From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Apr 1 01:16:07 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:26:57 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970331231607.006d3890@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:01 PM 3/31/97 -0800, you wrote: > >I was talking to a friend this weekend who brought >up this idea that before long EPROMs in our old >computers are going to start to go bad. This is >something I've heard before but, to be honest, I >don't know enough to make a judgement on it. If >this is the case, I suppose I should be burning >backups. > >While I'm at it... What are some other concerns >along these lines. What should we be planning >for as these machines grow 5, 10, 15 years older? Good questions all, so some comments and some thoughts. EPROMS: yes, they will forget. Being stored charge devices they will eventually start to lose the stored information. As I recall the original estimated life for stored data was 10-15 years. Punched tape (mylar preferably or paper if stored properly) may be the closest thing we have to a true "archival" medium. Electrolytic Capacitors: They dry out, or will start to ooze the electrolyte. (I address this to some extent on the 'Repair Tips & Tricks' section on my web pages) Average lifetime (of large caps such as found in power supplies) is probably 5-10 years. On machines that I restore they are (almost) always replaced before I do anything else. The very small caps found on logic boards for timing and similar circuits do not seem to be a prone to failure. Disks: depends highly on how they are stored. Should be treated similar to records. (remember those?) Store upright, loosely packed, dry but cool. Watch for oxide flaking on very old disks. Tapes: similar to disks for storage. Should be retensioned (repacked?) from time to time. (fast forward to end, then rewind) As with disks, watch for oxide flaking. Dampness will cause some tapes to adhere to itself, and strip off the oxide when run. Had this happen to my "Standard Pack" tape for an HP-85 I obtained recently. Went to load the tape and got a read error. Manual inspection of the tape showed a 3/4 inch strip where there was no oxide at all. it was stripped away by the tape adhesion when I rewound the tape for probably the first time in 4-5 years! Card edge connectors: corrosion is common, expecially is stored in damp places or contaminated by skin oils. Can be cleaned with the classic "Pink Pearl" eraser. (Don't use the grey erasers - too abrasive!) Hmmm... probably more, but it's late and I forget... (often it seems - bad EPROM?) More later... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Apr 1 01:16:07 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:03 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970331231607.006d3890@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:01 PM 3/31/97 -0800, you wrote: > >I was talking to a friend this weekend who brought >up this idea that before long EPROMs in our old >computers are going to start to go bad. This is >something I've heard before but, to be honest, I >don't know enough to make a judgement on it. If >this is the case, I suppose I should be burning >backups. > >While I'm at it... What are some other concerns >along these lines. What should we be planning >for as these machines grow 5, 10, 15 years older? Good questions all, so some comments and some thoughts. EPROMS: yes, they will forget. Being stored charge devices they will eventually start to lose the stored information. As I recall the original estimated life for stored data was 10-15 years. Punched tape (mylar preferably or paper if stored properly) may be the closest thing we have to a true "archival" medium. Electrolytic Capacitors: They dry out, or will start to ooze the electrolyte. (I address this to some extent on the 'Repair Tips & Tricks' section on my web pages) Average lifetime (of large caps such as found in power supplies) is probably 5-10 years. On machines that I restore they are (almost) always replaced before I do anything else. The very small caps found on logic boards for timing and similar circuits do not seem to be a prone to failure. Disks: depends highly on how they are stored. Should be treated similar to records. (remember those?) Store upright, loosely packed, dry but cool. Watch for oxide flaking on very old disks. Tapes: similar to disks for storage. Should be retensioned (repacked?) from time to time. (fast forward to end, then rewind) As with disks, watch for oxide flaking. Dampness will cause some tapes to adhere to itself, and strip off the oxide when run. Had this happen to my "Standard Pack" tape for an HP-85 I obtained recently. Went to load the tape and got a read error. Manual inspection of the tape showed a 3/4 inch strip where there was no oxide at all. it was stripped away by the tape adhesion when I rewound the tape for probably the first time in 4-5 years! Card edge connectors: corrosion is common, expecially is stored in damp places or contaminated by skin oils. Can be cleaned with the classic "Pink Pearl" eraser. (Don't use the grey erasers - too abrasive!) Hmmm... probably more, but it's late and I forget... (often it seems - bad EPROM?) More later... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From william at ans.net Tue Apr 1 11:52:29 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:03 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970331231607.006d3890@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <199704011752.AA23897@interlock.ans.net> > Electrolytic Capacitors: They dry out, or will start to ooze the > electrolyte. (I address this to some extent on the 'Repair Tips & Tricks' > section on my web pages) Average lifetime (of large caps such as found in > power supplies) is probably 5-10 years. On machines that I restore they > are (almost) always replaced before I do anything else. The very small > caps found on logic boards for timing and similar circuits do not seem to > be a prone to failure. I think the average lifetime may be longer for electrolytics, especially those made in the past thirty years. I have had decent luck getting 50 year old capacitors alive again - but only if they are treated right. The best way to keep them happy is to reform them, treat them gently, and use them. Most of the following probably is better suited to guys with minis, as often they have not been powered for 10 years and stored in a damp warehouse... Always disconnect the power supply(s) and check them out first! For non-switching supplies, disconnect the output (no load condition) and use a variac (variable transformer) on the input. Slowly ramp up the variac, starting from 0. For really old electronics, I do this over a 30 minutes, but that might be me being over-cautious. An ammeter on the input is also handy, in case something starts to go (moisture in transformers - but that is a different rant). For switching supplies, connect a decent load, as some units _need_ a load or they will break. Still ramp up the input voltage, but do it quickly - perhaps over just a few seconds (the supplies will complain about the low input voltage). I suppose the best thing to do is to power the capacitors out of circuit - probably too much work for electonics of this vintage. The object of all of this is to prevent the capacitors from getting whacked with full voltage from the rectifier. The longer the ramp-up on the input, the better, as it allows the electroyte in the capacitor to reform (I do not know the exact chemical reactions that take place during decay and reformation, but I could probably dig them up). Finally, the best way to keep the capacitors from decaying is to use them from time to time - just like a vintage car engine. Eventually they will wear out, but I think that would be _far_ longer than 10 or 15 years. Tantalum capacitors are pretty bulletproof, and do not need this treatment. > Card edge connectors: corrosion is common, especially is stored in damp > places or contaminated by skin oils. Can be cleaned with the classic "Pink > Pearl" eraser. (Don't use the grey erasers - too abrasive!) I would not do this, unless it is followed by a cleaning with a solvent of some sort. Erasers do leave a residue, mainly in the microscopic pits in the metal. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 1 13:19:41 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:03 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Mar 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > My other worry is storage. Magnetic tapes and disks do not last forever. > Hard disks do not last forever. How long until the last 8 incher finally > gives up the ghost and sheds all of its bits? I know that there are still > a few places which sell them, but how much longer will they be manufactured? > How long until the last MFM hard drive wears out? Amazingly, all my Apple software starting from the mid-80s is still functional. I used to pull each disk out and test for errors every now and then but I haven't done this in probably 5 years. Recently I've been playing with my Apple again and all my software seems to be still in tact, but I worry about them degrading. I hope to transfer them all to disk images on my PC (hopefully soon) so that as a side benefit I can enjoy them on my emulator. I'm amazed that the disks are still sound since I used to buy those bulk diskettes that you could get through catalogs like Computer Direct ($.19 in quantities of 50). Those weren't the best quality diskettes, or were they? I also have a Sider ][ harddrive for my Apple that was probably manufactured in 1984 or 1985 and it's still running fine (knock on everything). Imagine that...a 12 year old MFM harddrive still going strong. It used to run a BBS early on so its seen some days. > Most manuals were not printed on acid free paper, how long until they > start to turn to dust? Photocopy! > How long do cassette tapes last? Make copies! > In 50 to 100 years how many of the machines that run fine today will > not be usable because there are no disks on which to store programs or > data? I was just thinking of this the other day. I haven't booted any of my classic computers in a couple years. I'm afraid that the next time I fire one up the circuits won't be able to handle the sudden current and will fry. I was wondering if there was some way to start them off with an undercurrent for a second or so and then go to full voltage. I don't know if this is feasible or even recommended. Will this do more harm than good? > I have come across some solutions, though none of them are really > optimal: > > Use a PC with a high grade sound card to store and load cassette data to > older machines. I don't personally know if anyone has really done this. Good idea. Basically you are just sampling the cassette audio signals and storing them on your PC hard drive. > Store critical data (ROM images) on punched mylar tape. I would simply store these as a disk image on a PC as well. > Store disk images on CDROM. (How long do these last? I've heard 50 > years, can anyone confirm this?) This has the problem of moving the > data from the CD to the target machine. I don't think that my PX-8 > can understand ISO 9660 file systems. Serial communications. Read each block of data from the source data medium and transfer over the source's serial ports (if it is lucky enough to have one) to your PC. > For the near term we can backup every disk we acquire. Pull out the > old machines at least once a year and make new backups. Stockpile > anything which will wear out. Keep everything clean, out of direct > sunlight, and within a reasonable temperature range. Good idea. I would also suggest using compressed air to blow out any dust should your systems be exposed to any. I have most of my smaller classic computers wrapped in anti-static bags that I got from worked and then packed them in cardboard boxes with packing foam and taped up the boxes. Snug as a bug. > Anyone have any really good long-term solutions for the preservation > of our machines? Put them in stasis like in Star Trek. Store them in a vacuum. Clone them like sheep. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at eleventh.com Tue Apr 1 01:29:37 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:03 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 01-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >We ORIC users do exactly this -- use a PC sound card to transfer/copy those >old program tapes. Works wonderfully. You might want to take a look at the >Oric pages on http://www.ensica.fr/oric to see if any of the technology in >use there is worthwhile for your needs. I would think that all that would be needed was a standard cassette player that has both a MIC jack and a line-out jack. To make a WAV or other format recording of the data cassette, one would just plug the line out of the cassette player into the line-in on the soundcard and use your favorite recording software. You'd likely have to play with the volume to get it just right though. One would do just the opposite to create a copy of the data cassette file: plug the line-out of the soundcard up to the MIC jack on the cassette recorder. Again, it's likely one would have to play with the volume level for a bit. I used to use my home stereo system for my Timex-Sinclair's mass storage, and sometimes it got outright picky about the volume! The question then is: what sampling rate would be the best overall for this? Obviously, I don't think you'd need to use the stereo mode, but it'd be nice to keep the file size down if possible, without affecting the quality of the recording. I realize it'd be on shaky ground legally, but would any of you be interested in creating an archive of these data tape images? This would certainly ensure the programs originally provided on tape would be around much longer than the original tapes themselves. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 1 14:28:56 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:03 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, hellige wrote: > I realize it'd be on shaky ground legally, but would any of you be > interested in creating an archive of these data tape images? This would > certainly ensure the programs originally provided on tape would be around much > longer than the original tapes themselves. This debate has raged on and off for months on Apple2 newsgroups. People who are doing the copying and archiving are arguing that they are preserving classic apple2 software, while those against it say it is piracy since some of the titles are still commercially available. My view is this: if it is no longer available, and will not likely ever become available again, right or wrong, nobody is going to raise a stink about it. Simply put, it IS preservation. Worst case, just do it and don't tell anyone. Think of this. Recently, Levi's Strauss paid over $100,000 for a pair of Levi's jeans from the late 1800's. The reason they paid so much is because they were original jeans made by the company back then and were of significant historical value. Obviously, Levi's was very grateful to recover a piece of its long past history to have paid so much for a pair of old jeans. I know this case is different in significant ways from copying once copyrighted software, but I believe in 20, 50, 100 years, a lot of these companies that manufactured computers and software (should they still be around) will be delighted to know a piece of their long lost past has been preserved by enthusiastic collectors. I say do it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Apr 1 23:59:59 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:03 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: <199704011752.AA23897@interlock.ans.