RS-232 interface. Dennis Kitsz did once publish an upgrade to 48k that could be done in a keyboard without the EI. I have no idea how many others built it, but I never had a problem with the alleged memory speed problems from the EI cable. Jerry Pournelle's gripes are another story. > - RS-232 interface board > For expansion interface. Worked better than an Apple serial card from the era. > - Floppy drives > Single-sided single-density, approx. 90KB free space. Geez, I remember spending $39.95 for my first 10-pack of SSSD 35-track disks. Amazingly, I years later formatted one of them in a Tandy 2000 DSQD drive (call it five years later) with full verify and got two bad tracks. Yeah, I should have hung onto the disk, put some data onto it, and tried to read that data a year later. But I was about to throw away the disk anyway, since it had shown errors on a Model 3. > - Lower case upgrade > Provides lower case capability. I _still_ don't understand that trade-off between cost and utility. The decision makers were gone before I joined the company in '80. > Known TRS-80 Model I problems: > > - Unreliable cassette interface. Radio Shack later released a > modification that improved this somewhat. The best option is a > third-party unit called the Data Dubber by Microperipheral Corporation > (I worked there!) that went in between the system unit and cassette and > squared the wave. It was more reliable than the cassette interfaces for the Apple or the Pet ot the Atari. _All_ cassette interfaces are unreliable. How many people used the cassette interface on an Apple for more than a week before they gave up and got a disk drive? How many people used the cassette interface on the Atari 400/800 for more than a day? Some TRS-80 users never felt the need: it was not as unreliable as most of the competition. Many Color Computer users noticed how much faster their cassette transfers were than Commodore disk drives that they didn't upgrade until OS-9 showed up and they _really_ needed disk drives. > - Wonky, unbuffered connection to Expansion Interface. This went > through various modifications, and some cables you'll see have big > buffer boxes in the middle. Later Expansion Interfaces had built-in > buffering. Some bought third-party expansion interface clones from Lobo > and others. Be very careful if you get an Expansion Interface without a > cable. It might need the buffered cable, and it would be a pain to > manufacture. Can't make excuses for this technically myself. That unbuffered cable carrying RAM signals was flat-out stupid. But remember that when the first machines were designed that the company (always retail driven) had _no_ idea that the damned things would sell, it was an experiment. Hell, Apple and Commodore had been advertising all year, and hadn't delivered more than a few eval and review units when Tandy announced the TRS-80 Microcomputer System on 3 Aug 77 with 5,000 units already in the warehouses -- idea was, since they didn't know if it would work, they had 5,000 stores -- if the silly things didn't move they'd figure out a way to use them. > - Bad data separator chip. The stock data separator was unreliable. > Most people replaced theirs with a third-party improvement such as > Percom's. The one Percom used came out after the design was final. > - Unreliable connection for the Expansion Interface-mounted RS-232 > board. This board slipped over vertical post connections and never made > good contact. Most folks used third-party alternatives that worked off > the cassette port. _Nothing_ was reliable in the Expansion Interface, ever. Not even the clock. And the Model III came out about the time most of the problems were solvable. Many companies phase out upgrades of systems that have been superceded -- when's the last time MicroSlough actually fixed one of the many problems that still exist in Windows 3.1? -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gmast at oboe.aix.calpoly.edu Thu Jun 26 00:02:37 1997 From: gmast at oboe.aix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: FS: Books, Books, Books! Message-ID: <33B1F7ED.32EC@oboe.calpoly.edu> I'm sorting through the boxes of "stuff" I have accumulated and I've saved a pile of books you folks might be interested in. I am selling them in lots because I don't have time to pack up and mail them out individually. Besides they're going cheap! Shipping via USPS Book Rate. Commodore Lot: The Manager - Commodore 64 C64 User's Manual Kids and the Commodore 64 Commodore 64 Favorite Programs Explained Re Run - Reprinted Articles from Jan to June 1984 - Run Magazine VIC 1541 User's Maanual More than 32 Basic Programs for the C64 Commodore 64 User's Handbook Commodore 64 Programmer's Reference Guide Turte Graphics II Instruction Manual Price $5, Shipping $4.25 Apple Lot: Critic's Guide to Software for Apple and Compatible Computers Apple II Super Serial Card Manual Apple II 80-Column Text Card Manual Extended 80-Column Text Card Supplement Apple II The DOS Manual Applesoft II Basic Programming Reference Manual Price $5, Shipping $4.25 Other Lot: 10 Starter Programs from Family Computing (Apple, Atari, etc, 1983) 1986 Radio Shack Software Reference and Tandy Computer Guide A Bit of Basic (Apple II, TRS-80) Price $2.75, Shipping $2.25 From gmast at oboe.aix.calpoly.edu Thu Jun 26 00:18:18 1997 From: gmast at oboe.aix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: FS: More cheap C= stuff, GEOS, Games Message-ID: <33B1FB9A.9DE@oboe.calpoly.edu> Sorry, I for got to aadd these to my last message. Also found some software. I've never used this stuff so it's an as-is deal. Geos Lot: Looks like a set of GEOS 2.0 and 1.2 Manuals for 1.2 and 2.0 Deskpak Plus (six applications for GEOS) Deskpak Manual 25 Blank 5-1/4 disks Price $5, Shipping $2.75 C-64 Game/Software Lot: Zork I or C64 with Manual Flight Simulator II in box w/manual AwardWare Graphics Starcross game w/manual Business Indoor Sports w/manual Into the Eagles Nest (WWII) Box of 12 misc disks w/some s/w Price $5, Shipping $2.75 From walgen at do.isst.fhg.de Fri Jun 27 00:26:23 1997 From: walgen at do.isst.fhg.de (Stefan Walgenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: CBM 900 Message-ID: <01BC8202.A90F29E0@dhcp9.do.isst.fhg.de> ---------- From: Alexios Chouchoulas[SMTP:alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk] Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 3:20 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: CBM 900 > What information is there on the CBM 900? I was mailed by someone who has > a working one and is looking for more information on the machine. What do you need? I have the Coherent-Disk the Manual and some technical diagramms for the C900. > Any info > would be lovely. Btw, his machine is apparently a prototype (it says so > somewhere -- probably a sticker or something). Yes ist is a prototype. According to Jim Brains "cbmmodel": C900 Series: Prototype UNIX System, dropped after Amiga acquisition Zilog Z8000 CPU, Runs Coherent 0.7.3, UNIX 7 clone, Built-In Floppy, HD, IEEE-488. MFM Disk Controller, 1MB 9600 bps, 500 units made. Came in two versions. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2583 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970627/675e4a62/attachment.bin From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Jun 26 01:03:35 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) In-Reply-To: Kai Kaltenbach's message of Wed, 25 Jun 1997 16:40:01 -0700 References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2055050E3@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199706260603.XAA08301@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Kai Kaltenbach writes: > Other Upgrades: You left out the TRS-80 Screen Printer, a widget that plugs into the connector otherwise used for the Expansion Interface. Hit the switch on the front of the printer, and it ejects a few inches of silvery electrostatic paper with the image on your screen zapped dark on it. My understanding is that it grabs the image right out of the screen memory. Somewhere I have some pages printed by one of these. As I recall they didn't last long as a product. I think I have two Radio Shack microcomputer catalogs from 1978 (one white/black/silver, one later one in full color) and the screen printer is only shown in the earlier catalog, but both are loaned out to someone who wanted to scan some pictures from them. (Hey Javier, are you reading this?) -Frank McConnell From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 26 08:41:50 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <199706252140.OAA22215@mx3.u.washington.edu>; from "PG Manney" at Jun 25, 97 5:28 pm Message-ID: <199706260741.9349@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > > > > Remember it? If it's what I am thinking of, I was doing it a couple > of > > > > weeks ago. You are talking about a 'Coconut', right (explanation of > that > > > > codename also on request - it has _nothing_ to do with the Tandy > CoCo). > > > > Nowadays I do something similar. I create a GROB with the right bit > > > > patterns, use the SystemRPL 'Get' routine to remove the header, and > thus > > > > create new objects. > > No, not quite. The HP-41C used 2, 3 or 4 bytes to create the program steps. Absolutely. We are talking about the same thing. 'Coconut' was the HP code name for the HP41C (and 'Halfnut' was the later model using the smaller CPU board AFAIK). > By forcing apart the bytes and substituting new ones, new ("synthetic") > opcodes could be created. The famous 'byte grabber'.... > These ranged from creating new characters to being able to access areas of > memory. > Ah, the heady days of discovery! Mother HP wouldn't officially help, but > there was plenty of behind-the-scenes help. Of course if you were a real hacker you had an M-code box that let you write the native 10 bit (?) instructions for the 41's CPU (I forget what it's called). The trick with a Grob is a 48 series trick for creating objects (code objects, systemRPL prgrams, Arrays of things other than real/complex, etc) directly on the machine without needing any other software or a PC to download them from. It's the logical replacement of synthetic programming on the more recent machines. > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 26 03:37:24 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) In-Reply-To: <199706260603.XAA08301@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 25 Jun 1997, Frank McConnell wrote: > You left out the TRS-80 Screen Printer, a widget that plugs into the > connector otherwise used for the Expansion Interface. Hit the switch > on the front of the printer, and it ejects a few inches of silvery > electrostatic paper with the image on your screen zapped dark on it. > My understanding is that it grabs the image right out of the screen > memory. Yes, the screen printer wouldn't work with an EI. It needed full unbuffered access to video RAM, and it read it off the bus. It didn't screw anything up as I recall, it worked fine with Level I or II BASIC but naturally not with Disk BASIC. Try to imagine what it was like to try getting a program listing from the damned thing. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 26 06:22:52 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: CBM 900 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > Wasn't that one a Commodore attempt at a Unix machine? Yes, but I don't know anything else about it, except for the fact that it used a 16bit Zilog CPU. Would a prototype of such a machine be a real find? Alexios --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From bwit at pobox.com Thu Jun 26 05:48:35 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) Message-ID: <01BC81FE.2A0B6F40@ppp-151-164-37-139.rcsntx.swbell.net> >>modifications), and power supply brick. Level I BASIC is similar to >> Tiny BASIC. I still have my Level I BASIC reference manual. >The Basic was an 4k microsoft basic with floating point and simple >arrays but no alphanumeric operators or transcendental functions. >Tiny basic was an integer language of less than 4k. IIRC Level I Basic was floating point but it was not a Microsoft product. Only Level II Basic came from Microsoft. In fact the source for Level I Basic was later released and I think I have a copy of it in storage somewhere. Regards, Bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1661 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970626/67e1a71d/attachment.bin From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jun 26 08:43:19 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Composite output Message-ID: <199706261339.IAA17112@challenge.sunflower.com> Got a simple question. God I hope it's simple and does not turn out to be an advocacy question. Im planning my "museum" setup. I have alot of machines that were simply designed only to work on Color TV's. Is it possible to just tap the input's before they get to the RF modulator {built in} and use a composite monitor, of which I have dozens? Otherwise I've got to buy, scrounge, find, about 9 color tv's. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 26 14:45:58 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Composite output In-Reply-To: <199706261339.IAA17112@challenge.sunflower.com>; from "Bill Girnius" at Jun 26, 97 8:43 am Message-ID: <199706261345.17802@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Got a simple question. God I hope it's simple and does not turn out to be > an advocacy question. Im planning my "museum" setup. I have alot of > machines that were simply designed only to work on Color TV's. Is it > possible to just tap the input's before they get to the RF modulator {built > in} and use a composite monitor, of which I have dozens? Otherwise I've > got to buy, scrounge, find, about 9 color tv's. In general, yes you can. I did it on my (UK, so PAL) Tandy CoCo 2 for many years. Sometimes you need a 1 or 2 transistor video amplifier, and it often helps to turn off the termination switch (labelled '75 Ohm'?) at the monitor - the video stage that drives the modulator will often not drive a 75 Ohm load (and if you keep the cables short reflections are not a real problem). Give it a go. You're unlikely to damage anything. > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 26 09:22:04 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) Message-ID: <199706261422.AA20415@world.std.com> > > modifications), and power supply brick. Level I BASIC is similar to > > Tiny BASIC. I still have my Level I BASIC reference manual. > > Level I BASIC _was_ Tiny BASIC. NO IT WAS NOT. LEVEL-I basic was the same basic sold by gates for the altair just a later revision level. IT was little, it ws limited but to did have floating point math and a few otehr things not found in tiny basics of the time. Tiny BASIC was one of several basics that were integer math only and far more limited and generally smaller too. Once upon a time there were three basics from MS, 4k, 8k, 12k extended, disk (~23k), and compiled(bascom). L1 was 4k and LII was the 12k extended with mods. > Dennis Kitsz did once publish an upgrade to 48k that could be done in a > keyboard without the EI. I have no idea how many others built it, but I > never had a problem with the alleged memory speed problems from the EI > cable. Jerry Pournelle's gripes are another story. It was never memory speed it was ras/mux/cas timing that was marginal. after about late 79 the design was substantually changed to derive the signals loacally in the EI. stacking 32k more in the keyboard was a trivial task. IF you didn't mind staking the chips three high and skywiring the cas/ lines for the added chips to a decoder. It did work well. > > - RS-232 interface board > For expansion interface. > > Worked better than an Apple serial card from the era. The RS card worked excellent if the connector did! > I _still_ don't understand that trade-off between cost and utility. The > decision makers were gone before I joined the company in '80. INthe trs 80 case some of it was the lack of decision making by other than marketing/sales types. I was there from 74-79 and helped launch and fix the trs80 > > It was more reliable than the cassette interfaces for the Apple or the Pe > ot the Atari. _All_ cassette interfaces are unreliable. How many people Generally speaking all audio cassette interfaces were poor. Some were poorer than others. I'd tried digital (saturation recording) using a modified trs80(all the analog gone) and it was absolutely reliable. The recorder electronics were no more complicated than athe audio just different. > more than a few eval and review units when Tandy announced the TRS-80 > Microcomputer System on 3 Aug 77 with 5,000 units already in the > warehouses -- idea was, since they didn't know if it would work, they had > 5,000 stores -- if the silly things didn't move they'd figure out a way The first year of sales exceeded 250,000! > The one Percom used came out after the design was final. The percom design existed at least a year before the design was started. It was straight out of the wd1771 data sheet! From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 26 09:22:19 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) Message-ID: <199706261422.AA20587@world.std.com> > Level I BASIC was _NOT_ a Microsoft BASIC. It was a fairly straight > rendition of Tiny BASIC. Unless I've been lied to for many years. The > Tiny BASIC published in Interface Age did have floating point, though not > much precision. You were lied to. ;-) I have the IA articles for TB and TBX along with DDJ and BYTE. tiny basic was integer. There were several small basics that fit in 4k that were not like L1 (different mix of capability) or were MS 4k clones. Technically it was MS4k. I'd used the altair version and the TRS80 and they were Identical! > The keybounce was a bug in the hardware. Mine always came back when I > turned the keyboard upside down and dumped out a few months worth of > cigarette ashes. A week later the problem would go away. (Proof that I > didn't grow up in a clean-room computer environment -- I was 23 and out > of the USAF when I got that Mod I in '78). Wrong. I was doing systems design for a terminal company while at RS(i was not in sales). That terminal company used the exact same keyboard. Switches bounce, debounce is simple you detect closure wait a few MS and verify closure if the verify fails the switc is open. The 4k basic didn't wait long enough but, beniding the contacts to change their dynamics was often enough. The verification if this is I clocked off a pulse gen and at 1.15mhz the bounce would go away! The delay rountine was in software so slowing the cpu was enough to make the dely longer and it would behave. some of the speed mods made it worsse unless LII was in there. I still have my trs80 hackboard (much modified and mangled) that I used to test various and sundry ideas. Of course when Tandy has launched the trs80 I'd had my altair up and running for some time with a TTY, ct1024 (64x16 upper only) and PR40 printer for a while. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 26 10:00:15 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) Message-ID: <199706261500.AA27046@world.std.com> > >The Basic was an 4k microsoft basic with floating point and simple = > >arrays but no alphanumeric operators or transcendental functions. > =20 > >Tiny basic was an integer language of less than 4k. =20 > > IIRC Level I Basic was floating point but it was not a Microsoft = > product. Only Level II Basic came from Microsoft. In fact the source = > for Level I Basic was later released and I think I have a copy of it in = > storage somewhere. I pulled my notebooks from 76/77/78 and yes RS called it Tiny but, is was not. Tiny basic was the generic name given to ALL integer basics. At the time the only source available basic that was floating point was LLLbasic (lawence livermore labs) which as 8080 code fit in 5k of rom. I suspected at the time it could be a z80 recode for space, no match. Of the tiny basics palo alto TB (1976) was well known and fit in 2k of rom without IO drivers. It didn't match L1. My files indicate that the basic was most closely that of MITS altair basic 4k (pre- MS) by gates/allen. Techically is was not MS. It was at least looking at my notebook significantly identical. That particular basic was an early lost one and after about 79-80 its not seen in MSbasic docs. I suspect it was due to it being pre MS and having allens hand in it. FYI mits 4k basic was small enough to fit in 4k of ram and still hold the video and keyboard drivers. Allison From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jun 26 10:39:48 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: atari800xl Message-ID: <199706261536.KAA24878@challenge.sunflower.com> anyone know the video pinouts so I can build a cable for this? i just learned it has a video output. From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jun 26 10:50:42 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: atari800xl FOUND it! Message-ID: <199706261547.KAA25412@challenge.sunflower.com> Monitor Jack (all but 400, North American 600XL, XE Game System): 3 1 5 4 2 1. Composite Luminance (not on North American 600XL's) 2. Ground 3. Audio Output 4. Composite Video 5. Composite Chroma (not on 800XL,1200XL; grounded on 600XL) ---------- > From: Bill Girnius > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: atari800xl > Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 10:39 AM > > anyone know the video pinouts so I can build a cable for this? i just > learned it has a video output. From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 26 11:25:10 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970626092848.3f077494@MAIL.CRL.COM> At 06:47 PM 6/25/97 -0700, you wrote: >I'm not so sure that "everything" supports TIFF. After a little looking, >I couldn't even find a TIFF file to test with xv. And my experience has been that TIFF is not always the same, especially Mac vs. PC. >Is there a reason that postscript cannot be used? Most of the schematics >out there that I have seen have been postscript files. [...] >Why not use postscript for publishing the formatted documents? Postscript is fine for Macs, not so great for PC's, and probably unusable for most older (pre-pc) machines. I'm not so worried about the images, but the formatted text should be kept readable. I'm not super-familiar with RTF, but isn't it just tags (like HTML)? If so, than a "reader"(?) could be written, even for CP/M or TRS-DOS or whatever... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From starling at umr.edu Thu Jun 26 13:43:24 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706260138.AA08197@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Jun 25, 97 09:38:45 pm Message-ID: <199706261843.NAA04446@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > Unfortunately, it was a classic design at the time - a lot of people > thought it looked like a dumb terminal (VT100). If you think about it, though, the case design is quite nice for sitting on a desktop. It's footprint is at least half that of an IBM PC, if you discount the dedicated space required for the mouse. Also I think I read somewhere that they purposefully designed it to look like a "business-like" dumb terminal to get around the "hobbyist/home computer" reputation of the Apple IIs. I'd also guess that secretaries (who the machine was designed for) would feel more comfortable with a new system if it looked like their old one. > That is why I call it a foul - they gave the ball a real smack, but into > the side seats. Using the 68000 was a big step, far more powerful than > what powered most desktop machines at the time. The problem is that Apple > tried to do too much with the poor chip. As a system, it really is no > good (I am going to catch at least one rotten peach for this). The > engineers should have seen this and cut down the operating system. Actually, I've always felt that they didn't do ENOUGH with the 68000. They clocked the poor thing at 5Mhz... it could have happily taken 8, but the story goes that at the time they were designing the Lisa, the 68000 wasn't out yet. So Motorola gave them a 68000 "emulator" which was a box with a bunch of discrete components in it that did effectively what the chip would do... but it only ran at 5Mhz. In using my own Lisa, it really isn't that sluggish. Especially if you compare it to a Mac 128 or 512. The filesystem on the Lisa is VERY advanced and allows for recovery from errors that'd hork other filesystems. It has memory protection which keeps it from being as flakey as the early Macs (and later Macs :), and it truely multitasks instead of just lame task-switching like it's Macintosh cousin. The only other machine to squeeze as much out of a 68K would have to be the Amiga 1000 & 500. And it had helper processors to help keep meanial things like graphics, sound and disk access from bothering the CPU. The one thing that the Mac has over the Lisa, however, is SOUND. The Lisa's sound system is about the same as the Apple II. Beep, Boop. BTW, Allison, the Lisa wasn't actually a PROTOTYPE for the Mac. Rather it was the sister machine to the Mac. The Lisa and Mac projects stemmed from the same research, with the Mac project splitting off from the Lisa project shortly after its inseption. I'm not sure of all the politics behind the separate projects but apparantly they had quite a bit of competition between the two. The Lisa project was supposedly comprised of mostly older guys that'd worked for HP, IBM and other "old school" companies and did things the "old school" way. The Macintosh project was allegedly new guys that weren't steeped in the old traditions of big machines and just did things less methodicly. This is evident if you take appart a Lisa and a Mac side by side. The Lisa has a motherboard with CPU on daughterboard design, like an old mini or something... nice and modular with thumbscrews... no screwdrivers needed. Steve Jobs supposedly supported the Lisa throughout this battle, naming the machine after his daughter (it also stood for something... Logically Integrated System... Uhhh???). He felt it was the better machine with better software and would prevail over the Mac and the IBM PC. However, when things started looking bad for her, he jumped ship and started pushing the Mac. Overall, it was the Lisa's pricetag that is most responsible for its demise, I think. At $10,000, it was considerably more expensive than a similarly configured (1M RAM, 10M HD) IBM PC, which was probably $5,000-8,000. However, the Lisa still lives on. Every time you pull down a window you're using Lisa technology. Lisa was also the first to have an integrated office suite which could cut-n-paste between apps. Xerox provided much of the inspiration, but Lisa polished the GUI into a usable system. It's really quite impressive for a machine designed 78-81 and released in 82. > Question for any Alto owners - was the original Xerox GUI machine just as > slow? Saw one on TV once, but I'm not sure what the Alto's processor was. But as I recall, it's GUI wasn't as flashy. Not a rotten peach... but I had to say a few words about my favorite machine. My girlfriend Holly was quite upset when I started calling her Lisa after purchasing my Lisa 2/5. But if anyone has a working Lisa Lite board(floppy controller), I'm in the market for one. :) *ling From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 26 19:56:34 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706261843.NAA04446@saucer.cc.umr.edu>; from "starling@umr.edu" at Jun 26, 97 1:43 pm Message-ID: <199706261856.17667@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> [...] > In using my own Lisa, it really isn't that sluggish. Especially if you > compare it to a Mac 128 or 512. The filesystem on the Lisa is VERY > advanced and allows for recovery from errors that'd hork other > filesystems. It has memory protection which keeps it from being as What did they do in that filesystem? I am curious because the PERQ, which was another machine that came from the Xerox PARC work also had a very interesting filesystem under POS (the first OS that was written for it). In particular : Files are linked lists of blocks. The sector header of each sector on the hard disk contains pointers to the previous and next blocks in the file, along with some other info that I've forgotten Files may be sparse - the fact that block n exists does not mean that block n-1 does Block 0 of each file (I think, maybe block -1) contains the 'file descriptor' - bascially an i-node. Negative block numbers are the file allocation map. You can use this to quickly find any block in the file without following the links. Directories are sparse files. When you access a file in a directory, the filename is hashed in some way (the algorithm is not in the manual), and the hash value is used as the first directory block to look in. If the 'file descriptor' gets mangled it can be recreated from the header pointers. If the header pointers get mangled they can be recreated from the file descriptor. Ditto about other important structures on the disk - loss of any single one is generally recoverable using standard utilities. Were any of those things done on the Lisa? > *ling -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From spc at armigeron.com Thu Jun 26 14:03:32 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706261843.NAA04446@saucer.cc.umr.edu> from "starling@umr.edu" at Jun 26, 97 01:43:24 pm Message-ID: <199706261903.PAA29967@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great starling@umr.edu once stated: > > BTW, Allison, the Lisa wasn't actually a PROTOTYPE for the Mac. Rather it > was the sister machine to the Mac. The Lisa and Mac projects stemmed from > the same research, with the Mac project splitting off from the Lisa > project shortly after its inseption. I'm not sure of all the politics > behind the separate projects but apparantly they had quite a bit of > competition between the two. The Lisa project was supposedly comprised of > mostly older guys that'd worked for HP, IBM and other "old school" > companies and did things the "old school" way. The Macintosh project was > allegedly new guys that weren't steeped in the old traditions of big > machines and just did things less methodicly. This is evident if you take > appart a Lisa and a Mac side by side. The Lisa has a motherboard with CPU > on daughterboard design, like an old mini or something... nice and modular > with thumbscrews... no screwdrivers needed. Steve Jobs supposedly > supported the Lisa throughout this battle, naming the machine after his > daughter (it also stood for something... Logically Integrated System... > Uhhh???). He felt it was the better machine with better software and > would prevail over the Mac and the IBM PC. However, when things started > looking bad for her, he jumped ship and started pushing the Mac. The LISA was the computer designed after Apple had a peek at Xerox PARC. I'm not sure who ran the department, but I think it may have been Jobs, trying to work on the Apple ][ replacement. Jobs has always denied the machine being named after his (illegidament) daughter (although it is rumored that he did anyway). The Macintosh was originally the brainchild of Jef Raskin and the initial design was an information appliance based originally on the 6809 (my personal favorite 8-bit CPU) and text based. But, politics being what they are, Jobs was more or less forced from the day to day operations of running the company, as Mike Markula felt that what Apple didn't need was a loose Jobs running around [1]. So, to keep Jobs out of the way, Markula took the Macintosh from Raskin and gave the project to Jobs, who then wanted to make an information appliance with a GUI, using the LISA GUI/OS as a base. Raskin left shortly thereafter (around '81 or '82) to do his own thing, while Jobs bullied his crew to make the Macintosh into what we know and love today. When introduced, it was intended that Macintosh development would be done on a LISA, as it was a much more capable machine, but the price killed it. Now, speaking of Jef Raskin, he later went on to make the Swyftcard for the Apple ][. I've heard the description and ever since, I've been wanting to either obtain a working Apple ][ with a Swyftcard (plus the documentation) or failing that, just the documentation alone would be of interest to me. Has anyone here ever worked with the Swyftcard? I'd like more information about it. -spc (Wish more companies did documentation like Raskin did ... ) [1] From what I've read, Jobs is an egotistical bully who would go around, talking about other employees behind their back, and even go up to an employee and call their work "shit" and that "he could do better". Not the type of person I would work for. He would rub people the wrong way, and Markula felt it would be better for the company (not to mention morale) if Jobs wasn't around. Not that I blame Markula any. From starling at umr.edu Thu Jun 26 15:31:52 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Lisa's Filesystem... In-Reply-To: <199706261856.17667@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 26, 97 07:56:34 pm Message-ID: <199706262031.PAA28920@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > > What did they do in that filesystem? > I've always wondered myself. :) I've only been able to find general information about the filesystem. I know that the filenames that the user used weren't the actual filenames, but just "tags" that referenced the actual filename (presumably some sort of serial number). This allowed the user to make a copy of a file and have the copy retain the same name as the original. For some reason, this seemed more "logical" and in keeping with the desktop metaphor to the Lisa designers. I understand that most Unix filesystems do this sort of thing, but I think I skipped class the day we talked about filesystems in my operating systems class. And I also know that it has extensive abilities to rebuild it's filesystem if something gets hurt. But I'm not sure of the technical aspects of it. I've been meaning to go to my university's library and research the Lisa, because I know we've got several old computer magazines back to issue 1. And I'm pretty sure that the IEEE had an article about the Lisa's architecture in their journal sometime around 1983. Heh. They also have a book about how to build your own Z80 machine... that's another one I've been meaning to check out. But it really sucks since the Library is only open from like 8am to midnight. Who ever heard of a university library that's not 24-hours?? Anyway... starling From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 26 15:33:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706261843.NAA04446@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 starling@umr.edu wrote: > However, the Lisa still lives on. Every time you pull down a window > you're using Lisa technology. Lisa was also the first to have an > integrated office suite which could cut-n-paste between apps. Xerox > provided much of the inspiration, but Lisa polished the GUI into a usable > system. It's really quite impressive for a machine designed 78-81 and > released in 82. Actually, Xerox had a working GUI-based system (the name eludes me at the moment) well before the LISA, which is where Jobs got his inspiration from. So your comment about windows being based on Lisa technology is not fair to Xerox. Of course Bill would disavow any knowledge of both of these machines and tell us that Windows is, in fact, the One True God. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jun 26 16:16:45 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706261843.NAA04446@saucer.cc.umr.edu> References: <199706260138.AA08197@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Jun 25, 97 09:38:45 pm Message-ID: <9DB9A80566F@ifrsys.com> > > Question for any Alto owners - was the original Xerox GUI machine just as > > slow? > > Saw one on TV once, but I'm not sure what the Alto's processor was. But > as I recall, it's GUI wasn't as flashy. > I think my wife used one when she started working for UCLA in the mid '80s. It was a huge tower cabinet sitting on the floor, with a colossal 21" monochrome crt and laser printer/copier. Window / mouse action response was a tad lethargic, as I remember. Someone later told me that Xerox used their own cpu, specially designed for this kind of work: It was caled the MESA cpu. jeff From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 26 22:03:11 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <9DB9A80566F@ifrsys.com>; from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jun 26, 97 3:16 pm Message-ID: <199706262103.21326@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Someone later told me that Xerox used their own cpu, specially > designed for this kind of work: It was caled the MESA cpu. That's probably correct. I was once inside a Xerox 1108 (it was running interlisp-D when I finally got it to boot), and the CPU was 1 or 2 boards of chips. Unfortunately they were all house-coded (they had Xerox part numbers, not ones I could identify), but I remember there being 4 40 pin devices which I suspect were 2901 4bit bit-slice ALUs, and a lot of what looked like TTL and probably some RAM as a control store around them. > > jeff > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From starling at umr.edu Thu Jun 26 16:07:08 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 26, 97 01:33:58 pm Message-ID: <199706262107.QAA07118@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > > However, the Lisa still lives on. Every time you pull down a window > > you're using Lisa technology. Lisa was also the first to have an > > integrated office suite which could cut-n-paste between apps. Xerox > > provided much of the inspiration, but Lisa polished the GUI into a usable > > system. It's really quite impressive for a machine designed 78-81 and > > released in 82. > > Actually, Xerox had a working GUI-based system (the name eludes me at the > moment) well before the LISA, which is where Jobs got his inspiration > from. So your comment about windows being based on Lisa technology is > not fair to Xerox. Of course Bill would disavow any knowledge of both of > these machines and tell us that Windows is, in fact, the One True God. I'm well aware of this. I mis-typed when I said "pull down window" I meand "pull down menu". This feature was unique to the Lisa, as was other GUI concepts essential to GUIs we know and hate today. But other things like the window, icon, mousepointer, changing mousepointer (from arrow to hourglass, to "I" bar, to whatever) were all blatantly stolen from Xerox. One of the things that originated in the Lisa GUI that never was used anywhere else was the concept of a "pad of paper". In order to create a new LisaWrite document, you "tore off" a pice of LisaWrite paper off the LisaWrite pad. Kind of an odd concept... not particularly useful. Okay... I'll shut up about the Lisa now... :) -starling From mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu Thu Jun 26 16:08:11 1997 From: mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu (Matthew P. Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706262103.21326@club.eng.cam.ac.uk>; from A.R. Duell on Thu, Jun 26, 1997 at 10:03:11PM +0000 References: <9DB9A80566F@ifrsys.com> <199706262103.21326@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <19970626160811.64171@beret.cs.utexas.edu> On Thu, Jun 26, 1997 at 10:03:11PM +0000, A.R. Duell wrote: > Unfortunately they were all house-coded (they had Xerox part numbers, not > ones I could identify), but I remember there being 4 40 pin devices which > I suspect were 2901 4bit bit-slice ALUs, and a lot of what looked like TTL > and probably some RAM as a control store around them. Does anyone have information / know where I could find information on building a computer using 2901's? I know they were fairly common and I have (I'm almost positive) a few of the bare chips laying around home. m@ -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@cs.utexas.edu -- Austin, Texas (512)457-0086 -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 26 22:13:22 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <19970626160811.64171@beret.cs.utexas.edu>; from "Matthew P. Sayler" at Jun 26, 97 4:08 pm Message-ID: <199706262113.21601@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Does anyone have information / know where I could find information on > building a computer using 2901's? I know they were fairly common and > I have (I'm almost positive) a few of the bare chips laying around > home. Well, there's the AMD 2900-series data book if you can still find a copy. There's enough info in there if you already know how to design a microcoded system to make one using the 2901's, etc. I suppose a good technical manual on a machine that used them would be a good starting point as well. Be warned that you need a lot more than the 2901's. They're just the ALU and registers. You also need some kind of control store sequencer (AMD would like to you use the 2909, 2910 or 2911), a microprogram (either stored in ROM or RAM) and a lot of glue logic. I suppose you _could_ go for a hardwired instruction decode, but you still need a sequenncer for your machine code program What I would love to see are the Application Notes for the 2900 series. I am told there's some fun stuff in some of them - Unibus SMD controllers etc. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Jun 26 16:11:08 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706262107.QAA07118@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 starling@umr.edu wrote: > > Actually, Xerox had a working GUI-based system (the name eludes me at the > > moment) well before the LISA, which is where Jobs got his inspiration Was it Smalltalk? I got a picture of that, somewhere... From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jun 26 16:44:10 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Xerox (RE: Lisa's scores) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20553B314@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> The first GUI system was the Xerox Alto. It was desk-sized. The commercial model was the Xerox Star, which was somewhat smaller (c.1977) The Xerox Alto appears to have introduced: - Bitmapped displays - BitBLT raster operations - Cursor changes to show system mode - GUI menus and Popup menus - Overlapped windows - Tiled windows - Scroll bars - Push buttons, radio buttons, check boxes - Dialog boxes - Multiple fonts and styles visible in text - Cut/Copy/Paste with a mouse The Lisa UI appears to have introduced: - Pull-down menus - Menu bars - Disabling (graying) of menu items - Command-key shortcust for menu items - Check marks on menu items The book "Fumbling the Future: How Xerox Invented, Then Ignored, the First Personal Computer" by Douglas Smith and Robert Alexander, states that Xerox voluntarily offered the UI elements to Steve Jobs. Apple does not appear to have "stolen" the ideas. Kai > ---------- > From: Daniel A. Seagraves > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 2:11 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Lisa's scores > > On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 starling@umr.edu wrote: > > > > Actually, Xerox had a working GUI-based system (the name eludes me > at the > > > moment) well before the LISA, which is where Jobs got his > inspiration > > Was it Smalltalk? > I got a picture of that, somewhere... > From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Thu Jun 26 16:46:25 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Altair Emu In-Reply-To: References: <199706261843.NAA04446@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970626224625.006e7fa0@post.keme.co.uk> Who wants a Altair Emulator 17k?? Shall i uploaded it to the group Steve Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 26 18:15:03 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Altair Emu In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970626224625.006e7fa0@post.keme.co.uk> from "steve" at Jun 26, 97 10:46:25 pm Message-ID: <9706262215.AA09959@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 293 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970626/19685e9a/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Thu Jun 26 17:23:01 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706261843.NAA04446@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: <199706262223.AA02594@interlock.ans.net> > Also I think I read somewhere that they purposefully designed it to look > like a "business-like" dumb terminal to get around the "hobbyist/home > computer" reputation of the Apple IIs. I'd also guess that secretaries > (who the machine was designed for) would feel more comfortable with a new > system if it looked like their old one. That seems to make sense. > Actually, I've always felt that they didn't do ENOUGH with the 68000. > They clocked the poor thing at 5Mhz... it could have happily taken 8, > but the story goes that at the time they were designing the Lisa, the > 68000 wasn't out yet. So Motorola gave them a 68000 "emulator" which was > a box with a bunch of discrete components in it that did effectively what > the chip would do... but it only ran at 5Mhz. The very first 68000s, the XC series production samples, are 4 MHz. The emulator probably was only designed to support up to this speed. Apple was probably pushing things at 5 MHz. > In using my own Lisa, it really isn't that sluggish. Especially if you > compare it to a Mac 128 or 512. The filesystem on the Lisa is VERY > advanced and allows for recovery from errors that'd hork other > filesystems. It has memory protection which keeps it from being as > flakey as the early Macs (and later Macs :), and it truely multitasks > instead of just lame task-switching like it's Macintosh cousin. Oh yes, it did have a real operating system (OK, the memory management was not great, but considering Motorola had not introduced the 68K MMUs, not bad). > However, the Lisa still lives on. Every time you pull down a window > you're using Lisa technology. Lisa was also the first to have an > integrated office suite which could cut-n-paste between apps. Xerox > provided much of the inspiration, but Lisa polished the GUI into a usable > system. It's really quite impressive for a machine designed 78-81 and > released in 82. With a little more horsepower, it really could have been something special. William Donzelli william@ans.net From cerebral at michianatoday.com Thu Jun 26 17:57:32 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores Message-ID: <22573222300120@michianatoday.com> >Files are linked lists of blocks. The sector header of each sector on the >hard disk contains pointers to the previous and next blocks in the file, >along with some other info that I've forgotten >Files may be sparse - the fact that block n exists does not mean that >block n-1 does >Block 0 of each file (I think, maybe block -1) contains the 'file >descriptor' - bascially an i-node. >Negative block numbers are the file allocation map. You can use this to >quickly find any block in the file without following the links. From dlormand at aztec.asu.edu Thu Jun 26 18:03:51 1997 From: dlormand at aztec.asu.edu (DAVID L. ORMAND) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <9706262303.AA28654@aztec.asu.edu> >And it was more than just the machine itself, but the culture that >spawned around it. The culture I am referring to mainly is the BBS >culture with all its lingo, the pirate groups who banded together and >cracked software, the holy wars with other computers. >The history behind the machine is what I am most interested in. What >company built it, what year it came out, what technology it used (its >processor, RAM, etc), what its predecessor and successor were, etc. I >like to know each machines historical perspective. Part of the thrill I have of being a TI junkie is BEING part of that history! The interesting part of the 99/4A is not so much the level of technology involved (although it IS there, relative to other home computers of the period) as the legend of how TI could make a market run with it, strain every nerve in true TI tradition, and then dramatically dump it when the effort finally proves to be too much. And now, I am part of the history of the TI-99/4A too, by perversely supporting it in preference to other (e.g. modern, more capable) platforms. -- ********************************************** * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * * dlormand@aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * **************************** TMS9900 Lives! * From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jun 26 18:07:42 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Floppy drive type for North Star controller? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205545261@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Hi all, Anybody know what type of drive I can connect to the popular North Star MDS-AD3 S-100 disk controller board? I'm confused with all of this old floppy terminology. I know single vs. dual density (FM vs. MFM) is determined by the controller, and soft vs. hard sectoring is determined by the controller, so neither of these should matter as far as the drive is concerned. What bothers me is single vs. double sided and all of those jumpers on 5 1/4" drives. Will dual sided drives work on single sided controllers, with only one side operating? Do those jumpers need to be set differently for different controllers, and how would I find documentation for the various brands (I'm sure I wouldn't!) Any advice appreciated, thanks Kai From dlormand at aztec.asu.edu Thu Jun 26 18:07:23 1997 From: dlormand at aztec.asu.edu (DAVID L. ORMAND) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <9706262307.AA28923@aztec.asu.edu> >What worries me is that in a lot of cases, the older machines are more >useable than the modern Wintel equivalents. This applies both to a new >user (somebody who just wants to write 2 page letters does _NOT_ (or >should not) need a 166MHz Pentium with 16Mbytes of RAM), and to 'hackers' >who want to understand their machines. It's possible for one person to >complete understand both the hardware and software of most classic >computers - something that (IMHO) is not possible with a Wintel box. >Same here. In reality I use my s100 crate, ampro, and sb180 to produce >8048/9 and 8051 code as they really are faster and easier to use. Also >being as I have them interconnected it's easier to blast proms in the >s100 crate. Efficient, very! I've had nearly 20 years to refine the code >and tools! I have the advantage of having source code for those tools so >and long latent bugs are easily squashed. This is not doable on PCs. >I still do my banking/checkbook on the kaypro! Faster than the PC >overall. For a while there, I was thinking maybe I'm in the wrong group. I see a LOT of traffic about restoring and collecting old computers, and the typical member here is one who has a large collection of different machines, but except for a rare question about boot disks, there isn't much said about using these machines. When I turn on my 99/4A or Geneve, it isn't primarily to bask in a nostalgic glow, but to write something or balance my budget or do some programming. Certainly the nostalgic glow is there, and it adds a dimension to the computing experience that peecee devotees cannot understand. But it IS my primary workhorse, not just a desk queen. Don't get me wrong; I love to hear about these old machines, so keep those messages coming. But I would like to hear from others out there who use their obsolete machines (I prefer "non-mainstream machines") for practical, everyday, household computing uses. In fact, I'm wondering how widespread my idea is (shared by a few, apparently) that the smaller, simpler machines really are well suited for home use, and you don't need a high-end peecee for nearly everything you want to do. -- ********************************************** * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * * dlormand@aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * **************************** TMS9900 Lives! * From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 26 19:18:41 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: Floppy drive type for North Star controller? In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205545261@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Jun 26, 97 04:07:42 pm Message-ID: <9706262318.AA01450@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1478 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970626/9b23d2cc/attachment.ksh From dynasoar at mindspring.com Fri Jun 27 08:04:01 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (dynasoar) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:09 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <9706262307.AA28923@aztec.asu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, DAVID L. ORMAND wrote: > > In fact, I'm wondering how widespread my idea is (shared by a > few, apparently) that the smaller, simpler machines really are well > suited for home use, and you don't need a high-end peecee for nearly > everything you want to do. > Here, here! I am totally in empathy with you, David, on this. I use many of the machines in my collection daily for various tasks; keeping private journal pages on the C-64's word processor, playing games on my PS2 Model 25, even surfing the 'Net and email on my XT in the kitchen! In fact, there are not many tasks in computing that I have found to REQUIRE a fast, modern PC with tons of memory and processor. Keep in mind that practically *all* of the tasks done on today's machines are exactly those that were done 15 years ago on the simpler machines. What *has* changed IMHO are the skills that the average user now brings to the interface. Click, point, drag, and drop require a lot less dexterity, concentration, and skill than learning keyboard commands, or having to be competent with an operating system in order to get it to do what you want it to. Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From rcini at msn.com Thu Jun 26 18:09:58 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: ROM Archive Message-ID: Sam and William: Here's what I think so far (which isn't much ): 1. Record format: open (depending on software for EPROM programmer); S-records, Intel Hex, binary. 2. Submission & storage: UUEncoded image file e-mailed to "repository"; ROM/EPROM chips sent by snail mail and returned. All submissions should have as much info about the source computer as possible (board revisions, date of mnaufacture, etc.) 3. Requests & withdrawls: by e-mail to those with programmers; by mail for those supplying their own chips; e-mail request with no chip sent. 4. Cost: nominal (cost of postage and EPROM). How does this sound so far?? ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking ------------------------------ What format would these images be? S-records? William Donzelli william@ans.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:40:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Sam Ismail To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Computer Documentation Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > As far as ROMs are concerned, maybe we can start a "ROM Archive" > database/repository. Members with EPROM programmers could make copies of > known-good ROMS from various machines at the request of other members. Good idea. I think someone's thrown this out before. Anyone want to volunteer to coordinate? > As far as Copyright concerns, I don't think that there are any. First, many > of our target companies are out of business. Second, we are not selling these > chips (and the software contained therein) in a commercial sense. Third, > they're being used as a one-for-one replacement for defective firmware. I view > it like a diskette: I own Norton Utilities with a bad disk 1. My friend also > owns Norton Utilities, and he makes me a copy of his disk 1. Both of us have > valid software licenses because we both bought the program. It's like > preservation of matter. Let's put it this way: if you don't tell anyone, I won't. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Thu Jun 26 18:38:55 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <970626183855.2040de1a@wartburg.edu> >I see a LOT of traffic about restoring and collecting old computers, >and the typical member here is one who has a large collection of >different machines, but except for a rare question about boot disks, >there isn't much said about using these machines. When I turn on my >99/4A or Geneve, it isn't primarily to bask in a nostalgic glow, but >to write something or balance my budget or do some programming. >Certainly the nostalgic glow is there, and it adds a dimension to >the computing experience that peecee devotees cannot understand. But >it IS my primary workhorse, not just a desk queen. That's part of what I love about my Apple IIGS. I'm the original owner. I know what this machine has done for me and continues to do for me. I love its simplicity. In the rare event of a crash, I pretty much know what the problem is, because I know the machine much better than anything Wintel came up with or any of the Macincrash line. >Don't get me wrong; I love to hear about these old machines, so keep >those messages coming. But I would like to hear from others out there >who use their obsolete machines (I prefer "non-mainstream machines") >for practical, everyday, household computing uses. Well, I'm a college student, so I use my IIGS for writing papers (though I transfer them to a Mac to print because my Imagewriter II isn't in good shape - I'll get around to fixing it one of these days). Mainly, I use it to connect to the campus computer system. I've also used it to run a BBS, play games, program - more than most people do with their PeeCees. >In fact, I'm wondering how widespread my idea is (shared by a >few, apparently) that the smaller, simpler machines really are well >suited for home use, and you don't need a high-end peecee for nearly >everything you want to do. You bet it is! This machine does everything I want or need it to do (or at least is capable of it, if I'm too cheap to buy things like a laser printer). -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From rcini at msn.com Thu Jun 26 18:17:31 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: IBM System/36 Message-ID: Dan: Although I have never seen one up-close, a company that I formerly worked for had a System 36. I think that it is one of IBM's older mainframes/minis that was the predecessor to the AS/400 (our S36 software ran unmodified on the AS/400). It's based on a TwinAx-based network and has terminals connected to it with snappy names such as the "3270" and the "5250". Line printers are also Twin-Ax based. I hope that this is the same one that I was thinking about (otherwise, ignore the above ). ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From spc at armigeron.com Thu Jun 26 19:29:22 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: from "dynasoar" at Jun 27, 97 08:04:01 am Message-ID: <199706270029.UAA31183@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great dynasoar once stated: > > In fact, there are not many tasks in computing that I have found to > REQUIRE a fast, modern PC with tons of memory and processor. Keep in mind > that practically *all* of the tasks done on today's machines are exactly > those that were done 15 years ago on the simpler machines. But it depends upon what you are doing. While in theory you could calculate e to 100,000 digits using an Apple ][, it might take upwards of a week for the results, and you couldn't use the computer in the meantime, whereas on modern machines, 100,000 digits could be generated in under an hour, and with the right OS, you could still work on other things [1]. And if you consider that a pretty bogus example, what about rendering (which I used to know as ray tracing)? Or photographic (or just graphic) manipulations? Granted, there are plenty of things that can still be done on older hardware, and in fact, I used to write a weekly humor column on a Coco in the late 80s. > What *has* changed IMHO are the skills that the average user now brings to > the interface. Click, point, drag, and drop require a lot less dexterity, > concentration, and skill than learning keyboard commands, or having to be > competent with an operating system in order to get it to do what you want > it to. What also has changed is the speed of computers, and the amount of memory. On the plus side, the increase in speed and memory has the potential to allow one to manipulate more data in less time. Unfortunately, programs (and operating systems) have bloated, which lessens the usefulness of fast CPUs and vast memory. Don't get me wrong, I like the older computers, if only because of what could be done with 1K, 4K, 16K or 64K. And they are conceptually simpler to understand and possibly even repairable. Not so with todays computers with proprietary VLSI chips that do everything. [1] Steve Wozniak wrote a program to calculate e to 100,000 digits on an Apple ][, using highly optimized assembly, which took advantage of mapping the problem to the 6502, and it still took 4 days. A year or so ago I wrote a version in C (based upon the 6502 code and his explanation of it [2]) and ran it on a 386-33Mhz running Linux and had an answer in under an hour. My, how time progresses 8-) [2] Byte, December 1981. From spc at armigeron.com Thu Jun 26 19:41:42 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <9706262307.AA28923@aztec.asu.edu> from "DAVID L. ORMAND" at Jun 26, 97 04:07:23 pm Message-ID: <199706270041.UAA31230@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great DAVID L. ORMAND once stated: > > >I still do my banking/checkbook on the kaypro! Faster than the PC > >overall. > > In fact, I'm wondering how widespread my idea is (shared by a > few, apparently) that the smaller, simpler machines really are well > suited for home use, and you don't need a high-end peecee for nearly > everything you want to do. > I no longer use my Coco for word processing, namely for two reasons: I don't have the space to set it up, and two, it's a bit sluggish (okay, I'm spoiled - I like having true lower case and a 80x25 screen). But I do use my other computers - a 386 for communications (as it can handle the 28.8kbps modem I have now), the Amiga for programming, the Data General 1 (lap top) when I travel and the Tandy 6000 for financial stuff (it has Multiplan on it, which I use from time to time). I'd use the uVax more often, but I need to get a new harddrive for it, and getting one with VMS 4.x pre-installed isn't that easy (not that I've tried really hard). I'd probably use it for CPU intensive projects, like ray tracing, and some development work (homebrew project: operating system of my own design). -spc (Fairly selective in the machines I collect - I don't have the time, money or space to collect machines ad-hoc. I like to use the machines I have) From cerebral at michianatoday.com Thu Jun 26 20:05:47 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <01054730800039@michianatoday.com> At 04:07 PM 6/26/97 -0700, you wrote: > > >>What worries me is that in a lot of cases, the older machines are more >>useable than the modern Wintel equivalents. This applies both to a new >>user (somebody who just wants to write 2 page letters does _NOT_ (or >>should not) need a 166MHz Pentium with 16Mbytes of RAM), and to 'hackers' >>who want to understand their machines. It's possible for one person to >>complete understand both the hardware and software of most classic >>computers - something that (IMHO) is not possible with a Wintel box. > >>Same here. In reality I use my s100 crate, ampro, and sb180 to produce >>8048/9 and 8051 code as they really are faster and easier to use. Also >>being as I have them interconnected it's easier to blast proms in the >>s100 crate. Efficient, very! I've had nearly 20 years to refine the code >>and tools! I have the advantage of having source code for those tools so >>and long latent bugs are easily squashed. This is not doable on PCs. > >>I still do my banking/checkbook on the kaypro! Faster than the PC >>overall. > >For a while there, I was thinking maybe I'm in the wrong group. > >I see a LOT of traffic about restoring and collecting old computers, >and the typical member here is one who has a large collection of >different machines, but except for a rare question about boot disks, >there isn't much said about using these machines. When I turn on my >99/4A or Geneve, it isn't primarily to bask in a nostalgic glow, but >to write something or balance my budget or do some programming. >Certainly the nostalgic glow is there, and it adds a dimension to >the computing experience that peecee devotees cannot understand. But >it IS my primary workhorse, not just a desk queen. > >Don't get me wrong; I love to hear about these old machines, so keep >those messages coming. But I would like to hear from others out there >who use their obsolete machines (I prefer "non-mainstream machines") >for practical, everyday, household computing uses. > >In fact, I'm wondering how widespread my idea is (shared by a >few, apparently) that the smaller, simpler machines really are well >suited for home use, and you don't need a high-end peecee for nearly >everything you want to do. > >-- >********************************************** >* David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * >* dlormand@aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * >**************************** TMS9900 Lives! * > I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am not a member of the dark force, I just have a multitude of machines, and I have EXPERIANCED running them, from an apple ][ +, C=64, IBM XT, and a 586-133. we must have an open mind about this, as there are some who still never ran anything NEW, and pass judgment about how bad a machine is when they have never used one. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jun 26 20:17:16 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Dead Cromemco - Help! Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205550910@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> My Cromemco System 3 won't power up. Help! Normally I would just pull it open and check the power supply voltages, but this is a problem because A) the case is incredibly difficult to get into, and B) I don't have the schematics. I'd like folks' assessment of probable problem causes before I tear into it (heck, it takes two people just to move the sucker!) Symptoms: The rear power switch glows when I turn it on. So far, so good. All fuses are OK. When I turn the front key (or hit the rear switch with the front key already ON) all I get is a faint internal click, and the power supply fan moves VERY slightly (maybe 1/8"). Somebody told me this is an AC fan, is this true? If so, either the fan is dead or the problem isn't the power supply. If the problem is the power supply, what's the likely culprit for this symptom? I peered into the back of the case with a flashlight (this is a BIG case) and the cap didn't appear to be leaking. Thoughts? thanks Kai From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 26 20:25:46 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores Message-ID: <199706270125.AA05953@world.std.com> > BTW, Allison, the Lisa wasn't actually a PROTOTYPE for the Mac. Rather i > was the sister machine to the Mac. The Lisa and Mac projects stemmed fro > the same research, with the Mac project splitting off from the Lisa It was my understanding at the time if you wanted to develop apps for the mac you needed a design kit and a lisa. Something to the effect that the lisa has the resources that were a bit short in the mac. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 26 20:25:53 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores Message-ID: <199706270125.AA06089@world.std.com> > Does anyone have information / know where I could find information on > building a computer using 2901's? I know they were fairly common and > I have (I'm almost positive) a few of the bare chips laying around > home. Find an old (early 80s) copy of the amd or motorola data books. These are bipolar 4 bit slices and can be used to make a fairly fast cpu (10mhz) of variying designs from 4 bit to over 64 bits. Warning microcoding can be habit forming. You will also want 2909/10/11 microcode sequencer chips. Those are less common. It's rather fun designing a cpu to your specs, hten of course you'll write all the other code too as it's one up design. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 26 20:26:08 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Floppy drive type for North Star controller? Message-ID: <199706270126.AA06399@world.std.com> > Anybody know what type of drive I can connect to the popular North Star > MDS-AD3 S-100 disk controller board? Sugart sa400l or similar. The MDS-AD3 was a dual density controller that aslo did two sided. Any of the 360 PC half height drives will work as will many of the older full height. Your limited to 5.25 as the media must be for ten sector hard sectoring. I have one here but it was given to me dead. I still run a MDS-A2 single density controller. FYI the are hard sector 10 sectors per track 256 or 512 bytes a sector. > dual density (FM vs. MFM) is determined by the controller, and soft vs. FM single density, MFM double density. > What bothers me is single vs. double sided and all of those jumpers on 5 > 1/4" drives. Will dual sided drives work on single sided controllers, Yes. > with only one side operating? Do those jumpers need to be set > differently for different controllers, and how would I find > documentation for the various brands (I'm sure I wouldn't!) Yes. The controller you identified is two sided capable and double density capable but the OS can be configured for various combinations. Allison From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 26 20:23:45 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 starling@umr.edu wrote: > > > > Actually, Xerox had a working GUI-based system (the name eludes me at the > > > moment) well before the LISA, which is where Jobs got his inspiration > > Was it Smalltalk? > I got a picture of that, somewhere... Smalltalk was the name of the object-oriented GUI language that was loaded onto the system. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 26 20:21:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: (fwd) 65816 computer (fwd) Message-ID: This is a message by John Harris I pulled off of the Atari 8bit newsgroup. John Harris, if you've ever read _Hackers_ by Steven Levy, wrote pretty awesome games for ther Atari 800. He later when on to start his own company which used Atari 8-bit computers as displays in airports and in the hotel industry for the guests services menu on the TV (read about it in a soft-book called _Halcyon Days_). Anyway, the system he describes here sounds pretty neat. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: jharris@poboxes.com (John Harris) Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.8bit Subject: 65816 computer Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:01:39 GMT Some of you may remember an anouncement I tried to make a few years back, but later had to keep quiet. It concerned a new atari-compatible computer made with a 65816 processor and some other cool stuff. It was being manufactured for a dedicated application that I actually never found out what it really was. I found out about it at a time when I was selling character generator software on the Atari8, and having immense difficulty obtaining Atari hardware. It was a great connection to make, and we are still selling these new systems with my CG software installed. The big project never materialized, since the company making the systems and Atari could never reach an agreement for large supply of Atari custom chips. It seemed like a no-brainer--Atari had chips, these guys had money, it should have been a simple exchange. It's no wonder Atari doesn't have any feet left. They keep shooting themselves there. Anyway, the bottom line is that Atari negotiations were the reason behind my silence at the time, and now that the project is completely dead I can make public the details of the machine for all those that are curious. It is based on a 5.37MHz 65816 processor, although it still runs 1.79MHz when accessing the base 64K of address space for compatibilty with the custom chips. It is in a nice case with internal 3.5 high density floppy and hard drive, parallel and serial, expansion slots, fully static memory (turn the power off and on, and everything is still there!), mouse support, and separate IBM-style keyboard. It has its own Sparta-like DOS, and with 65816 optimizations the memlo gets down to $FA3. I've found the compatibility to be extremely good, with two main problems. Some european programs, especially demos, use the undocumented 6502 extra instructions, and these don't work on the 65816 CPU. The other issue, is that there is no cartridge slot. Technically, it is feasible to add a slot using a plug in board, and run a connector out the back. It would probably depend on the number of interested parties for whether it was financially affordable to get the thing made. One nice thing about the slots though, they are physically the same as IBM 16-bit ISA cards. (but not electronically compatible of course). You can get experimenter boards for IBMs that just run power and have all other connections open. The do-it-yourself'er can do pretty much anything from here. Because of being a very low-production item, it is really expensive by 8-bit standards. Retail is $1800 with all options and the CG software. Obviously, it's only being sold to commercial applications like hotels and cable TV at that price. It is possible to make some deals if anyone is interested, especially for systems without the CG software. Obviously, I need to be fair to the people who are still buying the system for commercial use. I don't have any prices for you, but if anyone is interested at all, please let me know and I'll see what we can work out. If you're just curious for info, let me know that too. John Harris Japanese translation of Microsoft slogan: jharris@poboxes.com "If you don't know where you want to go, we'll make sure you get taken." From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 26 20:27:42 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: PCjr Cartridges? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970626183126.0ef76b32@mail.crl.com> Saw today a few cartridges which I'm guessing are PCjr carts. They said (among other things) "Cartridge BASIC". Anyone interested in them? They were (I think) a buck. They also had some misc Apple II cards (about $5 each, I think), some Atari 800 ROM's (or RAM? I didn't look that closely). Lemme know if there's any interest. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 26 21:33:43 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <9706262307.AA28923@aztec.asu.edu> from "DAVID L. ORMAND" at Jun 26, 97 04:07:23 pm Message-ID: <9706270133.AA02646@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1562 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970626/5a8f53b5/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 26 21:10:08 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Dead Cromemco - Help! In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205550910@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > My Cromemco System 3 won't power up. Help! Send it to me. I'll fix it. Then I'll send it back (when Hell freezes over, I wanted one of those the first day I saw it at the Mountain View Byte Shop in '78, but the damned bank wouldn't give the loan for slightly over my annual income to buy a properly fitted system -- plus I hadn't _had_ the job at Memorex that long, being fresh out of the USAF). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jun 26 20:56:35 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: old printers Message-ID: <970626215548_-1696695335@emout07.mail.aol.com> if anyone does actually collect old printers i've one available for the asking. its an hp2671a, a big and ugly thermal printer made in feb of 1993. prints the self test, but i cannot establish communication with mac, a //e or an xt through it's serial port no matter what the dip switches are set to. im in raleigh, nc and the printer weighs about 20lbs, so it's probably not worth shipping. if anyone wants it, give me a shout before i round file it. david. From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jun 26 21:08:39 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: PCjr Cartridges? Message-ID: <199706270206.VAA15824@challenge.sunflower.com> Im interested in the PCjr carts. I have the basic one, but I can post a list of what I have. ---------- > From: Uncle Roger > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: PCjr Cartridges? > Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 8:27 PM > > Saw today a few cartridges which I'm guessing are PCjr carts. They said > (among other things) "Cartridge BASIC". Anyone interested in them? They > were (I think) a buck. > > They also had some misc Apple II cards (about $5 each, I think), some Atari > 800 ROM's (or RAM? I didn't look that closely). Lemme know if there's any > interest. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From doug at the-one.com Thu Jun 26 23:27:56 1997 From: doug at the-one.com (Doug Rich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Northstar Software Message-ID: <199706270427.VAA05279@shell.wco.com> I was a northstar dealer for many years and have a box (about the size of a case of paper) full of northstar software on original disks. I am not sure what to do with them. I would like them to be of some use to someone. Any suggestions? Doug Remember... No mater where you go... there you are! From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 27 01:09:04 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Northstar Software In-Reply-To: <199706270427.VAA05279@shell.wco.com> from "Doug Rich" at Jun 26, 97 09:27:56 pm Message-ID: <9706270509.AA04706@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 645 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970626/90f653c9/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 27 00:16:17 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Dead Cromemco - Help! References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205550910@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33B34CA1.58FF@rain.org> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > My Cromemco System 3 won't power up. Help! > > Symptoms: > > The rear power switch glows when I turn it on. So far, so good. All > fuses are OK. When I turn the front key (or hit the rear switch with > the front key already ON) all I get is a faint internal click, and the > power supply fan moves VERY slightly (maybe 1/8"). > > Somebody told me this is an AC fan, is this true? If so, either the fan > is dead or the problem isn't the power supply. > According to the schematics I have, there are three 120VAC fans. The faint internal click is most likely the power relay. Also, according to what I am reading, there should be 3 LEDs mounted on the motherboard to show that the proper power is at least coming to the motherboard. It looks to me like they should be visible with the front panel swung open as they are located in the middle of the motherboard at the front. Since I am leaving to spend a few days on the Colorado River for Field Day (Amateur Radio event), I won't be checking my mail for a couple of days. If you are still having trouble, let me know as I have the schematics and System Manual. Also a friend of mine (who gave me my System Three and documentation) was a Cromemco dealer and might be able to offer some suggestions. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri Jun 27 08:59:06 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <01054730800039@michianatoday.com>; from "tiborj" at Jun 26, 97 8:05 pm Message-ID: <199706270759.15397@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a > modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full > photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am I have used 'modern' PC's (well, at least pentiums with 16 MBytes RAM, SVGA card, etc), and I know I'm not missing _anything_ by sticking to classic computers. Let's go through your points. 'Web pages in full photo quality colour'. Well, I access the web to get information, not look at pretty pictures. Most of the information I want is _text_, or at least monochrome graphics (things like IC data sheets). So I don't need 'photo quality colour'. And if I did, I could easily find a classic system that could display them. Evans and Sutherland, Grinnell, Ramtek, I2S, PPL, etc all made high-res colour displays that make most PC's look like toys. And you can pick one up second-hand for less than an SVGA card + monitor. 'Realistic games'. I don't play many games, but I'll agree that modern games running on modern hardware do _look_ a lot more realistic than the text+block graphics we had on home computers 15 years ago. The problem is that IMHO (and YMMV) the old games are just more fun to play. That's a personal judgement, though. 'PPP connections' Oh come on. I've run a PPP client on an _XT_. No problem at all. I'll happily believe they're available for other old machines as well. 'Realaudio' I assume that's some audio standard for modern machines. But we had good quality audio on PDP11's (thanks to a little board from 3RCC) in 1976. It's not exactly hard to add a DAC and a DMA engine or even a DSP to a lot of classic computers (and classic computer != cheap home micro so there's easily enough RAM space for a reasonable length sample). What I'd be missing by going to a modern machine would be : Documentation. Since I don't just run prepackaged software and plug in prebuilt hardware, I need good technical manuals. They just don't exist for most modern machines Repairability. I can fix classic computers with no problem at all. Just try getting a custom chip for a PC motherboard. And don't tell me to replace the motherboard - if the PC is a few years old I'd probably have to replace the CPU and memory as well. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From eifs at thenet.co.uk Fri Jun 27 03:31:23 1997 From: eifs at thenet.co.uk (Eifion Bedford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In message , "Daniel A. Seagraves" writes >On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 starling@umr.edu wrote: > >> > Actually, Xerox had a working GUI-based system (the name eludes me at the >> > moment) well before the LISA, which is where Jobs got his inspiration > >Was it Smalltalk? >I got a picture of that, somewhere... > Naah, Smalltalk was the first(?) object-orientated language, developed by Xerox and which I have to learn for my Open University course next year :-( [It looks incredibly complicated] -- Eifion Bedford - I prefer MCMXXX technology to MMX technology! From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 27 06:51:23 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, Eifion Bedford wrote: > Eifion Bedford - I prefer MCMXXX technology to MMX technology! That should perhaps be MCMLXXX - in 1930 there weren't any Z-80, 6502 or 6809 CPUs available. There _is_ a limit to how far back we can go with classic computers. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From bwit at pobox.com Fri Jun 27 05:49:28 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Northstar Software Message-ID: <01BC82C6.B4ED0920@ppp-151-164-41-165.rcsntx.swbell.net> >> I was a northstar dealer for many years and have a box (about the size >>of a case of paper) full of northstar software on original disks. I am not >>sure what to do with them. I would like them to be of some use to >>someone. >Don Maslin (a frequent contributor to comp.os.cpm) has proven to be >a remarkably able archivist of this sort of stuff. Among other >things, he has a huge archive of CP/M boot disks that he makes >available to those with orphaned machines. His e-mail >address is donm@cts.com. I would second this suggestion. Don has saved me on a number of occasions and I think he would be happy to archive and distribute the software to those who need it. Good call Tim. bw -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1742 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970627/ba977956/attachment.bin From David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov Fri Jun 27 08:02:56 1997 From: David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov (David_A._Vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <9705278674.AA867422030@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> I monitor this mailing list (some might call it lurking) because of all the now-classic machines that I used to own. If I had the room, time, and skill, I might be a collector like most of you, but for now I must be content to watch. I'm glad to see that so many people are still getting use out of these machines. There are certainly times when I wish I understood what was going on inside a Windows 95 box as well as I understood the various Kaypros, the Geneva, the Timex-Sinclair, the Model 100, or the other machines I once used on a daily basis. I suppose that even my Mac SE would qualify as a "classic machine" by now. On the other hand, let's not go overboard and say that you can do as much with those lean, mean computers of yesteryear as you can with today's bloated and overpowered desktop Cadillacs. Despite the processing power and overhead devoted to being more user friendly, today's machines are better at doing most kinds of real work. Okay, if you're just writing business letters or balancing your checkbook, a Kaypro is going to work just as well as a Dell Pentium. But that's only one extreme. When I was working on my dissertation, I wrote a cluster analysis program for my Kaypro II because it was the only machine I had. It took months to write and debug the program (written in S-BASIC), and every time I ran the analysis it took two days--literally, 48+ hours of grinding away. I could do the same thing in seconds using SAS and the P133 machine on which I'm typing this. In fact, I do this sort of thing for a living, and there are so many things that would be a major project on a classic machine which I do now just as a matter of preliminary exploration. And it's not just statistics. Writing reports is much easier with a mouse and multitasking. Getting data from dBASE II to Perfect Calc and then moving the summary table to Wordstar or Perfect Writer was a considerable chore. Yesterday I zapped a bunch of Quattro Pro tables (based on SAS output) over to a Word document, and everything showed up with no trouble, formatting and all. Those are programs written by rival companies, but they can talk to each other just fine. Others have mentioned that it takes more skill and intelligence to use classic software than to point and click. I don't disagree with that, and I'm proud of what I was able to get those machines to do. Learning to use those kinds of computers has given me a better outlook about later ones, and I still tweak my current set up much more than most people (and certainly more than our IT department would like me to). But then, I remember a lot of people in my Kaypro User's Group who never figured out how to use the modems in their 2Xs. Friendlier interfaces have opened up the benefits of computing to a lot of people who would never have put up with CP/M. After all computers are _supposed_ to make your life easier. If that means they require less intelligence and skill to use, that means they're doing their job. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 27 07:35:24 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Commodore P-500 In-Reply-To: <33AF60F2.387F@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > All I can do is give you the U.S. perspective on this machine, since I > haven't heard any stories on the European distribution of P-500s. A couple of years back, I took a book out of the university library entitled "The Microcomputer Users Handbook 1985" and typed some stuff up from it. Amongst the machines listed from Commodore were the "Commodore 500" and "Commodore 700". Would this "500" be related to the P-500, or to something else? The notes I have about the Commodore 500 say that it was intended to be a "professional/scientific" computer, and the cost was "from" 799 UKP. It used a 2MHz 6509 processor (whatever that is :) ) and came with 128K or 256K, expandable to 896K. It had 28K of ROM, including the BASIC interpreter. The ports I have listed are RS-232C, IEEE-488, video and audio out (my source didn't say what kind), cassette, cartridge port, and two joystick ports. Screen size: 40x25 characters. 320x200 pixels in hi-res, 16 colours, 8 sprites (sounds like the C64's VIC-II). I think it also specifically stated that the machine used the SID chip for sound, but I may have just been reading between the lines. Also mentioned were optional Z80A and 8088 processor boards, which were supposed to be able to operate concurrently with the 6509. Release date was listed as 1982, but I noticed that that book usually listed _UK_ release dates. Still, it couldn't be any earlier if the machine had the SID and VIC-II chips. Is it possible the machine was available in Europe and not North America? I think I'll have to go back to the library to find that book now that I've got a video camera and framegrabber, to grab some of the (many, many) photos of old systems. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 27 08:07:56 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Apple clones (was: Re: C64 CP/M carts) In-Reply-To: <97Jun24.182108pdt.32259@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com wrote: > >In Italy there was Lemon computer building Apple-clones. > >Has anyone heard about them? > Were they actually called 'Lemon's'? That certainly doesn't have a > positive > connotation in North America! > > In Canada, a company built Apple II clones called 'Pineapples'. > > There were probably other fruit-named clones as well! Also seen in Canada: Granny Smith and McIntosh. And yes, I saw the "McIntosh" Apple ][ clones before the arrival of the Macintosh. :) I kind of wish I had bough a McIntosh rather than my Microcom clone, just for the name. But Microcom had a large store nearby, with good support. I don't know where the McIntosh and Granny Smith clones were coming from. > -- > Clark Geisler Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From groberts at mitre.org Fri Jun 27 08:26:30 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Z100 saved from the landfill Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970627092630.00803970@mail90> thanks to a pointer originally posted on this list i met up with someone yesterday who bequeathed me his old Z-100 (Heath/Zenith pre-pc era dual CPU system). it took me a while to replace a bunch of the keyboard switches (they were gunked up with glue) and some bad video RAM, but now the system hums along nicely. he had souped it up in a number of ways (except no hard disk, darn) and had tons of software. i'll undoubtedly have extra and will post a listing of duplicates at some point in case anyone's interested. he included lots of cp/m stuff including cp/m85 and cp/m86 and, interestingly, mp/m. so thanks for the pointer guys! (P.S. i've noticed a markedly improved signal to noise ratio on this list lately so people are thinking twice before hitting the "send" button with meaningless chatter or flaming comments - let's keep it up!) tx. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Jun 27 08:35:14 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <199706270041.UAA31230@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > It was thus said that the Great DAVID L. ORMAND once stated: > > > > >I still do my banking/checkbook on the kaypro! Faster than the PC > > >overall. > > In fact, I'm wondering how widespread my idea is (shared by a > > few, apparently) that the smaller, simpler machines really are well > > suited for home use, and you don't need a high-end peecee for nearly > > everything you want to do. > > > I no longer use my Coco for word processing, namely for two reasons: I > don't have the space to set it up, and two, it's a bit sluggish (okay, I'm > spoiled - I like having true lower case and a 80x25 screen). > I'd use the uVax more often, but I need to get a new harddrive for it, and > getting one with VMS 4.x pre-installed isn't that easy (not that I've tried > really hard). I'd probably use it for CPU intensive projects, like ray > tracing, and some development work (homebrew project: operating system of my > own design). I plan to put the '11 to work as my Internet machine. When I get a LAN in the house (Not Likely), I plan to use it as the server machine. The point is it probably out-performs my 486. And it's neat. I just wish I had the programmer's panel for it! I may also make it a webserver (Assuming I can re-write HTTPD) so I can show off. Or I may just get lazy like normal and not do any of this :) From mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu Fri Jun 27 09:13:09 1997 From: mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu (Matthew P. Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706270125.AA06089@world.std.com>; from Allison J Parent on Thu, Jun 26, 1997 at 09:25:53PM -0400 References: <199706270125.AA06089@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19970627091309.08841@beret.cs.utexas.edu> On Thu, Jun 26, 1997 at 09:25:53PM -0400, Allison J Parent wrote: > microcoding can be habit forming. You will also want 2909/10/11 microcode > sequencer chips. Those are less common. I beleive I had a number of these support chips also. These all came in a big lot of surplus components my brother scavenged. Now, if I only had a use for 10000 10uF capacitors . . m@ -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@cs.utexas.edu -- Austin, Texas (512)457-0086 -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 27 10:22:37 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <199706270759.15397@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 27, 97 08:59:06 am Message-ID: <9706271422.AA05337@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 627 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970627/84d62fa7/attachment.ksh From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Fri Jun 27 10:39:52 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores Message-ID: <01IKK9GEK1RS9X5JYF@cc.usu.edu> > From hacking Commodore 1541 disks, I have seen that it used a system as you > mentioned above, and in block 0 of each file the first 2 bytes was the load > address if it was a program file, or data in a sequnetial file, and each > block had pointers to the next block. too bad that ms-dos is not as simple.. But MS-DOS _is_ that simple. It just stores the linked list in a different part of the disk than it stores the data... Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 27 10:55:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: (fwd) Apple III computer & Monitor FS (fwd) Message-ID: Thought someone may be interested. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "News User" Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.marketplace Subject: Apple III computer & Monitor FS Date: 25 Jun 1997 12:57:25 GMT I have an Apple III computer & Monitor III for sale with Manuals and software for sale, or Trade. Please let me know if you are interested. Robert Please respond to: rdoerr@bizserve.com -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 27 10:59:47 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <199706270759.15397@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > 'Realistic games'. I don't play many games, but I'll agree that modern > games running on modern hardware do _look_ a lot more realistic than the > text+block graphics we had on home computers 15 years ago. The problem is > that IMHO (and YMMV) the old games are just more fun to play. That's a > personal judgement, though. I totally agree. Rogue isn't an all time favorite by government decree. Also, there are games on the Apple ][ that are way more fun and interesting than any PC schlock these days. Heck, I still have my Atari 2600 sitting by my TV that I fire up fairly often. A game that fits inside a 2K eprom holds my interest longer than some PC games. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jun 27 11:18:44 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Northstar Software Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20555A309@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> As much as I would love to get this stuff directly myself, I would much prefer that you send them to Don Maslin, the CP/M boot disk archivist, from whom I (and many others) can obtain copies. Kai > ---------- > From: Doug Rich > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:27 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Northstar Software > > I was a northstar dealer for many years and have a box (about the size > of a > case of paper) full of northstar software on original disks. I am not > sure > what to do with them. I would like them to be of some use to someone. > Any suggestions? > > Doug > > Remember... No mater where you go... there you are! > From s-ware at nwu.edu Fri Jun 27 11:23:17 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <9706262307.AA28923@aztec.asu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, DAVID L. ORMAND wrote: > Don't get me wrong; I love to hear about these old machines, so keep > those messages coming. But I would like to hear from others out there > who use their obsolete machines (I prefer "non-mainstream machines") > for practical, everyday, household computing uses. I wrote a book last year on a TRS-80 model 100 portable. There's nothing else in the 4-pound range that can compare to its excellent keyboard and long battery life (except, of course, the other machines that share the same design, such as the NEC PC-8201). Unfortunately, the publisher required everything to be submitted in Word 6 format using a custom template (to facilitate conversion to SGML, oddly enough), so I had to do the final editing on a 486. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Fri Jun 27 06:39:15 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: which month? Message-ID: <33B3A663.3AB9@ndirect.co.uk> I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction of the three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: a) the Apple II b) the Tandy TRS-80 c) the Commodore Pet I need them for a book on collecting home computers I am researching for. Thank you enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jun 27 12:13:02 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: which month? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20555A383@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Here's the list I keep. Sorry about the formatting. Kai November, 1971 Intel 4004 CPU 1971 Nutting & Associates Computer Space arcade 1972 Atari Pong arcade 1972 Magnavox Odyssey home video game system November, 1972 Intel 8008 CPU March, 1974 Scelbi 8H kit appears in QST magazine April, 1974 Intel 8080 CPU July, 1974 Mark 8 plans appear in Radio Electronics magazine August, 1974 Motorola 6800 1974 RCA 1802 CPU 1974 Atari Pong home game January, 1975 MITS Altair 8800 September, 1975 IBM 5100 1975 IMSAI 8080 1975 Processor Technology Sol 1975 MOS Technology/Commodore KIM-1 July, 1976 Apple I kit July, 1976 Zilog Z80 CPU 1976 Fairchild/Zircon Channel F home game April, 1977 Apple II April, 1977 Commodore PET August, 1977 Tandy TRS-80 1977 Atari 2600 VCS home game 1977 RCA Studio II home game 1977 Bally Astrocade home game 1978 Intel 8085 CPU June, 1978 Intel 8086 CPU December, 1978 Atari 400/800 s 1978 Taito/Bally/Midway Space Invaders arcade 1978 Magnavox Odyssey2 home game February, 1979 Intel 8088 CPU May, 1979 Seattle Products 8086 S-100 CPU board May, 1979 Tandy TRS-80 Model II June, 1979 Texas Instruments 99/4 June, 1979 Apple II+ September, 1979 Motorola 68000 CPU 1979 Atari Asteroids arcade 1979 Atari Lunar Lander arcade 1979 Mattel Intellivision home game February, 1980 Sinclair ZX80 June, 1980 Commodore VIC-20 July, 1980 Tandy TRS-80 Model III July, 1980 Tandy TRS-80 Color I September, 1980 Apple III 1980 Atari Battlezone arcade 1980 Atari Missile Command arcade 1980 Bally/Midway Pac-Man arcade 1980 APF M1000 home game April, 1981 Osborne 1 May, 1981 Xerox Star August, 1981 IBM PC 1981 Atari Centipede arcade 1981 Nintendo Donkey Kong arcade November, 1982 Compaq Portable PC 1982 Commodore 64 1982 Colecovision home game 1982 GCE/Milton Bradley Vectrex home game 1982 Milton Bradley Microvision hand held game 1982 Atari 5200 home game 1982 Emerson Arcadia 2001 home game January, 1983 Apple Lisa January, 1983 Apple Iie March, 1983 Tandy TRS-80 Model 100 April, 1983 Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 June, 1983 Coleco Adam October, 1983 IBM PC-XT October, 1983 Compaq Portable Plus December, 1983 Apple III+ 1983 Mattel Intellivision II home game 1983 Mattel Aquarius January, 1984 Apple Macintosh February, 1984 IBM Portable PC March, 1984 IBM PCjr April, 1984 Apple IIc June, 1984 Compaq DeskPro August, 1984 IBM PC-AT September, 1984 Tandy 1000 1984 Motorola 68010 CPU 1984 Intel 80186 CPU 1984 Intel 80286 CPU January, 1985 Commodore 128 January, 1985 Atari 520ST January, 1985 Atari XE January, 1985 Apple Macintosh XL April, 1985 Compaq DeskPro 286 April, 1985 Compaq Portable 286 July, 1985 Commodore Amiga 1000 1985 Nintendo Entertainment System January, 1986 Apple Macintosh Plus February, 1986 Compaq Portable II April, 1986 IBM PC Convertible August, 1986 Intel 80386 CPU September, 1986 Compaq DeskPro 386 September, 1986 IBM PC-XT 286 1986 Sega Master System home game 1986 Atari 7800 March, 1987 Apple Macintosh II April, 1987 IBM PS/2 October, 1987 Compaq Portable 386 1987 Motorola 68030 CPU > ---------- > From: e.tedeschi > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 4:39 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: which month? > > I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction of the > > three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: > > a) the Apple II > b) the Tandy TRS-80 > c) the Commodore Pet > > I need them for a book on collecting home computers I am researching > for. > > Thank you > > enrico > -- > ================================================================ > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > website > ================================================================ > visit Brighton: > From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jun 27 12:07:29 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Computer Trivia Game Message-ID: <199706271718.KAA22133@mx4.u.washington.edu> > Anyone remember a trivial-pursuit-like Computer Trivia game? It was being > touted at one of the last West Coast Computer Faires here in San Francisco. > Anyone have a copy? I have computer-based trivia game (shareware, I think) on a CD-ROM. I could dig it up, if anyone want it...it had pretty hard questions, which went 'way back to the dawn of time (you know, like the 1950's :> )) From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Jun 27 12:38:01 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I wrote a book last year on a TRS-80 model 100 portable. There's nothing > else in the 4-pound range that can compare to its excellent keyboard and > long battery life (except, of course, the other machines that share the > same design, such as the NEC PC-8201). Unfortunately, the publisher > required everything to be submitted in Word 6 format using a custom > template (to facilitate conversion to SGML, oddly enough), so I had to do > the final editing on a 486. That thing (Mod 100) saved my ash more times than I'd like to mention in school! Unfortunately, I lost 4 keys on the keyboard, so I can't use it for much anymore (Keys were I K L and ?). I LOVED the look on the math teacher's face when I walked in with it! MT: What's that? Me: A calculator. MT: You're full of *, it's an organizer. ANd against the rules. Me: Actually it's a computer. (Shows off label) MT: You little wise***! :) From bwit at pobox.com Fri Jun 27 11:50:45 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: which month? Message-ID: <01BC82F8.BBFDBD40@ppp-151-164-39-39.rcsntx.swbell.net> IIRC the TRS-80 was introduced in September 1977. ---------- From: e.tedeschi Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 7:39 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: which month? I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction of the three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: a) the Apple II b) the Tandy TRS-80 c) the Commodore Pet I need them for a book on collecting home computers I am researching for. Thank you enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1772 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970627/5dbad2bd/attachment.bin From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Fri Jun 27 14:37:44 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: which month? References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20555A383@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33B41688.4AE4@ndirect.co.uk> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > Here's the list I keep. Sorry about the formatting. > > Kai Oh, thank you very much for your list. It is very useful to me. Can I use it in my book please? I will mention your name of course. enrico From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 27 13:45:30 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) In-Reply-To: <33AEF7AB.26EA@ndirect.co.uk> References: <33AEF7AB.26EA@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33b40a2b.8319995@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 22:24:43 +0000, you wrote: % % % Hey. The Camputers 'Linx' is spelled Lynx. I have one. Ben From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 27 14:15:53 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: which month? In-Reply-To: <33B3A663.3AB9@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > a) the Apple II > b) the Tandy TRS-80 > c) the Commodore Pet The TRS-80 was announced _and deliveries began_ -- no announcement was made until 5,000 had been manufactured -- on 3 August 1977. The Model II premiered two years later to the day. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From scott at saskatoon.com Fri Jun 27 14:25:35 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: which month? In-Reply-To: <33B3A663.3AB9@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: >I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction of the >three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: >a) the Apple II Okay, all sources for the Apple II seem to agree that it was introduced in April, but what date? From memory I would've said April 17th. I decided to confirm this with a quick web search and came up with two dates! http://www.research.apple.com/extras/history/ puts the date at April 20, 1977 while http://www.kelleyad.com/histry.htm puts the date at April 17, 1977. Both of these sources have the credentials to be accurate. Which date was it? Surely someone here knows. ttfn srw From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 27 14:20:51 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Video game machine/Computer With 6800 Processor Message-ID: <33b511e8.10301223@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Does anyone remember this machine : it's a video game console (like the atari VCS) but which could sit on a box which then converts it to a home computer. The machine ran on a 6800 and had built-in basic. It came out approx at the same time as the Atari 400/800 series (78-79?) I remember seeing an ad on it and the heading of the ad was "imagination machine". Ben From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Jun 27 14:41:15 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: JavaScript PDP-8 emulator! In-Reply-To: <33b511e8.10301223@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: This is neat! http://www.cs.uwyo.edu/~marnold/pdp8.html From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 27 16:37:32 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: ROM Archive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > Here's what I think so far (which isn't much ): > > 1. Record format: open (depending on software for EPROM programmer); > S-records, Intel Hex, binary. I'm no expert at this so I'll defer. > 2. Submission & storage: UUEncoded image file e-mailed to "repository"; > ROM/EPROM chips sent by snail mail and returned. All submissions should have > as much info about the source computer as possible (board revisions, date of > mnaufacture, etc.) Sounds good. The repository then is a "soft" repository of ROM images? > > 3. Requests & withdrawls: by e-mail to those with programmers; by mail for > those supplying their own chips; e-mail request with no chip sent. I assumed since the images are merely files they could be downloaded by anyone requesting them. Is the repository also going to have physical EPROMS that someone can request? If so, why? > 4. Cost: nominal (cost of postage and EPROM). Is the repository also going to be in the business of supplying people with pre-burnt EPROMS? If so then 3 makes more sense now. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dlormand at aztec.asu.edu Fri Jun 27 16:49:42 1997 From: dlormand at aztec.asu.edu (DAVID L. ORMAND) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <9706272149.AA17279@aztec.asu.edu> I am glad to hear that others, like myself, commonly use a "non-mainstream" machine for ordinary home applications. I would like to keep this discussion going for a while. I don't know that Dr. Shoppa using all that classic DEC machinery at his Canadian university qualifies as doing "ordinary home applications", although I'm delighted to hear that the old junk is still providing useful service (heck, at Hughes here, we have PDP-11s running AMRAAM test equipment, and HP-1000s running Tomahawk test equipment). >But it depends upon what you are doing. While in theory you could >calculate e to 100,000 digits using an Apple ][, it might take upwards of a >week for the results, and you couldn't use the computer in the meantime, >whereas on modern machines, 100,000 digits could be generated in under an >hour, and with the right OS, you could still work on other things [1]. I would also hesitate to say that calculating e to 100,000th digits is an ordinary household task. As is graphics arts, desktop publishing, audio mixing, and a lot of other things that some people do in their homes for fun or profit. Obviously you need the tools for the job. But nearly EVERYTHING you do for common home jobs can be done on the "home computers" that were sold for the purpose nearly 20 years ago. >I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a >modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full >photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am >not a member of the dark force, I just have a multitude of machines, and I >have EXPERIANCED running them, from an apple ][ +, C=64, IBM XT, and a 586-133. >we must have an open mind about this, as there are some who still never ran >anything NEW, and pass judgment about how bad a machine is when they have >never used one. I really have no dispute with people with modern machines. [Especially Macs or BeOS machines, for instance; peecees to me are primarily means for the Microsoft empire to attain world domination.] My beef is: (a) When these people look down on you for sticking with your "toy" computer when theirs is obviously so much more superior to yours, (b) People mislead by the above people into thinking that they MUST have a Pentium-class peecee to balance their checkbooks on, (c) User/owners of "non-mainstream" machines dumping them when they swallow the propaganda that they MUST have a peecee or they will be hopelessly left behind. The obvious reason the collectors in this List can acquire the classic machines for pennies from thrift stores is that people who donate to or shop at these thrift stores believe this is worthless junk that isn't capable of doing anything useful. I (and others on this List) KNOW that is false, but what can you do? How do you raise a voice of opposition in the face of the Wintel juggernaut? -- ********************************************** * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * * dlormand@aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * **************************** TMS9900 Lives! * From dlormand at aztec.asu.edu Fri Jun 27 16:52:05 1997 From: dlormand at aztec.asu.edu (DAVID L. ORMAND) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:10 2005 Subject: Modern Apps on Old Machines Message-ID: <9706272152.AA17442@aztec.asu.edu> >I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a >modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full >photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am >not a member of the dark force, I just have a multitude of machines, and I >have EXPERIANCED running them, from an apple ][ +, C=64, IBM XT, and a 586-133. >we must have an open mind about this, as there are some who still never ran >anything NEW, and pass judgment about how bad a machine is when they have >never used one. A different thought - I don't really buy the argument for owning a modern machine for the purposes of "better" games. But the Web browser thing is slightly different, being a VERY powerful and useful communication method. I have heard that the C64 and Atari 8-bit machines now have graphical Web browsers and PPP clients running on them. The TI community is working on a TCP/IP system, but we were debating the possibility of a Web browser. The argument I and others made in its defense was, granted the stock hardware is incapable of SVGA-grade graphical displays, with appropriate decoding, you can get "close" (with sufficient processing time), and if you have to "scroll" around to see the entire page, so what? 1. Am I correct in what I have heard of the C64 and Atari 8-bitters? 2. Is this a reasonable argument for "home computers" being fit out for browsing? Or is it silly when $2000 (maybe even below $1000) can get you a Web-capable peecee? 3. What other apps are there that are REALLY useful for home use that modern machines have and "home computers" don't? And is is really impossible to do these tasks on "home computers"? Is it worth the time and effort (even out of love) to write the software, or even create the new peripherals, to enable the old iron to do the job? -- ********************************************** * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * * dlormand@aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * **************************** TMS9900 Lives! * From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 27 16:55:47 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <9706272149.AA17279@aztec.asu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, DAVID L. ORMAND wrote: > The obvious reason the collectors in this List can acquire the classic machines > for pennies from thrift stores is that people who donate to or shop at these > thrift stores believe this is worthless junk that isn't capable of doing > anything useful. I (and others on this List) KNOW that is false, but what can > you do? How do you raise a voice of opposition in the face of the Wintel > juggernaut? Keep using your old computers. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 27 17:20:31 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <199706272220.AA19235@world.std.com> > going for a while. I don't know that Dr. Shoppa using all that classic > DEC machinery at his Canadian university qualifies as doing "ordinary hom > applications", although I'm delighted to hear that the old junk is still > providing useful service (heck, at Hughes here, we have PDP-11s running I have six all operational two get regular use. BEsides my CP/M systems from before the flood. > >modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in fu > >photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I a Well, much of this I used to do back around '85 using microvax in color with a 1280x1024 19" screen! Asa to much of the other stuff it's all hardware much of which saw it origins on s100, Q and other busses. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 27 17:20:39 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Modern Apps on Old Machines Message-ID: <199706272220.AA19362@world.std.com> Many of the midrange minies like the PDP-11, perq, and a host of others can and did do much of the web thing. much of the old machines don't do that was not a matter of speed or memory but software conceived to do that. is it practical not finance wise the user population is too small and would not pay much but the hardware can make a good account of itself. Keep in mind most of the PCs have only gotten to or exceeded the minicomputer performance level say in the last 7 years maybe less. Before then people used all manner of things to accomplish was PCs are commonly used for. Allison From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 27 17:23:42 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: BASF Extra 120 tape carthridges Message-ID: Can anyone use a mess of BASF Extra 120 (ultra stabilized) tape carthridges? I don't know much more about them beyond what is written on them. We get these at work every week and my accountant just tosses them because she has no use for them (we get records on them from PacBell for accounting stuff). I could collect these and send them off to someone every month if they want to pay for shipping in advance. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 27 17:20:13 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Modern Apps on Old Machines In-Reply-To: <9706272152.AA17442@aztec.asu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, DAVID L. ORMAND wrote: > I have heard that the C64 and Atari 8-bit machines now have graphical Web > browsers and PPP clients running on them. The TI community is working on > > 1. Am I correct in what I have heard of the C64 and Atari 8-bitters? A guy named Andre Fachat created a simple TCP/IP implementation on the 6502 and a simple Web server. > 2. Is this a reasonable argument for "home computers" being fit out for > browsing? Or is it silly when $2000 (maybe even below $1000) can get you > a Web-capable peecee? I would love for my Apple ][ (not //gs) to be able to browse graphical web pages, but a) the machine is barely fast enough for a TCP/IP implementation and b) the graphics are very low resolution and would not look nearly as pretty, plus they would eat away more CPU time that the TCP/IP driver would need. However, this has not stopped me from seriously considering writing a graphical web browser for the non-GS Apple ][s, if I only had the time. :) > 3. What other apps are there that are REALLY useful for home use that > modern machines have and "home computers" don't? And is is really > impossible to do these tasks on "home computers"? Is it worth the time > and effort (even out of love) to write the software, or even create the > new peripherals, to enable the old iron to do the job? None really. Even speech recognition, which will take the world by storm in a years time was capable on some early home computers. I have a speech recognition card for my Apple //e that could recognize a simple vocabulary, although nowhere near the scale that the new recognizers can do (ie. continuous speech recognition). Basically, there is no application today that computers 10 years ago couldn't do. Its just that today they do them (mostly) better and (mostly) faster (I say "mostly" because, for instance, it takes longer for MS-Word to boot on my pentium 100 with 32megs RAM than a word processor did on my Apple ][). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From sprague at VivaNET.com Fri Jun 27 21:26:49 1997 From: sprague at VivaNET.com (Mike Sprague) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Xerox (RE: Lisa's scores) References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20553B314@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33B47669.19FC@VivaNET.com> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > The first GUI system was the Xerox Alto. It was desk-sized. The > commercial model was the Xerox Star, which was somewhat smaller (c.1977) Half right. :-) To my knowledge (and I may be wrong), there is no such thing as a Xerox "Star." Star was simply the name of the software that ran on the computer (a Xerox 8010). It did, however, become common to all the machine a Star, much like people nowdays call a PC their "Windows" box. It really used to annoy me when people would say "Can you star that document to me?", which meant, "Can you mail me that document to me?" Anyway, the Alto and 8010 are related, but are _very_ different machines, and the Alto was never offered commercially (almost was though). The graphical system that ran on the Alto (XDE, or Xerox Development Environment) was updated to run on the 8010's, 6085's, and I understand, even on PC's under Windows a few years back. To my knowledge, Star (which later became Viewpoint) never ran on the Alto. > The book "Fumbling the Future: How Xerox Invented, Then Ignored, the > First Personal Computer" by Douglas Smith and Robert Alexander, states > that Xerox voluntarily offered the UI elements to Steve Jobs. Apple > does not appear to have "stolen" the ideas. > > Kai Hmmm, I haven't read the book, but Xerox certainly fumbled the future on a number of things! Having worked on one of those fumbled things, and used others, it's quite annoying. Anyway, common folklore at Xerox (right or wrong) is that Xerox was showing off the UI to Jobs, not realizing what it had, or that Jobs would want it. I also understand that Jobs hired a number of people who had worked on it away from Xerox, to work on the Lisa. Most feel that while Jobs did not quite steal the UI, it was close enough to be the same thing! :-) ~ Mike From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Fri Jun 27 12:29:35 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <199706272220.AA19235@world.std.com> Message-ID: Nearly every machine I have gets a regular workout, though other than the Amiga's and the newer PC, none of them are really used for anything other than just messing around with. I have been known to use both the Atari-ST and C-128D for telecom duties, as well as using the Atari-ST as a VT-100 terminal connected to one of the 3 serial ports on my Amiga 3000, as well as using a DigiView Gold on the Amiga 1000 for the occasional video capture. Otherwise, I mainly use them for games and for dabbling in the different versions of BASIC. In fact tonight I fired up both the ADAM and one of the TI-99/4A's for a bit. All in all, these systems are every bit as useful as the day the came out, if not more so since a lot of them have things such as SCSI and IDE interfaces available for them that the original designers didn't even dream of. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cerebral at michianatoday.com Fri Jun 27 21:44:00 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <02440020302929@michianatoday.com> At 08:59 AM 6/27/97 BST, you wrote: >> I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a >> modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full >> photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am > >I have used 'modern' PC's (well, at least pentiums with 16 MBytes RAM, >SVGA card, etc), and I know I'm not missing _anything_ by sticking to >classic computers. Let's go through your points. > What I mean is that we must realize that there is only so much you can do with classic computers. after all, if they were the best than why we have faster and better? >'Web pages in full photo quality colour'. Well, I access the web to get >information, not look at pretty pictures. Most of the information I want >is _text_, or at least monochrome graphics (things like IC data sheets). >So I don't need 'photo quality colour'. And if I did, I could easily find well at the moment you dont need it, but its nice to know that you can see it when you need it. >a classic system that could display them. Evans and Sutherland, Grinnell, >Ramtek, I2S, PPL, etc all made high-res colour displays that make most >PC's look like toys. And you can pick one up second-hand for less than an >SVGA card + monitor. SVGA a toy? I used many an apple ][ + and C=64 with 80 col RGB monitors, and I can take only so much eyestrain. sharp graphics make your eyes feel good... also I would like to clarify somthing. I am not a billy gates follower. I despise his efforts and his software. and winsucks 95 is a laugh!! but the issue is machines, and if you run Linux, as I do, that pentium will spring to life! so the PC is not the greatest machine, but if you run software that was properly written, (i.e. not from microsuck) you get fantastic results, that is why I like my commodore 64, it can do alot on 1 MHZ. >'Realistic games'. I don't play many games, but I'll agree that modern >games running on modern hardware do _look_ a lot more realistic than the >text+block graphics we had on home computers 15 years ago. The problem is >that IMHO (and YMMV) the old games are just more fun to play. That's a >personal judgement, though. I have an Atari 2600, and the best racing game is from Acivision called Enduro. >'PPP connections' Oh come on. I've run a PPP client on an _XT_. No problem >at all. I'll happily believe they're available for other old machines as >well. well we all believe, but sadly, this does not always work that way. I have an XT too, and yes you can load a packet driver, but then 640K is not big enough except to run telnet or ftp from. I use my XT as a file server... >'Realaudio' I assume that's some audio standard for modern machines. But Realaudio is a standard, but it is an INTERNET standard for sending LIVE SOUND from any web server. it has many uses, and the fun part of it is that I live in Indiana, and when I lived in St Petersburg FL, there was a good radio station there that I loved, and through Realaudio I can now listen to it here. and this is not just for PC's, it runs on MACs, UNIX Linux, and most Sun machines. >we had good quality audio on PDP11's (thanks to a little board from 3RCC) >in 1976. It's not exactly hard to add a DAC and a DMA engine or even a DSP >to a lot of classic computers (and classic computer != cheap home micro so >there's easily enough RAM space for a reasonable length sample). to me, a PDP11 is WORLDS apart from classic HOME computers, If I had the fortune of actually owing a PDP11, I would use it extensively..... :) also about enough ram space...NOT! I have some software for the C=64 that plays back digital sound files. with the stock 64K of ram, I can hold a 6 second clip. with the 1764 ram expansion with 512K of ram, I can hold a 60 second clip, but no longer than that. >What I'd be missing by going to a modern machine would be : >Documentation. Since I don't just run prepackaged software and plug in >prebuilt hardware, I need good technical manuals. They just don't exist I programmed in BASIC, and that is fun, and I tried 6502 assembler, and almost had a working interrupt handler going, but my brain fried, the opcodes are easy, but remembering memory addresses when deprived of caffeine is hard! the interrupt handler was for a terminal program that I was writing that utilized a 6551 UART in a commodore 64. I love hacking old hardware! and it also had interupt driven multitasking, as in this terminal, you can use the modem and play .sid music files at the same time! that was fun!! now I program in C, and if you do it right, you can make any machine dance to your beat. >for most modern machines >Repairability. I can fix classic computers with no problem at all. Just I have never had any hardware failures in ANY of my machines so far (knock on silicon), with the exception that I accidentally cooked a 6526. >try getting a custom chip for a PC motherboard. And don't tell me to >replace the motherboard - if the PC is a few years old I'd probably have >to replace the CPU and memory as well. that is just the ticket. A brand new 486 motherboard cost $90. with it you get real functionality. I know some who will pay twice that for a doorstop... actually, you can get a decent modern PC together just by scrounging computer shows and bargaining for parts. assembling a system from scratch with old parts is very fun and rewarding. and the reliablity rate for modern chips is very high. in fact the monitor or hard disk probably will die before the motherboard will. also I am speaking of those who NEVER touched anything new, and passing judgment. if you tried the new stuff, and hate it, that is fine, but I can't stand those who never tried it then saying it sux. From cerebral at michianatoday.com Fri Jun 27 21:51:38 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <02513842202954@michianatoday.com> At 07:22 AM 6/27/97 -0800, you wrote: >> > modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full > ^^^^ >> > photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am > ^^^^^ > > >Really? Full photo quality? My early 1940's Speed Graphic makes >4" x 5" (100mm x 125mm) negatives with roughly 160 dpmm resolution. >(Admittedly, with a lens that's stopped down considerably...) >That's roughly 16000 x 20000 pixels, using technology that's over >50 years old. SuperVGA and CRT's have a long, long, way to go before >they catch up. > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > you are technically correct, BUT- viewing a photo on a CRT in 16 million colors is still 100% better than having only 16 colors... From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 27 23:00:15 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <199706280400.AA17197@world.std.com> > also about enough ram space...NOT! > I have some software for the C=64 that plays back digital sound files. wit > the stock 64K of ram, I can hold a 6 second clip. with the 1764 ram > expansion with 512K of ram, I can hold a 60 second clip, but no longer tha Funny my s100 crate can playback easily 8mb and using a modified os 32mb of sound. In this case a well designed hard disk system (circa 1982) easily keeps up without eating ram. On a z80 at 4mhz. Oh, the disk size was limited by budget! Even in 1982 hard disks were plenty fast enough to support fast DACs or audio. Allison From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 27 23:53:26 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: which month? In-Reply-To: References: <33B3A663.3AB9@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970627215326.01217070@agora.rdrop.com> At 01:25 PM 6/27/97 -0600, you wrote: >On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > >>I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction of the >>three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: > >>a) the Apple II > >Okay, all sources for the Apple II seem to agree that it was introduced in >April, but what date? From memory I would've said April 17th. I decided >to confirm this with a quick web search and came up with two dates! > >http://www.research.apple.com/extras/history/ > >puts the date at April 20, 1977 while > >http://www.kelleyad.com/histry.htm > >puts the date at April 17, 1977. Both of these sources have the >credentials to be accurate. Which date was it? Surely someone here >knows. Well... will have to find the program to check the dates, but the Apple II was *introduced* at the opening day of the First West Coast Computer Faire in San Francisco. (I was there - Jim Warren had some *great* stories around that event!) It created the biggest buzz at the show as I recall... And then there was that joke that Woz played on Jobs and all of the Altair fans... (but I'll get to that later) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 27 23:56:14 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: BASF Extra 120 tape carthridges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970627215614.0121a780@agora.rdrop.com> At 03:23 PM 6/27/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Can anyone use a mess of BASF Extra 120 (ultra stabilized) tape >carthridges? Are these data type cartridges? And if so, what format? (cassette, DC300/600, etc?) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From cerebral at michianatoday.com Fri Jun 27 23:58:06 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Modern Apps on Old Machines Message-ID: <04580611303330@michianatoday.com> At 02:52 PM 6/27/97 -0700, you wrote: >A different thought - I don't really buy the argument for owning a modern >machine for the purposes of "better" games. But the Web browser thing is >slightly different, being a VERY powerful and useful communication method. I agree with you here, and games are fun, but that depends on what you like. I love the internet, and I learned ALOT from it. sure a shell account with lynx is nice, as I use it for fast FTP, but when I read about a PDP11, it is nice to see a picture of one, rather just text. > >I have heard that the C64 and Atari 8-bit machines now have graphical Web >browsers and PPP clients running on them. The TI community is working on >a TCP/IP system, but we were debating the possibility of a Web browser. I have dreamed of writing one, and I don't know if someone else has done it, and if they did, I would grab a copy right away. The main problem that everyone forgets is that having limited memory is a pain, and TCP/IP alone uses 64K in ONE SOCKET ALONE as a buffer. >The argument I and others made in its defense was, granted the stock >hardware is incapable of SVGA-grade graphical displays, with appropriate >decoding, you can get "close" (with sufficient processing time), and if >you have to "scroll" around to see the entire page, so what? You have a good point there, and it would work sorta, but patience runs thin after awhile, as decoding images at 1 MHZ does take 1 min, times that with 10 or so inlines you will find at every web page, and waiting 10 mins for a page to load would make it a fustrating experiance. heck, on days where there is severe net lag (especially on fridays), it takes 10 mins for the data to arrive even for fast machines! It is a cool idea though, and it would be interesting to see if this can be pulled off. >1. Am I correct in what I have heard of the C64 and Atari 8-bitters? > >2. Is this a reasonable argument for "home computers" being fit out for >browsing? Or is it silly when $2000 (maybe even below $1000) can get you >a Web-capable peecee? You dont have to spend this much to have a fast PC (or MAC), all you need is to hunt around... AND NEVER BUY RETAIL SYSTEMS!!! like packard smell..... > >3. What other apps are there that are REALLY useful for home use that >modern machines have and "home computers" don't? And is is really its not about apps, its about efficincy, and operator comfort. VGA or SVGA is worth it becuse it prevents eyestrain, and you can use your system for longer amounts of time. I used color TV's before when I got started, and serious word processing was painful to the eyes. RGB's are better, but not by much. also its about speed. The ability to cut and paste is underrated, as in serious work, it saves gobs of time. I love command line interfaces, as well as GUI's, but typing long commandlines to just load a directory, its nice just to be able to type LS -l and get the same result. and if you think about it, these nice classic machines we love EVOLVED to be the modern ones we got now, and I understand the resentment of microsnot, as I hate them too, but I can't understand the resentment of the modern machines. Yes some say they cost too much, but that can be solved. I see people go gaga over a PCjr, and while that make a nice collectors item, it is the least usefull home computer EVER made. and yes most apps used for home perposes dont need the latest and greatest, however, a modern machine is far more veratle in the power department, and the classics are more versatle in the hardware department. >impossible to do these tasks on "home computers"? Is it worth the time >and effort (even out of love) to write the software, or even create the >new peripherals, to enable the old iron to do the job? > It is worth the time to develop the software when you need it only if the results are the same if you used somthing already out there on a capable machine. I wrote MANY small utilitys for the Commodore, simply because they did not exist in my area. and while it is fun to do it out of love, it does get tiring reinventing the wheel all the time. more time went into the devleopment than in actual use when it was done. I did write a budget/checkbook balancing program in BASIC, used it a few times, the it got bit rot, because i never had any money left to manage :) all in all, if the machine you use now does all what you want, thats great! but the day WILL come where you just need to have a feature that you have not got now. that is just the way the computing cookie crumbles. From cerebral at michianatoday.com Sat Jun 28 00:09:59 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <05095924803357@michianatoday.com> At 06:20 PM 6/27/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Well, much of this I used to do back around '85 using microvax in color with ^^^^^^^ >a 1280x1024 19" screen! Asa to much of the other stuff it's all hardware >much of which saw it origins on s100, Q and other busses. > >Allison A microVAX or any of the VAXEN is NOT a home computer. I know that PC's were not the first ones to do it and never claimed it, and what I am talking about is the person who still uses his apple ][, and has never touched anything else, saying everything else is junk. sure a Mini workstation can do it, no question about it, but I *KNOW* that a kaypro, apple ][+ C=64, coleco ADAM, 8 bit Ataris and other HOME computers of that era CAN'T handle it. From cerebral at michianatoday.com Sat Jun 28 00:26:59 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <05265941503407@michianatoday.com> At 12:00 AM 6/28/97 -0400, you wrote: > >> also about enough ram space...NOT! >> I have some software for the C=64 that plays back digital sound files. wit >> the stock 64K of ram, I can hold a 6 second clip. with the 1764 ram >> expansion with 512K of ram, I can hold a 60 second clip, but no longer tha > >Funny my s100 crate can playback easily 8mb and using a modified os 32mb >of sound. In this case a well designed hard disk system (circa 1982) >easily keeps up without eating ram. On a z80 at 4mhz. Oh, the disk size >was limited by budget! Even in 1982 hard disks were plenty fast enough to >support fast DACs or audio. > >Allison That is because the software you run want work well enough at 1 MHZ... and if you want to edit, that is where the heap requirement goes up. From scott at saskatoon.com Sat Jun 28 01:17:41 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, I guess I should add my bit to this thread. (I've been waiting for the appropriate time to tell this story :-) First, I have to admit that my two main computers are an Alpha 166 and a K5-133 both running Linux. I don't use my classics on a daily basis, but they do come in handy... In order to feed myself, I maintain several web-servers, one of which is connected via a 128k dedicated isdn line. About 6 months ago I came home from working on this machine, and tried to pull my mail off of it. It was then I realized that I had accidentally brought down the isdn link. Well, I was prepared for this... I had an analog modem on a dial-up line into this machine for just this type of problem. Unfortunately though, I had recently got ADSL internet into my home (Comes into my ethernet) and had got rid of my modem. I still had an external 14.4 modem hooked it up to my Apple //e, though. I quickly used it to dial into the server to bring it back up. So yes, I do use my classic machines--not on a daily basis, but that Apple saved me a trip. ttyl srw From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sat Jun 28 01:37:18 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Source for Syquest 44mb cartridges. Message-ID: Recently I got a SyQuest SQ555 Removable drive (44mb/SCSI) for free. I have been looking for cartridges that fir this drive but so far no luck. (Well, I did find one place that still sold them but they wanted $40 a piece for 'em). If anyone knows of a cheap(er) place to get these babies, please let me know! Thanks, les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From kyrrin at wizards.net Sat Jun 28 02:25:34 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Archiving & other news Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970628002534.00f7bcc8@mail.wizards.net> Well, I see some rumblings in the group about archiving (among other things) EPROMs and other such chips. I think it's a great idea! I will assist as much as I can, considering that I certainly have the equipment for it (Data I/O UniSite, current rev). I can read or program just about anything that comes in a DIP package that is programmable to begin with (including PALs if the security fuse isn't blown). In other news... A Scrounging I Will Go! I'm off to the Bay Area as of Saturday next week (the 5th) for a major see-what's-changed trip, to say nothing of hitting two swap meets (Livermore and Foothill) and seeing what other kinds of trouble I can get into. Sam, watch for an E-mail. I'd like to get in touch with you when I hit the area. For those who have visited my web page, I'll be giving the scrounging section a major facelift and update after I get back. Caveat Emperor! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 28 02:19:14 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: which month? References: Message-ID: <33B4BAF2.50E7@ndirect.co.uk> Scott Walde wrote: > > On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > >I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction of the > >three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: > > >a) the Apple II > > Okay, all sources for the Apple II seem to agree that it was introduced in > April, but what date? From memory I would've said April 17th. I decided > to confirm this with a quick web search and came up with two dates! > > http://www.research.apple.com/extras/history/ > > puts the date at April 20, 1977 while > > http://www.kelleyad.com/histry.htm > > puts the date at April 17, 1977. Both of these sources have the > credentials to be accurate. Which date was it? Surely someone here > knows. > > ttfn > srw Thank you for taking the trouble....now the next question: - how do I recognize an Appl II from a II+ ? Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 28 09:26:54 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Archiving & other news In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970628002534.00f7bcc8@mail.wizards.net> from "Bruce Lane" at Jun 28, 97 00:25:34 am Message-ID: <9706281326.AA21254@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 380 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970628/45879be9/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 28 09:40:21 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: which month? In-Reply-To: <33B4BAF2.50E7@ndirect.co.uk> from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 28, 97 07:19:14 am Message-ID: <9706281340.AA06930@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1324 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970628/6c5fc9e2/attachment.ksh From MPritchard at ensemble.net Sat Jun 28 09:08:58 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: which month? Message-ID: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF340526@consulting.ensemble.net> I have a book about marketing, written by a Tandy VP which has a large chapter on the birh of the TRS-80. He mentioned the day of the first produced unit, (sept 15th I think) and game totals for the first months or two (It seemed they only managed 3 computer a day for the first week or two). -Mp > -----Original Message----- > From: bwit@pobox.com [SMTP:bwit@pobox.com] > Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 11:51 AM > To: 'classiccmp@u.washington.edu' > Subject: RE: which month? > > > IIRC the TRS-80 was introduced in September 1977. > > ---------- > From: e.tedeschi > Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 7:39 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: which month? > > I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction > of the > three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: > > a) the Apple II > b) the Tandy TRS-80 > c) the Commodore Pet > > I need them for a book on collecting home computers I am > researching > for. > > Thank you > > enrico > -- > ================================================================ > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > website > ================================================================ > visit Brighton: > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jun 28 09:13:11 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: weekend additions Message-ID: <970628101309_408583751@emout07.mail.aol.com> i need some help on what i found this weekend. a trs80 model III 48k. came with trsdos disk, but i havent tested it yet. can anyone point to a source of software. now i need a model ][ to fill in the blanks! a digital microvax ][ it's big. i thought a ps2 model 80 was big, but this eclipses it. not tested yet, but i need info on what it is, what it did, and is it worth keeping? being used to the pc world i didnt see monitor/keyb connections. should i get an ascii terminal to conenct to it to use it? it has a door on the front with something behind it (tape?) but it's locked down. if anyone can point me to a faq id be grateful. there was plenty of xt's and the old pc peripheral expansion unit i might get also. total cost <$20. david From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 28 09:42:48 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Modern Apps on Old Machines Message-ID: <199706281442.AA07223@world.std.com> > lynx is nice, as I use it for fast FTP, but when I read about a PDP11, it > nice to see a picture of one, rather just text. Most people were running altairs and the like in 78... I was a friend started with one in '76. But in 78 he decided a H-11 bas a better deal. H-11 was a DEC LSI-11 cpu card with heathkit made boards around them that were DEC look alikes and a OS that was RT-11 look alike. All of a sudden minies weren't too big or out of range. > everyone forgets is that having limited memory is a pain, > and TCP/IP alone uses 64K in ONE SOCKET ALONE as a buffer. That was true even of most PDP-11s. What the -11 (most minies) had were more efficient IO even if it was floppies. > You have a good point there, and it would work sorta, but patience runs th > after awhile, as decoding images at 1 MHZ does take 1 min, times that wit > 10 or so inlines you will find at every web page, and waiting 10 mins for This is a problem for me with the 486dx/50 and 33.6 modem. Most fo the images unless compressed really do not require much processing (GIFs). > its not about apps, its about efficincy, and operator comfort. VGA or SVG > is worth it becuse it prevents eyestrain, and you can use your system for > longer amounts of time. I used color TV's before when I got started, and > serious word processing was painful to the eyes. RGB's are better, but no I've been using h-19s, vt100s for years to get past the TV displays that generally are low res. > by much. also its about speed. The ability to cut and paste is underrated > as in serious work, it saves gobs of time. I love command line interfaces I could cut and past using editors for cp/m back in '80. Cut and past is an editing feature not a system capability. PCs running windows make it latent on the screen all of the time, thats the difference. When some one said a home machine in say...'80 it was appleII, trs80, S100 or SS50(6800/6809). At that time people that had PDP-8s, -11s, DG novas were scarce. By '86 most of the minies were old and getting accessable cheap and not all were large either!. Move to 1990, people are collecting vaxes (the 780 was new in '78) as most of the 7xx series systems were going to junk. the 730s/750s though slow were small enough to consider for a home. What's forgotten is by 1990 a lot of stuff was over 5-10 years old. Now in 1997, microvaxes (ca 1986-7) are for dumpster diving and these little gems are not slow nor are they under powered and they had VGA or better capabilities and they are collectable. Now what you said is true of many systems. I'd never try to run a modem program on my TI99 at faster than 1200 as it will not keep up. Then again it was by the standards of the time very very slow! It was neat. My systems for the late '70s were s100 for flexibility and speed. I found myself looking at canned systems like TRS80, apple and felt most fo the time like I was running a fuel dragster compared to that. But I was running networks and the like in '81 because I knew of them and could design my own to save a buck (they existed for home computers but were expensive). I got my first PDP-11 in '83 for FREE because the lsi-11 boards and memory were old! It was my first save! The -11 introduced me to small minies, and big performance. Some required a scope and series debugging to get them going but the cost offset that (free). It would be years (1991) before PCs would eclipse the power of the various PDP-11s (many of the 11/23 design) and the software maturity behind it. Many computer consumers knew they wanted performance. It was minies where more could be found. I'd point out that many of the minies were disguised. Alpha Microsystems(ca 1977) had the same chip set as the LSI-11 with a slightly different instruction set modification and was s100, still the same capability. There was the Western Digital Pascal Microengine, Marinechip (PDP-11 in s100), pdt-11/150, Pro350 to name a few that were either pre-pc or on the PC introduction cusp.While home computing was commodores and apples and trs80 they were the appliance machines for many. There was always a core of those that felt they were nice and had good ideas but, they wanted more. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 28 09:42:55 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <199706281442.AA07298@world.std.com> > A microVAX or any of the VAXEN is NOT a home computer. I know that PC's > were not the first ones to do it and never claimed it, and what I am talki Define home computer? In the early days of PCs(xt class) pro350s, PDP11 with color graphics and hard disk. These were single user multitasking systems in the same price range asna loaded xt. > about is the person who still uses his apple ][, and has never touched > anything else, saying everything else is junk. sure a Mini workstation ca > do it, no question about it, but I *KNOW* that a kaypro, apple ][+ C=64, > coleco ADAM, 8 bit Ataris and other HOME computers of that era CAN'T handl Thein lies my point. These were the low end of the spectrum, low cost and performance at the low end of the spectrum for what the cpu used could do. Though the apple was one of the better ones. Really, an ADAM and interestig machine uses a z80 it was slow compared to many due to how it was implemented. Same for many others. C64s/128 are fast machines... throttled to slow by a slow serial link to the disk. Every one of those machines were interesting but crippled perfomance wise. Granted often it was done for cost reasons. Even the kaypro, while fairly fast has the slowest screen on the planet. I say that lovingly as I have one but while it can transfer files at 9600 if it writes to screen 2400 may be too fast. This is not an inditement of their collectability or other interesting ideas they brought forward. It is a cold assessment of their performance when measured against their respective CPU standards (1980 z80-4mhz, 6502-2mhz, 6800-2mhz, 6809-2mhz, ti9900-3.3mhz, 8086/8-5mhz...) and what they could do when run at that performance level. So when you say the ti99/4a was to slow to do real IP or multiuser(acceptably) it was the TI99/4a not the 9900 cpu or other 9900 designs which could. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 28 10:00:04 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: which month? Message-ID: <199706281500.AA19094@world.std.com> > I have a book about marketing, written by a Tandy VP which has a large > chapter on the birh of the TRS-80. He mentioned the day of the first > produced unit, (sept 15th I think) and game totals for the first months > or two (It seemed they only managed 3 computer a day for the first week > or two). The august/september was the dates!. Also the first few months were a learning experience for TANDY ftworth as they didn't know how to properly handle mos devices, inline QC and do testing non destructively. The early yeilds were horrendously low! The dry air and mishandling ment most of the mos and much ttl were no good by time the were in the board or were killed on the board. I vaguly remember saying when I saw the way things were beign done "you have got to be kidding!" and several people stated investigating ESD procedure and manufacturing QC. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 28 10:00:12 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: weekend additions Message-ID: <199706281500.AA19218@world.std.com> > a digital microvax ][ I assume you man a MicroVAXII, only apple used the ][. > it's big. i thought a ps2 model 80 was big, but this eclipses it. not test > yet, but i need info on what it is, what it did, and is it worth keeping? Ba23, ba123 or ba213 box? There were also the 1cuft vaxen (vs2000). IF you think the vax was big the 21" color monitor dwarfed it! > being used to the pc world i didnt see monitor/keyb connections. should i > an ascii terminal to conenct to it to use it? it has a door on the front w > something behind it (tape?) but it's locked down. if anyone can point me t > faq id be grateful. Around back of the unit. Depending on version it was terminal (vt100/220/320...) or vr290/320 monitor mouse and keyboard. Allison From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Sat Jun 28 10:11:18 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: which month? In-Reply-To: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF340526@consulting.ensemble.net> Message-ID: What was the name of that book? Wasn't it something about a mouse? Like, To Catch a Mouse, Make a Noise Like A Cheese? Curious to know. Thanks, CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Matt Pritchard wrote: > I have a book about marketing, written by a Tandy VP which has a large > chapter on the birh of the TRS-80. He mentioned the day of the first > produced unit, (sept 15th I think) and game totals for the first months > or two (It seemed they only managed 3 computer a day for the first week > or two). > -Mp > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: bwit@pobox.com [SMTP:bwit@pobox.com] > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 11:51 AM > > To: 'classiccmp@u.washington.edu' > > Subject: RE: which month? > > > > > > IIRC the TRS-80 was introduced in September 1977. > > > > ---------- > > From: e.tedeschi > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 7:39 AM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: which month? > > > > I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction > > of the > > three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: > > > > a) the Apple II > > b) the Tandy TRS-80 > > c) the Commodore Pet > > > > I need them for a book on collecting home computers I am > > researching > > for. > > > > Thank you > > > > enrico > > -- > > ================================================================ > > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > > website > > ================================================================ > > visit Brighton: > > > > > From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sat Jun 28 10:31:57 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Computer Usage & Commodore internet... References: <199706280702.AAA12803@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33B52E6D.3335@goldrush.com> Well some of my collection gets a good workout. The most notable is the Commodore 64 running my BBS, the Silicon Realms, which has been on-line for just over 10 years using 64s (this is the second 64, before it the BBS was running on my then only 64 and my 128 for a while, all the original computers still work.) I would say that this BBS is probably one of the most stable low-end BBSs it can run litterally for weeks (it is networked to other boards, mind you) without nary a crash. Nowadays I can bump my commie BBS to 14.4k and have a 20mghz accelerator to keep up with the big bards, but alot of that stuff isn't considered classic yet... Across the room (more like spin around in the chair) is the 128, which I still use to program stuff on as well as create disks for people and stuff, lately it has seen increased use. A PET and a couple 64s made it out of storage for my last BBS gathering and helped entertain attendees. (Many of the IBM gamers fondly remembered and played on the 64s for a while.) I think I'll bring more classics to future ones, (I hope to have asteroids for the Atari by then, it has a 4-player game option). ------------ Currently most of the Commodore 64/128 users on the internet are using terminals and connecting via provider's shell-accounts. There is a version of SLIP for the Commodore and also a HTML viewer (off-line from what I gather), but more and more word on bigger and better things coming "real soon now". The Wave, a terminal for the GEOS environment is supposed to have text HTML viewing capabilities, graphics is a pretty big hurdle for our little machines, it's not in the size per se (images can be scaled down), but in the volume of processing these huge image files will require, many of which are 2 to 5 times our computer's memory! But that never stopped the determined hacker. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Jun 28 10:59:45 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: which month? In-Reply-To: <33B4BAF2.50E7@ndirect.co.uk> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970628085945.006ecbd0@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:19 AM 6/28/97 +0000, you wrote: >Thank you for taking the trouble....now the next question: > >- how do I recognize an Appl II from a II+ ? Well... the most direct (and obvious B^} ) way is from the name plate. If it does not say "plus" in green letters, it is (or was) not. But more correctly, (AIR) the Apple II was equipped with the Integer BASIC roms, and the II Plus with Applesoft BASIC roms. To add to the confusion, you can look at the logic board to the left of the RAM array, and if there are jumper blocks marked (in some combinations) "4K", "16K", then you also have an earlier revision motherboard (and more likely a II than a Plus). -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 28 12:34:47 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: More Apple motherboard details In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970628085945.006ecbd0@agora.rdrop.com> from "Jim Willing" at Jun 28, 97 08:59:45 am Message-ID: <9706281634.AA14069@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1740 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970628/118ca5f3/attachment.ksh From maynard at jmg.com Sat Jun 28 12:24:35 1997 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <02440020302929@michianatoday.com> Message-ID: [followup text throughout document] On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, tiborj wrote: > At 08:59 AM 6/27/97 BST, you wrote: > >> I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a > >> modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full > >> photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am > > > >I have used 'modern' PC's (well, at least pentiums with 16 MBytes RAM, > >SVGA card, etc), and I know I'm not missing _anything_ by sticking to > >classic computers. Let's go through your points. > > > What I mean is that we must realize that there is only so much you can do > with classic computers. after all, if they were the best than why we have > faster and better? > I don't think there's a single person on this list who hasn't used a modern PC, with or without Microsoft Software. As for UNIX implemetations on the PC, I certainly remember XENIX running on a 286 many years back. Mini Linux currently runs at about .02 bogomips on an XT. The biggest advance in PC architecture isn't the cheap Memory, cheap high res cards, and cheap VLSI specialty chips... it was the 386 with functional memory protection. Big deal. That said, a 386 these days is usually about as cheap as a 'classic' 8 bit machine - mostly because at a certain point a computer just can't *get* any cheaper - and will run Linux or *BSD wonderfully. Big advantage here over Atari and Amiga 68000 based hardware is the high availability of dirt cheap networking and disk hardware... other than that, I'll take the 68000 based stuff any day as a personal preferance. Here's an interesting idea, now that mini Linux seems to be up and running, there appears to be a good code base for porting it over to other old 8 bit and 16 bit chips. The TI-99/4a, RS COCO, PDP-11, and old S-100 based z80 (with MMU) boxes appear to be good candidates. Yes... there is *lots* of machine specific code in the mini Linux implementation. It would be a good deal more than just getting the boot loader up and running then tweaking and compiling the kernel. Still it might be a fun hack! I have a friend who's attempting a 3b2 Linux port single handedly... why not the Color Computer with it's fairly powerful 6809? > >'Web pages in full photo quality colour'. Well, I access the web to get > >information, not look at pretty pictures. Most of the information I want > >is _text_, or at least monochrome graphics (things like IC data sheets). > >So I don't need 'photo quality colour'. And if I did, I could easily find > > well at the moment you dont need it, but its nice to know that you can see > it when you need it. > > >a classic system that could display them. Evans and Sutherland, Grinnell, > >Ramtek, I2S, PPL, etc all made high-res colour displays that make most > >PC's look like toys. And you can pick one up second-hand for less than an > >SVGA card + monitor. > > SVGA a toy? I used many an apple ][ + and C=64 with 80 col RGB monitors, and > I can take only so much eyestrain. sharp graphics make your eyes feel good... > also I would like to clarify somthing. I am not a billy gates follower. I > despise his efforts and his software. and winsucks 95 is a laugh!! but > the issue is machines, and if you run Linux, as I do, that pentium will > spring to life! so the PC is not the greatest machine, but if you run > software that was properly written, (i.e. not from microsuck) you get > fantastic results, that is why I like my commodore 64, it can do alot on 1 MHZ. Yes yes yes yes. SVGA is a *TOY* compared to what was available to those with million dollar budgets 20 years ago. The old hardware ran slower in clock speed but was most certainly capable of *extream* high resolution. I don't expect 2048 x 2048 displays for a few years yet on PC's, but if you were the military with a money is no object budget in 1975, you better believe such hardware was available. I like my PC just fine as well, and won't argue about processor capability, RAM requirements, and the like in comparison to a TRS-80 MOdel 1 for instance. However, the majority of software titiles around today are offshoots of software commonly available back then.... Visicalc and Wordstar are but two examples. And yes, freeware UNIX implmentations are about the most exciting thing happening on the PC today from a hobbyist hacker standpoint. The wonderful thing about Linux and NetBSD is the wide architecture support, not just the fact that serious development tools are now available for free on the PC. They are *also* availble to Atari ST fans, Amiga fans, old Macintosh hardware, Sun3 hardware, cheap Sparc and Alpha platforms... and like I suggested before, I wouldn't doubt for a minute the possibility of newer ports to classic PDP, VAX, Apollo, PRIME, and 8 bit machines. There is just so much usable hardware out there waiting for a modern OS.... [snip - re: games] Game designers have strongly benefitted from higher processor speeds and cheap RAM. Look at game consols like Nintendo 64 and Sega... they display about the same 320x200 pixel resolution, but have a much larger color pallete and much faster display hardware. The games look great! It's not surprising that newer PC and Mac hardware would also benefit from their advances. > > >'PPP connections' Oh come on. I've run a PPP client on an _XT_. No problem > >at all. I'll happily believe they're available for other old machines as > >well. > well we all believe, but sadly, this does not always work that way. I have > an XT too, and yes you can load a packet driver, but then 640K is not big > enough except to run telnet or ftp from. I use my XT as a file server... > [snip] > to me, a PDP11 is WORLDS apart from classic HOME computers, If I had the > fortune of actually owing a PDP11, I would use it extensively..... :) > PDP-11 hardware is still widely available. You could build youself a functinal Qbus LSI-11/73 or 83 for less than $500 easy. Most of this hardware is sitting in old factories and still in production. There are many hardware outlets out there such as ELI in cambridge MA, which support and provide access to this old stuff... I would attempt to buy a non functional machine (or functional if possible) from some company about to toss it, and then upgrade from some used MINI supplier. Expect a lower heating bill and a *MUCH* higher electric bill if this is in the plans... ;-) You might also want to think of a decent used microVAX.... wonderful machine based on the same Qbus. [snip - 486's are cheap] Yup, can't argue with that. J. Maynard Gelinas From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sat Jun 28 12:51:33 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: DOS 2.11 software (fwd) Message-ID: OK guys, here is a request I got, maybe someone can help this poor guy! Thanks, Les ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 08:26:19 -0400 (EDT) From: KenpoKidJB@aol.com To: more@camlaw.Rutgers.EDU Subject: software hey, i went to your web site, but didn't find what i wanted. i'm looking for dos 2.11 programs that will run off of a 3.5" floppy. most specifically, i'm especially looking for games. any kind will do, but even more specifically, i'm looking for text driven adventure games, as my kaypro 2000 LCD screen doesn't do very well with graphics!! so, let me know what you can do for me.. i really appreciate it. Jeremiah From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 28 12:52:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Panasonic Handhelds Message-ID: PANASONIC HANDHELD UPDATE: This is the latest message from Mike who has the hundreds of Panasonic HandHeld computers. In case its not obvious what's going on, I put in an offer of $10 each for 50, $9 each for 100, $8 each for 150, etc. I don't have $2000 lying around with which to buy them all up. I have a plan, but first read what Mike had to say: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:39:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikeooo1@aol.com To: dastar@crl.com Subject: Re: EPROM Burners re: Classic Computers Dear Sam, I believe the total number of HHC's available will be about 400.Based on your offer I assume that for 150 of the units you would be willing to pay at the rate of $10 for the first 50,$9 for the next 50, $8 for the next 50 and $7 for the next 50 whcih would come to $1700 for 200 units.Would you be interested in 300 units for $2000 even?To make the offer even sweeter I'll throw in the memory expander trays with each unit.The cost for each tray alone was well over $100 when they were purchased,as well as a quantity of the MCM 68674 8K eprom chips that the programs were written on. As always Best Regards, Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ END FORWARD So here's my plan...anyone and everyone who is interested, reply to ME (do not reply to classiccmp! People will hate you and want to drown your pets!) telling me how many you want. Do this soon. I will save all of your e-mails and then at the end of say, 10 days I will tally up the total and make Mike an offer. So again... Reply to ME only (dastar@crl.com) Tell me HOW MANY of the Panasonic HandHeld Computers you want. Do it SOON. You have about 10 days. Price will be NO MORE THAN $10 EACH. I'll get back to everyone in 10 days or so. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sat Jun 28 13:10:50 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Here's an interesting idea, now that mini Linux seems to be up and > running, there appears to be a good code base for porting it over to other > old 8 bit and 16 bit chips. The TI-99/4a, RS COCO, PDP-11, and old S-100 > based z80 (with MMU) boxes appear to be good candidates. Yes... there is > *lots* of machine specific code in the mini Linux implementation. It > would be a good deal more than just getting the boot loader up and running > then tweaking and compiling the kernel. Still it might be a fun hack! I > have a friend who's attempting a 3b2 Linux port single handedly... why not I think I have met this fellow somewhere. Is his name Dave or something like that? If I remember rightly, he just did a Linux port for some other machine (forget) and gave a speech about it at the Linux Convention in North Carolina a few months back. As for the 3B2 port, what kind of 3B2 are we talking about? 300/400 series or more closer to a 1000? Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 28 13:23:14 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Interesting S100 boards Message-ID: I just discovered some *VERY* interesting S100 boards that I didn't realize I had in my box 'o S-100 boards. They seem to be some kind of Atari development/prototyping system. The boards are: 65xx Emulator, part no. 100-015-2, (c) 1983 Atari [this is the PCB only] Trace Memory Interface, part no, 100-003-2, (c) 1983 Atari 6502 Processor, part no. 100-003-2, has a 6502 and some other stuff, such as a clock speed DIP switch (1, 2, 4 MHZ settings), some RAM, a couple ribbon cable connectors. I have 2 of these boards but one is incomplete (does not have all the chips the other one does). All have the Atari name and logo and a copyright date of 1983. Also have these: the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1 California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] Any idea what this stuff is? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 28 13:40:03 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <199706281840.AA28882@world.std.com> > Here's an interesting idea, now that mini Linux seems to be up and > running, there appears to be a good code base for porting it over to othe > old 8 bit and 16 bit chips. The TI-99/4a, RS COCO, PDP-11, and old S-100 > based z80 (with MMU) boxes appear to be good candidates. Yes... there is UZI unix was on the z80 already so it's doable. > Yes yes yes yes. SVGA is a *TOY* compared to what was available > to those with million dollar budgets 20 years ago. The old hardware ran > slower in clock speed but was most certainly capable of *extream* high By 1986 1280x1024 color was about $25k and small (allowing for the 19" monitor). MicrovaxII/gpx... now you can find them in dumpsters. > PDP-11 hardware is still widely available. You could build > youself a functinal Qbus LSI-11/73 or 83 for less than $500 easy. Most o > this hardware is sitting in old factories and still in production. There > are many hardware outlets out there such as ELI in cambridge MA, which At $500 I'd have a killer PDP11. Most of mine are scrap/salvage or trades. I'm letting a PDP11/23b go for very little as I have one and they are common enough and powerful enough to run multiuser OS or one of the unixes out there. > ;-) You might also want to think of a decent used microVAX.... wonderful > machine based on the same Qbus. I got a working vs2000 from someone elses dumpster trip so they are common and they can do eithernet, PPP, 1280x1024 graphics (color was an option), 6-16mb of ram in a 1cuft box witha 160w powersupply (small PC!). The real trick is getting a disk (rd54 was the largest supported at 150mb) as SCSI is there but not bootable other than DEC tk50 tape. The other problem is an OS though DEC has made VMS6.1 available with a free license, compared to VMS DOS is a toy! There are people doing a netBSD for it as well. Other boxsized vaxen are 3100 and friends most being very high performance (2.5-3VUP, a 780=1VUP). larger MicrovaxII configs are common and generally free to cheap and most of the same thing apply save for bigger. Even the BA123 boxed VAXen are under 500w in practice, since most pcs are in the 230-270 watt range it's not as bad as it would seem. Other small vaxen in the "Sbox" incluude the 3400, 3500. they are faster and still pre-1990.. The older Vax 780/1/2/5 systems are three good sized racks plus and serious power. The later smaller (slower) 730s are one to two short (40") racks and under 1000w for mall configs (save 1 or 2 ra80/81 disks). RA81 is 200mb IMS. The next faster was the 750 and that can also run on household power but, just barely. Allison From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sat Jun 28 17:29:32 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Interesting S100 boards References: Message-ID: <33B5904C.17EB@unix.aardvarkol.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > 65xx Emulator, part no. 100-015-2, (c) 1983 Atari [this is the PCB only] > Trace Memory Interface, part no, 100-003-2, (c) 1983 Atari > 6502 Processor, part no. 100-003-2, has a 6502 and some other stuff, such > as a clock speed DIP switch (1, 2, 4 MHZ settings), some RAM, a couple > ribbon cable connectors. I have 2 of these boards but one is incomplete > (does not have all the chips the other one does). > All have the Atari name and logo and a copyright date of 1983. From the dates, it looks like it might be some kind of developement board for the XL series. How much RAM does it have? The 800XL had 64k I believe. It sounds like a cool setup! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ccm at sentex.net Sat Jun 28 14:54:00 1997 From: ccm at sentex.net (Commercial Computing Museum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Historical Research Message-ID: <199706281954.PAA23890@granite.sentex.net> Nope no serial number info. Thanks for the encouragement about the CD version. Kevin Stumpf From ccm at sentex.net Sat Jun 28 14:56:08 1997 From: ccm at sentex.net (Commercial Computing Museum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Domestic Commercial Computing Power Message-ID: <199706281956.PAA24039@granite.sentex.net> Great idea to include peripherals. Never thought of that. I would rather you see a sample of the book before making a purchase decision. Please reply with your postal address and I send a few pages - don't have scanned copies for faxing or emailing. Kevin Stumpf From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 28 15:09:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Interesting S100 boards In-Reply-To: <33B5904C.17EB@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > 65xx Emulator, part no. 100-015-2, (c) 1983 Atari [this is the PCB only] > > Trace Memory Interface, part no, 100-003-2, (c) 1983 Atari > > 6502 Processor, part no. 100-003-2, has a 6502 and some other stuff, such > > as a clock speed DIP switch (1, 2, 4 MHZ settings), some RAM, a couple > > ribbon cable connectors. I have 2 of these boards but one is incomplete > > (does not have all the chips the other one does). > > All have the Atari name and logo and a copyright date of 1983. > > From the dates, it looks like it might be some kind of developement > board for the XL series. How much RAM does it have? The 800XL had 64k > I believe. It sounds like a cool setup! Just took a closer look. The 6502 Processor board doesn't have any RAM after all, just 74xx chips. The Trace Memory Interface has 3 Intersil 6402 chips on it. What are those? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jun 27 18:08:36 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Modern Apps on Old Machines Message-ID: <199706282155.OAA12937@mx2.u.washington.edu> Let's not forget that old machines were, in their day, designed to be used by *mainstream* users. So, let's look at the people who would -- nowadays -- use old machines. 1) Newbies/inexperienced users. Are these people willing to put up inadequate documentation, unbelievably klunky software with *no* tech support? No -- no more than they were willing to when the machines were new. 2) Power users? most would laugh at the idea of using a "relic". They would be no more caught dead with one than a photographic toy-boy would with a point-and-shoot camera (altho' many pros, with nothing to prove, use P&S's as cheap backup cameras. Don't tell anyone ) 3) People who love it? few and far between. Sure, you can do e-mail, use lynx to check out the web on an XT (I cheat...I use a 386SX lap top with a 2400 baud modem). Using an old machine to perform routine tasks -- tasks for which the machines were originally designed and sold -- in no way ennobles the person who does so...it's just a hobby, rife with the same inconveniences that plague any undertaking. Most people have some sort of hobby, (altho' usually not as technical) and go through the same inconveniences we do, working with their love. I do a fair amount of photographic retouching on my P-133. I need large amounts of disk space (up to 30 MB per), memory, processing speed -- otherwise, I just can't do it. (I can't just go have a cup of coffee.) I do publication and page layout, and WSYWIG is an enormous convenience. (sure, LaTeX on the VAX gives me nice output. Give me Microsoft Publisher to get work done a lot faster...I have to feed my family.) As an engineer, I used to do finite element analysis on rubber products. Running on a 486-50 (the fastest available at the time) a single job would run overnight. Try *that* on a PDP-11! The point? (He finally gets to one!)Many tasks can be accomplished easily on an XT running 1-2-3 or QEDIT -- sure. But, many jobs are now possible to do on a garden-variety PC (mac) which were impossible to perform on older machines. From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jun 27 18:13:07 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Video game machine/Computer With 6800 Processor Message-ID: <199706282155.OAA28663@mx5.u.washington.edu> > It came out approx at the same time as the Atari 400/800 series > (78-79?) > > I remember seeing an ad on it and the heading of the ad was > "imagination machine". Mattel? From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 28 18:36:47 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Video game machine/Computer With 6800 Processor In-Reply-To: <199706282155.OAA28663@mx5.u.washington.edu> from "PG Manney" at Jun 27, 97 07:13:07 pm Message-ID: <9706282236.AA20206@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 204 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970628/6c17db7e/attachment.ksh From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sat Jun 28 22:41:16 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: C= 16 & Plus/4 cartridges References: Message-ID: <33B5D95C.3D47@unix.aardvarkol.com> For the first time since I actively started collecting old systems and the software and peripherals, I finally came across some program cartridges for the C-16 & Plus/4 today. They came from a guy who does a flea market each weekend and who keeps an eye out for 8bit stuff, and he picked them up with me in mind. They are 'Strange Odyssey' and 'Jack Attack'. Anyway, my question is, since these are the only ones I've ever run across, other than the cartridge that shipped with the C-16, were there many made for these machines? Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 28 19:25:19 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <1917@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > BUT- > viewing a photo on a CRT in 16 million colors is still 100% better than > having only 16 colors... There was a thing that came out in 1979/1980 called an I2S model 70 image processor. It used (in at least one configuration) _30_ bits per pixel, although only at a resolution of 512*512 pixels. If you're only used to home micros I can understand why you think old machines can't display 'photo-quality' images, but there were plenty of larger machines that are now turning up second-hand at prices that collectors can afford that have significant graphics abilities. -tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 28 19:31:17 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <1918@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <02440020302929@michianatoday.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > At 08:59 AM 6/27/97 BST, you wrote: > >> I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a > >> modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full > >> photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am > > > >I have used 'modern' PC's (well, at least pentiums with 16 MBytes RAM, > >SVGA card, etc), and I know I'm not missing _anything_ by sticking to > >classic computers. Let's go through your points. > > > What I mean is that we must realize that there is only so much you can do > with classic computers. after all, if they were the best than why we have > faster and better? And there's only so much you can do with PC's :-) Seriously, It's obvious that the _real_ top end today is faster than the top end 10 years ago. It's also obvious that the 'home computer' of today (which is probably a pentium PC) is better than the home computer of 10 eyars ago (say a Commodore 64). But it's not at all obvious that the home computer of today is any better than a 10 year old top-end personal workstation or a minicomputer, or a number of other things. And those are turning up very cheaply if you know where to look. > > >'Web pages in full photo quality colour'. Well, I access the web to get > >information, not look at pretty pictures. Most of the information I want > >is _text_, or at least monochrome graphics (things like IC data sheets). > >So I don't need 'photo quality colour'. And if I did, I could easily find > > well at the moment you dont need it, but its nice to know that you can see > it when you need it. I don't necessarily buy hardware on the grounds that I _might_ need the facilities one day. As what I already have does all I need, then I see no reason to upgrade (downgrade?) And if I did ever need to display a 'photo-quality' image, I can find a few systems around here (all over 10 years old) that could do it trivially. > >a classic system that could display them. Evans and Sutherland, Grinnell, > >Ramtek, I2S, PPL, etc all made high-res colour displays that make most > >PC's look like toys. And you can pick one up second-hand for less than an > >SVGA card + monitor. > > SVGA a toy? I used many an apple ][ + and C=64 with 80 col RGB monitors, and Compared to the machines I've named, SVGA is a toy... > I can take only so much eyestrain. sharp graphics make your eyes feel good... This, alas shows how little you know about the state of graphics 10 years ago Give me a break. I am _NOT_ talking about home micros. I am talking about professional graphics displays with hardware anti-alliasing of displayed objects. I am talking about 512*512*30 bit images. I am talking about broadcast-quality TV images (if you should need to go to such a low scan rate). I am talking about 3D displays with LCD spectacles. Etc, Etc, Etc. I've had more than my fair share of eyestrain from impossible-to-converge SVGA monitors. I've battled with the service manuals for _hours_ on some of them and not been able to get the convergence right. I'm then pleased that Barco, Fimi, Sony (the older ones at least), Philips, Moniterm, KNE, etc, etc, etc did make decent, easy-to-set-up monitors 10 years ago or more. [...] > >we had good quality audio on PDP11's (thanks to a little board from 3RCC) > >in 1976. It's not exactly hard to add a DAC and a DMA engine or even a DSP > >to a lot of classic computers (and classic computer != cheap home micro so > >there's easily enough RAM space for a reasonable length sample). > > to me, a PDP11 is WORLDS apart from classic HOME computers, If I had the > fortune of actually owing a PDP11, I would use it extensively..... :) AFAIK, this is a classic computers list, and not a classic home computers list Anyway the PDP11 is a home computer now. I know dozens of people who run one or more at home. I've payed a lot less for any of my PDP11's that you'd pay for a pentium motherboard + CPU. That's complete PDP11's with disks, realtime I/O, terminals, graphics options, SCSI interfaces, etc, etc, etc. > >for most modern machines > >Repairability. I can fix classic computers with no problem at all. Just > I have never had any hardware failures in ANY of my machines so far (knock > on silicon), with the exception that I accidentally cooked a 6526. > Maybe I've been unlucky, but I have had hardware failures. > >try getting a custom chip for a PC motherboard. And don't tell me to > >replace the motherboard - if the PC is a few years old I'd probably have > >to replace the CPU and memory as well. > > that is just the ticket. A brand new 486 motherboard cost $90. with it you > get real functionality. Wait a second. ISA graphics cards are already getting hard to find. So, presumably, if I have a not-too-old PC with an ISA graphics card and some custom chip dies, I have to buy a PCI graphics card, a new motherboard, a new processor, and either new memory or some SIMM converters. No thanks - I'll stick to my classics where repairing consists of picking up the service manual, finding the dead chip in about 10 minutes, and replacing it with one from either my junk box of the local electronics shop. > actually, you can get a decent modern PC together just by scrounging > computer shows and bargaining for parts. assembling a system from scratch > with old parts is very fun and rewarding. and the reliablity rate for modern > chips is very high. in fact the monitor or hard disk probably will die I've had modern custom chips fail for 'no good reason'. > before the motherboard will. Monitors can often be repaired for a lot less than the cost of a new one. Yes, the motherboard will probably outlast the hard disk, but that's (IMHO) because modern hard disks are darn unreliable (I've had several die on me, and without a clean room there's not a lot I can do). That doesn't mean the motherboard won't fail, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 28 20:00:19 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Modern Apps on Old Machines Message-ID: <1919@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> [...] > I love the internet, and I learned ALOT from it. sure a shell account with > lynx is nice, as I use it for fast FTP, but when I read about a PDP11, it is > nice to see a picture of one, rather just text. Alternatively I could just pick up one of about 30 PDP11 manuals I have lying about and not only see a picture of the outsides, but also see board layouts, schematics, timing charts, microcode flowcharts, and other useful info I've never found pictures of the outside of computers to be particularly interesting. The useful diagrams (see above) are just as useful on a 1-bit- per-pixel display. > >3. What other apps are there that are REALLY useful for home use that > >modern machines have and "home computers" don't? And is is really > > its not about apps, its about efficincy, and operator comfort. VGA or SVGA OK, I'm using my (much hacked) PC/AT (true-blue IBM, and just about on-topic here) at this moment. The display is a clone Hercules card driving that Zenith monitor with the 'interesting' PSU. After I fixed the PSU and tweaked the internal controls, I have an image _for text_ that's as sharp as any cheap SVGA monitor I've ever seen. No eyestrain at all. If you want colour, look at an old Barco (or Fimi, Philips, etc) monitor. Some of those are very well focused and converged. > is worth it becuse it prevents eyestrain, and you can use your system for > longer amounts of time. I used color TV's before when I got started, and > serious word processing was painful to the eyes. RGB's are better, but not RGB simply means that the video signal is sent along 3 separate cables for the 3 primary colours. Technically a VGA or SVGA monitor is an RGB monitor. > all in all, if the machine you use now does all what you want, thats great! > but the day WILL come where you just need to have a feature that you have In which case I'll do what I've always done in the past when this happens. I'll either find a classic machine that already has this feature or I'll build a bit of hardware to add it to whatever machine I feel like. > not got now. that is just the way the computing cookie crumbles. > -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 28 20:10:53 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: Interesting S100 boards Message-ID: <1920@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > Also have these: > > the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1 > California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square > and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] I think this is what it says it is - a data encyption/decryption system. I have a thing called a 'modem maximiser' (a serial port data buffer box with a real time clock, parallel printer port, etc) that has an optional encryption unit. It too was a potted module. As I had a few spare modules I cut one apart and found it contained an 8032 (I think) microcontroller, RAM, a ROM (I must desolder that and examine it) and a TTL latch. Pretty much what you'd expect - a little microcontroller that reads in data, encrypts it, and sends it out again. > > Any idea what this stuff is? > > > Sam -tony From dynasoar at mindspring.com Sun Jun 29 09:30:52 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (dynasoar) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:11 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > If I remember rightly, he just did a Linux port for some other > machine (forget) and gave a speech about it at the Linux Convention in > North Carolina a few months back. > What Linux Convention? Could you pass on a little more details about who, what and where, in private e-mail, if no one else is interested. Thanks. Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From sinasohn at crl.com Sat Jun 28 20:00:44 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970628180452.5b3f270e@mail.crl.com> At 09:38 PM 6/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >Unfortunately, it was a classic design at the time - a lot of people >thought it looked like a dumb terminal (VT100). An awful lot of people have painted pictures of pretty women... Still, there's only one Mona Lisa. Sometimes it just takes a slight modification to turn the ordinary into the extraordinary. I still say the Lisa gets an out-of-the-park home run on aesthetics. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Sat Jun 28 20:01:22 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: Computer Trivia Game Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970628180530.5b3f57e2@mail.crl.com> At 01:07 PM 6/27/97 -0400, you wrote: >> Anyone remember a trivial-pursuit-like Computer Trivia game? It was >I have computer-based trivia game (shareware, I think) on a CD-ROM. I could >dig it up, if anyone want it...it had pretty hard questions, which went >'way back to the dawn of time (you know, like the 1950's :> )) Actually, that does sound neat -- if you com across it, I'd love a copy. However, the game I was thinking of was one that had cards and (I think) a board, like trivpursuit. (I know my brother actually won a copy at the West Coast Computer Faire, but he's an a$$h@le and we aren't in contact.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From rcini at msn.com Sat Jun 28 20:02:11 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: ROM Archive Message-ID: Sam: > 1. Record format: open (depending on software for EPROM programmer); S-records, Intel Hex, binary. >> I'm no expert at this so I'll defer. The various hex records are ASCII representations, so I figured that they can be transferred with no problem by e-mail. If we're doing ftp, it doesn't matter > 2. Submission & storage: UUEncoded image file e-mailed to "repository"; ROM/EPROM chips sent by snail mail and returned. All submissions should have as much info about the source computer as possible (board revisions, date of manufacture, etc.) >>Sounds good. The repository then is a "soft" repository of ROM images? Yes. This way, we can transfer it, or burn it. > 3. Requests & withdrawls: by e-mail to those with programmers; by mail for those supplying their own chips; e-mail request with no chip sent. >> I assumed since the images are merely files they could be downloaded by anyone requesting them. Is the repository also going to have physical EPROMS that someone can request? If so, why? THe only reason to have EPROMs available is for those who are incapable of burning EPROMs them selves. > 4. Cost: nominal (cost of postage and EPROM). >> Is the repository also going to be in the business of supplying people with pre-burnt EPROMS? If so then 3 makes more sense now. Sure, why not. I don't think that there will be a huge demand, so the repository will not keep pre-burned ROMs on hand. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 28 22:57:45 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: which month? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > What was the name of that book? Wasn't it something about a mouse? Like, > To Catch a Mouse, Make a Noise Like A Cheese? > > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Matt Pritchard wrote: > > > I have a book about marketing, written by a Tandy VP which has a large > > chapter on the birh of the TRS-80. He mentioned the day of the first > > produced unit, (sept 15th I think) and game totals for the first months > > or two (It seemed they only managed 3 computer a day for the first week > > or two). _To Catch a Mouse, Make a Noise Like a Cheese_ was indeed the title, by Lou Kornfeld, president of Radio Shack and originator of the "Flyer-Side Chat" column that was a regular feature in Radio Shack retail flyers for so many years. He was managing one of the (8 or 9) original Radio Shack stores in Boston when Charles Tandy bought the company in about 1964 (and proceeded to expand the chain by three orders of magnitude). I forget if the book was released before or after he retired. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu Sat Jun 28 22:59:50 1997 From: ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu (Yujin Nagasawa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: HELP Message-ID: <199706290356.XAA15036@abel.ic.sunysb.edu> ---------- > ???o?l : Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers > ???? : Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > ???? : RE: which month? > ???M???? : 1997?N6??28?? 23:57 > > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > > > What was the name of that book? Wasn't it something about a mouse? Like, > > To Catch a Mouse, Make a Noise Like A Cheese? > > > > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Matt Pritchard wrote: > > > > > I have a book about marketing, written by a Tandy VP which has a large > > > chapter on the birh of the TRS-80. He mentioned the day of the first > > > produced unit, (sept 15th I think) and game totals for the first months > > > or two (It seemed they only managed 3 computer a day for the first week > > > or two). > > _To Catch a Mouse, Make a Noise Like a Cheese_ was indeed the title, by > Lou Kornfeld, president of Radio Shack and originator of the "Flyer-Side > Chat" column that was a regular feature in Radio Shack retail flyers for > so many years. He was managing one of the (8 or 9) original Radio Shack > stores in Boston when Charles Tandy bought the company in about 1964 (and > proceeded to expand the chain by three orders of magnitude). I forget if > the book was released before or after he retired. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 28 22:52:33 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: Interesting S100 boards In-Reply-To: <1920@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > In message classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > > Also have these: > > > > the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1 > > California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square > > and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] > > I think this is what it says it is - a data encyption/decryption system. Really!? :) Of course, but for what purpose? It has no I/O connectors. I assume you pump data into it over the bus. I was hoping someone would have some specific data on it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 28 22:45:14 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: C= 16 & Plus/4 cartridges In-Reply-To: <33B5D95C.3D47@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > For the first time since I actively started collecting old systems and > the software and peripherals, I finally came across some program > cartridges for the C-16 & Plus/4 today. They came from a guy who does a > flea market each weekend and who keeps an eye out for 8bit stuff, and he > picked them up with me in mind. They are 'Strange Odyssey' and 'Jack > Attack'. Anyway, my question is, since these are the only ones I've > ever run across, other than the cartridge that shipped with the C-16, > were there many made for these machines? In all my days of scrouning I have yet to run across a C16 or Plus/4 carthridge. Does this mean not many were made? I couldn't say with absolute assurety, but being that the Plus/4 flopped, I would speculate and say "yes". I've yet to run across a C16 either. And I'm in California, where you'd expect to find everything and anything. Which leads me to this: were some computers marketed on a regional basis in the US? It seems that in some places in the country, some stuff is easier to find than in others. Can any of you who were involved in the marketing and distribution of computers shed any light on this? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From thedm at sunflower.com Sat Jun 28 23:17:09 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: PCjr Cartridges? Message-ID: <199706290415.XAA02630@challenge.sunflower.com> I have, BASIC Lotus 1-2-3, {but can't get to work} Mouser MineShaft I'd like to have anything you can find. ---------- > From: thedm > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: PCjr Cartridges? > Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:08 PM > > Im interested in the PCjr carts. I have the basic one, but I can post a > list of what I have. > > ---------- > > From: Uncle Roger > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Subject: PCjr Cartridges? > > Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 8:27 PM > > > > Saw today a few cartridges which I'm guessing are PCjr carts. They said > > (among other things) "Cartridge BASIC". Anyone interested in them? They > > were (I think) a buck. > > > > They also had some misc Apple II cards (about $5 each, I think), some > Atari > > 800 ROM's (or RAM? I didn't look that closely). Lemme know if there's > any > > interest. > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 28 23:32:59 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: Interesting S100 boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33b5e564.171516@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sat, 28 Jun 1997 13:09:01 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: %Just took a closer look. The 6502 Processor board doesn't have any RAM %after all, just 74xx chips. The Trace Memory Interface has 3 Intersil 6402 %chips on it. What are those? 6402 are CMOS UARTs. Ben From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sat Jun 28 19:48:28 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: What's this? In-Reply-To: References: <33b511e8.10301223@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199706290448.AAA15814@mail.cgocable.net> Hello! I have a vax related board. It takes 6 x 72pin simms, on board SCSI run by NCR 53C94, and TP ethernet connection via 15pin D-connector. It uses standard DEC keyboards for it. It has pair of 40 pin ROM chips. Plugged into this small motnerboard as a daughterboard is 1mb VRAM with sound chip and it has Bt458LPJ125 RAMDAC chip feeding to D-shell with 3 coax connectors in it (sync on green), dual "phone" jacks with one "reset" button. It has 8 yellow diagnostic LEDs. Time of year, made around '90. It has label sticker: AB15102Y6U etched into board is GS-2 32491-(sticker says: E02) I think it's a vax type board but not exactly sure what exactly model it was? Type of box that I seen with this board was "pizza box" with no removeable media just a internal hard drive, the PSU is in long box with two small fans side to side in it. (Wished I could kept one of this chassis to house this board.) :( Thinking of putting Linux on it if there is a different daughterboards for it with removeable media/video/sound or whatever! Thanks! Jason D. From danjo at xnet.com Sat Jun 28 23:55:54 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix Message-ID: WAHOO! I am in as Root! And I ain't gonna tell you what it was! Now, anyone know what the Streaming Tape Drive device is called? I can boot with this (an old Adaptec SCSI board) installed. I also have 2 CB811 cards but only one seems to come up with a light, the other one just flashes? *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. I can not boot with either or both of these installed. I haven't tried real hard, maybe the console port changes with these in. But I also don't hear all the beeps if these are in. Here's my last bootup record ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sat Jun 28 23:11:07 *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. Can't find any CB811 boards Texas Instruments print screen v1.01 SPA initialization complete Streaming cartridge tape v2.00[A] (int=3,dma=3,base=00000220) Irootdev 1/40, pipedev 1/40, swapdev 1/41 JKL0L1L2L3disk[W] drive 0: cyls = 918, heads = 15, secs = 17 nswap = 5610, swplo = 0, Hz = 50 L4maximum user process size = 8655k L5MNOPmem: total = 8064k, reserved = 4k, kernel = 1088k, user = 6 Sat Jun 28 23:11:08 972k kernel: drivers = 4k, 0 screens = 0k, 600 i/o bufs = 600k, msg bufs = 8k QRSTUVWXYZdisk[W] drive 1: cyls = 918, heads = 15, secs = 17 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have looked and can not find any docs on the CB811's or the Tape Drive 8-( 8-( 8-( Anybody know anything about either of these????? BC From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 29 07:18:09 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > WAHOO! I am in as Root! And I ain't gonna tell you what it was! No one ever doubted it could be done -- physical access to the system unit gives opportunities to crack root that the best modem connection can't offer. That's why serious business systems are kept in physically secure areas. To enter the machine room where I work I have to exchange the card-key that gives me access to the building for one that gives me access to that room -- and I have to trade back if I want to go outside to smoke a cigarette. > Now, anyone know what the Streaming Tape Drive device is called? > I can boot with this (an old Adaptec SCSI board) installed. Look in the /dev directory and see what devices are listed containing strings such mt, rmt etc. Hell, mail me a 'ls -l' of /dev and I can probably tell you -- some vendor device drivers gave things funny names. > I also have 2 CB811 cards but only one seems to come up with a light, > the other one just flashes? > *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. > (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. Computone is best known for multi-port serial boards. These are probably 8-port boards to connect to terminals. What do the connectors on these boards look like? > Sat Jun 28 23:11:07 > *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. > (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. > > Can't find any CB811 boards > Texas Instruments print screen v1.01 > SPA initialization complete Yes, 'SPA' probably stands for 'serial port adapter'. > Streaming cartridge tape v2.00[A] (int=3,dma=3,base=00000220) Is the mechanism a full-size Quarter-inch drive or one of those little Irwin/CMS type drives? Don't try putting a Soundblaster compatible sound card in that box without careful setting of jumpers. Then again, Xenix of that era probably won't support it anyway. > Irootdev 1/40, pipedev 1/40, swapdev 1/41 > JKL0L1L2L3disk[W] drive 0: cyls = 918, heads = 15, secs = 17 > nswap = 5610, swplo = 0, Hz = 50 > L4maximum user process size = 8655k > L5MNOPmem: total = 8064k, reserved = 4k, kernel = 1088k, user = 6 > Sat Jun 28 23:11:08 > 972k > kernel: drivers = 4k, 0 screens = 0k, 600 i/o bufs = 600k, msg bufs = 8k > QRSTUVWXYZdisk[W] drive 1: cyls = 918, heads = 15, secs = 17 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- All of that looks pretty normal. So what utilities are on the machine? Does it have the Software Development package? (type 'cc' to check). Does it have the Text Processing package? -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From danjo at xnet.com Sun Jun 29 08:31:59 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > > WAHOO! I am in as Root! And I ain't gonna tell you what it was! > > No one ever doubted it could be done -- physical access to the system unit > gives opportunities to crack root that the best modem connection can't > offer. That's why serious business systems are kept in physically secure > areas. You are 100% correct Ward. This is the major failing of just anybody trying to setup and run Windows NT as a business server. There's the box here's my boot disk - Where do you want to go today? 8-) > To enter the machine room where I work I have to exchange the card-key > that gives me access to the building for one that gives me access to > that room -- and I have to trade back if I want to go outside to smoke > a cigarette. That's cool! Very professional. Do they body search you before you go in and after you come out? Hmmm... Cigarettes - another thread! > > Now, anyone know what the Streaming Tape Drive device is called? > > I can boot with this (an old Adaptec SCSI board) installed. > > Look in the /dev directory and see what devices are listed containing > strings such mt, rmt etc. Hell, mail me a 'ls -l' of /dev and I can > probably tell you -- some vendor device drivers gave things funny names. Found it in a cron file. It's called rct0 (I thought I tried that before I wrote the list- oh well!) > > *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. > > (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. > > Computone is best known for multi-port serial boards. These are probably > 8-port boards to connect to terminals. What do the connectors on these > boards look like? ?62 pin D-shells? With my eyes - it hard to tell. Smallest row has 20 and three rows of pins in the *dongle*. That *Dongle* wieghs in at about 7 lbs! I have three dongles and 2 cards for 16 ports. If I had one more card - 24 9.6k baud modems - I could use up a T1 8-) > > SPA initialization complete > > Yes, 'SPA' probably stands for 'serial port adapter'. Aside - What the heck is that shorty card in there? All epoxied up. Says TI on it. Metal shield. Any ideas? > > Streaming cartridge tape v2.00[A] (int=3,dma=3,base=00000220) > > Is the mechanism a full-size Quarter-inch drive or one of those little > Irwin/CMS type drives? Don't recognize anything on it that has a name I know. Full 1/4 inch on a DC600 tape (I now have one blank 8-) Yup - got the tape to work! > Don't try putting a Soundblaster compatible sound card in that box > without careful setting of jumpers. Then again, Xenix of that era > probably won't support it anyway. You know I keep hearing about these *SoundBlaster* thingies. What the heck are they anyway 8-) > All of that looks pretty normal. Hey if it comes up at all - that's pretty *ab*normal - least around me! > So what utilities are on the machine? Does it have the Software > Development package? (type 'cc' to check). Does it have the Text > Processing package? Give me some time! I don't think it has much of anything on it. I just made a list of files and will go thru them today. I could use some file names (as grep is easy to use 8-) BC From chemif at mbox.queen.it Sun Jun 29 08:35:46 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix Message-ID: <199706291335.PAA10714@mbox.queen.it> At 23:55 28/06/97 -0500, you wrote: > >WAHOO! I am in as Root! And I ain't gonna tell you what it was! > >Now, anyone know what the Streaming Tape Drive device is called? >I can boot with this (an old Adaptec SCSI board) installed. I have the TI 1300, and the device was called /dev/rct0 you should have the "help" command available, try also with ? and the topic. >I also have 2 CB811 cards but only one seems to come up with a light, >the other one just flashes? > *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. > (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. > >I can not boot with either or both of these installed. I haven't tried >real hard, maybe the console port changes with these in. But I also don't >hear all the beeps if these are in. I guess you are using built-in vga card and keyboard connected directly in the machine, instead of using "tty0a" port of the CB811 with a vt 100 as console. This, usually, make the difference. >Here's my last bootup record >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Sat Jun 28 23:11:07 > *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. > (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. > >Can't find any CB811 boards >Texas Instruments print screen v1.01 >SPA initialization complete >Streaming cartridge tape v2.00[A] (int=3,dma=3,base=00000220) >Irootdev 1/40, pipedev 1/40, swapdev 1/41 >JKL0L1L2L3disk[W] drive 0: cyls = 918, heads = 15, secs = 17 >nswap = 5610, swplo = 0, Hz = 50 >L4maximum user process size = 8655k >L5MNOPmem: total = 8064k, reserved = 4k, kernel = 1088k, user = 6 >Sat Jun 28 23:11:08 >972k >kernel: drivers = 4k, 0 screens = 0k, 600 i/o bufs = 600k, msg bufs = 8k >QRSTUVWXYZdisk[W] drive 1: cyls = 918, heads = 15, secs = 17 >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >I have looked and can not find any docs on the CB811's or the Tape Drive >8-( 8-( 8-( > >Anybody know anything about either of these????? I will try to ask my old TEXAS suppliers and let you know Riccardo ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html From kyrrin at wizards.net Sun Jun 29 09:37:41 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: PROMS Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970629073741.00f828b0@mail.wizards.net> Tim Shoppa wrote... Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 06:26:54 -0800 (PDT) From: Tim Shoppa To: classiccmp@u.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: Archiving & other news Message-ID: <9706281326.AA21254@alph02.triumf.ca> Content-Type: text >Does this include 1702A's and 2704's? Checking my wall chart, it doesn't look like it right away. However, I will check with Data I/O's web site (they have an online device support lookup). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at wizards.net Sun Jun 29 09:53:40 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970629075340.00f84520@mail.wizards.net> I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as any machine that you can: * Comfortably fit through your door... * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your home! Which just goes to show that such terminology is so relative, there's little point in debating it. Why waste the bandwidth over something as trivial as a difference in wording? (No, I'm not trying to start a flamewar; I posted this because I'm concerned that the current thread regarding 'home' computers may erupt into one!) Caveat Emperor! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 29 10:38:32 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199706291538.AA05495@world.std.com> > For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in > general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as > any machine that you can: > > * Comfortably fit through your door... > * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... > * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... > * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your > home Great loved it! What I'd pointed out before is many of the PDP-11s were in the same space and competing for the same percieved market as the PC. While some -11s were large like the 11/70 with RP06/7 disks and wanting a cooled computer room. most were at must one rack and a disk systems that were more modest in size. The systems I refered to as desktop were: LSI-11/03 (floppy based in short rack 28" tall) PDP-11/23+ (in 40" tall rack with RL02 removeable disk and floppy) PDT-11/130 (slow tape but it was only vt100 sized!) PDT-11/150 (Late 70s early 80s) not large at all. (also called breadbox) PRO350 and later 380 Microvax I/II (ba23 pedestal) VS2000 (box slightly larger than DECMATEIII) VS3100 (aka pizza box) These happen to be DEC systems but IBM, HP, DG were all out there too with desktop sized or desk side minies in disgusise. All very collectable and also useable! Allison From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sun Jun 29 06:49:45 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: Error Condition Re: Re: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <199706291543.LAA21758@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199706291549.LAA22180@mail.cgocable.net> Subject: Home computer: Definition My opinions and to disgress; "Home Computer" term is invented by corporations to supposely help define their markets and totally miss it all the time because users needs is usually higher than their corporates' computers by factor of 1.5 to 2. At same time tries to pull off a coup on "home" users by selling stripped down with loads of cut corners and oft-nonstandard parts machine at horrible prices. Case in point: PCjr. PCjr and orignal 2 piece PS/1 (sold at 1000 bux cdn but you get no HD in it, introduced 1990's but users right away dumped them by pallets barely 2 years after. Yuk!) Side note: I traded few things to get this PS/1 2011 and used it for a while but sold it cheaply to a user who have modest needs than I. (for me, I can't manage well without hard drive attached even all the down to XT but not for apple II's their floppy drive is very fast enough to forgo hd, very impressed but at that time too expensive for my taste but now they are so cheap now.) So there was a bad taste to this name "home computers" in general. Similar types of computers did well in many areas but happened to lack important areas that killed it. Ironically, better to build DIY similar capablies 386, 80mb, 1mb, desktop/mono vga and still easily interchangable than that darned PS/1 2011 models. When I read about many machines and few "home computers" as called toys but I was mistaken when I saw and heard that "toy", boy, they're mistaken and I was taken too for a while! Indeed they were used for anything within their capablies so I accept anything that has CPU in it at same time useful and expandable should be decent computers, no more or less. :) C64, PET's, apples and such has just right stuff to keep users happy. In closing, corporations always underestimate "home" users. But now they are not pushing this word and crippled machines anymore, now selling them in general to any users execpt for corporations who needs turnkey system just to do very specific jobs like weak machine strictly for WP use, alphas for servers and heavy graphics, fast processor for programming but that is getting blurred that most users can afford them and can put them in their homes. Ok, now I could respond to yours... :) > I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms > indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. Suppose, Digital did not cared a whit and cut prices on that and we would be sure many would have one in home if they're small enough and easy on power requirements. Linux is there now and NT can be run on alphas but bit late and cost is fast appoaching to affordable levels where getting a pentium pro machine is not only option. > > For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in > general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as > any machine that you can: > > * Comfortably fit through your door... > > * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... > > * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... > > * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your home! > > Which just goes to show that such terminology is so relative, there's > little point in debating it. Why waste the bandwidth over something as > trivial as a difference in wording? > > (No, I'm not trying to start a flamewar; I posted this because I'm > concerned that the current thread regarding 'home' computers may erupt into > one!) > > Caveat Emperor! From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sun Jun 29 11:32:46 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970629075340.00f84520@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Bruce Lane wrote: > I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms > indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. My PDP is a home computer. All it takes up is a table (I don't have a rack yet. It's coming...) Besides, my XT is bigger than the PDP at the moment (condidering keyboard, monitor, printer, and disks) Anything I can fit inside is a home computer! If it's in a home, and it's a computer, it's a home computer, right? From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 29 13:16:33 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition References: Message-ID: <33B6A681.66DE@ndirect.co.uk> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Bruce Lane wrote: > > > I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms > > indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. > > My PDP is a home computer. All it takes up is a table (I don't have a > rack yet. It's coming...) Besides, my XT is bigger than the PDP at the > moment (condidering keyboard, monitor, printer, and disks) > > Anything I can fit inside is a home computer! If it's in a home, and > it's a computer, it's a home computer, right? Of course you could go to work on a Ferrari BUT would you? (and is a Ferrari a "goto work car"?) enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 29 13:34:39 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <33B6A681.66DE@ndirect.co.uk> from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 29, 97 06:16:33 pm Message-ID: <9706291734.AA10600@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1488 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970629/3a13ea33/attachment.ksh From danjo at xnet.com Sun Jun 29 12:44:11 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <33B6A681.66DE@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Bruce Lane wrote: > > > I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms > > > indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" > > > computers. > > > > > > * Comfortably fit through your door... > > > * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... > > > * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... > > > * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your > > > home > > > > My PDP is a home computer. All it takes up is a table (I don't have a > > rack yet. It's coming...) Besides, my XT is bigger than the PDP at the > > moment (condidering keyboard, monitor, printer, and disks) > > > > Anything I can fit inside is a home computer! If it's in a home, and > > it's a computer, it's a home computer, right? I agree! I have even thought of putting in a bigger door 8-) > Of course you could go to work on a Ferrari BUT would you? (and is a > Ferrari a "goto work car"?) Why - yes I would. I tend to do things like that tho. Not everyone would. But if I spend > $1 on a car - I use it. What is a car for? What is a computer for? Do you think Ferrari builds cars to sit? Why do they put an engine in one then? Now art - like a painting - thats made to hang on a wall and get looked at. I do have a picture of a Ferrari - got that for free. Why would I would I speend > $100K for something to look at. BC From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 29 12:43:28 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > > WAHOO! I am in as Root! And I ain't gonna tell you what it was! That's not very friendly. > Now, anyone know what the Streaming Tape Drive device is called? > I can boot with this (an old Adaptec SCSI board) installed. I know, but I ain't gonna tell you what it is! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 29 12:50:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970629075340.00f84520@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Bruce Lane wrote: > For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in > general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as > any machine that you can: > > * Comfortably fit through your door... > > * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... > > * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... > > * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your home! > I love this definition! I think it should go in the FAQ. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Jun 29 13:54:36 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: Plus/4 Cartridges References: <199706290702.AAA01484@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33B6AF6C.3DCA@goldrush.com> RE From: Jeff Hellige Subject: C= 16 & Plus/4 cartridges > For the first time since I actively started collecting old systems and > the software and peripherals, I finally came across some program > cartridges for the C-16 & Plus/4 today. They came from a guy who does a >flea market each weekend and who keeps an eye out for 8bit stuff, and he >picked them up with me in mind. They are 'Strange Odyssey' and 'Jack >Attack'. Anyway, my question is, since these are the only ones I've >ever run across, other than the cartridge that shipped with the C-16, >were there many made for these machines? > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com Sounds like two from a set an electronics secods outlet was selling... The set had 8 carts, Jack Attack, Strange Oddesy, Plus Calc, Plus Script (plus/4 verions of easycalc and easyscript), and some others I can't remember or locate, total of 8 carts. I think that might have been the bulk of the U.S. release for the Plus/4. Of course in europe the Plus/4 went many years of popularity with many companies supplying games (just check the net you will find lots if information, though many of the games are PAL mode, *sigh*) Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Jun 29 14:02:44 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... References: <199706290702.AAA01484@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33B6B153.4E0A@goldrush.com> > Also have these: > > the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1 > California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square > and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] > > Any idea what this stuff is? > > > Sam I was reading in the Atari Game Systems FAQ that the 7800 carts are encrypted with a special encryption and only those encrypted games get access to the 7800's advanced video resources (otherwise it just gets 2600 resources)... This was a measure by Atari to make sure to get a share of the profits from 3rd party game developers. There could be a slight possibility this is an encryption unit for the 7800 game system... Currently no one knows (or is saying they know) how to encrypt 7800 carts. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 29 14:05:40 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199706291905.AA00715@world.std.com> > Of course you could go to work on a Ferrari BUT would you? (and is a > Ferrari a "goto work car"?) If work is a race car driver, it might be. ;-) Assuming it's not outclassed. Allison From spc at armigeron.com Sun Jun 29 15:15:34 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <33B6A681.66DE@ndirect.co.uk> from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 29, 97 06:16:33 pm Message-ID: <199706292015.QAA06732@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great e.tedeschi once stated: > Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > > Anything I can fit inside is a home computer! If it's in a home, and > > it's a computer, it's a home computer, right? > > > Of course you could go to work on a Ferrari BUT would you? (and is a > Ferrari a "goto work car"?) Heck, if I had a Ferrari, I might not even GO to work. I'd be having too much fun driving the thing. What's the point of a Ferrari if you only get to drive it for an hour or so a day? Why have it if it's not going to be used? Which relates to how I collect computers - I only collect computers that I can actually put to good use. I feel bad if a computer is just sitting there collecting dust. -spc (Woo hoo! I'm drivin g a Ferrari, and I even rate my own police escourt! 8-) From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 29 16:42:02 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: bibliography Message-ID: <33B6D6AA.32A6@ndirect.co.uk> - "Fumbling the Future" by Douglas Smith and Robert Alexander - "Halcion Days" By??? I would like to add these two titles to my HOME COMPUTER BIBLIOGRAPHY. Does anybody have the name of the publishers and the year of publishing? Thank you enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 29 16:47:07 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition References: <199706291905.AA00715@world.std.com> Message-ID: <33B6D7DB.52AB@ndirect.co.uk> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > Of course you could go to work on a Ferrari BUT would you? (and is a > > Ferrari a "goto work car"?) > > If work is a race car driver, it might be. ;-) Assuming it's not > outclassed. > > Allison but he is not, so why use a Ferrari to go to work. He can still own a Ferrary but keep it in the garage and use it on Sundays... enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 29 16:59:30 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition References: <199706292015.QAA06732@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <33B6DAC2.6A6D@ndirect.co.uk> Captain Napalm wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great e.tedeschi once stated: > > Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > > > > Anything I can fit inside is a home computer! If it's in a home, and > > > it's a computer, it's a home computer, right? > > > > > > Of course you could go to work on a Ferrari BUT would you? (and is a > > Ferrari a "goto work car"?) > > Heck, if I had a Ferrari, I might not even GO to work. I'd be having too > much fun driving the thing. You might HAVE to go to work to mantain the beast.... What's the point of a Ferrari if you only get > to drive it for an hour or so a day? Why have it if it's not going to be > used? For the historical importance or for collection... > > Which relates to how I collect computers - I only collect computers that I > can actually put to good use. I feel bad if a computer is just sitting > there collecting dust. There are computers that you could not possibly USE but they are important for what they meant (and mean today) in short for their "heritage". Without them you could not have used (and use) the ones you are using today. enrico > > -spc (Woo hoo! I'm drivin g a Ferrari, and I even rate my own police > escourt! 8-) From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jun 29 15:18:10 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: DOS 2.11 software (fwd) Message-ID: <199706292102.OAA19143@mx4.u.washington.edu> I can help...I have lotsa "old" games (MDA/MGA/CGA) -- mostly shareware. Please tell him to contact me. ---------- > From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > To: Manney > Subject: DOS 2.11 software (fwd) > Date: Saturday, June 28, 1997 1:59 PM > > > > OK guys, here is a request I got, maybe someone can help this poor guy! > Thanks, > > Les > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 08:26:19 -0400 (EDT) > From: KenpoKidJB@aol.com > To: more@camlaw.Rutgers.EDU > Subject: software > > hey, i went to your web site, but didn't find what i wanted. i'm looking for > dos 2.11 programs that will run off of a 3.5" floppy. most specifically, i'm > especially looking for games. any kind will do, but even more specifically, > i'm looking for text driven adventure games, as my kaypro 2000 LCD screen > doesn't do very well with graphics!! so, let me know what you can do for > me.. i really appreciate it. > Jeremiah > From william at ans.net Sun Jun 29 16:17:01 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: ROM Archive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706292117.AA05368@interlock.ans.net> > 1. Record format: open (depending on software for EPROM programmer); > S-records, Intel Hex, binary. I suppose just about anything is good, as there are plenty of utilities to convert the different formats. > 2. Submission & storage: UUEncoded image file e-mailed to "repository"; > ROM/EPROM chips sent by snail mail and returned. All submissions should have > as much info about the source computer as possible (board revisions, date of > mnaufacture, etc.) I think that anything doing with the chips (purchasing, programming, shipping) should be left to the person that needs them. Sure, not very many people on the list have programmers, but there are enough kind souls that would do the programming. Anyway, having a policy concerning shipping and supply may turn into a big headache. > 3. Requests & withdrawls: by e-mail to those with programmers; by mail for > those supplying their own chips; e-mail request with no chip sent. See above. > 4. Cost: nominal (cost of postage and EPROM). Doing any more may actually be legally shakey. Additional thought... How will additional required information be tied to the ROM images (as in manufacturers part numbers, revision levels, serial numbers, corresponding hardware information, etc.)? ROMS (and PALs) often change as the circuits get minor "improvements" (ECOs). William Donzelli william@ans.net From starling at umr.edu Sun Jun 29 16:23:59 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... In-Reply-To: <33B6B153.4E0A@goldrush.com> from "Larry Anderson & Diane Hare" at Jun 29, 97 11:02:44 am Message-ID: <199706292123.QAA12003@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > Currently no one knows (or is saying they know) how to encrypt 7800 > carts. > Actually, I seem to recall that a guy in rec.games.video.classic has figured it out, but there hasn't been any practical application of it yet. But I haven't read r.g.v.c in a LONG time, so things may have changed... I wish I could remember his name... he was one of the big cheese techie types in the newsgroup that was always hacking up weird stuff, so I don't doubt that he did it. From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 29 16:43:11 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > You are 100% correct Ward. This is the major failing of just anybody > trying to setup and run Windows NT as a business server. There's the box > here's my boot disk - Where do you want to go today? 8-) For the company Notes system, the NT Servers are in the same room. It's an insurance company -- they've gotten into the security habit strongly since they installed about the third production Univac I that was ever made back about the time I was born. > > To enter the machine room where I work I have to exchange the card-key > > that gives me access to the building for one that gives me access to > > that room -- and I have to trade back if I want to go outside to smoke > > a cigarette. > > That's cool! Very professional. Do they body search you before you go in > and after you come out? Hmmm... Cigarettes - another thread! Well, I find much of the discussion about getting the yellowing from tar and nicotine off of the cases to be rather irrelevant -- for almost of twenty years, my nocturnal hacking has been with an overflowing ashtray on one side of the keyboard and a twelve-pack of something above 3.2% on the other. Yes, I Windex the screens -- the yellowing of off-white cases I find relaxing. (I live in New Jersey, but I'm from Los Angeles -- that means that while the groundwater is fine, due to the lack of an inversion layer the air is lacking in essential vitamins -- two generations in L.A. and evolution worked. I _need_ the supplementary carbon monoxide, and jogging behind busses is too much like exercise.) > Found it in a cron file. It's called rct0 (I thought I tried that before > I wrote the list- oh well!) Yeah, I recall the device name. It was unique to QIC drives under Xenix, as far as I can recall -- though there might have been carryover into SCO Unix -- I've never set up a SCO Unix system with one. > > Computone is best known for multi-port serial boards. These are probably > > 8-port boards to connect to terminals. What do the connectors on these > > boards look like? > > ?62 pin D-shells? With my eyes - it hard to tell. Smallest row has 20 and > three rows of pins in the *dongle*. That *Dongle* wieghs in at about 7 > lbs! I have three dongles and 2 cards for 16 ports. If I had one more > card - 24 9.6k baud modems - I could use up a T1 8-) That's the connector to connect an eight-port box to the board -- _all_ of the signals for all eight serial ports are present on that connector -- figuring which pin is which line on which port is the next best thing to do without a schematic or the box to dissect. > > > SPA initialization complete > > Yes, 'SPA' probably stands for 'serial port adapter'. > Aside - What the heck is that shorty card in there? All epoxied up. > Says TI on it. Metal shield. Any ideas? Damfino -- never did a TI Xenix system. Did Xenix on Tandy, Altos, and with SCO a shitload of 386 platforms, but not TI. > Don't recognize anything on it that has a name I know. Full 1/4 inch > on a DC600 tape (I now have one blank 8-) Yup - got the tape to work! Cool. Those mini-QIC drives have never given me _anything_ but grief. From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jun 29 16:24:47 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199706292129.OAA02527@mx3.u.washington.edu> Is VAXen the plural of VAX ? Why? From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 29 16:54:00 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970629075340.00f84520@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Bruce Lane wrote: > For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in > general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as > any machine that you can: > > * Comfortably fit through your door... Fine there. But in this old Victorian, the tight stairs to the attic and the basement can be a _bitch_, especially when moving from on to tother. > * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... Well, that's why the bigger boxes are in the basement. > * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... Does bribing the town electrical inspector count? (This _is_ New Jersey). > * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your home! The key factor. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 29 17:27:53 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <199706292129.OAA02527@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, PG Manney wrote: > Is VAXen the plural of VAX ? Why? Play on words. Like the plural of 'Ox' is 'Oxen', plurals of many things involving computers that end in 'x' end in 'xen'. As VAXen, Unixen (for the many variations on the Unix OS such as Venix, Linux, BSD, Solaris, AIX, Xenix, and several others. You'll also see more than one box (as in CPU) referred to as 'boxen'. Check out _The New Hacker's Dictionary_, 2nd Edition, from MIT Press, also available in many forms on the Net as the "Jargon File". Currently (and for a long time now) maintained by Eric S. Raymond. Try . (Actually, recommended to everybody who ever wonders what one of us old farts is talking about). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From danjo at xnet.com Sun Jun 29 17:29:55 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <33B6DAC2.6A6D@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > For the historical importance or for collection... I understand this. But wouldn't a picture and the operators/maintenance manuals be enought then? Maybe some film or video? BOING! How about a film library of old computer stuff? You know - file footage that all the old SF movies used to use. > There are computers that you could not possibly USE but they are > important for what they meant (and mean today) in short for their > "heritage". Without them you could not have used (and use) the ones you > are using today. Name some. I mean the ones I *could not possibly USE* - I would like a list of things to look for 8-) I remember someone saying in one post about MCMXXX and the response being *must have meant MCMLXXX* - why? Triode tubes (valves - I love that word) were around - Why couldn't you build a computer using tubes from the 30's. I mean - it would keep the house warm (probably too warm 8-) and it would be some what limited in storage - but heck weren't some of the first tubers (like that word too) big word machines. Wierd things like 12 and 23 and 31 bit come to mind. Wasn't there a huge 64 bit TTL one as well? This was back in the late 50's. Government funded stuff. Or am I just blowing wind? BC From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 29 17:57:11 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > I remember someone saying in one post about MCMXXX and the response being > *must have meant MCMLXXX* - why? Triode tubes (valves - I love that word) > were around - Why couldn't you build a computer using tubes from the 30's. > I mean - it would keep the house warm (probably too warm 8-) and it would > be some what limited in storage - but heck weren't some of the first > tubers (like that word too) big word machines. Wierd things like 12 and 23 > and 31 bit come to mind. Wasn't there a huge 64 bit TTL one as well? This > was back in the late 50's. Government funded stuff. Or am I just blowing > wind? That was me. Yes, it might have been _possible_ to build a machine in 1930, but at that time nobody had made the connection between Babbage's ideas and electronics. IIRC, it was John von Neuman who took that fatal step, then published it. And then all Hell broke loose, and there is no sign of the rift closing within our lifetimes. I _love_ it. With respect to the old Chinese curse, we live in interesting times. And we have done so since the Harvard Mark I. (Well, there _is_ that rumoured German predecessor, but it was never advertised.) -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From danjo at xnet.com Sun Jun 29 18:02:29 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > For the company Notes system, the NT Servers are in the same room. It's > an insurance company -- they've gotten into the security habit strongly > since they installed about the third production Univac I that was ever > made back about the time I was born. The people that you could REALLY hurt if you broke security! [Section moved to end 8-)] > > > > SPA initialization complete > > > Yes, 'SPA' probably stands for 'serial port adapter'. > > Aside - What the heck is that shorty card in there? All epoxied up. > > Says TI on it. Metal shield. Any ideas? > > Damfino -- never did a TI Xenix system. Did Xenix on Tandy, Altos, and > with SCO a shitload of 386 platforms, but not TI. This is the SPA card. It has 3 20 pin chips and 1 24 pin chip in it (from looking at the back). It has LAB1 as a part name and on the slot cover it says "SPA ID NUMBER : 3531". On the drive is an installation script to change SPA passwords. Three entries : # cat /etc/softpwd DFMX_1.0:052B46346E1F471943210A3344174B3D3D064C01: TISAM2.4:024427482D315F1A3F2D572F6C006D1A21230B6B: COBRT2.0:0B7125683B101E6B360D204A7B0717571C3F6F59: Looks like some protection thingy for Cobol and a Database thing. > > Don't recognize anything on it that has a name I know. Full 1/4 inch > > on a DC600 tape (I now have one blank 8-) Yup - got the tape to work! > > Cool. Those mini-QIC drives have never given me _anything_ but grief. > From the age, that drive is probable 60 MB, but could be as much as 150. No problems - so far 8-) > Well, Xenix is pretty rugged, even on an Intel box. Definitely! > > > So what utilities are on the machine? Does it have the Software > > > Development package? (type 'cc' to check). Does it have the Text > > > Processing package? No cc 8-( Maybe time to turn it into a Linux Box. > For text processing, look for 'troff' in a bin directory. Of course, an > 'ls /usr/games' will tell you whether or not the machine is worth keeping > for the long run. Especially if you've got 'rogue' or 'hack' (and if you > don't, I suspect they can be tracked down). No troff either &-( And no games! What the heck! > > > To enter the machine room where I work I have to exchange the card-key > > > that gives me access to the building for one that gives me access to > > > that room -- and I have to trade back if I want to go outside to smoke > > > a cigarette. > > That's cool! Very professional. Do they body search you before you go in > > and after you come out? Hmmm... Cigarettes - another thread! > Well, I find much of the discussion about getting the yellowing from tar > and nicotine off of the cases to be rather irrelevant -- for almost of > twenty years, my nocturnal hacking has been with an overflowing ashtray on > one side of the keyboard and a twelve-pack of something above 3.2% on the > other. Well, I also crank up Led Zeppelin and go for something in the 18 proof range 8-) Sometimes I mellow out with Readers Digest "Big Band Era" - but I'm strange. (Man can Christopher Columbus bang those drums!) > Yes, I Windex the screens -- the yellowing of off-white cases I find > relaxing. (I live in New Jersey, but I'm from Los Angeles -- that means > that while the groundwater is fine, due to the lack of an inversion > layer the air is lacking in essential vitamins -- two generations in > L.A. and evolution worked. I _need_ the supplementary carbon monoxide, > and jogging behind busses is too much like exercise.) Not EXACTLY what I meant 8-) I was wondering - with all the secoandhand smoke info flowing around - if you ever had a "hardware" failure directly tied to cigarettes? I had one. The damn thing rolled off the ashtray onto a 5 1/4 disk. Melted it before I could get to it. That's why I make backups! But I use to teach computers in - oh 82-85. We used 8 inch drives and thru a *design* flaw the fans sucked instead of blew. Used to flip my ashes right in there. Used to throw the floppy up and then jump on it. In all those years, I lost one disk. Had my boots reheeled after that 8-) But smoking and computers are A BIG NO!NO! I can see a problem with maybe CD-ROMS and floppies - tar gumming up the works - but I have never had a failure that wouldn't have been as bad if it was Kool-Aid or something. I think sugar based stuff is the worst for computers. Conductive and fluid! Ouch! BC From danjo at xnet.com Sun Jun 29 18:10:33 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > > I remember someone saying in one post about MCMXXX and the response being > > *must have meant MCMLXXX* - why? Triode tubes (valves - I love that word) > > were around - Why couldn't you build a computer using tubes from the 30's. > > That was me. Yes, it might have been _possible_ to build a machine in > 1930, but at that time nobody had made the connection between Babbage's > ideas and electronics. IIRC, it was John von Neuman who took that fatal > step, then published it. And then all Hell broke loose, and there is no > sign of the rift closing within our lifetimes. I _love_ it. With > respect to the old Chinese curse, we live in interesting times. And we > have done so since the Harvard Mark I. (Well, there _is_ that rumoured > German predecessor, but it was never advertised.) Which reminds me, my oldest handheld is from Korea. It feels great on my feet! My uncle picked it up for me in the mid-60's tho the design has been around in Asia for centuries. BC From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 29 18:06:07 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... In-Reply-To: <33B6B153.4E0A@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > > the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1 > > California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square > > and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] NOTE: The description above is of two, separate cards. > I was reading in the Atari Game Systems FAQ that the 7800 carts are > encrypted with a special encryption and only those encrypted games get > access to the 7800's advanced video resources (otherwise it just gets > 2600 resources)... This was a measure by Atari to make sure to get a > share of the profits from 3rd party game developers. There could be a > slight possibility this is an encryption unit for the 7800 game > system... Hmmm. Interesting hypothesis. However, these boards are circa 1983, while the 7800 is circa 1986 or something. I'll go repost a request for info on the atari newsgroups. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Jun 29 18:24:35 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <970629192434_1012898288@emout11.mail.aol.com> actually, ive heard the plural for unix to be unices, rather than unixen, or also expressed as *nix, for the different flavours of unix out there. the hacker's dictionary is great though, just to read the words and their origins. i've now got everyone at work to use the term "virtual friday" which i picked out of the dictionary! =D << > Is VAXen the plural of VAX ? Why? Play on words. Like the plural of 'Ox' is 'Oxen', plurals of many things involving computers that end in 'x' end in 'xen'. As VAXen, Unixen (for the many variations on the Unix OS such as Venix, Linux, BSD, Solaris, AIX, Xenix, and several others. You'll also see more than one box (as in CPU) referred to as 'boxen'. Check out _The New Hacker's Dictionary_, 2nd Edition, from MIT Press, also available in many forms on the Net as the "Jargon File". Currently (and for a long time now) maintained by Eric S. Raymond. Try . (Actually, recommended to everybody who ever wonders what one of us old farts is talking about). -- Ward Griffiths >> david From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 29 18:14:24 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... In-Reply-To: <33B6B153.4E0A@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > > Also have these: > > > > the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1 > > > > California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square > > and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] > > I was reading in the Atari Game Systems FAQ that the 7800 carts are > encrypted with a special encryption and only those encrypted games get > access to the 7800's advanced video resources (otherwise it just gets > 2600 resources)... This was a measure by Atari to make sure to get a > share of the profits from 3rd party game developers. There could be a > slight possibility this is an encryption unit for the 7800 game > system... Also, I would think Atari would make their own encryption hardware rather than using a (somewhat) commonly available encryption board. Who knows, I guess I'll just have to crack this interesting mystery. BTW I uncovered another Trace Memory Interface Card hiding underneath some front covers in another box, so that makes two of those. This card has the two 6402 chips on it. I looked closer and it also has baud rate DIP switches for setting the baud rate up to 38,400bps for each serial port. Looks like this thing dumped debug information, probably about the 6502 Processor card, onto a terminal. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 29 18:34:59 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: bibliography In-Reply-To: <33B6D6AA.32A6@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > - "Halcion Days" By??? > > Does anybody have the name of the publishers and the year of publishing? Oops, almost forgot, the publisher of _Halcyon Days_ is Dadgum Games. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 29 18:37:42 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: ROM Archive In-Reply-To: <199706292117.AA05368@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > Additional thought... > > How will additional required information be tied to the ROM images (as in > manufacturers part numbers, revision levels, serial numbers, > corresponding hardware information, etc.)? ROMS (and PALs) often change > as the circuits get minor "improvements" (ECOs). I guess a data sheet will have to be kept for each ROM. And if a certain revision is found not to work on a certain other revision then it will be noted in the data sheet. It will all be figured out over time. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 29 18:33:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: bibliography In-Reply-To: <33B6D6AA.32A6@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > - "Fumbling the Future" by Douglas Smith and Robert Alexander > - "Halcion Days" By??? _Halcyon Days_ by James Hague, March 1997 (HTML on floppy) Also, add these to your list if they are not already on it: _The Naked Computer_ "A Layperson's Almanac of Computer Lore, Wizardry, Personalities, Memorabilia, World Records, Mindblowers, and Tomfoolery" by Jack B. Rochester and John Gantz, William Morrow & Company, 1983, ISBN: 0-688-02450-5 [an excellent book of tidbits] _The Micro Millenium_ by Christopher Evans, Viking Press, 1979, ISBN: 0-670-47400-2 [basically a backward and forward looking book on the computer age, just started reading it] _The Untold Story of the Computer Revolution: Bits, Bytes, Bauds & Brains_ by G. Harry Stine, Arbor House Publishing Co., 1985, ISBN: 0-87795-574-3 [historical text which starts with Babbage and works its way up to 1985, read it 10 years ago but I'm sure I enjoyed it] Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 29 18:41:23 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <199706292129.OAA02527@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, PG Manney wrote: > Is VAXen the plural of VAX ? Why? Yes, just like "oxen" is the plural of "ox". Ahhhh, the odd exceptions of the English language. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From rcini at msn.com Sun Jun 29 20:15:55 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:12 2005 Subject: Weekend Additions Message-ID: David: You can still get Tandy/RS software directly from their National Parts service. Last year when I acquired a Model 100 system, I needed the DVI (disk-video interface) diskette, I called them. The price: $5 each. I can't seem to find the telephone number (it is an 800#, though), but it's called "Tandy Consumer Mail Center". You should be able to get the number from your local R/S. Give them the catalog# and what you're looking for. They will probably refer you to the Tandy Software Service Center, where you can order the diskette. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking ======================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:13:11 -0400 (EDT) From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: weekend additions Message-ID: <970628101309_408583751@emout07.mail.aol.com> i need some help on what i found this weekend. a trs80 model III 48k. came with trsdos disk, but i havent tested it yet. can anyone point to a source of software. now i need a model ][ to fill in the blanks! From broswell at syssrc.com Sun Jun 29 21:13:38 1997 From: broswell at syssrc.com (Bob Roswell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Historical Research In-Reply-To: <101CFB4E013D0400@c2inet.syssrc.com> Message-ID: <641DFB4E013D0400@c2inet.syssrc.com> Kevin, did you ever get that draft I emailed you? What is going on with you book? Bob Roswell System Source 338 Clubhouse Road Hunt Valley, MD 21031 (410) 771-5544 ext 336 broswell@syssrc.com www.syssrc.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 29 21:58:02 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199706300258.AA11612@world.std.com> > Is VAXen the plural of VAX ? Why? hobson's choice, it just is. For some reason VAXes never caught in some circles especally when you dealing with SMP and clusters of vaxen. There are many stories why, most I've forgotten though as a millrat I should be up on it. Actually there are some good stories about node names on the DIGIAL network. My favorites were MILRAT, and the other two cluster members MILROT and MILDEW. They were apt names for vaxen located where straight down through the floor meant you were in the pond. Allison From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 29 22:27:38 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > Not EXACTLY what I meant 8-) I was wondering - with all the secoandhand > smoke info flowing around - if you ever had a "hardware" failure directly > tied to cigarettes? I had one. The damn thing rolled off the ashtray onto Well, I _do_ insert a cleaning diskette into each drive every year whether it's given me any grief or not. Of course, I've been using the same 5.25 cleaning disk since 1979 and the 3.5 since 1986. I suppose I should at _least_ buy a new bottle of the stuff I'm supposed to dribble onto the cleaning disks. > a 5 1/4 disk. Melted it before I could get to it. That's why I make > backups! But I use to teach computers in - oh 82-85. We used 8 inch drives > and thru a *design* flaw the fans sucked instead of blew. Used to flip my The _only_ diskettes I've ever damaged directly with cigarettes have been intentionally. A floppy gives me grief, I quadruple the diameter of the sector detect hole as a warning to others. Oh, and I do that to any and all unsolicited (which means all) AOL disks I encounter. Since the new 3.5 inch AOL disks don't have easily expandable sector detects, I just start the tip of the cigarette through the "O" in "AOL". And the occasional AOL CD goes in the microwave to make pretty lights. > ashes right in there. Used to throw the floppy up and then jump on it. > In all those years, I lost one disk. Had my boots reheeled after that 8-) > But smoking and computers are A BIG NO!NO! I can see a problem with maybe > CD-ROMS and floppies - tar gumming up the works - but I have never had a > failure that wouldn't have been as bad if it was Kool-Aid or something. > I think sugar based stuff is the worst for computers. Conductive and > fluid! Ouch! Had a cat knock a 16oz. can of Midnight Dragon Ale into a keyboard once. Just a PC keyboard, so nothing crucial -- I gave the keyboard to an idiot to clean and make his own and spent $20 on a better keyboard. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 29 22:30:52 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > Which reminds me, my oldest handheld is from Korea. It feels great on my > feet! My uncle picked it up for me in the mid-60's tho the design has been > around in Asia for centuries. Yeah, got three assorted items of that nature myself (abacuses? abaci? Never met anybody with more than one to tell me the proper plural!) -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 29 22:45:49 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <970629192434_1012898288@emout11.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > actually, ive heard the plural for unix to be unices, rather than unixen, or > also expressed as *nix, for the different flavours of unix out there. the > hacker's dictionary is great though, just to read the words and their > origins. i've now got everyone at work to use the term "virtual friday" which > i picked out of the dictionary! =D Revisionist. The rendering of the plural of "Unix" to "Unices" is an attempt to make the word fit old Latin grammar, as in "aviatrix" to "aviatrices". It only works with feminine nouns, that being what the "ix" ending meant in old Latin. Unix is an American English word, so the "en" is appropriate. "*nix" is simply a word to try genericizing the many forms of Unixen to a singular form which offends nobody. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From william at ans.net Sun Jun 29 22:50:18 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706300350.AA14365@interlock.ans.net> > I remember someone saying in one post about MCMXXX and the response being > *must have meant MCMLXXX* - why? Triode tubes (valves - I love that word) > were around - Why couldn't you build a computer using tubes from the 30's. Simply put, most (nearly 99.9%) toobs really do not like to work in a digital fashion. They get "sleeping sickness" - when cut-off for a period of time, electrons bunch up around the cathode (they are always emitted, but can not get past the grid). This electron cloud, unfortuneately, takes time to break apart after the grid bias turns the device on - resulting in a horrible response time for any gate. I suppose one could make ECL with vacuum techonology - keeping the digital states between cut-off and saturation, but the price of extra parts would be very large. Only in the 1950s did manufacturers start to make toobs that behaved in digital circuits. William Donzelli william@ans.net From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Sun Jun 29 22:54:45 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <01IKNRSZCLR8A4MUM3@cc.usu.edu> > Even the kaypro, while fairly > fast has the slowest screen on the planet. I I beg to differ. The slowest screen on the planet is the Pro350. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jun 29 23:34:32 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Interesting S100 boards In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Sat, 28 Jun 1997 11:23:14 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199706300434.VAA09791@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail writes: > California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square > and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] > > Any idea what this stuff is? Well, no. I pulled a CCS catalog (dated Feb 1981) and took a look, and the only 28xx card was the 2810 Z80 CPU. As I read the catalog, though, I might expect 28xx to mean some sort of processor or coprocessor. Or maybe not; CCS weren't entirely consistent with their numbering scheme and the sample sizes weren't that large. -Frank McConnell From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 30 02:04:07 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition References: Message-ID: <33B75A67.2AE4@ndirect.co.uk> Brett wrote: > > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > There are computers that you could not possibly USE but they are > > important for what they meant (and mean today) in short for their > > "heritage". Without them you could not have used (and use) the ones you > > are using today. How about the Science of Cambridge (Sinclair) MK XIV ? It had 256 bytes (NOT Kb, BYTES) of RAM memory, LED display, not modulator and no way of storing programs (you could add these at a later stage as accessories). enrico From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 30 02:21:26 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: bibliography References: Message-ID: <33B75E76.1936@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > - "Fumbling the Future" by Douglas Smith and Robert Alexander > > - "Halcion Days" By??? > > _Halcyon Days_ by James Hague, March 1997 (HTML on floppy) > On floppy ? Where can I get it then? Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 30 07:54:22 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <199706300350.AA14365@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Jun 29, 97 11:50:18 pm Message-ID: <9706301154.AA04219@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 856 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970630/f343afd0/attachment.ksh From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Mon Jun 30 14:09:11 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Digital PDT-11/150 disk drive? Message-ID: <33B80457.5093@xlisper.mv.com> Anyone know where I could get a replacement disk drive for a Digital PDT-11/150? This is a machine with an LSI-11 processor and two 8 inch floppy drives that runs RT-11. I've got two machines but one has a floppy that doesn't work. I'd like to find a replacement drive if possible. Thanks in advance, David Betz -- David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz@aol.com (603) 472-2389 From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 30 10:55:02 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <33B75A67.2AE4@ndirect.co.uk> References: <33B75A67.2AE4@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33b7d661.223116@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 07:04:07 +0000, you wrote: % %How about the Science of Cambridge (Sinclair) MK XIV ? It had 256 bytes %(NOT Kb, BYTES) of RAM memory, LED display, not modulator and no way of %storing programs (you could add these at a later stage as accessories). The Science of Cambridge Mk14 was sold and marketed as Mk14 and not MK XIV (AFAIK, still have an ad of it in Electronics Today International). Was SoC really Sinclair? I thought Sinclair and SoC were two different companies. Ben From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Mon Jun 30 17:03:50 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... In-Reply-To: References: <33B6B153.4E0A@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970630180350.006b8f58@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 11:06 PM 6/29/97 +0000, you wrote: >Hmmm. Interesting hypothesis. However, these boards are circa 1983, >while the 7800 is circa 1986 or something. The 7800 was completed and commercially ready in '84, but shelved by Atari (Tramiel) because of the apparent end to the videogame console industry that year, and their focus became home computers. But then in '86 when Nintendo started raking in millions showing that videogame consoles were more than a passing fad, they finally released the 7800 system. The 7800 was originally going to be upgradable to a 20K computer with a $100 keyboard/computer cartridge planned for late '84. Early model 7800s even sport the expansion port that was to be used to attach peripherals such as modems and printers. None of this was ever released. James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 30 17:51:37 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <2010@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <33B75A67.2AE4@ndirect.co.uk> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > Brett wrote: > > > > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > There are computers that you could not possibly USE but they are > > > important for what they meant (and mean today) in short for their > > > "heritage". Without them you could not have used (and use) the ones you > > > are using today. > I assume the following is one of the computers you claim can't possibly be used today... > How about the Science of Cambridge (Sinclair) MK XIV ? It had 256 bytes You mean an MK-14. I've never seen it printed in roman numerals (I have the machine, user manual, a couple of 3rd party books, the adverts, etc, etc,etc It was my first computer). > (NOT Kb, BYTES) of RAM memory, LED display, not modulator and no way of > storing programs (you could add these at a later stage as accessories). Perhaps you could explain _why_ I can't use one today. I've written many, many embedded control programs (monitor some inputs, update state variables, toggle outputs, etc) that would _trivially_ fit into 256 bytes of SC/MP code. If I add the optional INS8154 RAM/IO chip I have another 128 bytes of RAM and 16 bidirectional I/O lines. I can also add another 256 bytes by raiding my junk box for some 2111's. I can think of a few dozen applications that I could use that for. A trivial one is an I2C chip tester - replace the monitor ROMs with ones burnt to contain the correct code (avoids using the cassette interface option...), and have said code read I2C addresses/data from the hex keypad and bit-bang the I2C protocol on a couple of the 8154 lines. Or, how about a Centronics printer tester (emulate the centronics port on the 8154, make it print the classic scrolling ASCII text). Or a programmable pulse generator for digital IC testing. Or a hundred-and-one other applications. Yes, I can do any of those with a PC or many, many other machines. But the MK14 is small and portable. It doesn't need a monitor. It will start the program instantly at switch-on. It is still useful today. > > enrico > > -tony > From rcini at msn.com Mon Jun 30 17:45:35 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: ROM Archive Message-ID: Bill: {...} > 2. Submission & storage: UUEncoded image file e-mailed to "repository"; > ROM/EPROM chips sent by snail mail and returned. All submissions should have > as much info about the source computer as possible (board revisions, date of > mnaufacture, etc.) >>I think that anything doing with the chips (purchasing, programming, >>shipping) should be left to the person that needs them. Sure, not very >>many people on the list have programmers, but there are enough kind souls >>that would do the programming. Anyway, having a policy concerning >>shipping and supply may turn into a big headache. I don't think that this would be a problem. I don't anticipate that many people would want it this way (we are all hardware hackers {in the nice sense}, after all). Even so, as long as a person doesn't want Fedex delivery, how bad can it be?? > 4. Cost: nominal (cost of postage and EPROM). >>Doing any more may actually be legally shakey. I don't think so. See one of my earlier messages on this topic. If you're posting a ROMimage, you have already "paid" your licensing fee because you own the machine. I'm just replacing a defective copy with a working copy (sort of like exchanging a defective diskette dor a working one). We're not "creating" or "copying" for distribution. Also, we can limit it to pre-PC machines. Chances are that these manufacturers are either out of business or no longer support the machine. >>Additional thought... >>How will additional required information be tied to the ROM images (as in >>manufacturers part numbers, revision levels, serial numbers, >>corresponding hardware information, etc.)? ROMS (and PALs) often change >>as the circuits get minor "improvements" (ECOs). I don't know yet. I'm grappling with this now. There are all sorts of issues with this: parts are house numbered, or not numbered at all. Maybe we can go by unit serial number, date-of-manufacture stickers, and pc-board identifications (such as "Revision A" or the like). ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 30 18:24:56 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970630180350.006b8f58@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, James Carter wrote: > At 11:06 PM 6/29/97 +0000, you wrote: > >Hmmm. Interesting hypothesis. However, these boards are circa 1983, > >while the 7800 is circa 1986 or something. > > The 7800 was completed and commercially ready in '84, but shelved by Atari > (Tramiel) because of the apparent end to the videogame console industry > that year, and their focus became home computers. But then in '86 when > Nintendo started raking in millions showing that videogame consoles were > more than a passing fad, they finally released the 7800 system. > > The 7800 was originally going to be upgradable to a 20K computer with a > $100 keyboard/computer cartridge planned for late '84. Early model 7800s > even sport the expansion port that was to be used to attach peripherals > such as modems and printers. None of this was ever released. Good info. I posted on comp.sys.atari8 but nobody has responded yet. I did find out that I have another one of the Encryptor boards, so that makes two. This one has label that says "Futurex". Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 30 18:37:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: ROM Archive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > >>Additional thought... > >>How will additional required information be tied to the ROM images (as in > >>manufacturers part numbers, revision levels, serial numbers, > >>corresponding hardware information, etc.)? ROMS (and PALs) often change > >>as the circuits get minor "improvements" (ECOs). > > I don't know yet. I'm grappling with this now. There are all sorts of issues > with this: parts are house numbered, or not numbered at all. Maybe we can go > by unit serial number, date-of-manufacture stickers, and pc-board > identifications (such as "Revision A" or the like). I think without any markings on the chip you will have to go by the other clues on the board, such as revisions and part numbers. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 30 12:00:07 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Strange Tandy 1000HX Message-ID: I've just arranged for a Tandy 1000HX and it appears to be kind of odd. It was bought at one of Tandy's infamous 'tent sales' where they dispose of stuff they've had sitting around the local 'Shack, and the guy who bought it originally said that it didn't come with any 3-1/2" floppy installed and that both covers are still over the bays. It boots off of an external 5-1/4" drive, which if I remember correctly, is selectable easily enough by way of the SETUPHX program included with it's DOS diskettes. Do any of you TRS-80/Tandy knowledgable people remember ever seeing a HX set up like this? Every one of them I've ever seen new has come with a 3-1/2" floppy in the left-most bay, right next to the expansion connectors. I bought one of these nifty machines when they first appeared as well, and had an external 5-1/4" floppy and CM-11 monitor with it, as well as the PLUS memory, RS232 and 1200 bps modem cards. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon Jun 30 21:52:30 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Plural for Abacus References: <199706300702.AAA03766@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33B870EE.28C9@goldrush.com> >From: Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers >Subject: Re: 'Home' computer: Definition >On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: >> Which reminds me, my oldest handheld is from Korea. It feels great on my >> feet! My uncle picked it up for me in the mid-60's tho the design has been >> around in Asia for centuries. >Yeah, got three assorted items of that nature myself (abacuses? >abaci? Never met anybody with more than one to tell me the proper >plural!) >-- >Ward Griffiths Consulting "The Japanese Abacus; Its Use and Theory" by Takashi Kojima (12th printing, 1960) He uses "abacuses" as the plural form. (very interesting history that dates way back to Roman days and farther). Unfortunately I have a somewhat incompatible model from my book, on my wall is a chinese abacus with 5 and 2 beads per digit, where the japanese models use 4 and 1 (which sounds more logical to me, easier to execute a carry to the next digit.) An interesting chapter in the book covers a contest hosted by Stars & Stripes between a U.S. Pvt. in Macarthur's Finance Disbursing Section, (an awarded expert operator of calculators of the tim)e and a Japanese champion abacus operator from the Postal Ministry. As of 1946 the Japanese Abacuses were still able to beat the latest in American calculators. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 30 17:37:05 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Strange Tandy 1000HX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707010236.WAA06338@mail.cgocable.net> Jeff, Ok, put in generic 1.44 mb floppy drive and Pow! Why? that oddball half laptop shaped with out display pc has both 5v and 12v in place of several grounds lines in that internal floppy interface inside that 1000HX. Sometimes I use those newer 1.44 as a 720k substitute which works for XT's, heck, I did used one recently to boot up a IBM XT to make a new 360k disks from a bootable 720k 3.5" disks. While back, I converted both 720k HX floppy drives by cutting two thick traces on PCB and used them in clones. I think it used V40 cpu and, it will support 640k by itself by adding two bank worth of 256k x 1bit chips and move a jumper, it's on the little board with one chip on it. The 62pin bus is backwards and upside version of XT bus! Quite a project by itself to create a mini adapter using 62pin to a 90 deg slot to use MFM/RLL smallest hd controller but very doable via a small homebrew PCB. Otherwise use 8bit rom based scsi controller instead and find a small scsi hard drive which is much easier and more pleatiful. Easier this way because I did try to use XT IDE which is hairy work than that scsi solutions on a ZWL-183-92 laptop with external 5v drawn from laptop also to the card plugged via its XT type bus epansion slot and it saw the scsi hd easily. That is first step of my personal project to "standardize" that clunker to use standard scsi hd internally. In truth, 1000HX is very nifty machine in appearance and size. But I wished Tandy kept their heads and made more useful design in that same shells with 386 and pentium chips in it. :)) > I've just arranged for a Tandy 1000HX and it appears to be kind of odd. It > was bought at one of Tandy's infamous 'tent sales' where they dispose of stuff > they've had sitting around the local 'Shack, and the guy who bought it > originally said that it didn't come with any 3-1/2" floppy installed and that > both covers are still over the bays. It boots off of an external 5-1/4" > drive, which if I remember correctly, is selectable easily enough by way of > the SETUPHX program included with it's DOS diskettes. Huh? When we got this machine, we worked on it without needing that program...odd that's news to me. > Do any of you > TRS-80/Tandy knowledgable people remember ever seeing a HX set up like this? > Every one of them I've ever seen new has come with a 3-1/2" floppy in the > left-most bay, right next to the expansion connectors. I bought one of these > nifty machines when they first appeared as well, and had an external 5-1/4" > floppy and CM-11 monitor with it, as well as the PLUS memory, RS232 and 1200 > bps modem cards. > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 30 17:41:27 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <199706291543.LAA21758@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199707010241.WAA06790@mail.cgocable.net> Hey, that mailing list fudged part of my first line as their command which reported in error and refused to post it here. :( Q. Hold on, I would like to express my opinions... "Home Computer" term is invented by corporations to supposely help define their markets and totally miss it all the time because users needs is usually higher than their corporates' computers by factor of 1.5 to 2. At same time tries to pull off a coup on "home" users by selling stripped down with loads of cut corners and oft-nonstandard parts machine at horrible prices. Case in point: PCjr. PCjr and orignal 2 piece PS/1 (sold at 1000 bux cdn but you get no HD in it, introduced 1990's but users right away dumped them by pallets barely 2 years after. Yuk!) Side note: I traded few things to get this PS/1 2011 and used it for a while but sold it cheaply to a user who have modest needs than I. (for me, I can't manage well without hard drive attached even all the down to XT but not for apple II's their floppy drive is very fast enough to forgo hd, very impressed but at that time too expensive for my taste but now they are so cheap now.) So there was a bad taste to this name "home computers" in general. Similar types of computers did well in many areas but happened to lack important areas that killed it. Ironically, better to build DIY similar capablies 386, 80mb, 1mb, desktop/mono vga and still easily interchangable than that darned PS/1 2011 models. When I read about many machines and few "home computers" as called toys but I was mistaken when I saw and heard that "toy", boy, they're mistaken and I was taken too for a while! Indeed they were used for anything within their capablies so I accept anything that has CPU in it at same time useful and expandable should be decent computers, no more or less. :) C64, PET's, apples and such has just right stuff to keep users happy. In closing, corporations always underestimate "home" users. But now they are not pushing this word and crippled machines anymore, now selling them in general to any users execpt for corporations who needs turnkey system just to do very specific jobs like weak machine strictly for WP use, alphas for servers and heavy graphics, fast processor for programming but that is getting blurred that most users can afford them and can put them in their homes. Ok, now I could respond to yours... :) > I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms > indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. Suppose, Digital did not cared a whit and cut prices on that and we would be sure many would have one in home if they're small enough and easy on power requirements. Linux is there now and NT can be run on alphas but bit late and cost is fast appoaching to affordable levels where getting a pentium pro machine is not only option. > > For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in > general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as > any machine that you can: > > * Comfortably fit through your door... > > * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... > > * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... > > * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your home! > > Which just goes to show that such terminology is so relative, there's > little point in debating it. Why waste the bandwidth over something as > trivial as a difference in wording? > > (No, I'm not trying to start a flamewar; I posted this because I'm > concerned that the current thread regarding 'home' computers may erupt into > one!) > > Caveat Emperor! From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jun 27 12:47:06 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: IBM 32174 Message-ID: <199707031310.GAA12432@mx4.u.washington.edu> Anyone want IBM 3174, software and a modem? Save it from the dump! Located in Ohio (near Cleveland) From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jun 27 12:28:46 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <199707031310.GAA04318@mx5.u.washington.edu> > Of course if you were a real hacker you had an M-code box that let you > write the native 10 bit (?) instructions for the 41's CPU (I forget what > it's called). I got more into the guts of the HP-71, which was a 20-bit, nybble-oriented. It had a Saturn chip (I think), on which I programmed in FORTH. A FORTH chip was talked about for the HP-41 (never heard it called a coco, though) but I don't know if it jelled. From george.lin at documentum.com Sun Jun 1 04:06:34 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970601020634.00a92bc0@lion.documentum.com> I responded to a Usenet post regarding some UCSD P-Code stuff. It turned out the guy had a garage of other stuff that he was trying to get rid of. Here's what I got in two carloads: o 1 Kaypro II, 1 Kaypro 2X (dead--for parts), 1 Kaypro 4 o 1 boxed Commodore 64, 1 Commodore 128, plus a bunch of Commodore accessories including a CP/M cartridge for C64 o 1 Osborne Executive o 1 Compaq suitcase o 1 Atari 520ST (dead--for parts), 1 Atari 1040ST, 1 boxed Atari Falcon030, plus 2 Atari RGB monitors and other Atari accessories o 1 boxed Timex Sinclair 1000 o 1 TRS-80 Model 1 with expansion interface and disk drive o 1 Vector 4 o 2 Apple IIc's, one of them is a rare prototype o 20 Xerox paper cartons full of original software on disks/tapes for the above systems, manuals, out-of-print computer books, and old computer magazines The price? Free. George P.S. My back still hurts. -- ______________________________ ______________________________ / /\ / /\ / George Lin _/ /\ / Opinions expressed in this _/ /\ / Antique Computer Collector / \/ / message do not necessarily / \/ / http://museum.home.ml.org /\ / reflect my employer's. /\ /_____________________________/ / /_____________________________/ / \_____________________________\/ \_____________________________\/ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ Apple IIe, IIc, Mac 512K, Atari 800, 800XL, 1040ST, Falcon030, VCS, 5200, ColecoVision VGS, Commodore 64, 64C, 128, plus/4, Compaq, Eagle II, KayPro II, 4, Nintendo NES, Osborne Executive, TI 99/4A, Timex Sinclair 1000, 1500, TriGem SLT-100, TRS-80 Model I, III, 100, Color Computer 2, Vector 4. From gram at terra.cnct.com Sun Jun 1 09:45:20 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970601020634.00a92bc0@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > > The price? Free. > > P.S. My back still hurts. My heart bleeds, you lucky bastard. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 00:43:22 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > > About 5 feet of disks (apple II) of which about 25 or so were CP/M (?) > > CP/M disks? Ooh, wish I had those for my IIe... I have a Microsoft SoftCard IIe > (brilliant product, btw) but the CP/M boot disks for it are gone. I really > should talk to Don Maslin, I suppose. I have the originals (as well as the card itself). Let me know if you want copies. > And how do you measure disks in feet? Side by side? :-) > > > > About 10 feet of books including (and I don't know why) users manuals and > > tape software for an "Epson HX20 Notebook Computer" (didn't get the > > computer tho :( looks neat no the cover) > > Oh yeah! Pity you didn't get the computer. It was a really good machine > (for its time). You can see some detailed information about it at: I have one, and would be interested in the manuals if Mr. Self Destruct would be so kind. I forget exactly who Mr. SD is so if he could send me an e-mail perhaps we can work out a trade. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 01:24:32 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970601020634.00a92bc0@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > I responded to a Usenet post regarding some UCSD P-Code stuff. It turned > out the guy had a garage of other stuff that he was trying to get rid of. > Here's what I got in two carloads: <...> > accessories including a CP/M cartridge for C64 A CP/M _carthridge_? Awesome. > o 1 Atari 520ST (dead--for parts), 1 Atari 1040ST, 1 boxed Atari Falcon030, What's a Falcon030? > o 1 boxed Timex Sinclair 1000 Boxed? Sweet. > o 1 Vector 4 What's that? > o 2 Apple IIc's, one of them is a rare prototype What's the prototype like? I would be totally interested in seeing a picture of this and hearing more detail about it. > The price? Free. Actually, I'm used to getting most of my stuff for free now. I hate it when I have to pay for any old computer junk because I've been so spoiled with free crap lately. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 01:21:05 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970601020634.00a92bc0@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > I responded to a Usenet post regarding some UCSD P-Code stuff. It turned > out the guy had a garage of other stuff that he was trying to get rid of. > Here's what I got in two carloads: > o 1 Kaypro II, 1 Kaypro 2X (dead--for parts), 1 Kaypro 4 > o 1 boxed Commodore 64, 1 Commodore 128, plus a bunch of Commodore > accessories including a CP/M cartridge for C64 > o 1 Osborne Executive > o 1 Compaq suitcase > o 1 Atari 520ST (dead--for parts), 1 Atari 1040ST, 1 boxed Atari Falcon030, > plus 2 Atari RGB monitors and other Atari accessories > o 1 boxed Timex Sinclair 1000 > o 1 TRS-80 Model 1 with expansion interface and disk drive > o 1 Vector 4 > o 2 Apple IIc's, one of them is a rare prototype > o 20 Xerox paper cartons full of original software on disks/tapes for the > above systems, manuals, out-of-print computer books, and old computer > magazines > > The price? Free. My personal haul today is not nearly as impressive, mostly because I had to pay for the stuff, but I can't complain, since I've had days like George's a couple of times. An HP-85 and Commdore Tape Drive (ooh ahh) for $20. The HP85 is pretty cool. It has a tiny CRT built into the unit (the same size as an Osborne 1's screen). It is about the same dimensions as an Apple ][, but with the added height to house the screen and a built-in printer (don't know if it is thermal or ink, all I know is that it is quiet...any help on this?) It also has a built in BASIC, it seems to be capable of hi-res graphics, and it has a 5-slot HPIB bus on the back. A very cool system. Anyway, know anything more about this thing? I'd like to get a manual and some HPIB cards. An Apple ][ - it's in ratty shape but I got it for $7 with some periphs. I need to clean it up. This one seems to have auto-start integer basic ROMs (it finds the disk controller and boots it rather than dumping into the monitor when you turn it on), which is odd but I think I've heard of this before. I'm still going to be on the look-out for a nicer one, but this one will suffice for now. Also, it is missing the D8 ROM but seems to work fine, Integer BASIC and all. Anyone know anything about this? An Atari 600XL in the original box - the box has seen better days, but this unit is complete, with all the accesories in their original box/bag. This is a nice complement to my 800XL. I also met a guy who says he has all manner of atari stuff, like a 65XE and 130XE, so I'm going to be hooking up with him to check that stuff out. - $10 And the cool find of the day: get this, an Epson PX-8 laptop! This is similar to the Epson HX-20, but is sleeker and better. It has a flip-up display (looks like 10 lines by 80 columns), a full-size keyboard, and like the HX-20 has a micro-cassette tape drive for storage. That's all I know about it so far because I got no manuals and haven't been able to power it up yet (I need to find the right PS). Allegedly it runs CP/M. I'll fill you guys in on the details as I figure it out. I think this is a new find, and needs to be added to the classiccmp list o' systems. I don't remember it being in there. Am I wrong? At any rate, this is truly THE FIND OF THE DAY! - $15 I passed on an IBM 5155 for $30 because it was in ratty shape and I didn't even want to bother haggling over it. It was being sold by the same guy who I bought the Apple ][ from and who has the Atari stuff, so I figure I can always go back for it. Was I foolish to pass this up? I was told it comes up with a PARITY ERROR upon boot up, which most likely means a bad RAM chip. I also saw some Digital platters which might interest you DECheads. I can't remember the model number (something like RKL051...) but they were brand spanking new in a sealed plastic bag (two of them). If someone wants these, I can always find the seller and snag them for you. Also, I still have that RK-02 dual 8" drive unit if anyone is interested. Hope your classic computer scrounging was a fruitful as mine was. Stay tuned for further information on the Vintage Computer Festival (as I am now calling it). I should have a firm date and more details within the next couple of weeks. If all goes as I am planning, it should be a nice show, and will hopefully get some of you long distance folks to come out to california to attend. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 01:27:22 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: stuff to pass along Message-ID: Auction Web is a crappy place to get old computer junk from, but there is a guy auctioning off an HP9000/300 and another guy with a Radio Shack Model 1 and Model 4 (TRS-80 I believe). The 9000 is going for (I forget how much) but the TRS-80s are at $26 but nobody has bid yet (the guy started it at $26 which is too much). If it doesn't sell someone can go in and make the guy an offer after the auction is over. You can get to auction web by going to http://www.ebay.com/aw Once you're there, search on item pzp53335 for the HP9000/300 and item zyl71421 for the TRS-80s. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 01:00:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: <199705282322.RAA24573@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 1997, Jim wrote: > And now, in the "the more things change, the more they stay the same" category, > > By now most of you have probably heard of the Tiger Learning Computer. It's > an apple 2E clone that plugs into your tv and has rom carts for its programs. > > Let's see. Color, plugs into a tv, can be cartrige driven, less than 200 > bucks US. *sigh* I think Commodore died too soon. The 64 was all this and > more. Now if I could just find one of the little beasties... (the TLC, > not the C=64 - it wouldn't be the same as the one that was MINE.) I've been wanting to get one of these really bad. They kinda sorta decided to scrap the whole idea (they=Tiger). I guess JCPenny has an exclusive distribution but everytime I checked their catalog during christmas they didn't have it in there. If somebody knows where I can buy the Tiger Learning Computer from, by all means speak up. I was reading an issue of BusinessWeek that had an article on commercial product design awards. Awards are given out each year for industrial design of various products. This year a couple computers, which are surely to become classic 10 years from now, won awards. I was thinking about other systems that will be classic collectibles 10 years from now. So allow me to propose this list of computers that will be so: The Psion Series 3 (3, 3a, 3c) and Psion Siena - awesome palmtop computers with multi-tasking operating system and integrated applcations (I have one and swear as well as live by it). Any PalmTop - HP OmniGo, Casio Cassiopea (with Windows CE), etc. Also, some of the personal digital assistants like the Sharp Zaurus. The Apple Newton and the Sony MagicLink. The Apple eMate (one of the industrial design winners). It has a touch-screen and is basically a Newton but has a full-sized keyboard and is smaller and lighter than a laptop. It has no disk or hard drive. The Philips VELO1 - a palmtop running Windows CE (also a winner in the BusinessWeek article). The Samsung NETboard computer - another winner, you have to see this one, it is truly awesome. I wouldn't mind collecting it right now. The IBM Aptiva which puts the CPU, CD-ROM and disk drive in a slim console and the hard drive and expansion chassis in a seperate box (I assume connected by a bus cable). Again, this was another industrial design winner. So anyway, this is just my speculation. I think what makes these systems stand out from the rest of the crap you have today is that they are unique or have special features about them that set them apart from the Wintel clones (which is I guess to reiterate they are unique). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 02:24:35 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: free stuff Message-ID: Hope someone can take advantage of some of this: ---#1--- I would like to see my Apple II+ system go to someone who would appreciate it. II+, 64K RAM, keyboard shift mod, 300 baud modem, 1 floppy drive, Taxan amber monochrome monitor, UCSD Pascal, various game software, Softline and SoftTalk magazines. Location: Ventura County, CA Merleen Gholdston -- ---#2--- A friend of mine forwarded this to me, unfortunately I have no cash. :( ------------------------------------------------------------------- * Alan Cruikshank * * HYPERWARE CONSULTING * * e-mail: * * http://freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~cshank * ------------------------------------------------------------------- *** This special offer is from: David M. Dantowitz, If anyone wants a bunch of Apple II computers for Free (shipping from New Jersey) let me know. There's a bunch of II, IIc, and IIe computers, mono chrome and color monitors, extra drives, cables, printer boards, software and other stuff. They're about to be dumped into a dumpster, so if anyone has a desire for the machines and grade school software, let me know. ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- ---#3--- I have about 30-35 servicable Apple IIes that need a home. My school district no longer needs them and I need to get rid of them quickly. If you are interested in more infomation email me or call me at 414-788-7600. John Bestul, Little Chute Area School District. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kevan at motiv.co.uk Mon Jun 2 03:11:12 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: A question... Message-ID: <199706020811.JAA03587@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> I've been given a challenge... and need some help.... Question: Which 80's home computer had an A-Z keyboard layout, and not QWERTY -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Mon Jun 2 09:31:17 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706021431.JAA10598@fudge.uchicago.edu> Sam Ismail said, > An Apple ][ - it's in ratty shape but I got it for $7 with some > periphs. I need to clean it up. This one seems to have auto-start > integer basic ROMs ... Also, it is missing the D8 ROM but seems to > work fine, Integer BASIC and all. Anyone know anything about this? That's normal for an Integer BASIC Apple II, actually. Integer BASIC isn't big enough to require the $Dxxx address space, so those sockets were left empty for add-on ROMs. The chip in the D0 socket is probably the "Programmer's Aid" chip, which contained a collection of subroutines for assembly language programming. > And the cool find of the day: get this, an Epson PX-8 laptop! Neat! Yes, it runs CP/M and has WordStar. Eric From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Mon Jun 2 09:41:05 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: A question... In-Reply-To: <199706020811.JAA03587@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: <199706021441.JAA10669@fudge.uchicago.edu> Kevan Heydon said, > Question: Which 80's home computer had an A-Z keyboard layout, and > not QWERTY The Bally Astrocade did, assuming you count what it had as actually being a keyboard :) Also the TRS-80 Pocket Computer Model 7 has an A-Z keyboard, though I don't know whether you'd want to count pocket models as home computers. eric From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Mon Jun 2 10:08:51 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 01 Jun 1997 23:21:05 PDT." Message-ID: <199706021508.KAA03560@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Sam wrote: >An HP-85 and Commdore Tape Drive (ooh ahh) for $20. The HP85 is pretty >cool. It has a tiny CRT built into the unit (the same size as an Osborne >1's screen). It is about the same dimensions as an Apple ][, but with >the added height to house the screen and a built-in printer (don't know >if it is thermal or ink, all I know is that it is quiet...any help on >this?) It also has a built in BASIC, it seems to be capable of hi-res >graphics, and it has a 5-slot HPIB bus on the back. A very cool >system. Anyway, know anything more about this thing? I'd like to get a >manual and some HPIB cards. Congrats. This is one of my favorites. I got mine free from our Chemistry department (and later got a 9825 from them as well). They have one of the more ecclectic collections of computers I've seen. Anyway, the printer is thermal. You will want to check out the drive belts. They are toothed belts and over time get brittle and may strip. I've stripped the main drive one on mine and the head drive belt looks like it may not last much longer. Also my tape drive has stopped working. I haven't looked into why yet though. I do have manuals and a little bit of expansion stuff, but they're not for sale. I will be glad to look up answers to any questions you might have though and if you're interested, I can try to make a copy of the pocket programming guide. It has all the BASIC commands listed. Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Jun 2 10:31:20 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 1, 97 11:00:11 pm Message-ID: <199706021531.JAA20740@calico.litterbox.com> I ordered a Tiger from Pennys last week. It is available in the spring and summer catalog. My understanding is that they've comitted to 8000 of them a month. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 11:14:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: osborne 1 serial number Message-ID: I finally got a chance to play with my Osborne 1 and must say it is a nice little system. For its time it was a great product. The software is very user-friendly and overall the system runs quite nicely. The disk drives are rather fast. I was making backups of my system disks and it reads almost 5 tracks per second (but writes at about a rate of 5 seconds per track). Hey, my Osborne 1 has serial number A01284. Can anyone beat that? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 11:10:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: EPSON PX-8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > And the cool find of the day: get this, an Epson PX-8 laptop! This is > similar to the Epson HX-20, but is sleeker and better. It has a flip-up > display (looks like 10 lines by 80 columns), a full-size keyboard, and > like the HX-20 has a micro-cassette tape drive for storage. That's > all I know about it so far because I got no manuals and haven't been able > to power it up yet (I need to find the right PS). Allegedly it runs > CP/M. I'll fill you guys in on the details as I figure it out. I think > this is a new find, and needs to be added to the classiccmp list o' > systems. I don't remember it being in there. Am I wrong? At any rate, > this is truly THE FIND OF THE DAY! - $15 OK, I found my HX-20 power supply and fired this sucker up. Talk about neat-o. It indeed does have CP/M in ROM! It also has two 32K ROM drives and a 24K RAM drive. The drives can be configured anyway you like. The current setting is: A: = RAM, B: = ROM1, C: = ROM2. ROM1 has the standard CP/M utilities on it, such as PIP, STAT, etc. ROM2 has WordStar! This unit is capable of hi-res graphics it seems, as when you boot wordstar it comes up with a big MicroPro graphics display. There is a configuration program which allows you to set up the system. You can set the dimensions of two seperate virtual screens. Currently virtual screen 1 is set to 80x24, and virtual screen 2 is set to 80x8, which is the actual dimensions of the LCD flip-up display. You can also set the serial port baud rate (up to 19200!). This unit has several ports on the back, including a Serial port, an RS-232C port (I gleaned from the configuration that one seems to be for a modem while the other for a printer perhaps). It can also hook-up to up to 4 external disk drives. One program on the ROM drive called FILINK allows you to transfer files over the RS232C port, I guess like a laplink (not sure though). This unit seems to be circa 1983 as all the programs have copyrights of that year. This is an entirely cool little system...a CP/M laptop. What a concept. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 11:28:00 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: A question... In-Reply-To: <199706020811.JAA03587@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Kevan Heydon wrote: > > I've been given a challenge... and need some help.... > > Question: Which 80's home computer had an A-Z keyboard layout, and not > QWERTY One that didn't find much of a market base and became obsolete pretty quickly. Let us know when you find out. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 11:34:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: <199706021531.JAA20740@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Jim wrote: > I ordered a Tiger from Pennys last week. It is available in the spring and > summer catalog. My understanding is that they've comitted to 8000 of them > a month. Wow, I'm surprised actually. I didn't think it would ever get off the ground. That's really cool though. I'm going to go out and get mine. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From pcoad at crl.com Mon Jun 2 11:52:00 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970601020634.00a92bc0@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > I responded to a Usenet post regarding some UCSD P-Code stuff. It turned > out the guy had a garage of other stuff that he was trying to get rid of. > > The price? Free. Holy crap! I got an Osborne Executive from the same guy. In fact I saw George there, but didn't know it at the time. Of course the guy had to tell me that had I responded a little earlier, all of the stuff would have been mine. Gak! (Repeat to self several times: must read comp.os.cpm every day.) Atleast it went to a collector and not into a dumpster. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 2 11:59:39 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Switch settings for Seattle Computer Products RAM card? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20508B5EA@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Anybody have the switch settings for the Seattle Computer Products 16K Plus (SCP-16K) S-100 bus RAM card? thanks! Kai From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 2 11:58:25 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Great weekend for old computers! Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20508B5E5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I had a lot of great accomplishments this weekend on the classic computer front! First off, I got two Apple ///+ machines in a thrift store! Anyone have a copy of SOS for these suckers? Regarding my problems with the Apple II+ booting, I found another II+ for $20 and figured it would be easier to replace the whole system unit rather than the RAM (24 x $0.79 for 4116's) at that price. It works! So it wasn't the drives or controller cards causing the problem. I received my two North Star Horizons via UPS (a trade for a couple of TRS-80 Mod 100's and a C128), along with 50-60 diskettes and documentation. Got one of them up and running late last night, but need to find some RAM card docs (see separate mail on that). A friend at work gave me an Amiga 500, I set that up this weekend and played around a bit, that's a fun machine. Kai From pcoad at crl.com Mon Jun 2 12:09:35 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: EPSON PX-8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > OK, I found my HX-20 power supply and fired this sucker up. Talk about > neat-o. It indeed does have CP/M in ROM! It also has two 32K ROM drives > and a 24K RAM drive. The drives can be configured anyway you like. The > current setting is: A: = RAM, B: = ROM1, C: = ROM2. ROM1 has the standard > CP/M utilities on it, such as PIP, STAT, etc. ROM2 has WordStar! This > unit is capable of hi-res graphics it seems, as when you boot wordstar it > comes up with a big MicroPro graphics display. There is a configuration > program which allows you to set up the system. You can set the dimensions > of two seperate virtual screens. Currently virtual screen 1 is set to > 80x24, and virtual screen 2 is set to 80x8, which is the actual dimensions > of the LCD flip-up display. You can also set the serial port baud rate > (up to 19200!). > > This unit has several ports on the back, including a Serial port, an > RS-232C port (I gleaned from the configuration that one seems to be for a > modem while the other for a printer perhaps). It can also hook-up to up > to 4 external disk drives. The other port is for connecting a disk drive. > This is an entirely cool little system...a CP/M laptop. What a concept. > It is a pretty nice machine. You didn't mention the built in micro cassette drive which looks to CP/M just like a floppy (more or less). The tape drive transfers data at 300 baud so it can easily provide hours of fun and enjoyment. On the other hand, the system does know where all of the files are on the tape so it does not have to be manually searched. A dejanews search on Epson and px-8 will provide a good deal of information, make sure to select the "Old" database though. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Jun 2 13:01:47 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Great weekend for old computers! In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20508B5E5@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970602140147.00975870@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, a bunch of people on this list said: >First off, I got two Apple ///+ machines in a thrift store!... yadda, yadda, yadda... [[ Editor's Note: I put this in the beginning so people wouldn't read the first half of the posting and flame the HEdoublehockeysticks out of me... Please read this with the tounge-in-cheek, winkie's throughout attitude with which it was written... tho unforch, it's sadly true....... ;-) ]] You people make me sick! Mr. I got 42 classic systems from one guy this, and Ms. I saw 18 fully loaded computers at the thrift shop that!!! I've had it up to here (imagine a hand held up above the head) with you weasels! Do any of you send your good fortune / good luck my way? NooOOooOOooOOoo! All I've seen the last three weekends of garage saleing is this: A non-functional Atari 5200 game system and 5 games for $5 USD. System worked but neither controller did... until a quick visit with Intern Victorinox to clean the connections... A follow-up visit with Dr. Dremel is in the works, but I've not had time. Altho, the system did come with the trackball controller, and as the SN# of the controller is 000786, I'm wondering if this item is relatively rare... My 7-year-old loves it (as does Dad...) and I feel it will stay in my collection for some time to come... Back to my rant, I finally got up the nerve/time to go visit the Salvation Army Thrift store on my lunch hour (the only T.S. in my town, AFAIK) and guess what the sum total of computer-stuffs I saw there: an HP (I think... no markings) LaserJet drum/toner cartridge. With no price, so they prolly wanted $8million 'cause they didn't know what it was. And I'm sure it wouldn't fit in my HPLJ5L (which BTW I paid full price for 'cause it was the first non-business-owned 5L in town). So, for all you "I get 77 like-new classic systems for a penny every weekend" I have but one thing to say: :-PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP At least the 3rd weekend in June, we'll be travelling 250 miles closer to civilization, and may be able to find some interesting buys there. I'll keep you posted. Also, see my next post. I think almost *everyone* will be happy with me when you read it. See ya, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Jun 2 13:23:06 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Eproms... you want 'em, he's got 'em! In-Reply-To: References: <199705220229.VAA28410@ds9.comland.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970602142306.00920a70@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Sam Ismail said: >On Wed, 21 May 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > >> I have found what seems to be a decent supply of eproms... yadda, yadda, yadda... >This is a great suggestion, worthy of the FAQ. Beware that you don't >cannabalize what could be considered a classic peripheral though. [[ Editor's Note: I've been meaning to respond to this for some time, but the opportunity hadn't come up yet... ]] Right, and I may be able to help you on this one... A few months back, I won a bid (well... there weren't many bids, actually) on AuctionWeb where the person was selling used EPROM lots... 40 to a lot. A lot consisted of 10 each 2716's, 32's, 64's and 128's. Starting bid was $8.00, and he had 20 or more lots for sale. I bid on three, and they never went beyond baseline, so I sent my money, and back they came. Needless to say, I now have a 10-year supply of eproms for myself... Remembering this discussion, I recently contacted him by e-mail and asked him if he had any other e-proms, like 1702's and whatnot. (I don't need those chips, but many of you might.) Here's his directly pasted reply: ======================== reply follows ======================== Hi, Thanks for the e-mail. Yes, we have plenty of the older Eproms like the 1702's and 2708's. Also many other components that may be of interest to your group. We have a web page now (www.mchoward.com) that has all of our current memory pricing. It won't have the things you are looking for, but we can be reached through it. Or you can e-mail me at the office mchoward@prismnet.com or call me on our toll free number 1-800-490-6896. Someone is there M-F 8:30-5:30 CST and SAT 10:00-2:00 CST. We would appreciate any business you can send our way. Thanks, Mel Howard M. C. Howard Electronics, Inc. www.mchoward.com E-mail: mchoward@prismnet.com 1-800-490-6896 512-837-2525 FAX512-837-3246 ========================= end of reply ======================== I have no affiliation with this person other than being a satisfied customer, but from what I've seen he's reasonable on his prices, prompt with shipment, and a very understanding individual as I had to delay payment for a short period due to a family crisis (which is still going on...). I would recommend doing business with him, and I would be interested to learn what other "artifacts" he has available... as you don't find many folks with 1702's in stock, it would seem. Anyway, I hope this gets a few more classic machines working again... Thanks, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From george.lin at documentum.com Mon Jun 2 14:10:45 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970601020634.00a92bc0@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970602121045.00aaa570@lion.documentum.com> At 11:24 PM 6/1/97 -0700, you wrote: ><...> >> accessories including a CP/M cartridge for C64 > >A CP/M _carthridge_? Awesome. I just tried it yesterday. Pretty cool. The Z80 is in the cartridge. The package comes with a CP/M 2.2 diskette for 1541 and a condensed CP/M manual by Commodore (copyright 1983). There is a K-Mart price tag on the original box that reads $54. Not bad. >> o 1 Atari 520ST (dead--for parts), 1 Atari 1040ST, 1 boxed Atari Falcon030, > >What's a Falcon030? It's an Atari ST based on 68030. It has built-in SCSI, AppleTalk, and MIDI interfaces. I have a CD-ROM full of ST stuff--that will keep me busy for days. The GUI seems to be built into the ROM. >> o 1 Vector 4 > >What's that? Vector Graphics Model 4. Unfortunately, the system is dead when I got around to test it--no display and the disk drive just clicks. >> o 2 Apple IIc's, one of them is a rare prototype > >What's the prototype like? I would be totally interested in seeing a >picture of this and hearing more detail about it. It looks much like the production IIc but without all the glamor. For example, the top is smooth, unlike the ribbed vent you find on the production ones. I will be glad to take some digital photos and email them to you, if you are interested. George -- ______________________________ ______________________________ / /\ / /\ / George Lin _/ /\ / Opinions expressed in this _/ /\ / Antique Computer Collector / \/ / message do not necessarily / \/ / http://museum.home.ml.org /\ / reflect my employer's. /\ /_____________________________/ / /_____________________________/ / \_____________________________\/ \_____________________________\/ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ Apple IIe, IIc, Mac 512K, Atari 800, 800XL, 1040ST, Falcon030, VCS, 5200, ColecoVision VGS, Commodore 64, 64C, 128, plus/4, Compaq suitcase PC, Eagle II, Epson HX-20, KayPro II, 4, Nintendo NES, Osborne Executive, TI 99/4A, Timex Sinclair 1000, 1500, TriGem SLT-100, TRS-80 Model I, III, 100, Color Computer 2. From george.lin at documentum.com Mon Jun 2 14:18:21 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970601020634.00a92bc0@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970602121821.00aa4590@lion.documentum.com> At 09:52 AM 6/2/97 -0700, you wrote: >Holy crap! I got an Osborne Executive from the same guy. In fact I >saw George there, but didn't know it at the time. Of course the guy >had to tell me that had I responded a little earlier, all of the stuff >would have been mine. Gak! (Repeat to self several times: must read >comp.os.cpm every day.) Atleast it went to a collector and not into a >dumpster. That was you!? My wife saw you. She told me that some guy carried an Osborne Executive out from the house and she was amazed that people are still interested in these junk. She is actually very supportive in my effort to collect old computers. She drove another car to help me haul the stuff. Both cars were packed to the roof (one of them is a pretty big station wagon). George From frank at 5points.com Mon Jun 2 15:12:34 1997 From: frank at 5points.com (Frank Peseckis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: another weekend tale: northstar, hp, cadr 6 & 7, et al Message-ID: <33981589.323803515@mail.capital.net> This is my first posting to the list. Reading about everyone else's exploits saving old systems, I have to add what I got myself into this past weekend. After responding to a usenet posting about an old computer, I discovered that the poster (who turned out to be a fellow MIT alum three states away, a fact at least tangentially relevant to some of what follows) was about to toss into the local landfill some old stuff he had stored in his basement. A nice guy, he had offered this stuff to everyone he knew, but (incredible as it may seem to this list) he found no takers. Some scheduled home reconstruction required he have the basement empty by June 1. I volunteered to drive the 3 hours one way and pick it up. So, for nothing but my time and the cost of gas, here's what I saved: 1) A Northstar Horizon. Nice condition. With 64k memory and compupro z80 boards. Plus system software (cpm and northstar dos), hard sector 5.25 floppies, and a cardboard box full of docs, including the system manuals, misc s-100 books, and even the documentation for Microsoft's Fortran-80 in its original funky rust colored vinyl binder. If anyone has any s-100 boards they can spare, and would be willing to sell, that could help expand this system beyond the cpu-memory-floppy controller basics it has now, I'd love to hear from them. 2) Two HP-86B's, with cp/m, modem et al cartridges, software for waveform and circuit analysis, plus another box full of docs. Unfortunately, no original external disk drives, so here's another thing I'm looking for, if anyone has them to spare. 3) TRS-80 Model II disk drive system. Has three 8" drives in a single enclosure. Haven't checked it out yet to see if it works. 4) The guts from both the CADR 6 and CADR 7 MIT Lisp Machines from the late '70s. These were the basis for the machines later from Symbolics. Actually, my new found friend decided to keep the steel racks for an as yet to be determined project . This may have been just as well because I had no room to haul the two 6 foot tall cases back to my house. So I had to leave them behind, power supplies still attached. But I got all the internal boards, fans, cables et al from the lisp machines, including the two 5 foot tall back planes and a couple dozen boards measuring about 12" x 18" each. I'm going to try to get the cases too, but I'm not sure I'll be able to. The machines weren't running at the time he got them from someone at MIT. Steel racks or not, I may have just acquired myself a lifelong mission to search for someone who can make these work, since I'm out of my league here. Since this is a list devoted to classic computers, I don't need to go into details about the couple of 386's, monitors, and one or two hardware mutants (would you believe a Tandy-DEC hybrid?) that also got tossed into my Toyota. Altogether an interesting bunch of stuff. Frank Frank Peseckis frank@5points.com http://www.5points.com/ From idavis at comland.com Mon Jun 2 16:40:39 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Eproms... you want 'em, he's got 'em! Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970602214039.0093f59c@mail.comland.com > At 02:23 PM 6/2/97 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: >Mel Howard >M. C. Howard Electronics, Inc. >www.mchoward.com >E-mail: mchoward@prismnet.com >1-800-490-6896 >512-837-2525 >FAX512-837-3246 >I would recommend doing business with him, and I would be interested to >learn what other "artifacts" he has available... as you don't find many >folks with 1702's in stock, it would seem. > >Anyway, I hope this gets a few more classic machines working again... > >Thanks, >"Merch" >-- >Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, >Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should >zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. > I went to the web page, and signed the guestbook. As a total coincidence, I got directions to the place. As it turns out, it is about 2 blocks from where I work. I will go visit the place, and see if he has any kind of "list of stuff", specifically old stuff. After I go visit, I will post a message and let you know what he's got that might be of interest. We know he has eproms, but I'll head over there and see what kind of supply he has. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From pcoad at crl.com Mon Jun 2 17:58:14 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970602121821.00aa4590@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > That was you!? My wife saw you. She told me that some guy carried an > Osborne Executive out from the house and she was amazed that people are > still interested in these junk. She is actually very supportive in my > effort to collect old computers. She drove another car to help me haul the > stuff. Both cars were packed to the roof (one of them is a pretty big > station wagon). > It was me. My wife still thinks I am the only one who collects this kind of junk. She goes along with it because it is not very expensive and she gets to play games on some of the machines. (I think that she has logged more time on our vectrex than I have.) I am running out of space. I don't think I could store 2 carloads of stuff without completely annexing the garage. Where do you put it all? --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 2 18:31:19 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:13 2005 Subject: Trackstar 128 (RE: Name those cards game) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20504C12A@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: And to give a little more info... I've maintained a FAQ on the TrackStar for the last four or five years. You can take a peek at it at http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/faqs/ts.faq It doesn't actually have a whole lot to say, but does tell you where to get software and docs if you need them. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw > "Now you can run Apple IIc educational and game software on your Tandy > 1000...with the TRACKSTAR 128 adapter. Imagine having the best of both > worlds in one computer...Supports the use of Apple joysticks or game > port devices such as Muppet Learning Keys. [???]" > $399.95 From george.lin at documentum.com Mon Jun 2 19:16:45 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Some more finds Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970602171645.00a9d120@lion.documentum.com> I have begun to open up the boxes that I got this Saturday and found some more interesting stuff. Boy, this is like Christmas and only better (People don't send me junk as Christmas presents). There is a mint-condition Epson HX-20 stashed in the bottom of a box. It comes complete with the hard case, PS, serial cable, and a set of manuals. The system works but it seems that the battery won't hold a charge. I will probably need to swap out the internal NiCads before it can be a real portable. I found another handheld device named "Trans Term." It's about the size of a HP-71 but thicker. It has a membrane QWERTY keyboard. The LCD can probably display only a few lines at most. It has a DB25 port (probably for a modem) and a power-in jack. There is no other identification or marking. I have not tried to power it up since I don't have the PS. Does anyone know something about it? For many years, I thought Microsoft released Flight Simulator as their only game. I was wrong. I found a game that Microsoft released for TRS-80 Level 1 BASIC named Microsoft Olympic Decathlon. The game is on tape. The manual is copyright 1980. It has the old Microsoft logo on it. George -- ______________________________ ______________________________ / /\ / /\ / George Lin _/ /\ / Opinions expressed in this _/ /\ / Antique Computer Collector / \/ / message do not necessarily / \/ / http://museum.home.ml.org /\ / reflect my employer's. /\ /_____________________________/ / /_____________________________/ / \_____________________________\/ \_____________________________\/ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ Apple IIe, IIc, Mac 512K, Atari 800, 800XL, 1040ST, Falcon030, VCS, 5200, ColecoVision VGS, Commodore 64, 64C, 128, plus/4, Compaq suitcase PC, Eagle II, Epson HX-20, KayPro II, 4, Nintendo NES, Osborne Executive, TI 99/4A, Timex Sinclair 1000, 1500, TriGem SLT-100, TRS-80 Model I, III, 100, Color Computer 2. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 2 19:37:32 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Some more finds Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2050B7B0A@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | From: George Lin[SMTP:george.lin@documentum.com] | For many years, I thought Microsoft released Flight Simulator as their only | game. I was wrong. I found a game that Microsoft released for TRS-80 | Level 1 BASIC named Microsoft Olympic Decathlon. The game is on tape. | The manual is copyright 1980. It has the old Microsoft logo on it. Don't forget Microsoft Adventure, circa 1979, which was coded by Gordon "HPFS" Letwin himself. I still have the poster. Kai From gram at terra.cnct.com Mon Jun 2 19:56:31 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Some more finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970602171645.00a9d120@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > For many years, I thought Microsoft released Flight Simulator as their only > game. I was wrong. I found a game that Microsoft released for TRS-80 > Level 1 BASIC named Microsoft Olympic Decathlon. The game is on tape. The > manual is copyright 1980. It has the old Microsoft logo on it. They also sold a port of the original "Adventure" for a couple of systems. Of course, Microsoft themselves never sold Flight Simulator for the early TRS-80 systems. It was available for the Model One directly from SubLogic before Microsoft ever licensed the concept and name. Never have played any version of Flight Simulator much, or its descendants. Hate airplanes too much -- fixed avionics systems for four years in the USAF (where I saw my first micro -- a guy in my squadron bought an Altair early on and indroduced me to the delights of flipping front panel switches to load paper tape) and realized that "heavier than air" has real meaning: gravity does not forgive. Now, if somebody came out with a Zeppelin Simulator... -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From george.lin at documentum.com Mon Jun 2 20:18:05 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970602121821.00aa4590@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970602181805.00aa6dd0@lion.documentum.com> At 03:58 PM 6/2/97 -0700, you wrote: >I am running out of space. I don't think I could store 2 carloads of >stuff without completely annexing the garage. Where do you put it all? I bring a lot of stuff to my workplace. Some of my co-workers would play Pacman on my Atari 800 (during lunch or after work, that is). Some day, I will talk my employer into donating a room to setup a small museum here. George -- ______________________________ ______________________________ / /\ / /\ / George Lin _/ /\ / Opinions expressed in this _/ /\ / Antique Computer Collector / \/ / message do not necessarily / \/ / http://museum.home.ml.org /\ / reflect my employer's. /\ /_____________________________/ / /_____________________________/ / \_____________________________\/ \_____________________________\/ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ Apple IIe, IIc, Mac 512K, Atari 800, 800XL, 1040ST, Falcon030, VCS, 5200, ColecoVision VGS, Commodore 64, 64C, 128, plus/4, Compaq suitcase PC, Eagle II, Epson HX-20, KayPro II, 4, Nintendo NES, Osborne Executive, TI 99/4A, Timex Sinclair 1000, 1500, TriGem SLT-100, TRS-80 Model I, III, 100, Color Computer 2. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 2 20:45:06 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Wanted: Amiga 500 internal floppy Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2050B7B55@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> This is a bit new for most of this group, but anyone have an internal floppy drive for an Amiga 500? And/or a dead Amiga 500 from which a floppy drive can be scavenged? thanks Kai From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 20:49:35 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Great weekend for old computers! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970602140147.00975870@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > You people make me sick! Mr. I got 42 classic systems from one guy this, > and Ms. I saw 18 fully loaded computers at the thrift shop that!!! I've had > it up to here (imagine a hand held up above the head) with you weasels! Do > any of you send your good fortune / good luck my way? NooOOooOOooOOoo! All > I've seen the last three weekends of garage saleing is this: > > A non-functional Atari 5200 game system and 5 games for $5 USD. System > worked but neither controller did... until a quick visit with Intern > Victorinox to clean the connections... A follow-up visit with Dr. Dremel is > in the works, but I've not had time. > > Altho, the system did come with the trackball controller, and as the SN# of > the controller is 000786, I'm wondering if this item is relatively rare... > > Back to my rant, I finally got up the nerve/time to go visit the Salvation > Army Thrift store on my lunch hour (the only T.S. in my town, AFAIK) and > guess what the sum total of computer-stuffs I saw there: an HP (I think... > no markings) LaserJet drum/toner cartridge. With no price, so they prolly > wanted $8million 'cause they didn't know what it was. And I'm sure it > wouldn't fit in my HPLJ5L (which BTW I paid full price for 'cause it was > the first non-business-owned 5L in town). > > So, for all you "I get 77 like-new classic systems for a penny every > weekend" I have but one thing to say: > :-PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP Merch, I feel your pain. I too went through these same dilemmas. Fortunately my dry spell got rained upon and I am swimming in stuff, but that's besides the point. I guess my point is, move to a big city. That's right. Just pack all your belongings and move to a city with lots of thrift stores and swap meets and flea markets. Then you'll be guaranteed stuff almost every weekend. Do you live in a small town? Where's the next closest big city to you? Here's some suggestions: put an ad out in the local paper: "Wanted: your old useless computers. Will pay $$$" but of course only offer them $5-$10. Go to your local schools and ask them if they have any old junk useless computers they don't want. Contact local businesses and ask if they have any old computers they can't use anymore and offer them a few bucks. Get the word out among friends, associates and colleagues that you collect old computers. You may get some leads that way. Look at it this way, I was reading an old Creative Computing issue today, and it covered all the current systems of the time. It said there were about 3 million TI/99-4a's produced each year that it was in production. There were probably an equal number of VIC-20s, Atari x00's, etc. There were considerable amounts of other systems as well. Millions of Apples of all types, TRS-80s, you name it. These computers are tucked away in the basements, closets and attics of America. The trick is to come up with clever ways to search them out. By advertising or by word of mouth, you're sure to get at least a trickle of people who are willing to free up some space and make a 5 or 10 in the process. The reason we spoiled people get so much is because we live in hi-tech areas. Shit, I'm 40 minutes away from the silicon valley. There's probably a billion old computers tucked away in little nooks and cranny's all over this area. I just gotta find them. Usually when I end up going to someone's place to pick one system up, there's usually a few or 5 or 10 more that he was about to throw out anyway, and they end up becoming mine. One day, I kid you not, between a guy who gave me a bunch of stuff and a thrift store raid, I came home with about 630 pounds of computers. That's right, I weighed it all just to comprehend the magnitude of the feat I had accomplished of getting all that stuff home in one load. Anyway, I don't know how this is supposed to make you feel any better but I think the moral of the story is: PERSIST! Your mother lode will come. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 21:24:06 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > It was me. My wife still thinks I am the only one who collects this kind > of junk. She goes along with it because it is not very expensive and > she gets to play games on some of the machines. (I think that she has > logged more time on our vectrex than I have.) > > I am running out of space. I don't think I could store 2 carloads of > stuff without completely annexing the garage. Where do you put it all? So far my wife has been supportive, but I've had to come up with some pretty clever white lies and quick thinking lately to explain away my occasional ATM withdrawals (we're supposed to be saving money, and its hard to explain to a woman that saving computers transcends the silly concept of saving money). The worst she has done is threatened to get a public storage facility, which I am against because it would only cost more money (money that can be spent saving more computers) and would mean I'd have to go somewhere else to play with my machines. Plus they'd get lonely. I'm having space problems myself. I built a 4 level, 5'x4' shelf but it got used up right away. Now I'm going to build another shelf along another wall in my garage which should tide me over for, oh, maybe a month or two at the rate I'm going. I'm thinking about building a nice storage shed in the back, complete with electrical outlets, workbench and insulation to keep the babies nice and cozy. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 21:27:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Some more finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970602171645.00a9d120@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > For many years, I thought Microsoft released Flight Simulator as their only > game. I was wrong. I found a game that Microsoft released for TRS-80 > Level 1 BASIC named Microsoft Olympic Decathlon. The game is on tape. The > manual is copyright 1980. It has the old Microsoft logo on it. This is one of the first games I remember playing on an Apple ][. I still have this game. It's great but it wreaks havoc on your keyboard (you have to alternately jam on keys in order to run in the running events...very tiresome on the fingers). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 2 22:08:22 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > > > It was me. My wife still thinks I am the only one who collects this kind > > of junk. She goes along with it because it is not very expensive and > > she gets to play games on some of the machines. (I think that she has > > logged more time on our vectrex than I have.) Nope. There have to be more than a few out there. A few months to a year ago I would see stuff at thrift shops and think about whether I wanted it for a week or two before going back for it. Now it's gone the next day. To tell you the truth, I think it's Kai running around with his GPS tracking down 30 thrift stores in a weekend ;) > So far my wife has been supportive, but I've had to come up with some > pretty clever white lies and quick thinking lately to explain away my > occasional ATM withdrawals (we're supposed to be saving money, and its > hard to explain to a woman that saving computers transcends the silly > concept of saving money). I actually put $60 per month into my budget for old computers. I have to because it would be far to easy to spend $200 a month! > The worst she has done is threatened to get a > public storage facility, which I am against because it would only cost > more money (money that can be spent saving more computers) and would mean > I'd have to go somewhere else to play with my machines. Plus they'd get > lonely. I'm having space problems myself. I built a 4 level, 5'x4' > shelf but it got used up right away. Now I'm going to build another > shelf along another wall in my garage which should tide me over for, oh, > maybe a month or two at the rate I'm going. I'm thinking about building > a nice storage shed in the back, complete with electrical outlets, > workbench and insulation to keep the babies nice and cozy. Try this: For the last 8 months I've been living between here in the Seattle area and Central California with no actual place of my own. My computers have been in storage or in my car, or in my parents' garage, friends' closets... What it comes down to is that I haven't really had access to most of my computers for almost a year. I'll actually have my own place again next week and it will have an unused room. A big room. A room where I can hide my social problem from the rest of the world ;). One of my favorite computer stories: A couple years ago I was having a party at my apartment with a bunch of my friends. One of them who had not been over before asked where the bathroom was. I told him back door on the right. A moment later from the back of the hall we hear him yell, "Good God! You're a geek!". Funny enough, but everyone else simultaneously yelled, "Wrong door!" in response. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 22:34:14 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > Try this: For the last 8 months I've been living between here in the > Seattle area and Central California with no actual place of my own. > My computers have been in storage or in my car, or in my parents' > garage, friends' closets... What it comes down to is that I haven't > really had access to most of my computers for almost a year. I'll > actually have my own place again next week and it will have an unused > room. A big room. A room where I can hide my social problem from the > rest of the world ;). I used to have it this way until the wife moved into my house and my life and began dictating what rooms get used for what purposes. Now I have to argue just to keep my computers in my garage. Even proposing silly ideas like building a storage shed gets a cold stare. One day my computers in a very cheezy B-movie-esque fashion will come alive go after my wife for not respecting them. :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon Jun 2 23:10:09 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Epson HX20 Manuals... Message-ID: OK, lately, I have been placed in a sort of dilemna... Since my post on a IIe that I had aquired (where I mentioned also getting HX20 manuals and tapes) I have literally been deluged with e-mails/posts from people asking for MY MANUALS ;) I contacted my aunt (the donater of said items) and learned that she still had the HX20 lying in the basement. ("You want THAT one too?") Since I now have a use for these manuals, here is my best solution to all you manual-less HX owners out there. For the greater good of the horribly addicted old and crappy computer collectors, I will grudgingly go to my nearest copying center and make copies (bound if desired) of my HX manuals available to you for cost. I know this is not the best/cheapest solution but I am trying not to play favorites here; this way everyone can be happy (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) and I can keep my manuals :) Anyone who is interested, feel free to contact me. A NOTE!!! Each manual (there are 2, parts 1 and 2 of course) weighs in at about 250+ pages each so that is something you might want to consider before agreeing to a copy; please don't waste my time, or yours... LeS more@crazy.rutgers.edu From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 2 23:18:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Epson HX20 Manuals... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > I contacted my aunt (the donater of said items) and learned that she still > had the HX20 lying in the basement. ("You want THAT one too?") Since I > now have a use for these manuals, here is my best solution to all you > manual-less HX owners out there. Congratulations! Another HX-20 resurrected! These things are starting to come out of the woodwork. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jun 3 02:47:19 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706030747.IAA08922@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> In message you write: > > I actually put $60 per month into my budget for old computers. I have > to because it would be far to easy to spend $200 a month! I have tried budgeting, but there is always that special rare machine that becomes available and I have to break the budget. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jun 3 02:51:41 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706030751.IAA08971@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> In message you write: > > The worst she has done is threatened to get a > public storage facility, which I am against because it would only cost > more money (money that can be spent saving more computers) and would mean > I'd have to go somewhere else to play with my machines. I have looked into storage a few times but over here in the UK I have found it too expensive as it all seems geared up to short term leases to store furniture etc. while moving house. > Plus they'd get lonely. :-) -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jun 3 05:36:47 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706031036.LAA12294@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> > I used to have it this way until the wife moved into my house and my life > and began dictating what rooms get used for what purposes. Now I have to > argue just to keep my computers in my garage. Even proposing silly ideas > like building a storage shed gets a cold stare. One day my computers in > a very cheezy B-movie-esque fashion will come alive go after my wife for > not respecting them. :) It does seem that wives/partners are quite understanding of our hobby/ obsession. My wife, Michelle, has her moments of support when she has got me some of the best machines in my collection, and other moments of 'you are not bringing another computer into this house.' The later is usually broken when I bring home a really rare machine and I go on about how good the design was or how bad it was and that it was only sold for a short time. I find that the longer I leave the machine(s) temporarily dumped on the sofa the worse things get, especially if friends come around and there is nowhere to sit :-) We have just finished converting our loft into an office, as the previous office is now used as a nursery for our baby girl. The problem is that even though this new office is bigger I have had to move up all the computers I had hidden around the house into it. You cannot see the carpet anymore :-( (I will have to post a picture I took on my web site so you can play spot the computer.) I have started to trade/swap machines lately, either selling some of my duplicates or trading large machines for smaller ones. Space is becoming so much of an issue that I am thinking I may have to start specialising and re-distribute some of the larger things I have. These are computers I have saved from a skip but never used through my childhood or my working life. Here I am talking about the PDP stuff and maybe CPM machines. (It's funny as a kid I drooled over having a Superbrain with dual Z80s and 64K of memory. I only ever saw pictures of them in adverts and when I got one recently I was a little taken a back with how big they are.) Do other people specialise? Personally I think I would find it hard because I hate to leave computers at boot sales etc. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 3 12:41:03 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <199706031036.LAA12294@mailgate.motiv.co.uk>; from "Kevan Heydon" at Jun 03, 97 11:36 am Message-ID: <199706031141.23911@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > It does seem that wives/partners are quite understanding of our hobby/ > obsession. My wife, Michelle, has her moments of support when she has Yes, I often wonder why my parents (who get to store most of my small collection) put up with it. It must be the only hall in the world to contain 4 minicomputers and a couple of workstations... > got me some of the best machines in my collection, and other moments of > 'you are not bringing another computer into this house.' The later is I get exactly the same reaction. One minute it's 'Why on earth do you want _another_ workstation', the next it's 'I've got you a Tektronix colour terminal that was being thrown out - I assume you want it'. > usually broken when I bring home a really rare machine and I go on about > how good the design was or how bad it was and that it was only sold for > a short time. I find that the longer I leave the machine(s) temporarily > dumped on the sofa the worse things get, especially if friends come > around and there is nowhere to sit :-) Sit? We ran out of places to sit years ago..... > Do other people specialise? Personally I think I would find it hard > because I hate to leave computers at boot sales etc. I tried to specialise - in workstations and minicomputers. But although I can easily resist buying 1980's home micros (most of them are somewhat uninteresting to a hardware hacker, since a lot of the logic is hidden in a ULA), I find it very difficult not to buy unusual micros, prototypes, 1-of-a-kind machines, etc. So the specialisation didn't really work... > > -- > Kevan -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 3 07:26:41 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <199706031036.LAA12294@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Kevan Heydon wrote: > It does seem that wives/partners are quite understanding of our hobby/ > obsession. My wife, Michelle, has her moments of support when she has > got me some of the best machines in my collection, and other moments of > 'you are not bringing another computer into this house.' The later is > usually broken when I bring home a really rare machine and I go on about > how good the design was or how bad it was and that it was only sold for > a short time. I find that the longer I leave the machine(s) temporarily > dumped on the sofa the worse things get, especially if friends come > around and there is nowhere to sit :-) It is due to my fiancee that we have the TI-99 and the Atari ST equipment, the former three (one still in shrink-wrap) because Lisa credits a cassette-based algebra tutorial on her original TI-99/4A with getting her through the maths requirement for her nursing degree, the latter (a 1040 and a 520) because she's musically inclined and we got them for their MIDI features. She's also the one that loves cute little PDA-type devices, so we've got gear from HP, Casio, Sharp, Psion and one or two others to be the classic in a decade or so. All of the Tandy and AT&T and Sun equipment I take full responsibility for, as well as the various non-classic Intel boxes for hacking Linux. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From groberts at mitre.org Tue Jun 3 10:41:54 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603114154.007e3740@mail90> At 12:10 AM 6/3/97 -0400, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > OK, lately, I have been placed in a sort of dilemna... I have literally > been deluged with e-mails/posts from people asking for MY MANUALS ... > I will grudgingly go to my nearest copying center and make > copies .. perhaps it is time for this group to stand up and begin to truly capture the history and documentation of classic computing - and to do it on line. for starters this means capturing manuals which are all too often lost first. next (and more challenging legally) is software. we could use some solid legal advice on what can and can't be posted but i find it hard to believe that anyone could object to putting scanned-in versions of most older manuals on the internet since: 1) many of these companies are no longer in the business, and 2) even if they were they would probably themselves make such a service available or welcome a third party to do it. i think all we really would have to do is make sure the original copyright notification was preserved in the on-line version. i realize system software is a tougher issue but perhaps we could start with the manuals. so we would need a home location (Bill Whitson: how about the "Archives" section of the classic computer web page you've set up? http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html) and some folks with scanners who can get things into HTML format (and others? .doc? .pdf?) and upload. comments on this proposal? are there already similar archives out there? - (i know of some Commodore ones), if so we should point to them. I'm not aware of any one location to go to find classic computer documentation, and judging from the traffic on this list it's sorely needed. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 3 10:41:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <199706030747.IAA08922@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Kevan Heydon wrote: > > In message n.edu>you write: > > > > I actually put $60 per month into my budget for old computers. I have > > to because it would be far to easy to spend $200 a month! > > I have tried budgeting, but there is always that special rare machine > that becomes available and I have to break the budget. This is the kind of hobby where a budget just can't work, because there's always going to be that one machine that you absolutely cannot pass up. And its not like you can just say "Oh I'll wait until next month" because it won't be there next month...it'll be in some other collector's closet. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 3 10:46:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <199706031036.LAA12294@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Kevan Heydon wrote: > I have started to trade/swap machines lately, either selling some of my > duplicates or trading large machines for smaller ones. Space is I've begun to do the same myself. It was an alternative to a budget. I created a "hobby" account which is just a virtual account in Quicken. Any money I make off of selling anything within my hobby I put into the account to go towards future purchases. I started to realize I don't need 4 TI-99/4a's and 5 VIC-20s, etc. Of course, if a find at a swap meet warrants, I can always borrow from another account to cover the purchase until I can sell off other stuff. :) > Do other people specialise? Personally I think I would find it hard > because I hate to leave computers at boot sales etc. I collect whatever I can find that I don't have, but so far my collection is 95% micro's. I guess I haven't been looking in the right places for mini's. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jun 3 11:19:43 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Yet another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706031619.RAA20686@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> In message you write: > This is the kind of hobby where a budget just can't work, because there's > always going to be that one machine that you absolutely cannot pass up. > And its not like you can just say "Oh I'll wait until next month" because > it won't be there next month...it'll be in some other collector's closet. ... and while it is good that it will have gone to another collector it not quite the same as having the machine yourself and be able to play with it. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From pcoad at crl.com Tue Jun 3 11:14:28 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Trackstar 128 (RE: Name those cards game) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bill, > > And to give a little more info... I've maintained a FAQ on the > TrackStar for the last four or five years. You can take a peek at > it at http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/faqs/ts.faq > > It doesn't actually have a whole lot to say, but does tell you where > to get software and docs if you need them. I found your FAQ while doing a dejanews on TrackStar. The only reason I haven't requested the disk and docs is I'm currently trying to decide if I REALLY want to collect Apple II stuff. There is still has pretty active community and quite a few collectors. As someone has noted recently trying to specialize is difficult, but since time and space are limited I need to be more selective in what I add to my permanent collection. I'll likely offer up these parts my collection up for trade in a month or two. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pcoad at crl.com Tue Jun 3 11:58:00 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: 3B1 free to good home (fwd) Message-ID: Found this in comp.sys.3b1. This is a nice machine, and the price is right if you are in the Los Angeles area. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- AT&T UNIX PC (3B1) 1MB RAM 40MB Hard drive Manuals OS, GNU development tools Good condition. Free to good home. You pick up (Los Angeles area) or pay for shipping. Send e-mail to jim@lutefisk.jetcafe.org. Jim -- Jim Larson jim@lutefisk.jetcafe.org -- end of forwarded message -- From jonathan at holly.ninja.ml.org Tue Jun 3 18:02:54 1997 From: jonathan at holly.ninja.ml.org (Jonathan Hunter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Apple II bits (North-West UK) Message-ID: <2D278BC01BF@holly.ninja.ml.org> Hi! I have a small collection of Apple II bits that I'd like to get rid of. From memory, I have 3 cases (2 with keyboards inside, and one with a motherboard as well), one original cardboard box (with a lovely picture of somebody's hand pointing at the machine!), and 3 or 4 (non-original :-) cardboard boxes full of hardware and software. The hardware mainly consists of unidentified expansion cards and cables, from what I remember. If anybody who is vaguely local to Manchester, UK, wants any of this, they're welcome to it - I am by no means an Apple expert, and this stuff is just taking up space. In most cases I've not even powered it up - it was rescued from the Robotics lab at my old school, when they decided they would throw it all away! I will happily go down and look through the boxes if anybody wants me to have a go at identifying the bits contained therein. Let me know if you are vaguely interested! ___ _ _ ___ _ _| (_)(\)(-) | (-)(-)(\) From pcoad at crl.com Tue Jun 3 12:37:04 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: electronics/junk/computer sale June 14 Mountain View, CA In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970602171645.00a9d120@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On June 14 in Mountain View CA, there will be an junk/electronics sale. The location will be at Haltek (1062 Linda Vista Ave (Shoreline exit off 101)). I believe that this sale will have stuff from 3 different stores. If I remember correctly, things start at 9am and will run until 4pm. (Could someone nearby call (415 969-0510) and confirm these times?) I wanted to let the people on the list know about the sale, and possibly get together with anyone who can make it. Anyone who is interested in the get together let me know. There is a pretty good Mexican place nearby. I'm not associated with Haltek, I just shop there. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue Jun 3 12:44:39 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970603114154.007e3740@mail90> Message-ID: I would agree with this as well, but it WILL be hard to find someone who has the space/time to scan a 500+ page manual... Les From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 3 13:07:56 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2050D3D3E@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Agreed... I have a scanner w/OCR and I'm perfectly willing to scan critical pages such as DIP switch/jumper settings, etc. but 500 pages of general usage instructions is a bit much. Kai > ---------- > From: Mr. Self Destruct[SMTP:more@camlaw.rutgers.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 1997 10:44 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: capturing legacy documentation > > > I would agree with this as well, but it WILL be hard to find someone > who > has the space/time to scan a 500+ page manual... > > Les > > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jun 3 13:46:28 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Computer/Electronics Swap Meet - June 7th, Tigard Oregon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Spring edition of the CP/M-UG Swap Meet will occur on Saturday June 7th, on Rose Festival Parade day just as always. It will be held in the lower level of the Senior Citizens Center on Omera, just south of the Tigard City Hall on Hall Blvd. (off of Hwy. 99) As always, it's Free, Easy, and Non-Fattening! (except perhaps to your wallet or garage, depening on your approach!) Bring your Junk, your Treasures, and your Wallet! The only rule is... Leave Nothing Behind! (NO garbage service!) Address: 8815 S.W. Omera (Just south of Fanno Creek on Hall Blvd.) Tigard, OR. Hours: 0800 to 1400 or whenever the good stuff runs out! (8am to 2pm for the layfolk) Fees: No charge! (we pass the hat for contributions) NOTE: Tailgating is encouraged! Some of the best deals are made in the parking lot! See you there! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jun 3 14:44:30 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970603114154.007e3740@mail90> Message-ID: Hi. This is exactly what the ClassicCmp web/FTP sites are for. The only real reason things haven't appeared there yet is that I'm still in home limbo and don't have the ability to haul out my stuff and start scanning. FYI, my mother is a librarian and specializes in copyright law. What more could I ask for ;). After a few chats with her we've come up with the following criteria for posting old docs/software. 1. The company which marketed the product is out of business and it's assets were not purchased by another company. 2. A contact for the original company cannot be located. 3. The out of production product is no longer sold as a new product. 4. There is no reasonable expectation that posting such materials could affect the profits of an existing entity. 5. There is no reasonable expactation that such materials could be sold for profit. 6. The original source and copyright are noted specifically. Also, there will be a statement that we have not received permission for use but that this use is not for profit and serves only to aid in the preservation of old equipment. There will also be a statement that the materials will be removed immediately at the request of a legitimate representative of the original publisher. Even given all of this, there is still a possibility that I could be sued so I'll be very cautious about what I allow on the site. The likelyhood of legal action is slim and not likely to be successful, but I don't really want to waste time or money going to court. As things currently stand, I will take submissions of software and documentation that meet the above criteria. > so we would need a home location (Bill Whitson: how about the "Archives" > section of the classic computer web page you've set up? > http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html) and some folks with scanners > who can get things into HTML format (and others? .doc? .pdf?) and upload. > comments on this proposal? are there already similar archives out there? - > (i know of some Commodore ones), if so we should point to them. I'm not > aware of any one location to go to find classic computer documentation, and > judging from the traffic on this list it's sorely needed. From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 3 15:08:16 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > 1. The company which marketed the product is out of business and it's > assets were not purchased by another company. > 2. A contact for the original company cannot be located. > 3. The out of production product is no longer sold as a new product. > 4. There is no reasonable expectation that posting such materials > could affect the profits of an existing entity. > 5. There is no reasonable expactation that such materials could be > sold for profit. > 6. The original source and copyright are noted specifically. In the case of the HX-20 manuals, for example, the last time I checked Epson was still corporately breathing. The rights to CP/M at last report were transferred from Novell (purchaser of Digital Research) to Caldera, the Linux company that also has the rights to DR-DOS. The fun part is, all of the _patents_ older than ?1980? have expired -- you can copy any of the hardware you want, as long as it isn't based on copyrighted schematics or contain ROMs with copyrighted code. But copyrights now last at least 75 years (unless our beloved governments extend it still farther, a subject of occasional debate with a crippling effect on the Gutenberg Project. > Also, there will be a statement that we have not received permission for > use but that this use is not for profit and serves only to aid in the > preservation of old equipment. There will also be a statement that the > materials will be removed immediately at the request of a legitimate > representative of the original publisher. With that statement, asses should be adequately covered by the "Fair Use" provisions of the copyright laws provided the other steps have been taken. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jun 3 15:46:25 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In the case of the HX-20 manuals, for example, the last time I checked > Epson was still corporately breathing. The rights to CP/M at last report > were transferred from Novell (purchaser of Digital Research) to Caldera, > the Linux company that also has the rights to DR-DOS. In the case of Epson - an e-mail requesting permission to duplicate such an old manual might be successful. CP/M supposedly will become freely distributable someday when Caldera finds the code or some such silly excuse. (No flames on this please - I pop into comp.os.cpm on occasion). Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 3 15:58:42 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > CP/M supposedly will become freely distributable someday when Caldera > finds the code or some such silly excuse. (No flames on this please - > I pop into comp.os.cpm on occasion). Caldera has announced the attention to make source code for both CP/M and DR-DOS available under terms similar to the FSF Gnu Copyleft in the near future. I await it anxiously. However, that may not apply to the documentation, separately copyrighted. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 3 16:59:29 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at Jun 3, 97 01:46:25 pm Message-ID: <9706032059.AA10528@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 895 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970603/7c8dfede/attachment-0001.ksh From starling at umr.edu Tue Jun 3 16:18:59 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? Message-ID: <199706032118.QAA01634@saucer.cc.umr.edu> I'm going to be moving my collection a couple hundred miles from Austin, TX to Tyler, TX. I'm wondering if anyone has any packing or moving suggestions (packing material, special treatment of media, etc). The stuff is going to be moved by a moving company (Atlas probably) but I'm doing much of the packing ahead of time. I'm seriously considering moving the oddball monitors and magnetic media myself. I don't trust them with these easily harmed things and if they're damaged, they have little or no reimbursement value, but are difficult to find again. Anyone have any magical tips on packing and moving? chris From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jun 3 07:28:20 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Current want list Message-ID: Here is a current want-list in case anyone happens aross any of it or has any of the stuff still stashed away and would like to part with it: 1) Mini-expander for Mattel Aquarius, as well as the data cable for the datasette and any software. 2) Commodore 1531 datasette drive for the C-16 or Plus/4 3) Speech Editor cartridge for the TI-99/4a 4) floppy controller, with or without drive, for a CoCo-3. If anyone knows the pinouts for the data cable for the Aquarius datasette, that'd also be a huge help. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jun 3 07:34:34 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: <199706032118.QAA01634@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On 04-Jun-97, starling@umr.edu wrote: >I'm going to be moving my collection a couple hundred miles from Austin, >TX to Tyler, TX. I'm wondering if anyone has any packing or moving >suggestions (packing material, special treatment of media, etc). >Anyone have any magical tips on packing and moving? Chris, North American moved my collection without any problems a few months ago, but needless to say, I certainly was worried about it. If you're packing things yourself, I'd suggest wrapping stuff in bubblewrap if you can. It seems to do a great job at protecting things, even against the little nicks and such. I tend to wrap it 4-5 times around the part to make a nice bundle, well covered on all sides. It's also how I ship stuff..with the box filled out with the styrofoam 'popcorn'. Jeff -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 3 17:31:14 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: <199706032118.QAA01634@saucer.cc.umr.edu> from "starling@umr.edu" at Jun 3, 97 04:18:59 pm Message-ID: <9706032131.AA05453@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1644 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970603/7e8c9a0e/attachment-0001.ksh From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jun 3 16:55:41 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: <199706032118.QAA01634@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: Call a few shipping places and ask if they have a Sealed Air foam packing machine. I used to work for ElectroRent (a big computer rental company) and they shipped machines all over the world with very little loss using the stuff. I personally had boxes that had been absolutely destroyed during shipping (square box was delivered more or less spherical) and the equipment was just fine. Probably a little pricey, but also probably worth it for the rarer stuff. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 3 17:11:49 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Software For Trade/Want list Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2050E5DA1@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Okay, enough hardware, it's time for a software trade list! Software wanted: - Apple DOS 3.3 - Apricot F2 DOS - Cromemco CP/M on 8" for System 3 - Microsoft Adventure (floppy for TRS-80, Apple II or PC) - Ithaca InterSystems CP/M, any format - TI 99/4a Disk Manager II cartridge - Apple /// Apple II Emulator Diskette - /// EZ Pieces - Anything for Spectravideo SV-3x8 Software for trade (all freely distributable to the best of my knowledge; let me know if you know otherwise): - Atari DOS 2.0a on 5.25" - Atari DOS 2.5 on 5.25" - Kaypro II CP/M, WordStar, FileStar, SpellStar on 5.25" - Kaypro 10 CP/M (can make diskette from HD if needed) - North Star NSDOS 2.0 on 5.25" - Jade CP/M 2.2 on 8" - Computer Chef on 8" - Infocom "Suspended" and "Starcrossed" on 8" (these work on an 8080 just fine) - Osborne CP/M on 5.25" - Macintosh System 1.0 (yes, Apple has posted this) - TRS-80 Model 100 floppy drive support diskette Also, while we're talking diskettes, does anyone have a MicroSolutions CompatiCard or a Copy II Option Board they'd be willing to sell? thanks Kai From Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 3 14:25:32 1997 From: Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk (Pete Robinson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970603114154.007e3740@mail90> Message-ID: In article <3.0.1.32.19970603114154.007e3740@mail90>, Glenn Roberts writes >At 12:10 AM 6/3/97 -0400, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: >> OK, lately, I have been placed in a sort of dilemna... I have literally >> been deluged with e-mails/posts from people asking for MY MANUALS ... >> I will grudgingly go to my nearest copying center and make >> copies .. > >perhaps it is time for this group to stand up and begin to truly capture >the history and documentation of classic computing - and to do it on line. >for starters this means capturing manuals which are all too often lost >first. I've been trying to produce command summaries for the 8-bits on my homepage, including links to other manuals, tech refs etc. I've tried scanning and OCR without much success so it's fairly hard going. I'm new to the collecting scene so there's not much there yet. When I'm out "car-booting" I tend to look for the manuals rather than the systems - (I'm mainly interested in the home micros) - the systems themselves are easy to find, the documentation tends to get lost over the years. >comments on this proposal? are there already similar archives out there? - >(i know of some Commodore ones), if so we should point to them. I'm not where's the commodore site? -- Pete Robinson pete@madhippy.demon.co.uk http://www.madhippy.demon.co.uk - 8-bit, faqs, emulators, links, web utilities. From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 3 17:56:59 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: <199706032118.QAA01634@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997 starling@umr.edu wrote: > I'm going to be moving my collection a couple hundred miles from Austin, > TX to Tyler, TX. I'm wondering if anyone has any packing or moving > suggestions (packing material, special treatment of media, etc). > > The stuff is going to be moved by a moving company (Atlas probably) but > I'm doing much of the packing ahead of time. I'm seriously considering You've already covered one of my suggestions, which is start early. By the time the REAL packing begins, you should be done with all your computer stuff. This is what I did. You might want to just move the monitors yourself on moving day, if the drive is not too far. I am fortunate in that where I work we are always shipping just to and fro, so there was abundant free packing materials abound. I would suggest that you go to the many hi-tech companies in Austin and raid their dumpsters for boxes and foam popcorn. The foam popcorn is the most important stuff. If you're lucky, you'll also find anti-static bags. Try to stick your smaller consoles in the bags, then put some foam on the bottom of a box, put in a unit, fill in some foam around and on top, put in another unit, fill in some foam around and on top, etc. This is what I did, and the best part is it made for permanent storage so that when I moved I didn't need to worry about pulling my systems back out and stacking them until I was good and ready. I just recently started opening boxes and made a big mess of my garage, but for 8 months everything was really organized. I moved everything myself, so when it came time to move the computers I did it all in one load of a pickup, and had the luxury of making sure they were treated right. I say as long as you pack everything in popcorn, you're fine. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From groberts at mitre.org Tue Jun 3 20:14:14 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: capturing legacy documentation In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970603114154.007e3740@mail90> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603211414.00805440@mail90> At 08:25 PM 6/3/97 +0100, you wrote: >>comments on this proposal? are there already similar archives out there? - >>(i know of some Commodore ones), if so we should point to them. I'm not > >where's the commodore site? commodore (and Luxor ABC800) manuals: http://cws86.kotakk.fi/Computers/ also ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/cbm/manuals but there are many more (see FAQ posted at news://comp.sys.cbm) - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From gram at terra.cnct.com Tue Jun 3 21:26:31 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Software For Trade/Want list In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2050E5DA1@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Software wanted: > > - Microsoft Adventure (floppy for TRS-80, Apple II or PC) None of your coworkers has a file copy laying around the office? > Software for trade (all freely distributable to the best of my > knowledge; let me know if you know otherwise): > - Infocom "Suspended" and "Starcrossed" on 8" (these work on an 8080 > just fine) We serious Infocom fanatics learned long ago that the main program was a constant on any given platform -- and that that the datafiles worked on _any_ platform if properly transferred. My Tandy 2000 Planetfall and HHGttG datafiles worked fine on my Color Computer. I'm not making fun. (well, you're an MS guy and you're looking for an ancient MS product, I guess I am a little bit.) The key items with those Infocom products are the core program for the platform and _ALL OF THE LITTLE "CLUES" IN THE ORIGINAL PACKAGING_! That stuff I suspect is hen's teeth. Possibly eventually the biggest collectable in the software end, equivalent to early copies of Monopoly and some Milton-Bradley games. (Oh, and all of the Infocom datafiles work just fine with the Linux free core as well.) (And there's a driver for Scott Adams (_NOT_ the guy who does Dilbert) Adventures also.) -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at terra.cnct.com Tue Jun 3 21:37:01 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Try to stick your smaller consoles in the bags, then put some foam on the > bottom of a box, put in a unit, fill in some foam around and on top, put > in another unit, fill in some foam around and on top, etc. This is what > I did, and the best part is it made for permanent storage so that when I > moved I didn't need to worry about pulling my systems back out and > stacking them until I was good and ready. I just recently started > opening boxes and made a big mess of my garage, but for 8 months > everything was really organized. For the love of God, Montressor, _don't forget to label the boxes!_ And I do mean a _full catalog_. As a bibliophile who has moved books in large quantities on several occasions (and Ben Franklin had it right: three moves equals one fire) I know that it can be a hassle when you _really need_ just that one item, and it's in one of the boxes filling _that half_ of the room. All the same size, color, label (front room). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From BigLouS at aol.com Tue Jun 3 22:09:48 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Great weekend for old computers! Message-ID: <970603230921_-161793711@emout18.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-02 13:26:32 EDT, kaikal@MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) writes: > First off, I got two Apple ///+ machines in a thrift store! Anyone have > a copy of SOS for these suckers? If no one has a copy try http://www.allelec.com. They have it with II emulation for $7.95. However their minimum order is $25.00. Lots of Apple and mac stuff available though. Lou From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Jun 3 23:48:16 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer Message-ID: <199706040448.WAA30429@calico.litterbox.com> -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Jun 3 23:54:39 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer Message-ID: <199706040454.WAA30483@calico.litterbox.com> Okay, let's see if I can include the file this time. Sheesh. :) Ok, this isn't exactly a classic computer. It's more the rebirth of a classic in a slick new case (looks like a laptop, but isn't) with a slick new desktop. If you don't think it's appropriate here, I won't be upset if you hit delete. :) I got my Tiger Learning Computer (hereafter TLC) from Pennys today. The outside box was smashed beyond all recognition, but the inner box, which only touched the outer one in two spots, was intact, and the computer undamaged. Inside the inner box was the actual retail box, with the pictures on it, the "Apple Technology" symbol on it and so on. It's an eerie feeling opening a brand new computer in retail packaging like that. I haven't done it since I got my Commodore 64, after weeks of waiting for it on backorder at LaBells (aka Best, now extinct) we picked one up at KMart. You C=64 collectors probably experience this all the time, opening a box to find *a computer* inside, ready to plug into the TV and compute. For me, it'd been 13 years. So what does $179 bucks plus shipping (box smashing was, presumably, free) get in 1997? Well, you get a solid feeling little computer that feels remarkably like an early power-book in your hands. You get the "wall wart" power supply. You get 6 cartridges, one of which is your battery-ram "disk", another of which has appleworks 4.3 on it. The rest each have a switch and two applications. They plug (upside down) into slots on either side of the machine. But I'm ahead of myself here. Hookup. Pretty much plug and play, although I did get a chuckle when I noticed that this computer has no RF modulator. Now that everyone owns a VCR with video IN jacks, it's not necessary anymore. So, white wire to audio in, yellow wire to video in, power, flip the VCR input to line in, hit the switch. And smile to myself as it boots up in prodos. Just for a second before the desktop and sound effects load. First annoying thing: The voice that says "Please select an activity" every time you boot. I'm finding I boot a lot. I can tell this is going to irritate me in the long term. I'm not enough of an Apple 2 wizard to know what video mode it came up in. It looks like about 16 colors, and about the resolution of CGA. Not as fine as my old '64 was capable of, but much faster. Using the thing. Ok, I've owned it for about 4 hours now and I have a horrible crick in my neck from lying on the living room floor looking up at the TV, so I haven't even tried all the apps yet. If anyone's interested, let me know, I'll follow up. Loading programs is almost exactly like running them off a floppy, except that you can never boot from the program disk. You have to go to the disk icon on the desktop and tell the tiger to run the program. Not very intuitive, but I'm sure kids will figure it out as fast or faster than I did. Especially if they read the instructions. :) I just expected them to load automatically. My bet is in the next ROM version of the tiger they will. Appleworks 4.3 looks remarkably like it did on my friend's 2E all those years ago, except of course that it's not as sharp on my TV as it was on his apple monitor. I suspect a newer TV directly connected instead of through the VCR would perform better. That failing an old Commodore 1782 monitor should be something to see. Wish I hadn't given mine away. My nostalgia for Apple2 is limited here, like I said, I was a commodore 64 geek. WE didn't have to have disks to boot. (In fact, for the first 3 months I had my 64, I had no storage device at all, so my first programs were short, enjoyed to the point of boredom, and then utterly lost when the computer was powered off.) On the other hand, the odds of the '64 making a comeback like this are slim and none. They never had the educational following. So all in all, it's been a weird experience for me with this little computer. Objectively, it's not a bad little machine at all. The keyboard bites - although it may get better as it gets used/my hands adapt back from Microsoft wave keyboard. The sound is first class - even better than my '64s old SID chip. Graphics are about as good as can be expected on an 8 bit apple 2, except in color. Software is still a little weird - nothing beyond what it came with. Of course, if I can get my hands on a copy of "Kermit, a file transfer protocol" and type in the 83 line basic Kermit so I can communicate with the rest of my systems, I hopefully will be able to run all kinds of a2 software on it. The weird part isn't objective though. Part of me is rejoicing at the idea of this little throwback to the early 80s. I got a little piece of the excitement I had unpacking my 64 the first time unpacking the Tiger. And seeing it abuse my TV into pretending to be a computer monitor, even though it is a little fuzzy, made me smile. This, for me is how computing was. Part of me sits and scoffs at the tiger - and my '64 for that matter - when in the next room I have a lan full of reasonably modern PCs with orders of magnitude more power. Even my quasi-classic GS is head and shoulders above the tiger as a computer. But the tiger has something none of my other machines do. I'm not sure what, to be honest, maybe just nostalgia, maybe not. Anyway, I'm keeping it. Even if I do keep expecting the flip top to have a screen in it. (at least it comes off. :) -Jim -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 4 00:02:45 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: osborne 1 serial number In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970603220245.00707740@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:14 AM 6/2/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Hey, my Osborne 1 has serial number A01284. Can anyone beat that? Sigh... You got me beat. Mine shows A19341. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 4 00:16:43 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > For the love of God, Montressor, _don't forget to label the boxes!_ And I > do mean a _full catalog_. As a bibliophile who has moved books in large Right! I almost forgot. On each box I listed the contents. Like: Apple //e Commodore 64 TI 99/4a etc. On a scarcely related note, has anyone ever seen (or does anyone have) a TI-99/4 (no "a")? I was reading an old issue of Creative Computing and they mentioned the 99/4 in an article about the 4a. They also mentioned a system called the 99/8 (I think it was that) that was built but never released because TI decided to get out of the home computer market. It was a great article about the price wars between TI and Commodore. It talked about how the TI 99/4a started at $1395 and eventually wound its way down to $49 over the course of 2 years in competition with the VIC-20. I'm amazed the 99/4a still has such a following. It was like the Hyundai of the 80s home computer market. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 4 00:23:07 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: <199706040454.WAA30483@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Jim wrote: > The weird part isn't objective though. Part of me is rejoicing at the idea of > this little throwback to the early 80s. I got a little piece of the excitement > I had unpacking my 64 the first time unpacking the Tiger. And seeing it abuse > my TV into pretending to be a computer monitor, even though it is a little > fuzzy, made me smile. This, for me is how computing was. Part of me sits and > scoffs at the tiger - and my '64 for that matter - when in the next room I have > a lan full of reasonably modern PCs with orders of magnitude more power. Even > my quasi-classic GS is head and shoulders above the tiger as a computer. But > the tiger has something none of my other machines do. I'm not sure what, to > be honest, maybe just nostalgia, maybe not. I think its the fact that it has two slots and carthridges, which no apple ever had. The apple was not a carthridge machine, it was a slot machine (er, not Las Vegas style). > Anyway, I'm keeping it. Even if I do keep expecting the flip top to have a > screen in it. (at least it comes off. :) Thanks for a good article. I can't wait to get mine. And just think, you don't have to wait 10 years for it to become a classic. Since its based on the Apple //e, its kinda already a classic. Its a paradox or something. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Wed Jun 4 03:08:57 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Packing Computers Message-ID: <33952299.6E35@oboe.calpoly.edu> I have been shipping computers for a while now with no problem whatsoever. I follow the guidelines already mentioned with a couple twists: Wrap the items in bubble wrap (best) or a plastic bag, anti-static is best. This protects the surfaces and stops the styrofoam from being in direct contact with the plastic on the machine. Keeps foam from getting into the slots, etc. I also notice that the plastic in the cords especially tend to bond with the foam after a while. Popcorn in the bottom. Put the system in. Popcorn on sides and on top. Allow for settling, compress it until it's firm. Seal it up. If putting items on top of each other I'd put a piece of cardboard in between along with a few inches of popcorn just in case things move. This is for shipping. I've shipped lots of stuff packed in a single box without a single casualty. Moving a short distance shouldn't be as much of a big deal but if someone drops a box, you'll be glad you did it. I didn't have any casualties when I moved last year either. I get packing material from a couple sources. A camera shop here gets about 5 big bags a month since all their stuff is fragile. A manufacturer has a big cardboard recycling area where they dump boxes and bubblewrap. If someone is near Mountain View, CA (near where I used to live), I have a great source for tons of this stuff. Email me. Greg PS: I have an Apple IIc & IIe on Auctionweb that are going cheap so far. The IIc is only at $3.25! Even cheap compared to you guy's standards. Shipping is extra though (UPS). Auction ends tomorrow. Apple IIC Computer (photo) Current bid: $3.25 Auction ends on: 06/04/97, 22:48:02 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=znb774144 Apple IIe Computer, Duo Drive, 64K (photo) Current bid: $20.50 Auction ends on: 06/04/97, 22:54:32 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=cjt6509 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 4 08:06:49 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 3, 97 10:23:07 pm Message-ID: <9706041206.AA08482@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 684 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970604/673e060c/attachment-0001.ksh From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 4 08:42:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: <9706041206.AA08482@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > You guys will have to let me step in here and express a few > questions which demonstrate my ignorance of the Tiger Learning > Computer and its attraction: > > 1. Am I correct in assuming that it is impossible to run software > on the Tiger unless it comes in the form of a manufacturer > supplied cartridge? > > 2. Am I correct in assuming that there is no cartridge with Integer > or Applesoft Basic? > > Don't #1 and #2 above pretty much limit the user to running an > incredibly tiny set of software? If so, then isn't the Tiger > little more than a incredibly stunted and dead-ended version of > the Apple II architecture? Sorry folks, maybe the Tiger just > isn't for me... Until someone (me) figures out how to attach a disk drive to it. Will you buy one then? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 4 09:37:40 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:14 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On a scarcely related note, has anyone ever seen (or does anyone have) a > TI-99/4 (no "a")? I was reading an old issue of Creative Computing and I played with one briefly at a computer store in Las Vegas back about 1980. As I recall, it has little rectangular chicklet keys. When I typed in a simple loop to count and display the numbers from one to one hundred and I was able to get there first by counting out loud I gave up on the machine and never looked at one again until I moved in with a TI-99/5A fan five years ago -- and I still don't look at them much, they're Lisa's machines. > they mentioned the 99/4 in an article about the 4a. They also mentioned > a system called the 99/8 (I think it was that) that was built but never There's a description and some pictures of the 99/8 on: > released because TI decided to get out of the home computer market. It TI didn't exactly "decide" to do this. There's a semi-accurate article in the current (June '97) Computer Shopper on the history of the TI-99. I have my own memories of what effect had on the stock prices of companies in the small computer business back when the word got out that TI was losing money on every machine sold hoping to make up the difference in overpriced peripherals (which of course, third parties were able to provide cheaper). > was a great article about the price wars between TI and Commodore. It > talked about how the TI 99/4a started at $1395 and eventually wound its > way down to $49 over the course of 2 years in competition with the > VIC-20. I'm amazed the 99/4a still has such a following. It was like > the Hyundai of the 80s home computer market. That last year or so, it was more like the Yugo. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jun 4 10:14:29 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 4, 97 06:42:58 am Message-ID: <199706041514.JAA32707@calico.litterbox.com> Actually the tiger has a ram based storage cartrige which connects up just like a regular prodos volume. You could store whatever programs you want on it. Also teh Tiger does speak Applesoft basic. They even mention this in the instructions. I called Tiger this morning, and they tell me the "Internet Cartrige" won't be available until the end of summer, and that Delphi will be the provider it's designed for. I'm going to go out on a limb and hope that the Internet Cartrige will have some means of transfering programs into the Tiger as well. Also, as I said, I intend to set my Tiger up with Kermit and do serial downloads. While I was talking to Tiger this morning, I also asked if there was a software developer's kit for it. The rep didn't seem to know what I was talking about, so I'll have to write some e-mail to the company. My pessamistic suspicion is that Tiger won't support any development but their own (which they license from classic A2 companies). I hope I'm wrong here, as I'd love to see both the surviving a2 community doing new development for the Tiger as well as the tiger stuff - especially the internet package - find it's way back to the apple2 world. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Wed Jun 4 10:33:57 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706041533.KAA22535@fudge.uchicago.edu> Sam Ismail said, > On a scarcely related note, has anyone ever seen (or does anyone have) a > TI-99/4 (no "a")? I was reading an old issue of Creative Computing and > they mentioned the 99/4 in an article about the 4a. I saw (and used for a few minutes) one of these, years and years ago (1984?) at a meeting of the TI Hoosier Users Group in Indianapolis. The main differences from the 99/4A were: * chicklet keys, and no lowercase -- the punctuation marks and cursor motions that you get with the FCTN key on a 4A were produced with the Shift key instead. * older video chip -- the TMS9918 instead of 18A. I think the difference here was that it didn't have the 256x192 bitmap mode, only the character-cell modes. * monitor required. Market pressures were part of the reason the TI price dropped so much, but the major reason was that TI couldn't get FCC approval for an RF modulator in time for the release of the 99/4 so you had to buy it with a monitor. They were approved by the time of the 99/4a so you could use it with your TV and get by with a much cheaper system. I think the Peripheral Expansion Box also came out at the time of the 99/4A, ending the need to string endless piles of boxes off the side of the keyboard if you wanted the disk drive, speech synthesizer, or whatever. > They also mentioned a system called the 99/8 (I think it was that) > that was built but never released because TI decided to get out of > the home computer market. There was also a TI-99/2, with rubber keys and black-and-white video, meant to compete with the Timex/Sinclair segment of the market. It never got released because the prices of the higher-end machines plummeted and squeezed it out of its price range. eric From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 4 10:40:19 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > You guys will have to let me step in here and express a few > > questions which demonstrate my ignorance of the Tiger Learning > > Computer and its attraction: > > > > 1. Am I correct in assuming that it is impossible to run software > > on the Tiger unless it comes in the form of a manufacturer > > supplied cartridge? > > > > 2. Am I correct in assuming that there is no cartridge with Integer > > or Applesoft Basic? > > > > Don't #1 and #2 above pretty much limit the user to running an > > incredibly tiny set of software? If so, then isn't the Tiger > > little more than a incredibly stunted and dead-ended version of > > the Apple II architecture? Sorry folks, maybe the Tiger just > > isn't for me... > > Until someone (me) figures out how to attach a disk drive to it. Will > you buy one then? Actually, after pondering this a bit, I take this answer back and submit the following: Why? Because it's the first new Apple ][ based product since the late 80's. It's based on the stuff of legends...I'm sure somewhere inside it has traces of Woz. It wasn't meant to be useful as an Apple ][. It's meant to be a toy for kids to learn about computers on. This could be any old toy with any old CPU like the many that are out there, but it's not. It's based on an Apple //e and, if you *can* get the programs on it, will run any apple // software. For something that's meant as a toy, that's pretty cool. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 4 11:13:36 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Why? Because it's the first new Apple ][ based product since the late > 80's. It's based on the stuff of legends...I'm sure somewhere inside it > has traces of Woz. It wasn't meant to be useful as an Apple ][. It's > meant to be a toy for kids to learn about computers on. This could be > any old toy with any old CPU like the many that are out there, but it's > not. It's based on an Apple //e and, if you *can* get the programs on > it, will run any apple // software. For something that's meant as a toy, > that's pretty cool. So I guess this means I'll have to figure out a way to stuff LDOS into a ROM and do the same trick with a TRS-80 clone. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 4 12:11:52 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 4, 97 08:40:19 am Message-ID: <9706041611.AA10495@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1220 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970604/ae00c663/attachment-0001.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jun 4 11:21:16 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 4, 97 08:40:19 am Message-ID: <199706041621.KAA00258@calico.litterbox.com> Since my previous message appears to have wound up in the bit bucket, I'll say again. 1. the Tiger does speak Applesoft basic 2. I expect the internet cartrige to have some means of downloading software. 3. Once I get Kermit working on the Tiger I expect to be able to load apple2 software on the tiger at will, space on the ram cartridge permitting. 4. According to Tiger there's no software development kit. I have to dig deeper for this. 5. I have a fairly slick assembler in applesoft basic I'll have to try on the tiger. Is that programmable enough? :) -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 4 12:18:03 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: <199706041621.KAA00258@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim" at Jun 4, 97 10:21:16 am Message-ID: <9706041618.AA25832@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 280 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970604/0a7282e8/attachment-0001.ksh From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 4 11:33:34 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: <9706041611.AA10495@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > But for a fraction of the cost of the "toy" version, anyone can get > a real Apple ][+ or //e, with expansion slots, drives, etc. I'd much > rather give my kids a machine that is readily expanded and hacked on. > Wasn't this the appeal of the Apple ][ in the first place? It was, > at least for me. I suppose there was a large fraction of people who > never did anything other than run "canned" software on their Apple, > and I suppose for them the expandibility and accesibility didn't > mean much. The Tiger might suit their desires just fine, but the > Tiger just isn't for me. But it's not meant to suit you, Tim, for the reasons you mention above. You're a hacker, and you came from the Apple world. You know what a real apple can do and you're comparing the TLC to an Apple. You have to look at it from the perspective that it is a kids toy that also happens to use Apple software. Think about it. You go into your local Walmart or Target and head over to the toy section. There you see a bunch of electronic gizmo toys for kids, some of them being mock computers with LCD displays that have menus for the different programs you can run. Then right next to them is a toy laptop that boots ProDOS. Pretty cool. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From smj at U.Arizona.EDU Wed Jun 4 15:47:02 1997 From: smj at U.Arizona.EDU (Susan M Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Packing Computers In-Reply-To: <33952299.6E35@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: Absolutely, positively do NOT pack a computer in peanuts without first putting the computer in something like a plastic garbage bag! I've got a used one I bought which was shippped to me packed in peanuts - no plastic bag (sigh). It took awhile but I finally got all the peanuts out of the computer and then out of the floppy drive. Now all I need to do is re-align the drive and hope the drive will then work. For lack of anything else, I once used some insulation material (steel wool stuff, I think). Put the computer or printer first in a plastic garbage bag, then wrap with the insulation. It worked just fine. Not the best stuff in the world to use, I would think, due to the minute fibers in the insulation, but better than nothing. Susan From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 10:03:06 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On a scarcely related note, has anyone ever seen (or does anyone have) a > TI-99/4 (no "a")? I haven't seen one, but I've heard a lot about it. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find one single picture of the thing on-line. :-( > They also mentioned a system called the 99/8 (I think it was that) that > was built but never released because TI decided to get out of the home > computer market. Yup, seen photos of this beast. It could take up to 15 MB of RAM and had built-in hardware to run P-code. The Machine Room has entries for both the TI-99/4 and TI-99/8 (although the /4 has no picture). The URL is: http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~alexios/MACHINE-ROOM/ Rich Polivka's WWW page has information on both of these machines (I based the TI-99/8 Machine Room entry on his respective page): http://w3.gwis.com/~polivka/994apg.html --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 4 21:12:17 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Packing Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Susan M Johnson wrote: > For lack of anything else, I once used some insulation material (steel > wool stuff, I think). Put the computer or printer first in a plastic I _assume_ you mean fiberglass wool. Steel wool has an insulation R-factor that is real close to zero, I suspect. (Hey, I'm not a professional in that line, but I have installed a few square yards of the pink stuff in my time.) -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From transit at primenet.com Wed Jun 4 21:57:13 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Moving my Collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > On a scarcely related note, has anyone ever seen (or does anyone have) a > > TI-99/4 (no "a")? > > I haven't seen one, but I've heard a lot about it. Unfortunately, I can't > seem to find one single picture of the thing on-line. :-( Back around 1982, the local computer store in my town was trying to unload one of these (complete with monitor, disk drive and most of the cartridges) for about $1000. (I already had a TI 99/4A, but with no peripherals, except for the modulator and cassette recorder). Those extras would have been nice, but, as an unprosperous high school student at the time, not forthcoming . . . > From transit at primenet.com Wed Jun 4 21:58:14 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Packing Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Susan M Johnson wrote: > > > For lack of anything else, I once used some insulation material (steel > > wool stuff, I think). Put the computer or printer first in a plastic > > I _assume_ you mean fiberglass wool. Steel wool has an insulation > R-factor that is real close to zero, I suspect. Steel wool also conducts electricity--it would be bad news if any of it happened to get inside any electrical equipment. > From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 4 22:00:31 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: MACHINE ROOM Message-ID: Oh yeah, it's at http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~alexios/MACHINE-ROOM Go there now! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 4 21:59:48 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Alexios' MACHINE ROOM Message-ID: I just visited Alexios Chouchoulas' MACHINE ROOM web page and it is downright cool. There is a lot of good information there, and the database is pretty complete as far as micro's go. Check it out. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 4 22:33:56 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Packing Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > Steel wool also conducts electricity--it would be bad news if any of it > happened to get inside any electrical equipment. Yeah, that too. But I don't even want fibers of pink stuff abrading the (now hard to replace) heads of my 8" floppy drives. Or even the (remember these) head load pads. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From foxnhare at goldrush.com Thu Jun 5 00:08:04 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Storage and specialization References: <199706040702.AAA11041@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <339649B5.13D0@goldrush.com> I've had a storage unit for years now (PETs take up wayyy too much room in an apartment, not to mention YEARS of COMPUTE!, Commodore, Ahoy, RUN, Etc.) The big pain about the storage unit is having to dig through the layers of goodies to find what you are getting at. Or even worse knowing you have a tidbit on some subject in you think one of X magazines, and you would have to dig through issues and issues (not at home) to find it. I specialize in my collecting, Commodore 8-bits and just recently Atari 8-Bits. I would have to move to even think of another brand. :/ Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jun 5 11:22:14 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Hello folks Message-ID: <199706051631.LAA26364@challenge.sunflower.com> Hello everyone, Glad to be here. Im in Lawrence KS, an NT administrator for the Dept of Labor and have the following machines. Timex/Sinclair1500 "" 2050 Modem Tandy Color/2 Trs80 Model 4, 128k Trs80 Model 4, 64K Apple /// Profile HD Apple //gs 100meg scsi drive Apple//e Apple//c Apple][+ Apple Macintosh SE Apple Macintosh Se/30 Atari 400 Atari 800XL 1050 FDD Atari 1200Xl 1050 FDD Commodore 64 1541 FDD (2) IBM PC, [dual floppy} Anything I can help with please let me know and visit my web page on my home server. http:\\24.124.36.31 Bill G. Aka. TheDM From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jun 5 14:51:58 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 13:54:10 -0700 (PDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Bill Whitson > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: The List! Bill: Here are some long-forgotten 680x classics form the late '70's and early 80's. I got this info from a bulletin published by a dealer in 1980: ================================================================== MANUFACTURER MODEL CPU RAM OS TYPE YR ================================================================== Smoke Signal Broadcasting----------------------------------------- Chieftain 511 6800 32k SSB DOS/FLEX Micro 79 512 521 522 (all 500 series machines used 5" floppies) Chieftain 811 6800 32k DOS86/FLEX Micro 78 812 821 822 (all 800 series machines used 8" floppies) Chieftain 9811 6809 40k DOS69/FLEX/OS-9 Micro 80 9812 9821 9822 (all 9800 Series machines used 8" drives) Chieftain 9511 6809 40k DOS69/FLEX/OS-9 Micro 80 9512 9521 9522 (all 9500 series machines used 5" drives) These are all SS-50 based systems. The last two digits of the model number merely indicate the number of sides per drive, and the density, respectively. I myself own the equivalent of a Chieftain 9522 - 5.25" DS/DD drives. It is all SSB electronics in a SwTPc cabinet! Their later systems had a MUCH more complicated numbering system; I'll give it to you when I locate the table! Things got pretty hairy when they started selling 8" and 5" Winchesters, as well as streaming tapes! These systems mostly ran OS-9. Later. Jeff Kaneko From radaranalysis at faatcrl.tc.faa.gov Thu Jun 5 16:51:25 1997 From: radaranalysis at faatcrl.tc.faa.gov (Radar Analysis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: TI Prolite portable computer Message-ID: <01BC71D9.177C5F40@JOHNNYG> Help! My neighbor got a free computer, the Prolite from TI. Appears to be an early portable/luggable because it has a huge (at least 16" x 7" and 10lbs) battery pack, a 3.5 inch drive, a LCD display. What the heck is it? Does it run DOS and/or is it from the 80xx family? Thanks in advance From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jun 5 20:22:27 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul References: Message-ID: <33976653.6106@unix.aardvarkol.com> I just got what I think is a pretty good deal. I went out to pick up some dry cleaning today, and decided to drop into one of the area thrift stores, which is right next door. In it I found a Coleco Adam, Adam printer, keyboard, two game controllers, and the holder that attaches to the keyboard to hold one controller. Total for all of the above ended up being $14. It needs some cleaning up, but looks to be complete. Now I could kick myself for passing up the adapter for using Atari 2600 with it which I saw at a flea market this last weekend. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, and Model IV. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From groberts at mitre.org Thu Jun 5 20:05:14 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: pdp 11/34 headed for landfill Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970605210514.007f29a0@mail90> fyi, posted on comp.os.cpm ... - glenn A friend in a bit of a time bind will probably be sending a PDP 11/34 to the landfill very soon. If you want it, and probably a half dozen other assorted racks of minicomputers plus hundreds of reels of 1/2" tape, but NO S-100 stuff (you can probably guess who got THAT!) e-mail immediately....... stuff is located in Tucson, very close to I-10 sorry, no one available to pack it, but Amtrak does stop here....... and they shi[p stuff pretty cheap...... bill_h@azstarnet.com From bcoakley at teleport.com Thu Jun 5 22:18:55 1997 From: bcoakley at teleport.com (Ben Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: TI Prolite portable computer In-Reply-To: <01BC71D9.177C5F40@JOHNNYG> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, Radar Analysis wrote: > Help! My neighbor got a free computer, the Prolite from TI. It's an 8088. It seems to have shipped with MS-DOS 2. I have a complete set of manuals to it, so if you have specific questions, feel free to ask. HTH, -- Ben Coakley bcoakley@teleport.com http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 6 01:52:09 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Misc. References: <3.0.1.32.19970605210514.007f29a0@mail90> Message-ID: <3397B399.6A7D@rain.org> Hi, I just found out about this listserver when a post was made to comp.os.cpm telling about it. Since I have been looking for a while for this type of group, I am very much looking forward to participating. I have lost track of how many computers I have but my best guess is somewhere around 300. I've been collecting for about 10 years or so and I am still adding computers at the rate of about one per month. As a confirmed scrounger, I was lucky enough to run into a couple of things some people here might find useful (not for sale, but for info only if I can help.) Santa Barbara is where both the Lobo Drives Max80 and the Polymorphic computers were made. I have a friend who had a friend who was storing the remains of the Polymorphic documentation, parts, etc. My friend acquired it and I now have it. Basically there are EPROMs, masters of the printed documentation, engineering drawings, so if anyone out there needs info, I may be able to provide it. Also, a local company was a distributor for Vector Graphic Computers and software. I found out they were getting rid of all the documentation, etc. into a dumpster two days after the event. They gave me permission to scrounge their dumpster ... and I did! I have what I *think* is most of the hardware documentation for the Vector Graphic Computers model 3, MZ, and Vector 4. Some of you may remember Pickles & Trout from CP/M days. They also were a Santa Barbara company and a friend of mine was one of the co-founders. I am not familiar with most of what they did, but he would most likely be willing to answer question about their products (this is me volunteering him, not him!) I am always looking for documentation for some of the computers I have. One is a Jonos, and I have no other information and I would like to know a bit more about it. Another is a a neat portable (probably non-working) with nothing but the word "Chisholm" on it. It looks like a prototype judging by the number of mods to the circuit board. Any info would be much appreciated. From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 6 02:36:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: <3397B399.6A7D@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Hi, I just found out about this listserver when a post was made to > comp.os.cpm telling about it. Since I have been looking for a while for > this type of group, I am very much looking forward to participating. I > have lost track of how many computers I have but my best guess is > somewhere around 300. I've been collecting for about 10 years or so and > I am still adding computers at the rate of about one per month. As a Ok, you have just put us all to eternal shame. Do you have a list of all you've got? cuz I'm entirely interested to know. Or perhaps just an excerpt of your more rare systems. Where the hell do you store it all? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From hans1 at filan00.grenoble.hp.com Fri Jun 6 04:20:46 1997 From: hans1 at filan00.grenoble.hp.com (Hans Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Chisolm Message-ID: <3397D66E.7FD1@filan00.grenoble.hp.com> Hi there, Marvin wrote : > Another is a a neat portable (probably > non-working) with nothing but the word "Chisholm" on it. It looks like > a prototype judging by the number of mods to the circuit board. Any > info would be much appreciated. You are right in thinking it's a protoype. I used to work for Gavilan Computers back in the '80s and recall us using Chisholm as our design house. If you can describe the unit, or better yet post a picture, I can perhaps identify it as a Gavilan. Regards, Hans B Pufal From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 6 10:45:51 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ok, you have just put us all to eternal shame. Do you have a list of all > you've got? cuz I'm entirely interested to know. Or perhaps just an > excerpt of your more rare systems. Where the hell do you store it all? As to where I store it ... all over! I tend to forget what I have but I the earliest is probably the PDP 8i, and PDP 11/05. Of course the Mits Altair and Imsai. As to being rare, I don't have a good handle on that part. The collection includes the early Pets with the Chicklet keyboard, Atari, Heath Data Systems, Northstar, Altos, CompuPro, Wang, DEC, Timex, Commodore, Lobo, Polymorphic, Vector Graphic, Intel, Corona and Cordata (the company that took over Corona,) Morrow, Ohio Scientific, some Apple stuff, Tandy and Radio Shack, Sol, Cromemco, Xerox, NCC, Televideo, NCR, Kaypro, Osbourne, IBM, Sanyo, Compaq, Jonos, Eagle, and probably a bunch more I can't recall off hand. When I first started collecting, the idea was to save these things from the dumpster. As time went on, a lot of people kept their eyes open for me and were willing to give me the stuff rather than have to junk it. I just picked up a mint Xerox 820 last weekend from a swapmeet WITH docs (!!!) from someone who just wanted it gone. Someone in town dumpstered a bunch of stuff that was picked up by a friend. In the process of cleaning his place, he gave it to me and it was mostly HD related and included several HD testers (no docs ) and a bunch of non-working HDs. Another thing I am looking for are the docs and schematics for the Zenith H-67 Hard Disk sub-system used with the H-89. The H-67 has a bad power supply board, and without the schematics, it is a bit hard to troubleshoot. I do have duplicate hardware manuals for some of the Vector Graphic computers and would be willing to trade for other documentation I don't have. Also FWIW, I don't sell these computers although I would be willing to trade some of the duplicates for computers I don't have. From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 6 10:53:57 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Chisolm In-Reply-To: <3397D66E.7FD1@filan00.grenoble.hp.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Hans Pufal wrote: > You are right in thinking it's a protoype. > > I used to work for Gavilan Computers back in the '80s and recall us > using Chisholm as our design house. If you can describe the unit, or > better yet post a picture, I can perhaps identify it as a Gavilan. Wow, I think I am beginning to like this listserver! It has an LCD screen with a decent keyboard on it. The size is approximately 12" wide x 8" deep x 5" high and the LCD screen folds up typical of a portable. It has a couple of standard bus size cards (one is missing) but uses the header type connector (2 x 50?) instead of the gold fingers to plug into the backplane. If this is a Gavilan, are docs, schematics, and parts still available? One of the things on my wish list is a digital camera so I can easily digitize photos of stuff like this. From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 6 11:54:59 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com> At 08:53 AM 6/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >One of the things on my wish list is a digital camera so I can easily >digitize photos of stuff like this. I have been trying to decide the best way to get images into digital form. Naturally, a digital camera is one way, but not the only. There's also the photo/scanner method, camcorder/video capture, and probably others. As I see it, the pros/cons are: DigCam: + Easy to use, convenient - Expensive to buy, somewhat limited capacity, no hard copy of images (except printer output) Photo/Scanner: + Hard Copy, can be used for other stuff too - Film and Developing can be expensive, takes time Camcorder: + Easy to use, Allows for selecting the right image from several views - Video capture hardware/software isn't cheap So, does anyone have thoughts on which is best? I'd like a scanner for other things, but they're expensive too. There's also the question of 35mm vs. polaroid and type of scanner. (Not to mention where the heck would I put it!) I've got a camcorder and my girlfriend's mac supposedly can do video capture as is, but I've got to find software and figure it out. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 6 11:51:52 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Also FWIW, I don't sell these computers although I would be willing to > trade some of the duplicates for computers I don't have. You're joking, right? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jun 6 12:02:08 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: TRS-80 - buy,sell, and trade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Howdy folks: I am wondering if anyone out there on this listserve has any Radio Shack TRS-80 they'd like to give up... either for sale or trade. I collect a lot of different things and have Apple, Commodore, Texas Instruments, Colour Genie, MSX, Vectrex, etc., etc... but, my true life-long love has been the TRS-80 Model 1,3,4 line... and now the CoCo line of computers. I am especially looking for any old TRS-80 related magazines: especially 80-Micro, 80-US Journal, and TRS-80 Microcomputer News. I have been archiving software for all these machines, and especially the TRS-80s for about 10 years now. I do have a huge 65 page catalog of everything in my collection. If you'd like to see it just let me know and I'll ship it out. I do not have it in electronic form... only available through USPS. It contains all my classic computer hardware, as well as all my software in original disk, tape, cartridge, etc., forat, as well as already converted to run on modern PC emulators. If you would like to get the catalog even quicker, send me $3 to the address below. It actually costs me $3.24 to mail, and more to publish, but it sure would help me out. As far as the software that I have, I like to believe that I have virtually most things ever written for the TRS-80s, but I know there is a lot more out there. If you have some software of old disk, cassettes, etc. please let me know. As always, I am enternaining expanding my hardware collection as well at all times. I currently have 7 TRS-80 Model 3, 2 Model 1, 4 Model 4s, 3 Model 4ps, and several Commodore 64s, Texas Instruments, 1 Coco 1, 4 CoCo 2, and 1 CoCo 3. I just love collecting these things and would love to hear from others as to what you might have available to expand my collection... or just to hear what interesting things you have. Thanks a lot, and hope to hear from you soon! CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Jun 6 11:59:38 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: TRS-80 - buy,sell, and trade Message-ID: <199706061708.MAA07329@challenge.sunflower.com> I have an extra Trs-80 model 4 (64k) with 2 -floppies, Works FIne, make me a trade offer! ---------- > From: Cord Coslor > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: TRS-80 - buy,sell, and trade > Date: Friday, June 06, 1997 12:02 PM > > Howdy folks: > > I am wondering if anyone out there on this listserve has any Radio Shack > TRS-80 they'd like to give up... either for sale or trade. I collect a lot > of different things and have Apple, Commodore, Texas Instruments, Colour > Genie, MSX, Vectrex, etc., etc... but, my true life-long love has been the > TRS-80 Model 1,3,4 line... and now the CoCo line of computers. > > I am especially looking for any old TRS-80 related magazines: especially > 80-Micro, 80-US Journal, and TRS-80 Microcomputer News. > > I have been archiving software for all these machines, and especially the > TRS-80s for about 10 years now. I do have a huge 65 page catalog of > everything in my collection. If you'd like to see it just let me know and > I'll ship it out. I do not have it in electronic form... only available > through USPS. > > It contains all my classic computer hardware, as well as all my software > in original disk, tape, cartridge, etc., forat, as well as already > converted to run on modern PC emulators. > > If you would like to get the catalog even quicker, send me $3 to the > address below. It actually costs me $3.24 to mail, and more to publish, > but it sure would help me out. > > As far as the software that I have, I like to believe that I have > virtually most things ever written for the TRS-80s, but I know there is a > lot more out there. If you have some software of old disk, cassettes, etc. > please let me know. As always, I am enternaining expanding my hardware > collection as well at all times. I currently have 7 TRS-80 Model 3, 2 > Model 1, 4 Model 4s, 3 Model 4ps, and several Commodore 64s, Texas > Instruments, 1 Coco 1, 4 CoCo 2, and 1 CoCo 3. > > I just love collecting these things and would love to hear from others as > to what you might have available to expand my collection... or just to > hear what interesting things you have. > > Thanks a lot, and hope to hear from you soon! > > CORD COSLOR > > //*=====================================================================++ > || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || > || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || > || Classic computer software and hardware collector || > || Autograph collector || > ++=====================================================================*// > From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri Jun 6 12:23:19 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com> from "Uncle Roger" at Jun 6, 97 09:54:59 am Message-ID: <199706061723.LAA13067@calico.litterbox.com> You might also consider getting your photos from a normal 35mm processed into a photo CD. Most image processing software can read them right from your PC/MAC cdrom. Costs extra, but nothing compared to a digital camera. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 6 14:09:28 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Misc. References: Message-ID: <33986068.6CF3@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > Also FWIW, I don't sell these computers although I would be willing to > > trade some of the duplicates for computers I don't have. > > You're joking, right? No. At this point, I am interested in preserving the history primarily of microcomuters. I have been approached a number of times by people wanting to buy a given computer, but again, selling is not my objective. From danjo at xnet.com Fri Jun 6 18:01:09 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: <33986068.6CF3@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > > > Also FWIW, I don't sell these computers although I would be willing to > > > trade some of the duplicates for computers I don't have. > > > > You're joking, right? > > No. At this point, I am interested in preserving the history primarily > of microcomuters. I have been approached a number of times by people > wanting to buy a given computer, but again, selling is not my objective. I think Sam's comment was aimed more at the point of *for computers I don't have* not that you don't sell them 8-) I guess a good starting point would be - What DON'T you have that you want? BC From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 6 18:20:19 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: <33986068.6CF3@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > > Also FWIW, I don't sell these computers although I would be willing to > > > trade some of the duplicates for computers I don't have. > > > > You're joking, right? > > No. At this point, I am interested in preserving the history primarily > of microcomuters. I have been approached a number of times by people > wanting to buy a given computer, but again, selling is not my objective. Well, I was joking, referring to your statement "trade some of the duplicates for computers I don't have". ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Unless you're talking about homebrews and obscure prototypes that barely made it past the implementation phase, you'll be hard pressed to sqeeze a system out of anyone that you don't have! :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From visimp at junction.net Fri Jun 6 19:48:47 1997 From: visimp at junction.net (Lindsay Thachuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: TRS-80 - buy,sell, and trade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19970606.164847.44@junction.net> In message you wrote: > I am especially looking for any old TRS-80 related magazines: especially > 80-Micro, 80-US Journal, and TRS-80 Microcomputer News. Like many others, I had a TRS-80 as my first desktop computer. I have a series of magazines called Computronics - The Original Magazine for TRS-80 Owners. August 1981 - August 1983 - about 24 issues in mint condition - one or two missing in the series and some duplicate issues. E-mail direct for details -- Lindsay Thachuk in Western Canada with the World's Best Computer - the Acorn RiscPC with the only StrongARM in ARMstrong - Intel Outside From visimp at junction.net Fri Jun 6 19:54:57 1997 From: visimp at junction.net (Lindsay Thachuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com> References: <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: <19970606.165457.68@junction.net> In message <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com> you wrote: > At 08:53 AM 6/6/97 -0700, you wrote: > >One of the things on my wish list is a digital camera so I can easily > >digitize photos of stuff like this. > > I have been trying to decide the best way to get images into digital form. > Naturally, a digital camera is one way, but not the only. There's also the > photo/scanner method, camcorder/video capture, and probably others. As I > see it, the pros/cons are: Digital cameras are convenient but limited resolution. I would suggest you look into the camcorder digitizer called Snappy - good value for money and you can use your existing camcorder. -- Lindsay Thachuk in Western Canada with the World's Best Computer - the Acorn RiscPC with the only StrongARM in ARMstrong From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 7 00:26:46 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Misc. References: Message-ID: <3398F0EF.4C79@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Well, I was joking, referring to your statement "trade some of the > duplicates for computers I don't have". > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Unless you're talking about homebrews and obscure prototypes that barely > made it past the implementation phase, you'll be hard pressed to sqeeze a > system out of anyone that you don't have! :) Ah so, that one went right over my head, sorry about that one :). As far as systems I don't have, there are a LOT I am still looking for. To name just a few, the Aim 64, Kim, SWTP 6800 computer, Acorns (I am not familar with them,) and quite a few others with the main interest in the 70's computers. I am really impressed with "The Big List of Classic Computers" and it has made me much more aware of how small the collection really is compared to what was produced. From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 7 00:29:26 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) References: <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com> <19970606.165457.68@junction.net> Message-ID: <3398F1B6.4788@rain.org> Lindsay Thachuk wrote: > > Digital cameras are convenient but limited resolution. I would suggest > you look into the camcorder digitizer called Snappy - good value for > money and you can use your existing camcorder. That had totally slipped my mind, thanks for the reminder! From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 7 01:03:14 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module References: <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com> <19970606.165457.68@junction.net> <3398F1B6.4788@rain.org> Message-ID: <3398F9A2.20B8@rain.org> In my travels, I picked up a dozen or so Seattle Computer CPU modules, model 220A. Basically, it is a circuit board about 1.5" x 3" with an 8088, SN74LS04, SN74LS30, and a SN74LS273 chip on it. It has an 8 pin header on the component side of the board, and the 40 pins of the 8088 socket extend about .5" below the board. Does anyone here have any idea what this is??? I have had them for several years and have yet to find out where they were used. Thanks. From JONATHAN at holly.ninja.ml.org Sat Jun 7 11:52:41 1997 From: JONATHAN at holly.ninja.ml.org (Jonathan Hunter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Misc. Message-ID: <32C50020438@holly.ninja.ml.org> On 6 Jun 97 at 22:26, Marvin wrote: > Ah so, that one went right over my head, sorry about that one :). As > far as systems I don't have, there are a LOT I am still looking for. To > name just a few, the Aim 64, Kim, SWTP 6800 computer, Acorns (I am not > familar with them,) and quite a few others with the main interest in the > 70's computers. I am really impressed with "The Big List of Classic > Computers" and it has made me much more aware of how small the > collection really is compared to what was produced. I have an Acorn Electron going spare, if anybody wants it. It's a "Plus 3", I've been told - it's the standard Electron, but with an extra expansion module added on, containing a 3.5" floppy disk drive, some ports, and who knows what else...! It's in Manchester, UK. ___ _ _ ___ _ _| (_)(\)(-) | (-)(-)(\) From eifs at thenet.co.uk Fri Jun 6 14:03:49 1997 From: eifs at thenet.co.uk (Eifion Bedford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: Uncle Roger writes >So, does anyone have thoughts on which is best? I'd like a scanner for >other things, but they're expensive too. There's also the question of 35mm >vs. polaroid and type of scanner. (Not to mention where the heck would I >put it!) I've got a camcorder and my girlfriend's mac supposedly can do >video capture as is, but I've got to find software and figure it out. What about taking photos with a normal camera and having them put on a Photo CD? This is relatively cheap and the quality (up to 3000x2000 pixels) should be plenty! -- Eifs From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sat Jun 7 13:18:59 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) Message-ID: <3399A613.6949@oboe.calpoly.edu> Hello, I have been doing some image transfer in the last few months. I bought a Color QuickCam for about $150. The resolution isn't that great but it is easy to use. I also bought a scanner last month through Onsale for $139 + $20 shipping. It came with Photoshop LE which I could sell (I already have Photoshop) for $30. Anyway that brings the cost for a color flatbed (300 x 600) scanner down to $129. It will scan photos with incredible resolution. Photo developing is $6-$10 per roll though. I've never used the camcorder method but I can't imagine it'll be any better than the QuickCam. I did buy a TV card for the PC (I'm still putting together) for $65 a while back. I think it has screen/image capture software and video inputs. If you already have a videocamera that would be your cheapest alternative. Besides, then you can watch Gilligans Island on your computer! > I have been trying to decide the best way to get images into digital form. > Naturally, a digital camera is one way, but not the only. There's also the > photo/scanner method, camcorder/video capture, and probably others. As I > see it, the pros/cons are: > > DigCam: + Easy to use, convenient > - Expensive to buy, somewhat limited capacity, > no hard copy of images (except printer output) > > Photo/Scanner: + Hard Copy, can be used for other stuff too > - Film and Developing can be expensive, takes time > > Camcorder: + Easy to use, Allows for selecting the right image > from several views > - Video capture hardware/software isn't cheap > > So, does anyone have thoughts on which is best? I'd like a scanner for > other things, but they're expensive too. There's also the question of 35mm > vs. polaroid and type of scanner. (Not to mention where the heck would I > put it!) I've got a camcorder and my girlfriend's mac supposedly can do > video capture as is, but I've got to find software and figure it out. From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 7 14:23:28 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: I was watching this program on cable called the Computer Bowl or something hosted by Ziff-Davis publishing where they had two teams of nerds answering computer and computer industry related questions. One of the questions was: What was the serial number on the first Apple ][ computer? Answer tomorrow. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Sat Jun 7 17:32:13 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > As to where I store it ... all over! I tend to forget what I have but I > the earliest is probably the PDP 8i, and PDP 11/05. Of course the Mits > Altair and Imsai. As to being rare, I don't have a good handle on that > part. The collection includes the early Pets with the Chicklet keyboard, > Atari, Heath Data Systems, Northstar, Altos, CompuPro, Wang, DEC, Timex, > Commodore, Lobo, Polymorphic, Vector Graphic, Intel, Corona and Cordata > (the company that took over Corona,) Morrow, Ohio Scientific, some Apple > stuff, Tandy and Radio Shack, Sol, Cromemco, Xerox, NCC, Televideo, NCR, > Kaypro, Osbourne, IBM, Sanyo, Compaq, Jonos, Eagle, and probably a bunch > more I can't recall off hand. All I can say is - when I started putting together the List of Classic Computers I never thought anyone would collect them _all_!! ;) Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Sat Jun 7 18:09:40 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module In-Reply-To: <3398F9A2.20B8@rain.org> Message-ID: I was hoping someone wlse would know, but I'll do my best. > In my travels, I picked up a dozen or so Seattle Computer CPU modules, > model 220A. Basically, it is a circuit board about 1.5" x 3" with an > 8088, SN74LS04, SN74LS30, and a SN74LS273 chip on it. It has an 8 pin > header on the component side of the board, and the 40 pins of the 8088 > socket extend about .5" below the board. Does anyone here have any idea > what this is??? I have had them for several years and have yet to find > out where they were used. Thanks. This info was obtained second hand from a guy I bought a bunch of SCP stuff from. Apparently a one-time friend of his work for them. Thus - this could be wrong. SCP made at least six models of computer the first being Z80 machines which ran CP/M, the next few being 8086 based which ran CPM-86 or SCP-DOS (which I'm pretty sure is MS-DOS 1.0 or the immediate prdecessor purchased by MS). The last were 8088 PC-clone type machines. We're concerned with the 8086 machines which apparently were equipped to take a coprocessor so as to run both CP/M-86 and SCP-DOS/MS-DOS simultaneously. I missed buying such a machine by 15 minutes :(. At any rate - I'm guessing you have a bunch of 8088 co-processors for these machines. The one I missed was called a Gazelle-I so they might be for that machine. Too bad I missed the machine - but I did pick up everything else the guy had. Came down to a stack of Shugart 8" drives, some CompuPro S-100 boards and a whole bunch of SCP disks. Now that I've brought it up - SCP-DOS 1.0 = MS-DOS 1.0? I'm pretty sure it is because another disk I've got is labelled the same but says SCP/MS-DOS v1.25. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 7 18:23:18 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module References: Message-ID: <3399ED66.24F1@rain.org> > > > In my travels, I picked up a dozen or so Seattle Computer CPU modules, > > model 220A. Basically, it is a circuit board about 1.5" x 3" with an > > 8088, SN74LS04, SN74LS30, and a SN74LS273 chip on it. It has an 8 pin > > header on the component side of the board, and the 40 pins of the 8088 > > socket extend about .5" below the board. Does anyone here have any idea > > what this is??? I have had them for several years and have yet to find > > out where they were used. Thanks. > CP/M-86 and SCP-DOS/MS-DOS simultaneously. I missed buying such a > machine by 15 minutes :(. At any rate - I'm guessing you have a > bunch of 8088 co-processors for these machines. The one I missed > was called a Gazelle-I so they might be for that machine. > > Bill That would make sense since they sure look like an add-on for something. One thing I left out of the descriptions was the date code on the chips were 1986. If anyone has a need for them, let me know as I have about 2 dozen when I checked again. From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 7 18:30:04 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Misc. References: Message-ID: <3399EEFC.3255@rain.org> Bill Whitson wrote: > > > As to where I store it ... all over! I tend to forget what I have but I > > the earliest is probably the PDP 8i, and PDP 11/05. Of course the Mits > > Altair and Imsai. As to being rare, I don't have a good handle on that > > part. The collection includes the early Pets with the Chicklet keyboard, > > Atari, Heath Data Systems, Northstar, Altos, CompuPro, Wang, DEC, Timex, > > Commodore, Lobo, Polymorphic, Vector Graphic, Intel, Corona and Cordata > > (the company that took over Corona,) Morrow, Ohio Scientific, some Apple > > stuff, Tandy and Radio Shack, Sol, Cromemco, Xerox, NCC, Televideo, NCR, > > Kaypro, Osbourne, IBM, Sanyo, Compaq, Jonos, Eagle, and probably a bunch > > more I can't recall off hand. > > All I can say is - when I started putting together the List of Classic > Computers I never thought anyone would collect them _all_!! ;) > I was reading a copy of the Z-Letter a few years ago and read where he had somewhere around 400 computers. I figured I had better get busy if I was to have any chance of catching him :). From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 7 21:25:12 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Polymorphic Computers Message-ID: I was checking the Polymorphic Systems computers I have against the "The Big List" and found an 8824. It is a partial chassis but looks similar to the others except it is designed for 8" drives. Since it is not complete, I'll have to check in the Engineering stuff to see if there is a description of it. I also found a chassis model 88DS. It doesn't match with the number in "The Big List" so I'll check further into that. Regarding the others, from the "System 88 User's Manual", copyright 1979. 1.1 SYSTEM 88 MODELS The System 88 product line consists of the System 8813, available with up to 3 mini-floppy drives; the System 8810 with one mini-floppy drive, and the 88/MS add-on with 2 large floppy drives. The 8813 and 8810 models are available with optional double-sided, double density, mini-floppy disk drives. The 88/MS, an add-on storage for the 8813, is available with either double or single-sided, double density large floppy disk drives. From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 7 21:45:38 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > This info was obtained second hand from a guy I bought a bunch of > SCP stuff from. Apparently a one-time friend of his work for them. > Thus - this could be wrong. SCP made at least six models of computer > the first being Z80 machines which ran CP/M, the next few being 8086 > based which ran CPM-86 or SCP-DOS (which I'm pretty sure is MS-DOS > 1.0 or the immediate prdecessor purchased by MS). The last were 8088 I never knew they called it SCP-DOS. All I ever heard it called was "QDOS" -- Quick & Dirty Operating System, basically a crude CP/M clone. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From djenner at halcyon.com Sat Jun 7 23:04:05 1997 From: djenner at halcyon.com (Dave Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Available: DEC Rainbow Memory Extension Cards Message-ID: <339A2125.36C7@halcyon.com> I have available several PC100B Memory Extension cards for the Rainbow for giveaway, or for trade if you have something that interests me. At the moment, the cards are unpopulated, but you can generally find 256Kbit chips to fill the board for about a $1 junk PC card. (A fully populated board has at most 3 banks of 9 256Kbit chips for a total of 768K and a system total of 896K.) I can provide a copy of the memory configuration pamphlet. I will give preference to anyone who has something to trade, but feel free to ask even if you don't. If you have something to trade I will even go out and find the $1 junk board and populate the card! Here's what I am looking for: 1) BCC17 cable for use with a VT241 color monitor 2) Documentation for Rainbow Concurrent CP/M-86, especially programming references. 3) Venix/Rainbow software and documentation. Dave Jenner djenner@halcyon.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 7 23:13:58 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module Message-ID: <199706080413.AA21276@world.std.com> > > This info was obtained second hand from a guy I bought a bunch of > > SCP stuff from. Apparently a one-time friend of his work for them. > > Thus - this could be wrong. SCP made at least six models of computer > > the first being Z80 machines which ran CP/M, the next few being 8086 > > based which ran CPM-86 or SCP-DOS (which I'm pretty sure is MS-DOS > > 1.0 or the immediate prdecessor purchased by MS). The last were 8088 > > I never knew they called it SCP-DOS. All I ever heard it called was > "QDOS" -- Quick & Dirty Operating System, basically a crude CP/M clone. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe > Hi, New here but here goes... The module was a "upgrade product for those wating a 8088 and having only z80 cpu. By unplugging the z80 and putting in the card you could run 16bit apps. qdos was not a clone it was and outright disassembly of CP/M80 v1.4 and reassembly to 8086/8. Allison From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 7 23:57:03 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module References: <199706080413.AA21276@world.std.com> Message-ID: <339A3B9F.A6E@rain.org> Allison J Parent wrote: > > The module was a "upgrade product for those wating a 8088 and having only > z80 cpu. By unplugging the z80 and putting in the card you could run 16bit > apps. > Does this mean it would work in place of any 8080 CPU? Any idea what the 8 pin header on the component side of the board was used for? This is interesting since these past comments are the first I have heard about the module! From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 8 01:29:54 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module In-Reply-To: <339A3B9F.A6E@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Allison J Parent wrote: > > The module was a "upgrade product for those wating a 8088 and having only > > z80 cpu. By unplugging the z80 and putting in the card you could run 16bit > > apps. > Does this mean it would work in place of any 8080 CPU? Any idea what > the 8 pin header on the component side of the board was used for? This > is interesting since these past comments are the first I have heard > about the module! The 8080 is a 40-pin package. The Z-80 is a 48-pin package. If I remember correctly (my life in computers started with the Z-80, really, since my friend with the Altair when I was in the USAF didn't let me at the hardware, he knew my [inclined to injure myself] soldering skills). This generally means that an adapter was needed to plug a Z-80 into a board designed for a 8080. But I started my real computer career when computers showed up where you didn't have to count the pins on the CPU, specifically the TRS-80 (later renamed the Model One). I remember the first time I looked down into a Model 16 and saw the MC68000 and wondered why the hell that thing wasn't climbing up the side of the Empire State Building. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From pogi at ns.qnis.net Sun Jun 8 08:41:47 1997 From: pogi at ns.qnis.net (Kenneth Harbit) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:15 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <199706081341.GAA26678@ns.qnis.net> From KFergason at aol.com Sun Jun 8 08:45:02 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module Message-ID: <970608094501_678140300@emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-08 03:18:29 EDT, you write: << The 8080 is a 40-pin package. The Z-80 is a 48-pin package. If I remember correctly (my life in computers started with the Z-80, really, >> no. the z-80 is a 40-pin package. i got bunches. Kelly From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 8 09:49:09 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module In-Reply-To: <970608094501_678140300@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997 KFergason@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-06-08 03:18:29 EDT, you write: > > << The 8080 is a 40-pin package. The Z-80 is a 48-pin package. If I > remember correctly (my life in computers started with the Z-80, really, >> > > no. the z-80 is a 40-pin package. i got bunches. You're right, I just looked -- don't recall where I got that idea. Of course, I still don't open my boxes all that often -- I'm still inclined to injure myself. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 8 10:57:49 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Seattle Computer CPU Module Message-ID: <199706081557.AA17504@world.std.com> > > The module was a "upgrade product for those wating a 8088 and having onl > > z80 cpu. By unplugging the z80 and putting in the card you could run 16 > > Does this mean it would work in place of any 8080 CPU? Any idea what > the 8 pin header on the component side of the board was used for? This > is interesting since these past comments are the first I have heard > about the module! No. first it was not an 8080 replacement. Though it may have subbed for 8085 as they were very similar. Two the system had to be configured to run 8088 code(wich is not 8080 or z80 compatable. I had done this to an 8085 system as the signals from the 8088 are the 8085 are very close. The extra plug was likely the remaining 4 address lines (16 bit vs 20 bit addressing). If I had one I could trace it out and regenerate the schematic. Allison From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Sun Jun 8 11:54:15 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <970608115415.20811b53@wartburg.edu> I'm fairly new to the list, so I'd like to introduce myself (and my computers). I am typing this message right now on an Apple IIGS. I've worked with most of the older Apple II series computers also. I still actively use my Apple IIGS for nearly every task that most people think requires a "new" computer. My first computer, on which I learned a *lot* about programming, was the Mattel Aquarius, which I still own. I've been looking off and on for information about it. The FAQ is nice, but I know of at least one possible inaccuracy: the "Chess" game was released, I'm reasonably sure, because I have it. The computer's not too bad of a player, either, if I remember (it's been *years* since I've used the machine - I'm living at college right now, and the Aquarius is at home). I know now that a lot of people didn't like the Aquarius. I thought it was a really neat machine. I probably learned more from it that from any other single learning tool I've ever had, with the *possible* exception of my IIGS. I'm looking forward to hearing about anyone else's experiences with the Aquarius (or even the IIGS, though info about that is still plentiful on comp.sys.apple2). -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu http://www.wartburg.edu/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From william at ans.net Sun Jun 8 12:02:27 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Teaneck Findings In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970602142306.00920a70@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <199706081702.AA29402@interlock.ans.net> The Teaneck NJ hamfest this past Saturday yeilded only a few old computer pieces (good for tubes, however). I saw quite a few old micros (sorry, I did not make notes - I am not much of a micro person). I did see... Sun 3/110 (with a few spare cards) - a bit expensive DEC PDP-11/70 front panel - the good kind with knobs, switches, and lights (I purchased this) DEC KBD01 - a true whatsit - 8085 based, in one of the LSI-11/2 desktop boxes, RS-232 (maybe) and another D connector on back. Any clues? I have no clue. (I purchased this as well) DEC DELNI - a small stack William Donzelli william@ans.net From kyrrin at wizards.net Sun Jun 8 12:06:44 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Tape drive help? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970608100644.00f790e0@mail.wizards.net> In the interests of getting an old DEC PDP-11 running, I've got an STC 9-track tape drive here, a model 2921. This is, apparently, one of the rare few that StorageTek (aka, STC/Telex) manufactured with a Pertec interface vs. their own. Based on conversations with a company that still maintains these old beasts, it appears that the CPU card has gone bad. I'd like to at least try and confirm this by swapping said card with a known-good one. So... anyone own a 2921 that they don't mind it being used as a guinea pig? ;-) Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 8 12:30:36 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: 8088s seattle comp. Message-ID: <199706081730.AA01490@world.std.com> Subject: Re: Seattle Computer CPU Module > The 8080 is a 40-pin package. The Z-80 is a 48-pin package. If I > remember correctly (my life in computers started with the Z-80, really, Whn I got up off the floor laughing... The z80, 8085, 8080 are all 40 pin packages and the z80 in any varient was never in a 48 pin package. The z180 aka 64180 was a 64 pin package or 68pin plcc. > since my friend with the Altair when I was in the USAF didn't let me at > the hardware, he knew my [inclined to injure myself] soldering skills). > This generally means that an adapter was needed to plug a Z-80 into a > board designed for a 8080. But I started my real computer career when Not true. there were z80 based boards to replace the 8080 board. For a while due to costs there where boards that carried z80s that would plug into an 8080 socket to upgrade the machine to z80 perfomance... > computers showed up where you didn't have to count the pins on the CPU, > specifically the TRS-80 (later renamed the Model One). I remember the > first time I looked down into a Model 16 and saw the MC68000 and wondered > why the hell that thing wasn't climbing up the side of the Empire State > Building. What you missed was the ti9900 chip that was 3 years older and also 64 pins. FYI the ti9900 chips was a 16bit cpu! Allison --LAA09304.865785477/europe.std.com-- From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 8 12:30:50 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: intro sort of Message-ID: <199706081730.AA01592@world.std.com> Hello, I'm Allison and I've been invloved with microcomputer since the introduction of the MCS8 (8008) and computers in general since the PDP-8. On site I have... they are all operational: DEC made: VT180 (cpm/zcpr) PDP-11/23 (RT-11 os) PDP-11/23+ (RT-11 os) PDP11/73 (RSTS or RT-11 os) PDT-11/130 (RT-11) MicroVAX2000 (Currently VMS5.4 later netbsd) MicrovaxII/gps (Currently VMS5.4 later netbsd) CPM and S100 systems: Northstar* s100 z80 (CP/M/zcpr, 40 meg hard disk) S100 (vector chasis) computime z80 and misc s100 cards (cpm/zcpr) SB180 (CPM2.2/zcpr 3.5" floppies and 20meg hard disk) Ampro Little board (CP/m/ZCPR 3.5" floppies and 42meg hard disk) Explorer85 8085 (NS*dos cpm1.4) Epson PX8 geneva with 120k ramdisk and 64k ramdisk/300baud modem wedges (runs cpm from rom) Kaypro 4/84 (turborom and CPM) MITS Altair 8800 (I built this one in late 74, one of the early units) Misc Single board computers (demo boards) Intersil 6960 mdemo board, 6100 chip 12bit PDP-8 on a chip National Semi ISP8a500 low cost 8 bit cpu. Technico Inc board using texas instruments TI9900 chip 16 bit (also have a TI99/4A with w/expansion box and software) Motorola 6800D2 board National Semi Nibblebasic chip (CPU with rom basic on a chip) Original cosmac elf. RCA1802 IMSI IMP48 8035 cpu NEC TK80 8080 demo board. PCs Leading edge model D 8088 (dos) (several other PCs far too new (less than 10 years). Plus parts (8080s, 8085, 8088, peripheral chips, rams...) CPU chips 8080, 8085, 8086, 8088, 80188, 80186, 808286, z80s, 6800s, 6502, 1802, 6100, 6120(pdp8), 8748, 8035, 8749, 8039, 8751, 8031, T11chip (pdp11 on a chip), NECd78pg11, NEC d7800 Allison From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sun Jun 8 13:30:40 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: [Fwd: FS: Ancient Unix Boxen] Message-ID: <339AFA50.54F6@oboe.calpoly.edu> This was posted on a local newsgroup. Don't know if the guy wants to ship them but I thought I should forward this. Greg -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Jamie Town Subject: FS: Ancient Unix Boxen Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 22:05:58 -0700 Size: 2036 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970608/7e8dbd70/attachment-0001.mht From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 8 14:53:53 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: [Fwd: FS: Ancient Unix Boxen] References: <339AFA50.54F6@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <339B0DD1.37A0@rain.org> Greg Mast wrote: > > This was posted on a local newsgroup. Don't know if the guy wants to > ship them but I thought I should forward this. > > Greg > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: FS: Ancient Unix Boxen > Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 22:05:58 -0700 > From: Jamie Town > Organization: N/A > Newsgroups: slo.for-sale Good grief, right in my backyard! I just left a message for him and we'll see what happens. I have both machines, but not sure about the documentation. Thanks for reposting!!! From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 8 15:14:04 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Polymorphic Computers References: <339AFA50.54F6@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <339B128C.4076@rain.org> With many thanks to the existance of this group for motivation, I got busy and started checking out the Polymorphic Systems stuff that I have. So far, the only thing I haven't checked out and organized are the engineering drawings so I don't know what is there. There appear to be a complete set of master manuals, both hardcopy for duplicating, and on disk. I haven't checked out how complete the ROM set is yet, but there are a lot of ROM software source listings, primarily on disk but some on hardcopy. The source code (and history) for the programs Polymorphic provided are also here. One thing I found really interesting was a copy of their business plan written about 1979 or so. It appears that something happened and they went into Chapter XI at some point, and were recovering when the business plan was written. Brochure trivia: a friend of mine, wearing a shirt and tie, was pictured working at the computer. What the picture didn't show were the shorts he was wearing when the picture was taken :). Regarding the model 88DS, I found (but haven't checked it out yet) a manual describing the conversion of the Model 88 to the Model 88DS. I still need to set up one of the Polymorphic computers with both 8" and 5 1/4" drives to check out the *many* disks. One thing I was thinking of for archival purposes was to back everything up to CD-ROM. Of course, I would need to get the CDR unit, but hey, these are just details :). From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Jun 8 16:04:12 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <970608115415.20811b53@wartburg.edu> from "Andy Brobston" at Jun 8, 97 11:54:15 am Message-ID: <199706082104.PAA24400@calico.litterbox.com> Re: Apple2 GS I currently have two of the things and have been merrily upgrading them with obselete PC parts (300mb hard disks sure are cheap these days) and will soon haul one to my father to upgrade him from his Laser (2e clone) to a GS so he can have a web browser, etc. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 8 22:13:15 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: ; from "Marvin Johnston" at Jun 6, 97 8:45 am Message-ID: <199706082113.24223@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > > > Ok, you have just put us all to eternal shame. Do you have a list of all > > you've got? cuz I'm entirely interested to know. Or perhaps just an > > excerpt of your more rare systems. Where the hell do you store it all? Wow.... This lot totally dwarfs my little collection (I think I have about 150 machines, including calculators, but excluding interesting peripherals), and I thought I was doing pretty well! > > As to where I store it ... all over! I tend to forget what I have but I Ditto. Storage is a _BIG_ problem, and one which I guess all people on this list have to deal with. A mad friend of mine is a calculator collector, and he's fond of pointing out in his lectures that his collection will fit under his bed, while mine (pointing to ard on the front row :-)) will barely fit in the house > the earliest is probably the PDP 8i, and PDP 11/05. Of course the Mits Do you have any other minis? I find them a lot more interesting than micros, as I think I've mentioned before, since you can actually understand how the CPU works at gate level. > Altair and Imsai. As to being rare, I don't have a good handle on that > part. The collection includes the early Pets with the Chicklet keyboard, > Atari, Heath Data Systems, Northstar, Altos, CompuPro, Wang, DEC, Timex, > Commodore, Lobo, Polymorphic, Vector Graphic, Intel, Corona and Cordata > (the company that took over Corona,) Morrow, Ohio Scientific, some Apple > stuff, Tandy and Radio Shack, Sol, Cromemco, Xerox, NCC, Televideo, NCR, > Kaypro, Osbourne, IBM, Sanyo, Compaq, Jonos, Eagle, and probably a bunch > more I can't recall off hand. A partial list of manufacturers in my collection : Acorn, Apple, Commodore, Atari, Tandy, IBM, DEC, 3RCC/PERQ systems, ICL, HH, Panasonic, Research Machines, Oric, HP, Northstar, I2S, Intel, FTS, Exidy, Xerox/Diablo, Tektronix, Olivetti, CCS, Sharp, Torch, Philips, Epson, Ramtek, Grinnell, Sun, Apollo, WCW(no complete machines - yet!), AES, Zilog, Sage, Sinclair, Sanyo, Tatung, SGS, CASU, Jupiter Cantab, Grundy, Genrad/Futuredata, NEC, PPL, Evans and Sutherland, Sanders, Facit, Cipher, Teletype, Novus, Casio, etc. > > When I first started collecting, the idea was to save these things from > the dumpster. As time went on, a lot of people kept their eyes open I think most people start like that. You suddenly realise that a lot of computer history is going to be lost for ever unless somebody does something about it - and you're that somebody. > for me and were willing to give me the stuff rather than have to junk it. A tip : Get known where you work (and at church, clubs, etc) as somebody who wants old computer and electronic 'junk'. It's amazing what you get given - several times people have said 'Oh, we're about to throw this out, do you want it' where 'this' is a complete computer system with all manuals. > Another thing I am looking for are the docs and schematics for the Zenith > H-67 Hard Disk sub-system used with the H-89. The H-67 has a bad power > supply board, and without the schematics, it is a bit hard to > troubleshoot. Power supplies are either linear or switchers. Linears are next-to-trivial to sort out (at least if they use any of the standard regulator IC's), and switching units can be repaired. There are a number of standard IC's, and if any of those are used, you can generally guess the configuration in about 5 minutes with a bit of practice. SMPS's that either use standard linear IC's (723's, 555's, etc) or which are entirely discrete transistors are more of a pain, but again, there are circuits that turn up again and again. I've found that reading a handful of service manuals (especially TV or monitor manuals) will often turn up a circuit that's similar to yours. If there are any IC's in the PSU, post the numbers, and I'll see if I can guess what's going on. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 8 22:20:05 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970606100120.0937be2c@mail.crl.com>; from "Uncle Roger" at Jun 6, 97 9:54 am Message-ID: <199706082120.24488@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > At 08:53 AM 6/6/97 -0700, you wrote: > >One of the things on my wish list is a digital camera so I can easily > >digitize photos of stuff like this. > > I have been trying to decide the best way to get images into digital form. > Naturally, a digital camera is one way, but not the only. There's also the > photo/scanner method, camcorder/video capture, and probably others. As I > see it, the pros/cons are: It seems to me that it would be fun if our pictures of classic hardware were themselves produced by a classic machine. And yes, there were image processing systems 10 - 15 years ago, some of which _occassionally_ turn up second-hand. I2S had a TV-rate ADC card for their image processing systems. It would take the output from a monochrome video camera with a few mods, and let you store images in the machine's RAM, and hence on disk. If you want colour, either add another 2 cards, or use filters to take separate R,G,B images with a monochrome camera (the subject is static, of course), and combine them later. Mind you, the cost of a 2nd-hand I2S processor + camera + interface electronics would almost certainly exceed the cost of a QuickCam or whatever. There are also 'classic' CCD cameras. There was a thing made by 'Datacopy' that had a linear CCD that was mechanically scanned across the frame (motor + leadscrew). There was certainly a PERQ interface for this (made by GHS/Audre' in Canada), and I guess others as well. These solutions sound a lot more fun than a modern PC-based system. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 8 19:50:13 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul References: <33976653.6106@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <339B5345.7702@unix.aardvarkol.com> This weekend was pretty quiet, though I did pick up a couple ColecoVision cartridges, including 'Turbo' with the 'Expansion Module #2' steering wheel and gas pedal, a set of Commodore 1312 paddles for the VIC-20 and a boxed 'Road Race' cartridge for the VIC-20. I also recieved the TRS-80 Mod. 4P from Barry. Thanks Barry! The weekend has basically been spent fooling with both the 4P and the ADAM. Does anyone have a spare data drive or 160k floppy for the ADAM? This next thing really doesn't fit into the group, but it is likely something that a good many of you may be interested in. I found an emulator on the web which takes actual ROM images from the coin-op arcade games, and plays them on either a PC, UNIX, Amiga, or Mac. There are quite a few games supported by the emulator at this point, and it seems to work quite well. I've play Q^bert, Zaxxon, and Donkey Kong on it. You even get to see the coin-op startup tests, if there were any. For the emulator as well as ROM's, check out: Http://www.wwnet.com/~lord13/mame/mame1.htm Jeff -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From jonathan at holly.ninja.ml.org Sun Jun 8 23:13:50 1997 From: jonathan at holly.ninja.ml.org (Jonathan Hunter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) Message-ID: <34FAB2360E0@holly.ninja.ml.org> > There are also 'classic' CCD cameras. There was a thing made by > 'Datacopy' that had a linear CCD that was mechanically scanned > across the frame (motor + leadscrew). There was certainly a PERQ > interface for this (made by GHS/Audre' in Canada), and I guess > others as well. > > These solutions sound a lot more fun than a modern PC-based system. Yes :-) I remember the PCWs we used to have at school. They had small scanning devices that replaced the print head on the printer. The computer would make the printer scan the entire sheet of paper, line by line, and in this way it built up the image... Not the fastest of scanners, but fun to watch it go! ___ _ _ ___ _ _| (_)(\)(-) | (-)(-)(\) From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 8 23:21:31 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: <34FAB2360E0@holly.ninja.ml.org>; from "Jonathan Hunter" at Jun 8, 97 11:13 pm Message-ID: <199706082221.26473@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I remember the PCWs we used to have at school. They had small scanning > devices that replaced the print head on the printer. The computer Wasn't there a thing called a 'Thunderscan' that fitted into an Apple Imagewriter and did essentially this? I also remember a do-it-yourself project on this in Byte (back in the days when it contained useful info...). I seem to recall it used a normal dot-matrix printer, and a photosensor that you fitted onto the carriage. I wonder how hard it would be to use a monitor (the smaller the better), some optical bits and a photomultiplier tube to make a flying-spot scanner. Seems like a fun project for a rainy day... -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sun Jun 8 17:43:14 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: <339B5345.7702@unix.aardvarkol.com> References: <33976653.6106@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970608234314.0068598c@post.keme.co.uk> At 17:50 08/06/97 -0700, you wrote: >This weekend was pretty quiet, though I did pick up a couple >ColecoVision cartridges, including 'Turbo' with the 'Expansion Module >#2' steering wheel and gas pedal, a set of Commodore 1312 paddles for >the VIC-20 and a boxed 'Road Race' cartridge for the VIC-20. I also >recieved the TRS-80 Mod. 4P from Barry. Thanks Barry! The weekend has >basically been spent fooling with both the 4P and the ADAM. Does anyone >have a spare data drive or 160k floppy for the ADAM? > > This next thing really doesn't fit into the group, but it is likely >something that a good many of you may be interested in. I found an >emulator on the web which takes actual ROM images from the coin-op >arcade games, and plays them on either a PC, UNIX, Amiga, or Mac. There >are quite a few games supported by the emulator at this point, and it >seems to work quite well. I've play Q^bert, Zaxxon, and Donkey Kong on >it. You even get to see the coin-op startup tests, if there were any. >For the emulator as well as ROM's, check out: > > Http://www.wwnet.com/~lord13/mame/mame1.htm > > Jeff >-- >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ >Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, >800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, >VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, >Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 >Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong >and Atari 2600VCS game consoles > >Well all i got in the UK was MArio Game & Watch, ZX81 and a Oric 1!!! btw great to see a list devoted to my Hobby. Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sun Jun 8 17:48:24 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970608234314.0068598c@post.keme.co.uk> References: <339B5345.7702@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970608234824.006a0308@post.keme.co.uk> Hi if i can help with any bits that may only be here in the UK then please mail me, You never know You may even be able to help me! Take Care Steve.. Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 17:52:19 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <970608115415.20811b53@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Andy Brobston wrote: > My first computer, on which I learned a *lot* about programming, was > the Mattel Aquarius, which I still own. I've been looking off and on > for information about it. The FAQ is nice, but I know of at least one > possible inaccuracy: the "Chess" game was released, I'm reasonably > sure, because I have it. The computer's not too bad of a player, > either, if I remember (it's been *years* since I've used the machine - > I'm living at college right now, and the Aquarius is at home). > > I know now that a lot of people didn't like the Aquarius. I thought it > was a really neat machine. I probably learned more from it that from > any other single learning tool I've ever had, with the *possible* > exception of my IIGS. My story mirrors yours. I, too, learned on the Aquarius, and I loved it. I then moved on to the Apple ][+. I have few regrets in my life, but of the more nerdy ones, I regret ever selling my Aquarius to finance the purchase of my Apple ][+. I had all the peripherals for it (including the thermal printer and datasette, and of course the expansion module with controllers and a 4K RAM carthridge). It was a neat little machine. I've been slowly putting together an Aquarius. I've had a manual forever that I can't remember where it came from, thanks to Jeff Hellige I recently picked up the computer itself, and the other day I picked up the expansion module with two controllers and a carthridge called "Biorhythms". Hopefully I'll find the datasette and thermal printer some day, but I still will never have all the neat programs I wrote for it. Although I do have a substantial number of them printed out on thermal paper, so I guess that is good enough, although the print is starting to fade. Ahhhh, I miss those days. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 18:06:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: <199706082120.24488@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > These solutions sound a lot more fun than a modern PC-based system. If not completely outrageous and insane. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 18:00:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Olivetti XP 1050/SP Message-ID: I saw an Olivetti XP 1050/SP that I passed up the other day cuz it looked like a common PC clone type dealy. Anyone have any information on this? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 18:09:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: <199706082221.26473@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > I remember the PCWs we used to have at school. They had small scanning > > devices that replaced the print head on the printer. The computer > > Wasn't there a thing called a 'Thunderscan' that fitted into an Apple > Imagewriter and did essentially this? Yes, it worked quite well. I saw this work on a friend's MAC backing in 1986. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 9 00:18:36 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 8, 97 4:06 pm Message-ID: <199706082318.28179@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > These solutions sound a lot more fun than a modern PC-based system. > > If not completely outrageous and insane. I hope you're suggesting that's a good reason _to_ use them :-) If not, what's insane about a graphics display system that fills an entire 6' rack, contains over 3000 DRAM chips (and about as many TTL devices to control everything), and has a service manual that contains the wonderful statement 'Repair the instrument using normal techniques. The supplied set of Engineering Drawings may be of help'. That is the entire section on maintenance and repair! > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From thompson at squirrel.tgsoft.com Sun Jun 8 18:21:36 1997 From: thompson at squirrel.tgsoft.com (mark thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: ZX81 In-Reply-To: <339B0DD1.37A0@rain.org> (message from Marvin on Sun, 08 Jun 1997 12:53:53 -0700) Message-ID: <19970608232136.2924.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com> I have a ZX81 for sale, with the 16K memory addon and a game cassette. First e-mail that reaches me with an address and the words: "Will pay shipping plus $16" gets it. I also have a couple of magazine samples that came with it. Naturally, if it works, it is a bonus - *no guarantees*. -mark From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 9 00:23:43 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Olivetti M10, etc In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 8, 97 4:00 pm Message-ID: <199706082323.28249@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > I saw an Olivetti XP 1050/SP that I passed up the other day cuz it looked > like a common PC clone type dealy. Anyone have any information on this? Talking of Olivetti machines, has anyone else ever come across the Olivetti M10? It's a laptop with a flip-up display (It doesn't open like a normal modern laptop - the upper face of the display when closed is the face where the image appears, but you can flip it up to a more convenient angle to use it), and appears to be related to the Tandy M100. The keyboard has 1 fewer key (I think it's either Graph or Code that's missing) than the M100, and has a different layout. The main PCB is different in layout to either of the M100 PCBs, but is electrically very similar (even down to component designations being the same). The built-in software is very similar (identical? apart from obvious changes to support the different keyboard and to say 'Olivetti' in start-up messages). > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 18:13:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > What was the serial number on the first Apple ][ computer? The answer is 2001. I guess no one cared. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 8 18:59:27 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: 8088s seattle comp. In-Reply-To: <199706081730.AA01490@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > What you missed was the ti9900 chip that was 3 years older and also 64 pins. > FYI the ti9900 chips was a 16bit cpu! Yes, I've since seen the guts of a TI-99/4A. I ignored it for many years, since the time I first played with a TI-99/4 at the computer store in Las Vegas, wrote a BASIC loop to count to a hundred and got there first counting out loud. I've been shown since that the machine was reasonably fast, as long as you avoided BASIC, but that was the only tool at the time. My fiancee has three of them, one still in shrink-wrap -- she credits a cassette-based algebra tutorial for the system is what got her through the math requirement to get her nursing degree from Rutgers (a bit of a joke for a guy who decided to major in math by the time he reached 4th grade in 1964, that tutorial covers material I had to know to get a decent grade in 8th grade -- and I'd always been told that public schools on the east coast were miles ahead of those I attended in Los Angeles, in more than one case by one of my teachers in Los Angeles -- when I moved from California to New Hampshire for my sophomore year of high school I learned that Santa Claus and Jesus weren't the only things my mother lied about when I was a kid -- but maybe the schools were better before the federal government leveled the playing field and made them "equal" ala Kurt Vonnegut's story "Harrison Bergeron".) All I know is that I can do a damn sight more useful work with a TRS-80 Model 4 or Color Computer than I've ever seen done with a TI-99 -- and I apologise for showing favoritism in this mailing list where I know damned well I should not play such favorites. (But I will continue to let others collect the machines with those 6502 processors -- never had it, never will). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 8 20:20:21 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > wrote for it. Although I do have a substantial number of them printed > out on thermal paper, so I guess that is good enough, although the print > is starting to fade. Gee, on my old thermal printouts, they never faded -- courtesy of many years of heat in Las Vegas and Los Angeles, the paper darkened. Same difference when you're trying to read what you typed in 1979. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 8 20:22:45 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > These solutions sound a lot more fun than a modern PC-based system. > If not completely outrageous and insane. > Sam Hey, they said we were insane when when we got involved with these silicon-based lifeforms when they were new. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 20:19:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) In-Reply-To: <199706082318.28179@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > If not completely outrageous and insane. > > I hope you're suggesting that's a good reason _to_ use them :-) > > If not, what's insane about a graphics display system that fills an entire > 6' rack, contains over 3000 DRAM chips (and about as many TTL devices to > control everything), and has a service manual that contains the wonderful > statement 'Repair the instrument using normal techniques. The supplied set > of Engineering Drawings may be of help'. That is the entire section on > maintenance and repair! Hmmmm...come to think of it, you've got a point. Finding the time for all this is an entirely different matter. By the time I got around to scanning in all my photos using such a classic contraption, the P100 clone system I use at home would be a classic itself. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 20:22:32 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: ZX81 In-Reply-To: <19970608232136.2924.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com> Message-ID: On 8 Jun 1997, mark thompson wrote: > I have a ZX81 for sale, with the 16K memory addon and a game > cassette. First e-mail that reaches me with an address and the > words: "Will pay shipping plus $16" gets it. > > I also have a couple of magazine samples that came with it. > > Naturally, if it works, it is a bonus - *no guarantees*. WILL PAY SHIPPING PLUS $16!!! (I'm hoping by typing it all in uppercase it will make my e-mail get there first :) Sam Ismail 4275-29 Rosewood Drive #161 Pleasanton, California 94588 Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 20:32:07 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: ZX81 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On 8 Jun 1997, mark thompson wrote: > > > I have a ZX81 for sale, with the 16K memory addon and a game > > cassette. First e-mail that reaches me with an address and the > > words: "Will pay shipping plus $16" gets it. > > > > I also have a couple of magazine samples that came with it. > > > > Naturally, if it works, it is a bonus - *no guarantees*. > > WILL PAY SHIPPING PLUS $16!!! > > (I'm hoping by typing it all in uppercase it will make my e-mail get > there first :) Damn it. Replied to the wrong address. Guess I moved too fast. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Sun Jun 8 21:03:12 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <970608210312.20812178@wartburg.edu> >My story mirrors yours. I, too, learned on the Aquarius, and I loved >it. I then moved on to the Apple ][+. I have few regrets in my life, >but of the more nerdy ones, I regret ever selling my Aquarius to finance >the purchase of my Apple ][+. I had all the peripherals for it >(including the thermal printer and datasette, and of course the expansion >module with controllers and a 4K RAM carthridge). I didn't have quite as much for it, probably. I had the mini-expander with controls, and four cassettes, which I think were D&D Treasures of Tarmin, Utopia, Night Stalker, and Biorhythms. I got Chess later as a gift. I didn't have the "official" data recorder, but I got a regular tape recorder to work once in a while for storage. I remember writing programs for it. I remember also typing in that what-seemed-so-long "Digital Clock" program from the manual. I left out all the REM statements because they were "optional," I thought from my programming experience and what the manual said. I didn't realize that all the branching statements went to those REM's. Eventually, I got it to work, and I thought it was really neat. I was easily entertained at age seven. When my parents' friends came over, their two kids and I had Utopia tournaments. Often, they got very mean, and we'd end up fighting because "you broke the agreement about not sinking my fishing boat," and one of us would retaliate by putting rebels on the other's island with all our money until the game got pointless because no one had anything left. I may still have the price list around somewhere - I know I had it a long time after buying anything would have been an option, but I don't know if it got thrown out or not. I bugged my parents about getting me a printer for it, but they never did, and I didn't have any money of my own (I was only between about six and eight). In my original list of computers, I forgot my Atari 2600, possibly because I didn't consider it a computer, but rather a video game machine. (Wasn't there a keyboard setup of some sort that you could get for it? I could be wrong about that.) I still have that at home, too. I don't remember all the games I had for it. I remember being really mad that the "Indy 500" "driving controls" wouldn't work as paddles with Warlords, and I never got the real paddle controls. I think we took Warlords back to the store. (I could, again, be mistaken about all these titles...) >Ahhhh, I miss those days. I hear ya! -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu http://www.wartburg.edu/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sun Jun 8 21:20:33 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > What was the serial number on the first Apple ][ computer? > > The answer is 2001. I guess no one cared. > Well I *was* going to say 0001 if that makes you feel better :) > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > Les From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 8 22:01:20 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: 8088s seattle comp. Message-ID: <199706090301.AA17358@world.std.com> > Yes, I've since seen the guts of a TI-99/4A. I ignored it for many years > since the time I first played with a TI-99/4 at the computer store in Las > Vegas, wrote a BASIC loop to count to a hundred and got there first > counting out loud. I've been shown since that the machine was reasonably > fast, as long as you avoided BASIC, but that was the only tool at the Basic was slow. But since I'd had the technico board for a few years before the TI99 I'd been into assembler. The TI9900 cpu is a bit slow as it was very memory intensive (registers AKA workspace was an allocated block of ram). IT was a real computer archetecture compared to the 8080. When compared to z80 at 2.5mhz or faster it was slower. But that was the spped they could get out of silicon and the ti99 tried to cost reduce it by narrowing the bus slowing it further. Still in many other ways it was a more sophisticated cpu with memory banking when that was rarely heard of. Allison From thedm at sunflower.com Sun Jun 8 22:52:41 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <199706090350.WAA03893@challenge.sunflower.com> I'f I remember correctly there was a "Keypad" that allowed you to enter BASIC code and a BASIC language cartridge. Seems I found the cartridge at a garage sale and used to have one, but could never find a working keypad. I have now abandoned the 2600 years ago in an attempt to get rid of some the toys I never "play" with anymore. I find myself re-buying many of the things i've sold. So my new rule is , unless I have two, I sell nothing. Bill ---------- > From: Andy Brobston > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Introduction > Date: Sunday, June 08, 1997 9:03 PM > > >My story mirrors yours. I, too, learned on the Aquarius, and I loved > >it. I then moved on to the Apple ][+. I have few regrets in my life, > >but of the more nerdy ones, I regret ever selling my Aquarius to finance > >the purchase of my Apple ][+. I had all the peripherals for it > >(including the thermal printer and datasette, and of course the expansion > >module with controllers and a 4K RAM carthridge). > > I didn't have quite as much for it, probably. I had the mini-expander > with controls, and four cassettes, which I think were D&D Treasures of > Tarmin, Utopia, Night Stalker, and Biorhythms. I got Chess later as a > gift. I didn't have the "official" data recorder, but I got a regular > tape recorder to work once in a while for storage. I remember writing > programs for it. I remember also typing in that what-seemed-so-long > "Digital Clock" program from the manual. I left out all the REM > statements because they were "optional," I thought from my programming > experience and what the manual said. I didn't realize that all the > branching statements went to those REM's. Eventually, I got it to > work, and I thought it was really neat. I was easily entertained at > age seven. When my parents' friends came over, their two kids and I > had Utopia tournaments. Often, they got very mean, and we'd end up > fighting because "you broke the agreement about not sinking my fishing > boat," and one of us would retaliate by putting rebels on the other's > island with all our money until the game got pointless because no one > had anything left. > > I may still have the price list around somewhere - I know I had it a > long time after buying anything would have been an option, but I don't > know if it got thrown out or not. I bugged my parents about getting me > a printer for it, but they never did, and I didn't have any money of > my own (I was only between about six and eight). > > In my original list of computers, I forgot my Atari 2600, possibly > because I didn't consider it a computer, but rather a video game > machine. (Wasn't there a keyboard setup of some sort that you could > get for it? I could be wrong about that.) I still have that at home, > too. I don't remember all the games I had for it. I remember being > really mad that the "Indy 500" "driving controls" wouldn't work as > paddles with Warlords, and I never got the real paddle controls. I > think we took Warlords back to the store. (I could, again, be mistaken > about all these titles...) > > >Ahhhh, I miss those days. > > I hear ya! > -- > Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu > http://www.wartburg.edu/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html > My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College > as a whole. From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 8 23:34:36 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <970608210312.20812178@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, Andy Brobston wrote: > tape recorder to work once in a while for storage. I remember writing > programs for it. I remember also typing in that what-seemed-so-long > "Digital Clock" program from the manual. I left out all the REM > statements because they were "optional," I thought from my programming Oh yeah, I vaguely remember typing that in as well. > age seven. When my parents' friends came over, their two kids and I > had Utopia tournaments. Often, they got very mean, and we'd end up > fighting because "you broke the agreement about not sinking my fishing > boat," and one of us would retaliate by putting rebels on the other's > island with all our money until the game got pointless because no one > had anything left. Heh. I loved that game. Hopefully I'll find it at a thrift store or flea market someday. I alwso had Snafu, but it wasn't nearly as cool as Utopia. > I may still have the price list around somewhere - I know I had it a > long time after buying anything would have been an option, but I don't > know if it got thrown out or not. I bugged my parents about getting me > a printer for it, but they never did, and I didn't have any money of > my own (I was only between about six and eight). The only reason I ended up with all the peripherals is because this kid around the corner from me had one with ALL the peripherals (his parents were pretty well off and he was spoiled) and I offered to buy it all off of him for all the money I had in my pocket ($36). It was a score. I got the actual computer and datasette from one of those timeshare dealies where they used to offer a free computer or free video game if you would just come down and look at their lovely timeshare villas. I managed to convince my parents it was a sweet deal for them to blow an hour of their time so that I could get a free computer. I wasn't joking, since with the money I make today from a career that had its roots in my Aquarius, I shower them with nice gifts once and a while. So parents, take heed! It WILL be worth it someday! > In my original list of computers, I forgot my Atari 2600, possibly > because I didn't consider it a computer, but rather a video game > machine. (Wasn't there a keyboard setup of some sort that you could > get for it? I could be wrong about that.) I still have that at home, Yes there was. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From rws at eagle.ais.net Mon Jun 9 00:03:39 1997 From: rws at eagle.ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Dead PET for free In-Reply-To: from Sam Ismail at "May 22, 97 09:41:48 am" Message-ID: <199706090503.AAA00327@eagle.ais.net> For those who'd like to know, this machine has been saved from the dumpster and is in my living room. (I don't think it's so dead- it looks like a monitor problem to me.) This guy was close enough I drove over and picked it up this morning, along with a C=4040 disk drive. Can anyone tell me anything about this, as I am not a Commodore enthusiast? > I have a C=PET 4016 here that is in a serious state of disrepair. When I got > it, it wasn't working and I tried to fix it up to no avail. In it's current > state, it's little more than a big metal & plastic paperweight to me. I'm > GIVING IT AWAY (You pay S&H) to anyone on one condition: That you try to fix > 'er up or use the parts to fix another commodore computer. I don't want to > see this go to the dumpster, folks. It deserves better. Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From hans1 at filan00.grenoble.hp.com Mon Jun 9 00:46:37 1997 From: hans1 at filan00.grenoble.hp.com (Hans Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Chisolm Message-ID: <339B98BD.71E9@filan00.grenoble.hp.com> On Fri, 6 Jun 1997 Marvin Johnston wrote : > Wow, I think I am beginning to like this listserver! Only just beginning ;-) > It has an LCD screen with a decent keyboard on it. So far so good... > The size is approximately 12" wide x 8" > deep x 5" high and the LCD screen folds up typical of a portable. > It has a couple of standard bus size cards (one is missing) but uses > the header type connector (2 x 50?) instead of the gold fingers to > plug into the backplane. Nope, not a Gavilan which was was only a couple of inches tall and had no internal slots (for cards at least). > If this is a Gavilan, are docs, schematics, and parts still available? I doubt it, there used to be quite an active Gavilan group in Silicon Valley many years ago and if anyone has need I can try and dredge up some long forgotten names... Hans B Pufal From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 9 00:50:23 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Misc. References: <199706082113.24223@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <339B999F.125D@rain.org> A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > > > Ok, you have just put us all to eternal shame. Do you have a list of all > > > you've got? cuz I'm entirely interested to know. Or perhaps just an > > > excerpt of your more rare systems. Where the hell do you store it all? > > Wow.... This lot totally dwarfs my little collection (I think I have about > 150 machines, including calculators, but excluding interesting > peripherals), and I thought I was doing pretty well! 150 computers is doing VERY well, I just have a lot of friends who found a suc, er, someone to take the stuff so they don't have to throw it away :). Yesterday, another friend gave me a C64, disk drive, and color monitor. I started collecting sometime about 1986 and was fortunate in having quite a few friends in the computer business as well as space to store the stuff. Additionally, I help a local private school put on a "Computer Rummage Sale" and end up with a lot of stuff they couldn't sell. Hope I haven't given you the impression I am a junk collector :). On a more serious note, there is also a local Classic Computer club with a small (a dozen or so) but devoted membership who are extremely knowledgeable about a wide range of the older computers. From that group, I was given a couple of Jonos computers, TRS Model 4, a Smoke Signal Broadcasting BFD-16, an Altos system, and a number of other computers. I also have three other friends who, like myself, are interested in putting together a computer museum. The biggest problem is financing such a venture since to do a professional job, we would most likely need at least 5000 sq ft of building. > > > the earliest is probably the PDP 8i, and PDP 11/05. Of course the Mits > > Do you have any other minis? I find them a lot more interesting than > micros, as I think I've mentioned before, since you can actually > understand how the CPU works at gate level. > I have a bit of DEC stuff including a Minc (I think that is the correct spelling) that I have no idea what it was used for, a couple of 11/23s, and at least one 11/34. There is also a Kennedy Disk Unit, a 470 MB Hard Disk (probably for the Dec stuff) that is a rack mount, and a bunch of spare M and K series interface boards. One thing I am *really* glad now that I didn't get rid of are the engineering drawings and maintenance manuals for the PDP 8i, PDP 16, PDP 11/05, PDP 11/45, and some of the perpherals (RK05 disk unit and ???? memory). I spent about 6 weeks or so up at DEC in the early 70's and was able to get documentation for the things I was working on. > A tip : Get known where you work (and at church, clubs, etc) as somebody > who wants old computer and electronic 'junk'. It's amazing what you get > given - several times people have said 'Oh, we're about to throw this out, > do you want it' where 'this' is a complete computer system with all > manuals. > I am "known" :). That is the way I have gotten most of the stuff I have. Occassionally, I'll actually buy something (like the mint Xerox 820-II) but I try to avoid that if possible. I tend to overdo whatever I get into and I still have a 10 or so coin ops that I am starting to try and get rid of. At one time, I had about 50 of them and I wasn't even in the business! When people had machines that didn't work, I ended up with them. Of course, being able to repair them made things easier :). > > Another thing I am looking for are the docs and schematics for the Zenith > > H-67 Hard Disk sub-system used with the H-89. The H-67 has a bad power > > supply board, and without the schematics, it is a bit hard to > > troubleshoot. > > Power supplies are either linear or switchers. Linears are next-to-trivial > to sort out (at least if they use any of the standard regulator IC's), and > switching units can be repaired. If it was just that, it would be easy, but I think the HD and Floppy controllers are built onto the same board. As I recall, it is not a switcher but rather a linear type supply. I started into it a few years ago and decided at that time to wait until schematics were available. From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Mon Jun 9 02:10:51 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic Message-ID: <339BAC7B.6B4E@oboe.calpoly.edu> I apologize if this is a repeat question but I can't seem to find the previous post. What were the solutions to removing yellowing from the plastic cases? I bought a printer that looks terrible. Not sure what caused it so any suggestions helpful at this point. thanks, Greg From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 9 08:52:51 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Misc. In-Reply-To: <339B999F.125D@rain.org>; from "Marvin" at Jun 08, 97 10:50 pm Message-ID: <199706090752.14637@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > > > > > > Ok, you have just put us all to eternal shame. Do you have a list of all > > > > you've got? cuz I'm entirely interested to know. Or perhaps just an > > > > excerpt of your more rare systems. Where the hell do you store it all? > > > > Wow.... This lot totally dwarfs my little collection (I think I have about > > 150 machines, including calculators, but excluding interesting > > peripherals), and I thought I was doing pretty well! > > 150 computers is doing VERY well, I just have a lot of friends who found Yeah, but I have been doing this seriously for just over 11 years (started 24th May 1986), and had a few machines before that. Needless to say I'm not going to stop collecting, hacking and enjoying these machines just because somebody else has more CPUs that I do. > a suc, er, someone to take the stuff so they don't have to throw it away :-). 'Unfortunately' most of my friends are also computer collectors, which means that I don't get offered fun toys that they happen to have. Of course the toys _are_ being preserved and used, which is a good thing. > :). Yesterday, another friend gave me a C64, disk drive, and color > monitor. I started collecting sometime about 1986 and was fortunate in > having quite a few friends in the computer business as well as space to > store the stuff. Additionally, I help a local private school put on a > "Computer Rummage Sale" and end up with a lot of stuff they couldn't > sell. Hope I haven't given you the impression I am a junk collector :). What's wrong with being a 'junk collector'? One of my first actions on getting this job was finding out what the policy was on raiding the skip (dumpster) (It was a 'free for all' - grab what you want..) and getting known by all those responsible for throwing stuff out... > On a more serious note, there is also a local Classic Computer club with > a small (a dozen or so) but devoted membership who are extremely > knowledgeable about a wide range of the older computers. From that > group, I was given a couple of Jonos computers, TRS Model 4, a Smoke > Signal Broadcasting BFD-16, an Altos system, and a number of other > computers. I also have three other friends who, like myself, are > interested in putting together a computer museum. The biggest problem > is financing such a venture since to do a professional job, we would > most likely need at least 5000 sq ft of building. Yep, that's something I ought to think of doing. Finding a building is a big problem, and finding the money to buy it is even worse, but at least I have the exhibits :-) > > > > > > the earliest is probably the PDP 8i, and PDP 11/05. Of course the Mits > > > > Do you have any other minis? I find them a lot more interesting than > > micros, as I think I've mentioned before, since you can actually > > understand how the CPU works at gate level. > > > > I have a bit of DEC stuff including a Minc (I think that is the correct > spelling) that I have no idea what it was used for, a couple of 11/23s, MINC = Modular INstrument Computer - basically a PDP11/03 or PDP11/23 controlled data logger. A very curious machine > and at least one 11/34. There is also a Kennedy Disk Unit, a 470 MB > Hard Disk (probably for the Dec stuff) that is a rack mount, and a bunch > of spare M and K series interface boards. One thing I am *really* glad Never had any K series. Got a large box (well, multiple boxes...) of R,S,B,G,A,M,W boards, though. I've also got the test boards, extenders, etc for repairing these machines (I got invited to clear a room that was used for 'self-maintenance' on PDP11's, and got a lot of fun toys as a result...) > now that I didn't get rid of are the engineering drawings and > maintenance manuals for the PDP 8i, PDP 16, PDP 11/05, PDP 11/45, and Those manuals are _very_ interesting, and _nothing_ would separate me from my pile of them -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 9 08:55:27 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: <339BAC7B.6B4E@oboe.calpoly.edu>; from "Greg Mast" at Jun 09, 97 12:10 (midnight) Message-ID: <199706090755.14650@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > I apologize if this is a repeat question but I can't seem to find the > previous post. > > What were the solutions to removing yellowing from the plastic cases? I > bought a printer that looks terrible. Not sure what caused it so any > suggestions helpful at this point. It's not (IMHO) always possible. If the yellowing is due to the previous owner smoking, then often a good clean-up (Electrolube foam cleaner is good here) will get it looking like new. Alas, the plastic used by a lot of manufacturers (DEC, for one) actually yellows with age and sunlight, and I've never managed to reverse it. Maybe lightly sanding the surface would help, but it would remove any labels and surface texture, and would be a lot of work. > > thanks, > > Greg > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Jun 9 07:38:14 1997 From: djenner at halcyon.com (Dave Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic References: <339BAC7B.6B4E@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <339BEB26.DC4@halcyon.com> Greg, I have found that a biodegradable solvent called "Citra-Solv" works well for most high-quality plastic cases. It's pretty potent stuff used full strength, so the trick is to put it on a cloth and rub down the case and then to clean it off with water. You probably want to use rubber gloves. If the case is really plastic, and not painted, it takes off the outer film. (If you leave it on full strength, it will dissolve the plastic!) You want to do just enough and not too much. Most cases come out looking new. Dave Greg Mast wrote: > > I apologize if this is a repeat question but I can't seem to find the > previous post. > > What were the solutions to removing yellowing from the plastic cases? I > bought a printer that looks terrible. Not sure what caused it so any > suggestions helpful at this point. > > thanks, > > Greg From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Mon Jun 9 08:34:42 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: old hardware Message-ID: <199706091334.JAA06285@wincom.net> Last fall I was given the remains of something(?) from a local municipal office. It has been in my garage all winter, and since our Canadian weather has finally warmed up a bit, I went out to have a look. The only identification that I can reach is on the two drives which are a few hundred pounds each and are Century Data Systems Model T80 A's. Can anyone tell me anything about them? There is also another rack about the same size, but it is buried in other junk and is not accessable. The deal also included a Calcomp 1041 plotter which runs the test plot, but doesn't want to talk to my Windows 95/486. Regards Charlie Fox From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 9 09:55:17 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Misc. Message-ID: <199706091455.AA26257@world.std.com> > I have a bit of DEC stuff including a Minc (I think that is the correct > spelling) that I have no idea what it was used for, a couple of 11/23s, Labratory computer designed for easy interface to programable instruments and other experiments. Allison From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jun 9 10:47:24 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970609085112.3d571966@ricochet.net> At 11:43 PM 6/8/97 +0100, you wrote: >>This weekend was pretty quiet, though I did pick up a couple >>ColecoVision cartridges, including 'Turbo' with the 'Expansion Module I managed to pick up an "HP Touch Accessory" (a touch screen add-on) new in the box and (though it's not really a computer) an Interactive Network console also in the box. I'm happy to find this list too! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 9 11:49:41 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: old hardware In-Reply-To: <199706091334.JAA06285@wincom.net> from "Charles E. Fox" at Jun 9, 97 09:34:42 am Message-ID: <9706091549.AA13766@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 798 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970609/5d02b083/attachment-0001.ksh From william at ans.net Mon Jun 9 11:32:50 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: 8088s seattle comp. In-Reply-To: <199706081730.AA01490@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199706091632.AA10529@interlock.ans.net> > > computers showed up where you didn't have to count the pins on the CPU, > > specifically the TRS-80 (later renamed the Model One). I remember the > > first time I looked down into a Model 16 and saw the MC68000 and wondered > > why the hell that thing wasn't climbing up the side of the Empire State > > Building. > > What you missed was the ti9900 chip that was 3 years older and also 64 pins. > FYI the ti9900 chips was a 16bit cpu! Some ASICs were put into 64 pin DIPs in the late 1970s as well. Of course, all of this 64 pin package talk pales in light of some IBM mainframes at the time, sporting Thermal Conduction Modules (air or water cooled multichip packages) with 800 to 900 pins jammed in a 9 square inch footprint. William Donzelli william@ans.net From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 9 11:44:52 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051B94B4@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Yellowing may be irreversible. I've been thinking of removing all electronics from a case, and soaking it in dilute bleach solution overnight. I did find a great method for removing permanent marker from textured plastic. Cameo copper cleaner powder works great and doesn't harm the texture. For other stains, I use a Scotch Brite pad of the type that says it's safe on fiberglass. I'd sure like to find a good method for cleaning keyboards. Kai > ---------- > From: Greg Mast[SMTP:gmast@polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, June 09, 1997 12:10 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Cleaning Plastic > > I apologize if this is a repeat question but I can't seem to find the > previous post. > > What were the solutions to removing yellowing from the plastic cases? > I > bought a printer that looks terrible. Not sure what caused it so any > suggestions helpful at this point. > > thanks, > > Greg > From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 9 11:50:02 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: How to read/write TRS-80 diskettes from PC? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051B94C1@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Does anyone know how to read/write TRS-80 Model I format diskettes with a PC? I have a CompatiCard II and a Copy II Option Board. I assume the Option Board is able to copy TRS-80 diskettes (I hope, just got it this weekend and haven't tried yet) but I need to actually write files. Sydex 22Disk appears to support only CP/M formats. Any ideas? thanks Kai From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon Jun 9 12:00:18 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:16 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: <199706090755.14650@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: I've always just used those blue brillo pad thingys. They generally do well at taking off a bunch of hard to remove stuff (tape spooge, stains, etc.) Sometimes when I'm REALLY bored I take the keyboard apart (keycaps, etc.) and scrub them up too. Real satisfying to see a 12 year old machine look like new... Les From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 9 12:54:03 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051B94B4@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Yellowing may be irreversible. I've been thinking of removing all > electronics from a case, and soaking it in dilute bleach solution > overnight. > > I did find a great method for removing permanent marker from textured > plastic. Cameo copper cleaner powder works great and doesn't harm the > texture. Hmmm, sounds good. Where can we find this? I usually just scrub it off with a Scotch abrasive wash sponge, but of course this mars the surface, although not horribly. I'm experimenting with a cleaner right now based on orange citrus juices called Amazing Orange or something silly. It lifts grease off like THAT! And I mean like THAT! The most common application for me is some thrift stores mark the prices on units with grease pens. This takes it right off, in a FLASH! And I mean in a FLASH! I bought this stuff from a home&garden show. I'll get the real name and an ordering address if anyone wants to try it. Its sorta expensive though. > I'd sure like to find a good method for cleaning keyboards. Aha! I just came up with a great method. Go out and get yourself a medium-stiff bristled plastic brush, with at least 1 inch bristles. Then apply your favorite cleaning agent, such as Formula 409 or what have you (I use an Amway product called L.O.C. which works great) and scrub in a circular motion. The keys shouldn't be harmed physically as long as you don't jam the brush into them and after a short while all the dirt on top as well as around the keys will be lifted. Of course, you still have to deal with all the crap tucked away under the keys, and there's no way around this other than to lift all the keys out and then clean the under-surface. I did this with a grungy-assed Apple //e keyboard the other day and it came out looking fresh. Bill mentions sticking a keyboard in a dishwasher. Bill, I assume you've done this, and it's OK? I would think that with the heat of drying and all it would kill the components. > > Kai > > > ---------- > > From: Greg Mast[SMTP:gmast@polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu] > > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > Sent: Monday, June 09, 1997 12:10 AM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: Cleaning Plastic > > > > I apologize if this is a repeat question but I can't seem to find the > > previous post. > > > > What were the solutions to removing yellowing from the plastic cases? > > I > > bought a printer that looks terrible. Not sure what caused it so any > > suggestions helpful at this point. > > > > thanks, > > > > Greg > > > Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 9 12:56:28 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > I've always just used those blue brillo pad thingys. They generally do > well at taking off a bunch of hard to remove stuff (tape spooge, stains, > etc.) Sometimes when I'm REALLY bored I take the keyboard apart (keycaps, > etc.) and scrub them up too. Real satisfying to see a 12 year old machine > look like new... Regarding "tape spooge" (what a great moniker, if not gross) this is the bane of my existence. I hate that shit. I went out and got some stuff called Goof Off from Home Depot which was supposed to do away with that stuff but it didn't work very well. I didn't try it on anything metal yet, but most of my problems are with people putting velcro with the sticky backs on plastic cases. I tried cleaning some plastic with tape spooge on it and it just melted the damn thing. Anyone have any ideas? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 9 14:25:04 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 9, 97 10:56:28 am Message-ID: <9706091825.AA05438@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 999 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970609/94805377/attachment-0001.ksh From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 9 13:34:54 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic Message-ID: <199706091832.NAA20541@challenge.sunflower.com> I've found that instead of bug and tar remover, I use charcoal starter. Originally I used this on my car, at .79cents vs 3.bucks. Works well on machines too. To remove stenciling on computers I use fingernail polish remover, BUT DON'T get it on printed LOGOS! Bill ---------- > From: Tim Shoppa > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Cleaning Plastic > Date: Monday, June 09, 1997 2:25 PM > > > Regarding "tape spooge" (what a great moniker, if not gross) this is the > > bane of my existence. I hate that shit. I went out and got some stuff > > called Goof Off from Home Depot which was supposed to do away with that > > stuff but it didn't work very well. I didn't try it on anything metal > > yet, but most of my problems are with people putting velcro with the > > sticky backs on plastic cases. I tried cleaning some plastic with tape > > spooge on it and it just melted the damn thing. Anyone have any ideas? > > I've got a bottle of stuff labeled "Bug and Tar remover" that seems to > work just fine for me. I bought it several years ago, and it's > chock-full of all sorts of hydrocarbons and ketones. If environmental > regulations haven't completely banned the sale of this stuff, I'd > expect you can still find it in automotive stores. > > Many of the fluorocarbon-based cleaners did a better job on sticker > residue, but these are all but impossible to get anymore. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Jun 9 14:08:15 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970609150815.00a5db30@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Sam Ismail said: >Regarding "tape spooge" (what a great moniker, if not gross) this is the >bane of my existence. I hate that shit. I went out and got some stuff >called Goof Off from Home Depot which was supposed to do away with that >stuff but it didn't work very well. I didn't try it on anything metal >yet, but most of my problems are with people putting velcro with the >sticky backs on plastic cases. I tried cleaning some plastic with tape >spooge on it and it just melted the damn thing. Anyone have any ideas? I have a great idea... I have been working on refurbishing several Tandy 200 laptops for a friend, and one of the laptops had about a dozen stickers on it (including bumper stickers -- the worst! ;-( ) ... a few stickers came off, but most left "sticker tracks". I went down to my local hardware, and bought a quart of straight Naphtha. =$2.79 locally= (It's a component of lighter fluid...) It is *highly* -- I say again -- *highly* flammable. So flammable, *thinking* about having a cigarette will touch this stuff off. But: It doesn't melt plastic (well, maybe if you soaked it overnight or somesuch foolish thing) and neutralizes tape spooge (one of my favorite "words," BTW) in the blink of an eye! The fumes are kinda harmful, and it evaporates so quickly it will suck the moisture from your hands (those with sensitive skin, wear rubber gloves) so don't leave the cap off for a weekend in the basement... you'll be greeted with a highly explosive basement and no mo naphtha. This is one of the few solvents that easily dissolves wax (candle, paraffin, and others) and I learned about it while learning to make candles. It works good for clear wax as well, but it won't get a stain from the dye out, that I've ever seen. So it may work well on removing grease pencil wax, but if the dye in the grease pencil has stained the plastic, try another of the fine suggestions here. Sam, Regarding your post about L.O.C. (which stands for Liquid Organic Cleaner, BTW, and was Amway's first product over 35 years ago) do you dilute it first (as per instructions?) L.O.C. mixed 1:1 (water:LOC) is also good at getting crayon off of walls (as always, hope there's decent quality paint when kids are around) and mixed 2:1 works great for getting the green gunk out of the grooves of your golf clubs! Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 9 14:36:54 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Teaneck Findings Message-ID: <199706091936.AA19825@world.std.com> > > > DEC KBD01 - a true whatsit - 8085 based, in one of the LSI-11/2 deskto > > > boxes, RS-232 (maybe) and another D connector on back. Any clues? I > > > no clue. (I purchased this as well) > > > > IF the box is a BDV11VA (or that size 13x12x4.5) it's a remote diagnosti > > port. Plugs in to the console port and does a modem link for remote use. > > For VAXen with that Remote Diagnostic Module? For late PDP-11s/vax11s and it plugged into the console port and subbed for same. By doing that all boot console functions were available even if the system was otherwise down. Not all PDPs supported this. An old item. Allison From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 9 14:47:23 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Removing adhesive (RE: Cleaning Plastic) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051CF20D@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I recommend "3M General Purpose Adhesive Remover", which is inexpensive and comes in a red and white quart-size can that will last you until roughly the year 2020. Some hardware stores carry it, but it's most reliably found at an auto paint supply store (check your local yellow pages). I once used this stuff to remove an entire vinyl top from a '68 Chevy, so I can tell you it really does work, and does not appear to harm either your skin or any kind of plastic. Doesn't smell very bad, and isn't highly flammable. In response to an earlier question, Cameo copper cleaner can be found in most any grocery store or general goods store. Kai > ---------- > From: Sam Ismail[SMTP:dastar@crl.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, June 09, 1997 10:56 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Cleaning Plastic > > On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > > I've always just used those blue brillo pad thingys. They generally > do > > well at taking off a bunch of hard to remove stuff (tape spooge, > stains, > > etc.) Sometimes when I'm REALLY bored I take the keyboard apart > (keycaps, > > etc.) and scrub them up too. Real satisfying to see a 12 year old > machine > > look like new... > > Regarding "tape spooge" (what a great moniker, if not gross) this is > the > bane of my existence. I hate that shit. I went out and got some > stuff > called Goof Off from Home Depot which was supposed to do away with > that > stuff but it didn't work very well. I didn't try it on anything metal > > yet, but most of my problems are with people putting velcro with the > sticky backs on plastic cases. I tried cleaning some plastic with > tape > spooge on it and it just melted the damn thing. Anyone have any > ideas? > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, > Writer, Jackass > From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 8 18:57:11 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius Message-ID: Of course, Sam and others have taken to talking about the Mattel Aquarius lately, but I've never seen a mention of the Radofin version, which other than the lack of 'Mattel' logos and the change to the model number and label on the bottom of the machine, is identical. Were many of them sold? Does anyone else out there have one? About all I've been able to learn is that since Radofin was the actual manufacturer of both versions, they continued to produce it for an unknown length of time after Mattel dropped it from their line. There's not even a mention of it on any of the Aquarius references on the web. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Coleco ADAM, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, Model 4, and Model 4P, plus Odyssey2, Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 9 15:01:45 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: How to read/write TRS-80 diskettes from PC? Message-ID: <199706092001.AA19197@world.std.com> > Does anyone know how to read/write TRS-80 Model I format diskettes with > a PC? > > I have a CompatiCard II and a Copy II Option Board. I assume the Option > Board is able to copy TRS-80 diskettes (I hope, just got it this weekend > and haven't tried yet) but I need to actually write files. Sydex 22Disk > appears to support only CP/M formats. TRS-80 disks are single density, single sided, soft sector non-cpm unless after market cpm is installed. The original disk controller was wd1771. There is two form to trs-80 disks those from TRSDOS and those from DiskBASIC. As far as I remember(18 years!) they were compatble with each other. Their structure was very unlike CP/M and it used a FAT style of directory. Now to add to the pain, there were various mods that allowed for double density and even two sided disk drives. If so the controller was wd1793 in the form of a piggy back card. Knowing the controller used is important as some of the system out there created disk formats that are completely unreadable by anything other than a system with 1771/1793! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 9 15:01:53 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Cleaning boards/keyboards Message-ID: <199706092001.AA19349@world.std.com> > Bill mentions sticking a keyboard in a dishwasher. Bill, I assume you've > done this, and it's OK? I would think that with the heat of drying and > all it would kill the components. Over the years I've done this to de-crud boards, keyboards and equipment dropped in salt water. Water generally will not harm electronics save for stuff made of paper liek speakers. The real problem is insuring it is completely dry after cleaning. A warm, under 180F oven works for this. Removing keycaps and the like first is a good thing. Also some keyboards by their contruction will trap water if it gets in and baking it out is the only way short of sometimes destructive disassembly. FYI, water gets coffee out the best if there ie a small amout of soap to break surface tension. Try to use soaps that are not chemically active and corrosion forming. Woolite is good in the sink for this and most dishwasher soaps are ok. Logic boards like DEC modules, motherboards and the like clean well in the dishwasher. I've done boards in the sink with a soft bristle brush and woolite and dried them by blotting with several paper towels and oven dry. The sometimes look better than new. Remember (not a joke!) Rinse well when doing this. FYI: resist the temptation to vacuum as the moving air can cause static charges that can do subtle and long term damage to ICs, even ttl. Dishwasing is actually safer. Allison From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 9 21:26:14 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: How to read/write TRS-80 diskettes from PC? In-Reply-To: <199706092001.AA19197@world.std.com>; from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 9, 97 4:01 pm Message-ID: <199706092026.2695@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > TRS-80 disks are single density, single sided, soft sector non-cpm unless > after market cpm is installed. The original disk controller was wd1771. > > There is two form to trs-80 disks those from TRSDOS and those from > DiskBASIC. As far as I remember(18 years!) they were compatble with each > other. Their structure was very unlike CP/M and it used a FAT style of > directory. As I remember it : Model 1 : Single sided, single density, using an FD1771 controller. The default was 35 tracks, but some aftermarket DOS's (LDOS, NewDOS, etc) allowed you to have 40 (or 80 if you could afford better drives). TRS-DOS used a special data marker on the directory cylinder only. Just about the only thing that could write them was the 1771. Most 'Double Density kits' (a kludge board which held a 179x controller + support devices) retained the 1771 just to write these markers. LDOS, etc used normal markers on all cylinders, and were generally easier to read on other machines. Model 3/4 (Same controller). Single Sided, Double Denisty, 1793 controller. The Address markers were now normal on all cylinders (note, a model 3 or 4 couldn't write a model 1 TRS-DOS disk!). 3rd party DOS's were generally more compatable between the M1 and M3 than TRS-DOS was. Disk Basic didn't really come into it - Basic was just a program that ran under TRS-DOS (and used the ROM basic a lot), and used (AFAIK) normal TRS-DOS calls for disk I/O I'll mention the CoCo as well - this used a 1793 or 1773 controller chip, and double density recording. Although all CoCo disk controllers could read/write each others disks, there were OS considerations to worry about. The disk controller cartridge contained a set of extensions to Basic to allow it to load and save files to disk. Alas, Tandy didn't document the disk I/O calls (apart from read/write sector), so it was difficult to use the disk from application programs. There was a thing called colour TRS-DOS which was used by a lot of Tandy-supplied applications (Color Scripsit, EDTASM, etc) which provided a standard set of file handling calls - from memory the source to this is in the EDTASM manual. Fortunately, the disks for colour TRS-DOS and those for plain disk basic were 100% compatable. Serious users ran OS-9, which had a somewhat unix-like file system. Needless to say, it was incompatible with disk basic, although there was an OS-9 utility to read disk basic disks. All TRS-DOS's (M1, M3, Colour, etc) put the directory cylinder near the middle of the disk (cylinder 17 on a 35 track disk). The directory had 2 other tables associated with it - the GAT (Granule Allocation Table - a granule was the smallest thing you could allocate, and was 1/2 or 1/3 of a track), and the HIT (Hash Index Table - filenames were hashed (using some algorithm that I've long forgotten), and then the result was used to speed up directory searches). Since the TRS-DOS directory was near the middle of the disk, and the OS-9 one (like unix) was at the start, it was possible to create a CoCo disk with both OS-9 and disk basic files on it. You had to be careful to create dummy files that covered the areas used by the other OS, but it was done, even by Tandy, who supplied some TRS-DOS utilities on the OS-9 level 2 disks (and then forgot to mention this in the manual....) If anyone has a model 1 still working, boot up TRS-DOS 2.3 (the standard one), and at the prompt type BOOT/SYS.WHO (or should it be RUN BOOT/SYS.WHO ?). Do not press enter yet. Now hold down 2,4,6 with one hand and press enter. The result is quite interesting. Explaining _why_ it happens, and the history behind it is something you can pester me for sometime... > > Now to add to the pain, there were various mods that allowed for double > density and even two sided disk drives. If so the controller was wd1793 The doublesided mods tended to use the 3rd drive select line as a side select line, and could (in theory) be used on a single-density-only model 1 > in the form of a piggy back card. > > Knowing the controller used is important as some of the system out there > created disk formats that are completely unreadable by anything other than > a system with 1771/1793! -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 9 15:30:15 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970609150815.00a5db30@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I went down to my local hardware, and bought a quart of straight Naphtha. > =$2.79 locally= (It's a component of lighter fluid...) It is *highly* -- I > say again -- *highly* flammable. So flammable, *thinking* about having a > cigarette will touch this stuff off. > > The fumes are kinda harmful, and it evaporates so quickly it will suck the > moisture from your hands (those with sensitive skin, wear rubber gloves) so > don't leave the cap off for a weekend in the basement... you'll be greeted > with a highly explosive basement and no mo naphtha. Sounds good. I'll have to go out and get me some. And maybe I'll use it to clean my computers with too. :) > the dye out, that I've ever seen. So it may work well on removing grease > pencil wax, but if the dye in the grease pencil has stained the plastic, > try another of the fine suggestions here. Like I said about this citrus orange cleaner, it does the trick. Naphta sounds fun though, and it would be cool to say also, if it wasn't a synonym for a trade agreement acronym. > Sam, > Regarding your post about L.O.C. (which stands for Liquid Organic Cleaner, > BTW, and was Amway's first product over 35 years ago) do you dilute it > first (as per instructions?) > > L.O.C. mixed 1:1 (water:LOC) is also good at getting crayon off of walls > (as always, hope there's decent quality paint when kids are around) and > mixed 2:1 works great for getting the green gunk out of the grooves of your > golf clubs! I used it from a spray bottle which has a dial where you can adjust the dilution anywhere from pure water to pure LOC. I normally have it on 3 or 4, which is 1:1 (water/LOC) and like .5:1 respectively. Too much LOC just makes it too soapy. It seems you definitely need the water for a good cleaning solution, although soaking in LOC sometimes does wonders. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Jun 9 15:52:42 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: <199705301240.9935@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 1997 (eons and eons ago), A.R. Duell wrote: > > Does the PS/2 not have any 5.25" drive bays? Weird. :) I'm not an IBMer > > so I don't know these things, though I *think* one of the machines I used > > to do CAD work on was a PS/2 of some flavour. > > No, AFAIK the PS/2 cases had (special!) 3.5" bays only. Brilliant. :) Reminds me of the "special" PCMCIA slot on my A1200, but I guess that couldn't have been avoided. > If it's the same as the XT external floppy connector (and I think it is!), > the 34 wires of the standard floppy connector are connected to the > 'bottom' (higher numbered) pins on the 37 pin D plug. Pins 1,2,20 are no > connection, pin 3 is wire 2, pin 4 is wire 4, pin 5 is wire 6, etc. Pins > 21-37 are all grounded. > > It's a standard DC37 connector, available from any good electronics parts > place, I think. You can get solder, PCB mount or IDC versions. Excellent! Thanks for the info! As I said earlier, I have a use for this drive, but I don't really want to modify it. Hopefully I'll be able to feed a ribbon cable with the 37-pin D connector on it out of my Amiga's Sidecar. I hope there wouldn't be problems with noise, etc, over lengthy cabling? I also wouldn't mind using it as an external 5.25" drive for my Amigas, but I guess that would take some added trickery. > > Heh. I couldn't even get mine apart, because of the two six-pointed > > screws on the bottom. The screws have a lump in the middle so I can't use > > a flat-blade screwdriver as I did when I had a similar problem opening my > > Mac 512K. > > Tamperproof TORX screws. Drivers for them are available from good tool > shops in the UK - I have a reasonably complete set to deal with such > things... Well, I haven't seen any around here (Canada) but perhaps I haven't been looking hard enough. I also haven't been trying to get the drive open because other things have come up. It's funny how I can be out of school for the summer, unemployed, and STILL not have enough time for all the stuff I want to do. > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 9 16:55:23 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 9, 97 01:30:15 pm Message-ID: <9706092055.AA12944@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 375 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970609/87fc31c5/attachment-0001.ksh From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 9 15:40:08 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Removing adhesive (RE: Cleaning Plastic) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051CF20D@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > I recommend "3M General Purpose Adhesive Remover", which is inexpensive > and comes in a red and white quart-size can that will last you until > roughly the year 2020. Some hardware stores carry it, but it's most > reliably found at an auto paint supply store (check your local yellow > pages). > > In response to an earlier question, Cameo copper cleaner can be found in > most any grocery store or general goods store. Ok, there have been so many cleansers thrown around in the last 12 hours that I think its time to compile a list of these with their respective uses and throw it in the FAQ. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 9 22:03:54 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: ; from "Doug Spence" at Jun 9, 97 4:52 pm Message-ID: <199706092103.4604@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > If it's the same as the XT external floppy connector (and I think it is!), > > the 34 wires of the standard floppy connector are connected to the > > 'bottom' (higher numbered) pins on the 37 pin D plug. Pins 1,2,20 are no > > connection, pin 3 is wire 2, pin 4 is wire 4, pin 5 is wire 6, etc. Pins > > 21-37 are all grounded. > > > > It's a standard DC37 connector, available from any good electronics parts > > place, I think. You can get solder, PCB mount or IDC versions. > > Excellent! Thanks for the info! As I said earlier, I have a use for this > drive, but I don't really want to modify it. Hopefully I'll be able to > feed a ribbon cable with the 37-pin D connector on it out of my Amiga's > Sidecar. If you have got a standard 34 wire floppy cable (that will link to a normal PC drive), you can crimp an IDC DC37-S connector on to it (insert the cable so that pins 1,2,20 have no wires on them), and the plug the drive in. Apart from drive select and motor run signal problems (the 'PC twist' is the root of these), it should work fine. > > I hope there wouldn't be problems with noise, etc, over lengthy cabling? Well, at one time floppy cables were properly terminated (a 150 Ohm resistor pack in the drive furthest from the controller), and could be quite long. Alas, termination was considered too hard for the average user, so modern drives have 1k pull-ups (they are in no sense terminators), and nothing else. They may therefore fail to work on long cables. If you are feeling hackish, you might try adding some 150 Ohm termination resistors to the last drive on the cable (or replacing the 1k ones, which may well be microscopic SMD ones, alas) and seeing if that helps. > > > Heh. I couldn't even get mine apart, because of the two six-pointed > > > screws on the bottom. The screws have a lump in the middle so I can't use > > > a flat-blade screwdriver as I did when I had a similar problem opening my > > > Mac 512K. > > > > Tamperproof TORX screws. Drivers for them are available from good tool > > shops in the UK - I have a reasonably complete set to deal with such > > things... > > Well, I haven't seen any around here (Canada) but perhaps I haven't been > looking hard enough. I also haven't been trying to get the drive open > because other things have come up. I did say _good_ tool shops. I know perhaps 4 places in the UK (There are obviously more) that keep them, and an awful lot that don't. I've lost count of the number of different 'unscrewing tools' I use - but it's a rather large number. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Jun 9 16:08:57 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970530090544.009266e0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >OK, that makes it useful. Would you happen to know what the pinout is of > >the 37-pin connector, so that I can try to make use of the drive without > >modification? Is it even possible to buy a matching female 37-pin > >connector? > > IIRC, it's just straight thru with the last/first 3 pins unused... but I'd > have to look at the cable or ring some pins to be sure (and yes, I'm a > packrat...). Aren't we all? Heck, I know my place is getting more and more congested with stuff. I've got old computer books all over my floor, along with some boxed Intellivision carts, a small 5-slot S-100 motherboard I picked up a week ago, and a boxed, complete Odyssey system (the original one) I haven't found room for anywhere else yet. (I'm not really into game systems, but I keep finding them and saying to myself 'I wonder if this is cool' and leaving with them.) Anyway, eventually I'll get around to building an extension cable for that drive. :) > All CoCo controllers take Shugart standard drives (now called IBM standard > drives... IBM's taking over again!) altho RSDOS limits you to 35 tracks, > SSDD, 156K disks (the original Shugart drives) without patches... which (of > course) I have. RSDOS can handle a max of 2 DSDD 80 track drives with > patches (more accurately... they look like 4 SSDD 80 track drives, with :2 > the backside of :0 and :3 the backside of :1) but 1.44Meg storage thru > RSDOS is really good! OS-9 can handle 3 DSDD 80trk drives! OS-9 is one OS I've been wanting to see running. Hopefully I can find a CoCo controller or two to plug some drives into, and find someone locally who has RSDOS and OS-9. Seeing as you seem to know about the CoCo machines, I may as well ask you: What the heck is this CoCo Max cartridge I picked up a year or so ago? It looks like it's some kind of video digitizer or something... but then it could just be some kind of wacky high-res display cartridge. The sticker has been punctured over the screw, so all I see is "HI-RES PUT MODULE", and on the underside is a small sticker that says "COCO MAX HI-RES PACK - COLORWARE INC." Know anything about it? > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should > zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 9 15:41:05 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Of course, Sam and others have taken to talking about the Mattel Aquarius > lately, but I've never seen a mention of the Radofin version, which other than > the lack of 'Mattel' logos and the change to the model number and label on the > bottom of the machine, is identical. Were many of them sold? Does anyone > else out there have one? About all I've been able to learn is that since > Radofin was the actual manufacturer of both versions, they continued to > produce it for an unknown length of time after Mattel dropped it from their > line. There's not even a mention of it on any of the Aquarius references on > the web. I'd never even heard of it until you mentioned it to me previous. I would think that it's kinda rare. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Jun 9 16:21:00 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Buzzing PS? In-Reply-To: <199705301344.15723@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > Hi, > > > > The Apple /// I picked up last weekend has one annoying flaw, and that is ^^^ > > a *very* loud power supply, that seems to get louder the longer the > > machine is powered up. > > Is this noise normal, or is it a sign that something is about to go > > kablooie? And if something's wrong, is there any way of knowing which > > part is about to go? > > No it's not normal. The Apple uses a switching type supply, and there > shouldn't be any 60Hz waveforms anywhere after the mains > rectifier/smoothing cap. If it's buzzing there is a problem OK, here's a question from an electronics-know-nothing (which hopefully isn't in the FAQ, else I'll look like a complete idiot :) ): How do I tell the difference between a switching supply and a linear supply? Just from looking at it. I get the idea that linear supplies have honking big transformers in them, and switching supplies don't. > It _may_ be nothing more than the mains filter coil (if it has one), or it > may be a dried up smoothing capacitor (the 2 big ones rated at about 300V) > that needs replacing. You could try those first. I don't remember there being any very large capcitors. (Nothing like in my PET 2001, anyway... hooo boy! ;) ). I'll take another look inside to see if I can spot the ones you're talking about. > Apple PSUs are easy to check. The 6 way cable unplugs from the main board, > and the wiring is given in the Apple ][ reference manual. Just connect a > voltmeter between the +5V output and the ground wire (red and black?) and > power up. I don't think you need a dummy load. If you don't get 5V when > you power up, you need to sort out that PSU. Well, the ][ and /// use different connectors, but I noticed that the ///'s supply has info on the PCB. The supply works, BTW. As I mentioned, the system powers up and runs as if nothing were wrong. The noise the power supply makes just makes me nervous. > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 9 17:24:40 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: <199706092103.4604@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 9, 97 10:03:54 pm Message-ID: <9706092124.AA30415@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1779 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970609/cfebf007/attachment-0001.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 9 17:30:19 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Buzzing PS? In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Jun 9, 97 05:21:00 pm Message-ID: <9706092130.AA25915@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 925 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970609/7d66e4dd/attachment-0001.ksh From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Jun 9 16:39:25 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 31 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > > I found out that there is a monitor built into the machine, too (press > > Control-OpenApple-Reset) but apart from dumping memory eight bytes at a > > time and the ability to change the values stored in bytes, I can't figure > > out if the monitor can do anything. Some of the hardware is very Apple > > The monitor does a lot. Try typing L and hitting return and you will get > a disassembly. You can specify an address first, like F800L to start > disassembly at $F800. Actually this doesn't work. The ///'s monitor isn't identical to the ]['s monitor. That's why I was asking. > > I took the machine apart, too, and I found a place for a battery on the > > motherboard, with no battery or battery cover in it. Does the /// have a > > system clock? > > Yes. Do you know what kind of battery it's supposed to take? (And why they put it in such an inaccessible place on the motherboard?) > > Can the /// emulate a ][? > > Yes it can, but you need the emulation system disk. Cool! Not that I need another ][, I just think it's good that they allowed this kind of functionality. Though I suppose, in a way, they felt they had to. > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 9 16:48:22 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Buzzing PS? Message-ID: <199706092146.QAA04091@challenge.sunflower.com> I have a /// for parts! ---------- > From: Doug Spence > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Buzzing PS? > Date: Monday, June 09, 1997 4:21 PM > > > On Fri, 30 May 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > The Apple /// I picked up last weekend has one annoying flaw, and that is > ^^^ > > > a *very* loud power supply, that seems to get louder the longer the > > > machine is powered up. > > > > > > Is this noise normal, or is it a sign that something is about to go > > > kablooie? And if something's wrong, is there any way of knowing which > > > part is about to go? > > > > No it's not normal. The Apple uses a switching type supply, and there > > shouldn't be any 60Hz waveforms anywhere after the mains > > rectifier/smoothing cap. If it's buzzing there is a problem > > OK, here's a question from an electronics-know-nothing (which hopefully > isn't in the FAQ, else I'll look like a complete idiot :) ): How do I > tell the difference between a switching supply and a linear supply? Just > from looking at it. > > I get the idea that linear supplies have honking big transformers in them, > and switching supplies don't. > > > It _may_ be nothing more than the mains filter coil (if it has one), or it > > may be a dried up smoothing capacitor (the 2 big ones rated at about 300V) > > that needs replacing. You could try those first. > > I don't remember there being any very large capcitors. (Nothing like in > my PET 2001, anyway... hooo boy! ;) ). I'll take another look inside to > see if I can spot the ones you're talking about. > > > > > Apple PSUs are easy to check. The 6 way cable unplugs from the main board, > > and the wiring is given in the Apple ][ reference manual. Just connect a > > voltmeter between the +5V output and the ground wire (red and black?) and > > power up. I don't think you need a dummy load. If you don't get 5V when > > you power up, you need to sort out that PSU. > > Well, the ][ and /// use different connectors, but I noticed that the > ///'s supply has info on the PCB. > > The supply works, BTW. As I mentioned, the system powers up and runs as > if nothing were wrong. The noise the power supply makes just makes me > nervous. > > > -- > > -tony > > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill > > Doug Spence > ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 9 16:48:37 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius Message-ID: <199706092146.QAA04094@challenge.sunflower.com> Wish I had one. ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Radofin Aquarius > Date: Monday, June 09, 1997 3:41 PM > > On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > Of course, Sam and others have taken to talking about the Mattel Aquarius > > lately, but I've never seen a mention of the Radofin version, which other than > > the lack of 'Mattel' logos and the change to the model number and label on the > > bottom of the machine, is identical. Were many of them sold? Does anyone > > else out there have one? About all I've been able to learn is that since > > Radofin was the actual manufacturer of both versions, they continued to > > produce it for an unknown length of time after Mattel dropped it from their > > line. There's not even a mention of it on any of the Aquarius references on > > the web. > > I'd never even heard of it until you mentioned it to me previous. I > would think that it's kinda rare. > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz Mon Jun 9 17:01:01 1997 From: K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz (Keith Whitehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Removing adhesive (RE: Cleaning Plastic) Message-ID: <199706092205.PAA21292@mx2.u.washington.edu> >On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > >> I recommend "3M General Purpose Adhesive Remover", which is inexpensive >> and comes in a red and white quart-size can that will last you until >> roughly the year 2020. Some hardware stores carry it, but it's most >> reliably found at an auto paint supply store (check your local yellow >> pages). >> >> In response to an earlier question, Cameo copper cleaner can be found in >> most any grocery store or general goods store. > >Ok, there have been so many cleansers thrown around in the last 12 hours >that I think its time to compile a list of these with their respective >uses and throw it in the FAQ. > >Sam >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Well you can add CRC 226 and 556, They don't harm platics (actually they give it a nice gloss if you like that sorta thing) Works really well on these "permanant" paper labels. Cheers +----------- Keith Whitehead -----------+ | Physics and Chemistry Depts | | Massey University | | Palmerston North | | New Zealand | | | | Ph +64 6 350-5074 Fax +64 6 354-0207 | +------------------------------------------+ From gram at cnct.com Mon Jun 9 17:09:09 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > Seeing as you seem to know about the CoCo machines, I may as well ask you: > What the heck is this CoCo Max cartridge I picked up a year or so ago? It > looks like it's some kind of video digitizer or something... but then it > could just be some kind of wacky high-res display cartridge. > > The sticker has been punctured over the screw, so all I see is "HI-RES > PUT MODULE", and on the underside is a small sticker that says "COCO > MAX HI-RES PACK - COLORWARE INC." The cartridge is a high-resolution joystick interface that worked with (if you had a Multi-pak Interface) the CoCo-Max drawing program. Mine was stolen ten years ago, but it was a very nice system. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Jun 9 17:08:17 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970602121045.00aaa570@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > At 11:24 PM 6/1/97 -0700, you wrote: > ><...> > >> accessories including a CP/M cartridge for C64 > > > >A CP/M _carthridge_? Awesome. > > I just tried it yesterday. Pretty cool. The Z80 is in the cartridge. The > package comes with a CP/M 2.2 diskette for 1541 and a condensed CP/M manual > by Commodore (copyright 1983). There is a K-Mart price tag on the original > box that reads $54. Not bad. This reminds me... I also have a Z80 cartridge for the C64. But it's not the one from Commodore. It's from a company called DATA 20 Corporation. I haven't been able to get it to work. It has what looks like a connector for a power supply on the back, but I didn't get the PS with it. It also came without any disks, though it did have a cassette in the box with it, which says "Use side A for Commodore 64/Use side B for VIC 20". It's a Z-80 Video Pak, that combines the Z80 processor AND an 80-column display adapter into one (big fat) cartridge. To quote from the box: The Z-80 Video Pak brings the convenience of an 80 column screen and the power of a CP/M compatible operating system to the Commodore 64. Designed to be used with a monitor, the Z-80 Video Pak lets the Commodore 64 owner switch to a 40 or 80 column screen in black and white, or back to the standard color screen. All switching is done through software and no cables need to be moved. The Z-80 Video Pak has its own Z-80 microprocessor and operating system which allows the 64 to run CP/M software formatted for the Commodore 1541 disk drive. A Terminal mode which brings communication with central data bases is included at no extra cost. The Z-80 Video Pak also supports the advanced screen handling features of all Video Pak models such as erase to the end of line, erase to end of screen, and dump screen to printer. If anyone out there knows this thing's power requirements (AAAGH! Another wall-wart!) and where to get CP/M disks in 1541 format, please tell. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Mon Jun 9 17:13:34 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970602121045.00aaa570@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970609231334.0069ba90@post.keme.co.uk> At 18:08 09/06/97 -0400, you wrote: > >On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > >> At 11:24 PM 6/1/97 -0700, you wrote: >> ><...> >> >> accessories including a CP/M cartridge for C64 >> > >> >A CP/M _carthridge_? Awesome. >> >> I just tried it yesterday. Pretty cool. The Z80 is in the cartridge. The >> package comes with a CP/M 2.2 diskette for 1541 and a condensed CP/M manual >> by Commodore (copyright 1983). There is a K-Mart price tag on the original >> box that reads $54. Not bad. > >This reminds me... I also have a Z80 cartridge for the C64. But it's not >the one from Commodore. It's from a company called DATA 20 Corporation. > >I haven't been able to get it to work. It has what looks like a connector >for a power supply on the back, but I didn't get the PS with it. It also >came without any disks, though it did have a cassette in the box with it, >which says "Use side A for Commodore 64/Use side B for VIC 20". > >It's a Z-80 Video Pak, that combines the Z80 processor AND an 80-column >display adapter into one (big fat) cartridge. > >To quote from the box: > > The Z-80 Video Pak brings the convenience of an 80 column screen and > the power of a CP/M compatible operating system to the Commodore 64. > > Designed to be used with a monitor, the Z-80 Video Pak lets the > Commodore 64 owner switch to a 40 or 80 column screen in black and > white, or back to the standard color screen. All switching is done > through software and no cables need to be moved. > > The Z-80 Video Pak has its own Z-80 microprocessor and operating > system which allows the 64 to run CP/M software formatted for the > Commodore 1541 disk drive. A Terminal mode which brings communication > with central data bases is included at no extra cost. The Z-80 Video > Pak also supports the advanced screen handling features of all Video > Pak models such as erase to the end of line, erase to end of screen, > and dump screen to printer. > > >If anyone out there knows this thing's power requirements (AAAGH! Another >wall-wart!) and where to get CP/M disks in 1541 format, please tell. :) > > >Doug Spence >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > >Hi you lot in the USA. I have a Boxed CPM cart and Disk Commodore Original, Anybody want it?? Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Mon Jun 9 17:16:10 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970602121045.00aaa570@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970609231610.0069daec@post.keme.co.uk> At 18:08 09/06/97 -0400, you wrote: > >On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: > >> At 11:24 PM 6/1/97 -0700, you wrote: >> ><...> >> >> accessories including a CP/M cartridge for C64 >> > >> >A CP/M _carthridge_? Awesome. >> >> I just tried it yesterday. Pretty cool. The Z80 is in the cartridge. The >> package comes with a CP/M 2.2 diskette for 1541 and a condensed CP/M manual >> by Commodore (copyright 1983). There is a K-Mart price tag on the original >> box that reads $54. Not bad. > >This reminds me... I also have a Z80 cartridge for the C64. But it's not >the one from Commodore. It's from a company called DATA 20 Corporation. > >I haven't been able to get it to work. It has what looks like a connector >for a power supply on the back, but I didn't get the PS with it. It also >came without any disks, though it did have a cassette in the box with it, >which says "Use side A for Commodore 64/Use side B for VIC 20". > >It's a Z-80 Video Pak, that combines the Z80 processor AND an 80-column >display adapter into one (big fat) cartridge. > >To quote from the box: > > The Z-80 Video Pak brings the convenience of an 80 column screen and > the power of a CP/M compatible operating system to the Commodore 64. > > Designed to be used with a monitor, the Z-80 Video Pak lets the > Commodore 64 owner switch to a 40 or 80 column screen in black and > white, or back to the standard color screen. All switching is done > through software and no cables need to be moved. > > The Z-80 Video Pak has its own Z-80 microprocessor and operating > system which allows the 64 to run CP/M software formatted for the > Commodore 1541 disk drive. A Terminal mode which brings communication > with central data bases is included at no extra cost. The Z-80 Video > Pak also supports the advanced screen handling features of all Video > Pak models such as erase to the end of line, erase to end of screen, > and dump screen to printer. > > >If anyone out there knows this thing's power requirements (AAAGH! Another >wall-wart!) and where to get CP/M disks in 1541 format, please tell. :) > > >Doug Spence >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > >CPM DISKS Easy Download em from the net, make a 1541 lead to connect the 1541 to PC its in the DOX on C64s Emulator, Use a util on the PC called Star Commander and copy stright to a real 1541. Easy!!! If you need more info Mail ME.. Steve Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From s-ware at nwu.edu Mon Jun 9 17:29:48 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Of course, Sam and others have taken to talking about the Mattel > Aquarius lately, but I've never seen a mention of the Radofin version, > which other than the lack of 'Mattel' logos and the change to the model > number and label on the bottom of the machine, is identical. Were many > of them sold? Does anyone else out there have one? About all I've been > able to learn is that since Radofin was the actual manufacturer of both > versions, they continued to produce it for an unknown length of time > after Mattel dropped it from their line. There's not even a mention of > it on any of the Aquarius references on the web. Hello from a new list subscriber! I picked up a Radofin Aquarius with the original box, manual, and software last weekend. Other than the lack of the "Mattel Electronics" logo, it seems to be identical to the Mattel version. The information on the box is in four different languages - English, French, German, and Spanish, IIRC. Is it possible that the Aquarius was sold under the Radofin name outside the US? -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu ware@interaccess.com From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 9 17:23:49 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've accumulated a little info on the Radofin Aquarius (as that's the flavor of Aquarius that I've got). Apparently Mattel made the Aquarius for a short time and then dumped it when it didn't make money. Radofin who was the manufacturer purchased the rights to it and continued to manufacture it for another 2 years. At some point, but apparently not immediately they changed from a Zilog Z-80 to some kind of Z-80 clone for a processor (I can't remember what at the moment - I think it may have been an NEC chip). I've talked to a person who's R-Aquarius has a Z-80 in it, but mine has the clone chip. Functionally there appears to be no difference between the models. Mattel has been removed from the top logo in the Radofin version. It also looks like the Radofin guys were overachievers when it came to internal shielding. I was told by a Mattel owner that the guts of his machine were shielded by that cheezy cardboard/foil stuff and screwed to the main board. Mine is encased in a poorly vented metal box which is soldered all around to the main board (yeah, it was a bitch to remove. Now it's screwed down.) Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Of course, Sam and others have taken to talking about the Mattel Aquarius > lately, but I've never seen a mention of the Radofin version, which other than > the lack of 'Mattel' logos and the change to the model number and label on the > bottom of the machine, is identical. Were many of them sold? Does anyone > else out there have one? About all I've been able to learn is that since > Radofin was the actual manufacturer of both versions, they continued to > produce it for an unknown length of time after Mattel dropped it from their > line. There's not even a mention of it on any of the Aquarius references on > the web. > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Collector of classic home computers: > Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, > Coleco ADAM, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, > Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, > Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color > Computer-3, Model 4, and Model 4P, plus Odyssey2, Atari Superpong > and 2600VCS game consoles. > > > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 9 18:41:02 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at Jun 9, 97 03:23:49 pm Message-ID: <9706092241.AA00050@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1269 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970609/3c4d842c/attachment-0001.ksh From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 9 17:52:53 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: TI99 (was Re: 8088s seattle comp.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not along the same topic but I'm curious - just how popular was the TI99. From what I've seen scrounging over the years it looks like it might have been the most popular (or at least most numerous) micro ever made. Now, I know that's not true. It's just strange - I could go out this weekend and easily come home with 30- 40 of these machines, wait a month or two and probably do it again. There's one local junk store here that had 11 of them lying around when last I checked. They're like roaches ;). Bill From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 9 17:56:58 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: How to read/write TRS-80 diskettes from PC? In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051B94C1@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: > I have a CompatiCard II and a Copy II Option Board. I assume the Option > Board is able to copy TRS-80 diskettes (I hope, just got it this weekend > and haven't tried yet) but I need to actually write files. Sydex 22Disk > appears to support only CP/M formats. The CII Option Board will copy TRS-80 disks (or make disk images of them which is the really useful feature of the option board). Can't help you with reading/writing part. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 9 18:01:27 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: TI99 (was Re: 8088s seattle comp.) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051DBF66@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> True, that's bizarre... they appear to be especially common in the northwest. But just try to find a PEB! Kai > ---------- > From: Bill Whitson[SMTP:bill@booster.bothell.washington.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, June 09, 1997 3:52 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: TI99 (was Re: 8088s seattle comp.) > > > Not along the same topic but I'm curious - just how > popular was the TI99. From what I've seen scrounging > over the years it looks like it might have been the > most popular (or at least most numerous) micro ever made. > Now, I know that's not true. It's just strange - I > could go out this weekend and easily come home with 30- > 40 of these machines, wait a month or two and probably do > it again. There's one local junk store here that had > 11 of them lying around when last I checked. They're > like roaches ;). > > Bill > From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 9 18:01:35 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Bill mentions sticking a keyboard in a dishwasher. Bill, I assume you've > done this, and it's OK? I would think that with the heat of drying and > all it would kill the components. Allison pretty much summed up my thoughts on this and then left me in the dust ;). At any rate, yes I put pretty much all my keyboards through the dishwasher. I add a softener to avoid getting white spots all over the keys (I have hard water) and don't use the dry cycle. I usually leave them out to dry for 3 days before using them. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 9 18:03:37 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Removing adhesive (RE: Cleaning Plastic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ok, there have been so many cleansers thrown around in the last 12 hours > that I think its time to compile a list of these with their respective > uses and throw it in the FAQ. Already on it ;). A good deal of this info also already exists in the FAQ. This is undoubtedly the most FAQ of all the FAQs on this list. Bill From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 9 21:23:36 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Bit-3 Full-View80 video card for Atari 800 References: <9706092124.AA30415@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <339CBAA8.7533@unix.aardvarkol.com> Here's something I've been wanting to pick up for quite a while and just happened to come across one in my favorite thrift shop today while out picking up some groceries. I came across an Atari 800, with the standard 10k ROM and a single 16k RAM cartridge in it, as well as a 3rd party 32k RAM cartridge and a Bit-3 Full-View80 80-column video board! The video board has a mini-din connector and what appears to be a composite video connector (RCA female plug) for a monitor. Is this a composite video connector? I can't remember if software had to be written specifically for the Bit-3 or not? Also, could someone tell me the power requirements for an Atari 850 interface, as I also picked up one of those but it didn't have the PSU. Thanks. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 9 21:29:29 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: TI99 (was Re: 8088s seattle comp.) References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051DBF66@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <339CBC09.2CC6@unix.aardvarkol.com> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > True, that's bizarre... they appear to be especially common in the > northwest. But just try to find a PEB! Thankfully, PEB's don't seem impossible to find around me, as I've come up with two of them in the last year, though I've not seen anywhere near that number of TI-99's as you and Bill are referring to. What I need is the Speech Editor cartridge! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 9 21:31:35 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius References: Message-ID: <339CBC87.36FD@unix.aardvarkol.com> Bill Whitson wrote: > I've accumulated a little info on the Radofin Aquarius (as that's the > flavor of Aquarius that I've got). Apparently Mattel made the Aquarius > for a short time and then dumped it when it didn't make money. Radofin > who was the manufacturer purchased the rights to it and continued to > manufacture it for another 2 years. At some point, but apparently not Bill, Thanks...that validated what I had heard on the subject, though I didn't realize they kept making it for two more years. Didn't Mattel market the machine barely 9 months or so before dropping it? Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From chemif at mbox.queen.it Mon Jun 9 19:00:29 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic Message-ID: <199706100000.CAA12105@mbox.queen.it> At 05:38 09/06/97 -0700, Greg Mast wrote: > > I apologize if this is a repeat question but I can't seem to find the > previous post. > > What were the solutions to removing yellowing from the plastic cases? I > bought a printer that looks terrible. Not sure what caused it so any > suggestions helpful at this point. > > thanks, > > Greg > Hi Greg, I don't know if this will help you in solving cleaning problems, but here is my favourite: FULCRON from AREXONS. I do maintenance and cleaning of computer cases since 10 years (for both job and passion), and i found it to clean jellow stains (caused by nicotine) EVEN BETTER THAN TRIELINE (honestly I find it better than anything else for any kind of dirt exept: paint and ink). It seems to take away the outer layer of jellowing but is not smelling like any petrol derived-solvent. I don't know if you will be able to find it there (AREXONS it's a multinational company, isn't it?), but here in Italy was introduced 3 years ago and now you can find it in any detergent shop. For ink and tape adhesive I use a ISOPROPILIC ALCOOL based product called TERGITUTTO, but this time the company (Sutter) I'm shure it's Italian only, so try to find a similar remedy in your town. Bye Riccardo Romagnoli. Classic Computer Collector Forli' - Italy From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Mon Jun 9 19:20:54 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: TRS-80, etc. Message-ID: Howdy folks: I am writing this to let you know... if you would like to be mailed a very complete listing of TRS-80 hardware and software, just e-mail me with your name and mailing address to coslor@bobcat.peru.edu. This listing costists of 65 pages and will be sent via 1st Class mail ASAP. If you would like it even quicker, please send $3 to the address below to cover MOST of the shipping charges... you would then be 'prioritized'. I collect all types of TRS-80 hardware and software, and specialize in games in both original diska nd tape format, as well as converted for use with modern PC emulators. I have a HUGE collection and would like to share this with others. I like to think I have 'nearly' every commercially sold game (and hundreds of others) written for the TRS-80 line of computers. I also have most applications and DOSs ... all for the Model 1,3,4 as well as a limited supply of CoCo hardware and software. I also collect for many other classic systems, including but not limited to: MSX, Colour Genie, Apple ][, Apple ][e, Apple ][c, Apple ][+, Commodore 64, C-16, Vic 20, Plus 4, Atari series, Coleco, Sincalire Spectrum, P2000, and Vectrex systems. All I ask for most of the software is to be compensated for my expenses (postage, media, etc.) and have very low prices on most of my hardware as I have accumulated a large inventory over the years and need to clear my shelves. I am also looking for the following items in particular: 1) YOUR classic hardware and/or software. I am always buying and trading for those item. 2) 80-Micro, TRS-80 Microcomputing News, Computer News 80, and 80-US Journal magazines, etc. 3) Original manuals, instruction, and game boxes concerning the TRS-80 4) Atari 800 - Atari Artist cartridge. A800LX - RX8053. Just please remember, I am always buying, selling, and trading for these hard to find items... even for things not on the above list. If you're looking for something or have some things to offer... PLEASE let me know. I simply love the TRS-80 and other classic machines and would appreciate any help you may be able to provide in expanding my collection. I most gladly will help you out in adding to your own classic computer or game machine collection. Finally, I have ALL my original disk, tape, and cartridge software... for all systems, converted to run on their respective PC emulators! Send me your want lists, request for a catalog, or what you have to offer: via e-mail, United States Postal Service, or give me a call... I look forward to hearing from you. Best Wishes, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From danjo at xnet.com Mon Jun 9 21:46:28 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Dan and Joanne Tucker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: (fwd) FREE: Collection of Early MS-DOS/PC-DOS SW and manuals Message-ID: <199706100246.VAA18110@xnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2462 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970609/6a01d0a8/attachment-0001.ksh From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Mon Jun 9 21:48:13 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706100248.VAA20025@fudge.uchicago.edu> jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com said, > Of course, Sam and others have taken to talking about the Mattel > Aquarius lately, but I've never seen a mention of the Radofin > version, which other than the lack of 'Mattel' logos and the change > to the model number and label on the bottom of the machine, is > identical. I bought one of these at a second-hand store a few weeks ago and didn't even notice until I got it home that there was no mention of Mattel anywhere on the box. I would have assumed it was earlier than the Mattel version, not later, because it's got a 1983 copyright date on it and I can't imagine anyone buying an Aquarius (for full price) any later than that. Scott Ware mentioned there being four languages on the box of his. Mine has five: English, French, German, Italian, and Spanish, though there are some things that only appear in English and French and a few that are in English only. Bill Whitson mentioned the heavy shielding -- yes, there's a *lot* of metal inside the case, and sufficiently soldered down to make me wonder whether their goal wasn't so much to prevent RF interference as to keep people from snooping at the electronics. Mine came with a box but no manuals, so all I know about it is the location of the start of screen memory (revealed as 12328 in a photo of the manual reproduced on the box) and the usual things that you expect to find in a Microsoft BASIC. The most interesting thing about it to me was that it comes up in lowercase by default, which seems to be almost unheard of in early 1980s micros. I was also surprised that it accepts both ^X and ^U as line-erase characters in its line editor, but then I got a TRS-80 Model 100 and it does the same thing, so maybe this is just something common to the later MS BASICs. eric From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 9 22:24:36 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: Bit-3 Full-View80 video card for Atari 800 References: <9706092124.AA30415@alph02.triumf.ca> <339CBAA8.7533@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <339CC8F4.9A2@rain.org> Jeff Hellige wrote: > > written specifically for the Bit-3 or not? Also, could someone tell me > the power requirements for an Atari 850 interface, as I also picked up > one of those but it didn't have the PSU. Thanks. > Can't help with the Bit-3 unit, but the power supply for my 850 interface is P/N C014319, is marked for use with Atari 400/800 systems, and is listed as 9.5 VAC output @ 1.7Amps. Hope this helps. From ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu Mon Jun 9 22:55:49 1997 From: ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu (Yujin Nagasawa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: (fwd) FREE: Collection of Early MS-DOS/PC-DOS SW and manuals Message-ID: <199706100351.XAA01476@abel.ic.sunysb.edu> I would really like to get old Windows and Turbo Prolog, but I can not go there to pick them up. Is it impossible to send them to me? Of course I will pay for shipping and every thing. Thank you, Yujin Nagasawa From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 10 01:33:17 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > The monitor does a lot. Try typing L and hitting return and you will get > > a disassembly. You can specify an address first, like F800L to start > > disassembly at $F800. > > Actually this doesn't work. > > The ///'s monitor isn't identical to the ]['s monitor. That's why I was > asking. Yeah, you're right. I found this out after finally booting my /// up for the first time. No wonder the /// flopped. They changed a good thing. They fixed what wasn't broken. Lame-o's. > Do you know what kind of battery it's supposed to take? (And why they put > it in such an inaccessible place on the motherboard?) I haven't torn my /// apart yet. If I find out before you do, I'll let you in on the secret. > > > Can the /// emulate a ][? > > > > Yes it can, but you need the emulation system disk. > > Cool! Not that I need another ][, I just think it's good that they > allowed this kind of functionality. Though I suppose, in a way, they felt > they had to. Let me know if you need the system disks. I can send you some. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 10 01:47:56 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:17 2005 Subject: C64 thingy Message-ID: I picked up a Commodore 64 a while ago that had this special board inside. It was inserted between the keyboard and the motherboard. IE. it had a connector that plugged into the keyboard rolex connector on the motherboard and then the keyboard ribbon cable plugged into it. Then it had a 9-pin male D-type connector than came out the back of the C64. My guess is that it was for a numeric keypad or something. I forgot what was stamped on the circuit board. Any ideas? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 10 01:44:30 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: TI99 (was Re: 8088s seattle comp.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > Not along the same topic but I'm curious - just how > popular was the TI99. From what I've seen scrounging > over the years it looks like it might have been the > most popular (or at least most numerous) micro ever made. > Now, I know that's not true. It's just strange - I > could go out this weekend and easily come home with 30- > 40 of these machines, wait a month or two and probably do > it again. There's one local junk store here that had > 11 of them lying around when last I checked. They're > like roaches ;). Personally, my opinion of the TI-99/4a varies from stupid piece of shit to semi-decent machine. Today I feel like stupid piece of shit. It was almost completely closed, it's BASIC sucked and was slow, it's keyboard sucked, and if it wasn't for the hordes of TI-99 faithfuls it would've been just a footnote. I don't understand what the big attraction was, but then, I came from the world of Apple ][, to which nothing could compare (uh oh, here come the holy wars). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 9 18:24:37 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Bit-3 Full-View80 video card for Atari 800 In-Reply-To: <339CC8F4.9A2@rain.org> Message-ID: On 10-Jun-97, Marvin wrote: >Can't help with the Bit-3 unit, but the power supply for my 850 >interface is P/N C014319, is marked for use with Atari 400/800 systems, >and is listed as 9.5 VAC output @ 1.7Amps. Hope this helps. Marvin, Thanks for the info! I just happen to have an extra one of these PSU's sitting here. Isn't this the same PSU that powers the 800 itself? Jeff Jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Coleco ADAM, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, Model 4, and Model 4P, plus Odyssey2, Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 10 08:18:42 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: TI99 (was Re: 8088s seattle comp.) Message-ID: <199706101318.AA15548@world.std.com> > Personally, my opinion of the TI-99/4a varies from stupid piece of shit > to semi-decent machine. Today I feel like stupid piece of shit. It was > almost completely closed, it's BASIC sucked and was slow, it's keyboard I have two of the beasts and a expansion box with floppy, ram, aftermarket ram and rs232 and ever the little talker thing and a box of games. It is slow. The manuals for the cpu and expansion were available, I got them. It's a compilation of the things you can do to a good cpu to make it run slow and try to do everything. > but then, I came from the world of Apple ][, to which nothing could > compare (uh oh, here come the holy wars). It's attraction? One it was cheaper than an apple with disks! When TI had the great sell off the console was $50, expansion $50, and modules $25-100. That made it appealingly cheap for what it was. I got my during the fire sale so they have been with me since new and work great. Parsec is still a favorite game. Since I have the editor, assember and other packages I also use it for assembly of TI9900 code for the technico board. An aside: The ti994a was an attempt at the time of emerging PCs to deliver the home computing applance. Everyone had an idea and generally the all were poor. Even the original PC was really bad, mostly closed design. They were all noteable as it told marketers what would fly and what had to be there. Amusingly the ti has what every P5 box has today, graphics, sound, games so they weren't that far off . Allison From kyrrin at wizards.net Tue Jun 10 08:37:28 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Trade for board? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970610063728.00e29d90@mail.wizards.net> Although I currently have a decent QBUS-to-SCSI adapter (Sigma Information Systems model RQD11), it does not appear to be capable of handling, or booting from, a CD-ROM drive with its current revision of firmware. Despite this, it does appear to work quite well (recognized by the MicroVAX it's plugged into, sees devices on the SCSI bus). Since I need to boot from CD, though, the board is of little use to me in its current state. Anyone on here interested in maybe trading me an Emulex or Dilog SCSI card for this one? I do have the original manual (and if you think that was easy to find...) ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From idavis at comland.com Tue Jun 10 09:28:31 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Bit-3 Full-View80 video card for Atari 800 Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970610142831.008fc80c@mail.comland.com > At 07:23 PM 6/9/97 -0700, Jeff wrote: >written specifically for the Bit-3 or not? Also, could someone tell me >the power requirements for an Atari 850 interface, as I also picked up >one of those but it didn't have the PSU. Thanks. > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com >-- >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ >Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, >800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, >VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, >Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 >Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong >and Atari 2600VCS game consoles > I have been using the same power supply for my 850 as my 800. Come to think of it, just about everything I have hooked to my atari is using the exact same power supplies, except for the 1027 printer which has a different sized connector. I will double check the 850 manual when I get home, but I know I just grabbed a regular old atari 800 power supply and started using it. If it turns out to be different, I will post the requirements. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 10 10:33:03 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Bit-3 Full-View80 video card for Atari 800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > >Can't help with the Bit-3 unit, but the power supply for my 850 > >interface is P/N C014319, is marked for use with Atari 400/800 systems, > >and is listed as 9.5 VAC output @ 1.7Amps. Hope this helps. > > Marvin, > > Thanks for the info! I just happen to have an extra one of these PSU's > sitting here. Isn't this the same PSU that powers the 800 itself? > Yup, it sure is. Sounds like you are in luck! From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jun 10 11:08:09 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Sage IV... Message-ID: <199706101608.RAA13441@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Hi all, I have just recieved this email offering me a Sage IV. I am not interested as I already have one so the cost of shipping to here in the UK isn't worth it. So if someone wants it contact him directly. Kevan ------- Forwarded Message To: collector@heydon.org Subject: sage IV Hello, I own a Sage IV computer and have some word processing software and spreadsheet software for the computer. I also own two amber monitors for the Sage IV. If you are interested in purchasing these, or know a source in the United States that is interested in this computer equipment, please leave me a note on the web, or at CompuServe 76627,224 Jim Krasno (my wife is Nancy Nelson) Jim ------- End of Forwarded Message From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue Jun 10 11:20:10 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: TI99 (was Re: 8088s seattle comp.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apple II???????? PUHLEEZE!!!!!!! EVERYONE knows that MY COMMODORE 64 is WAY better than YOUR APPLE! All 64erz UNITE and show this INFIDEL why our 64s are KING! ;) Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jun 10 11:32:25 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Sage IV... Message-ID: <199706101629.LAA10200@challenge.sunflower.com> Im not rich, Don't have one. Do I want one? Help me out here? what is it? ---------- > From: Kevan Heydon > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Sage IV... > Date: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 11:08 AM > > > Hi all, > > I have just recieved this email offering me a Sage IV. I am not > interested as I already have one so the cost of shipping to here in the > UK isn't worth it. So if someone wants it contact him directly. > > Kevan > > ------- Forwarded Message > > To: collector@heydon.org > Subject: sage IV > > Hello, I own a Sage IV computer and have some word processing software > and spreadsheet software for the computer. I also own two amber > monitors for the Sage IV. If you are interested in purchasing these, or > know a source in the United States that is interested in this computer > equipment, please leave me a note on the web, or at CompuServe 76627,224 > Jim Krasno (my wife is Nancy Nelson) > Jim > > ------- End of Forwarded Message > > > > From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jun 10 11:44:55 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Sage IV... In-Reply-To: <199706101629.LAA10200@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <199706101644.RAA14144@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> In message <199706101629.LAA10200@challenge.sunflower.com>you write: > Im not rich, Don't have one. Do I want one? Help me out here? what is it? > To start with you can see a picture of a Sage II here: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/old_collection/manufacturer-sage.html The IV is a slightly higher box as it contains a full height hard disk. The CPU is a 68000 running at 8MHz. My II has 512Kb of memory but I think the IV has more. They have a serial port to connect a console and they also have a HPIB port. I only know them to run a the UCSD Pascal system but it seems that they also have other software. Sorry I don't know much more as even though I have had mine for quite some time I haven't had much chance to play with them. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 10 12:21:14 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 References: <9706092124.AA30415@alph02.triumf.ca> <339CBAA8.7533@unix.aardvarkol.com> <339CC8F4.9A2@rain.org> Message-ID: <339D8D0A.55EA@rain.org> In checking through the master computer lists, I found a Tandy 600 computer that is not listed. In checking through the docs, I can't find any reference to what the CPU is and I would prefer not to take it apart to find out:). Anyone know what CPU it uses? The manual was copyright 1985 but I don't know when the machine was actually released although I would *assume* 1985. It operates with MS-DOS style files and with all software residing in ROM. It appears that the basic machine comes with 32K of RAM expandable to 128K or 224K with special 96K upgrade kits. It is classified as a "lap-size" or "handheld" computer; this with the dimensions being 11 1/2" x 12 1/2" x 2 1/2" and weighing about 9 1/2 pounds. It comes with a 16 line x 80 character LCD screen, 3 1/2" drive and a build-in modem. Built in software includes MS Works V1.2 with Word, Calendar, File, Telecom, and Multiplan. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 10 18:19:53 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Sage IV... In-Reply-To: <199706101629.LAA10200@challenge.sunflower.com>; from "Bill Girnius" at Jun 10, 97 11:32 am Message-ID: <199706101719.2416@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Im not rich, Don't have one. Do I want one? Help me out here? what is it? If it's the machine I think it is, it's a Sage 2 with a hard disk. A Sage 2 was a single-board (+ PSU and Drives) 68000 box with up to 512K RAM, disk controller, 2 serial ports (terminal and modem), GPIB, and printer port. It was quite nice hardware, and easy to hack about with (all chips in sockets, schematics in the manual, etc). There was a _good_ monitor in ROM (edit memory, registers, read/write sectors, etc). It could (obviously) boot an OS from disk - the standard one was (IIRC) the ucsd p-system. Of course I could be thinking of some totally different Sage. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 10 12:27:21 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051FF342@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Actually the Tandy 600 was a 1989 concoction. It looks like an early Toshiba laptop, with flip-up narrow LCD display. It has Multiplan, a subset of MS Word, a built-in modem, 360K 3.5" drive, 80x16 display, and sold for $999. I passed up one of these at a swap meet a few weeks ago. Kai > ---------- > From: Marvin[SMTP:marvin@rain.org] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 10:21 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Tandy 600 > > In checking through the master computer lists, I found a Tandy 600 > computer that is not listed. In checking through the docs, I can't > find > any reference to what the CPU is and I would prefer not to take it > apart > to find out:). Anyone know what CPU it uses? The manual was > copyright > 1985 but I don't know when the machine was actually released although > I > would *assume* 1985. It operates with MS-DOS style files and with all > software residing in ROM. It appears that the basic machine comes > with > 32K of RAM expandable to 128K or 224K with special 96K upgrade kits. > It > is classified as a "lap-size" or "handheld" computer; this with the > dimensions being 11 1/2" x 12 1/2" x 2 1/2" and weighing about 9 1/2 > pounds. It comes with a 16 line x 80 character LCD screen, 3 1/2" > drive > and a build-in modem. Built in software includes MS Works V1.2 with > Word, Calendar, File, Telecom, and Multiplan. > From ekman at lysator.liu.se Tue Jun 10 07:42:40 1997 From: ekman at lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Where do I find classic stuff in MN, SD, ND In-Reply-To: <199706090702.AAA12650@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Greetings! I will be going to the US next week and would naturally like to take the chance to find some classic stuff. It presently looks like I will be moving around the states Minnesota, South Dakota and North Dakota. Unfortunately, airline baggage regulations will not allow me to purchase any considerable amounts of hardware, so I will be mostly interested in software. Does anyone have any information about shops or other places in those states where I may purchase classic software (or hardware)? I mostly collect Commodore, but anything is of potential interest. /Fredrik From bwit at pobox.com Tue Jun 10 12:07:00 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (CSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 Message-ID: <01BC759F.71CF6B80@ppp-151-164-40-85.rcsntx.swbell.net> I have one of these and I believe it is based on the Intel 8086. Bob ---------- From: Marvin Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 1:21 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Tandy 600 In checking through the master computer lists, I found a Tandy 600 computer that is not listed. In checking through the docs, I can't find any reference to what the CPU is and I would prefer not to take it apart to find out:). Anyone know what CPU it uses? The manual was copyright 1985 but I don't know when the machine was actually released although I would *assume* 1985. It operates with MS-DOS style files and with all software residing in ROM. It appears that the basic machine comes with 32K of RAM expandable to 128K or 224K with special 96K upgrade kits. It is classified as a "lap-size" or "handheld" computer; this with the dimensions being 11 1/2" x 12 1/2" x 2 1/2" and weighing about 9 1/2 pounds. It comes with a 16 line x 80 character LCD screen, 3 1/2" drive and a build-in modem. Built in software includes MS Works V1.2 with Word, Calendar, File, Telecom, and Multiplan. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2005 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970610/2908348d/attachment-0001.bin From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 10 13:01:33 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff Message-ID: <199706101801.AA28899@world.std.com> HI, In my non-op list of equipment I have three cocos apparently operational. They are of two different styles. The smaller is the TRS80 color computer with real keys on the keyboard. I have two of these one the case was wiped out, board is ok. The larger is TDP-100 personal color computer with chiclet keys. Lacking docs I presume these have rom Basic. What expansion is possible (there is a port) and how hard. Do they run any real OSs or some TRShack? What's the odds of finding DOCS especially schematics? I have a xt class machine with an Intel Inboard386...(works too!) what's the odds of finding schemtics or expansion ram for it? The 1meg of ram is tight for somne stuff. Currently I use it as a 10x faster xt. Allison From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 10 14:07:40 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205208822@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> The Color Computers were: Color Computer 1: Silver/black, 4K-64K Color Computer 2: White, 4K-64K Color Computer 3: White, 64K-128K Micro Color Computer: White, tiny, 4K I've never heard of a TDP-100. The Color Computers had ROM BASIC and most serious users ran an operating system called OS-9 which was kind of like TopView. Expansion is via the cartridge slot. The floppy disk interface was implemented as a cartridge, with the floppy OS in ROM in the controller cartridge. CoCo floppy drives are rare. Floppies stored 156K. There was also a hard disk cartridge, believe it or not; plus, a Multi-Pak Interface which allowed you to connect four different carts and switch between them. There are lots of CoCo fanatics around, somebody probably sells parts and maybe even schematics. In regard to the Inboard/386, as I recall it had 1MB 32-bit RAM on the card, and could optionally use motherboard RAM which of course ran at a much slower rate. My memories may be confused with the Inboard/386 AT, but I seem to remember a daughtercard which could store an additional 2MB or so. Good luck finding a daughtercard though. Kai > ---------- > From: allisonp@world.std.com[SMTP:allisonp@world.std.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 11:01 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: cocos and stuff > > HI, > > In my non-op list of equipment I have three cocos apparently > operational. > They are of two different styles. > > The smaller is the TRS80 color computer with real keys on the > keyboard. > I have two of these one the case was wiped out, board is ok. > > The larger is TDP-100 personal color computer with chiclet keys. > > Lacking docs I presume these have rom Basic. What expansion is > possible > (there is a port) and how hard. Do they run any real OSs or some > TRShack? > > What's the odds of finding DOCS especially schematics? > > > I have a xt class machine with an Intel Inboard386...(works too!) > what's the > odds of finding schemtics or expansion ram for it? The 1meg of ram is > tight > for somne stuff. Currently I use it as a 10x faster xt. > > Allison > From BNICALEK at aol.com Tue Jun 10 14:08:46 1997 From: BNICALEK at aol.com (BNICALEK@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <970610150843_589119227@emout06.mail.aol.com> To clarify some statements that have already been made on the TI-99/4A, I'd like to comment: << True, that's bizarre... they appear to be especially common in the northwest. But just try to find a PEB! >> There were approximately 1+ million consoles manufactured by Texas Instruments from 1981 through early 1984. There were also approximately 250,000 Peripheral Expansion Systems also manufactured. So, while it's true there were more consoles, PEB's are not hard to find. << What I need is the Speech Editor cartridge! >> To Jeff Hellige - these are little rare to find, but are still available. I got mine for around $20 from someone in California. But, you can call up any vendor and get them from around $25-30, due to their rarity. << Personally, my opinion of the TI-99/4a varies from stupid piece of shit to semi-decent machine. Today I feel like stupid piece of shit. It was almost completely closed, it's BASIC sucked and was slow, it's keyboard sucked, and if it wasn't for the hordes of TI-99 faithfuls it would've been just a footnote. I don't understand what the big attraction was, but then, I came from the world of Apple ][, to which nothing could compare (uh oh, here come the holy wars). >> To Sam -- The TI-99/4A, in my opinion, is at the very least a semi-decent machine. The BASIC interpreter is what slowed things down a bit, but you have to look at it from a different perspective - no PEEKs or POKEs just to program graphics and/or sound, like some other machines (no, I'm good enough not to mention any names). The keyboard did "suck" compared to that of a PC, but it was very simple - especially suited towards children. From my own experience, I found the keyboard easy to use compared to a Commodore 64 - the touch response was better. The big attraction came from the fact that it was 16-bit, had full color, sprites (smoothly-moving objects), excellent speech synthesis, easy to use cartridges, and expandability. Some of the games were amazing (like Parsec and Alpiner) - way ahead of its time. And you can do word processing and spreadsheets with it as well. << Even the original PC was really bad, mostly closed design. They were all noteable as it told marketers what would fly and what had to be there. Amusingly the ti has what every P5 box has today, graphics, sound, games so they weren't that far off . >> Allison -- I couldn't agree with you more. The TI-99/4A was an amazing machine when you look back at all the components and features it had. It's still easier than my P120 I'm using to type this message - as there's no icons to click, no finagling around to get where you need to go or to do this. Just press 2 keys and you're in the program with the TI. Now that I call ease-of-use! << EVERYONE knows that MY COMMODORE 64 is WAY better than YOUR APPLE! >> To Les -- Yes, the Commodore 64 IS better than the Apple - I must admit! --------------------- And to Bill and others -- So you can begin to see with all these replies that people at least knew about the TI-99/4A and its positives/negatives. But that's to go with any machine. It's about what you learned on, and what you grew up with. In my case, this is the computer I learned on, and I'll stick with it forever because once you get used to one thing, it's hard to change sometimes. Same goes I'm sure for everyone else on this list server. The TI-99/4A was one of the most popular computers ever made back in the early 80's. Again, 1 million consoles gives you a hint. And, I'll tell you why they're like roaches sitting around -- most people bought them for around $50-100 when TI was going out of business (late 1983 into early 1984), played a few games on them, and then said, "I'm done!". Instead of throwing them in the garbage, they thought they were worth something, and now you see them all around in thrift stores. I even went to a local fair around town last year and picked one up for $5! But remember, for these people, that's all they wanted to do with this computer. But for those that were serious, you could do much, much more with it! Bryan Nicalek bnicalek@aol.com From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jun 10 14:15:42 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff Message-ID: <01IJWPY63BEA9355YE@cc.usu.edu> > The smaller is the TRS80 color computer with real keys on the keyboard. > I have two of these one the case was wiped out, board is ok. > >Lacking docs I presume these have rom Basic. What expansion is possible >(there is a port) and how hard. Do they run any real OSs or some TRShack? RS sold OS/9 for the color computer. I don't know what models are required to run it. >What's the odds of finding DOCS especially schematics? RS published a technical manual for the color computer; I have a copy of it somewhere. HOWEVER I found there's an app note from Motorola with schematics that almost exactly match those in the RS technical manual. I don't recall whether it was a 6809 app note or a 6847 app note though. If you can find a set of old Motorola data books you may be able to find it. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 10 14:55:21 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff Message-ID: <199706101955.AA21362@world.std.com> > Color Computer 2: White, 4K-64K One is definatly a coco2 with 64k. no question. > Color Computer 3: White, 64K-128K I suspect the board I have is one of these with 128k (four 41464s) and a lot of the logic is on an ASIC. > I've never heard of a TDP-100. The Color Computers had ROM BASIC and TDP is TANDY DATA PRODUCTS when tandy was trying to seperate from the Radiocrap idea in the early 80s. TDP-100 It's coco 6809, cart port and configureable for 16 or 64k. This one has 64k I suspect it's the COCO-1 but case color is white and black and keyboard is chicklet style. Has all the joystick connectors and the like. It's design is lots of chips compared to the other two I suspect early design. Also it's serial number 0000038! It also has lots of mods. The inboard386/pc and inboard386/at are similar save for one is designed to replace the 8088 and is 8-bit ISA and the other the 286 with 16bit ISA. The /PC version has 1mb of ram but with more (4mb) I could use it as a slow (it's 16mhz) linux box. A schematic of the connector for the ram expansion would be useful, I can hack my own board. The PC version cannot use the motherboard ram as far as I can see in the book and even if it could I need more. Allison From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 10 14:58:07 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051FF342@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <339DB1CF.5440@rain.org> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > Actually the Tandy 600 was a 1989 concoction. It looks like an early > Toshiba laptop, with flip-up narrow LCD display. It has Multiplan, a > subset of MS Word, a built-in modem, 360K 3.5" drive, 80x16 display, and > sold for $999. I passed up one of these at a swap meet a few weeks ago. > Your description almost fits this one but not quite. This one has a 3 1/2" drive (720K I believe). I doubt that a manual would be copyrighted 4 years or so ahead of when it was sold. Does your 1989 year imply that the Tandy 600 had at least a four year life span? I happened across this one when someone brought it to me to be repaired and didn't want it back. I ended up trading a 20 MB Seagate 225 for it, and the machine is in really good condition! From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 10 14:49:53 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205208822@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > The Color Computers were: > > Color Computer 1: Silver/black, 4K-64K > Color Computer 2: White, 4K-64K I have a CoCo2 that's yellow, and I don't think it's from aging. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From scott at saskatoon.com Tue Jun 10 15:03:18 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 In-Reply-To: <339DB1CF.5440@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: >Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >> >> Actually the Tandy 600 was a 1989 concoction. It looks like an early According to August 1987 Micro-80, the 600 came out in 1985, sported an 80c88 cpu and cost $1599. I hope this helps. ttfn srw From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Tue Jun 10 15:21:10 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: <970610150843_589119227@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: I have a question for you folks. I have a basic TI 99/4a.... that's it. No cables, no peripherals, no nothing with it. I am wanting to get this machine up to operation and am looking for anything that you folks might have available. I have a large assortment of running machines in my collection... TRS-80s, CoCo, Commodores, etc., etc., and would like to add this classic machine to my 'operational' collection. Can anyone help me out? Thanks in advance, CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 10 15:30:09 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <199706102030.AA20038@world.std.com> Hi, I should qualify myself as comming from when personal computer meant you owned a computer be it a minuteman-1 missle guidence computer(all transistor), mark-8 or a PDP-8! The TI99/4a was 81 technology and should be compared to that not a P1000000! This seems to occur often. It compared to the PCjr with the chicklet keyboard or COCO1 with same at a time when the osborne-1 totable was new and neat. Apple/III had bombed on the market. It compared to z80 based system at 4mhz and a few emerging at 6mhz or the other non-IBM-PC 8088/6 based s100 systems. There were even 68000 based system but 8mhz were fast ones. It was color! At a time when that capability was uncommon. It didn't require an engineer to hook it up or make it do something/anything. At that time S100 systems, apples, and the like were rarely packaged systems. The trs80 and others started something with ready to run boxes that were also slow and cranky. Can I say it better as...back then a lot of things were starting to shake out, emerge and outright happen. The TI99/4a was one of those and it was far cheaper than a PC even at it introduction price. 1980 to 1984 was an interesting time. Who knows, if IBM and intel didn't hook up we could be running unix on a fifth generation z8000. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 10 15:30:16 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff Message-ID: <199706102030.AA20240@world.std.com> > RS published a technical manual for the color computer; I have a copy of i > somewhere. HOWEVER I found there's an app note from Motorola with schemati > that almost exactly match those in the RS technical manual. I don't recal > whether it was a 6809 app note or a 6847 app note though. If you can find > set of old Motorola data books you may be able to find it. Since I have three distinctly different generation boards I suspect the moto prints would hold to the oldest. Allison From pcoad at crl.com Tue Jun 10 15:31:26 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Reminder: electronics/junk/computer sale June 14 Message-ID: This is a reminder for those in the San Francisco Bay area that on June 14 in Mountain View, there will be an junk/electronics sale. The location will be at Haltek (1062 Linda Vista Ave (Shoreline exit off 101)). I believe that this sale will have stuff from 7 different stores. The sale should run from 9am to 3pm. The stores participating are: Alltronics Campbell Techinical Excess Solutions Halted Specialities Haltek Test Labs Weirdstuff Directions: Take Highway 101 to Shoreline Blvd. West Turn Left on Terra Bella Turn left on Linda vista. Haltek is at the end of the road on the left. There will likely be a small get together (two people so far). Anyone who is interested in the get together let me know. There is a pretty good (if slightly expensive) Mexican food place nearby. Within a few miles from Haltek just about any kind of food can be found. I'm not associated with any of the participants, I just a customer. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jun 10 15:59:49 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: <970610150843_589119227@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: > There were approximately 1+ million consoles manufactured by Texas > Instruments from 1981 through early 1984. There were also approximately > 250,000 Peripheral Expansion Systems also manufactured. So, while it's true > there were more consoles, PEB's are not hard to find. True enough - but of the four I've come accross only 1 had a fex cable still attached to the interface. Ak. > touch response was better. The big attraction came from the fact that it was > 16-bit, had full color, sprites (smoothly-moving objects), excellent speech > synthesis, easy to use cartridges, and expandability. Some of the games were > amazing (like Parsec and Alpiner) - way ahead of its time. And you can do > word processing and spreadsheets with it as well. I'll agree here. While I'll probably never do any serious hacking on the TI, playing Miner 2049er is what it's all about ;) > << EVERYONE knows that MY COMMODORE 64 is WAY better than YOUR APPLE! >> It's hard to have holy wars like the old days when you now own all the machines you used to make fun of. > The TI-99/4A was one of the most popular computers ever made back in the > early 80's. Again, 1 million consoles gives you a hint. And, I'll tell you > why they're like roaches sitting around -- most people bought them for around > $50-100 when TI was going out of business (late 1983 into early 1984), played > a few games on them, and then said, "I'm done!". Instead of throwing them in > the garbage, they thought they were worth something, and now you see them all > around in thrift stores. I even went to a local fair around town last year > and picked one up for $5! But remember, for these people, that's all they > wanted to do with this computer. But for those that were serious, you could > do much, much more with it! I'd say a million machines pretty much explains everything. I must say that a TI99/4A hooked up with a PEB is overall a pretty neat little machine. It's really kind of sad - the average 99 I see is really beat up and missing all it's accessories. I used to pick them up here and there to use for spares but I think most of them are probably destined for the trash. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 10 16:00:26 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <199706102100.AA14628@world.std.com> > I have a question for you folks. I have a basic TI 99/4a.... that's it. N > cables, no peripherals, no nothing with it. I am wanting to get this Minimally you need the power brick that was 18Vac and 8.5vac, and also the video cable that took compossite color to channel 3/4 or the other that allowed direct hookup to the TI color monitor. FYI sams photofact had a print set for the machine and it was set CC2, TI99/4a model PHC004a. There was also a 66 page technical manual from TI on the console and expansion box. Allison From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Tue Jun 10 16:25:25 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <199706101955.AA21362@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199706102125.QAA29618@fudge.uchicago.edu> Allison J Parent said, > > I've never heard of a TDP-100. The Color Computers had ROM BASIC and > > TDP is TANDY DATA PRODUCTS when tandy was trying to seperate from the > Radiocrap idea in the early 80s. Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 was a Coco with added serial hardware included so that Radio Shack could sell it as a color video terminal. Does anyone else remember this, or am I completely out of my mind? eric From scott at saskatoon.com Tue Jun 10 16:36:14 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <199706102125.QAA29618@fudge.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Eric Fischer wrote: >> > I've never heard of a TDP-100. The Color Computers had ROM BASIC and >> >> TDP is TANDY DATA PRODUCTS when tandy was trying to seperate from the > >Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 >was a Coco with added serial hardware included so that Radio >Shack could sell it as a color video terminal. Does anyone >else remember this, or am I completely out of my mind? Wasn't that the VideoTex terminal? I'd have to dig through some old catalogs to be sure, though. >eric ttfn srw From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 10 16:56:49 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205215BE4@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> The 99/4A DIN video pinout is (format in monospace for best readability): 3 1 5 4 2 where (and no, I didn't write these descriptions, they're pretty bizarre. I typed them verbatim; if anyone can shed some light on these, let us know): 1. "12v vid" 2. R-Y (colorburst clock) 3. Audio out 4. Y 5. B-Y (ext video input?) U. Ground Kai > ---------- > From: Cord Coslor[SMTP:coslor@pscosf.peru.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 1:21 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: TI-99/4A Comments > > I have a question for you folks. I have a basic TI 99/4a.... that's > it. No > cables, no peripherals, no nothing with it. I am wanting to get this > machine up to operation and am looking for anything that you folks > might > have available. I have a large assortment of running machines in my > collection... TRS-80s, CoCo, Commodores, etc., etc., and would like to > add > this classic machine to my 'operational' collection. Can anyone help > me > out? > > Thanks in advance, > > CORD > > //*=================================================================== > ==++ > || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, > NE || > || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu > 68421-0308 || > || Classic computer software and hardware collector > || > || Autograph collector > || > ++==================================================================== > =*// > > From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 10 17:04:26 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 References: Message-ID: <339DCF6A.3B4B@rain.org> Scott Walde wrote: > > According to August 1987 Micro-80, the 600 came out in 1985, sported an > 80c88 cpu and cost $1599. I hope this helps. > Wow, that was one expensive computer! Thanks for the additional info AND source!!! From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jun 10 18:06:23 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: 4004 Message-ID: <339DDDEF.5120@ndirect.co.uk> Please have a look at my collection at: I am looking for a 4004 microprocessor. Also for an 8008. Does anybody know of one going for sale? I will pay cash or have many British computers for trade/swap. Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From s-ware at nwu.edu Tue Jun 10 17:21:26 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: <199706102100.AA14628@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > I have a question for you folks. I have a basic TI 99/4a.... that's it. N > > cables, no peripherals, no nothing with it. I am wanting to get this > > Minimally you need the power brick that was 18Vac and 8.5vac, and also the > video cable that took compossite color to channel 3/4 or the other that > allowed direct hookup to the TI color monitor. After the collapse of the market for the TI 99/4a, Radio Shack sold many of the parts (including the keyboard, the internal switching power supply, and the RF modulator/switchbox) separately as surplus items. At one point in time, I replaced the membrane keyboard, overloaded 7805, and abysmal RF modulator in my ZX81 with surplus TI equivalents. With a heatsink on the ULA and a wobble-free RAM expansion, the ZX81's uptime was enough to make the average Win95 user jealous. Not that that's saying much, though. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu ware@interaccess.com From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 10 17:13:16 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff References: Message-ID: <339DD17C.38FC@rain.org> Scott Walde wrote: > > On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Eric Fischer wrote: > >Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 > >was a Coco with added serial hardware included so that Radio > >Shack could sell it as a color video terminal. Does anyone > >else remember this, or am I completely out of my mind? > > Wasn't that the VideoTex terminal? I'd have to dig through some old > catalogs to be sure, though. VideoTex, I hadn't heard that term in a while. A while back, I got an AT&T Sceptre VideoTex terminal and was curious what it was; seemed appropriate for the collection and the price was right :). Did VideoTex die, was it a fad, a failed attempt at something, or what? From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 10 17:21:55 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff References: <199706101955.AA21362@world.std.com> Message-ID: <339DD383.32EA@rain.org> Allison J Parent wrote: > > The inboard386/pc and inboard386/at are similar save for one is designed to > replace the 8088 and is 8-bit ISA and the other the 286 with 16bit ISA. > The /PC version has 1mb of ram but with more (4mb) I could use it as a slow > (it's 16mhz) linux box. A schematic of the connector for the ram expansion > would be useful, I can hack my own board. The PC version cannot use the > motherboard ram as far as I can see in the book and even if it could I need > more. > I took a look at the one I have but didn't find any docs (it is the PC version.) It does have the daughter board though with the maiximum 2 MB of ram installed using 256-12 chips. From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jun 10 17:56:09 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: <199706102030.AA20038@world.std.com> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 16:30:09 -0400 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: TI-99/4A Comments > Hi, > > Can I say it better as...back then a lot of things were starting to shake > out, emerge and outright happen. The TI99/4a was one of those and it was > far cheaper than a PC even at it introduction price. 1980 to 1984 was an > interesting time. Who knows, if IBM and intel didn't hook up we could be > running unix on a fifth generation z8000. What a wornderful world it would be . . . > > Allison > Jeff From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 10 17:53:32 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Power cable for Cromemco Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205215C62@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Hi all, I'm looking for a power cable for my Cromemco System 3. It's kind of a bizarre cable. The recessed male panel jack is a flattened oval, 1" by 1/2", with 3 conductors. The center ground pin is very slightly offset from the other two pins. Any thoughts where I can get one of these? thanks Kai From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 10 19:01:06 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Power cable for Cromemco In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205215C62@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Jun 10, 97 03:53:32 pm Message-ID: <9706102301.AA02718@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 620 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970610/762254d7/attachment-0001.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 10 19:13:37 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: 4004 In-Reply-To: <339DDDEF.5120@ndirect.co.uk> from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 10, 97 11:06:23 pm Message-ID: <9706102313.AA26330@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 276 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970610/a0699af9/attachment-0001.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 10 18:24:30 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff Message-ID: <199706102324.AA25005@world.std.com> > Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 > was a Coco with added serial hardware included so that Radio > Shack could sell it as a color video terminal. Does anyone > else remember this, or am I completely out of my mind? Looking at the board and my moto data book says no serial devices (6850 or the like). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 10 18:24:37 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <199706102324.AA25106@world.std.com> > > After the collapse of the market for the TI 99/4a, Radio Shack sold many > of the parts (including the keyboard, the internal switching power supply The TI99/4a is not a switcher. I have both the RS powersupply board and two TI99/4a (a black one and a grey one) and neither use a switcher! Now the original ti99/4 with the chicklet keyboard (scarce) did use the switcher. Allison From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 10 18:49:34 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: 4004 References: <339DDDEF.5120@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <339DE80D.7D38@rain.org> e.tedeschi wrote: > > Please have a look at my collection at: > > > I just took a look ... VERY nice! How long has the museum been in existence and how long have you been collecting? > I am looking for a 4004 microprocessor. Also for an 8008. Does anybody > know of one going for sale? I will pay cash or have many British > computers for trade/swap. > One of the early arcade "games", a unit called BioRhythm" used the 4004 as the processor. Wish I hadn't gotten rid of them all now! I don't know if they were exported your way or not. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jun 10 18:48:01 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: Power cable for Cromemco In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205215C62@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > I'm looking for a power cable for my Cromemco System 3. It's kind of a > bizarre cable. The recessed male panel jack is a flattened oval, 1" by > 1/2", with 3 conductors. The center ground pin is very slightly offset > from the other two pins. > > Any thoughts where I can get one of these? Actually, not too odd at all. Don't know about currently (as I've not looked for a while) but these used to be quite common on office equipment. And... (if you did not see this coming) I think I have a spare or two around... (gotta turn over *all* of those rocks!) Bad ASCII art warning! /-------------\ | O O | | O | \-------------/ Looks something (nothing?) like this? eh? If you don't turn one up local, let me know and I'll try to find one to send along with the other stuff... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jun 10 18:51:43 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: 4004 In-Reply-To: <9706102313.AA26330@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Please have a look at my collection at: > > > > > > I am looking for a 4004 microprocessor. Also for an 8008. > > Every PDP-11/34a with an octal front panel has a 8008 running the > display and keypad. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) EEK! Surely you are not advocating the sacrifice of a perfectly good 11/34a just to obtain one measly chip?!? ...of course, if you are... send the rest of the parts to me! B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 10 18:56:01 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: 4004 Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20521E701@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I know where you can get a BioRythm, but not if you want to pull the chip out... Kai > ---------- > From: Marvin[SMTP:marvin@rain.org] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 4:49 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: 4004 > > e.tedeschi wrote: > > > > Please have a look at my collection at: > > > > > > > > I just took a look ... VERY nice! How long has the museum been in > existence and how long have you been collecting? > > > I am looking for a 4004 microprocessor. Also for an 8008. Does > anybody > > know of one going for sale? I will pay cash or have many British > > computers for trade/swap. > > > > One of the early arcade "games", a unit called BioRhythm" used the > 4004 > as the processor. Wish I hadn't gotten rid of them all now! I don't > know if they were exported your way or not. > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 10 19:58:19 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: 4004 In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Jun 10, 97 04:51:43 pm Message-ID: <9706102358.AA09398@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 663 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970610/84e1761b/attachment-0001.ksh From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 10 19:12:48 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > It's hard to have holy wars like the old days when you now own all the > machines you used to make fun of. What a great line. It's FAQ-worthy. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 10 19:01:29 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: new stuff Message-ID: I couldn't resist going into a favorite thrift store today, and boy what a find I made. First there's the Tandy 1000EX. Cool, but definitely not as cool as the Burroughs adding machine! I have no idea what year this thing is from, but it's case is made of a steel frame with glass sides so you can see the mechanisms inside. I don't know how much it's worth, but I picked it up for $50. This thing is heavy (about 50-60lbs). I love it! I'm going to make it the centerpiece of my in-home museum (someday). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 10 19:05:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > I have a question for you folks. I have a basic TI 99/4a.... that's it. No > cables, no peripherals, no nothing with it. I am wanting to get this > machine up to operation and am looking for anything that you folks might > have available. I have a large assortment of running machines in my > collection... TRS-80s, CoCo, Commodores, etc., etc., and would like to add > this classic machine to my 'operational' collection. Can anyone help me > out? Your best bet is to go out to a loca thrift store or swap meet and try to find the power supply, video switchbox and what-not. You'll probably even manage to find an entire TI-99/4a with all the trimmings, and you can just use your current one for parts. Believe me, they are easy to find. I just picked one up today for $.99 (nintey-nine cents). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From sinasohn at crl.com Tue Jun 10 20:13:04 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970610182006.4107a0e8@mail.crl.com> At 02:01 PM 6/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >(there is a port) and how hard. Do they run any real OSs or some TRShack? I am told that OS-9 is a pretty good OS, but I don't have any real experience with it. I'm sure there are OS-9 resources out on the net somewhere... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 10 20:45:32 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: 4004 References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20521E701@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <339E033C.5FC9@rain.org> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > I know where you can get a BioRythm, but not if you want to pull the > chip out... > Actually, I'm not interested in getting one although they might be neat from an applications standpoint. I think I still have the docs on the 4004 and the 8008, hmmm, maybe even that BioRhythm machine. At any rate, I wouldn't pull chips from anything working just to get the component. I have a hand built ???? that looks like it might have been used for laser communication or sensing with a CK722 transistor in it. The transistor is smaller :) but there the unit sits. From sprague at VivaNET.com Wed Jun 11 00:17:31 1997 From: sprague at VivaNET.com (Mike Sprague) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:18 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff (and Tanyo Dragon computer) References: <199706101801.AA28899@world.std.com> Message-ID: <339E34EB.5684@VivaNET.com> Since we are talking about the CoCo here, I thought I would add that All Electronics (1-800-826-5432) is selling "Dragon 32 Joysticks" for $3.50 a pair. They claim that they were originally for a video game, but in fact they were actually for the Tanyo Dragon computer. The Dragon was an English CoCo clone (though had a parallel printer port rather than serial). These joysticks should work fine with a CoCo. So, if your actually looking for joysticks for a CoCo .... :-) BTW: Any one know where I can get a floppy controller for the Tanyo Dragon? I have the dragon, and would like to get it working with Floppy drives. CoCo BASIC programs are 99% compatible with the Dragon, but things written in assembly language (Floppy controllers and the better games) rarely are. ~ Mike From foxnhare at goldrush.com Tue Jun 10 23:55:33 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: Ccanner/Dig Cam/Camcorder? References: <199706070702.AAA03643@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <339E2FC5.7FED@goldrush.com> >Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:54:59 -0700 >From: Uncle Roger >Subject: Digital Imaging (was: Re: Chisolm) >I have been trying to decide the best way to get images into digital form. >Naturally, a digital camera is one way, but not the only. There's also the >photo/scanner method, camcorder/video capture, and probably others. As I >see it, the pros/cons are: >DigCam: + Easy to use, convenient > - Expensive to buy, somewhat limited capacity, > no hard copy of images (except printer output) >Photo/Scanner: + Hard Copy, can be used for other stuff too > - Film and Developing can be expensive, takes time >Camcorder: + Easy to use, Allows for selecting the right image > from several views > - Video capture hardware/software isn't cheap >So, does anyone have thoughts on which is best? I'd like a scanner for >other things, but they're expensive too. There's also the question of 35mm >vs. polaroid and type of scanner. (Not to mention where the heck would I >put it!) I've got a camcorder and my girlfriend's mac supposedly can do >video capture as is, but I've got to find software and figure it out. -----------> I myself went with the scanner, mainly because I want to do some OCR with it as well as scanning, flat bed is better than a ahndheld, and you would not believe the prices nowadays. You can get a new Microtek E3 for under $200! (for IBM or Mac!) Check your local discount mail-order firm. - - - - - - - - BTW (and to keep on-topic), anyone know of some decent OCR software that can reliably convert dot-matrix hard copy? The Omnipage LE (shipped with the scanner) can't make heads or tails out of most of it (and barely works with the dot-matrix stuff it can. :/ (I have a couple issues of the Commodore Gazzette (pre-COMPUTE!) and alot of it is dot matrix.) Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed Jun 11 01:00:37 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 79 References: <199706100702.AAA57162@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <339E3F05.1979@goldrush.com> >From: Doug Spence >Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) >On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote: >> At 11:24 PM 6/1/97 -0700, you wrote: >> ><...> >> >> accessories including a CP/M cartridge for C64 >> > >> >A CP/M _carthridge_? Awesome. >> >> I just tried it yesterday. Pretty cool. The Z80 is in the cartridge. The >> package comes with a CP/M 2.2 diskette for 1541 and a condensed CP/M manual >> by Commodore (copyright 1983). There is a K-Mart price tag on the original >> box that reads $54. Not bad. NOTE: the Commodore CP/M Cart is only usable on the oldest of the 64s (usually models with the 5-pin DIN plug for video. It would seem that when Commodore debugged some video problems they tweaked the system speed slightly which made the CP/M cartridge unusable. >This reminds me... I also have a Z80 cartridge for the C64. But it's not >the one from Commodore. It's from a company called DATA 20 Corporation. >I haven't been able to get it to work. It has what looks like a connector >for a power supply on the back, but I didn't get the PS with it. It also >came without any disks, though it did have a cassette in the box with it, >which says "Use side A for Commodore 64/Use side B for VIC 20". >It's a Z-80 Video Pak, that combines the Z80 processor AND an 80-column >display adapter into one (big fat) cartridge. Are you sure the plug isn't for some sort of video cable contraption? (the Data-20 carts usually sported an 80 column composite video output.) >To quote from the box: > The Z-80 Video Pak brings the convenience of an 80 column screen and > the power of a CP/M compatible operating system to the Commodore 64. > Designed to be used with a monitor, the Z-80 Video Pak lets the > Commodore 64 owner switch to a 40 or 80 column screen in black and > white, or back to the standard color screen. All switching is done > through software and no cables need to be moved. > The Z-80 Video Pak has its own Z-80 microprocessor and operating > system which allows the 64 to run CP/M software formatted for the > Commodore 1541 disk drive. A Terminal mode which brings communication > with central data bases is included at no extra cost. The Z-80 Video > Pak also supports the advanced screen handling features of all Video > Pak models such as erase to the end of line, erase to end of screen, > and dump screen to printer. >If anyone out there knows this thing's power requirements (AAAGH! Another >wall-wart!) and where to get CP/M disks in 1541 format, please tell. :) If there is power needed for it, I haven't seen anything mentioning requirements... yet. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed Jun 11 01:13:14 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 79 References: <199706100702.AAA57162@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <339E41FA.6B63@goldrush.com> >Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:47:56 -0700 (PDT) >From: Sam Ismail >Subject: C64 thingy >I picked up a Commodore 64 a while ago that had this special board >inside. It was inserted between the keyboard and the motherboard. IE. >it had a connector that plugged into the keyboard rolex connector on the >motherboard and then the keyboard ribbon cable plugged into it. Then it >had a 9-pin male D-type connector than came out the back of the C64. My >guess is that it was for a numeric keypad or something. I forgot what >was stamped on the circuit board. Any ideas? Sounds like a keypad connector to me, I think it may be a Cardco keypad (there I think was an option to plug it into the joystick port and interface it via software. I have some other brand which uses a DIP connector (like old apple paddle/joysticks), unfortunately I do not have the 64 with the interface board though. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 01:16:19 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: (fwd) Re: CPM-L Digest - 5 Jun 1997 to 6 Jun 1997 (fwd) Message-ID: Another one, hope someone gets lucky. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Z100 free Conditions: YOU PICK UP. YOU TAKE ALL SOFTWARE AND MANUALS I live in Northeastern Maryland. Close to an I95 exit. If interested email me at ltelets@tec1.apg.army.mil It has two 5 and a quarter floppies amd a detached monochrome monitor. It runs but could make a fine boat anchor *8^) -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 01:14:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: (fwd) Free CPM computer (fwd) Message-ID: Hope someone can take advantage of this. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- TeleVideo TS802 computer uupdated with 20 meg hard drive (partitioned 10/10). Its free. Machine has several upgrades; CPU speed 5 mhz, faster memory chips, Zsystem operating system. User friendly ZCPR plus auto loading function keys and a whole bunch of other upgrades I forget. Has Wordstar ver. 4.0, dBase ll loaded and configured on the hard drive. Machine has original manual and shipping carton. It's located in Edmonton, AB, Canada you can contact me: peterc@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Peter -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 01:17:28 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: (fwd) CP/M Hardware For Sale (fwd) Message-ID: One more...hope this doesn't get annoying. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- I have the following CP/M hardware for sale: ************************* K10 ****************************** Kaypro 10 v1.9E (1983?) Boots: KAYPRO 60K CP/M Version 2.2H Occasionally returns BDOS errors when writing to the hard drive. I suspect it needs to be replaced (but maybe a good low-level format would help?) Does not have system disks (I bought it "as-is" with system installed on the hard drive). I do, however, have a copy of of the Kaypro Technical manual (the real McCoy, used by the technicians...) and the padded carrying case. Will sell all three and ship anywhere in the lower 48 for $70. ************************** K4 ****************************** Kaypro 4 (semi-cannabalized) System was plugged in when a lighting strike hit power lines System no longer sees the keyboard -- the keyboard is good and worked on another Kaypro. As I recall, the following subsystems are still good: keyboard, monitor, 2 half-height diskette drives, and most of the motherboard. (no pwr supply) Will sell and ship anywhere in the lower 48 for $35. Send email to: 72530.1626@compuserve.com If you're conveniently located in the Southeast Michigan area or Northwest Ohio (or willing to drive there), we can set up a local pickup and dispense with the hassle and expense of shipping. Thank you. From: David Venzke Compuserve: 72530,1626 Internet: 72530.1626@compuserve.com -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 11 01:38:01 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: 5 1/2" Drives References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20521E701@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <339E033C.5FC9@rain.org> Message-ID: <339E47C9.361A@rain.org> Tonight was the meeting of the Classic Computer Club here in Santa Barbara, CA. and one of the subjects brought up was the usefulness or uselessness of the old 5 1/5" floppy drives. Do any of you collectors have a use for them or need them to complete a given machine? We have a guy here in town who has been repairing these types of drives for a long time and apparently has quite a few. I probably have between 50 and 100 of these things I "saved" from the dumpster that include the early full height PC drives and the older 100 TPI drives used on the Vector machines, condition unknown in most cases. From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 01:30:57 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) Message-ID: My GOD! Has anyone seen this??? SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- here's the major info about the mini's now sitting under the Tucson sun, soon to be landfill...... PDP 11/34: two machines - one with 3 lights, 2 toggle switches and a rotary switch; one with a 4x5 keypad, rotary switch, and little digital display (led's?) PDP 11/35: full front panel with maybe 35 switches in a row across the bottom (sort of like an Imsai) Industrial 11 (in pieces) front panel looks something like 11/35, but in red and blue (even more like Imsai) RX02 pair of 8" disk drives in a box several assorted hard drives, rack mount, desk-top 14" (VERY heavy!), 9672-type CDC disk drive in cabinet, etc VAX 11/780 double-wide 5-1/2 foot high cabinet - can't get to the front so don't know if there's anybody home there..... Large rack mounted tape unit....about all I can tell is it's DEC Rack box (sitting on the ground) RK05f DEC Pack DECScope - looks sort of like a desk-top micro all-in-one keyboard/monitor several other DEC racks; many reels of tape; manuals; misc also many terminal/monitors I doubt this stuff will be around for more than a day or two..... bill_h@azstarnet.com -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 11 02:38:30 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: 4004 References: <339DDDEF.5120@ndirect.co.uk> <339DE80D.7D38@rain.org> Message-ID: <339E55F6.4E96@ndirect.co.uk> Thank you very much for your answers and suggestion about the 4004 and the 8008 I am looking for. What I would like to point out is that, if I find a machine which has them (it) in it, I would pull the chip out to put it on display, BUT I would NOT break up the machine at all. It will go with all the other items in my collection (please go and see) so that, one day, if I really wanted to, I could put the chip back where it belongs. So now that I explained myself, can anybody help me with this? I imagine the PDP is out of question due to shipping difficulties but the BioRyhtm sound small enough. More info? Thank you very much! enrico From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 11 02:49:25 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: 4004 References: <9706102313.AA26330@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <339E5885.46A8@ndirect.co.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Please have a look at my collection at: > > > > > > > > I am looking for a 4004 microprocessor. Also for an 8008. > > Every PDP-11/34a with an octal front panel has a 8008 running the > display and keypad. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) Thank you for your help BUT I suppose the PDP would be too big and heavy for shipping it my way. Any other suggestion? Thank you very much enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jun 10 22:05:36 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: 4004 In-Reply-To: <339E55F6.4E96@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <199706110705.DAA14307@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 07:38:30 +0000 > What I would like to point out is that, if I find a machine which has > them (it) in it, I would pull the chip out to put it on display, BUT I > would NOT break up the machine at all. It will go with all the other > items in my collection (please go and see) so that, one day, if I really > wanted to, I could put the chip back where it belongs. > > So now that I explained myself, can anybody help me with this? I imagine > the PDP is out of question due to shipping difficulties but the BioRyhtm > sound small enough. More info? > > Thank you very much! > > enrico Hi, The grey/beige HP terminal with heavy keyboard that have black and white "squashed" monitor shaped does have this 8008 chip in one of its "card". Accessible by tripping two catches between the shells to hinge up the monitor to reveal the cards in bottom case part. Jason D. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 11 10:16:31 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <199706101801.AA28899@world.std.com>; from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 10, 97 2:01 pm Message-ID: <199706110916.17440@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > HI, > > In my non-op list of equipment I have three cocos apparently operational. > They are of two different styles. > > The smaller is the TRS80 color computer with real keys on the keyboard. > I have two of these one the case was wiped out, board is ok. > > The larger is TDP-100 personal color computer with chiclet keys. > > Lacking docs I presume these have rom Basic. What expansion is possible > (there is a port) and how hard. Do they run any real OSs or some TRShack? There is a ROM basic, which is essentially Microsoft. This may either be 'Color Basic' (lacks high-res graphics commands, etc) or 'Extended Color Basic'. The expansion port is a 40 way edge connector, and is the 6809 system bus with a few extras. I can find a pinout if you need it. I mentioned the OS's a few days back. If you have a disk drive, you will have disk basic in ROM. You can run 'color TRS-DOS' from disk (pretty simple OS) or OS-9 if you have 64K. OS-9, is (IMHO) a real OS. > > What's the odds of finding DOCS especially schematics? Very high. Tandy were hacker-friendly, and you could get service manuals for all their computer stuff (I have the CoCo 3 service manual). There's also a CoCo TechRef that includes the CoCo1 schematics with more explanations than the service manual gives. > Allison -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 11 10:19:26 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205208822@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>; from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Jun 10, 97 12:07 (noon) Message-ID: <199706110919.17453@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > The Color Computers were: > > Color Computer 1: Silver/black, 4K-64K > Color Computer 2: White, 4K-64K > Color Computer 3: White, 64K-128K You mean 128K-512K, I think. The CoCo 3 needed 16 bit wide RAM for the video system, and used either 4 off 64K*4 chips on the main board, or a daughterboard with 16 off 256K * 1 chips on it. Some hackers went up to 2M I think > Micro Color Computer: White, tiny, 4K > > I've never heard of a TDP-100. The Color Computers had ROM BASIC and > most serious users ran an operating system called OS-9 which was kind of > like TopView. OS-9 is actually a lot more like Unix (at least to a user). There was a graphical frontend called 'Multiview' (or some similar spelling) for OS-9 level 2, but you need a CoCo 3 and 512K to run that. > Kai -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 11 10:20:43 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <01IJWPY63BEA9355YE@cc.usu.edu>; from "Roger Ivie" at Jun 10, 97 1:15 pm Message-ID: <199706110920.17469@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > RS sold OS/9 for the color computer. I don't know what models are required > to run it. Level 1 : CoCo 1 or 2 with 64K and at least 1 drive Level 2 : CoCo 3 with 128K (512K preferably) and at least 1 drive. > > >What's the odds of finding DOCS especially schematics? > > RS published a technical manual for the color computer; I have a copy of it > somewhere. HOWEVER I found there's an app note from Motorola with schematics > that almost exactly match those in the RS technical manual. I don't recall > whether it was a 6809 app note or a 6847 app note though. If you can find a > set of old Motorola data books you may be able to find it. It's probably a 6883 (SAM) app note, isn't it? > > Roger Ivie > ivie@cc.usu.edu > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 11 10:21:59 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <199706101955.AA21362@world.std.com>; from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 10, 97 3:55 pm Message-ID: <199706110921.17485@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Color Computer 3: White, 64K-128K > > I suspect the board I have is one of these with 128k (four 41464s) and > a lot of the logic is on an ASIC. That's a 128K CoCo3. The ASIC is called the GIME (Graphics, Interrupts, Memory Enhancement) chip, and contains the video system, trivial MMU, interrupt logic, etc. > Allison -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 11 10:24:02 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <199706102125.QAA29618@fudge.uchicago.edu>; from "Eric Fischer" at Jun 10, 97 4:25 pm Message-ID: <199706110924.17497@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 > was a Coco with added serial hardware included so that Radio > Shack could sell it as a color video terminal. Does anyone > else remember this, or am I completely out of my mind? There was (I think) a thing in a CoCo case that was sold as a videotext terminal. It had a built-in (300 baud?) modem, and linked to a colour TV. I've never seen one (it wasn't sold in the UK for obvious reasons), and have no idea if the circuitry is related to the CoCo or not. > > eric > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 11 03:44:48 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: 4004 References: <199706110705.DAA14307@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <339E6580.3E5D@ndirect.co.uk> > Hi, The grey/beige HP terminal with heavy keyboard that have > black and white "squashed" monitor shaped does have this 8008 chip > in one of its "card". Accessible by tripping two catches between the > shells to hinge up the monitor to reveal the cards in bottom case > part. > > Jason D. Very nice info. Unfortunately it would be difficult for me to bump into one of those in this country but if any of you does would he/she PLEASE get it for me? Thank you -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jun 11 08:59:37 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: 4004 In-Reply-To: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca's message of Wed, 11 Jun 1997 03:05:36 +0000 References: <199706110705.DAA14307@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199706111359.GAA03746@daemonweed.reanimators.org> jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca writes: > Hi, The grey/beige HP terminal with heavy keyboard that have > black and white "squashed" monitor shaped does have this 8008 chip > in one of its "card". Accessible by tripping two catches between the > shells to hinge up the monitor to reveal the cards in bottom case > part. What you're writing about is the HP 264X line of terminals. They don't all use 8008 CPUs. The 2640s do, but I'm sure the 2645s use 8080s (and think the 2641, 2644, 2648A do too), and the 2647F uses some proprietary HP CPU. Not sure about 2642, 2647A, or the 2649s which are customized for specific applications, e.g. there was a flavor of 2649 used as the system console for HP 3000/33 minis. Fun terminals. I could go on for a while about them. The 2640s and 2641/4/5s have a facility allowing the downloading of code from the host. Somewhere around here I have a Space Invaders game and a Pac-Man game that run in the 2645s, and have heard of a driving game. Also have heard that some folks in the Gaithersburg, MD area turned a 2645 into some sort of BBS some years ago. The "two catches" are hidden. Look on the case left and right sides, you will see horizontal slots between the base and the CRT housing. Inside those horizontal slots, a couple of inches back from the front, are vertical slots. The object is to stick a "terminal key" (basically a thin flat piece of metal, but a stiff paperclip can be made to serve) into those slots to push open the catches that are at the top of the slots. While pushing, lift the CRT housing. If like most of us you have no more than two hands (and only one key) you may find it convenient to do one side at a time, which is OK. -Frank McConnell From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 11 10:19:36 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: 4004 In-Reply-To: <339E5885.46A8@ndirect.co.uk> from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 11, 97 07:49:25 am Message-ID: <9706111419.AA10876@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 338 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970611/8346c209/attachment-0001.ksh From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 11 09:40:32 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > > << EVERYONE knows that MY COMMODORE 64 is WAY better than YOUR APPLE! >> > > It's hard to have holy wars like the old days when you now own all the > machines you used to make fun of. Ah, but once you own and _really_ learn the flaws in your old foes, you can make fun of them more knowledgeably, instead of the simple ad hominem arguments we had back in the early eighties. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 11 09:49:51 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: <199706102125.QAA29618@fudge.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Eric Fischer wrote: > Allison J Parent said, > > > I've never heard of a TDP-100. The Color Computers had ROM BASIC and > > TDP is TANDY DATA PRODUCTS when tandy was trying to seperate from the > > Radiocrap idea in the early 80s. The TDP-100 was a TRS-80 Color Computer with a different paint job that could be sold by non-Tandy retailers such as Sears and K-Mart. Nothing more, nothing less. > Somewhere in the back of my head I had the ideathat a TDP-100 > was a Coco with added serial hardware included so that Radio > Shack could sell it as a color video terminal. Does anyone > else remember this, or am I completely out of my mind? The TRS-80 Videotex Terminal was basically a Color Computer that had the CompuServe Videotex program built into it instead of BASIC and an integral 300 baud modem. Possibly one of the dumbest concepts ever done by Tandy Corporation and despite being an employee I said so at the time. (The absolute stupidest move done by the company of course was the complete disavowal of third party products for so many years). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From idavis at comland.com Wed Jun 11 09:52:42 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: Scanner/Dig Cam/Camcorder? Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970611145242.008f51d4@mail.comland.com > >>DigCam: + Easy to use, convenient >> - Expensive to buy, somewhat limited capacity, >> no hard copy of images (except printer output) > >>Photo/Scanner: + Hard Copy, can be used for other stuff too >> - Film and Developing can be expensive, takes time > >>Camcorder: + Easy to use, Allows for selecting the right image >> from several views >> - Video capture hardware/software isn't cheap > Well, I guess it's time to put my two cents in. I own a Kodak DC20 digital camera, and a handheld color scanner. The digital camera is the basic model, no frills. It holds 8 hi res pics, and 16 low res pics. As far as quality goes, it really depends on the lighting conditions and the distance that you are going to be shooting at. It can get some incredible pictures, but it does have it share of bad ones. As far as taking pictures of our computers, it is great for taking good desriptive pictures (here's my pdp 11...) If you wanted to take a picture of a circuit board and be able to make out the chip numbers and wiring, forget it. It has decent resolution, but nothing like a scanner and a 35mm photo, and the light has to be right with this camera, since there is no flash (yet). I usually save the pictures in jpeg format, and each hi-res picture is about 25-35k. Not too bad on the storage side. My handheld color scanner is absolutely great. Unfortunately, I am always wanting to scan something in 1" wider than the scanner, which makes it a real pain even with great picture editing software. I would really recommend a flatbed scanner, but you might as well grab another hard drive while you are at it. Those color hi-res pictures take up more space than it took to put a man on the moon. Also, as a side note, it takes about 55 seconds to warm up the bulb on the color scanner. It's not a major gripe, just an inconvenience. Bottom line: My suggestion is - If you are looking to take pictures of your collection (for personal or insurance reasons) and store them in a safe, and take a buch of cheap pictures of your kids, go with the digital camera. If you are looking to scan in boards and pieces of equipment, and are looking for extreme detail, I would go with the scanner. I find that having both is really convenient, and I can pretty much get the results that I am looking for and not be dissappointed with either. If I only owned one of them, I could definitely see times when I would not be happy with the results. As for the Camcorder products, those are next on my list. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Wed Jun 11 10:30:42 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: new stuff In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Jun 1997 17:01:29 PDT." Message-ID: <199706111530.KAA07382@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> In message , dastar@crl. com writes: >Cool but definitely not >as cool as the Burroughs adding machine! I have no idea what year this >thing is from, but it's case is made of a steel frame with glass sides so >you can see the mechanisms inside. I don't know how much it's worth, but >I picked it up for $50. This thing is heavy (about 50-60lbs). I love >it! I'm going to make it the centerpiece of my in-home museum (someday). > >Sam Is this the one that has a row of digits for output at the bootom of the front glass panel and a printing mechanism in back. If so, I've got one of those too. It had been the adding machine my grandfather used when he founded the family business (a cotton gin). Some years ago, I found it lying out in a pile of scrap metal. Even then (I was probably in high school or college then) I guess I had a collector's instinct. Ok, that really means that I'm a packrat and cheapskate. Unfortunately on mine the carriage mechanism for the printing is rusted solid. But I do have plans to someday restore it. It'll be one of may favorite pieces in my museum (again someday). Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Wed Jun 11 10:42:27 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: (fwd) CP/M Hardware For Sale (fwd) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:17:28 PDT." Message-ID: <199706111542.KAA07424@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> In message , dastar@crl.c om writes: > >One more...hope this doesn't get annoying. > >Sam The only annoying thing is that they're all WAY too far for me to drive and pick them up. Proabaly just as well, I am alotted only so many grave looks by my wife when I bring a new toy home. Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 10:33:56 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 79 In-Reply-To: <339E41FA.6B63@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > >I picked up a Commodore 64 a while ago that had this special board > >inside. It was inserted between the keyboard and the motherboard. IE. > >it had a connector that plugged into the keyboard rolex connector on the > >motherboard and then the keyboard ribbon cable plugged into it. Then it > >had a 9-pin male D-type connector than came out the back of the C64. My > >guess is that it was for a numeric keypad or something. I forgot what > >was stamped on the circuit board. Any ideas? > > Sounds like a keypad connector to me, I think it may be a Cardco > keypad (there I think was an option to plug it into the joystick port > and interface it via software. That rung a bell. Sure enough it is a Cardco board. The mysterty is solved. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 10:41:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: new stuff In-Reply-To: <199706111530.KAA07382@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > >Cool but definitely not > >as cool as the Burroughs adding machine! I have no idea what year this > >thing is from, but it's case is made of a steel frame with glass sides so > >you can see the mechanisms inside. I don't know how much it's worth, but > > Is this the one that has a row of digits for output at the bootom of the > front glass panel and a printing mechanism in back. If so, I've got one Yes, it does. It has a typewriter-like carriage on the back with a paper tape roll. It also has a display on the front that can go up to 999,999.99. > of those too. It had been the adding machine my grandfather used when > he founded the family business (a cotton gin). Some years ago, I found > it lying out in a pile of scrap metal. Even then (I was probably in > high school or college then) I guess I had a collector's instinct. Ok, > that really means that I'm a packrat and cheapskate. Unfortunately on > mine the carriage mechanism for the printing is rusted solid. But I > do have plans to someday restore it. It'll be one of may favorite > pieces in my museum (again someday). Mine sort-of works. I can only press down a digit in the hundred-thousands column though, and a few other buttons work. I can't shift it from add to subtract mode. Any idea what year these things are from? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 11 11:09:09 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: Reminder: electronics/junk/computer sale June 14 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970611091305.29ff425a@ricochet.net> At 01:31 PM 6/10/97 -0700, you wrote: > >This is a reminder for those in the San Francisco Bay area that >on June 14 in Mountain View, there will be an junk/electronics sale. Thanks for the reminder! I've missed the last one (or two?) and would have missed this one otherwise. >There will likely be a small get together (two people so far). Anyone who >is interested in the get together let me know. There is a pretty good As of right now, the only thing on my calendar for Saturday is Flag day (and I don't own a flag.) If I can keep that open, and convince my girlfriend and/or my dad they'd enjoy it, I'll be there. (hmmm... Add to Friday's to do list: Rob Bank) Let me know details... Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 11 11:09:12 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970611091309.29ff9f36@ricochet.net> At 01:59 PM 6/10/97 -0700, you wrote: >> << EVERYONE knows that MY COMMODORE 64 is WAY better than YOUR APPLE! >> > >It's hard to have holy wars like the old days when you now own all the >machines you used to make fun of. Actually, it's easier! You can argue with yourself! (Hint: don't do this on the bus; people look at you funny.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 11 11:09:16 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: TDP-100 (was: cocos and stuff) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970611091312.29ffdc04@ricochet.net> At 04:25 PM 6/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 >was a Coco with added serial hardware included so that Radio >Shack could sell it as a color video terminal. Does anyone >else remember this, or am I completely out of my mind? They did sell a "VideoTex" terminal that sure looked like a coco. Sold it for use with CompuServe, (among others,) as I recall. Perhaps this is what you're thinking of? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 11 11:19:50 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > My GOD! Has anyone seen this??? SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING! > > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > here's the major info about the mini's now sitting under the Tucson > sun, soon to be landfill...... > I doubt this stuff will be around for more than a day or two..... ... Seen it yes, agonized over it, YES! This seems to be yet another example of what seems to be the start of a disturbing trend. (NOTE: the poster of the original message is *not* the person who has set this gear on the road to destruction - don't give him grief on this!) A message, sent out at the *last minute* by someone who has gear but is unwilling to put any effort into its salvation even if money if offered to do so. I've probably responded to 5 or 6 of these in the past two weeks, even to the point with some of offering to pay packaging and shipping for the boards out of the units if they did not find a taker for the whole unit rather than see it all go to waste. To date, all of these requests have been refused. The most common statement: (paraphrased) "if it does not go complete, I will not part it out". (no, it will just go to the dump!) Just don't know what to do with these types... Unfortunately, I don't have the resources to jump on a plane or send a shipping company out each time one of these pop up. Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want it. Or am I just dreaming out loud? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 11:24:29 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, James Willing wrote: > Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop > a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are > when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. > Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to > pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want > it. > > Or am I just dreaming out loud? Not at all. This is a terrific idea! I nominate Bill Whitson to formulate this list :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jun 11 11:30:47 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: Tandy 600 In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051FF342@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970611123047.00953240@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Kai Kaltenbach said: >Actually the Tandy 600 was a 1989 concoction. It looks like an early >Toshiba laptop, with flip-up narrow LCD display. It has Multiplan, a >subset of MS Word, a built-in modem, 360K 3.5" drive, 80x16 display, and >sold for $999. I passed up one of these at a swap meet a few weeks ago. > >Kai Nee-ner-nee-ner-neeeee-ner!!! I finally know something that Kai doesn't!!! ;^> Sorry, but *my* T600 was built in September of 1985! AAMAF, I have a 1989 sale flyer yet that shows the T600 in "where-is-as-is" status, for the same $$$ or cheaper than the T200. (one of which I also have!) Processor was an 80c88 and standard memory was 32K (which was close to useless, from what I hear. Mine came with 128K, so I wouldn't know.) which was expanded with up to 2 banks of 96K. Yes, the floppy was 360K, as it was single-sided with double-density. Power: 4 internal D-sized nicads giving 11 hours use with no floppy activity. Files are stored in RAM (like the 100/200/102/NEC 8201A/Olivetti M10/etc.) and can be copied to floppy using the copy command. More questions? You can ask me or the list, with the details below. There is an FTP site for the Tandy 600 at: ftp://ftp.northernway.net/Tandy600/ and there is a listserve dedicated to the Tandy 600. To find out more about the listserve, send a message to: m600-request@list.northernway.net with the word "info" or "help" in the subject. To subscribe, send a message to: m600-request@list.northernway.net with the word "sub" or "subscribe" in the subject. To post a message to the listserve, send a message to: m600@list.northernway.net and it will automatically go to several people (always looking for more, folks!) including a man named Larry Kollar, who wrote and maintains a Tandy 600 FAQ. URL for the FAQ: http://www.nyx.net/~lekollar/t600/t600faq.html Hope this helps! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Wed Jun 11 11:32:30 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: Old, old game machine, etc. In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205215C62@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: I am curious as to if anyone remembers an old game console type of thing that had two games built into ROM. If I remember correctly it was a ping pong type game and one or two others you could turn on with a flip of a switch. It had two controllers.... both paddle style. Any information on this would be appreciated. Second, does anyone have a Colour Genie computer for sale or trade? I would prefer here in the U.S. to cut down on shipping charges if possible. Also looking for cables, software, etc. Third, does anyone know how much a Tanyo Dragon 64, in the original foam, box, with all cables, and in imacualte unused condition is worth? I have one,a dn am looking for disk drives and controllers, as well as software for it. And finally, let me know if you need any TRS-80 or CoCo items, or have ANYTHING for sale. As I like to say, "always buying, selling, and trading!" Thanks a ton, CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 11 17:34:41 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: new stuff In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 11, 97 8:41 am Message-ID: <199706111634.14813@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Mine sort-of works. I can only press down a digit in the > hundred-thousands column though, and a few other buttons work. I can't > shift it from add to subtract mode. Any idea what year these things are > from? This is going towards being off-topic, so feel free to (gently) flame me, but I also have obtained a few very nice mechanical calculating machine over the years. A friend sold me (for \pounds 10 - no way its true value, but that's all he'd payed for it as scrap metal) a very nice hand-cranked Facit machine about 2 months back. It was in _perfect_ condition (the mechanism was gleaming), and after a minor adjustment, works fine. It still use it - it sits on my bedside table along with an HP67 for late-night calculations... I've got a few motorised machines, none of which work yet, but which may well be repairable when I get some time. Among them is a Monroematic which was mistreated by its previous owner (when I resuced it, it was partly dismantled, but I think I have all the important bits). I was also given a Dheil (?spell) which is complete, but needs dismantling, cleaning, and oiling. One day I'll give it a go. My father remembers ordering a very similar machine (costing about 300 pounds) for scientific work in the 1950's An interesting related machine (probably UK only) worked in the old UK money system ((4 farthings = 1 penny), 12 pence = 1 shilling, 20 shillings = 1 pound). I rescued a couple of these, one missing (alas) the platten roller and paper feed mechanism, the other complete, but with a few problems. Again, they'll get restored. Probably the most interesting mechanical 'calculator' I have isn't a calculator at all, but a printer. A place where I was working was throwing out some data logging equipment, and I was offered any bits of it that I wanted. I rescued : The friden paper tape punch and reader (the mechanisms are _identical_ to those used on my flexowriter, but are mounted on 19" panels, and have their own drive motor). The Sequence controller which was patchboard programmable, with DM160 valves (tubes) to display the current state A large pile of schematics, etc. And the printer. This was made by the Victor Comptometer Corporation, and is one of their adding machines (possibly with some linkages removed) and a bank of solenoids mounted over the keys. Very strange, and I guess, not common. > > > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 11:36:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: Old, old game machine, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > I am curious as to if anyone remembers an old game console type of thing > that had two games built into ROM. If I remember correctly it was a ping > pong type game and one or two others you could turn on with a flip of a > switch. It had two controllers.... both paddle style. Any information on > this would be appreciated. There were plenty of these made, by plenty of manufacturers. I have three different ones: A Bently-Compuvision, a generic "Pong" console and an Odyssey 300. Each has pretty much the same, exact, mind-numbing four games. They can be found from time to time at thrifts and flea markets. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 11 11:51:17 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: CCS Z80/Serial/Ram card References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20521E701@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <339E033C.5FC9@rain.org> <339E47C9.361A@rain.org> Message-ID: <339ED785.18DF@rain.org> In moving things around, I found a CCS Z80/Serial/Ram Card with about 192K of ram. It is on an 8 bit PC style card and has a DB25 male serial connector at one end. Anyone know what this thing is? The copyright date on the board is 1983. Thanks. From idavis at comland.com Wed Jun 11 11:57:41 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970611165741.0093b9f8@mail.comland.com > At 09:24 AM 6/11/97 -0700, Sam wrote: >On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, James Willing wrote: > >> Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop >> a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are >> when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. >> Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to >> pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want >> it. >> >> Or am I just dreaming out loud? > >Not at all. This is a terrific idea! I nominate Bill Whitson to >formulate this list :) > > >Sam >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > I agree completely. I would be willing to go pick up stuff headed for the dump and hold it till someone could make space for it. My house only has room for a small select few computers, but I could make room in storage until shipping could be arranged. We ought to make this like a Mr. (or Ms.) Rescue for classics. When the list is started, put me down for the Austin, TX area. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 11 12:01:26 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: (fwd) CP/M Hardware For Sale (fwd) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970611100835.4217df7c@mail.crl.com> At 11:17 PM 6/10/97 -0700, you wrote: >One more...hope this doesn't get annoying. Nope, just frustrating -- none of them are near me! 8^( --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 11 12:01:45 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: 4004 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970611100852.45570908@mail.crl.com> At 03:05 AM 6/11/97 +0000, you wrote: >Hi, The grey/beige HP terminal with heavy keyboard that have >black and white "squashed" monitor shaped does have this 8008 chip >in one of its "card". Accessible by tripping two catches between the If you're speaking of the venerable HP2645 terminal, I know it had a Z80 in it. (And some people did rig it up as a crude CP/M machine.) Dunno about the 8008 though... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 11 13:07:32 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: CCS Z80/Serial/Ram card In-Reply-To: <339ED785.18DF@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 11, 97 09:51:17 am Message-ID: <9706111707.AA04250@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 498 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970611/2f03e1f3/attachment-0001.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 11 12:11:48 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff Message-ID: <199706111711.AA13671@world.std.com> > > RS published a technical manual for the color computer; I have a copy of > > somewhere. HOWEVER I found there's an app note from Motorola with schema > > that almost exactly match those in the RS technical manual. I don't reca > > whether it was a 6809 app note or a 6847 app note though. If you can fin > > set of old Motorola data books you may be able to find it. > > It's probably a 6883 (SAM) app note, isn't it? I don't have the app note but I do have the data book and it has a partial of what the coco1 might have been. Allison From groberts at mitre.org Wed Jun 11 12:23:51 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: VideoText In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970611091312.29ffdc04@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970611132351.00825e80@mail90> >>Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 >>was a Coco ... that Radio Shack could sell it as a color >>video terminal. >> >They did sell a "VideoTex" terminal that sure looked like a coco. Sold it >for use with CompuServe, (among others,) as I recall. there are surely some in this crowd who remember the excitement over VideoText back in the early 80's. this was a way to mix text and low quality graphics for display on a TV quality crt, combined with two-way telephone linkage. there was even a standard for it (at least in the US) called NAPLPS. this was going to be *the* way we would do everything from getting the weather report to shoppping for groceries. it never became commercially viable in the US. The excitement that drove this was a vision in people's minds of what we now know (of course) as the world wide web. it was an idea ahead of its time. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 11 12:27:43 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: Scrapping and saving classic stuff References: Message-ID: <339EE00F.20DC@rain.org> James Willing wrote: > > > Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop > a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are > when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. > Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to > pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want > it. > > Or am I just dreaming out loud? > Hi Jim, I was reading these posts also and was also trying to think of a way to handle these situations. I like your idea of an Index giving the location of collectors. I, for one, really appreciated Sam posting the stuff about available computers and can cover parts of central California without too much effort (parts of Los Angeles to San Luis Obispo or so.) I have also found places, primarily schools, that have a bunch of interesting stuff that sometimes sits for years safely stored away, and probably available for either taking it away (they need space) or for scrap prices. Another thought on a related subject is what to do with stuff all of us might have but are only being held to save it from the dump. As one example, I scrapped out a CADO CAT II computer a couple of months ago (I still have one!) that I would have preferred another collector had taken. Granted, I kept the boards and HD for spares but still. Another example is a Hard Disk/Floppy peripheral to an Exxon Office Systems model 500. The ONLY reason I have it is because I don't want it going to the dump. BTW, this is another instance where "The Big List of Classic Computers" has been a tremendous help in helping to identify computers/equipment. It would also be helpful to know the emphasis on everyones collections. For instance, mine is primarily early microcomputers and their associated documentation. Is anyone collecting the history of LAN's including early cards and software? Several months ago, I scrapped out a number of early IBM LAN cards because the space REALLY is getting to be a problem and I need to do something. I gave an early Novell Lan setup with the Gateway cards to a friend of mine to play around with. Some people might thing it is great to have the kind of problem I have with all the stuff here, but then again, I think it is better to have the problem of space needing computers :). BTW, yours was one of the first Web pages I ran across when I started to check out the Web for this type of activity ... very nice! From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 11 12:36:51 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: Printers References: <3.0.1.32.19970611123047.00953240@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <339EE233.2D57@rain.org> Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? I have several including the SWTP 40 column printer, the usual assortment of Tandy and CBM printers, a couple of DecWriters (LA36), an early Centronics, a number of daisy wheel printers, and my newest addition, an ASR 33. But I also run into quite a few (usually free) that I don't have the room or inclination to store. I would guess that most of the older printers will head for the dump with few people caring, but then again ... From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Wed Jun 11 12:49:16 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: new stuff In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:41:20 PDT." Message-ID: <199706111749.MAA07527@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> In message , dastar@crl .com writes: >On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > >> >Cool but definitely not >> >as cool as the Burroughs adding machine! I have no idea what year this >> >thing is from, but it's case is made of a steel frame with glass sides so >> >you can see the mechanisms inside. I don't know how much it's worth, but >> >> Is this the one that has a row of digits for output at the bootom of the >> front glass panel and a printing mechanism in back. If so, I've got one > >Yes, it does. It has a typewriter-like carriage on the back with a paper >tape roll. It also has a display on the front that can go up to 999,999.99. Yep, that sure sounds like it. >> of those too. It had been the adding machine my grandfather used when >> he founded the family business (a cotton gin). Some years ago, I found >> it lying out in a pile of scrap metal. Even then (I was probably in >> high school or college then) I guess I had a collector's instinct. Ok, >> that really means that I'm a packrat and cheapskate. Unfortunately on >> mine the carriage mechanism for the printing is rusted solid. But I >> do have plans to someday restore it. It'll be one of may favorite >> pieces in my museum (again someday). > >Mine sort-of works. I can only press down a digit in the >hundred-thousands column though, and a few other buttons work. I can't >shift it from add to subtract mode. Any idea what year these things are >from? It's been a while since I tried it, but I seem to remember that mine works except for the carriage. But it's at my parent's house right now so I can't refresh my memory regarding operation. As to date, I'm not really sure. Granddad started the gin in 1949 and I'm pretty sure he told me that he used it when he started it. I've seen a sketch of the original Burroughs machine introduced in 1887 and it looks significantly more primitive. For no particularly good reason, the 1920s has always stuck in my head for it. That tends to be very vaguely supported by a picture in Stan Augarten's book. It's an advertising photo showing a secretary carrying a portable Burroughs machine in about 1922 and some of the features (shape of buttons, shape of cutouts for the digits, etc) seem to be at least similar. I'd believe just about anything in the '20-'40s. Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 11 18:53:50 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <339EE233.2D57@rain.org>; from "Marvin" at Jun 11, 97 10:36 am Message-ID: <199706111753.19946@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? > I have several including the SWTP 40 column printer, the usual > assortment of Tandy and CBM printers, a couple of DecWriters (LA36), an > early Centronics, a number of daisy wheel printers, and my newest > addition, an ASR 33. But I also run into quite a few (usually free) I collect _some_ printers - the ones I consider interesting, or fine examples of engineering. Amongst the ones I have are a couple oF ASR33's (great fun to strip down and rebuild, particularly if you don't have the service manual...), a few other Teleprinters (Creed 7E, Creed 444, Friden Flexowriter), a couple of Sanders (12/7 and 700) - these are very well built 7 pin dot matrix printers that use multiple passes of the printhead (up to 8 in some fonts) to get letter quality output, a Versatec V80 (actually an ICL 6203, which has a GPIB interface), which uses an array of electrodes to build up a charge image on specially coated paper, and then pumps liquid toner over it, etc -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 11 13:23:17 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) References: <1.5.4.32.19970611165741.0093b9f8@mail.comland.com > Message-ID: <339EED15.3A0B@ndirect.co.uk> Isaac Davis wrote: > > At 09:24 AM 6/11/97 -0700, Sam wrote: > >On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, James Willing wrote: > > > >> Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop > >> a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are > >> when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. > >> Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to > >> pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want > >> it. > >> > >> Or am I just dreaming out loud? > > > >Not at all. This is a terrific idea! I nominate Bill Whitson to > >formulate this list :) > > > > > >Sam > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > > I agree completely. I would be willing to go pick up stuff headed for the > dump and hold it till someone could make space for it. My house only has > room for a small select few computers, but I could make room in storage > until shipping could be arranged. We ought to make this like a Mr. (or Ms.) > Rescue for classics. When the list is started, put me down for the Austin, > TX area. > Isaac Davis > idavis@comland.com > indavis@juno.com OK, put me down for southern England (UK) enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Jun 11 13:18:51 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <199706111816.NAA09492@challenge.sunflower.com> I personally would like a printer for every machine in my system if one was made for it and it works. Sinclair1500, Atari, 400,800xl, 1200xl, C64, TandyColor/2 Tandy Model4, and almost every apple made. ---------- > From: Marvin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Printers > Date: Wednesday, June 11, 1997 12:36 PM > > Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? > I have several including the SWTP 40 column printer, the usual > assortment of Tandy and CBM printers, a couple of DecWriters (LA36), an > early Centronics, a number of daisy wheel printers, and my newest > addition, an ASR 33. But I also run into quite a few (usually free) > that I don't have the room or inclination to store. I would guess that > most of the older printers will head for the dump with few people > caring, but then again ... From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Jun 11 13:24:55 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) Message-ID: <199706111822.NAA10203@challenge.sunflower.com> I would be happy to help in this collection, I am in Lawrence KS, USA ---------- > From: e.tedeschi > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) > Date: Wednesday, June 11, 1997 1:23 PM > > Isaac Davis wrote: > > > > At 09:24 AM 6/11/97 -0700, Sam wrote: > > >On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, James Willing wrote: > > > > > >> Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop > > >> a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are > > >> when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. > > >> Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to > > >> pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want > > >> it. > > >> > > >> Or am I just dreaming out loud? > > > > > >Not at all. This is a terrific idea! I nominate Bill Whitson to > > >formulate this list :) > > > > > > > > >Sam > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > > > > I agree completely. I would be willing to go pick up stuff headed for the > > dump and hold it till someone could make space for it. My house only has > > room for a small select few computers, but I could make room in storage > > until shipping could be arranged. We ought to make this like a Mr. (or Ms.) > > Rescue for classics. When the list is started, put me down for the Austin, > > TX area. > > Isaac Davis > > idavis@comland.com > > indavis@juno.com > > OK, put me down for southern England (UK) > > enrico > -- > ================================================================ > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > website > ================================================================ > visit Brighton: From bwit at pobox.com Wed Jun 11 12:51:53 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) Message-ID: <01BC766E.C4996A80@ppp-151-164-41-146.rcsntx.swbell.net> >Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to >develop a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where >others are when things like this pop up so that we could have some local >options. Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be >able to pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone >who did want it. This seems like an excellent suggestion. Put me down for Dallas/Fort Worth, TX. USA. Regards, Bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1605 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970611/17336c43/attachment-0001.bin From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 11 13:55:35 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:19 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970611115933.3b5779d2@ricochet.net> >Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop >a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are >when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. >Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to >pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want An excellent idea! Sign me up! Hmm... what info? Name, location, collecting interests, etc? Uncle Roger San Francisco All computers, especially portables. or --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 11 13:57:00 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <339EE233.2D57@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? > I have several including the SWTP 40 column printer, the usual > assortment of Tandy and CBM printers, a couple of DecWriters (LA36), an > early Centronics, a number of daisy wheel printers, and my newest > addition, an ASR 33. But I also run into quite a few (usually free) > that I don't have the room or inclination to store. I would guess that > most of the older printers will head for the dump with few people > caring, but then again ... > EEK! Yes! I'd love to find one of the SWTPC 40 column printers! In my view (IMHV?) the peripherals are an integral part of the history! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From pcoad at crl.com Wed Jun 11 13:53:25 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: (fwd) CP/M Hardware For Sale (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199706111542.KAA07424@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > In message , dastar@crl.c > om writes: > > > >One more...hope this doesn't get annoying. > > > >Sam > > The only annoying thing is that they're all WAY too far for me to drive > and pick them up. Proabaly just as well, I am alotted only so many > grave looks by my wife when I bring a new toy home. > Atleast you guys have a chance. Look at my position, I live in the same general area as Sam. Anything that is far enough away from him to send notice to the list is also too far for me as well. There is a lot of classic stuff in our area, but there are a lot of collectors. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 11 14:13:23 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Applied Processor Labs References: <339EE00F.20DC@rain.org> Message-ID: <339EF8D0.51F8@rain.org> I found another computer not on the list and one I don't have much info on. This one is an Applied Processor Labs APL/80 Microcomputer System, is an S-100 system, and uses an 8080 CPU. It has 64K of memory on a Model DM6400 Measurement Systems and Controls, Inc. board. It is one of the boxes with no internal floppy drives, and uses a Vista Computer Company floppy controller card connected to two Vista external floppy drives. It has an IMSAI SIO rev 3 board along with the APL 2 board CPU set and APL PIO card. There is one wirewrap interface card of some sort in the machine. I picked it up a couple of years ago at the TRW swap meet in Los Angeles. From what I can remember, the guy said it was built by some people associated or formerly associated with Intel. The wirewrap interface card was used (as I recall) for some sort of sign lighting control. I thought I had some documentation on it but I don't see it (yet.) Anyone know anything else about this machine? Thanks. From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 11 14:19:54 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Printers References: <199706111753.19946@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <339EFA5A.3A07@rain.org> A.R. Duell wrote: > I collect _some_ printers - the ones I consider interesting, or fine > examples of engineering. Amongst the ones I have are a couple oF ASR33's > (great fun to strip down and rebuild, particularly if you don't have the > service manual...), a few other Teleprinters (Creed 7E, Creed 444, Friden > Flexowriter), a couple of Sanders (12/7 and 700) - these are very well > built 7 pin dot matrix printers that use multiple passes of the printhead > (up to 8 in some fonts) to get letter quality output, a Versatec V80 > (actually an ICL 6203, which has a GPIB interface), which uses an array of > electrodes to build up a charge image on specially coated paper, and then > pumps liquid toner over it, etc Nice collection! For what it is worth, I have the 3 volume set of Teletype manuals on the ASR 33, and one other (can't remember the model.) If anyone needs the manual set, I think I know where another one is. From idavis at comland.com Wed Jun 11 14:38:40 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Collectors Index Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970611193840.00914184@mail.comland.com > I can see that we are going to inundate this list with our home locations. I will go ahead and volunteer to keep the list, and put it up on my web site. If you want to be added to this list, email me idavis@comland.com with your name, city/area, and a way to contact you - email or phone. After the list is compiled, I will put it on the web, and will be able to email it to anyone involved. Maybe I can try and get some outside exposure with web search engines to help people outside of this list to be able to contact us before they take their "junk" to the landfill. Feel free to give me any contact information you want. I will only include what you tell me to. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From jlodoen at mega.megamed.com Wed Jun 11 07:38:01 1997 From: jlodoen at mega.megamed.com (Jeff Lodoen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: VideoText In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970611132351.00825e80@mail90> References: <1.5.4.16.19970611091312.29ffdc04@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199706111938.MAA06173@mega.megamed.com> > >>Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 > >>was a Coco ... that Radio Shack could sell it as a color > >>video terminal. > >> > >They did sell a "VideoTex" terminal that sure looked like a coco. Sold it > >for use with CompuServe, (among others,) as I recall. > > there are surely some in this crowd who remember the excitement over > VideoText back in the early 80's. A little confusion. CompuServe had VidTex, which was a simple protocol to automatically transmit and display graphics. (mono, RLE encoded) VideoText was something else... From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jun 11 15:12:09 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: VideoText In-Reply-To: <199706111938.MAA06173@mega.megamed.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19970611132351.00825e80@mail90> <1.5.4.16.19970611091312.29ffdc04@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970611161209.009f8ac0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Jeff Lodoen said: >> >>Somewhere in the back of my head I had the idea that a TDP-100 >> >>was a Coco ... that Radio Shack could sell it as a color >> >>video terminal. >> >> >> >They did sell a "VideoTex" terminal that sure looked like a coco. Sold it >> >for use with CompuServe, (among others,) as I recall. >> >> there are surely some in this crowd who remember the excitement over >> VideoText back in the early 80's. > >A little confusion. CompuServe had VidTex, which was a simple >protocol to automatically transmit and display graphics. (mono, >RLE encoded) > >VideoText was something else... Ah, yes, but "VideoTex" was something else, as well. There was a VideoTex machine based on the CoCo1 from Radio Shack, and the name of the first telecommunications package for the Color Computer was also called VideoTex (still have my copy...) One of the original (intended) uses for the standalone VideoTex was as an affordable machine for farmers to get up-to-the-minute weather and crop reports, IIRC. I'm also not sure, but CompuServe might have had a hand in the project, prolly as the online connection to try to make this thing a reality, and that might explain the similar names between the machine and the protocol. Keep in mind that CompuSlurp back in those days was a text-only online service, and that the weather reports (again, IIRC) were supposed to include graphical data... Hope this jars a few neurons for more important folk than I, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 11 15:23:43 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: FS: Vector 3032 System Disk References: <199706111753.19946@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> <339EFA5A.3A07@rain.org> Message-ID: <339F094F.355D@rain.org> Well, not really for sale but if anyone needs one of these, let me know and I'll send it out for the cost of postage (probably a dollar or two.) I haven't fired up one of the Vector machines so I don't know what the actual contents are. However this is the description on the label: Vector Part No. 6000-008 Serial No. 31-30226 (at least on the one I am looking at now.) CP/M System for 3032 CP/M Version 2.22 Release 3 Double-sided Copyright (C) 1980 Digital Research Copyright (C) 1980 Microsoft Copyright (C) 1980 Vector Graphic Inc. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 11 15:23:55 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Power cable for Cromemco Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2052457ED@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Found one! Vetco here in Bellevue had a box of 'em... at the usurious price of $9.50, but what can ya do? At least I picked up some interesting 8-bit ISA cards for $1-$4 apiece, namely: - Silicon Valley ADP50 (IDE drives in PCs!) - Kaypro NEC V20 accelerator/Z80 emulator card - Kraft dual joystick adapter - Ad Lib sound card Kai > ---------- > From: James Willing[SMTP:jimw@agora.rdrop.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 4:48 PM > To: Kai Kaltenbach > Cc: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Power cable for Cromemco > > On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > I'm looking for a power cable for my Cromemco System 3. It's kind > of a > > bizarre cable. The recessed male panel jack is a flattened oval, 1" > by > > 1/2", with 3 conductors. The center ground pin is very slightly > offset > > from the other two pins. > > > > Any thoughts where I can get one of these? > > Actually, not too odd at all. Don't know about currently (as I've not > looked for a while) but these used to be quite common on office > equipment. > > And... (if you did not see this coming) I think I have a spare or two > around... (gotta turn over *all* of those rocks!) > > Bad ASCII art warning! > > /-------------\ > | O O | > | O | > \-------------/ > > Looks something (nothing?) like this? eh? > > If you don't turn one up local, let me know and I'll try to find one > to > send along with the other stuff... > > -jim > --- > jimw@agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 11 15:28:38 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Contact List Message-ID: <339F0A76.2CA6@rain.org> Hi Issac, thanks for volunteering to maintain the list! I think this is a wonderful idea and one that will help us all. Marvin Johnston marvin@rain.org (805) 6897-8881 Santa Barbara, CA Primary Interest: Early Microcomputers from the 70's and associated documentation. From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 11 15:54:06 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: VideoText In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970611161209.009f8ac0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >A little confusion. CompuServe had VidTex, which was a simple > >protocol to automatically transmit and display graphics. (mono, > >RLE encoded) > > > >VideoText was something else... > > Ah, yes, but "VideoTex" was something else, as well. There was a VideoTex > machine based on the CoCo1 from Radio Shack, and the name of the first > telecommunications package for the Color Computer was also called VideoTex > (still have my copy...) "VideoTex" was the name of all of the products we sold to connect to CompuSlave. The terminal, the CoCo ROMPak, the tape and disk programs for Mod 1/2/3/4 and for Apple ][. It was essentially a no-brainer VT-52 emulator with the ability to display the in-line low resolution graphics that CompuSlave sent. On the CoCo (as on the VideoTex terminal), it wasn't too bad. The graphics was aesthetically very deficient on the mono systems. The terms "VideoTex" and VidTex" were interchangeable -- the filename of the software was "VIDTEX". > One of the original (intended) uses for the standalone VideoTex was as an > affordable machine for farmers to get up-to-the-minute weather and crop > reports, IIRC. I'm also not sure, but CompuServe might have had a hand in > the project, prolly as the online connection to try to make this thing a > reality, and that might explain the similar names between the machine and > the protocol. Keep in mind that CompuSlurp back in those days was a > text-only online service, and that the weather reports (again, IIRC) were > supposed to include graphical data... "AgriStar" was a totally different setup, that we didn't get much call for at my RSCC in downtown Los Angeles. I never saw it in action, but it was much more than weather reports. CompuSlave was not involved, to the best of my recollection. But by the time AgriStar became a product, almost all of my attention and learning curve were dedicated to the Model 16 series and Xenix. (As much of it continues to this date, as I have a Tandy 6000 even yet, as well as AT&T 7300s running their Unix variant by Convergent Technologies, SCO Xenix Unix and OpenServer, AT&T SysV/386, Solaris and several packagings of Linux -- at work all I have is AIX and Solaris). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 11 16:07:11 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: VideoText Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2052511A2@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> A friend of mine had a TV set in 1986 that had VideoTex built-in. It was actually pretty cool as I recall. Kai From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 9 23:37:30 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Old, old game machine, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11-Jun-97, Sam Ismail wrote: >There were plenty of these made, by plenty of manufacturers. I have >three different ones: A Bently-Compuvision, a generic "Pong" console and >an Odyssey 300. Each has pretty much the same, exact, mind-numbing four >games. They can be found from time to time at thrifts and flea markets. Yes, I saw one called a Rally IV (i believe) today at the thrift. Almost picked it up for the $4 they wanted. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Coleco ADAM, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, Model 4, and Model 4P, plus Odyssey2, Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jun 11 13:27:35 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Old, old game machine, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199706112227.SAA28186@mail.cgocable.net> > > Yes, I saw one called a Rally IV (i believe) today at the thrift. Almost > picked it up for the $4 they wanted. > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > About the "thrift". Do you mean by this: Army Salvation is thrift store is one of them? Flea market that I tried in canada is poor in this technological respect. :( what else? Thanks! Jason D. From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 17:22:50 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: new stuff In-Reply-To: <199706111749.MAA07527@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > >Mine sort-of works. I can only press down a digit in the > >hundred-thousands column though, and a few other buttons work. I can't > >shift it from add to subtract mode. Any idea what year these things are > >from? > > It's been a while since I tried it, but I seem to remember that mine > works except for the carriage. But it's at my parent's house right > now so I can't refresh my memory regarding operation. Acutally, I found what the problem was this morning. There was an (unidentified) lever stuck in place. I had to unjam it, and then everything started working. What a mind-blowing contraption. > It's an advertising photo showing a secretary carrying a portable > Burroughs machine in about 1922 and some of the features (shape of > buttons, shape of cutouts for the digits, etc) seem to be at least > similar. I'd believe just about anything in the '20-'40s. I figured that same range myself. But I'm more inclined to think the 20s. The older the better. I'm hoping this will be a nice antique which I can put on display in my livingroom. It definitely adds charm to any setting. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 17:16:38 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Scrapping and saving classic stuff In-Reply-To: <339EE00F.20DC@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Hi Jim, I was reading these posts also and was also trying to think of a > way to handle these situations. I like your idea of an Index giving the > location of collectors. I, for one, really appreciated Sam posting the > stuff about available computers and can cover parts of central > California without too much effort (parts of Los Angeles to San Luis > Obispo or so.) I have also found places, primarily schools, that have a > bunch of interesting stuff that sometimes sits for years safely stored > away, and probably available for either taking it away (they need space) > or for scrap prices. I can cover most of the Bay Area (California). Of course there are at least 3 other collectors on this discussion who could as well. > Another thought on a related subject is what to do with stuff all of us > might have but are only being held to save it from the dump. As one A couple of people regularly post their trade lists (Kai for one). I am currently going through all my stuff to come up with a trade list of my own, mainly based on duplicates of systems I already own (like 6 VIC-20s, a number of TI-99/4a's...mostly common stuff). I don't want this to turn into a big trade-a-thon though. Perhaps we can start another listserve that has messages related only to buy/sell/trade? That way we won't be inundated with people spewing their requests and trade lists into the main discussion area. This would be so much easier if it were a newsgroup, but then again the quality would suffer (what with all the lame advertisement spams). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 17:20:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <339EE233.2D57@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? > I have several including the SWTP 40 column printer, the usual > assortment of Tandy and CBM printers, a couple of DecWriters (LA36), an > early Centronics, a number of daisy wheel printers, and my newest > addition, an ASR 33. But I also run into quite a few (usually free) > that I don't have the room or inclination to store. I would guess that > most of the older printers will head for the dump with few people > caring, but then again ... I've often thought of this, but it comes down to, would I rather use the space for many different computers or some computers and some printers? A printer is a printer, but since nobody really looks upon these as collectible, they are the most likely to be overlooked or sent to the scrap heap. A big problem is that they often weigh a lot and are a burden to store. Nonetheless, I have recently started to collect the old printers. I have a Commodore one, a TRS-80 one, a Tandy one, and may a couple others. But I take them somewhat reluctantly, usually as a part of a whole lot. But I figure, nobody else is going to save them, so I might as well try to save a couple. Printers are definitely going to be an interesting relic 50 years from now when hardly any from this era remain, again because of the reasons I've cited above. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed Jun 11 21:26:37 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Old, old game machine, etc. References: <199706112227.SAA28186@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <339F5E5D.66D1@unix.aardvarkol.com> jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > Do you mean by this: Army Salvation is thrift store is one of > them? Flea market that I tried in canada is poor in this > technological respect. :( what else? Jason, Yes, Salvation Army and other 2nd had stores. There are 3 such stores within a few miles of my house, so I tend to pop into them almost anytime I'm out and about. Sometimes they are a tad overpriced, but I've also gotten some really good deals at the smaller of the three. It is where I picked up the Atari 8bit stuff the other night. I just had to have the Bit-3 board when I found it! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed Jun 11 22:18:40 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Atari PSU's References: <199706112227.SAA28186@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <339F6A90.5050@unix.aardvarkol.com> Thanks to all that made suggestions concerning the Atari 8bit PSU's. I had no idea that the #CO14319 PSU was used by most of the stuff for the original 800, including the 1050 drive and the 850 interface. Thanks to the suggestions I've finally been able to verify that one of my 1050's does indeed work, though it's not likely to get used much since I normally use an IndusGT. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From william at ans.net Wed Jun 11 21:21:52 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34, as well as an offer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706120221.AA11256@interlock.ans.net> > > My GOD! Has anyone seen this??? SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING! It really is no fun being so helpless... I am on the East Coast (NYC, for those who want to make an index - a good idea!), and would have no chance of getting the things. I do make quite a few trips between here and Chicago, and could be persuaded to move large things (on a flatbed trailer) westbound for gas money. I feel a bit "unclean" tonight, as today I junked out most of the original Internet (aka NSFnet) backbone routers - big IBM PowerServer 930s. It is a shame I could not save more of them (2 are now in RCS/RIs collection, and 1 is in mine), but the beasts are definitely not carry-on luggage sized. If anyone wants historic RS/6000 _parts_, speak up and I will send it out for postage costs (I dare not sell any! I like my job!). Additionally, there are still 2 or 3 still intact in the New York area that I _may_ be able to liberate to any other interested retrocomputing clubs (with a truck or van). William Donzelli william@ans.net From transit at primenet.com Wed Jun 11 21:46:58 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <339EE233.2D57@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? > I have several including the SWTP 40 column printer, the usual > assortment of Tandy and CBM printers, a couple of DecWriters (LA36), an > early Centronics, a number of daisy wheel printers, and my newest > addition, an ASR 33. But I also run into quite a few (usually free) > that I don't have the room or inclination to store. I would guess that > most of the older printers will head for the dump with few people > caring, but then again ... > I have a wide (132-column) Toshiba dot matrix printer I picked up for a few bucks at a flea market (as part of a package deal). It needs a new printhead. A couple of local computer stores want $100 to replace the printhead, and attempts to contact Toshiba about it only led to a 900-number, voice mail jail. Any ideas on what I should do with it? From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 21:19:46 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Old, old game machine, etc. In-Reply-To: <339F5E5D.66D1@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Yes, Salvation Army and other 2nd had stores. There are 3 such stores > within a few miles of my house, so I tend to pop into them almost > anytime I'm out and about. Sometimes they are a tad overpriced, but > I've also gotten some really good deals at the smaller of the three. It > is where I picked up the Atari 8bit stuff the other night. I just had > to have the Bit-3 board when I found it! I found an interesting board the other day in a thrift shop. Its a stock-quote system. You plug it into your PC and then a monitor, and it has some link to a stock-quoter service and you get stocks quotes over your PC. I haven't looked at it in too much detail but it comes with the manual. I'm sure the service costs an arm and a leg though. And I can't remember if it came with software or not. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 11 23:51:57 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Collectors Index In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970611193840.00914184@mail.comland.com > Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970611215157.00fc98c0@agora.rdrop.com> At 02:38 PM 6/11/97 -0500, you wrote: >I can see that we are going to inundate this list with our home locations. >I will go ahead and volunteer to keep the list, and put it up on my web >site. If you want to be added to this list, email me idavis@comland.com >with your name, city/area, and a way to contact you - email or phone. After >the list is compiled, I will put it on the web, and will be able to email it >to anyone involved. Maybe I can try and get some outside exposure with web >search engines to help people outside of this list to be able to contact us >before they take their "junk" to the landfill. Feel free to give me any >contact information you want. I will only include what you tell me to. >Isaac Davis >idavis@comland.com >indavis@juno.com I'm in: James Willing The Computer Garage P.O. Box 1983 Beaverton, OR. 97075-1983 email: jimw@agora.rdrop.com Area: Oregon, Washington Thanks for taking this on! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 11 23:55:44 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34, as well as an offer In-Reply-To: <199706120221.AA11256@interlock.ans.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970611215544.00fcb344@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:21 PM 6/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >> > My GOD! Has anyone seen this??? SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING! > >It really is no fun being so helpless... Well said... >I feel a bit "unclean" tonight, as today I junked out most of the >original Internet (aka NSFnet) backbone routers - big IBM PowerServer >930s. It is a shame I could not save more of them (2 are now in RCS/RIs >collection, and 1 is in mine), but the beasts are definitely not carry-on >luggage sized. Better some than none! >If anyone wants historic RS/6000 _parts_, speak up and I will send it out >for postage costs (I dare not sell any! I like my job!). Hmmm, some detail perhaps? I may be interested. Thanks! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Thu Jun 12 00:29:19 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Free (maybe): Tandy 10 MB Drive Case Message-ID: <339F892F.3C8B@oboe.calpoly.edu> Hey! I put an old 10 MB hard drive case on AuctionWeb last week. Nobody is bidding on it so if it doesn't sell, it's free. It's just a white case with a fan and power supply. A really nice guy wrote and offered the drive that goes in it for shipping only (see bottom of message). Auction ends tomorrow-hurry! Here's what you do, go to the auction link: http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=dkq99203 Bid $1. If nobody outbids you, it's yours for shipping only. Just remind me if I don't recognize your email address. Shipping should be less than $5. You could do the whole thing for less than $10. Worth it? I dunno. ? By the way, there's an Imagewriter I that's only up to $3+shipping at: http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=qpa201 ? And a cool like new thermal printer for laptops (circa 1984) at: http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=yrk8174 ? And I have a few C-64's and 1541 drives that are dead. Free + shipping if anyone's interested. Oh and a Okimate 10 printer that's laying around too. *** The guy with the drive that goes in it is: > Subject: tandy hd case > Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 21:03:20 PDT > From: "Roger LaPointe" > To: gmast@oboe.aix.calpoly.edu > > > I've got a 10 meg hd (tandon) that came in one of the cases. > > if you can use it, you can have it for the actual ups costs. ($3 or $4 ???) > it just sits on the shelf, and I hated to throw it away (along with all the > Seagate ST-225's) > > thanx Roger > > From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Jun 12 00:24:19 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An interesting sidenote on printers: A friend of mine works at a university and was recently having problems with the sudents/faculty "wasting" paper. (i.e. printing out 1000 page documents on the laser printers.) My solution: Replace the laser printers with my fleet (currently 5) of daisy wheel printers. He didn't go for it... Would've been worth it tho just to see their faces! Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Jun 12 00:32:50 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Filling in the holes... Message-ID: Hi guys, my collection is still on the small side (25 or so) and lately I've just been trying to cover "all the bases." I'm mainly interested in 80's micros (since that's what I grew up with) and have a few holes to fill. OK, enough filler, here's what I need: - I *still* don't have an Atari! - I'd like a MSX machine as well (never even seen one in anything other than magazine articles) - and maybe a Timex just for the hell of it. If anyone has any duplicates that they'd like to sell/trade etc. than PLEASE let me know! I live in the (relatively) Philadelphia area. BTW, someone on this mailing list mentioned that they needed the TI Speech box. If by this you mean the Speech Synthesizer that plugged into the side than I have 2 (and only 1 TI) so.... However, if you mean the Terminal Emulator II cartridge than, sorry, I only have 1 of those! :( Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From idavis at comland.com Thu Jun 12 00:52:41 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue List Message-ID: <199706120614.BAA03264@ds9.comland.com> Ok, I have taken the info I got from today, and put it up on the web. Nothing fancy, and I haven't indexed it yet with any search engines. Take a look at it and let me know what you think, or if you want to change your information. The url is: http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html Any suggestions? Let me know and I will change it before we tell the rest of the world about it. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 02:07:40 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Z-Letter References: <3.0.1.32.19970611215157.00fc98c0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <339FA03C.2631@rain.org> Jim Willing wrote: > > James Willing > The Computer Garage > P.O. Box 1983 > Beaverton, OR. 97075-1983 > I think you are in the neighborhood of where the Z-Letter was published. I had heard that the publisher was going to sell off his collection of computers (400+ the last I heard a few years ago.) Any idea what has happened to the collection as well as perhaps the archives of the Z-letter? From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 02:15:48 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue List References: <199706120614.BAA03264@ds9.comland.com> Message-ID: <339FA224.71EA@rain.org> Isaac Davis wrote: > > Ok, I have taken the info I got from today, and put it up on the web. > Nothing fancy, and I haven't indexed it yet with any search engines. Take a > look at it and let me know what you think, or if you want to change your > information. The url is: > > http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html > Hi Isaac, I just took a look at the page and it looks good! I think this type of page is a first on the Internet and I suspect it will provide a lot of leads quickly once people start to hear about it. As far as my info, could you add that my main area of interest is microcomputers from the 70's with the associated documentation? Thanks! From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 02:28:36 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Printers References: Message-ID: <339FA524.4E33@rain.org> Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > I have a wide (132-column) Toshiba dot matrix printer I picked up for > a few bucks at a flea market (as part of a package deal). It needs a > new printhead. A couple of local computer stores want $100 to replace > the printhead, and attempts to contact Toshiba about it only led to a > 900-number, voice mail jail. > > Any ideas on what I should do with it? I really wish I had a feel for what types of things that will be considered significant 10, 20, and more years down the road. I have given quite a few (working) printers away to people and organizations that can use them. More and more people seem to want the laser or Ink Jet printers and impact type printer applications are getting more and more scarce. What I would do is put it in a corner, keep my eye out for another broken printer with a good print head and wait ... until I find the printer head, someone who wants it, or need the space and junk it! I have an epson and a couple of oki printers in that state right now that will most likely hit the junk pile. Hmmm, how about another want list of components needed to make something work? From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 02:36:19 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Filling in the holes... References: Message-ID: <339FA6F3.3AFA@rain.org> Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > - I *still* don't have an Atari! > That one is most likely easy once you tell us *what* Atari you would like. I still have the original Atari 400 and peripherals that I paid about $1500 or so for when it first came out. Neat machine! I have several 400's and 800's although I need to check them out to make sure they still work (I sometimes get non-working machines and get them mixed in with the working ones.) > - I'd like a MSX machine as well (never even seen one in anything other > than magazine articles) > What is an MSX machine? > - and maybe a Timex just for the hell of it. > The Timex machines are still fairly easy to obtain out here. If you can't find one back there, let me know as I have (I think) three of them. With any luck though, someone will respond who lives on your side of the country :). > If anyone has any duplicates that they'd like to sell/trade etc. than > PLEASE let me know! I live in the (relatively) Philadelphia area. > From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 11 19:47:01 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Terak 8510a Message-ID: Oh yes! I finally own a little bit of a PDP. The Department of AI at the university here just disposed of some of its old hardware and I ended up with a Terak 8510a with extra floppy (8512) and monitor, keyboard (8532). Lovely!!! It's a really neat and fast machine. FYI, it has a four-slot backplane with an LSI-11 board (with FPU), 28kw of MOS RAM, a brilliant framebuffer card (640x240 text and 320x240 graphics at the same time -- the card mixes both modes on the same screen and allows hardware panning, smooth scrolling and other effects), Shugart floppy interface, RS-232/current loop and some other strange card (probably for controlling some robotic device of sorts -- useful). It came with all of its documentation (disgustingly complete, including business reply card with `READ THIS NOW' written at the back, brochures, reference cards, RT-11 manuals, Shugart tech ref (so you want to take apart your Shugart 8" drive's head assembly?), etc). Also a set of original red-and-purple(?) PDP-11 manuals for RT-11. And to top it off, there were a few 1978-1979 DEC PDP manuals for various architectures. They're in almost mint condition, but the paper is really showing its age. GOOD documentation, though. Software-wise, there are both of the common OSs for the Terak: RT-11 and UCSD P-System/Pascal (haven't worked with this in ten years, but my fingers still remember how to press 'F','L',':' really fast). Lots of languages, including Logo, BASIC and Prolog (it *was* a DAI machine, you see). The 12" monitor is rock steady and displays a clear image in P3 phosphor (sort-of paper white) and the keyboard is refreshingly 70s with nice clunky keys that, however, are really comfortable for touch typing once you get used to them. Oh yes, I also got a boxed TI-99/4A with all its manuals and a memory expansion box, but that is probably too common for you folks in the States and certainly too mundane in comparison to the Terak. I'm a happy man. :-) PS: Oh, the department has quite a nice collection of old stuff, including a PERQ that just seemed to attract a lot of drool. They're keeping it, though -- it's going to a real museum (not computer related, though). All in all, I think I must have looked too much like a kiddie in a sweet shop. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 12 13:19:51 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Terak 8510a In-Reply-To: ; from "Alexios Chouchoulas" at Jun 12, 97 1:47 am Message-ID: <199706121219.5293@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Oh yes! I finally own a little bit of a PDP. The Department of AI at the > university here just disposed of some of its old hardware and I ended up > with a Terak 8510a with extra floppy (8512) and monitor, keyboard (8532). > Lovely!!! Oh, you lucky thing!. The Terak is a machine I'm looking out for, and I've never managed to find one. Whatever you do, look after it. > PS: Oh, the department has quite a nice collection of old stuff, including a > PERQ that just seemed to attract a lot of drool. They're keeping it, Any ideas as to which model? If it's the long-lost PERQ T4, serial number DEMO01, I'll not be responsible for my actions :-).... Seriously, if you are looking out for a PERQ, and don't really mind which model you get (They are _ALL_ fine machines), you are very likely to find one. An advert on alt.sys.perq will often get results. > though -- it's going to a real museum (not computer related, though). Pity. That machine should be kept running, and not just stuck in a museum... > All in all, I think I must have looked too much like a kiddie in a sweet > shop. Or like I did when faced with 10 tables covered in DEC spares and the comment 'Take whatever you want' ! -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 12 08:01:16 1997 From: nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk (Nick Challoner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions Message-ID: <866116958.103556.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Hi all... I just picked up an Atari 2600 with 3 catridges but there's no power supply or joysticks. I'm not complaining though, as it only cost 5 Pounds from from a charity shop here in London! So, the predictable question is what are the specs for the power supply? (i.e. voltage, current and polarity of what appears to be a 3.5" jack). Also can i use the joysticks from a ZX Spectrum or TI-99/4A with it? If not, can anyone give me details of the pin-out so i can wire up my own? TIA...Nick. PS I've been having a little surf trying to find this info, and in my travels came across a site that has a 2600 emulator for download on various platforms! It's at -- Nick Challoner nickc@ladyland.demon.co.uk Aviation photographs at: http://www.ladyland.demon.co.uk "Bother" said Pooh, as he deleted his root directory. From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Thu Jun 12 08:00:52 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34, as well as an offer In-Reply-To: <199706120221.AA11256@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Jun 11, 97 10:21:52 pm Message-ID: <199706121300.IAA06982@mastif.ee.nd.edu> > > > > My GOD! Has anyone seen this??? SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING! > > It really is no fun being so helpless... > > I am on the East Coast (NYC, for those who want to make an index - a good > idea!), and would have no chance of getting the things. > > I do make quite a few trips between here and Chicago, and could be > persuaded to move large things (on a flatbed trailer) westbound for gas > money. > > I feel a bit "unclean" tonight, as today I junked out most of the > original Internet (aka NSFnet) backbone routers - big IBM PowerServer > 930s. It is a shame I could not save more of them (2 are now in RCS/RIs > collection, and 1 is in mine), but the beasts are definitely not carry-on > luggage sized. > > If anyone wants historic RS/6000 _parts_, speak up and I will send it out > for postage costs (I dare not sell any! I like my job!). Additionally, > there are still 2 or 3 still intact in the New York area that I _may_ be > able to liberate to any other interested retrocomputing clubs (with a > truck or van). > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > > Hello - I am running a model 580 and a parts machine would be great. What model do you have? John Ott ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jun 12 08:24:03 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions Message-ID: <199706121324.IAA26879@challenge.sunflower.com> The joysticks, for the c64, atari2600, atari 400,800,1200 series of computers are all identical. Any joystick that is rated for these machines will work just fine. I'll have to double check, but im pretty positive the power is 9vDC around 300mv, possibly up to 500mv, not sure. ---------- > From: Nick Challoner > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Atari 2600 questions > Date: Thursday, June 12, 1997 8:01 AM > > Hi all... > > I just picked up an Atari 2600 with 3 catridges but there's no power > supply or joysticks. I'm not complaining though, as it only cost 5 > Pounds from from a charity shop here in London! > > So, the predictable question is what are the specs > for the power supply? (i.e. voltage, current and polarity of what > appears to be a 3.5" jack). > > Also can i use the joysticks from a ZX Spectrum or TI-99/4A with it? > If not, can anyone give me details of the pin-out so i can wire up my > own? > > TIA...Nick. > > PS I've been having a little surf trying to find this info, and in my > travels came across a site that has a 2600 emulator for download on > various platforms! It's at > > > -- > Nick Challoner nickc@ladyland.demon.co.uk > Aviation photographs at: http://www.ladyland.demon.co.uk > "Bother" said Pooh, as he deleted his root directory. From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 12 08:56:44 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > A friend of mine works at a university and was recently having problems > with the sudents/faculty "wasting" paper. (i.e. printing out 1000 page > documents on the laser printers.) My solution: Replace the laser > printers with my fleet (currently 5) of daisy wheel printers. Just make sure that the printers are loaded with endless fabric ribbons rather than the expensive one-shot carbon film items. What printers do you have? I'm looking for a TRS-80 DWP-II (the original grey case -- not a IIb). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 10:48:19 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions References: <866116958.103556.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <33A01A43.2FAB@rain.org> Nick Challoner wrote: > > I just picked up an Atari 2600 with 3 catridges but there's no power > > So, the predictable question is what are the specs > for the power supply? (i.e. voltage, current and polarity of what > appears to be a 3.5" jack). > The one I have is Model C010472, 9 VDC @ 500ma, and center pin positive. > Also can i use the joysticks from a ZX Spectrum or TI-99/4A with it? > If not, can anyone give me details of the pin-out so i can wire up my > own? > Can't help with compatibility although the pinout for the Atari Joystick is: Pin 1 - Forward Pin 2 - Back Pin 3 - Left Pin 4 - Right Pin 5 - No Connection Pin 6 - Trigger Pin 7 - No Connection Pin 8 - Ground Pin 9 - No Connection From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jun 12 10:51:43 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Another one to be rescued? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 02:38:43 GMT From: Micah Voiers Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp8 Subject: FS: pdp 8 I have what I think are 2 pdp 8(a I think) I see two omni hex processor boards, 2 rko 5 drives( one has some rust on one side), two case things with power supply, 4 or 5 memory boards a few controllers, 1 face plate. FREE, OBO. The pdp is in Austin, I am in Ft Worth, Texas. I would rather not haul this thing up here. I won't ship it cause that would seem like a major pain in the neck., unless ya pay, a lot. Also got about 10 trs-80 model 3's. I would like to keep this for historical sake but it is heavy and takes up a lot of space. Let me know micah1@flash.net Oh yea, I should mention the last time this thing was fired up about 5-7 years ago it had some sort of problem with it staying powered up or something. They where not able to get the data off their disks. Other then that I don't know anymore details. The original owners of this thing was Robert Mueler(sp?) Airport(ATC at its best). --- So, anyone in the Austin, TX area want to grab this one either for their collection, or for holding while it seeks a home? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From william at ans.net Thu Jun 12 10:54:28 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34, as well as an offer In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970611215544.00fcb344@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <199706121554.AA08268@interlock.ans.net> > >If anyone wants historic RS/6000 _parts_, speak up and I will send it out > >for postage costs (I dare not sell any! I like my job!). > > Hmmm, some detail perhaps? I may be interested. I have some 8mm tape drives (SCSI), 1.44 diskette drives (should work in a PS/2...hey! who just threw that rotten tomato!), RS/6000 SCSI and RS-232 cards (will not work in a PS/2), some big IBM ASICs with zillions of pins and big heatsinks, and a Powerserver 930 motherboard (I do not know if the thing will function without the front panel - lights, buttons, keyswitch). I suppose this stuff is not classic yet (three years to go, for most entrance rules), but came from somewhat important machines (yes, all of your freinds will say "so what?"). William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Thu Jun 12 10:56:27 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34, as well as an offer In-Reply-To: <199706121300.IAA06982@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Message-ID: <199706121556.AA08403@interlock.ans.net> > I am running a model 580 and a parts machine would be great. What > model do you have? Powerserver 930 (I think it they were 7015-930s). William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 12 11:01:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions In-Reply-To: <866116958.103556.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Nick Challoner wrote: > Hi all... > > I just picked up an Atari 2600 with 3 catridges but there's no power > supply or joysticks. I'm not complaining though, as it only cost 5 > Pounds from from a charity shop here in London! > > So, the predictable question is what are the specs > for the power supply? (i.e. voltage, current and polarity of what > appears to be a 3.5" jack). 9volts, 500ma, although anything from 250ma will do. > Also can i use the joysticks from a ZX Spectrum or TI-99/4A with it? > If not, can anyone give me details of the pin-out so i can wire up my > own? The joysticks are simply on/off contact switches. You should be able to find at least one of those even in the most remote corners of the world. > PS I've been having a little surf trying to find this info, and in my > travels came across a site that has a 2600 emulator for download on > various platforms! It's at > You should also be able to find a site whereby you can order a joystick from. There are probably a couple places in Europe. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From idavis at comland.com Thu Jun 12 11:26:07 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Another one to be rescued? Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970612162607.008decb4@mail.comland.com > At 08:51 AM 6/12/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Oh yea, I should mention the last time this thing was fired up about >5-7 years ago it had some sort of problem with it staying powered up >or something. They where not able to get the data off their disks. >Other then that I don't know anymore details. The original owners of >this thing was Robert Mueler(sp?) Airport(ATC at its best). > >--- > >So, anyone in the Austin, TX area want to grab this one either for their >collection, or for holding while it seeks a home? > >-jim >--- >jimw@agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > Jim, I have already emailed Micah, and am waiting for a response. Here a conincidence for you. My dad works for the FAA, at Robert Mueller as the Radar Technician. If I get this, I will see if he knows about it. I will let everyone know how it goes. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From idavis at comland.com Thu Jun 12 12:57:55 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue List is Up. Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970612175755.00937628@mail.comland.com > Hey everyone. There has been a great response to the list of people willing to go out of their way to pick up our beloved classics and save them from a fate worse than death. I have added all of the people that have requested it so far today, and did a little work on the page. I think it is ready for the general public to know about. There wasn't a single complaint about any part, so I think that's a thumbs up. I will be getting it listed in the major search engines on the web, so maybe we can get some real results from it soon. I am currently in the process of attempting to get a couple of pdp8's, and am working on arrangements to store them for a fellow classic computer list subscriber until he can pick them up. Exactly what this list is all about. Comments are more than welcome, and let me know if you want to be on the list. http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, idavis@comland.com | check out the Classic Computer Rescue List - indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html From Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 12 12:22:03 1997 From: Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk (Pete Robinson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions In-Reply-To: <866116958.103556.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <866116958.103556.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk>, Nick Challoner writes >Hi all... > >I just picked up an Atari 2600 with 3 catridges but there's no power >supply or joysticks. I'm not complaining though, as it only cost 5 >Pounds from from a charity shop here in London! > should have tried a car boot sale, they are very much cheaper. >Also can i use the joysticks from a ZX Spectrum or TI-99/4A with it? >If not, can anyone give me details of the pin-out so i can wire up my >own? The kempston joystick interface allowed you to use the atari joystick on a speccy, so any old speccy stick that's kemptson compatible will work. -- Pete Robinson pete@madhippy.demon.co.uk http://www.madhippy.demon.co.uk - 8-bit, faqs, emulators, web utilities. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jun 10 03:45:22 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <339EE233.2D57@rain.org> Message-ID: On 11-Jun-97, Marvin wrote: >Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? I currently have a Commodore VIC-1525, Commodore MPS-803, the ADAM printer, amd am awaiting the arrival of an Atari 8bit printer. Also I am working on a lead for an Aquarius thermal printer. I mainly pick up the machine-specific printers, vice the early generic ones, though my first printer was an old Star-Micronics LV-2010. Nice little printer. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Coleco ADAM, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, Model 4, and Model 4P, plus Odyssey2, Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jun 10 03:48:57 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11-Jun-97, James Willing wrote: >Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop >a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are >when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. >Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to >pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want >it. Jim, Sounds like a good idea, and you could most certainly put me down for the Virginia area (southern Maryland, eastern Virginia, northeast North Carolina). Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Coleco ADAM, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, Model 4, and Model 4P, plus Odyssey2, Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Jun 12 14:47:42 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Filling in the holes... In-Reply-To: <339FA6F3.3AFA@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > That one is most likely easy once you tell us *what* Atari you would > like. I still have the original Atari 400 and peripherals that I paid > about $1500 or so for when it first came out. Neat machine! I have > several 400's and 800's although I need to check them out to make sure Preferably, one of the older ones (400/800, not XL, XE, etc.) > > - I'd like a MSX machine as well (never even seen one in anything other > > than magazine articles) > > > > What is an MSX machine? From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jun 12 06:04:32 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: REAL plug&play hardware Message-ID: I had my Atari 800 up and running again today, testing out my 1050 drive and such, and decided to toy with the Atari 1030 modem I have sitting here for it. I had forgotten how interesting an item it is. For those of you that aren't familiar with it, it's an external 300baud modem that plugs into the same general I/O ports as the Atari disk drives and such. You turn on the modem first, then the Atari 8bit, and the 8bit actually boots into a program called 'Modemlink', which is stored in ROM on the modem. No disks, cartridges or anything...just the computer and the modem! Modemlink is pretty basic, but it does autodial. Might be time to fire it up and try it again on one of the local C-64 BBS's running on the Color64 software still since they support 40 column mode. That certainly beats the heck out of the compatibility issues I had to deal with concerning terminal programs and BBS's on the PC with early 1200 and 2400 baud modems. Not to mention there's no setup. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Coleco ADAM, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, Model 4, and Model 4P, plus Odyssey2, Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Jun 12 14:57:28 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > Just make sure that the printers are loaded with endless fabric ribbons > rather than the expensive one-shot carbon film items. > > What printers do you have? I'm looking for a TRS-80 DWP-II (the original > grey case -- not a IIb). > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe Oh, just some of the general Centronics this printer will work with any computer type printer. I have a Juki (really heavy) a Royal Lettermaster or something like that (surprisingly cute) some kind of Epson and two others I forgot about. I've also got a few DOT matrix printers like an old Seikosha that looks like it has LESS than 9 pins and my Aunt just gave me an Epson 132 character printer. For Commodore's I have a few dot matrix clones, a 1520 plotter (really neat, really slow) and my favorite, a little receipt paper printer (doesw graphics too!!!!) Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From MPritchard at ensemble.net Thu Jun 12 15:51:07 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions Message-ID: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C737@consulting.ensemble.net> > > PS I've been having a little surf trying to find this info, and in > my > > travels came across a site that has a 2600 emulator for download on > > various platforms! It's at > > > > >You should also be able to find a site whereby you can order a > joystick > >from. There are probably a couple places in Europe. > > From my investigations, new joysticks for the 2600/etc are getting a > might hard to come by. From what I can tell, no one is making them > anymore. I do know that Video 61 has them. > > -Matt Pritchard > > > From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Thu Jun 12 15:58:01 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: MSX comments.... (Re:) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > > - I'd like a MSX machine as well (never even seen one in anything other > > > than magazine articles) > > > > > > > What is an MSX machine? > > >From what I gather, it was an early attempt ('84-'85) at computer > "standardization" by a number of large companies (Sony, Yamaha, Panasonic, > Sanyo, Hitachi, Goldstar, and a bunch of others. The systems were all (?) > Z80 based with a TI graphics chip and generally had 48-64k of memory. > > MSX stands for Microsoft Extended (oh no!) and the OS, called MSX-DOS was > format compatible with MS-DOS and apparently had smoe CP/M functionality. > MSX failed miserably, mostly because for the time period, the technology > was old. (Amiga's, Macs, and ST's on the way) > Actually, to make a few clarifications, as far as I know, on the above questions and answers. MSX does NOT stand for Microsoft Extended. That basically was a bad rumor. The MSX was an attempt and a world-wide standardization of computers by several companies. I'm not quite sure if MSX-DOS was format compatible with MS-DOS.... I don't think it was. And, finally, this project (the MSX) did NOT fail miserably. In the United States, teh MSX did fail miserably... but mainly because of the fact that it was not widely marketed here. The MSX was VERY popular in Asia and, I believe, in Europe. To tell you the truth it still is! I happen to be a fan of the MSX, and can to you the quality of the many, many, game titles for it are quite similar to that of first Nintendo Entertainment System. Many of the games were sold on both platforms.... such as Metal Gear, Donkey Kong, Dig-Dug, F-16 Fighting Falcon, Frogger, Galaga, The Goonies, Zelda, Thexder, Zaxxon, etc., etc. A large manufacturer of game software for the MSX was Konami, and world-wide leading game manufacturer. So, that should let you know about some fo the MSX capabilities. Anyway, maybe some of our European and Asian friends out there could let us know more about the MSX? I personally do not have a machine, but have tons of MSX software running on emulators on my PC. I would love to get one, so again, if anyone has one for sale, please let me know. Look forward to hearing from you, CORD G. COSLOR Archive Software PO Box 308 Peru, Nebraska 68421 (402) 872- 3272 From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Thu Jun 12 16:02:00 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: Atari 800 Atari Artist cart? Message-ID: Howdy: Does anyone out there have the old Atari 800LX Atari Artist cartridge? It is catalog # RX8053. Please let me know as I have been looking for it for some time. Thanks, CORD COSLOR Archive Software //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 12 16:09:34 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:20 2005 Subject: REAL plug&play hardware In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > same general I/O ports as the Atari disk drives and such. You turn on the > modem first, then the Atari 8bit, and the 8bit actually boots into a program > called 'Modemlink', which is stored in ROM on the modem. No disks, cartridges > or anything...just the computer and the modem! Modemlink is pretty basic, but What a sweet paradigm. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 12 16:07:08 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Filling in the holes... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > What is an MSX machine? > > >From what I gather, it was an early attempt ('84-'85) at computer > "standardization" by a number of large companies (Sony, Yamaha, Panasonic, > Sanyo, Hitachi, Goldstar, and a bunch of others. The systems were all (?) > Z80 based with a TI graphics chip and generally had 48-64k of memory. > > MSX stands for Microsoft Extended (oh no!) and the OS, called MSX-DOS was > format compatible with MS-DOS and apparently had smoe CP/M functionality. > MSX failed miserably, mostly because for the time period, the technology > was old. (Amiga's, Macs, and ST's on the way) Cool! I want one of these. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 12 16:05:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue List is Up. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970612175755.00937628@mail.comland.com > Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > Hey everyone. There has been a great response to the list of people willing > to go out of their way to pick up our beloved classics and save them from a > fate worse than death. I have added all of the people that have requested > it so far today, and did a little work on the page. I think it is ready for > the general public to know about. There wasn't a single complaint about any > part, so I think that's a thumbs up. I will be getting it listed in the > major search engines on the web, so maybe we can get some real results from > it soon. I am currently in the process of attempting to get a couple of > pdp8's, and am working on arrangements to store them for a fellow classic > computer list subscriber until he can pick them up. Exactly what this list > is all about. Comments are more than welcome, and let me know if you want to > be on the list. > > http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html What a great service! Thanks for taking this on, Isaac! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From idavis at comland.com Thu Jun 12 16:20:13 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970612212013.00905720@mail.comland.com > Here's one for the printer books. I had a printer for my atari 800 that we order out of the DAK catalog. It used a little cartridge shaped like a bullet with a contact on the end. The printer would fire a spark and actually burn the dots onto the paper to make the characters. It was relatively slow, but considering it had to make about 9 passes to form a row of characters it did pretty well. I can still remember the burning smell everytime you would print something out. It was really a neat little printer, and I can't for the life of me figure out why we got rid of it. I still have the driver disk for it, but the actual name of the thing escapes me right now. Wait a minute, it was an Olivetti, but I can't remember the model. The coolest part was turning the lights off when it was printing and watching the sparks fly across the paper as it printed. That's a printer I would like to have again. Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, idavis@comland.com | check out the Classic Computer Rescue List - indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Thu Jun 12 16:22:43 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34, as well as an offer In-Reply-To: <199706121556.AA08403@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Jun 12, 97 11:56:27 am Message-ID: <199706122122.QAA07103@mastif.ee.nd.edu> > > > I am running a model 580 and a parts machine would be great. What > > model do you have? > > Powerserver 930 (I think it they were 7015-930s). > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > Mine are 7013s, so I'll pass. Thanks. John ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 12 18:16:38 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: REAL plug&play hardware In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 12, 97 02:09:34 pm Message-ID: <9706122216.AA28309@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 605 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970612/b6de3b4c/attachment-0001.ksh From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 12 06:30:20 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Filling in the holes... In-Reply-To: <339FA6F3.3AFA@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > What is an MSX machine? MicroSoft eXtended Basic. Bill's attempt to take over the Japanese home computer marker, ooh, 14 years ago. It produced a standard machine: Z80 at 3.5 MHz, GI AY-3-8912 for sound, TMS-9918A for video, MS Basic in ROM and external ROM cartridges) that was implemented by a lot of Japanese manufacturers (and Spectravideo who IIRC inspired the hardware specs with their older SVI models [318, 328]). I don't think it did very well in the States, but it sold a bit in Europe (esp. Netherlands and UK) and I guess it must have sold a lot in the Far East. They're typically nice, robust machines with good, complete typewriter keyboards and, most of the times, prominent designer cursor keys in bright colo[u]rs. The BASIC is really powerful (it's effectively what PC users knew as GW-BASIC), allowing direct control of the video/audio hardware *plus* indirect, high-level control (eg LINE, DRAW, PLAY, etc). Alexios --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jun 12 18:56:28 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: classic computer collector's index Message-ID: <970612195623_945580917@emout02.mail.aol.com> somebody, i dont remember, put forth: >Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to develop >> a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are >> when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. >> Even if a person did not want the particular item, they might be able to >> pick it up while arrangements were made to get it to someone who did want >> it. feel free to add me to the list. i'd be glad to go out and discover new finds and give the opportunity for others to get it before the scrapyard does. i've a truck and a 3 bedroom house, so storage is no problem! =D david From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jun 12 22:21:59 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: REAL plug&play hardware References: <9706122216.AA28309@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33A0BCD7.6584@unix.aardvarkol.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > I remember showing an undergraduate how it was possible to plug > a modem into a terminal and dial up to a shell account. He was > so amazed that the world had been easily fooled into thinking that you > need a computer to access the Internet :-) Tim, How true. One of my first experiences with a modem was messing with a non-Hayes compatible Racal-Vadic with a simple terminal, though I forget just which terminal it was emulating. Now I occasionally do the opposite of what you refer to above and hook my Atari ST up to my Amiga 3000 as a VT-100 terminal for shell processes! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 12 19:27:46 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: MSX comments.... (Re:) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > And, finally, this project (the MSX) did NOT fail miserably. In the United > States, teh MSX did fail miserably... but mainly because of the fact that > it was not widely marketed here. The MSX was VERY popular in Asia and, I > believe, in Europe. To tell you the truth it still is! I happen to be a > fan of the MSX, and can to you the quality of the many, many, game titles > for it are quite similar to that of first Nintendo Entertainment System. > Many of the games were sold on both platforms.... such as Metal Gear, > Donkey Kong, Dig-Dug, F-16 Fighting Falcon, Frogger, Galaga, The Goonies, > Zelda, Thexder, Zaxxon, etc., etc. A large manufacturer of game software > for the MSX was Konami, and world-wide leading game manufacturer. So, that > should let you know about some fo the MSX capabilities. WoW! The more I hear about this thing the more I want one. It's amazing that this system was so unknown in the states. It's like discovering a whole new species. Of course, I'd never heard of the Oric either until I started doing more research into older computers. I wonder if anything will come out of the old eastern bloc countries. I hear they did quite a bit of cloning of western technology. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 12 20:06:30 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: looking for info on tape drive Message-ID: <199706130106.AA22682@world.std.com> slightly off but information needed. Cipher model st150s-II 6150? cartridge tape drive scsi interface. I need data on this jumpers commands anything. Allison From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Thu Jun 12 20:11:07 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: looking for info on tape drive In-Reply-To: <199706130106.AA22682@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > Cipher model st150s-II 6150? cartridge tape drive scsi interface. I actually repaired six or seven of these drives for resale a couple of years ago. I should still have my notes around somewhere. I can give a look when I get off work tonight and email you back with what I dig up. ok -r From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 12 20:40:27 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970612184749.096f3fbe@mail.crl.com> At 03:20 PM 6/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >A printer is a printer, but since nobody really looks upon these as >collectible, they are the most likely to be overlooked or sent to the >scrap heap. A big problem is that they often weigh a lot and are a >burden to store. Nonetheless, I have recently started to collect the old The Computer History Association of California has printers in its collection, and (I think) is as interested in saving printers as anything else. P.S., I'll put in a plug for the CHAC here... Good org, great mag, everyone should join/subscribe. For more info, see . (I am, btw, on the board of directors, but mostly I'm just handy for getting the container doors closed. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 12 20:40:54 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: AuctionWeb (was: Free (maybe): Tandy 10 MB Drive Case) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970612184816.422fec16@mail.crl.com> btw, there's also an interesting sounding doohickey up for bid: '84 Portable Personal Computer Sord IS-11C (item #xjw18405) Ends sunday the 15th, and there are 7 available. Anyone know anything about it? You can get to it at . Min bid is $25, though. AuctionWeb is a good place to find interesting things sometimes, especially early PC and just-before-pc stuff. (And I hate to tell people because that means more bidders which means higher bids...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 12 20:41:03 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Filling in the holes... Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970612184825.422fe444@mail.crl.com> At 01:32 AM 6/12/97 -0400, you wrote: >- I'd like a MSX machine as well (never even seen one in anything other >than magazine articles) I *sorta* have an MSX machine. It was donated to ABACUS, the Atari Bay Area Computer Users Society, but isn't of much interest to the club. So it sits in my garage (or attic?). One of these days, I'll get around to making a suitable cash donation to the club and move it in with my collection. In the meantime, if anyone wants any info or anything, let me know and I'll dig it up... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 12 20:41:26 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970612184848.422724b8@mail.crl.com> At 08:48 AM 6/12/97 -0700, you wrote: >Can't help with compatibility although the pinout for the Atari Joystick >is: > >Pin 1 - Forward >Pin 2 - Back >Pin 3 - Left >Pin 4 - Right >Pin 5 - No Connection >Pin 6 - Trigger >Pin 7 - No Connection >Pin 8 - Ground >Pin 9 - No Connection Because the Atari (same as commodore and others) joysticks are digital (on/off for each direction; done with simple switches) instead of analog (varying amount of each direction; done with potentiometers) like most PC joysticks, it is rather easy to build alternative input devices, whether it's something to stand on, or a bunch of buttons, or whatever. I think the other pins (5, 7, 9) were used for the paddles (which were analog devices.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu Jun 12 20:51:13 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: AuctionWeb (was: Free (maybe): Tandy 10 MB Drive Case) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970612184816.422fec16@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: For any interested - straight from the big list: IS-11C Z80A 80K ?? MICRO 87 Bill On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > btw, there's also an interesting sounding doohickey up for bid: > > '84 Portable Personal Computer Sord IS-11C (item #xjw18405) > > Ends sunday the 15th, and there are 7 available. Anyone know anything about > it? > > You can get to it at . > Min bid is $25, though. > > AuctionWeb is a good place to find interesting things sometimes, especially > early PC and just-before-pc stuff. (And I hate to tell people because that > means more bidders which means higher bids...) > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jun 12 19:52:29 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: MSX comments.... (Re:) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2052A76A6@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | WoW! The more I hear about this thing the more I want one. It's amazing | that this system was so unknown in the states. It's like discovering a | whole new species. Yep, I was obviously thrilled when I ran into my Spectravideo 328 in its original box, for $5 at a local thrift... Sorry Sam, didn't mean to gloat there. Did I mention it was accompanied by the cassette drive in its original box too? Kai From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jun 12 20:58:11 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: looking for info on tape drive Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2052A76D5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> That's a Cipher ST150. It's a old, generic (apart from being early SCSI) 150MB 1/4" SCSI tape drive. It's still supported by most backup software. Kai > ---------- > From: allisonp@world.std.com[SMTP:allisonp@world.std.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 1997 6:06 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: looking for info on tape drive > > slightly off but information needed. > > Cipher model st150s-II 6150? cartridge tape drive scsi interface. > > I need data on this jumpers commands anything. > > Allison > From BigLouS at aol.com Thu Jun 12 21:07:03 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: 5 1/2" Drives Message-ID: <970612220549_254532186@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-11 02:45:42 EDT, you write: > Do any of you collectors > have a use for them or need them to complete a given machine? I certainly could use three or four. A lot of the older machines including the Kaypro 2's and IBM PC's and XT's came equipped with Tandon drives which were poorly made. As a result I have two or three machines sitting around that need 5 1/4" full height drive transplants. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Regards, Lou From BigLouS at aol.com Thu Jun 12 21:07:17 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <970612220559_1620309594@emout17.mail.aol.com> > On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > > Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? A topic I've given a lot of thought. The original MX-80 and the Paper Tiger immediately spring to mind as classic printers worthy of incorporating into a museum but I can't think of much else I'd have to own (aside from maybe an original laserjet). Given the space limitations that most of us have collecting printers in the manner that we collect computers is impractical. But if you are inclined to collect them they are certainly plentiful and cheap. Lou From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu Jun 12 21:10:43 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <970612220559_1620309594@emout17.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > A topic I've given a lot of thought. The original MX-80 and the Paper Tiger > immediately spring to mind as classic printers worthy of incorporating into a > museum but I can't think of much else I'd have to own (aside from maybe an > original laserjet). Given the space limitations that most of us have > collecting printers in the manner that we collect computers is impractical. Add to that the Gorilla-Banana - 1 pin printing at it's finest! And probably the dumbest name I've ever seen on a piece of computer equipment. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From chemif at mbox.queen.it Thu Jun 12 20:15:40 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Collectors Index Message-ID: <199706130115.DAA05537@mbox.queen.it> At 14:38 11/06/97 -0500, Issac Davis wrote: >I can see that we are going to inundate this list with our home locations. >I will go ahead and volunteer to keep the list, and put it up on my web >site. If you want to be added to this list, email me idavis@comland.com >with your name, city/area, and a way to contact you - email or phone. After >the list is compiled, I will put it on the web, and will be able to email it >to anyone involved. >Feel free to give me any contact information you want. I will only include what you tell me to. >Isaac Davis >idavis@comland.com >indavis@juno.com Hi, Isaac, really a very good idea. So here I am: NAME:Riccardo Romagnoli CITY/AREA:Forli'(FO)/Emilia Romagna/Italy WAY TO CONTACT ME:chemif@mbox.queen.it Fax:+39-(0)543-402190 Telex:551132 CHEMIF I (yes, the old 50 BAUD stuff!) RANGE:Emilia-Romagna region (Ev. North side of the "boot") MAIN AREA OF INTEREST:Mini's from 70's (esp. Texas DS990/x family);Micro;Olivetti;all kind teletypes machines from any age;Printers. I will be glad to exchange any information and documents I have (or search if needed) about classics coming from Italy. CIAO! ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL. NUMBER* where*=asterisk key | for help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html TELEX:551132 CHEMIF I ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 12 21:02:46 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: AuctionWeb (was: Free (maybe): Tandy 10 MB Drive Case) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970612184816.422fec16@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > AuctionWeb is a good place to find interesting things sometimes, especially > early PC and just-before-pc stuff. (And I hate to tell people because that > means more bidders which means higher bids...) Exactly, and a lot of times you'll get idiots who think they've landed a gold mine and will bid something up to such ridiculous levels it's not even worth it. I tend not to bid on anything from AW because I know I'll just find the same thing at a flea market a couple weeks later for a fraction of the price. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 21:21:47 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions References: <1.5.4.16.19970612184848.422724b8@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: <33A0AEBB.1718@rain.org> Uncle Roger wrote: > > > Because the Atari (same as commodore and others) joysticks are digital > (on/off for each direction; done with simple switches) instead of analog > (varying amount of each direction; done with potentiometers) like most PC > joysticks, it is rather easy to build alternative input devices, whether > it's something to stand on, or a bunch of buttons, or whatever. > > I think the other pins (5, 7, 9) were used for the paddles (which were > analog devices.) > Back when the Atari 400 was introduced, I got hooked on Space Invaders. I found the Atari and other Joysticks to be a complete waste when it came to playing Space Invaders since the these joysticks were 8-position and it was too easy to move the stick to a diagonal position and get killed on the game. I considered what a 10 pound sledge hammer might do to that 8 ounce stick, really liked the thought, but decided a more rational approach was needed :). At that time, a well built 4-position commercial quality joystick became available at only about $18 or so, so I built a dozen units or so and they were sold through a computer store a friend of mine owned at (I think) about $45 each. Ah yes, nothing like the "good old days"! From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 21:29:03 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: 5 1/2" Drives References: <970612220549_254532186@emout04.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33A0B06F.5286@rain.org> BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > > I certainly could use three or four. A lot of the older machines including > the Kaypro 2's and IBM PC's and XT's came equipped with Tandon drives which > were poorly made. As a result I have two or three machines sitting around > that need 5 1/4" full height drive transplants. Any help would be greatly > appreciated. > Okay, I tend to do things the easy way and will just give them to a Mailboxes, Etc. and let them pack and send the things. I'll find out what it costs and let you know. From garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu Thu Jun 12 17:28:00 1997 From: garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu (Gary S. Katz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue List In-Reply-To: <339FA224.71EA@rain.org> Message-ID: <199706130228.WAA10447@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu> OK, here's my $.02 -- Sign me up for these geographic regions: 1) Northwestern Baltimore (Owings Mills) 2) Western Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh/Latrobe) 3) Central NJ (East Brunswick) I'm currently living in #1, storing most of my TRS-80 / Commodore collection in #3 (parents), and visit #2 (in-laws) at least once a month. I'll also seek out Atari 8-bits (I have a 400 in working condition). I'm particularly interested in the Radio Shack Line (have 4 Mod 1's and am working on a vintage Mod 3). I also have a 102, PC-3 and PC-4. HOWEVER, like other posters to this list, I have a wife that "simply doesn't understand the value of old computers" and am currently living in a townhouse with two young sons (read: ZERO storage space). As such, I don't think I can comfortably call myself the first line of defense in most salvage and rescue cases. Glad to see this project come to life in such short order! -Gary Katz > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:15:48 -0700 > From: Marvin > Subject: Re: Classic Computer Rescue List > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Isaac Davis wrote: > > > > Ok, I have taken the info I got from today, and put it up on the web. > > Nothing fancy, and I haven't indexed it yet with any search engines. Take a > > look at it and let me know what you think, or if you want to change your > > information. The url is: > > > > http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html > > > > Hi Isaac, I just took a look at the page and it looks good! I think > this type of page is a first on the Internet and I suspect it will > provide a lot of leads quickly once people start to hear about it. > > As far as my info, could you add that my main area of interest is > microcomputers from the 70's with the associated documentation? Thanks! > ***************************************************** Gary S. Katz 626C OEH University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA 15213 (412) 624-9347 voice (412) 624-5407 fax ***************************************************** From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 21:40:31 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Printers References: <970612220559_1620309594@emout17.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33A0B31F.5E2E@rain.org> BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > > > On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > > > > Along the lines of saving stuff, does anyone collect the old printers? > > A topic I've given a lot of thought. The original MX-80 and the Paper Tiger > immediately spring to mind as classic printers worthy of incorporating into a > museum but I can't think of much else I'd have to own (aside from maybe an > original laserjet). Given the space limitations that most of us have > collecting printers in the manner that we collect computers is impractical. > > But if you are inclined to collect them they are certainly plentiful and > cheap. > Actually, I am not inclined to collect them since they take up a LOT of room and most are fairly heavy. The count of printers here is unknown but probably a couple of dozen. The ones I do have are either ones that *I* consider an important part of computer history or that go with a system, i.e. the Tandy and CBM printers. Some are becoming a bit more scarce, and if someone is collecting printers and is looking for specific printers, they can let us know and we can keep our eyes open. From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 21:44:20 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: PS/2 Computers References: <970612220559_1620309594@emout17.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33A0B404.7314@rain.org> If anyone is interested in PS/2 computers, let me know. The Santa Barbara Amateur Radio Club has a bunch of them and I just found out they may be going to the scrap yard this Saturday or Sunday. SBARC has a yearly electronic "junk" sale and they have been collecting stuff for that event. They also have ATs and XTs but I don't know quite what is there. I'll be talking to the guy in charge shortly and will find out if they have other computers that people on this list might be interested in. I think though, that most will be relatively early (and valueless now) MS-DOS machines. From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 21:47:07 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Printers References: <1.5.4.16.19970612184749.096f3fbe@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: <33A0B4AB.77B8@rain.org> Uncle Roger wrote: > > P.S., I'll put in a plug for the CHAC here... Good org, great mag, everyone > should join/subscribe. For more info, see . (I am, > btw, on the board of directors, but mostly I'm just handy for getting the > container doors closed. 8^) > I noticed their web page and it looks like a pretty good collection! One thing I didn't see there was information about how it got started, who was involved, what kind of a group it is, etc. Can you help out and fill in the blanks? Thanks! From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jun 12 22:36:36 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: REAL plug&play hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Whoa! Talk about plug-n-play! Jeff > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:09:34 -0700 (PDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Sam Ismail > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: REAL plug&play hardware > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > same general I/O ports as the Atari disk drives and such. You turn on the > > modem first, then the Atari 8bit, and the 8bit actually boots into a program > > called 'Modemlink', which is stored in ROM on the modem. No disks, cartridges > > or anything...just the computer and the modem! Modemlink is pretty basic, but > > What a sweet paradigm. > > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jun 12 22:28:48 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970612212013.00905720@mail.comland.com > Message-ID: Y' know, I seems to me that some of these 'sparky' dot matrix printers used aluminized "thermal" paper. I used to have a stack of old machine runs on such paper, and I remember certain cheesy cash-registers using the same kind of paper tape (about 1981 or so . . .). jeff > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 16:20:13 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Isaac Davis > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Printers > Here's one for the printer books. I had a printer for my atari 800 that we > order out of the DAK catalog. It used a little cartridge shaped like a > bullet with a contact on the end. The printer would fire a spark and > actually burn the dots onto the paper to make the characters. It was > relatively slow, but considering it had to make about 9 passes to form a row > of characters it did pretty well. I can still remember the burning smell > everytime you would print something out. It was really a neat little > printer, and I can't for the life of me figure out why we got rid of it. I > still have the driver disk for it, but the actual name of the thing escapes > me right now. Wait a minute, it was an Olivetti, but I can't remember the > model. The coolest part was turning the lights off when it was printing and > watching the sparks fly across the paper as it printed. That's a printer I > would like to have again. > > Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, > idavis@comland.com | check out the Classic Computer Rescue List - > indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html > > From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jun 12 22:34:52 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: REAL plug&play hardware In-Reply-To: <33A0BCD7.6584@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: 'Aw shoot, the kind of modems we had in the old days were truly user-friendly. I had a Prentice 212 (1200 baud, whoa!), and it would come up with a dialing directory! Just one keystroke to select an entry, and awaaaaaay we go! Of course, it also had commands to dial any number, if it wasn't in memory . . . Jeff P.S. - I think I still have this thing . . . > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 20:21:59 -0700 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Jeff Hellige > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: REAL plug&play hardware > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > I remember showing an undergraduate how it was possible to plug > > a modem into a terminal and dial up to a shell account. He was > > so amazed that the world had been easily fooled into thinking that you > > need a computer to access the Internet :-) > > Tim, > > How true. One of my first experiences with a modem was messing with a > non-Hayes compatible Racal-Vadic with a simple terminal, though I forget > just which terminal it was emulating. Now I occasionally do the > opposite of what you refer to above and hook my Atari ST up to my Amiga > 3000 as a VT-100 terminal for shell processes! > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, > 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, > VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, > Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 > Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong > and Atari 2600VCS game consoles > From BigLouS at aol.com Thu Jun 12 22:27:14 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) Message-ID: <970612220605_-894178726@emout11.mail.aol.com> > At 09:24 AM 6/11/97 -0700, Sam wrote: > >On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, James Willing wrote: > > > >> Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to > develop > >> a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are > >> when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. > >> Or am I just dreaming out loud? > > > >Not at all. This is a terrific idea! I nominate Bill Whitson to > >formulate this list :) I think that we should take this a little more seriously. I propose that we form regional SWAT teams. In the event of a classic computer crisis the nearest SWAT team would be dispatched. Ideally each team would be comprised of individuals who each had a separate area of expertise, i.e. Apple II, Coco, TI, etc. Rescued computers could then be placed in foster homes until caring, loving permanent homes could be found. :-) Lou From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 12 23:14:01 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Zilog PDS 8000 Develpment System, References: <1.5.4.16.19970612184749.096f3fbe@mail.crl.com> <33A0B4AB.77B8@rain.org> Message-ID: <33A0C909.6C0A@rain.org> In my continuing efforts to catalog what I have, I ran across the Zilog PDS 8000 Model 15 Development System. It has dual 8" drives, is heavy :), and looks to be pretty well built. In checking the manuals I have against our "Big List", these Hardware Reference is copyright July 1979 while the dates in the list are 1983/1984. I see the model 11 listed but not the model 15 and the numbering scheme leads me to believe the Model 11 preceeded the Model 15. If so, the dates for the two machines seem to be conflicting. Does anyone have any more info? One other thing, the Hardware Reference title is "Z8000 Develpment Module, Hardware Reference Manual" rather than "Z8000 Development System" and I am *assuming* they are the same. The other manuals (Monitor listing, Linker, and Assembler) are dated from July 1979 through October 1980. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 12 23:22:27 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue List Message-ID: <199706130422.AA15682@world.std.com> > HOWEVER, like other posters to this list, I have a wife that "simply > doesn't understand the value of old computers" and am currently Ha! I am the wife! I control the... Well I don't have that problem other than a KI10 would be out of the question unless "just passing through". ;-) Allison From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 12 23:45:11 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: TI99 In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051DBF66@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2051DBF66@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33a9cf9b.13825226@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:01:27 -0700, you said: >True, that's bizarre... they appear to be especially common in the >northwest. But just try to find a PEB! The closer you get to Texas, the more abundant TI-99 stuff gets. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz Fri Jun 13 00:04:15 1997 From: K.J.Whitehead at massey.ac.nz (Keith Whitehead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: MSX comments.... (Re:) Message-ID: <199706130504.WAA03907@mx3.u.washington.edu> > | WoW! The more I hear about this thing the more I want one. >It's amazing > | that this system was so unknown in the states. It's like >discovering a > | whole new species. > >Yep, I was obviously thrilled when I ran into my Spectravideo 328 in its >original box, for $5 at a local thrift... > >Sorry Sam, didn't mean to gloat there. > >Did I mention it was accompanied by the cassette drive in its original >box too? > >Kai Me too...well not in original boxes but I do have one with monitor (TV+modulator?) disk drives, cassette deck,software,CPM 3 (?) etc that I got for eqiv US$12. The only thing is that it intermittantly resets itsself and I have not had a chance to look at ti since I got the thing, I also got a set of boards from a cromenco s100 system for nothing :-) 2 TRS80 model 3s (which I can hopefully get 1 working) $0 1 TRS80 model 4P (Repaired phase locked loop circuit in video) $0 1 Sinclair Z88 with MacLink ROM installed $4 1 Sinclair ZX 81 not going $0 2 Sinclair QL's with 1 mono monitor $0 1 Apple ][e with drives and UHF TV/Monitor $9 1 Kaypro 4 a couple of years back for $30 1 Kaypro 10 (fitted new HD ) for $0 1 ALTOS 8088 Unix based system supposedly in working condition (yet to try) $20 1 IBM PC $0 1 IBM XT $0 1 VT100 terminal $0 and soon to arrive is 2 TRS80 model 1 1 TRS80 model 3 1 TRS80 model 4D 1 Dicksmith Systems 80 1 Amstrad 464 1 Amstrad PCW8256 and I'm on the scent of Apple Lisa Amstrad PC Clone Amstrad monitor (suits the 464/664/6128) Commodore 64 Commodore PET Atari 800 Sinclair spectrum Sinclair ZX80 (kit set..maybe unbuilt !) PDP 11 (model unknown) Microvax (dead PSU) However I would like to acquire Jupiter Ace (forth based machine) Commodore SX64 Any Bondwell CPM machines Cheers and good hunting +----------- Keith Whitehead -----------+ | Physics and Chemistry Depts | | Massey University | | Palmerston North | | New Zealand | | | | Ph +64 6 350-5074 Fax +64 6 354-0207 | +------------------------------------------+ From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 13 00:10:08 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: IBM Transporter References: Message-ID: <33A0D630.19BB@rain.org> In looking at Bill's collection on the Web, I noticed a reference to the IBM Transporter. I found a card that had those words on it and am curious what this thing is, what it does, is software required, etc. Thanks. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 13 00:09:09 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Rescue list -> was PDP 11/34... In-Reply-To: <970612220605_-894178726@emout11.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970612220909.00fb9f78@agora.rdrop.com> At 11:27 PM 6/12/97 -0400, you wrote: >> At 09:24 AM 6/11/97 -0700, Sam wrote: >> >On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, James Willing wrote: >> > >> >> Mayhaps, as a parallel to the 'Classic Computer Index", we need to >> develop >> >> a 'Classic Computer Collectors Index' so that we know where others are >> >> when things like this pop up so that we could have some local options. > >> >> Or am I just dreaming out loud? > >I think that we should take this a little more seriously. I propose that we >form regional SWAT teams. In the event of a classic computer crisis the >nearest SWAT team would be dispatched. Ideally each team would be comprised >of individuals who each had a separate area of expertise, i.e. Apple II, >Coco, TI, etc. Rescued computers could then be placed in foster homes until >caring, loving permanent homes could be found. :-) Lets just not start setting limits on it tho... While there is value in having people involved who are familiar with the equipment, keep in mind that a basic understanding of the gear and some common sense goes a long way. I would hate to see an older system (like minis) fall by the wayside because someone thought they were not 'qualified' to recover/move/disassemble it! -jim ("I've created a 'Finster'") --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 13 00:20:53 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205215BE4@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205215BE4@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33aad820.16006298@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Tue, 10 Jun 1997 14:56:49 -0700, you said: >The 99/4A DIN video pinout is (format in monospace for best >readability): > >3 1 > 5 4 > 2 > >where (and no, I didn't write these descriptions, they're pretty >bizarre. I typed them verbatim; if anyone can shed some light on these, >let us know): > >1. "12v vid" >2. R-Y (colorburst clock) >3. Audio out >4. Y >5. B-Y (ext video input?) >U. Ground That's the PAL (non-U.S. NTSC) version, I believe. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From scott at walde.cprompt.sk.ca Fri Jun 13 01:00:42 1997 From: scott at walde.cprompt.sk.ca (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 13 Jun 1997 05:20:53 GMT." <33aad820.16006298@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199706130600.AAA23305@walde.cprompt.sk.ca> > if anyone can shed some light on these, let us know): > > 1. "12v vid" > 2. R-Y (colorburst clock) Red - (minus) Yellow > >3. Audio out > >4. Y Yellow > >5. B-Y (ext video input?) Blue - yellow > >U. Ground Just a different way to send an 'RGB' signal. I'm not sure what the merit is of sending it this way... any video techs out there? I'll cc this to one who might know. ttfn srw From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Fri Jun 13 01:08:03 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) In-Reply-To: <970612220605_-894178726@emout11.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > I think that we should take this a little more seriously. I propose that we > form regional SWAT teams. In the event of a classic computer crisis the > nearest SWAT team would be dispatched. Ideally each team would be comprised > of individuals who each had a separate area of expertise, i.e. Apple II, > Coco, TI, etc. Rescued computers could then be placed in foster homes until > caring, loving permanent homes could be found. :-) > > Lou > And if we caught anybody throwing anything out we'd jump out of the back of the van and beat them senseless (and then pick their stuff out of the trash) LeS From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Fri Jun 13 01:18:52 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: MSX comments.... (Re:) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > Actually, to make a few clarifications, as far as I know, on the above > questions and answers. MSX does NOT stand for Microsoft Extended. That > basically was a bad rumor. The MSX was an attempt and a world-wide > standardization of computers by several companies. I'm not quite sure if > MSX-DOS was format compatible with MS-DOS.... I don't think it was. > Well all my info (right or not) came from an '84 issue of Compute. > And, finally, this project (the MSX) did NOT fail miserably. In the United > States, teh MSX did fail miserably... but mainly because of the fact that > it was not widely marketed here. The MSX was VERY popular in Asia and, I > believe, in Europe. To tell you the truth it still is! I happen to be a > fan of the MSX, and can to you the quality of the many, many, game titles > for it are quite similar to that of first Nintendo Entertainment System. Well I didn't say that it sucked or anything... I just said that it failed miserably... > Many of the games were sold on both platforms.... such as Metal Gear, > Donkey Kong, Dig-Dug, F-16 Fighting Falcon, Frogger, Galaga, The Goonies, > Zelda, Thexder, Zaxxon, etc., etc. A large manufacturer of game software > for the MSX was Konami, and world-wide leading game manufacturer. So, that > should let you know about some fo the MSX capabilities. Well I personally have never been a fan of "Computer Standardization." Sure, now we can all shop at the same stores (except for the Mac/Amiga diehards) and don't really have to port crap anymore, but if you ask me, it takes all the fun out of it. How fun would it be if we all drove the same car? (Well mine has air conditioning! Well mines got air and leather etc. etc.) Boy it's late... Les From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Fri Jun 13 01:20:02 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Filling in the holes... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Cool! I want one of these. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass GET IN LINE! ME FIRST!!!!! Sheesh.... see if I ever open MY big mouth again... ;) Les From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Fri Jun 13 02:34:32 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Filling in the holes... References: <1.5.4.16.19970612184825.422fe444@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: <33A0F808.FF5@ndirect.co.uk> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 01:32 AM 6/12/97 -0400, you wrote: > >- I'd like a MSX machine as well (never even seen one in anything other > >than magazine articles) > > I *sorta* have an MSX machine. It was donated to ABACUS, the Atari Bay Area > Computer Users Society, but isn't of much interest to the club. So it sits > in my garage (or attic?). One of these days, I'll get around to making a > suitable cash donation to the club and move it in with my collection. > > In the meantime, if anyone wants any info or anything, let me know and I'll > dig it up... > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ I ahve MANY MSX machine for sale (probably one for each manufacturer) but I'd rather swap/trade them for something I am looking. I am lookingfor a T/S1500, Original TRS-80, IBM Junior (Peanut). Any taker? Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jun 13 09:15:08 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <9705138662.AA866218833@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > > if anyone can shed some light on these, let us know): > > > > 1. "12v vid" > > 2. R-Y (colorburst clock) > > Red - (minus) Yellow > > > >3. Audio out > > >4. Y > > Yellow > > > >5. B-Y (ext video input?) > > Blue - yellow > > > >U. Ground > > Just a different way to send an 'RGB' signal. I'm not sure what the merit is > of sending it this way... any video techs out there? I'll cc this to one who > might know. Um... No. Sorry. Close though. Y is not yellow, i'm afraid. These signals derive from the way luminance and chrominance are handled in a telly. Y is intensity (luminance). It is made up of red, green and blue in the rough proportions that generate intensity in a human eye. This is the only part of the signal that a black and white telly (or greyscale monitor) would decode. The other two signals are the quadrature components of chrominance. They are derived from Y by subtracting red and blue, and are normally called U and V (in some order). The colour telly receives U and V phase modulated onto a subcarrier (I think). The hue control on American tellies sets the baseline against which phase is measured here. (In Europe, the PAL system reverses the phase each line, so any hue errors should cancel out) The signals are transmitted this way in broadcast TV to ensure compatibility between colour and BW tellies. They are also the signals that would normally be sent to a TV (UHF or VHF) modulator from the computer, hence their presence on the video connector. Hope this helps! I could be more specific if I had some of my reference books from home... Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bloedem Volke unverstaendlich treiben wir des Lebens Spiel. Grade das, was unabwendlich fruchtet unserm Spott als Ziel. Magst es Kinder-Rache nennen an des Daseins tiefem Ernst; Wirst das Leben besser kennen, wenn du uns verstehen lernst. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 13 05:01:02 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: [re; CoCo Max cartridge] > The cartridge is a high-resolution joystick interface that worked with > (if you had a Multi-pak Interface) the CoCo-Max drawing program. Mine > was stolen ten years ago, but it was a very nice system. Doh! I guess I was thinking with my Amiga-influenced mind when I assumed "hi-res" would be directly graphics related. Were the standard joysticks from Radio Shack not hi-res enough to use for drawing? > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 13 05:10:05 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970609231610.0069daec@post.keme.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, steve wrote: > CPM DISKS Easy Download em from the net, make a 1541 lead to connect the > 1541 to PC its in the DOX on C64s Emulator, Use a util on the PC called > Star Commander and copy stright to a real 1541. Easy!!! If you need more > info Mail ME.. Of course this all assumes that I *have* a PC. However, if the CP/M disks simply contain files and don't use the normal CP/M disk structure, I can transfer the files via the parallel<->user port cable I have. Otherwise I guess I'll have to write a disk image transfer program using the modem like I did with the Apple ][. (I don't know how to do the programming for the parallel cable, and phone cable is pysically much easier to set up as I don't have to move any machines.) I have to get the hardware to work before I worry about disks, though. > Steve > Emulator BBS > 01284 760851 > Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Fri Jun 13 05:34:02 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: looking for info on tape drive In-Reply-To: <199706130106.AA22682@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > Cipher model st150s-II 6150? cartridge tape drive scsi interface. Overland Data (800.424.7437) bought Cipher sometime in the late 80s. Conner (800.526.6637) bought Overland's cartridge tape business shortly thereafter. Now, Conner is no longer extant, and Seagate offers support on their hardware. Jumpers are thus: J5 : : 1 2 1- Self test 2- auto-loading (in = disabled) J4 : : : : : 1 2 3 4 5 1- termination power (in = bus supplies; out = drive supplies) 2- parity (in = enabled) 3- ID 4 4- ID 2 5- ID 1 I think I still have some of the smaller, mechanical parts lying about for spares. ok -r From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 13 05:47:21 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > The ///'s monitor isn't identical to the ]['s monitor. That's why I was > > asking. > > Yeah, you're right. I found this out after finally booting my /// up for > the first time. No wonder the /// flopped. They changed a good thing. > They fixed what wasn't broken. Lame-o's. I felt the same way when the folks at Commodore removed the "debug" menu from Workbench. :) Yeah, the Apple ][ monitor is a very cool and useful thing, and that kind of functionality is something I miss from most other computers. Of course I grew up using a ][. Had I used an Atari 800 instead, I'd probably find most other systems inadequate in some different way. :) > > Do you know what kind of battery it's supposed to take? (And why they put > > it in such an inaccessible place on the motherboard?) > > I haven't torn my /// apart yet. If I find out before you do, I'll let > you in on the secret. I had mine apart again tonight, mainly to look at the power supply. At some point during my numerous flips of the machine upside-down, a paper clip fell out from somewhere. I really hope it was from the keyboard. All I can report is that the PS makes no noise when there's no load on it, apart from the usual high-pitched squealing that many electronic devices make. I didn't look at the place where the battery goes to see if there were any clues. I haven't fully removed the motherboard because I have to disconnect a few cables, and I was mainly inside to pull the power supply out. I noticed that the cable that leads to the external floppy port has been badly crushed between the cast iron frame and the metal sheet that holds the motherboard, though. I'll have to remove it to see if any of the wires have been broken. :/ > > > > Can the /// emulate a ][? > > > > > > Yes it can, but you need the emulation system disk. > > > > Cool! Not that I need another ][, I just think it's good that they > > allowed this kind of functionality. Though I suppose, in a way, they felt > > they had to. > > Let me know if you need the system disks. I can send you some. I do need the system disks. I didn't get them with the machine. I wish there was some way to transfer them electronically, though... which is why I asked if there was a way of getting an Apple ][ to access a ///'s disks. I suppose the ///'s drive is double-sided, though. Send the disks to: Doug Spence 85 Devon Road Baie d'Urfe, Que. CANADA H9X 2X3 (I guess I don't have my config set up right - PINE won't accept my accented characters.) Thanks, and let me know if there's anything I can do in return. > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jun 13 12:05:29 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <9705138662.AA866229096@compsci.powertech.co.uk> In my previous message I wrote (re: meanings of video signals), > The other two signals are the quadrature components of chrominance. > They are derived from Y by subtracting red and blue, and are normally > called U and V (in some order). > > The colour telly receives U and V phase modulated onto a subcarrier (I > think). The hue control on American tellies sets the baseline against > which phase is measured here. (In Europe, the PAL system reverses the > phase each line, so any hue errors should cancel out) Before someone like Tony jumps down my throat, U and V are _amplitude_ modulated onto the subcarrier, in quadrature with one another. Thus the phase of the subcarrier gives the hue, and its amplitude the saturation. I hope you are not any more confused than before :-) Philip. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 13 06:23:38 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:21 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts In-Reply-To: <339E3F05.1979@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > NOTE: the Commodore CP/M Cart is only usable on the oldest of the 64s > (usually models with the 5-pin DIN plug for video. It would seem that > when Commodore debugged some video problems they tweaked the system > speed slightly which made the CP/M cartridge unusable. That's annoying. All of my C64s are the 8-pin variety. (I've actually been selecting them that way. :) ) Hopefully the Data 20 cart doesn't suffer the same problem as the Commodore cart. > Are you sure the plug isn't for some sort of video cable contraption? > (the Data-20 carts usually sported an 80 column composite video output.) Well, it does have two 5-pin female connectors on the back, which would be for the video. The other connector looks like the typical power connector for an external modem, but I suppose it could be a composite out for use with a weirdo cable. Time to open it I suppose. > Larry Anderson > -- > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ > Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From bwit at pobox.com Fri Jun 13 05:56:43 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: TI99 Message-ID: <01BC77C7.DDF43E60@ppp-151-164-41-161.rcsntx.swbell.net> >>True, that's bizarre... they appear to be especially common in the >>northwest. But just try to find a PEB! >The closer you get to Texas, the more abundant TI-99 stuff gets. So true! I worked for TI in Dallas at the time of the big selloff. I remember buying several consoles for $25, a PEB for $20, several monitors for $50, and catridges for $.50 each. All brand new in boxes. What a madhouse it was. Bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1476 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970613/5286a732/attachment-0001.bin From classicjr at juno.com Fri Jun 13 10:49:21 1997 From: classicjr at juno.com (Jeffrey G. Rottman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: No New issues being received? References: <199706070702.AAA03643@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19970613.074951.7759.0.classicjr@juno.com> I haven't received any new issues of the Classic Computer mailings since June 7th. Is there anything wrong? This has happened before, maybe it's my mail provider. Should I sign off and re-register as a new member of the list? From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 13 09:12:30 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > Add to that the Gorilla-Banana - 1 pin printing at it's finest! And > probably the dumbest name I've ever seen on a piece of computer > equipment. Ah yes, it bears a remarkable resemblance to my Radio Shack DMP-100. I know that Axion sold them, can't recall the model number. But this old DMP-100 is the most appropriate printer I've got for the 4k non-Extended Color BASIC Color Computer. Wish I had my old MX-80 with the bootleg Graftrax ROM. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From scott at walde.cprompt.sk.ca Fri Jun 13 09:45:48 1997 From: scott at walde.cprompt.sk.ca (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:15:08 -0000." <9705138662.AA866218833@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <199706131445.IAA25125@walde.cprompt.sk.ca> > Um... No. Sorry. Close though. [snip] > The other two signals are the quadrature components of chrominance. > They are derived from Y by subtracting red and blue, and are normally > called U and V (in some order). Aha! YUV is something I recognize now. I believe this is what broadcast professionals call component video. (Let's see if I'll be right one out of two.) > The signals are transmitted this way in broadcast TV to ensure > compatibility between colour and BW tellies. They are also the signals > that would normally be sent to a TV (UHF or VHF) modulator from the > computer, hence their presence on the video connector. Hmmm... any modulator I've ever worked on had a composite input. Is this maybe more common in European systems? > Hope this helps! I could be more specific if I had some of my reference > books from home... Specific enough for me. Thanks. > Philip. ttfn srw From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 13 09:49:04 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970613075315.2a077a1a@RICOCHET.net> At 04:20 PM 6/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >Here's one for the printer books. I had a printer for my atari 800 that we >order out of the DAK catalog. It used a little cartridge shaped like a >bullet with a contact on the end. The printer would fire a spark and >actually burn the dots onto the paper to make the characters. It was Actually, it was an InkJet... I think I still have some of the ink cartridges around somewhere. (I was paranoid that I might not be able to find more when I ran out, so I bought a whole bunch.) The sparks were to convince the ink to jump onto the page, I think. >me right now. Wait a minute, it was an Olivetti, but I can't remember the It was indeed an Olivetti, but I too have forgotten the model. >would like to have again. Me too. I remember demoing mine for ABACUS, the Atari Bay Area Computer Users Society. That thing is what made it possible for me to pass English in college! (I loathe the physical act of writing, so I never did any work, until I could type it up on my 600xl (and later, 800) and print it out.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 13 09:51:21 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > [re; CoCo Max cartridge] > > The cartridge is a high-resolution joystick interface that worked with > > (if you had a Multi-pak Interface) the CoCo-Max drawing program. Mine > > was stolen ten years ago, but it was a very nice system. > > Were the standard joysticks from Radio Shack not hi-res enough to use for > drawing? The same joysticks were used, though the Deluxe type were better -- the CoCo Max interface was realy good "fine tuning", it read and interpreted the position better. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 13 09:49:08 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: REAL plug&play hardware Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970613075319.2a07ce88@RICOCHET.net> At 03:16 PM 6/12/97 -0800, you wrote: >I remember showing an undergraduate how it was possible to plug >a modem into a terminal and dial up to a shell account. He was >so amazed that the world had been easily fooled into thinking that you >need a computer to access the Internet :-) The San Francisco Public Library has terminals (DEC VT220's?) in every library. My girlfriend was impressed when I used Lynx to telnet to my account to check mail one day... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From kyrrin at wizards.net Fri Jun 13 09:49:01 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: FREE to good home! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970613074901.00f75990@mail.wizards.net> Well, darn it, I tried, but I just can't get the silly thing to work! Ok... first volunteer who feels like visiting Kent, WA (yes, Bill, that's a big hint, especially since I CC'd you on this... ) can have this beast. It's an STC/StorageTek 9-track tape drive, model 2921. When working, it can do 1600 and 6250 (GCR), sits in a standard 19" rack, has a Pertec interface, and weighs about 100 lbs. or so. Notice I say 'when working.' I tried to get it to going, but it seems to have a sick CPU card. I kind of hate to get rid of it, but I need the space more than I do the drive and a new CPU card was quoted as being around $800 (yikes! My skylight blinds are going to cost that much!) Come to think of it, if anyone's got a working dual-density drive that they feel like getting rid of, I would love to know about it. ;-) Thanks in advance. E-mail or call me at (253) 639-9555 for details. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 13 10:02:43 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > Y' know, I seems to me that some of these 'sparky' dot matrix > printers used aluminized "thermal" paper. I used to have a stack of > old machine runs on such paper, and I remember certain cheesy > cash-registers using the same kind of paper tape (about 1981 or so . Yeah, that was the mechanism on the TRS-80 Quick Printer and Quick Printer 2 and the Screen Printer. When I had the Quick Printer 2, I always turned off the lights when I LLISTed. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jun 13 16:03:05 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Comments Message-ID: <9705138662.AA866243312@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > Aha! YUV is something I recognize now. I believe this is what broadcast > professionals call component video. (Let's see if I'll be right one out of > two.) > > > The signals are transmitted this way in broadcast TV to ensure > > compatibility between colour and BW tellies. They are also the signals > > that would normally be sent to a TV (UHF or VHF) modulator from the > > computer, hence their presence on the video connector. > > Hmmm... any modulator I've ever worked on had a composite input. Is this > maybe more common in European systems? Hmm. I'm getting out of my depth at this point. I've not dealt in detail with many colour modulators but I recall the Sinclair Spectrum had YUV as opposed to RGB on its expansion port. The computer obviously uses RGB internally (although I don't see why one couldn't design a machine to do YUV instead!) and it has to be converted to YUV at some stage in the modulation process. My guess (no evidence to back this up) is that the more expensive modulators - the ones one is likely to be able to buy for one's own projects - accept composite, but many mass-producing manufacturers got away with a cheaper modulator by putting the conversion in the (custom) chip in the video circuitry. Philip. From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Fri Jun 13 10:04:07 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706131504.KAA29375@fudge.uchicago.edu> Doug Spence said, > I do need the system disks. I didn't get them with the machine. I wish > there was some way to transfer them electronically, though... which is why > I asked if there was a way of getting an Apple ][ to access a ///'s disks. > I suppose the ///'s drive is double-sided, though. Actually, no, the ][ and /// disks are the same 140k format. In fact, the SOS file system on the /// is the same as was later adopted for ProDOS on the ][ series. eric From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 13 10:40:52 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > > > I think that we should take this a little more seriously. I propose that we > > form regional SWAT teams. > > And if we caught anybody throwing anything out we'd jump out of the back > of the van and beat them senseless (and then pick their stuff out of the > trash) Actually, just call in the 'Narn Bat Squad' to deal with them while we clear the gear. < B5 B^} > -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From zmerch at northernway.net Fri Jun 13 11:28:33 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Listservers... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970613122833.009dd610@mail.northernway.net> Bill: You have a great listserver here, and I'm glad I've subscribed. I'm going to assume (and yes, I know the consequences ) that advertising a special-interest listserve is o.k. provided it's within the realm of this list. Well, they are. I have started two listservers, one of which used to be *very* popular in it's heyday (which, unforch, has passed it seems) and the other solely because there wasn't one. The first is a replacement for Andrew Diller's Model 100/102/200 listserve, and one can subscribe by going to the web page at: http://home.northernway.net/~zmerch/signupform.html or sending an e-mail to m100-request@list.northernway.net with "subscribe" (no quotes) in the _Subject:_ of the message. To send messages to the list, e-mail m100@list.northernway.net. The second is my own creation, because there was no Tandy Model 600 listserver. It can be accessed thru it's web page at: http://home.northernway.net/~zmerch/signupm600.html or sending an e-mail to m600-request@list.northernway.net with "subscribe" (no quotes) in the _Subject:_ of the message. To send messages to the list, e-mail m600@list.northernway.net. I don't have to mention to anyone just how wonderful these lists can be for information... If you're interested in these machines, come on in and join the fun! Thanks for the bandwidth, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 13 11:29:29 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > I noticed that the cable that leads to the external floppy port has been > badly crushed between the cast iron frame and the metal sheet that holds > the motherboard, though. I'll have to remove it to see if any of the > wires have been broken. :/ My internal floppy seems to be hosed. I can't boot any disks off of it. Some bgin to boot but then go to error, others invoke this horrendous recalibration that never ends. I assume the drive head is dirty and the speed needs calibrating. I wonder if I can calibrate this drive like one can the Disk ][? > I do need the system disks. I didn't get them with the machine. I wish > there was some way to transfer them electronically, though... which is why > I asked if there was a way of getting an Apple ][ to access a ///'s disks. > I suppose the ///'s drive is double-sided, though. Doug, if you want I can e-mail NuFX (ShrinkIt) images to you. This would be the quickest way for you to get them. You'd need an Apple // running shrinkit of course. The disk format between the // and /// is identical. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jun 13 11:54:09 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: IBM Transporter Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2052B7281@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> You can find the info on http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ :) Kai > ---------- > From: Marvin[SMTP:marvin@rain.org] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 1997 10:10 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: IBM Transporter > > In looking at Bill's collection on the Web, I noticed a reference to > the > IBM Transporter. I found a card that had those words on it and am > curious what this thing is, what it does, is software required, etc. > Thanks. > From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jun 13 11:55:29 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2052B7285@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | And if we caught anybody throwing anything out we'd jump out of the back | of the van and beat them senseless (and then pick their stuff out of the | trash) | LeS No need for violence... we'll just go to their house and throw out their Pentium :) Kai From zmerch at northernway.net Fri Jun 13 12:05:55 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: (fwd) PDP 11/34...more info (fwd) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2052B7285@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970613130555.00a3de60@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Kai Kaltenbach said: > | And if we caught anybody throwing anything out we'd jump out >of the back > | of the van and beat them senseless (and then pick their stuff >out of the > | trash) > | LeS > >No need for violence... we'll just go to their house and throw out their >Pentium :) >Kai No... you've got that wrong... we'll go to their house and *steal* their Pentium, so that we can sell it on the black market for money to buy more classic computers with!!!! ;^> "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Fri Jun 13 12:29:39 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > Wish I had my old MX-80 with the bootleg Graftrax ROM. I'm just curious, but what's special about the MX-80? I had one for a very long time myself (come to think of it, I don't actually remember what happened to it...) that I believe was a 'Graftrax Plus', but I don't have any idea what that was all about. It was my father's, he bought it for his TRS-80. Somehow, I ended up with an MX-100 (the wide-carriage version) that I bet is still lying about at my parents' place, and you all have piqued my interest. ok -r From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 13 13:28:40 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ray Stricklin wrote: > On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > > Wish I had my old MX-80 with the bootleg Graftrax ROM. > I'm just curious, but what's special about the MX-80? > > I had one for a very long time myself (come to think of it, I don't > actually remember what happened to it...) that I believe was a 'Graftrax > Plus', but I don't have any idea what that was all about. It was my > father's, he bought it for his TRS-80. Well, there were a few years where the Epson MX-80 was the standard printer against which all others were compared. This beast of mine was one of the early models, from before bit-image graphics became standard issue -- its base character set included the TRS-80 block graphics characters, actually. My mother-in-law scored a bootleg copy of the Graftrax ROM upgrade from a coworker at Hughes Aircraft. That gave the printer the capability to print bit image graphics as is taken for granted nowadays. It was slow. It was noisy. It used only tractor paper. Its near- letter-quality text wasn't even close. And the bastard ran for year after year. My ex-wife probably still has it. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 13 13:33:36 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Classic Computers to Save? References: <3.0.1.32.19970613074901.00f75990@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: <33A19280.6D4D@rain.org> I just got back from checking out several places here in Sanata Barbara where machines are being sold. First, there are a number of SpectraGraphics DS1080 machines along with some good size terminals, keyboards, etc. I am not familiar with the units but the guy indicated this was a workstation assembly. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll get back to him. I *think* there were about four of the DS1080 machines, at least a couple large monitors (19" or so RGB I think), some keyboards, perhaps some type of digitizing pad (not sure about this), and I didn't see any docs or software with it. He indicated he would be quite happy with $100 for the lot. My guess is that the lot weighs probably about 300 pounds or so. He indicated this was used as a CAD system. Second, there is an NCR PC-8 Xenix machine with some software, monitor, and several keyboards. I might end up trying to get it since I don't have one in the collection but if someone else is interested, let me know. My guess is that the lot weighs in at about 100 pounds or so. While I forgot to ask the price on this, he would most likely be more than happy with $30 - $50 for the lot. Thirdly, he had three or four Apple IIC's along with a bit of documentation, one of the Imagewriters, and perhaps some a little bit of other stuff I missed. Total weight is probably about 50 - 75 pounds, and he would take $20 each or probably $40 - $50 for the lot. Each of the first three Apples had either one or two external floppy disk drives with them. Finally, I went over to a local rummage sale and there was a bunch of Commodore stuff primarily C64s, documentation, some Apple docs, and some printers. This will be over this afternoon about 3PM PST so I will show up about 2:30 to see what I can haul away :). I will most likely just pick it up what is left just to save it from the dumpster but most of what I saw, I already have. Total weight was probably about 100 pounds including documentation. I did pick up the some of the docs and there are duplicate Apple II and IIe manuals. The first three items may or may not be sold this weekend to someone from Los Angeles. However, being here does give me an advantage :), so if anyone is interested in anything here, let me know! From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 13 13:40:46 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Computer History Assn of Calif. Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970613114501.361fcfc2@ricochet.net> At 07:47 PM 6/12/97 -0700, you wrote: >I noticed their web page and it looks like a pretty good collection! >One thing I didn't see there was information about how it got started, >who was involved, what kind of a group it is, etc. Can you help out and >fill in the blanks? Thanks! Okay, let me put in a disclaimer that a) I have a horrible memory and b) I'm not super involved in the day-to-day stuff (I've spent the last 2 years dealing with the passing of my mother and taking care of my father among other disasters -- the best thing in the last two years has been having to have my entire sewer system replaced because of tree roots completely clogging it.) (Oh, and a general disclaimer that I really don't know as much as people seem to think I do.) Anyway, what happened is Kip Crosby realized that much of our history was disappearing as companies tossed their old, non-pc systems in favor of Gateway 2000's et al. I think this came about because he replaced Brenda (his older, multi-user micro (IMS? something like that)) with PC's. Being a realist, however, he decided to concentrate on California computers only (A daunting task in and of itself). I think he hoped to see other orgs covering other areas in the future. I knew Kip from eons ago (early 80's) when we were on a couple of Fido BBS's. He rang me and a couple others up and we got together, tossed around the ideas. He got going on it, and I signed on as Secretary. I must admit, though, that I kinda left most of it in his capable hands. (I trust him to do it right.) The focus (from what I see) right now is research and the Analytical Engine (the magazine). Also, collecting/cataloging classic computers. Right now, the collection (which I'm pretty sure is not fully represented on the web pages) exists in a bunch of containers in San Jose. There are plans for a museum at some point, as well as exhibits. The coup d'grace (is that the right word?) for CHAC was saving the SDS 930 from Colorado. This is a Mainframe built in (IIRC) 1963 here in California. It was then sent to Colorado for NASA? to use, and ended up doing something with Weather. It was in use up to a few years ago, and was going to be scrapped, but Kip worked his tail off to save it and bring it out here where it will become the centerpiece of the assn's displays. Hmmm... Perhaps I should pass this on to Kip himself before I pass on too much misinformation... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Jun 13 14:11:51 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Classic Computers to Save? Message-ID: <199706131909.OAA15546@challenge.sunflower.com> Im still looking for a plain Apple][, and an Apple//e platinum, the one with the numeric keypad on the side, please check if they have any of either of these, as I need them for my collection. ---------- > From: Marvin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Classic Computers to Save? > Date: Friday, June 13, 1997 1:33 PM > > I just got back from checking out several places here in Sanata Barbara > where machines are being sold. > > First, there are a number of SpectraGraphics DS1080 machines along with > some good size terminals, keyboards, etc. I am not familiar with the > units but the guy indicated this was a workstation assembly. If anyone > is interested, let me know and I'll get back to him. I *think* there > were about four of the DS1080 machines, at least a couple large monitors > (19" or so RGB I think), some keyboards, perhaps some type of digitizing > pad (not sure about this), and I didn't see any docs or software with > it. He indicated he would be quite happy with $100 for the lot. My > guess is that the lot weighs probably about 300 pounds or so. He > indicated this was used as a CAD system. > > Second, there is an NCR PC-8 Xenix machine with some software, monitor, > and several keyboards. I might end up trying to get it since I don't > have one in the collection but if someone else is interested, let me > know. My guess is that the lot weighs in at about 100 pounds or so. > While I forgot to ask the price on this, he would most likely be more > than happy with $30 - $50 for the lot. > > Thirdly, he had three or four Apple IIC's along with a bit of > documentation, one of the Imagewriters, and perhaps some a little bit of > other stuff I missed. Total weight is probably about 50 - 75 pounds, > and he would take $20 each or probably $40 - $50 for the lot. Each of > the first three Apples had either one or two external floppy disk drives > with them. > > Finally, I went over to a local rummage sale and there was a bunch of > Commodore stuff primarily C64s, documentation, some Apple docs, and some > printers. This will be over this afternoon about 3PM PST so I will show > up about 2:30 to see what I can haul away :). I will most likely just > pick it up what is left just to save it from the dumpster but most of > what I saw, I already have. Total weight was probably about 100 pounds > including documentation. I did pick up the some of the docs and there > are duplicate Apple II and IIe manuals. > > The first three items may or may not be sold this weekend to someone > from Los Angeles. However, being here does give me an advantage :), so > if anyone is interested in anything here, let me know! From groberts at mitre.org Fri Jun 13 14:38:13 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: A trip back in time in Boston Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970613153813.007d0850@mail90> Opens tomorrow. Should be fun!: "Boston, MA (May 23) - On June 14, 1997, The Computer Museum re-creates the dawn of the PC age through a lifesize reconstruction of a 1970s' hacker's garage and vintage personal computing artifacts. ... The Museum draws on artifacts from its rich collection, including an Apple I and Altair 8800, to recall the garages of 1970s' hobbyists who assembled "homebrew" computers ... Rich in period detail, the "garage" is cluttered with an oscilloscope, a ham radio, an old TV tube, 1970s' issues of Byte magazine, a drum set, a guitar and photos of Mick Jagger and the Beatles. The relics - including two early personal computers and two video games - recall a pivotal time when computers began to serve as consumer items ..." for the full article see: http://www.tcm.org/info/press/wpr-hgarage.html - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From pcoad at crl.com Fri Jun 13 15:44:02 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Kaypro 2 For sale Message-ID: Found this in comp.os.cpm. It is on the wrong side of the country for me. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html Reply-To: Stephen Griswold Sender: CPM-L Mailing List From: Stephen Griswold Organization: Micromint/Circuit Cellar, Inc. Subject: fwd: Kaypro 2 For sale Lines: 28 Xref: nnrp1.crl.com comp.os.cpm:15835 * Originally By: Calvin Krusen (Local BBS) * Originally To: All * Originally Re: Kaypro 2 For sale * Original Area: General Interest While cleaning the basement of the company I work for, I found a Kaypro 2 "portable" PC. Its blue with an integrated 5" green monitor and two 5-1/4" disk drives. On power up, it tries to boot from one of the drives and displays a message on the display to insert system disk. I'm not looking for any money for it, just a good home. It weighs about 27 lbs, so you would have to pick up the shipping from Warrington, PA (just outside Philadelphia). I'll give one week for responses then it goes in the trash. Email me direct at ckrusen@erols.com or call me at my place of work\ 215/343-6600 x122. Calvin Krusen +++++++++++++++++++++++ Director of Engineering MEECO Inc. Warrington, PA 18976 215/343-6600 x122 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-End forward-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 -- end of forwarded message -- From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 13 15:56:15 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: I have a question about the value of an IMSAI 8080. Say someone had a nice, working IMSAI 8080 in decent condition. How much, realistically, could one expect to sell this for? Say someone had an IMSAI 8080, in pieces, the working condition being unknown. How much, realistically, could one expect to sell this for? Now I have a question about a Victor-9000. Victor 9000, working...how much? Victor 9000, bad floppy controller...how much? Thanks! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From chemif at mbox.queen.it Fri Jun 13 16:39:33 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <199706132139.XAA03607@mbox.queen.it> While Isaac Davis wrote: Wait a minute, it was an Olivetti, but I can't remember the >> model. The coolest part was turning the lights off when it was printing and >> watching the sparks fly across the paper as it printed. That's a printer I >> would like to have again. At 21:28 12/06/97 -0600, Jeff wrote: >Y' know, I seems to me that some of these 'sparky' dot matrix >printers used aluminized "thermal" paper. No Jeff, this Olivetti "sparkling" system was different and was not using thermal-conductive (=aluminium) paper (at least the one I know); was a real DRY INK JET. The "bullet-shaped" cartridge was containing the DRY INK (a sort of TONER) and a high-voltage electric field was made between the rubber(but conductive) roll, and the head. In this way the particles of positive electrically charged toner is "aimed" to go against the negative charged roll, but in between there is the paper (common paper), so the electricity pass, but ink stay. >I used to have a stack of >old machine runs on such paper, and I remember certain cheesy >cash-registers using the same kind of paper tape (about 1981 or so . also this DRY system was widely used by Olivetti on desktop financial calculator (I have one working) and cash-registers I think that the system was good for those applications (fast,quite silent,working on common paper instead thermal and..yes,cool in the dark) but the problem was the powder spread all around the printing bay of the machine, so when bubble jet came out... Sorry for my instinctive and not-checked english. Ciao Riccardo ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL. NUMBER* where*=asterisk key | for help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html TELEX:551132 CHEMIF I ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From BigLouS at aol.com Fri Jun 13 11:23:08 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: 5 1/2" Drives Message-ID: <970613122255_-561580065@emout12.mail.aol.com> Thanks. Lou From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Fri Jun 13 22:36:06 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: For Trade/Sale References: Message-ID: <33A211A6.5A94@unix.aardvarkol.com> I have the following for trade/sale if anyone is interested: 1) Atari 800 with non-working IndusGT disk drive. The drive powers up, but gives an error code '113'. The 800 has 48k, includes both the PSU for the 800 and the IndusGT, the Atari Basic cartridge, drive data cable, and a copy of any Atari 8bit DOS' I have. The 800 is an earlier version with the thumb latches on the expansion cover. For an interesting enough trade, I could likely be persuaded to part with one of my two working IndusGT's, original carrying case included. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, XE System, Coleco Adam, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, TI-99/4A, Sinclair ZX-81, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, Model 4, and Model 4P. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From danjo at xnet.com Fri Jun 13 18:44:37 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Dan and Joanne Tucker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: (fwd) Old System and Parts For Sale Message-ID: <199706132344.SAA26558@xnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1168 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970613/6b1b7d6f/attachment-0001.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 13 21:42:38 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 13, 97 01:56:15 pm Message-ID: <9706140142.AA32447@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1739 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970613/58a79dce/attachment-0001.ksh From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 13 20:44:26 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970613184845.48371e88@ricochet.net> At 01:56 PM 6/13/97 -0700, you wrote: >Say someone had a nice, working IMSAI 8080 in decent condition. How >much, realistically, could one expect to sell this for? Haddock lists it at 150-225... (Values are for complete systems, with everything that came with it, but not boxes, and not nec. working.) >Victor 9000, working...how much? I paid $100 + tax for mine. Took me a while to find it, too. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 13 21:00:41 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Classic Computers to Save? References: <199706131909.OAA15546@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <33A1FB49.578A@rain.org> Bill Girnius wrote: > > Im still looking for a plain Apple][, and an Apple//e platinum, the one > with the numeric keypad on the side, please check if they have any of > either of these, as I need them for my collection. > I checked and asked around at the school, but no luck. I'll talk to the other guy and see if I missed panything ... like an Apple ][ or the platinum edition:). From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 13 21:17:54 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Apple/Commodore Stuff References: <3.0.1.32.19970613074901.00f75990@mail.wizards.net> <33A19280.6D4D@rain.org> Message-ID: <33A1FF52.1ABD@rain.org> I have started going through the stuff I picked up at the school. As might be expected, there are a couple dozen or so titles of Educational Software, both for the Apple 2e and the C64. Is this something anyone here is interested in? If so, I can post titles. Otherwise, I'll just advertise it locally. I told the school if I can sell it, I'll go ahead and turn the monies back in to them (about a buck a title plus postage.) There are also about six Commodore 64s, some Vic and C-64 Disk Drives, a couple of Vic distribution boxes (for what I don't know,) and some miscellaneous stuff. They also had about a dozen composite sync B&W monitors. There are also some power packs. I might add that I don't know what works and what doesn't at this point although I *think* most came from classrooms and are working. They had one nice thing I am going to keep: a C-64 in the original box which was still in excellent shape! There are also some Apple manuals for probably the 2e and 2c or 2plus. Sorry, I don't recall and am not familiar with this stuff. There was also a multimedia book and disks about how to use one of the Apples. From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 13 21:23:02 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 References: <9706140142.AA32447@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33A20086.480C@rain.org> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > You should realize that you can still buy every part in the IMSAI 8080A > and associated boards and peripherals. You could build your own from > scratch for a few hundred $ (+ your time making the PC boards and > doing the sheet metal work.) I've done this, and it's called > [drum roll...] the TIMSAI. See my past posts on comp.os.cpm for > more details about "the original" and "the improved" (aka "IEEE-696 > compliant") versions. > Does this mean original parts? Also does it include the front plexiglass overlay? When I got my Imsai about 10 years ago (it came with a business I bought), someone had modified the Silkscreening to say "Zenrad Northstar Z80A". It would be nice to have the original front overlay! From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 13 22:26:59 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: A trip back in time in Boston In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970613153813.007d0850@mail90> from "Glenn Roberts" at Jun 13, 97 03:38:13 pm Message-ID: <9706140226.AA10658@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1826 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970613/c5873f9f/attachment-0001.ksh From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 13 21:28:25 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: IBM PC Cassette Recorder References: <199706131909.OAA15546@challenge.sunflower.com> <33A1FB49.578A@rain.org> Message-ID: <33A201C9.1057@rain.org> I have heard that there actually was an IBM (brand) Cassette recorder for use with the PC. I have been casually looking for one for about 10 years, and so far, haven't met or talked with anyone who has one or has seen one. Anyone here know if they actually exist and if so, have one they would like to trade off? From danjo at xnet.com Fri Jun 13 21:34:04 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix Message-ID: I realize this is a little off-topic (last build was about 1987 or 88) but I have my self in a corner 8-) There are a couple of windows I could crawl thru if I HAD to. I have a pristene TI Xenix 386DX16 system. I have access to one account and - you guessed it - it ain't root! Nobody seems to remember the root password 8-( I can't believe that I can't break into this thing! I don't have the original disks (I haven't dug that far into ALL my docs) but it has a SCSI Tape drive and two 8 port serial adaptors and some *special* TI card. It has 2 140 MB MFM drives and I want to keep both the drivers for the multiport boards and the SCSI board. I think I can get it to run Linux but I *really* don't want to blow away the Xenix. So - does any body know where I can find a way into Xenix? Are there any archives of CERT Advisories on glaring holes I can worm my way into editing the passwd file or something? I realize I could run CRACK but since that isn't what I normally do for FUN I was hoping the mass intellegence and huge experience in this list might be able to help 8-) All suggestions are welcome - except blowing it away. BC From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 13 22:38:27 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <33A20086.480C@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 13, 97 07:23:02 pm Message-ID: <9706140238.AA27140@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2606 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970613/cd0fa174/attachment-0001.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Fri Jun 13 21:51:02 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: from "Brett" at Jun 13, 97 09:34:04 pm Message-ID: <199706140251.WAA17501@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Brett once stated: > > > I realize this is a little off-topic (last build was about 1987 or 88) > but I have my self in a corner 8-) There are a couple of windows I could > crawl thru if I HAD to. > > I have a pristene TI Xenix 386DX16 system. > > I have access to one account and - you guessed it - it ain't root! > Nobody seems to remember the root password 8-( > > I can't believe that I can't break into this thing! [snip] > So - does any body know where I can find a way into Xenix? There are two I know of off hand that may let you in; one requiring you to know your Intel 386 Assembly. And both assume you are running certain programs. The first is via sendmail. There used to be a way to get into a debugging mode and have sendmail run arbitrary commands, and since it often ran as root, this was one way someone could break into a system. The debug mode of sendmail is the "wizard" mode, but I came onto the e-mail scene just after this hole was closed (after the Robert Morris Internet Worm of '88). I don't know more than that, sorry. The second requires the Intel 386 Assembly and assumes you have fingerd running (has to be fingerd). What this entails is feeding the fingerd program too much information, which overwrites the program stack. With careful programming, the excess information can be code that will then run arbitrary commands (since fingerd often runs as root). This will also require you to know where in memory the executable is loaded into so you provide a valid return address on the stack. If you don't have either of those, try finding an interactive setuid root program you can run, as it too, may be possible to overrun an input buffer. There may be easier ways, I just don't know of them offhand (do you have access to another Xenix system? Could you mount your drives to it? Can you boot MS-DOS on it (from the floppy)? If so, you might be able to use Norton Utilities to scan the harddrive for the password file and modify it there (and if not Norton, then some other low level disk editor program)). -spc (Just some ideas ... ) From BigLouS at aol.com Fri Jun 13 22:16:34 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <970613231633_134792636@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-13 16:35:47 EDT, Ray Stricklin wrote: > I'm just curious, but what's special about the MX-80? The MX-80 was the first low cost RELIABLE dot matrix printer and made printing an affordable reality for we poor early micro users. The Paper Tiger was (to the best of my memory) the first low cost ($995, again to the best of my memory) micro dot matrix printer. Unfortunately it was NOT very reliable. BTW after my post on collecting printers I suddenly realized I have about 12 lying around so I guess I am sort of collecting them - but it's against my will. :-) Lou From BigLouS at aol.com Fri Jun 13 22:16:35 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Thrifts out of controll Message-ID: <970613231635_1011353020@emout06.mail.aol.com> I frequent two thrift stores in the same town on a regular basis and the prices, while higher than what you folks on the west cost are used to, were reasonable. However three weeks ago they started getting in a lot of PC equipment and the prices on it were ridiculous i.e $70 for a Packard Bell XT clone with a monochrome monitor and $50 for an IBM 5150 PC with monitor. While I was amused I wasn't really concerned since I have little interest in this type of gear. Now however the madness has infected the old 8 bit equipment. Some examples. Apple IIc with monitor, 5 1/4" and 3 1/2" external drives $75. Not too bad you say. Well then how about a C-64 with a 1571 disk drive and power supplies for $80? The killer was a Coco 1 with manuals for $99 dollars. Three weeks ago the C-64 and the Coco would have been $12 each and the 1571 about $15. I assume that they have someone new pricing this equipment but I can't for the life of me figure out the rationale behind these prices. Needless to say they're not moving much equipment. Sorry for the rant but I just had to let it out. I did complain to the cashier who said (sincerely I believe) that she would inform the manager . Lou From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 13 23:33:05 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <970613231633_134792636@emout05.mail.aol.com> from "BigLouS@aol.com" at Jun 13, 97 11:16:34 pm Message-ID: <9706140333.AA01734@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 674 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970613/3d68a1ef/attachment-0001.ksh From thompson at squirrel.tgsoft.com Fri Jun 13 22:46:38 1997 From: thompson at squirrel.tgsoft.com (mark thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Earl's Message-ID: <19970614034638.10532.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com> Earl's down here (a liquidation place) has a DEC Rainbow for sale. I don't exactly remember what they want for it, but i remember thinking it was ridiculous (probably the better half of 100 bills, maybe more). However, if anybody wants this particular curio, I will be glad to trot down there and grab it for you. (If you aren't aware - it is a dual processor 8080 (CP/M) and 8086 (CP/M 86 or MS-DOS) computer with 2 5.25" floppies). I used to have one that belonged to work... it is kinda cool. -mark From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 13 23:53:23 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970613215323.00e0ed7c@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:29 AM 6/13/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > >> Wish I had my old MX-80 with the bootleg Graftrax ROM. > >I'm just curious, but what's special about the MX-80? Well... to my mind the thing that made the MX-80 somewhat revolutionary for its time was the user replacable print head that initially retailed for about $35.00. Compared against other printers of the time which required a trip to the shop and an average of $200.00 in repairs for a filed head, I think it deserves its place of recognition. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 00:07:00 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Classic Computers to Save? In-Reply-To: <33A1FB49.578A@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Bill Girnius wrote: > > > > Im still looking for a plain Apple][, and an Apple//e platinum, the one > > with the numeric keypad on the side, please check if they have any of > > either of these, as I need them for my collection. > > > > I checked and asked around at the school, but no luck. I'll talk to the > other guy and see if I missed panything ... like an Apple ][ or the > platinum edition:). The platinum edition would be a cinch to find in any school. You'd probably be VERY hard-pressed to find a vintage ][ in any school these days. Your best bet is a swap meet. That's where I found mine. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 00:04:03 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > Are there any archives of CERT Advisories on glaring holes I can > worm my way into editing the passwd file or something? I realize > I could run CRACK but since that isn't what I normally do for FUN > I was hoping the mass intellegence and huge experience in this list > might be able to help 8-) Build a device that taps into the data bus. Make it so that you can set a memory address using knobs and then the 16-bit value you want to store in that address. Then put a "fire" button on it that sets that memory address to the value. Then, find out where your uid is stored in the kernal, use your device to set the value at that address to 0, press fire and voila! You are root! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From frank at 5points.com Sat Jun 14 00:43:01 1997 From: frank at 5points.com (Frank Peseckis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Earl's In-Reply-To: <19970614034638.10532.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com> References: <19970614034638.10532.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com> Message-ID: <33af2e40.128975040@mail.capital.net> On 14 Jun 1997 03:46:38 -0000, mark thompson wrote: >Earl's down here (a liquidation place) has a DEC Rainbow for sale. [snip] >(If you aren't aware - it is a dual processor 8080 (CP/M) and 8086 (CP/M >86 or MS-DOS) computer with 2 5.25" floppies). I used to have one that >belonged to work... it is kinda cool. > Actually, the dual processors in a Rainbow are a z80a and an 8088. But I do agree they are cool machines. Frank Peseckis frank@5points.com http://www.5points.com/ From danjo at xnet.com Sat Jun 14 01:44:57 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > > Are there any archives of CERT Advisories on glaring holes I can > > worm my way into editing the passwd file or something? I realize > > I could run CRACK but since that isn't what I normally do for FUN > > I was hoping the mass intellegence and huge experience in this list > > might be able to help 8-) > > Build a device that taps into the data bus. Make it so that you can set > a memory address using knobs and then the 16-bit value you want to store > in that address. Then put a "fire" button on it that sets that memory > address to the value. Then, find out where your uid is stored in the > kernal, use your device to set the value at that address to 0, press fire > and voila! You are root! OF COURSE! That's it! How stupid of me! But I think you just got disinherited! You will NOT be getting my KIM-1 when I'm gone! 8-) 8-) Thanks Sam - I really do appreciate the - uh - effort 8-) BC From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 01:38:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Earl's In-Reply-To: <19970614034638.10532.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com> Message-ID: On 14 Jun 1997, mark thompson wrote: > Earl's down here (a liquidation place) has a DEC Rainbow for sale. I > don't exactly remember what they want for it, but i remember thinking it > was ridiculous (probably the better half of 100 bills, maybe more). > > However, if anybody wants this particular curio, I will be glad to trot > down there and grab it for you. > > (If you aren't aware - it is a dual processor 8080 (CP/M) and 8086 (CP/M > 86 or MS-DOS) computer with 2 5.25" floppies). I used to have one that > belonged to work... it is kinda cool. I had a deal going with a guy to get one for $10 plus shipping. He had several. But he said when he went to fire them up, none worked! I told him not to sweat it, but I think I'll go back and try to revive the deal. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 01:52:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > > Build a device that taps into the data bus. Make it so that you can set > > a memory address using knobs and then the 16-bit value you want to store > > in that address. Then put a "fire" button on it that sets that memory > > address to the value. Then, find out where your uid is stored in the > > kernal, use your device to set the value at that address to 0, press fire > > and voila! You are root! > > OF COURSE! That's it! How stupid of me! But I think you just got > disinherited! You will NOT be getting my KIM-1 when I'm gone! Oh come now! I should at least get brownie points for creativity! Hmph! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 01:49:19 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Thrifts out of controll In-Reply-To: <970613231635_1011353020@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > I frequent two thrift stores in the same town on a regular basis and the > prices, while higher than what you folks on the west cost are used to, were > reasonable. However three weeks ago they started getting in a lot of PC > equipment and the prices on it were ridiculous i.e $70 for a Packard Bell XT > clone with a monochrome monitor and $50 for an IBM 5150 PC with monitor. > While I was amused I wasn't really concerned since I have little interest in > this type of gear. > > Now however the madness has infected the old 8 bit equipment. Some examples. > > Apple IIc with monitor, 5 1/4" and 3 1/2" external drives $75. Not too bad > you say. Well then how about a C-64 with a 1571 disk drive and power supplies > for $80? The killer was a Coco 1 with manuals for $99 dollars. I hear you. But what you have to realize is, as lame as these prices are to us, these computers still really are usable, and probably are worth that price to some people, since the way they see it, a new computer costs in the thousands, while these only cost less than $100. To them, the distinction between computers from the 80's versus computers from the 90s is old vs. new. Not obsolete vs. new as it should be. However, as far as going market value is concerned based on flea market prices, yes these are inflated. > Three weeks ago the C-64 and the Coco would have been $12 each and the 1571 > about $15. I assume that they have someone new pricing this equipment but I > can't for the life of me figure out the rationale behind these prices. > > Needless to say they're not moving much equipment. > > Sorry for the rant but I just had to let it out. I did complain to the > cashier who said (sincerely I believe) that she would inform the manager . Sometimes the people who are in charge of the pricing at the thrifts are clueless, and just need to be informed. I went into a thrift one day and saw a bunch of nice computers that I wanted, but they were all way over-priced...$45 for a TI-99/4a, $25 for a C64, etc. I found the guy in charge of the pricing and told him diplomatically that they were way out of line. He was really cool about it and was willing to entertain an offer, so I offered $5 per unit. He agreed and ended up taking all 12 of the various systems that were sitting out. On top of that I got a 50% electronics discount (they have discounts on certain days for certain items) and then %30 on top of that for some other discount!!! I ended up paying only $25 or so. So the moral of the story is, talk to the manager and work out a deal. Tell them the prices are out of line, or else you would be interested in buying. If they still hedge, offer to come back in a week and if the systems are still there (which they most likely will be) ask to buy them at the price you want, or at least at a substantial discount. Another thrift store I go to has phenomenal pricing on old 8-bit stuff. I can usually go in there and pick-up a TI-99/4a, a VIC-20, a C64, an Atari x00, each for anywhere from $.99 to $2.98. Just last week I got a VIC-20 for $1.98. I got a TI-99/4a before that for $.99, and one day I got an Atari 800XL for $.99 and a 1050 drive for $1.98. It amazes me that they get this stuff in all the time, because this store is in a pretty low income area. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 14 06:04:31 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Thrifts out of controll In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 13, 97 11:49:19 pm Message-ID: <9706141004.AA15318@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2119 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970614/29a59243/attachment-0001.ksh From sprague at VivaNET.com Sat Jun 14 10:16:58 1997 From: sprague at VivaNET.com (Mike Sprague) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:22 2005 Subject: Thrifts out of controll References: <9706141004.AA15318@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33A2B5EA.20D7@VivaNET.com> > I don't think $50-$100 for a working system with drive, OS, and > manual is too far out of line, as long as the thrift is offering > some sort of value for the extra $. For $100, I would expect to at least get a 386, not an XT. Not very long ago, surplus places were selling 486's (less the monitor) for not much more than that, and many of those systems were _new_. :-) Even older Pentium systems are well under $1,000 now, and you can do so much more with them. Of course, I claim that a computer is never obsolete until it fails to meet your needs. I would put the value of a working XT _with_ Mono/CGA/EGA monitor at about $50 max, but I would never pay that much for one (well, maybe if it had a good EGA monitor). Chuckle, most older PC's are now more valuable as individual parts, then as a whole working system. Typically, the monitor (assuming color VGA) is the most valuable part. ~ Mike From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 14 07:24:09 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: A trip back in time in Boston Message-ID: <199706141224.AA04861@world.std.com> > In particular, none of the Altairs I saw people building in the > mid-70's worked as designed; there were typos in the assembly instructions > and to get reliable front panel operation most people had to tweak > the one-shots that controlled the timing. Some of these > modifications are well documented by John Zarella, in his Byte > (1975:4 p78) article "Assembling an Altair 8800". RE:8800 (A version) BIG TIME! As someone that built one of the first it was a dog to get going and I had scopes and all the goodies. I'd also worked with the 8008 before and was Intelized as it were. A friend build one about 6 months later and it was still flakey as hell. First of many mods was to get the damm oneshots off the cpu card and put in a 8224 clock generator. I got mine to a stable state but when the S4K memories came out I upgraded asap. Better but far from great. To many oneshots. In late '78 I transfered my IO, NS* MDS to a new HORIZON box with a 4mhz z80. used the altair for a few years to support testing (front pannel). I put it in mothballs about 84 and will likely never use it again. To highly modified to even consider museum piece and in '79 it suffered a lightining hit and was never right since. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 14 07:24:25 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <199706141224.AA04918@world.std.com> > repairs. I like mine because it has serial inputs - something that's > getting increasingly hard to find on 99% of the printers in production. the venerable LA120! It was the last of the printers that could punch 8part carbon forms. The more common la100RO or LA210 serial and quite solid. I'm still running a LA100RO I bought new in 84 wide platten and rugged with fair near letter quality. other serial printers from DEC: LA34, LA36, LA38, LA12 corrospondent, LA50, LA75, LN01 with serial option (that was a 12ppm xerox laser). To mention a few. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 14 08:13:05 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Earl's Message-ID: <199706141313.AA22193@world.std.com> > (If you aren't aware - it is a dual processor 8080 (CP/M) and 8086 (CP/M > 86 or MS-DOS) computer with 2 5.25" floppies). I used to have one that > belonged to work... it is kinda cool. No that's z80 and 8088 cpus running cpm80/86. Amoung other things it would take up to 896k of ram, color adaptor and a hard disk. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 14 08:13:13 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Printers Message-ID: <199706141313.AA22292@world.std.com> > > Well... to my mind the thing that made the MX-80 somewhat revolutionary fo > its time was the user replacable print head that initially retailed for > about $35.00. Compared against other printers of the time which required while significant there were other things of note. It was low cost but not cheap. It was widely sold. Many other vendors copied it, it was a defacto standard in itself. I represented a step up over many printers at twice the cost. Later version were based on it. Allison From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 08:46:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Thrifts out of controll In-Reply-To: <9706141004.AA15318@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I don't think $50-$100 for a working system with drive, OS, and manual is > too far out of line, as long as the thrift is offering some sort of > value for the extra $. For example, if the thrift is willing to > warranty the entire system, or the thrift is including an original > copy of MS-DOS 1.0 with that original PC along with the original manuals :-), > or the thrift is offering some sort of "first-time-user" support > for the system, then the thrift may very well be offering some > extra value to a certain portion of its market. I have never heard of a thrift store offering this sort of support. They are in the business of moving what amounts to garage sale items or throw-outs. I have never seen a thrift store warrant anything. > On the other hand, if the thrift is selling unsupported "as-is where-is" > no-warranty stuff for $100, I think a reality correction will be coming > along shortly for the folks there who price stuff... Exactly. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 14 10:16:55 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <199706141224.AA04918@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 14, 97 08:24:25 am Message-ID: <9706141416.AA06337@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 887 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970614/72c32201/attachment-0001.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 14 10:43:30 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: A trip back in time in Boston In-Reply-To: <199706141224.AA04861@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 14, 97 08:24:09 am Message-ID: <9706141443.AA23097@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2116 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970614/75add4d2/attachment-0001.ksh From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Sat Jun 14 11:11:11 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Thrifts out of controll Message-ID: <01IK24TQSS3M90OUHZ@cc.usu.edu> > I frequent two thrift stores in the same town on a regular basis and the > prices, while higher than what you folks on the west cost are used to, were > reasonable. However three weeks ago they started getting in a lot of PC > equipment and the prices on it were ridiculous i.e $70 for a Packard Bell XT > clone with a monochrome monitor and $50 for an IBM 5150 PC with monitor. > While I was amused I wasn't really concerned since I have little interest in > this type of gear. Could be worse. The University of Utah Property Redistribution Center seems to have a very odd idea of pricing. One day I went in and saw a teletype marked $300. Walked out with an HP 9100B calculator for $10. Somebody there seems to know _some_ things are collectable but has no idea exactly _what_. Last time I visited, though, it was all boring PC stuff... Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Jun 14 11:13:19 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: A trip back in time in Boston In-Reply-To: <9706141443.AA23097@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <199706141224.AA04861@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970614091319.00eafd9c@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:43 AM 6/14/97 -0800, you wrote: >> > In particular, none of the Altairs I saw people building in the >> > mid-70's worked as designed; there were typos in the assembly instructions >> > and to get reliable front panel operation most people had to tweak >> > the one-shots that controlled the timing. Some of these >> > modifications are well documented by John Zarella, in his Byte >> > (1975:4 p78) article "Assembling an Altair 8800". >> >> RE:8800 (A version) >> >> BIG TIME! As someone that built one of the first it was a dog to get going >> and I had scopes and all the goodies. I'd also worked with the 8008 before >> and was Intelized as it were. A friend build one about 6 months later and >> it was still flakey as hell. I put it in mothballs about 84 and will likely >> never use it again. To highly modified to even consider museum piece and in >> '79 it suffered a lightining hit and was never right since. > >I personally disagree with the "highly modified" == "not a museum piece". >Museums which insist on having early computers be "as shipped from >the factory" (or, as was more often the case "as assembled using the >instructions") will be sorely disappointed in the event they expect >them to run when turned on. > >As you point out, no real user of S-100 equipment ever bought an Altair >or IMSAI and then never opened it up to swap out the CPU, replace >the original memory card, or add I/O and a decent disk controller. The >S-100 world in the late 70's/early 80's was incredibly varied and >active; if a museum chooses to limit its collection to pristine machines >with only original cards, then they aren't truly representing how >leading-edge hobbyist, commercial, and industrial microcomputing was >done in that time era. I agree with Tim here. Nearly all of the early Altairs in my collection (8800, 8800a) have some mods in them (all published in the MITS newsletter "Computer Notes" if I recall correctly), although I must admit I do not remember anywhere the horrors in getting mine working as I see frequently described around here. I've even got an unmodified CPU or two about, and aside from having to wait a couple of seconds after power up for all to stabilize and then hitting the reset switch a time or two to get the CPU into a rational state, I generally don't have too many problems. (keep in mind, I ran my BBS system on my early Altair for over 10 years! It can't be *that* bad) As to their 'condition' in a 'historical' view, I can still document *all* of the mods as being contemporary to the system so I do not see how they could be viewed as lessening the systems value or historical significance. You should see the number of factory mods on some of my PDP gear! (I can document many of those too!) Now, I will grant you that on occasion it is useful to return a system to as close to an original condition as possible. In the case of the Altair for instance, one of my units has the original 4 slot motherboard, original power supply, and painfully little front panel switches. I also keep an original CPU board and 256 byte memory board that can be installed when I want it to be "original". Curiously though, when I loaned one of my Altairs to Microsoft for a preentation to the Smithsonian Museum, both parties were *much* less interested in 'original condition' than they were in the designated topic of the presentation. The Smithsonian staff had requested a demonstration of an "original" Altair 8800 running the "original" Microsoft product, 'BASIC'. Obviously, there are some contradictions here! An "original" Altair could not possibly run BASIC. That required a minimum of 4k of RAM, I/O, and a device that could read paper tape. Hardly "original" in the view of some. What I finally provided them after some discussion (and pointing out the above), was my oldest Altair (with the 4 slot motherboard), with an original CPU card, an IMS 16k memory card, MITS 2SIO serial board, and a MITS Microsoft Extended BASIC ROM board. Not "original" in the narrow view, but best suited for purposes of this demonstration, and pertectly in line with what was available around that time, with the possible exception of the ROM board. I did offer to provide them with a TTY and the paper tape (which would have been more 'historically accurate'), but the 40 minute loading time seemed to disuade them rather quickly. But I digress... I've got various views on why "museums" want to treat their displays in such manners, (having some experiance with the local ones) but I don't want to start down that path... (today...) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Sat Jun 14 13:52:39 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Stuff I looked at today Message-ID: <970614135239.2081e27f@wartburg.edu> I decided to go to garage sales this morning. I passed up an IBM 5150 with some sort of monitor for $15 or offer. It had a single 5.25" drive. I suspect it had been picked over for parts, since there was another PC there for sale, and the seller said that he "wanted to upgrade the other PC's memory with chips from this one." I didn't really want the machine, and I didn't figure it would be worth shipping. I bought a TI-99/4A for $2, in its original box. As far as I can tell, it's a complete system, but there's no software. All of you have one of these machines, right? :) -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu Sat Jun 14 11:07:43 1997 From: garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu (Gary S. Katz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199706142007.QAA07437@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu> And the DMP 100 bears a remarkable resemblance to my Radio Shack TRS-80 Line Printer 7 -- IIRC. I wrote my high school papers on this with Scripsit until I found a DMP110, which would do true lower case descenders (not available on the LP7). -gk > Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:12:30 -0400 (EDT) > From: Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers > Subject: Re: Printers > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > > > Add to that the Gorilla-Banana - 1 pin printing at it's finest! And > > probably the dumbest name I've ever seen on a piece of computer > > equipment. > > Ah yes, it bears a remarkable resemblance to my Radio Shack DMP-100. > I know that Axion sold them, can't recall the model number. But this > old DMP-100 is the most appropriate printer I've got for the 4k > non-Extended Color BASIC Color Computer. Wish I had my old MX-80 > with the bootleg Graftrax ROM. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe > > ***************************************************** Gary S. Katz 626C OEH University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA 15213 (412) 624-9347 voice (412) 624-5407 fax ***************************************************** From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 14 15:15:02 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Stuff I looked at today Message-ID: <199706142015.AA12347@world.std.com> > I bought a TI-99/4A for $2, in its original box. As far as I can tell, > it's a complete system, but there's no software. All of you have one > of these machines, right? :) If I remember it didn't come with software other than the embedded basic. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 14 15:15:09 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: MIT flea... Message-ID: <199706142015.AA12390@world.std.com> Tomorrow I will be at the MIT flea market. I have to thin my excesses. Of interest will be: memory and some other parts in tubes with old (pre81) date codes. Stuff like TMS4060, upd411, upd410, 2012... Motorola 6800D1 board, with docs and extras. Some s100 boards SEALS, IMS and PT 8k 2102 memory and others. Some Altair memory S4k and 88-4MCD, altair front pannel logic and 8080 cpu. Many with docs available. DUAL inc, 68k s100 cpu. compupro s100 motherboard. S100 box, industrial strength. Some extra CPM docs and misc books. Intel MDS800 nearly complete, no disks. I have a non intel multibus disk controller for it. Silver reed LQP, complete with docs, daisy wheels, ribbons. Working. Anadex printer working, with docs. Both serial and parallel. 2 cocos condition unknown. MISC qbus PDP11 modules including some core planes(operational!). A couple of BDV11va. Wire wrap modules. H962 diode rom boot board with docs. Assortment of power supplies. Very complete TRS80 DOCS, CPU, EI, tapes extras. Including some z80 and trs-80 books. Floppy drives, St506 drives, external single floppy boxes (al la TRS80). Fans for use in s100 or other boxes. Allison From william at ans.net Sat Jun 14 16:18:48 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Free tape drives - the deal In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970614091319.00eafd9c@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <199706142118.AA04257@interlock.ans.net> Well, I have greatly underestimated the demand for 8mm SCSI tape drives. I have been flooded with requests for the things (but oddly enough, not much else) by quite a great number of people, including some that may not be on the list ("hey, I heard your giving away tape drives! Can I have one?"). I am only giving away three units (the rest, along with just about everything else, is going to RCS/RI for trading stock) - a limitted supply, but there were only about twenty of these routers in service across the country. So, in order to get these to the right people, I would like any interested parties to tell me _why_ they want one of these drives. If it is going to be used for a classic computer or old workstation - good. If the owner respects the artifacts for what they were - better. In other words, the three people that can come up with the most noble fates for the critters will get them shipped to their door. I still really do not know any of you people well, so there will be no politics. I will announce the winners in a few days. Please send your responses to me rather than the list. The price? Still free for postage... I should add that these drives _should_ work just fine. The routers were pulled from everyday service not terribly long ago, and most have been treated well. And finally, a last minute addition - does anyone need a FDDI bypass? William Donzelli william@ans.net From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sat Jun 14 17:32:11 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970609231610.0069daec@post.keme.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970614233211.006b92f4@post.keme.co.uk> At 06:10 13/06/97 -0400, you wrote: > > >On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, steve wrote: > >> CPM DISKS Easy Download em from the net, make a 1541 lead to connect the >> 1541 to PC its in the DOX on C64s Emulator, Use a util on the PC called >> Star Commander and copy stright to a real 1541. Easy!!! If you need more >> info Mail ME.. > >Of course this all assumes that I *have* a PC. > >However, if the CP/M disks simply contain files and don't use the normal >CP/M disk structure, I can transfer the files via the parallel<->user port >cable I have. > >Otherwise I guess I'll have to write a disk image transfer program using >the modem like I did with the Apple ][. (I don't know how to do the >programming for the parallel cable, and phone cable is pysically much >easier to set up as I don't have to move any machines.) > >I have to get the hardware to work before I worry about disks, though. 22DISK allows you to convert, format and manipulate diskettes in over 450 CP/M formats to and from DOS files. Your old CP/M machine may be gone, but you can read its diskettes in the drives of your PC-compatible. Some formats will require a 1.2M diskette drive; a very few will require a diskette controller that handles single-density diskettes. An ASCII diskette description drive allows "roll your own" specifications for hard-to-find or proprietary systems. >DO YOU WANA COPY??? Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From josh at netins.net Sat Jun 14 17:43:27 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Stuff I looked at today Message-ID: <199706142243.RAA00287@ins3.netins.net> I had a good weekend. This is what I got: 2 UNOPENED boxes of QuickFile II for Apple II 1 Pinpoint Software for Apple II 1 Set of manuals for IBM PC AT 2 Sets of manuals for WordPerfect (In box like PC AT manuals) 1 TI 59 Calculator with printer 1 Apple IIE computer 1 Microsoft Softcard 1 Super Serial II card 4 Disk II drives 2 Diks II interfaces 1 Numeric pad for IIe 1 Apple II Parallel card (By apple) 1 Amiga Monitor, the nice RGB/Composite monitor, Mono 1 Kodac Diconix 150+ printer for Mac All for $50. It was at our local Science center, so I decided to be generous with my offers. They keep all procedes. Any offers for trades/for sale welcome. Any pointers to info on the softcard? Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 14 18:49:14 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970614233211.006b92f4@post.keme.co.uk> from "steve" at Jun 14, 97 11:32:11 pm Message-ID: <9706142249.AA07721@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1607 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970614/fcaaa067/attachment-0001.ksh From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 17:59:32 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: <199706140251.WAA17501@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > > The first is via sendmail. There used to be a way to get into a debugging > mode and have sendmail run arbitrary commands, and since it often ran as > root, this was one way someone could break into a system. The debug mode of > sendmail is the "wizard" mode, but I came onto the e-mail scene just after > this hole was closed (after the Robert Morris Internet Worm of '88). I > don't know more than that, sorry. sendmail wasn't part of Xenix in those days -- all networking aside from uucp was extra, and mostly still being developed. > The second requires the Intel 386 Assembly and assumes you have fingerd > running (has to be fingerd). What this entails is feeding the fingerd > program too much information, which overwrites the program stack. With > careful programming, the excess information can be code that will then run > arbitrary commands (since fingerd often runs as root). This will also > require you to know where in memory the executable is loaded into so you > provide a valid return address on the stack. No fingerd, either. Or _any_ real networking daemons in Xenix at the time. > If you don't have either of those, try finding an interactive setuid root > program you can run, as it too, may be possible to overrun an input buffer. No real holes that I remember from Xenix in that era -- amazingly secure for a Unix port in those days. > There may be easier ways, I just don't know of them offhand (do you have > access to another Xenix system? Could you mount your drives to it? Can you > boot MS-DOS on it (from the floppy)? If so, you might be able to use Norton > Utilities to scan the harddrive for the password file and modify it there > (and if not Norton, then some other low level disk editor program)). Well, I know that the setuid hole in Profile 16 for Tandy 68000 Xenix was never fixed. But filePro 16plus for the 386 version didn't have it. Back when I broke into over half the Tandy 6000 systems in the Radio Shack Area Training and Support Offices in 1986 (by invitation from management -- I'm a hacker, not a cracker) my tools were lists of the employees' names (works nine out of ten times) and knowledge of the hole in Profile 16. Which I'd already published a fix for. (An expanded version of which is available in CIS UNIXFORUM under the filename SECURE.MS -- I'd delete it, but the account with authority to do so is ancient history). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 18:02:16 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Thrifts out of controll In-Reply-To: <970613231635_1011353020@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > Apple IIc with monitor, 5 1/4" and 3 1/2" external drives $75. Not too bad > you say. Well then how about a C-64 with a 1571 disk drive and power supplies > for $80? The killer was a Coco 1 with manuals for $99 dollars. > > Three weeks ago the C-64 and the Coco would have been $12 each and the 1571 > about $15. I assume that they have someone new pricing this equipment but I > can't for the life of me figure out the rationale behind these prices. We probably have a lurker on the mailing list. Shit happens. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 18:09:16 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970613215323.00e0ed7c@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Jim Willing wrote: > Well... to my mind the thing that made the MX-80 somewhat revolutionary for > its time was the user replacable print head that initially retailed for > about $35.00. Compared against other printers of the time which required a > trip to the shop and an average of $200.00 in repairs for a filed head, I > think it deserves its place of recognition. You mean those heads could break? Mine refused to do anything of the kind under incredible abuse. (Printing a complete set of manuals for Tandy 6000 Xenix 3.2 in one operation comes to mind -- but that wasn't the worst thing I did to the beast). My wife wouldn't let me have another printer until that one failed -- and she was a computer technician who would have recognized sabotage. Eventually I realised that it would be easier to get a different wife... -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 18:19:08 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Build a device that taps into the data bus. Make it so that you can set > a memory address using knobs and then the 16-bit value you want to store > in that address. Then put a "fire" button on it that sets that memory > address to the value. Then, find out where your uid is stored in the > kernal, use your device to set the value at that address to 0, press fire > and voila! You are root! crack is easier than finding where the kernel is going to store a UID in memory. It's not exactly a constant. (But you knew that -- using the term "uid" gives you away as knowing about processors that handle more than eight bits at a time 8-)} heretic). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 18:59:14 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <199706142007.QAA07437@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Gary S. Katz wrote: > And the DMP 100 bears a remarkable resemblance to my Radio Shack > TRS-80 Line Printer 7 -- IIRC. I wrote my high school papers on this > with Scripsit until I found a DMP110, which would do true lower case > descenders (not available on the LP7). You're right. And looking in the front room, it's an LP-7 that I've got, not a DMP-100. Now I have to use self-hypnosis to recall how they differed besides the mercedes silver to white color change. I do know they shared the same incredibly annoying noise when they were printing. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Sat Jun 14 19:04:50 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Stuff I looked at today Message-ID: <970614190450.2081de26@wartburg.edu> >I had a good weekend. This is what I got: [snip] >All for $50. It was at our local Science center, so I decided to be >generous with my offers. They keep all procedes. Any offers for >trades/for sale welcome. Any pointers to info on the softcard? Ain't kidding you had a good weekend! -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 20:15:30 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: MIT flea... In-Reply-To: <199706142015.AA12390@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > Tomorrow I will be at the MIT flea market. I have to thin my excesses. > > Of interest will be: > > Assortment of power supplies. Very complete TRS80 DOCS, CPU, EI, tapes > extras. Including some z80 and trs-80 books. > > Floppy drives, St506 drives, external single floppy boxes (al la TRS80). Allie, why do you have to inflict this torture on those of us outside convenient driving radius? Especially those of us severely queer for old TRS-80 stuff? (I can find Apple and Commode stuff everywhere -- the stuff I want is hen's teeth around north Jersey most of the time). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 20:19:20 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Stuff I looked at today In-Reply-To: <199706142015.AA12347@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > I bought a TI-99/4A for $2, in its original box. As far as I can tell, > > it's a complete system, but there's no software. All of you have one > > of these machines, right? :) > > If I remember it didn't come with software other than the embedded basic. That's all I recall. For a suitable bribe, I could open Lisa's number three TI-99/4A that's still shrink-wrapped and check. She won't notice until she gets home Monday (and I'll be in the hospital Tuesday). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 21:15:40 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: <199706142007.QAA07437@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Gary S. Katz wrote: > And the DMP 100 bears a remarkable resemblance to my Radio Shack > TRS-80 Line Printer 7 -- IIRC. I wrote my high school papers on this > with Scripsit until I found a DMP110, which would do true lower case > descenders (not available on the LP7). I've been meaning to ask this: Why the hell is that program called "Scripsit"? I can't think of a stupider name. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 22:08:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Beat this haul... Message-ID: Ok, the weekend's not even over, and here's how I did: 101 Online - A neat little terminal with a 9" screen. The keyboard covers the screen and flips down with the push of a button. It has a built-in 4800bps modem. It was used to connect to some online service in California at some time or another. The whole thing is in this cute 10"x10"x10" package - $5 Laser 50 with manuals - $4 (Hi Bill!) Commodore 64, Commodore 64C (two of 'em, one seems to be this weird clone since the plastic looks different from the other one and it has no markings), two 1541 drives, two Star NX-1000C dot matrix printers - All free Data General One (Model 2) laptop. Two questions: How did the model 2 differ from the model 1? And I didn't get a power supply with this, but was told by a couple people all it requires is a special three-prong power cord. The receptacle is an oval with three conductors. Anyone know about this? - $15 2 Commodore 1541 drives, 2 Commodore 1571 drives - $8 DEC Rainbow 100 with all the trimmings (extra cards, all software and manuals) - $10 VIC-20 Modem - $1 Commodore 64 user's guide, VIC-20 User's Guide - $1 (the guy I bought this stuff from claims to have 7 PDP-11s and "several" PDP-8s that he's been hording. Needless to say I threatened him with great bodily harm if he didn't give me some. We agreed to meet to discuss the "free taking" of one of each system. He also has lots of other DEC stuff for sale and for give-away to those who would give it good homes. I will keep us posted on any late-breaking developments. He also said he has a Cyber hard drive unit which sounds like the size of a dishwasher as he described it. I think the model number was 690s or something. I know I'm way off. If anyone wants this its in California. Apparently he has tons of mostly DEC stuff he's been collecting from local colleges and universtities. Again, I'll keep us posted). And let's see, oh yeah, I'm not done! ZX-81 with manuals/power supply and... Victor 9000 and... IMSAI 8080! IMSAI MPU-A (Rev 4) 8080A CPU card IMSAI SIO (Rev 3) Serial card DCHayes Modem (I am assuming 300baud...S100!) Disk Jockey 2D/B 8" drive card (and some 8" drive...I forget the manufacturer) (4) Digital Research Company Memory Boards (I think each one is 16K) All manuals/schematics/notes plus some extra IMSAI fron panel overlays All this from the original owner for $100. What a bargain. Ok, this guy is cool. First of all, to you guys complaining that you never get anything good, here's the message I posted on my local forsale newsgroup which brought about this acquisition: ---BEGIN USENET MESSAGE--- From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 11 02:00:28 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: WANT TO BUY YOUR OLD-ASSED COMPUTERS! Message-ID: <5nliec$b6s$1@nnrp1.crl.com> I want your old microcomputers from the 70s and 80s. I do NOT want any common PC clone. I am looking mainly for stuff that doesn't exist in any way shape or form today. I am looking for rarer models, as I already own most of the more common micros of the early micro-revolution. Please e-mail me at dastar@crl.com with what you got and we can work out a deal. Thanks. ---END USENET MESSAGE--- So this guy, Gary, responds and tells me he has an IMSAI 8080 and a Victor 9000 he wouldn't mind getting rid of. SCORE! So anyway, he used to be an attendee of the Homebrew Computer Club, which if you don't know was a bunch of hackers and geeks (including of course Jobs and Wozniak) who got together every week or month in (I believe) either Mountain View or Sunnyvale, to show off the computers they were building. Read Steven Levy's _Hackers_ for the complete (and very entertaining) story. He was telling me all these cool stories. One was about how a Lawrence Livermore National Lab employee made a bunch of paper-tape copies of Gates' BASIC when it first came out and brought them to a meeting of the HCC, claiming that on his way over, a box of stuff dropped from a bus, and when he went to go check it out he found all these weird paper tapes in it (40 or so) and that everyone was welcome to have them, whereby he began tossing them out into the audience. Gary of course got one of them, and invited me to look at and touch it under the condition that I didn't drool on it and muss it up. It was in perfect condition! The neatest thing about it is that it had "Z80 BASIC COPYRIGHT MICROSOFT" punched into it (that isn't the actual message, I've forgotten what it said already). He said the week after, Bill himself showed up and whined to the crowd, asking "How am I supposed to make any money off this if you guys are pirating my stuff?" I'm sure, in hindsight, Bill certainly doesn't mind the fact that the Microsoft BASIC standard created by the piracy of his original BASIC has made him a $32 billion man today. He went on to tell me the stories about how he built his IMSAI and applied fixes and patches for flaws in the design, and showed me the schematics and took me through some of the documentation. He's a really neat guy. We're going to be staying in touch. He's moving soon and he says when he cleans his garage out and figures what else he has he will probably let me have some of it, including his full run of Byte magazine starting from issue 4. He also has a CompuPro 8/16 that he wanted to hang onto, as well as a Heathkit H19 terminal that he built from the kit, but he says he might not want to take them with him. So anyway, that's what a day of tooling around the bay area got me. I also met Paul Coad at a parking lot sale and we ran into Doug Coward (you may have checked out his Web museum page, I forget the URL). It was a good day. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 22:27:42 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > I've been meaning to ask this: Why the hell is that program called > "Scripsit"? I can't think of a stupider name. Damfino. It was the official name of every word processing program ever written in Fort Worth. I started with the cassette version on the Mod 1 with 16k (left 4017 bytes for text once the program was loaded) and never touched a typewriter after, except to help a friend lift an old Selectric over the edge of a Dumpster(tm). Scripsit for the Model 2 in my arrogant opinion was the best writer's word processor ever run on a Z-80. Isaac Asimov did his last 150-200 books using it -- none of that fancy crap about proportional print, kerning or multiple fonts -- what a writer needed was 10-pitch, ragged margins, double-spaced and a clean printout for the editor which the Daisy Wheel Printer II was far better at than any of these new-fangled laser things for producing. Scripsit-16 was even better in some ways, but writers didn't want to learn Xenix. (That program was unique in that it was the first serious application ported from Unix to MS-DOS instead of the other way around like Wordperfect and Samna). I'll admit for my own _use_ rather than _support, my favorite was AllWrite by ProSoft, which I used for years on my old 4p. But Scripsit was (in _ALL_ of its incarnations -- it was a different product from the core on the 1/3/4 line, 2/12, 16/6000 Xenix then MS-DOS, and Color Computer -- same name, different product on four architectures -- SuperScripsit being a very different [and faulty] can of worms) Radio Shack's only name for its home-brewed word processing programs. The word itself is a tense of "to write" in Latin. Do a web search (_ANY_ engine -- I've checked) and most of the hits you'll get on the keyword "scripsit" are documents in that language or by SCA members. The rest are mostly trivia, but one was a good article on classic computers and software by a New Mexico stringer for the New York Times, URL not presently at hand. If anybody's got a copy of AllWrite or Scripsit-PC (I want to check them out with the sundry emulators under Linux -- AllWrite should be fun running in a TRS-DOS emulator running in an MS-DOS emulator) I'm really looking for them. My AllWrite disappeared in a move, and I never thought to acquire Scripsit-PC (I never expected to have a system that was PC compatible, in honest truth -- but then Linux appeared, with _source code_). Oh, and if anyone has a copy of "The Source" to LS-DOS that can be spared (I _knew_ I should have bought it when Roy was closing it out!) I'm looking for that too. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 14 22:16:04 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Stuff I looked at today In-Reply-To: <970614135239.2081e27f@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Andy Brobston wrote: > I bought a TI-99/4A for $2, in its original box. As far as I can tell, > it's a complete system, but there's no software. All of you have one > of these machines, right? :) You need to start looking for carthridges. These turn up in the most mundane places...swap meets, thrift stores, garage sales, friends' closets... Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 14 22:35:34 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Beat this haul... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: Damn it, but I wish I could get back home to California. Either the Bay Area or Los Angeles. But silly me, I didn't get into the habit of collecting computers seriously until I exiled myself to New Jersey. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sat Jun 14 19:04:59 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Digital Group; anyone? In-Reply-To: References: <970614135239.2081e27f@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: <199706150404.AAA15051@mail.cgocable.net> Hello! Name: Jason D. Pero and Canadian citizen, in Kingston, Ontario. BTW, born in Sept. '72 so that marks me as one part of computer revolation. ;) Call me Troll for now. My first intro and been watching this mailing list for a while...Liked it this way. I collect few oldies and prevserve/rebuilding some personal computer equipments. Did several dumpster raids to save few machines. Have touched on two enhanced/souped up Osborne I's in repairs, passed on a Apple IIe /w two drive, Apple monitor to my best friend who LOVE apple stuff with good stuff right off from dumpster to keep him happy and promised to fix his flaky apple II! One Dec "internal" big, removeable hard drive that you open it up to change disk in it's pack and needs two people to move the drive. Huh! I have two Zenith XT types. One is kinda childish small luggeable XT with funny slim 5.25" and flip down keyboard. Did not want to start up often, rarely starts up. Other one 20lb monster laptop model ZWL-183-92 that works without its bad hd. I also have panasonic KX-1080 that still bangs away like new. I have somewhere lost in storage two non-working memory cores boards. My main interest at this moment: This is one of the EARLY bare computer by this company called Digital Group. It dated 1975. Wow! Given to me by original owner years ago '90. I have this boards 32k board, 2k with Z80 cpu, video board/tape cassette combo and I/O board all on the small, semi fake s100 bus. And, it also has keyboard with its oneshots on it. One thing through, the computer is not working! :( What is best way to restore it? Video part uses composite output. What is right kind of monitor to use on this one? I needed documents to set it up right and data source to recreate the ROM chip for this Z80 and some data for downloading to cassette tapes. :) Gak! There you go! Troll From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 15 01:55:12 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Computer Baseball References: Message-ID: <33A391D0.690@rain.org> I guess thing classifies as an early computer :). I am looking at "Computer Baseball" "(C) Electronic Data Controls Corporation 1969". It consists of a wooden playboard about 18" x 24" with a small playfield, a scoring matrix with 16 light bulbs along the side, and a bunch of headers along the top (Pitches, Right Field, Center Field, Left Field, Ground To 1st, Ground To 2nd, Ground To 3rd, Doubel Play, and steal). There are also five push buttons with a red one labeled "Play" and the other black ones labeled "Selections". There is also a rotary switch labeled "Outs". It looks kind of neat and is in pretty good condition but no docs, box, or infomation with it of any sort. Anyone remember this thing? From jrice at texoma.net Sun Jun 15 07:05:00 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Beat this haul... References: Message-ID: <33A3DA6C.7C70@texoma.net> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Ok, the weekend's not even over, and here's how I did: > > 101 Online - A neat little terminal with a 9" screen. The keyboard > covers the screen and flips down with the push of a button. It has a > built-in 4800bps modem. It was used to connect to some online service in > California at some time or another. The whole thing is in this cute > 10"x10"x10" package - $5 > > Laser 50 with manuals - $4 (Hi Bill!) > > Commodore 64, Commodore 64C (two of 'em, one seems to be this weird clone > since the plastic looks different from the other one and it has no > markings), two 1541 drives, two Star NX-1000C dot matrix printers - All free > > Data General One (Model 2) laptop. Two questions: How did the model 2 > differ from the model 1? And I didn't get a power supply with this, but > was told by a couple people all it requires is a special three-prong > power cord. The receptacle is an oval with three conductors. Anyone > know about this? - $15 > > 2 Commodore 1541 drives, 2 Commodore 1571 drives - $8 > DEC Rainbow 100 with all the trimmings (extra cards, all software and > manuals) - $10 > VIC-20 Modem - $1 > Commodore 64 user's guide, VIC-20 User's Guide - $1 > > (the guy I bought this stuff from claims to have 7 PDP-11s and "several" > PDP-8s that he's been hording. Needless to say I threatened him with > great bodily harm if he didn't give me some. We agreed to meet to discuss > the "free taking" of one of each system. He also has lots of other DEC > stuff for sale and for give-away to those who would give it good homes. I > will keep us posted on any late-breaking developments. He also said he > has a Cyber hard drive unit which sounds like the size of a dishwasher as > he described it. I think the model number was 690s or something. I know > I'm way off. If anyone wants this its in California. Apparently he has > tons of mostly DEC stuff he's been collecting from local colleges and > universtities. Again, I'll keep us posted). > > And let's see, oh yeah, I'm not done! > > ZX-81 with manuals/power supply and... > Victor 9000 and... > IMSAI 8080! > IMSAI MPU-A (Rev 4) 8080A CPU card > IMSAI SIO (Rev 3) Serial card > DCHayes Modem (I am assuming 300baud...S100!) > Disk Jockey 2D/B 8" drive card (and some 8" drive...I forget the > manufacturer) > (4) Digital Research Company Memory Boards (I think each one is 16K) > All manuals/schematics/notes plus some extra IMSAI fron panel overlays > > All this from the original owner for $100. What a bargain. > > Ok, this guy is cool. First of all, to you guys complaining that you > never get anything good, here's the message I posted on my local forsale > newsgroup which brought about this acquisition: > > ---BEGIN USENET MESSAGE--- > > >From nnrp1.crl.com!dastar Fri Jun 13 18:41:15 1997 > Path: nnrp1.crl.com!dastar > From: dastar@crl.com (Sam Ismail) > Newsgroups: ba.market.computers > Subject: WANT TO BUY YOUR OLD-ASSED COMPUTERS! > Date: 11 Jun 1997 07:00:28 GMT > Organization: Gigantor Industries, Ltd. > Lines: 12 > Message-ID: <5nliec$b6s$1@nnrp1.crl.com> > Reply-To: spam@spam.org (CHANGE THIS REPLY-TO FIELD IF YOU WANT ME TO GET YOUR MESSAGE) > NNTP-Posting-Host: crl9.crl.com > X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] > Xref: nnrp1.crl.com ba.market.computers:90318 > > I want your old microcomputers from the 70s and 80s. I do NOT want any > common PC clone. I am looking mainly for stuff that doesn't exist in > any way shape or form today. I am looking for rarer models, as I already > own most of the more common micros of the early micro-revolution. > Please e-mail me at dastar@crl.com with what you got and we can work out > a deal. Thanks. > > ---END USENET MESSAGE--- > > So this guy, Gary, responds and tells me he has an IMSAI 8080 and a Victor > 9000 he wouldn't mind getting rid of. SCORE! So anyway, he used to be an > attendee of the Homebrew Computer Club, which if you don't know was a > bunch of hackers and geeks (including of course Jobs and Wozniak) who got > together every week or month in (I believe) either Mountain View or > Sunnyvale, to show off the computers they were building. Read Steven > Levy's _Hackers_ for the complete (and very entertaining) story. He was > telling me all these cool stories. One was about how a Lawrence Livermore > National Lab employee made a bunch of paper-tape copies of Gates' BASIC > when it first came out and brought them to a meeting of the HCC, claiming > that on his way over, a box of stuff dropped from a bus, and when he went > to go check it out he found all these weird paper tapes in it (40 or so) > and that everyone was welcome to have them, whereby he began tossing them > out into the audience. Gary of course got one of them, and invited me to > look at and touch it under the condition that I didn't drool on it and > muss it up. It was in perfect condition! The neatest thing about it is > that it had "Z80 BASIC COPYRIGHT MICROSOFT" punched into it (that isn't > the actual message, I've forgotten what it said already). He said the > week after, Bill himself showed up and whined to the crowd, asking "How > am I supposed to make any money off this if you guys are pirating my > stuff?" I'm sure, in hindsight, Bill certainly doesn't mind the fact > that the Microsoft BASIC standard created by the piracy of his original > BASIC has made him a $32 billion man today. > > He went on to tell me the stories about how he built his IMSAI and applied > fixes and patches for flaws in the design, and showed me the schematics > and took me through some of the documentation. He's a really neat guy. > We're going to be staying in touch. He's moving soon and he says when he > cleans his garage out and figures what else he has he will probably let me > have some of it, including his full run of Byte magazine starting from > issue 4. He also has a CompuPro 8/16 that he wanted to hang onto, as well > as a Heathkit H19 terminal that he built from the kit, but he says he > might not want to take them with him. > > So anyway, that's what a day of tooling around the bay area got me. I also > met Paul Coad at a parking lot sale and we ran into Doug Coward (you may > have checked out his Web museum page, I forget the URL). > > It was a good day. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Sam the DG1 series took a special brick supply. I have one at work (I was private labeled at the Allen-Bradley T-45 programming terminal). I'll measure the output and polarity and get back with you. James L. Rice From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 13 17:28:14 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Terak 8510a In-Reply-To: <199706121219.5293@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > Oh, you lucky thing!. The Terak is a machine I'm looking out for, and I've > never managed to find one. Whatever you do, look after it. I hadn't heard of it a month ago, but the moment I read about it I just wanted one. Guess what happens a few weeks after that. Can't be abysmally unlucky /all/ your life. I may not have a PDP-{8,11}, but I have something extremely close. And it's my first ever non-Motorola/Zilog/MOS platform. :-) > Any ideas as to which model? If it's the long-lost PERQ T4, serial number > DEMO01, I'll not be responsible for my actions :-).... I can't identify them, I'm afraid. It's got the (typical, I think) portrait screen and a big floor unit with a single 8" floppy drive. I doubt it's got a serial number that low, but here's its story. Maybe it's useful and maybe it'll make you berserk, grabbing the first plane to Edinburgh with froth coming out of your mouth. :-) Anyway, according to DAI's Systems Manager, Edinburgh University (or DAI, specifically, can't remember) was evaluating workstations on behalf of UK universities. Among the candidates (maybe the ONLY candidates) were the Sun 2 series and the Perq. I believe the Sun 2 was considered better in the end, but there were some Perqs left around the university. My estimation is that happened sometime around 1982. Whether this is a particularly rate Perq or not, three people went to that storage room. Three people bathed the Perq in saliva until the Systems Manager had to tell us something to the effect of "don't even think about it, we're keeping the Perq". Can't complain, really... I wouldn't be able to give the Perq a good enough home. It's safe in the storage room. > Seriously, if you are looking out for a PERQ, and don't really mind which > model you get (They are _ALL_ fine machines), you are very likely to find > one. An advert on alt.sys.perq will often get results. I'm looking for any and all good machines. Unfortunately, I suffer from two problems: lack of space and a requirement to ship or lug all of my stuff across Europe. It's distressing, sometimes. Maybe I ought to get a driver's license and buy a 2nd hand truck (oh yes, and lots of razor blades, just in case). :-) > Pity. That machine should be kept running, and not just stuck in a > museum... I agree. Thing is, it's going to the new wing of the Edinburgh Museum (right across the street from DAI), along with (I think) a PDP-8, its ASR-33 and the Freddy, the world's first (and HUGE) intelligent assembly robot, controlled by the PDP-8. They might actually get the machines to work every now and then. We can only hope. > Or like I did when faced with 10 tables covered in DEC spares and the > comment 'Take whatever you want' ! Heh, that was almost the case in there. With some notable exceptions (the Perq), it was a "help yourself" thing. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sat Jun 14 23:31:26 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Beat this haul... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15-Jun-97, Sam Ismail wrote: >ZX-81 with manuals/power supply and... It looks like you may have a machine to try those two T/S-1000 tapes that are on their way to you if that machine works. >Victor 9000 and... >IMSAI 8080! Darn...the way I keep seeing posts about S100 stuff in California, it makes me wish I were out there! In the nearly 14 years I've been here on the east coast, I've yet to run across ANY type of S100 stuff, though the first few years I was out here, I wasn't exactly looking for it either. Maybe at some point I'll have such luck! Congrats Sam!! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and Collector of early, classic microcomputers From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 15 08:29:29 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Atari 800-XL (fwd) Message-ID: Hello folks! I've received the following message from someone who needs to find a good home for his Atari 800XL system (free): If interested, please reply to him. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Greetings! I have a fully functional working 800-XL with expanded memory, a Smith-Corona printer, a good disk drive, a good monitor, a 300-baud modem (whoopee!), enough books and manuals to stock a small library (currently mine), all issues but the first 12 or or of ANTIC, ANALOG, and COMPUTE magazines, and a whole lot of disks, some directly from magazines, some from user groups, most from listings I've typed in. Since I've upgraded to the PC, the Atari system has become expendable, and needs to go -- I need the room. Realizing that, by your email, you are not a hop, skip, OR jump away from me, here's hoping you can put me in touch with someone who'll be able to give my 'baby' a good home. Thanks, Doug Rasmussen 1233 - 167th Ave. S.E. Bellevue, WA 98008 Phone: (425) 747-3846 Fax: (425) 644-8912 email: pptdoug@aa.net ---------------------------------------- --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From transit at primenet.com Sun Jun 15 09:38:05 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Eastern European Computing (was: Re: MSX comments.... (Re:) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > > > And, finally, this project (the MSX) did NOT fail miserably. In the United > > States, teh MSX did fail miserably... but mainly because of the fact that > > it was not widely marketed here. The MSX was VERY popular in Asia and, I > > believe, in Europe. To tell you the truth it still is! I happen to be a [...] > > WoW! The more I hear about this thing the more I want one. It's amazing > that this system was so unknown in the states. It's like discovering a > whole new species. Of course, I'd never heard of the Oric either until I > started doing more research into older computers. I wonder if anything > will come out of the old eastern bloc countries. I hear they did quite a > bit of cloning of western technology. I remember a Byte Magazine from about 10 years ago that had an article about a Russian Apple II clone (called the "Agat"). It used a modified DOS that used the hi-res screens to display Cyrillic characters . . . From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 15 10:00:19 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Eastern European Computing (was: Re: MSX comments.... (Re:) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > I remember a Byte Magazine from about 10 years ago that had an article > about a Russian Apple II clone (called the "Agat"). It used a modified > DOS that used the hi-res screens to display Cyrillic characters . . . And it cost equivalent to about US$15,000 at the time. Without paying royalties to Apple. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 15 08:55:14 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: <9706140238.AA27140@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > All the parts are still available. C&K makes the exact same > front panel switches to this day (they'll run you US$7 or so each, > which really adds up fast!), and 8080A's are still available from > places like Jameco. The date codes won't all be from 1975-76 > when you're done, but who cares? Out of curiosity, are the schematics and/or assembly manual freely available anywhere on-line? --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 15 11:20:28 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: PONG Message-ID: <33A4164C.397D@ndirect.co.uk> Doeas anybody have a photograph of "PONG" the first video game ever? Or where I can find one? I have never seen it and I don't know how it looks like so I will not be able to recognize it if I ever bump into one. Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From kyrrin at wizards.net Sun Jun 15 10:55:48 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Intro (belated) Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970615085548.00f73768@mail.wizards.net> Heh... I should probably have done this just after I subscribed. Oh well... Yes, it's me. Some of you may already have at least gotten an E-mail from me, or spoken to me on the phone. I have a whole garage full of DEC stuff, including several MicroVAX II's, MicroPDP-11/23 and 11/73, appropriate monster hard drives, a couple of Cipher front-loading tape units, various parts and racks, etc. DEC stuff is my current Big Thing, though I regret that I don't have the space nor the power facilities to handle the full-size machines (like the 11/70 or the VAX-11 series). Still, MicroVAXen and the PDP's make for interesting diversions. I've been working with electronics since I was old enough to start tearing things apart (not that I got them back together that often!), have been a ham radio op since 1977, and working with computers on and off since 1978. I currently work at Boeing Defense & Space group, operations, computing support (been there since November). I am happily married, and my mate knew darn well what she was getting into when she married a techie. I'm not a Washington native, though I do live in Kent at the moment (I think of myself as an 'unrepentant Californian'). For those that are curious beyond this post, I invite you to have a look at http://www.wizards.net/technoid. Among other things, I have a listing of both Washington and California electronics-oriented swap meets and surplus stores on the link 'The Wonderful World of Scrounging.' I gladly invite corrections and updates to said list! Let's see, what else...? I try to make at least two trips a year to the Bay Area for scrounging purposes (Sam? Want to get together sometime and introduce me to some of the other local collectors?), and to meet up with a friend of mine in San Jose who shares my interests. We've often done selling or buying trips to the Bay Area swap meets together, having known each other since about 1980. That's about all I can think of at the moment. Caveat emptor! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Jun 15 10:57:00 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Turned over the right rocks... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970615085700.00f33af8@agora.rdrop.com> Well... this may not beat Sam's weekend haul, (and if he finds a 'Straight' 8 from this mysterious person I'm *really* gonna be jealous) but I think it's significant. A note to begin: I'm announcing this here initially as a sort of place holder before I proceed as will be noted below. A bit of a CYA action you might say... --- we begin --- I was doing some *long* overdue cleaning in the Computer Garage this weekend, and finally located some items that I knew were there but had not mentioned since I could not locate them. Even now, I have not located *all* of them, but enough to make their presence known. Somewhere between probably 5-8 years ago, I purchased some equipment, documentation, and supplies from a sale being held by some Digital Research, Inc. staff. Little did I know just what I was coming into. In addition to some S-100 hardware that been used for development, I purchased a series of disks and original DRI binders. To be specific to what I have (re-)located so far, the binders contain complete source listings for MP/M versions 1.1 and 2.0, and CP/M Plus version 3.0 and all supporting utilities and programs. If I recall correctly from when I originally received the materials, I should also have the sources for CP/M version 2.2 and the associated disks. (don't hold me to this until I locate the other boxes tho. B^} ) To be fair, I will be contacting Caldera on Monday and will not be accepting requests for access to these documents until such time as I have verified their standing with Caldera. --- why this message? --- Basically, so that the existance of this material is known in the unlikely event that I should recieve an unfavourable reaction from Caldera. I try to avoid entanglements with those in the legal profession, but past experience has shown that a 'document trail' never hurts... More news as it becomes available... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 15 02:32:29 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Osbourne Executive (fwd) Message-ID: Here's a message I recieved last year after the aquisition of my Osborne Executive that I thought some of you might find interesting: *** Forwarded message, originally written by Arthur N. Borg on 14-Aug-96 *** Dear Jeff, At the time that the Osbourne was being designed, I worked for the company that made the display. I remember clearly asking one of the Osbourne engineers what he thought about the IBM PC that had recently been introduced. He said, that computer has a color display, It is just a toy or video game. Ours is a business computer. The Osbourne executive ran CP/M 3.0 as the operating system. If you have an operating system disk and a format and modem disk. You should have access to everything that you need. Walnut Creek has a CD-ROM with more CP/M material than you could imagine. I (think) that I have a set of manuals but I also (think) that they are in storage in the United States. One caveat. In the manual there is a drawing showing how to connect the parallel port to a Centronics printer. The drawing is totally incorrect. I spent a week re-wiring the dongle so that the printer would work. The Osbourne Executive has two unusual features. First, the printer port is alsso a bi-directional IEE-488 interface and so the machine could control and monitor lab equipment and so on. Also, the type face is loaded into ram at start up and so, you can devise your own type face or use Greek or whatever. We also made some of the displays for the Osbourne 1 and having a 63 character display was very limiting. Fitting 80 characters on a 7 inch display was not easy. You will note if you have a full screen of characters, as you turn the machine around, the earth's magnetic field tends to make the outer characters slip out of view. Osbourne was roundly condemned for announcing this machine too early and killing sales for the Osbourne 1 and thus killing the company. I think that this is a harsh judgement. This was the time that FCC radiation rules were just getting started and everyone was having a hard time meeting them. In plain fact, I think that they didn't realize how big a task they had to pass this test. I saw some figures after the company died. There was no week that they were in business that the company had a positive cash flow. You could see from the curves that somewhere out in the future, they would have a positive cash flow. I think that the investors just felt that there was too much going for IBM and pulled the plug on Osbourne. Best regards, Art Borg ***End of forwarded message Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 15 11:49:13 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 References: Message-ID: <33A41D09.3C83@ndirect.co.uk> Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > > On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > All the parts are still available. C&K makes the exact same > > front panel switches to this day (they'll run you US$7 or so each, > > which really adds up fast!), and 8080A's are still available from > > places like Jameco. The date codes won't all be from 1975-76 > > when you're done, but who cares? > > Out of curiosity, are the schematics and/or assembly manual freely > available anywhere on-line? > > --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- > Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk > The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk I am very interested in building one. How do I find the address of C&K? Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sun Jun 15 08:23:08 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Osbourne Executive (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706151723.NAA02795@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:32:29 +0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Jeff Hellige > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Osbourne Executive (fwd) > Here's a message I recieved last year after the aquisition of my Osborne > Executive that I thought some of you might find interesting: > > > *** Forwarded message, originally written by Arthur N. Borg on 14-Aug-96 *** > Dear Jeff, > At the time that the Osbourne was being designed, I worked for the company > that made the display. I remember clearly asking one of the Osbourne engineers > what > he thought about the IBM PC that had recently been introduced. He said, that > computer has a color display, It is just a toy or video game. Ours is a > business > computer. > The Osbourne executive ran CP/M 3.0 as the operating system. If you have an > operating system disk and a format and modem disk. You should have access to > everything that you need. Walnut Creek has a CD-ROM with more CP/M material > than > you could imagine. Nip! parallel woes.... > The > Osbourne Executive has two unusual features. First, the printer port is alsso > a Snap! Techanical babble.... > character display was very limiting. Fitting 80 characters on a 7 inch display > was > not easy. You will note if you have a full screen of characters, as you turn > the > machine around, the earth's magnetic field tends to make the outer characters > slip > out of view. Osbourne was roundly condemned for announcing this machine too > early > and killing sales for the Osbourne 1 and thus killing the company. I think > that > this is a harsh judgement. This was the time that FCC radiation rules were > just > getting started and everyone was having a hard time meeting them. In plain > fact, I > think that they didn't realize how big a task they had to pass this test. Following this design of these portables... I did repair work on two machines of Osborne 1's, I was horrified at type of this design inside. The power supply is bit weak and nearly tight spot so dead air there. The display cage frame is oddball type, the motherboard looked like it was retrofitted there with too much space in there. Whole thing, the machine did not have any EMI shielding AT ALL. The display would jump in sync with every clunks from the massive drive. There was already two generations and that Osborne 1 is last generation and they're selling like hotcakes but Osborne made mistake of preannoucing new Osborne Ex. :( First generation type uses flat ribbon cable for the keyboard and different face plate. The second generation uses coiled keyboard cable with cleaner look of the faceplate. That's Osborne 1. There is retrofits of add on boards that doubles the capacity of each drives from 90k to 180k each and makes the display to show 80 columns on that dinky 3" display. UGH! The physical design of this Osborne is like that: Top and bottom shell clamps onto "plastic shaped shelf" that I will call it shelf. The faceplate is kept in place by 6 or 8 screws around the edges of the both shells. The underside of this shelf have four stilts with metal lugs that held the bit smaller bare retangular motherboard and amazing thing, it has no support in middle of that long motherboard! The monitor sit in middle on raised part of the upside shelf with both full height drive in both sides. All three devices are secured from bottom with screws. The power supply is just loosely nestled into a insulated cavity behind one drive. Pretty iffy design if you ask me! Anyway, that company had the fresh start overall but the Canadian company had the right stuff to make a true great solid machine called Hyperion which I have in storage. True PC clone. The internals is very solid, no dead air and it does have a variable speed fan that runs but speeds up when drive is in use. Too bad, I wished they did redevelop the Hyperion again with 100 percent compatible BIOS and better display , the previous one is about 80 percent compatible. I know some users still use this Hyperions somewhere in that town of mine. :) Hyperions monitor size is about 7" diagonal and uses amber monochrome which is more pleasing to look at and very sharp. Both drives is stacked on. Overall the package is very compact about 10" tall and 18 inches wide, depth is about foot. Can fit that machine under the 747 chair easily which ad did showed! Memory is 256k standard but you can plug in external small memory board to bring it up to 640k via the expansion port! It has modem as a option, parallel, serial standard and expansion port. Also there is a option that allows you to use external hard drive on it. > > > Best regards, > > Art Borg > > ***End of forwarded message > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers > > Troll From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 15 13:32:36 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Classic semi-portables Message-ID: With the current thread on Osborne's machines (he was a great writer about computer concepts, a fair engineer, and a _lousy_ businessman -- level of incompetence at work ala the Peter Principle), I realise that besides Kaypro, there is another line of pre-laptops I'm interested in. If anybody gets a line on an available Otrona CP/M system, I am very interested. I thought it was the prettiest luggable around, even though I continue very loyal to my TRS-80 4P. What ever happened to Otrona, anyway? Did they get absorbed by Olivetti and forced to make pathetic PC semi-compatibles for AT&T? (The Olivetti/AT&T PC 6300 had a video connector that carried 70vdc to the monitor from a connector that looked like a PC parallel port [female DB-25] until a customer mistook which connector was which, I thought that _nothing_ could kill a TRS-80 Daisy Wheel Printer II -- the aroma of semiconductors reverting to rocks in both printer and CPU demonstrated that something indeed could). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From kyrrin at wizards.net Sun Jun 15 13:34:49 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: More FREE! to good home... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970615113449.00f772e0@mail.wizards.net> In looking through my garage last night, I found an old (about '84 vintage) NCR I-Tower computer system. 68020 based, this particular beastie ran a variant of Unix customized for NCR. I would far rather have the space for DEC stuff. With that in mind, anyone who cares to visit Kent, WA (east hill) can haul this beast away for the asking. Worst case, the main tower has an integral UPS; you could probably adapt such to other systems. Drop me an E-mail if interested, or give me a call at (253) 639-9555. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 15 04:57:01 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Classic semi-portables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15-Jun-97, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: >If anybody gets a line on an available Otrona CP/M system, I am very >interested. I thought it was the prettiest luggable around, even though Ward, VERY bad timing for this post. A couple of months ago, I was talking to a guy who I had bought something else from, and he had decided to offer me the Otrona that he had. Unfortunately, I didn't have the $125 he wanted for it, it's additional external monitor, manuals and software, so I passed on it. It just happens that I finally deleted all of the correspondance with him about 3 days ago while doing some badly needed maintenance on my system. I'll see if I can't come up with his email address and such from somewhere. Jeff Jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sun Jun 15 14:07:54 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Wanted In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970615113449.00f772e0@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970615200754.0068598c@post.keme.co.uk> Wanted Vic 20 Modem, C64 Freezer cart. Oh and another Vectrex would also be nice !!! Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 15 14:12:20 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:23 2005 Subject: Classic semi-portables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > VERY bad timing for this post. A couple of months ago, I was talking to a > guy who I had bought something else from, and he had decided to offer me the > Otrona that he had. Unfortunately, I didn't have the $125 he wanted for it, > it's additional external monitor, manuals and software, so I passed on it. It > just happens that I finally deleted all of the correspondance with him about 3 > days ago while doing some badly needed maintenance on my system. I'll see if I > can't come up with his email address and such from somewhere. External monitor? The Otrona (and Cromemco and Apple and several other lines) dealer next door to the RSCC where I did tech support in downtown L.A. never had or mentioned anything like that, and neither as I recall did Jerry Pournelle in print or in person. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 15 14:44:43 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Atari 800-XL (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > Greetings! > > I have a fully functional working 800-XL with expanded memory, a > Smith-Corona printer, a good disk drive, a good monitor, a 300-baud > modem (whoopee!), enough books and manuals to stock a small library > (currently mine), all issues but the first 12 or or of ANTIC, ANALOG, > and COMPUTE magazines, and a whole lot of disks, some directly from > magazines, some from user groups, most from listings I've typed in. > Since I've upgraded to the PC, the Atari system has become expendable, > and needs to go -- I need the room. > > Doug Rasmussen > 1233 - 167th Ave. S.E. > Bellevue, WA 98008 This looks like a job for Kai! Lucky bastard, this is a good lot. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From MoeHoward1 at aol.com Sun Jun 15 15:10:17 1997 From: MoeHoward1 at aol.com (MoeHoward1@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <970615160952_-1832037970@emout12.mail.aol.com> Hello! I have a Victor 9000, cheap to good home. The technological cutting edge in 1979, it has a keyboard that includes a 1/2 and 1/4 key, a wonderfully massive dot matrix printer, and a version of Wordstar that is truly hideous. Plus other software. The thing seems to run on DOS 1.25. It has been in my garage for years, and I hate to see such a monstrosity go without victims. Is there someone out there who would like to have it? Please respond to MoeHoward1@aol.com or David.Stevens@pgw.com. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 15 22:14:53 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Terak 8510a In-Reply-To: ; from "Alexios Chouchoulas" at Jun 13, 97 11:28 pm Message-ID: <199706152114.2903@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > Oh, you lucky thing!. The Terak is a machine I'm looking out for, and I've > > never managed to find one. Whatever you do, look after it. > > I hadn't heard of it a month ago, but the moment I read about it I just > wanted one. Guess what happens a few weeks after that. Can't be abysmally Yes, there are machines like that - in my case, the PDP8 was one of them. On the other hand, I didn't even know what a PERQ was when I was offered one - it was basically 'Would you like a PERQ - we have one going spare', but I fell in love as soon as I saw it... > unlucky /all/ your life. I may not have a PDP-{8,11}, but I have something I thought the Terak had a Qbus backplane and a standard LSI11 CPU card. In which case it's as close to a PDP11 as anything non-DEC ever can be... Talking of obscure PDP11-related machines, has anyone else ever come across the Tektronix 8530 etc systems. These machines were sold as micro development systems and lived in 2 racks - one contained an LSI11 (or PDP11/23) CPU card + RAM + disk controller + I/O + drives (either a couple of 8" floppies or one floppy and a Micropolis 1200 hard disk), while the other contained the development options -- in-circuit emulators, logic analyser, EPROM programmer, etc. They ran either a much-hacked RT11 or a much-hacked Unix. > extremely close. And it's my first ever non-Motorola/Zilog/MOS platform. :-) You mean you don't have _anything_ with an Intel CPU (4004, 4040, 8008, 8080, 8085, 80x86, 80x88)? > > > > Any ideas as to which model? If it's the long-lost PERQ T4, serial number > > DEMO01, I'll not be responsible for my actions :-).... > > I can't identify them, I'm afraid. It's got the (typical, I think) > portrait screen and a big floor unit with a single 8" floppy drive. I doubt The portrait screen means it's probably a 1, 1a or 2T1. While _all_ models could use such a monitor, the 2T2 and 2T4 tended to come with 19" landscape displays. > > Seriously, if you are looking out for a PERQ, and don't really mind which > > model you get (They are _ALL_ fine machines), you are very likely to find > > one. An advert on alt.sys.perq will often get results. > > I'm looking for any and all good machines. Unfortunately, I suffer from > two problems: lack of space and a requirement to ship or lug all of my stuff Uh-Oh. I think we all ran out of space _years_ ago.... > across Europe. It's distressing, sometimes. Maybe I ought to get a driver's > license and buy a 2nd hand truck (oh yes, and lots of razor blades, just in > case). :-) Moving a large collection of machines is a right pain - in my case, even considering fitting all the shipping clamps, parking the heads, locking things into the racks, etc would take a couple of days. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 15 17:49:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <970615160952_-1832037970@emout12.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 MoeHoward1@aol.com wrote: > I have a Victor 9000, cheap to good home. The technological cutting edge in > 1979, it has a keyboard that includes a 1/2 and 1/4 key, a wonderfully > massive dot matrix printer, and a version of Wordstar that is truly hideous. > Plus other software. The thing seems to run on DOS 1.25. It has been in my > garage for years, and I hate to see such a monstrosity go without victims. > Is there someone out there who would like to have it? Please respond to > MoeHoward1@aol.com or David.Stevens@pgw.com. 1979? The Victor 9000 came out in 1985/86 according to previous discussions. Indeed it would have been the "technological cutting edge" in 1979, and for quite some time as it would have pre-dated the computer it was supposed to be semi-compatible with. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 15 17:54:31 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Terak 8510a In-Reply-To: <199706152114.2903@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > Moving a large collection of machines is a right pain - in my case, even > considering fitting all the shipping clamps, parking the heads, locking > things into the racks, etc would take a couple of days. This I can personally attest to. I am ashamed to admit, and must confess, that during my move last year, at one point during my desperate attempts to complete my move before my deadline, I actually paused to consider why in the hell I have so many damn computers I drag with me all over? I actually re-considered the point of it all. Luckily I over came my feeling of helplessness and managed to get everything packed and driven over to my new place. It was late at night, and this was like the 8th load of the day, and I STILL had stuff left yet, and it was around 1:30AM, and I was tired. Forgive me all, forgive me. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 15 09:29:04 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Classic semi-portables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15-Jun-97, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: >External monitor? The Otrona (and Cromemco and Apple and several other >lines) dealer next door to the RSCC where I did tech support in downtown >L.A. never had or mentioned anything like that, and neither as I recall >did Jerry Pournelle in print or in person. That's what he said. It was an Attache, and he definately said it had some sort of external monitor on it. I know my Executive has an output for one. BTW, all I can come up with was that his name is Roy Tally. I started conversing with him because he saw one of my posts on Usenet. I'm not even sure which group he was from though. Sorry I can't be more specific. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 15 20:14:30 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: PONG References: <33A4164C.397D@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33A49376.66B9@rain.org> e.tedeschi wrote: > > Doeas anybody have a photograph of "PONG" the first video game ever? Or > where I can find one? I have never seen it and I don't know how it looks > like so I will not be able to recognize it if I ever bump into one. > I don't know if I have any of the Pong advertisements or not, but I most likely have something close. It is pretty easy to recognize as the cabinet was about 27" or so wide, about 30" deep, and stood somewhere around 6 feet high. It had a black and white monitor. Of course, the "Pong" on the marquee is kind of a giveaway :). The front panel had two knobs, one for each player, but I don't recall if there were push buttons labeled "One Player", "Two Player" and "Start" although I *think* they did. If you aren't aware, it was manufactured by Atari about 1972 (don't recall the exact date.) A good place to ask would be rec.collecting.video.arcade (or the name is something like that.) From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 15 20:19:28 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: MIT flea... Message-ID: <199706160119.AA12465@world.std.com> Well I'm back from the flea... I did sell two of the COCOs and a few other odds and ends. The bulk of the pile remains as "it wasn't VGA or PC". Of the more interesting things I'd like to sell for nominal fee or trade: TRS80 docs and tapes... moto6800D1 pristine with docs MDS800 mostly complete The s100 memory cards, s100 crate, Anadex DP-8000 printer working and docs. In the process I aquired a real fine PDP11/23+ with RX02. It's excess and has V4 and v5 DOCs and install kits along with apparently two sets of X11 diags. Also there is a MiniMINC LSI11 kit with mincBaisc. There is an unopened (shrink intact) box of 8" media. The 11/23 is has 512k of ram 4 serial ports and a RX02 disk system that looks operational. This is also excess... don't ask, call it a rescue. Anyone interested let me know as I'm trying to make room for a PDP-8/e/m/f! Allison From BigLouS at aol.com Sun Jun 15 21:35:33 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions Message-ID: <970615223529_-1529763573@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-12 22:38:21 EDT, marvin@rain.org (Marvin) wrote: > Back when the Atari 400 was introduced, I got hooked on Space Invaders. > I found the Atari and other Joysticks to be a complete waste when it > came to playing Space Invaders ..... Why didn't you use the Atari paddles? From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sun Jun 15 22:50:47 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: So what exactly is a Victor 9000??? Just another PC clone? Les From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 15 23:01:27 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 questions References: <970615223529_-1529763573@emout01.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33A4BA97.4F89@rain.org> BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-06-12 22:38:21 EDT, marvin@rain.org (Marvin) wrote: > > > Back when the Atari 400 was introduced, I got hooked on Space Invaders. > > I found the Atari and other Joysticks to be a complete waste when it > > came to playing Space Invaders ..... > > Why didn't you use the Atari paddles? 1) Didn't have a set, 2) didn't realize they would work :). From marcw at lightside.com Sun Jun 15 19:52:32 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: PONG Message-ID: <199706160411.VAA00362@covina.lightside.com> > > I don't know if I have any of the Pong advertisements or not, but I most > likely have something close. It is pretty easy to recognize as the > cabinet was about 27" or so wide, about 30" deep, and stood somewhere > around 6 feet high. Pong had a monitor?!? I didn't know that. I have Atari's Pong here which is just the console. First video game we ever got. I plan to pull it out of retirement for a 1970's party being planned. Hmm, I'd like to find a pic of that 6ft beast myself. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org IRC Nick: Senshi Channel: #dos http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html -- DOS Internet Tools From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 15 23:33:45 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Extra Stuff References: <33A4164C.397D@ndirect.co.uk> <33A49376.66B9@rain.org> Message-ID: <33A4C229.3D92@rain.org> This weekend was interesting for me also. I went up to the Santa Maria Amateur Radio Swapfest and found a few things. After I got back, I read a message where someone was looking for a VIC 20 modem, and of course I saw one in the box up there. I thought about picking it up, but decided against it since I think I already have one . I did run into some other interesting stuff (although nothing like Sams good fortune!!!) I picked up another TRS-80 Model 4 desktop unit with some docs, an Apple II Plus with 2 disk drives (no docs), and a Coco 2 (no docs or cables.) I really was hoping someone else would buy them and put them to good use, but since they were still available after everything was over ... Oh well, I still haven't put anything in the bathrooms yet :). I did run into a couple of interesting boards. The first is labeled "Digital Technology, Engineering Extension, Univ. of Wisconsin-Madison" and looks to be part of a digital trainer. It has 4 chips in sockets ( three 7400's and one 7405), six Red LED's, six SPDT switches, a pot, and a place where some sort of TO220 style transistor, voltage regulator or whatever goes, and a number of terminating resistors. It seems to have places where interconnect wire can be plugged in for interconnecting the LEDs, Switchs, and the 7400's (which are each arranged as two R-S flip flops.) The date on the approx. 5" x 7" circuit board is 2/76. If anyone has any further information on this board, I would be most interested! The second board is a plug-in Metric Systems Corp. MC00110 Logic Inverter board. What makes it interesting is that the circuits are all made of discrete components and the entire board seems to have the traces gold plated. If anyone needs the computers I picked up, let me know as those types are already in the collection. The possibility that someone else needs them is the real reason I picked them up. From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 15 23:40:28 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: PONG References: <199706160411.VAA00362@covina.lightside.com> Message-ID: <33A4C3BC.1FD5@rain.org> marcw@lightside.com wrote: > > > > > I don't know if I have any of the Pong advertisements or not, but I most > > likely have something close. It is pretty easy to recognize as the > > cabinet was about 27" or so wide, about 30" deep, and stood somewhere > > around 6 feet high. > > Pong had a monitor?!? I didn't know that. > I have Atari's Pong here which is just the console. > First video game we ever got. I plan to pull it out of retirement for > a 1970's party being planned. > > Hmm, I'd like to find a pic of that 6ft beast myself. > > Marc > Hmmm, I *assumed* the request was for the *first* Pong which was a coin operated game video game. It didn't occur to me that he might have meant the first home game machine which I think was *also* Pong! From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Jun 15 23:29:31 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Printers and Finds of the WeekFrom: Sam Ismail To: Classic Computer Discussion Message-ID: <33A4C12B.203A@goldrush.com> References: <199706150702.AAA14700@lists3.u.washington.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RE Printers... Gorilla Banana, Tandy DMP 100, Commodore 1525, etc. It was a standard printer mechanism by some manufacturer (I suspect Shikosha (sp)) All were 7 pin characters. I remember some early Commodore Printers (before the 1525) were Epson units (one based in the MX70?) I also remember, for the PETs, our school had a SWTP dot matrix printer. Pretty nifty little bugger, no fancy coverings, you got to see all the gears (printed on 4" wide roll paper as I recall) liked like an early ticker machine or something like that. They also had a Commodore 4023 and a Diablo 630 (heavy as heck and made quite a racket too). I have owned a couple curiosities such as the Commodore 1520 printer plotter (another model type that bore through many company brands) four little tiny pens. Made neat sounds when it was drawing text and lines. :) I still have my Citizen iDP560cd printer, prints on wide register tape (2.?? inches) in two colors (Black/Red) has a Commodore interface and all that. (nowadays you usually see that model printer -w/parallel interface- hooked up to merchant ATM units). Other now gone units MPS-801 and Star NP-10. Other (classic) printers I now have are a Riteman F+ (precursor to the ProWriter Jr.) it has a very short ribbon (something like 20") but a unique feed system (able to print on index cards and use the first line of a page...). Everything else is somewhat modern late model dot-matrix and ink jets. Oh, and a Commodore 8023 wide-carriage dot matrix for my PETs. ------------- RE: Sam Ismail Subject: Beat this haul... >Ok, the weekend's not even over, and here's how I did: [snip!} >Commodore 64, Commodore 64C (two of 'em, one seems to be this weird clone >since the plastic looks different from the other one and it has no >markings) It's probably an older 64 in that slimline case that was selling a few years back to make an older 64 more resemble a 64C. I recall the ads in Compute's Gazzette and RUN. *** light applause *** that certainly was a haul as well as a good little adventure! Thanks for sharing it with us. :) I know of a Salvation Army in Oakdale that has a small basket full of TI carts including some nice AtariSoft titles... ;) Next time when I get there (and if they are there and are cheap enough) I'll pick some up. --------- Now for my haul (which was today, Sunday). At the Flea Market: 2 Atari Power Packs (15.3va and 31 va) $3.00 now all I need is some Atari DOS and utility disks (HINT! HINT!) 1 Commodore 64C power supply $1.00 a couple printer switchboxes $1.00 ea. Toshiba external SCSI CD-ROM drive (seems to be partially working) $3.00 14.4 Modem $2.00 External Amiga Drive $1.00 At the Thrift Store: Commodore SuperPET (Gosh was I lucky) $20.00 (w/Wordpro plus quick referencebooklet, PET to IEEE-488 cable, power cord and "the Manager" dongle still attached) Commodore 4040 Dual Drive $5.00 3 IEEE-488 cables $2.00 each The SuperPET isn't responding, but still worth it, (I cracked it open to see the guts, there are two daughterboards connected to the motherboard the topmost seems to be the RAM (which makes the computer 96k), and I assume below that is the 6809 co-processor and RS-232 driver. Now I have to hunt down more information... :) Four toggle switches peek out on the side which allow for the storing of the language you wish to use, (setting it to ROM mode did not seem to change the situation) Have yet to test the 4040, I hope it is functional. So far everything from the Flea Market seems to work (I have yet to test the 64 supply though). Nice day, though I think my checkbook is feeling a little thin... Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 16 00:10:50 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > So what exactly is a Victor 9000??? > Just another PC clone? Not just another clone. It's actually a very nice system. But I'm no expert, and I haven't had enough time to play with it yet. I'll allow the resident Victor 9000 experts to fill you in on the details. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 16 01:21:43 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: PONG References: <199706160411.VAA00362@covina.lightside.com> <33A4C3BC.1FD5@rain.org> Message-ID: <33A4DB77.4142@ndirect.co.uk> Marvin wrote: > > marcw@lightside.com wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't know if I have any of the Pong advertisements or not, but I most > > > likely have something close. It is pretty easy to recognize as the > > > cabinet was about 27" or so wide, about 30" deep, and stood somewhere > > > around 6 feet high. > > > > Pong had a monitor?!? I didn't know that. > > I have Atari's Pong here which is just the console. > > First video game we ever got. I plan to pull it out of retirement for > > a 1970's party being planned. > > > > Hmm, I'd like to find a pic of that 6ft beast myself. > > > > Marc > > > > Hmmm, I *assumed* the request was for the *first* Pong which was a coin > operated game video game. It didn't occur to me that he might have > meant the first home game machine which I think was *also* Pong! Aaaah! That's more like it! What I meant was the home video game console. Now back to the original question: does anybody know where I can get a photo of it or at least a description). Thank you enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 16 01:57:18 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Printers and Finds of the WeekFrom: Sam Ismail To: Classic Computer Discussion References: <33A4C12B.203A@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <33A4E3CE.44EE@rain.org> Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > > At the Thrift Store: > Commodore SuperPET (Gosh was I lucky) $20.00 (w/Wordpro plus quick > referencebooklet, PET to IEEE-488 cable, power cord and "the Manager" > dongle still attached) I am not familiar with the "SuperPET"; where does it fit in with the rest of the Commodore line? It sounds like you also had a pretty good "haul" this weekend! From pcoad at crl.com Mon Jun 16 04:26:30 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Weekend Acquisitions III In-Reply-To: <33A211A6.5A94@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: This is a little long and likely boring. You have been warned! I had a reasonably good weekend as well. Not as good as some, but I am pretty happy with the results. Here is how it went: Friday morning I visit one of the local thrifts and pick up some old books: Bound Unix manuals from Bell Labs. First edition K&R Early 80's Intel product catalog. Xenix text processing book. I saw a VIC-20 with tape drive, tapes, and a bunch of cartridges. Unfortunately I had only $3 in my pocket. (Don't try this at home kids, I am a trained professional.) I left with only the books. Friday afternoon I plan to leave work at 3:30, but don't get out until 6:30. Go to bank. Get money. Go back to thrift. The VIC was still there. Bought the box of stuff for $5. This included VIC-20 (still untested), CN2 (my 3rd!), 3K, 8K, and 16K memory carts, super expander cart (with manual), Forth Cart with box and manual, programmer's aid cart, machine language monitor cart, 7 cart games, and a few cassette games. Saturday morning Went to the electronics/computer/junk sale. Too much PC and Mac stuff, and not enough junk. Met Sam Ismail. Looked around at everything. Sam left for greener pastures. Bought two Sun keyboards (type 3 and type 4). (One day I'll have a full working Sun if I have to buy it one chip at a time.) At this point I had seen all there was to be seen, and I still had an hour to kill so I went off to visit a few other places and picked up another K&R, a C Programmer's Handbook (AT&T Bell Labs, can you tell I have a thing for them and C/Unix?), and a few loose Atari 400/800 carts (BASIC, logo, chess, and something else) for $1. Saturday noon Went back to the sale and met up with Uncle Roger and his girlfriend. We had an excellent lunch. Swapped a few stories. Went home and explained to my wife why I NEED 2 more Sun keyboards. Saturday afternoon Picked up 7 boxes of old software. This was from the same guy that gave George Lin that load of hardware a few weeks back. I haven't had time to go through all of it in detail, but there are several early Microsoft packages (including windows v2 and possibly v1), PC-DOS 1.1, DBase III, WordStar, PC and PC jr. technical manuals, 7 or 8 Borland packages, and a load of other stuff. Several things are still in shrink wrap. Most of this stuff will be taking up room that I would rather devote to more interesting (to me) stuff. Once I have a complete list I will be offering most for sale or trade. Anyone collect PC jr. stuff? On the way home I visited bubble wrap mecca. Greg Mast tipped me off on this place. Thanks Greg! I filled up the rest of my car with bubble wrap and headed home. Add to this 2 graduation parties and making up to my wife for being gone most of Saturday, and this was a pretty busy weekend. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From ccm at sentex.net Mon Jun 16 08:59:16 1997 From: ccm at sentex.net (Commercial Computing Museum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <199706161359.JAA04622@granite.sentex.net> I'm so excited...this is my first post to this great group. In 1981 I left NCR to work for Victor (Canada) Limited to organize a tech support team and assist a calculator saleforce become successful sellers of microcomputers - namely the Victor 9000 or Vickie as it came to be called. The Victor 9000 came out in 1982. It was produced by a company called Sirius Computer Corp. Mr. Chuck Peddle designed the 9000 and ran Sirius. Peddle had preivously worked for Commodre and designed the PET. By golly, before that he worked on the 6502 chip (the CPU in early Apples). Now here's more corporate geneology stuff. Victor used to be called Victor Comptometer. It was owned by the Victor family of Chicago and was bought-out by the Kidde Corp a conglomerate. Kidde also invested in Sirius. The 9000 was a machine designed for people. It came with a non-glare monochrome monitor on a tilt and swivel-base - hey we're talking 1981 here! It had an ergonomically-considerate keyboard, small footprint, and oh yah, it had a voice chip on the motherboard. The last step of POST (power-on, self-test) was the 9000 telling you "Hello, I am a Victor 9000." I get a kick out of listening to the Comdex 1990 keynote speech by Bill Gates (the one when he announced the Information at Your Fingertips campaign), because he declared that someday computers will have voice-digitization on the motherboard. Did you hear that Chuck? Unforunately the 9000 didn't last long. Sirius had grand plans to become the next IBM, they absorbed Victor, sold lots of machines (a single order of 4000 to Ford Motors), then promptly went bankrupt. Victor Canada was closed down in the mid-1980s. The 9000 came in two cases. Early (first) models housed the processor in a rectangular case. Later models used a niffty angular case. I don't know if voice digitization made it into the angular case. My 9000 occupies a place in my subcollection of Unique Systems - systems that were, well let's say they were ahead of their times. Other machines here include the Lisa, Workslate, Hyperion, Star, Apple III, DG/One, etc. Hope this helps you, I know it sure was fun for me. Yours in good faith. >Hello! > >I have a Victor 9000, cheap to good home. The technological cutting edge in >1979, it has a keyboard that includes a 1/2 and 1/4 key, a wonderfully >massive dot matrix printer, and a version of Wordstar that is truly hideous. > Plus other software. The thing seems to run on DOS 1.25. It has been in my >garage for years, and I hate to see such a monstrosity go without victims. > Is there someone out there who would like to have it? Please respond to >MoeHoward1@aol.com or David.Stevens@pgw.com. > > From idavis at comland.com Mon Jun 16 09:46:14 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: PONG Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970616144614.008ca0d8@mail.comland.com > At 06:21 AM 6/16/97 +0000, you wrote: >Aaaah! That's more like it! What I meant was the home video game >console. Now back to the original question: does anybody know where I >can get a photo of it or at least a description). Thank you > >enrico Enrico, Try this site. It has a picture of an atari pong machine: http://members.aol.com/cvendel/vaporware.html Hope this helps. Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, idavis@comland.com | check out the Classic Computer Rescue List - indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html From starling at umr.edu Mon Jun 16 11:44:55 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: from "Brett" at Jun 13, 97 09:34:04 pm Message-ID: <199706161644.LAA06195@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > So - does any body know where I can find a way into Xenix? Xenix is now owned by the SCO group, I believe. There is a Usenet newsgroup dedicated to Xenix called comp.unix.xenix.sco. I don't think that my school carries the comp.unix hierarchy, but it's easily accessable via dejanews (www.dejanews.com) or altavista if your ISP doesn't carry it either. There might be some old Xenix hacks hanging around in there... or you may be able to get someone to send you some bootable media that'll get you to a root shell. > Are there any archives of CERT Advisories on glaring holes I can > worm my way into editing the passwd file or something? I realize > I could run CRACK but since that isn't what I normally do for FUN > I was hoping the mass intellegence and huge experience in this list > might be able to help 8-) Mmmm... would be kinda fun. Too bad you can't plug 'er into a network and let me have a hack at her. Already having an account would definately help. But if you want, you could e-mail me the passwd file and I'd set up an idle machine to cracking it and see what turns up. It'd be worth a shot... However... I think that getting bootable media (tape or floppy) is going to be your best bet... or else try to find the original owner/user. chris starling starling@umr.edu From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 16 11:39:53 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Weekend Acquisitions III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > bank. Get money. Go back to thrift. The VIC was still there. > Bought the box of stuff for $5. This included VIC-20 (still untested), > CN2 (my 3rd!), 3K, 8K, and 16K memory carts, super expander cart (with > manual), Forth Cart with box and manual, programmer's aid cart, machine > language monitor cart, 7 cart games, and a few cassette games. Nice! > On the way home I visited bubble wrap mecca. Greg Mast tipped me off > on this place. Thanks Greg! I filled up the rest of my car with bubble > wrap and headed home. How much is this stuff at the place you went to? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 16 11:46:31 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <199706161359.JAA04622@granite.sentex.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Commercial Computing Museum wrote: > The Victor 9000 came out in 1982. It was produced by a company called Sirius > Computer Corp. Mr. Chuck Peddle designed the 9000 and ran Sirius. Peddle had > preivously worked for Commodre and designed the PET. By golly, before that > he worked on the 6502 chip (the CPU in early Apples). > > Now here's more corporate geneology stuff. Victor used to be called Victor > Comptometer. It was owned by the Victor family of Chicago and was bought-out > by the Kidde Corp a conglomerate. Kidde also invested in Sirius. As an aside, Sirius was based out of Scott's Valley, California, which is just ten minutes or so north of Santa Cruz. It was located there so that Mr. Peddle could attract the engineers who lived in Santa Cruz and drove over the hill each day into San Jose to work would defect to him. > The 9000 was a machine designed for people. It came with a non-glare > monochrome monitor on a tilt and swivel-base - hey we're talking 1981 here! > It had an ergonomically-considerate keyboard, small footprint, and oh yah, > it had a voice chip on the motherboard. The last step of POST (power-on, > self-test) was the 9000 telling you "Hello, I am a Victor 9000." I get a > kick out of listening to the Comdex 1990 keynote speech by Bill Gates (the > one when he announced the Information at Your Fingertips campaign), because > he declared that someday computers will have voice-digitization on the > motherboard. Did you hear that Chuck? Hmmm, mine doesn't greet me. Must have a bad attitude (or a bad synthesizer chip). > The 9000 came in two cases. Early (first) models housed the processor in a > rectangular case. Later models used a niffty angular case. I don't know if > voice digitization made it into the angular case. I have the rectangular case, and as discussed previous, I saw the angular cased variety at a swap meet but didn't know what to make of it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com Mon Jun 16 12:16:00 1997 From: FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com (Faiaz, Michael C. HSD) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: HELP! Message-ID: Does anyone have any info on where I can find accessories and parts for my old PC8500 (NEC) laptop? Thanks Mike From clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com Mon Jun 16 12:51:56 1997 From: clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com (clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Tektronix 8530 (was re: Terak 8510a) Message-ID: <97Jun16.110613pdt.32262@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> (Embedded image moved ard12 @ eng.cam.ac.uk to file: 06/15/97 02:14 PM PIC24988.PCX) Please respond to classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: classiccmp @ u.washington.edu cc: (bcc: Clark Geisler/NORTEL-NSM) Subject: Re: Terak 8510a >Talking of obscure PDP11-related machines, has anyone else ever come >across the Tektronix 8530 etc systems. These machines were sold as micro >development systems and lived in 2 racks - one contained an LSI11 (or >PDP11/23) CPU card + RAM + disk controller + I/O + drives (either a couple >of 8" floppies or one floppy and a Micropolis 1200 hard disk), while the >other contained the development options -- in-circuit emulators, logic >analyser, EPROM programmer, etc. They ran either a much-hacked RT11 or a >much-hacked Unix. This sounds a lot like a system I saw installed new at my alma mater (University of British Columbia) my graduation year (1983). It was a Tektronix development system with LSI11 CPU running UNIX. There were a number of terminals attached, and it was used to teach computer process control concepts to non-computer eng. types. I remember seeing various pumps and tanks connected to it. I never used it seriously myself, but just logged on to play with it: this was the first Unix system I had seen. I wasn't very impressed with it at the time: whenever I used the 'man' program, the pages would just scroll up the screen (no pause), then it cleared the screen, leaving the prompt. Clark Geisler 'just have an Amiga 1000 and a VAX 11/730' -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 2427 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970616/d724f8eb/attachment-0001.obj From clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com Mon Jun 16 12:55:11 1997 From: clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com (clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <97Jun16.110951pdt.32262@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> (Embedded image moved dastar @ crl.com to file: 06/15/97 03:49 PM PIC18303.PCX) Please respond to classiccmp@u.washington.edu To: classiccmp @ u.washington.edu cc: (bcc: Clark Geisler/NORTEL-NSM) Subject: Re: Victor 9000 Sam wrote: >1979? The Victor 9000 came out in 1985/86 according to previous >discussions. Indeed it would have been the "technological cutting edge" >in 1979, and for quite some time as it would have pre-dated the computer >it was supposed to be semi-compatible with. I recall seeing Victor 9000's newly installed in a computer lab at the University of British Columbia in 1983. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 2427 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970616/7b1c2e0c/attachment-0001.obj From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 16 13:30:03 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: PONG Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205300DF5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Pong is not the first video game. Nolan Bushnell, who later founded Atari, did Pong. Several years before Pong, Nolan created a more sophisticated game called Computer Space, built by Nutting and Associates. Computer Space was the first arcade video game. Atari home Pong was the first home video game. Magnavox Odyssey1 was the first home video game system. Trust me, I own all of them. Kai > -----Original Message----- > From: e.tedeschi [SMTP:e.tedeschi@ndirect.co.uk] > Sent: Sunday, June 15, 1997 9:20 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: PONG > > Doeas anybody have a photograph of "PONG" the first video game ever? > Or > where I can find one? I have never seen it and I don't know how it > looks > like so I will not be able to recognize it if I ever bump into one. > > Thanks > > enrico > -- > ================================================================ > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > website > ================================================================ > visit Brighton: > From BigLouS at aol.com Mon Jun 16 15:49:17 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Aim65's for sale Message-ID: <970616164425_-1161253946@emout07.mail.aol.com> Thought this may be of interest to some of you. His email address should be Mikeooo1@aol.com Lou Subj: Aim 65 single board micro Date: 97-06-16 16:20:52 EDT From: Mikeooo1 I have several Aim 65's in new condition,a hot item in the 80's it was the precursor to the pc.Features a single board microprocessor complete with display,printer,keyboard,power supply,with a 6502 cpu.Fully functional but also a nice collector's item. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 16 16:13:48 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Weekend Acquisitions III Message-ID: <199706162113.AA08121@world.std.com> > First edition K&R I ahve stapled version with bell labs technical report #31 "the C programming language" by D.M. Richie, and M.E. lesk. october 1975 it has hand scribbles re: tiny C as it was part of communication with Jon Gibson. Got it back around 79 while visiting Bell labs homdel on a business call. No offers acepted as it's my working copy for C and my bible! Allison From spc at armigeron.com Mon Jun 16 16:34:21 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Beat this haul... In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 14, 97 08:08:37 pm Message-ID: <199706162134.RAA27143@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Sam Ismail once stated: > > Data General One (Model 2) laptop. Two questions: How did the model 2 > differ from the model 1? And I didn't get a power supply with this, but > was told by a couple people all it requires is a special three-prong > power cord. The receptacle is an oval with three conductors. Anyone > know about this? - $15 > I have a Data General One laptop (I think the Model 1 - or at least the first year they came out). The power supply is a brick that plugs into the wall using a standard computer power cable (that comes with PCs now a days) and the other end is a two wire cord that plugs into a recepticle in the back of the computer (I think my is two wires, but it's at home right now). I got the unit several years ago (possibly 92 or 93) with a flaky LCD connection. When the ribbon cable (from the mother board to the LCD screen) finally broke, I was able to get a replacement from Data General itself (!) for about $20. You might want to try contacting them directly for more information about the DG1. -spc (It's still in use ... ) From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 16 17:16:15 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: An Apple Weekend! Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053192FD@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Well, not a bad weekend for Apple stuff. I visited two swap meets and a dozen thrifts, and came up with the following stuff (the weird thing is, all of my traditional good spots were dry, and all the dry ones had good stuff -- and not only that, these systems weren't complete but instead all the parts came from different locations!) - An Apple II - An Apple II with RAM expansion card, Grappler card, 80 column card - An Apple /// with ProFile hard disk, second floppy and Monitor /// - An Apple ///+ with ProFile hard disk, second floppy, serial card, and a "///+//" Apple II emulation card (!) - Another ProFile hard disk (that makes 3!) - Apple /// JOYSTICK !!!!! (egads) - Two Apple II series joysticks - Apple II series game paddle set Plus: - Three Central Point Copy II Option Boards (copy Apple, Mac, TRS-80, CP/M formats on PCs) - Two 8-bit Plus Hard Card 20's - Silicon Valley ADP50 (run IDE hard drives in an IBM PC) Kai From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 16 17:28:49 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: available for sale or trade Message-ID: <199706162228.AA02360@world.std.com> I found these while looking for the docs for my SWTP CT1024 terminal board that I'm resurecting (it works) These are available for sale or trade: SWTP PR40 schematic and wiring drawing (D size sheet two sided) SWTP MP-S serial interface (SS50, 6800) assembly, schematic and board views. Ohiso Scientific sams photofact service manual complete for: Superboard-II Model C1P Model C1PMF Allison From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 16 09:18:09 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: osborne 1 serial number In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to Sam and his help, I've just aquired my own Osborne 1! It certainly is a nice system..and it's easy to understand the improvements made between it and the Executive, especially with them sitting side by side. I can't believe there is absolutely no ventilation in that case, other than the little screens on the front panel! I must say that CP/M on the Osborne is one of the nicer CP/M flavors I've seen yet, especially CP/M 3 on the Executive. >Hey, my Osborne 1 has serial number A01284. Can anyone beat that? This one is A02518 Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Mon Jun 16 18:18:53 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Aquarius/Aquarius II Message-ID: <970616181853.20201c7d@wartburg.edu> Was the Aquarius II compatible with the old Aquarius programs? Can anyone give me a lead on an Aquarius II? -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 16 09:38:41 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Aquarius/Aquarius II In-Reply-To: <970616181853.20201c7d@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: On 16-Jun-97, Andy Brobston wrote: >Was the Aquarius II compatible with the old Aquarius programs? >Can anyone give me a lead on an Aquarius II? In all my searching for info on the Aquarius, I've yet to find a reference to an Aquarius II. Where did you find this? Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers From pcoad at crl.com Mon Jun 16 17:11:32 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Weekend Acquisitions III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > > > bank. Get money. Go back to thrift. The VIC was still there. > > Bought the box of stuff for $5. This included VIC-20 (still untested), > > CN2 (my 3rd!), 3K, 8K, and 16K memory carts, super expander cart (with > > manual), Forth Cart with box and manual, programmer's aid cart, machine > > language monitor cart, 7 cart games, and a few cassette games. > > Nice! I did end up with some duplicates. VIC stuff seems to be pretty common. Before this year I never owned any Commodore stuff. The VIC is a pretty nice machine, given its limitations. I forgot to mention that the box also had two "motherboards". These plug into the cartridge slot and have 3 cartridge connectors which allow multiple carts to be plugged in at the same time. Pretty cool stuff. > > > On the way home I visited bubble wrap mecca. Greg Mast tipped me off > > on this place. Thanks Greg! I filled up the rest of my car with bubble > > wrap and headed home. > > How much is this stuff at the place you went to? > Free. This place is the dumping area behind a local company. The place had a bunch of bubble wrap. I couldn't estimate the square yards, but there was way more than would have fit in my car if I didn't have 7 boxes of stuff in it. There were also 50-100 cardboard boxes and several cubic feet of foam. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jun 16 19:45:30 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970616175007.3fff15bc@ricochet.net> At 03:49 PM 6/15/97 -0700, you wrote: >1979? The Victor 9000 came out in 1985/86 according to previous >discussions. Indeed it would have been the "technological cutting edge" >in 1979, and for quite some time as it would have pre-dated the computer >it was supposed to be semi-compatible with. My (admittedly faulty) memory puts the Victor 9000 pre-IBM. I remember my parents considering purchasing one, and being horrified at the specs on the IBM PC when it came out. I couldn't understand why anyone would buy one when they could have the Victor 9000 instead. Maybe I should check some of the docs I've got and see what they say. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jun 16 19:45:45 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970616175024.3fff0824@ricochet.net> At 11:50 PM 6/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >So what exactly is a Victor 9000??? >Just another PC clone? Not a clone, but similar. Max RAM was 768K, came with a Floppy Drive as standard (IIRC). Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drives (as the early Mac's did as well.) Ran an early version of MS-DOS, I think. And, IIRC, it pre-dated the IBM PC. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 16 23:00:51 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Weekend Acquisitions III References: Message-ID: <33A60BF3.228D@unix.aardvarkol.com> Paul E Coad wrote: > nice machine, given its limitations. I forgot to mention that the box > also had two "motherboards". These plug into the cartridge slot and > have 3 cartridge connectors which allow multiple carts to be plugged in > at the same time. Pretty cool stuff. It sounds like you're referring to the Cardco 'Cardboard/3s' expansion interface. Does it have a reset button and a bank of seven switches on it? I have one, in the box with the manual. It also has CB/3S along the outermost edge on the bottom side of the circuit card. Nifty little gadget, as it would even allow me to use the 'Programmers Aid Cartridge' with the 16k memory expansion. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and classic computer collector From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 16 19:36:18 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: osborne 1 serial number In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >Hey, my Osborne 1 has serial number A01284. Can anyone beat that? > > This one is A02518 They came from the same lot. They're probably siblings, maybe having come from the same batch at the Osborne factory! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 16 19:37:33 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Aquarius/Aquarius II In-Reply-To: <970616181853.20201c7d@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Andy Brobston wrote: > Was the Aquarius II compatible with the old Aquarius programs? > > Can anyone give me a lead on an Aquarius II? Never heard of such a beast, and it would have been futile to attempt to market an Aquarius II when the first one didn't do so hot. Perhaps you are referring to the Radofin Aquarius? If not, I want to know what you do, and I want to know it NOW! ;) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Mon Jun 16 20:34:37 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Aquarius/Aquarius II Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970616213426.0068d36c@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 12:37 AM 6/17/97 +0000, you wrote: >On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Andy Brobston wrote: > >> Was the Aquarius II compatible with the old Aquarius programs? >> >> Can anyone give me a lead on an Aquarius II? > >Never heard of such a beast, and it would have been futile to attempt to >market an Aquarius II when the first one didn't do so hot. Perhaps you >are referring to the Radofin Aquarius? If not, I want to know what you >do, and I want to know it NOW! ;) > >Sam Go to: http://www.webcom.com/~makingit/bluesky/aquarius.html#aquarius2 http://www.webcom.com/~makingit/bluesky/tech/aquarius_tech.html "Confident in their system, Radofin's president, Lawrence M. Scott, Jr., announced that they would continue to sell Aquarius through a new distributor, and would release Aquarius II in March of 1984 and Aquarius III in July. None of this happened. " James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jun 17 00:01:55 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Aquarius/Aquarius II References: <3.0.32.19970616213426.0068d36c@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <33A61A43.4DC5@unix.aardvarkol.com> James Carter wrote: > Go to: > http://www.webcom.com/~makingit/bluesky/aquarius.html#aquarius2 > http://www.webcom.com/~makingit/bluesky/tech/aquarius_tech.html WOW...there's some interesting stuff on there! I wonder if the the full expansion chasis ever got off the drawing board? Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of classic microcomputers From pcoad at crl.com Mon Jun 16 20:46:52 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Weekend Acquisitions III In-Reply-To: <33A60BF3.228D@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Paul E Coad wrote: > > > nice machine, given its limitations. I forgot to mention that the box > > also had two "motherboards". These plug into the cartridge slot and > > have 3 cartridge connectors which allow multiple carts to be plugged in > > at the same time. Pretty cool stuff. > > It sounds like you're referring to the Cardco 'Cardboard/3s' expansion > interface. Does it have a reset button and a bank of seven switches on > it? I have one, in the box with the manual. It also has CB/3S along > the outermost edge on the bottom side of the circuit card. Nifty little > gadget, as it would even allow me to use the 'Programmers Aid Cartridge' > with the 16k memory expansion. > One has 3 slots and a fuse and is marked as 'Cardboard/3'. It must be a cheaper model than the 3s. The other one (made by PTI) has 3 slots, 3 slide switches, and a fuse. I neither one has a reset button. I can see That the one with the switches should allow selection of which cartridge to use, but it is not clear to me how the Cardboard/3 is supposed to work. There must be some real voodoo needed to get some sets of carts to work togther. Do you have any information about the Cardboard/3? Thanks, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Mon Jun 16 21:34:11 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Aquarius/Aquarius II Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970616223357.00689a9c@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 737 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970616/bb5f7111/attachment-0001.bin From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 16 22:44:41 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <199706170344.AA11105@world.std.com> > Not a clone, but similar. Max RAM was 768K, came with a Floppy Drive as > standard (IIRC). Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drive > (as the early Mac's did as well.) Ran an early version of MS-DOS, I think > > And, IIRC, it pre-dated the IBM PC. Ok, some herstory. There were many machines that ran CP/M-86 before in IBM PC, one in particular was the Seattle Computer co, running Q-dos which after a deal with MS would be come MSDOS-1.0 aka PCdos to run on the first PC. I was running a 8086 system in 1980 that clearly blow the doors off a PC. It was 8086 not 8088 at 5.0mhz and 16bit wide memory using standard multibuss cards. By late 81 that machine was 8mhz, and 82 brought a copy of PC dos to it. Early MSdos could be configured like CP/M. The PC was slow, clunky, closed and expensive! By time the XT arrived still slow, clunky and expensive there are several S100 and other systems that were very fast 6/8/10 mhz 8088 or 8086 systems. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Tue Jun 17 01:45:14 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 85 References: <199706160702.AAA10040@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33A6327A.31FD@goldrush.com> RE: Marvin >Subject: Re: Printers and Finds of the Week >I am not familiar with the "SuperPET"; where does it fit in with the >rest of the Commodore line? It sounds like you also had a pretty good >"haul" this weekend! The SuperPET was developed by Waterloo University in Ontario, Canada and was released by Commodore sometime around 1980/81. I read a press release where the CBM 8096 (a close pre-cursor to the SuperPET) and VIC-20 were being introduced. It was also referred to as the Commodore SP9000 and Micro-Mainframe. The SuperPET was (I'm pretty sure) the last of the PET/CBM series. After that, in 1982, almost the entire Commodore line was re-vamped with: the Ultimax, C-64, B-128 series, and P-128/P-500 models. What the "PET Personal Computer Guide" Says about the SuperPET: It was designed around the CBM 8032 but boasted a 64k bank-switched RAM expansion and a 6809 co-processor which could emulate a 16 bit computer. In order to be truly compatible with IBM the OS had been retooled to use standard ASCII throughout, it also has a true RS-232 port. It has a 'Highly flexible terminal mode,' 'highly advanced text editor,' and 'run time monitor.' Among its more remarkable features is its ability to trace and repair most errors without losing the current program or its variables. Another virtue is its ability to send any program or data to another computer at any time in any language. The standard languages are IBM-compatible APL (including a complete APL character set), Waterloo BASIC, COBOL, FORTRAN, and Pascal. All languages are stored on disk (which I don't have any of *sigh*) until used. And at the printing of the book the languages worked as interpreters. Waterloo planned to have compiled versions available for the SuperPET in the future. Another language is included is 6809 assembly language. SuperPET comes with an assembler, linker, and loader. -------------------------------- Many of the features of the SuperPET can be seen in later Commodore units such as the B-128 and C-128 series (bank switched memory co-processors, etc.) Browsing the Web I have found some mentions of them, but many were no more than that. So far it seems one or two may have more than just the unit. I hope to get email soon from one person I wrote for info to. From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 01:39:36 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: A couple things: First, if you are an Atari fan, or not, either way, go check out: http://members.aol.com/cvendel/vaporware.html An EXCELLENT page with lots of photos of unreleased Atari prototypes. Great history. A great site. On this site was mention of the STacy laptop, an Atari ST laptop (presumably). Anyone have or know anything about these? Sounds interesting, and I vaguely remember hearing about it years ago. Also, the Aquarius prototype photos on: http://www.webcom.com/~makingit/bluesky/aquarius.html#aquarius2 are startling! That would have been a most awesome computer! I'm biased since I grew up on the Aquarius. But man, what a nice classic that would've made. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 01:41:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: DOes anyone have a computer which uses the EBCDIC character set, rather than ASCII (did I get the acronym right? what does it stand for anyway)? Just curious. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 01:45:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Exidy disk drive chassis Message-ID: Meant to mention this earlier, but over the weekend I also picked up an Exidy (Sorcerer) dual disk drive chassis (no drives, just the power supply circuitry) for a dollar. I was amazed to find it. I know little to nothing about this system, although thanks to Larry Anderson I have one that is totally hacked up with a funky power-supply that replaced the original (sticking about 2 inches out the back with wierd cords I have no idea how to connect) and some interesting mods inside which seem an attempt to double its memory. Any insights on this system? It's fairly obscure. I was told Exidy used standard PC-type full-height 5.25 drives. Anyone know more about this? Or perhaps know where I can get an interface card for the beast? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marcw at lightside.com Mon Jun 16 21:28:41 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: PONG Message-ID: <199706170822.BAA06094@covina.lightside.com> > Pong is not the first video game. Nolan Bushnell, who later founded > Atari, did Pong. Several years before Pong, Nolan created a more > sophisticated game called Computer Space, built by Nutting and > Associates. > > Computer Space was the first arcade video game. > Atari home Pong was the first home video game. > Magnavox Odyssey1 was the first home video game system. > > Trust me, I own all of them. > > Kai > I just pulled out the Pong and manual. I suppose I don't have the original pong anyway. Super Pong, Model No. C-140 (1976). It has four different pong games (labelled differently in the manual and on the box). So when did the original Pong make its appearance. Marc From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Tue Jun 17 03:50:01 1997 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:24 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <199706170854.BAA26009@mx2.u.washington.edu> The Victor 9000 sounds like a machine sold in Australia and perhaps Europe as the ACT Sirius and coexisted for a time with the IBM PC because of a shortage of the latter. Chuck Peddle (spelling?) was the originator of the Sirius. The ACT company I think was British and later changed it's name to Apricot. Or am I completely on the wrong track? ---------- > From: Uncle Roger > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Victor 9000 > Date: Tuesday, June 17, 1997 10:45 AM > > At 11:50 PM 6/15/97 -0400, you wrote: > >So what exactly is a Victor 9000??? > >Just another PC clone? > > Not a clone, but similar. Max RAM was 768K, came with a Floppy Drive as > standard (IIRC). Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drives > (as the early Mac's did as well.) Ran an early version of MS-DOS, I think. > From bwit at pobox.com Tue Jun 17 05:30:41 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: <01BC7AE8.59E34840@ppp-151-164-41-213.rcsntx.swbell.net> If memory serves: EBCDIC = Extended Binary Coded Decimal Interchange Code IBM mainframes (360, 370, etc) are the only machines I've seen that used it. bw ---------- From: Sam Ismail Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 1997 2:41 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: EBCDIC DOes anyone have a computer which uses the EBCDIC character set, rather than ASCII (did I get the acronym right? what does it stand for anyway)? Just curious. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1642 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970617/0a24acb0/attachment-0001.bin From David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov Tue Jun 17 07:58:35 1997 From: David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov (David_A._Vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: <9705178665.AA866556953@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> > DOes anyone have a computer which uses the EBCDIC character set, rather than > ASCII (did I get the acronym right? what does it stand for anyway)? I've never heard of a microcomputer that used EBCDIC, but there are a lot of things of which I've never heard. It is used in IBM mainframes and minis. Here at HUD we have a Hitachi mainframe that emulates an IBM, and it uses EBCDIC internally. We have file transfer utilities that take care of translating into ASCII as necessary. What does it stand for? Gee, it's been a long time. Let's see. According to the "SAS Compantion for the MVS Environment," it stands for Extended Binary Coded Decimal Interchange Code. That sounds redundant, but that's IBM for you. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Tue Jun 17 07:32:51 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Good Old Days Message-ID: <199706171232.IAA06056@wincom.net> Sunday AM, while waiting for Windows 95 to boot on my trusty Hewitt-Rand 386-33, I found myself browsing through a copy of the June 1982 edition of Creative Computing. Editorial content included an evaluation of the Osborne I, an article on "Mass Storage Options" in which the writer encourages readers to forsake audio cassettes and advance to the 5 1/4" floppy drives, or even (gasp) one of the Winchester hard drives which will store five or even ten megs of data! (An advertisement on page 189 quotes $3339.00 for five megs capacity.) On page 116 Osmo A. Wiio, professor of communications, deplores the unreadability of computer documentation. Ads offer floppies for $ 1.90, 48K of ram for your Atari for $ 299.00, and on the inside rear cover a young looking William Shatner is flogging the Vic 20. "Under $ 300.00, the best computer value in the world today. The only computer you'll need for years to come." Well, Win95 is up on the 386, got to go. Cheers Charlie Fox From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jun 17 08:41:42 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: PONG In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205300DF5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <509128B4FDF@ifrsys.com> > Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:30:03 -0700 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Kai Kaltenbach > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: RE: PONG > Pong is not the first video game. Nolan Bushnell, who later founded > Atari, did Pong. Several years before Pong, Nolan created a more > sophisticated game called Computer Space, built by Nutting and ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ Whoa! Dude! You like, OWN one of these beasties? Like, YOW! The last time I saw one was in in 1975 (I think)! I remember the Sears store at the local shopping center had one, in RED metalflake. It sure looked out of place next to all of those E/M machines in vogue at the time. What's inside? I was told long ago that it was powered by an IMSAI machine in its base. Is this true? Is it still operational? BTW, this was the first video game ever to appear in a motion picture! It was used as a "futuristic" background prop in the film "Soylent Green", starring Charleton Heston. > Associates. > > Computer Space was the first arcade video game. > Atari home Pong was the first home video game. > Magnavox Odyssey1 was the first home video game system. > > Trust me, I own all of them. > > Kai > Jeff From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 17 09:57:37 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Good Old Days Message-ID: <199706171457.AA16594@world.std.com> > Sunday AM, while waiting for Windows 95 to boot on my trusty > Hewitt-Rand 386-33, I found myself browsing through a copy of the June 198 > edition of Creative Computing. Creative computing was always about 2-3 years behind or worse. > (gasp) one of the Winchester hard drives which will store five or even te > megs of data! (An advertisement on page 189 quotes $3339.00 for five megs nov/dec 1980 _s100 Microsystems_ MOrrow designs (thinker toys) DISCUS 26mb hard dive system_ $4995 (ithaca) Intersystems DPX-2a (z8002 16 bit cpu) basise machine $4795 Northstar* Horizon-2 (DD controller) z80 4 mhz 32k ram (assembled/tested) $2699 Allison From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jun 17 10:15:55 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <01IK69O6QOV690PL3X@cc.usu.edu> > I was running a 8086 system in 1980 that clearly blow the doors off a PC. > It was 8086 not 8088 at 5.0mhz and 16bit wide memory using standard > multibuss cards. By late 81 that machine was 8mhz, and 82 brought a copy of > PC dos to it. Early MSdos could be configured like CP/M. The PC was slow, > clunky, closed and expensive! By time the XT arrived still slow, clunky and > expensive there are several S100 and other systems that were very fast > 6/8/10 mhz 8088 or 8086 systems. I've been taking a look at Caldera's OpenDOS (aka Novell DOS 7, aka DR-DOS), and it still looks quite friendly to running on strange hardware. Other than a few references to our friend the A20 hack sprinkled throughout the non-BIOS (BIOS as in CBIOS or IBMBIO.SYS, not ROM BIOS) parts of a few modules, I've not run across any glaring PCness in the system. At first glance, it also looks like A20 stuff is set up by the BIOS initialization routine. In short, it should still be possible to configure DR-DOS for non-PC hardware. I can't speak for MS-DOS because sources aren't available... Of course, you will get no sympathy from the folks on the OpenDOS mailing lists if you talk about running DOS on non-PC hardware; they seem to be young enough to have never encountered the wide variety of machines that existed before the PC took over the world. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 17 11:36:35 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970616175024.3fff0824@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drives > (as the early Mac's did as well.) I beg to defer. The Apple II series used them as well. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 17 17:38:15 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: ; from "Alexios Chouchoulas" at Jun 17, 97 5:36 pm Message-ID: <199706171638.6430@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drives > > (as the early Mac's did as well.) > > I beg to defer. The Apple II series used them as well. Are you sure about that? The Disk ]['s I have on my Apples seem to be based on shugart mechanics, and have the standard motor control board in them, which doesn't seem to have been modified at all. In which case it would rotate at a constant 300rpm. > Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 17 12:42:39 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: from "Alexios Chouchoulas" at Jun 17, 97 05:36:35 pm Message-ID: <9706171642.AA11113@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 572 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970617/3ccf3599/attachment-0001.ksh From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 17 11:55:37 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: PONG Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970617125523.006937a4@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 09:28 PM 6/16/97 PST8PDT, you wrote: > >So when did the original Pong make its appearance. > >Marc Atari's Pong the Coin-op in Nov '72 Atari's Home Pong Console in late '74 Other videogame milestones of note: Higinbotham's Oscilloscope Tennis in Oct '58 Russell's PDP-1 Spacewar in '62 Baer's Cable TV game system in '68 Nutting's Computer Space Coin-op in '71 Magnovox's Odyssey Console in May '72 James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 11:44:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count Message-ID: Out of curiosity, anyone know how many IMSAIs were produced? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 17 13:04:19 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 17, 97 09:44:55 am Message-ID: <9706171704.AA18136@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 330 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970617/2028e63d/attachment-0001.ksh From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jun 17 12:13:43 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) Message-ID: <199706171711.MAA13432@challenge.sunflower.com> I have messed with a few apple/// drives, and yes, you can recalibrate them the same way. Excessivly noisey drives in my experience though is not always a bad floppy drive, but rather there is a C-clip retainer that keeps the rotor spindle at the correct height. This C clip is on top of the spindle just below the plastic disk that supports the bottom of the disk. When this clip is missing the flywheel at the bottom of the drives falls down about 1/4" and drags on the bottom of the case. If you don't see this clip, you can remove the drive and sit it on it's side and it may boot. At least then you know if the hunt for a compatable C clip is worth it. ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) > Date: Friday, June 13, 1997 11:29 AM > > On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > > I noticed that the cable that leads to the external floppy port has been > > badly crushed between the cast iron frame and the metal sheet that holds > > the motherboard, though. I'll have to remove it to see if any of the > > wires have been broken. :/ > > My internal floppy seems to be hosed. I can't boot any disks off of it. > Some bgin to boot but then go to error, others invoke this horrendous > recalibration that never ends. I assume the drive head is dirty and the > speed needs calibrating. I wonder if I can calibrate this drive like one > can the Disk ][? > > > I do need the system disks. I didn't get them with the machine. I wish > > there was some way to transfer them electronically, though... which is why > > I asked if there was a way of getting an Apple ][ to access a ///'s disks. > > I suppose the ///'s drive is double-sided, though. > > Doug, if you want I can e-mail NuFX (ShrinkIt) images to you. This would > be the quickest way for you to get them. You'd need an Apple // running > shrinkit of course. The disk format between the // and /// is identical. > > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue Jun 17 12:20:49 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Good Old Days In-Reply-To: <199706171232.IAA06056@wincom.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Charles E. Fox wrote: > Well, Win95 is up on the 386, got to go. > > Cheers > Charlie Fox OOOH, That's GOTTA hurt! You poor sadistic soul! Les From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue Jun 17 12:24:33 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: <9706171704.AA18136@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Out of curiosity, anyone know how many IMSAIs were produced? > > I would guess a few hundred thousand, if you include the > industrial and turn-key S-100 systems without a full front panel. > Many of the boxes were rebranded by various manufacturers (i.e. > the Cromemco box mentioned here a couple days ago.) > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > So what about the "replicas" everyones been talking about? As someone who will probably never find a "real" IMSAI, much less afford it if I did find it, I'd be interested in building a replica. Les From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 17 12:34:14 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Good Old Days Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20533AAEF@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Tigerdirect has 386-to-486 upgrade CPUs (for DX or SX) for $19.95 Kai > ---------- > From: Mr. Self Destruct > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 1997 10:20 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Good Old Days > > On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Charles E. Fox wrote: > > > Well, Win95 is up on the 386, got to go. > > > > Cheers > > Charlie Fox > > OOOH, That's GOTTA hurt! You poor sadistic soul! > > Les > > From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 17 12:38:41 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: <9706171704.AA18136@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Out of curiosity, anyone know how many IMSAIs were produced? > I would guess a few hundred thousand, if you include the > industrial and turn-key S-100 systems without a full front panel. > Many of the boxes were rebranded by various manufacturers (i.e. > the Cromemco box mentioned here a couple days ago.) When did Cromemco rebrand IMSAI machines? I was under the impression that Cromemco's boxes were all built by them, when they decided to branch out from building add-in video cards and such for everybody's S-100 system (as I recall, the TV Dazzler was the single most popular upgrade in the history of the S-100 bus). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 17 12:45:57 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Good Old Days In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Charles E. Fox wrote: > > Well, Win95 is up on the 386, got to go. > > OOOH, That's GOTTA hurt! You poor sadistic soul! I think you mean "masochistic", unless you're refering to the pain being inflicted on the '386 -- and '386 CPUs do like to suffer. When my little Everex notebook is allowed to boot Win95 (I left less than a quarter of the disk to that when I installed Linux) the startup sound is Wednesday Addams from the second movie -- "Be afraid. Be very afraid." (When it shuts down, it's a bit from the first movie -"Are they dead?" "Does it matter?") -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 12:36:41 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drives > > (as the early Mac's did as well.) > > I beg to defer. The Apple II series used them as well. I don't know where you got that information from, but I've never known that to be the case. All apple drives ran at a static 300rpm or else they didn't work. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From william at ans.net Tue Jun 17 13:05:02 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <9705178665.AA866556953@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> Message-ID: <199706171805.AB09469@interlock.ans.net> > > DOes anyone have a computer which uses the EBCDIC character set, rather than > > ASCII (did I get the acronym right? what does it stand for anyway)? > > I've never heard of a microcomputer that used EBCDIC, What did that original IBM personal computer disaster (5100) use? William Donzelli william@ans.net From zmerch at northernway.net Tue Jun 17 13:37:12 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <199706171805.AB09469@interlock.ans.net> References: <9705178665.AA866556953@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970617143712.009e6740@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, William Donzelli said: >> > DOes anyone have a computer which uses the EBCDIC character set, rather than >> > ASCII (did I get the acronym right? what does it stand for anyway)? >> >> I've never heard of a microcomputer that used EBCDIC, > >What did that original IBM personal computer disaster (5100) use? AFAIK, the "disaster" used ASCII as well, but IIRC IBM wanted to make APL a household word, and I think at first, they didn't even offer BASIC for it. If y'all think OS-9 or Unix is cryptic, APL is *not* the programming language for you. ;-) See ya, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 17 13:49:22 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Differences? References: <199706171805.AB09469@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <33A6DC2F.476C@rain.org> In checking through the TRS-80 Model I computers, I noticed two different catalog numbers, 26-1001 and 26-1006. I also noticed that one of the 26-001 computer has a sticker saying "Note - This unit has the lower case modification kit installed (Cat. No. 26-1104.) Since most of these machines have been previously owned by early computer users, needless to say most have been modified in one way or another. Anyone know the differences between the different catalog numbers? Thanks. From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jun 17 14:12:11 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Differences? Message-ID: <01IK6I284GWY90PNT5@cc.usu.edu> > In checking through the TRS-80 Model I computers, I noticed two > different catalog numbers, 26-1001 and 26-1006. I also noticed that one > of the 26-001 computer has a sticker saying "Note - This unit has the > lower case modification kit installed (Cat. No. 26-1104.) Since most of > these machines have been previously owned by early computer users, > needless to say most have been modified in one way or another. Anyone > know the differences between the different catalog numbers? Thanks. I don't suppose one number is for Level I BASIC and the other is for Level II BASIC? Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 17 14:22:11 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? References: <9705178665.AA866556953@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> <3.0.1.32.19970617143712.009e6740@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <33A6E3E3.5F08@rain.org> A while back, I "saved" some cartridges from being tossed. The label says "Digital Controls, Learning Center, Multiplan (title varies depending on cartridge), Registerd Trademark of Microsoft Corporations, Copyright Digital Controls, Inc." The other titles I have are "Preview 1", "Lotus", "dBase II", "Wordstar", "IBM PC", and "Multimate". Anyone out there know what these are and what they go to? Thanks! From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jun 17 14:37:45 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? Message-ID: <199706171935.OAA23779@challenge.sunflower.com> any chance for a PC Jr? maybe a TI/99? ---------- > From: Marvin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? > Date: Tuesday, June 17, 1997 2:22 PM > > A while back, I "saved" some cartridges from being tossed. The label > says "Digital Controls, Learning Center, Multiplan (title varies > depending on cartridge), Registerd Trademark of Microsoft Corporations, > Copyright Digital Controls, Inc." The other titles I have are "Preview > 1", "Lotus", "dBase II", "Wordstar", "IBM PC", and "Multimate". Anyone > out there know what these are and what they go to? Thanks! From pcoad at crl.com Tue Jun 17 13:51:36 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: STacy Was: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On this site was mention of the STacy laptop, an Atari ST laptop > (presumably). Anyone have or know anything about these? Sounds > interesting, and I vaguely remember hearing about it years ago. > IIRC it was a 1040ST motherboard in a laptop case. They come up for sale once in a while in the Atari ST news groups. It seems to me that Atari was developing another ST laptop at one point. I don't know if it was ever released. I'm sure that someone else has more information on it, but I might be able to dig up some an old article on them. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 14:38:38 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > Out of curiosity, anyone know how many IMSAIs were produced? > > > > I would guess a few hundred thousand, if you include the > > industrial and turn-key S-100 systems without a full front panel. > > Many of the boxes were rebranded by various manufacturers (i.e. > > the Cromemco box mentioned here a couple days ago.) > > > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > > > > So what about the "replicas" everyones been talking about? As someone who > will probably never find a "real" IMSAI, much less afford it if I did find > it, I'd be interested in building a replica. I don't think they're THAT hard to find. With "a few hundred thousand" in various implementations floating around, you're bound to run into run sooner or later, even if its not the vanilla type. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jun 17 15:01:54 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa parts -- Get 'em while you can... Message-ID: Ok, here's a twist. A 'rescue' of computer parts rather than whole machines? Anyone else think this might be worthwhile? -jim --- begin forwarded message --- Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 04:13:37 GMT From: Tom Stepleton Newsgroups: comp.society.folklore Subject: Apple Lisa parts -- Get 'em while you can... I realize that this may not be of general interest. I apologize in advance to those I might bore or annoy... This is probably nothing to be excited about, but... A friend has recently informed me that Sam Neulinger of New York's DAFAX is sending some Apple Lisa parts in rather poor condition to the recycler by afternoon (EST) tomorrow. AFAIK, they comprise mostly of items like video boards, power supplies, and some Macintosh XL hard disks, all in various states of disrepair but still good for salvage or fixing-up. There are probably various other tarnished gems as well. If anyone would like to have these parts, I am sure that Mr. Neulinger would just as soon sell them to a hobbyist as to a scrap dealer. Keep in mind that it is probably not in his interest to sell these items piecemeal -- any buyer would have to purchase these items bulk. Also keep in mind that a buyer would not have to buy EVERYTHING. So, it's up to anyone who is interested and has the cash. I have neither the money nor the space to house these items. Whatever; either they end up under a soldering iron or in a recycling bin. DAFAX will still sell working Lisa parts, but will not maintain power supplies any longer as it is not profitable for them. DAFAX's number is (718)746-8220. Thanks, --Tom TI-82: :For(A,0,9):0>D:For(B,0,A):A nCr B>C:Text(6A,D,C) :D+5(int log C+1)>D:End:End --- end of forwarded message --- --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 17 15:06:28 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970617160529.0068d078@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 07:22 PM 6/17/97 +0000, you wrote: >A while back, I "saved" some cartridges from being tossed. The label >says "Digital Controls, Learning Center, Multiplan (title varies >depending on cartridge), Registerd Trademark of Microsoft Corporations, >Copyright Digital Controls, Inc." The other titles I have are "Preview >1", "Lotus", "dBase II", "Wordstar", "IBM PC", and "Multimate". Anyone >out there know what these are and what they go to? Thanks! My first guess would have been an IBM PCjr because it has the only cartridge version of Lotus I've ever heard of. But Wordstar was definitely disk-based for the PCjr, in fact it had it's own version, Wordstarjr. Microsoft Multiplan came on cartridge for the TI99/4A, but I've never heard of the others being on cartridge format for that system. What are the dimensions of the cartridges and how many pins? Do the labels looks commercially viable, or could they be test/demo/proto labels? James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 17 21:11:56 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970617160529.0068d078@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>; from "James Carter" at Jun 17, 97 4:06 pm Message-ID: <199706172011.16039@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > At 07:22 PM 6/17/97 +0000, you wrote: > >A while back, I "saved" some cartridges from being tossed. The label > >says "Digital Controls, Learning Center, Multiplan (title varies > >depending on cartridge), Registerd Trademark of Microsoft Corporations, > >Copyright Digital Controls, Inc." The other titles I have are "Preview > >1", "Lotus", "dBase II", "Wordstar", "IBM PC", and "Multimate". Anyone > >out there know what these are and what they go to? Thanks! > > My first guess would have been an IBM PCjr because it has the only > cartridge version of Lotus I've ever heard of. But Wordstar was definitely > disk-based for the PCjr, in fact it had it's own version, Wordstarjr. > Microsoft Multiplan came on cartridge for the TI99/4A, but I've never heard > of the others being on cartridge format for that system. This probably has absolutely nothing to do with it, but there was a thing sold in the UK called a 'Simplifier'. It connected between a PC and its keyboard, and had a number of 'function keys' on the top and some LCD displays to label them. There were cartridges for most major PC applications, including Lotus 1-2-3 (I happen to have that cartridge). When in use, the displays would provide appropriate labels for the keys -- for example 'Enter new cell'. You'd then get another menu on the keys with 'Enter number', 'Enter Text', 'Enter Formula', etc. When you pressed one of those keys it would send the appropriate keycodes to the PC to perform the desired action. You could, of course, also use the normal PC keyboard if you wanted to. Has anyone else ever come across this device? -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 15:36:04 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? In-Reply-To: <33A6E3E3.5F08@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > A while back, I "saved" some cartridges from being tossed. The label > says "Digital Controls, Learning Center, Multiplan (title varies > depending on cartridge), Registerd Trademark of Microsoft Corporations, > Copyright Digital Controls, Inc." The other titles I have are "Preview > 1", "Lotus", "dBase II", "Wordstar", "IBM PC", and "Multimate". Anyone > out there know what these are and what they go to? Thanks! Probably carts for the PCjr. If so, those are pretty rare. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jun 17 16:00:41 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count References: Message-ID: <33A6FAF9.4307@ndirect.co.uk> Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > Out of curiosity, anyone know how many IMSAIs were produced? > > > > I would guess a few hundred thousand, if you include the > > industrial and turn-key S-100 systems without a full front panel. > > Many of the boxes were rebranded by various manufacturers (i.e. > > the Cromemco box mentioned here a couple days ago.) > > > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > > > > So what about the "replicas" everyones been talking about? As someone who > will probably never find a "real" IMSAI, much less afford it if I did find > it, I'd be interested in building a replica. > > Les me too! Help please enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jun 17 03:27:57 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Weekend Acquisitions III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 17-Jun-97, Paul E Coad wrote: >That the one with the switches should allow selection of which cartridge >to use, but it is not clear to me how the Cardboard/3 is supposed to work. >There must be some real voodoo needed to get some sets of carts to work >togther. >Do you have any information about the Cardboard/3? Paul, The manual devotes 6 pages to the different configurations of these 7 dip switches. The switches basically set which memory block the cartridges will reside in on boot-up. Each of these blocks is 8k in size. According to the diagram, it goes as follows: #1: slot 1, block 5 #2: slot 1, block 3 #3: slot 2, block 5 #4: slot 2, block 3 #5: slot 3, block 5 #6: slot 3, block 3 #7: controls whether the VIC can access block 1 or not Auto-boot cartridges reside in block 5, so the switch for the slot that cartridge resides in should be turned on for block 5. This is REAL simplified from the description in the manual, but I hope it helps. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 15:50:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Aim 65 Message-ID: 1. What is an Aim65? 2. What is a good price to offer to buy/sell one? Thanks! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 17 16:59:29 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 17, 97 12:38:38 pm Message-ID: <9706172059.AA32337@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1313 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970617/c1a3d2eb/attachment-0001.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jun 17 17:02:05 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Aim 65 In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 17, 97 01:50:55 pm Message-ID: <9706172102.AA00525@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970617/1841b4a0/attachment-0001.ksh From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jun 17 03:43:51 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: PONG In-Reply-To: <199706170822.BAA06094@covina.lightside.com> Message-ID: On 17-Jun-97, marcw@lightside.com wrote: >I just pulled out the Pong and manual. I suppose I don't have the >original pong anyway. >Super Pong, Model No. C-140 (1976). It has four different pong games >(labelled differently in the manual and on the box). Marc, Thanks! I've been trying to remember when we bought our Super Pong, and hadn't been able to narrow the date down very far at all. I just have the unit still...the manual and box were lost YEARS ago. It was fun entertaining a 4 and 6 year old with it a couple of months ago. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jun 17 12:31:04 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: PCjr questions and TI 99/4A tidbit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199706172130.RAA00642@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:36:41 -0700 (PDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Hello! I have a working PCjr without any add ons to it. All It had is two types of keyboard one is clicklet and one is real keyboard, parallel sidecar, extra 64k in it totals 128k and a 5.25" But it is missing a power transformer, it uses dual tapped 17vac connected to one tap inside the transformer making total of three wires. But I made up a power adapter to accept clone pc standard switching PSU in place of its little AC to DC convertor card. One time I booted it with 5.x dos but I had to set video mode to arrive at 80 columns at end of boot. Is the orignal transformer brick underpowered if I put extra add ons? Is that true that there is a lots of add ons for this PCjr? I would like to seperate the video to a proper video such as VGA card so it would not hog up the main memory and boost it to 640k. Finally is there a add on that allows me to plug a DMA chip in to speed up the floppy? It is nice compact computer! What I planning is to make this PCjr more of an real XT with SLOTS than a just a cheap vanilla-favored PCjr. Where's is good source to find these parts? Oh, by the way, my father still have a TI 99/4A in black/sliver case with all the stuff but not the expansion box. It is bit iffy and joysticks is worn out from lot of use by me and my brother. Both of us would program in lots of basic and see what it does. SLow. :) And both of us would play the Peaseac I think a LOT. What's is the best way to retore it to an reliable one again? Thanks! From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 17 18:35:33 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Apple /// booting and Franklin question Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053626F9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I think I saw this go by once before on the group, but - - How do you get an Apple /// to boot from the ProFile? Also: - Does anyone consider the Franklin Ace 1000 Apple II clone very collectible? thanks Kai From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Jun 17 18:50:00 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Aim 65 In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:50:55 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199706172350.QAA15638@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail writes: > 1. What is an Aim65? It's a singleboard 6502 system/eval kit from Rockwell, sort of like the MOS/CBM KIM-1, only different. 6502, some RAM, some ROM (sockets?), 20-char LED display, QWERTY keyboard, cash-register printer, a couple of bus connectors off the left side of the board. Actually, I'm not sure if the display, keyboard, and printer were there on all of them but I remember them being sold with those in the late 1970s/early 1980s. > 2. What is a good price to offer to buy/sell one? A few years ago I paid $5 for one at Foothill. It had apparently been OEMd into a nutrition advising system of some sort, as that is what seemed to be in the ROMs and it came in a cheap plastic case that pretty much hid the guts (just sturdy enough to be a frame for the AIM-65 and the power supply). No documentation, either for the AIM-65 itself or for the nutrition software. I don't recall for sure, but would expect that an AIM-65 from Rockwell would have come with something other than the nutrition software in the ROM sockets. Somewhere I do have an AIM-65 manual but it is (like most of my collection at present) in storage. -Frank McConnell From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jun 17 20:03:12 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Apple /// booting and Franklin question Message-ID: <199706180100.UAA17101@challenge.sunflower.com> To use boot from a profile, you really can't you use a disk that boots the profiler. It's not really booting from it, but it is. I don't really understand it, just that the disk that came with my apple/// does it ---------- > From: Kai Kaltenbach > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Apple /// booting and Franklin question > Date: Tuesday, June 17, 1997 6:35 PM > > I think I saw this go by once before on the group, but - > > - How do you get an Apple /// to boot from the ProFile? > > Also: > > - Does anyone consider the Franklin Ace 1000 Apple II clone very > collectible? > > thanks > > Kai From sinasohn at crl.com Tue Jun 17 20:03:29 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970617180816.0b47380a@ricochet.net> At 11:41 PM 6/16/97 -0700, you wrote: >DOes anyone have a computer which uses the EBCDIC character set, rather >than ASCII (did I get the acronym right? what does it stand for anyway)? My HP3000 can write mag tapes in EBCDIC. EBCDIC: Extended Binary Coded Decimal Interchange Code (From the Acronym Database on the 'web.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Tue Jun 17 20:03:53 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970617180840.0b4738b8@ricochet.net> At 11:39 PM 6/16/97 -0700, you wrote: >On this site was mention of the STacy laptop, an Atari ST laptop >(presumably). Anyone have or know anything about these? Sounds >interesting, and I vaguely remember hearing about it years ago. The STacy is, I guess, a laptop, but it's one of those where you need a good sized lap. Still, a nice, compact machine, with built-in midi -- hence it's popularity with touring musicians. I think it was the Arsenio Hall show where the band leader had a STacy prominently displayed on stage (and working). If you're thinking of a true laptop, it's probably the ST Book, a notebook like computer that was ST compatible. Never came out, though, AFAIK. I've got a "Midi Magazine" (or something like that) that featured the ST Book on the cover. Shame that it didn't make it out (would've even been better as a Falcon-book) because it would have been one hell of a musician's tool. (My ST's and Falcons are *not* in my collection because they're still (in theory -- oh, if only I didn't have to work for a living) in use in my studio.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From marcw at lightside.com Tue Jun 17 18:53:04 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: PCjr questions and TI 99/4A tidbit Message-ID: <199706180156.SAA09931@covina.lightside.com> > Is that true that there is a lots of add ons for this PCjr? I would > like to seperate the video to a proper video such as VGA card so it > would not hog up the main memory and boost it to 640k. Finally is > there a add on that allows me to plug a DMA chip in to speed up the > floppy? It is nice compact computer! What I planning is to make this > PCjr more of an real XT with SLOTS than a just a cheap > vanilla-favored PCjr. Where's is good source to find these parts? > PC Enterprises has a PCjr catalogue that they sent me for some reason. I used to get their Tandy parts catalogue. Assuming they're not going out of business call 'em up at 800-922-7257. They're on the east coast and keep banker's hours it seems. Best to get them in the morning. The catalogue I have is from '95 and is 111 pages thick with index. I'll email you later with the items you asked about with descriptions and prices. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org IRC Nick: Senshi Channel: #dos #IrcHelp http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html -- DOS Internet Tools From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jun 17 22:25:43 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Apple /// booting and Franklin question In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053626F9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: > > - Does anyone consider the Franklin Ace 1000 Apple II clone very > collectible? > What an interesting question - I don't usually consider how collectable a computer is, just whether or not I already have one ;). I guess I would consider it collectable but I'm really big on Apple clones. Franklin is an interesting case as they were one of, if not the first major casualty in Apple's fight against clonemakers. They also made a lot of nice modifications to the Apple design. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 17 22:28:16 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? References: <3.0.32.19970617160529.0068d078@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <33A755D0.4799@rain.org> James Carter wrote: > > What are the dimensions of the cartridges and how many pins? Do the labels > looks commercially viable, or could they be test/demo/proto labels? > I took a look at both the PC Jr. and the TI94 and the cartridges are not the same. This cartridge is just a bit narrower than the IBM PC Jr. cartridge but there are only 12 double sided gold fingers on the cartridge PC Board. The board itself has "Digital Controls Inc, copyright 1983" on it along with three 74LS244 chips and an EPROM. Without peeling the label off, I don't know what the chip number of the EPROM is and the only thing I can see is that it is an NEC chip. The EPROM label on this board says "Digital Controls, Inc., Lotus, version 2.0, (C) 1984". From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 17 22:46:33 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? References: <199706172011.16039@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <33A75A19.7038@rain.org> A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > > At 07:22 PM 6/17/97 +0000, you wrote: > > >A while back, I "saved" some cartridges from being tossed. The label > > >says "Digital Controls, Learning Center, Multiplan (title varies > > >depending on cartridge), Registerd Trademark of Microsoft Corporations, > > >Copyright Digital Controls, Inc." The other titles I have are "Preview > > >1", "Lotus", "dBase II", "Wordstar", "IBM PC", and "Multimate". Anyone > > >out there know what these are and what they go to? Thanks! > > > This probably has absolutely nothing to do with it, but there was a thing > sold in the UK called a 'Simplifier'. It connected between a PC and its > keyboard, and had a number of 'function keys' on the top and some LCD > displays to label them. There were cartridges for most major PC > applications, including Lotus 1-2-3 (I happen to have that cartridge). The name Digital Controls, Inc., especially the Inc. portion implies to me that it is a US company but I could be wrong on that. Do you have any idea what size the cartridges are? The outside dimensions of this cartridge is about 2 3/4" wide x 3" long x 7/8" thick. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue Jun 17 22:57:53 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > I don't think they're THAT hard to find. With "a few hundred thousand" > in various implementations floating around, you're bound to run into run > sooner or later, even if its not the vanilla type. > > Sam Well I don't know about you, but I've NEVER found much anything of interest around me as far as old computers go. I don't know ANYONE else that has either a commodore 64, Atari, Apple, TI, etc. I had to drive almost 2 hours just to get a CP/M machine!!!!! The most exciting thing that I have seen in MONTHS is an old CoCo (that looks like it's hooked up to an old radio) in my new girlfriends basement! (Haven't weasled it out of her dad yet...) If I even see a generic XT I consider myself lucky! If someone has got a reasonably priced IMSAI in the Philly area to sell, then fine... but I just don't see it hapening any time soon... Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 17 22:51:19 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: Apple /// booting and Franklin question In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053626F9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > I think I saw this go by once before on the group, but - > > - How do you get an Apple /// to boot from the ProFile? I would want to know the same thing, although from the sounds of it, my ProFile seems long crashed. > Also: > > - Does anyone consider the Franklin Ace 1000 Apple II clone very > collectible? I do. You don't see very many around, and its a nice addition. I have one, and hopefully I have an ACE1200 coming from my brother. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From wbrco at valuenet.net Tue Jun 17 23:06:47 1997 From: wbrco at valuenet.net (Allen Underdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: HELP! References: Message-ID: <33A75ED7.70A3@valuenet.net> Faiaz, Michael C. HSD wrote: > > Does anyone have any info on where I can find accessories and parts for > my old PC8500 (NEC) laptop? > Thanks > Mike If that's the old ProSpeed stuff, I have a docking station and a 2400bps modem for one! -- | Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | | Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | | homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | | http://lakers.cybercon.com/wurmborn | From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 17 23:16:47 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:25 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > Well I don't know about you, but I've NEVER found much anything of > interest around me as far as old computers go. I don't know ANYONE else > that has either a commodore 64, Atari, Apple, TI, etc. I had to drive > almost 2 hours just to get a CP/M machine!!!!! The most exciting thing > that I have seen in MONTHS is an old CoCo (that looks like it's hooked up > to an old radio) in my new girlfriends basement! (Haven't weasled it out > of her dad yet...) If I even see a generic XT I consider myself lucky! It sounds more like you don't know where to look since I can't imagine a city the size of Philly not having quite a bit of stuff around. If people know that you collect old computers, after a while you will have people you don't even know coming up and telling you that a friend of theirs told them to get in touch with you. Doesn't happen in a weekend, but after a year or so (assuming you are serious about collecting), it will happen. There are a LOT of sources of old computers still around. I ended up with a number of the chicklet keyboard Pets (and turned down a dozen or so) that came from the local university. I end up with at least a dozen computers each year from people I don't know that heard about me and just want their computer to have a good home. Sources include Thrift stores, Salvation Army outlet, Goodwill Industry outlets, rummage sales (especially at schools), garage sales, flea markets, Hamfests and swapfests, and advertising as Sam did. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed Jun 18 00:14:05 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: VIC stuff, ComputerSpace, and SuperPET update! References: <199706170702.AAA09015@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33A76E9D.7007@goldrush.com> From: Paul E Coad Subject: Weekend Acquisitions III >...Get money. Go back to thrift. The VIC was still there. >Bought the box of stuff for $5. This included VIC-20 (still untested), >CN2 (my 3rd!), 3K, 8K, and 16K memory carts, super expander cart (with >manual), Forth Cart with box and manual, programmer's aid cart, machine >language monitor cart, 7 cart games, and a few cassette games. (think Homer Simpson Voice): Mmmmm Utilities! I have about 20 or so various Commodore datasettes, from a couple butchered Sanyo decks Commodore stuck in the first PETs to a clone one. Almost tempted to pick up another today -along with the 64 it was being sold with- >Saturday noon >Went back to the sale and met up with Uncle Roger and his girlfriend. >We had an excellent lunch. Swapped a few stories. Went home and >explained to my wife why I NEED 2 more Sun keyboards. Fortunately for me my wife understands, as she has read, it is easier to get along with your spouse if each of you have a money-pit hobby, hers is mainly knitting, spinning, and fabrics, and mine classic computers. I understand when she needs that third sewing machine and she understands the gleam in my eye as a snag another 4040 dual drive. >--pec -------------------- From: Kai Kaltenbach Subject: RE: PONG >...Several years before Pong, Nolan created a more >sophisticated game called Computer Space, built by Nutting and >Associates. >Computer Space was the first arcade video game. >Trust me, I own all of them. >Kai I have been curious what was Computer Space like????? I keep reading about it, but no good descriptions. What were the controls, the layout, the game play, etc. ------------ SuperPET update! Well I was a little bit conservative in my estimation of daughterboards on the SuperPET, the count is now three (well technically four, one of the daughterboards has a daughterboard itself.) I discovered the bottom-most daughterboard seemed to be loose so I had to do a partial diassembly to get to it. It would seem that the bottom-most daughterboard plugs directly into the 6502 socket of the 8032 motherboard, and that daughterboard was not seated in the socket (which is raised with about 4 stacked chip sockets!) Continuing on, I discover that also some of the pins on the bottom of the daughterboard were bent and *sigh* some broke upon attempt to get them back in line (they should be replaceable, but not too easily.) For now, I decided to re-assemble it (and all the various cross-connections and such). Also, I had gotten word back from the person who has a SuperPET and set the switches to work as an expanded 8032. I now can get the 'jingle' sound and a screen full of garbage characters! (Not a complete victory, but a very good amount of progress here!) Plus, the gentleman does have some of the disks: >Yes, I have most of the Waterloo software stuff, for sure the assembly >stuff, the Pascal possibly, the Fortran for sure, and possibly the >BASIC. I may even have the Cobol stuff... I really don't have the time or space to do much more presently, (one of these decades when I retire or win the lottery) but will work on getting a set of the disks, for future use. This is so much fun, my Commodore collection is getting there! Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 18 00:31:37 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: References: <9706171704.AA18136@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970617223137.00e9431c@agora.rdrop.com> At 01:38 PM 6/17/97 -0400, you wrote: >When did Cromemco rebrand IMSAI machines? I was under the impression >that Cromemco's boxes were all built by them, when they decided to >branch out from building add-in video cards and such for everybody's >S-100 system (as I recall, the TV Dazzler was the single most popular >upgrade in the history of the S-100 bus). >-- Well... to get specific I'll have to dig thru the catalogs, but Cromemco did for a time market the IMSAI chassis as the Cromemco Z-1, populated with Cromemco cards. Real tough to do too... New photo mask in the front panel. B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 00:53:42 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: NEC PC 8201A Accessory? References: <9706171704.AA18136@alph02.triumf.ca> <3.0.1.32.19970617223137.00e9431c@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <33A777E6.425A@rain.org> I have another strange device. This one is called a Channel Tester, Ser. No. 55263, and a date of 1985-4. It has a series of BNC connectors on the face labeled "Tx Audio", "RX Audio", "Spk", "Voice Tx Test", "Voice Rx Test", "Mod", "Disc", "RSSI", "NRZ Data", and "Bit CLock". I got it attached to an NEC PC 8201A (as I recall) TRS-80 Model 100 clone. It also has a male and female Centronix interface plugs on the side away from where it attaches to the 8201A. Does anyone have any idea what this thing is? Thanks! From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 18 00:53:37 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Old computers Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970617225337.01199698@agora.rdrop.com> Another target of opportunity for claim or rescue! -jim --- begin forwarded message --- >Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:15:56 -0500 (CDT) >From: Steve Jones >X-Sender: sjones@knoxadm.admin.knet.edu >To: jimw@agora.rdrop.com >Cc: Nancy Taflinger >Subject: Old computers >X-Status: > >We have a PDP-11/44 and a VAX 750 that are now parked in a corner, along >with a fair amount of documentation, system tapes. There are about 5 >RM02s, a tape drive, mux's, ... > >Also have a couple old DecMates. > >I would qualify them all as "free for the hauling", with the only concern >being a need to wipe some of the data on the PDP. Any interest or know >of anyone who might have? > >Steven A. Jones, Director >Computer Center, K-80 E-mail: sjones@knox.edu >Knox College Voice: (309) 341-7356 >Galesburg, Illinois 61401 Fax: (309) 341-7718 --- end of forwarded message --- --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 00:34:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: Ok, here's the deal. Marvin & I are both in contact with a guy who says he has 14 AIM65 units. Hopefully you all have been paying attention and have read the messages describing what this is. Marvin & I are of course both interested in buying one, and we dicussed the possibility that others in the discussion would be interested as well. We feel that if enough of us get together and offer this guy a bulk buy-out, we can get a good price from him. Marvin & I are talking about $20 a piece as of now. If this is of interest to anyone, I can give you his e-mail address and you can ask specific questions, but make sure you mention you are a part of this one-shot buyout so that we get a good deal. I think first we should get a count of who is all interested and then approach the guy. He's in New Jersey, and I don't think shipping should be more than $5 per unit. His e-mail address is Mikeooo1@aol.com and he left his phone number for me: (201) 331-1313. Please reply if you are interested in going in together on this. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jun 18 01:46:35 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Ok, here's the deal. Marvin & I are both in contact with a guy who says > he has 14 AIM65 units. Hopefully you all have been paying attention and > have read the messages describing what this is. Marvin & I are of course > both interested in buying one, and we dicussed the possibility that > others in the discussion would be interested as well. We feel that if > enough of us get together and offer this guy a bulk buy-out, we can get a > good price from him. Marvin & I are talking about $20 a piece as of > now. If this is of interest to anyone, I can give you his e-mail address > and you can ask specific questions, but make sure you mention you are a > part of this one-shot buyout so that we get a good deal. I think first > we should get a count of who is all interested and then approach the > guy. He's in New Jersey, and I don't think shipping should be more than > $5 per unit. Yo! Sam, I'm in for a penny and a pound! I have already emailed the guy too but I won't mention a price. Neither will he! So I don't think he knows what they are worth - do we? I would ABSOLUTELY want one. It would actually fulfill a dream of mine 8-) I have the KIM-1 and the SYM-1 so the only 6502 development board out there I don't have is the AIM-65 - I think!? And at that point, I would give him $20 - hell I would give him $30 for one shipped but buy all 14 for $280 (Yesss Yesss My Precious Should We? It would be so EVIL^H^H^H^H nice - No No I can't! The power of the One Ring is upon me! Resist!) Be sure to find out if they are the straight AIM-65. With the AIM ROMS in them. Or else we will have to make a ROM set for everyone too. There was a time when poeple used to sell these things with POS and even CNC programs pre-loaded in ROM. Seen 'em myself! BC - 6502 Fool 8-) From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jun 18 01:54:17 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: NEC PC 8201A Accessory? In-Reply-To: <33A777E6.425A@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > I have another strange device. This one is called a Channel Tester, > Ser. No. 55263, and a date of 1985-4. It has a series of BNC connectors > on the face labeled "Tx Audio", "RX Audio", "Spk", "Voice Tx Test", > "Voice Rx Test", "Mod", "Disc", "RSSI", "NRZ Data", and "Bit CLock". I > got it attached to an NEC PC 8201A (as I recall) TRS-80 Model 100 > clone. It also has a male and female Centronix interface plugs on the > side away from where it attaches to the 8201A. Does anyone have any > idea what this thing is? Thanks! Are they 50 pin Centronics? If they are, it could be a telephone tester. The Centronics port (at 50 pins) would take a "whip" and let you test all the lines on a PBX or straight telephone cable. If they are 36 pin Centronics I really don't know what used NRZ encoding in the early 80's except tape drives - or maybe its a tester for a radio land line from studio to tramsmitter - it does have the Mod-ulation BNC connection. Other than that - I'm stumped 8-) Who made it - NEC? BC From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 01:56:10 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: NEC PC 8201A Accessory? In-Reply-To: <33A777E6.425A@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > I have another strange device. This one is called a Channel Tester, > Ser. No. 55263, and a date of 1985-4. It has a series of BNC connectors > on the face labeled "Tx Audio", "RX Audio", "Spk", "Voice Tx Test", > "Voice Rx Test", "Mod", "Disc", "RSSI", "NRZ Data", and "Bit CLock". I > got it attached to an NEC PC 8201A (as I recall) TRS-80 Model 100 > clone. It also has a male and female Centronix interface plugs on the > side away from where it attaches to the 8201A. Does anyone have any > idea what this thing is? Thanks! I would almost say its a T-1 circuit tester but the "NRZ Data" connector throws me off. NRZ is probably Non-Return to Zero but its no T1 parameter I've ever heard of. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From frank at 5points.com Wed Jun 18 06:09:07 1997 From: frank at 5points.com (Frank Peseckis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33bac198.119614841@mail.capital.net> On Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:34:01 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >Ok, here's the deal. Marvin & I are both in contact with a guy who says >he has 14 AIM65 units. [snip] > We feel that if >enough of us get together and offer this guy a bulk buy-out, we can get a >good price from him. Marvin & I are talking about $20 a piece as of >now. If this is of interest to anyone, I can give you his e-mail address >and you can ask specific questions, but make sure you mention you are a >part of this one-shot buyout so that we get a good deal. I think first >we should get a count of who is all interested and then approach the >guy. He's in New Jersey, and I don't think shipping should be more than >$5 per unit. > >His e-mail address is Mikeooo1@aol.com and he left his phone number for me: >(201) 331-1313. > >Please reply if you are interested in going in together on this. > Count me in. I have also emailed him directly to express interest without mentioning price, and am waiting to hear back. How do you see this group purchase working? Sam, are you negotiating the price with him? And then we individually send him our payments? And he's willing to put together a dozen plus shipping packages to a dozen plus places? Whatever the answers, I'm in anyway. Frank Frank Peseckis frank@5points.com http://www.5points.com/ From groberts at mitre.org Wed Jun 18 06:46:13 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Aim 65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618074613.008253b0@mail90> At 01:50 PM 6/17/97 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: > >1. What is an Aim65? >2. What is a good price to offer to buy/sell one? it's a 6502-based Single Board Computer (SBC), somewhat like the KIM-1. i saw one offered for $50 including the qwerty keyboard at a hamfest in Virginia a few weeks back. he left without selling it so perhaps it'll be back. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From groberts at mitre.org Wed Jun 18 06:54:37 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618075437.007dde90@mail90> At 11:57 PM 6/17/97 -0400, Les wrote: >If someone has got a reasonably priced IMSAI in the Philly area to sell, >then fine... but I just don't see it hapening any time soon... hang in there. i actually saw an industrial type IMSAI chassis for sale at the Frederick (MD) Hamfest last weekend - only a couple hours drive from Philly so these things *do* exist on the east coast! i think he was asking $50 or $60. i believe he left without selling it so it could reappear. it wasn't complete but could have been a good starting point for an IMSAI collector (it had several CPU boards and some other stuff). of course without the front panel it's not as visually interesting as the original IMSAI. btw: he said he has bought this as part of a bigger package that included an original IMSAI and an Altair - both of which he fixed up and later sold! - glenn From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 18 08:29:53 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970617180816.0b47380a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > My HP3000 can write mag tapes in EBCDIC. > > EBCDIC: Extended Binary Coded Decimal Interchange Code (From the Acronym > Database on the 'web.) And using the 'dd' command, any Unix system can translate between ASCII and EBCDIC. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From spc at armigeron.com Wed Jun 18 09:35:51 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: PCjr questions and TI 99/4A tidbit In-Reply-To: <199706172130.RAA00642@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 17, 97 05:31:04 pm Message-ID: <199706181435.KAA00711@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca once stated: > > Is the orignal transformer brick underpowered if I put extra add ons? > Yes. I have a PCjr with a parallel extension and several memory extensions (two I think - it's at home, I'm at work) and I have a secondary power supply (that hooks up the same as all extentions, off the side). > Is that true that there is a lots of add ons for this PCjr? I would > like to seperate the video to a proper video such as VGA card so it > would not hog up the main memory and boost it to 640k. Finally is > there a add on that allows me to plug a DMA chip in to speed up the > floppy? It is nice compact computer! What I planning is to make this > PCjr more of an real XT with SLOTS than a just a cheap > vanilla-favored PCjr. Where's is good source to find these parts? You might want to try a web search on PCjr. I've heard of companies that supply parts, although for DMA, you'll have to have drivers since the BIOS does not support DMA driven I/O. -spc (Surprised at the music capabilities of the PCjr) From rector at usa.net Wed Jun 18 09:57:19 1997 From: rector at usa.net (Dan Rector) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: <199706181457.KAA03515@news.paonline.com> Sam, I don't own any computers that use EBCDIC, but I use them every day at work. EBCDIC - extended binary coded decimal interchange code is the character set used on most (if not all) IBM mainframes and midrange systems. (IBM S/390, S/36, S/38, AS/400 etc.) This set has its roots in punched cards (and prior) and really makes more sense when viewed from that perspective vs. that of the way things are today. ASCII - American National Standard Code for Information Interchange. Back when I was in college, an instructor stated it this way: (Speaking about the need for a uniform way to share info across machines. "There are two ways to obtain a standard in the industry. The first is to get a big commitee together and have all parties involved agree on what it should be (ASCII). Or, be the largest company in the industry, do it your own way and force everyone else to adopt your way of thinking. Dan ------------------- Sam Ismail wrote: DOes anyone have a computer which uses the EBCDIC character set, rather than ASCII (did I get the acronym right? what does it stand for anyway)? Just curious. Sam From groberts at mitre.org Wed Jun 18 10:11:32 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: PCjr questions and TI 99/4A tidbit In-Reply-To: <199706181435.KAA00711@armigeron.com> References: <199706172130.RAA00642@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970618111132.008bad50@mail90> >> Is that true that there is a lots of add ons for this PCjr? ... >> Where's is good source to find these parts? i've been seeing a lot of PC Jr. stuff at recent hamfests including complete systems, IR keyboards and "sidecar" expansion units. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 10:47:05 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Aim 65 References: <199706172350.QAA15638@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <33A802CC.5FFD@rain.org> I just sent of e-mail to Mike, the guy who has the AIM65 machines to tell him I will give him a call tonight. The people who have expressed interest in one are now in a separate file and I'll post updates to this list. What I will be asking him tonight is 1) where did the machines come from (i.e., do they have the original ROMS), 2) what kind of documentation comes with them, and 3) how much does he want to sell them all for. This last question probably depends on the demand and I suspect quite a bit of the demand came from this listserver but we shall see. Any other questions that need to be asked? One question that does come up is how to handle the repackaging and remailing assuming we can buy them as a bulk deal. I have access to a commercial UPS account and the shipping costs there are cheaper than just taking the stuff in to UPS from someone off the streets ( I think somewhere between 1/2 to 3/4 of the off-the-street price.) From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 10:56:24 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: NEC PC 8201A Accessory? References: Message-ID: <33A80528.62F1@rain.org> Brett wrote: > > Are they 50 pin Centronics? If they are, it could be a telephone tester. > The Centronics port (at 50 pins) would take a "whip" and let you test > all the lines on a PBX or straight telephone cable. > > If they are 36 pin Centronics I really don't know what used NRZ encoding > in the early 80's except tape drives - or maybe its a tester for a radio > land line from studio to tramsmitter - it does have the Mod-ulation BNC > connection. > > Other than that - I'm stumped 8-) Who made it - NEC? > I'm stumped too :). I just checked and they are 36 pin Centronics connectors. I can't rememeber where the computer it was attached to came from, but a friend of mine wanted it and now he has it. And yes, it was also manufactured by NEC. From rector at rocketmail.com Wed Jun 18 11:07:51 1997 From: rector at rocketmail.com (Dan Rector) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: <19970618160751.21204.rocketmail@send1.rocketmail.com> Sam, I don't own any computers that use EBCDIC, but I use them every day at work. EBCDIC - extended binary coded decimal interchange code is the character set used on most (if not all) IBM mainframes and midrange systems. (IBM S/390, S/36, S/38, AS/400 etc.) This set has its roots in punched cards (and prior) and really makes more sense when viewed from that perspective vs. that of the way things are today. ASCII - American National Standard Code for Information Interchange. Back when I was in college, an instructor stated it this way: (Speaking about the need for a uniform way to share info across machines.) "There are two ways to obtain a standard in the industry. The first is to get a big committee together and have all parties involved agree on what it should be (ASCII). Or, be the largest company in the industry, do it your own way and force everyone else to adopt your way of thinking. Dan ---Sam Ismail wrote: > > > DOes anyone have a computer which uses the EBCDIC character set, rather > than ASCII (did I get the acronym right? what does it stand for anyway)? > > Just curious. > > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 11:11:29 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Mark 8 References: <199706172130.RAA00642@mail.cgocable.net> <3.0.2.32.19970618111132.008bad50@mail90> Message-ID: <33A808B1.5B61@rain.org> I need another project :) and I was thinking about building the Mark 8 computer. Somewhere, I seem to recall that someone was having the board sets for this computer made up, does anyone out there know or remember who might be doing this? This was the computer that appeared on the cover of Radio-Electronics sometime (as I recall) in 1974 and predates the Altair. I am starting to actively look for the Intel 8008 microprocessor but so far no luck. But that's okay, I still have a LOT more friends and people I know to bug about it :). As I recall, it had about 6 boards in the board set and a bunch of TTL chips, but I don't recall if the boards were single or double sided. If anyone has the artwork, either on film or as a template, I would be interested although I *think* the PCB layouts were included in the Magazine (haven't pulled it out yet to check.) To convert the artwork in the magazine to decent PCB artwork would cost roughly $17 per board for the negative and perhaps another $10 or so to get another copy (after cleaning up the imperfections in the first negative.) Not sure what the cost per finished board would be but single sided would most likely be between $15 - $20, and double sided about 20% or so more. Anyone else interested in this project? Since I am not in a rush, I suspect we are talking several months to get the boards and artwork done. From transit at primenet.com Wed Jun 18 11:38:41 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Franklin 1000 (was: Re: Apple /// booting and Franklin question In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053626F9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > - Does anyone consider the Franklin Ace 1000 Apple II clone very > collectible? I have one, I use it with my Alphasyntauri keyboard. Collectable? Probably. Didn't they quit making them after Apple sued them for copyright infringement? From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 11:42:43 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: DEC RL02K DC Disk Pack References: <19970618160751.21204.rocketmail@send1.rocketmail.com> Message-ID: <33A81003.3327@rain.org> A friend of mine wants to get rid of a bunch of DEC RL02K Disk Packs. He has about 24 or so without boxes and another 6 or so still in the original DEC shipping box. The one I have here says "BC-AV02G-BC, RT-11 update G bin RL02" and the date is 1986. These disk packs are about 14" or so in diameter. Anyone have any idea what these might be worth or who would be interested? My guess is somewhere around $5 each but I really don't have any idea. Thanks. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jun 18 11:43:36 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Mark 8 In-Reply-To: <33A808B1.5B61@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > I need another project :) and I was thinking about building the Mark 8 > computer. Somewhere, I seem to recall that someone was having the board > sets for this computer made up, does anyone out there know or remember > who might be doing this? That would be me... > This was the computer that appeared on the > cover of Radio-Electronics sometime (as I recall) in 1974 and predates > the Altair. I am starting to actively look for the Intel 8008 > microprocessor but so far no luck. But that's okay, I still have a LOT > more friends and people I know to bug about it :). The truth (and the chips) is out there... > As I recall, it had about 6 boards in the board set and a bunch of TTL > chips, but I don't recall if the boards were single or double sided. Double sided. The new boards should be pretty neat. > If anyone has the artwork, either on film or as a template, I would be > interested although I *think* the PCB layouts were included in the > Magazine (haven't pulled it out yet to check.) Sorry, no. To get the PCB layouts you had to order the 'supplimental document pack' for an extra $5.00 (long out of print, bit I have copies) Unfortunately, the plates used for the original printing appear to have been overexposed and there are a number of places on the layouts where traces and pads have blurred together. So, in short the original layouts are a good reference, but largely useless to work directly from. Additionally, there are three components (aside from the 8008) that are either no longer in production, or don't have current functional replacements. These being the 1101 (256x1) RAM used in the prototype, and some latches used in the address/memory buffer board. So... since we were confronted with doing (pretty much) new board layouts anyway, we are also going to do redesigns of the memory and address/memory buffer boards to allow the use of more readily available components. (2102 (1k x 1) RAM for the memory, and I'm still checking on latches) The unit will be functionally unchanged. I'm also considering making a limited number of unmodified memory and address/memory buffer boards is there is sufficient interest. (or if someone is sitting on a potload of these latch parts!) In any case... I need to complete the workup on the address/memory buffer board changes so I can send the last updates over to my layout folks so we can move forward on the boards... All I need is about another 2-3 days in a week... B^{ -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 18 11:55:50 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Mark 8 Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205371460@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | ---------- | From: James Willing | Subject: Re: Mark 8 | | On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: | | > I need another project :) and I was thinking about building the Mark 8 | > computer. Somewhere, I seem to recall that someone was having the board | > sets for this computer made up, does anyone out there know or remember | > who might be doing this? | | That would be me... If you get one of these up and running, I have a Scelbi book, "Space Wars for the 8008 Microprocessor" with full hex code listings... Kai From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 18 12:59:01 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: DEC RL02K DC Disk Pack In-Reply-To: <33A81003.3327@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 18, 97 09:42:43 am Message-ID: <9706181659.AA21924@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1179 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970618/74211a34/attachment-0001.ksh From MPritchard at ensemble.net Wed Jun 18 12:20:32 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C74F@consulting.ensemble.net> Count me in for $20 plus shipping! Ill be @ E3, so no responces for a few days. > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Ismail [SMTP:dastar@crl.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 1997 12:34 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: AIM65 > > > Ok, here's the deal. Marvin & I are both in contact with a guy who > says > he has 14 AIM65 units. Hopefully you all have been paying attention > and > have read the messages describing what this is. Marvin & I are of > course > both interested in buying one, and we dicussed the possibility that > others in the discussion would be interested as well. We feel that if > > enough of us get together and offer this guy a bulk buy-out, we can > get a > good price from him. Marvin & I are talking about $20 a piece as of > now. If this is of interest to anyone, I can give you his e-mail > address > and you can ask specific questions, but make sure you mention you are > a > part of this one-shot buyout so that we get a good deal. I think > first > we should get a count of who is all interested and then approach the > guy. He's in New Jersey, and I don't think shipping should be more > than > $5 per unit. > > His e-mail address is Mikeooo1@aol.com and he left his phone number > for me: > (201) 331-1313. > > Please reply if you are interested in going in together on this. > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, > Writer, Jackass > From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 11:42:23 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: <33bac198.119614841@mail.capital.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Frank Peseckis wrote: > >Ok, here's the deal. Marvin & I are both in contact with a guy who says > >he has 14 AIM65 units. > > Count me in. I have also emailed him directly to express interest > without mentioning price, and am waiting to hear back. > > How do you see this group purchase working? Sam, are you negotiating > the price with him? And then we individually send him our payments? > And he's willing to put together a dozen plus shipping packages to a > dozen plus places? I think he was planning to do that anyway. I figure after we get a count of who is all interested, we can all approach him and say we want it at $xx price. Or we can have one person approach him, tell him there are Y people wanting it at X price, if you agree, each person will send you his individual mailing address. I think he would be interested since he is most likely to dump all these in one fell swoop, in one easy deal. Everyone, hurry and respond so we can stick a fork in this. 3 people besides myself and Marvin have already expressed interest. That means there are about 9 left. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 11:48:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970618080003.0081ed10@mail90> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Glenn Roberts wrote: > i'm interested in one of the Aim 65's. $20 seems like a fair offering > price. you mentioned a bulk offer but then you mentioned his email address > so wasn't clear if you guys were trying to coordinate this or let everyone > deal directly with him. let me know how this pans out. tx. I didn't want to seem like a slick willy trying to take over the negotiations for everyone. But I think it would be best if one person did the negotiating and made the deal. It depends on what everyone wants. If it's OK with everyone else, I or Marvin can do the deal, then let everyone know. Otherwise, if everyone wants to take a stab at it themselves, that's fine. I think the easiest for all parties is to offer a bulk buyout at a set price. I think everyone will come away winners. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 11:58:51 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Mark 8 In-Reply-To: <33A808B1.5B61@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > As I recall, it had about 6 boards in the board set and a bunch of TTL > chips, but I don't recall if the boards were single or double sided. If > anyone has the artwork, either on film or as a template, I would be > interested although I *think* the PCB layouts were included in the > Magazine (haven't pulled it out yet to check.) To convert the artwork > in the magazine to decent PCB artwork would cost roughly $17 per board > for the negative and perhaps another $10 or so to get another copy > (after cleaning up the imperfections in the first negative.) Not sure > what the cost per finished board would be but single sided would most > likely be between $15 - $20, and double sided about 20% or so more. > Anyone else interested in this project? Since I am not in a rush, I > suspect we are talking several months to get the boards and artwork > done. Sounds cool. I have absolutely no time, but I hope you carry through on this and do it. I would be interested in building one from your pioneering reconstruction eventually. Good luck. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 13:11:57 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: DEC RL02K DC Disk Pack References: <9706181659.AA21924@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33A824ED.47D3@rain.org> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > As of a few months ago, DEC was still selling new RL02 carts. Price > was $220 each, regardless of whether you wanted RL02K-DC or RL02K-EF > (EF = the "error free" version, guarantee of no bad sectors.) > > That said, used ones go for US$5 or US$10 each in clean condition > and without tripped Shockwatches. Nobody will buy any packs with > tripped Shockwatches. > Ah, my guess was close, thanks MUCH! These are in clean condition and I just found out I also have the drive that probably was used with that type of disk. Also, I don't recall any of them having the shock indicator anything but clear. Now all I have to do is set up the system and hope everything works :). As Jim said, all that is needed are a number of extra days in each week. From mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu Wed Jun 18 13:24:21 1997 From: mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu (Matthew P. Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: old memory boards? Message-ID: <19970618132421.45442@beret.cs.utexas.edu> Hi. I'm a small-time collector interested in older unix machines, though I think I'd be more interested in micros if I had more room than my apartment provides. I was picking up a load of Sun VME-bus equipment today and ran across some memory boards. These are definitely not for the suns, neither multi-bus nor vmebus. The boards are perhaps 12"x16" and are populated with what I presume to be memory chips (AMD 21-17559-01 / 8333EMM) in 16 banks of 9 chips each. The connector along the back has 6 distinct edge-card pieces, with 18 contacts per connector per side. All of the boards appear to be more or less of the same nature, but one is manufactured by Motorola, and 4 have digital markings. Along the back of three of the digital boards, there are two metal protrusions. One says AM, the other M8210. The other digital board is AZ M8210, and it has a lot of Mostek chips that I would guess are 16kbit 300ns chips . . Does anyone know what machine used these boards? The sun equipment I salvaged was sadly without CPU board or power supply but I did manage to grab 2 8mb boards and a bevy of SCSI and SMD controllers. I guess I can add it to my collection of old sun hardware that needs drives to become operational. Do SMD drives frequently show up at swap meets, etc? matt -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@cs.utexas.edu -- Austin, Texas (512)457-0086 -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Wed Jun 18 13:44:32 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: old memory boards? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:24:21 CDT." <19970618132421.45442@beret.cs.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <199706181844.NAA13197@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> >I was picking up a load of Sun VME-bus equipment today and ran across >some memory boards. These are definitely not for the suns, neither >multi-bus nor vmebus. The boards are perhaps 12"x16" and are populated >with what I presume to be memory chips (AMD 21-17559-01 / 8333EMM) >in 16 banks of 9 chips each. The connector along the back has 6 >distinct edge-card pieces, with 18 contacts per connector per side. That sound a lot like memory for a VAX 11/780. The one I have is a 256K x 39 (7 of the bits are for ECC), but the previous owner removed some of the 4164s. Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 18 20:03:26 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: old memory boards? In-Reply-To: <19970618132421.45442@beret.cs.utexas.edu>; from "Matthew P. Sayler" at Jun 18, 97 1:24 pm Message-ID: <199706181903.18446@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I was picking up a load of Sun VME-bus equipment today and ran across > some memory boards. These are definitely not for the suns, neither > multi-bus nor vmebus. The boards are perhaps 12"x16" and are populated > with what I presume to be memory chips (AMD 21-17559-01 / 8333EMM) > in 16 banks of 9 chips each. The connector along the back has 6 > distinct edge-card pieces, with 18 contacts per connector per side. > > one is manufactured by Motorola, and 4 have digital markings. Along > the back of three of the digital boards, there are two metal > protrusions. One says AM, the other M8210. The other digital board > is AZ M8210, and it has a lot of Mostek chips that I would guess > are 16kbit 300ns chips . . That sounds like a standard DEC hex-height board (apart from the size - DEC boards were more like 10" long). I would suspect the memory was probably 8 banks of 18 bits (16 bits + parity on each byte) > > Does anyone know what machine used these boards? PDP11? They might conceivably be VAX-11 boards, but I can't find the M8210 in any of my lists, so without seeing them I can't be sure. > drives to become operational. Do SMD drives frequently show up at > swap meets, etc? I've managed to find them. Note that there are small (8") winchesters, larger winchesters (10.5" and 14") and downright massive demountables all with the SMD interface. > > matt -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 18 14:24:02 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970618123227.0947d6da@mail.crl.com> At 12:22 PM 6/17/97 -0700, you wrote: >1", "Lotus", "dBase II", "Wordstar", "IBM PC", and "Multimate". Anyone >out there know what these are and what they go to? Thanks! Well, "IBM PC" helps date it, as does "dBase II". Has to be early-to-mid 80's. I would guess, off the top of my head, PCjr cartridges? Do I win the prize? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 18 14:24:32 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: STacy Was: yo Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970618123247.0947dec4@mail.crl.com> At 11:51 AM 6/17/97 -0700, you wrote: >IIRC it was a 1040ST motherboard in a laptop case. They come up for >sale once in a while in the Atari ST news groups. It seems to me The last STacy I saw sold went for about $750 -- about a year ago. They still get close to that; they're still popular with musicians. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From BigLouS at aol.com Wed Jun 18 14:56:56 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Apple /// booting and Franklin question Message-ID: <970618155447_407618349@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-18 00:54:51 EDT, bill@booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) wrote: << - Does anyone consider the Franklin Ace 1000 Apple II clone very > collectible? Yes. It was a legitimate alternative to the Apple II+ at a lower price. I designed my first database on a 1000 and found it to be 100% compatible with the II+ (it should have been since they copied the II+ roms) and very reliable. I think that the Franklin line as well as the Laser series of clones belongs in any Apple II collection. Lou From BigLouS at aol.com Wed Jun 18 15:11:43 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: <970618161031_1109853756@emout06.mail.aol.com> Count me in for $20 + shipping. Lou From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 18 16:14:20 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: old memory boards? In-Reply-To: <199706181903.18446@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 18, 97 08:03:26 pm Message-ID: <9706182014.AA14460@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 837 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970618/ca3acbb0/attachment-0001.ksh From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 18 15:23:23 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: <970618161031_1109853756@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: What the hell, count me for twenty bucks. Shipping probably not required, I live and work in area code 201. (Though that will change shortly when the area code gets divvied up). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 18 15:08:34 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Mark 8 Message-ID: <199706182008.AA09096@world.std.com> > > If you get one of these up and running, I have a Scelbi book, "Space > Wars for the 8008 Microprocessor" with full hex code listings... I've designed using that chip and still have my MCS-8 microcomputer set manual from intel If you need help. FYI another old ram chip that fits with that CPU is 2101 (256x4). Allison From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 15:54:21 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Modem Eliminators References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205371460@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33A84AFD.7544@rain.org> Not sure what the correct term is for these devices but I have seen "Modem Eliminator" on several. I'm not at all sure I am interested in keeping all these things. I have about 4 to 6 or so of these Micom units and probably a few others of some other brand. They look like they have a serial port and telephone connections. They seem like they were part of all the larger systems a number of years back and thus seem like they might be worth saving. Anyone interested? From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 18 15:39:23 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: AIM65 References: Message-ID: <33A8477B.2CB1@ndirect.co.uk> Brett wrote: > > On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > Ok, here's the deal. Marvin & I are both in contact with a guy who says > > he has 14 AIM65 units. Hopefully you all have been paying attention and > > have read the messages describing what this is. Marvin & I are of course > > both interested in buying one, and we dicussed the possibility that > > others in the discussion would be interested as well. We feel that if > > enough of us get together and offer this guy a bulk buy-out, we can get a > > good price from him. Marvin & I are talking about $20 a piece as of > > now. If this is of interest to anyone, I can give you his e-mail address > > and you can ask specific questions, but make sure you mention you are a > > part of this one-shot buyout so that we get a good deal. I think first > > we should get a count of who is all interested and then approach the > > guy. He's in New Jersey, and I don't think shipping should be more than > > $5 per unit. OK, count me for one. I am willing to pay the extra charge for shipping via surface mail. Thank you ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jun 18 16:41:29 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Cleaning Plastic In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 9, 97 01:30:15 pm Message-ID: <199706182141.PAA13021@calico.litterbox.com> Ok, I'm about 10 days behind, but for cleaning plastic, especially cigarette smoke (computer is yellow, vaguely sticky) soft scrub works well. The citrus paint thinner cleaner being discussed is called Goo Gone. It works well for sticky messes (IE you got ahold of my old commodore monitor and tried to peel the bumper stickers off... oops). -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 18 16:47:58 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33a85767.273444@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Count me in. Ben From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jun 18 17:50:33 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > It sounds more like you don't know where to look since I can't imagine a > city the size of Philly not having quite a bit of stuff around. If people I live about 30 minutes from Philly by way of I-95. In the boonies. > know that you collect old computers, after a while you will have people > you don't even know coming up and telling you that a friend of theirs told > them to get in touch with you. Doesn't happen in a weekend, b Which of course is why I have 10 PC/XT's but no cool stuff... > year or so (assuming you are serious about collecting), it will happen. > There are a LOT of sources of old computers still around. I ended up with > a number of the chicklet keyboard Pets (and turned down a dozen or so) > that came from the local university. I end up with at least a dozen > computers each year from people I don't know that heard about me and just > want their computer to have a good home. > > Sources include Thrift stores, Salvation Army outlet, Goodwill Industry > outlets, rummage sales (especially at schools), garage sales, flea > markets, Hamfests and swapfests, and advertising as Sam did. > In my experience, the "volunteers" at the Salvation Army filtered out anything that even resembled computers so that they could sell it themselves. If it comes in a box and has a detach keyboard (i.e. looks like a PC) it never gets to the showroom floor. Trust me.... I *know* As for flea markets, I have NEVER seen a computer for sale (I still go and hope tho...) and advertising seems a little too much as I barely have enough room for the 25 or so computers I have already! Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 17:41:31 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Aim 65 In-Reply-To: <33A802CC.5FFD@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > One question that does come up is how to handle the repackaging and > remailing assuming we can buy them as a bulk deal. I have access to a > commercial UPS account and the shipping costs there are cheaper than > just taking the stuff in to UPS from someone off the streets ( I think > somewhere between 1/2 to 3/4 of the off-the-street price.) I proposed to him that he would ship each unit out to each interested party separately. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From pcoad at crl.com Wed Jun 18 16:38:04 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: <970618161031_1109853756@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: I'm in for $20 + shipping. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 18 18:00:32 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Salvation Army (was RE: IMSAI 8080 production count) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053978E8@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | In my experience, the "volunteers" at the Salvation Army filtered out | anything that even resembled computers so that they could sell it | themselves. If it comes in a box and has a detach keyboard (i.e. looks | like a PC) it never gets to the showroom floor. Trust me.... I *know* Well, I don't think they're selling them themselves... if they have a policy (perhaps nationally) like the western washington Salvation Army headquarters in downtown Seattle, they auction off pallets of donated computer equipment to the for-profit thrift organizations such as Value Village, Thriftko and Shop & Save. Unfortunately, the Seattle headquarters holds the auctions not monthly, not weekly, but DAILY, and at 8:30 AM !!! Kai From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jun 18 18:30:21 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Mark 8 In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205371460@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > | ---------- > | From: James Willing > | Subject: Re: Mark 8 > | > | On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > | > | > I need another project :) and I was thinking about building the Mark > | > 8 computer. Somewhere, I seem to recall that someone was having the > | > board sets for this computer made up, does anyone out there know > | > or remember who might be doing this? > | > | That would be me... > > If you get one of these up and running, I have a Scelbi book, "Space > Wars for the 8008 Microprocessor" with full hex code listings... I also have the three books - An 8008 Editor Program Machine Language Programming for the 8008 Assembler Programs for the 8008 I am such a packrat 8-) BC From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 18 18:44:41 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Radofin Aquarius on AuctionWeb Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205397958@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> FYI, Somebody's got a Radofin Aquarius on AuctionWeb: http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=elv642 Kai From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 17:42:44 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Aim65 (fwd) Message-ID: Here's some info from the guy about the AIM65s. They sound like nice units. Marvin, please e-mail me so we aren't stepping on each other's toes. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:02:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikeooo1@aol.com To: dastar@crl.com Subject: Re: Aim65 Dear Sam, They are all in new working condition.The beauty about the Aim 65 is that it was a single board computer which was self contained in that it had its display,printer,and memory all mounted on its board so that peripheral attachments weren't necessary.Yes,it comes with a keyboard and power supply also.I developed a plastic enclosure and metal base and ROM board for the system so the keyboard and power supply could be housed with the Aim in a compact unit and programs could be burned onto eproms which would seat in the ROM board rather than rely on tape storage which involves a recorder hookup and would be quite slow. Best Regards Mike From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Wed Jun 18 19:02:51 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings: I just picked up an Apple ][e, monitor, disk drives, the whole works... even a mouse! But, I am wondering if someone out there might be able to sell me a copy of the Disk Operating System disks and maybe one or two (more?...) game disks? Please get in touch with me at the below address, e-mail, or phoen number, if you might have something like that which I could use to get the system going. Thanks, CORD COSLOR Archive Software //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 18:04:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > As for flea markets, I have NEVER seen a computer for sale (I still go and > hope tho...) and advertising seems a little too much as I barely have > enough room for the 25 or so computers I have already! Then what are you complaing about? Sell the crap you don't want and use that to advertise for stuff you do want. Here's a suggested ad: "WANTED: Your old computers- commodores, ataris, texas instruments, radio shack/tandy, older 70s/80s mini-computers, etc. Will pay cash. No PCs or PC clones manufactured within the last 10 years please." Stick that in your local penny-saver or whatever-they-call-it-there paper and wait for the calls to flood in. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From KFergason at aol.com Wed Jun 18 19:11:22 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: <970618201031_-628125255@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-18 02:16:46 EDT, you write: << His e-mail address is Mikeooo1@aol.com and he left his phone number for me: (201) 331-1313. Please reply if you are interested in going in together on this. Sam >> I would be interested in this. Kelly Fergason KFergason@aol.com From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 19:35:52 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Salvation Army (was RE: IMSAI 8080 production count) References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053978E8@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33A87EE8.4F3D@rain.org> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > Well, I don't think they're selling them themselves... if they have a > policy (perhaps nationally) like the western washington Salvation Army > headquarters in downtown Seattle, they auction off pallets of donated > computer equipment to the for-profit thrift organizations such as Value > Village, Thriftko and Shop & Save. > > Unfortunately, the Seattle headquarters holds the auctions not monthly, > not weekly, but DAILY, and at 8:30 AM !!! > I just found out our local Salvation Army does the same thing every Tuesday and Thursday at 8:30 AM. I gather everything is in cash (I was told no checks) and there is a $2 or $3 admission charge. I meant to check it out yesterday but missed it. There is always tomorrow :). From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 19:39:56 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:26 2005 Subject: Mark 8 References: Message-ID: <33A87FDC.385F@rain.org> Brett wrote: > > I also have the three books - > > An 8008 Editor Program > Machine Language Programming for the 8008 > Assembler Programs for the 8008 > > I am such a packrat 8-) > Well, I think we are all members of that select group :). In checking though another box of docs, I found a couple dozen DEC books from the 60's and 70's covering the PDP 11, 11/40, 11/34, 11/45, 16, 20, VAX, and a bunch of other interesting stuff. This collecting could get to be addictive :)! From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 19:54:41 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count References: Message-ID: <33A88351.2FA2@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > that to advertise for stuff you do want. Here's a suggested ad: > > "WANTED: Your old computers- commodores, ataris, texas instruments, > radio shack/tandy, older 70s/80s mini-computers, etc. Will pay cash. > No PCs or PC clones manufactured within the last 10 years please." > > Stick that in your local penny-saver or whatever-they-call-it-there paper > and wait for the calls to flood in. > It sounds like you may have done this, so what, if I can ask, do people normally expect to be paid for "their pride and joy" given your suggested ad? Unless I either don't have the computer or it is unique in some way, I try not to pay anything for the computers. Most people are happy for it to have found a good home. Not always though :). From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 18 20:25:57 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Aim 65 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970618182603.3dcffe16@ricochet.net> >One question that does come up is how to handle the repackaging and >remailing assuming we can buy them as a bulk deal. I have access to a I'm sure there will be enough people in the bay area to warrant a dinner get-together to distribute a bulk package. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 18 20:26:05 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970618182609.3dcfd7f8@ricochet.net> At 09:48 AM 6/18/97 -0700, you wrote: >negotiations for everyone. But I think it would be best if one person >did the negotiating and made the deal. It depends on what everyone I agree... We could have them shipped to one place and re-shipped from there; USPS should be around $3-5 if you're not in a hurry. (And I'm not worried about them becoming obsolete before I get mine...) If they're shipped to the bay area, I've got lots of boxes and packing materials I need to get rid of... (I'd volunteer to handle it, but I'm new to the mailing list, and if it were me, I would trust me yet.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 18 20:50:26 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Fuller Electronics References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053978E8@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <33A87EE8.4F3D@rain.org> Message-ID: <33A89062.559B@rain.org> I have a new unit built for use with one of the Radio Shack computers. It was manufactured by Fuller Electronics, is a Model RF-2/41 and has a serial number 1018. The top has what looks like a volume control. There are two switches on the front, one 3 position labeled "Both", "Off", and "Cross", another 2 position switch labeled "Computer" and "Recorder", and two LEDs, one Red and the other green. On the back side are three jacks labeled "Black", "Grey", and "Grey", and six cables with three each coming from a hold labeled "REC 1" and "REC 2". It was manufactured here in Santa Barbara, but so far, I haven't been able to find out anything about it. Anyone out there ever heard of this device? From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jun 18 21:03:42 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Fuller Electronics In-Reply-To: <33A89062.559B@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > I have a new unit built for use with one of the Radio Shack computers. > It was manufactured by Fuller Electronics, is a Model RF-2/41 and has a > serial number 1018. The top has what looks like a volume control. There > are two switches on the front, one 3 position labeled "Both", "Off", and > "Cross", another 2 position switch labeled "Computer" and "Recorder", > and two LEDs, one Red and the other green. On the back side are three > jacks labeled "Black", "Grey", and "Grey", and six cables with three > each coming from a hold labeled "REC 1" and "REC 2". It was > manufactured here in Santa Barbara, but so far, I haven't been able to > find out anything about it. Anyone out there ever heard of this device? Marvin - sometimes you are REALLY funny! Obviously this is a tape duplicator. You can go from one unit to two others or from the computer to the other two recorders. How are those AIM-65's coming??????? BC From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 18 23:12:05 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970618182609.3dcfd7f8@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > If they're shipped to the bay area, I've got lots of boxes and packing > materials I need to get rid of... (I'd volunteer to handle it, but I'm new > to the mailing list, and if it were me, I would trust me yet.) Uh, but what of us here on the other coast (where the devices are to start with)? (I'm in the same area code, actually). Damn, but I wish I was back home in the Republic of California. If someone would be so kind as to sow salt where Sacramento used to be, so the capital can be returned to San Jose, I'd be much obliged. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jun 18 19:16:46 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19970618182609.3dcfd7f8@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199706190416.AAA13672@mail.cgocable.net> Hello, What's good to have AIM65 for? I am curious. If it is useful for learning how to do digital stuff, great! Is that best way to start from beginning with basics and work up? > Subject: Re: AIM65 Thanks! Jason D. From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jun 18 23:46:47 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: <199706190416.AAA13672@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997 jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > What's good to have AIM65 for? I am curious. If it is useful for > learning how to do digital stuff, great! No it isn't useful at all. The beastie is about 20 years old and is so outdated even the dinosaurs got bored with it. However, so of us dinosaurs, have fond and long memories! > Is that best way to start from beginning with basics and work up? Well, that way has worked before - for oh say a couple of million years 8-) The AIM-65 is a 6502 development system. I think it first appeared about 1978. The KIM-1 board (which was just that - a board with 6 LED displays and a hexideciaml keyboard plus some other switches) came out about 1976 and the SYM-1 (and expanded version made by Synertek Systems Corp.) had a speaker. 6 LED displays and 2 (YES 2) serial ports came out some where in between. Bothe the KIM and the SYM came standard with 1K of memory. The AIM-65 showed up with a QWERTY keyboard and a PRINTER with a 20 character display! WOW! All of them could only access 64K of memory. The KIM and SYM came standard with 20 ma current loop drivers for the ASR-33 and DEC LA-whatever that also used the 20 ma current loop. The AIM didn't need anything else and was widely integrated into many stand alone single purpose computers. Of course, since it was SO complete it sold for twice what the others sold for. I would believe most KIM's and SYM's where tossed around 84-86 when you could buy REAL Intel power for you desktop 8-( and the 68000 came out - I don't remember when. These boards have been turned into real production type beasts by thier owners but still they just didn't have the omph to do the more demanding tasks. The AIM continued to enjoy the dedicated stand aone market for some time however - even tho they stopped selling them. You could just reuse them. The 6502 and the 6800, which it came from, along with the 8080 and it's child the Z80 are still the most popular subfunction controllers around. There are now being replaced with the PIC series (IMHO) and will eventually fade into to sunset. All I want is a ray of sunshine 8-) BC From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jun 19 00:02:57 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > If they're shipped to the bay area, I've got lots of boxes and packing > > materials I need to get rid of... (I'd volunteer to handle it, but I'm new > > to the mailing list, and if it were me, I would trust me yet.) > > Uh, but what of us here on the other coast (where the devices are to start > with)? (I'm in the same area code, actually). Damn, but I wish I was > back home in the Republic of California. If someone would be so kind as > to sow salt where Sacramento used to be, so the capital can be returned to > San Jose, I'd be much obliged. So ship the whole lot to me in mid-western Canada. That way it'll be eqidistant from both coasts when I ship them out. (I'm just kidding, of course.) The logical (to me, anyway) solution seems to be to have the east coast people in the same area code pick them up, ship out the ones closer to the east coast. Pack up the rest in one shipment and send them to CA (state code, not the confusing country code) and have the rest distributed/shipped from there. Does that make any sense at all? Maybe I need a bit more sleep. Of course, then, which end am I closer to? All UPS shipments between US/Canada go through winnipeg. But I'm rambling now. (Thinking out loud?) I promise I'll shut up now. ttfn srw From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 23:28:45 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > If they're shipped to the bay area, I've got lots of boxes and packing > > materials I need to get rid of... (I'd volunteer to handle it, but I'm new > > to the mailing list, and if it were me, I would trust me yet.) > > Uh, but what of us here on the other coast (where the devices are to start > with)? (I'm in the same area code, actually). Damn, but I wish I was It would not make a whole lot of sense to have all of them shipped out here and then re-distributed. I'll let FEDEX do that. My intent is to have the guy Mike do all the shipping direct from his place in Jersey to each buyer. The point of having a single deal is to get the best price. I sent off a message to him proposing $20 per unit. I'm waiting for a response back. Hopefully news will come soon :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 23:13:18 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Mark 8 In-Reply-To: <33A87FDC.385F@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Well, I think we are all members of that select group :). In checking > though another box of docs, I found a couple dozen DEC books from the > 60's and 70's covering the PDP 11, 11/40, 11/34, 11/45, 16, 20, VAX, and > a bunch of other interesting stuff. This collecting could get to be > addictive :)! Tell me about it. I can't stop stuffing crap into my garage. Today I happened to be in the area of my (now favorite) thrift shop and picked up the following: Tandy 1000HX with Tandy 300 baud modem, Tandy Mouse, Tandy Disk Storage case, two Tandy 3.5" disk drives, a Tandy Clock Chip upgrade (all in the box...I think I got the Tandy Geek's old system). Two Atari 2600s (one almost complete in the original box), one Atari 2600jr, a bunch of 2600 carts A box of Intellivision carts A commodore 64c with disk drive An Odyssey 4000 (pong games, circa 1978 I believe, very nice). Two beige TI 99/4a and some miscellany. All for $50.00. So much to sort through, so little time. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 23:25:28 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: <33A88351.2FA2@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > that to advertise for stuff you do want. Here's a suggested ad: > > > > "WANTED: Your old computers- commodores, ataris, texas instruments, > > radio shack/tandy, older 70s/80s mini-computers, etc. Will pay cash. > > No PCs or PC clones manufactured within the last 10 years please." > > > > Stick that in your local penny-saver or whatever-they-call-it-there paper > > and wait for the calls to flood in. > > > > It sounds like you may have done this, so what, if I can ask, do people > normally expect to be paid for "their pride and joy" given your > suggested ad? Unless I either don't have the computer or it is unique > in some way, I try not to pay anything for the computers. Most people > are happy for it to have found a good home. Not always though :). Normally people who respond to these ads are surprised that anyone is stupid enough to even want to take this stuff, let alone pay money for it. It actually depends on size at this point in a computer's obsolescence...humans are funny that way, valuing something by its size when all other notions of value have faded with time. $5 for small units, $10 for medium size and $15 for big. Unless they know what it is they are selling, such as my friend who sold me his Victor 9000, ZX81 and IMSAI 8080 for $100. I would piece that up like so: IMSAI - $70, Victor 9000 - $20, ZX81 - $10. Really though, its up to you to propose a price. From my experience though, when they ask what you want to pay for it (since a lot of times they don't know what to sell it for, and of course they'd like to get the most out of it that they can) ask %60 of what you eventually want it for. Make sure you've done some research on what you are buying so that you don't end up paying more than fair market value (which is to say what we here would pay since we are the market). If you're lucky (you will be more times than you think) they'll say SOLD! Other times they'll add %25 or so, but that's only if they are arabic, greek or jewish (mediterraneans in general) because we like to haggle. Like if you say $15 they'll say $20. Then maybe if you want to waste some time you can go $17! And they'll go no $20! And then...well anyway, I could write a whole book on it. It takes practice, but its fun. Its all part of the collecting experience for me. Well this message has dawdled. Is that a word? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 01:34:14 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 References: Message-ID: <33A8D2E6.2DA2@rain.org> It seems every time I turn around, I find something else I either haven't seen in a while, or don't know anything about it. In this case, I picked up a brand new Digilog 1500 some number of years ago. It is not on the "Big List" so does anyone know anything about this? I seem to recall the guy I bought it from saying it was around $9500 new. Unfortunately, it came with no docs or software, just a brand new machine. It is a unit with the keyboard, monitor, disk drives, and probably the rest of the computer contained in the same case (I haven't opened it up.) It is about the size of a TRS Model III/IV. Thanks. From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jun 19 01:55:51 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well this message has dawdled. Is that a word? > > Sam Someone should probably do a study on the length and quality of email messages based on the time of day they were typed. (Specifically comparing the start of the message to the end of it.) There's probably a government grant in there somewhere. ttfn srw From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 02:01:24 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Fuller Electronics References: Message-ID: <33A8D944.5841@rain.org> Brett wrote: > > On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > I have a new unit built for use with one of the Radio Shack computers. > > It was manufactured by Fuller Electronics, is a Model RF-2/41 and has a > > serial number 1018. The top has what looks like a volume control. There > > are two switches on the front, one 3 position labeled "Both", "Off", and > > "Cross", another 2 position switch labeled "Computer" and "Recorder", > > and two LEDs, one Red and the other green. On the back side are three > > jacks labeled "Black", "Grey", and "Grey", and six cables with three > > each coming from a hold labeled "REC 1" and "REC 2". It was > > manufactured here in Santa Barbara, but so far, I haven't been able to > > find out anything about it. Anyone out there ever heard of this device? > > Marvin - sometimes you are REALLY funny! > > Obviously this is a tape duplicator. You can go from one unit to two > others or from the computer to the other two recorders. > Well, you answered part of the question :). Maybe I should have rephrased it to also ask if anyone had ever heard of Fuller Electronics. Dick Fuller was (he died about 6 years ago) pretty active with a number of projects, both hardware and software. I *think* he was the person publishing CLOAD magazine, but I am not sure; I still need to ask around Santa Barbara to find out. When he died, I was asked to help clean out his place and at that time, most of the stuff he had was too old to be current and too new to be collectors items. I still had a BIG aversion to dumpstering stuff so I ended up with quite a bit of things he was working on as well as his TRS Model 1s, IIs, IIIs, and a lot of associated software. It was a bit scary since I could relate to how and where he had things stored :). One of the things I did was to empty out his file cabinets of papers that were useless after he died. He was a packrat and had a several folders filled with flyers and information about the software and hardware of the 70's. It almost went into the dumpster but I had second thoughts and ended up with the stuff. His dad just wanted the stuff gone and wasn't interested in anything but getting the place cleared out. I am rather glad it didn't go in the dumpster as I would be kicking myself now! This device was one of several projects he tried to market and looks to be nicely built. Unfortunately, I seem to recall putting the rest of these devices out with the garage sale stuff and they probably went into the dumpster after the garage sale with the rest of the remaining stuff as I had no idea what these things were . > How are those AIM-65's coming??????? I think Sam posted a response to your question ... and now we wait! From pcoad at crl.com Wed Jun 18 20:54:11 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: VIC stuff, ComputerSpace, and SuperPET update! In-Reply-To: <33A76E9D.7007@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <<< No Message Collected >>> From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 18 20:50:47 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > Greetings: > > I just picked up an Apple ][e, monitor, disk drives, the whole works... > even a mouse! But, I am wondering if someone out there might be able to > sell me a copy of the Disk Operating System disks and maybe one or two > (more?...) game disks? > > Please get in touch with me at the below address, e-mail, or phoen number, > if you might have something like that which I could use to get the system > going. Cord, forget about the system disks. You don't actually need them. The Apple was the kind of computer where you could use it with or without disks, although having software made it more useful. Each disk for the apple is self-contained and has whatever DOS it needs to run it. Your main concern right now is to get software for it, whatever that may be - games, utilities, productivity, etc. Find the apple users group near you (if there is one) or go to comp.sys.apple where you will find a ton of information on how and where to obtain apple software. Its not hard to find, there were literally tens of thousands of titles published for the Apple ][. If you've never had an Apple before, you want to go out and start collecting ssome of the games released for it, as there are some fun titles. But as far as system disks, if you want to round out your collection, then I guess you would want an original copy just to say you have them, but every Apple I ever got was second-hand, and I already had software from the previous apple I was upgrading from, and having the original system disks was a moot point, as there were so many other more useful disks to have. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Jun 19 05:09:55 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > My internal floppy seems to be hosed. I can't boot any disks off of it. > Some bgin to boot but then go to error, others invoke this horrendous > recalibration that never ends. I assume the drive head is dirty and the > speed needs calibrating. I wonder if I can calibrate this drive like one > can the Disk ][? Bummer. Is it not possible to use a Disk ]['s drive mechanism with the ///? Internally or externally? Obviously trying to do so internally would bring form factor problems, but I'm wondering if it could be done anyway. Thankfully my internal drive works, but I wouldn't mind hooking up a second drive to it... and the chances of finding a Disk /// lying around are practically nil. Oh, BTW, my Apple /// has TWO Profile cards in it, but there were no hard drives lying around where I bought the thing. How common are those drives? > > I do need the system disks. I didn't get them with the machine. I wish > > there was some way to transfer them electronically, though... which is why > > I asked if there was a way of getting an Apple ][ to access a ///'s disks. > > I suppose the ///'s drive is double-sided, though. > > Doug, if you want I can e-mail NuFX (ShrinkIt) images to you. This would > be the quickest way for you to get them. You'd need an Apple // running > shrinkit of course. The disk format between the // and /// is identical. That would be great, thanks! I've never used ShrinkIt, but I can at least get stuff to and from my //e, and I've got two Disk ][s and a 512K RAM card in it. I'll get ShrinkIt via FTP. I don't suppose the /// disks are available at some anonymous FTP site already? It'd be especially cool in .dsk format, as that's how I transfer all of my ][ software. (I never had a decent terminal program for my Micromodem IIe, so I wrote a whole disk transfer program and extract individual files when I have to once the disk image is on my Amiga.) > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Jun 19 05:57:36 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970614233211.006b92f4@post.keme.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, steve wrote: > At 06:10 13/06/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Of course this all assumes that I *have* a PC. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > 22DISK allows you to convert, format and manipulate diskettes in over 450 > CP/M formats to and from DOS files. Your old CP/M machine may be gone, but > you can read its diskettes in the drives of your PC-compatible. Some ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > formats will require a 1.2M diskette drive; a very few will require a > diskette controller that handles single-density diskettes. An ASCII > diskette description drive allows "roll your own" specifications for > hard-to-find or proprietary systems. Please stop assuming I've joined the Evil Empire. My only PC compatibles are my A1060 Sidecar on my Amiga 1000, which no longer has a 5.25" floppy drive as I put a hard drive in its bay, and a Tandy 1000EX, which has no way of communicating with anything else that I own because ALL it has is a 360K floppy drive. Besides, I was talking about CP/M for the Commodore 1541 drive. That's a multi-speed drive that uses GCR encoding, not MFM. Try writing THAT with 22DISK on your PC-clone. IMHO, someone should write software like 22DISK for the Amiga, as it can read/write MFM and GCR, and do some other weird things that PC-clone floppy controllers can't do (like read Amiga disks, for example ;) ). > >DO YOU WANA COPY??? I already have a copy, actually, but nothing to use it on at the moment. Thanks for the offer anyway. > Emulator BBS > 01284 760851 > Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE Emulators can be fun, but I've never met an emulator that was as good as the real thing. Excepting Macintosh emulators, of course. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Jun 19 06:38:47 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970616175024.3fff0824@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 11:50 PM 6/15/97 -0400, you wrote: > >So what exactly is a Victor 9000??? > >Just another PC clone? > > Not a clone, but similar. Max RAM was 768K, came with a Floppy Drive as > standard (IIRC). Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drives > (as the early Mac's did as well.) Ran an early version of MS-DOS, I think. Uh, I beg to differ about the Victor 9000 being the first computer to use variable speed disk drives, as my CBM 2040 dual drive unit from 1979 does this. That's how it gets 21 sectors on tracks 1 to 17, 20 sectors on tracks 18 to 24, 18 sectors on tracks 24 to 30, and 17 sectors on tracks 31 to 35. AFAIK, all PET-era CBM drives do this, and the 1540 and 1541 drives do as well. As Chuck Peddle designed the PET for Commodore, it is not surprising that he went on to use variable speed drives in his own company's machine. > And, IIRC, it pre-dated the IBM PC. I thought the Victor 9000 was from around 1982. There's a review of it, and an interview with Chuck Peddle, in the November 1982 issue of BYTE. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 12:55:05 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: ; from "Doug Spence" at Jun 19, 97 7:38 am Message-ID: <199706191155.3182@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Uh, I beg to differ about the Victor 9000 being the first computer to use > variable speed disk drives, as my CBM 2040 dual drive unit from 1979 does > this. No it doesn't (or at least the 8050 doesn't, and nor does the 1541 - I have service manuals for both of them) The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more sectors on said tracks. I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time). > > That's how it gets 21 sectors on tracks 1 to 17, 20 sectors on tracks 18 > to 24, 18 sectors on tracks 24 to 30, and 17 sectors on tracks 31 to 35. > > AFAIK, all PET-era CBM drives do this, and the 1540 and 1541 drives do as > well. > Doug Spence > ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From tedbird at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 19 07:48:19 1997 From: tedbird at ix.netcom.com (Ted Birdsell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count References: Message-ID: <33A92A93.5C23@ix.netcom.com> Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > > > It sounds more like you don't know where to look since I can't imagine a > > city the size of Philly not having quite a bit of stuff around. If people > > I live about 30 minutes from Philly by way of I-95. In the boonies. > > As for flea markets, I have NEVER seen a computer for sale (I still go and > hope tho...) and advertising seems a little too much as I barely have > enough room for the 25 or so computers I have already! > > Les > more@crazy.rutgers.edu Les, I also live 30 minutes outside of Philly. There are a number of places to find great classic computers. Just three weeks ago, I found a front panel IMSAI 8080 and another S-100 kit for $10 at a flea market in NJ. The IMSAI is in perfect working condition, except for four broken plastic switches. By the way, can anyone tell me the address of the place that sells the switches? The kit is unlabeled except for it says Xitan or maybe Xitac on the motherboard (I'm at work and can't check right now.) I agree with Les that the Salvation Army and Goodwill stores around here never have any classic computers worth buying. Ted tedbird@ix.netcom.com From tedbird at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 19 07:55:51 1997 From: tedbird at ix.netcom.com (Ted Birdsell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: AIM65 References: <970618201031_-628125255@emout19.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33A92C57.F83@ix.netcom.com> Hi, Count me in on the AIM65. Ted tedbird@ix.netcom.com From tedbird at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 19 08:04:34 1997 From: tedbird at ix.netcom.com (Ted Birdsell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Front Panel IMSAI 8080/ Altair 8800b Turnkey for trade References: <970618201031_-628125255@emout19.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33A92E62.3C38@ix.netcom.com> Hi, I have a front panel IMSAI 8080 and an Altair 8800b Turnkey for trade. I would be willing to trade for other computers of equal vintage. I am especially looking for a Processor Technology Sol. I am interested in trade only, I will not sell the units. Email me with any interesting trade offers. Ted tedbird@ix.netcom.com From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jun 19 08:11:11 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? Message-ID: <199706191308.IAA21041@challenge.sunflower.com> You do need the system disks in order to make copies of disks. ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Apple ][e software? > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 1997 8:50 PM > > On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > > > Greetings: > > > > I just picked up an Apple ][e, monitor, disk drives, the whole works... > > even a mouse! But, I am wondering if someone out there might be able to > > sell me a copy of the Disk Operating System disks and maybe one or two > > (more?...) game disks? > > > > Please get in touch with me at the below address, e-mail, or phoen number, > > if you might have something like that which I could use to get the system > > going. > > Cord, forget about the system disks. You don't actually need them. The > Apple was the kind of computer where you could use it with or without > disks, although having software made it more useful. Each disk for the > apple is self-contained and has whatever DOS it needs to run it. Your > main concern right now is to get software for it, whatever that may be - > games, utilities, productivity, etc. Find the apple users group near you > (if there is one) or go to comp.sys.apple where you will find a ton of > information on how and where to obtain apple software. Its not hard to > find, there were literally tens of thousands of titles published for the > Apple ][. If you've never had an Apple before, you want to go out and > start collecting ssome of the games released for it, as there are some > fun titles. But as far as system disks, if you want to round out your > collection, then I guess you would want an original copy just to say you > have them, but every Apple I ever got was second-hand, and I already had > software from the previous apple I was upgrading from, and having the > original system disks was a moot point, as there were so many other more > useful disks to have. > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kyrrin at wizards.net Thu Jun 19 09:01:06 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: 'Orange Wall' FREE! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619070106.00f814c8@mail.wizards.net> Ok, got another freebie for the group. I have the infamous DEC 'Orange Wall' worth of docs on VMS 4.whatever, at least a couple of big boxes worth. As I don't anticipate running VMS (heck, I don't own a big VAX!) anytime soon, I would rather see these go to someone who needs them. If no one speaks up, I'll recycle the innards and use the binders. First one who wants to visit me in Kent, WA can have 'em! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jun 19 09:29:50 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Good Emulators & floppies (was: C64 CP/M carts (was:...)) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970614233211.006b92f4@post.keme.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619102950.009db5c0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Doug Spence said: >Please stop assuming I've joined the Evil Empire. My only PC compatibles >are my A1060 Sidecar on my Amiga 1000, which no longer has a 5.25" floppy >drive as I put a hard drive in its bay, and a Tandy 1000EX, which has no >way of communicating with anything else that I own because ALL it has is >a 360K floppy drive. "Evil Empire?" == Use the Farce, Duke! == First, if you have an Atari ST, (and I think TOS 1.4 or above... getting my ST next weekend! Wheeeee! ;-) it can read/write/format PC floppies. Second, if the EX's drive controller can handle double-sided drives, replace the SSDD drive with a DSDD one and get 720K storage, and the capability to read other 720K floppies... BTW, you mentioned in the original post that you own a 1541 C= drive... would you like to hook that up to the EX? There's a way to run that drive thru the serial port, takes a 1 or 2 chip converter board, and I've seen the dox on this... but I'm not a Commie fan (sorry... had to say that ;^) but ISTR that the circuit is very similar to the one used to hook up the Atari 8-bit series drives (810 / 1050 / Indus, etc.) to an IBM as well. >Emulators can be fun, but I've never met an emulator that was as good as >the real thing. Excepting Macintosh emulators, of course. :) Well, given your disliking of PC-Clones, you obviously have not heard about Jeff Vavasour's emulators that run on the Intel platform. He's got emulators for the Tandy Model 1, 3 and 4, and the Tandy Color Computer 2 and 3. I ran the CoCo 2 emulator (freeware) and liked it so much, that I bought ($25-shareware) the CoCo 3 emulator... and ***Love*** it! I have full info on this program for any CoCoNuts out there, and remember: Just 'cause you ain't seen it, don't mean it ain't there! I've got the fastest CoCo in the area! (Running the emu on a P150+... Whoohoo!!! ;-) Anyway, gotta go, and have fun emulating! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jun 19 09:33:40 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <199706191155.3182@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619103340.009ecd20@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: [snip] >The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data >clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more >sectors on said tracks. > >I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data >clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle >up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time). > >> >> That's how it gets 21 sectors on tracks 1 to 17, 20 sectors on tracks 18 >> to 24, 18 sectors on tracks 24 to 30, and 17 sectors on tracks 31 to 35. >> >> AFAIK, all PET-era CBM drives do this, and the 1540 and 1541 drives do as >> well. > >> Doug Spence >> ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca >-tony >ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk Righto, Tony! There are programs that you can get for IBM PC's that do this and you can store 1.8Megs on a 1.44Meg drive! (Didn't the Apple and Amiga do this with there 800K and 880K drives, respectively?) See Ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From ghjorth at sn.no Thu Jun 19 13:26:17 1997 From: ghjorth at sn.no (Thomas Christopher Jarvis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 88 In-Reply-To: <199706190702.AAA32450@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Would somebody please unsubscribe me from this list? Thank you. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Jun 19 10:07:06 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970619103340.009ecd20@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: I snipped blank lines... On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: > [snip] > >The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data > >clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more > >sectors on said tracks. > >I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data > >clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle > >up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time). > >> That's how it gets 21 sectors on tracks 1 to 17, 20 sectors on tracks 18 > >> to 24, 18 sectors on tracks 24 to 30, and 17 sectors on tracks 31 to 35. > >> AFAIK, all PET-era CBM drives do this, and the 1540 and 1541 drives do as > >> well. > >> Doug Spence > >> ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > >-tony > >ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > Righto, Tony! There are programs that you can get for IBM PC's that do this > and you can store 1.8Megs on a 1.44Meg drive! > (Didn't the Apple and Amiga do this with there 800K and 880K drives, > respectively?) With Linux (Or any Unix) I can get 2.0 meg on a 1.44 meg floppy. Those disks are actually 2.0 meg, with .66 meg taken up by the filesystem. By using the disk as a raw device, I can get tar to put 2 meg on a disk. From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Jun 19 10:22:56 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 Message-ID: <01IK92HXLNJ69GV5UB@cc.usu.edu> > It seems every time I turn around, I find something else I either > haven't seen in a while, or don't know anything about it. In this case, > I picked up a brand new Digilog 1500 some number of years ago. It is > not on the "Big List" so does anyone know anything about this? Yeah, I know a little about Digilogs. Used to use one quite a bit; when I started working here, that was the CP/M machine of choice and we had a couple of them (the non-CP/M machine of choice were the Micro PDP-11s that DEC kept throwing at us). Someone had built a custom interface between one of them and a PC05 to punch paper tape to ship out to folks who did our wire-wrapping (the software to generate the paper tapes was either in FORTRAN on the PDP-11s or PL/I-80 on the Digilogs; shortly after I arrived we moved the FORTRAN version to the VAX-11/780 we had just installed (sigh; I was the only user of the 11/780 most of the time and I had a whole gigabyte of RM05s to play with; those were the days), so I never had to use the PL/I-80 version of the wirewrap software). We started picking up Televideo 802s and 803s about that time and migrated from the Digilog to them. No promises, but I _may_ have a CP/M boot disk for the thing and (depending on how recently my cow-orkers have cleaned their offices) I may be able to find a bit of technical info. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 19 10:29:21 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > Please stop assuming I've joined the Evil Empire. My only PC compatibles > are my A1060 Sidecar on my Amiga 1000, which no longer has a 5.25" floppy > drive as I put a hard drive in its bay, and a Tandy 1000EX, which has no > way of communicating with anything else that I own because ALL it has is > a 360K floppy drive. Whaddaya mean the 1000EX can't communicate. It's got a serial port. Where's your null-modem? The single most important tool in the _world_ for anybody with incompatible systems. Even when I was a child of thirty with a Color Computer, a TRS-80 4P, a TRS-80 Mod 16, a Tandy 2000 and an AT&T 3B1, my null-modems were the only to move stuff. (It was also the best way to use the Tandy 2000 for its two purposes: terminal to the Xenix and Unix boxes -- great keyboard -- and as a 512k serial/parallel converter and print buffer between the other machines and my sole MX-80 printer). > > Emulator BBS > > 01284 760851 > > Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE > > Emulators can be fun, but I've never met an emulator that was as good as > the real thing. Excepting Macintosh emulators, of course. :) There's something fun about running a TRS-80 (or other 8-bit) emulator under a PC emulator on a Unix box. Levels of abstraction... -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 10:41:23 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 References: <01IK92HXLNJ69GV5UB@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <33A95323.53EA@rain.org> Roger Ivie wrote: > > > It seems every time I turn around, I find something else I either > > haven't seen in a while, or don't know anything about it. In this case, > > I picked up a brand new Digilog 1500 some number of years ago. It is > > not on the "Big List" so does anyone know anything about this? > > No promises, but I _may_ have a CP/M boot disk for the thing and (depending > on how recently my cow-orkers have cleaned their offices) I may be able to > find a bit of technical info. > Wow, that would be great! It would also be good to get enough information to add it to the "Big List" that Bill maintains. In any case, thanks for the info! From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Jun 19 10:45:44 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 In-Reply-To: <33A95323.53EA@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Roger Ivie wrote: > > > > > It seems every time I turn around, I find something else I either > > > haven't seen in a while, or don't know anything about it. In this case, > > > I picked up a brand new Digilog 1500 some number of years ago. It is > > > not on the "Big List" so does anyone know anything about this? > > > > No promises, but I _may_ have a CP/M boot disk for the thing and (depending > > on how recently my cow-orkers have cleaned their offices) I may be able to > > find a bit of technical info. > > > > Wow, that would be great! It would also be good to get enough > information to add it to the "Big List" that Bill maintains. In any > case, thanks for the info! > Hmm. One of my friends got a LOT of apple II stuff from a business that went under. One of the things he got was an 8" CP/M disk. I'm gonna go try to get my hands on it. (It said CP/M on it). It may be destroyed/gone by now. This was a year or two ago, before I got interested in old stuff... Any way to tell what system it's for without being able to read it? From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Jun 19 11:07:05 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: <199706191308.IAA21041@challenge.sunflower.com> from "Bill Girnius" at Jun 19, 97 08:11:11 am Message-ID: <199706191607.KAA17551@calico.litterbox.com> You can also get the most recent versions of apple2 operating systems from ftp.apple.com. A great place to get information on the a2 world is Nathan Mates apple2 faq at http://www.visi.com/~nathan/a2/faq/csa2.html -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Jun 19 10:58:36 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 Message-ID: <01IK93WLN43M9GV5UB@cc.usu.edu> > Hmm. One of my friends got a LOT of apple II stuff from a business that > went under. One of the things he got was an 8" CP/M disk. I'm gonna go > try to get my hands on it. (It said CP/M on it). It may be > destroyed/gone by now. This was a year or two ago, before I got > interested in old stuff... Any way to tell what system it's for without > being able to read it? You usually can't tell what system it's for even _with_ being able to read it. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jun 19 10:59:47 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > > Please stop assuming I've joined the Evil Empire. My only PC compatibles > > Whaddaya mean the 1000EX can't communicate. It's got a serial port. IIRC, it in fact does _not_ have a serial port! There was a serial card available using the proprietary expansion bus. Good luck finding one of those now. My memories are actually of the 1000HX, which I believe was basically the same thing but with 3.5" drive instead of 5.25" (And maybe more RAM?) ttfn srw From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 17:10:51 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: ; from "Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers" at Jun 19, 97 11:29 am Message-ID: <199706191610.10894@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Where's your null-modem? The single most important tool in the _world_ > for anybody with incompatible systems. Even when I was a child of thirty The second most useeful tool is a 'Christmas Tree' - one of those little RS232 adapters with red and green lights for the most important signals (TxD, RxD, RTS, CTS, DSR, DTR and CR). They sell for about \pounds 12.00 (say < $20.00) in the UK. Although I have a good breakout box, a data error rate tester and a Tektronix Datacoms analyser, I use the 'Christmas Tree' a lot more than any of the other serial testers. It's small, convenient, and if it does go walkabout, I can afford to replace it. It's useful for figuring out if you need a null-modem cable (what pins are inputs and what are outputs), what handshake lines are in use, etc. > > > Emulator BBS > > > 01284 760851 > > > Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE > > > > Emulators can be fun, but I've never met an emulator that was as good as > > the real thing. Excepting Macintosh emulators, of course. :) > > There's something fun about running a TRS-80 (or other 8-bit) emulator > under a PC emulator on a Unix box. Levels of abstraction... I really don't see the interest in emulators if the real hardware still exists. I'd much rather have the real thing, and have all the fun of maintaining it, than have a piece of software (probably without source) running on a PC that I can't get spare chips for. Perhaps it's because I'm a hardware hacker, but emulators seem to lack so much compared to the phyusical machine. > Ward Griffiths -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 17:12:19 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: ; from "Scott Walde" at Jun 19, 97 9:59 am Message-ID: <199706191612.11027@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > IIRC, it in fact does _not_ have a serial port! There was a serial card > available using the proprietary expansion bus. Good luck finding one of > those now. IIRC, that expansion bus was pin-pin compatible with a stadard 8-bit ISA connector. It should be possible to kludge up an adapter cable (keep it as short as possible) to use a normal PC serial card in the EX. Trace the ground and power lines to figure out which way round the connector is, and which side is which. > ttfn > srw -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 19 12:13:37 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 19, 97 10:45:44 am Message-ID: <9706191613.AA23653@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1345 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970619/90161730/attachment-0001.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 19 12:28:12 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count In-Reply-To: <33A92A93.5C23@ix.netcom.com> from "Ted Birdsell" at Jun 19, 97 08:48:19 am Message-ID: <9706191628.AA04295@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1202 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970619/65e694e1/attachment-0001.ksh From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Thu Jun 19 11:34:33 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? Message-ID: <970619113433.20400f02@wartburg.edu> >You do need the system disks in order to make copies of disks. Maybe. For the longest time, I didn't have a DOS 3.3 System Master for my IIGS. I thought DOS 3.3 was a neat OS because you could make your own bootable disks easily. (You can with ProDOS too, but I didn't know that at the time.) I managed to get DOS 3.3 by finding a game or something that ran on DOS 3.3, halting it with Control-C to get to the Applesoft BASIC prompt, then using the file commands such as INIT to make a new disk. I can't remember if DOS 3.3 has a built-in command that will copy a disk... There's probably a way to do it. -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 19 12:37:46 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: <970619113433.20400f02@wartburg.edu> from "Andy Brobston" at Jun 19, 97 11:34:33 am Message-ID: <9706191637.AA26443@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 565 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970619/94b82e43/attachment-0001.ksh From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Thu Jun 19 11:40:55 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? Message-ID: <970619114055.20400f02@wartburg.edu> >> I managed to get DOS 3.3 by finding a game or something that ran on >> DOS 3.3, halting it with Control-C to get to the Applesoft BASIC >> prompt, then using the file commands such as INIT to make a new disk. >> I can't remember if DOS 3.3 has a built-in command that will copy a >> disk... There's probably a way to do it. > >It's not built-in, but the DOS 3.3 distributions have the Intbasic >program COPY which will do what you want. If you've got one of >these crippled II+'s or later that only have Applesoft, you can >still use COPYA. I'm wondering if there's a way to hack code to get it to copy without any System Master programs. I don't remember. I know the easy way out would be just to get the System Master, but now I'm just curious. :) -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jun 19 12:18:55 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: <970619114055.20400f02@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: >I'm wondering if there's a way to hack code to get it to copy without >any System Master programs. I don't remember. I know the easy way out >would be just to get the System Master, but now I'm just curious. :) Of course... call -151, then write a 6502 program to do it :-) If DOS3.3 is resident in RAM it shouldn't be too hard... but I'd rather just use Locksmith 5.0 ttfn srw From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jun 19 12:20:35 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Here are the Tandy 600 specs Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053B1593@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Tandy 600 Introduced: October 28, 1985 CPU: 80C88 RAM: 32K expandable to 224K in 96K increments Display: Flip-up 80x16 LCD Storage: Internal 3.5" 360K floppy (storage only, not bootable) Ports: RS-232 and Centronics parallel Bus: Proprietary for external floppy or "other peripherals" One option ROM socket (accessible by removing Multiplan) that holds BASIC or other ROMs Power: AC adapter, and built-in NiCd batteries Modem: Internal 300 baud Operating System: Proprietary ROM Applications: Built-in System Manager, Word, Calendar, File, Telcom and Multiplan BASIC: Optional ROM cartridge Keyboard: 72-key Pricing: Base system $1599 BASIC ROM $129 96K RAM upgrade $399 From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jun 19 12:31:44 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Rockwell AIM 65 ad Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053B15B4@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> From william at ans.net Thu Jun 19 12:47:35 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: DEC RL02K DC Disk Pack In-Reply-To: <33A81003.3327@rain.org> Message-ID: <199706191747.AA07493@interlock.ans.net> > A friend of mine wants to get rid of a bunch of DEC RL02K Disk Packs. > He has about 24 or so without boxes and another 6 or so still in the > original DEC shipping box. The one I have here says "BC-AV02G-BC, RT-11 > update G bin RL02" and the date is 1986. These disk packs are about 14" > or so in diameter. Anyone have any idea what these might be worth or > who would be interested? My guess is somewhere around $5 each but I > really don't have any idea. Thanks. Where are they? William Donzelli william@ans.net From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 13:14:00 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: DEC RL02K DC Disk Pack References: <199706191747.AA07493@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <33A976E8.4952@rain.org> William Donzelli wrote: > > > A friend of mine wants to get rid of a bunch of DEC RL02K Disk Packs. > > He has about 24 or so without boxes and another 6 or so still in the > > Where are they? > Right now they are in my garage as he needed to get more space in his classroom. If you mean what geographical area are they in, I am in Santa Barbara, California. From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 19 13:29:36 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970619112943.4acf8aee@ricochet.net> At 12:12 AM 6/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >> If they're shipped to the bay area, I've got lots of boxes and packing >Uh, but what of us here on the other coast (where the devices are to start >with)? (I'm in the same area code, actually). Damn, but I wish I was Oh, sure, keep 'em there before distributing them. *Don't* send 'em across the country before sending 'em back. Go ahead, be normal. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 19 13:29:38 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970619112945.4acfa3c4@ricochet.net> At 07:38 AM 6/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >> standard (IIRC). Was the first computer to use variable speed disk drives Okay, I dug up where I got that idea from (ACM/Computer Museum Computer Bowl, 1994, Round 3, Toss up question #6): "6. The Victor 9000 computer featured an innovative design in its disk drives. What was unique about the disk drives?" and the answer was: "6. Variable speed" So in between reading that, and now, "innovative" transmogrified into "first of its kind". Sorry about that! >That's how it gets 21 sectors on tracks 1 to 17, 20 sectors on tracks 18 >to 24, 18 sectors on tracks 24 to 30, and 17 sectors on tracks 31 to 35. I thought the idea of variable speed drives was to have the same number/sized sectors on each track? Perhaps I goofed there too... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 19 13:29:46 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: Good Emulators & floppies (was: C64 CP/M carts (was:...)) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970619112956.4acffe6a@ricochet.net> At 10:29 AM 6/19/97 -0400, you wrote: >"Evil Empire?" == Use the Farce, Duke! == First, if you have an Atari ST, >(and I think TOS 1.4 or above... getting my ST next weekend! Wheeeee! ;-) >it can read/write/format PC floppies. The atari ST could always (well, production models on, anyway) read/write PC floppies. Formatting, however, was initially a problem. It seems there's an unused field somewhere in the admin stuff on a pc floppy that Atari figured didn't matter. So they left it blank. But, for some reason, IBM machines needed some value in there. (I'm probably way oversimplifying, and making errors...) So floppies formatted on the atari worked fine on the atari, but if you wanted to use the floppy on both machines, you needed to format it on the PC (or use a third party formatter that fixed the problem.) Some later version of TOS (1.4?) fixed this. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 19 13:29:59 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:27 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970619113006.4acffc4c@ricochet.net> At 05:10 PM 6/19/97 BST, you wrote: >I really don't see the interest in emulators if the real hardware still >exists. I'd much rather have the real thing, and have all the fun of >maintaining it, than have a piece of software (probably without source) >running on a PC that I can't get spare chips for. Perhaps it's because I'm >a hardware hacker, but emulators seem to lack so much compared to the >phyusical machine. Perhaps it's because you have a bigger apartment? I know a lot of folks running ST emulators on PC's because they wanted both, but didn't have the room... "lack so much compared to the physical machine..." yeah, 2nd ps, 2nd keyboard, 2nd monitor... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 19:36:26 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970619113006.4acffc4c@ricochet.net>; from "Uncle Roger" at Jun 19, 97 11:29 am Message-ID: <199706191836.20643@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > At 05:10 PM 6/19/97 BST, you wrote: > >I really don't see the interest in emulators if the real hardware still > >exists. I'd much rather have the real thing, and have all the fun of > >maintaining it, than have a piece of software (probably without source) > >running on a PC that I can't get spare chips for. Perhaps it's because I'm > >a hardware hacker, but emulators seem to lack so much compared to the > >phyusical machine. > > Perhaps it's because you have a bigger apartment? I know a lot of folks > running ST emulators on PC's because they wanted both, but didn't have the > room... Oh, come on, an ST is _tiny_ compared to the sort of machines I run. I'd have no problem fitting another one into my 'machine room'. Now, if somebody offered me a PDP12, I'd start having problems.. > > "lack so much compared to the physical machine..." yeah, 2nd ps, 2nd > keyboard, 2nd monitor... 8^) The monitor is no real problem. As I mentioned here a month back, there's only about 2 or 3 monitors you need for almost all classic computers. Us workstation fanatics have more of a problem there, of course... Why is the PSU a problem? I guess it's easier over here, where we have 240V and 30A ring-mains with 13A socket outlets (imagine if the standard US circuit was 60A (if you're lucky, _per room_!) and had 26A sockets), but finding somewhere to plug another machine in is not a big problem. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Jun 19 13:40:46 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970619113006.4acffc4c@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 05:10 PM 6/19/97 BST, you wrote: > >I really don't see the interest in emulators if the real hardware still > >exists. I'd much rather have the real thing, and have all the fun of > >maintaining it, than have a piece of software (probably without source) > >running on a PC that I can't get spare chips for. Perhaps it's because I'm > >a hardware hacker, but emulators seem to lack so much compared to the > >phyusical machine. > > Perhaps it's because you have a bigger apartment? I know a lot of folks > running ST emulators on PC's because they wanted both, but didn't have the > room... > > "lack so much compared to the physical machine..." yeah, 2nd ps, 2nd > keyboard, 2nd monitor... 8^) I like my real PDP better than the emulated one. The real one has one feature that E11, and Supnik 2.2, and all the rest can NEVER have that annoys my family to no end - THE EAR-SPLITTING NOISE! :) It drives them Nuts, and I can't get enough of it! There's nothing like powering up the 11/23 and hearing that "Bwaaaaa!" as it all spins up - then it becomes a gentle roar (I don't have a rack or case of it, so it sits out on a table). Everyone leaves, and I'm free to hack alone. Not to mention the emotional satisfaction that you own a piece of history - No matter how big or inefficient the piece! Which was the primary reason I went out of my way to get one. And the reason I kept my CoCo, and my C64. From pcoad at crl.com Thu Jun 19 13:29:46 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: STacy Was: yo In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970618123247.0947dec4@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 11:51 AM 6/17/97 -0700, you wrote: > >IIRC it was a 1040ST motherboard in a laptop case. They come up for > >sale once in a while in the Atari ST news groups. It seems to me > > The last STacy I saw sold went for about $750 -- about a year ago. They > still get close to that; they're still popular with musicians. > You know, that was around the last time I visited any of the ST news groups. Kinda funny how that works. :-) They are holding value pretty well, but then again they are pretty cool. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 19:49:15 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970619112945.4acfa3c4@ricochet.net>; from "Uncle Roger" at Jun 19, 97 11:29 am Message-ID: <199706191849.21265@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I thought the idea of variable speed drives was to have the same > number/sized sectors on each track? Perhaps I goofed there too... Let's go through this logically. Virtually all standard floppy drives (and a lot of 'classic' hard drives) rotate at a cosntant speed, which for the purposes of this discussion I'll take as 300rpm (The speed of a 'standard' low density 5.25" disk). So, the disk takes 0.2s to rotate once. Most controllers write the bits to the disk at a constant rate. There are thus a constant number of bits sent out in 0.2s, and thus a constant number of bits (or equivalently a constant number of sectors of a given constant size) written in one revolution of the disk. However, the outer tracks are longer than the inner ones (a simple matter of geometry). So, data bits on the outside tracks take up more area on the disk than ones on the inner tracks. Now, assuming we only need a constant area to store a single bit, it's obvious that space is being wasted on the longer outside tracks. There are 2 ways rounds this. The one used by Commodore on the 1541 and the 8050 (and AFAIK all other classic Commodore drives) was to keep the disk turning at a constant speed (300rpm IIRC) and to write the data bits faster on the outer tracks. Thus, they could write more data in that constant 0.2s I mentioned earlier. The one used by Victor (I believe, I've not seen a Technical Manual) was to keep the data rate constant, but to slow the disk down when writing to the outside tracks (or equivalently to speed it up on the inner ones). The result was that there was more time to write data to the outside tracks, so (at a constant data rate) you could fit more on the disk. In neither case was the number of sectors per track constant (obvious if you require all sectors to be of the same size, which makes writing the file system a lot easier). > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 19:52:06 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: ; from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 19, 97 1:40 pm Message-ID: <199706191852.21343@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > I like my real PDP better than the emulated one. The real one has one > feature that E11, and Supnik 2.2, and all the rest can NEVER have that > annoys my family to no end - THE EAR-SPLITTING NOISE! :) It drives them > Nuts, and I can't get enough of it! There's nothing like powering up the > 11/23 and hearing that "Bwaaaaa!" as it all spins up - then it becomes a Hmmm... Try an 11/45 + 2 expansion boxes + 8 demountable drives + PERQ1 as a terminal for an ear-splitting noise. There must be at least 30 fans in that system, probably more :-) And then there's the waste heat. A few years ago we had a 'heat wave'. The temperatures were well above the maximum specified in the DEC manuals. The 11/45 carried on running as if nothing was wrong, but alas I didn't.... -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 19 15:14:34 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: <970619114055.20400f02@wartburg.edu> from "Andy Brobston" at Jun 19, 97 11:40:55 am Message-ID: <9706191914.AA26513@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1036 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970619/ea2c96f5/attachment-0001.ksh From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Thu Jun 19 14:20:36 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? Message-ID: <970619142036.20401744@wartburg.edu> >> I'm wondering if there's a way to hack code to get it to copy without >> any System Master programs. > >Oh, sure. Just take a look at the description of the RWTS >(Read - write - track/sector) routines >in the Apple _DOS 3.3 Manual_. (You know, the one with the Disk ][ >and controller schematics.) You could probably come up with a >basic sector duplicator using a dozen lines of BASIC, sprinkled >liberally with PEEKs, POKEs, and CALLs. I could do it if I was at home, but I don't have all the manuals at college with me. So, I'm attempting to rely on memory (I'm pretty sure I've done something like this with RWTS before). I know a lot of times, instead of using the boring INIT command to format a new disk, I would use the RWTS version just for kicks. Too bad you really can't have as much fun with new computers. :) -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 19 14:11:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Collector Article Message-ID: Here's an article Doug Coward forwarded to me. You guys will get a kick out of it, especially the price list at the end. $200-$400 for an Apple ][...yeah right. I have some property on the moon... Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass 02490420 60320 THE CUTTING EDGE A Byte of History Techies Taking a Scroll Down Memory Lane Los Angeles Times (LT) - MONDAY August 12, 1996 By: GREG MILLER; TIMES STAFF WRITER Edition: Home Edition Section: Business Page: 1 Pt. D Story Type: Main Story; Infobox Word Count: 1,797 TEXT: The nerds are getting nostalgic. Barely 20 years into the personal computer revolution, techies across the country are growing increasingly sentimental about the machines and programs that changed their lives and ushered in the Information Age. For them, booting up a vintage Commodore PET computer can conjure misty-eyed memories. Toggling the switches of an Altair 8800 is better than gripping the gearshift of a first car. And a shrink-wrapped copy of VisiCalc software beats a mint-condition Mickey Mantle baseball card any day. This is the memorabilia of the PC generation, and after spending much of the last decade or two collecting dust in suburban garages from Silicon Valley to Boston's Route 128, it's starting to make a comeback. Virtual museums of vintage hardware and software are sprouting up all over the Internet's World Wide Web, as are online classified ads placed by collectors desperate to reacquire the technological wonders of their youth. Some rare PCs are fetching much higher prices now than they did when they were brand-new, and even revered institutions such as the Smithsonian are bolstering their computer collections. "The amount of activity that I see is amazing," said Kip Crosby, president of the Computer History Assn. of California in Palo Alto. "People are always asking me: 'Can you find me an Altair? Can you find this or that?' I get 10 to 20 phone calls and e-mails a month, twice as many as a year ago." Most of these early machines and programs, which didn't work very well when they were new, are even more troublesome to maintain now--and have been rendered obsolete by wave after wave of new equipment. But like certain cars or baseball cards, high-tech relics are somehow enhanced by the passage of time. Collectors see them as the symbols of a more colorful computer age populated by legendary personalities who became billionaires--or, in some cases, went bust. "That's why I'm interested in computer history," said Co Ho, 30, an Internet administrator at Fullerton College. "Many people could have made it big, but they fell asleep and ended up having somebody else eating their cake." Ho collects vintage software, especially programs that changed the computing landscape but somehow faltered. One of his favorite pieces is CP/M, an early operating system created by Digital Research. CP/M might have become the operating system had Digital Research's founder, the late Gary Kildall, been more hospitable when IBM came calling to license his software. In a legendary blunder, Kildall and his wife refused to sign IBM's confidentiality agreement, and IBM executives took their business to a then-tiny company known as Microsoft. "CP/M missed the boat because of casual behavior," Ho said. "It's really a sad story." Ho is one of the few people who collect software. More collect hardware, and one of the most sought-after machines is the Altair 8800, introduced by MITS Inc. of Albuquerque in 1975. It didn't have a keyboard or a monitor, only rows of switches on the front of the box. The Altair kit sold for $395 when it was new, but one in good condition today can fetch as much as $1,500 because of the exalted position it holds in computer history. Widely regarded as the first mass-market personal computer, it launched a craze when it appeared on the cover of the January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics. Bill Gates even dropped out of Harvard to develop an early version of the Basic programming language for the Altair. The Altair "established Bill Gates in business," said Gwen Bell, founder of the Computer Museum, a Boston mecca for computer lovers. "One of our prize treasures is the original Basic tape that Bill Gates developed on the Altair." Collectors tend to pass over some of the most popular early machines, such as the original IBM PC and the 1984 Apple Macintosh, because there are just too many of them. Scarcity counts, which helps explain why the most valuable collectible is the Apple I. Introduced by Steven Jobs and Stephen Wozniak in 1976, the Apple I was nothing more than a circuit board. It had no keyboard, no monitor, not even a case. It sold for $666, and only a few hundred were produced. A well-preserved Apple I can fetch as much as $12,000 today, sometimes more. An Apple I signed by Jobs and Wozniak sold for $22,000 at a fund-raiser auction for the Computer Museum several months ago, Bell said. That kind of appreciation has attracted the attention of even non-techie collectors. "I got a call from an investment advisor for a Wall Street banker," Bell said. "He asked: 'Should I get him into collecting old computers? Will they increase in value more than art?' I said, 'I don't know--I'm not a dealer.' " In fact, there aren't any prominent dealers of antique computers, at least not yet. But a few collectors are hoping to change that, including David Greelish, founder of the Historical Computer Society in Jacksonville, Fla. Greelish, a computer repairman, has spent about $2,600 in recent years building a collection of 35 computers, mostly by trolling for bargains on the Internet. He uses search engines such as Yahoo to root out online classified ads for Altairs and other vintage machines, and he keeps an eye on alt.folklore.computers, a newsgroup where history buffs hang out. "Ultimately, I would like to see (the Historical Computer Society) grow and publish magazines and books," he said. "I'd like to start displaying our collection and even restoring computers for sale." Greelish and others said would-be collectors should look for machines that look clean, have all the original equipment and documentation and still run. A number of guidebooks are available, including Stan Veit's "History of the Personal Computer," published by WorldComm in Asheville, N.C., and "A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators," published by Krause Publications in Iola, Wis. Experts urge caution, however. There's no guarantee that old computers will grow in value, and they are very difficult to maintain. "If you've never opened up your computer and looked inside, this is probably not the collectible for you," Bell said. Instead, experts say, this is a hobby better left to people who were enthralled by the recent PBS documentary "Triumph of the Nerds," people who still have a soft spot for monochrome terminals, "Chiclet" keyboards and the odd shapes of the early machines. But even among techies, there are plenty of people who scoff at this new fad, including Kim Nelson, service manager at ACP Superstore in Santa Ana. Founded 20 years ago, ACP is one of the oldest computer stores in Southern California, holds swap meets that attract legions of collectors, and might be one of the region's best unofficial museums. The store's top shelves are crammed with artifacts of computer history, although Nelson calls it junk. "Isn't it amazing that we have computer folklore now," he said, walking with a reporter along rows of vintage Commodores, Imsais and Tandys. "That's kind of sad when you think about it. Seems to me there are things that are a lot more important." But as he uttered those words, service technician John Krill walked by and surveyed the line of creaky machines. Almost against his will, Nelson was sucked into an episode of technology reverie. "Look at that Kaypro," Krill said. "That company grew so fast they were warehousing their inventory in tents." "Weren't they the ones that had the fire too?" asked Nelson, perking up just a bit and eager to demonstrate his techno-trivia prowess. The conversation drifted from machine to machine. "When I was in college, I would just leave my Osborne up in the library," Krill said with a laugh, recalling the immobility of the first portable computer. "The damned thing weighed 27 pounds. I didn't want to lug it around." Fifteen minutes passed before the two realized that their walk down memory lane might have strained the attention span of their guest. "That's enough, John," Nelson finally said with an embarrassed grin. "You're boring him." Greg Miller can be reached via e-mail at greg.miller atimes.com (BEGIN TEXT OF INFOBOX / INFOGRAPHIC) Computer Collectibles Here are some of the PCs attracting the attention of nostalgic techies: Model: Apple I Year introduced: 1976 Original price: $666 Current value: $10,000-$12,000 * Model: Mark-8 Year introduced: 1974 Original price: $250 Current value: $3,500-$4,000 * Model: Scelbi 8H Year introduced: 1973 Original price: $440 Current value: $1,200-$1,500 * Model: Altair 8800 Year introduced: 1975 Original price: $395 Current value: $1,200-$1,500 * Model: Imsai 8080 Year introduced: 1975 Original price: $440 Current value: $400-$600 * Model: Apple II Year introduced: 1977 Original price: $1,195 Current value: $200-$400 * Model: Osborne I Year introduced: 1981 Original price: $1,795 Current value: $200-$300 Descriptions: Apple I: With no monitor, no keyboard and no case, the Apple I was little more than a circuit board. Only a few hundred were produced. Mark-8: A kit computer that was the subject of the first magazine article describing how to build a computer. The article appeared in Radio Electronics Magazine in 1974. Scelbi: Predated the Altair and was the first computer based on a microprocessor advertised for sale. Only a small number was made. Altair 8800: Programmed by switches, the Altair 8800 had no keyboard, no monitor and just 256 bytes of memory. But it is widely regarded as the first mass-market personal computer. The Altair, based on an Intel processor, started a craze when it appeared on the cover of Popular Electronics magazine in January 1975. Imsai 8080: Modeled on the Altair, the Imsai had several technological advances and a more polished look. Had no keyboard or monitor but was briefly the fastest-selling personal computer. Apple II: This is the machine that launched the company--and the personal computer industry. Apple II computers came with a keyboard, monitor and two disk drives. Most important, they ran VisiCalc, the original spreadsheet program that was the personal computer's "killer application." Osborne I: Considered the first portable computer, even though it weighed about 30 pounds and was the size of a suitcase. It had a 5-inch screen, two floppy disk drives and 64K of RAM. Sources: Stan Veit's "History of the Personal Computer," published by WorldComm, Asheville, N.C.; David Greelish, president, Historical Computer Society, Jacksonville, Fla.; "A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators," published by Krause Publications in Iola, Wis. AL SCHABEN / Los Angeles Times From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jun 19 14:38:19 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: A Report: "Why I Like Emulators" In-Reply-To: <199706191610.10894@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619153819.00a77100@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: >I really don't see the interest in emulators if the real hardware still >exists. I'd much rather have the real thing, and have all the fun of >maintaining it, than have a piece of software (probably without source) >running on a PC that I can't get spare chips for. Perhaps it's because I'm >a hardware hacker, but emulators seem to lack so much compared to the >phyusical machine. For me: Speed & functions, pure and simple. Altho I'm designing my CoCo3 benchmark to see just how many Mhz-like CoCo my P150+ makes, think about this scenario: This cycle takes me 10-20 minutes(depending on # of changes) on my real CoCo3: Boot assembler/editor from disk, load program, make changes to program, assemble program in mem, <--| correct errors if necessary, --| save program, assemble program to disk, reboot machine (to start with clean slate), set up environment (clear ML memory, etc.) LOADM program, EXEC program, Watch Program die, lock up system (this is ML, you know ;-), reboot machine again, to recover from lockup, start cycle over. On my P150+ with emulated floppies on the hard drive, and the emulator also has the ability to save a snapshot of your entire environment, this cycle has been reduced to 1-4 minutes (depending on number of changes) making ML programming worthwhile (no thumb-twiddling) and I plan on writing some ML proggies for my wife & kids to use that I can burn into eprom and set up on a CoCo for them. Roughly guesstimating, I now have a 40 Mhz CoCo3 sitting on my hard drive at home... :-) Also, I plan on getting a CD-RW (that's re-writable!) within the next two weeks, and I plan on archiving all my software on CD-R... cain't do that on a CoCo! ;^> HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 20:44:43 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: A Report: "Why I Like Emulators" In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970619153819.00a77100@mail.northernway.net>; from "Roger Merchberger" at Jun 19, 97 3:38 pm Message-ID: <199706191944.23082@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: > > >I really don't see the interest in emulators if the real hardware still > >exists. I'd much rather have the real thing, and have all the fun of > >maintaining it, than have a piece of software (probably without source) > >running on a PC that I can't get spare chips for. Perhaps it's because I'm > >a hardware hacker, but emulators seem to lack so much compared to the > >phyusical machine. > > For me: > > Speed & functions, pure and simple. Altho I'm designing my CoCo3 benchmark > to see just how many Mhz-like CoCo my P150+ makes, think about this scenario: I think we're rather missing each other's points here. There's nothing at all 'wrong' with using an emulator as an aid to writing software or whatever to run on a classic computer. I know plenty of people who've used the PDP11 emulator to do just that. And I used one of the PDP8 emulators to try things on when I was rebuilding some bits of my 8/e. But too many people (not on this list, thankfully :-)) seem to regard the emualtor as a _replacement_ for preserving the hardware. This is what I commenting on... > > This cycle takes me 10-20 minutes(depending on # of changes) on my real CoCo3: On the ground that I have the world's slowest PC, I suspect my CoCo 3 would in fact be faster than the emulator. Add an 6809 In-circuit emulator (no, I don't have one yet, but I'm looking...) and I _know_ it would be faster. > Also, I plan on getting a CD-RW (that's re-writable!) within the next two > weeks, and I plan on archiving all my software on CD-R... cain't do that on > a CoCo! ;^> Give me one good reason why not? It should be _trivial_ to use a 5380 or something like it to make a SCSI cartridge for the CoCo. Add an OS-9 device driver and you should be able to burn CDs.... > > HTH, > "Merch" -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jun 19 14:51:26 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Here are the Tandy 600 specs In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053B1593@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619155126.009cf9f0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Kai Kaltenbach said: >Tandy 600 > >Introduced: > October 28, 1985 FYI: Mine was built in September, 1985, so I would imagine they would need some time to ramp up production for the introduction. >Storage: > Internal 3.5" 360K floppy > (storage only, not bootable) Not bootable, 'cause it boots from ROM. BTW, SSDD 80 Track, 9SPT. >Ports: > RS-232 and Centronics parallel >Bus: > Proprietary for external floppy or "other peripherals" I'm at work, 600 at home (awaiting new internal nicads...) but unless Tandy or Zenith (OEM) designed a floppy-port-based whatever, the external floppy port is a 1-for-1 pinout of a standard floppy interface... so you can hook up either a 3.5" or 5.25" floppy, provided it's 80 tracks or more. (That means I could hook up my 2" floppy, if I designed an interface cable, as it only has a 22-pin cable (all standard signals, plus power... just need to align the signals.) > One option ROM socket (accessible by removing > Multiplan) that holds BASIC or other ROMs >Power: > AC adapter, and built-in NiCd batteries AC adapter is 8V DC, 1.5A, IIRC. (hafta look when I get home...) >Modem: > Internal 300 baud >Operating System: > Proprietary ROM It's called HH/OS, (Hand-Held Operating System... tho I doubt you'd call the 600 a hand-held!) and it was produced by MicroSoft. >Applications: > Built-in System Manager, Word, Calendar, File, > Telcom and Multiplan >BASIC: > Optional ROM cartridge >Keyboard: > 72-key > >Pricing: > Base system $1599 > BASIC ROM $129 > 96K RAM upgrade $399 Didn't the Basic ROM originally cost $139.95, or did it go up from original? (I'll have to look that one up in my '89 catalog...) Tandy still sells the ROM, and they still want $120 for it!!!!! :-( HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com Thu Jun 19 14:59:26 1997 From: clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com (clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: the wonderful sound of big iron Message-ID: <97Jun19.131345pdt.32272@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> dseagrav @ bsdserver.tek-star.net wrote: >I like my real PDP better than the emulated one. The real one has one >feature that E11, and Supnik 2.2, and all the rest can NEVER have that >annoys my family to no end - THE EAR-SPLITTING NOISE! :) It drives them >Nuts, and I can't get enough of it! There's nothing like powering up the >11/23 and hearing that "Bwaaaaa!" as it all spins up - then it becomes a >gentle roar (I don't have a rack or case of it, so it sits out on a >table). Everyone leaves, and I'm free to hack alone. Not to mention the >emotional satisfaction that you own a piece of history - No matter how big >or inefficient the piece! Which was the primary reason I went out of my >way to get one. And the reason I kept my CoCo, and my C64. Has anyone who has their mini collection displayed on a web page put the *sound* of their machines on the net? I especially love the sound of those big fans and hard drives powering up. Whenever I get around to fixing up my 11/730, I'll definitely have to get a recording of it powering up: from the turn of the key, to the ratcheting sound of the TU58 microcode boot tape, to the sound of the LA-120 printing terminal printing the 'enter date and time' prompt. Actually, I don't have the LA-120, but remember the sounds. Clark Geisler Test Engineer Nortel From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu Jun 19 14:57:30 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 88 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Thomas Christopher Jarvis wrote: > Would somebody please unsubscribe me from this list? Thank you. Nope. Sorry - this is not a full-service listserve ;). You can unsub yourself - follow the instructions below. Bill ClassicCmp Regular Posting Mailing Lists and How to Talk to the List Robot Last Rev: 5/2/97 This message is posted with frequency proportional to subscription rate (or monthly). Point of contact: Bill Whitson (bcw@u.washington.edu) Mailing List Basics A mailing list is a simple device which takes an e-mail and redistributes it to a group of people. People can add and remove themselves from the distribution list by Subscribing and Unsubscribing. When you send a message to the list, it is first examined by the robot for key words that tell it to process an automatic funtion (like help, subscribe, unsubscribe, etc). If the message does not contain a keyword it is sent to the distribution list. How to Talk to the Robot There are a few List Processor commands that you might want to use. To send a command to the list processor, write a message to listproc@u.washington.edu (Do NOT send the message to classiccmp@u.washington.edu). In the body of the message (not the subject line, that is) write one of the following commands, then send the message. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL ACK Tells the robot to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. This is the default. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL NOACK Tells the robot NOT to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. I don't recommend this. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST Tells the robot to send you a digest of messages rather than each as it is posted. With this option you will get a weekly bundle of messages and keep a nice, tidy in-box. SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Subscribes you to the list. UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Removes you from the list. That's the basics. If you need to know more just drop me a line at bcw@u.washington.edu. Some requests may take a couple days as I just don't know that much about the list processor ;). From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Jun 19 15:02:12 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 In-Reply-To: Marvin's message of Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:34:14 -0700 References: <33A8D2E6.2DA2@rain.org> Message-ID: <199706192002.NAA06735@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Marvin writes: > It seems every time I turn around, I find something else I either > haven't seen in a while, or don't know anything about it. In this case, > I picked up a brand new Digilog 1500 some number of years ago. It is > not on the "Big List" so does anyone know anything about this? I seem I wonder if this is the same Digilog that made the Digilog 600 that is sitting in my office at work. It is not a general-purpose computer, but instead a serial line analyzer: one of those things that you plug in between two uncooperative serial communications devices to divine the nature of their uncooperativeness. It's also got a breakout box built in, and you can tell it's portable because it's got a handle (think Osborne 1 for some idea of its arm-lengthening properties, though). And a 3.5" stiffy drive for saving and replaying traces. I last used it in 1995, and have moved it along with me to different offices because no-one else wants it. It works well enough for what it is, but it doesn't understand IP, SLIP or PPP-in-HDLC at all. That is the sort of stuff we need to look at these days and we have better tools for doing that. -Frank McConnell From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 19 14:25:23 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: <199706191308.IAA21041@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Bill Girnius wrote: > You do need the system disks in order to make copies of disks. No you don't. You need any copy program, of which there were hundreds written for the Apple ][. Locksmith 5.0 and above had the fastest disk copier program, plus it could copy "copy-protected" disks. So could Copy ][ Plus. Those were the two most popular. COPYA, which is the disk copy program on the system disk, is a farce compared to these programs. Sure it does the job, but if you can find either Locksmith or Copy ][ Plus, that's the better choice, along with the other hundreds of disk copy programs put out (I wrote several myself). > > ---------- > > From: Sam Ismail > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Subject: Re: Apple ][e software? > > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 1997 8:50 PM > > > > On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > > > > > Greetings: > > > > > > I just picked up an Apple ][e, monitor, disk drives, the whole works... > > > even a mouse! But, I am wondering if someone out there might be able to > > > sell me a copy of the Disk Operating System disks and maybe one or two > > > (more?...) game disks? > > > > > > Please get in touch with me at the below address, e-mail, or phoen > number, > > > if you might have something like that which I could use to get the > system > > > going. > > > > Cord, forget about the system disks. You don't actually need them. The > > Apple was the kind of computer where you could use it with or without > > disks, although having software made it more useful. Each disk for the > > apple is self-contained and has whatever DOS it needs to run it. Your > > main concern right now is to get software for it, whatever that may be - > > games, utilities, productivity, etc. Find the apple users group near you > > > (if there is one) or go to comp.sys.apple where you will find a ton of > > information on how and where to obtain apple software. Its not hard to > > find, there were literally tens of thousands of titles published for the > > Apple ][. If you've never had an Apple before, you want to go out and > > start collecting ssome of the games released for it, as there are some > > fun titles. But as far as system disks, if you want to round out your > > collection, then I guess you would want an original copy just to say you > > have them, but every Apple I ever got was second-hand, and I already had > > software from the previous apple I was upgrading from, and having the > > original system disks was a moot point, as there were so many other more > > useful disks to have. > > > > Sam > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, > Jackass > > Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 15:15:54 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Collector Article References: Message-ID: <33A9937A.1FF9@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Here's an article Doug Coward forwarded to me. You guys will get a kick > out of it, especially the price list at the end. $200-$400 for an Apple > ][...yeah right. I have some property on the moon... > > > The Altair kit sold for $395 when it was new, but one in good > condition today can fetch as much as $1,500 because of the exalted > position it holds in computer history. Widely regarded as the first > mass-market personal computer, it launched a craze when it appeared on > the cover of the January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics. Bill Gates > even dropped out of Harvard to develop an early version of the Basic > programming language for the Altair. > I'm not sure but I suspect $1500 would be a VERY good buy. Someone that contacted me recently said that they had sold their Altair for $3000. Another story I heard (true?, I don't know) was that someone advertised their Altair on the net for $4000. This person was flamed for asking so much, and his only comeback was that it had already sold. There was a reference in TCJ by one of the editors(?) that they wouldn't be surprised by the price reaching $10,000. BTW and I think most of you can do this, if you really want to get a rise out of people, just tell them you have several million dollars worth of equipment at your home/storage area/whatever. After their "no way" or "where do you live" response, just tell them all they have to do is take the stuff back in time to when it was new and sell it to get the money! Sorry, I just have a perverted sense of humor :). From s-ware at nwu.edu Thu Jun 19 15:31:34 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Collector Article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Here's an article Doug Coward forwarded to me. You guys will get a kick > out of it, especially the price list at the end. $200-$400 for an Apple > ][...yeah right. I have some property on the moon... > This seems to be the article that kicked off the "$10,000 Osborne 1" thread on Usenet (a.f.c.? comp.os.cpm?) a few months ago. IIRC, the prices listed for Apple equipment in "A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators" are quite high, possibly since the book was published several years ago when there was a larger educational market for Apple II systems. Since this book was cited in the article, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the source of these prices. Of course, original Woz Integer BASIC Apple ][ systems aren't nearly as common as ][+ and //e systems. I'd imagine that there are quite a few people who would pay $200 for one, especially if it were posted for sale on AuctionWeb and described as "really rare and valuable". Then again, there are probably also quite a few people who would pay $200 for a //e if it were posted on AuctionWeb and described as "really rare and valuable". -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 19 16:22:07 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Collector Article In-Reply-To: <33A9937A.1FF9@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 19, 97 01:15:54 pm Message-ID: <9706192022.AA17042@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1145 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970619/f3e2e309/attachment-0001.ksh From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jun 19 15:31:04 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: A Report: "Why I Like Emulators" In-Reply-To: <199706191944.23082@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <3.0.1.32.19970619153819.00a77100@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619163104.009bd100@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: >> >I really don't see the interest in emulators if the real hardware still >> >exists. I'd much rather have the real thing..... >I think we're rather missing each other's points here. There's nothing at >all 'wrong' with using an emulator as an aid to writing software or >whatever to run on a classic computer. I know plenty of people who've used >the PDP11 emulator to do just that. And I used one of the PDP8 emulators >to try things on when I was rebuilding some bits of my 8/e. Ah. Now I see... your first comments on that were a bit vague and I didn't know that was the point you were trying to make. >But too many people (not on this list, thankfully :-)) seem to regard the >emualtor as a _replacement_ for preserving the hardware. This is what I >commenting on... Yes, for that, I do agree... emulators are an augmentation and a tool, not a replacement. >> Also, I plan on getting a CD-RW (that's re-writable!) within the next two >> weeks, and I plan on archiving all my software on CD-R... cain't do that on >> a CoCo! ;^> > >Give me one good reason why not? It should be _trivial_ to use a 5380 or >something like it to make a SCSI cartridge for the CoCo. Add an OS-9 >device driver and you should be able to burn CDs.... Reason? OK. 2 words: Buffer Underrun. If you can't keep the buffer of the CD-ROM recorder full, you now have an instant "5-inch Digital Dog Frisbee"(TM) and I don't think a CoCo (8-bit, 1.78Mhz) has enough bandwidth to keep the buffer full -- remember, the CoCo would have to pull the data from a hard drive to put on the CD-R at the same time, plus OS-9's overhead, etc. It would require a dedicated box with lotsa memory & a fast hard drive for the CoCo to send the data to, so the CD-R drive would have data fast enough to burn one... Uhhhh, can you say '486+? (or '040+ for you Mac aficionados) _Reading_ a CD-ROM would be trivial... personally, if there's such a thing as "impossible for a CoCo" burning a functional CD-R is the closest I've ever encountered. HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Thu Jun 19 15:38:13 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: A Report: "Why I Like Emulators" In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970619163104.009bd100@mail.northernway.net> References: <199706191944.23082@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> <3.0.1.32.19970619153819.00a77100@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619213813.00685a54@post.keme.co.uk> At 16:31 19/06/97 -0400, you wrote: >Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: > >>> >I really don't see the interest in emulators if the real hardware still >>> >exists. I'd much rather have the real thing..... > >>I think we're rather missing each other's points here. There's nothing at >>all 'wrong' with using an emulator as an aid to writing software or >>whatever to run on a classic computer. I know plenty of people who've used >>the PDP11 emulator to do just that. And I used one of the PDP8 emulators >>to try things on when I was rebuilding some bits of my 8/e. > >Ah. Now I see... your first comments on that were a bit vague and I didn't >know that was the point you were trying to make. > >>But too many people (not on this list, thankfully :-)) seem to regard the >>emualtor as a _replacement_ for preserving the hardware. This is what I >>commenting on... > >Yes, for that, I do agree... emulators are an augmentation and a tool, not >a replacement. > >>> Also, I plan on getting a CD-RW (that's re-writable!) within the next two >>> weeks, and I plan on archiving all my software on CD-R... cain't do that on >>> a CoCo! ;^> >> >>Give me one good reason why not? It should be _trivial_ to use a 5380 or >>something like it to make a SCSI cartridge for the CoCo. Add an OS-9 >>device driver and you should be able to burn CDs.... > >Reason? OK. 2 words: Buffer Underrun. If you can't keep the buffer of the >CD-ROM recorder full, you now have an instant "5-inch Digital Dog >Frisbee"(TM) and I don't think a CoCo (8-bit, 1.78Mhz) has enough bandwidth >to keep the buffer full -- remember, the CoCo would have to pull the data >from a hard drive to put on the CD-R at the same time, plus OS-9's >overhead, etc. > >It would require a dedicated box with lotsa memory & a fast hard drive for >the CoCo to send the data to, so the CD-R drive would have data fast enough >to burn one... Uhhhh, can you say '486+? (or '040+ for you Mac aficionados) > >_Reading_ a CD-ROM would be trivial... personally, if there's such a thing >as "impossible for a CoCo" burning a functional CD-R is the closest I've >ever encountered. > >HTH, >"Merch" >-- >Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, >Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should >zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. > >O love emulators so much, I have dedicated 1.4 gig to my bbs Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jun 19 15:39:59 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053C2FAD@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? | From: Marvin | Someone that | contacted me recently said that they had sold their Altair for $3000. Whom? | Another story I heard (true?, I don't know) was that someone advertised | their Altair on the net for $4000. This person was flamed for asking so | much, and his only comeback was that it had already sold. If this happened, it had to have been before 3/95, since there is no reference to it in DejaNews. | There was a | reference in TCJ by one of the editors(?) that they wouldn't be | surprised by the price reaching $10,000. I agree, though it's going to take a few years. People tend to acquire items that they wanted when they were in high school or college. Those people are now in their early forties, and that syndrome doesn't really get going full steam until 50-60 (my father, with 7 Corvettes, is a perfect example). I'd put the Altairs at $10K+ in 10 years. They sky's the limit in 20 years, maybe $100K (all in today's money of course). One reason for the expected price skyrocket is the number of people like me (and several others on this list) who acquire them and will never sell them, thus depleting the market. Kai From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 19 14:30:56 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > IIRC, it in fact does _not_ have a serial port! There was a serial card > available using the proprietary expansion bus. Good luck finding one of > those now. > > My memories are actually of the 1000HX, which I believe was basically the > same thing but with 3.5" drive instead of 5.25" (And maybe more RAM?) I recently picked up both a 1000EX and 1000HX from thrift shops. I'll take a look at both for the hell of it and report back what I find out about them. I have some add-on cards for each. Jeff Hellige also has a 1000HX. He might know something about them. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 19 14:37:34 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: <970619113433.20400f02@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Andy Brobston wrote: > I managed to get DOS 3.3 by finding a game or something that ran on > DOS 3.3, halting it with Control-C to get to the Applesoft BASIC > prompt, then using the file commands such as INIT to make a new disk. > I can't remember if DOS 3.3 has a built-in command that will copy a > disk... There's probably a way to do it. No, there wasn't a disk copy command, but if you knew machine language and the RWTS (Read/Write Track Subroutines) of DOS 3.3 you could hack one up in a few minutes. Otherwise, the easier and saner way was to just pop in a disk with a disk copy program and BRUN it. DOS 3.3 was very cool, because it was so accesible and so easy to hack. I used to make my own extensions for it, adding subdirectories and other features to DOS 3.3 that only ProDOS had. ProDOS I thought was lame, because it required more work to do stuff with. It ate up more disk and memory resources, its boot process was longer, and its directory heirarhcy sucked because you could move back a directory without having to type in the full path. (IE. going from /disk/dir1/dir2/dir3 to /disk/dir1/dir2 required you to type PREFIX /disk/dir1/dir2...it got annoying with real deep directories). But it was a definite improvement over DOS as far as interfacing to it from machine language. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From scott at saskatoon.com Thu Jun 19 15:57:18 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Altairs In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053C2FAD@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got >3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? I've got the 680, but you already knew that. ttfn srw From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 16:13:07 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Collector Article References: <9706192022.AA17042@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33A9A0E3.51E3@rain.org> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > I'm not sure but I suspect $1500 would be a VERY good buy. Someone that > > contacted me recently said that they had sold their Altair for $3000. > > Another story I heard (true?, I don't know) was that someone advertised > > Herb Johnson and I have been asking around comp.os.cpm (where any real > Altair user would hang out) and we've come to the conclusion that > these multi-thousand-dollar sale prices are entirely artificial and made up. > Those prices may be artificial, I have no way of knowing since I am not selling mine. As far as an Altair owner hanging out on comp.os.cpm, that may be. However, I do know that I made a few posts there about older computers, collecting, etc. and got zero response. The group here seems pretty knowledgeable about a lot of areas and thus I prefer this group. I read the comp.os.cpm a couple of times a week since there is some good info there, just mostly not about the hardware side of things which is where my interest lies. From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 16:14:12 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053C2FAD@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33A9A124.C11@rain.org> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > I have three. From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 16:16:55 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 References: <33A8D2E6.2DA2@rain.org> <199706192002.NAA06735@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <33A9A1C7.23E2@rain.org> Frank McConnell wrote: > > Marvin writes: > > It seems every time I turn around, I find something else I either > > haven't seen in a while, or don't know anything about it. In this case, > > I picked up a brand new Digilog 1500 some number of years ago. It is > > not on the "Big List" so does anyone know anything about this? I seem > > I wonder if this is the same Digilog that made the Digilog 600 that is > sitting in my office at work. It is not a general-purpose computer, > but instead a serial line analyzer: one of those things that you plug > in between two uncooperative serial communications devices to divine > the nature of their uncooperativeness. It's also got a breakout box > built in, and you can tell it's portable because it's got a handle > (think Osborne 1 for some idea of its arm-lengthening properties, > though). And a 3.5" stiffy drive for saving and replaying traces. > This one doesn't have handles and looks more like the TRS Model IV desktop and like computers. I didn't take a close look last night, but it has at least one full height drive and no 3 1/2" drives that I could see. Since it is new, I *really* wish the docs had come with it! From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jun 19 16:39:34 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053C2FAD@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > > Kai Well... if you are referring to me, I have 5. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 19 18:47:02 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Collector Article In-Reply-To: <33A9A0E3.51E3@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 19, 97 02:13:07 pm Message-ID: <9706192247.AA31377@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 494 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970619/c9f4867e/attachment-0001.ksh From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jun 19 09:10:50 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 19-Jun-97, Scott Walde wrote: >My memories are actually of the 1000HX, which I believe was basically the >same thing but with 3.5" drive instead of 5.25" (And maybe more RAM?) The EX and HX had basically the same innards, though as you mentioned, the HX had two 3-1/2" drive bays above the keyboard, the left one filled with a 720k floppy from the factory. The HX had the same expansion bus as well, and used the same 'PLUS' style cards. It came stock out of the box with only 256k RAM and no DMA capability. The DMA wasn't added until you added the PLUS Memory expansion, which also added a connector for two more PLUS cards. The interesting thing about the HX was that it contained the bare essentials of MS-DOS 2.11 in ROM, which acted as drive C:, or you could also boot straight to Deskmate as well. I've got the Tech Ref manual here for it still, along with the ones for the Model 2000 and Model 4/4P. The HX was the first PC I bought, and it eventually had the PLUS style memory card, serial card, and 1200 bps modem, as well as an external 5-1/4" floppy. I used this system for calling all the local BBS's, and even did all the work in configuring and testing my own BBS on it. I was able to keep the setup of QuickBBS I had small enough to run off just the two floppy drives! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jun 19 09:16:04 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <199706191612.11027@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 19-Jun-97, A.R. Duell wrote: >IIRC, that expansion bus was pin-pin compatible with a stadard 8-bit ISA >connector. It should be possible to kludge up an adapter cable (keep it as >short as possible) to use a normal PC serial card in the EX. Actually, it should be, as I recall a couple companies doing just that so that they could mount small hard disk controllers in the EX/HX expansion area, though the problem then is getting the card to fit. There was even one vendor, called Howard Medical, I believe, that managed to squeeze a hard disk into the 2nd floppy bay. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jun 19 09:21:35 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Good Emulators & floppies (was: C64 CP/M carts (was:...)) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970619112956.4acffe6a@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On 19-Jun-97, Uncle Roger wrote: >So floppies formatted on the atari worked fine on the atari, but if you >wanted to use the floppy on both machines, you needed to format it on the PC >(or use a third party formatter that fixed the problem.) Some later version >of TOS (1.4?) fixed this. Yes, it was 1.4, otherwise called 'Rainbow TOS' in the info pop-up, I believe. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------- O- >Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad >sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." >Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates >San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jun 19 09:27:16 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 19-Jun-97, Sam Ismail wrote: >I recently picked up both a 1000EX and 1000HX from thrift shops. I'll >take a look at both for the hell of it and report back what I find out >about them. I have some add-on cards for each. Jeff Hellige also has a >1000HX. He might know something about them. Actually Sam, I HAD a 1000HX! I still think it's a nifty machine though, and left what info I could concerning the thread. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jun 19 09:52:44 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Atari XDM121 printer help Message-ID: I just recieved an Atari XDM121 printer, and it appears to work fine, though is in need of a new ribbon. It is a daisy wheel printer, 80 column, and is set up to connect to the Atari 8bit I/O bus. It appears to have been produced in the mid to late 80's since the style of the case and buttons on the front are the same as those of the Atari ST line of computers, and not the earlier 8bit machines (ie. the case is grey and the 3 buttons on the front panel have diagonal vertical lines). My question is about a third connector on the back (the other two being the 8bit I/O bus connectors). This third connector is a modular connector, similar to a RJ-11 phone jack, and it has just two contacts in it. Any ideas on what this might be for? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jun 19 19:32:07 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, James Willing wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? Well, if you guys went to the Classic Computer Encyclopedia and found the machine under discussion and clicked on "Add mine" the appropriate number of times - we would know how many are with us still. BC From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jun 19 19:59:24 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <199706191852.21343@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > I like my real PDP better than the emulated one. The real one has one > > feature that E11, and Supnik 2.2, and all the rest can NEVER have that > > annoys my family to no end - THE EAR-SPLITTING NOISE! :) It drives them > > Nuts, and I can't get enough of it! There's nothing like powering up the > > 11/23 and hearing that "Bwaaaaa!" as it all spins up - then it becomes a First - glad you could make it Dan! > Hmmm... Try an 11/45 + 2 expansion boxes + 8 demountable drives + PERQ1 as > a terminal for an ear-splitting noise. There must be at least 30 fans in > that system, probably more :-) > > And then there's the waste heat. A few years ago we had a 'heat wave'. The > temperatures were well above the maximum specified in the DEC manuals. The > 11/45 carried on running as if nothing was wrong, but alas I didn't.... Second - I love the noise! It sounds like a jet engine warming up - only it takes longer 8-) Also - What waste heat???? I run my 11/23 to keep the basement warm and toasty. And now with my second, I can probably do away with the furnace this winter 8-) And they are underrated for the temperature spec - but wait until one goes - It's sad see 8-( as most of the chips seem to go all at once. BC From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jun 19 19:35:49 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: NEC PC 8201A Accessory? In-Reply-To: References: <33A777E6.425A@rain.org> Message-ID: <11AD591B3F2E@ifrsys.com> Marvin: What you have there is a break-out box for AMPS cellular telephones. You put the box between the phones handset and tranceiver unit, and you can tap into the audio circuits of the phone. In the early days of cellular radio, any phone that was listed as "AMPS complete" could be used with the handset of any other phone likewise listed. This was done to give third-party equipment supliers the opportunity to make custom accessories that would work with a variety of phones. The 1985 seems to confirm that this was used for testing these "AMPS complete" cellular phones (they were about all that was available then). The computer probly had some test software on it, to send commands to the tranceiver. BTW, interfaces like this were also used with cellphones as system diagnostic tools for cellular networks, to analyze coverage areas and call quality. The amps complete phone is almost non-existent today. Most (if not all) now use a proprietary communication scheme between the handset and tranceiver. Most phones for sale today, as you know, don't even have this connection; the tranceiver and handset are all one unit. The true "AMPS Complete" phone is a bit of a classic in of itself! Jeff P.S. = Mod = Modulator RSSI = Receiver Signal Strength Indicator NRZ = Non-return to Zero data used by the phone for control. Bit Clock = Recovered clock for the above datastream > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 01:54:17 -0500 (CDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Brett > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: NEC PC 8201A Accessory? > X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > I have another strange device. This one is called a Channel Tester, > > Ser. No. 55263, and a date of 1985-4. It has a series of BNC connectors > > on the face labeled "Tx Audio", "RX Audio", "Spk", "Voice Tx Test", > > "Voice Rx Test", "Mod", "Disc", "RSSI", "NRZ Data", and "Bit CLock". I > > got it attached to an NEC PC 8201A (as I recall) TRS-80 Model 100 > > clone. It also has a male and female Centronix interface plugs on the > > side away from where it attaches to the 8201A. Does anyone have any > > idea what this thing is? Thanks! > > Are they 50 pin Centronics? If they are, it could be a telephone tester. > The Centronics port (at 50 pins) would take a "whip" and let you test > all the lines on a PBX or straight telephone cable. > > If they are 36 pin Centronics I really don't know what used NRZ encoding > in the early 80's except tape drives - or maybe its a tester for a radio > land line from studio to tramsmitter - it does have the Mod-ulation BNC > connection. > > Other than that - I'm stumped 8-) Who made it - NEC? > > BC > > From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 20:56:24 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: NEC PC 8201A Accessory? References: <33A777E6.425A@rain.org> <11AD591B3F2E@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <33A9E348.27AE@rain.org> Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > Marvin: > > What you have there is a break-out box for AMPS cellular telephones. > You put the box between the phones handset and tranceiver unit, > and you can tap into the audio circuits of the phone. > Thanks MUCH for the information! I have seen that box a number of times and was really curious what it was. When I got the NEC 8201A, there was no software or docs with it. It has been so long ago that I can't even remember where the unit came from. At least I know what it is now! From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 19 21:04:20 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Collector Article References: <9706192247.AA31377@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33A9E524.50CC@rain.org> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > selling mine. As far as an Altair owner hanging out on comp.os.cpm, > > that may be. However, I do know that I made a few posts there about > > older computers, collecting, etc. and got zero response. > > What questions did you ask? From what e-mail address did you > post from? > > Usenet isn't perfect, but there's a lot of information and help > available there just for the asking. And comp.os.cpm is one > of the better newsgroups around for decent technical discussions. > I don't remember, but one question related to whether or not that was the proper group for hardware discussions. BTW, I know it is a good newsgroup, it is just that almost everything I saw (and still see) relates to software with relatively little discussion on the hardware per se. From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 19 21:43:35 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: This mlist is ACTIVE! Message-ID: <33adee06.1106950@smtp.ix.netcom.com> I just subscribed to this mailing list yesterday and am amazed at the traffic. Just today, I seem to have received more than 80 messages! Ben From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Jun 19 21:53:12 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: <33A9A124.C11@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > > > > I have three. > I have none. :( Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From jpw at netwizards.net Thu Jun 19 22:44:47 1997 From: jpw at netwizards.net (John P. Wittkoski) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: TRS-80, etc. Message-ID: >2) 80-Micro, TRS-80 Microcomputing News, Computer News 80, and 80-US >Journal magazines, etc. I think we have every issue of 80-Micro from Issue 1 to sometime in 1989(?) when it became 100% PC based and we let the subscription lapse. We even still have the 1982 (or was it 1983?) special 500+ page Christmas special. I can see if we are willing to part with it if you are interested. Later, --John From tedbird at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 19 22:55:22 1997 From: tedbird at ix.netcom.com (tedbird) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Altairs References: Message-ID: <33A9FF2A.3FFC@ix.netcom.com> Scott Walde wrote: > > On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > >I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > >3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > > I've got the 680, but you already knew that. > > ttfn > srw I've got 3. From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 19 21:19:06 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: <33A9A124.C11@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > > > > I have three. Share the wealth! Each of you send me one! :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 19 23:32:21 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > > > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > > I have three. > I have none. :( Yah. Same number I've got. (well, in all honesty I didn't buy my first system until the TRS-80 appeared -- I'd been doing hardware electronics all through my time in the USAF and I'd gotten tired of burning myself soldering -- the phrase "assembled and tested" was as music to my ears at the time -- and if I'd bought the kits and left them virgin [fat chance] they'd have been lost over the years anyway -- as Franklin said, "Three removes equals one fire" so figure the percentage after twelve changes of residence since 1978). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 19 23:43:44 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > > > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > > I have three. > Share the wealth! Each of you send me one! :) I'm not as greedy as Sam. _One_ of you send me one. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 19 21:31:41 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > My internal floppy seems to be hosed. I can't boot any disks off of it. > > Some bgin to boot but then go to error, others invoke this horrendous > > recalibration that never ends. I assume the drive head is dirty and the > > speed needs calibrating. I wonder if I can calibrate this drive like one > > can the Disk ][? > > Bummer. Is it not possible to use a Disk ]['s drive mechanism with the > ///? Internally or externally? Obviously trying to do so internally > would bring form factor problems, but I'm wondering if it could be done > anyway. I would guess that the controller is compatible with Disk ][ drives, although it would not surprised me if Apple purposely changed the pinouts or used a different connector to thwart anyone attempting to use a ][ drive with the ///. > Thankfully my internal drive works, but I wouldn't mind hooking up a > second drive to it... and the chances of finding a Disk /// lying around > are practically nil. I don't think they made such a beast...did they? > > Doug, if you want I can e-mail NuFX (ShrinkIt) images to you. This would > > be the quickest way for you to get them. You'd need an Apple // running > > shrinkit of course. The disk format between the // and /// is identical. > > That would be great, thanks! I've never used ShrinkIt, but I can at least > get stuff to and from my //e, and I've got two Disk ][s and a 512K RAM > card in it. I'll get ShrinkIt via FTP. ShrinkIt is easy to use. You'll do fine. I'll try to e-mail the images to you in uuencoded format sometime within the next few days (I am busy). > I don't suppose the /// disks are available at some anonymous FTP site > already? It'd be especially cool in .dsk format, as that's how I transfer > all of my ][ software. (I never had a decent terminal program for my > Micromodem IIe, so I wrote a whole disk transfer program and extract > individual files when I have to once the disk image is on my Amiga.) I doubt it. It would be a good thing to do though. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Thu Jun 19 22:19:32 1997 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: References: <33A9A124.C11@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970620131932.009abe90@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 10:53 PM 6/19/97 -0400, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: >On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > >> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >> > >> > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got >> > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? >> > >> >> I have three. >> > >I have none. :( Me too :-( OK, so I've always wanted to post a "Me too" response, and I've finally done it :-) Are there any other Australians on the list, and if so, any pointers to getting an Altair down under? In addition, I'm looking for an Epson PX-8 (aka Geneva). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfas keep me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From kyrrin at wizards.net Fri Jun 20 00:13:17 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: 1 GB SMD Disk drives Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619221317.00f78148@mail.wizards.net> Those of you who own systems that use SMD drives, take note! RE-PC, Seattle, WA, has turned up a quantity (6 or 7) of Seagate 'Elite' series SMD disk drives. These are small ones (physically speaking), in the form of 5.25" full-height. They're brand new, still in their original boxes, and appear to be unused. I know these will go cheap, since SMD is useless to the PC world (thank God!). If these are of interest to you, either drop by RE-PC (if you're in the Seattle or nearby areas -- 1565 6th Ave. S, near the Kingdome), or give them a call at (206) 623-9151. Ask for Steve Hess or Mark Dabek, ask specifically about the Seagate SMD drives, tell them I sent you, and make them a decent offer. Enjoy! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 20 01:01:35 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970619230147.53bf8d7c@ricochet.net> At 07:36 PM 6/19/97 BST, you wrote: >Oh, come on, an ST is _tiny_ compared to the sort of machines I run. I'd >have no problem fitting another one into my 'machine room'. Now, if >somebody offered me a PDP12, I'd start having problems.. There's a reason I'm concentrating on portable computers... 8^) But seriously, I know a lot of people who have small studio apartments, where they *truly* have room for only one computer. >Why is the PSU a problem? I guess it's easier over here, where we have Just that it takes up room... Sometimes every little bit counts! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 20 01:01:37 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:28 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970619230149.53bf6e62@ricochet.net> At 07:49 PM 6/19/97 BST, you wrote: >> I thought the idea of variable speed drives was to have the same >> number/sized sectors on each track? Perhaps I goofed there too... > >Let's go through this logically. Doh! It makes perfect sense the way you explain it. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 20 01:01:50 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Collector Article Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970619230202.53bf68a4@ricochet.net> At 03:31 PM 6/19/97 -0500, you wrote: >prices listed for Apple equipment in "A Collector's Guide to Personal >Computers and Pocket Calculators" are quite high, possibly since the book Apple II+ is quoted as $100-$200, the IIe $125-250. The Disk II is listed as $75-150. Haddock's book is way high on some things, (seems) way low on others, and, occassionally, is right on the money. Nonetheless, it *is* interesting, has some nice pictures, and is probably a good reference to have. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 20 01:21:40 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970619232140.00fbac0c@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:31 PM 6/19/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > >> > My internal floppy seems to be hosed. I can't boot any disks off of it. >> > Some bgin to boot but then go to error, others invoke this horrendous >> > recalibration that never ends. I assume the drive head is dirty and the >> > speed needs calibrating. I wonder if I can calibrate this drive like one >> > can the Disk ][? Hmmm... if I recall correctly (its been a while), the drives will act quite obstinate if the speed if off more than a bit. Most of the Apple drive mechs (at least as I recall) had strobe disks on the flywheel pulley that you can use to get the speed fairly close. Also, the positioner mechanism on the Apple drives was quite sensitive to the head carriage drive rails getting dirty and binding. You should check to make sure that the carriage is free to travel across the full extent of the guide rails easily. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 20 02:36:33 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Collector Article In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970619230202.53bf68a4@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 03:31 PM 6/19/97 -0500, you wrote: > >prices listed for Apple equipment in "A Collector's Guide to Personal > >Computers and Pocket Calculators" are quite high, possibly since the book > > Apple II+ is quoted as $100-$200, the IIe $125-250. The Disk II is listed > as $75-150. Haddock's book is way high on some things, (seems) way low on > others, and, occassionally, is right on the money. Nonetheless, it *is* > interesting, has some nice pictures, and is probably a good reference to have. Gee, then I have an Apple bonanza worth $2000 in my garage. Whatever. This is what I am dreading of this hobby, that assholes like this Haddock guy start trying to price things out. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From mojaveg at ridgecrest.ca.us Fri Jun 20 05:27:12 1997 From: mojaveg at ridgecrest.ca.us (mojaveg@ridgecrest.ca.us) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: This mlist is ACTIVE! In-Reply-To: <33adee06.1106950@smtp.ix.netcom.com> (from bluesky6@ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong)) Message-ID: <249dab7c.c3513-mojaveg@annex033.ridgecrest.ca.us> Hi Benedict, > I just subscribed to this mailing list yesterday and am amazed at the > traffic. Just today, I seem to have received more than 80 messages! Which is why I'm dropping it. From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Jun 20 05:49:41 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) Message-ID: <199706201046.FAA16083@challenge.sunflower.com> Yes they made and External Disk ///, a joystick /// as well, I have both :) ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) > Date: Thursday, June 19, 1997 9:31 PM > > On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > > > My internal floppy seems to be hosed. I can't boot any disks off of it. > > > Some bgin to boot but then go to error, others invoke this horrendous > > > recalibration that never ends. I assume the drive head is dirty and the > > > speed needs calibrating. I wonder if I can calibrate this drive like one > > > can the Disk ][? > > > > Bummer. Is it not possible to use a Disk ]['s drive mechanism with the > > ///? Internally or externally? Obviously trying to do so internally > > would bring form factor problems, but I'm wondering if it could be done > > anyway. > > I would guess that the controller is compatible with Disk ][ drives, > although it would not surprised me if Apple purposely changed the pinouts > or used a different connector to thwart anyone attempting to use a ][ > drive with the ///. > > > Thankfully my internal drive works, but I wouldn't mind hooking up a > > second drive to it... and the chances of finding a Disk /// lying around > > are practically nil. > > I don't think they made such a beast...did they? > > > > Doug, if you want I can e-mail NuFX (ShrinkIt) images to you. This would > > > be the quickest way for you to get them. You'd need an Apple // running > > > shrinkit of course. The disk format between the // and /// is identical. > > > > That would be great, thanks! I've never used ShrinkIt, but I can at least > > get stuff to and from my //e, and I've got two Disk ][s and a 512K RAM > > card in it. I'll get ShrinkIt via FTP. > > ShrinkIt is easy to use. You'll do fine. I'll try to e-mail the images > to you in uuencoded format sometime within the next few days (I am busy). > > > I don't suppose the /// disks are available at some anonymous FTP site > > already? It'd be especially cool in .dsk format, as that's how I transfer > > all of my ][ software. (I never had a decent terminal program for my > > Micromodem IIe, so I wrote a whole disk transfer program and extract > > individual files when I have to once the disk image is on my Amiga.) > > I doubt it. It would be a good thing to do though. > > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Jun 20 06:01:35 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Apple /// booting and Franklin question Message-ID: <199706201058.FAA16591@challenge.sunflower.com> You need a disk to boot, called "Catalyst" so you still boot from floppy, but the disk initialized the Profile and that's what comes up. I have a working profile, and its missing some of the directories on the menu, anyone know how to edit the menu and stuff? For merely a pre-paid envelop and a disk mailed to me, i'd be wiling to copie the catalyst disk for you. ---------- > From: Kai Kaltenbach > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Apple /// booting and Franklin question > Date: Tuesday, June 17, 1997 6:35 PM > > I think I saw this go by once before on the group, but - > > - How do you get an Apple /// to boot from the ProFile? > > Also: > > - Does anyone consider the Franklin Ace 1000 Apple II clone very > collectible? > > thanks > > Kai From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Thu Jun 19 14:28:55 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 production count References: <9706191628.AA04295@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33A98877.258B@ndirect.co.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > The IMSAI is in perfect working condition, except for four broken > > plastic switches. By the way, can anyone tell me the address of the > > place that sells the switches? > > Any full-line C&K distributor should be able to order the switches > for you. The part numbers are 7101-J4-Z-Q-E for the data and > address switches, and 7105-J4-Z-Q-E for the momentary-off-momentary > switches. You have to specify which color you want, too: otherwise > you'll get black! > > Onesies-twosies prices for these will run US$7 or $8 each through a > distributor. Obviously, there are some serious quantity breaks > available... :-) > > C&K will also gladly sell you just the plastic keytops. The important > thing to remember when doing this is that the handle style is "J4". > > NKK sells a line of switches almost identical to C&K's, but the > switch handle colors are subtly different. (I can't tell the > difference unless I've got them side-by-side.) > > Tim Shoppa, TRIUMF theory group | Internet: shoppa@triumf.ca > TRIUMF, Canada's National Meson Facility | Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 6446 > 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS | FAX: 604-222-1074 > University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA V6T 2A3 For the benefit of us poor overseas partecipants.....who are C&K ??? Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Fri Jun 20 06:07:14 1997 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) Message-ID: <199706201134.EAA10482@mx2.u.washington.edu> Huw Davies wrote: ---------- > From: Huw Davies > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) > Date: Friday, June 20, 1997 1:19 PM snip > > Are there any other Australians on the list, and if so, any pointers to > getting an Altair down under? In addition, I'm looking for an Epson PX-8 > (aka Geneva). > I'm in Australia (Sydney), been collecting for about 3 years and have never seen or indeed even heard of an Altair existing in Australia. To get one?, obviously offer $10,000 on this list and import it from the USA. Hans From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 20 06:53:27 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <199706191155.3182@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > Uh, I beg to differ about the Victor 9000 being the first computer to use > > variable speed disk drives, as my CBM 2040 dual drive unit from 1979 does > > this. > > No it doesn't (or at least the 8050 doesn't, and nor does the 1541 - I > have service manuals for both of them) > > The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data > clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more > sectors on said tracks. Interesting. I had read that those drives were variable speed, but from a much less reliable source than service manuals. Thanks for the clarification! > I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data > clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle > up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time). Yup, you're right. > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Fri Jun 20 07:29:00 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053C2FAD@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <33A9A124.C11@rain.org> Message-ID: <33AA778C.45B1@ndirect.co.uk> Marvin wrote: > > Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > > > > I have three. I haven't got any but I would like one... -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 20 07:18:31 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970619103340.009ecd20@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: > [snip] > > >The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data > >clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more > >sectors on said tracks. > > > >I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data > >clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle > >up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time). > >-tony > >ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > > Righto, Tony! There are programs that you can get for IBM PC's that do this > and you can store 1.8Megs on a 1.44Meg drive! > > (Didn't the Apple and Amiga do this with there 800K and 880K drives, > respectively?) Not the Amiga, it uses a constant rotation speed and data rate. The Amiga gets the "extra" space on the disk by simply not using sector headers. When a sector is needed, the entire track it lives on is read into a buffer, and when a modification is made the entire track is written back out. The lack of sector headers allows the Amiga to write 11 sectors per track, instead of 9 as with the PC. (In practice, though, I can safely get 12 sectors per track, and I understand it's possible to go higher.) > See Ya, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should > zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 20 07:49:56 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Crap, I really should try harder to keep up in here! On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Everyone, hurry and respond so we can stick a fork in this. 3 people > besides myself and Marvin have already expressed interest. That means > there are about 9 left. If there is still one unspoken for, count me in! I'd rather have a KIM-1, but I wouldn't complain if I got "stuck" with an AIM-65. :) > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 20 08:31:31 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Good Emulators & floppies (was: C64 CP/M carts (was:...)) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970619102950.009db5c0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Doug Spence said: > > >Please stop assuming I've joined the Evil Empire. My only PC compatibles > >are my A1060 Sidecar on my Amiga 1000, which no longer has a 5.25" floppy > >drive as I put a hard drive in its bay, and a Tandy 1000EX, which has no > >way of communicating with anything else that I own because ALL it has is > >a 360K floppy drive. > > "Evil Empire?" == Use the Farce, Duke! == First, if you have an Atari ST, > (and I think TOS 1.4 or above... getting my ST next weekend! Wheeeee! ;-) > it can read/write/format PC floppies. I don't have an ST (yet) but my Amigas (Amigae? :) ) handle PC double- density floppies very well (I've even been able to read MS-DOS formatted Zip disks). Now if only I could find an A1020 5.25" floppy drive for them... > Second, if the EX's drive controller can handle double-sided drives, > replace the SSDD drive with a DSDD one and get 720K storage, and the > capability to read other 720K floppies... That would be cool, and might actually make the EX useful. :) (Though not for reading CP/M disks with 22DISK.) There's something oddly enticing about a PC-clone with 256K and CGA, in a console-style case. (I'm actually quite fond of the EX, even if neglect it most of the time.) > BTW, you mentioned in the original post that you own a 1541 C= drive... > would you like to hook that up to the EX? There's a way to run that drive > thru the serial port, takes a 1 or 2 chip converter board, and I've seen > the dox on this... but I'm not a Commie fan (sorry... had to say that ;^) > but ISTR that the circuit is very similar to the one used to hook up the > Atari 8-bit series drives (810 / 1050 / Indus, etc.) to an IBM as well. Actually, the project I've been wanting to build (and I really should do it now that I have some free time) is the one to connect the 1541 to the Amiga's parallel port. But there's a device that plugs into the (non-classic) A1200's IDE connector that allows use of the 1541, as well as standard PC high density 3.5" drive mechs. I'm considering killing two birds with one stone with that device... but it's so rare that I actually buy NEW hardware . ;) Oh, and the EX doesn't _have_ a serial port. It uses PCB edge connectors anyway, on the ports it does have. I'd need the pinouts for the EX's ports before I'd play with it in that way. > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should > zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 20 08:49:39 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Apple ][e software? In-Reply-To: <970619114055.20400f02@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Andy Brobston wrote: > >It's not built-in, but the DOS 3.3 distributions have the Intbasic > >program COPY which will do what you want. If you've got one of > >these crippled II+'s or later that only have Applesoft, you can > >still use COPYA. > > I'm wondering if there's a way to hack code to get it to copy without > any System Master programs. I don't remember. I know the easy way out > would be just to get the System Master, but now I'm just curious. :) If you have the Apple ][ DOS manual, look up the RWTS subroutine. You can poke the table in from BASIC (I suggest you locate it at location 768 ($300 hex)) and write a BASIC program that uses it to copy disks quite easily (I have done so). > -- > Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** > http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html > My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College > as a whole. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Fri Jun 20 05:11:43 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: References: <199706191155.3182@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199706201411.KAA02599@mail.cgocable.net> > On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > Uh, I beg to differ about the Victor 9000 being the first computer to use > > > variable speed disk drives, as my CBM 2040 dual drive unit from 1979 does > > > this. > > > > No it doesn't (or at least the 8050 doesn't, and nor does the 1541 - I > > have service manuals for both of them) > > > > The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data > > clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more > > sectors on said tracks. > > Interesting. I had read that those drives were variable speed, but from a > much less reliable source than service manuals. Thanks for the > clarification! > > > I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data > > clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle > > up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time). > > Yup, you're right. > That true regeading the mass of the flywheel motor on floppy drives is pretty heavy. Hey, what about the Mac that did still use 4 speed disk drive, you can hear the differences in speeds made clearly by formatting a disk. Jason D. > > -- > > -tony > > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill > > Doug Spence > ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > > > From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Fri Jun 20 05:11:43 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Victor 9000 In-Reply-To: References: <199706191155.3182@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199706201411.KAA02603@mail.cgocable.net> > > On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > Uh, I beg to differ about the Victor 9000 being the first computer to use > > > variable speed disk drives, as my CBM 2040 dual drive unit from 1979 does > > > this. > > > > No it doesn't (or at least the 8050 doesn't, and nor does the 1541 - I > > have service manuals for both of them) > > > > The disk turns at a constant speed. What changes is the speed of the data > > clock. The bits are sent faster for the outside tracks, so it can fit more > > sectors on said tracks. > > Interesting. I had read that those drives were variable speed, but from a > much less reliable source than service manuals. Thanks for the > clarification! > > > I never really saw the point of variable-speed drives. Changing the data > > clock is a lot easier, and probably faster (getting the spindle > > up-to-speed and locked at that speed takes considerable time). > > Yup, you're right. That's true regeading the mass of the flywheel is massive. But the Mac does uses 4 speed made clearly by rate of spin rate and ticks of head especially clearly heard during the formatting session. > > -- > > -tony > > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill > > Doug Spence > ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > > Jason D. From FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com Fri Jun 20 09:11:00 1997 From: FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com (Faiaz, Michael C. HSD) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Collector Article Message-ID: Does anyone know where I can find equipment accessories for the PC8500 (NEC) laptop? Thanks! Mike ---------- From: Sam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Collector Article Date: Friday, June 20, 1997 3:36AM On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 03:31 PM 6/19/97 -0500, you wrote: > >prices listed for Apple equipment in "A Collector's Guide to Personal > >Computers and Pocket Calculators" are quite high, possibly since the book > > Apple II+ is quoted as $100-$200, the IIe $125-250. The Disk II is listed > as $75-150. Haddock's book is way high on some things, (seems) way low on > others, and, occassionally, is right on the money. Nonetheless, it *is* > interesting, has some nice pictures, and is probably a good reference to have. Gee, then I have an Apple bonanza worth $2000 in my garage. Whatever. This is what I am dreading of this hobby, that assholes like this Haddock guy start trying to price things out. Sam ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- ---- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Jun 20 09:26:29 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > > > 3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else? > > I have three. > Share the wealth! Each of you send me one! :) Does anyone still have the PLANS for one? From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Fri Jun 20 10:11:08 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: FS on eBay: Apple, Atari, Commodore Message-ID: <33AA9D8C.740D@oboe.calpoly.edu> I listed a few systems on the auction at eBay this week. Still trying to clean up around here. If interested, please go to the link below for more info or email me with questions. Thanks, Greg Here they are: Pair Apple IIc, IIe Handcontrollers (photo) Current bid: $1.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 12:40:28 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=sfx4367 Commodore 128D System Bidding starts at: $3.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 21:12:47 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=qrk459038 Commodore 64 - White Bidding starts at: $3.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 21:16:04 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=wbj37502 Apple IIC System with External Floppy Bidding starts at: $3.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 21:22:31 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=hxz389 Atari 520ST Computer, Floppy, Mouse, etc Bidding starts at: $3.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 21:26:58 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=czo512 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 20 10:03:45 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Does anyone still have the PLANS for one? Define "plans". I have full sets of the schematics for the units in my collection (as I suspect many do), but if you are talking about the mechanical drawings for things like the case, boards, etc., I am not aware of those ever being made available. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 20 10:07:09 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) Message-ID: <199706201507.AA21042@world.std.com> > Does anyone still have the PLANS for one? Yes but I'd build an imsai! The altair was first but not that nice technically. Also the case, front pannel and many componenets would have to be fabricated. I happen to have a spare case and power transformer. I'd love to get an imsai or 8800b box so I could fully retire(not sell) the altair I have. Allison From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Jun 20 10:14:07 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: <199706201507.AA21042@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > Does anyone still have the PLANS for one? > > Yes but I'd build an imsai! Doesn't really matter which. I just thought it would a neat idea to get plans or something an make one (Just for the hey of it). From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 20 11:32:59 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jun 20, 97 10:14:07 am Message-ID: <9706201532.AA32071@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1150 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970620/8e3d0cd6/attachment-0001.ksh From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Fri Jun 20 10:45:07 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Vector 3-5030 Message-ID: <33AAA583.4C08@xlisper.mv.com> Does anyone know anything about the Vector 3-5030 from Vector Graphics? Is it considered a collectable? I recently found one at the town dump and brought it home. It displays some sort of ROM monitor screen when it comes up with version number 4.2. It has a dual floppy drive but no software. I assume it is a CP/M machine since one of the boards in the S-100 card cage has a Z80 on it. -- David Betz DavidBetz@aol.com dbetz@xlisper.mv.com (603) 472-2389 From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Jun 20 10:46:01 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) In-Reply-To: <9706201532.AA32071@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Building an IMSAI (or a TIMSAI, for that matter) is straightforward, > but not something you do just on the spur of the moment. There's > many days of work in laying out the PC boards (it would certainly > have helped if I had a PC-board-specific CAD system when I was laying > out the front panel and motherboard of the TIMSAI!) and a substantial > amount of sheet metal work in cutting, punching, and bending > the chassis parts and the cover. I wouldn't have even considered > the project had I not had access to professional PC-board etching > facilities and a fully equipped sheet metal shop. I know - this will be something I do in Electronics class next year. While everyone else makes an oscillator or something stupid, I'll build an Imsai! From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jun 20 11:47:42 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053FDA7F@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | Does anyone still have the PLANS for one? If you mean schematics, yes. The Altair was built from a kit, not plans. You may be thinking of the Scelbi Mark 8, which was built from plans. Kai From ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu Fri Jun 20 12:42:37 1997 From: ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu (Yujin Nagasawa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: FS: BOOK The History of Computers Message-ID: <199706201738.NAA23361@abel.ic.sunysb.edu> For Sale: The History of Computers -A Family Alubum of Computer Genealogy- by Les Freed ZD press ISBN 1-56276-275-3 all color and lots of pictures and illustrations $12 (shipping included within the United States, original price is $24.95) From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jun 20 13:00:10 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Who was in Australia? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053FDB0E@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Subject: Mint Commodore PET FOR Sale From: "Stephen McCoy and Charmiane Barr" Date: 1997/06/17Message-Id: <01bc7b43$fddee5c0$b8933dcf@charmaine> Newsgroups: aus.computers.amiga[More Headers] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC7B1A.15107EE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey all If you are in the market for antique computers and accessories I got one for you--Commodore PET (Slim 25) with a working tape drive and cable. The unit works at its factory best standards as well as the tape drive. If anyone is collecting antique Commodore computer from the seventies/eighties this is a classic machine and there are few left in North America. If you wish to bid on this unit (only serious bids will be received/answered) please write an email to me at the below address and I will get back to you.Thanks for reading and have a good day.-- Stephen McCoy "Quiet"mrsmrx@efni.comWise men are those with an open mind to subjects others are not :] From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 20 13:44:11 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) Message-ID: <33abcdfe.10703696@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Does any one here collect old microprocessors like 4004, 4040, 8008, 8080 etc? The oldest CPU type I have is an NEC 8080A. Still trying to figure out how to make use of it. The legs are pretty corroded (used to live in humid climates). I've a Z8001 too, paid more than $100 for it but never used. Maybe I'll find an Olivetti M20 one of these days... There's a UK company that used to advertise in the UK version of the Elektor 4-5 years ago. They advertised the TI9900, NS32032 and other odd CPUs. Ben From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 20 14:20:05 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) Message-ID: <199706201920.AA04925@world.std.com> > Define "plans". I have full sets of the schematics for the units in my > collection (as I suspect many do), but if you are talking about the > mechanical drawings for things like the case, boards, etc., I am not awar > of those ever being made available. The case was a standard box available at the time. Some of the inside brackets were custom as were the layouts. I've never seen a full printset, and I wonder if there really was. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 20 14:20:22 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Altairs and old stories Message-ID: <199706201920.AA05209@world.std.com> > I know - this will be something I do in Electronics class next year. > While everyone else makes an oscillator or something stupid, I'll build > an Imsai! You laugh, I did something along that line (1971) only it was a solidstate Oscope of my own design. I wanted the class for acces to the tinshop so I could fabricate the steel shields(for the crt) and chassis. If it were three years later it would have been a mark-8! While off the subject... I had a Horizon up in '78 and put the NS* version of the pascal P-system. Since I knew zip about pascal I decided to take a course that used pascal, so happens it was data structures. Blew the proffessors mind when after going on about the 1180 the class would use for assignments I asked if I could use my own system if it conformed to Niklus&wirth. Seems he didn't believe me until I brough the whole mess (left the printer behind) with me the next class and set it up! It was the begining of the revolution as Apples were also just starting to be seen. A year later that declaration of I happen to have a suitable system was no longer an item of skepticism. Sorta like the pocket calc in my EE junior year.... ;-) Allison From chemif at mbox.queen.it Fri Jun 20 14:32:40 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) Message-ID: <199706201932.VAA03199@mbox.queen.it> At 06:57 19/06/97 -0400, you wrote: > >On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, steve wrote: > >> At 06:10 13/06/97 -0400, you wrote: > > > >> >Of course this all assumes that I *have* a PC. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > >Besides, I was talking about CP/M for the Commodore 1541 drive. That's a >multi-speed drive that uses GCR encoding, not MFM. Try writing THAT with >22DISK on your PC-clone. >I used to know that only C=1570 and C=1571 were capable to read and write CP/M disks in a proper way. (GCR+MFM) By the way anyone else apart me owning a C=1570 here? Ciao From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 20 14:52:07 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) Message-ID: <199706201952.AA06984@world.std.com> > The oldest CPU type I have is an NEC 8080A. Still trying to figure out > how to make use of it. The legs are pretty corroded (used to live in > humid climates). I could give you a dozen of them (all pre '80 date code or older!). You need other parts to build a system using it. Minimally you need 8224 clock chip and a 8bit latch or 8228 to get the status signals off the buss. The rest if perpherals and memory. Others from that (pre 1980) era I have: IMSAI IMP-48 (works but, I really need a manual or schematic!!!) circa '79 If you've never seen one it's a small board with relays and opto IO for control use, tty interface, cassette IO led display and keyboard for programming(in hex!). National SC/MP 8a500 cpu(late '78) RCA1802(base cosmac elf 1979, board from the first PE article) 6502(old part) TI9900 chip on board(technico super starter system) moto 6800D1 kit('75-76) LSI-11/03 card that's a tad older them most of those (functional too). I also have a small system using the National nibbleBASIC (8070) chip in 1980. Allison From william at ans.net Fri Jun 20 15:39:44 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: <33abcdfe.10703696@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199706202039.AA18559@interlock.ans.net> > Does any one here collect old microprocessors like 4004, 4040, 8008, > 8080 etc? I tend to snatch up any old chips I can (old being early 1970s). Of course, I have to bend the rules for microprocessors, as very few were released back then. I do not yet have a 4004, but I do have some early types like the 8008, Signetics 2650, Motorola XC6800, and probably quite a few 8080s and derivatives. "Not yet classics" include the AT&T/WE 32000s, Motorola XC88K, early SPARCs, etc. I am still looking for some, namely any iAPX 432 chips, MC68012, and a 4MHz 68000 (probably an XC). William Donzelli william@ans.net From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Fri Jun 20 15:44:56 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts (was: Re: Yet another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <199706201932.VAA03199@mbox.queen.it> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970620214456.006859c0@post.keme.co.uk> At 21:32 20/06/97 +0200, you wrote: >At 06:57 19/06/97 -0400, you wrote: >> >>On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, steve wrote: >> >>> At 06:10 13/06/97 -0400, you wrote: >> >> >> >>> >Of course this all assumes that I *have* a PC. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> >> > >>Besides, I was talking about CP/M for the Commodore 1541 drive. That's a >>multi-speed drive that uses GCR encoding, not MFM. Try writing THAT with >>22DISK on your PC-clone. >>I used to know that only C=1570 and C=1571 were capable to read and write >CP/M disks in a proper way. (GCR+MFM) >By the way anyone else apart me owning a C=1570 here? > >Ciao > >i own a 1570, its a american one with a step down transformer, Its connected to my PC, and guess what, it writes CPM!!! Steve Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Fri Jun 20 16:44:21 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) References: <33abcdfe.10703696@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33AAF9B5.1ACC@ndirect.co.uk> Benedict Chong wrote: > > Does any one here collect old microprocessors like 4004, 4040, 8008, > 8080 etc? > > The oldest CPU type I have is an NEC 8080A. Still trying to figure out > how to make use of it. The legs are pretty corroded (used to live in > humid climates). > > I've a Z8001 too, paid more than $100 for it but never used. Maybe > I'll find an Olivetti M20 one of these days... > > There's a UK company that used to advertise in the UK version of the > Elektor 4-5 years ago. They advertised the TI9900, NS32032 and other > odd CPUs. > > Ben I would like to collect them but I can't find any! If anybody has got contacts please let us know. Thanks -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From timolmst at cyberramp.net Fri Jun 20 16:02:07 1997 From: timolmst at cyberramp.net (Tim Olmstead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Mark 8 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970620160112.27a78c60@mailhost.cyberramp.net> At 06:30 PM 6/18/97 -0500, you wrote: > >On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >> | ---------- >> | From: James Willing >> | Subject: Re: Mark 8 >> | >> | On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: >> | >> | > I need another project :) and I was thinking about building the Mark >> | > 8 computer. Somewhere, I seem to recall that someone was having the >> | > board sets for this computer made up, does anyone out there know >> | > or remember who might be doing this? >> | >> | That would be me... >> >> If you get one of these up and running, I have a Scelbi book, "Space >> Wars for the 8008 Microprocessor" with full hex code listings... > >I also have the three books - > > An 8008 Editor Program > Machine Language Programming for the 8008 > Assembler Programs for the 8008 > >I am such a packrat 8-) > >BC > > Here I go volunteering again. Could those books be scanned/ocr'd? I'm sure that the original authors wouldn't care, even if they did admit to writing them. I have all the hardware and software to do that. I have a softspot in my heart (and my head) for the 8008. That was my first computer. I couldn't afford to buy something like the Mark 8, so I designed, and built it, myself. By the time I was ready to retire it, I had an S100 video card (SSM), and a 9-track tape drive, running one track serial at 5k baud. Used my own designed r/w amps, even. It ran great, just real slow. I still have the CPU chip from that machine, holding down a piece of foam. Seing these posts about the Mark 8 made me nastolgic. If I could get enough data, I might consider building a new machine with that old "first CPU" chip. Today it would look a LOT different. Let's see, what WOULD it look like? Start with a PAL to generate the oddball clocks, and some misc decoding, for it, then throw a 32k skinnydip SRAM at it (OK, you can tie one address line to ground to limit it to 16K), an 8K EPROM (since that's what I've got in stock), say, an 8251 for serial I/O, and you've got a basic machine. What do ya think? Tim Olmstead timolmst@cyberramp.net From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 20 16:03:51 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Vector 3-5030 References: <33AAA583.4C08@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <33AAF037.F01@rain.org> David Betz wrote: > > Does anyone know anything about the Vector 3-5030 from Vector Graphics? > Is it considered a collectable? I recently found one at the town dump > and brought it home. It displays some sort of ROM monitor screen when > it comes up with version number 4.2. It has a dual floppy drive but no > software. I assume it is a CP/M machine since one of the boards in the > S-100 card cage has a Z80 on it. > I guess collectable is in the mind of the beholder, thus I evade the question :). I probably have at least a couple around here along with (I think) the hardware manuals. As I recall, the disk is a 16 hard sectored diskette and the ones I have run CP/M. I have a *bunch* of original Vector Graphic system disks although I don't know if they are all interchangeable between the various Vector Systems. The system I just looked at does not have a floppy disk as part of the terminal but rather has the hard drive and floppy in a separate, single enclosure. From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Fri Jun 20 16:32:33 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Vector 3-5030 References: <33AAA583.4C08@xlisper.mv.com> <33AAF037.F01@rain.org> Message-ID: <33AAF6F1.3004@xlisper.mv.com> Marvin wrote: > > David Betz wrote: > > > > Does anyone know anything about the Vector 3-5030 from Vector Graphics? > > Is it considered a collectable? I recently found one at the town dump > > and brought it home. It displays some sort of ROM monitor screen when > > it comes up with version number 4.2. It has a dual floppy drive but no > > software. I assume it is a CP/M machine since one of the boards in the > > S-100 card cage has a Z80 on it. > > > > I guess collectable is in the mind of the beholder, thus I evade the > question :). I probably have at least a couple around here along with > (I think) the hardware manuals. As I recall, the disk is a 16 hard > sectored diskette and the ones I have run CP/M. I have a *bunch* of > original Vector Graphic system disks although I don't know if they are > all interchangeable between the various Vector Systems. The system I > just looked at does not have a floppy disk as part of the terminal but > rather has the hard drive and floppy in a separate, single enclosure. The machine I have also has the floppies in an external box. Do you have any idea where I could get a copy of the system disk(s)? -- David Betz DavidBetz@aol.com dbetz@xlisper.mv.com (603) 472-2389 From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 20 17:02:47 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Mark 8 Message-ID: <199706202202.AA20968@world.std.com> > Today it would look a LOT different. Let's see, what WOULD it look like? > Start with a PAL to generate the oddball clocks, and some misc decoding, f > it, then throw a 32k skinnydip SRAM at it (OK, you can tie one address li > to ground to limit it to 16K), an 8K EPROM (since that's what I've got in > stock), say, an 8251 for serial I/O, and you've got a basic machine. Actually a 8ksram and a 8kprom would do it. Or better yet a 2 or 8k EEprom. That this is slow enough you could use the EEprom for sram! (the slow parts was 20us and the real fast one was 10us (single byte instruction). The real annoying part is capturing all the muxed status and syncing it. Making the front pannel logic is the real work, it wouldn't be right without the FP! > What do ya think? Tim, your a sick puppy. It's got style! Allison From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 20 17:05:41 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Vector 3-5030 References: <33AAA583.4C08@xlisper.mv.com> <33AAF037.F01@rain.org> <33AAF6F1.3004@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <33AAFEB5.3C3D@rain.org> David Betz wrote: > > Marvin wrote: > > > > David Betz wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone know anything about the Vector 3-5030 from Vector Graphics? > > > Is it considered a collectable? I recently found one at the town dump > > > and brought it home. It displays some sort of ROM monitor screen when > > > > (I think) the hardware manuals. As I recall, the disk is a 16 hard > > sectored diskette and the ones I have run CP/M. I have a *bunch* of > > original Vector Graphic system disks although I don't know if they are > > all interchangeable between the various Vector Systems. The system I > > The machine I have also has the floppies in an external box. Do you > have any idea where I could get a copy of the system disk(s)? > Why bother with a copy when the original is probably available :). I have quite a few Vector Graphic system disks that were used with the Vector machines. The label indicates (at least this batch of disks) it is the CP/M system for 3032. I don't know off the top of my head if this will work on your system. I suspect it will but maybe someone else can verify that. From william at ans.net Fri Jun 20 17:43:27 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: More DEC stuff to save In-Reply-To: <33A976E8.4952@rain.org> Message-ID: <199706202243.AA24227@interlock.ans.net> If anyone is a DEC collector and in the Chicago area, I have some good news... Johan van Zanten is in possession of a stripped out VAX-11/750 (perhaps good for power supplies and little parts), as well as (I think, memory is a bit hazy) an RL02 and RA81 in a small expansion rack. These two units, of course are quite heavy, but the building they are in does have a very nice loading dock/elevator. He wants to see these things go to a good home. Send him an email if you are interested. William Donzelli william@ans.net From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 20 18:44:02 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Altair 8800 Schematics via www In-Reply-To: <33AAF9B5.1ACC@ndirect.co.uk> from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 20, 97 09:44:21 pm Message-ID: <9706202244.AA03594@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 234 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970620/2c1978c6/attachment-0001.ksh From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jun 20 19:36:15 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Collector Article Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970620173641.4227beea@ricochet.net> At 12:36 AM 6/20/97 -0700, you wrote: >Gee, then I have an Apple bonanza worth $2000 in my garage. Whatever. >This is what I am dreading of this hobby, that assholes like this Haddock >guy start trying to price things out. I think it's as someone said; at the time the book was written, Apple II's were still in strong demand, esp. from the school market. My girlfriend's school still uses and maintains a fleet of II's. (Schools simply cannot afford to buy lots of new computers.) (Ask me, if you're interested, about how macs ended up in her classroom.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 20 16:52:50 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: This mlist is ACTIVE! In-Reply-To: <249dab7c.c3513-mojaveg@annex033.ridgecrest.ca.us> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 1997 mojaveg@ridgecrest.ca.us wrote: > Hi Benedict, > > > I just subscribed to this mailing list yesterday and am amazed at the > > traffic. Just today, I seem to have received more than 80 messages! > > Which is why I'm dropping it. Sheesh. What a spoil-sport. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 20 20:13:06 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Front Panel IMSAI 8080/ Altair 8800b Turnkey for trade In-Reply-To: <33A92E62.3C38@ix.netcom.com> References: <970618201031_-628125255@emout19.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970620181306.00e117d0@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:04 AM 6/19/97 -0400, you wrote: > >I have a front panel IMSAI 8080 and an Altair 8800b Turnkey for trade. I >would be willing to trade for other computers of equal vintage. I am >especially looking for a Processor Technology Sol. I am interested in >trade only, I will not sell the units. Email me with any interesting >trade offers. Well... I've got a SOL-20 that I might be interested in parting with. What all is in the 8800b turnkey? I've actually got one in the collection, but its missing some parts which is what sparks my interest. Regards; -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jun 20 19:22:44 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: BOOK The History of Computers Message-ID: <199706210114.SAA17033@mx4.u.washington.edu> I'd like to buy. Can I reserve it? Please e-mail me with your address and I'll send you a check. (woukd you prefer money order? some sort of trade? I have scads of old computer stuff.) Manney ---------- > From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > To: Manney > Subject: FS: BOOK The History of Computers > Date: Friday, June 20, 1997 1:52 PM > > For Sale: > > The History of Computers -A Family Alubum of Computer Genealogy- > by Les Freed > ZD press > ISBN 1-56276-275-3 > all color and lots of pictures and illustrations > > $12 (shipping included within the United States, original price is $24.95) > From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 20 17:08:17 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: <33abcdfe.10703696@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > There's a UK company that used to advertise in the UK version of the > Elektor 4-5 years ago. They advertised the TI9900, NS32032 and other > odd CPUs. You could probably go buy a TI99/4a from a thrift store for a few bucks and rip the TI9900 out of it and save a couple bucks off of what Elektor probably sells them for. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 20 20:44:43 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Collector Article In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970620173641.4227beea@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 12:36 AM 6/20/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Gee, then I have an Apple bonanza worth $2000 in my garage. Whatever. > >This is what I am dreading of this hobby, that assholes like this Haddock > >guy start trying to price things out. > > I think it's as someone said; at the time the book was written, Apple II's > were still in strong demand, esp. from the school market. My girlfriend's > school still uses and maintains a fleet of II's. (Schools simply cannot > afford to buy lots of new computers.) (Ask me, if you're interested, about > how macs ended up in her classroom.) Yeah, but an Apple ][ at $200-$400? Maybe they were referring to an enhanced //e, and not the actual original ][. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From foxnhare at goldrush.com Fri Jun 20 22:37:55 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Commodore Variable Speed Drives??? Message-ID: <33AB4C94.4DC8@goldrush.com> References: <199706200702.AAA08312@lists.u.washington.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to burst your bubbles, but the Commodore drives ARE 300 RPM like most of the others, many 1541 flywheels have the speed-calibaration diagram on them (use fluorecent light to determine correct RPM). 154s and the lot have software&hardware to adjust the density on tracks so more data can be stuffed in inner tracks and allow the outer ones to spread out. No special speed involved here. It is because of this that many computers with dumb drives can't read the 1541 format (including Amiga!) the controller cards seem to be limited in this fasion. Thus there is quite a demand for 1541 drivess and (pre-converted) .d64 files in the 64 emulator community. ;) I think all the 5.25" Commodore drives were based on the variable density initiated in the 2040 DOS. My Complete Commodore Inner Space Anthology has differing sector counts on tracks on all the models (4040, 2031, 1541, 8050, 8250/SFD-1001) The hard drives (9060 & 9090) seem to be uniform thoough. Things changed with the 1581 disk (3.5") which uses a variation of the MFM format, and can be readable with PC/Amiga computers (with the proper software, of course.) -- Taking quotes from that LA article on collecting: > Most of these early machines and programs, which didn't work very >well when they were new [IBM PC,MS/DOS], are even more troublesome to maintain now >[Windows 95]--and have been rendered obsolete by wave after wave of new equipment. >[Macintosh, Amiga, NeXT, etc., etc.] Yep, translates to modern-day very well. > Greelish, a computer repairman, has spent about $2,600 in recent >years building a collection of 35 computers, mostly by trolling for >bargains on the Internet. $2,600 for only 35 machines???? Anyone have his address, I have some 64s for him! -- "Altairless" Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From BigLouS at aol.com Fri Jun 20 21:54:09 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) Message-ID: <970620225409_125221841@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-20 18:10:08 EDT > Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got > > > > 3... I suggest that a Classic Computer Rescue team head out to Kai's house and rescue two of those Altairs. They could them be put up for adoption and ultimately be given a loving home where they will be receive the INDIVIDUAL care and nurturing that they deserve. :-) Lou From BigLouS at aol.com Fri Jun 20 21:54:08 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:29 2005 Subject: CP/M disk (was Digilog 1500) Message-ID: <970620225404_-1328215343@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-20 03:16:54 EDT, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Hmm. One of my friends got a LOT of apple II stuff from a business that > > went under. One of the things he got was an 8" CP/M disk. I'm gonna go > > try to get my hands on it. (It said CP/M on it). It may be > > destroyed/gone by now. This was a year or two ago, before I got > > interested in old stuff... Any way to tell what system it's for without > > being able to read it? The disk could be for an Apple system. 8" drive controllers where offered for the Apple II line back in 1980 because of the huge (for the time) capacity of DSDD 8" disks. I had a Lobo controller hooked up to a Franklin 1000 and two 8 inchers and it was pretty impressive. I eventually replaced the drives with a 10 meg Corvus hard drive (cost $5000). I've been trying to locate an 8" controller for my Franklin 1000 for quite a while but haven't had any luck. Lou From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 20 22:10:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: (fwd) FS: TI Equipment (fwd) Message-ID: Here's some TI/99 stuff that might interest some people. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Hole In The Wall now offers a small (but growing) selection of TI99/4A parts and equipment as a service to the TI community. Our Web site should be up within 10 days. TI Peripheral Expansion Boxes - $40 TI99/4A consoles (black and silver) - $27.50 (orig. box, manuals, RF) TI RS232 Cards - $40 TI Disk Controller Cards (SSSD) - $20 TI 32x8 Memory Expansion - $25 TI Writer (orig. cart, disk and manual in binder) - $10 Much more to come! Email for more info. -- <= KEITH BERGMAN => The Glass Eye / Hole In the Wall Enterprises PIT Magazine / Chicken Dog kbergman@toltbbs.com "just want a way not to be what gets sold to me" - Jawbox -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 20 22:31:48 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33ab4ac8.2690231@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:08:17 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: % %You could probably go buy a TI99/4a from a thrift store for a few bucks %and rip the TI9900 out of it and save a couple bucks off of what Elektor %probably sells them for. Elektor is a european electronics mag. I was referring to one of the advertisers who claimed to be selling these relatively older CPUs. Anyway, it'd be a shame to rip apart a TI99/4 just for the CPU. Ben From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 20 22:37:16 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: DEC Pro350/380 Message-ID: <199706210337.AA20882@world.std.com> Im looking for a case for the DEC pro380 (same size as 350) as I have a complete board set (cables and even power supply) for it and no case! Allison From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 20 23:50:01 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: <33ab4ac8.2690231@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > Anyway, it'd be a shame to rip apart a TI99/4 just for the CPU. Nah, you rip apart a TI99/4 just for fun. (And revenge on what TI did to stock prices of every other small computer maker back when the fit hit the shan). Of course, I won't do so. My fiancee would not let me die for months if I was to damage one of her sweethearts. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 00:49:49 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) References: Message-ID: <33AB6B7D.5283@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > > > There's a UK company that used to advertise in the UK version of the > > Elektor 4-5 years ago. They advertised the TI9900, NS32032 and other > > odd CPUs. > > You could probably go buy a TI99/4a from a thrift store for a few bucks > and rip the TI9900 out of it and save a couple bucks off of what Elektor > probably sells them for. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Oh, thank you for the suggestion BUT I have SEVEN TI99/4A(s). MYproblem is the 4004 and the 8008 ! enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 01:11:36 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? Message-ID: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> What's wrong with this (virtual) "group" ??? Of all the collecting groups I belong to, this is the only one where my (and I suppose other's) public (and private) requests for help have been ignored and (worse) I suspect even opposed. Is there something I don't know? If this the case I would like to know. Thank you. Also your caper to insist on having ALL the items in the collection in working condition is, in my opinion, unique to this group. I can understand (and share) the motivation but surely we (I?) collect for the design point of view and for the historical importance. Don't we? Or am I in the wrong group anyway? Sorry for the frankness but I thought I'd get this one out of my chest before it gets even worse (I am still owed at least 5 replies to my messages) in that I will be banned from this mailing list. Hope not. What is your problem? Hoping to have a straight answer I am Yours sincerely enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 21 00:40:56 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: <33ab4ac8.2690231@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:08:17 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > > % > %You could probably go buy a TI99/4a from a thrift store for a few > bucks > %and rip the TI9900 out of it and save a couple bucks off of what > Elektor > %probably sells them for. > > Elektor is a european electronics mag. I was referring to one of the > advertisers who claimed to be selling these relatively older CPUs. > > Anyway, it'd be a shame to rip apart a TI99/4 just for the CPU. Not really. They're like leaves on a tree. (At least where I'm at.) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 21 00:52:51 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: <33AB6B7D.5283@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > > > > > There's a UK company that used to advertise in the UK version of the > > > Elektor 4-5 years ago. They advertised the TI9900, NS32032 and other > > > odd CPUs. > > > > You could probably go buy a TI99/4a from a thrift store for a few bucks > > and rip the TI9900 out of it and save a couple bucks off of what Elektor > > probably sells them for. > > > > Sam > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > > Oh, thank you for the suggestion BUT I have SEVEN TI99/4A(s). MYproblem > is the 4004 and the 8008 ! Ah shit! An 8008? Sheesh! Just buy a Scelbi 8H and rip it apart for the processor. Those things are like fleas on a dog! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 21 00:51:28 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > > > Anyway, it'd be a shame to rip apart a TI99/4 just for the CPU. > > Nah, you rip apart a TI99/4 just for fun. (And revenge on what TI did > to stock prices of every other small computer maker back when the fit > hit the shan). > > Of course, I won't do so. My fiancee would not let me die for months if > I was to damage one of her sweethearts. Hey Ward, next time I see a $.99 TI I'll buy it and ship it out to you so you can take your frustrations out on it. I'll even stencil in "saTIn" on it so your fiancee will realize it is an *evil* TI and needs excorsizing. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 21 01:08:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: AIM65 (fwd) Message-ID: More information on the AIMs. I am currently working on a bulk deal with Mike for $20 a piece. While these are truly AIMs, they are not "stock" AIMs. They have been altered (really improved). While I think the improvements are very nice, I would've preferred a stock AIM. However, these definitely sound like nice units. Anyway, here's the scoop. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:45:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikeooo1@aol.com To: dastar@crl.com Subject: Re: AIM65 Gentlemen, In response to all the interest so many of you have shown in my Aim 65 collection let me say that they are all in new working condition.The beauty about the Aim 65 is that it was a single board computer which was self contained in that it had its display,printer,and memory all mounted on its board so that peripheral attachments weren't necessary.Yes,it comes with a keyboard and power supply also.I developed a plastic enclosure and metal base and ROM board for the system so the keyboard and power supply could be housed with the Aim in a compact unit and programs could be burned onto eproms which would seat in the ROM board rather than rely on tape storage which involves a recorder hookup and would be quite slow. I didn't like the enclosure or the unwieldy power supply that Rockwell created for the Aim so I had my own plastic enclosure injection molded by a plastics manufacturer. I had a metal base manufactured for the unit so it could be professionally represented as an industrial computer rather than just the "hobbyist's computer" Rockwell originally designed it for.I also have production equipment I developed for creating programs downloading them directly from the Aim into the RAM buffer of eprom burning devices and ultimately housing the programmed eproms in the ROM board I developed which sat on the bottom of the case housing.I have built a successful company around the Aim which is truly an amazing computer and has withstood the test of time as many people are still using it today.As for its value,the unit sold for approx.$450 (computerboard and keyboard) and its part are still in demand today.The display chips alone cost $30 apiece and there are 5 on each display while the print head alone sells for $105,the entire printer about $180. From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 21 00:59:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > What's wrong with this (virtual) "group" ??? Uh, nothing. > Of all the collecting groups I belong to, this is the only one where my > (and I suppose other's) public (and private) requests for help have been > ignored and (worse) I suspect even opposed. Enrico, I sincerely think you concerns are self-conceived. In other words, I don't think your requests have been ignored or opposed. If you feel ignored, it is probably because nobody has an answer for your question. I know how you feel. I get the same way sometimes and I know how frustrating it can be. However, I think this is the only discussion group I know of where I can ALWAYS get an answer for my questions relating to classic computers. Hands down, there is no better resource. As far as being opposed, any such messages you may have read opposing your requests were probably taken the wrong way, and the author perhaps intended it to be funny and not an insult to you. > Is there something I don't know? If this the case I would like to know. > Thank you. We're all as lost as you are. > Also your caper to insist on having ALL the items in the collection in > working condition is, in my opinion, unique to this group. I can > understand (and share) the motivation but surely we (I?) collect for the > design point of view and for the historical importance. Don't we? Or am > I in the wrong group anyway? While it is definitely nicer to have a working system, I'll take the broken ones too, but only if it is something truly rare. I have been lucky in that about 96% of everything I have ever gotten has worked. The fun in collecting is restoring the systems to working condition if they are broken. Its always nicer to have a piece of history that still operates the way it did 10 or 20 years ago. And it's always nicer to be able to actually boot-up an old system and play with it, rather than look at it. > Sorry for the frankness but I thought I'd get this one out of my chest > before it gets even worse (I am still owed at least 5 replies to my > messages) in that I will be banned from this mailing list. Hope not. No such thing, Enrico. We like you. Stick around. One of us ignorant fools will have an answer to one of your questions one of these days. :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 21 02:34:46 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? References: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33AB8416.7058@rain.org> e.tedeschi wrote: > > What's wrong with this (virtual) "group" ??? > > Of all the collecting groups I belong to, this is the only one where my > (and I suppose other's) public (and private) requests for help have been > ignored and (worse) I suspect even opposed. > > Is there something I don't know? If this the case I would like to know. > Thank you. > I have found that generally speaking, this group tends to share its knowledge. A lack of responses to questions generally means (at least in my experience here and elsewhere) that nobody has anything useful to contribute to the answer. Perhaps I have missed something, but where would you get the idea that requests for help might be opposed? I have learned a great deal here, and at least so far, feel that I have received far more help than I have been able to provide. > Also your caper to insist on having ALL the items in the collection in > working condition is, in my opinion, unique to this group. I can > understand (and share) the motivation but surely we (I?) collect for the > design point of view and for the historical importance. Don't we? Or am > I in the wrong group anyway? > I only wish that everything I have worked! However a lack of documentation and schematics in some cases make it very difficult to check out if something is working, let alone fix a problem. I think most of what I have works, but again, not everything. Where did the idea that there is an insistance on having "ALL the items in the collection in working condition"? I have only been here a few weeks but have found no indication of such an attitude. > Sorry for the frankness but I thought I'd get this one out of my chest > before it gets even worse (I am still owed at least 5 replies to my > messages) in that I will be banned from this mailing list. Hope not. > > What is your problem? > > Hoping to have a straight answer > In almost all cases, I find it MUCH better to ask about something perceived as a problem rather than let it simmer and finally boil out of control. I am rather curious as to where, or perhaps how, your reaction developed. Banned from a list? I would sure hope not as I haven't even seen a hint of justification for that action. From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 21 02:39:40 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) References: <33abcdfe.10703696@smtp.ix.netcom.com> <33AAF9B5.1ACC@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33AB853C.3042@rain.org> e.tedeschi wrote: > > Benedict Chong wrote: > > > > Does any one here collect old microprocessors like 4004, 4040, 8008, > > 8080 etc? > > > > I would like to collect them but I can't find any! If anybody has got > contacts please let us know. Thanks > -- I have started asking around to find out if anyone has any of these older chips. Most of the people I have asked have worked with these chips but so far no luck. HOWEVER, I still have a LOT more people to ask about them. When I find out something, I'll post it to the Listserver. From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sat Jun 21 03:32:36 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: This mlist is ACTIVE! Message-ID: <33AB91A4.1CA2@oboe.calpoly.edu> I would suggest subscribing to the list in Digest form. One big email message per day and you can skim through to the ones you want to read. Or just delete the whole thing if you're not in the mood (heaven forbid!) > > I just subscribed to this mailing list yesterday and am amazed at the > > traffic. Just today, I seem to have received more than 80 messages! > > Which is why I'm dropping it. > From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 05:37:46 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? References: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> <33AB8416.7058@rain.org> Message-ID: <33ABAEFA.1044@ndirect.co.uk> Marvin wrote: > > > Sorry for the frankness but I thought I'd get this one out of my chest > > before it gets even worse (I am still owed at least 5 replies to my > > messages) in that I will be banned from this mailing list. Hope not. > > > > What is your problem? > > > > Hoping to have a straight answer > > > > In almost all cases, I find it MUCH better to ask about something > perceived as a problem rather than let it simmer and finally boil out of > control. I am rather curious as to where, or perhaps how, your reaction > developed. Banned from a list? I would sure hope not as I haven't even > seen a hint of justification for that action. Well, to get more specific, I have the (perhaps wrong) feeling that: a) You are against collectors who collect for the historical importance onyl and are not really worried if the item works or not (as long as all the parts are in there and the thing can be made to work if and when required). I have been ridiculized when I suggested this one way to go about collecting. b) You are against collectors who want ot take out bits and pieces from the systems in order to show them separately (but retaining and perhaps even ehibiting the "crippled" item). I have been refused help in thsi respect when it became apparent I was going to do this. c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. Of course I have no proof of the above but from the short experience I had here, I think that the problem exhists as opposed to the "openess" of other American collecting groups like, for example, the radio collecting community which has been VERY helpful with me and other "foreigners" to buy and export stuff from the USA and CANADA (what about the stuff you ARE importing from overseas then?). I think that if you think I am wrong the best way to demonstrate it, if you care, is not with words but with facts. Thank you for your interest enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From pcoad at crl.com Sat Jun 21 04:39:01 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Who was in Australia? In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2053FDB0E@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Subject: Mint Commodore PET FOR Sale > From: "Stephen McCoy and Charmiane Barr" > > Date: 1997/06/17Message-Id: > <01bc7b43$fddee5c0$b8933dcf@charmaine> > Newsgroups: aus.computers.amiga[More Headers] I'll bite on this. How much is one of these worth? I have almost zero experience with PETs having only seen 2 in person. What are the relative rarities of the various models of PETs? Did they make a bunch of them? Are they really common in some places and pretty rare in others? The ones I have seen are pretty cool looking in a retro-future kind of way. Also note that whois reports that efni.com is in Canada. The machine might not be in Australia. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Fri Jun 20 21:32:04 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33ABAEFA.1044@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On 21-Jun-97, e.tedeschi wrote: >c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") >collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that >it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a >deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance >after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody >need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. I think in this case, the thing that chases people away is the sheer cost of shipping these items overseas. Most of it is fairly heavy, and in my experiece of shipping just within in U.S., can be quite costly to ship just about anywhere. At one point I was working on a deal with a gentleman in Australia to get a C-16 with a a lot of original cassette software from him, but he eventually backed out because of the shipping cost, and this was with a very small system. Unless it was quite a rare system, or something you wanted quite badly, it wouldn't likely be worth the total cost, even if it didn't cost anything to actually purchase the item. I myself wouldn't mind adding some of the foreign systems to my collection, but don't for the reasons above. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From danjo at xnet.com Sat Jun 21 06:55:42 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: AIM65 (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > these definitely sound like nice units. Anyway, here's the scoop. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Computer Historian,Programmer,Musician,Philosopher,Athlete,Writer,Jackass > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:45:28 -0400 (EDT) > From: Mikeooo1@aol.com > > for its value,the unit sold for approx.$450 (computerboard and keyboard) and > its part are still in demand today.The display chips alone cost $30 apiece > and there are 5 on each display while the print head alone sells for $105,the > entire printer about $180. Gee, Sam, MY message had a bit more after this part. Did your mailer truncate it accidently? BC From danjo at xnet.com Sat Jun 21 07:04:34 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: <33AB6B7D.5283@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > > > There's a UK company that used to advertise in the UK version of the > > > Elektor 4-5 years ago. They advertised the TI9900, NS32032 and other > > > odd CPUs. > > You could probably go buy a TI99/4a from a thrift store for a few bucks > > and rip the TI9900 out of it and save a couple bucks off of what Elektor > > probably sells them for. > > Oh, thank you for the suggestion BUT I have SEVEN TI99/4A(s). MYproblem > is the 4004 and the 8008 ! I thought the 8008 was developed to go into a terminal. And then the original *user* decided against using it so Intel started hawking it as a micro-cpu. It must hav made it into SOMETHING that was not a computer. Someone mentioned thr front panel of a DEC but it must have been used in some terminals. Anybody know if and which? As I remember the 4004 was actually Intels first micro-cpu and I don't know of any commercial product that used them - but I don't know everything. Any product types and names? BC From danjo at xnet.com Sat Jun 21 07:22:58 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > What's wrong with this (virtual) "group" ??? > > Of all the collecting groups I belong to, this is the only one where my > (and I suppose other's) public (and private) requests for help have been > ignored and (worse) I suspect even opposed. I am speechless. I personally invited you Enrico after your email to me from the Classic Computer Encyclopedia Web Page. If you have been opposed, it must have been in private email as I read just about everything posted on the group. > Is there something I don't know? If this the case I would like to know. > Thank you. Where would I start! 8-) > Also your caper to insist on having ALL the items in the collection in > working condition is, in my opinion, unique to this group. I can > understand (and share) the motivation but surely we (I?) collect for the > design point of view and for the historical importance. Don't we? Or am > I in the wrong group anyway? I think MOST of us here would PREFER to have working systems but then even some of mine don't work ALL the time. You can go ahead and collect ANYTHING you want. Each of us collect for different reasons. I like, I guess the word would be systems. I like whole working systems. I start with something less but then keep building it up until it is a system. If you are more interested in the DESIGN side, I guess it doesn't matter if it works or not. But in MY mind, if it still doesn't work - something was wrong WITH the design 8-) If you want to disassemble units for show - go ahead! > Sorry for the frankness but I thought I'd get this one out of my chest > before it gets even worse (I am still owed at least 5 replies to my > messages) in that I will be banned from this mailing list. Hope not. Huh? How do you get banned from this list? Who owes you replies? > What is your problem? Ditto, my friend. > Hoping to have a straight answer Well, if I could understand the question, it might help. BC From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Sat Jun 21 07:30:11 1997 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) Message-ID: <199706211233.FAA08606@mx5.u.washington.edu> ---------- > From: Paul E Coad > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Who was in Australia? > Date: Saturday, June 21, 1997 7:39 PM > > > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > Subject: Mint Commodore PET FOR Sale > > From: "Stephen McCoy and Charmiane Barr" > > > > Date: 1997/06/17Message-Id: > > <01bc7b43$fddee5c0$b8933dcf@charmaine> > > Newsgroups: aus.computers.amiga[More Headers] > > I'll bite on this. How much is one of these worth? I have almost > zero experience with PETs having only seen 2 in person. What are the > relative rarities of the various models of PETs? Did they make a > bunch of them? Are they really common in some places and pretty > rare in others? > > The ones I have seen are pretty cool looking in a retro-future kind of way. > > Also note that whois reports that efni.com is in Canada. The machine > might not be in Australia. > > --pec > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html Well I'm in Australia and naturally have emailed mrsmrx@efni.com to ask their location. Unlike Altair and Imsai, PETs are obtainable here. I have one chicklet keyboard 4k version, a CBM 3032 and a CBM 8032 hulk. I suspect they will always be around because they are so hard to destroy. The case is very solid. I found the "hulk" in a paddock, like some people find ancient cars! I've never attempted to power this one up though. From danjo at xnet.com Sat Jun 21 07:37:44 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33ABAEFA.1044@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > Marvin wrote: > > e.tedeschi wrote: > > > Sorry for the frankness but I thought I'd get this one out of my chest > > > before it gets even worse (I am still owed at least 5 replies to my > > > messages) in that I will be banned from this mailing list. Hope not. > > > > > > What is your problem? > > > > > > Hoping to have a straight answer > > > > In almost all cases, I find it MUCH better to ask about something > > perceived as a problem rather than let it simmer and finally boil out of > > control. I am rather curious as to where, or perhaps how, your reaction > > developed. Banned from a list? I would sure hope not as I haven't even > > seen a hint of justification for that action. Now that I have read some responses...... > > Well, to get more specific, I have the (perhaps wrong) feeling that: > > a) You are against collectors who collect for the historical importance > onyl and are not really worried if the item works or not (as long as all > the parts are in there and the thing can be made to work if and when > required). I have been ridiculized when I suggested this one way to go > about collecting. I am sure nobody MEANT what was said. There will ALWAYS be two sides. > b) You are against collectors who want ot take out bits and pieces from > the systems in order to show them separately (but retaining and perhaps > even ehibiting the "crippled" item). I have been refused help in thsi > respect when it became apparent I was going to do this. This is not a group problem - this is a person-to-person problem. > c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") > collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that > it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a > deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance > after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody > need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. Well, one way to do it is tell us who! I don't see anything wrong with trying to contact someone on the list via the list if email fails. The number of possible *holes* that email can fall into are more numerous than providers would like to admit. You never know - there might be someone on the list who knows the person and can fill you in to other important info - he when on holiday, he died - oh, all sorts of things can happen 8-) > Of course I have no proof of the above but from the short experience I > had here, I think that the problem exhists as opposed to the "openess" > of other American collecting groups like, for example, the radio > collecting community which has been VERY helpful with me and other > "foreigners" to buy and export stuff from the USA and CANADA (what about > the stuff you ARE importing from overseas then?). Well, I don't know what it would cost to ship to England. I don't think it is a "foreigners" thing - just cost and hassle. You could have one of your radio friends get the part and ship it to you. That would satisfy both parties. > I think that if you think I am wrong the best way to demonstrate it, if > you care, is not with words but with facts. I noticed that you used "foreigner" a lot. I would assume this was impressed upon you from some private email as I have never, to my recollection, seen it used in this group. You might want to expand the explaination - either here in public or in private email. BC From timolmst at cyberramp.net Sat Jun 21 10:08:30 1997 From: timolmst at cyberramp.net (Tim Olmstead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Mark 8 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970621100742.260f19ba@mailhost.cyberramp.net> >Actually a 8ksram and a 8kprom would do it. Actualy what I had in mind was for the EPROM to copy itself into RAM and then switch itself out. THat way, you could have as much, or little, in ROM as you want, and not loos any RAM. >That this is slow enough you could use the EEprom for sram! (the slow parts >was 20us and the real fast one was 10us (single byte instruction). I believe that the fast one was 12.5us wasn't it? That is what I have. > >The real annoying part is capturing all the muxed status and syncing it. > If you've ever done anything with an i960, this is duck soup. >Making the front pannel logic is the real work, it wouldn't be right without >the FP! > My original 8008 system had a home-brew front panel. I would GLADLY do without that and just drop in a monitor ROM this time. >> What do ya think? > >Tim, your a sick puppy. THANK YOU!!!! > Tim Olmstead timolmst@cyberramp.net From william at ans.net Sat Jun 21 10:20:57 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706211520.AA17490@interlock.ans.net> > As I remember the 4004 was actually Intels first micro-cpu and I don't > know of any commercial product that used them - but I don't know > everything. Any product types and names? Fair Radio Sales had 4004 boards for many years (they have not been in the catalog for quite a few years now), so someone used them. For what, I do not know... William Donzelli william@ans.net From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 21 10:44:25 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? Message-ID: <199706211544.AA28784@world.std.com> > >c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") > >collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that > >it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a > >deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance > >after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody > >need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. There is the matter of customs which many americans have little experience with. I sent a floppy to someone in canada and despite it being our neighbor the customs paper was amazing! I was told it's worse if there is a transaction involved. Allison From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 21 10:53:48 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? References: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> <33AB8416.7058@rain.org> <33ABAEFA.1044@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33ABF90C.5C6D@rain.org> e.tedeschi wrote: > > Marvin wrote: > > > > > In almost all cases, I find it MUCH better to ask about something > > perceived as a problem rather than let it simmer and finally boil out of > > control. I am rather curious as to where, or perhaps how, your reaction > > developed. Banned from a list? I would sure hope not as I haven't even > > seen a hint of justification for that action. > > Well, to get more specific, I have the (perhaps wrong) feeling that: > > a) You are against collectors who collect for the historical importance > onyl and are not really worried if the item works or not (as long as all > the parts are in there and the thing can be made to work if and when > required). I have been ridiculized when I suggested this one way to go > about collecting. > I must have missed that post where you indicated you were ridiculed. As I said in my earlier post, not *everything* in the collection works but I do try to have as much as possible working. Working is not my criteria for saving machines as I have seen VERY little that cannot be repaired. As most of us have said, we collect to save stuff from going to the dump. > b) You are against collectors who want ot take out bits and pieces from > the systems in order to show them separately (but retaining and perhaps > even ehibiting the "crippled" item). I have been refused help in thsi > respect when it became apparent I was going to do this. > I gather you are talking about the 8008 and/or the 4004 microprocessors? I guess that is a matter of individual attitude. Just because an item is not complete, it wouldn't slow me down if I wanted to exhibit it. I take parts from different stuff all the time although I would much prefer to obtain the new parts if possible. > c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") > collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that > it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a > deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance > after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody > need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. > I haven't seen this except for some concern about the costs involved. As far as getting British computers, I would love to do that and don't mind trading. However my reluctance comes only from not having any idea of the cost involved. > Of course I have no proof of the above but from the short experience I > had here, I think that the problem exhists as opposed to the "openess" > of other American collecting groups like, for example, the radio > collecting community which has been VERY helpful with me and other > "foreigners" to buy and export stuff from the USA and CANADA (what about > the stuff you ARE importing from overseas then?). > Also, I think you are being a bit broad with your use of the word "you." There are flaky people in every activity I have ever seen, and I doubt that this one is any different. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 21 12:15:40 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <199706211544.AA28784@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jun 21, 97 11:44:25 am Message-ID: <9706211615.AA10982@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1465 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970621/c0640015/attachment-0001.ksh From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 11:50:58 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? References: Message-ID: <33AC0672.1966@ndirect.co.uk> Jeff Hellige wrote: > > On 21-Jun-97, e.tedeschi wrote: > > >c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") > >collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that > >it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a > >deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance > >after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody > >need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. > > I think in this case, the thing that chases people away is the sheer cost > of shipping these items overseas. Most of it is fairly heavy, and in my > experiece of shipping just within in U.S., can be quite costly to ship just > about anywhere. At one point I was working on a deal with a gentleman in > Australia to get a C-16 with a a lot of original cassette software from him, > but he eventually backed out because of the shipping cost, and this was with a > very small system. Unless it was quite a rare system, or something you wanted > quite badly, it wouldn't likely be worth the total cost, even if it didn't > cost anything to actually purchase the item. I myself wouldn't mind adding > some of the foreign systems to my collection, but don't for the reasons above. > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 This can't be true as the cost of carriage is always beared by the recipient (in this case me). Also I found that if you don't want the stuff quickly (read airmail) it can be surprising reasonable. enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 11:55:25 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) References: Message-ID: <33AC077D.23A3@ndirect.co.uk> Brett wrote: > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > > > > There's a UK company that used to advertise in the UK version of the > > > > Elektor 4-5 years ago. They advertised the TI9900, NS32032 and other > > > > odd CPUs. > > > You could probably go buy a TI99/4a from a thrift store for a few bucks > > > and rip the TI9900 out of it and save a couple bucks off of what Elektor > > > probably sells them for. > > > > Oh, thank you for the suggestion BUT I have SEVEN TI99/4A(s). MYproblem > > is the 4004 and the 8008 ! > > I thought the 8008 was developed to go into a terminal. And then the > original *user* decided against using it so Intel started hawking it > as a micro-cpu. It must hav made it into SOMETHING that was not a > computer. Someone mentioned thr front panel of a DEC but it must > have been used in some terminals. Anybody know if and which? > > As I remember the 4004 was actually Intels first micro-cpu and I don't > know of any commercial product that used them - but I don't know > everything. Any product types and names? > > BC Well, the 4004 for actually designed by Intel for the Japanese firm BUSICOM who wanted to use it (and actually did) in one of their desktop calculators (I will find the model number presently and post it soon). They (Busicom) could have owned the Microprocessor patent but they decided to sell back to Intel all the other rights to research and so Intel dominated the early market. So there enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 12:21:15 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article)] Message-ID: <33AC0D8B.3B0A@ndirect.co.uk> Just by coincidence here is an example I have just received just now (there have been more before I started this debate; I don't that I am paranoid, there is definetely something in this group which is (generally speaking): a) against "displays" (pulling out bits to display etc.) b) Against shipping overseas (cost is no problem as is paid by the recipient) It took my some four e-mail messages to get to this message enclosed here. See what I mean? enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Subject: Re: Altairs (was RE: Collector Article) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:49:49 -0400 Size: 1475 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970621/3d438506/attachment-0001.mht From scott at saskatoon.com Sat Jun 21 12:14:14 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Commodore Plus/4 w/ 1541] Message-ID: <33AC0BE6.1D1FA32F@saskatoon.com> I found this on comp.emulators.cbm ttfn srw -------------- next part -------------- Skipped content of type message/news From scott at saskatoon.com Sat Jun 21 12:15:58 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: [Fwd: C65 - The 2nd] Message-ID: <33AC0C4E.A4279F9@saskatoon.com> Also found this in comp.emulators.cbm ttfn srw -------------- next part -------------- Skipped content of type message/news From djenner at halcyon.com Sat Jun 21 12:43:58 1997 From: djenner at halcyon.com (Dave Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? References: <9706211615.AA10982@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33AC12DE.CBD13B7@halcyon.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > I sent a floppy to someone in canada and despite it being our neighbor the > > customs paper was amazing! I was told it's worse if there is a transaction > > involved. > > Was I that one??? I'm still searching for that Compupro RAM23 > manual for you, Allison - I know it's here somewhere!!! (Said as he looks > at a wall stacked with boxes and boxes of documentation...) > > I've had numerous 8" floppies and 7- and 9-track tapes siezed by US Customs > over the years. Their reasoning? If they can't read them, they > can't verify that there isn't anything illegal on them. Besides, > nobody has 8" floppies or open-reel tape drives on "home" computers... > > Tim Shoppa, TRIUMF theory group | Internet: shoppa@triumf.ca > TRIUMF, Canada's National Meson Facility | Voice: 604-222-1047 loc 6446 > 4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS | FAX: 604-222-1074 > University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA V6T 2A3 I just sent a DEC Rainbow memory card to the Netherlands. On the customs label I put: "gift", "no value", and "obsolete computer card". We'll see if that gets it through without a hassle. All of these are true--except to a classic computer collector! Dave From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sat Jun 21 15:48:20 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? References: <33AC0672.1966@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33AC3E14.3170@unix.aardvarkol.com> e.tedeschi wrote: > This can't be true as the cost of carriage is always beared by the > recipient (in this case me). Also I found that if you don't want the > stuff quickly (read airmail) it can be surprising reasonable. Enrico, True, but it is still a hassle to ship internationally, and it is a lot harder to recoup anything if there is a problem, even if shipping to Canada from the U.S. Also, as a long time user of Usenet, I've noticed that it isn't only those on this side of the Atlantic who don't care to ship overseas...many a for-sale post from Europe states that they wish to ship only within the same general area. Take the post that was just forwarded into this group about the C-65 for sale. As many people can vouch, I for one routinely send stuff to people for just the cost of shipping, and that includes friends overseas. For the most part though, I have had few things I've put up for grabs that I've wanted to get rid of that anyone that anyone outside of the U.S. has thought worth the money and effort to make a deal on. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.goecities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 13:49:42 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? References: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> <33AB8416.7058@rain.org> <33ABAEFA.1044@ndirect.co.uk> <33ABF90C.5C6D@rain.org> Message-ID: <33AC2246.1538@ndirect.co.uk> Marvin wrote: > I haven't seen this except for some concern about the costs involved. > As far as getting British computers, I would love to do that and don't > mind trading. However my reluctance comes only from not having any idea > of the cost involved. If you are not in a hurry SURFACE MAIL is surprisingly cheap (but it will take about two months) > Also, I think you are being a bit broad with your use of the word > "you." There are flaky people in every activity I have ever seen, and I > doubt that this one is any different. You are right there. I am sorry but I did not mean any offence. I should have added that I was generalizing BUT I had the impression that this group a more than a fair share of them...and whats more they might have all the rights to be "conservative" with your heritage. However then they should not complain when something similar happens to them. Agreed? -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 13:43:18 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? References: <199706211544.AA28784@world.std.com> Message-ID: <33AC20C6.602D@ndirect.co.uk> Allison J Parent wrote: > There is the matter of customs which many americans have little experience > with. I accept that....but you are such a big country. Isn't it about time you start looking outside and try to understand other cultures? (no offence meant) -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 21 13:19:50 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970621141828.006a8f88@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 06:43 PM 6/21/97 +0000, you wrote: >Allison J Parent wrote: > >> There is the matter of customs which many americans have little experience >> with. >I accept that....but you are such a big country. Isn't it about time you >start looking outside and try to understand other cultures? (no offence >meant) >-- >================================================================ >Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. >tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile >website >================================================================ >visit Brighton: How quaint. A culture TROLL in a classic computer mailing list. Perhaps you were looking for alt.usa-sucks. At least the subject header now fits. James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 14:59:35 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? References: <3.0.32.19970621141828.006a8f88@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <33AC32A7.2CC3@ndirect.co.uk> James Carter wrote: > > At 06:43 PM 6/21/97 +0000, you wrote: > >Allison J Parent wrote: > > > >> There is the matter of customs which many americans have little experience > >> with. > >I accept that....but you are such a big country. Isn't it about time you > >start looking outside and try to understand other cultures? (no offence > >meant) > >-- > >================================================================ > >Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > >tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > >website > >================================================================ > >visit Brighton: > > How quaint. A culture TROLL in a classic computer mailing list. > Perhaps you were looking for alt.usa-sucks. > At least the subject header now fits. > > James > jscarter@worldnet.att.net Is "culture" banned from this site then? (We are getting there in the end....it's a CULTURE clash, is it?) -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 21 14:07:14 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? Message-ID: <199706211907.AA23198@world.std.com> > > There is the matter of customs which many americans have little experien > > with. > I accept that....but you are such a big country. Isn't it about time you > start looking outside and try to understand other cultures? (no offence > meant) I worked for several companies that was very good in that respect, Japanese and European. I did exchange information and material on a very regular basis however, it was another person in shipping that took care of details of getting it there. AS an engineer the machanics of those transactions were an inpediment to doing the work! In short you are confusing the mechanics of transaction with cultural interaction. I have had only on case where I got something for the shipping cost and depite care in packaging by the shipper a s100 box was received severely bent! Over a certain weight crating is a must it would appear. I don't have the resources to crate a machine. For me save for that one long distance transaction other than for a floppy, a board or paper/books(small under 2kg) to strictly local transactions withing the driving distance of my old toyota pickup truck. As is, that can prove difficult! Allison From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Jun 21 14:48:10 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: References: <33AB6B7D.5283@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970621124810.00c4d364@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:04 AM 6/21/97 -0500, you wrote: > >As I remember the 4004 was actually Intels first micro-cpu and I don't >know of any commercial product that used them - but I don't know >everything. Any product types and names? The 4004 (1 part of a four chip set) was designed for a desk calculator. It was widely marketed overseas, but I seem to be brain-farting on the name at the moment... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From scott at saskatoon.com Sat Jun 21 14:50:58 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33AC32A7.2CC3@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: Okay, I've been watching this thread with some disgust for a while now. I'm not really sure if i should even bother replying, but i guess i will anyway. It seems to me that the root of this whole thread is that some people don't agree with other people. Is this stating the obvious? Maybe, but it hasn't been addressed. It's a fact in a world as big as ours, with people as diverse as they are, that not everybody is going to agree with everything you think or believe. This in and of itself is not a problem. What is a problem is when I start thinking less of another person because they don't believe the same as I do. I think an example is in order. I have strong religious beliefs. Most of the people I work with don't have the same beliefs that I do. This doesn't mean that they are any less valuable as humans. It doesn't mean that I am superior to them. It doesn't mean that I should respect them less because they think differently than I do. I might even try to convince another person to join my religion/sect/denomination/whatever. If he/she joins me, great. If he/she doesn't, it doesn't mean that he/she is any less of a person or deserves any less respect because of it. Okay, the example is long-winded but I think it applies directly to Classic Computer Collecting. Most of us have political, religous, or moral beliefs. Most of the people on this list have beliefs about Classic Computer Collecting as well. I'm sure for many on this list, computer beliefs rank right up there with the others. It's only natural that a person who believes a classic computer should be kept in operational condition will react negatively to a another wishing to remove the CPU from a functional computer, rendering it non-functional. This person may even try to convince the other to not do it. Does this mean that either of these people is superior to the other? No. They simply believe different things. Back to the religion thing again... If I was giving something away, and a person wanted it to use it for some purpose which I am 'religiously' opposed to (I can't think of a good example off hand) I would probably try to find someone else to take the item. I think that this should be my right. (I do have the right to practice my religion, don't I?) I hope you can see how this applies directly to the computer issue. This is getting to be a much longer email than I had intended, and I could keep going on, but the short of it is: We all have our reasons for collecting (I think someone already said that in this thread) and we shouldn't think we are superior to another because they think differently. This also goes the other way. We shouldn't feel attacked just because someone else doesn't believe the same as we do and maybe even tries to convince us to believe the same as them. I just deleted another three lines... I really should stop here. This mailling list is supposed to be fun. Let's keep it that way. ttfn srw (Sorry about using 'they' and 'them' in singular context. I'm choosing politically correct over grammatically correct :-) From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 21 14:56:21 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33ad30a1.3060915@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On 21-Jun-97, e.tedeschi wrote: >c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") >collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that >it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a >deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance >after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody >need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. I'm probably guilty of ignoring "foreign requests" for equipment because of my perception of the VERY high costs involved. I have a friend who was contacted by a gentleman from the Netherlands regarding a TI-99/4A system my friend was willing to sell. The deal fell through because shipping would be >$200! If you want something I have, I'd be happy to sell it to you but for two problems: cost and I don't have much worthwhile. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 17:21:04 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) References: <33AB6B7D.5283@ndirect.co.uk> <3.0.1.32.19970621124810.00c4d364@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <33AC53D0.7007@ndirect.co.uk> Jim Willing wrote: > > At 07:04 AM 6/21/97 -0500, you wrote: > > > >As I remember the 4004 was actually Intels first micro-cpu and I don't > >know of any commercial product that used them - but I don't know > >everything. Any product types and names? > > The 4004 (1 part of a four chip set) was designed for a desk calculator. > It was widely marketed overseas, but I seem to be brain-farting on the name > at the moment... > > -jim Yes, it is the Busicom 141-PF. You can see a picture of it at: enrico ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 21 17:30:01 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? References: Message-ID: <33AC55E9.5F3B@ndirect.co.uk> Scott Walde wrote: > Back to the religion thing again... If I was giving something away, and a > person wanted it to use it for some purpose which I am 'religiously' > opposed to (I can't think of a good example off hand) I would probably try > to find someone else to take the item. I think that this should be my > right. (I do have the right to practice my religion, don't I?) I hope > you can see how this applies directly to the computer issue. So now the problem is clear...notwithstanding all the previous declaration to the contrary THERE IS a problem of someone being opposed to some other use (and possibly location) of the stuff. I think it is only fair that it is so. What is NOT fair is to try to hide it and find other excuses like...too difficult to pack... to expensive to be worth bothering with it....too much paperwork etc. Ain't we all in the same passion? If not then I would rather not be here. See what I mean? (is this too much cultural for someone?) enrico From marvin at rain.org Sat Jun 21 17:19:14 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Vector 3-5030 References: <33AAA583.4C08@xlisper.mv.com> <33AAF037.F01@rain.org> <33AAF6F1.3004@xlisper.mv.com> <33AAFEB5.3C3D@rain.org> Message-ID: <33AC5362.301D@rain.org> David Betz wrote: > > Does anyone know anything about the Vector 3-5030 from Vector Graphics? > Is it considered a collectable? I recently found one at the town dump > and brought it home. It displays some sort of ROM monitor screen when I just had a phone call from an acquaintance who used to work for Vector Graphic. If you have any questions, I can forward them to him. I always find it nice to be able to talk with people that actually worked for the companies who built these classics! From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sat Jun 21 20:36:31 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Printers and Finds of the Week References: <33A4C12B.203A@goldrush.com> <33A4E3CE.44EE@rain.org> Message-ID: <33AC819F.20A3@unix.aardvarkol.com> I found an interesting printer today. It is an SR2000, produced by Sears Roebuck & Company, or at least it has their name on it. According to it's test printout, the date stamp on it is 9/25/86. What makes the printer interesting is that it is a dual-interface model, with both a standard centronics interface, as well as what appears to be the 6pin mini-din for the Commodore 8bit serial interface. Were there any other interfaces that used that connector that it might be? I've found replacement ribbons for it on the web, but no spec info. It's a dot matrix printer with between 7 and 9 pins, and cost me a total of $4 and works great. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.goecities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From zmerch at northernway.net Sat Jun 21 18:51:00 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970621195058.009995a0@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, e.tedeschi happened to blather: >Scott Walde wrote: While I fully agree with what Scott wrote in his (admittedly longwinded :-) post, I'm not sure if it was stated simply enough.... >> Back to the religion thing again... If I was giving something away, and a >> person wanted it to use it for some purpose which I am 'religiously' >> opposed to (I can't think of a good example off hand) I would probably try >> to find someone else to take the item. I think that this should be my >> right. (I do have the right to practice my religion, don't I?) I hope >> you can see how this applies directly to the computer issue. To put it in 4 words, I believe Scott is saying: "Live and let live." >So now the problem is clear...notwithstanding all the previous >declaration to the contrary THERE IS a problem of someone being opposed >to some other use (and possibly location) of the stuff. I think it is >only fair that it is so. If the problem is clear to you... could you explain it to me? My mind is still dizzy from all this... :-) (Oh, and BTW, would you mind not yelling?) >What is NOT fair is to try to hide it and find other excuses like...too >difficult to pack... to expensive to be worth bothering with it....too >much paperwork etc. Ain't we all in the same passion? If not then I >would rather not be here. Personally, I had no idea that they still "shipped" (pun intended) things on "the Big Pond." I would not have even thought to look for something other than airmail, and I can attest (as I live on the Canada-US border) that Customs can be a right pain in the behind. >See what I mean? (is this too much cultural for someone?) Well, no. Enrico, I do have one question: Are you waiting for someone to say to you: "You're right?" If so, I don't believe you've presented enough evidence to us to judge whether or not you are. I can say that several of the "points" you've tried to make have been very vague and could be interpreted a number of different ways. I've noticed that several people on this list has tried to explain what they percieve to be going on, and I readily admit that I don't know enough about what's going on. However, one thing I do know very well is communication, and there does seem to be a major miscommunication problem here. I for one, would like to see you stay with the list, and yes, there might be the occasional twit on the list as well, but I'm on 5-6 lists (two of which I run), and I must say that I've seen fewer twits on this list than on my others. I have several friends I've met thru e-mail all over the world (and yes, including the U.K... ;-) and I will say that I was offended with you're insistance that this was a "foriegner" issue... This is called the "World Wide Web" not the "U.S. Web." I can also guarantee that no matter what country you visit, you *will* find at least one twit living there. Guaranteed. Enrico, if you can clearly explain your position (with examples, if necessary) to me in private e-mail, I would be more than glad to help you out and would even be glad to act as intermediary between you and anyone else with which there may be a communication problem. Otherwise, I'll go back lurking and I will have no more to say about this thread. (I promise!!! ;^> ) Just my tuppence worth, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From maynard at jmg.com Sat Jun 21 19:17:01 1997 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:30 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33AC55E9.5F3B@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: OK folks, I'm a lurker. I've never posted, and I feel ashamed that this message will be my first impression for the rest of this lists members. Enrico, will you please stop whining and say something relevant to this list? I'm a busy man, responsible for an elderly parent and lotsa lotsa expensive Sun hardware... my bosses give me little time to play. I'm here to read about Sym's & Kim's, ELF-II's, Altairs, LSI-11's, TRS-80's... in short, all the computers I grew up with as a kid and have lost because of foolish youth and multiple cross country moves. Can we *please* get back to the fun stuff? PS - when I was fifteen I built a PDP-11 from scrap parts out of DEC dumpsters... I'm sure you can do the same. I've seen this junk at flea markets, in commercial basements left by tennants long forgotten, at garage sales, in open dumps, on the sidewalk on trash day, and still find myself washing coffee grinds off my tee shirts, after a bit of dumpster diving, holding some neat piece of old junk I remember. Go get it like everyone else, by getting dirty and in the thick of it. Stop making an ass of yourself by suggesting that your collector collegues ought to go out of their way to help you for whatever reason. It's simple, if someone wants to help you they will. If not, they won't. If you want to ensure overseas delivery, may I suggest you attempt a business transaction with the seller, and offer him/her a healthy profit? This is one of the best ways of ensuring prompt delivery on your terms. Respectfully, J. Maynard Gelinas On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 22:30:01 +0000 > From: "e.tedeschi" > Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Why? > > Scott Walde wrote: > > > Back to the religion thing again... If I was giving something away, and a > > person wanted it to use it for some purpose which I am 'religiously' > > opposed to (I can't think of a good example off hand) I would probably try > > to find someone else to take the item. I think that this should be my > > right. (I do have the right to practice my religion, don't I?) I hope > > you can see how this applies directly to the computer issue. > > So now the problem is clear...notwithstanding all the previous > declaration to the contrary THERE IS a problem of someone being opposed > to some other use (and possibly location) of the stuff. I think it is > only fair that it is so. > > What is NOT fair is to try to hide it and find other excuses like...too > difficult to pack... to expensive to be worth bothering with it....too > much paperwork etc. Ain't we all in the same passion? If not then I > would rather not be here. > > See what I mean? (is this too much cultural for someone?) > > enrico > From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sat Jun 21 19:31:52 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: References: <33AC55E9.5F3B@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970622013152.006859c0@post.keme.co.uk> Are we not loosing the meaning of this group. Things seen to have got out of hand, and twisted around, the original meaning lost!! Change the subject. Steve Emulator BBS 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From josh at netins.net Sat Jun 21 19:41:17 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Printers and Finds of the Week Message-ID: <199706220041.TAA04906@ins6.netins.net> >I found an interesting printer today. It is an SR2000, produced by >Sears Roebuck & Company, or at least it has their name on it. According >to it's test printout, the date stamp on it is 9/25/86. I recently found a Sears Roebuck & Company SR3000, which is oddly enough a RGB/Composite monitor made for the commodore line? Who knows. It even has a speaker in it! Picture is really nice. Made around the same date! Got it for only $10! If I don't use it for an old computer, it is a great way to view the camcorder stuff! Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From djenner at halcyon.com Sat Jun 21 19:50:36 1997 From: djenner at halcyon.com (Dave Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Why? References: Message-ID: <33AC76DC.E6D8081D@halcyon.com> Although I don't necessary agree with the reason for the posting below, I do agree that I would like to see classic computer relevant postings in this group. I have subscribed for about 2 weeks now, and I am finding that the signal-to-noise ratio tends to be low. I have especially been disappointed with many postings that contain unnecessary profanity. But, I just installed Netscape Communicator 4.01 whose Messenger component provides reasonably flexible mail filters. I now have quite a few filters running that instantly delete any mail with profanity, and a few other selective rules, too. So, flame on! I'll never see them now! But, please continue with good, relevant classic computer postings! Dave J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > > OK folks, I'm a lurker. I've never posted, and I feel ashamed > that this message will be my first impression for the rest of this lists > members. Enrico, will you please stop whining and say something relevant > to this list? I'm a busy man, responsible for an elderly parent and lotsa > lotsa expensive Sun hardware... my bosses give me little time to play. > > I'm here to read about Sym's & Kim's, ELF-II's, Altairs, LSI-11's, > TRS-80's... in short, all the computers I grew up with as a kid and have > lost because of foolish youth and multiple cross country moves. Can we > *please* get back to the fun stuff? > > PS - when I was fifteen I built a PDP-11 from scrap parts out of > DEC dumpsters... I'm sure you can do the same. I've seen this junk at > flea markets, in commercial basements left by tennants long forgotten, at > garage sales, in open dumps, on the sidewalk on trash day, and still find > myself washing coffee grinds off my tee shirts, after a bit of dumpster > diving, holding some neat piece of old junk I remember. Go get it like > everyone else, by getting dirty and in the thick of it. Stop making an > ass of yourself by suggesting that your collector collegues ought to go > out of their way to help you for whatever reason. It's simple, if someone > wants to help you they will. If not, they won't. If you want to ensure > overseas delivery, may I suggest you attempt a business transaction with > the seller, and offer him/her a healthy profit? This is one of the best > ways of ensuring prompt delivery on your terms. > > Respectfully, > J. Maynard Gelinas > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 22:30:01 +0000 > > From: "e.tedeschi" > > Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Subject: Re: Why? > > > > Scott Walde wrote: > > > > > Back to the religion thing again... If I was giving something away, and a > > > person wanted it to use it for some purpose which I am 'religiously' > > > opposed to (I can't think of a good example off hand) I would probably try > > > to find someone else to take the item. I think that this should be my > > > right. (I do have the right to practice my religion, don't I?) I hope > > > you can see how this applies directly to the computer issue. > > > > So now the problem is clear...notwithstanding all the previous > > declaration to the contrary THERE IS a problem of someone being opposed > > to some other use (and possibly location) of the stuff. I think it is > > only fair that it is so. > > > > What is NOT fair is to try to hide it and find other excuses like...too > > difficult to pack... to expensive to be worth bothering with it....too > > much paperwork etc. Ain't we all in the same passion? If not then I > > would rather not be here. > > > > See what I mean? (is this too much cultural for someone?) > > > > enrico > > From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sat Jun 21 23:04:52 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Printers and Finds of the Week References: <199706220041.TAA04906@ins6.netins.net> Message-ID: <33ACA464.E20@unix.aardvarkol.com> Josh M. Nutzman wrote: > I recently found a Sears Roebuck & Company SR3000, which is oddly enough > a RGB/Composite monitor made for the commodore line? Who knows. It even > has a speaker in it! Picture is really nice. Made around the same date! > Got it for only $10! That's interesting. This is the first time I've actually seen real computer stuff with the Sears Roebuck name on it, though I knew they marketed thier own version of Pong a while back. If it's RGB/composite with internal speakers, it would match the Commodore-brand monitors in fucntionality. I wonder what else they marketed in this little 'SR' series of computer stuff? > If I don't use it for an old computer, it is a great way to view the > camcorder stuff! Yes, I use my Amiga 1080 monitor for my camcorder or VCR on occasion, as well as using it as the monitor for my Apple ][+ since it's the only composite-input monitor I currently have. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.goecities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jun 21 21:24:38 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Printers and Finds of the Week Message-ID: <970621222437_-1294689156@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-21 21:41:21 EDT, jeff h. wrote < I found an interesting printer today. It is an SR2000, produced by >Sears Roebuck & Company, or at least it has their name on it. According > to it's test printout, the date stamp on it is 9/25/86. What makes the > printer interesting is that it is a dual-interface model, with both a > standard centronics interface, as well as what appears to be the 6pin >mini-din for the Commodore 8bit serial interface. Were there any other >interfaces that used that connector that it might be? I've found >replacement ribbons for it on the web, but no spec info. It's a dot >matrix printer with between 7 and 9 pins, and cost me a total of $4 and > works great. > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > -- >> back around 1991 i had bought the sr3000 model. it's an old 9pin dot matrix printer, and for the most part, seems to be compatible with the epson fx-85. i was able to find replacement ribbons for it at sears also. i was kinda thrilled to see it had a serial port, but then again, it was only for C= models. if anyone needs more info, i still have the owner's manual for mine. as a side note, i had it plugged into my laser128 running GEOS, the mac like interface that ran on the machine but never could get the sr3000 to work, the only driver GEOS had was for the sr2000. david. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sat Jun 21 22:59:11 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Saturday's Finds and a source in Central CA References: <199706210702.AAA01753@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33ACA310.7661@goldrush.com> I finally attended a almost 'near-by' used computer store's "warehouse sale" and was somewhat impressed. The sale is held Saturday mornings in an old nursery greenhouse about 5 miles east of Lodi on Highway 12 (in California) Almost every table is covered with equipment, a good portion seems to be discards from local school districts and others are from who knows where. The good and bad news is much of it has had some share of the elements and are sold as-is, but they are priced to clear. (they were not "out in the open" like some machines you have reported, but almost). The store keeps most of the more-modern usable stuff (PC cards, motherboards, printers, etc.) and leaves behind a lot of Commodore PETs, 64s, Apples, old PCs, etc. Must have seen about 1/2 dozen apple ///s in varying states, even more apple ][s, (from some ][ pluses to a Platinum ][e w/keypad and a couple ][cs), plenty of drives (1541, apple and old hard drives; looking for an older hard drive? make a 'look for' list ready). Lots of monitors (condition unknown as many were from a repair shop that closed; also alot of composite Commodore monitors - 1702s and CM141s). Many PC enclosures (not my area so I didn't look too hard, did see look at a Commodore PC clone though (figures), motherboard still there, but no cards or drives, some older pulled cards in boxes. I did notice at least three Osborne computers, the one I opened to look at was a later model as it didn't have that tiny screen in the center but what looked like an 8" display. Bunch of Jasmine Hard Disk cases (external, backpacks, and clip-on drives) and such for people needing power/cases for projects (some with drives still in em). Also various cables (bunch of IEEE-488), power supplies (commodore 64 was in abundance) some books and other micellany. I didn't see any minis there, but you never know... We came out with: - Educator 64 (a Commodore 64 in a PET enclosure w/monochrome 14" display) computer is dead but it uses a standard 64, so no problem there. ;> - Commodore LP2031 PET/CBM IEEE-488 single drive (a IEEE-488 drive in a 1541 case) seems to be ill but much of the electonics and all mechanicals match the 41, no problem! - Jasmine Removable 45 drive (I am assuming a Syquest 44mb drive, it looks similar) still have to get a cartridge to test, but seems clean and ok. - Commodore 1541-II w/power supply & cable (so far so good) - C= Brick Power Supply (light colored one. still untested) - Sea Wolf & Clowns cartridges for the VIC-20. - 'Commodore' paddles and 'Commodore' joystick - An AC 'muffin' fan (works, now cooling the BBS!) - 6 Commodore books (including three nifty Hofhacker ones published by Elcomp) I left a whole bunch of other VIC & 64 books behind cost $30.00 (I could have walked out with more for the same price, but I was being good) Warehouse Sale: 10400 Highway 12, about 5 miles east of Lodi, 8 am to Noon on Saturdays (if you do go, let them klnow that Larry, the Commodore guy told ya about it!) The computer place is: Allen's To Go, in Lockeford, (209) 727-0477 -- I picked up at a couple thrifts some (soon to be) blank disks, the prices are cheaper than MEI/Micro's bulk pricing, $1 for a box of 10+ 5.25" DS/DD... Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From danjo at xnet.com Sat Jun 21 22:07:20 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Why? And Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > > OK folks, I'm a lurker. I've never posted, and I feel ashamed that this > message will be my first impression for the rest of this lists members. > Enrico, will you please stop whining and say something relevant to this > list? I'm a busy man, responsible for an elderly parent and lotsa lotsa > expensive Sun hardware... my bosses give me little time to play. Let me know the next time you guys *clean out the stockroom!!!!* I am sure you can have some of that *expensive* Sun stuff end up as *worhtless to repair* items after I get done looking it over 8-) > I'm here to read about Sym's & Kim's, ELF-II's, Altairs, LSI-11's, > TRS-80's... in short, all the computers I grew up with as a kid and have > lost because of foolish youth and multiple cross country moves. Can we > *please* get back to the fun stuff? Well, if you want, I could tell you all about my KIM-1 and SYM-1, but ya know, it's not like having one 8-) > PS - when I was fifteen I built a PDP-11 from scrap parts out of DEC > dumpsters... I'm sure you can do the same. I've seen this junk at flea > markets, in commercial basements left by tennants long forgotten, at > garage sales, in open dumps, on the sidewalk on trash day, and still find > myself washing coffee grinds off my tee shirts, after a bit of dumpster > diving, holding some neat piece of old junk I remember. Ahhh, the joys of diving! We could probably get a pretty long thread out of this subject! However, most stories will end up being about the leavings of bodily functions than about neat things we have found 8-( On that topic tho - I got several radios that way, and all my CGA screens where arrived at thru various *scrounging runs* in the dead of night. I can always find some little hunk of an IBM PC that way. And 8" disks. And broken printers - one of my other hobbies is robotics, and you can't beat a printer that got tossed for parts 8-) You should also try to stay informed of regional repair centers. I used to live near a Radio Shack repair center. If they got something repaired but the person never came back for it or didn't want to pay that much for the repair - it went on auction for the repair cost. Most other repair centers do that too. Also keep an eye peeled for companies that are going under. Like J. says, check the closets and basements. Just wait until they move out and then search the dumpster, then afterward, call the landlord and ask to see the office space *for rent* and see if they left anything behind. Don't get excited but say you have a friend/relative who might be able to use *that thing* and pick it up for free right then and there. The guy/gal thinks they are *bonding* the client/sales connection - HA! One problem around here is - if it has a waste sticker on it - it is property of the local government 8-( (So I use the *Midnight Run*) Better than having to landfill it - right? BC From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 21 22:01:38 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33AC55E9.5F3B@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > What is NOT fair is to try to hide it and find other excuses like...too > difficult to pack... to expensive to be worth bothering with it....too > much paperwork etc. Ain't we all in the same passion? If not then I > would rather not be here. But those ARE valid reasons! > See what I mean? (is this too much cultural for someone?) No, but its too much off-topic. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 21 22:00:02 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > Okay, I've been watching this thread with some disgust for a while now. > I'm not really sure if i should even bother replying, but i guess i will > anyway. Ok, this has gotten way out of hand. Can we get back on topic? I joined a fucking listserve so I wouldn't have to put up with off-topic shit. Bill, could you start doing a little regulating please? PS. No offense meant to Scott. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From william at ans.net Sat Jun 21 22:43:17 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: (not) Why? And Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706220343.AA02635@interlock.ans.net> > Ahhh, the joys of diving! We could probably get a pretty long thread out > of this subject! And why not! It is better than all of the complaining lately... Best Dumpster treasure: Cray Y/MP boards. I did not get the goodies, but a buddy did. Apparently one had been decommissioned (and probably sold for scrap), but many of the spare parts were not included in the sale, so they were just thrown away. My personal best was finding a PDP-8/e that was literally thrown away, as in _dropped_ out of the building into the waiting container below. It was missing the bus loads card, so I could not test it. A few years later I found a proper board, and the machine worked with out a problem. DEC makes tough machines. William Donzelli william@ans.net From maynard at jmg.com Sat Jun 21 23:36:02 1997 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: [snip] > > expensive Sun hardware... my bosses give me little time to play. > > Let me know the next time you guys *clean out the stockroom!!!!* > I am sure you can have some of that *expensive* Sun stuff end up > as *worhtless to repair* items after I get done looking it over 8-) > Hehe. This stuff won't be thrown away for several years. However, there are a *lot* of sparc 1s, 2s, and Sun 3/xx equipment floating around out here. I just missed a sparc 2 base for $270 out at the M.I.T. flea two months ago - and I was there, like, at 9am start, and at the table within 15 minutes of opening. Damn! That sucked. Sparc 1s can be had as cheap as $70 bucks base. I know this isn't really on topic for people looking for 4 and 8 bit computers, but you have to admit these kinds of prices are significant considering what this box will do. Where I work has several Sparc 1s and IPC/IPX's floating around still in production. Most of them are bootp servers, X-Terms, or snmp log grabbers. It's amazing that a computer that old is still so useful. > > Well, if you want, I could tell you all about my KIM-1 and SYM-1, but > ya know, it's not like having one 8-) Yup. I seriously thought about the AIM deal that was floating around, but I have an opportunity for an original Apple II. Keyboard works, the system prom boots, but unfortunately he lost the disk controller. He still has the old full height 5 1/4" drive, however. This thing is quite dirty, and a few keys will have to be cleaned carefully with alchol, but it looks good. I'm curious to know if I need to find anything other than the floppy controller. Didn't Microsoft Basic come on a prom card? Or was that on the floppy controller card? Or was there at one point a mixed controller/BASIC card? This guy has the original Interger Basic... cool. > > > PS - when I was fifteen I built a PDP-11 from scrap parts out of DEC > > dumpsters... I'm sure you can do the same. I've seen this junk at flea > > markets, in commercial basements left by tennants long forgotten, at > > garage sales, in open dumps, on the sidewalk on trash day, and still find > > myself washing coffee grinds off my tee shirts, after a bit of dumpster > > diving, holding some neat piece of old junk I remember. > > Ahhh, the joys of diving! We could probably get a pretty long thread out > of this subject! However, most stories will end up being about the > leavings of bodily functions than about neat things we have found 8-( > On that topic tho - I got several radios that way, and all my CGA screens > where arrived at thru various *scrounging runs* in the dead of night. > I can always find some little hunk of an IBM PC that way. And 8" disks. > And broken printers - one of my other hobbies is robotics, and you can't > beat a printer that got tossed for parts 8-) You should also try to stay > informed of regional repair centers. I used to live near a Radio Shack > repair center. If they got something repaired but the person never came > back for it or didn't want to pay that much for the repair - it went on > auction for the repair cost. Most other repair centers do that too. > I can't believe anyone can find 8" disks wihtout having to special order them. What are you checking, sheet metal factories? Now, what are you using to drive the print step motors? Do you have an interface to a PC, or are you going to something more esoteric? Do you machine the skeleton, or build it from parts like an erector set? > Also keep an eye peeled for companies that are going under. Like J. says, > check the closets and basements. Just wait until they move out and then > search the dumpster, then afterward, call the landlord and ask to see the > office space *for rent* and see if they left anything behind. Don't get > excited but say you have a friend/relative who might be able to use > *that thing* and pick it up for free right then and there. The guy/gal > thinks they are *bonding* the client/sales connection - HA! I just dive the dumpsters, I'd rather not make a scene with some landlord. If it's in the trash, I figure it's public domain. Around here, poor folk (like I have been throughout much of my twenties) rely on trash scores for chairs, cheap tables, whatever. However, I live near Harvard U. and you have no *idea* what some of these students will thow away! And the computers... I have a friend that *just* collects 3b1's. > > One problem around here is - if it has a waste sticker on it - it is > property of the local government 8-( (So I use the *Midnight Run*) > Better than having to landfill it - right? > You know, I may have a dissenting view here, but I think some of this stuff *ought* to go in the landfill. Sure, it will get destroyed, but landfills will be our legacy 500 years from now. It would be wonderful for a few high quality specimens of every type of computer made to survive in museums, but we also want to give our future archaeologists some reasonable sample of system distribution geographically. Oh well, disagree if you like. Cheers, J. Maynard Gelinas From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 21 23:53:15 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> References: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33acaf26.1103312@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:11:36 +0000, you wrote: %What's wrong with this (virtual) "group" ??? % %Of all the collecting groups I belong to, this is the only one where my %(and I suppose other's) public (and private) requests for help have been %ignored and (worse) I suspect even opposed. It's a feature of newsgroups in general, and I suspect, also mailing-lists. In a mailing-list like this one, there're so many messages in one day that it's hard to keep track of them and to reply. Ben From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jun 22 00:21:22 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: "J. Maynard Gelinas"'s message of Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:36:02 -0400 (EDT) References: Message-ID: <199706220521.WAA23191@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "J. Maynard Gelinas" writes: > You know, I may have a dissenting view here, but I think some of > this stuff *ought* to go in the landfill. Sure, it will get destroyed, > but landfills will be our legacy 500 years from now. It would be > wonderful for a few high quality specimens of every type of computer made > to survive in museums, but we also want to give our future archaeologists > some reasonable sample of system distribution geographically. Oh well, > disagree if you like. Y'know, they don't just plonk the stuff down and spread a layer of dirt on top. They run it over with this nice bulldozer sort of thing that has steel wheels with cleats. Crunches the stuff up better. -Frank McConnell From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 21 12:00:18 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33ABAEFA.1044@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > Well, to get more specific, I have the (perhaps wrong) feeling that: > > a) You are against collectors who collect for the historical importance > onyl and are not really worried if the item works or not (as long as all > the parts are in there and the thing can be made to work if and when > required). I have been ridiculized when I suggested this one way to go > about collecting. > > b) You are against collectors who want ot take out bits and pieces from > the systems in order to show them separately (but retaining and perhaps > even ehibiting the "crippled" item). I have been refused help in thsi > respect when it became apparent I was going to do this. Enrico, who is "you" that you are referring to? You can't possibly mean the group collective, since we each think for ourselves. If you feel you have been slighted by some of us, why not send us personal e-mail so we can work it out without having to involve everyone. > c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") > collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that > it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a > deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance > after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody > need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. Enrico, you are WAY out of line here. This is entirely a self-conceived paranoid notion. There are many "foreigners" in this discussion group. Everyone is treated equally with respect. If you feel you are being singled out for criticism then you are mistaken. > I think that if you think I am wrong the best way to demonstrate it, if > you care, is not with words but with facts. I think you just need to drop this and get on with the discussion. I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but this is really leading no where. I think you should let yourself cool off and bit and then ask the questions you want answered again. Sometimes your messages get lost in all the clutter. Perhaps someone will have an answer for you the second time around. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at terra.cnct.com Sun Jun 22 01:25:33 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Mark 8 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970621100742.260f19ba@mailhost.cyberramp.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Tim Olmstead wrote: > If you've ever done anything with an i960, this is duck soup. Y'ever _made_ duck soup? Most 70s era micro projects are lots easier. Not counting getting all of those little lead pellets out of the duck. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From KFergason at aol.com Sun Jun 22 01:20:47 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Printers and Finds of the Week Message-ID: <970622022047_1721833393@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-21 21:41:21 EDT, you write: << I found an interesting printer today. It is an SR2000, produced by Sears Roebuck & Company, or at least it has their name on it. According >> I have one also, and have the manual somewhere if you need specific info. might take me a week or two to find it though. :-) Kelly KFergason@aol.com From gram at terra.cnct.com Sun Jun 22 01:30:40 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) In-Reply-To: <199706211233.FAA08606@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Olminkhof wrote: > keyboard 4k version, a CBM 3032 and a CBM 8032 hulk. I suspect they will > always be around because they are so hard to destroy. The case is very > solid. I found the "hulk" in a paddock, like some people find ancient cars! > I've never attempted to power this one up though. I take "paddock" is Strine for "junkyard", and open to the elements? -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 22 02:29:33 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: from "J. Maynard Gelinas" at Jun 22, 97 00:36:02 am Message-ID: <9706220629.AA11191@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2060 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970621/1bf4435f/attachment-0001.ksh From gram at terra.cnct.com Sun Jun 22 01:46:14 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33AC20C6.602D@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > There is the matter of customs which many americans have little experience > > with. > I accept that....but you are such a big country. Isn't it about time you > start looking outside and try to understand other cultures? (no offence > meant) Understanding other cultures is a piece of cake. Dealing with the bloody government import/export laws and customs duties is a different can of worms. Me, I'm for all borders open to all. Then again, I'm just a damned anarchist, so what do I know? -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 22 02:35:36 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Why? References: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk> <33acaf26.1103312@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33ACD5C8.7E31@ndirect.co.uk> Benedict Chong wrote: > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:11:36 +0000, you wrote: > > %What's wrong with this (virtual) "group" ??? > % > %Of all the collecting groups I belong to, this is the only one where > my > %(and I suppose other's) public (and private) requests for help have > been > %ignored and (worse) I suspect even opposed. > > It's a feature of newsgroups in general, and I suspect, also > mailing-lists. > > In a mailing-list like this one, there're so many messages in one day > that it's hard to keep track of them and to reply. > > Ben Now THAT is a sensible, informative answer. Thank you Ben. -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Sun Jun 22 01:45:34 1997 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) Message-ID: <199706220646.XAA00883@mx3.u.washington.edu> ---------- > From: Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) > Date: Sunday, June 22, 1997 4:30 PM > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Olminkhof wrote: > > keyboard 4k version, a CBM 3032 and a CBM 8032 hulk. I suspect they will > > always be around because they are so hard to destroy. The case is very > > solid. I found the "hulk" in a paddock, like some people find ancient cars! > > I've never attempted to power this one up though. > > I take "paddock" is Strine for "junkyard", and open to the elements? "paddock" is an english word for a place where animals graze. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 22 03:22:35 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Cocos Message-ID: <33ACE0CB.364D@ndirect.co.uk> Just to help me understand better...when you refer to Cocos, do you refer to the Tandy TRS-80 COlour COmputers? Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From gram at terra.cnct.com Sun Jun 22 02:32:45 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > away! And the computers... I have a friend that *just* collects 3b1's. What's he got to trade? That's my own personal favourite machine -- in my arrogant opinion the aesthetically finest machine ever made. (And I had my 3B1 for a couple of years before I went to work for Unisys at the old Convergent Technologies plant in San Jose). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at terra.cnct.com Sun Jun 22 02:35:13 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > You know, I may have a dissenting view here, but I think some of > this stuff *ought* to go in the landfill. Sure, it will get destroyed, > but landfills will be our legacy 500 years from now. It would be > wonderful for a few high quality specimens of every type of computer made > to survive in museums, but we also want to give our future archaeologists > some reasonable sample of system distribution geographically. Oh well, > disagree if you like. Those future archaeologists are going to have to pry my computers out of my cold dead hands. Well, that's their job. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From pcoad at crl.com Sun Jun 22 03:00:43 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > > > > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > > [snip] > > > > expensive Sun hardware... my bosses give me little time to play. > > > > Let me know the next time you guys *clean out the stockroom!!!!* > > I am sure you can have some of that *expensive* Sun stuff end up > > as *worhtless to repair* items after I get done looking it over 8-) > > > > Hehe. This stuff won't be thrown away for several years. > However, there are a *lot* of sparc 1s, 2s, and Sun 3/xx equipment > floating around out here. I just missed a sparc 2 base for $270 out at > the M.I.T. flea two months ago - and I was there, like, at 9am start, and > at the table within 15 minutes of opening. Damn! That sucked. Sparc 1s > can be had as cheap as $70 bucks base. I know this isn't really on topic > for people looking for 4 and 8 bit computers, but you have to admit these > kinds of prices are significant considering what this box will do. Where > I work has several Sparc 1s and IPC/IPX's floating around still in > production. Most of them are bootp servers, X-Terms, or snmp log > grabbers. It's amazing that a computer that old is still so useful. > Hey this is on topic! I like the 4 and 8 bit stuff, but I really like Sun machines. Does anyone have a timeline for Sun machines and OS's? IPC bases have been going around here $99 from dealers. Over the last 6 months the prices of sparc machines has dropped by 30-40%. Sun 3 systems can be had for prices which even I am willing to pay. It is amazing to me that there are still so many around since they could be used for trade-ins on Sparcs. The story I heard was that they were ground up and recycled. This may be folklore. There are a lot of uses for older machines. Until about a month ago one guy in my office was still using a 3/60 for occasional work. Sure, it was mainly used as an xterm, but it worked. Over 10 years old and still in service. Anoter guy is using an IPX in the same way. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 22 06:26:06 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: bibliography Message-ID: <33AD0BCE.6207@ndirect.co.uk> What do you think of this bibliography? Have I missed any important book on the subject? Please help me in making this a useful refence for everybody to use, if you care. Thank you HOME & PERSONAL COMPUTERS HISTORY BIBLIOGRAPHY Books listed as TITLE, AUTHOR, PUBLISHER AND PUBLICATION DATE - Computer lib/Dream Machines by Ted Nelson, self published in 1974 (reprinted by Tempus Books in an updated form in 1987) - An introduction to microcomputers (vol.0) by Adam Osborne, self published in 1977 - The personal computer book by Robin Bradbeer, Gower, 1980 - The making of the Micro by Christopher Evans, Victor Gollancz Ltd., 1981 - Illustrating Computers by Day & Alcock, Pan Books, 1982 - The personal computer handbook by Varley/Graham, Pan Books Ltd., 1983 - Fire in the Valley by Freiberger/Swaine, Osborne/McGraw-Hill, 1984 - Bit by bit, an illustrated history of computers by Stan Augarten, Ticknor and Fields, 1984 - The little Kingdom by Michael Moritz, William Morrow & Co. Inc., 1984 - Hackers by Steven Levy, Doubleday/Anchor, 1984 - Digital Deli by Steve Ditlea, Workman Publishing, 1984 - Silicon Valley Fever by Robers, Everett & Larson, Basic Books, 1984 - Woz by Doug Garr ? - The Third Apple by Jean-Louis Gassee, Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1985 - The Sinclair story by Rodney Dale, Duckworth, 1985 - Sinclair and the age of the rising sun technology by Adamson and Kennedy, Penguin, 1986 - John Sculley, Odissey by John Byrne, Harper & Row, 1987 - Steve Jobs, the journey is the reward by Jeffrey S. Young, Scott, Foresman & Co., 1988 - Accidental Millionaire by Lee Butcher, Paragon House, 1988 - West of Eden by Frank Rose, Viking, 1989 - Hard Drive by Wallace & Erickson, John Wiley & Sons, 1992 - Whole Earth Software review magazine, Whole Earth Review - Wired magazine - A collector's guide to PERSONAL COMPUTERS and pocket calculators (an historical, rarity and value guide) by Dr.Thomas F.Haddock, Books Americana, 1993 - Accidental Empires by Robert X.Cringely, Harper Business, 1993 - Insanely great by Steven Levy, Penguin Books, 1994 - The Microprocessor: a Biography by Michael S. Malone, Telos/Springer-Verlag, 1995 - The Chip and How It Changed the World (History and Invention) by Ian Locke, 1995. NOTE: If I had to have only one book I would choose Computer lib. Some of these books are out of print. If you would like to find them you will have to go through a book finding service. I use Culpin's Bookshop, 3827 W.32nd Ave., Denver, CO 80211, USA. The ones in print can be ordered through your local bookshop or by post from Computer Literacy bookshop, 2590 North First Street, SAN JOSE', CA 95131, USA, tel.(703) 734-7771, fax (703) 734-7773. -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From sprague at VivaNET.com Sun Jun 22 09:40:19 1997 From: sprague at VivaNET.com (Mike Sprague) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Cocos References: <33ACE0CB.364D@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33AD3953.1CE1@VivaNET.com> e.tedeschi wrote: > > Just to help me understand better...when you refer to Cocos, do you > refer to the Tandy TRS-80 COlour COmputers? Yes. I don't know where the name origionally started, but the support magazine Tandy put out was called Hot CoCo. ~ Mike From bwit at pobox.com Sun Jun 22 07:01:08 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Cocos Message-ID: <01BC7EDA.AE0BA3E0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> Yes, that's correct. Over in the UK you had the Dragon, a neat little machine. Regards, Bob ---------- From: e.tedeschi[SMTP:e.tedeschi@ndirect.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, June 22, 1997 3:22 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Cocos Just to help me understand better...when you refer to Cocos, do you refer to the Tandy TRS-80 COlour COmputers? Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1693 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/1f9d8cae/attachment-0001.bin From bwit at pobox.com Sun Jun 22 07:04:32 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Cocos Message-ID: <01BC7EDA.BE2690A0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> Actually, I believe that Hot Coco was a mag published by Wayne Green of 80-Micro and Byte fame. Regards, Bob ---------- From: Mike Sprague[SMTP:sprague@VivaNET.com] Sent: Sunday, June 22, 1997 9:40 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Cocos e.tedeschi wrote: > > Just to help me understand better...when you refer to Cocos, do you > refer to the Tandy TRS-80 COlour COmputers? Yes. I don't know where the name origionally started, but the support magazine Tandy put out was called Hot CoCo. ~ Mike -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1613 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/04217b53/attachment-0001.bin From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 22 11:12:44 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) References: Message-ID: <33AD4EFC.7828@unix.aardvarkol.com> Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > > solid. I found the "hulk" in a paddock, like some people find ancient cars! > > I've never attempted to power this one up though. > I take "paddock" is Strine for "junkyard", and open to the elements? Or he could litteraly mean paddock! My family has collected antique cars for over 20 years, and have found numerous ones sitting in the open behind someones barn, wheels partially buried in the mud from sitting so long. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.goecities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 22 11:20:28 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Printers and Finds of the Week References: <970622022047_1721833393@emout02.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33AD50CC.413C@unix.aardvarkol.com> KFergason@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-06-21 21:41:21 EDT, you write: > > << I found an interesting printer today. It is an SR2000, produced by > Sears Roebuck & Company, or at least it has their name on it. According > >> > > I have one also, and have the manual somewhere if you need specific > info. might take me a week or two to find it though. :-) Kelly, All I really need to know about it is what the two banks of dip switches do, both the one on the interface card at the rear of the machine, and then the one under the little sliding cover next to the front panel LED's. It works fine now, but it'd be nice to know what they do in case I ever have to fool with it! Thanks. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.goecities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From maynard at jmg.com Sun Jun 22 09:16:12 1997 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [followup scattered throughout text] On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > [snip] > > > > can be had as cheap as $70 bucks base. I know this isn't really on topic > > for people looking for 4 and 8 bit computers, but you have to admit these > > kinds of prices are significant considering what this box will do. Where > > I work has several Sparc 1s and IPC/IPX's floating around still in > > production. Most of them are bootp servers, X-Terms, or snmp log > > grabbers. It's amazing that a computer that old is still so useful. > > > > Hey this is on topic! I like the 4 and 8 bit stuff, but I really like > Sun machines. Sun hardware was damn sturdy. Their later servers - such as the current E3000 and E4000's I don't think are really as tough as something like one of the old 3/280's.... Man those things are tough and still in production in rare situations. We have a 3/60 in production just to gdb code because our 680x0 cross development/emulation platform doesn't handle debuggers terribly well. > > Does anyone have a timeline for Sun machines and OS's? > No, but I think you might want to check the Sun Hardware Reference FAQ available at: ftp://ftp.ece.uc.edu/pub/sun-faq/FAQs/Hardware/ This contains good information about what's *indide* those old boxes, and from that you can extrapolate pretty well about what time it was released. It also has some quality system release dates, but is not a complete reference for such things. > IPC bases have been going around here $99 from dealers. Over the last > 6 months the prices of sparc machines has dropped by 30-40%. Sun 3 > systems can be had for prices which even I am willing to pay. It is > amazing to me that there are still so many around since they could > be used for trade-ins on Sparcs. The story I heard was that they > were ground up and recycled. This may be folklore. > A sparc 1 or Sun 3 base is about the same price around here. I found a sparc 1 with an HM-4119 (Hitachi tube 19" color monitor), a dual sbus cgsix, two 110mb drives (one of which was trashed by the famed spindle lube gone - no spin up - problem), type 5 keyboard and optical mouse, AUI to 10BaseT adapter, and 4MB RAM (that needed upgrading); the price $100. What it lacked: a 13w3 to 4BNC cable (I obtained a 13w3 - > 4BNC adapter thingy for $20, because an original cable would have cost me $120.00 and 13w3 to 13w3 cables are *everywhere*. > There are a lot of uses for older machines. Until about a month ago > one guy in my office was still using a 3/60 for occasional work. Sure, > it was mainly used as an xterm, but it worked. Over 10 years old and > still in service. Anoter guy is using an IPX in the same way. > These things make *great* X-Terminals, especially since they are very cheap, and the architecture is well known. You can find tiny X + system kernels for rarp booting 3/60s if you want to go diskless, or stick a cheap old boot disk on the thing. The Sparc 1s out there are even more useful since they will run modern software - albeit slowly. I figure you can get a functional X-Terminal for around $300 on average... at this price you could put together a small office with a large Linux server and ten X-Terminals running StarOffice or ApplixWare... cost? Software included, easily under five to seven grand. I have yet to find a single small office interested in this type of setup, however. Since I don't make my living trying to sell this stuff, well, that's no skin off my back. But I tell my friends with small businesses, and those I wind up meeting at parties, or in Harvard Square, attempting to set up cheap youth compute centers what a Linux box and X-Terminals can do and how much it will cost. Few believe me. Oh well! \_o_/ | / \ J. Maynard Gelinas From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 22 09:43:51 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > There are a lot of uses for older machines. Until about a month ago > one guy in my office was still using a 3/60 for occasional work. Sure, > it was mainly used as an xterm, but it worked. Over 10 years old and > still in service. Anoter guy is using an IPX in the same way. A Sun 3/60 makes a _great_ X terminal for a Linux box. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 22 10:00:31 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Cocos In-Reply-To: <33AD3953.1CE1@VivaNET.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Mike Sprague wrote: > e.tedeschi wrote: > > Just to help me understand better...when you refer to Cocos, do you > > refer to the Tandy TRS-80 COlour COmputers? > > Yes. I don't know where the name origionally started, but the support > magazine Tandy put out was called Hot CoCo. The magazine was by Wayne Green Publications, a spin-off from 80-Micro (which was a spin-off from Kilobaud) -- and Wayne and Tandy Corp. had an adversarial relationship for a number of years. Wayne also piy out "InCider", for the Apple systems. Nowadays, he's back to his roots -- producing "73" for the ham radio community -- the magazine from which "Byte" then "Kilobaud" then a host of others sprang. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From timolmst at cyberramp.net Sun Jun 22 10:32:08 1997 From: timolmst at cyberramp.net (Tim Olmstead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Mark 8 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970622103127.26a7739e@mailhost.cyberramp.net> >> If you get one of these up and running, I have a Scelbi book, "Space >> Wars for the 8008 Microprocessor" with full hex code listings... > >I also have the three books - > > An 8008 Editor Program > Machine Language Programming for the 8008 > Assembler Programs for the 8008 > >I am such a packrat 8-) > What would be the chances of getting copies of these books? Tim Olmstead timolmst@cyberramp.net From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 22 11:34:27 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: bibliography In-Reply-To: <33AD0BCE.6207@ndirect.co.uk> from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 22, 97 11:26:06 am Message-ID: <9706221534.AA09292@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 845 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/79db1013/attachment-0001.ksh From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 22 10:58:23 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: bibliography References: <33AD0BCE.6207@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33AD4B9F.471D@rain.org> e.tedeschi wrote: > > What do you think of this bibliography? Have I missed any important book > on the subject? Please help me in making this a useful refence for > everybody to use, if you care. Thank you > One book that seems to be missing is a book published in about 1993 by Stan Veit that talks about the history of microcomputing (sorry, don't recall the title off hand.) A number of the articles were printed in the Computer Shopper before the book was published and the information was excellent. From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 22 11:05:49 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Univac Card Punch Base References: <33AD0BCE.6207@ndirect.co.uk> <33AD4B9F.471D@rain.org> Message-ID: <33AD4D5D.5284@rain.org> Anyone have any use for or want a Univac Card Punch Base? I bought this thing probably 15 or 20 years ago before I started collecting, tore it apart and threw away the main unit and kept the base which I used as a desk. I kind of hate to toss it and I would MUCH prefer to give it away. From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 11:18:47 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: Ok, here it is. Mike Westerfield, the guy with the AIM65s, phoned me yesterday and we spoke about the deal. He has been offered $125 for EACH unit from a company called Dynatem which still uses the AIMs commercially. Mike started a company way back with a product based on the AIM65. It was an insurance rate calculator. In order to make the product marketable, he designed a plastic and a metal-base enclosure. He also placed a compact power supply inside the enclosure to make for a nice complete package. He apparently was very successful with this venture and sold many. At this point, unless someone comes along and offers him more than $125 per unit and buys the whole lot, they are going to Dynatem. That's too rich for my blood. After explaining all this to me, and after I explained what we do here on classiccmp, Mike mentioned that he had a bunch of other stuff that we might be interested in. He has a whole basement full of stuff he would like to sell off. Here's what he told me he has: EPROM burners Logical Devices GangPro-S and GangPro-2S. These can burn 32 chips at a time. These also have other features which make them very nice. Logical Devices GangPro-8 and GangPro-4 which can burn 8 and 4 respectively. Optical Technologies EP-2A-88 and EP-2A-89. EPROMs A "ton" of NEC-2716 and Hitachi 2716 EPROMs He also has the line on hundreds of Panasonic RL-H18 palmtops. This is a palmtop which came out around 1985 and had FORTH in ROM. It also has a 20-col (or 40-col?) thermal printer and a case which bundles the two together. His company also developed an expansion "tray" which houses extra memory that the Panasonic can access through bank-switching. He sold this product to (I believe) an insurance firm and now they want to dump them all. Now again, he said they have hundreds, and were just going to shit-can them, but he said the company would most likely opt to get some money back for them if they could. He said probably about $10 per unit would get them, but they'd have to be purchased in one shot. Now I don't think that there are enough people here with an interest to buy one. I suggested that perhaps they can set aside a couple hundred and then shitcan the rest because I don't have a couple thousand lying around in which to buy all of them, nor would I want to. It's up to us to come up with a proposal. As far as dealing with Mike, I asked him contacting him. At this point, he would perfer the current arrangement whereby I am the central point of contact because it is easier for him. However, this tends to put me in a bad spot for certain reasons. I'm sure there will be people interested in working out a bulk deal with him. To those people I say feel free to contact him since he is most interested in getting rid of everything in one shot. He's not interested in dealing with onesies and twosies. So he would like for everyone who has an interest in a little here and a little there to contact me about it and then he's going to call me again in a week. This would refer mainly to someone wanting one of the panasonic's or a few EPROMs. As far as the Panasonics, he's finding out more information about quantity and we will talk more about price next week. As far as the EPROM burners, I would think that dealing directly with him would be best. Anyway, his e-mail address is Mikeooo1@aol.com. He's a very nice guy. He offered that if there was anyone in New Jersey (I believe there is at least one person here, I can't remember his name) to come on down to his place and he'll show you through all the stuff he has. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From scott at saskatoon.com Sun Jun 22 11:41:51 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Cocos In-Reply-To: <01BC7EDA.BE2690A0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> Message-ID: > > Yes. I don't know where the name origionally started, but the support > magazine Tandy put out was called Hot CoCo. > > ~ Mike IIRC, there was some debate in the _really_ early rainbow magazines. (Or maybe it was in the 80 Micros. I have those, I'll have to check later.) They were trying to decide a nickname for the Colour Computer. I don't remember off hand what some of the other candidates were, but there were some people who thought CoCo was too 'cute' or non-business like or some such. ttfn srw From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 22 11:39:31 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33b054ce.584152@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 09:18:47 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: Too bad for the AIM65s. Anyway, I would be in for the Panasonics. Ben From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 22 11:41:36 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: Cocos In-Reply-To: <01BC7EDA.AE0BA3E0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> References: <01BC7EDA.AE0BA3E0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> Message-ID: <33b15579.755586@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 07:01:08 -0500, you wrote: %Yes, that's correct. Over in the UK you had the Dragon, a neat little machine. The dragon was the first computer I bought. I had the French version, with a Peritel output. Paid 3000FF for it. To think that I sold it 5 months later. Ah, the stupidity and shortsightedness of youth.... Ben From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 22 14:55:09 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: AIM65 References: Message-ID: <33AD831D.2696@unix.aardvarkol.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > He also has the line on hundreds of Panasonic RL-H18 palmtops. This is a > palmtop which came out around 1985 and had FORTH in ROM. It also has a > 20-col (or 40-col?) thermal printer and a case which bundles the two > together. His company also developed an expansion "tray" which houses > extra memory that the Panasonic can access through bank-switching. He > sold this product to (I believe) an insurance firm and now they want to > dump them all. Now again, he said they have hundreds, and were just > going to shit-can them, but he said the company would most likely opt to > get some money back for them if they could. He said probably about $10 > per unit would get them, but they'd have to be purchased in one shot. > Now I don't think that there are enough people here with an interest to > buy one. I suggested that perhaps they can set aside a couple hundred > and then shitcan the rest because I don't have a couple thousand lying > around in which to buy all of them, nor would I want to. It's up to us > to come up with a proposal. Sam, I'd certainly be interested in one of the palmtops if we could get enough people to snag a bunch of them. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 (corrected URL) From jrice at texoma.net Sun Jun 22 11:51:36 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: AIM65 References: Message-ID: <33AD5818.5658CB0D@texoma.net> Sam Ismail wrote: > Ok, here it is. > > Mike Westerfield, the guy with the AIM65s, phoned me yesterday and we > spoke about the deal. He has been offered $125 for EACH unit from a > company called Dynatem which still uses the AIMs commercially. Mike > started a company way back with a product based on the AIM65. It was > an > insurance rate calculator. In order to make the product marketable, > he > designed a plastic and a metal-base enclosure. He also placed a > compact > power supply inside the enclosure to make for a nice complete package. > > He apparently was very successful with this venture and sold many. At > > this point, unless someone comes along and offers him more than $125 > per > unit and buys the whole lot, they are going to Dynatem. That's too > rich > for my blood. > > After explaining all this to me, and after I explained what we do here > > on classiccmp, Mike mentioned that he had a bunch of other stuff that > we > might be interested in. He has a whole basement full of stuff he > would > like to sell off. Here's what he told me he has: > > EPROM burners > > Logical Devices GangPro-S and GangPro-2S. These can burn 32 chips at > a time. > These also have other features which make them very nice. > > Logical Devices GangPro-8 and GangPro-4 which can burn 8 and 4 > respectively. > > Optical Technologies EP-2A-88 and EP-2A-89. > > EPROMs > > A "ton" of NEC-2716 and Hitachi 2716 EPROMs > > He also has the line on hundreds of Panasonic RL-H18 palmtops. This > is a > palmtop which came out around 1985 and had FORTH in ROM. It also has > a > 20-col (or 40-col?) thermal printer and a case which bundles the two > together. His company also developed an expansion "tray" which houses > > extra memory that the Panasonic can access through bank-switching. He > > sold this product to (I believe) an insurance firm and now they want > to > dump them all. Now again, he said they have hundreds, and were just > going to shit-can them, but he said the company would most likely opt > to > get some money back for them if they could. He said probably about > $10 > per unit would get them, but they'd have to be purchased in one shot. > Now I don't think that there are enough people here with an interest > to > buy one. I suggested that perhaps they can set aside a couple hundred > > and then shitcan the rest because I don't have a couple thousand lying > > around in which to buy all of them, nor would I want to. It's up to > us > to come up with a proposal. > > As far as dealing with Mike, I asked him contacting him. At this > point, > he would perfer the current arrangement whereby I am the central point > of > contact because it is easier for him. However, this tends to put me > in a > bad spot for certain reasons. I'm sure there will be people > interested in > working out a bulk deal with him. To those people I say feel free to > contact him since he is most interested in getting rid of everything > in > one shot. He's not interested in dealing with onesies and twosies. > So > he would like for everyone who has an interest in a little here and a > little there to contact me about it and then he's going to call me > again > in a week. This would refer mainly to someone wanting one of the > panasonic's or a few EPROMs. As far as the Panasonics, he's finding > out > more information about quantity and we will talk more about price next > > week. As far as the EPROM burners, I would think that dealing > directly > with him would be best. > > Anyway, his e-mail address is Mikeooo1@aol.com. He's a very nice guy. > > He offered that if there was anyone in New Jersey (I believe there is > at > least one person here, I can't remember his name) to come on down to > his > place and he'll show you through all the stuff he has. > > Sam > --- > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, > Writer, Jackass Count me in for a couple of the Panasonics. James L. Rice TRS-80 M100 Collector and user From danjo at xnet.com Sun Jun 22 12:04:01 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: The Truth about AIM-65's Message-ID: Sam Ismail wrote: > Ok, here it is. > > Mike Westerfield, the guy with the AIM65s, phoned me yesterday and we > spoke about the deal. He has been offered $125 for EACH unit from a > company called Dynatem which still uses the AIMs commercially. Mike > started a company way back with a product based on the AIM65. It was > an insurance rate calculator. In order to make the product marketable, > he designed a plastic and a metal-base enclosure. He also placed a > compact power supply inside the enclosure to make for a nice complete > package. > > He apparently was very successful with this venture and sold many. At > this point, unless someone comes along and offers him more than $125 > per unit and buys the whole lot, they are going to Dynatem. That's too > rich for my blood. The problem lies in the fact that in the early/mid 80's Dynatem *bought* the rights to the AIM-65. Lock stock and barrel. I guess they have a right to buy them. I don't think they are going to get tossed anytime soon. I might try to contact them and maybe buy one of of them. BC From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 22 12:09:10 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: bibliography(ies) Message-ID: <199706221709.AA24998@world.std.com> > HOME & PERSONAL COMPUTERS HISTORY BIBLIOGRAPHY > > Books listed as TITLE, AUTHOR, PUBLISHER AND PUBLICATION DATE An excellent list! I'd like to point out that between 77-81 timeframe you have a huge hole as there was an explosion of books about microcomputers. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 22 12:20:30 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: <199706221720.AA29034@world.std.com> Sam, I'd certainly be interested in TWO of the palmtops(@$10ea) if there were some docs like a schematic and ??? Allison From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 22 12:58:57 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:31 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > this point, unless someone comes along and offers him more than $125 per > unit and buys the whole lot, they are going to Dynatem. That's too rich > for my blood. A bit steep for me as well. > Anyway, his e-mail address is Mikeooo1@aol.com. He's a very nice guy. > He offered that if there was anyone in New Jersey (I believe there is at > least one person here, I can't remember his name) to come on down to his > place and he'll show you through all the stuff he has. Let me see if I can schedule some time next weekend. Might be difficult, as I'll be getting ready to head out to Utah and Wyoming for a desperately needed vacation. I know Lisa would want one of the palmtops, but eprom burners are out of my line -- I didn't really involve myself with micros until they came pre-assembled. But I seem to be the only guy on the list in the right area code. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From ccm at sentex.net Sun Jun 22 13:21:52 1997 From: ccm at sentex.net (Commercial Computing Museum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: bibliography Message-ID: <199706221821.OAA23664@granite.sentex.net> What a wonderful idea. Such a list is ideal for a web site. I will gather a few more titles (espeically biographical books by and about CEO's from NCR, Raytheon, GE, DEC, etc.) and send them off to you. Kevin From kyrrin at wizards.net Sun Jun 22 13:12:38 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Perceptions In-Reply-To: <199706220702.AAA17891@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970622111238.00f7bcc0@mail.wizards.net> At 00:02 22-06-97 PDT, you wrote: >Well, to get more specific, I have the (perhaps wrong) feeling that: > >a) You are against collectors who collect for the historical importance >onyl and are not really worried if the item works or not (as long as all >the parts are in there and the thing can be made to work if and when >required). I have been ridiculized when I suggested this one way to go >about collecting. ??? What on God's green Earth would make you think that? I collect a few bits and pieces mainly for historical value (I've got an original Seagate ST212 in one of my Micro-PDP11's that I don't ever plan to use; just exhibit), and I've never been ridiculed. Even if you have been jeered at, what of it? People have taken plenty of pokes at me for my open criticism of Bill Gates, Microsoft, Intel, et al, and my collecting of DEC stuff that's at least ten years old. My take on this? Let 'em jeer. I see them as narrow-minded victims of the Wintel monopoly's marketing sharks, and I am confident in the fact that I'll likely forget more about computer hardware than such people will ever learn. >b) You are against collectors who want ot take out bits and pieces from >the systems in order to show them separately (but retaining and perhaps >even ehibiting the "crippled" item). I have been refused help in thsi >respect when it became apparent I was going to do this. I don't see an issue with this. What I do have a problem with is people who just blindly throw 'bits and pieces' or entire machines on the scrap heap just because they think they're "obsolete" (an overused word if ever there was one!) >c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") >collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that >it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a ?!? Good Lord, man, who's been beating you up? I would WELCOME aiding anyone, in any country, that wanted to restore or collect some piece of hardware that I'm familiar with and needed help to get it going (I obviously can't be of much help with stuff I don't know anything about). Tell you what... if you want proof of this, at least from me, I'd be happy to offer any aid I can with the equipment that I'm familiar with. That includes DEC stuff, from the PDP11/03 on up through the MicroPDP's and VAXen. There are others on here who, I'm sure, would be willing to help you in their particular areas of expertise. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jun 22 13:25:15 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Sun, 22 Jun 1997 09:18:47 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199706221825.LAA17964@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail writes: > Mike Westerfield, the guy with the AIM65s, phoned me yesterday and we > spoke about the deal. He has been offered $125 for EACH unit from a > company called Dynatem which still uses the AIMs commercially. Mike > started a company way back with a product based on the AIM65. It was an > insurance rate calculator. In order to make the product marketable, he > designed a plastic and a metal-base enclosure. He also placed a compact > power supply inside the enclosure to make for a nice complete package. > He apparently was very successful with this venture and sold many. At > this point, unless someone comes along and offers him more than $125 per > unit and buys the whole lot, they are going to Dynatem. That's too rich > for my blood. Some computers are so classic that they're still out there doing Real Work! I am going to have to pull my other AIM65 out and take a good look at it to see if I can figure out who badge-engineered it. (I wonder if it was Mike?) It is also in a plastic case that is obviously intended to make it portable, and I wonder how many other companies there were doing specialized applications around them. Thanks, Sam and Marvin, for sounding this out and being the go-betweens. -Frank McConnell From frank at 5points.com Sun Jun 22 13:25:44 1997 From: frank at 5points.com (Frank Peseckis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33b16772.489808903@mail.capital.net> On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 09:18:47 -0700 (PDT), Sam Ismail wrote: >He also has the line on hundreds of Panasonic RL-H18 palmtops. This is a >palmtop which came out around 1985 and had FORTH in ROM. [snip] >get some money back for them if they could. He said probably about $10 >per unit would get them, but they'd have to be purchased in one shot. Sam, if you are planning to add up the count-me-in's for the palmtops and act as the representative to buy a bunch from Mike as a single lot for people on the list who express interest, count me in for two of them. If this does happen, how do you want to handle the logistics of payment and shipping? Frank Frank Peseckis frank@5points.com http://www.5points.com/ From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 19:26:33 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33AB7098.544A@ndirect.co.uk>; from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 21, 97 6:11 am Message-ID: <199706221826.3911@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > What's wrong with this (virtual) "group" ??? > > Of all the collecting groups I belong to, this is the only one where my > (and I suppose other's) public (and private) requests for help have been > ignored and (worse) I suspect even opposed. I'll admit to ignoring requests for help - if I either don't know the answer, or if I have good reason to believe that somebody else will answer it more completely than I ever could. I don't (for example) respond to posts about the Apple ][ very often - I didn't grow up with them, and don't know that much about them. There are plenty of people here who could give a lot more information on those machines. But try asking about one of my favourite machines and you'll get all sorts of info sent back. I suspect most other people here act the same way. I, too, have received no replies to some of my messages, but I've simply taken that to mean that nobody knows the answer, and not anything personal. > > Is there something I don't know? If this the case I would like to know. > Thank you. > > Also your caper to insist on having ALL the items in the collection in > working condition is, in my opinion, unique to this group. I can Well, I prefer my machines to work - that's what they were designed to do, and that's what they should still do. But if you're implying that I don't want any non-working stuff, then that's 100% false. I have several tens of machines that need repair at this moment. One day I'll get round to fixing them (I enjoy repairing classic computers!), but until then I'll keep them as they are. And even machines beyond repair (prototypes with a dead custom chip :-)) are still worth collecting. > enrico -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 22 13:27:40 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: H8 Computer References: <3.0.1.32.19970622111238.00f7bcc0@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: <33AD6E9C.3E14@rain.org> What is a Heath H8 worth? A friend of mine turned my on to a Heathkit H8, H19 terminal, 5 1/4" drives, 8" drives, and all manuals and docs. The guy wants $100 for the lot and I don't know if this is reasonable or not. I told him I am not interested in cheating or paying him a lot less than what it might be worth, but I don't want to pay more either :). Also FWIW, he sold a Heathkit 6800 logic kit for $35 yesterday. Again, I don't know if that is reasonable or not, but the unit did sound interesting. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 19:37:13 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <33ABAEFA.1044@ndirect.co.uk>; from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 21, 97 10:37 am Message-ID: <199706221837.3956@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Well, to get more specific, I have the (perhaps wrong) feeling that: > > a) You are against collectors who collect for the historical importance > onyl and are not really worried if the item works or not (as long as all > the parts are in there and the thing can be made to work if and when > required). I have been ridiculized when I suggested this one way to go > about collecting. I am not against any collectors. The fact that different people have different views on how to collect classic computers is to be expected IMHO. You mentioned in a previous message that you collected for 'historical importance and design' (or words to that effect). Now, to look at the design properly _requires_ that the machine is working IMHO. Otherwise you may as well just collect the schematics and technical manuals - although I have a large-ish collection of those (11 bookcases + a filing cabinet + a few piles), I'd not claim they were as nice as the machines they go with. But a non-working machine and its schematic give you essentially the same information. > > b) You are against collectors who want ot take out bits and pieces from > the systems in order to show them separately (but retaining and perhaps > even ehibiting the "crippled" item). I have been refused help in thsi > respect when it became apparent I was going to do this. Hmmm... Well, I _am_ 'against' people who strip rare machines for their parts. But I have no objections to dismantling (reversably) a classic computer - when I demonstrate one of my machines I _always_ open the cover and pull boards. At the HPCC conference last year I demonstrated my 9100B, and then flipped the cover, pulled out the timing, flip-flop and core boards, removed the keyboard and card reader and flipped over the main control store assembly. I then passed the bits round the audience. Yes, it did work afterwards! So, if you to exhibit a machine and one of its PCBs separately, go ahead. But I'd be happier if I knew it could all go back together again sometime. > > c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") > collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that Eh? last time I checked this was an international list. I've never found _any_ anti-a-particular-country messages here, and never want to do so. But classic computers _are_ difficult to ship. They're heavy, delicate, and impossible to replace. Insurance is no use at all, and shipping companies are not that careful. I know plenty of people in the States who I'd quite happily allow to use machines in my collection (they'd know how to care for them, etc), but I'd never ship the machines to them, simply because I could not be sure they'd not get lost or damaged in shipping. > Thank you for your interest > > enrico -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 19:44:02 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Label Remover Message-ID: <199706221844.3985@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> There was a thread here a few weeks back about dealing with those sticky labels that seem to accumulate on classic computers. I've just bought a can of a substance called 'Electrolube (the brand name) Label Remover'. You spray it on, wait a few minutes, and rub the label off. I used it yesterday to remove some _strong_ double-sided adhesive tape inside my laser printer, and it did the job extremely well. The can claims that it may attack some plastics (so take care on classic micro cases!), and it's not that cheap (\pounds 4.00 for a small-ish spraycan from Maplin). But it certainly does the job. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Jun 22 14:44:12 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... References: <199706220702.AAA17891@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33AD808B.1972@goldrush.com> >From: "e.tedeschi" >Subject: Re: Why? >Well, to get more specific, I have the (perhaps wrong) feeling that: > a) You are against collectors who collect for the historical importance > onyl and are not really worried if the item works or not (as long as all > the parts are in there and the thing can be made to work if and when > required). I have been ridiculized when I suggested this one way to go > about collecting. I have never felt that here, and I have several items in my collection in non-working order. Would I give up my P-500, MTU VMM board, or SuperPET if I never got them fixed? NO! I would hope to get them fixed but the important thing now is to get them, mainly because it is part of the 'collection' if they work, wonderful, if they don't they still has meaning. > b) You are against collectors who want ot take out bits and pieces from > the systems in order to show them separately (but retaining and perhaps > even ehibiting the "crippled" item). I have been refused help in thsi > respect when it became apparent I was going to do this. I think that may be personal views by individual collectors and not by the group in whole. Some feel that not having 'original parts' or add-ons is blasphmey. I can understand and appreciate where you come from, there are compnents of computers that are shear art as the disk controller in the apple II (from what I read the board was drawn 'not designed by computer' by Steve Wozniac.) I would be interested to learn more about it. There have been chips that have amazed me too. Everyone has their own intrest. The only reason you are perceiving otherwise is that those people are the ones that are posting more, from years of running an BBS as well as participating on the group, the more you post messages the more attention and notoriety you will receive. If you want to see something written about an interest of yours, sometimes you just have to sit down and write it yourself. > c) You are against helping "foreigners" (and therefore "different") > collectors to export "your" stuff perhaps in the wrong perception that > it will diminish the heritage of the country (yours). I have striken a > deal with one of the subscriber here and he disappeared in the distance > after a while (he did not answer anymore...) By the way does anybody > need British stuff? I would be glad to help you with it. I reply to what I know (some times I also replay to what I don't know and put my foot in the mouth in the process). If you see anyone post about Commodores or PETs more specifically, you can be sure within a day or so a response from me will follow (unless it is something I am totally in the dark about). Case in point, Exidy Sorceror, I purchased one and sent it to Sam Ismael, he is now looking for information, not very many people ever seen one, much less an ad for one, sometimes the best we can do is quiote from old magazine ads. :/ Also some of the sytems are regional and there may not be many people from that area who have seen that particular machine on this list... > Of course I have no proof of the above but from the short experience I > had here, I think that the problem exhists as opposed to the "openess" > of other American collecting groups like, for example, the radio > collecting community which has been VERY helpful with me and other > "foreigners" to buy and export stuff from the USA and CANADA (what about > the stuff you ARE importing from overseas then?). I have sent fellow users disks and cartridges through the mail to Europe, anything larger I could not afford the shipping. This depends on the individual. Sam was lucky to get me to shop the Sorcer as quick as I did, I myself lothe shipping things, especially heavy/bulky things. I think that again depends on the individual. > I think that if you think I am wrong the best way to demonstrate it, if > you care, is not with words but with facts. > Thank you for your interest > enrico You are very welcome and hope you keep with the list and help us all to work out this misunderstanding. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Jun 22 15:10:43 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: PET References: <199706220702.AAA17891@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33AD86C2.234F@goldrush.com> > From: Paul E Coad > Subject: Re: Who was in Australia? >On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >> Subject: Mint Commodore PET FOR Sale >> From: "Stephen McCoy and Charmiane Barr" >> >> Date: 1997/06/17Message-Id: >> <01bc7b43$fddee5c0$b8933dcf@charmaine> >> Newsgroups: aus.computers.amiga[More Headers] >I'll bite on this. How much is one of these worth? I have almost >zero experience with PETs having only seen 2 in person. What are the >relative rarities of the various models of PETs? Did they make a >bunch of them? Are they really common in some places and pretty >rare in others? As everyone says worth is a relative term, some computers that hvae high perceived values are given to people, etc. This is a question YOU have to answer as a collector, no one can set your price for you. Well alot of the PETS were purchased by schools and some businesses, prices for the computer back then when they were new (1977-1981) ranged from $700-$1,200, disk drives were about $1,000 for a dual drive model. Nowadays in my region of California schools have been ridding themselves of them at a high rate. The computers are not too terribly hard to come by but the drives are harder to find. Rarity? Hmm, probably the most interesting is the original series with it's colorful calculator-style keyboard (circa 1977) and in-case cassette unit. Next I would say is the SuperPET (circa 1981, the last of the line, which I described about two digests ago) with it's mainframe-friendly, multi-language ability. All units had monochrome displays and either 40x25 or 80x25 screens (no hi-res graphics without 3rd party hardware), the BASIC is almost exacly the same as in the Commodore 64 or VIC-20 and uses a 6502 processor. Memory ranged from the first 4k units (a short run), 8k, 16k and 32k with some of the latter 80 column machines sporting 96k expansion bnoards. There are a few collections of programs available on the internet with most still to be re-discovered. >The ones I have seen are pretty cool looking in a retro-future kind of way. That's true, back then they 'looked' like a modern computer, more than some of the other computers (which looked like the steel boxes they were in). You can spot them as props in movies now and again (Star Trek II, in Kirk's apartment). They were fun, and they were pretty good even for their limitations. If you are a fan of Commodore computers it is a nice addition to have some PETs in the house. ;) >Also note that whois reports that efni.com is in Canada. The machine >might not be in Australia. Commodore was pretty big for a good while in other countries as they had the foresight to start manufacturing plants internationally (Germany was probably one of its largest). As far as shipping a PET it would require a very sturdy box about the size needed for a 19" television and would weigh 30 to 40 pounds. -- Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Jun 22 15:27:40 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Classsic Computing Newsgroup revisited Message-ID: <33AD8ABC.6F05@goldrush.com> About a month or two back we were discussing starting a newsgroup for classic computer collectors. I just wanted to mention there is a somewhat related newsgroup on the net that could use some activity: alt.technology.obsolete I am for it, I have it on my news sites to check and in the last few months I have maybe seen three messages in it (two being multi-newsgroup spams) Whaddya guys (and gals) think? Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 20:51:16 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <33AD808B.1972@goldrush.com>; from "Larry Anderson & Diane Hare" at Jun 22, 97 11:44 am Message-ID: <199706221951.4344@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I think that may be personal views by individual collectors and not by > the group in whole. Some feel that not having 'original parts' or > add-ons is blasphmey. I can understand and appreciate where you come Hmmm... I see nothing wrong with replacing components in a system - that, to me, is a natural thing that would have happened to the machine when it was in use. I can understand people who feel differently, though. > from, there are compnents of computers that are shear art as the disk > controller in the apple II (from what I read the board was drawn 'not I'll have to disagree with you there. IMHO the Disk II controller is nothing other than a kludge. It could certainly have done with a track 0 sensor (that would have stopped the heads from banging on start-up). And, as a hardware designer, I don't like designs where most of the functionality is handled in software. Now, the RX01 (or even the RK02) - they're _elegant_ disk controllers (ducking to avoid flames....). The RX01 is a large board of TTL that is, essentially a custom-built microcoded processor. The RX02 (which adds double-density operation) was built from those wonderful 2900-series bit-slice chips. But each to his own. I'm not going to flame Apple ][ enthusiasts, just as they don't flame DEC and 3RCC enthusiasts. And I'll save Apple hardware if I see it - I bought a large stack of obscure Apple cards at the last radio rally (Hamfest). [...] > totally in the dark about). Case in point, Exidy Sorceror, I purchased > one and sent it to Sam Ismael, he is now looking for information, not > very many people ever seen one, much less an ad for one, sometimes the Somewhere I have a Techref for the Sorceror, and one for the S100 adapter for it. I also have some user group newsletters, etc. Feel free to pester me on this list if you want me to dig this stuff out. BTW, it's not up for grabs. I need it to maintain my Sorceror :-) > Larry Anderson -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 22 16:19:47 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Classsic Computing Newsgroup revisited In-Reply-To: <33AD8ABC.6F05@goldrush.com> from "Larry Anderson & Diane Hare" at Jun 22, 97 12:27:40 pm Message-ID: <9706222019.AA06792@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1499 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/c5e7a731/attachment-0001.ksh From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 22 15:23:38 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706221951.4344@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > I'll have to disagree with you there. IMHO the Disk II controller is > nothing other than a kludge. It could certainly have done with a track 0 > sensor (that would have stopped the heads from banging on start-up). And, > as a hardware designer, I don't like designs where most of the > functionality is handled in software. It was definitely a kluge, as Woz would be the first to admit. Back when he was homebrewing the machine that would later be known as the Apple, he had more time to program than money to buy components -- that's why the weird disk controller with no sector detect and the 65021 instead of the 8080 -- the 6502 was about a quarter of the price of an 8080 at the time. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 22 15:25:22 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Hams who collect References: <199706221951.4344@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <33AD8A32.12A7@rain.org> I see a number of references to people who get things at hamfests, swapfests, and other amateur radio type events. As such, I was just curious who out there has their amateur radio license. I have one and my call is KE6HTS. The Santa Barbara Amateur Radio Club (of which I am currently VP of Training and Education) will be having a bazaar on Saturday, July 12th from 9AM to about noon. If anyone is interested in attending, let me know and I will forward the directions. Hmmm, I think there is information on the SBARC Web page, http://www.sbarc.org. Generally speaking, things are sold at whatever price during the first hour, half that for the second hour, free for the taking during the last hour, and free to intecept as the remains are carried to the dumpster. They have quite a few older computers (condition unknown) including the NCR PC-8 (which I have already interecepted), A SpectraGraphics CAD setup with at least four workstations and a bunch of stuff I am not familiar with. The PCs, PS/2s, and similar stuff will probably be available for the taking. I would like to see the SpectraGraphics stuff saved as well, but I am out of space for the moment. From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 22 15:29:07 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Hams who collect References: <199706221951.4344@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> <33AD8A32.12A7@rain.org> Message-ID: <33AD8B13.35A@rain.org> Marvin wrote: > > The Santa Barbara Amateur Radio Club (of which I am currently VP of > Training and Education) will be having a bazaar on Saturday, July 12th > from 9AM to about noon. If anyone is interested in attending, let me > know and I will forward the directions. Hmmm, I think there is > information on the SBARC Web page, http://www.sbarc.org. > I stand corrected, I just checked the page and nothing to speak of about the Bazaar. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 21:28:54 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Classsic Computing Newsgroup revisited In-Reply-To: <9706222019.AA06792@alph02.triumf.ca>; from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 22, 97 1:19 pm Message-ID: <199706222028.4491@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I'm against new newsgroups being created, especially when the topics > are quite technical and already well-handled by existing newsgroups. > For example, people wanting Apple II help can go to comp.sys.apple2, > users of various CP/M systems hang around comp.os.cpm, PDP-11 > users have vmsnet.pdp-11, etc. Agreed. Off-hand I can't think of a single classic computer which is not covered by at least one existing newsgroup. If you don't know which group to post to, you'll find that most of them are quite friendly to just-off-topic questions. If you find an obscure Z80 machine that didn't ever run CP/M, I'm quite sure that a post to comp.os.cpm would get either some help or a pointer to the appropriate newsgroup. I'd be _very_ supprised if it got a flame. I know for a _fact_ that other early workstations have been discussed in alt.sys.perq with no flamage. Just be warned that most of these groups do not want off-topic postings about mainstream modern PC's (for which there are plenty of other groups), and certainly don't want spam :-) > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 21:33:02 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Hams who collect In-Reply-To: <33AD8A32.12A7@rain.org>; from "Marvin" at Jun 22, 97 1:25 pm Message-ID: <199706222033.4511@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > I see a number of references to people who get things at hamfests, > swapfests, and other amateur radio type events. As such, I was just > curious who out there has their amateur radio license. I have one and > my call is KE6HTS. G1XPF here. That's a 'Class B' license, roughly the equivalent of a no-code tech in the States. But, at least in the UK, people without an amateur radio license are welcome at radio rallies (hamfests), etc. Sometimes you'll be asked for a callsign (particularly if you want the seller to hold something for you to pick up later, or for identification if you're paying by cheque), but you can always claim to be a short-wave listener (SWL). I did that for a couple of rallies, got interested in the hobby, and got my license. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sun Jun 22 15:35:57 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: PET In-Reply-To: <33AD86C2.234F@goldrush.com> References: <199706220702.AAA17891@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970622213557.006859c0@post.keme.co.uk> Hi you lot, glad the group is in a positive mood!!! Ok can you help ? a few months ago I found a Commodore P500 seriel NO. WG00837 ????? What the heck is it???? Its made in W.Germany Any Idea?? Steve Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 21:36:12 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: ; from "Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers" at Jun 22, 97 4:23 pm Message-ID: <199706222036.4538@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > It was definitely a kluge, as Woz would be the first to admit. Back when > he was homebrewing the machine that would later be known as the Apple, he > had more time to program than money to buy components -- that's why the > weird disk controller with no sector detect and the 65021 instead of the > 8080 -- the 6502 was about a quarter of the price of an 8080 at the time. And the marginal PSU, strange video addressing (to save a few TTL chips), a couple of marginal timings, etc. I believe Steve Ciarcia once printed a letter he had received from Woz (or maybe the other Apple designer) explaining that they were designing a computer and were using the 6502 because they couldn't afford the 8080. I can't remember which issue of Byte that was printed in, though. I can understand why the Apple ][ has a significant following - it was a machine that was 'open', that hackers could get inside, etc. But I also know that it's not a good piece of hardware design, and thus don't put it high up my list of interesting machines. > Ward Griffiths -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From starling at umr.edu Sun Jun 22 15:42:00 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 22, 97 09:18:47 am Message-ID: <199706222042.PAA15389@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > He also has the line on hundreds of Panasonic RL-H18 palmtops. This is a > palmtop which came out around 1985 and had FORTH in ROM. It also has a > 20-col (or 40-col?) thermal printer and a case which bundles the two > together. His company also developed an expansion "tray" which houses > extra memory that the Panasonic can access through bank-switching. He > sold this product to (I believe) an insurance firm and now they want to > dump them all. Are these the same as the Panasonic HHC? I've got a couple of those. They look like a glorified calculator (but wide and short instead of long and skinny) with a QWERTY on it... one-line display, and they take programs in the form of ROM chips that you actually plug into the sockets in the back of the bugger. One of mine I got from a guy who used to work for an insurance company. He had taken a suit case, lined it with foam rubber and then cut out holes for the HHC and components to fit in... sort of a makeshift laptop, an idea ahead of its time. As I reacall, the HHC runs a 6502 and has 4K RAM. Radio shack sold the same machine under its own name for a while, but I forget what they called it. A friend of mine had one in Jr High and I was really jealous because he could program entire algebra formulas into it so that he could just feed it the numbers and it'd spit out the answers (it was cool for 1986). Is the HHC and the RL-H18 related? From bwit at pobox.com Sun Jun 22 15:36:37 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: AIM65 Message-ID: <01BC7F22.1478ADC0@ppp-151-164-40-220.rcsntx.swbell.net> Sam, Thanks for your efforts in the great AIM-65 buyout! I'll take two of the Panasonics. Regards, Bob ---------- From: Sam Ismail[SMTP:dastar@crl.com] Sent: Sunday, June 22, 1997 4:18 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: AIM65 Ok, here it is. Mike Westerfield, the guy with the AIM65s, phoned me yesterday and we spoke about the deal. He has been offered $125 for EACH unit from a company called Dynatem which still uses the AIMs commercially. Mike started a company way back with a product based on the AIM65. It was an insurance rate calculator. In order to make the product marketable, he designed a plastic and a metal-base enclosure. He also placed a compact power supply inside the enclosure to make for a nice complete package. He apparently was very successful with this venture and sold many. At this point, unless someone comes along and offers him more than $125 per unit and buys the whole lot, they are going to Dynatem. That's too rich for my blood. After explaining all this to me, and after I explained what we do here on classiccmp, Mike mentioned that he had a bunch of other stuff that we might be interested in. He has a whole basement full of stuff he would like to sell off. Here's what he told me he has: EPROM burners Logical Devices GangPro-S and GangPro-2S. These can burn 32 chips at a time. These also have other features which make them very nice. Logical Devices GangPro-8 and GangPro-4 which can burn 8 and 4 respectively. Optical Technologies EP-2A-88 and EP-2A-89. EPROMs A "ton" of NEC-2716 and Hitachi 2716 EPROMs He also has the line on hundreds of Panasonic RL-H18 palmtops. This is a palmtop which came out around 1985 and had FORTH in ROM. It also has a 20-col (or 40-col?) thermal printer and a case which bundles the two together. His company also developed an expansion "tray" which houses extra memory that the Panasonic can access through bank-switching. He sold this product to (I believe) an insurance firm and now they want to dump them all. Now again, he said they have hundreds, and were just going to shit-can them, but he said the company would most likely opt to get some money back for them if they could. He said probably about $10 per unit would get them, but they'd have to be purchased in one shot. Now I don't think that there are enough people here with an interest to buy one. I suggested that perhaps they can set aside a couple hundred and then shitcan the rest because I don't have a couple thousand lying around in which to buy all of them, nor would I want to. It's up to us to come up with a proposal. As far as dealing with Mike, I asked him contacting him. At this point, he would perfer the current arrangement whereby I am the central point of contact because it is easier for him. However, this tends to put me in a bad spot for certain reasons. I'm sure there will be people interested in working out a bulk deal with him. To those people I say feel free to contact him since he is most interested in getting rid of everything in one shot. He's not interested in dealing with onesies and twosies. So he would like for everyone who has an interest in a little here and a little there to contact me about it and then he's going to call me again in a week. This would refer mainly to someone wanting one of the panasonic's or a few EPROMs. As far as the Panasonics, he's finding out more information about quantity and we will talk more about price next week. As far as the EPROM burners, I would think that dealing directly with him would be best. Anyway, his e-mail address is Mikeooo1@aol.com. He's a very nice guy. He offered that if there was anyone in New Jersey (I believe there is at least one person here, I can't remember his name) to come on down to his place and he'll show you through all the stuff he has. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3725 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/e2746ac3/attachment-0001.bin From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 22 15:49:27 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: info about... Message-ID: <199706222049.AA02583@world.std.com> I have a PC05 card (LSI-11) it's a punch reader interface. This one is different...it's a virgin bare board! Anyone that want's it let me know. Anyone know what a DEC 54-17101/2- ACTOR video daughter is used on? I have two of these. Allison From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 22 17:00:41 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706222036.4538@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 22, 97 09:36:12 pm Message-ID: <9706222100.AA01113@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1854 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/a78f4072/attachment-0001.ksh From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Sun Jun 22 16:02:07 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Apple ][ design (was: Bad feelings) Message-ID: <970622160207.2040551a@wartburg.edu> >I can understand why the Apple ][ has a significant following - it was a >machine that was 'open', that hackers could get inside, etc. But I also >know that it's not a good piece of hardware design, and thus don't put it >high up my list of interesting machines. Perhaps I am merely biased from growing up with the Apple ][ at school and, later, at home, but I would say that some of the design is ingenious. I do know that many a programmer has complained about the arrangement of the high-resolution screen in memory (which was arranged the way it is to save components). But, I find the economy of this feature fascinating. The Apple ][ and its successors had great capabilities for expansion (with the possible exception of the IIc and IIc+). A IIe has the capability of using a hand-held scanner, for instance, with the right slot card and the right software. I'm sure the IIe wasn't designed originally for that task. There are numerous other examples as well. Your mileage may vary, of course. -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 22 19:27:35 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design References: <199706222036.4538@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <33ADC2F7.43AC@unix.aardvarkol.com> A.R. Duell wrote: > I can understand why the Apple ][ has a significant following - it was a > machine that was 'open', that hackers could get inside, etc. But I also > know that it's not a good piece of hardware design, and thus don't put it > high up my list of interesting machines. I'm a newbie to the world of Apple, spending my early years with Timex-Sinclair's and TRS-80's. I would have to say that your statement above though depends on what you call a 'good piece of hardware design'. For me, it ranks up there with the ZX-81 as an ingenius hardware design due to it's simplicity. I mean heck, as far as boards go, the Apple II mainboard is almost beautiful in it's layout due to this. I often find it interesting to think about the total 180 degree turn Apple did between the ][ series and the Mac's as far as expandability and such. They went from a totally open system to a totally closed system. They should've stuck with the open. As for the difference in a system using hardware to drive things or software, just look at the difference in some floppy drives used in various other things. The drives used for like the Atari 8bits were extremely flexible, as were those with the Amiga, while drives used on any PC, regardless of age unless it has a special controller, are very limited to just what the hardware will let them use. Of course, I don't have anywhere near the knowledge in this area that people like Allison do! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 (corrected URL) From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 22:21:51 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <9706222100.AA01113@alph02.triumf.ca>; from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 22, 97 2:00 pm Message-ID: <199706222121.4752@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > I can understand why the Apple ][ has a significant following - it was a > > machine that was 'open', that hackers could get inside, etc. But I also > > know that it's not a good piece of hardware design, and thus don't put it > > high up my list of interesting machines. > > It depends on how you define "good". Wozniak clearly had a different > definition - he would fret for days about reducing chip count by > using some clever scheme. From the hardware manufacturer's point > of view, a couple dozen assembly language instructions are free, while > chips (and board space) costs real money. Yes, but it some cases the 'kludges' led to problems later on - 'trivial' problems like a total incompatability between the Disk II and just about any other machine in the world, 'mariginal behaviour' like a case that overheated, a PSU that was beyond the design limit when running a system board, language card and 1 drive, things like that that caused some machines to crash after about 1 hour, that _crazy_ slot addressing scheme and the saving on chips/PSU consumption by switching the power line to the I/O card ROM - I may be old-fashioned, but I don't like driving input pins past the supply rails..., etc Saving components is only 'good' when it doesn't affect performance. I am not convinced that this is the case with the Apple ][ Oh, please don't think I am picking on Apple. The PERQ (my favourite machine) has a number of _very_ marginal timings. The various CPU board clocks are delayed with respect to each other by a string of TTL inverters and buffers. Some memory cards will only work in landscape mode - the timing is 'on the edge', so that the portrait mode doesn't work. And for those that do work in portrait mode as well you often have to change a coupld of chips to slower versions (say a 74S157 -> 74LS157) to get it to work correctly. > Wozniak's attempts to reduce chip count aren't very different than > the efforts that radio manufacturers have made to reduce tube counts. > Almost all consumer-grade superhets will combine the local oscillator > and the mixer, for example. Well, in the UK, a 'pentagrid converter' was very uncommon except in battery sets. Most mains superhets used a triode-hexode frequency changer - one 'bottle', but separate oscillator (triode) and mixer (hexode) sections. > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 22:31:38 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Apple ][ design (was: Bad feelings) In-Reply-To: <970622160207.2040551a@wartburg.edu>; from "Andy Brobston" at Jun 22, 97 4:02 pm Message-ID: <199706222131.4789@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > >I can understand why the Apple ][ has a significant following - it was a > >machine that was 'open', that hackers could get inside, etc. But I also > >know that it's not a good piece of hardware design, and thus don't put it > >high up my list of interesting machines. > > Perhaps I am merely biased from growing up with the Apple ][ at school > and, later, at home, but I would say that some of the design is > ingenious. I do know that many a programmer has complained about the Some of the Apple ][ design is ingenious - I'll agree to that. But, IMHO, there are plenty of other 'ingenious' machines where the aim was not to save a 10 cent chip, and thus the resulting hardware is a lot more stable. I'll admit now to having come to the Apple after a number of other micros. My Apple ]['s have _always_ been a lot less 'stable' than my much-hacked TRS-80 model 1, my Pets, my S100 systems, etc. It may be that I didn't spend enough time learning about the Apple so I didn't work out 'fixes' (as I said, my model 1 was modified...). The Apple ][ TechRef (and many other Apple ][ manuals of that time) are _excellent_, BTW. I learnt a lot from reading them. But I'd never use some of the tricks that were pulled there in my own designs. > arrangement of the high-resolution screen in memory (which was > arranged the way it is to save components). But, I find the economy of > this feature fascinating. I find it a kludge. We're both entitled to our views, and I have no desire to start a flame war over it. Please note that I can find kludges in just about any machine you care to name. > > The Apple ][ and its successors had great capabilities for expansion > (with the possible exception of the IIc and IIc+). A IIe has the > capability of using a hand-held scanner, for instance, with the right > slot card and the right software. I'm sure the IIe wasn't designed > originally for that task. There are numerous other examples as well. Well, I doubt that my 1972 PDP11/45 was designed to use SCSI disks, but it does now. I doubt my PERQ was designed to use 9-track magtape, but thanks to a Dylon tape interface it does now. And I certainly doubt that my Tandy CoCo was designed to have 3 extra serial ports and an _Apple_ digitising tablet, but a couple of homebrew boards have allowed it to. Just about _any_ 2 computer devices can be linked given enough time. It's not always worth the effort, but it's often fun... > Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 22:45:38 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <33ADC2F7.43AC@unix.aardvarkol.com>; from "Jeff Hellige" at Jun 22, 97 5:27 pm Message-ID: <199706222145.4857@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > A.R. Duell wrote: > > > I can understand why the Apple ][ has a significant following - it was a > > machine that was 'open', that hackers could get inside, etc. But I also > > know that it's not a good piece of hardware design, and thus don't put it > > high up my list of interesting machines. > > I'm a newbie to the world of Apple, spending my early years with > Timex-Sinclair's and TRS-80's. I would have to say that your statement > above though depends on what you call a 'good piece of hardware > design'. For me, it ranks up there with the ZX-81 as an ingenius > hardware design due to it's simplicity. I mean heck, as far as boards Well, the ZX81 is another machine on my 'kludge list' :-). Minimal hardware designs do not, in general interest me.... I love board after board stuffed with TTL. I have machines with a couple of _thousand_ chips in them, still running, and great fun to repair and maitain. Simplicity is nice, but inginuity is even nicer. Compare the Apple ][ video system with (say) a PPL or I2S framestore for a PDP11, and you'll see what _real_ video hardware is like (yes, I know, no comparison - the PDP11 framestores were 100 times the cost of an Apple ][). I've never liked bit-banged serial ports either (except on microcontrollers). They always seem to have problems with full-duplex operation. Yes, Apple sold a bit-banged serial port for a time - I have one with the manual (which, amazingly contains instructions on linking it to an ASR33), presumably to save a UART chip. They then sold one that worked properly (in full-duplex mode, etc) under the name 'super serial card'. It used (IIRC) a 6850 chip (or was it a 6551?) > go, the Apple II mainboard is almost beautiful in it's layout due to > this. I often find it interesting to think about the total 180 degree > turn Apple did between the ][ series and the Mac's as far as > expandability and such. They went from a totally open system to a > totally closed system. They should've stuck with the open. The minimalist approach to hardware was still present in (at least) the early Macs. I was inside a Mac+ the other day, and the mainboard seemed to consist of the expected chips (68000, ROMs, RAM SIMMs, 5380, 8530, etc) and a few PALs + TTL stuff. How the video side works is a mystery to me... Ditto the Apple Laserwriter 2NT (I've just been working on one). The engine interface on the formatter board seems to consist of a few bits on a VIA for the command/status lines, a small FIFO, a few TTL devices, a state machine in a PAL, and (I guess) some clever 68000 software. > > As for the difference in a system using hardware to drive things or > software, just look at the difference in some floppy drives used in > various other things. The drives used for like the Atari 8bits were > extremely flexible, as were those with the Amiga, while drives used on An Apple ][ drive + controller can't (AFAIK) read a standard FM or MFM disk, no matter how clever the software, just as a PC controller can't read a GCR (Apple or Commodore) disk. > any PC, regardless of age unless it has a special controller, are very > limited to just what the hardware will let them use. Of course, I don't This is true, but if you want to do strange things with PC (or any other) hardware then design the card you need. It's not that hard, and it won't affect the machine's performance in other areas. > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 22 17:45:47 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706222121.4752@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 22, 97 10:21:51 pm Message-ID: <9706222145.AA09874@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2782 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/8d8ecded/attachment-0001.ksh From DASARNO at aol.com Sun Jun 22 16:58:07 1997 From: DASARNO at aol.com (DASARNO@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 needs home Message-ID: <970622175806_-493583379@emout17.mail.aol.com> Have a mint condition Kaypro 10, complete with all manuals. Looks like it came out of the box. Works great, all original software. If you know of anyone who has a serious interest, please e-mail me. Don Sarno From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 23:03:52 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <9706222145.AA09874@alph02.triumf.ca>; from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 22, 97 2:45 pm Message-ID: <199706222203.4930@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Yes, but it some cases the 'kludges' led to problems later on - 'trivial' > > problems like a total incompatability between the Disk II and just about > > any other machine in the world > > For the most part, 5.25" disks are incompatible between any > two machines. There never was a standard format, unlike the 8" > world where IBM 3740 dominated (though that didn't mean that > everyone was compatible with it.) Yes, but in general you could get 2 machines that used FM (or MFM) recording on 5.25" disks to agree on a common format to interchange data. I got my TRS-80 Model 1 and RML380Z (a UK CP/M machine) to transfer text files that way. > > > a PSU that was beyond the design limit when running a system > > board, language card and 1 drive > > No, it isn't. I just measured the system current drain (II+, 1 Disk ][ > drive, third-party language-card equivalent) and verified > this isn't true. It is true that every 10 years or so a power supply > will fail, but you can blame Astec for that. Maybe my motherboard is marginal, but I remember measuring the +5V drain of motherboard + Apple Language Card + disk II controller + Disk II as (I think - this was about 5 years ago) 2.6A. According to the label on my PSU, the maximum 5V drain is 2.5A. That's marginal. I have never had an Apple PSU fail, thankfully... > > > that _crazy_ slot addressing scheme > > That scheme is actually pretty clever. I can put a disk controller > in slot 5, type "CATALOG,S5" and look at a drive connected to it. > No DIPswitches to set, no BIOS to modify. I dislike 'geographical addressing' schemes in general. I'd rather have all my peripherals at fixed addresses no matter how I put the cards in the box. Also, geographical addressing limits the maximum number of slots you can have (something I tend to run out of on all my machines....) > I can put a printer card in slot 4, type "PR#4", and now all redirected > to the printer. I can put a serial card in slot 1, > type "IN#1", and now a keyboard hooked to a terminal on the serial OS-9, one of my favourite micro OS's has a very nice way of handling this. Suppose you want to add a serial card based on the 6551. You can have a _generic_ 6551 driver that has no idea of the address of your card, and then a device descriptor that contains the address and the paramter table (baud rate, whether you want a LF after a CR, a pause at the end of a screen,etc). Although most hackers used the standard assembler to make descriptors, it would be trivial to make a 'user friendly' installation tool. IMHO that's a much nicer way to do it than the Apple method which means you have to know which slot each card is in (and, in a lot of cases there are 'standard' slots for particular cards that you'd better stick to. What do you do if you want _2_ 80 column displays in the same machine? One in slot 3, what about the other one). > > and the saving on chips/PSU consumption by switching the power line to > > the I/O card ROM > > Which I/O card is this? I've never seen anything quite like this on > any of my peripherals (or if I have, I haven't noticed over the past > 20 years.) I have certainly seen 3rd party cards that did this. I forget the manufacturer, but they made a serial card using a real UART and a 9511 arithmetic copro card. I can look it up for you. There was a note in the manual on how to disable this 'feature' if you wanted to put RAM in the ROM sockets. I thought Apple did this on some of their cards. I will have to check my schematics. > > > Saving components is only 'good' when it doesn't affect performance. I am > > not convinced that this is the case with the Apple ][ > > Oh - you'd have preferred Wozniak to use single-density FM, getting > only 90kbytes per 5.25" floppy, over the GCR which lets you get As it happens, yes I would if it meant I could transfer data to just about any other machine of the time. > 140K? Or you'd rather lose some CPU cycles in order to refresh the > RAM, because your preferred memory-mapped screen layout wouldn't > allow the video circuitry to do it? Oh come on. You can scramble the address lines to the _RAM_ so that all cells get refreshed in a sufficiently short time and still have a linear address map as seen by the processor if you add a few more TTL chips. I've seen it done on countless other micros. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 22 17:06:12 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: bibliography References: <9706221534.AA09292@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33ADA1D4.625A@ndirect.co.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > What do you think of this bibliography? Have I missed any important book > > on the subject? Please help me in making this a useful refence for > > everybody to use, if you care. Thank you > > > > - An introduction to microcomputers (vol.0) by Adam Osborne, self > > published in 1977 > > An excellent book - but why do you leave out the other more > technical books by Osborne? Some of them go into great depth > in comparing some of the more bizarre early microcomputer chips > with very similar minis of the time. Because as it is written in the title this is a Historic HOME Computers bibliography. > > And there's one obvious book missing from your list: _The Soul > of a New Machine_, by Tracy Kidder. Maybe the reason it's missing > is because your list is so obviously biased towards tiny home > computers, but anyone who's interested in the culture of a > typical minicomputer manufacturer would love Kidder's book. Same answer as above. Perhaps someone could do another one for minis. enrico > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 22 17:14:38 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Cocos References: <01BC7EDA.AE0BA3E0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> <33b15579.755586@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33ADA3CE.50CD@ndirect.co.uk> Benedict Chong wrote: > > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 07:01:08 -0500, you wrote: > > %Yes, that's correct. Over in the UK you had the Dragon, a neat > little machine. > > The dragon was the first computer I bought. I had the French version, > with a Peritel output. Paid 3000FF for it. > > To think that I sold it 5 months later. > > Ah, the stupidity and shortsightedness of youth.... > > Ben I have got plenty of Dragons 32 or 64 for sale/trade/swap if you want them. I need an IBM Junior and an Apple II. enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 22 17:18:42 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: bibliography(ies) References: <199706221709.AA24998@world.std.com> Message-ID: <33ADA4C2.5D39@ndirect.co.uk> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > HOME & PERSONAL COMPUTERS HISTORY BIBLIOGRAPHY > > > > Books listed as TITLE, AUTHOR, PUBLISHER AND PUBLICATION DATE > > An excellent list! > > I'd like to point out that between 77-81 timeframe you have a huge hole as > there was an explosion of books about microcomputers. > > Allison Yes, I know but I was trying to list only the essentials and those which deal with the history of the home computers. I ahve tones of the others (at least 200) but they are too specific. enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 22 17:09:34 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: bibliography References: <33AD0BCE.6207@ndirect.co.uk> <33AD4B9F.471D@rain.org> Message-ID: <33ADA29E.706A@ndirect.co.uk> Marvin wrote: > > e.tedeschi wrote: > > > > What do you think of this bibliography? Have I missed any important book > > on the subject? Please help me in making this a useful refence for > > everybody to use, if you care. Thank you > > > > One book that seems to be missing is a book published in about 1993 by > Stan Veit that talks about the history of microcomputing (sorry, don't > recall the title off hand.) A number of the articles were printed in > the Computer Shopper before the book was published and the information > was excellent. You are right. Funnily enough I had a breaf (postal) affair with Stan and he promised to send me a copy of his book in exchange for one of mine (about collecting Sinclair products an, of course, Sinclair computers). enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 22 17:25:38 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: bibliography References: <199706221821.OAA23664@granite.sentex.net> Message-ID: <33ADA662.BCA@ndirect.co.uk> Commercial Computing Museum wrote: > > What a wonderful idea. Such a list is ideal for a web site. I will gather a > few more titles (espeically biographical books by and about CEO's from NCR, > Raytheon, GE, DEC, etc.) and send them off to you. > > Kevin Hold it! This list is for HOME computers ONLY. You could do another one for minis (in fact that would be very useful but only if you do one for the HISTORY of them as otherwise there would be too many specific titles). I see that now we seem to get on the right track.....Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 17:35:34 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) In-Reply-To: <199706220646.XAA00883@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Olminkhof wrote: > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Olminkhof wrote: > > > keyboard 4k version, a CBM 3032 and a CBM 8032 hulk. I suspect they > will > > > always be around because they are so hard to destroy. The case is very > > > solid. I found the "hulk" in a paddock, like some people find ancient > cars! > > > I've never attempted to power this one up though. > > > > I take "paddock" is Strine for "junkyard", and open to the elements? > > "paddock" is an english word for a place where animals graze. Who said classiccmp isn't open to other cultures? That's a cultural exchange if I ever saw one. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 22 17:55:19 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Cocos In-Reply-To: <33ADA3CE.50CD@ndirect.co.uk> References: <01BC7EDA.AE0BA3E0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> <33b15579.755586@smtp.ix.netcom.com> <33ADA3CE.50CD@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33b4ac8a.3048632@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 22:14:38 +0000, you wrote: %I have got plenty of Dragons 32 or 64 for sale/trade/swap if you want %them. I need an IBM Junior and an Apple II. We're on different sides of the Atlantic. Actually, I'm on the east side of the Pacific, so it'd be difficult to actually exchange anything. Looking at the list of articles, there's an answer I owe you regarding the old microprocessors. Go and buy an issue of Elektor from the nearest WHSmith and see if you can order some back issues from the early 1990s. Look for two page ads with lots of component listings. One of the companies is the one that used to advertise older microprocessors. I haven't bought an issue of Elektor for many years now, so don't know if the company is still around. Ben From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 17:51:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Cocos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > IIRC, there was some debate in the _really_ early rainbow magazines. > (Or maybe it was in the 80 Micros. I have those, I'll have to check > later.) They were trying to decide a nickname for the Colour > Computer. I don't remember off hand what some of the other candidates > were, but there were some people who thought CoCo was too 'cute' or > non-business like or some such. I've always held the nickname as being rather obnoxious. Calling it the "COC" would have been more masculine and macho! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From maynard at jmg.com Sun Jun 22 18:33:13 1997 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: bibliography In-Reply-To: <9706221534.AA09292@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > What do you think of this bibliography? Have I missed any important book > > on the subject? Please help me in making this a useful refence for > > everybody to use, if you care. Thank you > > > > - An introduction to microcomputers (vol.0) by Adam Osborne, self > > published in 1977 > > An excellent book - but why do you leave out the other more > technical books by Osborne? Some of them go into great depth > in comparing some of the more bizarre early microcomputer chips > with very similar minis of the time. The whole Adam Osborne 'microcomputers' series are *still* valuable books as technical trainers. I used to have the series, but for some reason have only book 0 left. I wish they would be reissued with a bent towards the home computer hobbyist as it was. Even just republishing the old series would probably be a money maker as, no doubt, there are many who still remember the quality of his books. If anyone wishes to sell any Osborne titles, especially from the 'microcomputer' series, I'm a buyer. Maynard From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 22 18:41:37 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > The Color Computers were: > > Color Computer 1: Silver/black, 4K-64K > > Color Computer 2: White, 4K-64K > I have a CoCo2 that's yellow, and I don't think it's from aging. The plastic they made the case for the Color Computer 2 started out white in every example I've ever seen, but it definitely yellows with age and exposure to light. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 18:35:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: <33b16772.489808903@mail.capital.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Frank Peseckis wrote: > Sam, if you are planning to add up the count-me-in's for the palmtops > and act as the representative to buy a bunch from Mike as a single lot > for people on the list who express interest, count me in for two of > them. > > If this does happen, how do you want to handle the logistics of > payment and shipping? Not sure yet. Off hand I would think maybe we can organize a distrubution system where we would send a bunch off to people in different parts of the country and then have them re-distribute. On second thought, that sounds too complicated. I wouldn't be adverse to taking the whole lot and then re-sending them out to everyone, but that sounds like a lot of work for me. Not sure yet. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 18:53:09 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Classsic Computing Newsgroup revisited In-Reply-To: <33AD8ABC.6F05@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > About a month or two back we were discussing starting a newsgroup for > classic computer collectors. I just wanted to mention there is a > somewhat related newsgroup on the net that could use some activity: > > alt.technology.obsolete > > I am for it, I have it on my news sites to check and in the last few > months I have maybe seen three messages in it (two being multi-newsgroup > spams) > > Whaddya guys (and gals) think? Sounds lie a plan. The trick is to get the word out. Perhaps a carefully placed message in alt.computers.folklore will get some people to check it out and start contributing. Larry, perhaps you could post a message proclaiming that you are commandeering alt.technology.obsolete for the discussion of old computers and if nobody objects, its ours. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jun 22 22:08:03 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Current wanted list References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F9DF61@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33ADE893.3946@unix.aardvarkol.com> I've seen numerous people mention finding Apple ///'s that they found or saw, and was wondering if someone would be willing to make a deal on one or pick one up? That or I'd like to find just about any make micro from the mid to late 70's since that is one era that my collection totally lacks examples of. Thanks. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 (corrected URL) From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 18:49:04 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Label Remover In-Reply-To: <199706221844.3985@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > There was a thread here a few weeks back about dealing with those sticky > labels that seem to accumulate on classic computers. > > I've just bought a can of a substance called 'Electrolube (the brand name) > Label Remover'. You spray it on, wait a few minutes, and rub the label > off. I used it yesterday to remove some _strong_ double-sided adhesive > tape inside my laser printer, and it did the job extremely well. > > The can claims that it may attack some plastics (so take care on classic > micro cases!), and it's not that cheap (\pounds 4.00 for a small-ish > spraycan from Maplin). But it certainly does the job. Ok, I've stumbled across some good shit. It's called Trichlorethane (I may be wrong about the name) but it's basically supposed to be used as a VCR/VTR head cleaner but is also used as a general cleaner/degreaser. It takes tape spooge off like it was nothing. There is also a product called Blue Shower and Blue Shower II which also makes great cleaners, but they are expensive. I bought an 8oz can of Blue Shower II for $12.90 and was done with it in under 5 minutes trying to remove some tape spooge from a computer case. Not worth the price in my opinion as it didn't do a very good job. I then found out quite by accident that rubbing alcohol works well for removing tape spooge if used in large volume. I spilled about 4 oz. of rubbing alcohol on my garage floor and sopped it up with a rag. Figuring I might as well use it, I started rubbing the tape spooge on the case and it came off quite easily. Try it sometime. I'll verify the generic name of the cleaner I mentioned above. The real stuff was banned because of its tendency to contribute to the ever-widening hole in the ozone layer, but the spray product they have now is effective at removing all sorts of grime. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 19:04:52 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706221951.4344@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > from, there are compnents of computers that are shear art as the disk > > controller in the apple II (from what I read the board was drawn 'not > > I'll have to disagree with you there. IMHO the Disk II controller is > nothing other than a kludge. It could certainly have done with a track 0 > sensor (that would have stopped the heads from banging on start-up). And, > as a hardware designer, I don't like designs where most of the > functionality is handled in software. Blasphemer! No really though, if you must call the Disk ][ controller a kludge, at least qualify it by calling it a beautiful kludge, which it is. Also, having software control over the disk drive is not a bad thing at all. It allowed you to play directly with the bits on the disks and make your own disk formats. It provided years of fun and challenge during my teenage days trying to crack the ever-more-complicated disk copy protection schemes that the software houses kept creating by way of being able to control the disk circuitry from software. > > totally in the dark about). Case in point, Exidy Sorceror, I purchased > > one and sent it to Sam Ismael, he is now looking for information, not > > very many people ever seen one, much less an ad for one, sometimes the > > Somewhere I have a Techref for the Sorceror, and one for the S100 adapter > for it. I also have some user group newsletters, etc. Feel free to pester > me on this list if you want me to dig this stuff out. > > BTW, it's not up for grabs. I need it to maintain my Sorceror :-) Tony, any information you can e-mail me or send me concerning the Sorcerer would be appreciated. I need information about the power requirements, plus just general information such as how much RAM it came with, processor type, built-in languages, etc. Thanks. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jrice at texoma.net Sun Jun 22 19:27:00 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:32 2005 Subject: CoCo Kits Message-ID: <33ADC2D4.6A5B78@texoma.net> I have an unusual CoCo 2...it was produced as a kit form. I bought it at a RS tent sale in Dallas in 1985-86. I thought it was a plug in the boards kit, but when I got it home it was totally bare boards. Took several hours of soldering to complete. I was told by a friend who was a RS manager, that they were a pilot program for schools to have classes assemble the machines and then the school would have alow cost path to getting more computers. Tandy later decided that this would be a warranty nightmare and sold the kits for $20 at the tent sale. From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 22 19:32:28 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > > [re; CoCo Max cartridge] > > > The cartridge is a high-resolution joystick interface that worked with > > > (if you had a Multi-pak Interface) the CoCo-Max drawing program. Mine > > > was stolen ten years ago, but it was a very nice system. > > Were the standard joysticks from Radio Shack not hi-res enough to use for > > drawing? > > The same joysticks were used, though the Deluxe type were better -- the > CoCo Max interface was realy good "fine tuning", it read and interpreted > the position better. To clarify things a little bit, the regular joystick ports resolved to values of 0-63 horizontally and vertically. This was great for games, but totally inadequate for fine detail in the higher graphic resolutions, i.e. 256x192. I absolutely cannot recall what range of values the Coco-Max interface resolved, but it was at least 256x256. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jun 22 19:33:52 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: bibliography Message-ID: <199706230037.RAA14019@mx5.u.washington.edu> Anyone want some DEC Rainbow software? I have Symphony, plus some accounting stuff and misc manuals. Pay shipping (from Ohio, USA) and it's yours. I know where there are some Rainbow macines which could be had for next to nothing, if anyone wants. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 22 20:42:37 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Free DRI, CP/M, MP/M etc. docs Message-ID: <9706230042.AA00649@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 902 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/fc6d2466/attachment-0001.ksh From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 22 19:45:06 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: <199706140251.WAA17501@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Brett once stated: > > I have a pristene TI Xenix 386DX16 system. > > The first is via sendmail. There used to be a way to get into a debugging > > The second requires the Intel 386 Assembly and assumes you have fingerd > running (has to be fingerd). What this entails is feeding the fingerd Networking was not part of the standard Xenix distribution in those days, so both of those holes are unlikely to be available. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sun Jun 22 19:57:39 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Shipping Abroad, bla, bla, bla Message-ID: <33ADCA03.2E58@oboe.calpoly.edu> Thought I would toss out some of my experiences with shipping out of the country. I've sold a few items to various people in other countries (not all computer stuff though). Only problem I've had was waiting for payment. Sometimes it's not sent, sometimes it get's lost. The buyer covers shipping and any taxes/duty when they get delivery. Japan: I sold a couple old Apples as I think they're pretty popular for collectibles there. Hard to find. Some people I sold to were US citizens living there. Shipping is cheapest via USPS slow boat and the customs paperwork is one small form. Australia: Sold some small stuff. Payment arrived faster than most US mail. Shipping is cheap for under 4 lbs "small packets" via USPS and again Customs is a piece of cake. Europe: Austria, Italy. They seem to have a problem with the mail. I sold some cheaper stuff so the buyer sent a money order - lost. Then he sent cash - lost. Ended up wiring the money. According to him he sent out 12 payments at one time and 5 never arrived at the destination. I'd say wiring money is better. Again customs is easy. USPS tells you what to fill out. Canada: Piece of cake. Just be honest on the contents/value. Guam: Shipping is really cheap because its serviced by USPS. Like mailing within the continental US! There was some controversy a while back about exporting collectibles. Supposedly you could buy a concours collector's car for $20k, ship it to europe or Japan and sell it for $50k. Some collectors thought this was treason or something. I really don't know. What I usually sell doesn't fall into any "rare" category and most of it was sold all over the world anyway, just in lesser quantities or slightly different versions. One guy I sold to was in the US. I asked him why he was buying a pile of old Apples, he was putting together complete systems and shipping them to Japan. Funny, Apple had/has a ton of manufacturing in Japan. I wonder if they limit sales there. From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 19:15:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: <199706222042.PAA15389@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 starling@umr.edu wrote: > Are these the same as the Panasonic HHC? I've got a couple of those. > They look like a glorified calculator (but wide and short instead of long > and skinny) with a QWERTY on it... one-line display, and they take > programs in the form of ROM chips that you actually plug into the sockets > in the back of the bugger. One of mine I got from a guy who used to work I was assuming it was as you describe, and thus the same machine. I'll find out for sure though. The one you describe is the one I want, and hopefully is the same as the ones Mike has/ Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 22 19:52:18 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: A trip back in time in Boston In-Reply-To: <9706141443.AA23097@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I personally disagree with the "highly modified" == "not a museum piece". > Museums which insist on having early computers be "as shipped from > the factory" (or, as was more often the case "as assembled using the > instructions") will be sorely disappointed in the event they expect > them to run when turned on. After all, other museums don't insist that their dinosaurs be "as shipped from the factory". -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 19:13:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706222036.4538@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > I can understand why the Apple ][ has a significant following - it was a > machine that was 'open', that hackers could get inside, etc. But I also > know that it's not a good piece of hardware design, and thus don't put it > high up my list of interesting machines. Ok, now you're getting downright insulting! :) On the contrary, the Apple ][ is such an interesting machine BECAUSE of the tricks the Woz used to arrive at the design. Sure its got some terrible features, especially the graphics, but they could all be overcome with clever software tricks, and that's why (in my opinion of course) the best programmers came from the Apple ][ realm. You HAD to be good. Whatever it was about the Apple ][, it still lives on today and enjoys a healthy user base. I still have mine sitting in a corner that I still fire up for various reasons (moslty nostalgia and to make copies of software for people). However, once I get around to imnplementing my grand network scheme in my office, my Apple will actually be a server on the network (via serial) that I can access to pull old files off my Sider][ harddrive. And that, incidentally, will require some clever programming. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 19:34:43 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <199706222145.4857@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > This is true, but if you want to do strange things with PC (or any other) > hardware then design the card you need. It's not that hard, and it won't > affect the machine's performance in other areas. But its much faster and easier to do it with software. One of the things that made the Apple so nice was that it was an excellent prototyping machine. You had all sorts of inputs and outputs with which to play with. You didn't need to spend time designing an interface card, the Apple was experimenter ready! Just add software. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 19:27:42 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706222121.4752@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > Yes, but it some cases the 'kludges' led to problems later on - 'trivial' > problems like a total incompatability between the Disk II and just about > any other machine in the world, 'mariginal behaviour' like a case that > overheated, a PSU that was beyond the design limit when running a system > board, language card and 1 drive, things like that that caused some > machines to crash after about 1 hour, that _crazy_ slot addressing scheme > and the saving on chips/PSU consumption by switching the power line to > the I/O card ROM - I may be old-fashioned, but I don't like driving input > pins past the supply rails..., etc > > Saving components is only 'good' when it doesn't affect performance. I am > not convinced that this is the case with the Apple ][ OK, now you're just outright wrong. I've never had any of the problems you mentioned above with any of my apples. The only problems I ever had was when I pulled the disk controller card from my ][+ when it was still powered on (I was young and lame). As far as the system over-heating, nope. Never happened. PSU beyond the design limit when running a system board? What on earth are you talking about? Crashed after an hour? Mine never, ever spontaneously crashed, and I've owned several. Crazy slot addressing scheme? I think it wored rather well. And the language card was for the ][+ to have backward compatibility with the ][. That's bad design? Actually, that's called "customer friendly". Of course, you're entitled to your opinion Tony, but I think it's driven mostly by ignorance (I don't mean that in a bad way) or just plain bad luck. > Oh, please don't think I am picking on Apple. The PERQ (my favourite > machine) has a number of _very_ marginal timings. The various CPU board > clocks are delayed with respect to each other by a string of TTL inverters > and buffers. Some memory cards will only work in landscape mode - the > timing is 'on the edge', so that the portrait mode doesn't work. And for > those that do work in portrait mode as well you often have to change a > coupld of chips to slower versions (say a 74S157 -> 74LS157) to get it to > work correctly. If what you described above is correct, then did it work? If so, it wasn't such a bad design after all, was it? If not, then yeah, the design sucked. What you describe here, in contrast to the Apple design, is in fact poor design. The Apple ][, as designed the way it was, worked fine. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 22 20:57:14 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Shipping Abroad, bla, bla, bla In-Reply-To: <33ADCA03.2E58@oboe.calpoly.edu> from "Greg Mast" at Jun 22, 97 05:57:39 pm Message-ID: <9706230057.AA11143@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1235 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/e92e6d09/attachment-0001.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 22 21:03:52 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 22, 97 05:13:49 pm Message-ID: <9706230103.AA21423@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 647 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970622/a3bd4348/attachment-0001.ksh From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 22 19:42:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706222203.4930@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > IMHO that's a much nicer way to do it than the Apple method which means > you have to know which slot each card is in (and, in a lot of cases there > are 'standard' slots for particular cards that you'd better stick to. What > do you do if you want _2_ 80 column displays in the same machine? One in > slot 3, what about the other one). That was a limitation introduced with the //e. The 80 column board had its own special slot that took over slot 3 if you had it populated. However, nothing was stopping you from putting another 80-column board (such as a Videx) in another slot and using that, although I can't think for the life of me why you'd need two 80-column cards. > > > Saving components is only 'good' when it doesn't affect performance. I am > > > not convinced that this is the case with the Apple ][ > > > > Oh - you'd have preferred Wozniak to use single-density FM, getting > > only 90kbytes per 5.25" floppy, over the GCR which lets you get > > As it happens, yes I would if it meant I could transfer data to just about > any other machine of the time. That's what serial cards and null modems are for :) (I think this discussion has acheived 'holy war' status). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Jun 22 20:36:14 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: H8 Computer In-Reply-To: <33AD6E9C.3E14@rain.org> References: <3.0.1.32.19970622111238.00f7bcc0@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970622183614.00dbe654@agora.rdrop.com> At 11:27 AM 6/22/97 -0700, you wrote: >What is a Heath H8 worth? A friend of mine turned my on to a Heathkit >H8, H19 terminal, 5 1/4" drives, 8" drives, and all manuals and docs. >The guy wants $100 for the lot and I don't know if this is reasonable or >not. I told him I am not interested in cheating or paying him a lot >less than what it might be worth, but I don't want to pay more either >:). Sigh... as with all things, it is worth as much or as little as you can obtain it for. I have nearly all of the items you have listed in my collection (except for the 8 inch drives) and it was all given to me. So, would it be worth $100 to *me*? Probably not... If I was making an offer, probably between $20-40 depending on condtion and what optional cards were included. Its worth to you? Only you can decide. >Also FWIW, he sold a Heathkit 6800 logic kit for $35 yesterday. Again, >I don't know if that is reasonable or not, but the unit did sound >interesting. See above... B^} (not sure I've ever seen one) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Sun Jun 22 20:34:58 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Classsic Computing Newsgroup revisited In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199706230134.UAA10556@fudge.uchicago.edu> Sam Ismail wrote, > Larry, perhaps you could post a message proclaiming that you are > commandeering alt.technology.obsolete for the discussion of old > computers and if nobody objects, its ours. But with alt.folklore.computers and comp.society.folklore, is there really a need for a *third* newsgroup about the history of computers? Especially one that would have a misleading name and isn't carried everywhere? eric From ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu Sun Jun 22 20:41:43 1997 From: ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu (Yujin Nagasawa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: BOOK The History of Computers Message-ID: <199706230138.VAA07887@abel.ic.sunysb.edu> It was sold out. I am sorry. Yujin ---------- > ???o?l : PG Manney > ???? : Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > ???? : Re: BOOK The History of Computers > ???M???? : 1997?N6??20?? 20:22 > > I'd like to buy. Can I reserve it? Please e-mail me with your address and > I'll send you a check. (woukd you prefer money order? some sort of trade? I > have scads of old computer stuff.) > Manney > > ---------- > > From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > To: Manney > > Subject: FS: BOOK The History of Computers > > Date: Friday, June 20, 1997 1:52 PM > > > > For Sale: > > > > The History of Computers -A Family Alubum of Computer Genealogy- > > by Les Freed > > ZD press > > ISBN 1-56276-275-3 > > all color and lots of pictures and illustrations > > > > $12 (shipping included within the United States, original price is > $24.95) > > From cerebral at michianatoday.com Sun Jun 22 21:01:07 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... Message-ID: <02010783012841@michianatoday.com> At 05:04 PM 6/22/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > >> > from, there are compnents of computers that are shear art as the disk >> > controller in the apple II (from what I read the board was drawn 'not >> >> I'll have to disagree with you there. IMHO the Disk II controller is >> nothing other than a kludge. It could certainly have done with a track 0 >> sensor (that would have stopped the heads from banging on start-up). And, >> as a hardware designer, I don't like designs where most of the >> functionality is handled in software. > >Blasphemer! No really though, if you must call the Disk ][ controller a >kludge, at least qualify it by calling it a beautiful kludge, which it is. >Also, having software control over the disk drive is not a bad thing at >all. It allowed you to play directly with the bits on the disks and make >your own disk formats. It provided years of fun and challenge during my >teenage days trying to crack the ever-more-complicated disk copy >protection schemes that the software houses kept creating by way of being >able to control the disk circuitry from software. > >> > totally in the dark about). Case in point, Exidy Sorceror, I purchased >> > one and sent it to Sam Ismael, he is now looking for information, not >> > very many people ever seen one, much less an ad for one, sometimes the >> >> Somewhere I have a Techref for the Sorceror, and one for the S100 adapter >> for it. I also have some user group newsletters, etc. Feel free to pester >> me on this list if you want me to dig this stuff out. >> >> BTW, it's not up for grabs. I need it to maintain my Sorceror :-) > >Tony, any information you can e-mail me or send me concerning the >Sorcerer would be appreciated. I need information about the power >requirements, plus just general information such as how much RAM it came >with, processor type, built-in languages, etc. Thanks. > >Sam Hello there, I an fairly new here, but I am interested in all kinds of hardware and software hacks. Someone out there mentioned the 'sophistication' of the Apple ]['s video addressing, saying that the RAM refresh steals CPU cycles, Apples method is worse than a kludge, it was simply a crufted idea. yes, the Disk II is an elegent kludge,as ALL of my homebrewed electronic gear are kludges just to make them work!. My first computer was a Commodore 64, and comparing it to apples(not oranges :0) the 64 is WAY more advanced, and it too shares a medium populated motherboard. I can do 90% of the multimedia stuff on the 64 as you can with a P-133! my point being, the Apple and 64 both had 6502 compatible proccessors, but the 6510 used by the 64 has smarter memory mangament, and it is fast enough to refresh the ram AND do sprite graphics AND use bit mapped memory. adding perhiperals to the 64 via the serial bus worked NICE, and I can prove history is repeating itself. Look at the new USB (Universal Serial Bus) standard, where they want to run evrything from keyboards, mice, modems etc... the Wintel croud calls it BRAND NEW IDEA, but we did this 10 years or more ago. I got a good taste of Apple's machines in school, and they were ok, but nothing I would ever try to own. the only drawback to the C=64 is that it did not have an expansion bus built in, however it did have a expansion connector which you can hook up a passive backplane to. I dont have much classic stuff but here is what I have: 3 CoCo's, one with 1 floppy drive, all 16K machines. the floppy drive as sold by radio shack is actually an IBM compatible 5.25 drive! the ONLY difference is an attempt by radio shack to foil anyone trying to USE off the shelf floppy drives by placing the ribbon connector on the opposite side, and because of this, the data cable was too short to connect the normal drive. But the controller card and pinouts are all the same IBM standard. The reason was that radio scrap wanted to charge you $400 for adding a drive that costed $50 max at the time. so IBM drives are not limited and can be used in any way, it just takes more hacker skill to implement it. 3 Commodore 64's, one is souped up with JiffyDOS, 1 meg REU, and 1.6 MEG floppy drive. 2 Commodore 128's both work and was extensively used, and because of this, they are on the verge of expiring... the keyboards on the 128's were never as durable as the 64's. 1 IBM XT works, but needs XT keyboard. 1 IBM 286-12, works too, and loaded with MORE TTL than the XT was.... Now the rest of the bunch are not classic, but I will place them here to make the list complete. 1 Acer 386-33, used as a file server 1 home built AMD 586 machine which is what I am composing this message from. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 22 21:21:38 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Apple ][ design (was: Bad feelings) Message-ID: <199706230221.AA22266@world.std.com> I never thought much of the apple design save for it was there and successful by the only standard that counts...they sold like hotcakes. It's not a technical judgement as that really didn't count! there were some machines I considered poor, TRS-80-M1, at a time when z80 was minimally 2mhz and many pushing 2.5 it plodded at 1.7, but it was a complete machine for much less than many of it's kind and available through a nationally known store. Price vs performance _and_ popularity drove a market not real technology. If it was useable and met the current market expectations it sold well. If there was one significant impact apple made it was in the idea of low cost software. Apples were not the home of $350 basic interpreters or $500 compilers. But at one time I counted not less that 5 distictly different OSs. Some were pretty poor but the drive to improve the beast was there. Allison From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Jun 22 21:26:10 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706221951.4344@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <33AD808B.1972@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970622192610.00dbeb70@agora.rdrop.com> At 08:51 PM 6/22/97 BST, you wrote: >> I think that may be personal views by individual collectors and not by >> the group in whole. Some feel that not having 'original parts' or >> add-ons is blasphmey. I can understand and appreciate where you come > >Hmmm... I see nothing wrong with replacing components in a system - that, >to me, is a natural thing that would have happened to the machine when it >was in use. I can understand people who feel differently, though. > >> from, there are compnents of computers that are shear art as the disk >> controller in the apple II (from what I read the board was drawn 'not > >I'll have to disagree with you there. IMHO the Disk II controller is >nothing other than a kludge. It could certainly have done with a track 0 >sensor (that would have stopped the heads from banging on start-up). And, >as a hardware designer, I don't like designs where most of the >functionality is handled in software. Ok, as much as I've tried to restrain myself from getting drawn into any of these 'no-win' threads, I'm going to toss out some comments here. Be warned however, I'm not going to spend a lot of follow-up time trying to defend or explain my positions, so take them for what they are worth. (exactly what you paid for them!) [SOAPBOX MODE ON!] you *have* been warned! First: there has been a good bit of going on about how bad various designs are or were. (latest example above) My take: it's all a pointless waste of bandwidth! It's all too easy to look back on designs and decisions that are 20+ years old and declare them to be "bad" or "deficient", or whatever your favourite derogatory phrase is, but if you were around then and so darn advanced in design and implementation, why didn't you jump in with the "better" design, make *lots* of money, and bump Bill Gates off his throne? When the Apple Disk II came out, most of us in the business at the time were amazed that a disk controller could be fully implemented (from a hardware standpoint) in only 8 chips (!) *none* of which had more than 16 legs! Before you go snarfing about how "bad" it is, look at what else was available during the same period! 50 to 80 chips, LSI contoller chips, power regulators, and still a pot of supporting software! Or the original Altair design. Yes, it was less than "optimal". If you knew the history behind it, you would know that the cpu baord design was copied almost verbatim from the Intel 8080 design books. What else was out there at the time? Updates and changes were published generally as they were worked out. Does that make the unit "bad"? Or the designers of the time "stupid"? Gee, where *were* the "experts" in 8080 system design in 1975??? If the designs in the Intel books were so "bad", obviously *they* did not have too many experts either! Next: there seems to be a *lot* of thrashing over these percieved cross-national/cultural/"it takes too long to get a reply"/"why are you ignoring me" 'slights'. My take: BULL! A mailing list is like a group of voulenteers, they do what they can, when they can, and *if* they want! Sorry if you don't like this, but I see on average 130-150 messages a DAY from this list and the others that I *need* to review for my real life job, and I can't always get to every thing that passes by my screen! Not that I *should* either. I tend *not* to comment on things that I don't have a fair knowledge base on. I suspect a lot of people on this list operate in a similar fashion. If I have something to say on a topic, I will if I have time or I might file it away in my "to do" file and get back to it later. Do I forget messages from time to time, yes. Do I decide to just not answer a message from time to time, yes. Am I going to waste a lot of time feeling guilty about it? NO! Unless I missed something in the lists charter, *no one* here is *obligated* to do *anything*! Same with selling/trading/shipping gear. If it is worth it *to me*, I'll do it. If not, sorry but its my choice! I don't much care who you are, where you are, or what you want! (hell, I've turned down offers from Bill Gates!) *If* it is worthwhile to me, and I believe that I can get the item to/from a point intact, fine. I'll probably do it. If not, thanks for the interest and have a nice day. If you don't like it and want to start a flame war, go right ahead but you will do it *without* me! (for the most part) (trying to calm down now...) Let's get this list back to its intended purpose. If people want to bicker over procedures, policies, or who offended who, take it to alt.flame, take it offline or take it private! I for one don't want to waste time wading through the politics and drivel! No one *has* to be here, and if things don't start calming down and getting back on track, soon no one will... [SOAPBOX MODE OFF] -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From william at ans.net Sun Jun 22 21:31:47 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Dumpster Diving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706230231.AA03591@interlock.ans.net> > Sun hardware was damn sturdy. Their later servers - such as the > current E3000 and E4000's I don't think are really as tough as something > like one of the old 3/280's.... Man those things are tough and still in > production in rare situations. We have a 3/60 in production just to gdb > code because our 680x0 cross development/emulation platform doesn't handle > debuggers terribly well. I have a 3/280 (or 4/280) and I must admit that it _is_ built like a battleship (well, as far as computers go). It is a big rackmount VME system, originally used for server work. I rarely use mine, as it is a real power sucker (32 megs made of 256K DRAMs has something to do with that). Note that many late model Sun-3s can be converted to SPARCs with a simple card swap (I have both cards - a real suprise when I opened the machine the first time, expecting to find Motorola). Of all of the early SPARCs (Sun-4), SPARCstation 370s and 470s seem to be the most common. They also tend to be cheap, as Solaris no longer supports the early architecture. They also make fine furniture (they are quite large, and have a power supply you can nearly weld with). Sun really knows how to make nice looking machines - their designer seems to be rebelling against the "round" look - take a look at just about any Ultra and you will see what I mean. > > Does anyone have a timeline for Sun machines and OS's? > > > No, but I think you might want to check the Sun Hardware Reference > FAQ available at: Is there a similar FAQ for _old_ SGIs? "This Old SGI" starts with the MIPs architecture, but I need help with a much older IRIS 2500T. William Donzelli william@ans.net From spc at armigeron.com Sun Jun 22 21:48:22 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 22, 97 05:42:12 pm Message-ID: <199706230248.WAA15427@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Sam Ismail once stated: > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > IMHO that's a much nicer way to do it than the Apple method which means > > you have to know which slot each card is in (and, in a lot of cases there > > are 'standard' slots for particular cards that you'd better stick to. What > > do you do if you want _2_ 80 column displays in the same machine? One in > > slot 3, what about the other one). > > That was a limitation introduced with the //e. The 80 column board had > its own special slot that took over slot 3 if you had it populated. > However, nothing was stopping you from putting another 80-column board > (such as a Videx) in another slot and using that, although I can't think > for the life of me why you'd need two 80-column cards. > Debugging. You can run your program on one screen, and have debugging output/debugger output on the second screen. I did that once on a PS/2 when I was writing code to manage the 8514 display. It was very nice to see not only the output, but have the debugger not munging the display. -spc (Could easily get addicted to a system with duo displays) From william at ans.net Sun Jun 22 22:16:55 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <02010783012841@michianatoday.com> Message-ID: <199706230316.AA05134@interlock.ans.net> > history is repeating itself. Look at the new USB (Universal Serial Bus) > standard, where they want to run evrything from keyboards, mice, modems > etc... the Wintel croud calls it BRAND NEW IDEA, but we did this 10 years or > more ago. This is no suprise. Most of what _any_ computer manufacturer calls a "BRAND NEW IDEA" generally turns out to be something done years ago by someone else. Micros and microprocessors tend to be the most guilty, minis a bit less. Just about everything in the industry was tried at some point by IBM, Xerox, or the BUNCH. Yes, there are plenty of true innovations today, but most are simply hype... William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Sun Jun 22 22:37:00 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Drives are gone! In-Reply-To: <33AD4D5D.5284@rain.org> Message-ID: <199706230337.AA05637@interlock.ans.net> Thank you to all that re-responded. The drives will be used on some old workstations - DEC, Sun, and Apollo. More freebies to follow. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Sun Jun 22 22:39:20 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Univac Card Punch Base In-Reply-To: <33AD4D5D.5284@rain.org> Message-ID: <199706230339.AA05689@interlock.ans.net> > Anyone have any use for or want a Univac Card Punch Base? I bought this > thing probably 15 or 20 years ago before I started collecting, tore it > apart and threw away the main unit and kept the base which I used as a > desk. I kind of hate to toss it and I would MUCH prefer to give it > away. Is anything left of the electronics? RCS/RI has one of these things that may be missing parts. Finding replacements may be a REAL problem. I should do a quick audit of our unit, and let you know if we need anything. Where are you located? William Donzelli william@ans.net From KFergason at aol.com Sun Jun 22 23:11:48 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 needs home Message-ID: <970623001147_-1864698027@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-22 22:13:42 EDT, you write: << Have a mint condition Kaypro 10, complete with all manuals. Looks like it came out of the box. Works great, all original software. If you know of anyone who has a serious interest, please e-mail me. Don Sarno >> I would be interested. what are you looking for? Kelly From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 22 23:26:55 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Univac Card Punch Base References: <199706230339.AA05689@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <33ADFB0F.A38@rain.org> William Donzelli wrote: > > > Anyone have any use for or want a Univac Card Punch Base? I bought this > > Is anything left of the electronics? RCS/RI has one of these things that > may be missing parts. Finding replacements may be a REAL problem. > No, I am afraid not, the ONLY thing left is the metal base. When I moved about 1981, I had to get rid of a bunch of stuff and everything on that card punch except the base went. I have been using the base as a table for quite a while and NEED to make room. From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jun 22 23:34:50 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: "A.R. Duell"'s message of Sun, 22 Jun 1997 22:45:38 BST References: <199706222145.4857@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199706230434.VAA21830@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "A.R. Duell" writes: > I've never liked bit-banged serial ports either (except on > microcontrollers). They always seem to have problems with full-duplex > operation. Yes, Apple sold a bit-banged serial port for a time - I have > one with the manual (which, amazingly contains instructions on linking it > to an ASR33), presumably to save a UART chip. They then sold one that > worked properly (in full-duplex mode, etc) under the name 'super serial > card'. It used (IIRC) a 6850 chip (or was it a 6551?) Hmm? What was that bit-banged serial port? If you look in the Apple ][ red book, there is a little circuit in there that plugs into the game I/O connector and drives a 20mA current loop. Alongside there is a short assembly program to drive it. Now there is a bit-banger. There was an unspectacular serial card for the ][. I don't recall it being a bit banger, just that the combination of it and the printer I was using at the time (an IDS BrighterWriter) wasn't smart enough to manage any sort of common flow control, so that I had to run it at 300 baud. I thought it had some sort of UART-like thing, but maybe my brain is going again. Hmm, I think it was called the Asynchronous Serial Interface or something like that. There was also a Synchronous Serial Interface that (I recently found out) was the Silentype printer interface. I don't remember the Mountain Hardware CPS card that well, and I feel very good about that based on what I do remember. Now there was a klu[d]ge. The Apple Super Serial Card was designed around a 6551. There were a couple of other cards designed around the 6850. The Hayes Micromodem ][ was one of these. ... Strange as it seems today (now that I have done some programming around PC-contemptible serial ports), the Apple ][ serial cards and software generally worked by software-polling-hardware. The only serial card I can remember supporting interrupts was the Super Serial Card, and I can't say that I ever saw it used that way. Certainly none of the "standard" software required it; interrupts just weren't generally done on Apple ][s. -Frank McConnell From maynard at jmg.com Sun Jun 22 23:57:29 1997 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970622183614.00dbe654@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: OK, I just got my first decent item since I stopped collecting several years ago. This is an original apple II, serial number 7833. It came with what appears to be the Microsoft basic language card. The card contains six 24 pin sockets, five filled by PROMs (C48040; each with an APPLE 1978 sticker), a red switch on the back, and another sticker on the board's surface reading: 851. Just below that sticker printed on the card it says ROM CARD 600. There's also a disk II interface card, circa '78, but the drive itself was unavailable. Could someone verify if that card *is* the Integer BASIC replacement, or Microsoft BASIC? The motherboard is functional, video works just fine, it seems filled out with 48K of that old Military grade metal topped RAM; obviously the PSU is good. The keyboard is a mess, hoewver. It's been sitting in a basement for years, so many keys have gummed up; some seem to have been in a perpetual depressed state waiting out obsolesence like Atlas. The machine itself is filthy. The plastic case has just burned in grime from years of use and then even more years of basement ambiance. I'm guessing that some folks here may know a bit more about system restoration. Mind if I ask a few questions? How do I go about cleaning this without destroying the case? Does anyone know of some good solvents or cleaners for plastic? Can I pull a keytop off the keyboard without destroying the key? If it's really bad I guess I could change keyboards - but I'd really like to attempt to get this guy working, as it was the original. And then there's stuff: I lack a floppy disk drive. Hmmm... how rare is hard disk technology that will work with this apple? Hahaha, here's a good one: does anyone know if ever there's been manufactured 10base-T cards, or am I just dreaming here? If so, guess I'll be looking for a SuperSerial card as well. And basic 'dumb' (no time to RTFM quite yet!!) questions: How do I get out of the ROM monitor into BASIC? I guess I need some basic DOCS here as well as a good technical reference, huh?. I figure most of the 'stuff' can be had on comp.sys.apple2.marketplace and the M.I.T. flea fest approaching on July 20. If anyone wishes, however, please feel free to offer items for sale. I want to get this computer clean and *functional*, but I'm also not in a hury to do it tomorrow. ;-) Price: I got it FREE! 8-)) And the guy couldn't imagine why I'd want it!!! J. Maynard Gelinas From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 23 02:04:34 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) References: Message-ID: <33AE2002.34F5@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Olminkhof wrote: > > > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Olminkhof wrote: > > > > keyboard 4k version, a CBM 3032 and a CBM 8032 hulk. I suspect they > > will > > > > always be around because they are so hard to destroy. The case is very > > > > solid. I found the "hulk" in a paddock, like some people find ancient > > cars! > > > > I've never attempted to power this one up though. > > > > > > I take "paddock" is Strine for "junkyard", and open to the elements? > > > > "paddock" is an english word for a place where animals graze. > > Who said classiccmp isn't open to other cultures? That's a cultural > exchange if I ever saw one. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass This is STILL an American computer. You seem not to be interested in others like the Sopectrum, the BBC, Oric Atmos, Camputers Linx, Oric 1, Jupiter Ace etc. enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 23 02:07:04 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Cocos References: <01BC7EDA.AE0BA3E0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> <33b15579.755586@smtp.ix.netcom.com> <33ADA3CE.50CD@ndirect.co.uk> <33b4ac8a.3048632@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33AE2098.2D37@ndirect.co.uk> Benedict Chong wrote: > > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997 22:14:38 +0000, you wrote: > > %I have got plenty of Dragons 32 or 64 for sale/trade/swap if you want > > %them. I need an IBM Junior and an Apple II. > > We're on different sides of the Atlantic. Actually, I'm on the east > side of the Pacific, so it'd be difficult to actually exchange > anything. Why? There is such a thing (invented in England) collect MAIL. > > Looking at the list of articles, there's an answer I owe you regarding > the old microprocessors. Go and buy an issue of Elektor from the > nearest WHSmith and see if you can order some back issues from the > early 1990s. Look for two page ads with lots of component listings. > One of the companies is the one that used to advertise older > microprocessors. I haven't bought an issue of Elektor for many years > now, so don't know if the company is still around. Good suggestion, I will ask some of my friends to see if they have any at home. Thanks. enrico > > Ben -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 23 02:09:34 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Cocos References: Message-ID: <33AE212E.7929@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > > IIRC, there was some debate in the _really_ early rainbow magazines. > > (Or maybe it was in the 80 Micros. I have those, I'll have to check > > later.) They were trying to decide a nickname for the Colour > > Computer. I don't remember off hand what some of the other candidates > > were, but there were some people who thought CoCo was too 'cute' or > > non-business like or some such. > > I've always held the nickname as being rather obnoxious. Calling it the > "COC" would have been more masculine and macho! > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Ah! Yes, but very few men would have bought it... enrico From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 23 02:13:41 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Current wanted list References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F9DF61@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <33ADE893.3946@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <33AE2225.7B06@ndirect.co.uk> Jeff Hellige wrote: > > I've seen numerous people mention finding Apple ///'s that they found > or saw, and was wondering if someone would be willing to make a deal on > one or pick one up? That or I'd like to find just about any make micro > from the mid to late 70's since that is one era that my collection > totally lacks examples of. Thanks. > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > (corrected URL) There are plenty around here but then ........the dreaded shipping problem of yours......... enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 23 02:24:40 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... References: Message-ID: <33AE24B8.2D70@ndirect.co.uk> Why doesn't anybody lokk at the APPLE II from the social point of view? Tgis computer, with its VISICALC, change the way offices and home businesses, worked. It has also changed the life of million of persones. It has definetely change mine. If you want to just look at its technology (which is not everyting in a machine) you should place it in the right time slot. Whet it came out there was never comparable and it remained so for a LONG time. You can STILL use it today! I mean really use it, not just power up like you do with TRS-80s and Pets. Long live the Apple II enrico From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 23 02:37:08 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... References: <33AD808B.1972@goldrush.com> <3.0.1.32.19970622192610.00dbeb70@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <33AE27A4.502@ndirect.co.uk> Jim Willing wrote: > *If* it is worthwhile to me, and I believe that I can get the item to/from > a point intact, fine. I'll probably do it. If not, thanks for the > interest and have a nice day. If you don't like it and want to start a > flame war, go right ahead but you will do it *without* me! (for the most > part) > > (trying to calm down now...) I am sorry, I did not want to answer anymore about this, BUT I must point out that, obviously, I did not make myself clear enough. I never said the things contained in your message (which I cut down to just one phrase). The whole point was NOT about shipping but about your cultural approach to collecting...but let's get down to business now (collecting that is). I am calm but disappointed... enrico From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 09:08:59 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 22, 97 5:04 pm Message-ID: <199706230808.7118@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> [Disk II] > Blasphemer! No really though, if you must call the Disk ][ controller a :-) > kludge, at least qualify it by calling it a beautiful kludge, which it is. Well, I'll agree it's a minimalist design. Beauty, however, is in the eye of the beholder. > Tony, any information you can e-mail me or send me concerning the > Sorcerer would be appreciated. I need information about the power > requirements, plus just general information such as how much RAM it came > with, processor type, built-in languages, etc. Thanks. I thought the Sorceror had an internal mains PSU and you just plugged it in. I will check before you apply 110V (or 240V) to the 5V line, though. The processor was a Z80. The only built-in 'language' was a machine code monitor. Basic and other software - I have a text editor/word processor somewhere - were in ROM cartridges that plugged into the side of the machine. These cartridges were, in fact 8-track tape cases with a little PCB inside them. > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 09:13:16 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 22, 97 5:34 pm Message-ID: <199706230813.7137@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > This is true, but if you want to do strange things with PC (or any other) > > hardware then design the card you need. It's not that hard, and it won't > > affect the machine's performance in other areas. > > But its much faster and easier to do it with software. One of the Maybe for you. I find it a lot easier to solder up a card (which has a good chance of working first or second time...) than to write and debug software. In all my recent projects the hardware (quite complex hardware - 10's of chips) has taken a lot less time than the (minimal) software. > things that made the Apple so nice was that it was an excellent > prototyping machine. You had all sorts of inputs and outputs with which > to play with. You didn't need to spend time designing an interface card, > the Apple was experimenter ready! Just add software. The standard I/O (on the games port) consisted of (IIRC) a few resitor-reading ADCs, a few single-bit inputs and a few outputs. Not a lot IMHO. The BBC micro had 8 I/O lines, another 8 outputs if you didn't use the printer port, handshake lines for all those, 4 ADC channels (10 bit, I think) _and_ a system bus with a couple of decoded chip select signals on it. That's what I call an experimenter's machine. And is it that hard to design an address decoder? It's one chip these days, probably 2 or 3 at the time the Apple 2 was 'current' > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 09:28:43 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 22, 97 5:27 pm Message-ID: <199706230828.7246@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > Yes, but it some cases the 'kludges' led to problems later on - 'trivial' > > problems like a total incompatability between the Disk II and just about > > any other machine in the world, 'mariginal behaviour' like a case that > > overheated, a PSU that was beyond the design limit when running a system > > board, language card and 1 drive, things like that that caused some > > machines to crash after about 1 hour, that _crazy_ slot addressing scheme > > and the saving on chips/PSU consumption by switching the power line to > > the I/O card ROM - I may be old-fashioned, but I don't like driving input > > pins past the supply rails..., etc > > > > Saving components is only 'good' when it doesn't affect performance. I am > > not convinced that this is the case with the Apple ][ > > OK, now you're just outright wrong. I've never had any of the problems > you mentioned above with any of my apples. The only problems I ever had OK, it appears that I had a very marginal machine. It happens. On the other hand (and I _know_ others will disagree here) I _never_ had any crashes from my TRS-80 Model 1. It was 100% stable. > was when I pulled the disk controller card from my ][+ when it was still > powered on (I was young and lame). As far as the system over-heating, > nope. Never happened. PSU beyond the design limit when running a system > board? What on earth are you talking about? Crashed after an hour? When I was having serious Apple ][ problems I measured the supply current drawn by my Apple ][ motherboard, language card and one disk. IIRC it was slightly _more_ than the rating for the PSU given in the Techref. > Mine never, ever spontaneously crashed, and I've owned several. Crazy > slot addressing scheme? I think it wored rather well. And the language > card was for the ][+ to have backward compatibility with the ][. That's > bad design? Actually, that's called "customer friendly". I never said the language card was a bad design. It was a useful piece of hardware. > > Of course, you're entitled to your opinion Tony, but I think it's driven > mostly by ignorance (I don't mean that in a bad way) or just plain bad luck. I was trying to use an Apple ][ seriously in about 1983. I had no luck at all with it. I read the TechRef, and the view I got _time and again_ was that this 'feature' existed to save a cheap TTL chip. Now, IMHO that's _not_ a good design. I can name a number of things (not Apple, not even just classic computers) that I've had to redesign because the manufacturers wanted to save a few bucks worth of components. I'd have much rather payed extra in the first place, but alas the design was driven by price. > > > Oh, please don't think I am picking on Apple. The PERQ (my favourite > > machine) has a number of _very_ marginal timings. The various CPU board > > clocks are delayed with respect to each other by a string of TTL inverters > > and buffers. Some memory cards will only work in landscape mode - the > > timing is 'on the edge', so that the portrait mode doesn't work. And for > > those that do work in portrait mode as well you often have to change a > > coupld of chips to slower versions (say a 74S157 -> 74LS157) to get it to > > work correctly. > > If what you described above is correct, then did it work? If so, it Yes, it worked. It still works 100% AFAIK > wasn't such a bad design after all, was it? If not, then yeah, the design A bad design can still work. It is just more likely to fail under strange circumstances, it's dependant on component values, etc. Apart from my bad luck on the PSU, the Apple ][ works. It still works. In that sense it was not a bad design. But if you accept that things that don't work are not simply bad designs - they're useless - then you have to find some other way to judge 'goodness'. > sucked. What you describe here, in contrast to the Apple design, is in > fact poor design. The Apple ][, as designed the way it was, worked fine. The PERQ worked as designed (or at least my 3 all do) Remember that in many areas the PERQ was pushing a 1970's design to the limits. There's a 100MHz clock on the Landscape memory board (at a time when most other manufacturers thought 20MHz was fast). There's signals on the CPU board that are skewed by 4ns - a delay that could easily have been lost by bad layout or spread of chip timings. They were trying to design a fast personal workstation, and managed to do it. The Apple ][ was not particularly fast (in the signal timings) for the time, and IMHO there's no excuse for some of the tricks that were pulled. > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 09:37:30 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <199706230434.VAA21830@daemonweed.reanimators.org>; from "Frank McConnell" at Jun 22, 97 9:34 pm Message-ID: <199706230837.7288@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> [Apple ]['s again] > Hmm? What was that bit-banged serial port? A little Apple card (Async Serial Interface or something) that contained a PROM (P8 or P8A), and a few TTL chips that formed a single-bit I/O port. There were RS232 and current loop buffers on the card. Probably about 10 chips total. I have one, and the manual which gives schematics and PROM source. > There was an unspectacular serial card for the ][. I don't recall it > being a bit banger, just that the combination of it and the printer I > was using at the time (an IDS BrighterWriter) wasn't smart enough to > manage any sort of common flow control, so that I had to run it at 300 The card I am thinking of supported no handshakes at all (well, it tied RTS to CTS and DTR to DSR and CD). XON/XOFF was sort-of supported if you went slowly enough. And for some inexplicable reason the card was wired as a _modem_ (out on 3, in on 2), not a terminal. > baud. I thought it had some sort of UART-like thing, but maybe my > brain is going again. > > Hmm, I think it was called the Asynchronous Serial Interface or That may be the same card. I tried to use one for a period to talk to a laboratory instrument. It nearly drove me mad. > something like that. There was also a Synchronous Serial Interface > that (I recently found out) was the Silentype printer interface. The Silentype card was a custom interface AFAIK. There was a synchronous serial part to that card, but it was nothing like any other synchronous interface. > -Frank McConnell -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 09:52:06 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <33AE24B8.2D70@ndirect.co.uk>; from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 23, 97 7:24 am Message-ID: <199706230852.7392@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> [Apple ][] > there was never comparable and it remained so for a LONG time. You can > STILL use it today! I mean really use it, not just power up like you do > with TRS-80s and Pets. You can still use PETs for serious work - I fired one up the other day to test an IEEE-488 interfaced instrument. The PET with its built-in Basic was the quickest way to do that (rather than to say write some Pascal on the PERQ, sort out the lack of secondary addressing in the system-supplied routines, and get it all to run). To try to defuse this Apple ][ flamefest.... I was worn out last night. I'd spent most of the weekend fixing a laserprinter (an Apple, as it happens, but the problem was in the Canon-designed engine - the Apple bits worked fine). So I probably said a few things a bit more strongly than I should have done. The Apple 2 is : An historically significant machine. No question about it. As was said in the bit that I deleted, Visicalc was the first (popular?) spreadsheet. That alone makes it an important machine An 'interesting' (even if I don't like it, I'll agree it's interesting) design. Some of Woz's designs are, well, not what I would do, but I can understand the motivation behind them. This doesn't mean I have to like them. Still useful 20 years after it was first produced. Mind you, that applies to 99% of all classic computers :-) A machine that belongs on this list. Don't think I am flaming anyone here for talking about it. And lots more besides. One thing that is possibly relevant is that I don't have _any_ modern computers. No Pentiums - my latest PC is a much-hacked PC/AT with the original type 2 motherboard. If I want to do some computing I use one of my older machines - the PC, the PERQ, the CoCo, the PDP8, the PDP11, etc. So I like machines that are 100% reliable (and my Apples never have been - maybe I should sort out what the heck is going on), and that have hardware I can get amongst, modify, etc. > > Long live the Apple II Agreed... I may not use my Apples for serious work any more, but I have no intention of getting rid of them > > enrico > > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jun 23 11:23:18 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: <9705238670.AA867090681@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Last week - while I was on holiday on the Noprfolk Broads - someone (I forget who) asked if there had ever been a microcomputer that used EBCDIC. I have an IBM System/23 (aka Datamaster) at home. It has system board, mono monitor, twin 8-inch floppies and PC-style keyboard in one box, and a printer hung off the back. It has an 8085 processor, 64k RAM and 112K ROM. The expansion slots are suspiciously IBM PC like... This box programs in BASIC (the 112k of ROM contains almost a complete mainframe basic with matrix ops, etc.) and uses EBCDIC as its character set. It has interesting features such as a file system with 8.8 character filenames (as opposed to the CPM and later 8.3 that everyone seems to use nowadays :-( ). If the printer is switched off or disconnected, it fails power on diagnostics! As I recall, I was given it by a friend at college in ?1988. He informed me that his stepfather paid L11000 (i.e. UK pounds) for it in ?1980. I once tried to get the BASIC manual out of IBM technical publications. It was out of print, so they persuaded me to shell out L30 (about $40 or $50?) for the mainframe BASIC manual. Not a good buy!!! Anyone else out there have one of these? Know any more about it? Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Das Feuer brennt, das Feuer nennt die Luft sein Schwesterelement - und frisst sie doch (samt dem Ozon)! Das ist die Liebe, lieber Sohn. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 01:42:32 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <9705238670.AA867090681@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <199706231042.GAA09736@mail.cgocable.net> Philip, Nip! > > I have an IBM System/23 (aka Datamaster) at home. It has system board, > mono monitor, twin 8-inch floppies and PC-style keyboard in one box, and > a printer hung off the back. It has an 8085 processor, 64k RAM and 112K > ROM. The expansion slots are suspiciously IBM PC like... Believe it or not, you're right in your suspicions they redesigned using this same ideas and parts that is used in this system/23 that begat first PC. Lot of signals for that slots is very close but they changed few lines and used 8088 which is cheaper to use with existing 8bit chips. From timolmst at cyberramp.net Mon Jun 23 07:56:35 1997 From: timolmst at cyberramp.net (Tim Olmstead) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Hams who collect Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970623075603.26bf10de@mailhost.cyberramp.net> At 01:25 PM 6/22/97 -0700, you wrote: >I see a number of references to people who get things at hamfests, >swapfests, and other amateur radio type events. As such, I was just >curious who out there has their amateur radio license. I have one and >my call is KE6HTS. > I'm WB5PFJ, but VERY inactive. Tim Olmstead timolmst@cyberramp.net From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 23 08:23:53 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! Message-ID: <199706231322.IAA05270@challenge.sunflower.com> I use alcohol, windex, fingernail paint remover and other noxious things to clean apple][ cases, just avoid getting the nastiest of these solvents on things like the little lite that says power, or the apple ][ logos on monitors or the name badge at the top of the machine. I've also heard that some people will dissasemble the computer leaving the empty shell, take out EVERYTHING, and run the plastic case through the dishwasher, not using the Heated drying cycle of course. As for key repair, they are little plastic wedges that are shoved against two vertically mounted contacts, counter forced by a small spring. You can not remove the keys without damage. To repair a keyboard you have two options, One, Replace the entire keyboard, or aquire a ][ for parts and remove the keyboard from the unit, the contacts are soldered into the keyboard cirucuit board. You can then replace the switch. The Key caps can be removed. but you can't get to the switch of course without destroying it, or desoldering it as a unit. I have manually recontructed them before, but they never seem to work quite right once forced open, but the do function enough to use as long as it's not an alpha charcter, or god forbid the enter key. ---------- > From: J. Maynard Gelinas > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: apple II - SCORE! > Date: Sunday, June 22, 1997 11:57 PM > > > OK, I just got my first decent item since I stopped collecting > several years ago. This is an original apple II, serial number 7833. It > came with what appears to be the Microsoft basic language card. The card > contains six 24 pin sockets, five filled by PROMs (C48040; each with an > APPLE 1978 sticker), a red switch on the back, and another sticker on the > board's surface reading: 851. Just below that sticker printed on the card > it says ROM CARD 600. There's also a disk II interface card, circa '78, > but the drive itself was unavailable. Could someone verify if that card > *is* the Integer BASIC replacement, or Microsoft BASIC? > > The motherboard is functional, video works just fine, it seems > filled out with 48K of that old Military grade metal topped RAM; obviously > the PSU is good. The keyboard is a mess, hoewver. It's been sitting in a > basement for years, so many keys have gummed up; some seem to have been > in a perpetual depressed state waiting out obsolesence like Atlas. The > machine itself is filthy. The plastic case has just burned in grime from > years of use and then even more years of basement ambiance. > > I'm guessing that some folks here may know a bit more about > system restoration. Mind if I ask a few questions? > > How do I go about cleaning this without destroying the case? Does > anyone know of some good solvents or cleaners for plastic? > > Can I pull a keytop off the keyboard without destroying the key? > If it's really bad I guess I could change keyboards - but I'd really like > to attempt to get this guy working, as it was the original. > > > And then there's stuff: I lack a floppy disk drive. Hmmm... how > rare is hard disk technology that will work with this apple? Hahaha, > here's a good one: does anyone know if ever there's been manufactured > 10base-T cards, or am I just dreaming here? If so, guess I'll be looking > for a SuperSerial card as well. > > And basic 'dumb' (no time to RTFM quite yet!!) questions: How do > I get out of the ROM monitor into BASIC? I guess I need some basic DOCS > here as well as a good technical reference, huh?. I figure most of the > 'stuff' can be had on comp.sys.apple2.marketplace and the M.I.T. flea > fest approaching on July 20. If anyone wishes, however, please feel free > to offer items for sale. I want to get this computer clean and > *functional*, but I'm also not in a hury to do it tomorrow. ;-) > > Price: I got it FREE! 8-)) > > And the guy couldn't imagine why I'd want it!!! > > J. Maynard Gelinas From rector at christcom.net Mon Jun 23 09:52:20 1997 From: rector at christcom.net (Dan Rector) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts Message-ID: <33AE8DA4.3A06@christcom.net> I was looking through a book I had picked up a year or so ago called "The Elementary Commodore 64". Towards the front amongst the description of various types of peripherals available for the C64 under the title "Other Gadgets" was this: Z-80 CP/M -- This cartridge goes right into the cartridge slot to turn your machine into a Z-80 base computer enabling you to access the vast array of CP/M software. With over 2000 CP/M software programs available, there is little you will not be able to access. Dan Rector From rector at christcom.net Mon Jun 23 10:20:02 1997 From: rector at christcom.net (Dan Rector) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <33AE9422.57E4@christcom.net> Hello, I guess it's about time that I introduce myself. I've been lurking here for a month or better. I guess I really have not responded before because I didn't really have much to add especially to the discussions of late 70's stuff and the discussions of minis. My main interests (although I enjoy reading all of this) is the older systems based on the IBM-PC (XT & AT class) machines and PS/2s which I know is a bit more current than many of you like. I also have a Commodore 64 and Plus/4 and periphs, I guess I can qualify based on that. I really didn't start out to be a collector, but kind of fell into it. The Plus/4 was the first computer my family ever had, so I've now taken over the care and nurturing of it. I picked up my C64 a couple of years ago from my former minister who had is sitting in his closet. He had two 1541s, a MPS-803 printer, vicmodem, fast load cartrigde, joystick, and monitor, plus a ton of software. He wanted $30 for the lot after I enquired. I was in hog heaven but why wife rolled up her eyes and said "What are you going to do with THAT!" The XTs and PS/2s were give aways. I've really been having fun with the PS/2 Mod 60 (a 286 w/ one 1M and 40M HD). I have been watching AuctionWeb and have added pieces to bring it up to a '486 with 8 meg with SCSI periphs. One of the more interesting 'gives' I have since obtained is the Amstrad PC1512 - It's an XT class machine with built in joystick port in the keyboard (uses same joystick as C64), built it mouse port, serial and parrallel built in with the expansion slots going left to right rather than front to back. The power supply for the whole thing is in the monitor. The case has a 'cutout' for the the stand of the monitor to fit into. It also uses 4 AA bateries for the clock which are easily accessible (move the monitor). It is really a neat design. I live in Rochester, MN - so I'm not close to either coast (but Canada isn't that far away) Dan From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Mon Jun 23 09:09:16 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 22 Jun 1997 09:18:47 PDT." Message-ID: <199706231409.JAA17448@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> >A "ton" of NEC-2716 and Hitachi 2716 EPROMs > >He also has the line on hundreds of Panasonic RL-H18 palmtops. This is a >palmtop which came out around 1985 and had FORTH in ROM. It also has a >20-col (or 40-col?) thermal printer and a case which bundles the two >together. His company also developed an expansion "tray" which houses I'd definitly be interested in some 2716s and one (or maybe a few of the RL-H18s). Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Jun 23 09:35:33 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: Jr. Dragons? In-Reply-To: <33ADA3CE.50CD@ndirect.co.uk> References: <01BC7EDA.AE0BA3E0@ppp-151-164-37-19.rcsntx.swbell.net> <33b15579.755586@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970623103533.00936890@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, e.tedeschi said: [snip] >I have got plenty of Dragons 32 or 64 for sale/trade/swap if you want >them. I need an IBM Junior and an Apple II. First, I have a question: Was there much difference between the Dragon 32 and the Dragon 64, or is that just a designation of how much memory it had? Also, I have 1 1/2 IBM-PC Jr.'s sitting in my basement collecting dust. They used to be complete, non-working machines (one with a "sidecar" I believe it's called) whereas I did get one "almost working" with spares for the second. The almost working comes in as I didn't have a monitor for them, and altho they did have the RF Modulator to use a TV with, I could never get a clear picture thru that port. I could tell that the machine booted and worked, and I could see changes on the screen so the keystrokes were being recognized, and simple DOS commands did seem to have output, but it was nowhere readable. As such, right now I have 1 complete Jr with floppy drive, sidecar, and 128K mem expansion (I believe... hafta look at the chips & calculate the storage) with an extra internal floppy drive, an extra motherboard, an extra keyboard (neither are chicklet, and one has a few stuck keys) I think there was a Lotus 123 cartridge with it (but I heard rumors that it needed a disk as well?) and a basic cartridge. There may be more stuff, but I haven't looked at it since the move... Are you interested in it? HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From scott at saskatoon.com Mon Jun 23 09:54:51 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) In-Reply-To: <33AE2002.34F5@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: > This is STILL an American computer. You seem not to be interested in > others like the Sopectrum, the BBC, Oric Atmos, Camputers Linx, Oric 1, > Jupiter Ace etc. I've been looking for a Jupiter Ace for over 10 years! Do you have any leads on them? (I didn't realize that they were not American computers, as I learned about them in Creative Computing like all the rest.) > enrico ttfn srw From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon Jun 23 09:58:09 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: PET In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970622213557.006859c0@post.keme.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, steve wrote: > Ok can you help ? a few months ago I found a Commodore P500 seriel NO. WG00837 > What the heck is it???? > At first I thought it was one of those old Commodore PC's they used to make but that was a PC-10 I think. Well, checking my rather old copy of the commodore FAQ, it says under "dunno Series" : P500 6509, 6567, 6591 Well, there you go... dunno Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Jun 23 10:00:42 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:33 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) In-Reply-To: <33AE2002.34F5@ndirect.co.uk> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970623110042.009803b0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, e.tedeschi said: >Sam Ismail wrote: >> On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Olminkhof wrote: >> > > I take "paddock" is Strine for "junkyard", and open to the elements? As long as we're inquiring about other cultures & whatnot, what language is "Strine" referencing (I'm assuming the Queen's English, but I could be wrong) and why is it called such? >> > "paddock" is an english word for a place where animals graze. Hey, here's a question: In the UK, a "boot" is what we stoopid Americans call "the trunk" i.e. the rear storage compartment of a four-wheeled family-type vehicle. So if you all boot a computer, does that mean you're turning it on, or putting it in your automobile???? ;^> ;^> >> Who said classiccmp isn't open to other cultures? That's a cultural >> exchange if I ever saw one. >> Sam >This is STILL an American computer. You seem not to be interested in >others like the Sopectrum, the BBC, Oric Atmos, Camputers Linx, Oric 1, >Jupiter Ace etc. Enrico, that's just not fair. That's like saying "It hasn't rained for 2 days, therefore it never rains here." There have been several discussions on machines from countries other than the US (you yourself brought up the Dragon... That's not an American machine!), Alexios owns an Oric IIRC (and many machines in his virtual museum are not of US origin), and many other machines do get some airtime around here... it's just been a small dry spell lately. What about machines that did originate in the U.S. but gained a much larger following overseas? The Atari ST line didn't make a big hit in the US, but it was *very* popular in Germany in particular and Europe in general. (and yes, I'm getting mine ___This Weekend___!!! Wheeeee! ;-) Should they be classified as "US" or "European", and does it even matter? I say "Pop a homebrew (my homebrew follows Reinheitsgebot -- and that's a classic from 1518! ;-), spark up a CoCo, and let's have some fun!" As my dad says: Thanks 'till you're better paid!!! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jun 23 09:57:04 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts Message-ID: <199706231457.AA07878@world.std.com> > Z-80 CP/M -- This cartridge goes right into the cartridge slot to turn > your machine into a Z-80 base computer enabling you to access the vast > array of CP/M software. With over 2000 CP/M software programs > available, there is little you will not be able to access. That's 20,000 and for those with a PC Walnut Creek produces a CP/M cdrom that has most all of them. They also have titles online WWW.cdrom.com Allison From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Mon Jun 23 10:17:52 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Jr. Dragons? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970623111629.0069c7c0@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> It's been years since I fiddled with a PCjr. It has a self test, to activate press Control-Alternate-Insert. Can't remember the specifics of the self test though. I don't know if Lotus for the jr required a disk, but I have been told it came on two separate cartridges. At 02:35 PM 6/23/97 +0000, you wrote: >As such, right now I have 1 complete Jr with floppy drive, sidecar, and >128K mem expansion (I believe... hafta look at the chips & calculate the >storage) with an extra internal floppy drive, an extra motherboard, an >extra keyboard (neither are chicklet, and one has a few stuck keys) I think >there was a Lotus 123 cartridge with it (but I heard rumors that it needed >a disk as well?) and a basic cartridge. There may be more stuff, but I >haven't looked at it since the move... > >Are you interested in it? > >HTH, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From ghjorth at sn.no Sat Jun 21 11:04:14 1997 From: ghjorth at sn.no (Thomas Christopher Jarvis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 90 In-Reply-To: <199706210702.AAA01753@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <+t/qzQv6D0FS092yn@oslonett.no> Would someone please remove me from this list. Thank you. From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Mon Jun 23 11:06:41 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Vector 3-5030 References: <33AAA583.4C08@xlisper.mv.com> <33AAF037.F01@rain.org> <33AAF6F1.3004@xlisper.mv.com> <33AAFEB5.3C3D@rain.org> <33AC5362.301D@rain.org> Message-ID: <33AE9F11.29E3@xlisper.mv.com> Marvin wrote: > > David Betz wrote: > > > > Does anyone know anything about the Vector 3-5030 from Vector Graphics? > > Is it considered a collectable? I recently found one at the town dump > > and brought it home. It displays some sort of ROM monitor screen when > > I just had a phone call from an acquaintance who used to work for Vector > Graphic. If you have any questions, I can forward them to him. I > always find it nice to be able to talk with people that actually worked > for the companies who built these classics! Thanks for your offer to help. I'm finding that getting ancient CP/M machines running is more work than I had expected. I think I'll stick with the old Epson PX-8 that I've got in the closet if I get interested in playing with CP/M again. If you know anyone who might be interested in the Vector 3 I'd be happy to give it to them. Unfortunately, it probably isn't worth what it would cost to ship it from NH. David -- David Betz DavidBetz@aol.com dbetz@xlisper.mv.com (603) 472-2389 From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 23 11:13:59 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Message-ID: <199706231610.LAA14021@challenge.sunflower.com> Picked up one of these the other day, no power supply, anyone know what this monster needs for the 3 pin powersupply connection? {pinouts} From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 23 11:34:26 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33b2a49a.1036037@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:54:51 -0600 (CST), you wrote: %> This is STILL an American computer. You seem not to be interested in %> others like the Sopectrum, the BBC, Oric Atmos, Camputers Linx, Oric 1, %> Jupiter Ace etc. % %I've been looking for a Jupiter Ace for over 10 years! Do you have any %leads on them? (I didn't realize that they were not American computers, %as I learned about them in Creative Computing like all the rest.) I have a jupiter ace. It's sitting is a closet somewhere back in Singapore. Another sign of the folly of my youth : the machine is stripped out, the TV modulator is missing (modified the machine to run on a Zenith monochrome monitor), the rubber keyboard is somewhere else, there's a hole made on the plastic casing for a reset switch, and the last and worst modification I made on it was to wire up an external keyboard to it. Should have left it in one piece. Might have been more fun to look at. Ben From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 11:38:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) In-Reply-To: <33AE2002.34F5@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > This is STILL an American computer. You seem not to be interested in > others like the Sopectrum, the BBC, Oric Atmos, Camputers Linx, Oric 1, > Jupiter Ace etc. WHATEVER dude. Why don't you send me each of the computers you mentioned above, and to prove to you I am interested, I WILL KEEP THEM! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jun 23 11:54:13 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) Message-ID: <01IKEQR6ZVV6AFTTHX@cc.usu.edu> > %I've been looking for a Jupiter Ace for over 10 years! Do you have any > %leads on them? The schematics were printed in The Computer Journal last year sometime. IIRC, The Computer Journal's URL is http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/. > I have a jupiter ace. It's sitting is a closet somewhere back in > Singapore. > > Another sign of the folly of my youth : I have a Jupiter Ace hanging around, also. However, I just built it last year. Unfortunately, I had to give the rubber keyboard and most of the memory back to the fellow I borrowed them from; I haven't yet gotten around to building a keyboard from aluminized mylar, cardboard, and Tyvek (this should give me a working keyboard, but it will be of ZX80 quality). I've also found enough 2114s in an old MDA card to bring my Ace back to life... > the machine is stripped out, > the TV modulator is missing I don't have a modulator in mine. I gummed a 15-pin D connector to it so I could drive a spare DEC VR201 I had lying around (yes, the VR201 apparently does have enough range to do PAL; it worked great). Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 08:44:31 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231610.LAA14021@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <199706231744.NAA13546@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:13:59 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Bill Girnius" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: IBM PCjr > X-To: "Classic" > Picked up one of these the other day, no power supply, anyone know what > this monster needs for the 3 pin powersupply connection? {pinouts} > Center tapped ransformer is used. Both 17v ac at 2amp each on each outmost pins, center pin is the center tapped wire for transformer. Kind of kludge. But I worked out a pinout for that power slot to use regular efficient power supply via a custom adapter. Jason D. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jun 23 11:58:13 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706221951.4344@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: I have 2 sets of RX02s. I just thought that the way the top board had a hinge on it was neat. Never saw it as a work of art... Hmm... :) From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jun 23 12:20:16 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706230316.AA05134@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, there are plenty of true innovations today, but most are simply hype... Example: Anything from Microsoft. From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Mon Jun 23 12:13:45 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Commodore Pet ?? C128??? Err P500 In-Reply-To: <199706231042.GAA09736@mail.cgocable.net> References: <9705238670.AA867090681@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970623181345.006e2284@post.keme.co.uk> Please help, I have a Commodore P500. What is it... Steve Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Mon Jun 23 12:34:34 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: FS on AuctionWeb: Apple, Atari, Commodore Message-ID: <33AEB3AA.3E28@oboe.calpoly.edu> I apologize for the intrusion but I just bought a lot of Apple service parts for older apples (IIe, IIc, IIGS) and listed some of the ones I don't need on the auction. They were supposedly in stock at a service facility when they cleaned out the old stuff. I'mm still intending on clearing out most of my stuff but I couldn't pass up a good deal. I did get some parts for my laserwriter, Mac plus, a couple new in box 400k drives. Too bad I had to buy 30 boxes to get the 5 things I wanted. ;-) There are also some systems listed. Here's what I have listed there as of today: Apple IIe Power Supply (new in box!) Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 06/29/97, 11:58:50 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=egt71446 IBM PS/2 MOD 50 Mother Board (in box) Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 06/29/97, 12:07:10 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=lbl753 Apple IIe Ext 80 Column/RGB Card (in box) Current bid: $1.00 Auction ends on: 06/29/97, 17:54:14 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=jaq4937 bjv77574: Apple IIGS Memory Expansion Card (in box) Current bid: $1.00 Auction ends on: 06/29/97, 17:58:41 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=bjv77574 oyf368: Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer I (photo) Current bid: $3.00 Auction ends on: 06/29/97, 19:33:30 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=oyf368 fwr8114: Radio Shack TRS-80 5 MB Ext. Hard Drive (pic) Bidding starts at: $3.00 Auction ends on: 06/29/97, 20:19:52 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=fwr8114 Pair Apple IIc, IIe Handcontrollers (photo) Current bid: $1.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 12:40:28 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=sfx4367 Commodore 128D System Current bid: $51.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 21:12:47 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=qrk459038 Commodore 64 - White Current bid: $10.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 21:16:04 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=wbj37502 Apple IIC System with External Floppy Current bid: $10.50 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 21:22:31 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=hxz389 Atari 520ST Computer, Floppy, Mouse, etc Current bid: $50.00 Auction ends on: 06/26/97, 21:26:58 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=czo512 From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jun 23 09:27:48 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: info about... In-Reply-To: <199706222049.AA02583@world.std.com> Message-ID: <24B227715078@ifrsys.com> > > I have a PC05 card (LSI-11) it's a punch reader interface. This one is > different...it's a virgin bare board! Anyone that want's it let me know. > > Anyone know what a DEC 54-17101/2- ACTOR video daughter is used on? I have > two of these. > > Allison > > Y'know, I'll bet that's a left-over from a Heathkit H-11 (IIRC, the paper punch was one of the options you could get . . . . jeff From gram at cnct.com Mon Jun 23 11:25:39 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970623110042.009803b0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> > > I take "paddock" is Strine for "junkyard", and open to the elements? > > As long as we're inquiring about other cultures & whatnot, what language is > "Strine" referencing (I'm assuming the Queen's English, but I could be > wrong) and why is it called such? The term "Strine" is one I was introduced to years back by an Australian friend who used the term to refer to his nationality and his accent. It's a shortening of "Australian" and sounds best if pronounced with that accent. I was wondering whether there'd been definition drift over there, as there has been between here and England -- yes, I _know_ that "paddock" original means what I'd call a "corral". It's meaning as a place with a fence to keep animals in would easily lead itself to drift over to a place with a fence surrounding abandoned eguipment, what in the US I'd call a junkyard. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jun 23 10:47:20 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Hams who collect In-Reply-To: <199706222033.4511@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <33AD8A32.12A7@rain.org>; from "Marvin" at Jun 22, 97 1:25 pm Message-ID: <24B182A406BB@ifrsys.com> > > > > I see a number of references to people who get things at hamfests, > > swapfests, and other amateur radio type events. As such, I was just > > curious who out there has their amateur radio license. I have one and > > my call is KE6HTS. > > G1XPF here. That's a 'Class B' license, roughly the equivalent of a > no-code tech in the States. > > But, at least in the UK, people without an amateur radio license are > welcome at radio rallies (hamfests), etc. Sometimes you'll be asked for a > callsign (particularly if you want the seller to hold something for you to > pick up later, or for identification if you're paying by cheque), but you > can always claim to be a short-wave listener (SWL). I did that for a > couple of rallies, got interested in the hobby, and got my license. > I'm KH6JJN. Been licensed for twenty years this year. I became enamoured with computers the following year . . . Jeff From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jun 23 09:49:22 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: References: <33AB6B7D.5283@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <24B2F4A36CCE@ifrsys.com> Brett wrote: > > I thought the 8008 was developed to go into a terminal. And then the > original *user* decided against using it so Intel started hawking it > as a micro-cpu. It must hav made it into SOMETHING that was not a > computer. Someone mentioned thr front panel of a DEC but it must > have been used in some terminals. Anybody know if and which? > > As I remember the 4004 was actually Intels first micro-cpu and I don't ^^^^ > know of any commercial product that used them - but I don't know > everything. Any product types and names? > > BC > > Yes! I do! I do! (Hand raised, flailing about) When I worked for John Fluke Mfg. in the early eighties, I used to repair their 6010 & 6012 audio frequency synthesizers. These used one 4004 processors for EVERYTHING; keyboard control, display generation (one led segment at a time), synthesizer latch loading, level control etc. It was one BUSY little chip. Jeff From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jun 23 12:11:38 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: cocos and stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > The Color Computers were: > > > Color Computer 1: Silver/black, 4K-64K > > > Color Computer 2: White, 4K-64K > > I have a CoCo2 that's yellow, and I don't think it's from aging. > > The plastic they made the case for the Color Computer 2 started out white > in every example I've ever seen, but it definitely yellows with age and > exposure to light. Mine is slightly yellow. I have a CoCo II, with 64k and 2 disk drives (One has failed, though) and the BASIC book that came with it (Minus the cover). It made it through a house fire, I suspect that may have accellerated the yellowing. That was my first computer, it now lives under my PDP-11/23. I also have a TRS-80 Model 100, it is currently the terminal to the 11, and it needs a new keyboard (4 keys have quit working, I can't seem to get them working again). I still have the tape I saved all my basic programs on. I never did learn assembly for it. Somewhere I have the thin book with the system specs on it. I lost the cassette recorder somewhere, but I still have the cable, so I can read the tape. I fire it up when I get time, just to run it some. From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 23 13:04:17 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Message-ID: <199706231800.NAA26151@challenge.sunflower.com> Welp, that rules out rigging one, thats beyond my techincal ability to fabricate. Anyone have an Extra for sale or trade? ---------- > From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: IBM PCjr > Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 8:44 AM > > > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:13:59 -0500 > > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > From: "Bill Girnius" > > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > > Subject: IBM PCjr > > X-To: "Classic" > > > Picked up one of these the other day, no power supply, anyone know what > > this monster needs for the 3 pin powersupply connection? {pinouts} > > > Center tapped ransformer is used. Both 17v ac at 2amp each on each > outmost pins, center pin is the center tapped wire for transformer. > > Kind of kludge. But I worked out a pinout for that power slot to use > regular efficient power supply via a custom adapter. > > Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 09:09:19 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Jr. Dragons? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970623103533.00936890@mail.northernway.net> References: <33ADA3CE.50CD@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <199706231809.OAA15946@mail.cgocable.net> > First, I have a question: Was there much difference between the Dragon 32 > and the Dragon 64, or is that just a designation of how much memory it had? > > Also, I have 1 1/2 IBM-PC Jr.'s sitting in my basement collecting dust. > They used to be complete, non-working machines (one with a "sidecar" I > believe it's called) whereas I did get one "almost working" with spares for > the second. > > The almost working comes in as I didn't have a monitor for them, and altho > they did have the RF Modulator to use a TV with, I could never get a clear > picture thru that port. I could tell that the machine booted and worked, > and I could see changes on the screen so the keystrokes were being > recognized, and simple DOS commands did seem to have output, but it was > nowhere readable. > > As such, right now I have 1 complete Jr with floppy drive, sidecar, and > 128K mem expansion (I believe... hafta look at the chips & calculate the > storage) with an extra internal floppy drive, an extra motherboard, an > extra keyboard (neither are chicklet, and one has a few stuck keys) I think > there was a Lotus 123 cartridge with it (but I heard rumors that it needed > a disk as well?) and a basic cartridge. There may be more stuff, but I > haven't looked at it since the move... I am looking for a 128k sidecar... if you are aware you can modify it to get 512k out of it by soldering work and adding one IC and jumpering. The commerical used parts reseller is asking far too much for what these old computer worth even in parts alone! > > Are you interested in it? > > HTH, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should > zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. > Thanks! Jason D. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 19:14:27 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Jr. Dragons? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970623103533.00936890@mail.northernway.net>; from "Roger Merchberger" at Jun 23, 97 10:35 am Message-ID: <199706231814.10258@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, e.tedeschi said: > > [snip] > > >I have got plenty of Dragons 32 or 64 for sale/trade/swap if you want > >them. I need an IBM Junior and an Apple II. > > First, I have a question: Was there much difference between the Dragon 32 > and the Dragon 64, or is that just a designation of how much memory it had? There is a little more difference than the ammount of memory - I think the '64 had a built-in serial port (using either a 6850 or a 6551 - I forget which) which the '32 didn't have. As I'm sure most of the people on the list know, the Dragon is very similar to the Tandy CoCo - both were based on the same Motorola Application Note. The main difference is the printer port - in the basic design there were 3 I/O lines left over once the ones needed for the keyboard and video had been allocated. Tandy used them to make a bit-banged serial port (TxD, RxD, CD), while Dragon used them as the Strobe, Busy and Ack lines for a Centronics port. The data lines for said port were the same 8 lines that were used for keyboard scanning - since the printer would only listen when the strobe line was asserted, and the keyboard was entirely software controlled, there was no conflict here. > > Also, I have 1 1/2 IBM-PC Jr.'s sitting in my basement collecting dust. > They used to be complete, non-working machines (one with a "sidecar" I > believe it's called) whereas I did get one "almost working" with spares for > the second. I think I mentioned this before, but I bought a PC-jr for \pounds 10.00 (about $15) at a radio rally earlier this year - the basic machine with IR keyboard, printer 'sidecar', floppy drive and 64K RAM upgrade. I was pleasantly suprised when IBM could still supply the TechRef (about \pounds 50.00). I was even more pleasantly suprised when it arrived - it's a very complete manual - schematics for everything apart from the keyboard and floppy drive (but the latter is in the O&A Techref), BIOS source, keyboard protocol, etc. If you are serious about restoring these machines you should try to get it. > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 09:15:50 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: FS on AuctionWeb: Apple, Atari, Commodore In-Reply-To: <33AEB3AA.3E28@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <199706231815.OAA16632@mail.cgocable.net> Hello, > > IBM PS/2 MOD 50 Mother Board (in box) > Bidding starts at: $1.00 > Auction ends on: 06/29/97, 12:07:10 PDT > http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=lbl753 There is two types of that model 50 and 50z. 50z is much smaller motherboard than 50. 50z runs 0 wait state so it's my favorite. Thanks! Jason D. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 19:19:19 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231610.LAA14021@challenge.sunflower.com>; from "Bill Girnius" at Jun 23, 97 11:13 am Message-ID: <199706231819.10529@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Picked up one of these the other day, no power supply, anyone know what > this monster needs for the 3 pin powersupply connection? {pinouts} > > From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 09:28:29 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231800.NAA26151@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <199706231828.OAA17830@mail.cgocable.net> > Welp, that rules out rigging one, thats beyond my techincal ability to > fabricate. Anyone have an Extra for sale or trade? They're underrated but you can just get one to keep orginals but I could supply you a adapter for your own use with a PC power supply box. This way, you can simply plug in and go? I do not know where to get these black transformer bricks. The PCjr around here is rare as hen's teeth in my hometown. :) Considering that, I was lucky to find it in standard configuration of parallel port side car and the box but no cartidges! :( I also overheard that someone was trying to use TV with PCjr, you missed something really needed: demodulator box or find a computer compsite monitor which works better especially in 80 column mode. Commorde color monitors is good picks for this. Jason D. From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 23 13:39:33 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Message-ID: <199706231835.NAA29554@challenge.sunflower.com> A place in my location called surplus exchange, has about a dozen pcJR's on a skid. I didn't find any power supplies, but by the looks of the place, they could be anywhere. Let me know what to look for when I go back and I'll see if I can't rescue some more. (assuming the old lady lets me). I know the PC JR I bought, has a Parallell port on the outside, which I learned only today is a "Side-car". I have dozens of composite mono and color monitors from my apple// and Zenith collections. I also managed to scrounge out of this pile, [one] keyboard with cable, and [one] joystick and about 5 or 6 cartridges. The other PCjr,s seemed to be alone. Let me know what to look for on the CPU's and I can go through all of them one by one. If anyone else want's one, let me know and we can see what we can do. Last trip there I got a TI99/4a, atari 800, 1050 drive, 410 drive, Tandy COCO 1,. Commodore 1741 drive, Commodore mps 803 printer (I think) it works good. And an apple//+ for parts. I paid 35 for everything. I noticed this pallete of Jr's but I sure as heck didn't see any monitors, keyboards or power, except the one keyboard I did find elsewhere in the building. ---------- > From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: IBM PCjr > Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 9:28 AM > > > > Welp, that rules out rigging one, thats beyond my techincal ability to > > fabricate. Anyone have an Extra for sale or trade? > They're underrated but you can just get one to keep orginals but I > could supply you a adapter for your own use with a PC power supply > box. This way, you can simply plug in and go? > > I do not know where to get these black transformer bricks. The > PCjr around here is rare as hen's teeth in my hometown. :) > Considering that, I was lucky to find it in standard configuration of > parallel port side car and the box but no cartidges! :( > > I also overheard that someone was trying to use TV with PCjr, you > missed something really needed: demodulator box or find a computer > compsite monitor which works better especially in 80 column mode. > Commorde color monitors is good picks for this. > > Jason D. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 19:39:55 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231744.NAA13546@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 1:44 pm Message-ID: <199706231839.11400@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Center tapped ransformer is used. Both 17v ac at 2amp each on each > outmost pins, center pin is the center tapped wire for transformer. Are you _sure_ about this (as in 'Have you measured it'). My PC-jr was missing the power brick, and I must get round to making one. A glance at the PSU schematic convinced me it wasn't tapped to earth, but it could have been. If you know for sure, could you please confirm this so I don't blow up my PSU card. > Jason D. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From chemif at mbox.queen.it Mon Jun 23 13:43:23 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: C=1570 Drive (was Re:C64 CP/M carts) Message-ID: <199706231843.UAA12163@mbox.queen.it> At 21:44 20/06/97 +0100, we wrote: >> >>>Besides, I was talking about CP/M for the Commodore 1541 drive. That's a >>>multi-speed drive that uses GCR encoding, not MFM. Try writing THAT with >>>22DISK on your PC-clone. >>>I used to know that only C=1570 and C=1571 were capable to read and write >>CP/M disks in a proper way. (GCR+MFM) >>By the way anyone else apart me owning a C=1570 here? >> >>Ciao >> >>i own a 1570, its a american one with a step down transformer, Its >connected to my PC, and guess what, it writes CPM!!! >Steve >Emulator BBS >01284 760851 >Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE Hi Steve, Yours was the only one response I get (since now) from C=1570 owners Mine was made in Germany (did you buy it in the U.S.?) Ciao From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 09:51:18 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231819.10529@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199706231610.LAA14021@challenge.sunflower.com>; from "Bill Girnius" at Jun 23, 97 11:13 am Message-ID: <199706231851.OAA20006@mail.cgocable.net> Hello Tony, > > >From memory the central pin is chassis ground and the outside 2 are 18V AC > at about 3A. Actually 34vac 2amp center tapped transformer. The center tap goes to ground, what else how can negative voltages can be generated so it needs this ground. The both outside 2 pins for 17v ac lines goes there. The card rectify it to generate 3 dc voltages, two is positive and other one is negative. Bulk of the components is used to generate 5vdc, and a wimpy 12vdc source for the floppy drive and fan. And last one is in very small current negative current -12v dc which takes this voltage and go through a 7905 regulator to get -5v dc, both voltages are strictly for serial use and little use for else. Funny, instead of 60hz, you get the same type of circuit design in secondary side in lots of switching power supplies with few minor differences. The limits to overdrive if you do, both card and slot is due to the current limit allowance per contact on that slot. :( Leave it to be and parallel the seperate power sources to the sidecars if they have them. Another problem with this is that 3 connections is not enough to carry more than 2amp on each socket. By the way, I am Electomechanical major in training "on hold". :) > The manual doesn't give the schematics of the transformer unit (it does > for the PSU card in the main unit), and it's not clear from the > description whether the AC input is centre-tapped to ground or not. > Looking at the schematics, I think that it is _NOT_ Oh yes, I did saw the techref for the outside PSU transformer is pretty simple just a disconnectable center tapped transformer. One thing I hated that they did not give us the that schematics for that power card module which I revsere engineered instead! Jason D. From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 23 14:02:02 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? Message-ID: <199706231859.NAA01761@challenge.sunflower.com> What am I making here? Do we know yet? ---------- > From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: IBM PCjr > Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 9:51 AM > > Hello Tony, > > > > >From memory the central pin is chassis ground and the outside 2 are 18V AC > > at about 3A. > Actually 34vac 2amp center tapped transformer. The center tap goes > to ground, what else how can negative voltages can be generated so > it needs this ground. The both outside 2 pins for 17v ac lines goes > there. The card rectify it to generate 3 dc voltages, two is > positive and other one is negative. Bulk of the components is used > to generate 5vdc, and a wimpy 12vdc source for the floppy drive and > fan. And last one is in very small current negative current -12v dc > which takes this voltage and go through a 7905 regulator to get -5v > dc, both voltages are strictly for serial use and little use for > else. > > Funny, instead of 60hz, you get the same type of circuit design in > secondary side in lots of switching power supplies with few minor > differences. > > The limits to overdrive if you do, both card and slot is due to the > current limit allowance per contact on that slot. :( Leave it to be > and parallel the seperate power sources to the sidecars if they have > them. Another problem with this is that 3 connections is not enough > to carry more than 2amp on each socket. > > By the way, I am Electomechanical major in training "on hold". :) > > > The manual doesn't give the schematics of the transformer unit (it does > > for the PSU card in the main unit), and it's not clear from the > > description whether the AC input is centre-tapped to ground or not. > > Looking at the schematics, I think that it is _NOT_ > > Oh yes, I did saw the techref for the outside PSU transformer is > pretty simple just a disconnectable center tapped transformer. > One thing I hated that they did not give us the that schematics for > that power card module which I revsere engineered instead! > > Jason D. From manney at nwohio.com Mon Jun 23 11:38:56 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <199706231900.MAA27661@mx3.u.washington.edu> You aren't the only one who does old PC's...that's my business (I recondition old XT/AT's and sell them. Send strange questions to me. I also still sell an occasional Commodore piece! > My main interests (although I enjoy reading all of this) is the older > systems based on the IBM-PC (XT & AT class) machines and PS/2s which I > know is a bit more current than many of you like. I also have a > Commodore 64 and Plus/4 and periphs, I guess I can qualify based on > that. From manney at nwohio.com Mon Jun 23 11:54:25 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: H8 Computer Message-ID: <199706231900.MAA24212@mx2.u.washington.edu> > >What is a Heath H8 worth? I generally see H89's go for $25 US at hamfests. *I* wouldn't tie up $100 unless it was lovely and I really wanted one. Of course...it's worth what you want to pay for it, as Jim says From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 20:18:15 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231851.OAA20006@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 2:51 pm Message-ID: <199706231918.12579@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Hello Tony, > > > > >From memory the central pin is chassis ground and the outside 2 are 18V AC > > at about 3A. > Actually 34vac 2amp center tapped transformer. The center tap goes I was wrong. It's 17-0-17V, then. That's what I will use. > to ground, what else how can negative voltages can be generated so > it needs this ground. The both outside 2 pins for 17v ac lines goes Well, it could use a switching regulator. OK, I know it doesn't do so for the negative voltages - obviously I wasn't thinking straight earlier... > there. The card rectify it to generate 3 dc voltages, two is > positive and other one is negative. Bulk of the components is used > to generate 5vdc, and a wimpy 12vdc source for the floppy drive and The 5V regulator seems to be a switching one, which is what I'd have expected. > fan. And last one is in very small current negative current -12v dc > which takes this voltage and go through a 7905 regulator to get -5v > dc, both voltages are strictly for serial use and little use for > else. > > Funny, instead of 60hz, you get the same type of circuit design in > secondary side in lots of switching power supplies with few minor > differences. Yes, is that suprising? After all, a switching supply is nothing magical. You still need to transform the AC output into DC and regulate it. Of course you can always perform some regulation on an SMPS by varying the drive waveforms on the primary side. Talking of bad design (I was earlier...) I've seen some _crazy_ SMPS's in my time. In a Zenith monitor there's a supply that combines the reliability of a switcher with the efficiency of a linear. It rectifies the mains, feeds it to a free-running chopper (no regulation applied here), shoves that into a little transformer, rectifies the output and feeds it (about 18V DC) into a linear regulator that uses the power-on LED as the reference. It's the only monitor that _requires_ a green power-on LED. When my blew up (chopper failed, etc), I replaced the entire mess with a little torroidal transformer. It was cheaper than a new chopper transistor and a lot simpler. Then there are the Boschert 2-stage supplies that are used in Sanders printers and PERQ 1's (and probably elsewhere). A shorted chopper in one of those (which is a very common failure mode) will blow up 2 more expensive power transistors and then take out a number of small transistors, the chopper control IC (a good old 723), a few passives and a couple of PCB tracks. I had to sort out such a mess once - I can provide the full story if anyone's interested. > > The manual doesn't give the schematics of the transformer unit (it does > > for the PSU card in the main unit), and it's not clear from the > > description whether the AC input is centre-tapped to ground or not. > > Looking at the schematics, I think that it is _NOT_ > > Oh yes, I did saw the techref for the outside PSU transformer is Odd... That's not in my TechRef... > pretty simple just a disconnectable center tapped transformer. > One thing I hated that they did not give us the that schematics for > that power card module which I revsere engineered instead! But that is. The PSU card schematics (starting from the 3 pin connector) were included. > > Jason D. > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 11:17:16 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <02010783012841@michianatoday.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, tiborj wrote: > Hello there, I an fairly new here, but I am interested in all kinds of > hardware and software hacks. > Someone out there mentioned the 'sophistication' of the Apple ]['s video > addressing, saying that the > RAM refresh steals CPU cycles, Apples method is worse than a kludge, it was > simply a crufted idea. yes, the Disk II is an elegent kludge,as ALL of my > homebrewed electronic gear are kludges just to make them work!. My first > computer was a Commodore 64, and comparing it to apples(not oranges :0) the > 64 is WAY more advanced, and it too shares a medium populated motherboard. I > can do 90% of the multimedia stuff on the 64 as you can with a P-133! my > point being, the Apple and 64 both had 6502 compatible proccessors, but the > 6510 used by the 64 has smarter memory mangament, and it is fast enough to > refresh the ram AND do sprite graphics AND use bit mapped memory. adding Unfortunately your comparison is invalid since the C64 had a seperate chip for sound as well as graphics. The Apple used one 6502 to process everything. > perhiperals to the 64 via the serial bus worked NICE, and I can prove > history is repeating itself. Look at the new USB (Universal Serial Bus) If not slow as hell. The worst part about the commodore 1541 drive is that it had its own processor, and it was still slow. The bottleneck was the serial interface. Commodore was lame not to use something faster than, what was it, 19.2K? In contrast, the Apple Disk ][ could transfer data at about a rate of 16K per second. > standard, where they want to run evrything from keyboards, mice, modems > etc... the Wintel croud calls it BRAND NEW IDEA, but we did this 10 years or > more ago. I got a good taste of Apple's machines in school, and they were Yeah, it was called daisy-chaining. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 20:23:07 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? In-Reply-To: <199706231859.NAA01761@challenge.sunflower.com>; from "Bill Girnius" at Jun 23, 97 2:02 pm Message-ID: <199706231923.12867@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > What am I making here? Do we know yet? OK. I was mistaken. It appears that what's needed is a 34V centre-tapped transformer (we'd call it a 17-0-17V transformer in the UK). You link it up like this : Mains In PC-jr power input ---------)||(--------------------( 1 )||( )||(17V 110V )||(____________________( 2 )||( )||(17V )||( ---------)||(--------------------( 3 Mains In You could also use a transformer with 2 separate 17V windings (they're more common than tapped ones in the UK). You'd link that up like this : Mains In 17V PC-jr power input ---------)||(--------------------( 1 )||( )||(---+ 110V )|| 0V +----------------( 2 )|| 17V| )||(---+ )||( ---------)||(--------------------( 3 Mains 0V In Notice the secondary connections put the 2 windings in (additive) series. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 10:38:42 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231839.11400@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199706231744.NAA13546@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 1:44 pm Message-ID: <199706231938.PAA24628@mail.cgocable.net> Tony, > > Center tapped ransformer is used. Both 17v ac at 2amp each on each > > outmost pins, center pin is the center tapped wire for transformer. I vaguely remembered had to run up the power card with dc transformer so I could puzzle out last one or two voltages on it. Had to do several steps to find all the voltages. From rws at eagle.ais.net Mon Jun 23 14:48:19 1997 From: rws at eagle.ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Hams who collect In-Reply-To: <33AD8A32.12A7@rain.org> from Marvin at "Jun 22, 97 01:25:22 pm" Message-ID: <199706231948.OAA04137@eagle.ais.net> KF9VP here, sorting through 200+ messages from the list. I must admit, I've found most of my computers at hamfests, but things have been getting rather rare (and sporadic) lately. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 20:50:20 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231938.PAA24628@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 3:38 pm Message-ID: <199706231950.13633@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Tony, > > > > Center tapped ransformer is used. Both 17v ac at 2amp each on each > > > outmost pins, center pin is the center tapped wire for transformer. > I vaguely remembered had to run up the power card with dc > transformer so I could puzzle out last one or two voltages on it. > Had to do several steps to find all the voltages. > From there, wired up a adapter which worked. Note, it is not 24vac > on each line! it is 12v on each wires if you buy center tapped > transformers you will see like that added up by outside two wires > measured. It goes like that marked on the transformer and the > transformer has three wires, of two wires same color and one is > different color, then it's a center tapped. I'm not sure I understand that at all. I assume you're saying that it's a 12-0-12 trasformer (or actually 17-0-17 - I am _sure_ 17V is mentioned somewhere in the IBM manual). Do you agree with the circuits I've just sent out? If not, could you please tell me where I've gone wrong? > Hello? Knock, knock...:) Anyway I did clearly remember that 17v ac Yes, I'm here... > on each wire (of two) and the center tap on one wire. > The power card rectify and regulates all the voltages for the Yep, I'll agree to that. > computer. That sort of thing I did build several power supplies > based on center tapped transformers, using center tap as common. > > Consider this: Take two aa battries and wire up in series, total > voltage is 3v assuming they're fresh. But put a wire as common > between two batteries and measure two wires in turn without swapping > those probes! This will give you one positive 1.5v and negative > 1.5v which that how center tapped transformer power supplies in this Yes, that sounds 100% reasonable. I may be from Cambridge, but I do understand _some_ electrical engineering :-) (Seriously, I had to explain jsut that to a 3rd year student in electrical engineering the other week..... There is something wrong with the world.) After all 'There is no such thing as ground' What you take as a 0V reference is entirely up to you. > configuration worked. But part of the circuity requires components > to rectify and smooth out the ripples caused by ac to dc > rectification process then final voltage regulation to complete the > inefficient ac to dc conversion process. The inefficiency in a linear PSU is in the regulator (which wastes energy as heat) and not (in general) in the rectifier or smoothing circuit. Of course a high-frequency SMPS can get away with smaller smoothing capacitors and a smaller (ferrite-cored) transfoemer. > > Efficient power supplies are switching type, little heat > and low losses in conversion process plus very light weight. > But they use same design in outputs (secondaries but for some who > knows electronics, these uses high frequency or fast recovery diodes) See my comment on that crazy Zenith PSU that I mentioned in an earlier post.... -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 20:54:02 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Hams who collect In-Reply-To: <199706231948.OAA04137@eagle.ais.net>; from "Richard W. Schauer" at Jun 23, 97 2:48 pm Message-ID: <199706231954.13729@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > KF9VP here, sorting through 200+ messages from the list. > > I must admit, I've found most of my computers at hamfests, but things have > been getting rather rare (and sporadic) lately. Yes, about 5 years ago there was a peak (in the UK) of classic computers turning up at rallies. The last couple of rallies I've been to have been rather disapointing - a lot of modern-ish PC's (486's, etc), and very few machines of interest. I did pick up a few interesting bits (including a Sharp machine that seems to have run MS-DOS (or possibly CP/M86) but which certianly wasn't a PC-clone), but the really interesting stuff (boxes of DEC boards, Intellecs, S100 stuff, etc) seems to be no more. Still, keep looking. You never know what will turn up next... > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 12:01:32 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts In-Reply-To: <33AE8DA4.3A06@christcom.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Dan Rector wrote: > I was looking through a book I had picked up a year or so ago called > "The Elementary Commodore 64". Towards the front amongst the > description of various types of peripherals available for the C64 under > the title "Other Gadgets" was this: > > Z-80 CP/M -- This cartridge goes right into the cartridge slot to turn > your machine into a Z-80 base computer enabling you to access the vast > array of CP/M software. With over 2000 CP/M software programs > available, there is little you will not be able to access. You can find one for sale from time to time on the usenet. What I am looking for is an expansion box called the Spartan which enable the C64 to run Apple ][ software. It was an emulator, basically. On another note, has anyone ever seen (or have) a Basis-xxx? I know it has a number in the name, but I can't remember it. It was an Apple ][ clone that also ran CP/M I believe? Something like that. I'm sure someone knows about it. I only knew one guy who ever had one, but I never saw it. It was a friend in high school back in 1989. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 11:31:43 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <199706230434.VAA21830@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 22 Jun 1997, Frank McConnell wrote: > If you look in the Apple ][ red book, there is a little circuit > in there that plugs into the game I/O connector and drives a > 20mA current loop. Alongside there is a short assembly program > to drive it. Now there is a bit-banger. Woz designed a printer to work off of the internal I/O port. > There was an unspectacular serial card for the ][. I don't recall it > being a bit banger, just that the combination of it and the printer I > was using at the time (an IDS BrighterWriter) wasn't smart enough to > manage any sort of common flow control, so that I had to run it at 300 > baud. I thought it had some sort of UART-like thing, but maybe my > brain is going again. I have that card. Its in my box o' apple peripherals. I thinks its just generically named "Apple Serial Interface". Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 11:27:41 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706230248.WAA15427@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > > That was a limitation introduced with the //e. The 80 column board had > > its own special slot that took over slot 3 if you had it populated. > > However, nothing was stopping you from putting another 80-column board > > (such as a Videx) in another slot and using that, although I can't think > > for the life of me why you'd need two 80-column cards. > > > Debugging. You can run your program on one screen, and have debugging > output/debugger output on the second screen. I did that once on a PS/2 when > I was writing code to manage the 8514 display. It was very nice to see not > only the output, but have the debugger not munging the display. You couldn't do that on an Apple. It only had one video output. Unless the 80-col card in question had a seperate video output. And then you'd have to go back to that clever programming thing. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 11:40:41 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Cocos In-Reply-To: <33AE212E.7929@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > IIRC, there was some debate in the _really_ early rainbow magazines. > > > (Or maybe it was in the 80 Micros. I have those, I'll have to check > > > later.) They were trying to decide a nickname for the Colour > > > Computer. I don't remember off hand what some of the other candidates > > > were, but there were some people who thought CoCo was too 'cute' or > > > non-business like or some such. > > > > I've always held the nickname as being rather obnoxious. Calling it the > > "COC" would have been more masculine and macho! > > Ah! Yes, but very few men would have bought it... Well, I don't necessarily want to be having a love affair with my "CoCo" either. At least with a COC you could say "I play with my COC all day! I love the feel of my COC under my fingertips". Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 11:10:40 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231918.12579@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199706231851.OAA20006@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 2:51 pm Message-ID: <199706232010.QAA28223@mail.cgocable.net> Tony, Ok, > > I was wrong. It's 17-0-17V, then. That's what I will use. Great. > > > to ground, what else how can negative voltages can be generated so > > it needs this ground. The both outside 2 pins for 17v ac lines goes > > Well, it could use a switching regulator. OK, I know it doesn't do so for > the negative voltages - obviously I wasn't thinking straight earlier... > > > there. The card rectify it to generate 3 dc voltages, two is > > positive and other one is negative. Bulk of the components is used > > to generate 5vdc, and a wimpy 12vdc source for the floppy drive and > > The 5V regulator seems to be a switching one, which is what I'd have > expected. Huh? That would make sense because the linear regulator in T220 case is limited to 1.5amp which it requires measly 3.6amp on that 5v lines. > Yes, is that suprising? After all, a switching supply is nothing magical. > You still need to transform the AC output into DC and regulate it. Of > course you can always perform some regulation on an SMPS by varying the > drive waveforms on the primary side. Hmmm...I fix PC powers and modern SMPS for the computer all the time to save $. Around here in canada costs above $60cdn for a new 200watt PSU. > > Talking of bad design (I was earlier...) I've seen some _crazy_ SMPS's in > my time. In a Zenith monitor there's a supply that combines the > reliability of a switcher with the efficiency of a linear. It rectifies > the mains, feeds it to a free-running chopper (no regulation applied > here), shoves that into a little transformer, rectifies the output and > feeds it (about 18V DC) into a linear regulator that uses the power-on LED > as the reference. It's the only monitor that _requires_ a green power-on > LED. When my blew up (chopper failed, etc), I replaced the entire mess > with a little torroidal transformer. It was cheaper than a new chopper > transistor and a lot simpler. > Ewwww.... that is bit overkill to design that! But closed loop switchers is very efficient and compact but that transformer is certainly larger than the orignals. Are you talking about this beige tiny 12" green or amber monitor with angular back? In this, chopper trans pops and kills one resistor. They are usually either TTL or composite. I have a working zenith Eazy PC with hd in it. Slow and buggy. :) > Then there are the Boschert 2-stage supplies that are used in Sanders > printers and PERQ 1's (and probably elsewhere). A shorted chopper in one > of those (which is a very common failure mode) will blow up 2 more > expensive power transistors and then take out a number of small > transistors, the chopper control IC (a good old 723), a few passives and a > couple of PCB tracks. I had to sort out such a mess once - I can provide > the full story if anyone's interested. Hmmm... you could email me privately with this account of yours. :) I have a astec PSU switcher that one big transistor on masssive heatsink driving BOTH switching transformers. Is one of that odd design? > > Odd... That's not in my TechRef... Well it was on different page I think, I did not have it as I was looking through it and copying few vital items. But it did show the pinouts only. Oh yeah, the power card does have a 2 pin connector near the transformer input, that is wired directly to the center tapped to the motherboard ground. It is required to make PCjr work reliably. Check your techref, mine is different book is incorrect but my analysis is correct and was used to power up PCjr via SMPS box: pin 1 is -5v, 2 and 3 is ground, 4 through 7 is 5v, 8 and 9 is ground again, finally 10 is 12v. I guess it did not require -12v. oops. :) Relation of pin A1 starts from front end works backwards to back for pin A10. For the transformer, it is 33watt fused, 17ac-0-17vac in same order as power input for the power board. By the way, where I could buy this real techref and how much? Soooo, I could fix up it with addons to XT standards. > But that is. The PSU card schematics (starting from the 3 pin connector) > were included. My source version didn't. :( Thanks. Jason D. From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 23 15:13:41 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Why and attendant threads... In-Reply-To: <199706220343.AA02635@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: OK Folks, I've been away for a week and not reading my e-mail. I am halfway through 700 messages right now and have been catching up on what seems to be a whole lot of off-topic chatter. If you are involved in e-mail regarding the following subjects please repair to private e-mail: International customs Sale or transfer of specific items (that is, working out the details) "Me too's" Also please refrain from one-liner responses when not absolutely neccesary. The traffic on list list has gotten to be such that unneccessary responses are generally more agravating than clever or fun. I am somewhat disappointed about the last week's posts but sometimes a minor misunderstanding can grow out-of-control when communicated through e-mail. I think its always good to point out that this has been a very civil list from the start - I hope it will remain that way. I think the enthusiasm and sense of community we have here is great and we all need to work a little to keep it in the forefront. I will hold off saying anything more until I catch up with today. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 11:16:04 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? In-Reply-To: <199706231923.12867@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199706231859.NAA01761@challenge.sunflower.com>; from "Bill Girnius" at Jun 23, 97 2:02 pm Message-ID: <199706232015.QAA28786@mail.cgocable.net> > > > > What am I making here? Do we know yet? > > OK. I was mistaken. It appears that what's needed is a 34V centre-tapped > transformer (we'd call it a 17-0-17V transformer in the UK). You link it > up like this : > > > > Mains > In PC-jr power input > ---------)||(--------------------( 1 > )||( > )||(17V > 110V )||(____________________( 2 > )||( > )||(17V > )||( > ---------)||(--------------------( 3 > Mains > In > > You could also use a transformer with 2 separate 17V windings (they're > more common than tapped ones in the UK). You'd link that up like this : > > > Mains > In 17V PC-jr power input > ---------)||(--------------------( 1 > )||( > )||(---+ > 110V )|| 0V +----------------( 2 > )|| 17V| > )||(---+ > )||( > ---------)||(--------------------( 3 > Mains 0V > In > > Notice the secondary connections put the 2 windings in (additive) series. That works. BUT, you need to watch the direction of phase on those paralleled transformers in secondaries and tied together primaries. Watch the wattage rating. :) > > > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill > > Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 11:19:53 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: References: <02010783012841@michianatoday.com> Message-ID: <199706232019.QAA29115@mail.cgocable.net> > > perhiperals to the 64 via the serial bus worked NICE, and I can prove > > history is repeating itself. Look at the new USB (Universal Serial Bus) > > If not slow as hell. The worst part about the commodore 1541 drive is > that it had its own processor, and it was still slow. The bottleneck was > the serial interface. Commodore was lame not to use something faster > than, what was it, 19.2K? In contrast, the Apple Disk ][ could transfer > data at about a rate of 16K per second. Not really, The main problem is that C= drive is commanded to read one track then inner then back out then again and again. Find a software to reorder those tracks on that disk to make it read one by one in series fashion. Then it's faster. > Yeah, it was called daisy-chaining. Yes right. Early computers invented this "USB" first. :) > > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Jason D. From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 11:37:41 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > OK, I just got my first decent item since I stopped collecting > several years ago. This is an original apple II, serial number 7833. It Very nice. > I'm guessing that some folks here may know a bit more about > system restoration. Mind if I ask a few questions? > > How do I go about cleaning this without destroying the case? Does > anyone know of some good solvents or cleaners for plastic? Get yourself a stiff-bristled plastic brush and a good cleaner like perhaps Formula 405. Again, I use an organic cleaner called L.O.C. (an Amway product). Flood the case with the cleaner and brush it with the brush. It may not take off all the goop, but it will do a good job (depending on your cleaner, mine works fantastic). > Can I pull a keytop off the keyboard without destroying the key? > If it's really bad I guess I could change keyboards - but I'd really like > to attempt to get this guy working, as it was the original. Spray your cleaner on the keyboard and scrub with the brush. It'll work very well. When you're done, lift each key off (yes you can, they come right off and you pop them right back on) and clean each individual one around the sides as needed, but the brushing should have done the trick. Clean all the hair, fuzzballs, food and other misceallny from the bottom of the keys. Replace all the keycaps. Of course rememberto note down where they all go. > And then there's stuff: I lack a floppy disk drive. Hmmm... how > rare is hard disk technology that will work with this apple? Hahaha, > here's a good one: does anyone know if ever there's been manufactured > 10base-T cards, or am I just dreaming here? If so, guess I'll be looking > for a SuperSerial card as well. Yes and no. They have an Apple ][ Workstation Card but they only work on the Apple //e. > And basic 'dumb' (no time to RTFM quite yet!!) questions: How do > I get out of the ROM monitor into BASIC? I guess I need some basic DOCS > here as well as a good technical reference, huh?. I figure most of the Press CTRL-C or CTRL-B and then RETURN. > And the guy couldn't imagine why I'd want it!!! What a fool! :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 21:26:40 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706232010.QAA28223@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 4:10 pm Message-ID: <199706232026.14795@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > The 5V regulator seems to be a switching one, which is what I'd have > > expected. > Huh? That would make sense because the linear regulator in T220 case > is limited to 1.5amp which it requires measly 3.6amp on that 5v > lines. In the PC-jr, I think the 5V regulator was a step-down switching one using that large inductor on the PSU card as the energy-storage device. The 12V supply is (AFAIK) a linear one. I am working from memory - my PC-jr Techref is about 70 miles away, > > > Yes, is that suprising? After all, a switching supply is nothing magical. > > You still need to transform the AC output into DC and regulate it. Of > > course you can always perform some regulation on an SMPS by varying the > > drive waveforms on the primary side. > Hmmm...I fix PC powers and modern SMPS for the computer all the time > to save $. Around here in canada costs above $60cdn for a new > 200watt PSU. Yep, so do I. Most SMPS faults are pretty simple (at least if the transformer has not got shorted turns...). And it's certainly worth doing for the more obscure supplies (i.e. not generic PC ones...) > > > > > Talking of bad design (I was earlier...) I've seen some _crazy_ SMPS's in > > my time. In a Zenith monitor there's a supply that combines the > > reliability of a switcher with the efficiency of a linear. It rectifies > > the mains, feeds it to a free-running chopper (no regulation applied > > here), shoves that into a little transformer, rectifies the output and > > feeds it (about 18V DC) into a linear regulator that uses the power-on LED > > as the reference. It's the only monitor that _requires_ a green power-on > > LED. When my blew up (chopper failed, etc), I replaced the entire mess > > with a little torroidal transformer. It was cheaper than a new chopper > > transistor and a lot simpler. > > > Ewwww.... that is bit overkill to design that! But closed loop Do you meant the redesing of using the torroidal transformer (at 50Hz)? It was trivial - jumper over the chopper transfomer, rip out the chopper board, use the mains rectifier as the LV one and feed 20V AC up the 'mains' cable. A lot less work than rebuilding the SMPS in my case > switchers is very efficient and compact but that transformer is > certainly larger than the orignals. Actually, the 50Hz 30VA transformer was no larger than the original bits... > Are you talking about this beige tiny 12" green or amber monitor with That's the one. > angular back? In this, chopper trans pops and kills one resistor. Well, I had shorted turns in the chopper transformer (tested on a homebrew 'ring tester'). It didn't seem worth rewinding. > They are usually either TTL or composite. > I have a working zenith Eazy PC with hd in it. Slow and buggy. :) I still have mine on a much-hacked PC/AT > > > Then there are the Boschert 2-stage supplies that are used in Sanders > > printers and PERQ 1's (and probably elsewhere). A shorted chopper in one > > of those (which is a very common failure mode) will blow up 2 more > > expensive power transistors and then take out a number of small > > transistors, the chopper control IC (a good old 723), a few passives and a > > couple of PCB tracks. I had to sort out such a mess once - I can provide > > the full story if anyone's interested. > Hmmm... you could email me privately with this account of yours. :) It may as well go here - it's just about on-topic.... The basic circuit design is : 1) Rectify/double the AC mains input to give 340V DC 2) Feed that into a non-isolated 'flyback' converter to step it down to 150V. 3) Feed the output of that into a free-running push-pull oscillator using a couple of big power transistors. 4) That oscillator drives the primary of the main transformer 5) The outputs of that transformer are rectified and smoothed. The 5V output is fed back via a regulator/optoisolator to the oscillator that drives the 'flyback' chopper mentioned in (2). 6) Oh, there's a crowbar triggered from the 5V output that shorts the 24V output to ground in the event of overvoltage. There's also a current-sense resistor in the return line from the oscillator (3) that shuts down the drive to (2) if it overcurrents. Now, here's what goes wrong. 1) The chopper (2) shorts. The output of that stage now leaps to 340V (since there's a DC path through the shorted transistor and the inductor) 2) The oscillator (3) continues running, so the 5V line leaps to about 12V 3) The crowbar trips, shorting the output to ground 4) The overcurrent trip tries to work, but as the chopper (2) is shorted, it doesn't do a darn thing. 5) The 2 oscillator transistors short as well. The total load on the 340V line is now the 3 shorted transistors, a few low-resistance inductors, and the 0.12 Ohm sense resistor. The latter explodes, feeding 340V into the sense circuitry, which dies expensively, often taking some PCB tracks with it. 6) The fuse fails... > By the way, where I could buy this real techref and how much? > Soooo, I could fix up it with addons to XT standards. > I got mine from IBM about 2 months ago. I'll try and find the part number/form number to order it if you like. > Jason D. > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 21:29:29 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? In-Reply-To: <199706232015.QAA28786@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 4:16 pm Message-ID: <199706232029.14863@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > You could also use a transformer with 2 separate 17V windings (they're > > more common than tapped ones in the UK). You'd link that up like this : > > > > > > Mains > > In 17V PC-jr power input > > ---------)||(--------------------( 1 > > )||( > > )||(---+ > > 110V )|| 0V +----------------( 2 > > )|| 17V| > > )||(---+ > > )||( > > ---------)||(--------------------( 3 > > Mains 0V > > In > > > > Notice the secondary connections put the 2 windings in (additive) series. > That works. BUT, you need to watch the direction of phase on those > paralleled transformers in secondaries and tied together > primaries. Watch the wattage rating. :) That's why I put the 0V and 17V markings on the schematic. In the UK, it's conventional to mark the 'start' of a winding with 0V and the 'end' with the appropriate voltage. > Jason D. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 11:42:54 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:34 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231950.13633@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199706231938.PAA24628@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 3:38 pm Message-ID: <199706232042.QAA01449@mail.cgocable.net> Tony, > > I'm not sure I understand that at all. I assume you're saying that it's a > 12-0-12 trasformer (or actually 17-0-17 - I am _sure_ 17V is mentioned > somewhere in the IBM manual). Oh, It was just a unloaded probing run to figure out what voltage is there because my reference is all screwed up. Actually did it with a regular small transformer not those center tapped ones. Sorry. > Do you agree with the circuits I've just sent out? If not, could you > please tell me where I've gone wrong? > Yours is fine. :) > > Hello? Knock, knock...:) Anyway I did clearly remember that 17v ac Don't take as a poke, I was just in jest, good mood. :) > > Yes, I'm here... Whew. > > Yes, that sounds 100% reasonable. I may be from Cambridge, but I do > understand _some_ electrical engineering :-) (Seriously, I had to explain > jsut that to a 3rd year student in electrical engineering the other > week..... There is something wrong with the world.) You got my ears peaked up. What was that trouble with this 3rd student's error? > > After all 'There is no such thing as ground' What you take as a 0V > reference is entirely up to you. Really? Common, ground, 0V, neutral, power return makes my mind spin but I adapt to what you're talking about...so you're not talking mumbo-jumbo stuff. :) > > The inefficiency in a linear PSU is in the regulator (which wastes energy > as heat) and not (in general) in the rectifier or smoothing circuit. Of > course a high-frequency SMPS can get away with smaller smoothing > capacitors and a smaller (ferrite-cored) transfoemer. I know about this linears heating problem and I do have a old Asus P/I-P55TP4XEG pentium which has one on board. HOT as sun and must air-forced cooled on it keep it bit warm not hot. :) But my Asus P/I-P55T2P4 rev 3.x new board now uses switchers on it and they use tiny heatsinks and stayed cool even they're able to channel 10amp through them. Impressive. And more IMPRESSIVELY is that Asus's new VX and TX boards uses these SMT switchers without any heatsink, relying on ground planes to spread heat out and radiated off. Why I had to get new one? Old XEG I/O chip blown by static accidently but I removed that SMT 100 legged IC and it worked again for other purposes for now. > > > > > Efficient power supplies are switching type, little heat > > and low losses in conversion process plus very light weight. > > But they use same design in outputs (secondaries but for some who > > knows electronics, these uses high frequency or fast recovery diodes) > > See my comment on that crazy Zenith PSU that I mentioned in an earlier > post.... Done and replied! :) > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill > Jason D. From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 11:53:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <199706230813.7137@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > This is true, but if you want to do strange things with PC (or any other) > > > hardware then design the card you need. It's not that hard, and it won't > > > affect the machine's performance in other areas. > > > > But its much faster and easier to do it with software. One of the > > Maybe for you. I find it a lot easier to solder up a card (which has a > good chance of working first or second time...) than to write and debug > software. In all my recent projects the hardware (quite complex hardware > - 10's of chips) has taken a lot less time than the (minimal) software. Depends on your forte. Mine happens to be software. I'll bet I can write the software faster than you can solder the board. HOWEVER, I'll also wager that you have a lot more flexibility since you can design in features to your hardware that I cannot program in to my software. > > things that made the Apple so nice was that it was an excellent > > prototyping machine. You had all sorts of inputs and outputs with which > > to play with. You didn't need to spend time designing an interface card, > > the Apple was experimenter ready! Just add software. > > The standard I/O (on the games port) consisted of (IIRC) a few > resitor-reading ADCs, a few single-bit inputs and a few outputs. Not a lot > IMHO. The BBC micro had 8 I/O lines, another 8 outputs if you didn't use > the printer port, handshake lines for all those, 4 ADC channels (10 bit, I > think) _and_ a system bus with a couple of decoded chip select signals on > it. That's what I call an experimenter's machine. > > And is it that hard to design an address decoder? It's one chip these > days, probably 2 or 3 at the time the Apple 2 was 'current' Probably or you know for sure? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 11:50:36 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? In-Reply-To: <199706232029.14863@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199706232015.QAA28786@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 4:16 pm Message-ID: <199706232050.QAA02285@mail.cgocable.net> Tony, Nip to save bandwidth! > > > In > > > > > > Notice the secondary connections put the 2 windings in (additive) series. > > That works. BUT, you need to watch the direction of phase on those > > paralleled transformers in secondaries and tied together > > primaries. Watch the wattage rating. :) > > That's why I put the 0V and 17V markings on the schematic. In the UK, it's > conventional to mark the 'start' of a winding with 0V and the 'end' with > the appropriate voltage. For us, we use dot(s for more than one seperate windings) near the diagram of winding to show which way the direction of windings and write out one AC voltage outputs for each windings. Yes, in metric too! Jason D. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 21:51:06 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 23, 97 9:53 am Message-ID: <199706232051.15624@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Maybe for you. I find it a lot easier to solder up a card (which has a > > good chance of working first or second time...) than to write and debug > > software. In all my recent projects the hardware (quite complex hardware > > - 10's of chips) has taken a lot less time than the (minimal) software. > > Depends on your forte. Mine happens to be software. I'll bet I can Agreed 100%. I happen to be like Steve Ciarcia - 'my favourite programming language is solder'. > write the software faster than you can solder the board. HOWEVER, I'll I wouldn't bet on it.... I've been known to go from idea to working prototype in < 1 day. > also wager that you have a lot more flexibility since you can design in > features to your hardware that I cannot program in to my software. And if I'm allowed to use some of those Xilinx FPGA chips, I can even design reconfigurable hardware that you can change by just downloading a new file.... [...] > > And is it that hard to design an address decoder? It's one chip these > > days, probably 2 or 3 at the time the Apple 2 was 'current' > > Probably or you know for sure? Well, lets see... Does anyone know when the 74LS68x series came out? Were they around when the Apple ][ was current. PALs were sort-of current, and I guess a 14L4 would be an ideal address decoder. That's one chip if I can use a PAL or 2 if I can use a couple of 74LS68x's (to decode an entire 16 bit address bus) If you insist I stick to 'classic' TTL then I'd want a 74LS133 13 input NAND gate, and a couple of 74LS04 inverters. That would decode just about any combination of 13 address lines. If you want all 16, then add a 74LS138 for a total of 4 chip max (and you might get away with only one '04 if you're lucky. > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 23 16:54:12 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 23, 97 10:01:32 am Message-ID: <9706232054.AA31204@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970623/e4b69075/attachment-0001.ksh From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 21:57:28 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706232042.QAA01449@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 4:42 pm Message-ID: <199706232057.15805@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Yes, that sounds 100% reasonable. I may be from Cambridge, but I do > > understand _some_ electrical engineering :-) (Seriously, I had to explain > > jsut that to a 3rd year student in electrical engineering the other > > week..... There is something wrong with the world.) > You got my ears peaked up. What was that trouble with this 3rd > student's error? A couple of things. Firstly I had to explain that if you connect cells/batteries in series then the voltages add but if you connect (equal voltage) them in parallel the voltage is unchanged but the internal resistance and capacity are increased. Secondly I had to explain that as the battery could 'float' with respect to the 0V rail, you could use a -5V regulator as a supply for a board of logic devices. > > > > After all 'There is no such thing as ground' What you take as a 0V > > reference is entirely up to you. > Really? Common, ground, 0V, neutral, power return makes my mind spin > but I adapt to what you're talking about...so you're not talking > mumbo-jumbo stuff. :) The point is that you can connect the -ve lead of your voltmeter wherever you like. There is no god-given 0V point. If you have a circuit that takes in 3V and gives out -5V (a common SMPS chip can be configured to do just that) you can easily run some TTL from it. The '-5V' line from the PSU becomes the '0V' line on the logic and the '0V' line on the PSU is the '+5V' line on the logic. Of course you have to be _very_ careful if any voltages are referenced to anything else, like mains ground. > I know about this linears heating problem and I do have a old Asus I have a 5V 50A _linear_ in one of my Unibus expanison boxes (a 3rd party one - DEC almost always used SMPS's). It runs hot. > Jason D. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Mon Jun 23 15:55:01 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199706232055.PAA19803@fudge.uchicago.edu> Sam Ismail wrote, > You can find one for sale from time to time on the usenet. What I am > looking for is an expansion box called the Spartan which enable the C64 > to run Apple ][ software. It was an emulator, basically. Emulator gives it too much credit, I think -- more like an Apple II clone that happens to use the C64's display and keyboard. Would you really want to emulate a 6502 with a 1MHz 6502? :) > On another note, has anyone ever seen (or have) a Basis-xxx? I know it > has a number in the name, but I can't remember it. The number is 108, but no, I don't have one. eric From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jun 23 15:23:32 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: References: <199706230316.AA05134@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <2560C6C20129@ifrsys.com> > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:20:16 +0000 (GMT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Yes, there are plenty of true innovations today, but most are simply hype... > > Example: Anything from Microsoft. > > Now, now, no slamming of manufacturers, regardless of you religous faith! Peace. Jeff From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 21:59:45 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? In-Reply-To: <199706232050.QAA02285@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 4:50 pm Message-ID: <199706232059.15869@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > That's why I put the 0V and 17V markings on the schematic. In the UK, it's > > conventional to mark the 'start' of a winding with 0V and the 'end' with > > the appropriate voltage. > For us, we use dot(s for more than one seperate windings) near the > diagram of winding to show which way the direction of windings and > write out one AC voltage outputs for each windings. Yes, in metric > too! Yes, I've seen that convention. But if you buy a transformer over here, the connection tags will be labelled 0V and 17V or whatever. I've never seen a physical transformer marked with a dot (that's not to say they don't exist). > > Jason D. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Mon Jun 23 15:59:16 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199706232059.PAA19881@fudge.uchicago.edu> Sam Ismail wrote, > > Debugging. You can run your program on one screen, and have debugging > > output/debugger output on the second screen. I did that once on a PS/2 when > > I was writing code to manage the 8514 display. It was very nice to see not > > only the output, but have the debugger not munging the display. > > You couldn't do that on an Apple. It only had one video output. Unless > the 80-col card in question had a seperate video output. And then you'd > have to go back to that clever programming thing. But that is how traditional Apple II 80-column cards worked -- they had their own video output that you had to attach to another monitor or switch back and forth by hand. The spiffy ones had a switch to flip back and forth, or the *really* spiffy ones could even do it in software. But it was only with the IIe that the 80-column video started to be automatically a part of the internal video output. Before that, the card might as well have been a terminal attached to a Super Serial card. eric From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 23 17:05:15 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <199706232051.15624@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 23, 97 09:51:06 pm Message-ID: <9706232105.AA11236@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1314 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970623/211dd038/attachment-0001.ksh From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Mon Jun 23 16:02:22 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts In-Reply-To: <9706232054.AA31204@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <9706232054.AA31204@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <199706232102.QAA19944@fudge.uchicago.edu> Tim Shoppa wrote, > > On another note, has anyone ever seen (or have) a Basis-xxx? > > I believe these were designed/built in Europe, probably Germany. The US advertising went something like "Some people drive fine German machines to work. Some people drive fine German machines once they get there." I think this was accompanied with a picture of someone typing on it wearing leather gloves, but I may be must mixing it up with Apple's ill-fated "test drive a Macintosh" ad campaign. eric From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 23 17:09:01 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706232057.15805@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 23, 97 09:57:28 pm Message-ID: <9706232109.AA11912@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 379 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970623/c35c0b12/attachment-0001.ksh From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 22:13:41 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <9706232105.AA11236@alph02.triumf.ca>; from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 23, 97 2:05 pm Message-ID: <199706232113.16285@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > Well, lets see... Does anyone know when the 74LS68x series came out? Were > > they around when the Apple ][ was current. PALs were sort-of current, and > > I guess a 14L4 would be an ideal address decoder. > > Ah - if you think of 74LS68x and 14L4's as "current" with the introduction Well, I knew the PALs were a little later (1980?) - the first PERQ had no PALs at all - only PROMs, TTL, ECL, RAMs and Z80 stuff. Later ones were stuffed with PALs. When did the 74LS68x come out. I have no idea. > > If you insist I stick to 'classic' TTL then I'd want a 74LS133 13 input > > NAND gate, and a couple of 74LS04 inverters. That would decode just about > > any combination of 13 address lines. If you want all 16, then add a > > 74LS138 for a total of 4 chip max (and you might get away with only one > > '04 if you're lucky. > > Remember, 4 more chips increases the chip count on a Disk ][ by 50 > percent! So? I think of it as 4 more cheap chips, not a 50% increase in hardware. And yes I do realise that the cost of chips is hardly the end of the story - board area and layout costs a lot more than TTL. > > If you don't like having the traditional slot addresses predecoded, > you've always been able to do your own decoding. The resulting > cards won't be compatible with the existing scheme of slot > addressing, so you better write your own operating systems and > languages so that the users can use your new devices :-) I dislike the idea of geographical addressing which limits the number of slots you can have, and means the user has to know which slot things are in. I didn't like the bank-switching scheme for the ROMs on the I/O cards, but as address space was tight (although a lot was wasted by those addressable latches used as 'soft switches), I guess nothing else was possible. > > Tim. > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Jun 23 22:14:51 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <9706232109.AA11912@alph02.triumf.ca>; from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 23, 97 2:09 pm Message-ID: <199706232114.16401@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > A couple of things. Firstly I had to explain that if you connect > > cells/batteries in series then the voltages add but if you connect (equal > > voltage) them in parallel the voltage is unchanged but the internal > > resistance and capacity are increased. > > Gees, you'd confuse me, too, if you tried to > convince me that paralleling cells > will increase internal resistance. > Ouch!!!. Of course I meant that the intenal resistance was _decreased_ and the capacity was increased... What was I thinking???? > Tim. > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 12:20:51 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706232026.14795@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199706232010.QAA28223@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 4:10 pm Message-ID: <199706232120.RAA05621@mail.cgocable.net> Tony, Ok that is no problem with PCjr matter. :) > Yep, so do I. Most SMPS faults are pretty simple (at least if the > transformer has not got shorted turns...). And it's certainly worth doing > for the more obscure supplies (i.e. not generic PC ones...) Shorted turns is very, very rare in SMPS that I came across. Long run of lucky I guess. > > > as the reference. It's the only monitor that _requires_ a green power-on > > > LED. When my blew up (chopper failed, etc), I replaced the entire mess > > > with a little torroidal transformer. It was cheaper than a new chopper > > > transistor and a lot simpler. > > > Using LED as a reference? That is poor idea to do that! It should have put the sense line on that heavy current line to work. Hmmm your hack to feed 20vac there looked better! :) > Actually, the 50Hz 30VA transformer was no larger than the original > bits... Cool! > > > Are you talking about this beige tiny 12" green or amber monitor with > > That's the one. > > > angular back? In this, chopper trans pops and kills one resistor. > > Well, I had shorted turns in the chopper transformer (tested on a homebrew > 'ring tester'). It didn't seem worth rewinding. Too bad that happened! That is pretty rare for me. > I still have mine on a much-hacked PC/AT Oh yea, it looked nice and impossibly compact. I prefer TTL there than composite unless it is for color. > > It may as well go here - it's just about on-topic.... > > The basic circuit design is : > > 1) Rectify/double the AC mains input to give 340V DC > 2) Feed that into a non-isolated 'flyback' converter to step it down to > 150V. hi frenquency ac or dc at that point? > 3) Feed the output of that into a free-running push-pull oscillator using > a couple of big power transistors. Well, I can't imagine that would able to work if the power is ac to that push/pull trans? > 4) That oscillator drives the primary of the main transformer Snip! loads of worthless protection info... :) > drive to (2) if it overcurrents. > > Now, here's what goes wrong. > > 1) The chopper (2) shorts. The output of that stage now leaps to 340V > (since there's a DC path through the shorted transistor and the inductor) Ah! Not a transformer just a giant inductor driven by that chopper? :) that would be a biggest OUCHIE! Why not jerryjig a design to clamp down based on voltage level when exceeding 150v at this point when chopper went so it will blow the fuse instead? > 2) The oscillator (3) continues running, so the 5V line leaps to about 12V > 3) The crowbar trips, shorting the output to ground > 4) The overcurrent trip tries to work, but as the chopper (2) is shorted, > it doesn't do a darn thing. Other option, Why not use this output of this crowbar to trip other clamper at the 340vdc output to blow the fuse instantly? You want to blow the fuse first before the last 2 trans dies resulting in expensive heap of smelly stuff. :) > 5) The 2 oscillator transistors short as well. The total load on the 340V > line is now the 3 shorted transistors, a few low-resistance inductors, and > the 0.12 Ohm sense resistor. The latter explodes, feeding 340V into the > sense circuitry, which dies expensively, often taking some PCB tracks with > it. > 6) The fuse fails... What a load of smelly results and worthless fuse there! :( > I got mine from IBM about 2 months ago. I'll try and find the part > number/form number to order it if you like. Thank you, I will find out how it costs when I have that part number. Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 12:27:04 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? In-Reply-To: <199706232059.15869@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199706232050.QAA02285@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 4:50 pm Message-ID: <199706232126.RAA06293@mail.cgocable.net> > Yes, I've seen that convention. But if you buy a transformer over here, > the connection tags will be labelled 0V and 17V or whatever. I've never > seen a physical transformer marked with a dot (that's not to say they > don't exist). Yeah, nothing marked to tell us of phases. :) So that invites mistakes by unwary who makes power supplies on their own. That why I offered warning. :) (hey, my power supply did not work...) eyes up. :) Jason D. From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jun 23 16:34:59 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? Message-ID: <199706232131.QAA14527@challenge.sunflower.com> Okay, I asked a simple question. Got 3 differnt answers, and folks referring to "over here" and whatever. I live in the US, I will need to go to radio shack to build this. Which diagram is the safest, what parts do I need, and what do I do. ---------- > From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: IBM PCjr Allright????? > Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 12:27 PM > > > > Yes, I've seen that convention. But if you buy a transformer over here, > > the connection tags will be labelled 0V and 17V or whatever. I've never > > seen a physical transformer marked with a dot (that's not to say they > > don't exist). > Yeah, nothing marked to tell us of phases. :) So that invites > mistakes by unwary who makes power supplies on their own. That why I > offered warning. :) > > (hey, my power supply did not work...) eyes up. :) > > Jason D. From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 23 16:30:06 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <2560C6C20129@ifrsys.com> References: <199706230316.AA05134@interlock.ans.net> <2560C6C20129@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <33b0ea96.18951151@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 14:23:32 -0600, you wrote: %> %> Example: Anything from Microsoft. %> %> % %Now, now, no slamming of manufacturers, regardless of you religous %faith! And 10 years down the road, you'll be begging for an original copy of Windows 95 (the version launched in 1995) to add to your collection. :-) Ben From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Jun 23 16:47:43 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Apple III+'s for sale Message-ID: but *not* from me! Read carefully! Forwarded from comp.apple2.marketplace --- Begin forwarded message --- Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 05:22:35 -0600 From: HartranftR@nabisco.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.marketplace Subject: Apple III's for sale FYI ... I have 5 Apple ///'s for sale (improved re-release version), including original monitors. Some with 512K memory. Some peripherals also, including spare parts, Corvus 20 meg server with related Apple III interface cards. Would prefer selling at least computers/monitors in bulk and will consider any reasonable offers. I understand there are now thriving museums and actual user groups still utilizing. If NOT interested, would appreciate any leads for other possible contacts. These machines actually served us quite well ! Thanks Rich H -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet --- end of forwarded message --- -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 12:50:19 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Allright????? In-Reply-To: <199706232131.QAA14527@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <199706232150.RAA08691@mail.cgocable.net> Bill, Sorry for all those conflicts... through. > Okay, I asked a simple question. Got 3 differnt answers, and folks > referring to "over here" and whatever. > > I live in the US, I will need to go to radio shack to build this. Huh huh uh uh ... 'bout the Rat Shock, Bascially mostly wires and plugs etc.. all you can use wires and few connectors but does not hurt to check for PCjr's connector and none has the transformers at 17volts. But they do have experimenter's boxes of any sizes and shapes, basic most electronic parts that nearly no one could use. :)) Only 12v types. You need to find local electronic supplier and order two regular transformers 17ac at 2amp each or one center tapped transformer of 17vac-0-17vac around 33watts or 2amp each if supplier has it or cheaper whichever. > Which diagram is the safest, what parts do I need, and what do I do. Wait until you find out where you can get a transformer of either two types dual transformers or one center tap then apply proper circuit to either one of two types. Also, better put a fast acting 1.5amp fuse on primary side of 120vac and insulate well all properly soldered connections and box it up with grounded plug for safety sake!!! Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 12:53:04 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Apple III+'s for sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706232152.RAA08935@mail.cgocable.net> > Subject: Apple III+'s for sale Knock, knock hello Rich? Nary a price for each system with add ons in sight! > but *not* from me! Read carefully! > > Forwarded from comp.apple2.marketplace > > --- Begin forwarded message --- > > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 05:22:35 -0600 > From: HartranftR@nabisco.com > Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.marketplace > Subject: Apple III's for sale > > FYI ... I have 5 Apple ///'s for sale (improved re-release > version), including original monitors. Some with 512K memory. Some > peripherals also, including spare parts, Corvus 20 meg server with > related Apple III interface cards. Would prefer selling at least > computers/monitors in bulk and will consider any reasonable offers. I > understand there are now thriving museums and actual user groups still > utilizing. If NOT interested, would appreciate any leads for other > possible contacts. These machines actually served us quite well ! > > Thanks > Rich H From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 23 17:24:43 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) References: Message-ID: <33AEF7AB.26EA@ndirect.co.uk> Scott Walde wrote: > > > This is STILL an American computer. You seem not to be interested in > > others like the Sopectrum, the BBC, Oric Atmos, Camputers Linx, Oric 1, > > Jupiter Ace etc. > > I've been looking for a Jupiter Ace for over 10 years! Do you have any > leads on them? How many do you need? Perahps I have not been clear enough: I live in GB and I collect, sell, swap, trade British home computers. If you fell like you could go and have a look at my collection at: I have many duplicates and will gladly accept/receive help from any interested parties. enrico (I didn't realize that they were not American computers, > as I learned about them in Creative Computing like all the rest.) > > > enrico > > ttfn > srw -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 23 17:31:12 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) References: Message-ID: <33AEF930.74DE@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > This is STILL an American computer. You seem not to be interested in > > others like the Sopectrum, the BBC, Oric Atmos, Camputers Linx, Oric 1, > > Jupiter Ace etc. > > WHATEVER dude. Why don't you send me each of the computers you mentioned > above, and to prove to you I am interested, I WILL KEEP THEM! > > Sam The answer is negative but you can SEE them in my site... enrico > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Jun 23 17:30:15 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Update Message-ID: Phew. Well I've pruned through my mail and made it to the bottom. To all of you who sent me personal e-mail over the last week - I'll get back to you in the next couple days. I'll also work on processing all the unsubs. On topic - this weekend I picked up some stuff: Need info on: Acorn monitor with strange connector, switch selects modes I, II, III 5 1/4" floppy drive for Atari ST (no brand) Just gloating: Apple IIgs with monitor and 5.25" drive (ROM 1) for $15 Stack of needed manuals at 0.39$ ea. (I'll post duplicates) Apple Disk III drive Franklin Ace 1000 An interesting one - I already have a 1000 and unforch. I think this one is too damaged to save (crushed case - cracked board). The thing is it has a strange disk controller which the Disk III (as in Apple II disk drive) was attached to. It also has a video board of some kind. No part numbers but I'll play around with it some more later. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From cerebral at michianatoday.com Mon Jun 23 17:48:45 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... Message-ID: <22484594801260@michianatoday.com> You are correct about the slowness of the 1541, and I was not saying the 64 was 100% perfect, but for the money, the 64 still gives more bang in the video and sound department. and recently, CMD (Creative Micro Designs) wrote a new OS called JiffyDOS. it was comaptible with the original ROM, but used better timing loops that increased the serial bus performance! you just replace the ROM in the motherboard, and the rom in the 1541 with jiffydos, and the results were fantastic, just by rewriting the firmware, the 1541 was now FASTER than a 486 running MS-Hoss with a 5.25 drive. but no matter what 8 bit cpu you use, it is amazing what you can do with 1 MHZ by proper software design. I also timed the performace with a stopwatch, and I loaded a large music editor from the same disk, 1541 drive, with and without jiffyDOS stock 1541 1541 with Jdos 1 minute 20 sec 10 SECONDS!!! pretty spiffy eh? From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 23 18:12:40 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: My current For Trade/Wanted List Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20546F27E@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> -------------------- Wanted: -------------------- Apple I * Altair 680 * Altair 8800a ("a" only) * Altair disk system * Compucolor II or 8051 Apple Lisa Exidy Sorcerer IBM 5100 KIM-1 RCA COSMAC (ELF/VIP) Commodore PET dual floppy system model 2040 Commodore SX-64 Portable (only if cheap or local) TRS-80 Model III (only if cheap or local) * Will trade Altair 8800b up/down/across for Apple I, or Altair equipment. Will also make substantial cash offers for these items and will reward leads. -------------------- For Trade: -------------------- North Star Horizon (wood case model) Apple ///+ Mattel Aquarius C64 in original color display box Kaypro II (wonky keyboard; FREE if you pick up, Seattle area) (Must sell/trade! Need space! Especially good deals available for LOCALS with reasonably interesting trades and/or cash offers, since that saves me so much time and effort with shipping!) Kai From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 23 17:55:44 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Friend Has Altos and Sanyo For Sale Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20546F25D@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> A friend of mine has the following systems available for sale (he's not a collector). Neither of us could really come up with a price, since these systems are a little out of my line. The Sanyo is a Z80 (not to be confused with the later MBC-550 which was an early 8088 MS-DOS clone). Both are in full operating condition. Altos 586 - 8086/512K - Xenix 3.0b - With 2 terminals (supports 8-9 users) - Hard drive - Floppy - Xenix Multiplan, etc. Sanyo MBC-1000 - Z80A - Built-in monitor - Single floppy - External 10MB HD - Keyboard - CP/M, WordStar, CalcStar, etc. email thadh@microsoft.com with offers (local preferred due to the size of this stuff) From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jun 23 18:35:22 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Message-ID: <970623193521_-1797545166@emout13.mail.aol.com> ive also got a pcjr, with a 128k module and a printer adaptor. isnt this thing supposed to run whatever cartridge you plug in? i noticed it resets when you insert one. my pcjr only boots to basic because ive been too lazy to make a dos 3.3 boot disk. i also have a joystick and serial/video/rf mod./300b modem in all their original boxes too along with a tech ref and basic guide. i have a cable/dongle for it that will let you plug in a standard cga monitor into the back. if anyone's interested, i could post the pinouts of the dongle so you can use cga. the last hamfest i went to have pcjr stuff for $1 a peice! that's where i got my missing psu from. david From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Jun 23 18:42:55 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Basis 108 (was Re: C64 CP/M carts) In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:01:32 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199706232342.QAA28878@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail writes: > On another note, has anyone ever seen (or have) a Basis-xxx? I know it > has a number in the name, but I can't remember it. It was an Apple ][ > clone that also ran CP/M I believe? Something like that. I'm sure > someone knows about it. I only knew one guy who ever had one, but I never > saw it. It was a friend in high school back in 1989. Yep, a Basis 108. They are something like the Apple ][+ with integrated language card, Microsoft Softcard and some sort of 80-column display on the motherboard, all housed in a big brown cast metal case with a detachable keyboard. Um...there are also integrated serial and parallel I/O, but I think there was something not-quite-compatible about the way they were decoded so one or the other or maybe both did not appear to be at the canonical slot addresses. They were made in Germany and imported into the US. I can't remember all the details, but I think Apple tried to restrict their import for a while (maybe due to ROM copyright issues?) and the distributor changed hands and/or locations a couple of times. For a while it was in Scotts Valley, CA, then I think went to somewhere in New England. Maybe I have it backwards. I bought one used (via the net) for ~$500 ca. 1991 because I missed my Apple ][+ (had left it with Mom, who just did not get the hang of Wordstar under CP/M and now has a Mac Plus, and yes I got my ][+ back). And the posted ad was for a dream system: Basis 108, PCPI Applicard, Vista 8" disk controller, Videx Ultraterm with a good monitor that could really show the lotsa-text you could get with one of those. All the stuff I had had in my ][+ and, more importantly, *all the stuff I had lusted after*. The only problems were due to some carelessness in packing, and the system was shipped from Connecticut to California. Mistakes submitted for your educational experience: The floppy drives are mounted by way of having brackets screwed to them which are then screwed to the base. The end result is that for each of two floppy drives there are these two brackets holding a floppy drive some distance above the base. Well, the shipper left them in, and UPS threw the package around enough that the brackets deformed and broke loose from the base. So the floppy drives with brackets could rattle around inside. (To be fair, I'm not sure I'd have caught this either, but I certainly won't ship things where two solid objects are connected quite like that -- not without dismantling them first.) He had also left the peripheral cards installed. Apple ][ peripheral cards just sit in their slots, there are no card guides or screws or anything like that. Well, guess what the floppy drives whacked into as they rattled around, not that I really think they would have stayed in place anyway. The boards weren't broken, but some of the ICs had been popped out and mashed. Between loose bits and spares that came with the system and other bits I had around I was able to get it working again, but still haven't replaced the floppy-drive brackets to my satisfaction. So it has a couple of gaping holes up front with half-height floppies showing where there should be full-height units. ... I don't have room to set the system up at present, so it is in storage. Except for its manuals, some of which are on loan to a friend of mine over the hill in Santa Cruz (who had one when he lived in Buffalo, NY and picked up another one at Weird Stuff a few years ago). If y'all have particular questions about this send e-mail and I will ask for them back and try to find the other bits in storage. It is a fairly thorough set of documentation, including user group newsletters, and would probably shed a little light on things I can't remember about it and Basis and the moves in distributorship and so forth. One other thing I remember about this system is that the previous owner had bought a set of Apple ROMs, then copied them *and* the Basis ROMs into 2732?s with a switch on the back to select one bank or the other. So he could boot with Basis or Apple personalities depending on what he needed to be compatible with. There were some things that depended on each, but I can't remember specifics. I remember seeing slicks somewhere in there for another Basis system that had two half-height 8" floppy drives in a similar case (different cutout up front for the floppies), and have the impression that that was a pure CP/M machine. Never saw one up close, though. Anyone know anything about that? -Frank McConnell From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 23 22:12:54 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: question concerning SWTP system References: <199706232342.QAA28878@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <33AF3B36.1C77@unix.aardvarkol.com> I'm looking at picking up a 6809 based system by SWTP. It has a couple of RAM cards, a serial card, parallel card, and the CPU card, all on the SS-50 bus, and it has OS-9 ROMS in it. The seller doesn't know if it's functional or not. Is there anyone familiar with these machines? Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From danjo at xnet.com Mon Jun 23 19:14:01 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: <24B2F4A36CCE@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > Brett wrote: > > As I remember the 4004 was actually Intels first micro-cpu and I don't > ^^^^ > > know of any commercial product that used them - but I don't know > > everything. Any product types and names? > > Yes! I do! I do! (Hand raised, flailing about) > When I worked for John Fluke Mfg. in the early eighties, I used to > repair their 6010 & 6012 audio frequency synthesizers. These used > one 4004 processors for EVERYTHING; keyboard control, display > generation (one led segment at a time), synthesizer latch loading, > level control etc. > > It was one BUSY little chip. Duh! I knew that - I really did! Now for a VERY serious question - You - ah - still have any ties with Fluke???? I would be your friend for LIFE if you could get me a 1722 - huh huh???? I would also want the Hard Drive option - (heck I am wishing!) And the Assembler disk and the Fortran disk and the Basic disk! Nicest little box I ever played with. Nobody else here probably knows what this is but I would also like to get my hands on a Numeridex 7000. Second nicest little box I ever played with. Both of these where industrial strength machines. The quantities sold for both where relatively small. Also they were HIGH priced. Anybody seen - got - know of them? BC From kyrrin at wizards.net Mon Jun 23 19:22:54 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Need source for... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970623172254.00f823a0@mail.wizards.net> In the process of getting ready to upgrade my RQD11 QBus/SCSI adapter to near-current level, I discovered that I need a source for a hard-to-get PROM. Specifically, one of two parts should do it. Signetics 82HS189 AMD AM27S281A I've already checked with the manufacturers and a couple of local distributors. Yes, I'll be looking for these on my upcoming scrounging trip, but it would be a Really Cool Thing if someone could point me at a source for them. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jun 23 19:24:43 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: PLEASE READ - suggestions to reduce list traffic Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20546F307@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I'd like to suggest that we all keep in mind the following tenets to help reduce the amount of superfluous traffic on this discussion list: - If your reply is to one individual, please send directly to them (you'll have to override your email program's default Reply address). - Please direct responses to solicitations such as group purchases, etc. directly to the solicitor only. thanks! Kai From spc at armigeron.com Mon Jun 23 19:26:25 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: <199706230828.7246@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 23, 97 09:28:43 am Message-ID: <199706240026.UAA18752@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great A.R. Duell once stated: > > > If what you described above is correct, then did it work? If so, it > > Yes, it worked. It still works 100% AFAIK > > > wasn't such a bad design after all, was it? If not, then yeah, the design > > A bad design can still work. Case in point: the IBM PC. And forgoing the choice of CPU [1], there were still hardware problems with it (IRQ 7 was lost due to the signal not being buffered, and then there's the whole problem with not sharing IRQs to begin with ... ) -spc (Still amazed that the PC is the only computer (I know of) that can't share IRQs ... ) [1] Given the time frame, contraints, politics and projected life expentancy of Project Chess, the choice of an 8088 isn't THAT bad. Not going with CP/M on the other hand ... From spc at armigeron.com Mon Jun 23 19:39:02 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Jr. Dragons? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970623111629.0069c7c0@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> from "James Carter" at Jun 23, 97 11:17:52 am Message-ID: <199706240039.UAA18797@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great James Carter once stated: > > It's been years since I fiddled with a PCjr. It has a self test, to > activate press Control-Alternate-Insert. Can't remember the specifics of > the self test though. > It lets you test all the major components (video, memory, keyboard, disk) of the PCjr. Not much to it really. -spc (Fun machine - and the Football game you could get for it was killer ... ) From spc at armigeron.com Mon Jun 23 19:42:48 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 23, 97 09:27:41 am Message-ID: <199706240042.UAA18820@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Sam Ismail once stated: > On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > > > > That was a limitation introduced with the //e. The 80 column board had > > > its own special slot that took over slot 3 if you had it populated. > > > However, nothing was stopping you from putting another 80-column board > > > (such as a Videx) in another slot and using that, although I can't think > > > for the life of me why you'd need two 80-column cards. > > > > > Debugging. You can run your program on one screen, and have debugging > > output/debugger output on the second screen. I did that once on a PS/2 when > > I was writing code to manage the 8514 display. It was very nice to see not > > only the output, but have the debugger not munging the display. > > You couldn't do that on an Apple. It only had one video output. Unless > the 80-col card in question had a seperate video output. And then you'd > have to go back to that clever programming thing. > Ah. Never got into Apples myself (the only Apple computer I have is the Newton, which just died on me 8-( -spc (Well, it still works, just that the presure sensitive screen is no longer sensitive it seems ... ) From manney at nwohio.com Mon Jun 23 19:19:31 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: My current For Trade/Wanted List Message-ID: <199706240110.SAA06905@mx5.u.washington.edu> I have an SX-64. don't lnow if it works, without KB cord (has KB, though.) Manney From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 23 20:48:19 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr References: <970623193521_-1797545166@emout13.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33AF2763.5CC8@rain.org> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > standard cga monitor into the back. if anyone's interested, i could post the > pinouts of the dongle so you can use cga. the last hamfest i went to have As I recall, the PC Jr. does not use CGA but rather EGA. Something in the back of my mind says that the REAL PC Jr. monitor is not quite EGA but definetely better than CGA. From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 23 20:51:44 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) References: Message-ID: <33AF2830.3F32@rain.org> Brett wrote: > > Nobody else here probably knows what this is but I would also like to get > my hands on a Numeridex 7000. Second nicest little box I ever played with. > Numeridex mainly provided NC Controllers and supplies as I recall. As such, you might start asking someone who owns a machine shop. Hmmm, if Numeridex is still in business, you might even ask them who has one in your area! From spc at armigeron.com Mon Jun 23 20:59:33 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <33AF2763.5CC8@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jun 23, 97 06:48:19 pm Message-ID: <199706240159.VAA19044@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Marvin once stated: > > SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > > > standard cga monitor into the back. if anyone's interested, i could post the > > pinouts of the dongle so you can use cga. the last hamfest i went to have > > As I recall, the PC Jr. does not use CGA but rather EGA. Something in > the back of my mind says that the REAL PC Jr. monitor is not quite EGA > but definetely better than CGA. It supports two modes that CGA doesn't: 320x200 16 color and 640x200 4 color, in addition to the other CGA modes. The 320x200 16 mode isn't quite EGA in layout though - the palette registers only support 2 bits of red, 2 of green and 2 of blue, and the layout of the pixels follows (more or less) the CGA standard than the EGA bitplanes. Each byte held two pixels (four bits per pixel) and the memory layout was: 0x0000: 2000 bytes of screen information, each line 40 bytes, lines evenly divisible by 0 0x2000: 2000 bytes of screen information, each line 40 bytes, line % 4 == 1 0x4000: 2000 bytes of screen information, each line 40 bytes, line % 4 == 2 0x6000: 2000 bytes of screen information, each line 40 bytes, line % 4 == 3 The 620x200 4 color mode was similarly laid (layed?) out, only there were four pixels per byte (2 bits per pixel). -spc (Although with proper programming, the CGA could support 160x100 16 colors (or was it 160x200?)) From william at ans.net Mon Jun 23 21:13:26 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <9706232105.AA11236@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <199706240213.AA06607@interlock.ans.net> > Ah - if you think of 74LS68x and 14L4's as "current" with the introduction > of the Apple II, then that helps (to some extent) explain why you > don't like Wozniak's designs. Neither of these devices were even > gleams in anybody's eyes in 1977! The closest you'll come to programmable > logic in 1977 are bipolar PROM's. (Which Woz was no stranger to - > just take a look at the Disk ][ controller!) Signetic (I think it was them) had some PAL like devices back in the mid-1970s. I do not think they were as flexible as PALs, but they did combine the best of the PROM and glue worlds for decoding schemes. William Donzelli william@ans.net From danjo at xnet.com Mon Jun 23 21:18:15 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) In-Reply-To: <33AF2830.3F32@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > Brett wrote: > > Nobody else here probably knows what this is but I would also like to get > > my hands on a Numeridex 7000. Second nicest little box I ever played with. > > Numeridex mainly provided NC Controllers and supplies as I recall. As > such, you might start asking someone who owns a machine shop. Hmmm, if > Numeridex is still in business, you might even ask them who has one in > your area! You've done too much Marvin 8-) Since I just thought of this today and your message - made me look 8-) Numeridex, Inc. 241 Holbrook Dr. Wheeling, IL 60090 U.S.A. Al Hoyos 800-323-7737, FAX: 847-541-8392 I will be calling them tomorrow - Why do I post this here? in the mid-80's they were the single largest vendor of - paper and mylar punch tape 8-) How do I know - I used to work for them. They sold off the Numeri-Power CNC Programming *division* - I think to some Swiss company that needed a programming system for thier wire EDM machines. I was the maintenance department for the earlier software. I will check and see if they still sell a paper tape punch/reader and tape - BEST backup device ever made (except against fire 8-) The reason I liked the 7000 so much was the display. It used a - I want to say NEC 7202 display chip - might be wrong tho. It allowed vector graphics and text to share the same screen. You could tell it how much text and then anything above that was graphics. It took basically plotting commands to do the graphics. Never did understand why that didn't catch on! Also it ran CP/M as well as thier *own* operating system. All kind of neat stuff. Now how about a Fluke 1722????? BC From danjo at xnet.com Mon Jun 23 21:26:48 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <199706240213.AA06607@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > Ah - if you think of 74LS68x and 14L4's as "current" with the introduction > > of the Apple II, then that helps (to some extent) explain why you > > don't like Wozniak's designs. Neither of these devices were even > > gleams in anybody's eyes in 1977! The closest you'll come to programmable > > logic in 1977 are bipolar PROM's. (Which Woz was no stranger to - > > just take a look at the Disk ][ controller!) > > Signetic (I think it was them) had some PAL like devices back in the > mid-1970s. I do not think they were as flexible as PALs, but they did > combine the best of the PROM and glue worlds for decoding schemes. Well, I don't know - you could have used the 7485 and dip switches/jumpers. 4 chips for 16-bit with one bit/word resolution for I/O. You could have used 3 chips and ended up with a *standard* 16 register address space for an 6522 or such. I am sure they were available in 1973. (But they wouldn't have been - ah - inexpensive. BC From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 23 21:46:18 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Historical Research References: Message-ID: <33AF34FA.91C@rain.org> One of the things *I* think would be really useful for collectors is to know the number of computers manufactured, both total and by year. The only problem is in getting this information; anyone have any ideas, insights, or better yet, connections to past people who would know or be able to get this information from companies that have ceased business? Thanks. From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 23 21:55:05 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: H8 Computer References: <199706231900.MAA24212@mx2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33AF3709.2C6B@rain.org> PG Manney wrote: > > > >What is a Heath H8 worth? > > I generally see H89's go for $25 US at hamfests. *I* wouldn't tie up $100 > unless it was lovely and I really wanted one. > I have several H89 computers and they were all given to me. However the H8 is a different matter, and this is the first one *I* have seen ... or perhaps recognized :). At any rate, I called the guy and told him I would take it and plan on picking it up tomorrow evening. The thing I find most interesting is that he is the one that built this machine, and all the stuff including docs are still with it. THAT caught my interest! From marcw at lightside.com Mon Jun 23 19:00:52 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr (some parts info you y'all) Message-ID: <199706240258.TAA02092@covina.lightside.com> Something is odd here. There was some 25 PCjr messages in my box. Somehow the discussion didn't get to me 'til it was underway. I did go through them but I don't know anything. :) Anyway, assuming PC Enterprises still carries this stuff, you might want to check with them. The catalogue also doubles as an information source since they give a few paragraphs on various tech stuff. For instance what happens when your system board malfunctions, etc. Here's some stuff from their PCjr catalogue that may be of interest. There's a lot so this is just a few. PCjr System Board #78739 $98 Power Supply Transformer (brick) #78712 $44 PCjr Power Supply Card (original) #78707 $49.95 PCjr Power Supply Card (heavy duty) #78729 $69.95 64K Memory & Display Expansion #78709 $50 Cartridge BASIC #78722 $119 Configuration Plus Cartridge #18026 $29.95 Allows for using BASIC/BASICA if you don't have Cartridge BASIC Compatibility Cartridge #18032 $39.95 Allows for running "modern" DOS apps that normally have problems with the PCjr BIOS Combo Cartridge V3.0 #18034 $89.95 Combination of four different cartridges (available separatly): Compatibility, Quicksilver (memory speedup), Keyboard Buffer, jrVideo (video speedup). jrExcellerator Speed-up Board #14802 $99 Megaboard Sidecard #14031 $199 Adds 1MB to anything else you already have. Load High Sidecar #97509 $35 Brings 640K system to 736K There's a lot more (drives, video, etc.). Also info and memory expansion for Rapport, Racore, and Quadram users. This catalogue is from 1995 and no doubt they don't have everything anymore (if their lack of Tandy parts is any indication). PC Enterprises is the reason I have EMS and SCSI on my Tandy 1000 HX but most of the stuff they used to have is no more. 1-800-922-7257 or 908-280-0025. Getting help is also a problem. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org IRC Nick: Senshi Channel: #dos #IrcHelp http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html -- DOS Internet Tools From gram at cnct.com Mon Jun 23 22:05:45 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <33AF2763.5CC8@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > standard cga monitor into the back. if anyone's interested, i could post the > > pinouts of the dongle so you can use cga. the last hamfest i went to have > As I recall, the PC Jr. does not use CGA but rather EGA. Something in > the back of my mind says that the REAL PC Jr. monitor is not quite EGA > but definetely better than CGA. The PCjr hooked up to a regular CGA monitor, it just used it better than a regular PC CGA adapter did. It had some extra modes that gave better resolution or more color (one or the other, not both). The Tandy 1000 series also had these enhancements, plus had the added sound capability (and BASIC play commands) of the PCjr. Unfortunately, the Tandy 1000 early models hardwired a foolishly incompatible IRQ for the hard drive. Well, it _was_ even with that easier and cheaper to expand than the PCjr. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jun 23 22:06:44 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: Collecting old microprocessors (as opposed to Computers) Message-ID: <01IKFCBOYLKY9X41TX@cc.usu.edu> > The reason I liked the 7000 so much was the display. It used a - I want > to say NEC 7202 display chip - might be wrong tho. It allowed vector > graphics and text to share the same screen. You could tell it how much > text and then anything above that was graphics. It took basically plotting > commands to do the graphics. Never did understand why that didn't catch > on! That would be the NEC 7220. It was also used in the DEC Rainbow graphics option; I've not seen a DECmate II graphices option, but I suspect it was used there as well. A friend of mine built a video card for an Apple ][ using the 7220. We could do 1024 x 780, IIRC. He was experimenting with it and a touch screen device (a flat glas plate to go over the monitor with transducers along two edges; it put a high-frequency vibration on the glass then listened for echoes) as a programmable user interface. We were using Microsoft F80 on the Softcard connected to 8" DSDD diskettes. When does it start being an Apple ][ and start being a CP/M machine? Oh yeah; we used a plotting library from a company called Tesseract. Anyone else used it? Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jun 23 22:08:11 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:35 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Message-ID: <01IKFCGX0K609X41TX@cc.usu.edu> > -spc (Although with proper programming, the CGA could support 160x100 > 16 colors (or was it 160x200?)) 160x100. You program the 6845 to display two scanlines per character then use the half-on/half-off blocks to control the pixels. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jun 23 22:36:19 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Osborne In-Reply-To: References: <24B2F4A36CCE@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <26ED0A917CEF@ifrsys.com> Hi Guys: I have just aquired an Orborne-I, built on 10/17/82. The thing seems to be complete, but no line cord. Cosmetically, she's in fair shape, but been around the block a few times: scuffs, velcro stuck to the case, etc. The only major thing wrong is that one of those cheesy plastic latches that holds the cover / keyboard in place is broken off. I fired her up, but without a boot disk, I could not tell if it is 100% functional or not. The sign on screen comes up on the WHITE crt, informs me that it has firmware ver 1.44, and requests I hit RETURN to boot up. Since I mostly specialize in SS-50 and some obscure Commodore-related hardware, this is a bit outside my scope of interest (but I know a true classic when I see one). If anyone is interested in this truly historic (if a bit worn) piece of cyberbilia, please contact me via e-mail. All I'm asking for it is what I paid for it (about $10) plus shipping. Thanks. Jeff jeff.kaneko@ifrsys.com From william at ans.net Mon Jun 23 22:33:30 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Historical Research In-Reply-To: <33AF34FA.91C@rain.org> Message-ID: <199706240333.AA09031@interlock.ans.net> > One of the things *I* think would be really useful for collectors is to > know the number of computers manufactured, both total and by year. The > only problem is in getting this information; anyone have any ideas, > insights, or better yet, connections to past people who would know or be > able to get this information from companies that have ceased business? I run into all sorts of computer "old timers" at hamfests, and some do have good stories to tell. That is probably the best way to get information, as the original sources are most likely gone (even if the parent companies still exist). This problem is not unique to computers - those who study radio and radar technology run into the same problems. Serial numbers DO lie, but they are often the only clues left. One source of serial numbers (other than those on the machines) is maintenance documents - especially those concerning ECOs. Often they have notes to the techinicians concerning which machines (by ranges of serials) get the treatments. I did get a good book from an NYC sidewalk vendor the other day - *Innovating for Failure, Government Policy and the Early British Computer Industry* by John Hendry. Somewhere he managed to dig up all sorts of information concerning British and U.S. mainframes in the 1960s, including a census (yes, I know all of the micro lovers on the list are just DYING to know how many IBM 360/30s were around in 1966!). Unfortuneately, he does not give a source. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dynasoar at mindspring.com Tue Jun 24 17:36:22 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (dynasoar) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All this talk about the PCJr is really inspiring....I want to get mine out of the closet and fire it up! Could someone post a schematic of the power supply kludge with the 17v. center-tapped transformer? Also how would I go about replacing the plug in daughtercard memory board, which was trashed when I got the machine? Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From marvin at rain.org Mon Jun 23 23:40:26 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Historical Research References: <199706240333.AA09031@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <33AF4FBA.5F10@rain.org> William Donzelli wrote: > > > One of the things *I* think would be really useful for collectors is to > > know the number of computers manufactured, both total and by year. The > > only problem is in getting this information; anyone have any ideas, > > Serial numbers DO lie, but they are often the only clues left. One source > of serial numbers (other than those on the machines) is maintenance > documents - especially those concerning ECOs. Often they have notes to > the techinicians concerning which machines (by ranges of serials) get the > treatments. > I guess another thing that would be useful would be the initial starting point of the serial numbers for each computer. I find by looking at the date code on the ICs, I can get *some* idea of when a machine was actually built. Of course, that assumes that the chips were used shortly after they were made, and I generally look at a variety of chips to find the latest date code. I hadn't thought of ECO's; that sounds like a good idea. Thanks! From maynard at jmg.com Mon Jun 23 23:42:34 1997 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > [snip] > > > > How do I go about cleaning this without destroying the case? Does > > anyone know of some good solvents or cleaners for plastic? > > Get yourself a stiff-bristled plastic brush and a good cleaner like > perhaps Formula 405. Again, I use an organic cleaner called L.O.C. (an > Amway product). Flood the case with the cleaner and brush it with the > brush. It may not take off all the goop, but it will do a good job > (depending on your cleaner, mine works fantastic). > My girlfriend is a professional sculptress, I don't know why I didn't ask her to begin with. She recommended plain amonia, which I was sceptical of. I wanted to use Formula 405 basically because you had recommended it. Well, the amonia worked great and the case looks nearly brand new - it sure took several hours though. ;-) Never doubt a woman competent with Dremel tools - for many reasons.... > > Can I pull a keytop off the keyboard without destroying the key? > > If it's really bad I guess I could change keyboards - but I'd really like > > to attempt to get this guy working, as it was the original. > > Spray your cleaner on the keyboard and scrub with the brush. It'll work > very well. When you're done, lift each key off (yes you can, they come > right off and you pop them right back on) and clean each individual one > around the sides as needed, but the brushing should have done the trick. > Clean all the hair, fuzzballs, food and other misceallny from the bottom > of the keys. Replace all the keycaps. Of course rememberto note down > where they all go. I was able to clean between the keys with a few tiny paint brushes. However, as nice as it looks, it seams as though it's toast. A few keys stick, several send multiple key bursts, and it doesn't seem as though the keys are removeable - at least not like as I remember the old TRS-80 Model 1 keyboard. You could remove the keys and actually clean the contacts with alchohol. Is this possible, or am I just going to be able to get dust bunnies between the keys? [snip] Thanks for your insight! J. Maynard Gelinas From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jun 23 20:09:32 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Banning Culture (was: Re: Why?) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970623181342.3d0f68d8@mail.crl.com> At 07:59 PM 6/21/97 +0000, you wrote: >Is "culture" banned from this site then? (We are getting there in the >end....it's a CULTURE clash, is it?) Yes! No more culture! Only trashy romance novels, Beverly Hills 90210/Melrose Place, and the Bee-Gees should be discussed here! And that's Culture *Club*! (Seequa, seequa, seequa, seequa, seequa, seequa chameleooooon...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 19:04:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706231610.LAA14021@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Bill Girnius wrote: > Picked up one of these the other day, no power supply, anyone know what > this monster needs for the 3 pin powersupply connection? {pinouts} There's been a huge boring discussion going on forever on the list. I know of about 2 or 3 of these sitting in thrift shops right now. Send me e-mail and I'll go pick one up for you, and you can just reimburse me for the cost+shipping. Same goes for ayone else interested. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon Jun 23 23:50:54 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Computer Ind. Books References: <199706230702.AAA17867@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33AF522E.23F3@goldrush.com> >From: "e.tedeschi" >Subject: bibliography >What do you think of this bibliography? Have I missed any important book >on the subject? Please help me in making this a useful refence for >everybody to use, if you care. Thank you There was also one by COMPUTE! Books, the (Small?) Computer Wars I think the author's name is Michael Tomzyk. I have yet to find it (or many that you mentioned) Though I found Steven Levy's Hackers very entertaining! One interesting book my wife came across in a thrift store is: "The Compleat Computer" a compilation edited by Dennie Van Tassel. It was printed in 1976 and has alot of press clippings, cartoons, articles and anecdotes of the then blossoming microcomputer age. One nice bit is the transcript of the session between Eliza (the psychiatrist program) and Parry (the paranoid program). Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Tue Jun 24 00:04:31 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 92 References: <199706230702.AAA17867@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33AF555F.6F82@goldrush.com> Subject: Re: Classsic Computing Newsgroup revisited Message-ID: <199706222028.4491@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> >> I'm against new newsgroups being created, especially when the topics >> are quite technical and already well-handled by existing newsgroups. >> For example, people wanting Apple II help can go to comp.sys.apple2, >> users of various CP/M systems hang around comp.os.cpm, PDP-11 >> users have vmsnet.pdp-11, etc. >Agreed. Off-hand I can't think of a single classic computer which is not >covered by at least one existing newsgroup. If you don't know which group >to post to, you'll find that most of them are quite friendly to >just-off-topic questions. If you find an obscure Z80 machine that didn't >ever run CP/M, I'm quite sure that a post to comp.os.cpm would get either >some help or a pointer to the appropriate newsgroup. I'd be _very_ >supprised if it got a flame. Let's get this straight: A) alt.technology.obsolete does not need to be created, it has been on the net for at least as long as I have (6+ months) B) The newsgroup is currently dead (except for the occasional spamming post.) C) having specific newsgroups is ok, but what if you want the open discussion of computers like we have here? I kinda get irked seeing Spectrum posts in comp.sys.cbm. But wouldn't mind on a mixed group, because I am in that mode when I am reading it. (sound logical?) So, again, the newsgroup (alt.technology.obsolete) exists now and has been in existence for quite a while and I suggest we put this good opportunity (and name) to use. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Tue Jun 24 00:53:54 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Commodore P-500 References: <199706230702.AAA17867@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33AF60F2.387F@goldrush.com> >From: steve >Subject: Re: PET > Hi you lot, glad the group is in a positive mood!!! > Ok can you help ? a few months ago I found a Commodore P500 seriel NO. WG00837 ????? Well if you collect Commodres, you are a very fortunate person! > What the heck is it???? > Its made in W.Germany > Any Idea?? > Steve All I can do is give you the U.S. perspective on this machine, since I haven't heard any stories on the European distribution of P-500s. A few years back I picked up one (P-500) as well, with people telling me it was a B-128, I didn't look at the back and was surely perplexed when I needed to hook it to my 1702 and it came up in 40 column color when I turned it on, so I did some research and asked around a few places (on Q-Link, and a query to the Chicago B-128 users group). I received two or three stories that were pretty much the same. Back in 1982 Commodore re-vamped it's entire product line in order to replace the aging PETs and to eventually phase out the then looking more limited VIC-20. The line consisted of the Commodore 64 and Ulitmax, for games/home/education use and the B-128 and P-500 for education/business and as an upgrade option for people who purchased alot of PET (IEEE-488) equipment. In its rush (given the home computer wars), Commodore sent a bunch of demo units of the B-128 and P-500 to dealers (yeah, I know that sounds strange, it was a different Commodore back then) these units were not to be sold as they still needed to get their FCC certification (for low radio interference). Well some of these dealers were offered quick cash for the demo units (even though they had no manuals or anything) and of course, they jumped at the chance. The FCC heard about these sales of uncertified equipment and told Commodore to immediately cease any sales of them and face stiff penalties. Commodore promptly recalled them (at least the ones they could get). Well they finally certified the B-128 but I guess being that the Commodore 64 was so popular they abandoned the P-500 entirely and it is said they destroyed all reamining P-500s. At the time I talked to the CB128UG (1990?) they said I was the third person in the world ever to report having one, and their estimation was that there are ten in existence. (they would have known since they were lent ALL documantation on the B-128 series from Commodore when they gave up that B-series computers). Ok the P-500 has a 6502 type processor (you know, like the 64) and 128k of RAM, it has a SID sound chip (also on the 64 and B-128), a true RS-232 port, cartridge port (I know of no carts avalable for the B series) and IEEE-488 port. But unlike the B-128 it sports a 40 column VIC-II chip, two joystick ports and ROM coding that supports the datasette drive (the B-128 also has a connector but no programming to use it). Both computers could accept an optional 8088 co-processor board and make it capapble of running CP/M 86. The RS-232 port has one pin designated (on both B-128 &P-500) for a high-speed networking system that never went into development (but was put in hardware, just in case) the guy from CB128UG was pretty impressed with the stats on it which I forgot. So to sum it up, the P-500 is essentially the Color PET or P-128 that Commodore had talked about. Kinda a cross between the SuperPET/B-128 (128k, IEEE-488, true RS-232, Co-Processor), and a 64 (SID, VIC-II, Joysticks, color). Jim Butterfield made a memory map for the B-128 and has some programming examples for the B-128 in Transactor issues which might get you some information, but there are differences. My unit has a RAM problem and I haven't been able to explore it too much, also the ROMs are pretty much porototype and it runs like molassas, so I dunno how much good that would do me when I eventually fix it... If you do find out ANYTHING more (or even have a manual on it) I would surely be interested in what you find out! Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Tue Jun 24 01:42:57 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Larry's List References: <199706230702.AAA17867@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33AF6C72.28A4@goldrush.com> Well after getting my Educator 64 working (yipee!) and realizing I have alot of the Commodores I kinda wanted to collect from years back I decided to write out a quick list (a>this is from memory so there probably is stuff missing and b>it in no way shows how many repeats of items I have (like 3 VIC-20s, umpteen datasettes, etc.) c>I have NO interested in selling any of it.) Hope you find it interesting. (=)) Larry's Commodore Collection: Calculators: Minuteman 6 Minuteman 6x Custom Greenline Rechargable (greenline?) Model 784D PET Series Original PET with original ROMs and 32k ExpandaPET board PET 2001 Series w/Upgrade ROMs 32k PET 2001 Series w/4.0 ROMS & MTU VM Graphics Board CBM 2001 Series 32k PET 4000 Series w/32k CBM 8032 SuperPET Model SP9000 PET/IEEE-488 Peripherals/Firmware RAM/ROM EPROM emulator Centronics Printer Interface 4040 Dual Disk Drive 2031LP Single Disk Drive 8023 Wide Carriage Dot-Matrix Printer Original 'modified' Sanyo cassete deck C2N Datasette in black case C2N Datasette in cream case w/counter Toolkit ROMs (upgrade and 4.0 versions) VIC-20 Series VIC-20 (DIN power Supply) VIC-20 Peripherals/Firmware Commodore Joystick Commodore Paddle Controllers Commodore C2N/1530 low-profile datasettes Commodore VIC-1541 Single Disk Drive Cardco Cartridge expansion unit Koala Pad MSD 24k RAM cartridge Commodore 8k RAM cartridge Commodore 3k+SuperExpander Cartridge HES HESMON utility cartridge Omega Race Tooth Invaders Defender Choplifter Radar Ratrace Donkey Kong Cosmic Cruncher C64/B-128 Series Commodore 64 (8-Pin Video) Commodore 64 w/stereo SID modification Commodore SX-64 portable Commodore P-500 Educator 64 (Commodore 64 in PET/CBM 4000/8000 style case) 64/B-128 Series Peripherals/Firmware Commodore 1702 Color Monitor Commodore 1541 Disk Drive Star Micronis NX1000C Dot Matrix Printer Citizen iDP560CD 2 3/4" wide Dot Matrix Printer Kinney Video Digitizer Alien Group Alien Voicebox Voice Synthesiser Currah Technologies Voicemaster 64 Wico Trackball controller Total Telecommunications 300 Baud Modem Inkwell Tech. Lightpen Lemans Jumpman Jr. SuperGraphics Jr. HESMon 64 Gridrunner Astroblitz Commodore 264 series: Commodore 16 Commodore Plus/4 Commodore Plus/4 w/standard 64 PS connector 264 Peripherals/Firmware Atari style joystick adapter Datasette plug adapter +4/16 joystick Jack Attack Plus Calc Plus Script Commodore 128/128D series Commodore 64C Commodore 128 Commodore 128D (missing keyboard) Commodore 128 Series Peripherals Commodore 1670 1200 Baud Modem Commodore Modem 300 - 300 Baud Modem Commodore 1902 Color Monitor Commodore 1541C Disk Drive Commodore 1541-II Disk Drive Commodore 1571 Disk Drive Commodore 1581 3.5" Micro Floppy Disk Drive Commodore 1764 RAM Expansion Unit Commodore 1351 Mouse CMD RAMLink Ram Expansion Unit CMD HD series Hard Drive Unit Aprotek 2400 Baud Modem SuperSnapshot 5 Utility Cartridge Lotsa Joysticks... ;) Still Looking for: 8050 Dual Disk Drive 8250 Dual Disk Drive SFD-1001 Single Floppy Drive 8010 Modem (acoustic coupler) 4010 Voice Response Unit (speech synthesiser) CBM 9060/9090 Hard Disk Unit B-128/B-256 Series Computer Computereyes for Commodore 64 Commodore comaptible EPROM programmer Commodore 65 Commodore LCD (I wish!) Serial<->IEEE-488 interfaces -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jun 24 00:46:39 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <9705238670.AA867090681@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970623224639.00d828a8@agora.rdrop.com> At 11:23 AM 6/23/97 BST, you wrote: >I have an IBM System/23 (aka Datamaster) at home. It has system board, >mono monitor, twin 8-inch floppies and PC-style keyboard in one box, and >a printer hung off the back. It has an 8085 processor, 64k RAM and 112K >ROM. The expansion slots are suspiciously IBM PC like... > < snip > > >Anyone else out there have one of these? Know any more about it? Well, I've got one with a pretty complete (at first glance) set of manuals and software, but I've not had a great deal of time to work with it as yet. Is there something particular you wanted to know that I might be able to (briefly) look up? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jun 24 01:51:56 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Banning Culture (was: Re: Why?) References: <1.5.4.16.19970623181342.3d0f68d8@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: <33AF6E8C.3ED3@ndirect.co.uk> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 07:59 PM 6/21/97 +0000, you wrote: > >Is "culture" banned from this site then? (We are getting there in the > >end....it's a CULTURE clash, is it?) > > Yes! No more culture! Only trashy romance novels, Beverly Hills > 90210/Melrose Place, and the Bee-Gees should be discussed here! And that's > Culture *Club*! (Seequa, seequa, seequa, seequa, seequa, seequa > chameleooooon...) > This *is* culture! Trash culture but *still* culture. enrico From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jun 24 02:16:20 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <33AF7444.7B1F@ndirect.co.uk> Dear Friends, There is no desire from my part to start another flame war (but a discussion, yes) but in answer to the many that have expressed (here or privately) their total disinterest for the *meaning* the *history* and the *culture* behind our collections may I ask them to consider what their machines would mean without somebody behind (or rather in front) of them. Machines are just pieces of metal and plastic. They mean something because they are related to the minds, fingers, emotions, life, behaviours and destinies of the people behind them. YOU love so much that piece of hadware for what it meant to you (or to somebody else you are related with), to your life, to your history of for it meant to the history of mankind. So I am asking *you*, lover of the hardware to reconsider your thoughts and ask yourself what would your collection mean without all of the above. I, for one, will be glad to learn that you had second toughts about this. In either cases it could be useful to read here your motivations. Thanks -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 24 02:15:24 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Commodore P-500 In-Reply-To: <33AF60F2.387F@goldrush.com> References: <199706230702.AAA17867@lists2.u.washington.edu> <33AF60F2.387F@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <33af724a.922444@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:53:54 -0800, you wrote: %All I can do is give you the U.S. perspective on this machine, since I %haven't heard any stories on the European distribution of P-500s. I've seen described in French computer magazines (e.g. Microsystems in their banc d'essais) a number of post-PET computers. The P500 was one of them. There was also a P700. This was circa 1984-85. If memory serves, they are like the original PETs except for a more aerodynamic casing and much better internal circuitry and also built-in floppy drives. I think there was even one version with an 8088 for youknowwhat compatibility. I went to an electronics component shop in Lyon once and they used one such machine for inventory/receipt/payment control. Everything ran on the two floppy drives. The problem with these machines, I think, was that they were essentially 6502-based business machines and lost out to the IBM PC's 8/16-bit architecture. Ben From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 24 08:47:38 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: SMPS's (was PC-jr) In-Reply-To: <199706232120.RAA05621@mail.cgocable.net>; from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jun 23, 97 5:20 pm Message-ID: <199706240747.21429@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> [Zenith Monitor] > Using LED as a reference? That is poor idea to do that! It should > have put the sense line on that heavy current line to work. I think you misunderstood me. It does sample the output of the PSU. But it compares it to the 2V-ish across the power-on LED rather than using a zener or something similar. [Boschert 2-stage] > > 1) Rectify/double the AC mains input to give 340V DC > > 2) Feed that into a non-isolated 'flyback' converter to step it down to > > 150V. > hi frenquency ac or dc at that point? DC. It's smoothed by a smallish capacitor. [...] > > 1) The chopper (2) shorts. The output of that stage now leaps to 340V > > (since there's a DC path through the shorted transistor and the inductor) > > Ah! Not a transformer just a giant inductor driven by that chopper? Absolutely... > :) that would be a biggest OUCHIE! Why not jerryjig a design to > clamp down based on voltage level when exceeding 150v at this point > when chopper went so it will blow the fuse instead? I'm not sure you could. The voltage at that point rises as the PSU is loaded (to compensate for losses in the transformer and oscillator). I suspect the crowbar would still kill the oscillator transistors and cause a lot of other damage before the overvoltage trip did a darn thing. > > > 2) The oscillator (3) continues running, so the 5V line leaps to about 12V > > 3) The crowbar trips, shorting the output to ground > > 4) The overcurrent trip tries to work, but as the chopper (2) is shorted, > > it doesn't do a darn thing. > > Other option, Why not use this output of this crowbar to trip other > clamper at the 340vdc output to blow the fuse instantly? > You want to blow the fuse first before the last 2 trans dies > resulting in expensive heap of smelly stuff. :) That would have meant an extra optoisolator at least. And would you trust a thyristor to short a 340V line at essentially unlimited current? > Jason D. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 24 08:53:43 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <33AF2763.5CC8@rain.org>; from "Marvin" at Jun 23, 97 6:48 pm Message-ID: <199706240753.21570@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > As I recall, the PC Jr. does not use CGA but rather EGA. Something in > the back of my mind says that the REAL PC Jr. monitor is not quite EGA > but definetely better than CGA. It's enhanced CGA. The IBM monitor _was_ the 5153 CGA monitor with an adapter cable (or at least it was when my Techref was printed - it gives the wirelist of the adapter and the schematics of the 5153). The video circuitry in the PC-jr can output a few more modes that a CGA card can't (320*200 in 16 colours, etc), but the monitor is a normal CGA one. > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 24 08:55:57 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <199706240213.AA06607@interlock.ans.net>; from "William Donzelli" at Jun 23, 97 10:13 pm Message-ID: <199706240755.21706@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Signetic (I think it was them) had some PAL like devices back in the > mid-1970s. I do not think they were as flexible as PALs, but they did > combine the best of the PROM and glue worlds for decoding schemes. Ah yes. The 82S100 and related devices. They were less flexible than later PALs in that there were no flip-flops on the outputs and no internal feedback terms, but were more flexible in that you could program both the AND matrix (like a PAL) and the OR matrix (to decide how many (and which) product terms to use for each output). > William Donzelli -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 24 09:01:41 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: ; from "dynasoar" at Jun 24, 97 5:36 pm Message-ID: <199706240801.21775@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Could someone post a schematic of the power supply kludge with the 17v. > center-tapped transformer? Also how would I go about replacing the plug in I posted it last night. If you've not got it I'll e-mail it to you privately. > daughtercard memory board, which was trashed when I got the machine? The machine will run without that memory card - there's 64K on the system board, and the memory card is another 64K bringing the total to 128K It contains only standard devices (64K*1 DRAMs and some TTL chips) so in theory you could make one from the schematics in the Techref. You might find one somewhere, though. > Kirk Scott -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 24 09:06:30 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 23, 97 5:04 pm Message-ID: <199706240806.21804@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> [PC-jr PSU] > There's been a huge boring discussion going on forever on the list. I Err, I thought that repair and restoration questions were welcome here. If not, then I appolgise and will unsubscribe. What I find _extremely_ boring are the lists of machines/bits that people have just bought from the garage sale/thrift store/wherever. Such messages seem to be simply 'Oh how lucky I am' type things. PC-jr's are not common over here. I've only ever seen one - the one I bought. The transformer bricks are equally rare and shipping one from the States would cost a lot more than making one from new parts. And there will come a time when there are no more working transformer bricks and you'll need to make your own, in which case having measurements taken from one that was working will be rather useful info. > > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 24 02:42:17 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Apple II hardware design In-Reply-To: <199706232051.15624@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > Depends on your forte. Mine happens to be software. I'll bet I can > > write the software faster than you can solder the board. HOWEVER, I'll > > I wouldn't bet on it.... I've been known to go from idea to working > prototype in < 1 day. You even bother with ideas? I don't even know what I'm going to write when I sit down at the computer. I just start typing and the program practically writes itself. This happens < 1 minute! Beat that with your silly soldering iron! :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 24 02:47:33 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Historical Research In-Reply-To: <33AF4FBA.5F10@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > I guess another thing that would be useful would be the initial starting > point of the serial numbers for each computer. I find by looking at the > date code on the ICs, I can get *some* idea of when a machine was > actually built. Of course, that assumes that the chips were used > shortly after they were made, and I generally look at a variety of chips > to find the latest date code. I hadn't thought of ECO's; that sounds > like a good idea. Thanks! I've found that some serial numbers will start with 100... instead of, say, just 1. So the first will end up being 1000001. Another example is the Apple ][ which started with 2001. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Jun 24 09:25:10 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <33AF7444.7B1F@ndirect.co.uk>; from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 24, 97 7:16 am Message-ID: <199706240825.21942@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Dear Friends, > > There is no desire from my part to start another flame war (but a > discussion, yes) but in answer to the many that have expressed (here or > privately) their total disinterest for the *meaning* the *history* and > the *culture* behind our collections may I ask them to consider what > their machines would mean without somebody behind (or rather in front) > of them. Machines are just pieces of metal and plastic. They mean > something because they are related to the minds, fingers, emotions, > life, behaviours and destinies of the people behind them. YOU love so > much that piece of hadware for what it meant to you (or to somebody else > you are related with), to your life, to your history of for it meant to > the history of mankind. I think you've found the root of the Apple ][ debate here... To me, some classic computers have a personality. The experience of booting a PERQ 1 - particularly a PERQ 1 I'd just restored - is something I'll never forget. The click as the power relay pulled in. The noise of the fans. The squeal from the hard disk belt as the platters got up to speed. The counting up of the DDS. And then the screen clearing, and a logon prompt appearing. You don't get that with modern computers. I've never really thought about the people behind it, except in a very general way. If the machine had 'come from another planet' I'd still like it. I'd still be interested in it for what it can do - it's a fine piece of machinery that can do some things that you can't do on any PC. People who are interested in the Apple ][ are interested (I suspect) because of its place in history. It was one of the first true personal computers. It got the micro revolution going. But that's not why _I_ collect computers. It would be interesting to see what enthusiasts of other machinery think. I am thinking of motor car enthusiasts in particular. Let's compare a Model T ford with a pre-war Rolls-Royce. The former is a very important car historically. It's the vehicle that (I believe) brought motoring to the average person in the States. But the latter contains much finer engineering. Which would most car collectors consider more valuable? Which would they prefer to run? > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 24 03:03:50 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <33AF7444.7B1F@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > Dear Friends, > > There is no desire from my part to start another flame war (but a > discussion, yes) but in answer to the many that have expressed (here or > privately) their total disinterest for the *meaning* the *history* and > the *culture* behind our collections may I ask them to consider what > their machines would mean without somebody behind (or rather in front) > of them. Machines are just pieces of metal and plastic. They mean > something because they are related to the minds, fingers, emotions, > life, behaviours and destinies of the people behind them. YOU love so > much that piece of hadware for what it meant to you (or to somebody else > you are related with), to your life, to your history of for it meant to > the history of mankind. > > So I am asking *you*, lover of the hardware to reconsider your thoughts > and ask yourself what would your collection mean without all of the > above. I, for one, will be glad to learn that you had second toughts > about this. In either cases it could be useful to read here your > motivations. Do you have a point to make in all this? Seriously, I've been following this from the beginning and I have yet to understand where this wild hair up your ass came from. Please, for the love of humanity, stop. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 24 02:34:09 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: nOn Tue, 24 Jun 1997, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > My girlfriend is a professional sculptress, I don't know why I > didn't ask her to begin with. She recommended plain amonia, which I was > sceptical of. I wanted to use Formula 405 basically because you had > recommended it. Well, the amonia worked great and the case looks nearly > brand new - it sure took several hours though. ;-) Never doubt a woman > competent with Dremel tools - for many reasons.... Yes, Windex works well too. > brushes. However, as nice as it looks, it seams as though it's toast. A > few keys stick, several send multiple key bursts, and it doesn't seem as > though the keys are removeable - at least not like as I remember the old > TRS-80 Model 1 keyboard. You could remove the keys and actually clean the > contacts with alchohol. Is this possible, or am I just going to be able > to get dust bunnies between the keys? Whatever you do, don't let any alcohol get down into the key mechanism. This happened to me on my //e keyboard once. No matter what I did, I couldn't dry it out! It was shorted. I finally had to solder it out. Since I needed an 'A' key, came up with all sorts of tricks to overcome the missing key. First I wrote a keyboard driver which would intercept TAB and translate it into 'A'. That worked OK, but it just didn't feel right, plus it only worked when I was in BASIAC. So I soldered two wires into the contact holes and pressed them together whenever I needed 'A'. I was too lazy to order a new A-key. After I got sick of that, I took one of my joysticks that I had previously busted apart in some tantrum of frustration and re-commissioned one of the buttons as an 'A' key. It was stiff but it worked and I went with this solution for a couple months until I finally got around to ordering a new key. When it came a few weeks (and five bucks!) later, it was for the new Apple //gs keyboard! IDIOTS! Now I had to wait all over again for the key. I sent the wrong one back, and apparently it got lost in the mail. So now I was out five bucks as well! I think I used the joystick button for another couple months until I finally got around to ordering the correct key. So let this be a lesson to you! Don't try cleaning any of the keys with alcohol. Perhaps you can disassemble it and run it through the dishwasher? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 23 23:57:01 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199706240856.EAA19589@mail.cgocable.net> Sam, > > > brushes. However, as nice as it looks, it seams as though it's toast. A > > few keys stick, several send multiple key bursts, and it doesn't seem as > > though the keys are removeable - at least not like as I remember the old > > TRS-80 Model 1 keyboard. You could remove the keys and actually clean the > > contacts with alchohol. Is this possible, or am I just going to be able > > to get dust bunnies between the keys? I did pull off the keycaps on that apple II if you use right type of pull that loops under both sides for even force and unsolder that switch, tear it down and clean it, then put back together. Lots of solderable keyswitches are "tear down"able after you clean up the solder lugs just in case. They're held together by snaps. Sam, Nip! Sad story about key problem... Can't you take that switch apart and clean it with alcohol? I had to do that on my "speedy". Generic keyboard but used good quality gold contacts switch in it only minor cleaning there then it worked 100% The one key tab needed pounding to get anything but now I just merely poke it. :) Total time of repair: 15 to 20 mins. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > Jason D. From mojaveg at ridgecrest.ca.us Mon Jun 23 19:55:47 1997 From: mojaveg at ridgecrest.ca.us (mojaveg@ridgecrest.ca.us) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: PLEASE READ - suggestions to reduce list traffic In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20546F307@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> (from Kai Kaltenbach ) Message-ID: <24a26b8f.c3512-mojaveg@annex127.ridgecrest.ca.us> Hi Kai, > I'd like to suggest that we all keep in mind the following tenets to > help reduce the amount of superfluous traffic on this discussion list: > > - If your reply is to one individual, please send directly to them > (you'll have to override your email program's default Reply address). > > - Please direct responses to solicitations such as group purchases, etc. > directly to the solicitor only. Amen, brother! I have received in excess of 200 mailings in the last 36 hours. There can't be that much to say to the world! I've tried three times since Friday to kill my subscription to this thing, but the best I got was a canned message saying I didn't unsubscribe properly. Successive attempts seem to have only stopped my own mailings from being echoed to me! Does anyone know the proper procedure to unsubscribe? From zmerch at northernway.net Tue Jun 24 07:54:06 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Yes, I shall burn in the fyres of Hades... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970624085406.009ab660@mail.northernway.net> Yes, I finally got the fever for the flavor of a Pringles -- Dooh! I mean, the fever to spark up my CP/M machine... despite everyone & their brother telling me to check the PSU first. Yea, Tar & feather me, and ride me out on a rail... but I saved the thing from Mr. Junkman, and it cost me $1.00 at an auction... Figured there wasn't much to lose. Here's what I have: It is *not* a Heath/Zenith machine.... It states simply on the front: Heathkit Computer. No nuthin' else. On the back, I found the Serial# and the number: H-120-1. I'm assuming this is the model number. It has two floppy drives (one of which the garage door is broken on) a full keyboard (which works fine, but is slightly sticky...) and an internal green 11" diag. mono monitor. Something tickled in my brain about those floppies, so as I lumbered around in the dark in my newly-begun clean-ish basement (Eeeeek!) I found my old non-working Atari 810 disk drive... and the mechs looked almost exact! Would these happen to be the same mechanically, would anyone know? Also, as there was no paperwork for this, so even the most basic, rudimentary info on this unit would be helpful... such as: which drive is the boot drive? Top or bottom? When I sparked it up, everything seemed to work, the tube came to life, and greeted me with a finger pointing to the right in the upper-left corner... and stayed there. Every key sequence I tried resulted in a "Beep" except which, of course, reset the machine and re-greeted me with the finger. Does anyone out there know what I have, and could you tell me? ;^> BTW, I (of course) would be in the market for a set of boot disks for this beastie... Thanks one and all, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jun 24 08:18:51 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <199706241318.AA26092@world.std.com> > So I am asking *you*, lover of the hardware to reconsider your thoughts > and ask yourself what would your collection mean without all of the > above. I, for one, will be glad to learn that you had second toughts > about this. In either cases it could be useful to read here your > motivations. Interesting comment. From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 24 09:50:12 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Historical Research References: Message-ID: <33AFDEA4.33BF@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > > > I guess another thing that would be useful would be the initial starting > > point of the serial numbers for each computer. I find by looking at the > > I've found that some serial numbers will start with 100... instead of, > say, just 1. So the first will end up being 1000001. Another example is > the Apple ][ which started with 2001. > I've seen that in a number of instances. If anyone knows the starting serial numbers for other computers, I would be interested! We have one now, that Apple II! From garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu Tue Jun 24 05:44:42 1997 From: garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu (Gary Katz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: AIM65 (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706241453.KAA02456@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu> If the AIM's aren't gone yet, I'd be interested in one. -gk > Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:08:01 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sam Ismail > Subject: Re: AIM65 (fwd) > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > X-To: Classic Computer Discussion ****************************************************** Gary S. Katz nth Year Graduate Student 626C Old Engineering Hall (412) 624-9347 Voice University of Pittsburgh (412) 624-5407 Fax Dept. of Psychology GARYKATZ@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU Pittsburgh, PA 15260 ****************************************************** From ghjorth at sn.no Tue Jun 24 14:11:10 1997 From: ghjorth at sn.no (Thomas Christopher Jarvis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 93 In-Reply-To: <199706240702.AAA02009@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Will someone please remove me from this list. Thank you. -- +------------------------------------+ ! Thomas Jarvis Bigshaker on IRC ! ! ghjorth@sn.no Y.C.D.B.S.O.Y.A. ! +------------------------------------+ It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. From transit at primenet.com Tue Jun 24 10:44:30 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Computer simulation of an organ (fwd) Message-ID: This is a message I sent to the Electronic Organ list today. They were discussing simulating a pipe organ with a computer. I looked at the Alphasyntauri in my collection, and thought "Been there, done that . . ." ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:40:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charles P. Hobbs" Cc: EORG-L@CFRVM.CFR.USF.EDU Subject: Computer simulation of an organ Anyone here heard of the AlphaSyntauri? This was an organ keyboard, connected to an Apple II computer. The Apple was equipped with sixteen 8-bit DACs (digital-analog converters). The DACs converted digital waveforms (sequences of numbers in the Apple's RAM) to analog, audio signals. The AlphaSyntauri could play up to eight notes simultaneously (2 DACs were normally assigned to each note). Tonalities could be easily selected via software. There were even Fourier-analysis tools allowing the users to make and manipulate their own waveforms. This instrument was popular in the early 80's, but died out before the age of MIDI. By that time, its output (8 bit DACs, relatively low sampling rate) had made the instrument obsolete for most serious musicians (I have one as a collector's item). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jrice at texoma.net Tue Jun 24 11:15:38 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Today's Scrounging Run Message-ID: <33AFF2AA.DBE4E850@texoma.net> Today's scrounging haul: TI99/4 Impact Printer, clean, working, new ribbon $ 1.00 Mac 20mb SCSI external hard drive $20.00 200 360k floppys, new in boxes of 10 $ 3.00 Mac ADB coil cord $ 1.00 Tandy CoCo/1000 delux joystick NIB $ 1.00 Passed up on a C64 with PSU $ 3.00, Amiga A500 NIB $ 25.00, C-128 $1.00 (looked a little well used), Apple 2e $ 5.00 with Disk II. From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jun 24 11:09:28 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic References: <199706240825.21942@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <33AFF138.201C@ndirect.co.uk> A.R. Duell wrote: > I've never really thought about the people behind it, except in a very > general way. If the machine had 'come from another planet' I'd still like > it. I'd still be interested in it for what it can do - it's a fine piece > of machinery that can do some things that you can't do on any PC. I see that I have managed to not to explain myself in such a way to be understood: Your lovely machines (whichever they are) live *only* because there someone (you or another human person) to make it work and appreciate the results. They *only* live in your (or somebody else's) mind. And that is why their history is important because it's not their history that we appreciate but the sentiments, feelings, joy and sadness of the people who used them! Hope this is clearer enrico ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jun 24 11:11:55 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic References: Message-ID: <33AFF1CB.3D12@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Do you have a point to make in all this? Seriously, I've been following > this from the beginning and I have yet to understand where this wild hair > up your ass came from. Please, for the love of humanity, stop. > > Sam I think that there is no need to get vulgar. If that is the general feeling I apologise and widthdraw my question. Sorry enrico From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 23 17:21:31 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Apple ]['s and C=64 video/ Bad Feelings... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > If not slow as hell. The worst part about the commodore 1541 drive is > that it had its own processor, and it was still slow. The bottleneck was > the serial interface. Commodore was lame not to use something faster > than, what was it, 19.2K? In contrast, the Apple Disk ][ could transfer > data at about a rate of 16K per second. I should clarify this: 19.2K _bps_ vs. 16K _bytes_. Thank you. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Tue Jun 24 14:26:54 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr (some parts info you y'all) In-Reply-To: <199706240258.TAA02092@covina.lightside.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970624152654.006be8b4@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> PC Enterprises is online: http://www.pcenterprises.com/index.shtml However the site is under construction, and I couldn't find a way to the prices for PCjr products. At 07:00 PM 6/23/97 PST8PDT, you wrote: >Anyway, assuming PC Enterprises still carries this stuff, you might want >to check with them. The catalogue also doubles as an information source >since they give a few paragraphs on various tech stuff. >For instance what happens when your system board malfunctions, etc. > >Here's some stuff from their PCjr catalogue that may >be of interest. There's a lot so this is just a few. [LIST CUT] >This catalogue is from 1995 and no doubt they don't have everything >anymore (if their lack of Tandy parts is any indication). >Marc James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jun 23 20:09:14 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Why? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970623181335.3d0f532c@mail.crl.com> At 06:43 PM 6/21/97 +0000, you wrote: >I accept that....but you are such a big country. Isn't it about time you >start looking outside and try to understand other cultures? (no offence But we are a country of other cultures. My father came over from Germany as a boy. My mother was of english descent (going back to Ann Boleyn and Katherine(?) Howard, two of Henry VIII's wives). My sister is an honorary Nigerian. My girlfriend is Russian, French Canadian, and who knows what else. Her sister-in-law is a philippina. Some of my best friends include jamaicans, scotsman, irish, french, german, native american, japanese, chinese, aussies, South African, eritrean, and so on. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jun 24 15:18:44 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Why? Message-ID: <199706242015.PAA15971@challenge.sunflower.com> Im gonna take a risk here, but do any of these folks collect computers, maybe the recent conversations havn't driven them nuts and they can give us some information about old computers rather than start some type of political hate crime debate. GROW UP EVERYONE. ---------- > From: Uncle Roger > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Why? > Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 8:09 PM > > At 06:43 PM 6/21/97 +0000, you wrote: > >I accept that....but you are such a big country. Isn't it about time you > >start looking outside and try to understand other cultures? (no offence > > But we are a country of other cultures. My father came over from Germany as > a boy. My mother was of english descent (going back to Ann Boleyn and > Katherine(?) Howard, two of Henry VIII's wives). My sister is an honorary > Nigerian. My girlfriend is Russian, French Canadian, and who knows what > else. Her sister-in-law is a philippina. Some of my best friends include > jamaicans, scotsman, irish, french, german, native american, japanese, > chinese, aussies, South African, eritrean, and so on. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jun 24 15:17:24 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Digilog 1500 Message-ID: <01IKGCBTPQQQA4LNYX@cc.usu.edu> >Roger Ivie wrote: >> >> No promises, but I _may_ have a CP/M boot disk for the thing and (depending >> on how recently my cow-orkers have cleaned their offices) I may be able to >> find a bit of technical info. >> > >Wow, that would be great! It would also be good to get enough >information to add it to the "Big List" that Bill maintains. In any >case, thanks for the info! OK, here's what I have found so far: - Technical manual for "Microterm II" (also labelled "Series 2000") - Technical manual for "Series 1000" - A few other manuals, including a BASIC language manual and something to do with 2780 communications. Both technical manuals contain schematics. I've not yet compared the schematics to see what the differences between "Series 1000" and "Series 2000" are. I've not yet come across boot disks, but I've been informed that we still have one of the machines in our storage shed, so I expect to find one when I get _really_ serious about poking around. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 24 12:42:56 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: Historical Research In-Reply-To: <33AF34FA.91C@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > One of the things *I* think would be really useful for collectors is to > know the number of computers manufactured, both total and by year. The > only problem is in getting this information; anyone have any ideas, > insights, or better yet, connections to past people who would know or be > able to get this information from companies that have ceased business? > Thanks. I would definitely like to know this information also. It does help in determine what a system is worth to you, since if you know how rare or unrare it is you can have a better idea of what to offer someone for it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 24 12:40:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:36 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! In-Reply-To: <199706240856.EAA19589@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > Nip! Sad story about key problem... > > Can't you take that switch apart and clean it with alcohol? I had to > do that on my "speedy". Generic keyboard but used good quality gold > contacts switch in it only minor cleaning there then it worked 100% > The one key tab needed pounding to get anything but now I just > merely poke it. :) Total time of repair: 15 to 20 mins. I don't think you can do that with apple keys. Once they're broke they're broke. I could be wrong about this. I've just never tried it. At the time, I don't think I would've had the dexterity necessary to fix the key. At the very least I didn't have the brain capacity to think about it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jun 24 15:30:58 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! Message-ID: <199706242027.PAA17344@challenge.sunflower.com> Once they are broke, they are broke, trust me on this, You can remove the keycaps, but the switch itself is sealed in one piece. ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: apple II - SCORE! > Date: Tuesday, June 24, 1997 12:40 PM > > On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > Nip! Sad story about key problem... > > > > Can't you take that switch apart and clean it with alcohol? I had to > > do that on my "speedy". Generic keyboard but used good quality gold > > contacts switch in it only minor cleaning there then it worked 100% > > The one key tab needed pounding to get anything but now I just > > merely poke it. :) Total time of repair: 15 to 20 mins. > > I don't think you can do that with apple keys. Once they're broke > they're broke. I could be wrong about this. I've just never tried it. > At the time, I don't think I would've had the dexterity necessary to fix > the key. At the very least I didn't have the brain capacity to think > about it. > > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 23 02:46:18 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: <199706240753.21570@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 24-Jun-97, A.R. Duell wrote: >The video circuitry in the PC-jr can output a few more modes that a CGA >card can't (320*200 in 16 colours, etc), but the monitor is a normal CGA >one. The PCjr is what Tandy used for the basis of thier video modes in the 1000 series machines. I believe they were even seen by software as the same thing, though I could be wrong about this one. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 24 15:37:51 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic References: <199706240825.21942@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> <33AFF138.201C@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33B0301F.35E5@rain.org> e.tedeschi wrote: > > Your lovely machines (whichever they are) live *only* because there > someone (you or another human person) to make it work and appreciate the > results. They *only* live in your (or somebody else's) mind. And that is > why their history is important because it's not their history that we > appreciate but the sentiments, feelings, joy and sadness of the people > who used them! > Oh oh, this sounds like emotions poping up :). I think you make a very valid point and phrased it very well. When I think about putting my machines on display, the fact that the machines are interesting is part of it of course, but the main thrust is how people will react to and think about the machines. When I see the early DEC equipment, it brings to mind the time I spent at the DEC school, the time I spent working with others teaching (and learning!) all about computers, and a host of other things. For me, I think the word is nostalgia (or however it's spelled.) From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 24 15:48:33 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: Help identify these front panels Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2054B51E0@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I just got a couple of unidentified front panels. If anyone can shed some light on what computers these come from, please let me know! Front Panel #1: - No bezel - Has flat switches exactly like the Imsai except they're all black - In the upper right there's a 16-key hexadecimal keypad; black keys with white lettering. - Two rows of switches; 7 in the upper left, and a row of 18 below. - There are numerous LEDs arranged mostly in banks of 4 with 7545 TTL drivers. - The LEDs are on a riser card about 1/2" off the main front panel card. The main card is dark gray and the LED card is green. - Three 40-pin ribbon cable connectors on the bottom edge. Front Panel #2: - Very simple design with metal bezel. Looks like it's from a mini. - 20 cup-shaped plastic paddle switches, some navy blue, some sky blue in color. - Switches are labeled "CLR, STP, MRD, MWR, ADR, EXE" and numbers 2 through 15. - Three lights in the upper left are labeled "POWER, WAIT, CARRY, ENABLE" - There's a key lock in the lower right - A bundle of cables trail from the panel terminating in two 46-pin connectors and a few power leads. - An ink stamp on the PCB reads "5172" - 5/1/72 perhaps? thanks all! By the way, if someone needs one of these, let me know! Kai From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 24 15:56:15 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: Computer Documentation References: <01IKGCBTPQQQA4LNYX@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <33B0346F.3FFC@rain.org> One of the things *I* like to have available is the documentation, particularly schematics, on the things that I have. As such, there are docs and schematics on quite a bit of stuff here but there are also a lot of holes. I'm not sure how the copyright laws apply to machines where the company has ceased to exist, but it would be great to be able to exchange documentation as needed. Things I have machine schematics on include: Commodore CBM machines Polymorphic Computers Lobo Drives Altair Atari 400/800 Corona 400 DEC 16, 11/05, 11/45, 8i IBM PC, AT Imsai Northstar Horizon Vector I, II, III, and 4 Zeneth/Heath computers CompuPro Various S-100 boards and a host of others that I can't remember off the top of my head. Things I would like to get include the Altos, Commodore Pet, Sol, Zeneth H-67 Hard/Floppy disk unit, Compaq Deskpro and luggable, and a bunch of others. Also, what about copies of the ROMs? I have a Zenith lugable that is missing the System Roms and as such, have no way to even see if it works. Anyone else with this type of problem? From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 24 16:01:43 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: IC Date Codes References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2054B51E0@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33B035B7.3C0@rain.org> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > I just got a couple of unidentified front panels. If anyone can shed > some light on what computers these come from, please let me know! > > - An ink stamp on the PCB reads "5172" - 5/1/72 perhaps? > Speaking of date codes, most (if not all) ICs that have a date code are a combination of the week and year so that "5172" would be the 51st week in 1972. Knowing that makes it a lot easier to approximate when the board was made. From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Tue Jun 24 16:31:12 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: C=1570 Drive (was Re:C64 CP/M carts) Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970624223112.006e2dd0@post.keme.co.uk> At 21:44 20/06/97 +0100, we wrote: >> >>>Besides, I was talking about CP/M for the Commodore 1541 drive. That's a >>>multi-speed drive that uses GCR encoding, not MFM. Try writing THAT with >>>22DISK on your PC-clone. >>>I used to know that only C=1570 and C=1571 were capable to read and write >>CP/M disks in a proper way. (GCR+MFM) >>By the way anyone else apart me owning a C=1570 here? >> >>Ciao >> >>i own a 1570, its a american one with a step down transformer, Its >connected to my PC, and guess what, it writes CPM!!! >Steve >Emulator BBS >01284 760851 >Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE Hi Steve, Yours was the only one response I get (since now) from C=1570 owners Mine was made in Germany (did you buy it in the U.S.?) Ciao Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jun 24 16:35:09 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: Why? In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970623181335.3d0f532c@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: This thread is over. Do not respond to it again. If you wish to continue this discussion do so by private e-mail. I don't want to be a jerk about this but I made it pretty clear yesterday that this is off-topic. If you wish to take issue with this contact me privately. ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jun 24 13:38:55 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: A very nice evening Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2054A979B@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Last night, a saintly gentleman was kind enough to present me with several wonderful pieces of equipment and parts, including: - IBM 5100 with a box of tapes! - KIM-1 in original box(!) w/documentation, etc. - Altos 5000 series Z80A with built-in dual 8" (might give this away if u-pick-up) - Tandy 200 portable with docs & carrying case Plus a bunch of useful parts: - Two SoftStrip readers in original boxes w/docs, etc. - Three Shugart SA800 8" bare drives - Two 5 1/4" bare drives - Several PET motherboards and video power supplies (I'm giving these away if u-pick-up!) - Altos terminal (this goes with the Altos if someone picks up) - IBM 5103 printer (companion printer to the 5100 PC) - 4 slightly broken Tandy 200 portables (I'm giving these away if u-pick-up!) - Two unidentified front panels (look for mail on these) - A CardBoard expansion bus (for the KIM, I think) - PET dealer service manual stuffed with schematics, updates and diagnostic program cassette tapes - PET 80-column video/graphics board upgrade w/docs and box Kai From spc at armigeron.com Tue Jun 24 17:32:46 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Jun 23, 97 12:46:18 pm Message-ID: <199706242232.SAA22299@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Jeff Hellige once stated: > > On 24-Jun-97, A.R. Duell wrote: > > >The video circuitry in the PC-jr can output a few more modes that a CGA > >card can't (320*200 in 16 colours, etc), but the monitor is a normal CGA > >one. > > The PCjr is what Tandy used for the basis of thier video modes in the 1000 > series machines. I believe they were even seen by software as the same thing, > though I could be wrong about this one. For the normal CGA modes, yes. But for the 320x200x16 and 640x200x4 no. For some reason, when in those modes, they did not appear at the standard CGA address in the IBM PCjr, which made programming for those modes on the PCjr real fun (gotta love the way MS-DOS can't deal with non-contiguous memory). In the PCjr, the video memory could reside anywhere in the first 128K of RAM, but there was circuitry to echo that to the standard CGA addresses. And due to the video memory sharing main memory, the PCjr wasn't as fast as the PC (that, and due to lack of DMA). When programming those modes under MS-DOS, I had to boot a particular setup where I knew the address of the video, which left me less memory to work with MS-DOS, since MS-DOS was loaded PAST the video memory (which if I recall, meant I lost something like 64 or 96K of RAM - oh, the video memory couldn't reside just anywhere, there were alignment restrictions. Sigh). -spc (Funny that the Tandy's were more compatible than the PCjr ... ) From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Tue Jun 24 18:36:12 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: Convergent Technology Computers In-Reply-To: from "Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers" at Jun 22, 97 03:32:45 am Message-ID: <199706242336.SAA08450@mastif.ee.nd.edu> > > > What's he got to trade? That's my own personal favourite machine -- in > my arrogant opinion the aesthetically finest machine ever made. (And I > had my 3B1 for a couple of years before I went to work for Unisys at the > old Convergent Technologies plant in San Jose). > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe > > Hello - I have several Convergent Technology computers. I have the users manuals and software. Do you have any technical documentation or schematics that you would be willing to share? I especially need to rewrite the ethernet software drivers. They don't handle subnets properly. John Ott ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 24 12:36:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <199706240825.21942@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > To me, some classic computers have a personality. The experience of > booting a PERQ 1 - particularly a PERQ 1 I'd just restored - is something > I'll never forget. The click as the power relay pulled in. The noise of > the fans. The squeal from the hard disk belt as the platters got up to > speed. The counting up of the DDS. And then the screen clearing, and a > logon prompt appearing. You don't get that with modern computers. > > I've never really thought about the people behind it, except in a very > general way. If the machine had 'come from another planet' I'd still like > it. I'd still be interested in it for what it can do - it's a fine piece > of machinery that can do some things that you can't do on any PC. > > People who are interested in the Apple ][ are interested (I suspect) > because of its place in history. It was one of the first true personal > computers. It got the micro revolution going. But that's not why _I_ > collect computers. I'm interested in the Apple because I grew up on it and it was a wonderful machine to grow up on at that. There was so much to explore. And it was more than just the machine itself, but the culture that spawned around it. The culture I am referring to mainly is the BBS culture with all its lingo, the pirate groups who banded together and cracked software, the holy wars with other computers. But I am always fascinated by other computers. More so than with the Apple. I know all about the apple. That's old hat. I love going to a swap meet and finding a computer I've never even heard of before (not likely since joining this discussion), then taking it home and turning it on and finding out that it booted into this particular BASIC or that particular monitor or (unfortunately) required this particular boot disk which I must now go find. Its fun to see the differet paradigms that computers of olden days used, rather than the ubiquitous PC BIOS that you invaribly see when you bootup any computer these days. Even computers I've loathed in the past I discover good things about and appreciate them for their uniqueness. The person behind the machine is not important to me. It really depends on the person. Again, since I grew up on Apples I would only be fascinated that Steve Wozniak did this hardware or that, because I know who he is and respect him. Any other well known creator (Chuck Peddle would be a good example) I could care less about because I barely know who he is or what he's done. Now, mind you I know Chuck has done some tremendous work now from having read the discussions on this newsgroup, but he's just not my hero because I didn't grow up on Commodores. It would be like trying to convince someone not from America how amazing Babe Ruth was. The history behind the machine is what I am most interested in. What company built it, what year it came out, what technology it used (its processor, RAM, etc), what its predecessor and successor were, etc. I like to know each machines historical perspective. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Tue Jun 24 19:10:07 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. Message-ID: Greeting: I am located in central Nebraska, USA, and am looking for the following to add to my collection. If you have these systems or might be able to get them for me at a reasonable price, PLEASE e-mail me. MSX computer Colour Genie TI 99/4a I am also looking for any old classic software for these types of computers. My specialty is the TRS-80 Model 1,3,4 computers. I am especially interested in TRS-80 and Apple ][e games at this time. If you would like a complete (65 page) listing of all my hardware and software available, please send me your mailing address. If you would like it immediately, please send $3 to the address below to cover shipping charges. Well, thanks a lot for your time, and I look forward to hearing from fellow collectors. Remember, I am always buying, selling, and trading. CORD COSLOR Archive Software //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From wbrco at valuenet.net Tue Jun 24 19:25:32 1997 From: wbrco at valuenet.net (Allen Underdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: question concerning SWTP system References: <199706232342.QAA28878@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <33AF3B36.1C77@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <33B0657C.67F5@valuenet.net> Jeff Hellige wrote: > > I'm looking at picking up a 6809 based system by SWTP. It has a couple > of RAM cards, a serial card, parallel card, and the CPU card, all on the > SS-50 bus, and it has OS-9 ROMS in it. The seller doesn't know if it's > functional or not. Is there anyone familiar with these machines? > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 yea, what do you want to know?? There were several versions of "bug". I never ran OS/9 (although I now have a machine that will). Tell me what versions/types of cards are in it and I can tell you what it is. -- | Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | | Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | | homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | | http://lakers.cybercon.com/wurmborn | From chemif at mbox.queen.it Tue Jun 24 19:33:28 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts Message-ID: <199706250033.CAA04147@mbox.queen.it> At 13:54 23/06/97 -0800, you wrote: >> On another note, has anyone ever seen (or have) a Basis-xxx? I know it >> has a number in the name, but I can't remember it. It was an Apple ][ >> clone that also ran CP/M I believe? Something like that. I'm sure >> someone knows about it. I only knew one guy who ever had one, but I never >> saw it. It was a friend in high school back in 1989. > >I believe these were designed/built in Europe, probably Germany. In Italy there was Lemon computer building Apple-clones. Has anyone heard about them? From clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com Tue Jun 24 20:04:53 1997 From: clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com (clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: C64 CP/M carts Message-ID: <97Jun24.182108pdt.32259@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> chemif@mbox.queen.it wrote: >At 13:54 23/06/97 -0800, you wrote: >>> On another note, has anyone ever seen (or have) a Basis-xxx? I know it >>> has a number in the name, but I can't remember it. It was an Apple ][ >>> clone that also ran CP/M I believe? Something like that. I'm sure >>> someone knows about it. I only knew one guy who ever had one, but I never >>> saw it. It was a friend in high school back in 1989. >> >>I believe these were designed/built in Europe, probably Germany. > >In Italy there was Lemon computer building Apple-clones. >Has anyone heard about them? Were they actually called 'Lemon's'? That certainly doesn't have a positive connotation in North America! In Canada, a company built Apple II clones called 'Pineapples'. There were probably other fruit-named clones as well! -- Clark Geisler From sinasohn at crl.com Tue Jun 24 20:27:45 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970624182843.5b2f4086@ricochet.net> At 04:09 PM 6/24/97 +0000, you wrote: >Your lovely machines (whichever they are) live *only* because there >someone (you or another human person) to make it work and appreciate the >results. They *only* live in your (or somebody else's) mind. And that is >why their history is important because it's not their history that we >appreciate but the sentiments, feelings, joy and sadness of the people >who used them! What yer saying then, is, that we should collect to remember the impact each computer had on our individual lives and on the lives of the people around us, rather than simply because a machine is physically attractive, technically impressive, or financially successful. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Tue Jun 24 20:27:50 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970624182846.5b2f83e6@ricochet.net> At 04:11 PM 6/24/97 +0000, you wrote: >I think that there is no need to get vulgar. If that is the general >feeling I apologise and widthdraw my question. Sorry There is no "general feeling". We are not the Borg. We are a bunch of individuals with differing opinions and attitudes. You are one of us, I am one of us, each of us is one of us. Some are more vocal than others. Take what is of use or of interest to you, and ignore the rest. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From william at ans.net Tue Jun 24 20:33:09 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: Computer Documentation In-Reply-To: <33B0346F.3FFC@rain.org> Message-ID: <199706250133.AA07560@interlock.ans.net> > One of the things *I* like to have available is the documentation, > particularly schematics, on the things that I have. As such, there are > docs and schematics on quite a bit of stuff here but there are also a > lot of holes. I'm not sure how the copyright laws apply to machines > where the company has ceased to exist, but it would be great to be able > to exchange documentation as needed. Things I have machine schematics > on include: It is good that you have volunteered information that perhaps someone on the list is dying to have. Perhaps a directory of people with maintenance prints is needed? I would be willing to share information. Currently, I have maintenance info on: DEC PDP-8/e,f,m,s Heathkits (various, I would have to look) Interdata model 4 and 14 Sphere 6800 SWTPC 6800 Of course some of this stuff is stored away and may take an excavation to find, but I am willing to make limitted copies. Of course, I am looking for maintenance info as well: HP 2100A SGI Iris 2500T > Things I would like to get include the Altos, Commodore Pet, Sol, Zeneth > H-67 Hard/Floppy disk unit, Compaq Deskpro and luggable, and a bunch of > others. Also, what about copies of the ROMs? I have a Zenith lugable > that is missing the System Roms and as such, have no way to even see if > it works. Anyone else with this type of problem? Yes, it seems that EPROMs are robbed out of many otherwise nice machines. A certain SGI Iris 2500T has just about EVERY ROM and big (PGA) chip pulled out... But it is still fun. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Tue Jun 24 20:45:58 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970624182843.5b2f4086@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199706250145.AA07943@interlock.ans.net> > us, rather than simply because a machine is physically attractive, > technically impressive, or financially successful. Actually, some of the real dogs are just as fun and important. The Lisa, for example, strikes out on all three (OK, two strikes and one foul) of the above mentioned catagories, but is still a fascinating machine. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Tue Jun 24 21:06:47 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: A very nice evening In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2054A979B@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > - IBM 5100 with a box of tapes! > - KIM-1 in original box(!) w/documentation, etc. Sa-weeet! > Plus a bunch of useful parts: > > - Two SoftStrip readers in original boxes w/docs, etc. TRADE! TRADE! I want one! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ccm at sentex.net Tue Jun 24 22:23:33 1997 From: ccm at sentex.net (Commercial Computing Museum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: Historical Research Message-ID: <199706250323.XAA13729@granite.sentex.net> This is just information. I completed a reference tool that accomplishes most of this for computers built between 1950 and 1979. It's called Domestic Commercial Computing Power Between 1950 & 1979 (DCCP). It doesn't include statistical data, but it does list every make and model of computers built or sold by North American computer companies. It was self-published, but you'll find reviews in upcoming issues of the Annals, Analytical Engine, and the CBI newsletter. It's not available on the web and I have no plans for that, but I am trying to make a CD version that would include photographs, commercials/promotional video clips, sales literature, etc. We could use a similar tool for the years 1980 onwards for commercially available computers, but also for military computers, industrial control computers, programmable communication controllers, etc. Yours in good faith. Kevin Stumpf ------------------------------------- I'm working on my signature file. From ccm at sentex.net Tue Jun 24 22:33:49 1997 From: ccm at sentex.net (Commercial Computing Museum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: Convergent Technology Computers Message-ID: <199706250333.XAA15028@granite.sentex.net> And don't forget the Workslate from Convergent. It was the slickest laptop around in 1984. Small LCD screen but built in voice digitization and voice mail system! No disk, only min-cassette. Kevin From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 24 22:55:46 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970624182846.5b2f83e6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > There is no "general feeling". We are not the Borg. We are a bunch of > individuals with differing opinions and attitudes. You are one of us, I am > one of us, each of us is one of us. Some are more vocal than others. Take > what is of use or of interest to you, and ignore the rest. Damn straight. Hell, I'd wager that there are more libertarians on this list than there are on a couple of lists that are dedicated to that philosophy. At least in terms of traffic. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Tue Jun 24 23:29:47 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <199706250145.AA07943@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > us, rather than simply because a machine is physically attractive, > > technically impressive, or financially successful. > > Actually, some of the real dogs are just as fun and important. The Lisa, > for example, strikes out on all three (OK, two strikes and one foul) of the > above mentioned catagories, but is still a fascinating machine. IMHO, the Lisa gets a hit, a base run, then a strike-out. Yeah, comparing the Lisa to the TRS-80 Model 16 from the same period (both 6Mhz 68000 CPU) is amusing. The Mod 16 gets a foul then two home runs. I stopped at the Softwaire Centre on Pico in West LA back in mid '83 (looking for a magazine - they didn't have it) and wound up asking myself "Here I am playing (some missile command clone) on the same CPU my customers are using to do their bookkeeping, but they've got three people pounding on keyboards, while this thing is making pictures and following a mouse." Yes, in those days I had an idea that a $5000+ computer should be usefull. (Now, sure, I'd love a Lisa -- and with the Unix port I saw on it at the the last OCC in Anaheim in '84 -- I'm not a serious GUI fan, though I fake it at work). The Mod 16 did a job -- the Lisa played games. Now, I want to play those games. But no _way_ will I replace the old Xenix box -- just add more CTIX, Unix, Solaris, Linux etc. boxen to stand by their older brother. Hey, I teethed on it when I wasn't even thirty years old yet. Yes, we all have our personal favorites, and want to learn more. After a while on this mailing list I'm actually _tempted_ to allow a machine with a 6502 into my home -- breaking a vow I made when I first saw the original Pet keyboard, Apple II disk subsystem and Atari _anything_ especially the 400 keyboard and BASIC interpreter (And I first learned BASIC on an HP, from whence Atari BASIC descends). We grow, we learn. If you stop learning, roll over -- if you're not dead, you should be. Such I learned from Robert Heinlein, my spiritual father. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From foxnhare at goldrush.com Tue Jun 24 23:32:20 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 93 References: <199706240702.AAA02009@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33B09F53.11E7@goldrush.com> >From: Kai Kaltenbach >Subject: My current For Trade/Wanted List >-------------------- >Wanted: >Commodore PET dual floppy system model 2040 I would suggest looking for a 4040, they are compatible with the 1541 as the 2040 is, more 4040s were made, and you won't have to worry about getting DOS 1.0 ROMs (which should be upgraded) The single drive equivelant to the 4040 is the 2031. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 25 02:03:05 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: Why? References: Message-ID: <33B0C2A9.2FB@ndirect.co.uk> Bill Whitson wrote: > > This thread is over. Do not respond to it again. If you wish to > continue this discussion do so by private e-mail. I don't want to > be a jerk about this but I made it pretty clear yesterday that this > is off-topic. > > If you wish to take issue with this contact me privately. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp > bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu > http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw AS you might have noticed I have not answered to messages to thsi topic anymore. It would be usefuls if you as the list operator, could clarify if this is only a technical topics list or if it is not possible to talk about the *history* of computing. As I have recently expressed here I believe that we all love old computers for what they mean in relation to the history of humanity an not only for the bare hardware (and software). Please note that I think I have quite a pretty extensive and balanced hardware collection in my Museum and so this is *not* something like the Esopo's story of the wolf and the sour grapes.... Thank you enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 25 02:09:14 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic References: Message-ID: <33B0C41A.5F0D@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > The history behind the machine is what I am most interested in. What > company built it, what year it came out, what technology it used (its > processor, RAM, etc), what its predecessor and successor were, etc. I > like to know each machines historical perspective. > > Sam I see that you had a change of mind. Good. Now can we start reasoning and perhaps, who knows, even agreeing.... enrico From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 25 02:11:48 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. References: Message-ID: <33B0C4B4.61BB@ndirect.co.uk> Cord Coslor wrote: > > Greeting: > > I am located in central Nebraska, USA, and am looking for the following to > add to my collection. If you have these systems or might be able to get > them for me at a reasonable price, PLEASE e-mail me. > > MSX computer > Colour Genie > TI 99/4a I have all three of them for sale/trade/swap I am looking for IBM PC Junior Apple II TRS-80 (model I) enrico From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 25 02:13:33 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic References: <1.5.4.16.19970624182846.5b2f83e6@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <33B0C51D.7CFE@ndirect.co.uk> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 04:11 PM 6/24/97 +0000, you wrote: > >I think that there is no need to get vulgar. If that is the general > >feeling I apologise and widthdraw my question. Sorry > > There is no "general feeling". We are not the Borg. We are a bunch of > individuals with differing opinions and attitudes. You are one of us, I am > one of us, each of us is one of us. Some are more vocal than others. Take > what is of use or of interest to you, and ignore the rest. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ OK, if this the policy I will oblige enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 25 02:16:46 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic References: <1.5.4.16.19970624182843.5b2f4086@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <33B0C5DE.52B7@ndirect.co.uk> Uncle Roger wrote: > > At 04:09 PM 6/24/97 +0000, you wrote: > >Your lovely machines (whichever they are) live *only* because there > >someone (you or another human person) to make it work and appreciate the > >results. They *only* live in your (or somebody else's) mind. And that is > >why their history is important because it's not their history that we > >appreciate but the sentiments, feelings, joy and sadness of the people > >who used them! > > What yer saying then, is, that we should collect to remember the impact each > computer had on our individual lives and on the lives of the people around > us, rather than simply because a machine is physically attractive, > technically impressive, or financially successful. What I am saying is that that particular machine is attractive, impressive or successfull because *YOU*, your friends, other people think, thought, did not think, did not thought, that it was so. In short for its history. Otherwise it is just a piece of metal and plastic. enrico ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 25 01:31:59 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: Convergent Technology Computers In-Reply-To: <199706250333.XAA15028@granite.sentex.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Commercial Computing Museum wrote: > And don't forget the Workslate from Convergent. It was the slickest laptop > around in 1984. Small LCD screen but built in voice digitization and voice > mail system! No disk, only min-cassette. I see one all the time at my local swap meet but always pass it up. I found a program micro-cassette at a thrift shop and decided I'm going to pick this thing up next swap meet. Sounds real neat. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 25 01:40:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <33B0C41A.5F0D@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > The history behind the machine is what I am most interested in. What > > company built it, what year it came out, what technology it used (its > > processor, RAM, etc), what its predecessor and successor were, etc. I > > like to know each machines historical perspective. > > > > Sam > > I see that you had a change of mind. Good. Now can we start reasoning > and perhaps, who knows, even agreeing.... I didn't have a change of mind. This is how I've felt all along. I just didn't appreciate someone attempting to ram it down my throat. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 25 02:19:53 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: Historical Research References: <199706250323.XAA13729@granite.sentex.net> Message-ID: <33B0C699.7042@rain.org> Commercial Computing Museum wrote: > > This is just information. I completed a reference tool that accomplishes > most of this for computers built between 1950 and 1979. It's called Domestic > Commercial Computing Power Between 1950 & 1979 (DCCP). It doesn't include > statistical data, but it does list every make and model of computers built > or sold by North American computer companies. It was self-published, but When you say it accomplishes most of this, are you referring to also including serial number information? Your idea of including sales literature and photos, and then making it available on CD is excellent! I am talking with some friends of mine about doing something similiar. Judging by the trends in computer collecting over the past couple of years, I tend to think that collecting classic computers is gaining in popularity and that printed information is currently, for the most part, sorely lacking. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Wed Jun 25 02:21:53 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Whoah! I ignore my mailbox for a few days and come in to find out it's waaay over quota and stuff will start bouncing if I don't clean it up real fast. Gotta love this group! :) On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > I would guess that the controller is compatible with Disk ][ drives, > although it would not surprised me if Apple purposely changed the pinouts > or used a different connector to thwart anyone attempting to use a ][ > drive with the ///. Yeah, I guess that wouldn't surprise me. If anyone does know for certain, please do tell! > > Thankfully my internal drive works, but I wouldn't mind hooking up a > > second drive to it... and the chances of finding a Disk /// lying around > > are practically nil. > > I don't think they made such a beast...did they? Yes, they did. Actually, I picked up a little booklet in a thrift shop recently, that's labeled "Apple In Depth: A Reference Guide to Apple Products", and the Disk /// is in there. An interesting quote from the "Apple Disk ///" page: "The first external drive that you add to your system just plugs into the back of your Apple ///. Then up to two more drives can be added in 'daisy chain' fashion... ...There are no separate power cords to tangle up because the Apple /// supplies power directly to the disks." I don't think I'd trust my Apple /// in its current condition to power three external drives, though. :) > ShrinkIt is easy to use. You'll do fine. I'll try to e-mail the images > to you in uuencoded format sometime within the next few days (I am busy). Take your time, I have a full mailbox at the moment. :) > > I don't suppose the /// disks are available at some anonymous FTP site > > already? It'd be especially cool in .dsk format, as that's how I transfer > > all of my ][ software. (I never had a decent terminal program for my > > Micromodem IIe, so I wrote a whole disk transfer program and extract > > individual files when I have to once the disk image is on my Amiga.) > > I doubt it. It would be a good thing to do though. Once the disks are in my hands, I'll make .dsk files for my own archives, anyway. It's funny... I started making these .dsk files in 1993, before I was aware of anyone else using them for anything. The format is obvious, but I even used that extension. I had just discovered, after several years of neglecting my ][+, that bit rot had set in on a fair number of disks and I wanted to put the data somewhere safe. > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 25 02:35:24 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: H8 References: Message-ID: <33B0CA3C.78F0@rain.org> Well, I ended up buying the lot for $100. For those who are interested, the lot included: H8 Computer H19 Terminal FX-80 printer in original box Heathkit dual 5 1/2" floppy disk drives Heathkit dual 8" floppy disk drives 4 boxes of docs, schematics, and software (each box about 12" x 12" x 24") HDOS program listings 1 box of extra boards of some type for the H8 I might add everything there is in mint condition and the guy I bought it from was the orignal owner/builder! Haven't had time yet to sort things out. Since this weekend is field day (Amateur Radio event), I probably won't have a chance to check out everything until sometime next week. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Wed Jun 25 03:40:19 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: AIM65 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > At > this point, unless someone comes along and offers him more than $125 per > unit and buys the whole lot, they are going to Dynatem. That's too rich > for my blood. Whoah! I'm a student who WOULD be starving if he didn't still live at home with the 'rents. So much for that. :( > He also has the line on hundreds of Panasonic RL-H18 palmtops. This is a > palmtop which came out around 1985 and had FORTH in ROM. It also has a > 20-col (or 40-col?) thermal printer and a case which bundles the two > together. His company also developed an expansion "tray" which houses > extra memory that the Panasonic can access through bank-switching. He > sold this product to (I believe) an insurance firm and now they want to > dump them all. Now again, he said they have hundreds, and were just > going to shit-can them, but he said the company would most likely opt to > get some money back for them if they could. He said probably about $10 > per unit would get them, but they'd have to be purchased in one shot. > Now I don't think that there are enough people here with an interest to > buy one. I've never seen this particular model, but I'm interested. Maybe in as many as *three* of them. I currently don't have anything more 'portable' than a Kaypro, so I'll even put up with the teensy-weensy screens on those things just to have something I can take with me on my lengthy bus trips in and out of town. (And they'd give me something to do during boring lectures, too. :) ) > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From groberts at mitre.org Wed Jun 25 06:55:57 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: H8 In-Reply-To: <33B0CA3C.78F0@rain.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970625075557.007cb740@mail90> did your haul include the *source code* listings for HDOS? HDOS was one of the few OS'es for which one could get source listings back then (of course there was also UCSD Pascal). I'd love to pursue the possibility of posting these on the internet somewhere if we could get permission from Zenith Data Systems (I presume they're the owners of rights to this now?) There's already a fair amount out there that's been reverse engineered but why not make the original available? haven't seen much traffic on this group about the H8 but it was a wonderful machine in its own right. i've still got mine and it hums along just fine. - glenn At 12:35 AM 6/25/97 -0700, you wrote: >Well, I ended up buying the lot for $100. For those who are interested, >the lot included: > >H8 Computer >H19 Terminal >FX-80 printer in original box >Heathkit dual 5 1/2" floppy disk drives >Heathkit dual 8" floppy disk drives >4 boxes of docs, schematics, and software (each box about 12" x 12" x >24") >HDOS program listings >1 box of extra boards of some type for the H8 > >I might add everything there is in mint condition and the guy I bought >it from was the orignal owner/builder! Haven't had time yet to sort >things out. Since this weekend is field day (Amateur Radio event), I >probably won't have a chance to check out everything until sometime next >week. > > +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From william at ans.net Wed Jun 25 07:38:18 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706251238.AA26106@interlock.ans.net> > > Actually, some of the real dogs are just as fun and important. The Lisa, > > for example, strikes out on all three (OK, two strikes and one foul) of the > > above mentioned catagories, but is still a fascinating machine. > > IMHO, the Lisa gets a hit, a base run, then a strike-out. Let me clarify my analogy: aesthetic - strike - At least a few poeple back then said it looked like an old fashioned computer terminal. The other machines of the time looked far more modern. technical - foul - It seems that the Lisa should do better here, but I really think the engineers blew it. The original OS is too innovative, so much that the computer is nearly unuseable. success - strike - Obviously! William Donzelli william@ans.net From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Tue Jun 24 21:33:21 1997 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: apple II - SCORE! Message-ID: <199706251321.GAA01829@mx2.u.washington.edu> > My girlfriend is a professional sculptress, I don't know why I > didn't ask her to begin with. She recommended plain amonia, which I was > sceptical of. I wanted to use Formula 405 basically because you had > recommended it. Well, the amonia worked great and the case looks nearly > brand new - it sure took several hours though. ;-) Never doubt a woman I'm told that FANTASTIK handles static better than Formula 405. I noticed a reference to trichloroethane a few days ago. I usta use it years ago on Xeroxes. Be *careful* with it on hot parts. I'm told that on contact with hot metal, trichlor produces phosgene gas, which was one of the war gases used in WWI...slightly fatal. :> > You could remove the keys and actually clean the > contacts with alchohol. Is this possible, or am I just going to be able > to get dust bunnies between the keys? I've successfully used alcohol to clean keys by squirting it in there at high pressure from a bottle. Have you tried MEK? I think of alcohol (the kind without water) and MEK as safe on almost anything. From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Tue Jun 24 22:03:23 1997 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <199706251321.GAA12552@mx5.u.washington.edu> Why do I play with old computers? I love collecting oddball stuff, just to consider what people could do...in what directions the industry could have gone. I play with old software (Visicalc, Concurrent DOS, and others) and trace their influences on today's WINtel products...and you know? as clunky as those old programs are, today's software is a direct descendant of many classic programs. I'm a trivia freak, and computer trivia's fun. Old computers are great trivia. (here's a good one for everyone...does anyone remember "synthetic programming"? Explanation on request.) I recondition old PC's, because -- then -- it puts an *affordable* PC into someone's hands. Unused machinery distresses me. Good machinery trashed makes me really ill. Why do we (USA) throw so much away? I loved computers from my first programmable calculator (1978...a TI-58). I lusted after many higher-priced units of the day. I can satisfy my ex-lusts now for -- sometimes -- a few bucks. I see the earlier stuff I have on the shelf increasing in value. Hey I'm not in business for my health! And...so you watch TV in the evening. Well, I hate TV and don't watch it. Does that make it bad? I read old issues of Punch Magazine, sci-fi and play with old machines. We all should have *something* different to do, or else we'd be alike, and who would I talk to, to keep me interested? From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Jun 25 08:28:10 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: Convergent Technology Computers Message-ID: <199706251324.IAA02276@challenge.sunflower.com> Are those DOS machines, or are those the BTOS/CTOS type I used to run in the military? ---------- > From: Sam Ismail > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Convergent Technology Computers > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 1:31 AM > > On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Commercial Computing Museum wrote: > > > And don't forget the Workslate from Convergent. It was the slickest laptop > > around in 1984. Small LCD screen but built in voice digitization and voice > > mail system! No disk, only min-cassette. > > I see one all the time at my local swap meet but always pass it up. I > found a program micro-cassette at a thrift shop and decided I'm going to > pick this thing up next swap meet. Sounds real neat. > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Wed Jun 25 05:07:33 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic References: Message-ID: <33B0EDE5.223@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > > The history behind the machine is what I am most interested in. What > > > company built it, what year it came out, what technology it used (its > > > processor, RAM, etc), what its predecessor and successor were, etc. I > > > like to know each machines historical perspective. > > > > > > Sam > > > > I see that you had a change of mind. Good. Now can we start reasoning > > and perhaps, who knows, even agreeing.... > > I didn't have a change of mind. This is how I've felt all along. I just > didn't appreciate someone attempting to ram it down my throat. > > Sam Just as a matter of curiosity, I hope you don't mind my asking your age? If you do, I apologise. enrico From walgen at do.isst.fhg.de Thu Jun 26 08:46:28 1997 From: walgen at do.isst.fhg.de (Stefan Walgenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. Message-ID: <01BC817F.72DEE050@dhcp9.do.isst.fhg.de> ---------- From: Cord Coslor[SMTP:coslor@pscosf.peru.edu] Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 2:50 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. > I am located in central Nebraska, USA, and am looking for the following to > add to my collection. If you have these systems or might be able to get > them for me at a reasonable price, PLEASE e-mail me. > > MSX computer > Colour Genie > TI 99/4a I have a Colour Genie and a Sony HitBit HB75 and also a Ti99/4A as I live in germany sending the TI99/4A makes no sense but if you are interested in the other items drop me a note. I would like to swap them on a "I send them to you and pay on my own and you send me some other stuff and pay for the shipping". What do you think? Here my URL for some other stuff I have to trade: http://192.102.161.122/~walgen/ From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Jun 25 09:00:26 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. Message-ID: <199706251356.IAA04079@challenge.sunflower.com> Im in kansas and have a spare TI994a with powersupply but no RF box. ---------- > From: Stefan Walgenbach > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. > Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 8:46 AM > > > > ---------- > From: Cord Coslor[SMTP:coslor@pscosf.peru.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 2:50 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. > > > > I am located in central Nebraska, USA, and am looking for the following to > > add to my collection. If you have these systems or might be able to get > > them for me at a reasonable price, PLEASE e-mail me. > > > > MSX computer > > Colour Genie > > TI 99/4a > > I have a Colour Genie and a Sony HitBit HB75 and also a Ti99/4A > as I live in germany sending the TI99/4A makes no sense but if you > are interested in the other items drop me a note. I would like to > swap them on a "I send them to you and pay on my own and you send > me some other stuff and pay for the shipping". What do you think? > > Here my URL for some other stuff I have to trade: > > http://192.102.161.122/~walgen/ > From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 25 15:50:32 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <199706251321.GAA12552@mx5.u.washington.edu>; from "PG Manney" at Jun 24, 97 11:03 pm Message-ID: <199706251450.12067@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Why do I play with old computers? > > I love collecting oddball stuff, just to consider what people could do...in > what directions the industry could have gone. I play with old software > (Visicalc, Concurrent DOS, and others) and trace their influences on > today's WINtel products...and you know? as clunky as those old programs > are, today's software is a direct descendant of many classic programs. > > I'm a trivia freak, and computer trivia's fun. Old computers are great > trivia. (here's a good one for everyone...does anyone remember "synthetic > programming"? Explanation on request.) > > I recondition old PC's, because -- then -- it puts an *affordable* PC into > someone's hands. Unused machinery distresses me. Good machinery trashed > makes me really ill. Why do we (USA) throw so much away? > > I loved computers from my first programmable calculator (1978...a TI-58). I > lusted after many higher-priced units of the day. I can satisfy my ex-lusts > now for -- sometimes -- a few bucks. > > I see the earlier stuff I have on the shelf increasing in value. Hey I'm > not in business for my health! > > And...so you watch TV in the evening. Well, I hate TV and don't watch it. > Does that make it bad? I read old issues of Punch Magazine, sci-fi and play > with old machines. We all should have *something* different to do, or else > we'd be alike, and who would I talk to, to keep me interested? > > > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ghjorth at sn.no Wed Jun 25 15:26:51 1997 From: ghjorth at sn.no (Thomas Christopher Jarvis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 94 In-Reply-To: <199706250702.AAA25736@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Will someone take me off this list. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 25 17:06:02 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <199706251321.GAA12552@mx5.u.washington.edu>; from "PG Manney" at Jun 24, 97 11:03 pm Message-ID: <199706251606.17384@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Sorry about the repeated message - this is what I wanted to say : > I love collecting oddball stuff, just to consider what people could do...in > what directions the industry could have gone. I play with old software > (Visicalc, Concurrent DOS, and others) and trace their influences on > today's WINtel products...and you know? as clunky as those old programs > are, today's software is a direct descendant of many classic programs. What worries me is that in a lot of cases, the older machines are more useable than the modern Wintel equivalents. This applies both to a new user (somebody who just wants to write 2 page letters does _NOT_ (or should not) need a 166MHz Pentium with 16Mbytes of RAM), and to 'hackers' who want to understand their machines. It's possible for one person to complete understand both the hardware and software of most classic computers - something that (IMHO) is not possible with a Wintel box. > > I'm a trivia freak, and computer trivia's fun. Old computers are great > trivia. (here's a good one for everyone...does anyone remember "synthetic > programming"? Explanation on request.) Remember it? If it's what I am thinking of, I was doing it a couple of weeks ago. You are talking about a 'Coconut', right (explanation of that codename also on request - it has _nothing_ to do with the Tandy CoCo). Nowadays I do something similar. I create a GROB with the right bit patterns, use the SystemRPL 'Get' routine to remove the header, and thus create new objects. > And...so you watch TV in the evening. Well, I hate TV and don't watch it. No I don't. In fact I don't even own a (broadcast-band) television. There are plenty of computers to play with, circuits to solder up and try out, enthusiasts to swap war stories with, programs to write, etc. I am not going to waste what little time I have watching other people do mindless things ;-) -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Wed Jun 25 11:21:37 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <01IKHIF8U3W6AKU831@cc.usu.edu> > Remember it? If it's what I am thinking of, I was doing it a couple of > weeks ago. You are talking about a 'Coconut', right (explanation of that > codename also on request - it has _nothing_ to do with the Tandy CoCo). > Nowadays I do something similar. I create a GROB with the right bit > patterns, use the SystemRPL 'Get' routine to remove the header, and thus > create new objects. Wouldn't it be easier to create the object on something else (like that PDP-11 sitting in the corner) and then just download it using Kermit? I built a set of macros for M80 to create Chip-8 code I could download from my DECmate, but I never cobbled together a real assembler for the beast... Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Jun 25 17:28:40 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <01IKHIF8U3W6AKU831@cc.usu.edu>; from "Roger Ivie" at Jun 25, 97 10:21 am Message-ID: <199706251628.18510@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > Remember it? If it's what I am thinking of, I was doing it a couple of > > weeks ago. You are talking about a 'Coconut', right (explanation of that > > codename also on request - it has _nothing_ to do with the Tandy CoCo). > > Nowadays I do something similar. I create a GROB with the right bit > > patterns, use the SystemRPL 'Get' routine to remove the header, and thus > > create new objects. > > Wouldn't it be easier to create the object on something else (like that > PDP-11 sitting in the corner) and then just download it using Kermit? Yes, if I had the PDP11 with me all the time. The point is that by building the object on the target machine (notice how carefully I'm avoiding mentioning the name), I can build new system objects anywhere. It takes the boredom out of long journeys... > I built a set of macros for M80 to create Chip-8 code I could download > from my DECmate, but I never cobbled together a real assembler for the > beast... It's not that hard. Saturn Assembler is quite straightforward (especially if you use a 'sane' set of mnemonics), and is pretty well documented in (e.g.) Volume 1 of the '71' IDS. > > Roger Ivie > ivie@cc.usu.edu > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 25 11:52:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > I had just discovered, after several years of neglecting my ][+, that bit > rot had set in on a fair number of disks and I wanted to put the data > somewhere safe. I've been really lucky in that respect. All my disks seem to be working fine even after 10 years (tap on silicon). I still even have my first two Dysan floppies that my friend gave me for my computer class in 9th grade. Haven't booted them in a while though. I know of a way to fix bad sectors on Apple // disks that requires a little luck. I wrote a sector editor a long time ago that I used for all my hacking. This editor allowed me to read and write sectors very easily. I disabled the checksum verification in DOS so that when it came upon a bad sector it wouldn't barf. It would just read whatever data it found and then throw it up on the screen. I could tell if a sector wasn't right by the look of its bytes in ASCII with relation to sectors around it. I got very good at this. Whenever I found a bad sector on one of my disks, I would run my sector editor, jump to the bad sector then continually read it until I saw what I liked and then wrote it back out. Worked like a charm. This would usually fix the problem, which was caused by acute bit rot. This obviously won't work on disks that have just plum gone bad, but I've had a phenomanol (shit can't spell today) success rate. If anyone wants to do this, you stick an $18 in $B942 (from the monitor B942: 18) which disables the DOS sector checksum verification. Of course you must use a sector editor which uses the DOS in memory. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From walgen at do.isst.fhg.de Thu Jun 26 12:13:59 1997 From: walgen at do.isst.fhg.de (Stefan Walgenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: Help identifying ... Message-ID: <01BC819C.60BECE90@dhcp9.do.isst.fhg.de> Hi, today I got a special german (?) computer. It is a "SIEMENS PC100". But inside there is a board labled "R6500 ADVANCED INTERACTIVE MICROCOMPUTER" it is made by "ROCKLWELL" with a small (thermo?) printer a one-line display. Is this one of the legendary AIM65-Machines? From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 25 12:21:03 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:37 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <199706251721.AA16555@world.std.com> > What worries me is that in a lot of cases, the older machines are more > useable than the modern Wintel equivalents. This applies both to a new > user (somebody who just wants to write 2 page letters does _NOT_ (or > should not) need a 166MHz Pentium with 16Mbytes of RAM), and to 'hackers' > who want to understand their machines. It's possible for one person to > complete understand both the hardware and software of most classic > computers - something that (IMHO) is not possible with a Wintel box. Same here. In reality I use my s100 crate, ampro, and sb180 to produce 8048/9 and 8051 code as they really are faster and easier to use. Also being as I have them interconnected it's easier to blast proms in the s100 crate. Efficient, very! I've had nearly 20 years to refine the code and tools! I have the advantage of having source code for those tools so and long latent bugs are easily squashed. This is not doable on PCs. I still do my banking/checkbook on the kaypro! Faster than the PC overall. Allison From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 25 12:25:01 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Help identifying ... Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2054DD907@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Yes, it is. Kai > ---------- > From: Stefan Walgenbach > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 10:13 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Help identifying ... > > Hi, > > today I got a special german (?) computer. It is a "SIEMENS PC100". > But inside > there is a board labled "R6500 ADVANCED INTERACTIVE MICROCOMPUTER" > it is made by "ROCKLWELL" with a small (thermo?) printer a one-line > display. Is this one of the legendary AIM65-Machines? > From rcini at msn.com Wed Jun 25 12:19:15 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Computer Documentation Message-ID: Marvin: I, too, like to have documentation for my various holdings. I have copies of the service manuals for the Radio Shack Model I, the Commodore PET 4032, the VIC-20 and (I think) the VIC 1541 floppy drive. I'd like to get copies of the schematics for the Altair, the IMSAI, and anything related to the System 23/Datamaster. If you need these, I can have copies made. As far as ROMs are concerned, maybe we can start a "ROM Archive" database/repository. Members with EPROM programmers could make copies of known-good ROMS from various machines at the request of other members. However, there is a major pitfall: version control. Unless someone has an idea as to which ROM versions go with each hardware revision, there is a risk of incompatibility. Although, what's the worst that can happen -- it doesn't work. As far as Copyright concerns, I don't think that there are any. First, many of our target companies are out of business. Second, we are not selling these chips (and the software contained therein) in a commercial sense. Third, they're being used as a one-for-one replacement for defective firmware. I view it like a diskette: I own Norton Utilities with a bad disk 1. My friend also owns Norton Utilities, and he makes me a copy of his disk 1. Both of us have valid software licenses because we both bought the program. It's like preservation of matter. Rich Cini/WUGNET - MCPS Windows 95/Networking - ClubWin Charter Member Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:56:15 -0700 From: Marvin To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: Computer Documentation Message-ID: <33B0346F.3FFC@rain.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the things *I* like to have available is the documentation, particularly schematics, on the things that I have. As such, there are docs and schematics on quite a bit of stuff here but there are also a lot of holes. I'm not sure how the copyright laws apply to machines where the company has ceased to exist, but it would be great to be able to exchange documentation as needed. Things I have machine schematics on include: From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jun 25 12:37:29 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: I love WinTel! In-Reply-To: <199706251721.AA16555@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970625133729.00a0b370@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Allison J Parent said: >> What worries me is that in a lot of cases, the older machines are more >> useable than the modern Wintel equivalents. This applies both to a new >> user (somebody who just wants to write 2 page letters does _NOT_ (or >> should not) need a 166MHz Pentium with 16Mbytes of RAM), and to 'hackers' >> who want to understand their machines. It's possible for one person to >> complete understand both the hardware and software of most classic >> computers - something that (IMHO) is not possible with a Wintel box. >Same here. In reality I use my s100 crate, ampro, and sb180 to produce >8048/9 and 8051 code as they really are faster and easier to use. Also >being as I have them interconnected it's easier to blast proms in the >s100 crate. Efficient, very! I've had nearly 20 years to refine the code >and tools! I have the advantage of having source code for those tools so >and long latent bugs are easily squashed. This is not doable on PCs. > >I still do my banking/checkbook on the kaypro! Faster than the PC overall. I love my PC! I've got a Cyrix 6x86-P150+ Running MS-DOG, running: (drum roll, please! ) My Tandy CoCo3 emulator! I have the fastest CoCo in a 50 mile radius! Running the disk EDTASM package for that computer is... well... kludgy. (Please, no flames... no computer's perfect!) The (relatively) slow boot times for the software, plus other factors in setting up the environment to run an ML proggie gives me a boot assembler / load software / make changes & compile / reboot to fresh / run ML / watch computer crash / reboot & start over. This cycle takes 10-20 minutes on my CoCo3, but takes 2-5 minutes on Goon. Also, as the only eprom burner I have is on wifey's '286, I can save my wonderful (in my eyes! ;-) ML creations to an IBM floppy, and burn them on the '286 so I can plug 'em into one of my 3 (soon to be 5) CoCo's. Not to mention having access to optical storage (MO and soon to have CD-RW) -- great fixes for bit-rot, so my CoCo's can go for another 50 years! Mind you, I use this tool to enhance my CoCo-ing, not to replace it. If anyone wants info on how to purchase the CoCo3 emulator, just ask! See ya, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Wed Jun 25 12:44:00 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: ROM ARCHIVE (was computer documentation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gret idea on the ROM archive. However, the work involved would be quite little... as almost every ROM image has already been pulled and stored in a PC or Mac readable image... Mainly with the recent boom in emulator technology. These ROMs can then be written back to 'real' rom chips in most cases. Well, that's all I have right now. CORD COSLOR Archive Software //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > Marvin: > > I, too, like to have documentation for my various holdings. I have copies of > the service manuals for the Radio Shack Model I, the Commodore PET 4032, the > VIC-20 and (I think) the VIC 1541 floppy drive. I'd like to get copies of the > schematics for the Altair, the IMSAI, and anything related to the System > 23/Datamaster. If you need these, I can have copies made. > > As far as ROMs are concerned, maybe we can start a "ROM Archive" > database/repository. Members with EPROM programmers could make copies of > known-good ROMS from various machines at the request of other members. > However, there is a major pitfall: version control. Unless someone has an idea > as to which ROM versions go with each hardware revision, there is a risk of > incompatibility. Although, what's the worst that can happen -- it doesn't > work. > > As far as Copyright concerns, I don't think that there are any. First, many > of our target companies are out of business. Second, we are not selling these > chips (and the software contained therein) in a commercial sense. Third, > they're being used as a one-for-one replacement for defective firmware. I view > it like a diskette: I own Norton Utilities with a bad disk 1. My friend also > owns Norton Utilities, and he makes me a copy of his disk 1. Both of us have > valid software licenses because we both bought the program. It's like > preservation of matter. > > Rich Cini/WUGNET > - MCPS Windows 95/Networking > - ClubWin Charter Member > > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:56:15 -0700 > From: Marvin > To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Subject: Computer Documentation > Message-ID: <33B0346F.3FFC@rain.org> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > One of the things *I* like to have available is the documentation, > particularly schematics, on the things that I have. As such, there are > docs and schematics on quite a bit of stuff here but there are also a > lot of holes. I'm not sure how the copyright laws apply to machines > where the company has ceased to exist, but it would be great to be able > to exchange documentation as needed. Things I have machine schematics > on include: > > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 25 13:59:13 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 25, 97 09:52:25 am Message-ID: <9706251759.AA06358@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 622 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970625/9504a165/attachment-0001.ksh From dastar at crl.com Wed Jun 25 12:40:52 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Computer Documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > As far as ROMs are concerned, maybe we can start a "ROM Archive" > database/repository. Members with EPROM programmers could make copies of > known-good ROMS from various machines at the request of other members. Good idea. I think someone's thrown this out before. Anyone want to volunteer to coordinate? > As far as Copyright concerns, I don't think that there are any. First, many > of our target companies are out of business. Second, we are not selling these > chips (and the software contained therein) in a commercial sense. Third, > they're being used as a one-for-one replacement for defective firmware. I view > it like a diskette: I own Norton Utilities with a bad disk 1. My friend also > owns Norton Utilities, and he makes me a copy of his disk 1. Both of us have > valid software licenses because we both bought the program. It's like > preservation of matter. Let's put it this way: if you don't tell anyone, I won't. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From william at ans.net Wed Jun 25 13:03:14 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: ROM ARCHIVE (was computer documentation) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706251803.AA16197@interlock.ans.net> > Gret idea on the ROM archive. However, the work involved would be quite > little... as almost every ROM image has already been pulled and stored in > a PC or Mac readable image... Mainly with the recent boom in emulator > technology. These ROMs can then be written back to 'real' rom chips in > most cases. What format would these images be? S-records? William Donzelli william@ans.net From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 25 13:08:15 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: H8 References: <3.0.2.32.19970625075557.007cb740@mail90> Message-ID: <33B15E8F.1AD1@rain.org> Glenn Roberts wrote: > > did your haul include the *source code* listings for HDOS? HDOS was one of > the few OS'es for which one could get source listings back then (of course > there was also UCSD Pascal). I'd love to pursue the possibility of posting > these on the internet somewhere if we could get permission from Zenith Data > Systems (I presume they're the owners of rights to this now?) There's > already a fair amount out there that's been reverse engineered but why not > make the original available? > Yes, there are two volumes of listings for the HDOS source code. I don't know if it is on disk there or only in printed form, but it would be nice to make that listing available! From dlw at neosoft.com Wed Jun 25 14:47:04 1997 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Places in Austin TX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199706251848.NAA26266@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> Hello, I'm heading to Austin TX to pick up a system this weekend and I was wondering if anyone here knew of any good places there to find systems, doc, etc. Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Wed Jun 25 13:45:32 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: IBM System/36 In-Reply-To: <33B15E8F.1AD1@rain.org> Message-ID: I have a chance to get a System/36. It lacks boot disks, but has most of the documentation. It's not too big, and has an interesting panel. Anyone know what it is? Or how to set it up? It's at my workplace, going to be sold. I don't know if it's worth getting or not. (It currently costs $200). From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed Jun 25 15:05:37 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Archiving Stuff Message-ID: Hi all. Consider Classiccmp Web/FTP open for your archiving pleasure ;). The process has been more or less tested out and is ready to go. Submissions of Software, Documentation, ROM code, whatever are all OK. What really remains to be done is to work out standards for file formats. I'll let those of you who are experts on specific platforms argue that out. I'll follow whatever ensues and firm up some guidelines. To submit something you need to download the form DS-form.txt from the FTP site (140.142.225.27) and fill it out to the best of your ability. Follow the instructions at the bottom of the form for uploading. All the form does is provide evidence (if anyone ever complains) that I'm not just uploading copyrighted material without a care. Anyway - if you're itching to archive stuff feel free. Your comments are welcome and also unavoidable ;) Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 25 15:48:35 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2054F8839@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Hey, figuring out standards like this is what I do. I recommend: JPEG for photo scans (brochures, ads, etc.) - It's the Internet photo file format standard Compressed 1-bit, 300 dpi TIFF for schematics - Almost everything supports TIFF, including tons of shareware and Wang's free image processing add-on for Win95 (http://www.microsoft.com/windows95/info/wang.htm) - 1-bit means monochrome (not grayscale). Use JPEG for images. - Images should be 300 dpi, 8 1/2" x 11", i.e. 2550 x 3300 (don't worry about scanning white space, it takes no space at all when compressed) TXT for text documents that don't use formatting - 80-column with carriage returns please RTF (Rich Text Format) for text documents that use formatting - WordPerfect, Word, WordPad, etc. will save in this format Kai > ---------- > From: Bill Whitson > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 1:05 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Archiving Stuff > > Hi all. > > Consider Classiccmp Web/FTP open for your archiving pleasure ;). > > The process has been more or less tested out and is ready to go. > Submissions of Software, Documentation, ROM code, whatever are all > OK. > > What really remains to be done is to work out standards for file > formats. I'll let those of you who are experts on specific platforms > argue that out. I'll follow whatever ensues and firm up some > guidelines. > > To submit something you need to download the form DS-form.txt from > the FTP site (140.142.225.27) and fill it out to the best of your > ability. Follow the instructions at the bottom of the form for > uploading. > > All the form does is provide evidence (if anyone ever complains) that > I'm not just uploading copyrighted material without a care. > > Anyway - if you're itching to archive stuff feel free. Your comments > are welcome and also unavoidable ;) > > Bill > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp > bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu > http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw > > From william at ans.net Wed Jun 25 16:26:40 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: IBM System/36 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706252126.AA28748@interlock.ans.net> > I have a chance to get a System/36. It lacks boot disks, but has most of > the documentation. It's not too big, and has an interesting panel. Like most IBM stuff - clean, conservative, well done. > Anyone know what it is? One of IBM's minicomputers from the 1980s. It replaced the System/34, but has been replaced by the AS/400s. > Or how to set it up? I do not know - I have been throwing things and breaking stuff trying to get RCS/RI's machine to boot. > I don't know if it's worth getting or not. (It > currently costs $200). Not at $200. Users are abandoning the minis (Systems/34, 36, and 38) in large crowds. I placed an ad looking for old IBMs (hoping to snag a 370 - right), and was offered quite a few free for hauling. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed Jun 25 07:47:45 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Apple /// stuff (was: Re: This weekend's haul) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 25-Jun-97, Sam Ismail wrote: >I've been really lucky in that respect. All my disks seem to be working >fine even after 10 years (tap on silicon). I still even have my first >two Dysan floppies that my friend gave me for my computer class in 9th >grade. Haven't booted them in a while though. I've got plenty of original program disks for the Atari 800 that still work after nearly 15 years. In fact, at the one thrift store I frequent, I picked up a version of VisiCalc for the Atari 800, all original packaging, manuals, cards, disks and all! The outside cardboard sleeve is a little worn (afterall, it is from 1982), but the inside even smells new still. No wear on the pages or anything. I've yet to try to read the diskette though. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From tedbird at ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 25 16:21:57 1997 From: tedbird at ix.netcom.com (Ted Birdsell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 and more available for trade. References: <+t/qzQv6D0FS092yn@oslonett.no> Message-ID: <33B18BF5.5FB2@ix.netcom.com> Hi all, I have the following computers available for trade: IMSAI 8080 Osbourne Kaypro II Apple Lisa Apple /// Commodore CBM 4016 Commodore SX-64 I'm looking for other computers of equal vintage. Trades only, I won't sell them. The Altair Turnkey is no longer available - thanks for all the interest. Ted tedbird@ix.netcom.com From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Wed Jun 25 16:28:48 1997 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <199706252140.OAA22215@mx3.u.washington.edu> > > > Remember it? If it's what I am thinking of, I was doing it a couple of > > > weeks ago. You are talking about a 'Coconut', right (explanation of that > > > codename also on request - it has _nothing_ to do with the Tandy CoCo). > > > Nowadays I do something similar. I create a GROB with the right bit > > > patterns, use the SystemRPL 'Get' routine to remove the header, and thus > > > create new objects. No, not quite. The HP-41C used 2, 3 or 4 bytes to create the program steps. By forcing apart the bytes and substituting new ones, new ("synthetic") opcodes could be created. These ranged from creating new characters to being able to access areas of memory. Ah, the heady days of discovery! Mother HP wouldn't officially help, but there was plenty of behind-the-scenes help. From manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Wed Jun 25 16:14:42 1997 From: manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. Message-ID: <199706252140.OAA16017@mx4.u.washington.edu> > I am looking for > > IBM PC Junior > Apple II > TRS-80 (model I) I think I have a couple of trash-80's in the back room. One with disks, one without. Do they say "model 1"? (I don't know these at all) Does have a Lisa he/she wants to unload? I also have several, nice-condition Commodore boxes that I'd hate to pitch. As long as we're in the subject of trading, I have several years of PPC (HP programmable calculator user group) that I'd *love* to find a home for of...absolutely fascinating stuff, including the origin of Ulam's conjecture. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed Jun 25 08:10:51 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Historical Research In-Reply-To: <199706250323.XAA13729@granite.sentex.net> Message-ID: On 25-Jun-97, Commercial Computing Museum wrote: >This is just information. I completed a reference tool that accomplishes >most of this for computers built between 1950 and 1979. It's called Domestic >Commercial Computing Power Between 1950 & 1979 (DCCP). It doesn't include >statistical data, but it does list every make and model of computers built >or sold by North American computer companies. It was self-published, but >you'll find reviews in upcoming issues of the Annals, Analytical Engine, >and the CBI newsletter. It's not available on the web and I have no plans >for that, but I am trying to make a CD version that would include >photographs, commercials/promotional video clips, sales literature, etc. Where is this available from? It certainly sounds interesting. >We could use a similar tool for the years 1980 onwards for commercially >available computers, but also for military computers, industrial control >computers, programmable communication controllers, etc. Another project that sounds worthwhile and interesting. The two together would nearly be a one-stop source for info on these systems. Do you plan to cover peripherals at all, or just the boxes themselves? Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From scott at saskatoon.com Wed Jun 25 17:48:18 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. In-Reply-To: <199706252140.OAA16017@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, PG Manney wrote: >> I am looking for >> TRS-80 (model I) > Do they say "model 1"? (I don't know these at all) No. They were originally known (and labelled) as the TRS-80 Microcomputer System. They later became known as the model 1 (Although I don't think they were ever labelled as such.) ttfn srw From BigLouS at aol.com Wed Jun 25 17:57:36 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Apple II (wasDumpster Diving) Message-ID: <970625185735_846150438@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-06-22 05:13:35 EDT,maynard@jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) wrote: > I have an opportunity for an original Apple II. Keyboard > works, the system prom boots, but unfortunately he lost the disk > controller. He still has the old full height 5 1/4" drive, however. This > thing is quite dirty, and a few keys will have to be cleaned carefully > with alchol, but it looks good. I'm curious to know if I need to find > anything other than the floppy controller. Didn't Microsoft Basic come on > a prom card? Or was that on the floppy controller card? Or was there at > one point a mixed controller/BASIC card? Any Apple disk II controller will work. Apple originally offered an Integer basic card (which contained integer basic in rom) for the Apple II+ series. This solution was replaced by the 16K language card in slot 0. As part of the boot up sequence DOS 3.3 would determine which basic was resident in rom and load the other basic into the 16K on the language card. There was no mixed controller/basic card. Language cards are plentiful and cheap so you should have no trouble finding one. Hope this helps. Lou From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jun 25 18:14:35 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > No. They were originally known (and labelled) as the TRS-80 Microcomputer > System. They later became known as the model 1 (Although I don't think > they were ever labelled as such.) > Were there two different Model 1's? I have seen pictures of Model 1's that don't look like my Model 1. (i.e. no numeric keypad) Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From rcini at msn.com Tue Jun 24 20:30:12 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: Phil: I also have a "Datamasher", which did work at one point. Now, I can't seem to get it to boot from the Diagnostic Diskette. I don't know if the diskette is bad, or if the floppy is bad. I don't know if it is possible, but would you be willing to make a copy of a known-bootable disk and send it to me?? I'll cover the cost of postage. I'd also like to get some sort of operations manuals, but that is probobly not in the cards at this point. Anyway, when I first got the 23 (also known as the 5322; from a school in Gerogia), I made contact with John Kelley, whose wife worked on the Datamaster project. Below is a copy of the message thread. I thought that you might be interested... ================= #: 517922 S0/General [H] 07-Dec-94 18:27:07 Sb: #517503-#IBM 5322 Datamstr? Fm: Richard Cini 70153,3367 To: John Kelley 73467,450 (X) John: I do have several questions: 1: An historical Perspective -- What was IBM's original purpose for that machine?? I read somewhere that the Datamaster was supposed to be IBM's first 'personal computer' (which flopped after a short time, and was replaced with the IBM PC). If that's true, how long did IBM make the 5322? The PC was introduced in 8/81, but my 5322 has manufacturing date tags in late-1982. What was it like working on a project like that? I've always been fascinated by the thoughts of people who basically created a multi-billion-dollar industry, the market climate, as well as comparing the capabilities of those machines to today's. In fact, I collect old, historically-significant computers. 2: Was there any real software available for that machine, or was it around for too short of a time to garner any significant market support? 3: What was its specifications? I didn't take the whole thing apart yet, I just cleaned it up and turned it on to see if it worked. (Yes, it works!) 4: Do you have any of its documentation original; maybe a system manual or a system diskette? How about schematics or a service manual? 5: Anything else that you may find useful. Thanks so much for your (and your wife's) help! Regards... Rich There are 2 Replies. #: 518568 S0/General [H] 09-Dec-94 08:51:43 Sb: #517922-IBM 5322 Datamstr? Fm: John Kelley 73467,450 To: Richard Cini 70153,3367 (X) Richard, I will convey your questions to the expert and get back to you. I can tell you this regarding creating a multi-billion-dollar industry: the folks doing the development work were too busy with heavy overtime in the trenches to have much opportunity for "big picture" thinking. IBM had a very structured software development process. Back to you later, - John K. #: 519705 S0/General [H] 12-Dec-94 08:52:04 Sb: #517922-IBM 5322 Datamstr? Fm: John L. Kelley 73467,450 To: Richard Cini 70153,3367 (X) Rich, Things were busy this weekend but I did get some info for you. The System 23 (Datamaster) was indeed the first move towards a PC. It was the first IBM product to use a non-IBM processor, namely the Intel 8085. Interestingly, this fact is what made the product revolutionary within IBM, and a threat to some. Apparently there was much conflict internally over the non-Blue processor. Some say that the only reason the product saw the light of day was that Frank Cary (then chairman of IBM) had gotten convinced by the backers of the system. Otherwise it would have died of attacks from the entrenched interests. It was actually IBM's first attempt at a PC. IBM provided business software: billing, accounts payable and receivable, general ledger, inventory, report-writer, etc. IBM provided telephone support through an Atlanta location to users of this software. The "real" PC came along right on its heels and so it never saw large volume, but thousands of users called the support lines, so it was in use. There may have been third party software as well. Some of the managers and developers who worked on this product also worked on the development of the real PC. The 23 apparently started shipping in 1980, and was still being sold when the IBM PC emerged. Big brother was then eclipsed by little brother. We don't seem to have much documentation or info on specs but something may turn up. I'll have to get back to you on that. To me, the interesting thing is that this "PC version 0.5" was almost killed by internal interests, just as the real PC was almost killed. Good luck with your collection! - John K. ======================= ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Mon, 23 Jun 97 11:23:18 BST From: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: <9705238670.AA867090681@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Last week - while I was on holiday on the Noprfolk Broads - someone (I forget who) asked if there had ever been a microcomputer that used EBCDIC. Anyone else out there have one of these? Know any more about it? {etc.} Philip. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jun 25 18:40:01 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2055050E3@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> The Model I originally shipped without a numeric keypad. To the right of the main keyboard was a rectangular keypad-size plaque reading "Radio Shack TRS-80 Micro Computer System". The numeric keypad was added to later models, and was available as a retrofit kit for around $50. With the numeric keypad installed, the nameplate was moved to a horizontal plaque above the keyboard. The TRS-80 Model I lineage includes: Model I, 4K, Level I BASIC - This is a 3-piece system with the computer in the keyboard. It includes the system keyboard/cpu, monitor, tape drive (actually a rebadged regular Radio Shack portable cassette deck with no modifications), and power supply brick. Level I BASIC is similar to Tiny BASIC. I still have my Level I BASIC reference manual. Model I, 16K, Level II BASIC - The 16K and Level II upgrades went together. 16K is the maximum Model I memory in the system unit (8x 4116 DRAMs). Level II BASIC is similar to Microsoft BASIC/80 with functions added for things like the TRS-80's 128x48 memory-mapped monochrome graphics. Level II also added a keyboard debounce routine--Level I machines were very difficult for typists. Other Upgrades: - Expansion Interface Matching silver color, acts as a monitor stand, connects to system unit via ribbon cable. Contains dual floppy controller (WD chip), sockets for an additional 32K (2 banks of 4116 DRAMs) for a system maximum of 48K, and a parallel connection. 16K ROM BASIC occupied the remainder of the address space. The expansion interface also contains a card bay for an RS-232 interface. - RS-232 interface board For expansion interface. - Floppy drives Single-sided single-density, approx. 90KB free space. - Lower case upgrade Provides lower case capability. - Numeric keypad retrofit As discussed above Known TRS-80 Model I problems: - Unreliable cassette interface. Radio Shack later released a modification that improved this somewhat. The best option is a third-party unit called the Data Dubber by Microperipheral Corporation (I worked there!) that went in between the system unit and cassette and squared the wave. - Wonky, unbuffered connection to Expansion Interface. This went through various modifications, and some cables you'll see have big buffer boxes in the middle. Later Expansion Interfaces had built-in buffering. Some bought third-party expansion interface clones from Lobo and others. Be very careful if you get an Expansion Interface without a cable. It might need the buffered cable, and it would be a pain to manufacture. - Bad data separator chip. The stock data separator was unreliable. Most people replaced theirs with a third-party improvement such as Percom's. - Unreliable connection for the Expansion Interface-mounted RS-232 board. This board slipped over vertical post connections and never made good contact. Most folks used third-party alternatives that worked off the cassette port. Kai > ---------- > From: Mr. Self Destruct > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 4:14 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. > > > On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > > No. They were originally known (and labelled) as the TRS-80 > Microcomputer > > System. They later became known as the model 1 (Although I don't > think > > they were ever labelled as such.) > > > > Were there two different Model 1's? I have seen pictures of Model 1's > that don't look like my Model 1. (i.e. no numeric keypad) > > Les > more@crazy.rutgers.edu > > > From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Wed Jun 25 18:57:06 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No, here's a clarification on the Model 1. Actually most original Model 1 computers, DIDn't have the keypad out to the right. Later versions did. There actually was a Model 1 Level 1 system that came out with 4k of memory. As time went on it evolved to the Level 2 system and commonly had 16 k with the expansion interface (which wasn't compatible with the Level 1 system). I also have a Model 1 that I put in a HEX keypad out to the right. CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > > No.. They were originally known (and labelled) as the TRS-80 Microcomputer > > System. They later became known as the model 1 (Although I don't think > > they were ever labelled as such.) > > > > Were there two different Model 1's? I have seen pictures of Model 1's > that don't look like my Model 1. (i.e. no numeric keypad) > > Les > more@crazy.rutgers.edu > > > > From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 25 13:07:57 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: CBM 900 Message-ID: Hello folks! What information is there on the CBM 900? I was mailed by someone who has a working one and is looking for more information on the machine. Any info would be lovely. Btw, his machine is apparently a prototype (it says so somewhere -- probably a sticker or something). Thanks, Alexios --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 25 20:18:26 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970625182204.685f9b3c@mail.crl.com> At 09:45 PM 6/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >> us, rather than simply because a machine is physically attractive, >> technically impressive, or financially successful. >Actually, some of the real dogs are just as fun and important. The Lisa, >for example, strikes out on all three (OK, two strikes and one foul) of the >above mentioned catagories, but is still a fascinating machine. Hey, waitaminnit.... The lisa is one of the best looking computers around! I think it's design is a classic! (Also, I think it was technically impressive -- I remember being very impressed upon seeing a demo in a little back room of the St. Francis hotel just before it was announced.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 25 20:18:44 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Convergent Technology Computers Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970625182217.685f943e@mail.crl.com> At 11:33 PM 6/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >And don't forget the Workslate from Convergent. It was the slickest laptop Anyone know where to find one of these? I'd sure like to add one to my collection! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 25 20:18:55 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970625182229.685fa178@mail.crl.com> At 08:38 AM 6/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >technical - foul - It seems that the Lisa should do better here, but I > really think the engineers blew it. The original OS is too innovative, > so much that the computer is nearly unuseable. I wouldn't think that "too innovative" would result in a lesser rating for "technical" aspects (at least in the realm of computer history/collecting; the "real" world is a different matter (see "success"...)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jun 25 20:19:00 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Computer Trivia Game Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970625182233.685f9786@mail.crl.com> At 11:03 PM 6/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >I'm a trivia freak, and computer trivia's fun. Old computers are great Anyone remember a trivial-pursuit-like Computer Trivia game? It was being touted at one of the last West Coast Computer Faires here in San Francisco. Anyone have a copy? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From william at ans.net Wed Jun 25 20:38:45 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970625182204.685f9b3c@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: <199706260138.AA08197@interlock.ans.net> > Hey, waitaminnit.... The lisa is one of the best looking computers around! > I think it's design is a classic! Unfortunately, it was a classic design at the time - a lot of people thought it looked like a dumb terminal (VT100). > (Also, I think it was technically > impressive -- I remember being very impressed upon seeing a demo in a little > back room of the St. Francis hotel just before it was announced.) >I wouldn't think that "too innovative" would result in a lesser rating for >"technical" aspects (at least in the realm of computer history/collecting; >the "real" world is a different matter (see "success"...)) That is why I call it a foul - they gave the ball a real smack, but into the side seats. Using the 68000 was a big step, far more powerful than what powered most desktop machines at the time. The problem is that Apple tried to do too much with the poor chip. As a system, it really is no good (I am going to catch at least one rotten peach for this). The engineers should have seen this and cut down the operating system. Question for any Alto owners - was the original Xerox GUI machine just as slow? William Donzelli william@ans.net From pcoad at crl.com Wed Jun 25 20:47:00 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2054F8839@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: Kai, Nice initial stab at some standards. I am a little concerned that this is a bit PC-centric. I would like to make sure that those of us on the fringe (not using Windows machines or Macs) don't get left out. This may mean lowering the standards to be a little more inclusive. Maybe these are all cross-platform standards, I don't know. Can any of the VMS/AmigaOS/TOS/whatnotOS people read and write all of these formats? I'm not trying to start a religious war. I want to be able to make use of and possibly contribute to the archive. On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Hey, figuring out standards like this is what I do. I recommend: > > JPEG for photo scans (brochures, ads, etc.) > - It's the Internet photo file format standard xv can be used to view these so Unix/X is covered. > > Compressed 1-bit, 300 dpi TIFF for schematics > - Almost everything supports TIFF, including tons of shareware and > Wang's free image processing add-on for Win95 > (http://www.microsoft.com/windows95/info/wang.htm) > - 1-bit means monochrome (not grayscale). Use JPEG for images. > - Images should be 300 dpi, 8 1/2" x 11", i.e. 2550 x 3300 (don't worry > about scanning white space, it takes no space at all when compressed) > I'm not so sure that "everything" supports TIFF. After a little looking, I couldn't even find a TIFF file to test with xv. Is there a reason that postscript cannot be used? Most of the schematics out there that I have seen have been postscript files. > TXT for text documents that don't use formatting > - 80-column with carriage returns please Text is good. > > RTF (Rich Text Format) for text documents that use formatting > - WordPerfect, Word, WordPad, etc. will save in this format > Is there anything under Unix which can read and/or write RTF? Why not use postscript for publishing the formatted documents? --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From thedm at sunflower.com Wed Jun 25 21:14:36 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff) Message-ID: <199706260212.VAA12360@challenge.sunflower.com> Whats wrong with plain old ascii text. ---------- > From: Paul E Coad > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff) > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 8:47 PM > > > Kai, > > Nice initial stab at some standards. I am a little concerned that this > is a bit PC-centric. I would like to make sure that those of us on the > fringe (not using Windows machines or Macs) don't get left out. This > may mean lowering the standards to be a little more inclusive. > > Maybe these are all cross-platform standards, I don't know. Can any of > the VMS/AmigaOS/TOS/whatnotOS people read and write all of these formats? > > I'm not trying to start a religious war. I want to be able to make use > of and possibly contribute to the archive. > > On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > Hey, figuring out standards like this is what I do. I recommend: > > > > JPEG for photo scans (brochures, ads, etc.) > > - It's the Internet photo file format standard > > xv can be used to view these so Unix/X is covered. > > > > > Compressed 1-bit, 300 dpi TIFF for schematics > > - Almost everything supports TIFF, including tons of shareware and > > Wang's free image processing add-on for Win95 > > (http://www.microsoft.com/windows95/info/wang.htm) > > - 1-bit means monochrome (not grayscale). Use JPEG for images. > > - Images should be 300 dpi, 8 1/2" x 11", i.e. 2550 x 3300 (don't worry > > about scanning white space, it takes no space at all when compressed) > > > > I'm not so sure that "everything" supports TIFF. After a little looking, > I couldn't even find a TIFF file to test with xv. > > Is there a reason that postscript cannot be used? Most of the schematics > out there that I have seen have been postscript files. > > > TXT for text documents that don't use formatting > > - 80-column with carriage returns please > > Text is good. > > > > > RTF (Rich Text Format) for text documents that use formatting > > - WordPerfect, Word, WordPad, etc. will save in this format > > > > Is there anything under Unix which can read and/or write RTF? > > Why not use postscript for publishing the formatted documents? > > --pec > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html > From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 25 21:59:00 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, PG Manney wrote: > >> I am looking for > >> TRS-80 (model I) > > Do they say "model 1"? (I don't know these at all) > No. They were originally known (and labelled) as the TRS-80 Microcomputer > System. They later became known as the model 1 (Although I don't think > they were ever labelled as such.) They were simply the TRS-80 Microcomputer System from 3Aug77 to 3Aug79, when the Model II was released. After that, they were never relabeled, they were discontinued at the end of 1980 when the FCC RFI rules kicked in -- but the Model III (successor to the Model One) had been announced on 3Aug80 along with the Color Computer and the Pocket Computer PC-1. (The Mod 1 and the Mod 2 had nothing in common except Z-80 processors -- the Mod 2 was a business machine from day one with its 512Kb SSDD 8" floppy expandable with up to three more in an external bay. Isaac Asimov wrote his last 150-200 books with one that's on display at the Science Fiction Shop in Greenwich Village -- I don't cross the Hudson often, but when I do I touch the machine, it's a shrine in its way -- I'd love to get permission to format a disk in its drive then bring it over to my own machine and boot it.) (And of course, that evolved into the Model 16 Xenix system, that started me on my career as a Unix sysadmin since I stopped being CSR for an RSCC). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe -- From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 25 22:06:27 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > No. They were originally known (and labelled) as the TRS-80 Microcomputer > > System. They later became known as the model 1 (Although I don't think > > they were ever labelled as such.) > Were there two different Model 1's? I have seen pictures of Model 1's > that don't look like my Model 1. (i.e. no numeric keypad) The last year or so, the keypad became standard. The machine had the option almost from day one to have the thing added, at least after Level II BASIC was brought out. The keypad, like the main keyboard, went from the original smooth-key surface to the textured surface that felt so much better and diddn't bounce. The keypad was _always_ standard on the Mod 3 -- I originally expected the Color Computer MultiPak interface to match the profile of the keyboard unit and provide a keypad as well as the expansion bus -- it annoyed me greatly when I was disappointed. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jun 25 23:09:47 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff) In-Reply-To: from "Paul E Coad" at Jun 25, 97 06:47:00 pm Message-ID: <9706260309.AA13442@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1893 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970625/3c9c1883/attachment-0001.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 25 22:14:14 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores Message-ID: <199706260314.AA07404@world.std.com> > > really think the engineers blew it. The original OS is too innovative, > > so much that the computer is nearly unuseable. > > I wouldn't think that "too innovative" would result in a lesser rating fo > "technical" aspects (at least in the realm of computer history/collecting > the "real" world is a different matter (see "success"...)) Lest we forget the LISA was the Prototype system for the mac! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jun 25 22:14:23 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) Message-ID: <199706260314.AA07496@world.std.com> > The Model I originally shipped without a numeric keypad. To the right Correct. > of the main keyboard was a rectangular keypad-size plaque reading "Radio > Shack TRS-80 Micro Computer System". The numeric keypad was added to > later models, and was available as a retrofit kit for around $50. With > the numeric keypad installed, the nameplate was moved to a horizontal > plaque above the keyboard. Also correct. > > The TRS-80 Model I lineage includes: > > Model I, 4K, Level I BASIC > - This is a 3-piece system with the computer in the keyboard. It > includes the system keyboard/cpu, monitor, tape drive (actually a > rebadged regular Radio Shack portable cassette deck with no > modifications), and power supply brick. Level I BASIC is similar to > Tiny BASIC. I still have my Level I BASIC reference manual. The Basic was an 4k microsoft basic with floating point and simple arrays but no alphanumeric operators or transcendental functions. Tiny basic was an integer language of less than 4k. > Model I, 16K, Level II BASIC > - The 16K and Level II upgrades went together. 16K is the maximum Model > I memory in the system unit (8x 4116 DRAMs). Level II BASIC is similar wrong. Either could be installed alone. Generally LII with 4k was pretty cramped. FYI: the LII romset was only 12k. > to Microsoft BASIC/80 with functions added for things like the TRS-80's > 128x48 memory-mapped monochrome graphics. It was MS12k basic with TRS extensions (graphics). >Level II also added a > keyboard debounce routine--Level I machines were very difficult for > typists. The key bounce was a bug in the original 4k software, it didn't wait long enough. There was a cassette that when loaded fixed it. Me I'd clean the key contacts with a swab and some contact cleaner and get the same result. > - Expansion Interface > Matching silver color, acts as a monitor stand, connects to system unit > via ribbon cable. Contains dual floppy controller (WD chip), sockets > for an additional 32K (2 banks of 4116 DRAMs) for a system maximum of > 48K, and a parallel connection. 16K ROM BASIC occupied the remainder of > the address space. The expansion interface also contains a card bay for > an RS-232 interface. The bottom 16k was 12k of rom (LII basic) 1k of ram for video and keyboard mapped in to memory space. Some of the 4k space for the video and keyboard was wasted due to partial decode. The upside was since the keyboard was scanned by the cpu so alternate shift and character sets were easy to do. The down side is no matter how you tried, keyboard type ahead was impossible, the keyboard could not interrupt the CPU. > - RS-232 interface board > For expansion interface. The surface connector used was very cranky. > - Floppy drives > Single-sided single-density, approx. 90KB free space. The design used the 1771 internal data seperator which was not very tolerent of drive spped errors or data jitter. > - Lower case upgrade > Provides lower case capability. Way late in the game the "field mod" had been around over a year before tandy did it. > - Numeric keypad retrofit > As discussed above Popular item! > Known TRS-80 Model I problems: > > - Unreliable cassette interface. Radio Shack later released a > modification that improved this somewhat. The best option is a > third-party unit called the Data Dubber by Microperipheral Corporation > (I worked there!) that went in between the system unit and cassette and > squared the wave. There were two mods one largely marginal, the later one was very effective. I had a mod I did that worked very well and was far simpler. > - Wonky, unbuffered connection to Expansion Interface. This went > through various modifications, and some cables you'll see have big > buffer boxes in the middle. Later Expansion Interfaces had built-in > buffering. Some bought third-party expansion interface clones from Lobo > and others. Be very careful if you get an Expansion Interface without a > cable. It might need the buffered cable, and it would be a pain to > manufacture. The first version with the unbuffered or buffered cable was a junk design. the later one with local ras/cas timing was far better. > - Bad data separator chip. The stock data separator was unreliable. > Most people replaced theirs with a third-party improvement such as > Percom's. The stock circuit depended on the 1771 chips internal seperator, Even WD the chipmaker said don't do it! > - Unreliable connection for the Expansion Interface-mounted RS-232 > board. This board slipped over vertical post connections and never made > good contact. Most folks used third-party alternatives that worked off > the cassette port. Being there at the begining was half the fun. Allison From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jun 25 22:24:18 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: CBM 900 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > Hello folks! > > What information is there on the CBM 900? I was mailed by someone who has > a working one and is looking for more information on the machine. Any info > would be lovely. Btw, his machine is apparently a prototype (it says so > somewhere -- probably a sticker or something). > > Thanks, > Alexios Wasn't that one a Commodore attempt at a Unix machine? Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jun 25 22:33:27 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff) In-Reply-To: <9706260309.AA13442@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > RTF (Rich Text Format) for text documents that use formatting > > > - WordPerfect, Word, WordPad, etc. will save in this format > > > > Is there anything under Unix which can read and/or write RTF? > > No freeware that I know of. There may be some commercial products. > Or a more universal mark-up language which is also readable in ASCII? > (i.e. well-written HTML.) From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Wed Jun 25 22:34:27 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff) Message-ID: <970625223427.2040c427@wartburg.edu> >> Compressed 1-bit, 300 dpi TIFF for schematics >> - Almost everything supports TIFF, including tons of shareware and [technical stuff snipped] >I'm not so sure that "everything" supports TIFF. After a little looking, >I couldn't even find a TIFF file to test with xv. Is there anything for either OpenVMS/Alpha (No DEC/X-windows) or the Apple IIGS that can read TIFF? >> RTF (Rich Text Format) for text documents that use formatting >> - WordPerfect, Word, WordPad, etc. will save in this format How about HTML? That would likely be more readable for my shell account (though not all formatting would be displayed in Lynx). I suppose I could walk over to the computer lab and use a Mac or a PC if I *had* to. :) -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From gram at cnct.com Wed Jun 25 23:07:56 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2055050E3@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > The Model I originally shipped without a numeric keypad. To the right > of the main keyboard was a rectangular keypad-size plaque reading "Radio > Shack TRS-80 Micro Computer System". The numeric keypad was added to > later models, and was available as a retrofit kit for around $50. With > the numeric keypad installed, the nameplate was moved to a horizontal > plaque above the keyboard. > The TRS-80 Model I lineage includes: > Model I, 4K, Level I BASIC > - This is a 3-piece system with the computer in the keyboard. It > includes the system keyboard/cpu, monitor, tape drive (actually a > rebadged regular Radio Shack portable cassette deck with no > modifications), and power supply brick. Level I BASIC is similar to > Tiny BASIC. I still have my Level I BASIC reference manual. Level I BASIC _was_ Tiny BASIC. > Model I, 16K, Level II BASIC > - The 16K and Level II upgrades went together. 16K is the maximum Model They wre available separately -- but a 4k Level II machine only left about 1800 bytes of free RAM -- not a pretty sight (And yes, I've seen it!) > I memory in the system unit (8x 4116 DRAMs). Level II BASIC is similar > to Microsoft BASIC/80 with functions added for things like the TRS-80's > 128x48 memory-mapped monochrome graphics. Level II also added a Amazing, though, how Big Five could use those graphics for the most amazing video games (and produce sound from the cassette port to match) -- it took the PC a couple of years to match it. > keyboard debounce routine--Level I machines were very difficult for > typists. Actually, the keybounce problem existed with Level II -- the keybounce fix was a tape to read originally into a Level II box -- there was never a fix for Level I (my own system the keybounce always came back -- I never used the tape, it ate a K of RAM I needed -- when I made the mistake of turning the keyboard upside down and dumping out the cigarette ashes , while they were there, apparently it smoothed the keyswitch operation adequately). There was a second release of Level II BASIC that included the debouncer in the 12K ROM. > Other Upgrades: > > - Expansion Interface > Matching silver color, acts as a monitor stand, connects to system unit > via ribbon cable. Contains dual floppy controller (WD chip), sockets > for an additional 32K (2 banks of 4116 DRAMs) for a system maximum of > 48K, and a parallel connection. 16K ROM BASIC occupied the remainder of > the address space. The expansion interface also contains a card bay for > an RS-232 interface. Dennis Kitsz did once publish an upgrade to 48k that could be done in a keyboard without the EI. I have no idea how many others built it, but I never had a problem with the alleged memory speed problems from the EI cable. Jerry Pournelle's gripes are another story. > - RS-232 interface board > For expansion interface. Worked better than an Apple serial card from the era. > - Floppy drives > Single-sided single-density, approx. 90KB free space. Geez, I remember spending $39.95 for my first 10-pack of SSSD 35-track disks. Amazingly, I years later formatted one of them in a Tandy 2000 DSQD drive (call it five years later) with full verify and got two bad tracks. Yeah, I should have hung onto the disk, put some data onto it, and tried to read that data a year later. But I was about to throw away the disk anyway, since it had shown errors on a Model 3. > - Lower case upgrade > Provides lower case capability. I _still_ don't understand that trade-off between cost and utility. The decision makers were gone before I joined the company in '80. > Known TRS-80 Model I problems: > > - Unreliable cassette interface. Radio Shack later released a > modification that improved this somewhat. The best option is a > third-party unit called the Data Dubber by Microperipheral Corporation > (I worked there!) that went in between the system unit and cassette and > squared the wave. It was more reliable than the cassette interfaces for the Apple or the Pet ot the Atari. _All_ cassette interfaces are unreliable. How many people used the cassette interface on an Apple for more than a week before they gave up and got a disk drive? How many people used the cassette interface on the Atari 400/800 for more than a day? Some TRS-80 users never felt the need: it was not as unreliable as most of the competition. Many Color Computer users noticed how much faster their cassette transfers were than Commodore disk drives that they didn't upgrade until OS-9 showed up and they _really_ needed disk drives. > - Wonky, unbuffered connection to Expansion Interface. This went > through various modifications, and some cables you'll see have big > buffer boxes in the middle. Later Expansion Interfaces had built-in > buffering. Some bought third-party expansion interface clones from Lobo > and others. Be very careful if you get an Expansion Interface without a > cable. It might need the buffered cable, and it would be a pain to > manufacture. Can't make excuses for this technically myself. That unbuffered cable carrying RAM signals was flat-out stupid. But remember that when the first machines were designed that the company (always retail driven) had _no_ idea that the damned things would sell, it was an experiment. Hell, Apple and Commodore had been advertising all year, and hadn't delivered more than a few eval and review units when Tandy announced the TRS-80 Microcomputer System on 3 Aug 77 with 5,000 units already in the warehouses -- idea was, since they didn't know if it would work, they had 5,000 stores -- if the silly things didn't move they'd figure out a way to use them. > - Bad data separator chip. The stock data separator was unreliable. > Most people replaced theirs with a third-party improvement such as > Percom's. The one Percom used came out after the design was final. > - Unreliable connection for the Expansion Interface-mounted RS-232 > board. This board slipped over vertical post connections and never made > good contact. Most folks used third-party alternatives that worked off > the cassette port. _Nothing_ was reliable in the Expansion Interface, ever. Not even the clock. And the Model III came out about the time most of the problems were solvable. Many companies phase out upgrades of systems that have been superceded -- when's the last time MicroSlough actually fixed one of the many problems that still exist in Windows 3.1? -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gmast at oboe.aix.calpoly.edu Thu Jun 26 00:02:37 1997 From: gmast at oboe.aix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: FS: Books, Books, Books! Message-ID: <33B1F7ED.32EC@oboe.calpoly.edu> I'm sorting through the boxes of "stuff" I have accumulated and I've saved a pile of books you folks might be interested in. I am selling them in lots because I don't have time to pack up and mail them out individually. Besides they're going cheap! Shipping via USPS Book Rate. Commodore Lot: The Manager - Commodore 64 C64 User's Manual Kids and the Commodore 64 Commodore 64 Favorite Programs Explained Re Run - Reprinted Articles from Jan to June 1984 - Run Magazine VIC 1541 User's Maanual More than 32 Basic Programs for the C64 Commodore 64 User's Handbook Commodore 64 Programmer's Reference Guide Turte Graphics II Instruction Manual Price $5, Shipping $4.25 Apple Lot: Critic's Guide to Software for Apple and Compatible Computers Apple II Super Serial Card Manual Apple II 80-Column Text Card Manual Extended 80-Column Text Card Supplement Apple II The DOS Manual Applesoft II Basic Programming Reference Manual Price $5, Shipping $4.25 Other Lot: 10 Starter Programs from Family Computing (Apple, Atari, etc, 1983) 1986 Radio Shack Software Reference and Tandy Computer Guide A Bit of Basic (Apple II, TRS-80) Price $2.75, Shipping $2.25 From gmast at oboe.aix.calpoly.edu Thu Jun 26 00:18:18 1997 From: gmast at oboe.aix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: FS: More cheap C= stuff, GEOS, Games Message-ID: <33B1FB9A.9DE@oboe.calpoly.edu> Sorry, I for got to aadd these to my last message. Also found some software. I've never used this stuff so it's an as-is deal. Geos Lot: Looks like a set of GEOS 2.0 and 1.2 Manuals for 1.2 and 2.0 Deskpak Plus (six applications for GEOS) Deskpak Manual 25 Blank 5-1/4 disks Price $5, Shipping $2.75 C-64 Game/Software Lot: Zork I or C64 with Manual Flight Simulator II in box w/manual AwardWare Graphics Starcross game w/manual Business Indoor Sports w/manual Into the Eagles Nest (WWII) Box of 12 misc disks w/some s/w Price $5, Shipping $2.75 From walgen at do.isst.fhg.de Fri Jun 27 00:26:23 1997 From: walgen at do.isst.fhg.de (Stefan Walgenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: CBM 900 Message-ID: <01BC8202.A90F29E0@dhcp9.do.isst.fhg.de> ---------- From: Alexios Chouchoulas[SMTP:alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk] Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 3:20 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: CBM 900 > What information is there on the CBM 900? I was mailed by someone who has > a working one and is looking for more information on the machine. What do you need? I have the Coherent-Disk the Manual and some technical diagramms for the C900. > Any info > would be lovely. Btw, his machine is apparently a prototype (it says so > somewhere -- probably a sticker or something). Yes ist is a prototype. According to Jim Brains "cbmmodel": C900 Series: Prototype UNIX System, dropped after Amiga acquisition Zilog Z8000 CPU, Runs Coherent 0.7.3, UNIX 7 clone, Built-In Floppy, HD, IEEE-488. MFM Disk Controller, 1MB 9600 bps, 500 units made. Came in two versions. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2583 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970627/675e4a62/attachment-0001.bin From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Jun 26 01:03:35 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) In-Reply-To: Kai Kaltenbach's message of Wed, 25 Jun 1997 16:40:01 -0700 References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2055050E3@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199706260603.XAA08301@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Kai Kaltenbach writes: > Other Upgrades: You left out the TRS-80 Screen Printer, a widget that plugs into the connector otherwise used for the Expansion Interface. Hit the switch on the front of the printer, and it ejects a few inches of silvery electrostatic paper with the image on your screen zapped dark on it. My understanding is that it grabs the image right out of the screen memory. Somewhere I have some pages printed by one of these. As I recall they didn't last long as a product. I think I have two Radio Shack microcomputer catalogs from 1978 (one white/black/silver, one later one in full color) and the screen printer is only shown in the earlier catalog, but both are loaned out to someone who wanted to scan some pictures from them. (Hey Javier, are you reading this?) -Frank McConnell From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 26 08:41:50 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic In-Reply-To: <199706252140.OAA22215@mx3.u.washington.edu>; from "PG Manney" at Jun 25, 97 5:28 pm Message-ID: <199706260741.9349@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > > > > Remember it? If it's what I am thinking of, I was doing it a couple > of > > > > weeks ago. You are talking about a 'Coconut', right (explanation of > that > > > > codename also on request - it has _nothing_ to do with the Tandy > CoCo). > > > > Nowadays I do something similar. I create a GROB with the right bit > > > > patterns, use the SystemRPL 'Get' routine to remove the header, and > thus > > > > create new objects. > > No, not quite. The HP-41C used 2, 3 or 4 bytes to create the program steps. Absolutely. We are talking about the same thing. 'Coconut' was the HP code name for the HP41C (and 'Halfnut' was the later model using the smaller CPU board AFAIK). > By forcing apart the bytes and substituting new ones, new ("synthetic") > opcodes could be created. The famous 'byte grabber'.... > These ranged from creating new characters to being able to access areas of > memory. > Ah, the heady days of discovery! Mother HP wouldn't officially help, but > there was plenty of behind-the-scenes help. Of course if you were a real hacker you had an M-code box that let you write the native 10 bit (?) instructions for the 41's CPU (I forget what it's called). The trick with a Grob is a 48 series trick for creating objects (code objects, systemRPL prgrams, Arrays of things other than real/complex, etc) directly on the machine without needing any other software or a PC to download them from. It's the logical replacement of synthetic programming on the more recent machines. > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 26 03:37:24 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) In-Reply-To: <199706260603.XAA08301@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 25 Jun 1997, Frank McConnell wrote: > You left out the TRS-80 Screen Printer, a widget that plugs into the > connector otherwise used for the Expansion Interface. Hit the switch > on the front of the printer, and it ejects a few inches of silvery > electrostatic paper with the image on your screen zapped dark on it. > My understanding is that it grabs the image right out of the screen > memory. Yes, the screen printer wouldn't work with an EI. It needed full unbuffered access to video RAM, and it read it off the bus. It didn't screw anything up as I recall, it worked fine with Level I or II BASIC but naturally not with Disk BASIC. Try to imagine what it was like to try getting a program listing from the damned thing. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 26 06:22:52 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:38 2005 Subject: CBM 900 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > Wasn't that one a Commodore attempt at a Unix machine? Yes, but I don't know anything else about it, except for the fact that it used a 16bit Zilog CPU. Would a prototype of such a machine be a real find? Alexios --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From bwit at pobox.com Thu Jun 26 05:48:35 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) Message-ID: <01BC81FE.2A0B6F40@ppp-151-164-37-139.rcsntx.swbell.net> >>modifications), and power supply brick. Level I BASIC is similar to >> Tiny BASIC. I still have my Level I BASIC reference manual. >The Basic was an 4k microsoft basic with floating point and simple >arrays but no alphanumeric operators or transcendental functions. >Tiny basic was an integer language of less than 4k. IIRC Level I Basic was floating point but it was not a Microsoft product. Only Level II Basic came from Microsoft. In fact the source for Level I Basic was later released and I think I have a copy of it in storage somewhere. Regards, Bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1661 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970626/67e1a71d/attachment-0001.bin From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jun 26 08:43:19 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Composite output Message-ID: <199706261339.IAA17112@challenge.sunflower.com> Got a simple question. God I hope it's simple and does not turn out to be an advocacy question. Im planning my "museum" setup. I have alot of machines that were simply designed only to work on Color TV's. Is it possible to just tap the input's before they get to the RF modulator {built in} and use a composite monitor, of which I have dozens? Otherwise I've got to buy, scrounge, find, about 9 color tv's. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 26 14:45:58 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Composite output In-Reply-To: <199706261339.IAA17112@challenge.sunflower.com>; from "Bill Girnius" at Jun 26, 97 8:43 am Message-ID: <199706261345.17802@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Got a simple question. God I hope it's simple and does not turn out to be > an advocacy question. Im planning my "museum" setup. I have alot of > machines that were simply designed only to work on Color TV's. Is it > possible to just tap the input's before they get to the RF modulator {built > in} and use a composite monitor, of which I have dozens? Otherwise I've > got to buy, scrounge, find, about 9 color tv's. In general, yes you can. I did it on my (UK, so PAL) Tandy CoCo 2 for many years. Sometimes you need a 1 or 2 transistor video amplifier, and it often helps to turn off the termination switch (labelled '75 Ohm'?) at the monitor - the video stage that drives the modulator will often not drive a 75 Ohm load (and if you keep the cables short reflections are not a real problem). Give it a go. You're unlikely to damage anything. > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 26 09:22:04 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) Message-ID: <199706261422.AA20415@world.std.com> > > modifications), and power supply brick. Level I BASIC is similar to > > Tiny BASIC. I still have my Level I BASIC reference manual. > > Level I BASIC _was_ Tiny BASIC. NO IT WAS NOT. LEVEL-I basic was the same basic sold by gates for the altair just a later revision level. IT was little, it ws limited but to did have floating point math and a few otehr things not found in tiny basics of the time. Tiny BASIC was one of several basics that were integer math only and far more limited and generally smaller too. Once upon a time there were three basics from MS, 4k, 8k, 12k extended, disk (~23k), and compiled(bascom). L1 was 4k and LII was the 12k extended with mods. > Dennis Kitsz did once publish an upgrade to 48k that could be done in a > keyboard without the EI. I have no idea how many others built it, but I > never had a problem with the alleged memory speed problems from the EI > cable. Jerry Pournelle's gripes are another story. It was never memory speed it was ras/mux/cas timing that was marginal. after about late 79 the design was substantually changed to derive the signals loacally in the EI. stacking 32k more in the keyboard was a trivial task. IF you didn't mind staking the chips three high and skywiring the cas/ lines for the added chips to a decoder. It did work well. > > - RS-232 interface board > For expansion interface. > > Worked better than an Apple serial card from the era. The RS card worked excellent if the connector did! > I _still_ don't understand that trade-off between cost and utility. The > decision makers were gone before I joined the company in '80. INthe trs 80 case some of it was the lack of decision making by other than marketing/sales types. I was there from 74-79 and helped launch and fix the trs80 > > It was more reliable than the cassette interfaces for the Apple or the Pe > ot the Atari. _All_ cassette interfaces are unreliable. How many people Generally speaking all audio cassette interfaces were poor. Some were poorer than others. I'd tried digital (saturation recording) using a modified trs80(all the analog gone) and it was absolutely reliable. The recorder electronics were no more complicated than athe audio just different. > more than a few eval and review units when Tandy announced the TRS-80 > Microcomputer System on 3 Aug 77 with 5,000 units already in the > warehouses -- idea was, since they didn't know if it would work, they had > 5,000 stores -- if the silly things didn't move they'd figure out a way The first year of sales exceeded 250,000! > The one Percom used came out after the design was final. The percom design existed at least a year before the design was started. It was straight out of the wd1771 data sheet! From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 26 09:22:19 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) Message-ID: <199706261422.AA20587@world.std.com> > Level I BASIC was _NOT_ a Microsoft BASIC. It was a fairly straight > rendition of Tiny BASIC. Unless I've been lied to for many years. The > Tiny BASIC published in Interface Age did have floating point, though not > much precision. You were lied to. ;-) I have the IA articles for TB and TBX along with DDJ and BYTE. tiny basic was integer. There were several small basics that fit in 4k that were not like L1 (different mix of capability) or were MS 4k clones. Technically it was MS4k. I'd used the altair version and the TRS80 and they were Identical! > The keybounce was a bug in the hardware. Mine always came back when I > turned the keyboard upside down and dumped out a few months worth of > cigarette ashes. A week later the problem would go away. (Proof that I > didn't grow up in a clean-room computer environment -- I was 23 and out > of the USAF when I got that Mod I in '78). Wrong. I was doing systems design for a terminal company while at RS(i was not in sales). That terminal company used the exact same keyboard. Switches bounce, debounce is simple you detect closure wait a few MS and verify closure if the verify fails the switc is open. The 4k basic didn't wait long enough but, beniding the contacts to change their dynamics was often enough. The verification if this is I clocked off a pulse gen and at 1.15mhz the bounce would go away! The delay rountine was in software so slowing the cpu was enough to make the dely longer and it would behave. some of the speed mods made it worsse unless LII was in there. I still have my trs80 hackboard (much modified and mangled) that I used to test various and sundry ideas. Of course when Tandy has launched the trs80 I'd had my altair up and running for some time with a TTY, ct1024 (64x16 upper only) and PR40 printer for a while. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 26 10:00:15 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.) Message-ID: <199706261500.AA27046@world.std.com> > >The Basic was an 4k microsoft basic with floating point and simple = > >arrays but no alphanumeric operators or transcendental functions. > =20 > >Tiny basic was an integer language of less than 4k. =20 > > IIRC Level I Basic was floating point but it was not a Microsoft = > product. Only Level II Basic came from Microsoft. In fact the source = > for Level I Basic was later released and I think I have a copy of it in = > storage somewhere. I pulled my notebooks from 76/77/78 and yes RS called it Tiny but, is was not. Tiny basic was the generic name given to ALL integer basics. At the time the only source available basic that was floating point was LLLbasic (lawence livermore labs) which as 8080 code fit in 5k of rom. I suspected at the time it could be a z80 recode for space, no match. Of the tiny basics palo alto TB (1976) was well known and fit in 2k of rom without IO drivers. It didn't match L1. My files indicate that the basic was most closely that of MITS altair basic 4k (pre- MS) by gates/allen. Techically is was not MS. It was at least looking at my notebook significantly identical. That particular basic was an early lost one and after about 79-80 its not seen in MSbasic docs. I suspect it was due to it being pre MS and having allens hand in it. FYI mits 4k basic was small enough to fit in 4k of ram and still hold the video and keyboard drivers. Allison From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jun 26 10:39:48 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: atari800xl Message-ID: <199706261536.KAA24878@challenge.sunflower.com> anyone know the video pinouts so I can build a cable for this? i just learned it has a video output. From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jun 26 10:50:42 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: atari800xl FOUND it! Message-ID: <199706261547.KAA25412@challenge.sunflower.com> Monitor Jack (all but 400, North American 600XL, XE Game System): 3 1 5 4 2 1. Composite Luminance (not on North American 600XL's) 2. Ground 3. Audio Output 4. Composite Video 5. Composite Chroma (not on 800XL,1200XL; grounded on 600XL) ---------- > From: Bill Girnius > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: atari800xl > Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 10:39 AM > > anyone know the video pinouts so I can build a cable for this? i just > learned it has a video output. From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 26 11:25:10 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970626092848.3f077494@MAIL.CRL.COM> At 06:47 PM 6/25/97 -0700, you wrote: >I'm not so sure that "everything" supports TIFF. After a little looking, >I couldn't even find a TIFF file to test with xv. And my experience has been that TIFF is not always the same, especially Mac vs. PC. >Is there a reason that postscript cannot be used? Most of the schematics >out there that I have seen have been postscript files. [...] >Why not use postscript for publishing the formatted documents? Postscript is fine for Macs, not so great for PC's, and probably unusable for most older (pre-pc) machines. I'm not so worried about the images, but the formatted text should be kept readable. I'm not super-familiar with RTF, but isn't it just tags (like HTML)? If so, than a "reader"(?) could be written, even for CP/M or TRS-DOS or whatever... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From starling at umr.edu Thu Jun 26 13:43:24 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706260138.AA08197@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Jun 25, 97 09:38:45 pm Message-ID: <199706261843.NAA04446@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > Unfortunately, it was a classic design at the time - a lot of people > thought it looked like a dumb terminal (VT100). If you think about it, though, the case design is quite nice for sitting on a desktop. It's footprint is at least half that of an IBM PC, if you discount the dedicated space required for the mouse. Also I think I read somewhere that they purposefully designed it to look like a "business-like" dumb terminal to get around the "hobbyist/home computer" reputation of the Apple IIs. I'd also guess that secretaries (who the machine was designed for) would feel more comfortable with a new system if it looked like their old one. > That is why I call it a foul - they gave the ball a real smack, but into > the side seats. Using the 68000 was a big step, far more powerful than > what powered most desktop machines at the time. The problem is that Apple > tried to do too much with the poor chip. As a system, it really is no > good (I am going to catch at least one rotten peach for this). The > engineers should have seen this and cut down the operating system. Actually, I've always felt that they didn't do ENOUGH with the 68000. They clocked the poor thing at 5Mhz... it could have happily taken 8, but the story goes that at the time they were designing the Lisa, the 68000 wasn't out yet. So Motorola gave them a 68000 "emulator" which was a box with a bunch of discrete components in it that did effectively what the chip would do... but it only ran at 5Mhz. In using my own Lisa, it really isn't that sluggish. Especially if you compare it to a Mac 128 or 512. The filesystem on the Lisa is VERY advanced and allows for recovery from errors that'd hork other filesystems. It has memory protection which keeps it from being as flakey as the early Macs (and later Macs :), and it truely multitasks instead of just lame task-switching like it's Macintosh cousin. The only other machine to squeeze as much out of a 68K would have to be the Amiga 1000 & 500. And it had helper processors to help keep meanial things like graphics, sound and disk access from bothering the CPU. The one thing that the Mac has over the Lisa, however, is SOUND. The Lisa's sound system is about the same as the Apple II. Beep, Boop. BTW, Allison, the Lisa wasn't actually a PROTOTYPE for the Mac. Rather it was the sister machine to the Mac. The Lisa and Mac projects stemmed from the same research, with the Mac project splitting off from the Lisa project shortly after its inseption. I'm not sure of all the politics behind the separate projects but apparantly they had quite a bit of competition between the two. The Lisa project was supposedly comprised of mostly older guys that'd worked for HP, IBM and other "old school" companies and did things the "old school" way. The Macintosh project was allegedly new guys that weren't steeped in the old traditions of big machines and just did things less methodicly. This is evident if you take appart a Lisa and a Mac side by side. The Lisa has a motherboard with CPU on daughterboard design, like an old mini or something... nice and modular with thumbscrews... no screwdrivers needed. Steve Jobs supposedly supported the Lisa throughout this battle, naming the machine after his daughter (it also stood for something... Logically Integrated System... Uhhh???). He felt it was the better machine with better software and would prevail over the Mac and the IBM PC. However, when things started looking bad for her, he jumped ship and started pushing the Mac. Overall, it was the Lisa's pricetag that is most responsible for its demise, I think. At $10,000, it was considerably more expensive than a similarly configured (1M RAM, 10M HD) IBM PC, which was probably $5,000-8,000. However, the Lisa still lives on. Every time you pull down a window you're using Lisa technology. Lisa was also the first to have an integrated office suite which could cut-n-paste between apps. Xerox provided much of the inspiration, but Lisa polished the GUI into a usable system. It's really quite impressive for a machine designed 78-81 and released in 82. > Question for any Alto owners - was the original Xerox GUI machine just as > slow? Saw one on TV once, but I'm not sure what the Alto's processor was. But as I recall, it's GUI wasn't as flashy. Not a rotten peach... but I had to say a few words about my favorite machine. My girlfriend Holly was quite upset when I started calling her Lisa after purchasing my Lisa 2/5. But if anyone has a working Lisa Lite board(floppy controller), I'm in the market for one. :) *ling From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 26 19:56:34 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706261843.NAA04446@saucer.cc.umr.edu>; from "starling@umr.edu" at Jun 26, 97 1:43 pm Message-ID: <199706261856.17667@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> [...] > In using my own Lisa, it really isn't that sluggish. Especially if you > compare it to a Mac 128 or 512. The filesystem on the Lisa is VERY > advanced and allows for recovery from errors that'd hork other > filesystems. It has memory protection which keeps it from being as What did they do in that filesystem? I am curious because the PERQ, which was another machine that came from the Xerox PARC work also had a very interesting filesystem under POS (the first OS that was written for it). In particular : Files are linked lists of blocks. The sector header of each sector on the hard disk contains pointers to the previous and next blocks in the file, along with some other info that I've forgotten Files may be sparse - the fact that block n exists does not mean that block n-1 does Block 0 of each file (I think, maybe block -1) contains the 'file descriptor' - bascially an i-node. Negative block numbers are the file allocation map. You can use this to quickly find any block in the file without following the links. Directories are sparse files. When you access a file in a directory, the filename is hashed in some way (the algorithm is not in the manual), and the hash value is used as the first directory block to look in. If the 'file descriptor' gets mangled it can be recreated from the header pointers. If the header pointers get mangled they can be recreated from the file descriptor. Ditto about other important structures on the disk - loss of any single one is generally recoverable using standard utilities. Were any of those things done on the Lisa? > *ling -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From spc at armigeron.com Thu Jun 26 14:03:32 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706261843.NAA04446@saucer.cc.umr.edu> from "starling@umr.edu" at Jun 26, 97 01:43:24 pm Message-ID: <199706261903.PAA29967@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great starling@umr.edu once stated: > > BTW, Allison, the Lisa wasn't actually a PROTOTYPE for the Mac. Rather it > was the sister machine to the Mac. The Lisa and Mac projects stemmed from > the same research, with the Mac project splitting off from the Lisa > project shortly after its inseption. I'm not sure of all the politics > behind the separate projects but apparantly they had quite a bit of > competition between the two. The Lisa project was supposedly comprised of > mostly older guys that'd worked for HP, IBM and other "old school" > companies and did things the "old school" way. The Macintosh project was > allegedly new guys that weren't steeped in the old traditions of big > machines and just did things less methodicly. This is evident if you take > appart a Lisa and a Mac side by side. The Lisa has a motherboard with CPU > on daughterboard design, like an old mini or something... nice and modular > with thumbscrews... no screwdrivers needed. Steve Jobs supposedly > supported the Lisa throughout this battle, naming the machine after his > daughter (it also stood for something... Logically Integrated System... > Uhhh???). He felt it was the better machine with better software and > would prevail over the Mac and the IBM PC. However, when things started > looking bad for her, he jumped ship and started pushing the Mac. The LISA was the computer designed after Apple had a peek at Xerox PARC. I'm not sure who ran the department, but I think it may have been Jobs, trying to work on the Apple ][ replacement. Jobs has always denied the machine being named after his (illegidament) daughter (although it is rumored that he did anyway). The Macintosh was originally the brainchild of Jef Raskin and the initial design was an information appliance based originally on the 6809 (my personal favorite 8-bit CPU) and text based. But, politics being what they are, Jobs was more or less forced from the day to day operations of running the company, as Mike Markula felt that what Apple didn't need was a loose Jobs running around [1]. So, to keep Jobs out of the way, Markula took the Macintosh from Raskin and gave the project to Jobs, who then wanted to make an information appliance with a GUI, using the LISA GUI/OS as a base. Raskin left shortly thereafter (around '81 or '82) to do his own thing, while Jobs bullied his crew to make the Macintosh into what we know and love today. When introduced, it was intended that Macintosh development would be done on a LISA, as it was a much more capable machine, but the price killed it. Now, speaking of Jef Raskin, he later went on to make the Swyftcard for the Apple ][. I've heard the description and ever since, I've been wanting to either obtain a working Apple ][ with a Swyftcard (plus the documentation) or failing that, just the documentation alone would be of interest to me. Has anyone here ever worked with the Swyftcard? I'd like more information about it. -spc (Wish more companies did documentation like Raskin did ... ) [1] From what I've read, Jobs is an egotistical bully who would go around, talking about other employees behind their back, and even go up to an employee and call their work "shit" and that "he could do better". Not the type of person I would work for. He would rub people the wrong way, and Markula felt it would be better for the company (not to mention morale) if Jobs wasn't around. Not that I blame Markula any. From starling at umr.edu Thu Jun 26 15:31:52 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Lisa's Filesystem... In-Reply-To: <199706261856.17667@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 26, 97 07:56:34 pm Message-ID: <199706262031.PAA28920@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > > What did they do in that filesystem? > I've always wondered myself. :) I've only been able to find general information about the filesystem. I know that the filenames that the user used weren't the actual filenames, but just "tags" that referenced the actual filename (presumably some sort of serial number). This allowed the user to make a copy of a file and have the copy retain the same name as the original. For some reason, this seemed more "logical" and in keeping with the desktop metaphor to the Lisa designers. I understand that most Unix filesystems do this sort of thing, but I think I skipped class the day we talked about filesystems in my operating systems class. And I also know that it has extensive abilities to rebuild it's filesystem if something gets hurt. But I'm not sure of the technical aspects of it. I've been meaning to go to my university's library and research the Lisa, because I know we've got several old computer magazines back to issue 1. And I'm pretty sure that the IEEE had an article about the Lisa's architecture in their journal sometime around 1983. Heh. They also have a book about how to build your own Z80 machine... that's another one I've been meaning to check out. But it really sucks since the Library is only open from like 8am to midnight. Who ever heard of a university library that's not 24-hours?? Anyway... starling From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 26 15:33:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706261843.NAA04446@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 starling@umr.edu wrote: > However, the Lisa still lives on. Every time you pull down a window > you're using Lisa technology. Lisa was also the first to have an > integrated office suite which could cut-n-paste between apps. Xerox > provided much of the inspiration, but Lisa polished the GUI into a usable > system. It's really quite impressive for a machine designed 78-81 and > released in 82. Actually, Xerox had a working GUI-based system (the name eludes me at the moment) well before the LISA, which is where Jobs got his inspiration from. So your comment about windows being based on Lisa technology is not fair to Xerox. Of course Bill would disavow any knowledge of both of these machines and tell us that Windows is, in fact, the One True God. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jun 26 16:16:45 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706261843.NAA04446@saucer.cc.umr.edu> References: <199706260138.AA08197@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Jun 25, 97 09:38:45 pm Message-ID: <9DB9A80566F@ifrsys.com> > > Question for any Alto owners - was the original Xerox GUI machine just as > > slow? > > Saw one on TV once, but I'm not sure what the Alto's processor was. But > as I recall, it's GUI wasn't as flashy. > I think my wife used one when she started working for UCLA in the mid '80s. It was a huge tower cabinet sitting on the floor, with a colossal 21" monochrome crt and laser printer/copier. Window / mouse action response was a tad lethargic, as I remember. Someone later told me that Xerox used their own cpu, specially designed for this kind of work: It was caled the MESA cpu. jeff From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 26 22:03:11 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <9DB9A80566F@ifrsys.com>; from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jun 26, 97 3:16 pm Message-ID: <199706262103.21326@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Someone later told me that Xerox used their own cpu, specially > designed for this kind of work: It was caled the MESA cpu. That's probably correct. I was once inside a Xerox 1108 (it was running interlisp-D when I finally got it to boot), and the CPU was 1 or 2 boards of chips. Unfortunately they were all house-coded (they had Xerox part numbers, not ones I could identify), but I remember there being 4 40 pin devices which I suspect were 2901 4bit bit-slice ALUs, and a lot of what looked like TTL and probably some RAM as a control store around them. > > jeff > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From starling at umr.edu Thu Jun 26 16:07:08 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jun 26, 97 01:33:58 pm Message-ID: <199706262107.QAA07118@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > > However, the Lisa still lives on. Every time you pull down a window > > you're using Lisa technology. Lisa was also the first to have an > > integrated office suite which could cut-n-paste between apps. Xerox > > provided much of the inspiration, but Lisa polished the GUI into a usable > > system. It's really quite impressive for a machine designed 78-81 and > > released in 82. > > Actually, Xerox had a working GUI-based system (the name eludes me at the > moment) well before the LISA, which is where Jobs got his inspiration > from. So your comment about windows being based on Lisa technology is > not fair to Xerox. Of course Bill would disavow any knowledge of both of > these machines and tell us that Windows is, in fact, the One True God. I'm well aware of this. I mis-typed when I said "pull down window" I meand "pull down menu". This feature was unique to the Lisa, as was other GUI concepts essential to GUIs we know and hate today. But other things like the window, icon, mousepointer, changing mousepointer (from arrow to hourglass, to "I" bar, to whatever) were all blatantly stolen from Xerox. One of the things that originated in the Lisa GUI that never was used anywhere else was the concept of a "pad of paper". In order to create a new LisaWrite document, you "tore off" a pice of LisaWrite paper off the LisaWrite pad. Kind of an odd concept... not particularly useful. Okay... I'll shut up about the Lisa now... :) -starling From mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu Thu Jun 26 16:08:11 1997 From: mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu (Matthew P. Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706262103.21326@club.eng.cam.ac.uk>; from A.R. Duell on Thu, Jun 26, 1997 at 10:03:11PM +0000 References: <9DB9A80566F@ifrsys.com> <199706262103.21326@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <19970626160811.64171@beret.cs.utexas.edu> On Thu, Jun 26, 1997 at 10:03:11PM +0000, A.R. Duell wrote: > Unfortunately they were all house-coded (they had Xerox part numbers, not > ones I could identify), but I remember there being 4 40 pin devices which > I suspect were 2901 4bit bit-slice ALUs, and a lot of what looked like TTL > and probably some RAM as a control store around them. Does anyone have information / know where I could find information on building a computer using 2901's? I know they were fairly common and I have (I'm almost positive) a few of the bare chips laying around home. m@ -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@cs.utexas.edu -- Austin, Texas (512)457-0086 -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Jun 26 22:13:22 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <19970626160811.64171@beret.cs.utexas.edu>; from "Matthew P. Sayler" at Jun 26, 97 4:08 pm Message-ID: <199706262113.21601@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Does anyone have information / know where I could find information on > building a computer using 2901's? I know they were fairly common and > I have (I'm almost positive) a few of the bare chips laying around > home. Well, there's the AMD 2900-series data book if you can still find a copy. There's enough info in there if you already know how to design a microcoded system to make one using the 2901's, etc. I suppose a good technical manual on a machine that used them would be a good starting point as well. Be warned that you need a lot more than the 2901's. They're just the ALU and registers. You also need some kind of control store sequencer (AMD would like to you use the 2909, 2910 or 2911), a microprogram (either stored in ROM or RAM) and a lot of glue logic. I suppose you _could_ go for a hardwired instruction decode, but you still need a sequenncer for your machine code program What I would love to see are the Application Notes for the 2900 series. I am told there's some fun stuff in some of them - Unibus SMD controllers etc. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Jun 26 16:11:08 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706262107.QAA07118@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 starling@umr.edu wrote: > > Actually, Xerox had a working GUI-based system (the name eludes me at the > > moment) well before the LISA, which is where Jobs got his inspiration Was it Smalltalk? I got a picture of that, somewhere... From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jun 26 16:44:10 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Xerox (RE: Lisa's scores) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20553B314@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> The first GUI system was the Xerox Alto. It was desk-sized. The commercial model was the Xerox Star, which was somewhat smaller (c.1977) The Xerox Alto appears to have introduced: - Bitmapped displays - BitBLT raster operations - Cursor changes to show system mode - GUI menus and Popup menus - Overlapped windows - Tiled windows - Scroll bars - Push buttons, radio buttons, check boxes - Dialog boxes - Multiple fonts and styles visible in text - Cut/Copy/Paste with a mouse The Lisa UI appears to have introduced: - Pull-down menus - Menu bars - Disabling (graying) of menu items - Command-key shortcust for menu items - Check marks on menu items The book "Fumbling the Future: How Xerox Invented, Then Ignored, the First Personal Computer" by Douglas Smith and Robert Alexander, states that Xerox voluntarily offered the UI elements to Steve Jobs. Apple does not appear to have "stolen" the ideas. Kai > ---------- > From: Daniel A. Seagraves > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 2:11 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Lisa's scores > > On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 starling@umr.edu wrote: > > > > Actually, Xerox had a working GUI-based system (the name eludes me > at the > > > moment) well before the LISA, which is where Jobs got his > inspiration > > Was it Smalltalk? > I got a picture of that, somewhere... > From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Thu Jun 26 16:46:25 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Altair Emu In-Reply-To: References: <199706261843.NAA04446@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970626224625.006e7fa0@post.keme.co.uk> Who wants a Altair Emulator 17k?? Shall i uploaded it to the group Steve Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 26 18:15:03 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Altair Emu In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970626224625.006e7fa0@post.keme.co.uk> from "steve" at Jun 26, 97 10:46:25 pm Message-ID: <9706262215.AA09959@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 293 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970626/19685e9a/attachment-0001.ksh From william at ans.net Thu Jun 26 17:23:01 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706261843.NAA04446@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: <199706262223.AA02594@interlock.ans.net> > Also I think I read somewhere that they purposefully designed it to look > like a "business-like" dumb terminal to get around the "hobbyist/home > computer" reputation of the Apple IIs. I'd also guess that secretaries > (who the machine was designed for) would feel more comfortable with a new > system if it looked like their old one. That seems to make sense. > Actually, I've always felt that they didn't do ENOUGH with the 68000. > They clocked the poor thing at 5Mhz... it could have happily taken 8, > but the story goes that at the time they were designing the Lisa, the > 68000 wasn't out yet. So Motorola gave them a 68000 "emulator" which was > a box with a bunch of discrete components in it that did effectively what > the chip would do... but it only ran at 5Mhz. The very first 68000s, the XC series production samples, are 4 MHz. The emulator probably was only designed to support up to this speed. Apple was probably pushing things at 5 MHz. > In using my own Lisa, it really isn't that sluggish. Especially if you > compare it to a Mac 128 or 512. The filesystem on the Lisa is VERY > advanced and allows for recovery from errors that'd hork other > filesystems. It has memory protection which keeps it from being as > flakey as the early Macs (and later Macs :), and it truely multitasks > instead of just lame task-switching like it's Macintosh cousin. Oh yes, it did have a real operating system (OK, the memory management was not great, but considering Motorola had not introduced the 68K MMUs, not bad). > However, the Lisa still lives on. Every time you pull down a window > you're using Lisa technology. Lisa was also the first to have an > integrated office suite which could cut-n-paste between apps. Xerox > provided much of the inspiration, but Lisa polished the GUI into a usable > system. It's really quite impressive for a machine designed 78-81 and > released in 82. With a little more horsepower, it really could have been something special. William Donzelli william@ans.net From cerebral at michianatoday.com Thu Jun 26 17:57:32 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores Message-ID: <22573222300120@michianatoday.com> >Files are linked lists of blocks. The sector header of each sector on the >hard disk contains pointers to the previous and next blocks in the file, >along with some other info that I've forgotten >Files may be sparse - the fact that block n exists does not mean that >block n-1 does >Block 0 of each file (I think, maybe block -1) contains the 'file >descriptor' - bascially an i-node. >Negative block numbers are the file allocation map. You can use this to >quickly find any block in the file without following the links. From dlormand at aztec.asu.edu Thu Jun 26 18:03:51 1997 From: dlormand at aztec.asu.edu (DAVID L. ORMAND) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <9706262303.AA28654@aztec.asu.edu> >And it was more than just the machine itself, but the culture that >spawned around it. The culture I am referring to mainly is the BBS >culture with all its lingo, the pirate groups who banded together and >cracked software, the holy wars with other computers. >The history behind the machine is what I am most interested in. What >company built it, what year it came out, what technology it used (its >processor, RAM, etc), what its predecessor and successor were, etc. I >like to know each machines historical perspective. Part of the thrill I have of being a TI junkie is BEING part of that history! The interesting part of the 99/4A is not so much the level of technology involved (although it IS there, relative to other home computers of the period) as the legend of how TI could make a market run with it, strain every nerve in true TI tradition, and then dramatically dump it when the effort finally proves to be too much. And now, I am part of the history of the TI-99/4A too, by perversely supporting it in preference to other (e.g. modern, more capable) platforms. -- ********************************************** * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * * dlormand@aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * **************************** TMS9900 Lives! * From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jun 26 18:07:42 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Floppy drive type for North Star controller? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205545261@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Hi all, Anybody know what type of drive I can connect to the popular North Star MDS-AD3 S-100 disk controller board? I'm confused with all of this old floppy terminology. I know single vs. dual density (FM vs. MFM) is determined by the controller, and soft vs. hard sectoring is determined by the controller, so neither of these should matter as far as the drive is concerned. What bothers me is single vs. double sided and all of those jumpers on 5 1/4" drives. Will dual sided drives work on single sided controllers, with only one side operating? Do those jumpers need to be set differently for different controllers, and how would I find documentation for the various brands (I'm sure I wouldn't!) Any advice appreciated, thanks Kai From dlormand at aztec.asu.edu Thu Jun 26 18:07:23 1997 From: dlormand at aztec.asu.edu (DAVID L. ORMAND) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <9706262307.AA28923@aztec.asu.edu> >What worries me is that in a lot of cases, the older machines are more >useable than the modern Wintel equivalents. This applies both to a new >user (somebody who just wants to write 2 page letters does _NOT_ (or >should not) need a 166MHz Pentium with 16Mbytes of RAM), and to 'hackers' >who want to understand their machines. It's possible for one person to >complete understand both the hardware and software of most classic >computers - something that (IMHO) is not possible with a Wintel box. >Same here. In reality I use my s100 crate, ampro, and sb180 to produce >8048/9 and 8051 code as they really are faster and easier to use. Also >being as I have them interconnected it's easier to blast proms in the >s100 crate. Efficient, very! I've had nearly 20 years to refine the code >and tools! I have the advantage of having source code for those tools so >and long latent bugs are easily squashed. This is not doable on PCs. >I still do my banking/checkbook on the kaypro! Faster than the PC >overall. For a while there, I was thinking maybe I'm in the wrong group. I see a LOT of traffic about restoring and collecting old computers, and the typical member here is one who has a large collection of different machines, but except for a rare question about boot disks, there isn't much said about using these machines. When I turn on my 99/4A or Geneve, it isn't primarily to bask in a nostalgic glow, but to write something or balance my budget or do some programming. Certainly the nostalgic glow is there, and it adds a dimension to the computing experience that peecee devotees cannot understand. But it IS my primary workhorse, not just a desk queen. Don't get me wrong; I love to hear about these old machines, so keep those messages coming. But I would like to hear from others out there who use their obsolete machines (I prefer "non-mainstream machines") for practical, everyday, household computing uses. In fact, I'm wondering how widespread my idea is (shared by a few, apparently) that the smaller, simpler machines really are well suited for home use, and you don't need a high-end peecee for nearly everything you want to do. -- ********************************************** * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * * dlormand@aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * **************************** TMS9900 Lives! * From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 26 19:18:41 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: Floppy drive type for North Star controller? In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205545261@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Jun 26, 97 04:07:42 pm Message-ID: <9706262318.AA01450@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1478 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970626/9b23d2cc/attachment-0001.ksh From dynasoar at mindspring.com Fri Jun 27 08:04:01 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (dynasoar) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <9706262307.AA28923@aztec.asu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, DAVID L. ORMAND wrote: > > In fact, I'm wondering how widespread my idea is (shared by a > few, apparently) that the smaller, simpler machines really are well > suited for home use, and you don't need a high-end peecee for nearly > everything you want to do. > Here, here! I am totally in empathy with you, David, on this. I use many of the machines in my collection daily for various tasks; keeping private journal pages on the C-64's word processor, playing games on my PS2 Model 25, even surfing the 'Net and email on my XT in the kitchen! In fact, there are not many tasks in computing that I have found to REQUIRE a fast, modern PC with tons of memory and processor. Keep in mind that practically *all* of the tasks done on today's machines are exactly those that were done 15 years ago on the simpler machines. What *has* changed IMHO are the skills that the average user now brings to the interface. Click, point, drag, and drop require a lot less dexterity, concentration, and skill than learning keyboard commands, or having to be competent with an operating system in order to get it to do what you want it to. Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From rcini at msn.com Thu Jun 26 18:09:58 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: ROM Archive Message-ID: Sam and William: Here's what I think so far (which isn't much ): 1. Record format: open (depending on software for EPROM programmer); S-records, Intel Hex, binary. 2. Submission & storage: UUEncoded image file e-mailed to "repository"; ROM/EPROM chips sent by snail mail and returned. All submissions should have as much info about the source computer as possible (board revisions, date of mnaufacture, etc.) 3. Requests & withdrawls: by e-mail to those with programmers; by mail for those supplying their own chips; e-mail request with no chip sent. 4. Cost: nominal (cost of postage and EPROM). How does this sound so far?? ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking ------------------------------ What format would these images be? S-records? William Donzelli william@ans.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:40:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Sam Ismail To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Computer Documentation Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > As far as ROMs are concerned, maybe we can start a "ROM Archive" > database/repository. Members with EPROM programmers could make copies of > known-good ROMS from various machines at the request of other members. Good idea. I think someone's thrown this out before. Anyone want to volunteer to coordinate? > As far as Copyright concerns, I don't think that there are any. First, many > of our target companies are out of business. Second, we are not selling these > chips (and the software contained therein) in a commercial sense. Third, > they're being used as a one-for-one replacement for defective firmware. I view > it like a diskette: I own Norton Utilities with a bad disk 1. My friend also > owns Norton Utilities, and he makes me a copy of his disk 1. Both of us have > valid software licenses because we both bought the program. It's like > preservation of matter. Let's put it this way: if you don't tell anyone, I won't. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Thu Jun 26 18:38:55 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <970626183855.2040de1a@wartburg.edu> >I see a LOT of traffic about restoring and collecting old computers, >and the typical member here is one who has a large collection of >different machines, but except for a rare question about boot disks, >there isn't much said about using these machines. When I turn on my >99/4A or Geneve, it isn't primarily to bask in a nostalgic glow, but >to write something or balance my budget or do some programming. >Certainly the nostalgic glow is there, and it adds a dimension to >the computing experience that peecee devotees cannot understand. But >it IS my primary workhorse, not just a desk queen. That's part of what I love about my Apple IIGS. I'm the original owner. I know what this machine has done for me and continues to do for me. I love its simplicity. In the rare event of a crash, I pretty much know what the problem is, because I know the machine much better than anything Wintel came up with or any of the Macincrash line. >Don't get me wrong; I love to hear about these old machines, so keep >those messages coming. But I would like to hear from others out there >who use their obsolete machines (I prefer "non-mainstream machines") >for practical, everyday, household computing uses. Well, I'm a college student, so I use my IIGS for writing papers (though I transfer them to a Mac to print because my Imagewriter II isn't in good shape - I'll get around to fixing it one of these days). Mainly, I use it to connect to the campus computer system. I've also used it to run a BBS, play games, program - more than most people do with their PeeCees. >In fact, I'm wondering how widespread my idea is (shared by a >few, apparently) that the smaller, simpler machines really are well >suited for home use, and you don't need a high-end peecee for nearly >everything you want to do. You bet it is! This machine does everything I want or need it to do (or at least is capable of it, if I'm too cheap to buy things like a laser printer). -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From rcini at msn.com Thu Jun 26 18:17:31 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:39 2005 Subject: IBM System/36 Message-ID: Dan: Although I have never seen one up-close, a company that I formerly worked for had a System 36. I think that it is one of IBM's older mainframes/minis that was the predecessor to the AS/400 (our S36 software ran unmodified on the AS/400). It's based on a TwinAx-based network and has terminals connected to it with snappy names such as the "3270" and the "5250". Line printers are also Twin-Ax based. I hope that this is the same one that I was thinking about (otherwise, ignore the above ). ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From spc at armigeron.com Thu Jun 26 19:29:22 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: from "dynasoar" at Jun 27, 97 08:04:01 am Message-ID: <199706270029.UAA31183@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great dynasoar once stated: > > In fact, there are not many tasks in computing that I have found to > REQUIRE a fast, modern PC with tons of memory and processor. Keep in mind > that practically *all* of the tasks done on today's machines are exactly > those that were done 15 years ago on the simpler machines. But it depends upon what you are doing. While in theory you could calculate e to 100,000 digits using an Apple ][, it might take upwards of a week for the results, and you couldn't use the computer in the meantime, whereas on modern machines, 100,000 digits could be generated in under an hour, and with the right OS, you could still work on other things [1]. And if you consider that a pretty bogus example, what about rendering (which I used to know as ray tracing)? Or photographic (or just graphic) manipulations? Granted, there are plenty of things that can still be done on older hardware, and in fact, I used to write a weekly humor column on a Coco in the late 80s. > What *has* changed IMHO are the skills that the average user now brings to > the interface. Click, point, drag, and drop require a lot less dexterity, > concentration, and skill than learning keyboard commands, or having to be > competent with an operating system in order to get it to do what you want > it to. What also has changed is the speed of computers, and the amount of memory. On the plus side, the increase in speed and memory has the potential to allow one to manipulate more data in less time. Unfortunately, programs (and operating systems) have bloated, which lessens the usefulness of fast CPUs and vast memory. Don't get me wrong, I like the older computers, if only because of what could be done with 1K, 4K, 16K or 64K. And they are conceptually simpler to understand and possibly even repairable. Not so with todays computers with proprietary VLSI chips that do everything. [1] Steve Wozniak wrote a program to calculate e to 100,000 digits on an Apple ][, using highly optimized assembly, which took advantage of mapping the problem to the 6502, and it still took 4 days. A year or so ago I wrote a version in C (based upon the 6502 code and his explanation of it [2]) and ran it on a 386-33Mhz running Linux and had an answer in under an hour. My, how time progresses 8-) [2] Byte, December 1981. From spc at armigeron.com Thu Jun 26 19:41:42 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <9706262307.AA28923@aztec.asu.edu> from "DAVID L. ORMAND" at Jun 26, 97 04:07:23 pm Message-ID: <199706270041.UAA31230@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great DAVID L. ORMAND once stated: > > >I still do my banking/checkbook on the kaypro! Faster than the PC > >overall. > > In fact, I'm wondering how widespread my idea is (shared by a > few, apparently) that the smaller, simpler machines really are well > suited for home use, and you don't need a high-end peecee for nearly > everything you want to do. > I no longer use my Coco for word processing, namely for two reasons: I don't have the space to set it up, and two, it's a bit sluggish (okay, I'm spoiled - I like having true lower case and a 80x25 screen). But I do use my other computers - a 386 for communications (as it can handle the 28.8kbps modem I have now), the Amiga for programming, the Data General 1 (lap top) when I travel and the Tandy 6000 for financial stuff (it has Multiplan on it, which I use from time to time). I'd use the uVax more often, but I need to get a new harddrive for it, and getting one with VMS 4.x pre-installed isn't that easy (not that I've tried really hard). I'd probably use it for CPU intensive projects, like ray tracing, and some development work (homebrew project: operating system of my own design). -spc (Fairly selective in the machines I collect - I don't have the time, money or space to collect machines ad-hoc. I like to use the machines I have) From cerebral at michianatoday.com Thu Jun 26 20:05:47 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <01054730800039@michianatoday.com> At 04:07 PM 6/26/97 -0700, you wrote: > > >>What worries me is that in a lot of cases, the older machines are more >>useable than the modern Wintel equivalents. This applies both to a new >>user (somebody who just wants to write 2 page letters does _NOT_ (or >>should not) need a 166MHz Pentium with 16Mbytes of RAM), and to 'hackers' >>who want to understand their machines. It's possible for one person to >>complete understand both the hardware and software of most classic >>computers - something that (IMHO) is not possible with a Wintel box. > >>Same here. In reality I use my s100 crate, ampro, and sb180 to produce >>8048/9 and 8051 code as they really are faster and easier to use. Also >>being as I have them interconnected it's easier to blast proms in the >>s100 crate. Efficient, very! I've had nearly 20 years to refine the code >>and tools! I have the advantage of having source code for those tools so >>and long latent bugs are easily squashed. This is not doable on PCs. > >>I still do my banking/checkbook on the kaypro! Faster than the PC >>overall. > >For a while there, I was thinking maybe I'm in the wrong group. > >I see a LOT of traffic about restoring and collecting old computers, >and the typical member here is one who has a large collection of >different machines, but except for a rare question about boot disks, >there isn't much said about using these machines. When I turn on my >99/4A or Geneve, it isn't primarily to bask in a nostalgic glow, but >to write something or balance my budget or do some programming. >Certainly the nostalgic glow is there, and it adds a dimension to >the computing experience that peecee devotees cannot understand. But >it IS my primary workhorse, not just a desk queen. > >Don't get me wrong; I love to hear about these old machines, so keep >those messages coming. But I would like to hear from others out there >who use their obsolete machines (I prefer "non-mainstream machines") >for practical, everyday, household computing uses. > >In fact, I'm wondering how widespread my idea is (shared by a >few, apparently) that the smaller, simpler machines really are well >suited for home use, and you don't need a high-end peecee for nearly >everything you want to do. > >-- >********************************************** >* David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * >* dlormand@aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * >**************************** TMS9900 Lives! * > I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am not a member of the dark force, I just have a multitude of machines, and I have EXPERIANCED running them, from an apple ][ +, C=64, IBM XT, and a 586-133. we must have an open mind about this, as there are some who still never ran anything NEW, and pass judgment about how bad a machine is when they have never used one. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jun 26 20:17:16 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Dead Cromemco - Help! Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205550910@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> My Cromemco System 3 won't power up. Help! Normally I would just pull it open and check the power supply voltages, but this is a problem because A) the case is incredibly difficult to get into, and B) I don't have the schematics. I'd like folks' assessment of probable problem causes before I tear into it (heck, it takes two people just to move the sucker!) Symptoms: The rear power switch glows when I turn it on. So far, so good. All fuses are OK. When I turn the front key (or hit the rear switch with the front key already ON) all I get is a faint internal click, and the power supply fan moves VERY slightly (maybe 1/8"). Somebody told me this is an AC fan, is this true? If so, either the fan is dead or the problem isn't the power supply. If the problem is the power supply, what's the likely culprit for this symptom? I peered into the back of the case with a flashlight (this is a BIG case) and the cap didn't appear to be leaking. Thoughts? thanks Kai From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 26 20:25:46 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores Message-ID: <199706270125.AA05953@world.std.com> > BTW, Allison, the Lisa wasn't actually a PROTOTYPE for the Mac. Rather i > was the sister machine to the Mac. The Lisa and Mac projects stemmed fro > the same research, with the Mac project splitting off from the Lisa It was my understanding at the time if you wanted to develop apps for the mac you needed a design kit and a lisa. Something to the effect that the lisa has the resources that were a bit short in the mac. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 26 20:25:53 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores Message-ID: <199706270125.AA06089@world.std.com> > Does anyone have information / know where I could find information on > building a computer using 2901's? I know they were fairly common and > I have (I'm almost positive) a few of the bare chips laying around > home. Find an old (early 80s) copy of the amd or motorola data books. These are bipolar 4 bit slices and can be used to make a fairly fast cpu (10mhz) of variying designs from 4 bit to over 64 bits. Warning microcoding can be habit forming. You will also want 2909/10/11 microcode sequencer chips. Those are less common. It's rather fun designing a cpu to your specs, hten of course you'll write all the other code too as it's one up design. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jun 26 20:26:08 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Floppy drive type for North Star controller? Message-ID: <199706270126.AA06399@world.std.com> > Anybody know what type of drive I can connect to the popular North Star > MDS-AD3 S-100 disk controller board? Sugart sa400l or similar. The MDS-AD3 was a dual density controller that aslo did two sided. Any of the 360 PC half height drives will work as will many of the older full height. Your limited to 5.25 as the media must be for ten sector hard sectoring. I have one here but it was given to me dead. I still run a MDS-A2 single density controller. FYI the are hard sector 10 sectors per track 256 or 512 bytes a sector. > dual density (FM vs. MFM) is determined by the controller, and soft vs. FM single density, MFM double density. > What bothers me is single vs. double sided and all of those jumpers on 5 > 1/4" drives. Will dual sided drives work on single sided controllers, Yes. > with only one side operating? Do those jumpers need to be set > differently for different controllers, and how would I find > documentation for the various brands (I'm sure I wouldn't!) Yes. The controller you identified is two sided capable and double density capable but the OS can be configured for various combinations. Allison From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 26 20:23:45 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 starling@umr.edu wrote: > > > > Actually, Xerox had a working GUI-based system (the name eludes me at the > > > moment) well before the LISA, which is where Jobs got his inspiration > > Was it Smalltalk? > I got a picture of that, somewhere... Smalltalk was the name of the object-oriented GUI language that was loaded onto the system. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jun 26 20:21:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: (fwd) 65816 computer (fwd) Message-ID: This is a message by John Harris I pulled off of the Atari 8bit newsgroup. John Harris, if you've ever read _Hackers_ by Steven Levy, wrote pretty awesome games for ther Atari 800. He later when on to start his own company which used Atari 8-bit computers as displays in airports and in the hotel industry for the guests services menu on the TV (read about it in a soft-book called _Halcyon Days_). Anyway, the system he describes here sounds pretty neat. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: jharris@poboxes.com (John Harris) Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.8bit Subject: 65816 computer Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:01:39 GMT Some of you may remember an anouncement I tried to make a few years back, but later had to keep quiet. It concerned a new atari-compatible computer made with a 65816 processor and some other cool stuff. It was being manufactured for a dedicated application that I actually never found out what it really was. I found out about it at a time when I was selling character generator software on the Atari8, and having immense difficulty obtaining Atari hardware. It was a great connection to make, and we are still selling these new systems with my CG software installed. The big project never materialized, since the company making the systems and Atari could never reach an agreement for large supply of Atari custom chips. It seemed like a no-brainer--Atari had chips, these guys had money, it should have been a simple exchange. It's no wonder Atari doesn't have any feet left. They keep shooting themselves there. Anyway, the bottom line is that Atari negotiations were the reason behind my silence at the time, and now that the project is completely dead I can make public the details of the machine for all those that are curious. It is based on a 5.37MHz 65816 processor, although it still runs 1.79MHz when accessing the base 64K of address space for compatibilty with the custom chips. It is in a nice case with internal 3.5 high density floppy and hard drive, parallel and serial, expansion slots, fully static memory (turn the power off and on, and everything is still there!), mouse support, and separate IBM-style keyboard. It has its own Sparta-like DOS, and with 65816 optimizations the memlo gets down to $FA3. I've found the compatibility to be extremely good, with two main problems. Some european programs, especially demos, use the undocumented 6502 extra instructions, and these don't work on the 65816 CPU. The other issue, is that there is no cartridge slot. Technically, it is feasible to add a slot using a plug in board, and run a connector out the back. It would probably depend on the number of interested parties for whether it was financially affordable to get the thing made. One nice thing about the slots though, they are physically the same as IBM 16-bit ISA cards. (but not electronically compatible of course). You can get experimenter boards for IBMs that just run power and have all other connections open. The do-it-yourself'er can do pretty much anything from here. Because of being a very low-production item, it is really expensive by 8-bit standards. Retail is $1800 with all options and the CG software. Obviously, it's only being sold to commercial applications like hotels and cable TV at that price. It is possible to make some deals if anyone is interested, especially for systems without the CG software. Obviously, I need to be fair to the people who are still buying the system for commercial use. I don't have any prices for you, but if anyone is interested at all, please let me know and I'll see what we can work out. If you're just curious for info, let me know that too. John Harris Japanese translation of Microsoft slogan: jharris@poboxes.com "If you don't know where you want to go, we'll make sure you get taken." From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jun 26 20:27:42 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: PCjr Cartridges? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970626183126.0ef76b32@mail.crl.com> Saw today a few cartridges which I'm guessing are PCjr carts. They said (among other things) "Cartridge BASIC". Anyone interested in them? They were (I think) a buck. They also had some misc Apple II cards (about $5 each, I think), some Atari 800 ROM's (or RAM? I didn't look that closely). Lemme know if there's any interest. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jun 26 21:33:43 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <9706262307.AA28923@aztec.asu.edu> from "DAVID L. ORMAND" at Jun 26, 97 04:07:23 pm Message-ID: <9706270133.AA02646@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1562 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970626/5a8f53b5/attachment-0001.ksh From gram at cnct.com Thu Jun 26 21:10:08 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Dead Cromemco - Help! In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205550910@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > My Cromemco System 3 won't power up. Help! Send it to me. I'll fix it. Then I'll send it back (when Hell freezes over, I wanted one of those the first day I saw it at the Mountain View Byte Shop in '78, but the damned bank wouldn't give the loan for slightly over my annual income to buy a properly fitted system -- plus I hadn't _had_ the job at Memorex that long, being fresh out of the USAF). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jun 26 20:56:35 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: old printers Message-ID: <970626215548_-1696695335@emout07.mail.aol.com> if anyone does actually collect old printers i've one available for the asking. its an hp2671a, a big and ugly thermal printer made in feb of 1993. prints the self test, but i cannot establish communication with mac, a //e or an xt through it's serial port no matter what the dip switches are set to. im in raleigh, nc and the printer weighs about 20lbs, so it's probably not worth shipping. if anyone wants it, give me a shout before i round file it. david. From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jun 26 21:08:39 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: PCjr Cartridges? Message-ID: <199706270206.VAA15824@challenge.sunflower.com> Im interested in the PCjr carts. I have the basic one, but I can post a list of what I have. ---------- > From: Uncle Roger > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: PCjr Cartridges? > Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 8:27 PM > > Saw today a few cartridges which I'm guessing are PCjr carts. They said > (among other things) "Cartridge BASIC". Anyone interested in them? They > were (I think) a buck. > > They also had some misc Apple II cards (about $5 each, I think), some Atari > 800 ROM's (or RAM? I didn't look that closely). Lemme know if there's any > interest. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From doug at the-one.com Thu Jun 26 23:27:56 1997 From: doug at the-one.com (Doug Rich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Northstar Software Message-ID: <199706270427.VAA05279@shell.wco.com> I was a northstar dealer for many years and have a box (about the size of a case of paper) full of northstar software on original disks. I am not sure what to do with them. I would like them to be of some use to someone. Any suggestions? Doug Remember... No mater where you go... there you are! From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 27 01:09:04 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Northstar Software In-Reply-To: <199706270427.VAA05279@shell.wco.com> from "Doug Rich" at Jun 26, 97 09:27:56 pm Message-ID: <9706270509.AA04706@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 645 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970626/90f653c9/attachment-0001.ksh From marvin at rain.org Fri Jun 27 00:16:17 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Dead Cromemco - Help! References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205550910@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33B34CA1.58FF@rain.org> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > My Cromemco System 3 won't power up. Help! > > Symptoms: > > The rear power switch glows when I turn it on. So far, so good. All > fuses are OK. When I turn the front key (or hit the rear switch with > the front key already ON) all I get is a faint internal click, and the > power supply fan moves VERY slightly (maybe 1/8"). > > Somebody told me this is an AC fan, is this true? If so, either the fan > is dead or the problem isn't the power supply. > According to the schematics I have, there are three 120VAC fans. The faint internal click is most likely the power relay. Also, according to what I am reading, there should be 3 LEDs mounted on the motherboard to show that the proper power is at least coming to the motherboard. It looks to me like they should be visible with the front panel swung open as they are located in the middle of the motherboard at the front. Since I am leaving to spend a few days on the Colorado River for Field Day (Amateur Radio event), I won't be checking my mail for a couple of days. If you are still having trouble, let me know as I have the schematics and System Manual. Also a friend of mine (who gave me my System Three and documentation) was a Cromemco dealer and might be able to offer some suggestions. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri Jun 27 08:59:06 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <01054730800039@michianatoday.com>; from "tiborj" at Jun 26, 97 8:05 pm Message-ID: <199706270759.15397@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a > modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full > photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am I have used 'modern' PC's (well, at least pentiums with 16 MBytes RAM, SVGA card, etc), and I know I'm not missing _anything_ by sticking to classic computers. Let's go through your points. 'Web pages in full photo quality colour'. Well, I access the web to get information, not look at pretty pictures. Most of the information I want is _text_, or at least monochrome graphics (things like IC data sheets). So I don't need 'photo quality colour'. And if I did, I could easily find a classic system that could display them. Evans and Sutherland, Grinnell, Ramtek, I2S, PPL, etc all made high-res colour displays that make most PC's look like toys. And you can pick one up second-hand for less than an SVGA card + monitor. 'Realistic games'. I don't play many games, but I'll agree that modern games running on modern hardware do _look_ a lot more realistic than the text+block graphics we had on home computers 15 years ago. The problem is that IMHO (and YMMV) the old games are just more fun to play. That's a personal judgement, though. 'PPP connections' Oh come on. I've run a PPP client on an _XT_. No problem at all. I'll happily believe they're available for other old machines as well. 'Realaudio' I assume that's some audio standard for modern machines. But we had good quality audio on PDP11's (thanks to a little board from 3RCC) in 1976. It's not exactly hard to add a DAC and a DMA engine or even a DSP to a lot of classic computers (and classic computer != cheap home micro so there's easily enough RAM space for a reasonable length sample). What I'd be missing by going to a modern machine would be : Documentation. Since I don't just run prepackaged software and plug in prebuilt hardware, I need good technical manuals. They just don't exist for most modern machines Repairability. I can fix classic computers with no problem at all. Just try getting a custom chip for a PC motherboard. And don't tell me to replace the motherboard - if the PC is a few years old I'd probably have to replace the CPU and memory as well. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From eifs at thenet.co.uk Fri Jun 27 03:31:23 1997 From: eifs at thenet.co.uk (Eifion Bedford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In message , "Daniel A. Seagraves" writes >On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 starling@umr.edu wrote: > >> > Actually, Xerox had a working GUI-based system (the name eludes me at the >> > moment) well before the LISA, which is where Jobs got his inspiration > >Was it Smalltalk? >I got a picture of that, somewhere... > Naah, Smalltalk was the first(?) object-orientated language, developed by Xerox and which I have to learn for my Open University course next year :-( [It looks incredibly complicated] -- Eifion Bedford - I prefer MCMXXX technology to MMX technology! From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 27 06:51:23 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, Eifion Bedford wrote: > Eifion Bedford - I prefer MCMXXX technology to MMX technology! That should perhaps be MCMLXXX - in 1930 there weren't any Z-80, 6502 or 6809 CPUs available. There _is_ a limit to how far back we can go with classic computers. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From bwit at pobox.com Fri Jun 27 05:49:28 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Northstar Software Message-ID: <01BC82C6.B4ED0920@ppp-151-164-41-165.rcsntx.swbell.net> >> I was a northstar dealer for many years and have a box (about the size >>of a case of paper) full of northstar software on original disks. I am not >>sure what to do with them. I would like them to be of some use to >>someone. >Don Maslin (a frequent contributor to comp.os.cpm) has proven to be >a remarkably able archivist of this sort of stuff. Among other >things, he has a huge archive of CP/M boot disks that he makes >available to those with orphaned machines. His e-mail >address is donm@cts.com. I would second this suggestion. Don has saved me on a number of occasions and I think he would be happy to archive and distribute the software to those who need it. Good call Tim. bw -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1742 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970627/ba977956/attachment-0001.bin From David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov Fri Jun 27 08:02:56 1997 From: David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov (David_A._Vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <9705278674.AA867422030@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> I monitor this mailing list (some might call it lurking) because of all the now-classic machines that I used to own. If I had the room, time, and skill, I might be a collector like most of you, but for now I must be content to watch. I'm glad to see that so many people are still getting use out of these machines. There are certainly times when I wish I understood what was going on inside a Windows 95 box as well as I understood the various Kaypros, the Geneva, the Timex-Sinclair, the Model 100, or the other machines I once used on a daily basis. I suppose that even my Mac SE would qualify as a "classic machine" by now. On the other hand, let's not go overboard and say that you can do as much with those lean, mean computers of yesteryear as you can with today's bloated and overpowered desktop Cadillacs. Despite the processing power and overhead devoted to being more user friendly, today's machines are better at doing most kinds of real work. Okay, if you're just writing business letters or balancing your checkbook, a Kaypro is going to work just as well as a Dell Pentium. But that's only one extreme. When I was working on my dissertation, I wrote a cluster analysis program for my Kaypro II because it was the only machine I had. It took months to write and debug the program (written in S-BASIC), and every time I ran the analysis it took two days--literally, 48+ hours of grinding away. I could do the same thing in seconds using SAS and the P133 machine on which I'm typing this. In fact, I do this sort of thing for a living, and there are so many things that would be a major project on a classic machine which I do now just as a matter of preliminary exploration. And it's not just statistics. Writing reports is much easier with a mouse and multitasking. Getting data from dBASE II to Perfect Calc and then moving the summary table to Wordstar or Perfect Writer was a considerable chore. Yesterday I zapped a bunch of Quattro Pro tables (based on SAS output) over to a Word document, and everything showed up with no trouble, formatting and all. Those are programs written by rival companies, but they can talk to each other just fine. Others have mentioned that it takes more skill and intelligence to use classic software than to point and click. I don't disagree with that, and I'm proud of what I was able to get those machines to do. Learning to use those kinds of computers has given me a better outlook about later ones, and I still tweak my current set up much more than most people (and certainly more than our IT department would like me to). But then, I remember a lot of people in my Kaypro User's Group who never figured out how to use the modems in their 2Xs. Friendlier interfaces have opened up the benefits of computing to a lot of people who would never have put up with CP/M. After all computers are _supposed_ to make your life easier. If that means they require less intelligence and skill to use, that means they're doing their job. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 27 07:35:24 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Commodore P-500 In-Reply-To: <33AF60F2.387F@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > All I can do is give you the U.S. perspective on this machine, since I > haven't heard any stories on the European distribution of P-500s. A couple of years back, I took a book out of the university library entitled "The Microcomputer Users Handbook 1985" and typed some stuff up from it. Amongst the machines listed from Commodore were the "Commodore 500" and "Commodore 700". Would this "500" be related to the P-500, or to something else? The notes I have about the Commodore 500 say that it was intended to be a "professional/scientific" computer, and the cost was "from" 799 UKP. It used a 2MHz 6509 processor (whatever that is :) ) and came with 128K or 256K, expandable to 896K. It had 28K of ROM, including the BASIC interpreter. The ports I have listed are RS-232C, IEEE-488, video and audio out (my source didn't say what kind), cassette, cartridge port, and two joystick ports. Screen size: 40x25 characters. 320x200 pixels in hi-res, 16 colours, 8 sprites (sounds like the C64's VIC-II). I think it also specifically stated that the machine used the SID chip for sound, but I may have just been reading between the lines. Also mentioned were optional Z80A and 8088 processor boards, which were supposed to be able to operate concurrently with the 6509. Release date was listed as 1982, but I noticed that that book usually listed _UK_ release dates. Still, it couldn't be any earlier if the machine had the SID and VIC-II chips. Is it possible the machine was available in Europe and not North America? I think I'll have to go back to the library to find that book now that I've got a video camera and framegrabber, to grab some of the (many, many) photos of old systems. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jun 27 08:07:56 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Apple clones (was: Re: C64 CP/M carts) In-Reply-To: <97Jun24.182108pdt.32259@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com wrote: > >In Italy there was Lemon computer building Apple-clones. > >Has anyone heard about them? > Were they actually called 'Lemon's'? That certainly doesn't have a > positive > connotation in North America! > > In Canada, a company built Apple II clones called 'Pineapples'. > > There were probably other fruit-named clones as well! Also seen in Canada: Granny Smith and McIntosh. And yes, I saw the "McIntosh" Apple ][ clones before the arrival of the Macintosh. :) I kind of wish I had bough a McIntosh rather than my Microcom clone, just for the name. But Microcom had a large store nearby, with good support. I don't know where the McIntosh and Granny Smith clones were coming from. > -- > Clark Geisler Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From groberts at mitre.org Fri Jun 27 08:26:30 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Z100 saved from the landfill Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970627092630.00803970@mail90> thanks to a pointer originally posted on this list i met up with someone yesterday who bequeathed me his old Z-100 (Heath/Zenith pre-pc era dual CPU system). it took me a while to replace a bunch of the keyboard switches (they were gunked up with glue) and some bad video RAM, but now the system hums along nicely. he had souped it up in a number of ways (except no hard disk, darn) and had tons of software. i'll undoubtedly have extra and will post a listing of duplicates at some point in case anyone's interested. he included lots of cp/m stuff including cp/m85 and cp/m86 and, interestingly, mp/m. so thanks for the pointer guys! (P.S. i've noticed a markedly improved signal to noise ratio on this list lately so people are thinking twice before hitting the "send" button with meaningless chatter or flaming comments - let's keep it up!) tx. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Jun 27 08:35:14 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <199706270041.UAA31230@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > It was thus said that the Great DAVID L. ORMAND once stated: > > > > >I still do my banking/checkbook on the kaypro! Faster than the PC > > >overall. > > In fact, I'm wondering how widespread my idea is (shared by a > > few, apparently) that the smaller, simpler machines really are well > > suited for home use, and you don't need a high-end peecee for nearly > > everything you want to do. > > > I no longer use my Coco for word processing, namely for two reasons: I > don't have the space to set it up, and two, it's a bit sluggish (okay, I'm > spoiled - I like having true lower case and a 80x25 screen). > I'd use the uVax more often, but I need to get a new harddrive for it, and > getting one with VMS 4.x pre-installed isn't that easy (not that I've tried > really hard). I'd probably use it for CPU intensive projects, like ray > tracing, and some development work (homebrew project: operating system of my > own design). I plan to put the '11 to work as my Internet machine. When I get a LAN in the house (Not Likely), I plan to use it as the server machine. The point is it probably out-performs my 486. And it's neat. I just wish I had the programmer's panel for it! I may also make it a webserver (Assuming I can re-write HTTPD) so I can show off. Or I may just get lazy like normal and not do any of this :) From mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu Fri Jun 27 09:13:09 1997 From: mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu (Matthew P. Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores In-Reply-To: <199706270125.AA06089@world.std.com>; from Allison J Parent on Thu, Jun 26, 1997 at 09:25:53PM -0400 References: <199706270125.AA06089@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19970627091309.08841@beret.cs.utexas.edu> On Thu, Jun 26, 1997 at 09:25:53PM -0400, Allison J Parent wrote: > microcoding can be habit forming. You will also want 2909/10/11 microcode > sequencer chips. Those are less common. I beleive I had a number of these support chips also. These all came in a big lot of surplus components my brother scavenged. Now, if I only had a use for 10000 10uF capacitors . . m@ -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@cs.utexas.edu -- Austin, Texas (512)457-0086 -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jun 27 10:22:37 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <199706270759.15397@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at Jun 27, 97 08:59:06 am Message-ID: <9706271422.AA05337@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 627 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970627/84d62fa7/attachment-0001.ksh From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Fri Jun 27 10:39:52 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores Message-ID: <01IKK9GEK1RS9X5JYF@cc.usu.edu> > From hacking Commodore 1541 disks, I have seen that it used a system as you > mentioned above, and in block 0 of each file the first 2 bytes was the load > address if it was a program file, or data in a sequnetial file, and each > block had pointers to the next block. too bad that ms-dos is not as simple.. But MS-DOS _is_ that simple. It just stores the linked list in a different part of the disk than it stores the data... Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 27 10:55:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: (fwd) Apple III computer & Monitor FS (fwd) Message-ID: Thought someone may be interested. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "News User" Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.marketplace Subject: Apple III computer & Monitor FS Date: 25 Jun 1997 12:57:25 GMT I have an Apple III computer & Monitor III for sale with Manuals and software for sale, or Trade. Please let me know if you are interested. Robert Please respond to: rdoerr@bizserve.com -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 27 10:59:47 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <199706270759.15397@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > 'Realistic games'. I don't play many games, but I'll agree that modern > games running on modern hardware do _look_ a lot more realistic than the > text+block graphics we had on home computers 15 years ago. The problem is > that IMHO (and YMMV) the old games are just more fun to play. That's a > personal judgement, though. I totally agree. Rogue isn't an all time favorite by government decree. Also, there are games on the Apple ][ that are way more fun and interesting than any PC schlock these days. Heck, I still have my Atari 2600 sitting by my TV that I fire up fairly often. A game that fits inside a 2K eprom holds my interest longer than some PC games. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jun 27 11:18:44 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Northstar Software Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20555A309@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> As much as I would love to get this stuff directly myself, I would much prefer that you send them to Don Maslin, the CP/M boot disk archivist, from whom I (and many others) can obtain copies. Kai > ---------- > From: Doug Rich > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:27 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Northstar Software > > I was a northstar dealer for many years and have a box (about the size > of a > case of paper) full of northstar software on original disks. I am not > sure > what to do with them. I would like them to be of some use to someone. > Any suggestions? > > Doug > > Remember... No mater where you go... there you are! > From s-ware at nwu.edu Fri Jun 27 11:23:17 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <9706262307.AA28923@aztec.asu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, DAVID L. ORMAND wrote: > Don't get me wrong; I love to hear about these old machines, so keep > those messages coming. But I would like to hear from others out there > who use their obsolete machines (I prefer "non-mainstream machines") > for practical, everyday, household computing uses. I wrote a book last year on a TRS-80 model 100 portable. There's nothing else in the 4-pound range that can compare to its excellent keyboard and long battery life (except, of course, the other machines that share the same design, such as the NEC PC-8201). Unfortunately, the publisher required everything to be submitted in Word 6 format using a custom template (to facilitate conversion to SGML, oddly enough), so I had to do the final editing on a 486. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Fri Jun 27 06:39:15 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: which month? Message-ID: <33B3A663.3AB9@ndirect.co.uk> I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction of the three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: a) the Apple II b) the Tandy TRS-80 c) the Commodore Pet I need them for a book on collecting home computers I am researching for. Thank you enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jun 27 12:13:02 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: which month? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20555A383@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Here's the list I keep. Sorry about the formatting. Kai November, 1971 Intel 4004 CPU 1971 Nutting & Associates Computer Space arcade 1972 Atari Pong arcade 1972 Magnavox Odyssey home video game system November, 1972 Intel 8008 CPU March, 1974 Scelbi 8H kit appears in QST magazine April, 1974 Intel 8080 CPU July, 1974 Mark 8 plans appear in Radio Electronics magazine August, 1974 Motorola 6800 1974 RCA 1802 CPU 1974 Atari Pong home game January, 1975 MITS Altair 8800 September, 1975 IBM 5100 1975 IMSAI 8080 1975 Processor Technology Sol 1975 MOS Technology/Commodore KIM-1 July, 1976 Apple I kit July, 1976 Zilog Z80 CPU 1976 Fairchild/Zircon Channel F home game April, 1977 Apple II April, 1977 Commodore PET August, 1977 Tandy TRS-80 1977 Atari 2600 VCS home game 1977 RCA Studio II home game 1977 Bally Astrocade home game 1978 Intel 8085 CPU June, 1978 Intel 8086 CPU December, 1978 Atari 400/800 s 1978 Taito/Bally/Midway Space Invaders arcade 1978 Magnavox Odyssey2 home game February, 1979 Intel 8088 CPU May, 1979 Seattle Products 8086 S-100 CPU board May, 1979 Tandy TRS-80 Model II June, 1979 Texas Instruments 99/4 June, 1979 Apple II+ September, 1979 Motorola 68000 CPU 1979 Atari Asteroids arcade 1979 Atari Lunar Lander arcade 1979 Mattel Intellivision home game February, 1980 Sinclair ZX80 June, 1980 Commodore VIC-20 July, 1980 Tandy TRS-80 Model III July, 1980 Tandy TRS-80 Color I September, 1980 Apple III 1980 Atari Battlezone arcade 1980 Atari Missile Command arcade 1980 Bally/Midway Pac-Man arcade 1980 APF M1000 home game April, 1981 Osborne 1 May, 1981 Xerox Star August, 1981 IBM PC 1981 Atari Centipede arcade 1981 Nintendo Donkey Kong arcade November, 1982 Compaq Portable PC 1982 Commodore 64 1982 Colecovision home game 1982 GCE/Milton Bradley Vectrex home game 1982 Milton Bradley Microvision hand held game 1982 Atari 5200 home game 1982 Emerson Arcadia 2001 home game January, 1983 Apple Lisa January, 1983 Apple Iie March, 1983 Tandy TRS-80 Model 100 April, 1983 Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 June, 1983 Coleco Adam October, 1983 IBM PC-XT October, 1983 Compaq Portable Plus December, 1983 Apple III+ 1983 Mattel Intellivision II home game 1983 Mattel Aquarius January, 1984 Apple Macintosh February, 1984 IBM Portable PC March, 1984 IBM PCjr April, 1984 Apple IIc June, 1984 Compaq DeskPro August, 1984 IBM PC-AT September, 1984 Tandy 1000 1984 Motorola 68010 CPU 1984 Intel 80186 CPU 1984 Intel 80286 CPU January, 1985 Commodore 128 January, 1985 Atari 520ST January, 1985 Atari XE January, 1985 Apple Macintosh XL April, 1985 Compaq DeskPro 286 April, 1985 Compaq Portable 286 July, 1985 Commodore Amiga 1000 1985 Nintendo Entertainment System January, 1986 Apple Macintosh Plus February, 1986 Compaq Portable II April, 1986 IBM PC Convertible August, 1986 Intel 80386 CPU September, 1986 Compaq DeskPro 386 September, 1986 IBM PC-XT 286 1986 Sega Master System home game 1986 Atari 7800 March, 1987 Apple Macintosh II April, 1987 IBM PS/2 October, 1987 Compaq Portable 386 1987 Motorola 68030 CPU > ---------- > From: e.tedeschi > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 4:39 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: which month? > > I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction of the > > three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: > > a) the Apple II > b) the Tandy TRS-80 > c) the Commodore Pet > > I need them for a book on collecting home computers I am researching > for. > > Thank you > > enrico > -- > ================================================================ > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > website > ================================================================ > visit Brighton: > From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jun 27 12:07:29 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Computer Trivia Game Message-ID: <199706271718.KAA22133@mx4.u.washington.edu> > Anyone remember a trivial-pursuit-like Computer Trivia game? It was being > touted at one of the last West Coast Computer Faires here in San Francisco. > Anyone have a copy? I have computer-based trivia game (shareware, I think) on a CD-ROM. I could dig it up, if anyone want it...it had pretty hard questions, which went 'way back to the dawn of time (you know, like the 1950's :> )) From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Jun 27 12:38:01 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I wrote a book last year on a TRS-80 model 100 portable. There's nothing > else in the 4-pound range that can compare to its excellent keyboard and > long battery life (except, of course, the other machines that share the > same design, such as the NEC PC-8201). Unfortunately, the publisher > required everything to be submitted in Word 6 format using a custom > template (to facilitate conversion to SGML, oddly enough), so I had to do > the final editing on a 486. That thing (Mod 100) saved my ash more times than I'd like to mention in school! Unfortunately, I lost 4 keys on the keyboard, so I can't use it for much anymore (Keys were I K L and ?). I LOVED the look on the math teacher's face when I walked in with it! MT: What's that? Me: A calculator. MT: You're full of *, it's an organizer. ANd against the rules. Me: Actually it's a computer. (Shows off label) MT: You little wise***! :) From bwit at pobox.com Fri Jun 27 11:50:45 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: which month? Message-ID: <01BC82F8.BBFDBD40@ppp-151-164-39-39.rcsntx.swbell.net> IIRC the TRS-80 was introduced in September 1977. ---------- From: e.tedeschi Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 7:39 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: which month? I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction of the three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: a) the Apple II b) the Tandy TRS-80 c) the Commodore Pet I need them for a book on collecting home computers I am researching for. Thank you enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1772 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970627/5dbad2bd/attachment-0001.bin From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Fri Jun 27 14:37:44 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: which month? References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20555A383@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33B41688.4AE4@ndirect.co.uk> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > Here's the list I keep. Sorry about the formatting. > > Kai Oh, thank you very much for your list. It is very useful to me. Can I use it in my book please? I will mention your name of course. enrico From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 27 13:45:30 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) In-Reply-To: <33AEF7AB.26EA@ndirect.co.uk> References: <33AEF7AB.26EA@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33b40a2b.8319995@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 22:24:43 +0000, you wrote: % % % Hey. The Camputers 'Linx' is spelled Lynx. I have one. Ben From gram at cnct.com Fri Jun 27 14:15:53 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: which month? In-Reply-To: <33B3A663.3AB9@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > a) the Apple II > b) the Tandy TRS-80 > c) the Commodore Pet The TRS-80 was announced _and deliveries began_ -- no announcement was made until 5,000 had been manufactured -- on 3 August 1977. The Model II premiered two years later to the day. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From scott at saskatoon.com Fri Jun 27 14:25:35 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: which month? In-Reply-To: <33B3A663.3AB9@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: >I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction of the >three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: >a) the Apple II Okay, all sources for the Apple II seem to agree that it was introduced in April, but what date? From memory I would've said April 17th. I decided to confirm this with a quick web search and came up with two dates! http://www.research.apple.com/extras/history/ puts the date at April 20, 1977 while http://www.kelleyad.com/histry.htm puts the date at April 17, 1977. Both of these sources have the credentials to be accurate. Which date was it? Surely someone here knows. ttfn srw From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 27 14:20:51 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Video game machine/Computer With 6800 Processor Message-ID: <33b511e8.10301223@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Does anyone remember this machine : it's a video game console (like the atari VCS) but which could sit on a box which then converts it to a home computer. The machine ran on a 6800 and had built-in basic. It came out approx at the same time as the Atari 400/800 series (78-79?) I remember seeing an ad on it and the heading of the ad was "imagination machine". Ben From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Jun 27 14:41:15 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: JavaScript PDP-8 emulator! In-Reply-To: <33b511e8.10301223@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: This is neat! http://www.cs.uwyo.edu/~marnold/pdp8.html From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 27 16:37:32 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: ROM Archive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > Here's what I think so far (which isn't much ): > > 1. Record format: open (depending on software for EPROM programmer); > S-records, Intel Hex, binary. I'm no expert at this so I'll defer. > 2. Submission & storage: UUEncoded image file e-mailed to "repository"; > ROM/EPROM chips sent by snail mail and returned. All submissions should have > as much info about the source computer as possible (board revisions, date of > mnaufacture, etc.) Sounds good. The repository then is a "soft" repository of ROM images? > > 3. Requests & withdrawls: by e-mail to those with programmers; by mail for > those supplying their own chips; e-mail request with no chip sent. I assumed since the images are merely files they could be downloaded by anyone requesting them. Is the repository also going to have physical EPROMS that someone can request? If so, why? > 4. Cost: nominal (cost of postage and EPROM). Is the repository also going to be in the business of supplying people with pre-burnt EPROMS? If so then 3 makes more sense now. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dlormand at aztec.asu.edu Fri Jun 27 16:49:42 1997 From: dlormand at aztec.asu.edu (DAVID L. ORMAND) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <9706272149.AA17279@aztec.asu.edu> I am glad to hear that others, like myself, commonly use a "non-mainstream" machine for ordinary home applications. I would like to keep this discussion going for a while. I don't know that Dr. Shoppa using all that classic DEC machinery at his Canadian university qualifies as doing "ordinary home applications", although I'm delighted to hear that the old junk is still providing useful service (heck, at Hughes here, we have PDP-11s running AMRAAM test equipment, and HP-1000s running Tomahawk test equipment). >But it depends upon what you are doing. While in theory you could >calculate e to 100,000 digits using an Apple ][, it might take upwards of a >week for the results, and you couldn't use the computer in the meantime, >whereas on modern machines, 100,000 digits could be generated in under an >hour, and with the right OS, you could still work on other things [1]. I would also hesitate to say that calculating e to 100,000th digits is an ordinary household task. As is graphics arts, desktop publishing, audio mixing, and a lot of other things that some people do in their homes for fun or profit. Obviously you need the tools for the job. But nearly EVERYTHING you do for common home jobs can be done on the "home computers" that were sold for the purpose nearly 20 years ago. >I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a >modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full >photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am >not a member of the dark force, I just have a multitude of machines, and I >have EXPERIANCED running them, from an apple ][ +, C=64, IBM XT, and a 586-133. >we must have an open mind about this, as there are some who still never ran >anything NEW, and pass judgment about how bad a machine is when they have >never used one. I really have no dispute with people with modern machines. [Especially Macs or BeOS machines, for instance; peecees to me are primarily means for the Microsoft empire to attain world domination.] My beef is: (a) When these people look down on you for sticking with your "toy" computer when theirs is obviously so much more superior to yours, (b) People mislead by the above people into thinking that they MUST have a Pentium-class peecee to balance their checkbooks on, (c) User/owners of "non-mainstream" machines dumping them when they swallow the propaganda that they MUST have a peecee or they will be hopelessly left behind. The obvious reason the collectors in this List can acquire the classic machines for pennies from thrift stores is that people who donate to or shop at these thrift stores believe this is worthless junk that isn't capable of doing anything useful. I (and others on this List) KNOW that is false, but what can you do? How do you raise a voice of opposition in the face of the Wintel juggernaut? -- ********************************************** * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * * dlormand@aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * **************************** TMS9900 Lives! * From dlormand at aztec.asu.edu Fri Jun 27 16:52:05 1997 From: dlormand at aztec.asu.edu (DAVID L. ORMAND) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Modern Apps on Old Machines Message-ID: <9706272152.AA17442@aztec.asu.edu> >I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a >modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full >photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am >not a member of the dark force, I just have a multitude of machines, and I >have EXPERIANCED running them, from an apple ][ +, C=64, IBM XT, and a 586-133. >we must have an open mind about this, as there are some who still never ran >anything NEW, and pass judgment about how bad a machine is when they have >never used one. A different thought - I don't really buy the argument for owning a modern machine for the purposes of "better" games. But the Web browser thing is slightly different, being a VERY powerful and useful communication method. I have heard that the C64 and Atari 8-bit machines now have graphical Web browsers and PPP clients running on them. The TI community is working on a TCP/IP system, but we were debating the possibility of a Web browser. The argument I and others made in its defense was, granted the stock hardware is incapable of SVGA-grade graphical displays, with appropriate decoding, you can get "close" (with sufficient processing time), and if you have to "scroll" around to see the entire page, so what? 1. Am I correct in what I have heard of the C64 and Atari 8-bitters? 2. Is this a reasonable argument for "home computers" being fit out for browsing? Or is it silly when $2000 (maybe even below $1000) can get you a Web-capable peecee? 3. What other apps are there that are REALLY useful for home use that modern machines have and "home computers" don't? And is is really impossible to do these tasks on "home computers"? Is it worth the time and effort (even out of love) to write the software, or even create the new peripherals, to enable the old iron to do the job? -- ********************************************** * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * * dlormand@aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * **************************** TMS9900 Lives! * From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 27 16:55:47 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <9706272149.AA17279@aztec.asu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, DAVID L. ORMAND wrote: > The obvious reason the collectors in this List can acquire the classic machines > for pennies from thrift stores is that people who donate to or shop at these > thrift stores believe this is worthless junk that isn't capable of doing > anything useful. I (and others on this List) KNOW that is false, but what can > you do? How do you raise a voice of opposition in the face of the Wintel > juggernaut? Keep using your old computers. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 27 17:20:31 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <199706272220.AA19235@world.std.com> > going for a while. I don't know that Dr. Shoppa using all that classic > DEC machinery at his Canadian university qualifies as doing "ordinary hom > applications", although I'm delighted to hear that the old junk is still > providing useful service (heck, at Hughes here, we have PDP-11s running I have six all operational two get regular use. BEsides my CP/M systems from before the flood. > >modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in fu > >photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I a Well, much of this I used to do back around '85 using microvax in color with a 1280x1024 19" screen! Asa to much of the other stuff it's all hardware much of which saw it origins on s100, Q and other busses. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 27 17:20:39 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Modern Apps on Old Machines Message-ID: <199706272220.AA19362@world.std.com> Many of the midrange minies like the PDP-11, perq, and a host of others can and did do much of the web thing. much of the old machines don't do that was not a matter of speed or memory but software conceived to do that. is it practical not finance wise the user population is too small and would not pay much but the hardware can make a good account of itself. Keep in mind most of the PCs have only gotten to or exceeded the minicomputer performance level say in the last 7 years maybe less. Before then people used all manner of things to accomplish was PCs are commonly used for. Allison From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 27 17:23:42 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: BASF Extra 120 tape carthridges Message-ID: Can anyone use a mess of BASF Extra 120 (ultra stabilized) tape carthridges? I don't know much more about them beyond what is written on them. We get these at work every week and my accountant just tosses them because she has no use for them (we get records on them from PacBell for accounting stuff). I could collect these and send them off to someone every month if they want to pay for shipping in advance. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Fri Jun 27 17:20:13 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:40 2005 Subject: Modern Apps on Old Machines In-Reply-To: <9706272152.AA17442@aztec.asu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, DAVID L. ORMAND wrote: > I have heard that the C64 and Atari 8-bit machines now have graphical Web > browsers and PPP clients running on them. The TI community is working on > > 1. Am I correct in what I have heard of the C64 and Atari 8-bitters? A guy named Andre Fachat created a simple TCP/IP implementation on the 6502 and a simple Web server. > 2. Is this a reasonable argument for "home computers" being fit out for > browsing? Or is it silly when $2000 (maybe even below $1000) can get you > a Web-capable peecee? I would love for my Apple ][ (not //gs) to be able to browse graphical web pages, but a) the machine is barely fast enough for a TCP/IP implementation and b) the graphics are very low resolution and would not look nearly as pretty, plus they would eat away more CPU time that the TCP/IP driver would need. However, this has not stopped me from seriously considering writing a graphical web browser for the non-GS Apple ][s, if I only had the time. :) > 3. What other apps are there that are REALLY useful for home use that > modern machines have and "home computers" don't? And is is really > impossible to do these tasks on "home computers"? Is it worth the time > and effort (even out of love) to write the software, or even create the > new peripherals, to enable the old iron to do the job? None really. Even speech recognition, which will take the world by storm in a years time was capable on some early home computers. I have a speech recognition card for my Apple //e that could recognize a simple vocabulary, although nowhere near the scale that the new recognizers can do (ie. continuous speech recognition). Basically, there is no application today that computers 10 years ago couldn't do. Its just that today they do them (mostly) better and (mostly) faster (I say "mostly" because, for instance, it takes longer for MS-Word to boot on my pentium 100 with 32megs RAM than a word processor did on my Apple ][). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From sprague at VivaNET.com Fri Jun 27 21:26:49 1997 From: sprague at VivaNET.com (Mike Sprague) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Xerox (RE: Lisa's scores) References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20553B314@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33B47669.19FC@VivaNET.com> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > The first GUI system was the Xerox Alto. It was desk-sized. The > commercial model was the Xerox Star, which was somewhat smaller (c.1977) Half right. :-) To my knowledge (and I may be wrong), there is no such thing as a Xerox "Star." Star was simply the name of the software that ran on the computer (a Xerox 8010). It did, however, become common to all the machine a Star, much like people nowdays call a PC their "Windows" box. It really used to annoy me when people would say "Can you star that document to me?", which meant, "Can you mail me that document to me?" Anyway, the Alto and 8010 are related, but are _very_ different machines, and the Alto was never offered commercially (almost was though). The graphical system that ran on the Alto (XDE, or Xerox Development Environment) was updated to run on the 8010's, 6085's, and I understand, even on PC's under Windows a few years back. To my knowledge, Star (which later became Viewpoint) never ran on the Alto. > The book "Fumbling the Future: How Xerox Invented, Then Ignored, the > First Personal Computer" by Douglas Smith and Robert Alexander, states > that Xerox voluntarily offered the UI elements to Steve Jobs. Apple > does not appear to have "stolen" the ideas. > > Kai Hmmm, I haven't read the book, but Xerox certainly fumbled the future on a number of things! Having worked on one of those fumbled things, and used others, it's quite annoying. Anyway, common folklore at Xerox (right or wrong) is that Xerox was showing off the UI to Jobs, not realizing what it had, or that Jobs would want it. I also understand that Jobs hired a number of people who had worked on it away from Xerox, to work on the Lisa. Most feel that while Jobs did not quite steal the UI, it was close enough to be the same thing! :-) ~ Mike From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Fri Jun 27 12:29:35 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <199706272220.AA19235@world.std.com> Message-ID: Nearly every machine I have gets a regular workout, though other than the Amiga's and the newer PC, none of them are really used for anything other than just messing around with. I have been known to use both the Atari-ST and C-128D for telecom duties, as well as using the Atari-ST as a VT-100 terminal connected to one of the 3 serial ports on my Amiga 3000, as well as using a DigiView Gold on the Amiga 1000 for the occasional video capture. Otherwise, I mainly use them for games and for dabbling in the different versions of BASIC. In fact tonight I fired up both the ADAM and one of the TI-99/4A's for a bit. All in all, these systems are every bit as useful as the day the came out, if not more so since a lot of them have things such as SCSI and IDE interfaces available for them that the original designers didn't even dream of. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cerebral at michianatoday.com Fri Jun 27 21:44:00 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <02440020302929@michianatoday.com> At 08:59 AM 6/27/97 BST, you wrote: >> I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a >> modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full >> photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am > >I have used 'modern' PC's (well, at least pentiums with 16 MBytes RAM, >SVGA card, etc), and I know I'm not missing _anything_ by sticking to >classic computers. Let's go through your points. > What I mean is that we must realize that there is only so much you can do with classic computers. after all, if they were the best than why we have faster and better? >'Web pages in full photo quality colour'. Well, I access the web to get >information, not look at pretty pictures. Most of the information I want >is _text_, or at least monochrome graphics (things like IC data sheets). >So I don't need 'photo quality colour'. And if I did, I could easily find well at the moment you dont need it, but its nice to know that you can see it when you need it. >a classic system that could display them. Evans and Sutherland, Grinnell, >Ramtek, I2S, PPL, etc all made high-res colour displays that make most >PC's look like toys. And you can pick one up second-hand for less than an >SVGA card + monitor. SVGA a toy? I used many an apple ][ + and C=64 with 80 col RGB monitors, and I can take only so much eyestrain. sharp graphics make your eyes feel good... also I would like to clarify somthing. I am not a billy gates follower. I despise his efforts and his software. and winsucks 95 is a laugh!! but the issue is machines, and if you run Linux, as I do, that pentium will spring to life! so the PC is not the greatest machine, but if you run software that was properly written, (i.e. not from microsuck) you get fantastic results, that is why I like my commodore 64, it can do alot on 1 MHZ. >'Realistic games'. I don't play many games, but I'll agree that modern >games running on modern hardware do _look_ a lot more realistic than the >text+block graphics we had on home computers 15 years ago. The problem is >that IMHO (and YMMV) the old games are just more fun to play. That's a >personal judgement, though. I have an Atari 2600, and the best racing game is from Acivision called Enduro. >'PPP connections' Oh come on. I've run a PPP client on an _XT_. No problem >at all. I'll happily believe they're available for other old machines as >well. well we all believe, but sadly, this does not always work that way. I have an XT too, and yes you can load a packet driver, but then 640K is not big enough except to run telnet or ftp from. I use my XT as a file server... >'Realaudio' I assume that's some audio standard for modern machines. But Realaudio is a standard, but it is an INTERNET standard for sending LIVE SOUND from any web server. it has many uses, and the fun part of it is that I live in Indiana, and when I lived in St Petersburg FL, there was a good radio station there that I loved, and through Realaudio I can now listen to it here. and this is not just for PC's, it runs on MACs, UNIX Linux, and most Sun machines. >we had good quality audio on PDP11's (thanks to a little board from 3RCC) >in 1976. It's not exactly hard to add a DAC and a DMA engine or even a DSP >to a lot of classic computers (and classic computer != cheap home micro so >there's easily enough RAM space for a reasonable length sample). to me, a PDP11 is WORLDS apart from classic HOME computers, If I had the fortune of actually owing a PDP11, I would use it extensively..... :) also about enough ram space...NOT! I have some software for the C=64 that plays back digital sound files. with the stock 64K of ram, I can hold a 6 second clip. with the 1764 ram expansion with 512K of ram, I can hold a 60 second clip, but no longer than that. >What I'd be missing by going to a modern machine would be : >Documentation. Since I don't just run prepackaged software and plug in >prebuilt hardware, I need good technical manuals. They just don't exist I programmed in BASIC, and that is fun, and I tried 6502 assembler, and almost had a working interrupt handler going, but my brain fried, the opcodes are easy, but remembering memory addresses when deprived of caffeine is hard! the interrupt handler was for a terminal program that I was writing that utilized a 6551 UART in a commodore 64. I love hacking old hardware! and it also had interupt driven multitasking, as in this terminal, you can use the modem and play .sid music files at the same time! that was fun!! now I program in C, and if you do it right, you can make any machine dance to your beat. >for most modern machines >Repairability. I can fix classic computers with no problem at all. Just I have never had any hardware failures in ANY of my machines so far (knock on silicon), with the exception that I accidentally cooked a 6526. >try getting a custom chip for a PC motherboard. And don't tell me to >replace the motherboard - if the PC is a few years old I'd probably have >to replace the CPU and memory as well. that is just the ticket. A brand new 486 motherboard cost $90. with it you get real functionality. I know some who will pay twice that for a doorstop... actually, you can get a decent modern PC together just by scrounging computer shows and bargaining for parts. assembling a system from scratch with old parts is very fun and rewarding. and the reliablity rate for modern chips is very high. in fact the monitor or hard disk probably will die before the motherboard will. also I am speaking of those who NEVER touched anything new, and passing judgment. if you tried the new stuff, and hate it, that is fine, but I can't stand those who never tried it then saying it sux. From cerebral at michianatoday.com Fri Jun 27 21:51:38 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <02513842202954@michianatoday.com> At 07:22 AM 6/27/97 -0800, you wrote: >> > modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full > ^^^^ >> > photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am > ^^^^^ > > >Really? Full photo quality? My early 1940's Speed Graphic makes >4" x 5" (100mm x 125mm) negatives with roughly 160 dpmm resolution. >(Admittedly, with a lens that's stopped down considerably...) >That's roughly 16000 x 20000 pixels, using technology that's over >50 years old. SuperVGA and CRT's have a long, long, way to go before >they catch up. > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > you are technically correct, BUT- viewing a photo on a CRT in 16 million colors is still 100% better than having only 16 colors... From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jun 27 23:00:15 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <199706280400.AA17197@world.std.com> > also about enough ram space...NOT! > I have some software for the C=64 that plays back digital sound files. wit > the stock 64K of ram, I can hold a 6 second clip. with the 1764 ram > expansion with 512K of ram, I can hold a 60 second clip, but no longer tha Funny my s100 crate can playback easily 8mb and using a modified os 32mb of sound. In this case a well designed hard disk system (circa 1982) easily keeps up without eating ram. On a z80 at 4mhz. Oh, the disk size was limited by budget! Even in 1982 hard disks were plenty fast enough to support fast DACs or audio. Allison From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 27 23:53:26 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: which month? In-Reply-To: References: <33B3A663.3AB9@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970627215326.01217070@agora.rdrop.com> At 01:25 PM 6/27/97 -0600, you wrote: >On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > >>I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction of the >>three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: > >>a) the Apple II > >Okay, all sources for the Apple II seem to agree that it was introduced in >April, but what date? From memory I would've said April 17th. I decided >to confirm this with a quick web search and came up with two dates! > >http://www.research.apple.com/extras/history/ > >puts the date at April 20, 1977 while > >http://www.kelleyad.com/histry.htm > >puts the date at April 17, 1977. Both of these sources have the >credentials to be accurate. Which date was it? Surely someone here >knows. Well... will have to find the program to check the dates, but the Apple II was *introduced* at the opening day of the First West Coast Computer Faire in San Francisco. (I was there - Jim Warren had some *great* stories around that event!) It created the biggest buzz at the show as I recall... And then there was that joke that Woz played on Jobs and all of the Altair fans... (but I'll get to that later) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Jun 27 23:56:14 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: BASF Extra 120 tape carthridges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970627215614.0121a780@agora.rdrop.com> At 03:23 PM 6/27/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Can anyone use a mess of BASF Extra 120 (ultra stabilized) tape >carthridges? Are these data type cartridges? And if so, what format? (cassette, DC300/600, etc?) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From cerebral at michianatoday.com Fri Jun 27 23:58:06 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Modern Apps on Old Machines Message-ID: <04580611303330@michianatoday.com> At 02:52 PM 6/27/97 -0700, you wrote: >A different thought - I don't really buy the argument for owning a modern >machine for the purposes of "better" games. But the Web browser thing is >slightly different, being a VERY powerful and useful communication method. I agree with you here, and games are fun, but that depends on what you like. I love the internet, and I learned ALOT from it. sure a shell account with lynx is nice, as I use it for fast FTP, but when I read about a PDP11, it is nice to see a picture of one, rather just text. > >I have heard that the C64 and Atari 8-bit machines now have graphical Web >browsers and PPP clients running on them. The TI community is working on >a TCP/IP system, but we were debating the possibility of a Web browser. I have dreamed of writing one, and I don't know if someone else has done it, and if they did, I would grab a copy right away. The main problem that everyone forgets is that having limited memory is a pain, and TCP/IP alone uses 64K in ONE SOCKET ALONE as a buffer. >The argument I and others made in its defense was, granted the stock >hardware is incapable of SVGA-grade graphical displays, with appropriate >decoding, you can get "close" (with sufficient processing time), and if >you have to "scroll" around to see the entire page, so what? You have a good point there, and it would work sorta, but patience runs thin after awhile, as decoding images at 1 MHZ does take 1 min, times that with 10 or so inlines you will find at every web page, and waiting 10 mins for a page to load would make it a fustrating experiance. heck, on days where there is severe net lag (especially on fridays), it takes 10 mins for the data to arrive even for fast machines! It is a cool idea though, and it would be interesting to see if this can be pulled off. >1. Am I correct in what I have heard of the C64 and Atari 8-bitters? > >2. Is this a reasonable argument for "home computers" being fit out for >browsing? Or is it silly when $2000 (maybe even below $1000) can get you >a Web-capable peecee? You dont have to spend this much to have a fast PC (or MAC), all you need is to hunt around... AND NEVER BUY RETAIL SYSTEMS!!! like packard smell..... > >3. What other apps are there that are REALLY useful for home use that >modern machines have and "home computers" don't? And is is really its not about apps, its about efficincy, and operator comfort. VGA or SVGA is worth it becuse it prevents eyestrain, and you can use your system for longer amounts of time. I used color TV's before when I got started, and serious word processing was painful to the eyes. RGB's are better, but not by much. also its about speed. The ability to cut and paste is underrated, as in serious work, it saves gobs of time. I love command line interfaces, as well as GUI's, but typing long commandlines to just load a directory, its nice just to be able to type LS -l and get the same result. and if you think about it, these nice classic machines we love EVOLVED to be the modern ones we got now, and I understand the resentment of microsnot, as I hate them too, but I can't understand the resentment of the modern machines. Yes some say they cost too much, but that can be solved. I see people go gaga over a PCjr, and while that make a nice collectors item, it is the least usefull home computer EVER made. and yes most apps used for home perposes dont need the latest and greatest, however, a modern machine is far more veratle in the power department, and the classics are more versatle in the hardware department. >impossible to do these tasks on "home computers"? Is it worth the time >and effort (even out of love) to write the software, or even create the >new peripherals, to enable the old iron to do the job? > It is worth the time to develop the software when you need it only if the results are the same if you used somthing already out there on a capable machine. I wrote MANY small utilitys for the Commodore, simply because they did not exist in my area. and while it is fun to do it out of love, it does get tiring reinventing the wheel all the time. more time went into the devleopment than in actual use when it was done. I did write a budget/checkbook balancing program in BASIC, used it a few times, the it got bit rot, because i never had any money left to manage :) all in all, if the machine you use now does all what you want, thats great! but the day WILL come where you just need to have a feature that you have not got now. that is just the way the computing cookie crumbles. From cerebral at michianatoday.com Sat Jun 28 00:09:59 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <05095924803357@michianatoday.com> At 06:20 PM 6/27/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Well, much of this I used to do back around '85 using microvax in color with ^^^^^^^ >a 1280x1024 19" screen! Asa to much of the other stuff it's all hardware >much of which saw it origins on s100, Q and other busses. > >Allison A microVAX or any of the VAXEN is NOT a home computer. I know that PC's were not the first ones to do it and never claimed it, and what I am talking about is the person who still uses his apple ][, and has never touched anything else, saying everything else is junk. sure a Mini workstation can do it, no question about it, but I *KNOW* that a kaypro, apple ][+ C=64, coleco ADAM, 8 bit Ataris and other HOME computers of that era CAN'T handle it. From cerebral at michianatoday.com Sat Jun 28 00:26:59 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <05265941503407@michianatoday.com> At 12:00 AM 6/28/97 -0400, you wrote: > >> also about enough ram space...NOT! >> I have some software for the C=64 that plays back digital sound files. wit >> the stock 64K of ram, I can hold a 6 second clip. with the 1764 ram >> expansion with 512K of ram, I can hold a 60 second clip, but no longer tha > >Funny my s100 crate can playback easily 8mb and using a modified os 32mb >of sound. In this case a well designed hard disk system (circa 1982) >easily keeps up without eating ram. On a z80 at 4mhz. Oh, the disk size >was limited by budget! Even in 1982 hard disks were plenty fast enough to >support fast DACs or audio. > >Allison That is because the software you run want work well enough at 1 MHZ... and if you want to edit, that is where the heap requirement goes up. From scott at saskatoon.com Sat Jun 28 01:17:41 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, I guess I should add my bit to this thread. (I've been waiting for the appropriate time to tell this story :-) First, I have to admit that my two main computers are an Alpha 166 and a K5-133 both running Linux. I don't use my classics on a daily basis, but they do come in handy... In order to feed myself, I maintain several web-servers, one of which is connected via a 128k dedicated isdn line. About 6 months ago I came home from working on this machine, and tried to pull my mail off of it. It was then I realized that I had accidentally brought down the isdn link. Well, I was prepared for this... I had an analog modem on a dial-up line into this machine for just this type of problem. Unfortunately though, I had recently got ADSL internet into my home (Comes into my ethernet) and had got rid of my modem. I still had an external 14.4 modem hooked it up to my Apple //e, though. I quickly used it to dial into the server to bring it back up. So yes, I do use my classic machines--not on a daily basis, but that Apple saved me a trip. ttyl srw From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sat Jun 28 01:37:18 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Source for Syquest 44mb cartridges. Message-ID: Recently I got a SyQuest SQ555 Removable drive (44mb/SCSI) for free. I have been looking for cartridges that fir this drive but so far no luck. (Well, I did find one place that still sold them but they wanted $40 a piece for 'em). If anyone knows of a cheap(er) place to get these babies, please let me know! Thanks, les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From kyrrin at wizards.net Sat Jun 28 02:25:34 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Archiving & other news Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970628002534.00f7bcc8@mail.wizards.net> Well, I see some rumblings in the group about archiving (among other things) EPROMs and other such chips. I think it's a great idea! I will assist as much as I can, considering that I certainly have the equipment for it (Data I/O UniSite, current rev). I can read or program just about anything that comes in a DIP package that is programmable to begin with (including PALs if the security fuse isn't blown). In other news... A Scrounging I Will Go! I'm off to the Bay Area as of Saturday next week (the 5th) for a major see-what's-changed trip, to say nothing of hitting two swap meets (Livermore and Foothill) and seeing what other kinds of trouble I can get into. Sam, watch for an E-mail. I'd like to get in touch with you when I hit the area. For those who have visited my web page, I'll be giving the scrounging section a major facelift and update after I get back. Caveat Emperor! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sat Jun 28 02:19:14 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: which month? References: Message-ID: <33B4BAF2.50E7@ndirect.co.uk> Scott Walde wrote: > > On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > >I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction of the > >three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: > > >a) the Apple II > > Okay, all sources for the Apple II seem to agree that it was introduced in > April, but what date? From memory I would've said April 17th. I decided > to confirm this with a quick web search and came up with two dates! > > http://www.research.apple.com/extras/history/ > > puts the date at April 20, 1977 while > > http://www.kelleyad.com/histry.htm > > puts the date at April 17, 1977. Both of these sources have the > credentials to be accurate. Which date was it? Surely someone here > knows. > > ttfn > srw Thank you for taking the trouble....now the next question: - how do I recognize an Appl II from a II+ ? Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 28 09:26:54 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Archiving & other news In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970628002534.00f7bcc8@mail.wizards.net> from "Bruce Lane" at Jun 28, 97 00:25:34 am Message-ID: <9706281326.AA21254@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 380 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970628/45879be9/attachment-0001.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 28 09:40:21 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: which month? In-Reply-To: <33B4BAF2.50E7@ndirect.co.uk> from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 28, 97 07:19:14 am Message-ID: <9706281340.AA06930@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1324 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970628/6c5fc9e2/attachment-0001.ksh From MPritchard at ensemble.net Sat Jun 28 09:08:58 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: which month? Message-ID: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF340526@consulting.ensemble.net> I have a book about marketing, written by a Tandy VP which has a large chapter on the birh of the TRS-80. He mentioned the day of the first produced unit, (sept 15th I think) and game totals for the first months or two (It seemed they only managed 3 computer a day for the first week or two). -Mp > -----Original Message----- > From: bwit@pobox.com [SMTP:bwit@pobox.com] > Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 11:51 AM > To: 'classiccmp@u.washington.edu' > Subject: RE: which month? > > > IIRC the TRS-80 was introduced in September 1977. > > ---------- > From: e.tedeschi > Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 7:39 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: which month? > > I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction > of the > three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: > > a) the Apple II > b) the Tandy TRS-80 > c) the Commodore Pet > > I need them for a book on collecting home computers I am > researching > for. > > Thank you > > enrico > -- > ================================================================ > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > website > ================================================================ > visit Brighton: > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jun 28 09:13:11 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: weekend additions Message-ID: <970628101309_408583751@emout07.mail.aol.com> i need some help on what i found this weekend. a trs80 model III 48k. came with trsdos disk, but i havent tested it yet. can anyone point to a source of software. now i need a model ][ to fill in the blanks! a digital microvax ][ it's big. i thought a ps2 model 80 was big, but this eclipses it. not tested yet, but i need info on what it is, what it did, and is it worth keeping? being used to the pc world i didnt see monitor/keyb connections. should i get an ascii terminal to conenct to it to use it? it has a door on the front with something behind it (tape?) but it's locked down. if anyone can point me to a faq id be grateful. there was plenty of xt's and the old pc peripheral expansion unit i might get also. total cost <$20. david From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 28 09:42:48 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Modern Apps on Old Machines Message-ID: <199706281442.AA07223@world.std.com> > lynx is nice, as I use it for fast FTP, but when I read about a PDP11, it > nice to see a picture of one, rather just text. Most people were running altairs and the like in 78... I was a friend started with one in '76. But in 78 he decided a H-11 bas a better deal. H-11 was a DEC LSI-11 cpu card with heathkit made boards around them that were DEC look alikes and a OS that was RT-11 look alike. All of a sudden minies weren't too big or out of range. > everyone forgets is that having limited memory is a pain, > and TCP/IP alone uses 64K in ONE SOCKET ALONE as a buffer. That was true even of most PDP-11s. What the -11 (most minies) had were more efficient IO even if it was floppies. > You have a good point there, and it would work sorta, but patience runs th > after awhile, as decoding images at 1 MHZ does take 1 min, times that wit > 10 or so inlines you will find at every web page, and waiting 10 mins for This is a problem for me with the 486dx/50 and 33.6 modem. Most fo the images unless compressed really do not require much processing (GIFs). > its not about apps, its about efficincy, and operator comfort. VGA or SVG > is worth it becuse it prevents eyestrain, and you can use your system for > longer amounts of time. I used color TV's before when I got started, and > serious word processing was painful to the eyes. RGB's are better, but no I've been using h-19s, vt100s for years to get past the TV displays that generally are low res. > by much. also its about speed. The ability to cut and paste is underrated > as in serious work, it saves gobs of time. I love command line interfaces I could cut and past using editors for cp/m back in '80. Cut and past is an editing feature not a system capability. PCs running windows make it latent on the screen all of the time, thats the difference. When some one said a home machine in say...'80 it was appleII, trs80, S100 or SS50(6800/6809). At that time people that had PDP-8s, -11s, DG novas were scarce. By '86 most of the minies were old and getting accessable cheap and not all were large either!. Move to 1990, people are collecting vaxes (the 780 was new in '78) as most of the 7xx series systems were going to junk. the 730s/750s though slow were small enough to consider for a home. What's forgotten is by 1990 a lot of stuff was over 5-10 years old. Now in 1997, microvaxes (ca 1986-7) are for dumpster diving and these little gems are not slow nor are they under powered and they had VGA or better capabilities and they are collectable. Now what you said is true of many systems. I'd never try to run a modem program on my TI99 at faster than 1200 as it will not keep up. Then again it was by the standards of the time very very slow! It was neat. My systems for the late '70s were s100 for flexibility and speed. I found myself looking at canned systems like TRS80, apple and felt most fo the time like I was running a fuel dragster compared to that. But I was running networks and the like in '81 because I knew of them and could design my own to save a buck (they existed for home computers but were expensive). I got my first PDP-11 in '83 for FREE because the lsi-11 boards and memory were old! It was my first save! The -11 introduced me to small minies, and big performance. Some required a scope and series debugging to get them going but the cost offset that (free). It would be years (1991) before PCs would eclipse the power of the various PDP-11s (many of the 11/23 design) and the software maturity behind it. Many computer consumers knew they wanted performance. It was minies where more could be found. I'd point out that many of the minies were disguised. Alpha Microsystems(ca 1977) had the same chip set as the LSI-11 with a slightly different instruction set modification and was s100, still the same capability. There was the Western Digital Pascal Microengine, Marinechip (PDP-11 in s100), pdt-11/150, Pro350 to name a few that were either pre-pc or on the PC introduction cusp.While home computing was commodores and apples and trs80 they were the appliance machines for many. There was always a core of those that felt they were nice and had good ideas but, they wanted more. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 28 09:42:55 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <199706281442.AA07298@world.std.com> > A microVAX or any of the VAXEN is NOT a home computer. I know that PC's > were not the first ones to do it and never claimed it, and what I am talki Define home computer? In the early days of PCs(xt class) pro350s, PDP11 with color graphics and hard disk. These were single user multitasking systems in the same price range asna loaded xt. > about is the person who still uses his apple ][, and has never touched > anything else, saying everything else is junk. sure a Mini workstation ca > do it, no question about it, but I *KNOW* that a kaypro, apple ][+ C=64, > coleco ADAM, 8 bit Ataris and other HOME computers of that era CAN'T handl Thein lies my point. These were the low end of the spectrum, low cost and performance at the low end of the spectrum for what the cpu used could do. Though the apple was one of the better ones. Really, an ADAM and interestig machine uses a z80 it was slow compared to many due to how it was implemented. Same for many others. C64s/128 are fast machines... throttled to slow by a slow serial link to the disk. Every one of those machines were interesting but crippled perfomance wise. Granted often it was done for cost reasons. Even the kaypro, while fairly fast has the slowest screen on the planet. I say that lovingly as I have one but while it can transfer files at 9600 if it writes to screen 2400 may be too fast. This is not an inditement of their collectability or other interesting ideas they brought forward. It is a cold assessment of their performance when measured against their respective CPU standards (1980 z80-4mhz, 6502-2mhz, 6800-2mhz, 6809-2mhz, ti9900-3.3mhz, 8086/8-5mhz...) and what they could do when run at that performance level. So when you say the ti99/4a was to slow to do real IP or multiuser(acceptably) it was the TI99/4a not the 9900 cpu or other 9900 designs which could. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 28 10:00:04 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: which month? Message-ID: <199706281500.AA19094@world.std.com> > I have a book about marketing, written by a Tandy VP which has a large > chapter on the birh of the TRS-80. He mentioned the day of the first > produced unit, (sept 15th I think) and game totals for the first months > or two (It seemed they only managed 3 computer a day for the first week > or two). The august/september was the dates!. Also the first few months were a learning experience for TANDY ftworth as they didn't know how to properly handle mos devices, inline QC and do testing non destructively. The early yeilds were horrendously low! The dry air and mishandling ment most of the mos and much ttl were no good by time the were in the board or were killed on the board. I vaguly remember saying when I saw the way things were beign done "you have got to be kidding!" and several people stated investigating ESD procedure and manufacturing QC. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 28 10:00:12 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: weekend additions Message-ID: <199706281500.AA19218@world.std.com> > a digital microvax ][ I assume you man a MicroVAXII, only apple used the ][. > it's big. i thought a ps2 model 80 was big, but this eclipses it. not test > yet, but i need info on what it is, what it did, and is it worth keeping? Ba23, ba123 or ba213 box? There were also the 1cuft vaxen (vs2000). IF you think the vax was big the 21" color monitor dwarfed it! > being used to the pc world i didnt see monitor/keyb connections. should i > an ascii terminal to conenct to it to use it? it has a door on the front w > something behind it (tape?) but it's locked down. if anyone can point me t > faq id be grateful. Around back of the unit. Depending on version it was terminal (vt100/220/320...) or vr290/320 monitor mouse and keyboard. Allison From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Sat Jun 28 10:11:18 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: which month? In-Reply-To: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF340526@consulting.ensemble.net> Message-ID: What was the name of that book? Wasn't it something about a mouse? Like, To Catch a Mouse, Make a Noise Like A Cheese? Curious to know. Thanks, CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Matt Pritchard wrote: > I have a book about marketing, written by a Tandy VP which has a large > chapter on the birh of the TRS-80. He mentioned the day of the first > produced unit, (sept 15th I think) and game totals for the first months > or two (It seemed they only managed 3 computer a day for the first week > or two). > -Mp > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: bwit@pobox.com [SMTP:bwit@pobox.com] > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 11:51 AM > > To: 'classiccmp@u.washington.edu' > > Subject: RE: which month? > > > > > > IIRC the TRS-80 was introduced in September 1977. > > > > ---------- > > From: e.tedeschi > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 7:39 AM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: which month? > > > > I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction > > of the > > three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: > > > > a) the Apple II > > b) the Tandy TRS-80 > > c) the Commodore Pet > > > > I need them for a book on collecting home computers I am > > researching > > for. > > > > Thank you > > > > enrico > > -- > > ================================================================ > > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > > website > > ================================================================ > > visit Brighton: > > > > > From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sat Jun 28 10:31:57 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Computer Usage & Commodore internet... References: <199706280702.AAA12803@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33B52E6D.3335@goldrush.com> Well some of my collection gets a good workout. The most notable is the Commodore 64 running my BBS, the Silicon Realms, which has been on-line for just over 10 years using 64s (this is the second 64, before it the BBS was running on my then only 64 and my 128 for a while, all the original computers still work.) I would say that this BBS is probably one of the most stable low-end BBSs it can run litterally for weeks (it is networked to other boards, mind you) without nary a crash. Nowadays I can bump my commie BBS to 14.4k and have a 20mghz accelerator to keep up with the big bards, but alot of that stuff isn't considered classic yet... Across the room (more like spin around in the chair) is the 128, which I still use to program stuff on as well as create disks for people and stuff, lately it has seen increased use. A PET and a couple 64s made it out of storage for my last BBS gathering and helped entertain attendees. (Many of the IBM gamers fondly remembered and played on the 64s for a while.) I think I'll bring more classics to future ones, (I hope to have asteroids for the Atari by then, it has a 4-player game option). ------------ Currently most of the Commodore 64/128 users on the internet are using terminals and connecting via provider's shell-accounts. There is a version of SLIP for the Commodore and also a HTML viewer (off-line from what I gather), but more and more word on bigger and better things coming "real soon now". The Wave, a terminal for the GEOS environment is supposed to have text HTML viewing capabilities, graphics is a pretty big hurdle for our little machines, it's not in the size per se (images can be scaled down), but in the volume of processing these huge image files will require, many of which are 2 to 5 times our computer's memory! But that never stopped the determined hacker. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Jun 28 10:59:45 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: which month? In-Reply-To: <33B4BAF2.50E7@ndirect.co.uk> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970628085945.006ecbd0@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:19 AM 6/28/97 +0000, you wrote: >Thank you for taking the trouble....now the next question: > >- how do I recognize an Appl II from a II+ ? Well... the most direct (and obvious B^} ) way is from the name plate. If it does not say "plus" in green letters, it is (or was) not. But more correctly, (AIR) the Apple II was equipped with the Integer BASIC roms, and the II Plus with Applesoft BASIC roms. To add to the confusion, you can look at the logic board to the left of the RAM array, and if there are jumper blocks marked (in some combinations) "4K", "16K", then you also have an earlier revision motherboard (and more likely a II than a Plus). -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 28 12:34:47 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: More Apple motherboard details In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970628085945.006ecbd0@agora.rdrop.com> from "Jim Willing" at Jun 28, 97 08:59:45 am Message-ID: <9706281634.AA14069@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1740 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970628/118ca5f3/attachment-0001.ksh From maynard at jmg.com Sat Jun 28 12:24:35 1997 From: maynard at jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: <02440020302929@michianatoday.com> Message-ID: [followup text throughout document] On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, tiborj wrote: > At 08:59 AM 6/27/97 BST, you wrote: > >> I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a > >> modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full > >> photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am > > > >I have used 'modern' PC's (well, at least pentiums with 16 MBytes RAM, > >SVGA card, etc), and I know I'm not missing _anything_ by sticking to > >classic computers. Let's go through your points. > > > What I mean is that we must realize that there is only so much you can do > with classic computers. after all, if they were the best than why we have > faster and better? > I don't think there's a single person on this list who hasn't used a modern PC, with or without Microsoft Software. As for UNIX implemetations on the PC, I certainly remember XENIX running on a 286 many years back. Mini Linux currently runs at about .02 bogomips on an XT. The biggest advance in PC architecture isn't the cheap Memory, cheap high res cards, and cheap VLSI specialty chips... it was the 386 with functional memory protection. Big deal. That said, a 386 these days is usually about as cheap as a 'classic' 8 bit machine - mostly because at a certain point a computer just can't *get* any cheaper - and will run Linux or *BSD wonderfully. Big advantage here over Atari and Amiga 68000 based hardware is the high availability of dirt cheap networking and disk hardware... other than that, I'll take the 68000 based stuff any day as a personal preferance. Here's an interesting idea, now that mini Linux seems to be up and running, there appears to be a good code base for porting it over to other old 8 bit and 16 bit chips. The TI-99/4a, RS COCO, PDP-11, and old S-100 based z80 (with MMU) boxes appear to be good candidates. Yes... there is *lots* of machine specific code in the mini Linux implementation. It would be a good deal more than just getting the boot loader up and running then tweaking and compiling the kernel. Still it might be a fun hack! I have a friend who's attempting a 3b2 Linux port single handedly... why not the Color Computer with it's fairly powerful 6809? > >'Web pages in full photo quality colour'. Well, I access the web to get > >information, not look at pretty pictures. Most of the information I want > >is _text_, or at least monochrome graphics (things like IC data sheets). > >So I don't need 'photo quality colour'. And if I did, I could easily find > > well at the moment you dont need it, but its nice to know that you can see > it when you need it. > > >a classic system that could display them. Evans and Sutherland, Grinnell, > >Ramtek, I2S, PPL, etc all made high-res colour displays that make most > >PC's look like toys. And you can pick one up second-hand for less than an > >SVGA card + monitor. > > SVGA a toy? I used many an apple ][ + and C=64 with 80 col RGB monitors, and > I can take only so much eyestrain. sharp graphics make your eyes feel good... > also I would like to clarify somthing. I am not a billy gates follower. I > despise his efforts and his software. and winsucks 95 is a laugh!! but > the issue is machines, and if you run Linux, as I do, that pentium will > spring to life! so the PC is not the greatest machine, but if you run > software that was properly written, (i.e. not from microsuck) you get > fantastic results, that is why I like my commodore 64, it can do alot on 1 MHZ. Yes yes yes yes. SVGA is a *TOY* compared to what was available to those with million dollar budgets 20 years ago. The old hardware ran slower in clock speed but was most certainly capable of *extream* high resolution. I don't expect 2048 x 2048 displays for a few years yet on PC's, but if you were the military with a money is no object budget in 1975, you better believe such hardware was available. I like my PC just fine as well, and won't argue about processor capability, RAM requirements, and the like in comparison to a TRS-80 MOdel 1 for instance. However, the majority of software titiles around today are offshoots of software commonly available back then.... Visicalc and Wordstar are but two examples. And yes, freeware UNIX implmentations are about the most exciting thing happening on the PC today from a hobbyist hacker standpoint. The wonderful thing about Linux and NetBSD is the wide architecture support, not just the fact that serious development tools are now available for free on the PC. They are *also* availble to Atari ST fans, Amiga fans, old Macintosh hardware, Sun3 hardware, cheap Sparc and Alpha platforms... and like I suggested before, I wouldn't doubt for a minute the possibility of newer ports to classic PDP, VAX, Apollo, PRIME, and 8 bit machines. There is just so much usable hardware out there waiting for a modern OS.... [snip - re: games] Game designers have strongly benefitted from higher processor speeds and cheap RAM. Look at game consols like Nintendo 64 and Sega... they display about the same 320x200 pixel resolution, but have a much larger color pallete and much faster display hardware. The games look great! It's not surprising that newer PC and Mac hardware would also benefit from their advances. > > >'PPP connections' Oh come on. I've run a PPP client on an _XT_. No problem > >at all. I'll happily believe they're available for other old machines as > >well. > well we all believe, but sadly, this does not always work that way. I have > an XT too, and yes you can load a packet driver, but then 640K is not big > enough except to run telnet or ftp from. I use my XT as a file server... > [snip] > to me, a PDP11 is WORLDS apart from classic HOME computers, If I had the > fortune of actually owing a PDP11, I would use it extensively..... :) > PDP-11 hardware is still widely available. You could build youself a functinal Qbus LSI-11/73 or 83 for less than $500 easy. Most of this hardware is sitting in old factories and still in production. There are many hardware outlets out there such as ELI in cambridge MA, which support and provide access to this old stuff... I would attempt to buy a non functional machine (or functional if possible) from some company about to toss it, and then upgrade from some used MINI supplier. Expect a lower heating bill and a *MUCH* higher electric bill if this is in the plans... ;-) You might also want to think of a decent used microVAX.... wonderful machine based on the same Qbus. [snip - 486's are cheap] Yup, can't argue with that. J. Maynard Gelinas From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sat Jun 28 12:51:33 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: DOS 2.11 software (fwd) Message-ID: OK guys, here is a request I got, maybe someone can help this poor guy! Thanks, Les ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 08:26:19 -0400 (EDT) From: KenpoKidJB@aol.com To: more@camlaw.Rutgers.EDU Subject: software hey, i went to your web site, but didn't find what i wanted. i'm looking for dos 2.11 programs that will run off of a 3.5" floppy. most specifically, i'm especially looking for games. any kind will do, but even more specifically, i'm looking for text driven adventure games, as my kaypro 2000 LCD screen doesn't do very well with graphics!! so, let me know what you can do for me.. i really appreciate it. Jeremiah From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 28 12:52:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Panasonic Handhelds Message-ID: PANASONIC HANDHELD UPDATE: This is the latest message from Mike who has the hundreds of Panasonic HandHeld computers. In case its not obvious what's going on, I put in an offer of $10 each for 50, $9 each for 100, $8 each for 150, etc. I don't have $2000 lying around with which to buy them all up. I have a plan, but first read what Mike had to say: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:39:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikeooo1@aol.com To: dastar@crl.com Subject: Re: EPROM Burners re: Classic Computers Dear Sam, I believe the total number of HHC's available will be about 400.Based on your offer I assume that for 150 of the units you would be willing to pay at the rate of $10 for the first 50,$9 for the next 50, $8 for the next 50 and $7 for the next 50 whcih would come to $1700 for 200 units.Would you be interested in 300 units for $2000 even?To make the offer even sweeter I'll throw in the memory expander trays with each unit.The cost for each tray alone was well over $100 when they were purchased,as well as a quantity of the MCM 68674 8K eprom chips that the programs were written on. As always Best Regards, Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ END FORWARD So here's my plan...anyone and everyone who is interested, reply to ME (do not reply to classiccmp! People will hate you and want to drown your pets!) telling me how many you want. Do this soon. I will save all of your e-mails and then at the end of say, 10 days I will tally up the total and make Mike an offer. So again... Reply to ME only (dastar@crl.com) Tell me HOW MANY of the Panasonic HandHeld Computers you want. Do it SOON. You have about 10 days. Price will be NO MORE THAN $10 EACH. I'll get back to everyone in 10 days or so. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sat Jun 28 13:10:50 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Here's an interesting idea, now that mini Linux seems to be up and > running, there appears to be a good code base for porting it over to other > old 8 bit and 16 bit chips. The TI-99/4a, RS COCO, PDP-11, and old S-100 > based z80 (with MMU) boxes appear to be good candidates. Yes... there is > *lots* of machine specific code in the mini Linux implementation. It > would be a good deal more than just getting the boot loader up and running > then tweaking and compiling the kernel. Still it might be a fun hack! I > have a friend who's attempting a 3b2 Linux port single handedly... why not I think I have met this fellow somewhere. Is his name Dave or something like that? If I remember rightly, he just did a Linux port for some other machine (forget) and gave a speech about it at the Linux Convention in North Carolina a few months back. As for the 3B2 port, what kind of 3B2 are we talking about? 300/400 series or more closer to a 1000? Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 28 13:23:14 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Interesting S100 boards Message-ID: I just discovered some *VERY* interesting S100 boards that I didn't realize I had in my box 'o S-100 boards. They seem to be some kind of Atari development/prototyping system. The boards are: 65xx Emulator, part no. 100-015-2, (c) 1983 Atari [this is the PCB only] Trace Memory Interface, part no, 100-003-2, (c) 1983 Atari 6502 Processor, part no. 100-003-2, has a 6502 and some other stuff, such as a clock speed DIP switch (1, 2, 4 MHZ settings), some RAM, a couple ribbon cable connectors. I have 2 of these boards but one is incomplete (does not have all the chips the other one does). All have the Atari name and logo and a copyright date of 1983. Also have these: the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1 California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] Any idea what this stuff is? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jun 28 13:40:03 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <199706281840.AA28882@world.std.com> > Here's an interesting idea, now that mini Linux seems to be up and > running, there appears to be a good code base for porting it over to othe > old 8 bit and 16 bit chips. The TI-99/4a, RS COCO, PDP-11, and old S-100 > based z80 (with MMU) boxes appear to be good candidates. Yes... there is UZI unix was on the z80 already so it's doable. > Yes yes yes yes. SVGA is a *TOY* compared to what was available > to those with million dollar budgets 20 years ago. The old hardware ran > slower in clock speed but was most certainly capable of *extream* high By 1986 1280x1024 color was about $25k and small (allowing for the 19" monitor). MicrovaxII/gpx... now you can find them in dumpsters. > PDP-11 hardware is still widely available. You could build > youself a functinal Qbus LSI-11/73 or 83 for less than $500 easy. Most o > this hardware is sitting in old factories and still in production. There > are many hardware outlets out there such as ELI in cambridge MA, which At $500 I'd have a killer PDP11. Most of mine are scrap/salvage or trades. I'm letting a PDP11/23b go for very little as I have one and they are common enough and powerful enough to run multiuser OS or one of the unixes out there. > ;-) You might also want to think of a decent used microVAX.... wonderful > machine based on the same Qbus. I got a working vs2000 from someone elses dumpster trip so they are common and they can do eithernet, PPP, 1280x1024 graphics (color was an option), 6-16mb of ram in a 1cuft box witha 160w powersupply (small PC!). The real trick is getting a disk (rd54 was the largest supported at 150mb) as SCSI is there but not bootable other than DEC tk50 tape. The other problem is an OS though DEC has made VMS6.1 available with a free license, compared to VMS DOS is a toy! There are people doing a netBSD for it as well. Other boxsized vaxen are 3100 and friends most being very high performance (2.5-3VUP, a 780=1VUP). larger MicrovaxII configs are common and generally free to cheap and most of the same thing apply save for bigger. Even the BA123 boxed VAXen are under 500w in practice, since most pcs are in the 230-270 watt range it's not as bad as it would seem. Other small vaxen in the "Sbox" incluude the 3400, 3500. they are faster and still pre-1990.. The older Vax 780/1/2/5 systems are three good sized racks plus and serious power. The later smaller (slower) 730s are one to two short (40") racks and under 1000w for mall configs (save 1 or 2 ra80/81 disks). RA81 is 200mb IMS. The next faster was the 750 and that can also run on household power but, just barely. Allison From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sat Jun 28 17:29:32 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Interesting S100 boards References: Message-ID: <33B5904C.17EB@unix.aardvarkol.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > 65xx Emulator, part no. 100-015-2, (c) 1983 Atari [this is the PCB only] > Trace Memory Interface, part no, 100-003-2, (c) 1983 Atari > 6502 Processor, part no. 100-003-2, has a 6502 and some other stuff, such > as a clock speed DIP switch (1, 2, 4 MHZ settings), some RAM, a couple > ribbon cable connectors. I have 2 of these boards but one is incomplete > (does not have all the chips the other one does). > All have the Atari name and logo and a copyright date of 1983. From the dates, it looks like it might be some kind of developement board for the XL series. How much RAM does it have? The 800XL had 64k I believe. It sounds like a cool setup! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ccm at sentex.net Sat Jun 28 14:54:00 1997 From: ccm at sentex.net (Commercial Computing Museum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Historical Research Message-ID: <199706281954.PAA23890@granite.sentex.net> Nope no serial number info. Thanks for the encouragement about the CD version. Kevin Stumpf From ccm at sentex.net Sat Jun 28 14:56:08 1997 From: ccm at sentex.net (Commercial Computing Museum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Domestic Commercial Computing Power Message-ID: <199706281956.PAA24039@granite.sentex.net> Great idea to include peripherals. Never thought of that. I would rather you see a sample of the book before making a purchase decision. Please reply with your postal address and I send a few pages - don't have scanned copies for faxing or emailing. Kevin Stumpf From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 28 15:09:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Interesting S100 boards In-Reply-To: <33B5904C.17EB@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > 65xx Emulator, part no. 100-015-2, (c) 1983 Atari [this is the PCB only] > > Trace Memory Interface, part no, 100-003-2, (c) 1983 Atari > > 6502 Processor, part no. 100-003-2, has a 6502 and some other stuff, such > > as a clock speed DIP switch (1, 2, 4 MHZ settings), some RAM, a couple > > ribbon cable connectors. I have 2 of these boards but one is incomplete > > (does not have all the chips the other one does). > > All have the Atari name and logo and a copyright date of 1983. > > From the dates, it looks like it might be some kind of developement > board for the XL series. How much RAM does it have? The 800XL had 64k > I believe. It sounds like a cool setup! Just took a closer look. The 6502 Processor board doesn't have any RAM after all, just 74xx chips. The Trace Memory Interface has 3 Intersil 6402 chips on it. What are those? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jun 27 18:08:36 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Modern Apps on Old Machines Message-ID: <199706282155.OAA12937@mx2.u.washington.edu> Let's not forget that old machines were, in their day, designed to be used by *mainstream* users. So, let's look at the people who would -- nowadays -- use old machines. 1) Newbies/inexperienced users. Are these people willing to put up inadequate documentation, unbelievably klunky software with *no* tech support? No -- no more than they were willing to when the machines were new. 2) Power users? most would laugh at the idea of using a "relic". They would be no more caught dead with one than a photographic toy-boy would with a point-and-shoot camera (altho' many pros, with nothing to prove, use P&S's as cheap backup cameras. Don't tell anyone ) 3) People who love it? few and far between. Sure, you can do e-mail, use lynx to check out the web on an XT (I cheat...I use a 386SX lap top with a 2400 baud modem). Using an old machine to perform routine tasks -- tasks for which the machines were originally designed and sold -- in no way ennobles the person who does so...it's just a hobby, rife with the same inconveniences that plague any undertaking. Most people have some sort of hobby, (altho' usually not as technical) and go through the same inconveniences we do, working with their love. I do a fair amount of photographic retouching on my P-133. I need large amounts of disk space (up to 30 MB per), memory, processing speed -- otherwise, I just can't do it. (I can't just go have a cup of coffee.) I do publication and page layout, and WSYWIG is an enormous convenience. (sure, LaTeX on the VAX gives me nice output. Give me Microsoft Publisher to get work done a lot faster...I have to feed my family.) As an engineer, I used to do finite element analysis on rubber products. Running on a 486-50 (the fastest available at the time) a single job would run overnight. Try *that* on a PDP-11! The point? (He finally gets to one!)Many tasks can be accomplished easily on an XT running 1-2-3 or QEDIT -- sure. But, many jobs are now possible to do on a garden-variety PC (mac) which were impossible to perform on older machines. From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jun 27 18:13:07 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Video game machine/Computer With 6800 Processor Message-ID: <199706282155.OAA28663@mx5.u.washington.edu> > It came out approx at the same time as the Atari 400/800 series > (78-79?) > > I remember seeing an ad on it and the heading of the ad was > "imagination machine". Mattel? From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jun 28 18:36:47 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Video game machine/Computer With 6800 Processor In-Reply-To: <199706282155.OAA28663@mx5.u.washington.edu> from "PG Manney" at Jun 27, 97 07:13:07 pm Message-ID: <9706282236.AA20206@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 204 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970628/6c17db7e/attachment-0001.ksh From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sat Jun 28 22:41:16 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: C= 16 & Plus/4 cartridges References: Message-ID: <33B5D95C.3D47@unix.aardvarkol.com> For the first time since I actively started collecting old systems and the software and peripherals, I finally came across some program cartridges for the C-16 & Plus/4 today. They came from a guy who does a flea market each weekend and who keeps an eye out for 8bit stuff, and he picked them up with me in mind. They are 'Strange Odyssey' and 'Jack Attack'. Anyway, my question is, since these are the only ones I've ever run across, other than the cartridge that shipped with the C-16, were there many made for these machines? Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 28 19:25:19 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <1917@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > BUT- > viewing a photo on a CRT in 16 million colors is still 100% better than > having only 16 colors... There was a thing that came out in 1979/1980 called an I2S model 70 image processor. It used (in at least one configuration) _30_ bits per pixel, although only at a resolution of 512*512 pixels. If you're only used to home micros I can understand why you think old machines can't display 'photo-quality' images, but there were plenty of larger machines that are now turning up second-hand at prices that collectors can afford that have significant graphics abilities. -tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 28 19:31:17 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <1918@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <02440020302929@michianatoday.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > At 08:59 AM 6/27/97 BST, you wrote: > >> I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a > >> modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full > >> photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am > > > >I have used 'modern' PC's (well, at least pentiums with 16 MBytes RAM, > >SVGA card, etc), and I know I'm not missing _anything_ by sticking to > >classic computers. Let's go through your points. > > > What I mean is that we must realize that there is only so much you can do > with classic computers. after all, if they were the best than why we have > faster and better? And there's only so much you can do with PC's :-) Seriously, It's obvious that the _real_ top end today is faster than the top end 10 years ago. It's also obvious that the 'home computer' of today (which is probably a pentium PC) is better than the home computer of 10 eyars ago (say a Commodore 64). But it's not at all obvious that the home computer of today is any better than a 10 year old top-end personal workstation or a minicomputer, or a number of other things. And those are turning up very cheaply if you know where to look. > > >'Web pages in full photo quality colour'. Well, I access the web to get > >information, not look at pretty pictures. Most of the information I want > >is _text_, or at least monochrome graphics (things like IC data sheets). > >So I don't need 'photo quality colour'. And if I did, I could easily find > > well at the moment you dont need it, but its nice to know that you can see > it when you need it. I don't necessarily buy hardware on the grounds that I _might_ need the facilities one day. As what I already have does all I need, then I see no reason to upgrade (downgrade?) And if I did ever need to display a 'photo-quality' image, I can find a few systems around here (all over 10 years old) that could do it trivially. > >a classic system that could display them. Evans and Sutherland, Grinnell, > >Ramtek, I2S, PPL, etc all made high-res colour displays that make most > >PC's look like toys. And you can pick one up second-hand for less than an > >SVGA card + monitor. > > SVGA a toy? I used many an apple ][ + and C=64 with 80 col RGB monitors, and Compared to the machines I've named, SVGA is a toy... > I can take only so much eyestrain. sharp graphics make your eyes feel good... This, alas shows how little you know about the state of graphics 10 years ago Give me a break. I am _NOT_ talking about home micros. I am talking about professional graphics displays with hardware anti-alliasing of displayed objects. I am talking about 512*512*30 bit images. I am talking about broadcast-quality TV images (if you should need to go to such a low scan rate). I am talking about 3D displays with LCD spectacles. Etc, Etc, Etc. I've had more than my fair share of eyestrain from impossible-to-converge SVGA monitors. I've battled with the service manuals for _hours_ on some of them and not been able to get the convergence right. I'm then pleased that Barco, Fimi, Sony (the older ones at least), Philips, Moniterm, KNE, etc, etc, etc did make decent, easy-to-set-up monitors 10 years ago or more. [...] > >we had good quality audio on PDP11's (thanks to a little board from 3RCC) > >in 1976. It's not exactly hard to add a DAC and a DMA engine or even a DSP > >to a lot of classic computers (and classic computer != cheap home micro so > >there's easily enough RAM space for a reasonable length sample). > > to me, a PDP11 is WORLDS apart from classic HOME computers, If I had the > fortune of actually owing a PDP11, I would use it extensively..... :) AFAIK, this is a classic computers list, and not a classic home computers list Anyway the PDP11 is a home computer now. I know dozens of people who run one or more at home. I've payed a lot less for any of my PDP11's that you'd pay for a pentium motherboard + CPU. That's complete PDP11's with disks, realtime I/O, terminals, graphics options, SCSI interfaces, etc, etc, etc. > >for most modern machines > >Repairability. I can fix classic computers with no problem at all. Just > I have never had any hardware failures in ANY of my machines so far (knock > on silicon), with the exception that I accidentally cooked a 6526. > Maybe I've been unlucky, but I have had hardware failures. > >try getting a custom chip for a PC motherboard. And don't tell me to > >replace the motherboard - if the PC is a few years old I'd probably have > >to replace the CPU and memory as well. > > that is just the ticket. A brand new 486 motherboard cost $90. with it you > get real functionality. Wait a second. ISA graphics cards are already getting hard to find. So, presumably, if I have a not-too-old PC with an ISA graphics card and some custom chip dies, I have to buy a PCI graphics card, a new motherboard, a new processor, and either new memory or some SIMM converters. No thanks - I'll stick to my classics where repairing consists of picking up the service manual, finding the dead chip in about 10 minutes, and replacing it with one from either my junk box of the local electronics shop. > actually, you can get a decent modern PC together just by scrounging > computer shows and bargaining for parts. assembling a system from scratch > with old parts is very fun and rewarding. and the reliablity rate for modern > chips is very high. in fact the monitor or hard disk probably will die I've had modern custom chips fail for 'no good reason'. > before the motherboard will. Monitors can often be repaired for a lot less than the cost of a new one. Yes, the motherboard will probably outlast the hard disk, but that's (IMHO) because modern hard disks are darn unreliable (I've had several die on me, and without a clean room there's not a lot I can do). That doesn't mean the motherboard won't fail, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 28 20:00:19 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Modern Apps on Old Machines Message-ID: <1919@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> [...] > I love the internet, and I learned ALOT from it. sure a shell account with > lynx is nice, as I use it for fast FTP, but when I read about a PDP11, it is > nice to see a picture of one, rather just text. Alternatively I could just pick up one of about 30 PDP11 manuals I have lying about and not only see a picture of the outsides, but also see board layouts, schematics, timing charts, microcode flowcharts, and other useful info I've never found pictures of the outside of computers to be particularly interesting. The useful diagrams (see above) are just as useful on a 1-bit- per-pixel display. > >3. What other apps are there that are REALLY useful for home use that > >modern machines have and "home computers" don't? And is is really > > its not about apps, its about efficincy, and operator comfort. VGA or SVGA OK, I'm using my (much hacked) PC/AT (true-blue IBM, and just about on-topic here) at this moment. The display is a clone Hercules card driving that Zenith monitor with the 'interesting' PSU. After I fixed the PSU and tweaked the internal controls, I have an image _for text_ that's as sharp as any cheap SVGA monitor I've ever seen. No eyestrain at all. If you want colour, look at an old Barco (or Fimi, Philips, etc) monitor. Some of those are very well focused and converged. > is worth it becuse it prevents eyestrain, and you can use your system for > longer amounts of time. I used color TV's before when I got started, and > serious word processing was painful to the eyes. RGB's are better, but not RGB simply means that the video signal is sent along 3 separate cables for the 3 primary colours. Technically a VGA or SVGA monitor is an RGB monitor. > all in all, if the machine you use now does all what you want, thats great! > but the day WILL come where you just need to have a feature that you have In which case I'll do what I've always done in the past when this happens. I'll either find a classic machine that already has this feature or I'll build a bit of hardware to add it to whatever machine I feel like. > not got now. that is just the way the computing cookie crumbles. > -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 28 20:10:53 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Interesting S100 boards Message-ID: <1920@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > Also have these: > > the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1 > California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square > and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] I think this is what it says it is - a data encyption/decryption system. I have a thing called a 'modem maximiser' (a serial port data buffer box with a real time clock, parallel printer port, etc) that has an optional encryption unit. It too was a potted module. As I had a few spare modules I cut one apart and found it contained an 8032 (I think) microcontroller, RAM, a ROM (I must desolder that and examine it) and a TTL latch. Pretty much what you'd expect - a little microcontroller that reads in data, encrypts it, and sends it out again. > > Any idea what this stuff is? > > > Sam -tony From dynasoar at mindspring.com Sun Jun 29 09:30:52 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (dynasoar) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: USING classic machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > If I remember rightly, he just did a Linux port for some other > machine (forget) and gave a speech about it at the Linux Convention in > North Carolina a few months back. > What Linux Convention? Could you pass on a little more details about who, what and where, in private e-mail, if no one else is interested. Thanks. Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From sinasohn at crl.com Sat Jun 28 20:00:44 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Lisa's scores Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970628180452.5b3f270e@mail.crl.com> At 09:38 PM 6/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >Unfortunately, it was a classic design at the time - a lot of people >thought it looked like a dumb terminal (VT100). An awful lot of people have painted pictures of pretty women... Still, there's only one Mona Lisa. Sometimes it just takes a slight modification to turn the ordinary into the extraordinary. I still say the Lisa gets an out-of-the-park home run on aesthetics. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Sat Jun 28 20:01:22 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Computer Trivia Game Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970628180530.5b3f57e2@mail.crl.com> At 01:07 PM 6/27/97 -0400, you wrote: >> Anyone remember a trivial-pursuit-like Computer Trivia game? It was >I have computer-based trivia game (shareware, I think) on a CD-ROM. I could >dig it up, if anyone want it...it had pretty hard questions, which went >'way back to the dawn of time (you know, like the 1950's :> )) Actually, that does sound neat -- if you com across it, I'd love a copy. However, the game I was thinking of was one that had cards and (I think) a board, like trivpursuit. (I know my brother actually won a copy at the West Coast Computer Faire, but he's an a$$h@le and we aren't in contact.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From rcini at msn.com Sat Jun 28 20:02:11 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: ROM Archive Message-ID: Sam: > 1. Record format: open (depending on software for EPROM programmer); S-records, Intel Hex, binary. >> I'm no expert at this so I'll defer. The various hex records are ASCII representations, so I figured that they can be transferred with no problem by e-mail. If we're doing ftp, it doesn't matter > 2. Submission & storage: UUEncoded image file e-mailed to "repository"; ROM/EPROM chips sent by snail mail and returned. All submissions should have as much info about the source computer as possible (board revisions, date of manufacture, etc.) >>Sounds good. The repository then is a "soft" repository of ROM images? Yes. This way, we can transfer it, or burn it. > 3. Requests & withdrawls: by e-mail to those with programmers; by mail for those supplying their own chips; e-mail request with no chip sent. >> I assumed since the images are merely files they could be downloaded by anyone requesting them. Is the repository also going to have physical EPROMS that someone can request? If so, why? THe only reason to have EPROMs available is for those who are incapable of burning EPROMs them selves. > 4. Cost: nominal (cost of postage and EPROM). >> Is the repository also going to be in the business of supplying people with pre-burnt EPROMS? If so then 3 makes more sense now. Sure, why not. I don't think that there will be a huge demand, so the repository will not keep pre-burned ROMs on hand. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From gram at cnct.com Sat Jun 28 22:57:45 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: which month? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > What was the name of that book? Wasn't it something about a mouse? Like, > To Catch a Mouse, Make a Noise Like A Cheese? > > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Matt Pritchard wrote: > > > I have a book about marketing, written by a Tandy VP which has a large > > chapter on the birh of the TRS-80. He mentioned the day of the first > > produced unit, (sept 15th I think) and game totals for the first months > > or two (It seemed they only managed 3 computer a day for the first week > > or two). _To Catch a Mouse, Make a Noise Like a Cheese_ was indeed the title, by Lou Kornfeld, president of Radio Shack and originator of the "Flyer-Side Chat" column that was a regular feature in Radio Shack retail flyers for so many years. He was managing one of the (8 or 9) original Radio Shack stores in Boston when Charles Tandy bought the company in about 1964 (and proceeded to expand the chain by three orders of magnitude). I forget if the book was released before or after he retired. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu Sat Jun 28 22:59:50 1997 From: ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu (Yujin Nagasawa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: HELP Message-ID: <199706290356.XAA15036@abel.ic.sunysb.edu> ---------- > ???o?l : Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers > ???? : Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > ???? : RE: which month? > ???M???? : 1997?N6??28?? 23:57 > > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > > > What was the name of that book? Wasn't it something about a mouse? Like, > > To Catch a Mouse, Make a Noise Like A Cheese? > > > > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Matt Pritchard wrote: > > > > > I have a book about marketing, written by a Tandy VP which has a large > > > chapter on the birh of the TRS-80. He mentioned the day of the first > > > produced unit, (sept 15th I think) and game totals for the first months > > > or two (It seemed they only managed 3 computer a day for the first week > > > or two). > > _To Catch a Mouse, Make a Noise Like a Cheese_ was indeed the title, by > Lou Kornfeld, president of Radio Shack and originator of the "Flyer-Side > Chat" column that was a regular feature in Radio Shack retail flyers for > so many years. He was managing one of the (8 or 9) original Radio Shack > stores in Boston when Charles Tandy bought the company in about 1964 (and > proceeded to expand the chain by three orders of magnitude). I forget if > the book was released before or after he retired. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 28 22:52:33 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:41 2005 Subject: Interesting S100 boards In-Reply-To: <1920@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > In message classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > > Also have these: > > > > the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1 > > California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square > > and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] > > I think this is what it says it is - a data encyption/decryption system. Really!? :) Of course, but for what purpose? It has no I/O connectors. I assume you pump data into it over the bus. I was hoping someone would have some specific data on it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jun 28 22:45:14 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: C= 16 & Plus/4 cartridges In-Reply-To: <33B5D95C.3D47@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > For the first time since I actively started collecting old systems and > the software and peripherals, I finally came across some program > cartridges for the C-16 & Plus/4 today. They came from a guy who does a > flea market each weekend and who keeps an eye out for 8bit stuff, and he > picked them up with me in mind. They are 'Strange Odyssey' and 'Jack > Attack'. Anyway, my question is, since these are the only ones I've > ever run across, other than the cartridge that shipped with the C-16, > were there many made for these machines? In all my days of scrouning I have yet to run across a C16 or Plus/4 carthridge. Does this mean not many were made? I couldn't say with absolute assurety, but being that the Plus/4 flopped, I would speculate and say "yes". I've yet to run across a C16 either. And I'm in California, where you'd expect to find everything and anything. Which leads me to this: were some computers marketed on a regional basis in the US? It seems that in some places in the country, some stuff is easier to find than in others. Can any of you who were involved in the marketing and distribution of computers shed any light on this? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From thedm at sunflower.com Sat Jun 28 23:17:09 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: PCjr Cartridges? Message-ID: <199706290415.XAA02630@challenge.sunflower.com> I have, BASIC Lotus 1-2-3, {but can't get to work} Mouser MineShaft I'd like to have anything you can find. ---------- > From: thedm > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: PCjr Cartridges? > Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:08 PM > > Im interested in the PCjr carts. I have the basic one, but I can post a > list of what I have. > > ---------- > > From: Uncle Roger > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Subject: PCjr Cartridges? > > Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 8:27 PM > > > > Saw today a few cartridges which I'm guessing are PCjr carts. They said > > (among other things) "Cartridge BASIC". Anyone interested in them? They > > were (I think) a buck. > > > > They also had some misc Apple II cards (about $5 each, I think), some > Atari > > 800 ROM's (or RAM? I didn't look that closely). Lemme know if there's > any > > interest. > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 28 23:32:59 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: Interesting S100 boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33b5e564.171516@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sat, 28 Jun 1997 13:09:01 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: %Just took a closer look. The 6502 Processor board doesn't have any RAM %after all, just 74xx chips. The Trace Memory Interface has 3 Intersil 6402 %chips on it. What are those? 6402 are CMOS UARTs. Ben From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sat Jun 28 19:48:28 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: What's this? In-Reply-To: References: <33b511e8.10301223@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199706290448.AAA15814@mail.cgocable.net> Hello! I have a vax related board. It takes 6 x 72pin simms, on board SCSI run by NCR 53C94, and TP ethernet connection via 15pin D-connector. It uses standard DEC keyboards for it. It has pair of 40 pin ROM chips. Plugged into this small motnerboard as a daughterboard is 1mb VRAM with sound chip and it has Bt458LPJ125 RAMDAC chip feeding to D-shell with 3 coax connectors in it (sync on green), dual "phone" jacks with one "reset" button. It has 8 yellow diagnostic LEDs. Time of year, made around '90. It has label sticker: AB15102Y6U etched into board is GS-2 32491-(sticker says: E02) I think it's a vax type board but not exactly sure what exactly model it was? Type of box that I seen with this board was "pizza box" with no removeable media just a internal hard drive, the PSU is in long box with two small fans side to side in it. (Wished I could kept one of this chassis to house this board.) :( Thinking of putting Linux on it if there is a different daughterboards for it with removeable media/video/sound or whatever! Thanks! Jason D. From danjo at xnet.com Sat Jun 28 23:55:54 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix Message-ID: WAHOO! I am in as Root! And I ain't gonna tell you what it was! Now, anyone know what the Streaming Tape Drive device is called? I can boot with this (an old Adaptec SCSI board) installed. I also have 2 CB811 cards but only one seems to come up with a light, the other one just flashes? *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. I can not boot with either or both of these installed. I haven't tried real hard, maybe the console port changes with these in. But I also don't hear all the beeps if these are in. Here's my last bootup record ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sat Jun 28 23:11:07 *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. Can't find any CB811 boards Texas Instruments print screen v1.01 SPA initialization complete Streaming cartridge tape v2.00[A] (int=3,dma=3,base=00000220) Irootdev 1/40, pipedev 1/40, swapdev 1/41 JKL0L1L2L3disk[W] drive 0: cyls = 918, heads = 15, secs = 17 nswap = 5610, swplo = 0, Hz = 50 L4maximum user process size = 8655k L5MNOPmem: total = 8064k, reserved = 4k, kernel = 1088k, user = 6 Sat Jun 28 23:11:08 972k kernel: drivers = 4k, 0 screens = 0k, 600 i/o bufs = 600k, msg bufs = 8k QRSTUVWXYZdisk[W] drive 1: cyls = 918, heads = 15, secs = 17 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have looked and can not find any docs on the CB811's or the Tape Drive 8-( 8-( 8-( Anybody know anything about either of these????? BC From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 29 07:18:09 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > WAHOO! I am in as Root! And I ain't gonna tell you what it was! No one ever doubted it could be done -- physical access to the system unit gives opportunities to crack root that the best modem connection can't offer. That's why serious business systems are kept in physically secure areas. To enter the machine room where I work I have to exchange the card-key that gives me access to the building for one that gives me access to that room -- and I have to trade back if I want to go outside to smoke a cigarette. > Now, anyone know what the Streaming Tape Drive device is called? > I can boot with this (an old Adaptec SCSI board) installed. Look in the /dev directory and see what devices are listed containing strings such mt, rmt etc. Hell, mail me a 'ls -l' of /dev and I can probably tell you -- some vendor device drivers gave things funny names. > I also have 2 CB811 cards but only one seems to come up with a light, > the other one just flashes? > *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. > (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. Computone is best known for multi-port serial boards. These are probably 8-port boards to connect to terminals. What do the connectors on these boards look like? > Sat Jun 28 23:11:07 > *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. > (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. > > Can't find any CB811 boards > Texas Instruments print screen v1.01 > SPA initialization complete Yes, 'SPA' probably stands for 'serial port adapter'. > Streaming cartridge tape v2.00[A] (int=3,dma=3,base=00000220) Is the mechanism a full-size Quarter-inch drive or one of those little Irwin/CMS type drives? Don't try putting a Soundblaster compatible sound card in that box without careful setting of jumpers. Then again, Xenix of that era probably won't support it anyway. > Irootdev 1/40, pipedev 1/40, swapdev 1/41 > JKL0L1L2L3disk[W] drive 0: cyls = 918, heads = 15, secs = 17 > nswap = 5610, swplo = 0, Hz = 50 > L4maximum user process size = 8655k > L5MNOPmem: total = 8064k, reserved = 4k, kernel = 1088k, user = 6 > Sat Jun 28 23:11:08 > 972k > kernel: drivers = 4k, 0 screens = 0k, 600 i/o bufs = 600k, msg bufs = 8k > QRSTUVWXYZdisk[W] drive 1: cyls = 918, heads = 15, secs = 17 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- All of that looks pretty normal. So what utilities are on the machine? Does it have the Software Development package? (type 'cc' to check). Does it have the Text Processing package? -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From danjo at xnet.com Sun Jun 29 08:31:59 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > > WAHOO! I am in as Root! And I ain't gonna tell you what it was! > > No one ever doubted it could be done -- physical access to the system unit > gives opportunities to crack root that the best modem connection can't > offer. That's why serious business systems are kept in physically secure > areas. You are 100% correct Ward. This is the major failing of just anybody trying to setup and run Windows NT as a business server. There's the box here's my boot disk - Where do you want to go today? 8-) > To enter the machine room where I work I have to exchange the card-key > that gives me access to the building for one that gives me access to > that room -- and I have to trade back if I want to go outside to smoke > a cigarette. That's cool! Very professional. Do they body search you before you go in and after you come out? Hmmm... Cigarettes - another thread! > > Now, anyone know what the Streaming Tape Drive device is called? > > I can boot with this (an old Adaptec SCSI board) installed. > > Look in the /dev directory and see what devices are listed containing > strings such mt, rmt etc. Hell, mail me a 'ls -l' of /dev and I can > probably tell you -- some vendor device drivers gave things funny names. Found it in a cron file. It's called rct0 (I thought I tried that before I wrote the list- oh well!) > > *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. > > (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. > > Computone is best known for multi-port serial boards. These are probably > 8-port boards to connect to terminals. What do the connectors on these > boards look like? ?62 pin D-shells? With my eyes - it hard to tell. Smallest row has 20 and three rows of pins in the *dongle*. That *Dongle* wieghs in at about 7 lbs! I have three dongles and 2 cards for 16 ports. If I had one more card - 24 9.6k baud modems - I could use up a T1 8-) > > SPA initialization complete > > Yes, 'SPA' probably stands for 'serial port adapter'. Aside - What the heck is that shorty card in there? All epoxied up. Says TI on it. Metal shield. Any ideas? > > Streaming cartridge tape v2.00[A] (int=3,dma=3,base=00000220) > > Is the mechanism a full-size Quarter-inch drive or one of those little > Irwin/CMS type drives? Don't recognize anything on it that has a name I know. Full 1/4 inch on a DC600 tape (I now have one blank 8-) Yup - got the tape to work! > Don't try putting a Soundblaster compatible sound card in that box > without careful setting of jumpers. Then again, Xenix of that era > probably won't support it anyway. You know I keep hearing about these *SoundBlaster* thingies. What the heck are they anyway 8-) > All of that looks pretty normal. Hey if it comes up at all - that's pretty *ab*normal - least around me! > So what utilities are on the machine? Does it have the Software > Development package? (type 'cc' to check). Does it have the Text > Processing package? Give me some time! I don't think it has much of anything on it. I just made a list of files and will go thru them today. I could use some file names (as grep is easy to use 8-) BC From chemif at mbox.queen.it Sun Jun 29 08:35:46 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix Message-ID: <199706291335.PAA10714@mbox.queen.it> At 23:55 28/06/97 -0500, you wrote: > >WAHOO! I am in as Root! And I ain't gonna tell you what it was! > >Now, anyone know what the Streaming Tape Drive device is called? >I can boot with this (an old Adaptec SCSI board) installed. I have the TI 1300, and the device was called /dev/rct0 you should have the "help" command available, try also with ? and the topic. >I also have 2 CB811 cards but only one seems to come up with a light, >the other one just flashes? > *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. > (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. > >I can not boot with either or both of these installed. I haven't tried >real hard, maybe the console port changes with these in. But I also don't >hear all the beeps if these are in. I guess you are using built-in vga card and keyboard connected directly in the machine, instead of using "tty0a" port of the CB811 with a vt 100 as console. This, usually, make the difference. >Here's my last bootup record >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Sat Jun 28 23:11:07 > *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. > (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. > >Can't find any CB811 boards >Texas Instruments print screen v1.01 >SPA initialization complete >Streaming cartridge tape v2.00[A] (int=3,dma=3,base=00000220) >Irootdev 1/40, pipedev 1/40, swapdev 1/41 >JKL0L1L2L3disk[W] drive 0: cyls = 918, heads = 15, secs = 17 >nswap = 5610, swplo = 0, Hz = 50 >L4maximum user process size = 8655k >L5MNOPmem: total = 8064k, reserved = 4k, kernel = 1088k, user = 6 >Sat Jun 28 23:11:08 >972k >kernel: drivers = 4k, 0 screens = 0k, 600 i/o bufs = 600k, msg bufs = 8k >QRSTUVWXYZdisk[W] drive 1: cyls = 918, heads = 15, secs = 17 >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >I have looked and can not find any docs on the CB811's or the Tape Drive >8-( 8-( 8-( > >Anybody know anything about either of these????? I will try to ask my old TEXAS suppliers and let you know Riccardo ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html From kyrrin at wizards.net Sun Jun 29 09:37:41 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: PROMS Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970629073741.00f828b0@mail.wizards.net> Tim Shoppa wrote... Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 06:26:54 -0800 (PDT) From: Tim Shoppa To: classiccmp@u.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: Archiving & other news Message-ID: <9706281326.AA21254@alph02.triumf.ca> Content-Type: text >Does this include 1702A's and 2704's? Checking my wall chart, it doesn't look like it right away. However, I will check with Data I/O's web site (they have an online device support lookup). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at wizards.net Sun Jun 29 09:53:40 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970629075340.00f84520@mail.wizards.net> I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as any machine that you can: * Comfortably fit through your door... * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your home! Which just goes to show that such terminology is so relative, there's little point in debating it. Why waste the bandwidth over something as trivial as a difference in wording? (No, I'm not trying to start a flamewar; I posted this because I'm concerned that the current thread regarding 'home' computers may erupt into one!) Caveat Emperor! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 29 10:38:32 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199706291538.AA05495@world.std.com> > For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in > general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as > any machine that you can: > > * Comfortably fit through your door... > * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... > * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... > * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your > home Great loved it! What I'd pointed out before is many of the PDP-11s were in the same space and competing for the same percieved market as the PC. While some -11s were large like the 11/70 with RP06/7 disks and wanting a cooled computer room. most were at must one rack and a disk systems that were more modest in size. The systems I refered to as desktop were: LSI-11/03 (floppy based in short rack 28" tall) PDP-11/23+ (in 40" tall rack with RL02 removeable disk and floppy) PDT-11/130 (slow tape but it was only vt100 sized!) PDT-11/150 (Late 70s early 80s) not large at all. (also called breadbox) PRO350 and later 380 Microvax I/II (ba23 pedestal) VS2000 (box slightly larger than DECMATEIII) VS3100 (aka pizza box) These happen to be DEC systems but IBM, HP, DG were all out there too with desktop sized or desk side minies in disgusise. All very collectable and also useable! Allison From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sun Jun 29 06:49:45 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: Error Condition Re: Re: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <199706291543.LAA21758@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199706291549.LAA22180@mail.cgocable.net> Subject: Home computer: Definition My opinions and to disgress; "Home Computer" term is invented by corporations to supposely help define their markets and totally miss it all the time because users needs is usually higher than their corporates' computers by factor of 1.5 to 2. At same time tries to pull off a coup on "home" users by selling stripped down with loads of cut corners and oft-nonstandard parts machine at horrible prices. Case in point: PCjr. PCjr and orignal 2 piece PS/1 (sold at 1000 bux cdn but you get no HD in it, introduced 1990's but users right away dumped them by pallets barely 2 years after. Yuk!) Side note: I traded few things to get this PS/1 2011 and used it for a while but sold it cheaply to a user who have modest needs than I. (for me, I can't manage well without hard drive attached even all the down to XT but not for apple II's their floppy drive is very fast enough to forgo hd, very impressed but at that time too expensive for my taste but now they are so cheap now.) So there was a bad taste to this name "home computers" in general. Similar types of computers did well in many areas but happened to lack important areas that killed it. Ironically, better to build DIY similar capablies 386, 80mb, 1mb, desktop/mono vga and still easily interchangable than that darned PS/1 2011 models. When I read about many machines and few "home computers" as called toys but I was mistaken when I saw and heard that "toy", boy, they're mistaken and I was taken too for a while! Indeed they were used for anything within their capablies so I accept anything that has CPU in it at same time useful and expandable should be decent computers, no more or less. :) C64, PET's, apples and such has just right stuff to keep users happy. In closing, corporations always underestimate "home" users. But now they are not pushing this word and crippled machines anymore, now selling them in general to any users execpt for corporations who needs turnkey system just to do very specific jobs like weak machine strictly for WP use, alphas for servers and heavy graphics, fast processor for programming but that is getting blurred that most users can afford them and can put them in their homes. Ok, now I could respond to yours... :) > I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms > indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. Suppose, Digital did not cared a whit and cut prices on that and we would be sure many would have one in home if they're small enough and easy on power requirements. Linux is there now and NT can be run on alphas but bit late and cost is fast appoaching to affordable levels where getting a pentium pro machine is not only option. > > For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in > general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as > any machine that you can: > > * Comfortably fit through your door... > > * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... > > * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... > > * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your home! > > Which just goes to show that such terminology is so relative, there's > little point in debating it. Why waste the bandwidth over something as > trivial as a difference in wording? > > (No, I'm not trying to start a flamewar; I posted this because I'm > concerned that the current thread regarding 'home' computers may erupt into > one!) > > Caveat Emperor! From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sun Jun 29 11:32:46 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970629075340.00f84520@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Bruce Lane wrote: > I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms > indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. My PDP is a home computer. All it takes up is a table (I don't have a rack yet. It's coming...) Besides, my XT is bigger than the PDP at the moment (condidering keyboard, monitor, printer, and disks) Anything I can fit inside is a home computer! If it's in a home, and it's a computer, it's a home computer, right? From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 29 13:16:33 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition References: Message-ID: <33B6A681.66DE@ndirect.co.uk> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Bruce Lane wrote: > > > I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms > > indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. > > My PDP is a home computer. All it takes up is a table (I don't have a > rack yet. It's coming...) Besides, my XT is bigger than the PDP at the > moment (condidering keyboard, monitor, printer, and disks) > > Anything I can fit inside is a home computer! If it's in a home, and > it's a computer, it's a home computer, right? Of course you could go to work on a Ferrari BUT would you? (and is a Ferrari a "goto work car"?) enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jun 29 13:34:39 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <33B6A681.66DE@ndirect.co.uk> from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 29, 97 06:16:33 pm Message-ID: <9706291734.AA10600@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1488 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970629/3a13ea33/attachment-0001.ksh From danjo at xnet.com Sun Jun 29 12:44:11 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <33B6A681.66DE@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Bruce Lane wrote: > > > I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms > > > indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" > > > computers. > > > > > > * Comfortably fit through your door... > > > * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... > > > * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... > > > * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your > > > home > > > > My PDP is a home computer. All it takes up is a table (I don't have a > > rack yet. It's coming...) Besides, my XT is bigger than the PDP at the > > moment (condidering keyboard, monitor, printer, and disks) > > > > Anything I can fit inside is a home computer! If it's in a home, and > > it's a computer, it's a home computer, right? I agree! I have even thought of putting in a bigger door 8-) > Of course you could go to work on a Ferrari BUT would you? (and is a > Ferrari a "goto work car"?) Why - yes I would. I tend to do things like that tho. Not everyone would. But if I spend > $1 on a car - I use it. What is a car for? What is a computer for? Do you think Ferrari builds cars to sit? Why do they put an engine in one then? Now art - like a painting - thats made to hang on a wall and get looked at. I do have a picture of a Ferrari - got that for free. Why would I would I speend > $100K for something to look at. BC From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 29 12:43:28 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > > WAHOO! I am in as Root! And I ain't gonna tell you what it was! That's not very friendly. > Now, anyone know what the Streaming Tape Drive device is called? > I can boot with this (an old Adaptec SCSI board) installed. I know, but I ain't gonna tell you what it is! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 29 12:50:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970629075340.00f84520@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Bruce Lane wrote: > For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in > general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as > any machine that you can: > > * Comfortably fit through your door... > > * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... > > * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... > > * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your home! > I love this definition! I think it should go in the FAQ. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Jun 29 13:54:36 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: Plus/4 Cartridges References: <199706290702.AAA01484@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33B6AF6C.3DCA@goldrush.com> RE From: Jeff Hellige Subject: C= 16 & Plus/4 cartridges > For the first time since I actively started collecting old systems and > the software and peripherals, I finally came across some program > cartridges for the C-16 & Plus/4 today. They came from a guy who does a >flea market each weekend and who keeps an eye out for 8bit stuff, and he >picked them up with me in mind. They are 'Strange Odyssey' and 'Jack >Attack'. Anyway, my question is, since these are the only ones I've >ever run across, other than the cartridge that shipped with the C-16, >were there many made for these machines? > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com Sounds like two from a set an electronics secods outlet was selling... The set had 8 carts, Jack Attack, Strange Oddesy, Plus Calc, Plus Script (plus/4 verions of easycalc and easyscript), and some others I can't remember or locate, total of 8 carts. I think that might have been the bulk of the U.S. release for the Plus/4. Of course in europe the Plus/4 went many years of popularity with many companies supplying games (just check the net you will find lots if information, though many of the games are PAL mode, *sigh*) Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun Jun 29 14:02:44 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... References: <199706290702.AAA01484@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33B6B153.4E0A@goldrush.com> > Also have these: > > the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1 > California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square > and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] > > Any idea what this stuff is? > > > Sam I was reading in the Atari Game Systems FAQ that the 7800 carts are encrypted with a special encryption and only those encrypted games get access to the 7800's advanced video resources (otherwise it just gets 2600 resources)... This was a measure by Atari to make sure to get a share of the profits from 3rd party game developers. There could be a slight possibility this is an encryption unit for the 7800 game system... Currently no one knows (or is saying they know) how to encrypt 7800 carts. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 29 14:05:40 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199706291905.AA00715@world.std.com> > Of course you could go to work on a Ferrari BUT would you? (and is a > Ferrari a "goto work car"?) If work is a race car driver, it might be. ;-) Assuming it's not outclassed. Allison From spc at armigeron.com Sun Jun 29 15:15:34 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <33B6A681.66DE@ndirect.co.uk> from "e.tedeschi" at Jun 29, 97 06:16:33 pm Message-ID: <199706292015.QAA06732@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great e.tedeschi once stated: > Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > > Anything I can fit inside is a home computer! If it's in a home, and > > it's a computer, it's a home computer, right? > > > Of course you could go to work on a Ferrari BUT would you? (and is a > Ferrari a "goto work car"?) Heck, if I had a Ferrari, I might not even GO to work. I'd be having too much fun driving the thing. What's the point of a Ferrari if you only get to drive it for an hour or so a day? Why have it if it's not going to be used? Which relates to how I collect computers - I only collect computers that I can actually put to good use. I feel bad if a computer is just sitting there collecting dust. -spc (Woo hoo! I'm drivin g a Ferrari, and I even rate my own police escourt! 8-) From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 29 16:42:02 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: bibliography Message-ID: <33B6D6AA.32A6@ndirect.co.uk> - "Fumbling the Future" by Douglas Smith and Robert Alexander - "Halcion Days" By??? I would like to add these two titles to my HOME COMPUTER BIBLIOGRAPHY. Does anybody have the name of the publishers and the year of publishing? Thank you enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 29 16:47:07 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition References: <199706291905.AA00715@world.std.com> Message-ID: <33B6D7DB.52AB@ndirect.co.uk> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > Of course you could go to work on a Ferrari BUT would you? (and is a > > Ferrari a "goto work car"?) > > If work is a race car driver, it might be. ;-) Assuming it's not > outclassed. > > Allison but he is not, so why use a Ferrari to go to work. He can still own a Ferrary but keep it in the garage and use it on Sundays... enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Sun Jun 29 16:59:30 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition References: <199706292015.QAA06732@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <33B6DAC2.6A6D@ndirect.co.uk> Captain Napalm wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great e.tedeschi once stated: > > Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > > > > Anything I can fit inside is a home computer! If it's in a home, and > > > it's a computer, it's a home computer, right? > > > > > > Of course you could go to work on a Ferrari BUT would you? (and is a > > Ferrari a "goto work car"?) > > Heck, if I had a Ferrari, I might not even GO to work. I'd be having too > much fun driving the thing. You might HAVE to go to work to mantain the beast.... What's the point of a Ferrari if you only get > to drive it for an hour or so a day? Why have it if it's not going to be > used? For the historical importance or for collection... > > Which relates to how I collect computers - I only collect computers that I > can actually put to good use. I feel bad if a computer is just sitting > there collecting dust. There are computers that you could not possibly USE but they are important for what they meant (and mean today) in short for their "heritage". Without them you could not have used (and use) the ones you are using today. enrico > > -spc (Woo hoo! I'm drivin g a Ferrari, and I even rate my own police > escourt! 8-) From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jun 29 15:18:10 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: DOS 2.11 software (fwd) Message-ID: <199706292102.OAA19143@mx4.u.washington.edu> I can help...I have lotsa "old" games (MDA/MGA/CGA) -- mostly shareware. Please tell him to contact me. ---------- > From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > To: Manney > Subject: DOS 2.11 software (fwd) > Date: Saturday, June 28, 1997 1:59 PM > > > > OK guys, here is a request I got, maybe someone can help this poor guy! > Thanks, > > Les > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 08:26:19 -0400 (EDT) > From: KenpoKidJB@aol.com > To: more@camlaw.Rutgers.EDU > Subject: software > > hey, i went to your web site, but didn't find what i wanted. i'm looking for > dos 2.11 programs that will run off of a 3.5" floppy. most specifically, i'm > especially looking for games. any kind will do, but even more specifically, > i'm looking for text driven adventure games, as my kaypro 2000 LCD screen > doesn't do very well with graphics!! so, let me know what you can do for > me.. i really appreciate it. > Jeremiah > From william at ans.net Sun Jun 29 16:17:01 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: ROM Archive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706292117.AA05368@interlock.ans.net> > 1. Record format: open (depending on software for EPROM programmer); > S-records, Intel Hex, binary. I suppose just about anything is good, as there are plenty of utilities to convert the different formats. > 2. Submission & storage: UUEncoded image file e-mailed to "repository"; > ROM/EPROM chips sent by snail mail and returned. All submissions should have > as much info about the source computer as possible (board revisions, date of > mnaufacture, etc.) I think that anything doing with the chips (purchasing, programming, shipping) should be left to the person that needs them. Sure, not very many people on the list have programmers, but there are enough kind souls that would do the programming. Anyway, having a policy concerning shipping and supply may turn into a big headache. > 3. Requests & withdrawls: by e-mail to those with programmers; by mail for > those supplying their own chips; e-mail request with no chip sent. See above. > 4. Cost: nominal (cost of postage and EPROM). Doing any more may actually be legally shakey. Additional thought... How will additional required information be tied to the ROM images (as in manufacturers part numbers, revision levels, serial numbers, corresponding hardware information, etc.)? ROMS (and PALs) often change as the circuits get minor "improvements" (ECOs). William Donzelli william@ans.net From starling at umr.edu Sun Jun 29 16:23:59 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... In-Reply-To: <33B6B153.4E0A@goldrush.com> from "Larry Anderson & Diane Hare" at Jun 29, 97 11:02:44 am Message-ID: <199706292123.QAA12003@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > Currently no one knows (or is saying they know) how to encrypt 7800 > carts. > Actually, I seem to recall that a guy in rec.games.video.classic has figured it out, but there hasn't been any practical application of it yet. But I haven't read r.g.v.c in a LONG time, so things may have changed... I wish I could remember his name... he was one of the big cheese techie types in the newsgroup that was always hacking up weird stuff, so I don't doubt that he did it. From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 29 16:43:11 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > You are 100% correct Ward. This is the major failing of just anybody > trying to setup and run Windows NT as a business server. There's the box > here's my boot disk - Where do you want to go today? 8-) For the company Notes system, the NT Servers are in the same room. It's an insurance company -- they've gotten into the security habit strongly since they installed about the third production Univac I that was ever made back about the time I was born. > > To enter the machine room where I work I have to exchange the card-key > > that gives me access to the building for one that gives me access to > > that room -- and I have to trade back if I want to go outside to smoke > > a cigarette. > > That's cool! Very professional. Do they body search you before you go in > and after you come out? Hmmm... Cigarettes - another thread! Well, I find much of the discussion about getting the yellowing from tar and nicotine off of the cases to be rather irrelevant -- for almost of twenty years, my nocturnal hacking has been with an overflowing ashtray on one side of the keyboard and a twelve-pack of something above 3.2% on the other. Yes, I Windex the screens -- the yellowing of off-white cases I find relaxing. (I live in New Jersey, but I'm from Los Angeles -- that means that while the groundwater is fine, due to the lack of an inversion layer the air is lacking in essential vitamins -- two generations in L.A. and evolution worked. I _need_ the supplementary carbon monoxide, and jogging behind busses is too much like exercise.) > Found it in a cron file. It's called rct0 (I thought I tried that before > I wrote the list- oh well!) Yeah, I recall the device name. It was unique to QIC drives under Xenix, as far as I can recall -- though there might have been carryover into SCO Unix -- I've never set up a SCO Unix system with one. > > Computone is best known for multi-port serial boards. These are probably > > 8-port boards to connect to terminals. What do the connectors on these > > boards look like? > > ?62 pin D-shells? With my eyes - it hard to tell. Smallest row has 20 and > three rows of pins in the *dongle*. That *Dongle* wieghs in at about 7 > lbs! I have three dongles and 2 cards for 16 ports. If I had one more > card - 24 9.6k baud modems - I could use up a T1 8-) That's the connector to connect an eight-port box to the board -- _all_ of the signals for all eight serial ports are present on that connector -- figuring which pin is which line on which port is the next best thing to do without a schematic or the box to dissect. > > > SPA initialization complete > > Yes, 'SPA' probably stands for 'serial port adapter'. > Aside - What the heck is that shorty card in there? All epoxied up. > Says TI on it. Metal shield. Any ideas? Damfino -- never did a TI Xenix system. Did Xenix on Tandy, Altos, and with SCO a shitload of 386 platforms, but not TI. > Don't recognize anything on it that has a name I know. Full 1/4 inch > on a DC600 tape (I now have one blank 8-) Yup - got the tape to work! Cool. Those mini-QIC drives have never given me _anything_ but grief. From manney at nwohio.com Sun Jun 29 16:24:47 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199706292129.OAA02527@mx3.u.washington.edu> Is VAXen the plural of VAX ? Why? From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 29 16:54:00 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970629075340.00f84520@mail.wizards.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Bruce Lane wrote: > For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in > general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as > any machine that you can: > > * Comfortably fit through your door... Fine there. But in this old Victorian, the tight stairs to the attic and the basement can be a _bitch_, especially when moving from on to tother. > * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... Well, that's why the bigger boxes are in the basement. > * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... Does bribing the town electrical inspector count? (This _is_ New Jersey). > * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your home! The key factor. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 29 17:27:53 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <199706292129.OAA02527@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, PG Manney wrote: > Is VAXen the plural of VAX ? Why? Play on words. Like the plural of 'Ox' is 'Oxen', plurals of many things involving computers that end in 'x' end in 'xen'. As VAXen, Unixen (for the many variations on the Unix OS such as Venix, Linux, BSD, Solaris, AIX, Xenix, and several others. You'll also see more than one box (as in CPU) referred to as 'boxen'. Check out _The New Hacker's Dictionary_, 2nd Edition, from MIT Press, also available in many forms on the Net as the "Jargon File". Currently (and for a long time now) maintained by Eric S. Raymond. Try . (Actually, recommended to everybody who ever wonders what one of us old farts is talking about). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From danjo at xnet.com Sun Jun 29 17:29:55 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <33B6DAC2.6A6D@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > For the historical importance or for collection... I understand this. But wouldn't a picture and the operators/maintenance manuals be enought then? Maybe some film or video? BOING! How about a film library of old computer stuff? You know - file footage that all the old SF movies used to use. > There are computers that you could not possibly USE but they are > important for what they meant (and mean today) in short for their > "heritage". Without them you could not have used (and use) the ones you > are using today. Name some. I mean the ones I *could not possibly USE* - I would like a list of things to look for 8-) I remember someone saying in one post about MCMXXX and the response being *must have meant MCMLXXX* - why? Triode tubes (valves - I love that word) were around - Why couldn't you build a computer using tubes from the 30's. I mean - it would keep the house warm (probably too warm 8-) and it would be some what limited in storage - but heck weren't some of the first tubers (like that word too) big word machines. Wierd things like 12 and 23 and 31 bit come to mind. Wasn't there a huge 64 bit TTL one as well? This was back in the late 50's. Government funded stuff. Or am I just blowing wind? BC From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 29 17:57:11 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > I remember someone saying in one post about MCMXXX and the response being > *must have meant MCMLXXX* - why? Triode tubes (valves - I love that word) > were around - Why couldn't you build a computer using tubes from the 30's. > I mean - it would keep the house warm (probably too warm 8-) and it would > be some what limited in storage - but heck weren't some of the first > tubers (like that word too) big word machines. Wierd things like 12 and 23 > and 31 bit come to mind. Wasn't there a huge 64 bit TTL one as well? This > was back in the late 50's. Government funded stuff. Or am I just blowing > wind? That was me. Yes, it might have been _possible_ to build a machine in 1930, but at that time nobody had made the connection between Babbage's ideas and electronics. IIRC, it was John von Neuman who took that fatal step, then published it. And then all Hell broke loose, and there is no sign of the rift closing within our lifetimes. I _love_ it. With respect to the old Chinese curse, we live in interesting times. And we have done so since the Harvard Mark I. (Well, there _is_ that rumoured German predecessor, but it was never advertised.) -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From danjo at xnet.com Sun Jun 29 18:02:29 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > For the company Notes system, the NT Servers are in the same room. It's > an insurance company -- they've gotten into the security habit strongly > since they installed about the third production Univac I that was ever > made back about the time I was born. The people that you could REALLY hurt if you broke security! [Section moved to end 8-)] > > > > SPA initialization complete > > > Yes, 'SPA' probably stands for 'serial port adapter'. > > Aside - What the heck is that shorty card in there? All epoxied up. > > Says TI on it. Metal shield. Any ideas? > > Damfino -- never did a TI Xenix system. Did Xenix on Tandy, Altos, and > with SCO a shitload of 386 platforms, but not TI. This is the SPA card. It has 3 20 pin chips and 1 24 pin chip in it (from looking at the back). It has LAB1 as a part name and on the slot cover it says "SPA ID NUMBER : 3531". On the drive is an installation script to change SPA passwords. Three entries : # cat /etc/softpwd DFMX_1.0:052B46346E1F471943210A3344174B3D3D064C01: TISAM2.4:024427482D315F1A3F2D572F6C006D1A21230B6B: COBRT2.0:0B7125683B101E6B360D204A7B0717571C3F6F59: Looks like some protection thingy for Cobol and a Database thing. > > Don't recognize anything on it that has a name I know. Full 1/4 inch > > on a DC600 tape (I now have one blank 8-) Yup - got the tape to work! > > Cool. Those mini-QIC drives have never given me _anything_ but grief. > From the age, that drive is probable 60 MB, but could be as much as 150. No problems - so far 8-) > Well, Xenix is pretty rugged, even on an Intel box. Definitely! > > > So what utilities are on the machine? Does it have the Software > > > Development package? (type 'cc' to check). Does it have the Text > > > Processing package? No cc 8-( Maybe time to turn it into a Linux Box. > For text processing, look for 'troff' in a bin directory. Of course, an > 'ls /usr/games' will tell you whether or not the machine is worth keeping > for the long run. Especially if you've got 'rogue' or 'hack' (and if you > don't, I suspect they can be tracked down). No troff either &-( And no games! What the heck! > > > To enter the machine room where I work I have to exchange the card-key > > > that gives me access to the building for one that gives me access to > > > that room -- and I have to trade back if I want to go outside to smoke > > > a cigarette. > > That's cool! Very professional. Do they body search you before you go in > > and after you come out? Hmmm... Cigarettes - another thread! > Well, I find much of the discussion about getting the yellowing from tar > and nicotine off of the cases to be rather irrelevant -- for almost of > twenty years, my nocturnal hacking has been with an overflowing ashtray on > one side of the keyboard and a twelve-pack of something above 3.2% on the > other. Well, I also crank up Led Zeppelin and go for something in the 18 proof range 8-) Sometimes I mellow out with Readers Digest "Big Band Era" - but I'm strange. (Man can Christopher Columbus bang those drums!) > Yes, I Windex the screens -- the yellowing of off-white cases I find > relaxing. (I live in New Jersey, but I'm from Los Angeles -- that means > that while the groundwater is fine, due to the lack of an inversion > layer the air is lacking in essential vitamins -- two generations in > L.A. and evolution worked. I _need_ the supplementary carbon monoxide, > and jogging behind busses is too much like exercise.) Not EXACTLY what I meant 8-) I was wondering - with all the secoandhand smoke info flowing around - if you ever had a "hardware" failure directly tied to cigarettes? I had one. The damn thing rolled off the ashtray onto a 5 1/4 disk. Melted it before I could get to it. That's why I make backups! But I use to teach computers in - oh 82-85. We used 8 inch drives and thru a *design* flaw the fans sucked instead of blew. Used to flip my ashes right in there. Used to throw the floppy up and then jump on it. In all those years, I lost one disk. Had my boots reheeled after that 8-) But smoking and computers are A BIG NO!NO! I can see a problem with maybe CD-ROMS and floppies - tar gumming up the works - but I have never had a failure that wouldn't have been as bad if it was Kool-Aid or something. I think sugar based stuff is the worst for computers. Conductive and fluid! Ouch! BC From danjo at xnet.com Sun Jun 29 18:10:33 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > > I remember someone saying in one post about MCMXXX and the response being > > *must have meant MCMLXXX* - why? Triode tubes (valves - I love that word) > > were around - Why couldn't you build a computer using tubes from the 30's. > > That was me. Yes, it might have been _possible_ to build a machine in > 1930, but at that time nobody had made the connection between Babbage's > ideas and electronics. IIRC, it was John von Neuman who took that fatal > step, then published it. And then all Hell broke loose, and there is no > sign of the rift closing within our lifetimes. I _love_ it. With > respect to the old Chinese curse, we live in interesting times. And we > have done so since the Harvard Mark I. (Well, there _is_ that rumoured > German predecessor, but it was never advertised.) Which reminds me, my oldest handheld is from Korea. It feels great on my feet! My uncle picked it up for me in the mid-60's tho the design has been around in Asia for centuries. BC From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 29 18:06:07 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... In-Reply-To: <33B6B153.4E0A@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > > the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1 > > California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square > > and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] NOTE: The description above is of two, separate cards. > I was reading in the Atari Game Systems FAQ that the 7800 carts are > encrypted with a special encryption and only those encrypted games get > access to the 7800's advanced video resources (otherwise it just gets > 2600 resources)... This was a measure by Atari to make sure to get a > share of the profits from 3rd party game developers. There could be a > slight possibility this is an encryption unit for the 7800 game > system... Hmmm. Interesting hypothesis. However, these boards are circa 1983, while the 7800 is circa 1986 or something. I'll go repost a request for info on the atari newsgroups. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Jun 29 18:24:35 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <970629192434_1012898288@emout11.mail.aol.com> actually, ive heard the plural for unix to be unices, rather than unixen, or also expressed as *nix, for the different flavours of unix out there. the hacker's dictionary is great though, just to read the words and their origins. i've now got everyone at work to use the term "virtual friday" which i picked out of the dictionary! =D << > Is VAXen the plural of VAX ? Why? Play on words. Like the plural of 'Ox' is 'Oxen', plurals of many things involving computers that end in 'x' end in 'xen'. As VAXen, Unixen (for the many variations on the Unix OS such as Venix, Linux, BSD, Solaris, AIX, Xenix, and several others. You'll also see more than one box (as in CPU) referred to as 'boxen'. Check out _The New Hacker's Dictionary_, 2nd Edition, from MIT Press, also available in many forms on the Net as the "Jargon File". Currently (and for a long time now) maintained by Eric S. Raymond. Try . (Actually, recommended to everybody who ever wonders what one of us old farts is talking about). -- Ward Griffiths >> david From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 29 18:14:24 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... In-Reply-To: <33B6B153.4E0A@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > > Also have these: > > > > the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1 > > > > California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square > > and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] > > I was reading in the Atari Game Systems FAQ that the 7800 carts are > encrypted with a special encryption and only those encrypted games get > access to the 7800's advanced video resources (otherwise it just gets > 2600 resources)... This was a measure by Atari to make sure to get a > share of the profits from 3rd party game developers. There could be a > slight possibility this is an encryption unit for the 7800 game > system... Also, I would think Atari would make their own encryption hardware rather than using a (somewhat) commonly available encryption board. Who knows, I guess I'll just have to crack this interesting mystery. BTW I uncovered another Trace Memory Interface Card hiding underneath some front covers in another box, so that makes two of those. This card has the two 6402 chips on it. I looked closer and it also has baud rate DIP switches for setting the baud rate up to 38,400bps for each serial port. Looks like this thing dumped debug information, probably about the 6502 Processor card, onto a terminal. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 29 18:34:59 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: bibliography In-Reply-To: <33B6D6AA.32A6@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > - "Halcion Days" By??? > > Does anybody have the name of the publishers and the year of publishing? Oops, almost forgot, the publisher of _Halcyon Days_ is Dadgum Games. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 29 18:37:42 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: ROM Archive In-Reply-To: <199706292117.AA05368@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > Additional thought... > > How will additional required information be tied to the ROM images (as in > manufacturers part numbers, revision levels, serial numbers, > corresponding hardware information, etc.)? ROMS (and PALs) often change > as the circuits get minor "improvements" (ECOs). I guess a data sheet will have to be kept for each ROM. And if a certain revision is found not to work on a certain other revision then it will be noted in the data sheet. It will all be figured out over time. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 29 18:33:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: bibliography In-Reply-To: <33B6D6AA.32A6@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > - "Fumbling the Future" by Douglas Smith and Robert Alexander > - "Halcion Days" By??? _Halcyon Days_ by James Hague, March 1997 (HTML on floppy) Also, add these to your list if they are not already on it: _The Naked Computer_ "A Layperson's Almanac of Computer Lore, Wizardry, Personalities, Memorabilia, World Records, Mindblowers, and Tomfoolery" by Jack B. Rochester and John Gantz, William Morrow & Company, 1983, ISBN: 0-688-02450-5 [an excellent book of tidbits] _The Micro Millenium_ by Christopher Evans, Viking Press, 1979, ISBN: 0-670-47400-2 [basically a backward and forward looking book on the computer age, just started reading it] _The Untold Story of the Computer Revolution: Bits, Bytes, Bauds & Brains_ by G. Harry Stine, Arbor House Publishing Co., 1985, ISBN: 0-87795-574-3 [historical text which starts with Babbage and works its way up to 1985, read it 10 years ago but I'm sure I enjoyed it] Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jun 29 18:41:23 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <199706292129.OAA02527@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, PG Manney wrote: > Is VAXen the plural of VAX ? Why? Yes, just like "oxen" is the plural of "ox". Ahhhh, the odd exceptions of the English language. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From rcini at msn.com Sun Jun 29 20:15:55 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: Weekend Additions Message-ID: David: You can still get Tandy/RS software directly from their National Parts service. Last year when I acquired a Model 100 system, I needed the DVI (disk-video interface) diskette, I called them. The price: $5 each. I can't seem to find the telephone number (it is an 800#, though), but it's called "Tandy Consumer Mail Center". You should be able to get the number from your local R/S. Give them the catalog# and what you're looking for. They will probably refer you to the Tandy Software Service Center, where you can order the diskette. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking ======================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:13:11 -0400 (EDT) From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: weekend additions Message-ID: <970628101309_408583751@emout07.mail.aol.com> i need some help on what i found this weekend. a trs80 model III 48k. came with trsdos disk, but i havent tested it yet. can anyone point to a source of software. now i need a model ][ to fill in the blanks! From broswell at syssrc.com Sun Jun 29 21:13:38 1997 From: broswell at syssrc.com (Bob Roswell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: Historical Research In-Reply-To: <101CFB4E013D0400@c2inet.syssrc.com> Message-ID: <641DFB4E013D0400@c2inet.syssrc.com> Kevin, did you ever get that draft I emailed you? What is going on with you book? Bob Roswell System Source 338 Clubhouse Road Hunt Valley, MD 21031 (410) 771-5544 ext 336 broswell@syssrc.com www.syssrc.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jun 29 21:58:02 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199706300258.AA11612@world.std.com> > Is VAXen the plural of VAX ? Why? hobson's choice, it just is. For some reason VAXes never caught in some circles especally when you dealing with SMP and clusters of vaxen. There are many stories why, most I've forgotten though as a millrat I should be up on it. Actually there are some good stories about node names on the DIGIAL network. My favorites were MILRAT, and the other two cluster members MILROT and MILDEW. They were apt names for vaxen located where straight down through the floor meant you were in the pond. Allison From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 29 22:27:38 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: A little guidance - TI Xenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > Not EXACTLY what I meant 8-) I was wondering - with all the secoandhand > smoke info flowing around - if you ever had a "hardware" failure directly > tied to cigarettes? I had one. The damn thing rolled off the ashtray onto Well, I _do_ insert a cleaning diskette into each drive every year whether it's given me any grief or not. Of course, I've been using the same 5.25 cleaning disk since 1979 and the 3.5 since 1986. I suppose I should at _least_ buy a new bottle of the stuff I'm supposed to dribble onto the cleaning disks. > a 5 1/4 disk. Melted it before I could get to it. That's why I make > backups! But I use to teach computers in - oh 82-85. We used 8 inch drives > and thru a *design* flaw the fans sucked instead of blew. Used to flip my The _only_ diskettes I've ever damaged directly with cigarettes have been intentionally. A floppy gives me grief, I quadruple the diameter of the sector detect hole as a warning to others. Oh, and I do that to any and all unsolicited (which means all) AOL disks I encounter. Since the new 3.5 inch AOL disks don't have easily expandable sector detects, I just start the tip of the cigarette through the "O" in "AOL". And the occasional AOL CD goes in the microwave to make pretty lights. > ashes right in there. Used to throw the floppy up and then jump on it. > In all those years, I lost one disk. Had my boots reheeled after that 8-) > But smoking and computers are A BIG NO!NO! I can see a problem with maybe > CD-ROMS and floppies - tar gumming up the works - but I have never had a > failure that wouldn't have been as bad if it was Kool-Aid or something. > I think sugar based stuff is the worst for computers. Conductive and > fluid! Ouch! Had a cat knock a 16oz. can of Midnight Dragon Ale into a keyboard once. Just a PC keyboard, so nothing crucial -- I gave the keyboard to an idiot to clean and make his own and spent $20 on a better keyboard. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 29 22:30:52 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: > Which reminds me, my oldest handheld is from Korea. It feels great on my > feet! My uncle picked it up for me in the mid-60's tho the design has been > around in Asia for centuries. Yeah, got three assorted items of that nature myself (abacuses? abaci? Never met anybody with more than one to tell me the proper plural!) -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Sun Jun 29 22:45:49 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <970629192434_1012898288@emout11.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 1997 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > actually, ive heard the plural for unix to be unices, rather than unixen, or > also expressed as *nix, for the different flavours of unix out there. the > hacker's dictionary is great though, just to read the words and their > origins. i've now got everyone at work to use the term "virtual friday" which > i picked out of the dictionary! =D Revisionist. The rendering of the plural of "Unix" to "Unices" is an attempt to make the word fit old Latin grammar, as in "aviatrix" to "aviatrices". It only works with feminine nouns, that being what the "ix" ending meant in old Latin. Unix is an American English word, so the "en" is appropriate. "*nix" is simply a word to try genericizing the many forms of Unixen to a singular form which offends nobody. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From william at ans.net Sun Jun 29 22:50:18 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199706300350.AA14365@interlock.ans.net> > I remember someone saying in one post about MCMXXX and the response being > *must have meant MCMLXXX* - why? Triode tubes (valves - I love that word) > were around - Why couldn't you build a computer using tubes from the 30's. Simply put, most (nearly 99.9%) toobs really do not like to work in a digital fashion. They get "sleeping sickness" - when cut-off for a period of time, electrons bunch up around the cathode (they are always emitted, but can not get past the grid). This electron cloud, unfortuneately, takes time to break apart after the grid bias turns the device on - resulting in a horrible response time for any gate. I suppose one could make ECL with vacuum techonology - keeping the digital states between cut-off and saturation, but the price of extra parts would be very large. Only in the 1950s did manufacturers start to make toobs that behaved in digital circuits. William Donzelli william@ans.net From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Sun Jun 29 22:54:45 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: USING classic machines Message-ID: <01IKNRSZCLR8A4MUM3@cc.usu.edu> > Even the kaypro, while fairly > fast has the slowest screen on the planet. I I beg to differ. The slowest screen on the planet is the Pro350. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Jun 29 23:34:32 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: Interesting S100 boards In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Sat, 28 Jun 1997 11:23:14 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199706300434.VAA09791@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail writes: > California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square > and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] > > Any idea what this stuff is? Well, no. I pulled a CCS catalog (dated Feb 1981) and took a look, and the only 28xx card was the 2810 Z80 CPU. As I read the catalog, though, I might expect 28xx to mean some sort of processor or coprocessor. Or maybe not; CCS weren't entirely consistent with their numbering scheme and the sample sizes weren't that large. -Frank McConnell From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 30 02:04:07 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:42 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition References: Message-ID: <33B75A67.2AE4@ndirect.co.uk> Brett wrote: > > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > There are computers that you could not possibly USE but they are > > important for what they meant (and mean today) in short for their > > "heritage". Without them you could not have used (and use) the ones you > > are using today. How about the Science of Cambridge (Sinclair) MK XIV ? It had 256 bytes (NOT Kb, BYTES) of RAM memory, LED display, not modulator and no way of storing programs (you could add these at a later stage as accessories). enrico From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Mon Jun 30 02:21:26 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:43 2005 Subject: bibliography References: Message-ID: <33B75E76.1936@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > - "Fumbling the Future" by Douglas Smith and Robert Alexander > > - "Halcion Days" By??? > > _Halcyon Days_ by James Hague, March 1997 (HTML on floppy) > On floppy ? Where can I get it then? Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jun 30 07:54:22 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:43 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <199706300350.AA14365@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Jun 29, 97 11:50:18 pm Message-ID: <9706301154.AA04219@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 856 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970630/f343afd0/attachment-0001.ksh From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Mon Jun 30 14:09:11 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:43 2005 Subject: Digital PDT-11/150 disk drive? Message-ID: <33B80457.5093@xlisper.mv.com> Anyone know where I could get a replacement disk drive for a Digital PDT-11/150? This is a machine with an LSI-11 processor and two 8 inch floppy drives that runs RT-11. I've got two machines but one has a floppy that doesn't work. I'd like to find a replacement drive if possible. Thanks in advance, David Betz -- David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz@aol.com (603) 472-2389 From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 30 10:55:02 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:43 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <33B75A67.2AE4@ndirect.co.uk> References: <33B75A67.2AE4@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <33b7d661.223116@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 07:04:07 +0000, you wrote: % %How about the Science of Cambridge (Sinclair) MK XIV ? It had 256 bytes %(NOT Kb, BYTES) of RAM memory, LED display, not modulator and no way of %storing programs (you could add these at a later stage as accessories). The Science of Cambridge Mk14 was sold and marketed as Mk14 and not MK XIV (AFAIK, still have an ad of it in Electronics Today International). Was SoC really Sinclair? I thought Sinclair and SoC were two different companies. Ben From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Mon Jun 30 17:03:50 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:43 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... In-Reply-To: References: <33B6B153.4E0A@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970630180350.006b8f58@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 11:06 PM 6/29/97 +0000, you wrote: >Hmmm. Interesting hypothesis. However, these boards are circa 1983, >while the 7800 is circa 1986 or something. The 7800 was completed and commercially ready in '84, but shelved by Atari (Tramiel) because of the apparent end to the videogame console industry that year, and their focus became home computers. But then in '86 when Nintendo started raking in millions showing that videogame consoles were more than a passing fad, they finally released the 7800 system. The 7800 was originally going to be upgradable to a 20K computer with a $100 keyboard/computer cartridge planned for late '84. Early model 7800s even sport the expansion port that was to be used to attach peripherals such as modems and printers. None of this was ever released. James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 30 17:51:37 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:43 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <2010@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <33B75A67.2AE4@ndirect.co.uk> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > Brett wrote: > > > > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > There are computers that you could not possibly USE but they are > > > important for what they meant (and mean today) in short for their > > > "heritage". Without them you could not have used (and use) the ones you > > > are using today. > I assume the following is one of the computers you claim can't possibly be used today... > How about the Science of Cambridge (Sinclair) MK XIV ? It had 256 bytes You mean an MK-14. I've never seen it printed in roman numerals (I have the machine, user manual, a couple of 3rd party books, the adverts, etc, etc,etc It was my first computer). > (NOT Kb, BYTES) of RAM memory, LED display, not modulator and no way of > storing programs (you could add these at a later stage as accessories). Perhaps you could explain _why_ I can't use one today. I've written many, many embedded control programs (monitor some inputs, update state variables, toggle outputs, etc) that would _trivially_ fit into 256 bytes of SC/MP code. If I add the optional INS8154 RAM/IO chip I have another 128 bytes of RAM and 16 bidirectional I/O lines. I can also add another 256 bytes by raiding my junk box for some 2111's. I can think of a few dozen applications that I could use that for. A trivial one is an I2C chip tester - replace the monitor ROMs with ones burnt to contain the correct code (avoids using the cassette interface option...), and have said code read I2C addresses/data from the hex keypad and bit-bang the I2C protocol on a couple of the 8154 lines. Or, how about a Centronics printer tester (emulate the centronics port on the 8154, make it print the classic scrolling ASCII text). Or a programmable pulse generator for digital IC testing. Or a hundred-and-one other applications. Yes, I can do any of those with a PC or many, many other machines. But the MK14 is small and portable. It doesn't need a monitor. It will start the program instantly at switch-on. It is still useful today. > > enrico > > -tony > From rcini at msn.com Mon Jun 30 17:45:35 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:43 2005 Subject: ROM Archive Message-ID: Bill: {...} > 2. Submission & storage: UUEncoded image file e-mailed to "repository"; > ROM/EPROM chips sent by snail mail and returned. All submissions should have > as much info about the source computer as possible (board revisions, date of > mnaufacture, etc.) >>I think that anything doing with the chips (purchasing, programming, >>shipping) should be left to the person that needs them. Sure, not very >>many people on the list have programmers, but there are enough kind souls >>that would do the programming. Anyway, having a policy concerning >>shipping and supply may turn into a big headache. I don't think that this would be a problem. I don't anticipate that many people would want it this way (we are all hardware hackers {in the nice sense}, after all). Even so, as long as a person doesn't want Fedex delivery, how bad can it be?? > 4. Cost: nominal (cost of postage and EPROM). >>Doing any more may actually be legally shakey. I don't think so. See one of my earlier messages on this topic. If you're posting a ROMimage, you have already "paid" your licensing fee because you own the machine. I'm just replacing a defective copy with a working copy (sort of like exchanging a defective diskette dor a working one). We're not "creating" or "copying" for distribution. Also, we can limit it to pre-PC machines. Chances are that these manufacturers are either out of business or no longer support the machine. >>Additional thought... >>How will additional required information be tied to the ROM images (as in >>manufacturers part numbers, revision levels, serial numbers, >>corresponding hardware information, etc.)? ROMS (and PALs) often change >>as the circuits get minor "improvements" (ECOs). I don't know yet. I'm grappling with this now. There are all sorts of issues with this: parts are house numbered, or not numbered at all. Maybe we can go by unit serial number, date-of-manufacture stickers, and pc-board identifications (such as "Revision A" or the like). ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 30 18:24:56 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:43 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970630180350.006b8f58@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, James Carter wrote: > At 11:06 PM 6/29/97 +0000, you wrote: > >Hmmm. Interesting hypothesis. However, these boards are circa 1983, > >while the 7800 is circa 1986 or something. > > The 7800 was completed and commercially ready in '84, but shelved by Atari > (Tramiel) because of the apparent end to the videogame console industry > that year, and their focus became home computers. But then in '86 when > Nintendo started raking in millions showing that videogame consoles were > more than a passing fad, they finally released the 7800 system. > > The 7800 was originally going to be upgradable to a 20K computer with a > $100 keyboard/computer cartridge planned for late '84. Early model 7800s > even sport the expansion port that was to be used to attach peripherals > such as modems and printers. None of this was ever released. Good info. I posted on comp.sys.atari8 but nobody has responded yet. I did find out that I have another one of the Encryptor boards, so that makes two. This one has label that says "Futurex". Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jun 30 18:37:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:43 2005 Subject: ROM Archive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > >>Additional thought... > >>How will additional required information be tied to the ROM images (as in > >>manufacturers part numbers, revision levels, serial numbers, > >>corresponding hardware information, etc.)? ROMS (and PALs) often change > >>as the circuits get minor "improvements" (ECOs). > > I don't know yet. I'm grappling with this now. There are all sorts of issues > with this: parts are house numbered, or not numbered at all. Maybe we can go > by unit serial number, date-of-manufacture stickers, and pc-board > identifications (such as "Revision A" or the like). I think without any markings on the chip you will have to go by the other clues on the board, such as revisions and part numbers. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 30 12:00:07 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:43 2005 Subject: Strange Tandy 1000HX Message-ID: I've just arranged for a Tandy 1000HX and it appears to be kind of odd. It was bought at one of Tandy's infamous 'tent sales' where they dispose of stuff they've had sitting around the local 'Shack, and the guy who bought it originally said that it didn't come with any 3-1/2" floppy installed and that both covers are still over the bays. It boots off of an external 5-1/4" drive, which if I remember correctly, is selectable easily enough by way of the SETUPHX program included with it's DOS diskettes. Do any of you TRS-80/Tandy knowledgable people remember ever seeing a HX set up like this? Every one of them I've ever seen new has come with a 3-1/2" floppy in the left-most bay, right next to the expansion connectors. I bought one of these nifty machines when they first appeared as well, and had an external 5-1/4" floppy and CM-11 monitor with it, as well as the PLUS memory, RS232 and 1200 bps modem cards. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon Jun 30 21:52:30 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:43 2005 Subject: Plural for Abacus References: <199706300702.AAA03766@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33B870EE.28C9@goldrush.com> >From: Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers >Subject: Re: 'Home' computer: Definition >On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: >> Which reminds me, my oldest handheld is from Korea. It feels great on my >> feet! My uncle picked it up for me in the mid-60's tho the design has been >> around in Asia for centuries. >Yeah, got three assorted items of that nature myself (abacuses? >abaci? Never met anybody with more than one to tell me the proper >plural!) >-- >Ward Griffiths Consulting "The Japanese Abacus; Its Use and Theory" by Takashi Kojima (12th printing, 1960) He uses "abacuses" as the plural form. (very interesting history that dates way back to Roman days and farther). Unfortunately I have a somewhat incompatible model from my book, on my wall is a chinese abacus with 5 and 2 beads per digit, where the japanese models use 4 and 1 (which sounds more logical to me, easier to execute a carry to the next digit.) An interesting chapter in the book covers a contest hosted by Stars & Stripes between a U.S. Pvt. in Macarthur's Finance Disbursing Section, (an awarded expert operator of calculators of the tim)e and a Japanese champion abacus operator from the Postal Ministry. As of 1946 the Japanese Abacuses were still able to beat the latest in American calculators. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 30 17:37:05 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:43 2005 Subject: Strange Tandy 1000HX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707010236.WAA06338@mail.cgocable.net> Jeff, Ok, put in generic 1.44 mb floppy drive and Pow! Why? that oddball half laptop shaped with out display pc has both 5v and 12v in place of several grounds lines in that internal floppy interface inside that 1000HX. Sometimes I use those newer 1.44 as a 720k substitute which works for XT's, heck, I did used one recently to boot up a IBM XT to make a new 360k disks from a bootable 720k 3.5" disks. While back, I converted both 720k HX floppy drives by cutting two thick traces on PCB and used them in clones. I think it used V40 cpu and, it will support 640k by itself by adding two bank worth of 256k x 1bit chips and move a jumper, it's on the little board with one chip on it. The 62pin bus is backwards and upside version of XT bus! Quite a project by itself to create a mini adapter using 62pin to a 90 deg slot to use MFM/RLL smallest hd controller but very doable via a small homebrew PCB. Otherwise use 8bit rom based scsi controller instead and find a small scsi hard drive which is much easier and more pleatiful. Easier this way because I did try to use XT IDE which is hairy work than that scsi solutions on a ZWL-183-92 laptop with external 5v drawn from laptop also to the card plugged via its XT type bus epansion slot and it saw the scsi hd easily. That is first step of my personal project to "standardize" that clunker to use standard scsi hd internally. In truth, 1000HX is very nifty machine in appearance and size. But I wished Tandy kept their heads and made more useful design in that same shells with 386 and pentium chips in it. :)) > I've just arranged for a Tandy 1000HX and it appears to be kind of odd. It > was bought at one of Tandy's infamous 'tent sales' where they dispose of stuff > they've had sitting around the local 'Shack, and the guy who bought it > originally said that it didn't come with any 3-1/2" floppy installed and that > both covers are still over the bays. It boots off of an external 5-1/4" > drive, which if I remember correctly, is selectable easily enough by way of > the SETUPHX program included with it's DOS diskettes. Huh? When we got this machine, we worked on it without needing that program...odd that's news to me. > Do any of you > TRS-80/Tandy knowledgable people remember ever seeing a HX set up like this? > Every one of them I've ever seen new has come with a 3-1/2" floppy in the > left-most bay, right next to the expansion connectors. I bought one of these > nifty machines when they first appeared as well, and had an external 5-1/4" > floppy and CM-11 monitor with it, as well as the PLUS memory, RS232 and 1200 > bps modem cards. > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jun 30 17:41:27 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:43 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <199706291543.LAA21758@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199707010241.WAA06790@mail.cgocable.net> Hey, that mailing list fudged part of my first line as their command which reported in error and refused to post it here. :( Q. Hold on, I would like to express my opinions... "Home Computer" term is invented by corporations to supposely help define their markets and totally miss it all the time because users needs is usually higher than their corporates' computers by factor of 1.5 to 2. At same time tries to pull off a coup on "home" users by selling stripped down with loads of cut corners and oft-nonstandard parts machine at horrible prices. Case in point: PCjr. PCjr and orignal 2 piece PS/1 (sold at 1000 bux cdn but you get no HD in it, introduced 1990's but users right away dumped them by pallets barely 2 years after. Yuk!) Side note: I traded few things to get this PS/1 2011 and used it for a while but sold it cheaply to a user who have modest needs than I. (for me, I can't manage well without hard drive attached even all the down to XT but not for apple II's their floppy drive is very fast enough to forgo hd, very impressed but at that time too expensive for my taste but now they are so cheap now.) So there was a bad taste to this name "home computers" in general. Similar types of computers did well in many areas but happened to lack important areas that killed it. Ironically, better to build DIY similar capablies 386, 80mb, 1mb, desktop/mono vga and still easily interchangable than that darned PS/1 2011 models. When I read about many machines and few "home computers" as called toys but I was mistaken when I saw and heard that "toy", boy, they're mistaken and I was taken too for a while! Indeed they were used for anything within their capablies so I accept anything that has CPU in it at same time useful and expandable should be decent computers, no more or less. :) C64, PET's, apples and such has just right stuff to keep users happy. In closing, corporations always underestimate "home" users. But now they are not pushing this word and crippled machines anymore, now selling them in general to any users execpt for corporations who needs turnkey system just to do very specific jobs like weak machine strictly for WP use, alphas for servers and heavy graphics, fast processor for programming but that is getting blurred that most users can afford them and can put them in their homes. Ok, now I could respond to yours... :) > I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms > indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. Suppose, Digital did not cared a whit and cut prices on that and we would be sure many would have one in home if they're small enough and easy on power requirements. Linux is there now and NT can be run on alphas but bit late and cost is fast appoaching to affordable levels where getting a pentium pro machine is not only option. > > For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in > general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as > any machine that you can: > > * Comfortably fit through your door... > > * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... > > * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... > > * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your home! > > Which just goes to show that such terminology is so relative, there's > little point in debating it. Why waste the bandwidth over something as > trivial as a difference in wording? > > (No, I'm not trying to start a flamewar; I posted this because I'm > concerned that the current thread regarding 'home' computers may erupt into > one!) > > Caveat Emperor! From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jun 27 12:47:06 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:43 2005 Subject: IBM 32174 Message-ID: <199707031310.GAA12432@mx4.u.washington.edu> Anyone want IBM 3174, software and a modem? Save it from the dump! Located in Ohio (near Cleveland) From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jun 27 12:28:46 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:43 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <199707031310.GAA04318@mx5.u.washington.edu> > Of course if you were a real hacker you had an M-code box that let you > write the native 10 bit (?) instructions for the 41's CPU (I forget what > it's called). I got more into the guts of the HP-71, which was a 20-bit, nybble-oriented. It had a Saturn chip (I think), on which I programmed in FORTH. A FORTH chip was talked about for the HP-41 (never heard it called a coco, though) but I don't know if it jelled. From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Jun 30 23:31:35 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:44 2005 Subject: who's on first? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970701003133.00989b10@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers happened to blather: >On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: >That was me. Yes, it might have been _possible_ to build a machine in >1930, but at that time nobody had made the connection between Babbage's >ideas and electronics. IIRC, it was John von Neuman who took that fatal >step, then published it. And then all Hell broke loose, and there is no >sign of the rift closing within our lifetimes. I _love_ it. With >respect to the old Chinese curse, we live in interesting times. And we >have done so since the Harvard Mark I. (Well, there _is_ that rumoured >German predecessor, but it was never advertised.) Uh, actually, try October 1939... with the ABC. That's the Atanasoff - Berry Computer, which is now recognized as the first functional electronic computer. I posted 2 or 3 URL's for more info on the web, if there's a searchable archive of this list, check there for my post. If not, I'll look it up in mine if I still have it. BTW, you're timeline is still a bit off... IIRC John von Neumann invented the stored-program concept, didn't he? It was Markus & someone who designed the first UNIVAC mostly with concepts hijacked from the ABC... methinks it was in 1972 or so when the U.S. Patent office yanked the patent away from them and gave it back to Atanasoff & Berry. Anywho, have fun, y'all! "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 30 18:35:21 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:45 2005 Subject: Strange Tandy 1000HX In-Reply-To: <199707010236.WAA06338@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On 01-Jul-97, jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: >Ok, put in generic 1.44 mb floppy drive and Pow! Why? that oddball I don't see much point in this though since the HX's controller won't handle the 1.44 meg drive anyway. Plus, it'd be easy enough to add a floppy drive to it, but supposedly neither knock-out plate has been punched out behind either of the drive bays! This is what prompted my original post. >I think it used V40 cpu and, it will support 640k by itself by adding >two bank worth of 256k x 1bit chips and move a jumper, it's on the >little board with one chip on it. The 62pin bus is backwards and >upside version of XT bus! Quite a project by itself to create a mini >adapter using 62pin to a 90 deg slot to use MFM/RLL smallest hd >controller but very doable via a small homebrew PCB. >Otherwise use 8bit rom based scsi controller instead and find a >small scsi hard drive which is much easier and more pleatiful. Actually, it's an 8088 running at like 7.16mhz I believe. One needs the PLUS Memory board to add the memory above 256k, the DMA functions, and the two additional PLUS connectors for the additional cards. That's a neat idea about the SCSI though...heck, it'd be a cinch fitting one of the newer drives into one of the 1" x 3-1/2" drive bays. The only problem would be power to the drive, since as you've already mentioned, Tandy likes to send the power through the ribbon cable. >In truth, 1000HX is very nifty machine in >appearance and size. But I wished Tandy kept their heads and made >more useful design in that same shells with 386 and pentium chips in >it. :)) Yes, true, but XT class machines were still pretty much the norm for the low-end in '87 when the HX appeared. I'm glad to be getting another one though and remember 'PCM' making a big deal about the machine, asking if it might not be the best 1000-series machine up to that time. Too bad Tandy didn't at least make it a 286 like the TX which came out about the same time. Jeff -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Jun 30 23:31:35 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:05 2005 Subject: who's on first? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970701003133.00989b10@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers happened to blather: >On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: >That was me. Yes, it might have been _possible_ to build a machine in >1930, but at that time nobody had made the connection between Babbage's >ideas and electronics. IIRC, it was John von Neuman who took that fatal >step, then published it. And then all Hell broke loose, and there is no >sign of the rift closing within our lifetimes. I _love_ it. With >respect to the old Chinese curse, we live in interesting times. And we >have done so since the Harvard Mark I. (Well, there _is_ that rumoured >German predecessor, but it was never advertised.) Uh, actually, try October 1939... with the ABC. That's the Atanasoff - Berry Computer, which is now recognized as the first functional electronic computer. I posted 2 or 3 URL's for more info on the web, if there's a searchable archive of this list, check there for my post. If not, I'll look it up in mine if I still have it. BTW, you're timeline is still a bit off... IIRC John von Neumann invented the stored-program concept, didn't he? It was Markus & someone who designed the first UNIVAC mostly with concepts hijacked from the ABC... methinks it was in 1972 or so when the U.S. Patent office yanked the patent away from them and gave it back to Atanasoff & Berry. Anywho, have fun, y'all! "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jun 30 18:35:21 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:07 2005 Subject: Strange Tandy 1000HX In-Reply-To: <199707010236.WAA06338@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On 01-Jul-97, jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: >Ok, put in generic 1.44 mb floppy drive and Pow! Why? that oddball I don't see much point in this though since the HX's controller won't handle the 1.44 meg drive anyway. Plus, it'd be easy enough to add a floppy drive to it, but supposedly neither knock-out plate has been punched out behind either of the drive bays! This is what prompted my original post. >I think it used V40 cpu and, it will support 640k by itself by adding >two bank worth of 256k x 1bit chips and move a jumper, it's on the >little board with one chip on it. The 62pin bus is backwards and >upside version of XT bus! Quite a project by itself to create a mini >adapter using 62pin to a 90 deg slot to use MFM/RLL smallest hd >controller but very doable via a small homebrew PCB. >Otherwise use 8bit rom based scsi controller instead and find a >small scsi hard drive which is much easier and more pleatiful. Actually, it's an 8088 running at like 7.16mhz I believe. One needs the PLUS Memory board to add the memory above 256k, the DMA functions, and the two additional PLUS connectors for the additional cards. That's a neat idea about the SCSI though...heck, it'd be a cinch fitting one of the newer drives into one of the 1" x 3-1/2" drive bays. The only problem would be power to the drive, since as you've already mentioned, Tandy likes to send the power through the ribbon cable. >In truth, 1000HX is very nifty machine in >appearance and size. But I wished Tandy kept their heads and made >more useful design in that same shells with 386 and pentium chips in >it. :)) Yes, true, but XT class machines were still pretty much the norm for the low-end in '87 when the HX appeared. I'm glad to be getting another one though and remember 'PCM' making a big deal about the machine, asking if it might not be the best 1000-series machine up to that time. Too bad Tandy didn't at least make it a 286 like the TX which came out about the same time. Jeff -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757