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19970331231607.006d3890@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970401215959.00cce370@agora.rdrop.com> At 12:52 PM 4/1/97 -0500, you wrote: >> Electrolytic Capacitors: They dry out, or will start to ooze the >> electrolyte. (I address this to some extent on the 'Repair Tips & Tricks' >> section on my web pages) Average lifetime (of large caps such as found in >> power supplies) is probably 5-10 years. On machines that I restore they >> are (almost) always replaced before I do anything else. The very small >> caps found on logic boards for timing and similar circuits do not seem to >> be a prone to failure. > >I think the average lifetime may be longer for electrolytics, especially >those made in the past thirty years. I have had decent luck getting 50 >year old capacitors alive again - but only if they are treated right. The >best way to keep them happy is to reform them, treat them gently, and use >them. True enough in many cases, but check them before proceeding... >Tantalum capacitors are pretty bulletproof, and do not need this treatment. Yep! >> Card edge connectors: corrosion is common, especially is stored in damp >> places or contaminated by skin oils. Can be cleaned with the classic "Pink >> Pearl" eraser. (Don't use the grey erasers - too abrasive!) > >I would not do this, unless it is followed by a cleaning with a solvent >of some sort. Erasers do leave a residue, mainly in the microscopic pits >in the metal. Agreed. The part I seem to have omitted that is part of my regular routine after cleaning with the eraser is to remove all residue with a soft (non-static) cloth. I've tended to avoid solvents on PC boards when possible. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From kevan at motiv.co.uk Wed Apr 2 02:39:02 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:03 2005 Subject: Enterprise Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704020839.JAA11661@cream.motiv.co.uk> In message you write: > This is for all of our European members. I'm interested in the Enterprise > line of computers, either the 64 or the 128. How common are these machines i > n > Europe? Would it be hard to find one? > I have found it hard to find one. I have come close on a couple of occasions but have been pipped to the post by another collector. So I would say they are quite rare. Kevan From kevan at motiv.co.uk Wed Apr 2 03:14:25 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:03 2005 Subject: Weekend Scavenging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704020914.KAA12367@cream.motiv.co.uk> Bill Wrote: > > It was a good weekend ;) > I will have to agree with you here. I find the spring car boot sales here in the UK tend to be very good, and the ones over this holiday weekend to be especially good. My find of the weekend was another Anita calculator that has a nixie tube display. (My dad is getting very good at spotting calculators at the bottom of a box.) It does have a few problems but more on this later. The Anita was among the dozen calculators, two Intellivisions (both with speech modules), various Atari XE & 2600 cartridges, a G7000 + a dozen carts and the first reasonably priced (3 pounds) Spectrum +2. I also picked up a couple of old Speak & Spell and a couple of Little Professors (one LCD & one LED) These last ones are educational things for my new daughter, well that's my excuse anyway. The Anita mostly works. The tubes all work, it is just the number keys produce the wrong numbers. One of the circuit boards looks like it has some water damage, and maybe some rust under the whiteish residue. What is the best way of cleaning this? -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: From classicjr at juno.com Tue Apr 1 10:04:09 1997 From: classicjr at juno.com (Jeffrey G. Rottman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:03 2005 Subject: Laser PC-4 References: <199704010802.AAA19566@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19970402.070110.5351.0.classicjr@juno.com> I have had a response to my request to find a Laser PC-4 Notebook computer from someone here, but they referred me to a reseller that has modified it by adding a larger screen and more memory, which is fine, except now it doesn't have software for appointments and a clock calendar, I don't believe. They call it a Laser PC-5. Does anyone know where I could find a real PC-4 as sold several years ago? I would be interested in a used one. Respond here or at : rotation@juno.com From classicjr at juno.com Wed Apr 2 02:02:04 1997 From: classicjr at juno.com (classicjr@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:03 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 11 Message-ID: <19970402.083442.5303.2.classicjr@juno.com> CLASSICCMP Digest 11 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: How long will they last? by William Donzelli 2) Re: How long will they last? by Sam Ismail 3) Re: How long will they last? by hellige I found these diggin' around other News Groups and thought of you guys - instantly 8-) >From: "Tom Jacobson" >Subject: Morrow computer >Date: 31 Mar 1997 19:20:26 GMT > >This is my thir day on the "net"...really..! >I have a Morrow MD2 (2 floppy disk system) with a lot of Morrow >newsletters, original software etc. >Yes (at last check) it did work fine. >Is anyone interested in this thing. I hate to get rid of it..was my >first system. But no use in having it around. - And - >From: ninja@asu.edu (Jay Noh) >Subject: TRS-80 Model-100 FS >Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 01:57:24 -0700 > >TRS-80 Model 100 portable forsale. >Asking $100. >Please reply via e-mail. >-- >Jay Noh (ninja@asu.edu) >ASU Dept. of CSE, 5406 >Tempe, AZ 85287-5406 BC From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Apr 2 12:26:20 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:03 2005 Subject: mitsubishi MP386 help please Message-ID: <970402132618_-669429383@emout13.mail.aol.com> i recently acquired a mitsubishi MP386 machine; a proprietary late 1980s 386dx-16. i need to configure the hdd and monitor since it will not boot properly, but it doesnt have a standard cmos, and has dip switches in the front which i cant figure out even after trial and error. does anyone have information on this machine before i round file it? david (suprdave@aol.com) From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Apr 2 20:42:09 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:03 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: ; from "Bill Whitson" at Mar 31, 97 6:01 pm Message-ID: <199704021942.12089@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > I was talking to a friend this weekend who brought > up this idea that before long EPROMs in our old > computers are going to start to go bad. This is > something I've heard before but, to be honest, I > don't know enough to make a judgement on it. If > this is the case, I suppose I should be burning > backups. Don't bother with burning backups (after all, the backup will only last another 10 years), but dump the data (as a plain binary file) to a suitable archival storage medium. What I recomend is _before_ even powering up a machine is to dump all the ROMs, the PALs (an amazing number of classic computers have non-copy-protected PALS), etc to a PC-format disk. Then punch any really rare stuff onto paper tape (You may laugh, but I've _never_ found a paper tape that I can't read, and EPROM files are not that big in general). If the chips ever fail in the future, then It's easy to burn a new EPROM then. > > While I'm at it... What are some other concerns > along these lines. What should we be planning > for as these machines grow 5, 10, 15 years older? Well, there's no problem with standard electronic parts (resistors, capacitors, TTL chips, etc). I don't think you'll have any problems finding those in 15 years time. Other chips are more of a problem. AMD2900 bit-slice chips are getting hard to find, and a lot of minicomputers and their peripherals depend on them. But I'm not sure that if I buy any now they'll still be good in 10 years time. ASICs are a big problem. Basically, there's no hope if they fail. You can't copy them at home. The best thing to do is to figure out _exactly_ how they work, the timing of all the signals, etc, and to record that. If the chip fails, and you can't get one, then at least you can make a clone out of TTL or something like a Xilinx FPGA. I'd also recomend recording any information now that would be of use if the machine failed. If you know what you are doing, note down the voltages on the CRT electrodes in a monitor. The waveforms in the PLL of a disk controller, that sort of thing. Basically, annotate the service manual with details of _your_ machine. > > Bill Whitson > ClassicCmp "owner" > bcw@u.washington.edu bill@booster.u.washington.edu > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Apr 2 20:53:45 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:03 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: <199704010320.VAA23487@saucer.cc.umr.edu>; from "Starling" at Mar 31, 97 9:20 pm Message-ID: <199704021953.12422@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> [EPROMs] > I'm not an electrical engineer, but as I understand it, it's not an > actual problem with the hardware of the machine itself. It's just that > the magnetic alignment in the EPROM (erasable programmable read only Actually, it's an electrostatic charge that leaks away. The effect is much the same, though - the chip can be reprogrammed, and works fine. It just forgets the data that should be in it. But chips (_all_ chips) can and do fail. So I'd recomend backing up ROMs, PROMs (the fusible-link type used for address decoders, state machines, etc), PALs, etc. Everything. > memory) disintigrates. However if you have a backup of the chip, it can > be re-programed using an EPROM burner. > > I know that for Atari 2600 cartridges, only prototype and low-quality 3rd > party cartridges were made with EPROMs in them. I'd be surprised if any Yes, but ROMs can fail as well. You should still keep backups. > machines actually use EPROMs to store the ROM kernels, but perhaps they > do. If so, a list of affected machines should be made. Perhaps I should Classic PERQs have an EPROM on the I/O board for the Z80 code. PERQ 3a's have the bootstrap in EPROM. I've got DEC-compatable boards with EPROMs on them. I'm sure a lot of other machine have EPROMs in them - particularly the machines made in smaller quantities - which are therefore rarer, and more important to preserve. Remember that an EPROM need not be in a ceramic package with a quartz window. OTP (One Time Programmable) EPROMs are in a normal plastic package. They can't be erased by UV light (there's no way for it to reach the actual chip), but they program just like EPROMs, and they suffer from bit-rot just the same. If in doubt, back it up. > I've always wondered about the use of electrolytic capacitors in > computers. I believe that these buggers go bad after a while and need to > be replaced. Is this true? Well, it's not a real problem. I've had exactly one big electrolytic fail in _all_ my computers (and I have machines over 25 years old). That one was in a PDP11/44, and was damaged when the PSU overheated (amazingly, it was the only damage!). But capacitors are standard parts. Unless you insist on only using the original manufacturers components, it's not hard to find replacements for them. I don't worry about that at all. > > I've also always been concered about floppy disks going bad. Do they > have a definately lifespan? If so, it might be hard to find new 5.25", 8" > or 3.25" (a la Amstrad) disks on which to copy ailing files. > Yes, disks do go bad after a time, alas. The only compensation is that the older disks (particularly 8") seem to last a lot longer than the modern 3.5" ones. > chris starling > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Apr 2 21:18:14 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:03 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: <199704011752.AA23897@interlock.ans.net>; from "William Donzelli" at Apr 1, 97 12:52 (noon) Message-ID: <199704022018.13427@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I think the average lifetime may be longer for electrolytics, especially > those made in the past thirty years. I have had decent luck getting 50 > year old capacitors alive again - but only if they are treated right. The > best way to keep them happy is to reform them, treat them gently, and use > them. The other big point is that (in general) computer capacitors are standard parts. A 5000uF capacitor in a DEC PSU is replaceable by a standard 4700uF one, avaialbe from a dozen suppliers in the UK alone. OK, so it may not _look_ original, but the machine still works. [...] > Always disconnect the power supply(s) and check them out first! For > non-switching supplies, disconnect the output (no load condition) and use Absolutely. This is not to protect the PSU, but to protect the rest of the machine. An overvoltage on the 5V line can ruin _every_ chip in the machine. It's at times like those that you are glad of the ROM backups :-) Seriously, I _never_ power up a machine without first checking the PSU on a dummy load. Only once was the supply faulty (and the 5V line sat at about 8.5V), but none the less I do it. I seems sensible to make sure you're not about to ruin a piece of history. [...] > For switching supplies, connect a decent load, as some units _need_ a > load or they will break. Still ramp up the input voltage, but do it Light bulbs make good dummy loads. I was suprised that my DEC PC04 tape reader uses a 12V car bulb running off the 5V line - and it's still quite bright. I guess car headlamp bulbs would be ideal for SMPS loads. You can get 6V car bulbs in the UK, BTW, but I had to order some when I wanted them In general you only need to load the main output - the one it takes regulation from. This is likely to be a 5V output, but check the schematics to be sure. For example, the PSU in my DEC LA324 printer has a 36V main output. > quickly - perhaps over just a few seconds (the supplies will complain > about the low input voltage). I suppose the best thing to do is to power > the capacitors out of circuit - probably too much work for electonics of > this vintage. It's not necessary to run up _every_ small capacitor. It may be worth doing the big ones, particularly the mains smoothing caps in an SMPS. > Tantalum capacitors are pretty bulletproof, and do not need this treatment. Odd, I've had a couple of tants go short circuit with impressive results (pop, smoke, small flame). No other damage, though. > > > Card edge connectors: corrosion is common, especially is stored in damp > > places or contaminated by skin oils. Can be cleaned with the classic "Pink > > Pearl" eraser. (Don't use the grey erasers - too abrasive!) > > I would not do this, unless it is followed by a cleaning with a solvent > of some sort. Erasers do leave a residue, mainly in the microscopic pits > in the metal. I clean my edge connectors with propan-2-ol (available in spray cans from Electrolube). It removes most dirt, and doesn't damage the card edge. I never use abrasives near a computer... > William Donzelli -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From william at ans.net Wed Apr 2 15:49:31 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:03 2005 Subject: PDP-8 boards? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970401215959.00cce370@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <199704022149.AA26129@interlock.ans.net> Can anyone enlighten me on the following? >(1) M8330 >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M1 1k prom board >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M2 1k prom board >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M3 1k prom board >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M4 1k prom board > >The prom boards have Intel 1702A eproms on them, but they are soldered in. I am pretty sure the first is one of the processor cards from a PDP-8/e, but I have no idea what the other boards are for. The 1702As, as noted, are soldered in, which makes me think that this was more than just a generic, burn-your-own-ROM card set. Also, if the M8330 is surplus to me (I think I have quite a few base 8/e card sets, save the bus load card), does anyone want it? William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Apr 2 23:00:29 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:03 2005 Subject: PDP-8 boards? In-Reply-To: <199704022149.AA26129@interlock.ans.net>; from "William Donzelli" at Apr 2, 97 4:49 pm Message-ID: <199704022200.16234@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Can anyone enlighten me on the following? > > >(1) M8330 PDP8/e Clock Generator/Timing logic. Part of the CPU board set (along with M8300 and M8310, which are the data path and control in some order) as you guessed > >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M1 1k prom board > >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M2 1k prom board > >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M3 1k prom board > >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M4 1k prom board > > > >The prom boards have Intel 1702A eproms on them, but they are soldered in. They are 1K * 13 bits (!) of EPROM (7 off 1702s), + an optional 256 12 bit words of RAM. The idea is that if the 13th bit of a word is clear, then the processor sees the other 12 bits of that EPROM location. If the 13th bit is set then 8 bits of the EPROM data select one of the RAM locations, which can be read/written by the CPU. It basically gives you 1K of EPROM with the ability to have some changeable locations in the middle of it. > > I am pretty sure the first is one of the processor cards from a PDP-8/e, > but I have no idea what the other boards are for. > > The 1702As, as noted, are soldered in, which makes me think that > this was more than just a generic, burn-your-own-ROM card set. You'll notice there are _8_ edge plugs on these boards. The bottom 4 (away from the EPROMs) go into a normal Omnibus slot. The top 4 take 4 little shorting blocks that link the pins on the solder side to the pins on the component side. The pins on the component side are linked to the EPROMs, those on the solder side to the rest of the logic. To program it, you pull off the shorting blocks and link up a special programmer to the top connectors. AFAIK it was just a generic ROM board. The PDP8/e Maintenance Manual Volume 2 covers it, but doesn't AFAIK mention any versions for specific applications, like bootstraps. On the other hand, the set of 4 boards you mentioned just might contain some standard code. > William Donzelli -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 2 18:06:10 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Weekend Scavenging In-Reply-To: <199704020914.KAA12367@cream.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: > > It was a good weekend ;) > > I will have to agree with you here. I find the spring car boot sales > here in the UK tend to be very good, and the ones over this holiday > weekend to be especially good. I'll agree partially. Maybe it's Edinburgh, or maybe it's just Commodore, but so far the only machines I've managed to find are Commodores. Lots of 64s and a couple of Amiga 500s. Booooooring. Then again, I did get a couple of Commodore 16s two weeks ago. But nothing more interesting than that. I think I should try going to the sales a bit earlier. Maybe there are more crazed collectors around here. :-) --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From wbrco at valuenet.net Wed Apr 2 22:14:55 1997 From: wbrco at valuenet.net (Allen Underdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: PDP-8 boards? References: <199704022149.AA26129@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <33432EBE.445C@valuenet.net> William Donzelli wrote: > > Can anyone enlighten me on the following? > > >(1) M8330 > >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M1 1k prom board > >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M2 1k prom board > >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M3 1k prom board > >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M4 1k prom board > > > >The prom boards have Intel 1702A eproms on them, but they are soldered in. > > I am pretty sure the first is one of the processor cards from a PDP-8/e, > but I have no idea what the other boards are for. > > The 1702As, as noted, are soldered in, which makes me think that > this was more than just a generic, burn-your-own-ROM card set. > > Also, if the M8330 is surplus to me (I think I have quite a few base 8/e > card sets, save the bus load card), does anyone want it? > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net Ok, a PDP-8 question. Which version used the Harris IML6100 processor? My first bench job was fixing Transaction II compatable charge card machines based on this processor. I was told that it was the PDP-8 proc, all 12 multiplexed bus bits of it. Cmos processor, no bus drivers, driving straigt into the edge card connector. Spent a lot of time cleaning edge connectors. So much that I had to "re-plate" them with the soldering iron when the copper started to show through too much. But that was a VERY long time ago! -- | Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | | Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | | homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | | Try My BBS at 314.939.9445! | From wbrco at valuenet.net Wed Apr 2 22:24:15 1997 From: wbrco at valuenet.net (Allen Underdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamvention Message-ID: <334330EF.4F23@valuenet.net> How many of the crazies that get this list will be attending? If there's enough of us, maybe we can do lunch and complain about the bland sloppy joe that's served! I know a lot of the "informal" nets meet in the lunch room, so I'm sure we could chisel out some chairs! -- | Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | | Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | | homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | | Try My BBS at 314.939.9445! | From ronaldm at mars.ark.com Thu Apr 3 11:04:37 1997 From: ronaldm at mars.ark.com (Ron Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Weekend Scavenging Message-ID: <199704031704.JAA28068@mars.ark.com> > >Yep, it was another profitable weekend scavenging mission! You were indeed busy. :) 2. Tandy Color Computer. Boasts a whopping 4k! Fixed a broken >keyboard - now all I have to do is find some software. Is this a RADIO Shack Co-Co? If so, I have software, but I don't think any of it would run in 4k. The model I have is a 64k version. > >5. HP Series 100. This one doesn't currently work. It will >probably be a project for some upcoming weekend. Anyone know >what it is? Very strange little machine... I have 2 HP150's. If your HP100 is a forerunner, it could be constructed such that the computer and monitor are in one unit. Do you have a keyboard with it? I really have no knowledge of the earlier model you have, but there is a FIDOnet echo devoted to Hewlett Packard's equipment, and I believe there were some contacts on there who know a thing or two about the older machines. -Ron Mitchell From ronaldm at mars.ark.com Thu Apr 3 11:04:40 1997 From: ronaldm at mars.ark.com (Ron Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: How long will they last? Message-ID: <199704031704.JAA28071@mars.ark.com> > >I was talking to a friend this weekend who brought >up this idea that before long EPROMs in our old >computers are going to start to go bad. According to the experts in our Coleco ADAM group, there is truth to this. Apparently computer chips generally have a tendency to fail after about 10 years. I have 4 Coleco ADAMs all roughly the same age (12 years) and I've yet to experience this problem with any of them. Unfortunately in our case 1 of the chips, the MIOC or Memory Input/Output Controller is a rarity and apparently cannot be duplicated. Most of us have been stockpiling old ADAMs in the hopes of keeping ourselves going as long as we can. (We're like Edsul owners... we refuse to give up). At any rate, I don't know of anyone in our community who has experienced the problem.... yet, but we've been warned. -Ron Mitchell From ronaldm at mars.ark.com Thu Apr 3 11:04:42 1997 From: ronaldm at mars.ark.com (Ron Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: How long will they last? Message-ID: <199704031704.JAA28074@mars.ark.com> > >How long do cassette tapes last? > I'm still getting data reliably off of Coleco Datapacks that I recorded circa 1986. But I've heard there are limitations. Don't use the tapes much any more. One person talking about this a while back claimed it was better to store casettes vertically rather than horizontally. Never paid much heed to that, so I don't know if it's true or not. -Ron Mitchell From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Apr 3 19:45:54 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Weekend Scavenging In-Reply-To: <199704031704.JAA28068@mars.ark.com>; from "Ron Mitchell" at Apr 3, 97 9:04 am Message-ID: <199704031845.4183@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I have 2 HP150's. If your HP100 is a forerunner, it could be constructed The 100 family included a lot of very different machines. From memory, the 110 was the 'portable plus' and was a laptop using an 8088 (?). The 125 was a CP/M machine, while the 150 was the touchscreen PC and ran MS-DOS. I have the Technical Manual for the HP150 (both versions) if anyone wants me to look anything up. It's quite a fine machine in many ways, but as it wasn't PC compatable (it ran MS-DOS, but didn't have PC compatable video, for example), it flopped. > -Ron Mitchell -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Apr 3 19:43:38 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: <199704031704.JAA28071@mars.ark.com>; from "Ron Mitchell" at Apr 3, 97 9:04 am Message-ID: <199704031843.4105@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> [...] > yet to experience this problem with any of them. Unfortunately in our case 1 > of the chips, the MIOC or Memory Input/Output Controller is a rarity and > apparently cannot be duplicated. Most of us have been stockpiling old ADAMs Custom chips like these are a right pain to collectors/preservationists - when (not if) they fail, you essentially have to find another machine to raid for parts, and hope that one keeps going for a significant period (it may well fail a week later if you are unlucky). I decided to seriously collect only those machinews that were built with standard parts. That means I don't really bother with home computers after about 1980 (by that point, sales were high enough to make it worthwhile for the manufacturers to use gate arrays, etc). I generally prefer PDP11's, PDP8's, PERQs, etc which are built from standard parts. I do have a lot of machines that use custom chips, but I don't depend on them, and won't spend a lot of time hacking them, modifying them, etc. If I did, all that work could be useless when the chip fails. > -Ron Mitchell -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu Apr 3 15:34:33 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: The list Message-ID: I've been scraping this together for a few months. I though some of you might have use for it. Bill Whitson ClassicCmp "owner" bcw@u.washington.edu bill@booster.u.washington.edu --- Computers Through 1988 Part 1/3 (Manufacturers A-D) This list is compiled from various sources: fliers, magazines, ads, manuals, and price books. The information is as acurate as the original sources. The dates are probably particularly unreliable as many of them are just guesses. I have excluded most PC clones from this list. A few of the more important, or interesting PC's are listed. If you have anything to add or revise, contact Bill Whitson (e-mail bill@booster.u.washington.edu). MANUFACTURER MODEL CA ------------------------------------------------------------------- Acorn Model B 82 Automated Computer Systems 4040 MC 78 8080 MC 79 Z80 MCS 81 ACE Discovery 500 83 Discovery 1600 83 Actrix Computers Actrix 83 Adra Systems Model 1000 86 Model 3000 86 Advanced Digital Corp. SuperStar 84 Alcyon Alcyon 84 Alpha Info Systems Model 100 77 Alpha MicroSystems Model 680 84 Model 1000 82 ALSPA Computer ACI-1 81 ACI-2 82 Altos Computer Systems Model 580 83 Model 680 85 Model 3068 88 Model 8000 78 Advanced Micro Devices Model 96 80 Ampere, Inc. WS1A 85 WS1B 85 APF Electronics IM1 80 Apollo Computer Model 400 82 Apple Computer, Inc. II 78 II+ 81 IIe 82 IIc 85 IIc+ 86 IIgs 86 III 83 III+ 84 Lisa 1 83 Lisa 2 84 Macintosh 128 84 Macintosh XL 84 Applied Electronics Model 10 81 Model 15 81 AT&T 3B2/300 86 3B2/400 86 Atari 400 80 600 82 800 83 800XL 84 1200XL 83 130XE 84 520ST 85 1040ST 85 Mega 2 87 Mega 4 87 Auragen Systems System 4000 84 Barreto Associates MicroMaster 83 Barrington International Elite 82 Barrister Info Systems Law Office Manager 75 Basis Model 108 80 BBN Computer Corp. C60 80 C70 81 Beehive Corp. The Topper 83 Bell Computer Systems Model 4 84 Bell and Howell Model 78400 83 Model 3016 83 Berkel Systems Model 4410 74 Billings Computer Corp. System 500 82 System 6000 82 BC12 79 BlackHawk Computers BlackHawk 3 79 BlackHawk 4 79 BMC, Inc. Model 20C 81 Model 20G 81 Bondwell Computers BW2 85 BW8 86 BW12 85 BW14 85 BW16 85 BOS Systems BOS-M 81 Cyte 86 82 BTI Computer Systems BTI 4800 84 BTI 5000 83 BTI 6000 84 BTI 8000 85 Burroughs Corp. B1800 83 B1910 83 OW400 82 CADO Systems CAT III 82 System 20 78 CCG Ultra PDP 11/23 83 Ultra PDP 11/44 83 Ultra PDP 11/73 83 Ultra 11/730 83 California Computer Systems Model 1000 82 Model 3000 83 System 200 81 System 300 81 System 400 81 Callan Data Systems CD 100 81 CD 100M 82 UniStar 100 84 UniStar 200 84 UniStar 300 84 Canaan Computer Corp. 5410 85 5412 84 Canon, Inc. TX-10/15 80 Casio, Inc. FX-9000 83 Computer Consoles, Inc. Power 5 84 Control Data Corp. Cyber 18 76 Model 110 83 Computer Enhancement Corp. CE Micro 1 83 Centurion Computer Corp. Model 100 79 Model 200 79 Model 5200 82 Model 5300 82 Model 6100 83 Model 6200 83 Model 7100 84 Model 9200 84 Micro Plus 82 Century Computer Corp. System 300 75 System 400 75 System 700 75 System 900 75 Vanguard 8000 82 Vanguard 8500 82 X1000 75 X2000 75 Challenge Systems, Inc. CS1000 82 Charles River Data Systems Universe 32/115T 85 Universe 32/137T 85 Universe 32/35 85 Universe 65/115T 85 Universe 68/05 82 Universe 68/137T 84 Universe 68/35 84 Universe 2402 85 Charter Information Corp. System 4 83 CIE Systems, Inc. 680/20 83 680/30 83 680/40 83 680/50 87 680/100 84 680/150 87 680/200 84 CMC Systems SuperSystem 1 81 SuperSystem 2 82 Codex Corporation Model 268/21 83 Model 268/24 82 Model 268/44 82 Colby Computer MacColby 128 84 MacColby 512 84 Coleco Industries, Inc. ADAM 83 Colonial Data Services SB80 81 Columbia Data Products Commander 500 79 Commander 964 79 Commander FX 79 Comark Corp. Disktor M1 83 Disktor M3 83 Disktor Q 79 Commodore 655 83 128 86 Amiga 500 87 Amiga 1000 86 Amiga 2000 87 8032 79 16 84 64 82 Executive 64 83 PET 79 SuperPET 81 VIC-20 81 Plus 4 84 Compal Computer Systems 8200+ 81 Electric Briefcase 82 EZ Type 83 CompTech EVE II 85 CompuCorp Model 745 83 Model 799 83 Compupro Systems System 816/10 84 System 816/A 82 System 816/E 84 System 816/G 84 System 816/Z 84 The Computerist Focus FLEX 82 Covergent Technologies MiniFrame 86 MiniFrame Plus 86 MightyFrame 86 Cortex Systems Microdent 1 79 Microdent 2 79 Cromemco, Inc. C10 82 CS-1 82 CS100 85 CS110 86 CS115 87 CS120 86 CS200 86 CS220 86 CS300 86 CS400 86 CS420 86 CS-2 82 CS-3 83 System 100 84 System 300 84 System 0 82 CYB Systems MultiBox I 82 MultiBox II 82 Cyberchron CDS-201 79 CDS-231 83 Data General Corp CEO 81 CB/50 83 CS/5 82 CS/10 80 CS/20 83 CS/30 83 CS/40 83 CS/50 80 CS/60 83 CS/70 80 CS/100 82 CS/200 82 Eclipse C/150 79 Eclipse C/350 78 Eclipse MV/4000 82 Eclipse S/120 83 Eclipse S/130 83 Eclipse S/140 80 Eclipse S/250 83 Eclipse S/280 83 Enterprise 1000 81 Enterprise 3000 81 MPT/80 83 MPT/100 83 Nova 3 83 Nova 4 83 Datamac Computer Systems Series 1200 81 Datapoint Corp. Model 1560 82 Model 8600 81 Model 8800 81 Series 1800 83 Series 4000 83 Series 6600 78 Datavue Corp. 80/100 81 80/200 81 80/300 81 80/400 83 3000 79 DEC Correspondent 83 Datasystem 150 83 Datasystem 208 78 Datasystem 300 83 Datasystem 315 83 Datasystem 320 83 Datasystem 336 83 Datasystem 356 83 Datasystem 512 83 Datasystem 500 83 DECMate II 82 Micro/PDP-11 82 MicroVAX I 84 PDP-11/23 82 PDP-11/24 81 PDP-11/34 76 PDP-11/44 80 PDP-11/70 75 Professional 300 82 Professional 325 83 Professional 350 83 Rainbow 100 82 Rainbow 100+ 83 VAX-11/730 82 VAX-11/750 80 Deltadata Systems Corp. D8000 83 Micro Manager 83 Delta Products Inc. Delta One 83 Delta Two 83 Delta Four 83 DP/Net 83 DP/125 83 Digicomp Research System 100 81 Digidyne 5832 77 5864 80 Series 200 82 Digital Microsystems DMS-3 83 DMS-4 80 DMS-15 83 DMS-86 82 DMS-1280 83 DMS-5080 82 Digital Technology Model 580 79 Digitex Model 7100 83 Model 7200 83 Model 7300 83 Model 7500 83 Model 8100 83 Model 8200 83 Model 8300 83 Model 8500 83 Dimension Computer Corp. 1010 82 1020 82 2010 82 3020 83 Direct, Inc. Model 1000 81 Model 1025 81 Model 1031 83 Display Data Corp. Insight 74 DMC Systems Commfile 78 Docutel BCS 2025 80 BCS 2030 79 DC-M18 84 M10 84 M20 83 P6060 77 S6000 81 DTC 710 83 A22 83 B23 82 Micro 210 81 Data Technology Industries Associate 79 Dual Systems Control Corp. 83/20 84 83/80 84 83/500 84 Durango Systems Inc. 800 79 800XR 83 900 83 910 83 Dynabyte Business Computers 6600 82 6900 82 Monarch 6000 82 ---end- From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Apr 3 17:43:37 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Classic computers & home video game systems for sale/trade/wanted Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20467B9C7@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> > For Sale/Trade: > > - Kaypro II CP/M portable > - TRS-80 Model 4 > - Commodore VIC-20 in original box, power supply, some docs > - Commodore 64 in original box, power supply, manuals (plus various > accessories available) > - Commodore 128 in original box, power supply > - Atari 1200XL computer (no power supply, untested) > - Colecovision, 2 controllers, power supply, a few games > - Atari 5200, base system unit only > > Computers Wanted: > > - S-100 bus systems (specifically Altair, Imsai, North Star, Processor > Tech, Cromemco) > - TI 99/4A in original box only > - IBM 5100 portable > - Exidy Sorcerer > - Compucolor II or 8051 > - Atari 400 or 800 (not XL) > - RCA COSMAC VIP - KIM-1 > Software/Accessories Wanted: > > - Microsoft Adventure for Apple II or TRS-80 > - CP/M & any manuals/diagrams for Altair, Imsai, North Star, Processor > Tech, Cromemco, Kaypro, Osborne > - Atari 5200 controllers > - Lear Siegler ADM-3a dumb terminal > - S-100 bus cards > > Game Systems Wanted: > - Tandy VIS > - Bally Professional Arcade > - Fairchild Channel F > - Magnavox Odyssey (not Odyssey2) > - Sears Telegames Pong (not Super Pong, not Atari-branded) > - Intellivision, Sega Master System or any Atari model in original > boxes only (I already have them loose) > From foxnhare at goldrush.com Thu Apr 3 22:30:27 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Stuff I found & WWW update Message-ID: <334483E2.1339@goldrush.com> Well in a last minute romp over to Oakdale (CA) I found a few goodies to add to my collection. A thrift store (located on F Street, FYI) had a good selection that day AND a 1/2 price sale! What I picked up: An Atari 800; always liked this machine, good resolution, fun games and FOUR joystick ports. I popped open the cartridge cover before purchasing to discover the BASIC cart ws in it. After getting it home I found it was loaded with 48k of RAM, now all I have to do is start looking for a power supply and other peripherals to go with it (if it works). Can't wait till I find star raiders and all those other cool games I saw at store displays years back. This is a divergence from my mainly Commodore collection but prices are pretty tempting nowadays... (at least there is something good about the intel/microsoft hype). Vectrex Game system, looks kinda grimey and no joystick, but does power up with the space mines game, already found a few resources on the 'net but not the pinouts for the joystick yet. A Commodore Greenline Calculator WITH the power supply. A nice compliment to the two Minutemans (a model 6 and 6X) and the rechargable one (which I have to still figure out if the rechargable batteries are still good.) What I left behind: A Commodore Plus/4 (computer, power supply and books located at various locations around the store.) I have a couple already, that should be enough. A Beige TI 99/4a (in box w/power supply, $20.) They also had an extra TI 99/4a keyboard assembly for about $5... Tandy 2000 (keyboard priced separately from CPU), then the usual monochrome monitors, Atari joysticks, etc... Also... I just uploaded some new stuff to my web page! So step rrrrright up and see the amazing Commodore Collection of Larry Anderson, a rare glimpse at a Commodore P-500 Computer, A few notes on the Commodore PET, and what happened at the last Silicon Realms BBS Gaming/Gathering! just go to: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Larry Anderson From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri Apr 4 10:18:47 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Stuff I found & WWW update In-Reply-To: <334483E2.1339@goldrush.com>; from "Larry Anderson & Diane Hare" at Apr 03, 97 8:30 pm Message-ID: <199704040918.26990@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Vectrex Game system, looks kinda grimey and no joystick, but does > power up with the space mines game, already found a few resources on the > 'net but not the pinouts for the joystick yet. The _service_ manual is available from ftp.csus.edu in /pub/vectrex, I think. That contains a full schematic, and hence a pinout of the joystick port. If you can't find it, I'll dig out the pinout. I also have schematics of adapters to use Tandy CoCo and IBM PC joysticks with the Vectrex. If you'd like copies, I'd be happy to provide them. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri Apr 4 10:24:18 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Stuff I found & WWW update In-Reply-To: from "To:classiccmp@u.washington.edu" at Apr 04, 97 10:18 am Message-ID: <199704040924.27067@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > The _service_ manual is available from ftp.csus.edu in /pub/vectrex, I > think. That contains a full schematic, and hence a pinout of the joystick > port. If you can't find it, I'll dig out the pinout. As I've found it, I might as well post it.... Here you are : 1 Switch 0 (Push to make, connected between here and ground) 2 Switch 1 3 Swtich 2 4 Switch 3 5 Pot 0 (X direction, -5V to +5V analogue input) 6 Pot 1 (Y direction, -5V to +5V analogue input) 7 +5V 8 Ground 9 -5V The vectrex connector is a 9 pin D, but it's down a rather deep hole. A normal socket won't fit, alas. I've found the best thing to do is to buy the extension lead for a Sega control pad, cut the _plug_ off the cable, and use the socket (which fits after a bit of cutting) and cable to connect to the Vectrex. Make sure you buy a cable that connects to all 9 pins - all the ones I've found do. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Apr 4 11:57:26 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Vectrex (was RE: Stuff I found & WWW update) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20469B60C@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> You can get Vectrex controllers from http://www.atari2600.com He generally has a range available, from $50 used (which is probably more than you paid for the system, but you should see the prices a complete system goes for) to $70 new in a box. BTW, you should pick up the Multicart, which has every Vectrex game ever produced in one cartridge with an on-screen menu select. See http://www.xnet.com/~skelly/multis.htm. This is the page for the guy who manufactures the multicarts, but you can also buy them from atari2600.com. You can get reproduction color overlays from http://home.earthlink.net/~mfmurdock/Vectrex/vectrex.htm. The web pointer list for Vectrex is at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/cvg/nexus/Home/Vectrex/. There is actually one person creating brand new games for the Vectrex! Kai > ---------- > From: A.R. Duell[SMTP:ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk] > Sent: Friday, April 04, 1997 2:18 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Stuff I found & WWW update > > > Vectrex Game system, looks kinda grimey and no joystick, but does > > power up with the space mines game, already found a few resources on > the > > 'net but not the pinouts for the joystick yet. > > The _service_ manual is available from ftp.csus.edu in /pub/vectrex, I > think. That contains a full schematic, and hence a pinout of the > joystick > port. If you can't find it, I'll dig out the pinout. > > I also have schematics of adapters to use Tandy CoCo and IBM PC > joysticks > with the Vectrex. If you'd like copies, I'd be happy to provide them. > > > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill > From foxnhare at goldrush.com Fri Apr 4 17:19:18 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Cassette Tapes Aging Message-ID: <33458C77.5413@goldrush.com> >>How long do cassette tapes last? >> >I'm still getting data reliably off of Coleco Datapacks that I recorded >circa 1986. But I've heard there are limitations. Don't use the tapes much >any more. One person talking about this a while back claimed it was better >to store casettes vertically rather than horizontally. Never paid much heed >to that, so I don't know if it's true or not. I have just pulled out a cassette from storage that I used in high school starting late 1980 or early 1981. Besides the tape end breaking when rewinding (getting a bit brittle I guess), I was able to recover the files I wanted without a problem. (this was a tape used on a Commodore PET, not particularly the fastest tape drive on earth). I don't know anything about vertical, it's been in cassete cases and cassette binders. Larry Anderson From dzander at solaria.sol.net Fri Apr 4 18:18:56 1997 From: dzander at solaria.sol.net (Douglas Zander) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Cassette Tapes Aging In-Reply-To: <33458C77.5413@goldrush.com> from "Larry Anderson & Diane Hare" at Apr 4, 97 03:19:18 pm Message-ID: <199704050018.SAA24377@solaria.sol.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 915 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970404/2bed3747/attachment.ksh From jeffh at eleventh.com Wed Apr 2 14:55:14 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Weekend Scavenging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just got back from checking out the 3 thrift stores that are just a few blocks from my house, and made quite a nice haul today, and I've yet to check the big flea market for the weekend! I picked up the following: 1) 1 TI-99/4A cassette tape: 'Tunnels of Doom', #PHT 6073, circa 1982 2) 3 Commodre 64 cassette taes: 'Software Starter Kit', tape #3, circa 1983; 'Start Programming with Gortek and the Microchips', 2 tapes, circa 1982. 3) 5 Timex-Sinclair 1000 tapes: 'The List Manager', 'The Budgeter', 'The Checkbook Manager', 'The Gambler', 'Grimms Fairy Tales'. All are circa 1982 and require the 16k RAM expansion. Also, they are all still in thier original Black/Red cassette cases. I also picked up some misc. manuals as well. I've not had the chance to try any of the cassettes out, but they all turn freely. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Wed Apr 2 15:11:33 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Cassette Tapes Aging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A few days ago, I posted a note asking for peoples thoughts about starting an archive for sound file images of cassette tapes. The couple of people I've heard from were fairly possitive about it, so I've decided to take the initiative and begin one. I have a two gig hard disk connected to my Amiga 3000, and am willing to use most of it to hold such an archive. Now I'd like to ask for subscribers to this list to email me images of data tapes that they may have for ANY classic computer platform. I would like to ask you do the following when doing so though: 1) Save the image as a .WAV file 2) Try to verify that the image will restore to a usuable tape, and load and run on the computer 3) include a short text file with a description and any comments such as required hardware or key commands 4) archive the files with either PKZIP or LHA 5) don't email me more than 2 images at a time. I am open to any comments or suggestions concerning this, including suggestions on what would be a good name for the archive. I also have a 2.5gig 8mm tape drive connected to my Amiga, so it would be fairly easy to back the archive up on occassion. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From MPritchard at ensemble.net Fri Apr 4 19:11:57 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Compucolor Message-ID: <199704050109.RAA06313@mx4.u.washington.edu> Hey guys, is there any information on a machine called "Compucolor" from the late 70's around? I did a search on a couple engines and came up with nothing. I'm asking because about 3 years ago, I let a working machine slip through my hands (I had actually programmed on that same machine back in '79) Next month, when I go back home, I'm going to launch an effort to find it (if it hasn't been thrown away). Thanks, Matt Pritchard graphics_grunt@ensemble_studios From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 4 19:30:50 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Weekend Scavenging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3347aa29.17419793@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Thu, 03 Apr 1997 01:55:14 +0500, you wrote: > I just got back from checking out the 3 thrift stores that are just a few >blocks from my house, and made quite a nice haul today, and I've yet to check >the big flea market for the weekend! I picked up the following: > >1) 1 TI-99/4A cassette tape: 'Tunnels of Doom', #PHT 6073, circa 1982 > FYI: the Tunnels of Doom tape requires the Tunnels of Doom module, PHM 3042. (PHM3042T included cassettes, PHM3042D included disks) My catalog lists 2 of either with the module. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan any day now! From dastar at crl.com Fri Apr 4 19:30:39 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Cassette Tapes Aging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, hellige wrote: > I am open to any comments or suggestions concerning this, including > suggestions on what would be a good name for the archive. I also have a How about the Classette Archive (Classic Cassette)? Maybe it's too cute. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Apr 4 19:57:31 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Compucolor Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2046BDEBE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> The models are Compucolor II and 8051. I recall they had vector color monitors, which are not easily replaced, which accounts for their scarcity. Note that they're on my want list. If you find one, please let me know. Kai > ---------- > From: Matt Pritchard[SMTP:MPritchard@ensemble.net] > Sent: Friday, April 04, 1997 5:11 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Compucolor > > > Hey guys, is there any information on a machine called "Compucolor" > from > the late 70's around? > > I did a search on a couple engines and came up with nothing. I'm > asking because about 3 years ago, I let a working machine slip through > my hands (I had actually programmed on that same machine back in '79) > Next month, when I go back home, I'm going to launch an effort to find > it (if it hasn't been thrown away). > > Thanks, > > Matt Pritchard > graphics_grunt@ensemble_studios > From MPritchard at ensemble.net Fri Apr 4 20:58:44 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Compucolor Message-ID: <199704050256.SAA13229@mx4.u.washington.edu> Well, this particular unit had a color raster monitor and a 5 inch floppy drive vertically mounted in the monitor portion. Any idea which model it was. I think there were also 3 different keyboards as options for it. Matt Pritchard graphics_grunt@ensemble_studios ---------- From: Kai Kaltenbach [SMTP:kaikal@MICROSOFT.com] Sent: Friday, April 04, 1997 7:58 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: RE: Compucolor The models are Compucolor II and 8051. I recall they had vector color monitors, which are not easily replaced, which accounts for their scarcity. Note that they're on my want list. If you find one, please let me know. Kai > ---------- > From: Matt Pritchard[SMTP:MPritchard@ensemble.net] > Sent: Friday, April 04, 1997 5:11 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Compucolor > > > Hey guys, is there any information on a machine called "Compucolor" > from > the late 70's around? > > I did a search on a couple engines and came up with nothing. I'm > asking because about 3 years ago, I let a working machine slip through > my hands (I had actually programmed on that same machine back in '79) > Next month, when I go back home, I'm going to launch an effort to find > it (if it hasn't been thrown away). > > Thanks, > > Matt Pritchard > graphics_grunt@ensemble_studios > From MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 2 11:28:55 1997 From: MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk (Martin Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In article , Paul E Coad writes >Store disk images on CDROM. (How long do these last? I've heard 50 >years, can anyone confirm this?) If you mean CD-Recordable, the green dye ones are 75 years, the gold dye ones are 100 years claim the manufacturers. Remember, this is by accelerated testing, so factors can probably change to alter these figures. However, the onrecorded shelf-life of the blanks is only 10 years. Data available from the CD-R FAQ at http://www.cd-info.com/CDIC/Technology/CD-R/FAQ.html -- Martin Evans at Whitfield Street Studio, London From MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 2 11:20:12 1997 From: MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk (Martin Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: <199704011752.AA23897@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: In article <199704011752.AA23897@interlock.ans.net>, William Donzelli writes >Tantalum capacitors are pretty bulletproof, and do not need this treatment. > No - we're using computer-assisted equipment from the 60's (74 type logic) where the tanatalum's are going short-circuit or leaky, so allow for a 20-30 year lifetime. -- Martin Evans at Whitfield Street Studio, London From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 5 09:36:11 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Cassette Tapes Aging In-Reply-To: <199704050018.SAA24377@solaria.sol.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Douglas Zander wrote: > I've heard that cassette tapes should be stored vertically because if the > edge of the tape is resting against the case then it could buckle and get > bent out of shape. I've never heard anything like that, but I do know that tapes suffer from a much more common ailment: the oxide deteriorates with an audible change in frequency response. Normal audio tapes turn all bassy (lose high frequencies). That said, most of the tapes I have for Commodores and Acorns load without any trouble even today. Some of the ones I used on the Oric are completely gone, though. Those are from 1984. Some were good quality tapes, as well. But they're still unreadble by the machine. Most of the commercial software tapes are fine, though. I guess it has something to do with my tape recorder and the fact that Orics wrote tapes at 2400 baud instead of the more usual 300, 1200 or 1500 baud. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From william at ans.net Sat Apr 5 18:05:47 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Timonium/The goods are out there... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704060005.AA06532@interlock.ans.net> I attended the Timonium hamfest/computer fest today near Baltimore, and I must admit to classics are still out there... I saw many of the old standbys (Atari, Amiga, etc.), but the real treat for me was the higher end stuff. Sun-3s are starting to come out in adundance (I purchased an empty box for RCS/RI), even some older SPARCs and an SGI, and plenty of other older workstations. Also evident was a bit of old DEC stuff. I went away with quite a bit of a PDP-11/20, and a small VAX 11/730 system. I had to leave two PDP-11/44s and a custom DEC thingie (PDP-16?), plus a Lisa 2, because my car was stuffed. Was is my point (other than boasting about my latest find)? If you do not go to the fests, GO!!!!! Most likely those PDP-11/44s are furnace fodder, unless another collector gets them. The only way these systems will be saved is if we collectors save them. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dynasoar at mindspring.com Sat Apr 5 22:09:24 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Timoniom/The Goods... Message-ID: <334721F4.76E7@mindspring.com> William's description of the goodies at the Hamfest made me envious... Is there a listing somewhere of these meets? I sure would love to go to a few. Also: anyone out there with any parts resources/docs/specs for an Amstrad PC6400DD? Got one in very good shape at a local yard sale, but am unsure just exactly how to go about fixing it up. From looking at it, seems to resemble a PCJR clone. Any help or information would be appreciated. Thanks, Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From chris at thanatos.yawc.net Sat Apr 5 06:39:27 1997 From: chris at thanatos.yawc.net (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Timoniom/The Goods... In-Reply-To: <334721F4.76E7@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <199704061138.MAA05426@thanatos.yawc.net> > William's description of the goodies at the Hamfest made me envious... > > Is there a listing somewhere of these meets? I sure would love to > go to a few. > > Also: anyone out there with any parts resources/docs/specs for an > Amstrad PC6400DD? Got one in very good shape at a local yard sale, but > am unsure just exactly how to go about fixing it up. From looking at it, > seems to resemble a PCJR clone. Any help or information would be > appreciated. Never heard of that model number, might be the US version of the PC1640DD which was an 8086 AFAIK, with 640K and dual 5.25" floppy disk drives. Expansion was through standard 8bit XT slots, if you're lucky someone might have stuck a hard card in it. The other popular upgrade was swapping the CPU for a NEC V20. The PSU was combined into the CGA monitor so unless it has the monitor with it you'll have to chuck together a small PSU for it. The keyboard connector was non-standard and ISTR there were keyboards at the time which had AT/XT/Amstrad switches so the keyboard wiring maybe non-standard too. The other alternative is that it's the PPC640DD which was a portable 8086 with a fullsized keyboard and a non-backlit CGA LCD screen occupying about half the length on the right hand side (or was it LHS =\ ). The machine had dual 3.5" floppies and a built in 2400baud modem, ISTR there was one 8bit expansion slot. There was at least one upgrade company in the UK that would supply backlights and HDs for these machines but that was about 4 or 5 years ago. - /-------------------------------------------------------------------\ | The Lost One, Thanatos admin and all round good egg | You can't | | Contact Thanatos BBS on *http://thanatos.yawc.net, | fool me. | | *ftp://thanatos.yawc.net or | There ain't | | *telnet://thanatos.yawc.net | no Sanity | | | Clause! | \-------------------------------------------------------------------/ From ronaldm at mars.ark.com Sun Apr 6 07:59:13 1997 From: ronaldm at mars.ark.com (Ron Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: How long will they last? Message-ID: <199704061259.FAA01758@mars.ark.com> >I decided to seriously collect only those machinews that were built with >standard parts. Not a bad idea. It's been my experience that those who attempted to build the 'perfect widget' ended up shooting themselves in the foot more likely than not, all in the name of securing some perceived competitive advantage. In Coleco's case, the results were disastrous. -Ron Mitchell From groberts at mitre.org Sun Apr 6 11:40:53 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Timonium/The goods are out there... In-Reply-To: <199704060005.AA06532@interlock.ans.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970406124053.007f3640@postman> At 07:05 PM 4/5/97 -0500, William Donzelli wrote: >I attended the Timonium hamfest/computer fest today near Baltimore, and I >must admit to classics are still out there... i agree it was pretty wild. but you really do have to scrounge to find the pre-PC era stuff (translation: there were TONS of 286/386s, PS/2s, etc.) On the other hand if you wanted to put together the pieces of an "original" PC or PC/XT it would be a cinch (PC video and other cards going for as little as 10 cents; hard disks for 50 cents! cabinets for a buck or two). on the pre-PC front there was still a fair amount of commodore stuff (e.g. i picked up a $3 C/16 plus a box of Vic 20 stuff) but you have to shop for price. i didn't see any "cool" microcomputer stuff like any S/100, Heathkit or other early era systems or SBC's like the KIM, but if you go to enough of these something's bound to turn up. there were handouts there for upcoming ham/computer fests, e.g. Luzerne Co, (PA) on 7/6, Frederick Co. (MD) on father's day (6/15), and Manassas (VA) on 6/1. There doesn't appear to be a web site for any of these hamfests. then again there's always the upcoming Trenton Computer Festival on 4/26 and 4/27: http://www.tcf.net/index1.html - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Sun Apr 6 13:08:36 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: (fwd) Computer Shows Message-ID: <334ae65a.9512186@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Someone wondered about Hamfests, etc.: On Sat, 05 Apr 97 05:15:48 GMT, in misc.forsale.computers.other.systems valuecf@tiac.net (Value Computer Fairs, Inc.) wrote: > > >Value Computer Fairs, Inc. > >Visit us on the web: www.vcfonline.com > > >Upcoming Shows (NY) > >April 6th- Hofstra University > Hempstead, Long Island > > Show Hours: 9:30am - 3:00pm > Admission: $5 ($4 w/ copy of this post) > > >April 20th- Golden Gate Inn > Brooklyn, N.Y. > > Show Hours: 9:30am - 3:00pm > Admission: $5 ($4 w/ copy of this post) > >April 26th- Holiday Inn > Carle Place, Long Island > >April 27th- Holiday Inn > Ronkonkoma, Long Island > > > >Want a show in your area, e-mail us with your suggestion!!!!! > >For more info, visit our web site or call us at (800)997-Show. > >and remember WHY PAY RETAIL? _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan any day now! From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sun Apr 6 14:31:03 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: FS: Misc Computers on AuctionWeb Message-ID: <3347F9F7.2396@oboe.calpoly.edu> I just listed a few different systems on auctionweb. This is a great place to look for stuff. Included is an Apple III, hard to find. I also have some old video game systems listed. Check them out at the links below: Channel F Game Console Bidding starts at: $2.00 Auction ends on: 04/12/97, 19:12:53 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=wwm1252 Lot of 4 Channel F Game Cartridges Current bid: $2.00 Auction ends on: 04/12/97, 19:23:06 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=omg7762 Commodore Plus 4 Computer Bidding starts at: $2.00 Auction ends on: 04/12/97, 19:30:29 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=myy11036 Lot - Texas Instr. TI-99/4A Computers & More! Bidding starts at: $2.00 Auction ends on: 04/12/97, 19:58:46 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=ggv55391 RS TRS-80 Color Computer 2, Carts, Joy, More! Bidding starts at: $2.00 Auction ends on: 04/12/97, 20:48:46 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=tdu0192 Atari 7800 ProSystem w/Game Cartridges! Current bid: $10.50 Auction ends on: 04/12/97, 21:31:20 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=fcf174 Apple III Computer System! (photo) Bidding starts at: $20.00 Auction ends on: 04/12/97, 22:55:24 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=ely44807 From MPritchard at ensemble.net Sun Apr 6 16:21:49 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: How long will they last? Message-ID: <199704062119.OAA20529@mx3.u.washington.edu> >>I decided to seriously collect only those machinews that were built with >>standard parts. >Not a bad idea. It's been my experience that those who attempted to build >the 'perfect widget' ended up shooting themselves in the foot more likely >than not, all in the name of securing some perceived competitive advantage. >In Coleco's case, the results were disastrous. > -Ron Mitchell Wasn't the Colecovision built entirely out of "standard" parts, unlike the other systems of the day? Matt Pritchard graphics_grunt@ensemble_studios From george.lin at documentum.com Sun Apr 6 19:25:07 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Digital Microsystems DMS-3F, DEC Rainbow, TS 1000 Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970406172507.015fdb00@lion.documentum.com> Hello, Does anyone know something about Digital Microsystems DMS-3F? I saw one today. It has a built-in monitor, 2 5.25" floppy disk drives, centronics printer interface, and 4 serial ports (?) for connecting terminals I presume. If it is worth collecting then I will haul it home. I also saw a DEC Rainbow. However, it is priced at $89.95--way more than I am used to pay. Does a DEC Rainbow worth this much? I picked up a mint condition Timex Sinclair 1000 though. I have been wanting to collect it for some time. Does anyone know the polarity of its 9V DC input? I don't want to risk damaging it by reversing the polarity. Thanks in advance for any information. George -- George Lin "Accelerating your business through Network Architect, MIS enterprise document managment." Documentum, Inc. (Nasdaq: DCTM) http://www.documentum.com Inet Fax: mailto:remote-printer.George_Lin@4.3.8.6.3.6.4.0.1.5.1.tpc.int My PGP Public Key for encryption is at http://george.home.ml.org/pgp.htm From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 6 18:32:27 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: It's true! (Also, Acetronic/Radofin Video Games) Message-ID: Ok, I admit it. You really *can* find more stuff these few weeks. I went to car boot sale today and got three machines (five, were I willing to shell out for two C64Cs with a floppy drive and a PSU between them). I'm not the proud owner of a Spectrum 48k (at last!) in mint condition and a Spectrum +2A in even better shape. I actually got the +2A at half the price of the 48k -- 5 pounds for the +2A (around $7? Not sure) as opposed to 10 pounds for the 48k. There was another +2A for sale at the outrageous price of 15 pounds (at least I *hope* I heard 15 -- at that noise level, it could have been -gasp- 50). Anyway, enough about the Spectra (sic). :-) There's another find I might need a little help with. It's not strictly a computer, it's a video game (Video Entertainment System, as it says on the front panel). Specifically, an Acetronic MPU-1000. The PCB has a Radofin label on it. There are two analog joysticks with two red fire buttons and a 12 button keypad each. They're connected to the unit with spiral cable (no plugs). The controllers are designed to take overlays to give meaning to the 12 unmarked keys. I don't have any overlays, but there are four carts: Invaders, cart #1 (Olympics -- actually a more or less standard set of Pong-like games), cart #11 (Super Maze -- remember A-Maze-ing on the TI? It's very similar. Analogue control of the players is quite tricky), and cart #13 (Circus -- I haven't figured this one out yet due to the erratic behaviour of one of the controllers [read: vertical axis doesn't work properly, fire button won't]). The cartridges claim to be "suitable for Acetronic, Radofin 1292 & Prinztronic microprocessor systems". Does anyone have any ideas about this? Is it common or uncommon? The name Radofin was familiar, after a bit of research it turns out it's the company that bought the rights to the Aquarius. Any technical information would be welcome, since I can't identify either of the LSI ICs on the PCB (yes, two of them). Oh, by the way, in the highly unlikely case this is amazingly rare and the only one left on the planet (unlikely because at least another person on the WWW has one, albeit an MPU-2000), I obtained this at the silly price of 2 UK pounds. The previous owners seemed a bit amazed at the fact that someone might actually be *INTERESTED* in that piece of junk. Can't complain, really. :-) Thanks, Alexios --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 6 19:01:43 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: It's true! (Also, Acetronic/Radofin Video Games) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: Wasting some more bandwidth to correct myself. :-) > Ok, I admit it. You really *can* find more stuff these few weeks. I went > to car boot sale today and got three machines (five, were I willing to shell ^^^^^^ Proofread carefully to see if you any words out. > I'm not the proud owner of a Spectrum 48k (at last!) in mint condition and *Now*. I'm *now* the proud owner of a Spectrum 48k etc. Duh... What's "IQ" mean? Sorry for the waste of bandwidth! I'm off to LART myself. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 6 19:53:43 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: FS: Misc Computers on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: <3347F9F7.2396@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970406175343.00dbbb68@agora.rdrop.com> At 12:31 PM 4/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >I just listed a few different systems on auctionweb. This is a great >place to look for stuff. Included is an Apple III, hard to find. I also >have some old video game systems listed. Check them out at the links >below: > <<< listing omitted to save space... >>> (hoping that this does not come off sounding too rude... ((I'm going to develop a reputation)) Ahem... If you were really interested in offering these systems to someone who might appreciate them, why not list them HERE with an asking price first and then move to AuctionWeb (or similar) if they did not sell or you could not get your price. This message to me feels like little more than trolling for dollars... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 6 19:06:09 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Digital Microsystems DMS-3F, DEC Rainbow, TS 1000 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970406172507.015fdb00@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: > I also saw a DEC Rainbow. However, it is priced at $89.95--way more than I > am used to pay. Does a DEC Rainbow worth this much? Probably not, in the States. Anyway, mine is in Europe and I got it for free. It's been used for less than 100 hours; it's got all the original software including lots of disks. Tower "case" (actually a box that makes the desktop case look bulkier and more mini-like), colo{,u}r monitor and display card, 300 baud acoustic coupler, printer. The owner really was careful with his machine: he even gave me the official DEC screen cleaning liquid! :-) Btw, is it true that you can't format disks on the Rainbow and need DEC preformatted ones instead? --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Sun Apr 6 19:27:25 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: FS: Misc Computers on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970406175343.00dbbb68@agora.rdrop.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19970406175343.00dbbb68@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <334a3efd.32202857@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sun, 06 Apr 1997 17:53:43 -0700, you wrote: >Ahem... If you were really interested in offering these systems to someone >who might appreciate them, why not list them HERE with an asking price >first and then move to AuctionWeb (or similar) if they did not sell or you >could not get your price. > >This message to me feels like little more than trolling for dollars... > I had assumed that for sale ads were forbidden/discouraged here. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan any day now! From lists at phx6.phxmedia.com Mon Apr 7 01:30:41 1997 From: lists at phx6.phxmedia.com (Lists at phxmedia) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: New ATARI 1040ST user needs help... Message-ID: <199704070630.XAA13921@phx6.phxmedia.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 531 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970406/c23d2253/attachment.ksh From george.lin at documentum.com Mon Apr 7 01:46:12 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: New ATARI 1040ST user needs help... In-Reply-To: <199704070630.XAA13921@phx6.phxmedia.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970406234612.00a8cdd0@lion.documentum.com> I suggest you do a search on Yahoo or on another Internet search engine that you prefer. I know there is an active Atari ST community out there. You shouldn't have any problem finding the stuff you need. Personally I know a UC Berkeley professor who still uses his Atari 1040ST to keep track of student grades. George At 11:30 PM 4/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Gang, > >I picked up an Atari 1040ST today for $25 -- as is. No cables, no manuals, >no floppy disks, nothing. I figured I'd be able to build up a little >working system (if the thing still works), but need some help. > >If anyone here knows of any resources for floppy disks, manuals (i.e. how >do I plug this thing in?), etc. please let me know -- I'd like to put this >computer to use in my studio -- it has MIDI In/Out, and there's some cool >software for it and one of my synthesizers that I've been meaning to check out. > >j. > > -- George Lin "Accelerating your business through Network Architect, MIS enterprise document managment." Documentum, Inc. (Nasdaq: DCTM) http://www.documentum.com Inet Fax: mailto:remote-printer.George_Lin@4.3.8.6.3.6.4.0.1.5.1.tpc.int My PGP Public Key for encryption is at http://george.home.ml.org/pgp.htm From dzander at solaria.sol.net Mon Apr 7 01:48:11 1997 From: dzander at solaria.sol.net (Douglas Zander) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: New ATARI 1040ST user needs help... In-Reply-To: <199704070630.XAA13921@phx6.phxmedia.com> from "Lists at phxmedia" at Apr 6, 97 11:30:41 pm Message-ID: <199704070648.BAA08794@solaria.sol.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1550 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970407/5561000e/attachment.ksh From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Mon Apr 7 01:40:39 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: FS: Misc Computers on AuctionWeb Message-ID: <334896E7.1FCB@oboe.calpoly.edu> Hello, Jim Willing wrote: >>I just listed a few different systems on auctionweb. This is a great >>place to look for stuff. Included is an Apple III, hard to find. I also >>have some old video game systems listed. Check them out at the links >>below: <<< listing omitted to save space... >>> Thanks Jim > (hoping that this does not come off sounding too rude... ((I'm going > to develop a reputation)) It doesn't (I don't think). I feel the same way sometimes. > Ahem... If you were really interested in offering these systems to someone > who might appreciate them, why not list them HERE with an asking price first > and then move to AuctionWeb (or similar) if they did not sell or you could > not get your price. Here's my situation: I enjoy searching for these old computers. Sometimes even more than toying with them. I spend a lot of time digging and driving and hauling and testing but I love it. I have saved quite a few from the landfill. If you watch the auction you will see that the items there do not necessarily sell for more than their value. In most cases, I don't even know what to ask and in quite a few I have sold them for less or as much as I paid for them. Not to mention my time and packing, shipping, etc. No, I'm not a charity. But I'm also genuinely interested in the hobby. I make a few bucks and it helps me pay my tuition. I'm a full time engineering student and am putting myself through school. I'm really working cheap. And believe me if I was back in the "real" world with a paycheck coming in every week, I'd probably give these little guys away for a song or trade them to help someone elses collection. > This message to me feels like little more than trolling for dollars... Sorry it appears that way. I really try not to post this stuff too much. Greg From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Mon Apr 7 01:56:29 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: FS: Misc Computers on AuctionWeb Message-ID: <33489A9D.15E@oboe.calpoly.edu> bm_pete@ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) wrote: > > > >Ahem... If you were really interested in offering these systems to = > someone..... > > I had assumed that for sale ads were forbidden/discouraged here. I was under the impression that it was ok as long as it's not excessive. I even mentioned it in my introduction message and have seen it discussed a couple times. I believe this was my first post of this type. I don't want to make any enemies here. Sorry for any inconvenience. Greg From jj at scs.leeds.ac.uk Mon Apr 7 03:22:59 1997 From: jj at scs.leeds.ac.uk (Jim Jackson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Martin Evans wrote: > In article <199704011752.AA23897@interlock.ans.net>, William Donzelli > writes > >Tantalum capacitors are pretty bulletproof, and do not need this treatment. > > > > > No - we're using computer-assisted equipment from the 60's (74 > type logic) where the tanatalum's are going short-circuit or leaky, so > allow for a 20-30 year lifetime. Maybe my memory is a bit vague - but tantalums in the 1960's ?????????? Jim From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun Apr 6 18:32:19 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: New ATARI 1040ST user needs help... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 07-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >I picked up an Atari 1040ST today for $25 -- as is. No cables, no manuals, >no floppy disks, nothing. I figured I'd be able to build up a little >working system (if the thing still works), but need some help. >If anyone here knows of any resources for floppy disks, manuals (i.e. how >do I plug this thing in?), etc. please let me know -- I'd like to put this >computer to use in my studio -- it has MIDI In/Out, and there's some cool >software for it and one of my synthesizers that I've been meaning to check >out. The 1040ST is a nice system, but you'll need to find one of the Atari monitors for it, such as the SM-124 (very nice mono) or the SC-1224 (color). You don't need an OS disks for it, as the OS is built into ROM, and it uses standard PC 720k disks. For software and such, Toad Computers in Severna, MD is a good resource..and they even sell TOS upgrades and refurb monitors. Atari's have been their specialty for years. Hope this helps. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun Apr 6 18:35:17 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: New ATARI 1040ST user needs help... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 07-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > get started. An Atari can read IBM/compatable disks (but not vice-versa) > What this means is that you can download software on your PC at > double-density (720K) and then pop the disk into your 1040ST and run it. Actually, that's not true...it was meant to be write compatible as well, but there is a bug in TOS 1.02 and below that screws up part of the format...there are plenty of utilities to fix this, or you can upgrade the machine to TOS 1.04, 'Rainbow Tos'. Fixes a lot of bugs. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From Bill_Opalka.INTDATA at notes.intdata.com Mon Apr 7 09:12:38 1997 From: Bill_Opalka.INTDATA at notes.intdata.com (Bill Opalka) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: Digital Microsystems DMS-3F, DEC Rainbow, TS 1000 Message-ID: <9704071325.AA0240@notes.intdata.com> >> Btw, is it true that you can't format disks on the Rainbow and need DEC >> preformatted ones instead? Actually, if you have CPM-86, you can format regular 5 1/4 floppies into RX50 floppies. The MSDOS version of the software was hindered so that it couldn't be done. /Bill From william at ans.net Mon Apr 7 11:56:05 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704071656.AA04664@interlock.ans.net> > > No - we're using computer-assisted equipment from the 60's (74 > > type logic) where the tanatalum's are going short-circuit or leaky, so > > allow for a 20-30 year lifetime. It sounds like you just may have a bunch of cruddy capacitors (or a power supply problem that is not killing the chips). I have never found a bad tantalum capacitor. > Maybe my memory is a bit vague - but tantalums in the 1960's ?????????? They were around in the 1960s, but basically for military applications. William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Apr 7 18:06:59 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:04 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: <199704071656.AA04664@interlock.ans.net>; from "William Donzelli" at Apr 7, 97 12:56 (noon) Message-ID: <199704071706.6836@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > > No - we're using computer-assisted equipment from the 60's (74 > > > type logic) where the tanatalum's are going short-circuit or leaky, so > > > allow for a 20-30 year lifetime. > > It sounds like you just may have a bunch of cruddy capacitors (or a power > supply problem that is not killing the chips). I have never found a bad > tantalum capacitor. I had a tantalum bead fail on an IBM CGA card the other week. I wanted to verify a bug occured with the genuine card, so I pulled it out of my spares box, plugged it in and powered up. _One_ tantalum capacitor exploded, giving off a small cloud of smoke and an unpleasant smell, and the remains seemed to be glowing red hot. The rest of the card worked fine, and still does AFAIK. That card was about 15 years old, of course. > William Donzelli -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dzander at solaria.sol.net Mon Apr 7 13:47:32 1997 From: dzander at solaria.sol.net (Douglas Zander) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: New ATARI 1040ST user needs help... In-Reply-To: from "hellige" at Apr 7, 97 04:32:19 am Message-ID: <199704071847.NAA13013@solaria.sol.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 930 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970407/59ee029a/attachment.ksh From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Apr 7 20:25:01 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: FS: Misc Computers on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: <334a3efd.32202857@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > >Ahem... If you were really interested in offering these systems to someone > >who might appreciate them, why not list them HERE with an asking price > >first and then move to AuctionWeb (or similar) if they did not sell or you > >could not get your price. > > > >This message to me feels like little more than trolling for dollars... > > I had assumed that for sale ads were forbidden/discouraged here. This is a FAQ (attached at bottom). As far as I'm concerned - this is OK. If people are selling old computer junk - even on auctionweb - there are probably folks here who are interested. Posting for profit is OK with me if it's on topic and doesn't get out of hand. Anyone is free to contact me via private e-mail if this needs further discussion. Bill Whitson ClassicCmp "owner" bcw@u.washington.edu bill@booster.u.washington.edu --- ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.0 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? 1.3 What's a Classic Computer? 1.4 Who runs this thing? 1.5 Don't you know you're duplicating what others have done? 2.1 What can I talk about? 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? 2.3 Can I talk about Mini/MainFrames? 2.4 Can I post advertisments? 2.5 Can I ask people to give me their computers? 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x? 2.7 Where should I look before posting a dumb question? 3.1 How many subscribers are there? 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a Web Site? 4.2 How come the Web Site is so ugly? 5.1 Where can I find Classic Computers? 5.2 How much is machine x worth? 5.3 Will 1000's of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection (just hoarding), restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them. 1.3 What is a Classic Computer? Any computer that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic. This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to work OK, so I've kept it. 1.4 Who runs this thing? That would be me, Bill Whitson. I'm a network administrator at the University of Washington. This is one of my hobbies and I got tired of waiting for someone else to create a list like this. I can be reached at bcw@u.washington.edu. 1.5 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done. Damn straight. That's what the internet's all about. 2.1 What can I talk about? Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might want to check facts before you start shooting off messages. 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then be aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC newsgroups. 2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames? Yep. Lots of bulky computer folks here. 2.4 Can I post advertisements? Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course, use your brain - don't post repeatedly. 2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers? Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example, would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on usenet who will vouch for this. 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x. Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic electronics tools (DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). 2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question? It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below). 3.1 How many subscribers are there? Around 200, fluxing daily. 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? Don't bother asking me. If you really want to know go ahead and post to the list. I really don't know what having a number will do for you... 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a web site? Yep. http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html 4.2 How come the web site is so ugly? How come a PET is so ugly? Who cares as long as it works? 5.1 Where can I find classic computers? The best places seem to be thrift stores and swap meets. These are closely followed by pawn shops and mom and pop computer stores. The holy grails are electronics scrap yards - but they tend to be wary of individual pick-and-choosers. Oh yeah - garage sales! 5.2 How much is machine x worth? Precisely as much as you'll pay for it. Oh, you're selling it? Then , precisely as much as I'll pay for it. 5.3 Will 1000's of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? Yes. This is the impetus behind every collectors tireless and selfless effort. Each machine we fail to save has it's gold parts mercilessly hacked off and sold (just like rhino horns - and look at the rhinos). The remainder is then sent to China to be made into bicycle spokes. Save a computer! Act now! Remind you wife of the rhino and cuter, furrier animals. It might work. From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 7 21:37:15 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: FS: Misc Computers on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > > > >Ahem... If you were really interested in offering these systems to someone > > >who might appreciate them, why not list them HERE with an asking price > > >first and then move to AuctionWeb (or similar) if they did not sell or you > > >could not get your price. > > > > > >This message to me feels like little more than trolling for dollars... > > > > I had assumed that for sale ads were forbidden/discouraged here. I think as long as it doesn't constitute spam, for sale messages should definitely be allowed. I'd hate for the discussion to simply turn into a for sale listing, but I doubt that would ever happen. I would definitely like to know if anyone out there has some excess of one thing that they'd like to get rid of or trade for something else. After all, what better place to advertise that you have a classic computer for sale or trade than on this list? You're almost guaranteed to find a perfect buyer/seller match. Again, as long as it isn't spammed every day. One message announcing an item for sale/trade should suffice. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From wbrco at valuenet.net Mon Apr 7 22:24:20 1997 From: wbrco at valuenet.net (Allen Underdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: It's true! (Also, Acetronic/Radofin Video Games) References: Message-ID: <3349BA64.1DB@valuenet.net> Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > > On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > > Wasting some more bandwidth to correct myself. :-) > > > Ok, I admit it. You really *can* find more stuff these few weeks. I went > > to car boot sale today and got three machines (five, were I willing to shell > ^^^^^^ > Proofread carefully to see if you any words out. ^^^^^^^ Ahem - as you were saying.. :) don't feel bad, I married an editor, I get corrected all the time! > > > I'm not the proud owner of a Spectrum 48k (at last!) in mint condition and > > *Now*. I'm *now* the proud owner of a Spectrum 48k etc. Duh... What's "IQ" > mean? > > Sorry for the waste of bandwidth! I'm off to LART myself. > > --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- > Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk > The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk -- | Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | | Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | | homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | | Try My BBS at 314.939.9445! | From dcobley at island.net Mon Apr 7 22:33:55 1997 From: dcobley at island.net (David Cobley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Available Message-ID: <199704080333.UAA16258@norm.island.net> Several weeks ago, through a contact made here, I offered my Xerox 16/8 system to a fellow Canadian who lives in Saskatoon, and to whom I had previously shipped a set of manuals for the TRS 80 Model 16. I never heard if they arrived. And I can't get a reply to an e-mail from him so I'm assuming he's incommunicado or uninterested. So - I'm going to follow the suggestion made by our worthy founder and offer it here. I wish to dispose of my Xerox 16/8 system which is just sitting idle packed away in it's original cartons. I'm not interested in selling the system. It's free to whoever wants to pay the shipping charges. Can't beat the price. But it's take the lot or take nothing! It comprises:- Xerox 16/8 Professional Computer system:- 1 Display Unit. 1 Rigid Drive + 5.25" Floppy Disk Expansion Module. 1 Keyboard and Mouse. 2 Shoe boxes full of 5.25" 360k diskettes, some original, some copies, about 200 or so disks altogether. Manuals, All in original covers and in excellent condition. 1 Operating System Reference Guide. 1 Technical Reference Manual 1 CP/M 80 & CP/M 86 Operating Systems Programmer's Information Manual. 1 Operations Manual. 1 MS-DOS Operating System Programmer's Reference Manual. 1 Business Graphics Reference Guide. 1 MS-DOS Operating System Reference Guide including: 1 - User's Guide & 1 - Macro Assembler Manual. 1 CP/M 80 & CP/M 86 Operating Systems Handbook. 1 MS-DOS Operating System Handbook. 1 Business Graphics Handbook. 1 dBase II Manual. When I received the system from my vendor, last summer, I assembled it and it worked beautifully. But I needed the space in my computer room for my heavily upgraded Coleco-Adam which was my first computer. So the Xerox had to be stored away and I'm concerned it may be deteriorating in my unheated loft. So, either the Xerox continues sitting up in the loft, or someone wants it. The problem is I live on Vancouver Island which means that shipping these 4 heavy cartons, 3 for the computer and 1 for the books and disks, could be expensive. Even by bus. That's how they came to me from Vancouver. I weighed each of the four packages that comprise the Xerox and it worked out like this:- Expansion Module (hard and floppy drives) weighs just under 35 lbs. I called it 35# Display unit weighs just under 35 lbs. I called it 35#. Keyboard and Mouse weigh just under 10 lbs. I called it 10# And the books and disks weigh just under 40 lbs. I called it 40#. I also have a Kaypro Technical Manual covering the Kaypro 2, 2/4, 10. 2/84, 2X, 4/84, and ROBIE systems that I don't need. Anyone interested can let me know by e-mail. Cheers. David Cobley. Fidonet on the ADAM, CP/M Tech and Hewlett-Packard Echoes. Internet-dcobley@island.net, or, davidc@macn.bc.ca From danjo at xnet.com Mon Apr 7 23:11:13 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Available In-Reply-To: <199704080333.UAA16258@norm.island.net> Message-ID: Maybe we shouldn't allow posts like this!!!! BAWWWWWWWWWW BAWWWWWWWW BAAWWWBAWWWWBAWWWWWW I could NEVER afford the shipping. I could probably DRIVE there and PICK IT UP but not until summer BAWWWBAWWWWW (The basement is flooding from my tears alone!!!!!) On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, David Cobley wrote: [Snip] > I wish to dispose of my Xerox 16/8 system which is just sitting idle packed > away in it's original cartons. I'm not interested in selling the system. > It's free to whoever wants to pay the shipping charges. Can't beat the > price. But it's take the lot or take nothing! [Snip] > When I received the system from my vendor, last summer, I assembled it and > it worked beautifully. ??????? [Snip] > So, either the Xerox continues sitting up in the loft, or someone wants it. > The problem is I live on Vancouver Island which means that shipping these 4 > heavy cartons, 3 for the computer and 1 for the books and disks, could be > expensive. Even by bus. That's how they came to me from Vancouver. [Snip] > David Cobley. THANKS DAVE YOUR TIMING STINKS! BC (Such is life - I think I will end mine!) From dynasoar at mindspring.com Tue Apr 8 08:05:02 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Available References: <199704080333.UAA16258@norm.island.net> Message-ID: <334A427E.4800@mindspring.com> David: I'd love to have the Xerox. Have you any idea what the freight charge by bus would be to North Carolina USA? If no one has spoken for it yet, let me know, and I will do some research from this end on what it would cost to ship it here. Thanks, Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Tue Apr 8 08:02:45 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: Wanted Systems Message-ID: <199704081302.AA03753@bs014.swec.com> I've seen a certain amount of conversation as to the appropriateness of "For Sale" messages on the list. So long as it doesn't get out of hand, some of the posts can be quite useful (like the one on IMSAI switches, for instance). How about "Wanted Systems" posts? I'm looking to flesh out my collection of 16-bit Data General hardware, and am looking for leads to systems, or systems themselves. Anything in the Nova/Eclipse line is fair game, with the exception of the 32-bit MV series (although I hope somebody is preserving them!). Any documentation is, of course, more than welcome. Thanks! -- ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From dcobley at island.net Tue Apr 8 09:36:41 1997 From: dcobley at island.net (David Cobley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Available Message-ID: <199704081436.HAA23484@norm.island.net> At 11:11 PM 4/7/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Maybe we shouldn't allow posts like >this!!!! BAWWWWWWWWWW BAWWWWWWWW BAAWWWBAWWWWBAWWWWWW > >I could NEVER afford the shipping. I could probably DRIVE there and >PICK IT UP but not until summer BAWWWBAWWWWW Tell you what, if I ever get another one, I'll save it until Summer and you can drive from wherever you are and pick it up. Deal? Cheers, David Cobley. Fidonet on the ADAM, CP/M Tech and Hewlett-Packard Echoes. Internet-dcobley@island.net, or, davidc@macn.bc.ca From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Apr 8 12:12:36 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: Wanted Systems Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20472868D@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I can't believe you have Nova 1200's. I used a 1220 in the late 70's in high school and it was old then. Ours actually had a hard drive which was about 36" on a side, covered with woodgrain vinyl, with a capacity of a MEGABYTE!! I might still have the source to my Nova multiuser Star Trek around someplace. It was so popular it got banned from the system since it slowed everything down too much. Kai > ---------- > From: carl.friend@stoneweb.com[SMTP:carl.friend@stoneweb.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 1997 6:02 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Wanted Systems > > I've seen a certain amount of conversation as to the > appropriateness > of "For Sale" messages on the list. So long as it doesn't get out of > hand, some of the posts can be quite useful (like the one on IMSAI > switches, for instance). How about "Wanted Systems" posts? > > I'm looking to flesh out my collection of 16-bit Data General > hardware, and am looking for leads to systems, or systems themselves. > Anything in the Nova/Eclipse line is fair game, with the exception > of the 32-bit MV series (although I hope somebody is preserving > them!). > Any documentation is, of course, more than welcome. > > Thanks! > > -- > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > | | > | > | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston > | > | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA > | > | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | > | > | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 > | > |________________________________________________|____________________ > _| > From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 8 18:20:47 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > Maybe we shouldn't allow posts like > this!!!! BAWWWWWWWWWW BAWWWWWWWW BAAWWWBAWWWWBAWWWWWW > > I could NEVER afford the shipping. I could probably DRIVE there and > PICK IT UP but not until summer BAWWWBAWWWWW Argh. I know the feeling. There was this post in a.f.c. some time ago about this PDP-11 with peripherals sitting in the rain and snow, waiting to be dumped. I felt so bad, it's unbelievable. Now, I wouldn't be able to maintain a PDP-11. I don't even have the means to get it home -- and that's across the Atlantic. But it still felt extremely bad. :-( > (Such is life - I think I will end mine!) Nah, just go on collecting. Get as many machines as you can, every machine acquired is a machine saved from a fate worse than death (i.e. the dump). A. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Tue Apr 8 20:34:24 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: Wanted Systems In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20472868D@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Apr 8, 97 10:12:36 am Message-ID: <199704090134.UAA00276@mastif.ee.nd.edu> > > I can't believe you have Nova 1200's. I used a 1220 in the late 70's in > high school and it was old then. > > Ours actually had a hard drive which was about 36" on a side, covered > with woodgrain vinyl, with a capacity of a MEGABYTE!! > > I might still have the source to my Nova multiuser Star Trek around > someplace. It was so popular it got banned from the system since it > slowed everything down too much. > > Kai > If the source is in something other than assembler, I would be interested in a copy of the Star Trek program. John Ott ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu From danjo at xnet.com Tue Apr 8 21:36:59 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > > Maybe we shouldn't allow posts like > > this!!!! BAWWWWWWWWWW BAWWWWWWWW BAAWWWBAWWWWBAWWWWWW > > I could NEVER afford the shipping. I could probably DRIVE there and > > PICK IT UP but not until summer BAWWWBAWWWWW > > Argh. I know the feeling. There was this post in a.f.c. some time ago > about this PDP-11 with peripherals sitting in the rain and snow, waiting to > be dumped. I felt so bad, it's unbelievable. Now, I wouldn't be able to > maintain a PDP-11. I don't even have the means to get it home -- and that's > across the Atlantic. But it still felt extremely bad. Actually I got all involved in this *hobby* when I started working for Western Electric testing #3 ESS and #4 ESS in - oh 78?? - and had the PRIVILEDGE of walking by the loading dock on the day the crushing - YES - Crushing PDP-8's. There must have been 10 of them. It was the last load of about 50 total. Complete units with tapereaders, neat analog cards and all. It seems the government had just reversed the write-off laws that year and I had to be a "Charity Organization" to get any. One guy was just sitting there with pliers breaking off the card ID's and serial #'s as proof (or I would have gotten a couple) Talk about Dazed and Confused! I almost couldn't talk. Of course, they had just replaced all the PDP-8's with 11's. I managed to squawk out that I WOULD PAY THE TAX DIFFERENCE. but to no avail. *Red Tape* B.S. (I can't believe I still get so PI$$ED OFF ABOUT IT!) Well after that I have managed to save a few items. I still get a kick out of going to larger building and looking thru the trash 8-) but now it's all PeeCee stuff and it is garbage. > > (Such is life - I think I will end mine!) > > Nah, just go on collecting. Get as many machines as you can, every > machine acquired is a machine saved from a fate worse than death (i.e. the > dump). You OBVIOUSLY have NOT met my kids 8-) BC From pcoad at crl.com Wed Apr 9 00:59:50 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > Actually I got all involved in this *hobby* when I started working for > Western Electric testing #3 ESS and #4 ESS in - oh 78?? - and had the > PRIVILEDGE of walking by the loading dock on the day the crushing - YES - > Crushing PDP-8's. There must have been 10 of them. It was the last load > of about 50 total. Complete units with tapereaders, neat analog cards and > all. It seems the government had just reversed the write-off laws that > year and I had to be a "Charity Organization" to get any. One guy was just > sitting there with pliers breaking off the card ID's and serial #'s as > proof (or I would have gotten a couple) Talk about Dazed and Confused! > I almost couldn't talk. Of course, they had just replaced all the PDP-8's > with 11's. I managed to squawk out that I WOULD PAY THE TAX DIFFERENCE. > but to no avail. *Red Tape* B.S. (I can't believe I still get so PI$$ED > OFF ABOUT IT!) > Well after that I have managed to save a few items. I still get a kick > out of going to larger building and looking thru the trash 8-) but now > it's all PeeCee stuff and it is garbage. > This raises the question of how people got into this hobby. Was it a single event or something which happened over time (with or without you being aware of it?) I really started about two years ago. I had a few machines, but they were not a collection. I picked up an Osborne 1 at an auction for a buck. I couldn't believe that nobody else wanted it. A little later I started to pick up machines here and there which were extremely cheap. Before long I had a fairly eclectic collection. I also collect computer books (the older the better) and Infocom games. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 9 07:46:56 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > Actually I got all involved in this *hobby* when I started working for > Western Electric testing #3 ESS and #4 ESS in - oh 78?? - and had the > PRIVILEDGE of walking by the loading dock on the day the crushing - YES - > Crushing PDP-8's. There must have been 10 of them. It was the last load > of about 50 total. (inarticulate noises as the paramedics try to revive me) I think messages like this should be forbidden on this list. :-/ They're just too depressing. Only joking of course, but they're still depressing. > > Nah, just go on collecting. Get as many machines as you can, every > > machine acquired is a machine saved from a fate worse than death (i.e. the > > dump). > > You OBVIOUSLY have NOT met my kids 8-) No, but I *have* met my girlfriend's brothers. Lovely OKI IF-800 with 8" drives sitting about for 15 years in perfect shape, with all software and manuals and things. Then they discover it's a nice toy. You know: let's stick pencils into the drive slots and move them about. Let's take the disks out of their jackets and play. In the end the machine had to stay *outdoors* for *two* years *in the rain* *with* *all* *disks*. It was a nightmare when I got it and started cleaning it. All the software is long gone, of course, and the built-in printer's head assembly is so rusted I can't move it no matter what. But the machine *worked* after cleaning it up. :-) By the way, anyone in this list know about this machine? I'm looking for 8" CP/M boot disks for it, but can't find any (the closest I got was 5.25" ones, but they won't do, unfortunately -- different FORMAT.COM etc). Oh, the _evil_computer_destroyers_ (the grillfiend's brothers) now have a modified Sinclair ZX-81 (with real keyboard) in their hands. Wonder how long *that* will last. Time for another rescue operation, I think. Now. Are you beginning to appreciate your kids? :-) --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 9 18:51:16 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I really started about two years ago. Same here, almost. Actually it started three years ago when someone "sold" me a C64 for the equivalent of 0.30 UKP (an ok price for a C64, I guess), but I didn't pay much attention to it at the time. Two years ago, the large BBS/sort-of-ISP I worked for bogged down by huge Atari vs. Amiga vs. Pc vs. Mac flamewars (then again, who isn't?). The more rational people decided to hold a contest and decide who has the best toy. So they organised an official demo show with judges from the BBS staff and users. I was with the owner and high guru of the system a few weeks before that and we were playing with his TI-99/4A and trying to decide whether his MC-10 was working or not. So we though `why not bring all our old machines to the demo show to give the PeeCee/Amiga folks a demo of what computing was before *they* came along?'. Well, in the end, we managed to gather around 15 machines, including a Kaypro 2 or II, rather rare in Europe, a (dead) Sinclair ZX-80 and other machines. That's when I (subconsciously, probably) got the idea of collecting as many old home micros as possible. The nostalgia trip was immense at the time. :-) Oh, I think that's when it occured to me to create information sheets about the various items at the show -- something listing specs and capabilities, so that the people who thought Computer == {PeeCee,Amiga} found out about the ZX-80's 1k chess program, etc. That idea was implemented as the Machine Room, my old hardware home page. Alexios PS: OBTW, if I remember correctly, the winner of the demo show was the PeeCee, with `Dope'. I'm not into demos, but that thing impressed me. PS2: I think I'm posting material againt the list's charter again. This mail mentions PCs at least three times. *LART* Ouch! *LART* Yow! --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Wed Apr 9 20:22:28 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: Bernoulli Drive Message-ID: <334C40D4.BDB@oboe.calpoly.edu> Our local Goodwill has an old Bernoulli drive. Looks like a dual drive that takes two 10 meg disk (or was it 5 meg?) cartridges that are about 10" square. Includes 1 disk. Anyway if this sounds interesting to someone, I could snag it and ship it for cost. (probably $5 + shipping) Greg From dastar at crl.com Wed Apr 9 11:24:10 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > This raises the question of how people got into this hobby. Was it > a single event or something which happened over time (with or without > you being aware of it?) When I was young, I got my first computer, which was the Aquarius I mentioned before. I sold this along with my Atari 2600 with about 50 games to fund the purchase of my first Apple ][+. I wish I was enlightened back then because I would have found some other way to make the money. After a while I wanted to get an Apple ][e, but I couldn't get myself to sell my ][+. I'd had too much fun with it. So in spite of the bitching from my parents, I bought a ][e and kept my ][+. Which was really cool because now I had two apples and I could have two different things going on each one. It was really handy when I was hacking up code or cracking copy protection and such. Then my high school computer science teacher wanted to sell me his souped-up //e, which I bought, so now I had three apples. He also threw in a Soroc dumb terminal, which I think was what piqued my interested of old stuff. There was this big old teletype terminal in our classroom that I asked if I could have but he had no authority to give it to me (it was never used for anything) so he gave me the terminal instead. Then through some maneuvering I can't remember, I ended up trading with friends and acquired a commodore 64 and a TI-99/4a. These weren't particularly old back then (this was around 1987). I also got a Timex-Sinclair ZX-81 from my brother that he had traded from his friend who built it. Then in around 1989 I acquired some California Computer Systems S-100 CP/M machines. Huge, 30-lbs a piece units. There was a dual 8-inch disk drive unit, then the processor unit. My mom thought I was crazy to be hauling this shit home. She'd always be telling me to sell some of it. But I brought it into my bedroom and set it up and programmed a small adventure game on it. I got this system from a classmate in a community college course I was taking. He gave several away that he rescued from a school he taught at. Later on a couple of the people who got a system decided they didn't want theirs anymore and so they gave them to me. Then one day I was at a swap meet looking for carthridges for a 2600 I had picked up. I found the mother lode. There was this crusty guy selling all sorts of old early- to mid-80s systems like commodores, ataris, colecovisions, etc. I went spastic. After I recovered I went to the guy and offered $5 for each unit he had, and HE GLADLY ACCEPTED! He'd been wanting to get rid of this "junk" forever. So I ended up with about five Vic20s, an Atari 400, an Atari 800, a Commodore CBM (CP/M), a Colecovision, numerous Atari 2600 consoles (of different types), a Timex Sinclair ZX-81, a TRS-80 Color Computer 2, a TRS-80 mini-color computer, some other TRS-80 junk, and miscellaneous joystick controllers and game carts that he threw in. All told I paid him $120 for a trunk load of ol computers and stuff. I was stoked. And the best part is, 95 percent of the stuff worked, even though some of it had been sitting in the rain and sun for years. The day I got them it was raining, and some stuff was wet when I brought it home. But I opened the wet ones up and dried them off and they worked! The only thing that was totally dead was one of the colecovisions. The Commodore CBM and the Color Computer 2 had blown fuses, which are easily replaced (although I have yet to do so). Since then I acquired an Apple Lisa from an old boss, and Apple III from a friend and maybe one or two others that I am forgetting now. I haven't gotten anything new in quite a while but since joining this discussion group I've gotten the bug bad. I'm going to start hitting the flea markets in my area again. > Before long I had a fairly eclectic collection. I also collect computer > books (the older the better) and Infocom games. Me too. I keep old manuals and the like no matter how mundane. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Wed Apr 9 20:45:51 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? Message-ID: <199704100145.VAA00229@zephyr.cacm.org> On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Mr. Paul E Coad spake thusly unto us: > This raises the question of how people got into this hobby. Was it > a single event or something which happened over time (with or without > you being aware of it?) Well, I'm not sure whether there was a single event that got me started (other than an offer of my original Nova 1210), but I can honestly state that there was an event that made me get serious about the preservation of older machines. That event was my missing the acquisition of a PDP-15 by about a half-hour in 1987. I had expressed an interest in the machine, and was told that it was going to scrap _very soon_, so I should grab what I wanted. I was going to try and make arrangements to get the machine picked up (it was fully configured and quite large) and get the machine home. I arrived (hurriedly) to do an initial disassembly and triage on the system, only to find that the bone man had come earler in the hour, and all that was left of the system was an empty space where it once was. I knew then that -15s weren't very common, and when I realised that the count had just dropped by one, I was fairly beside myself. Other than that anecdote, I've been collecting for about 10 years or so; my stash is fairly well focussed on minicomputers, although I do have the odd micro here and there. Minicomputers are where I desire to keep my energies, especially those of DG manufacture. With DG, at its' peak, being only 1/5 the size of DEC those machines are pretty hard to come by nowadays. Any leads, of course, would be vastly appreciated. :-) While I'm greatly pleased that folks are preserving microcomputers, I've never felt a "bond" to that particular realm of design. I like things like time-states, core memory, and pulse-logic. I guess that makes me an "old fart". ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From william at ans.net Wed Apr 9 22:19:46 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704100145.VAA00229@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: <199704100319.AA17620@interlock.ans.net> > > This raises the question of how people got into this hobby. Was it > > a single event or something which happened over time (with or without > > you being aware of it?) I first ran into several boxes of DEC Flip-Chip modules at a flea market (general, not a ham/computer fest). I purchased the lot, hoping to scrap them. I never did part them out, but rather stuck them on a shelf inserted into the supplied backplane (it looked neat, with all of the green and magenta handles). I then ran into the DEC bible, _Computer Architecture_, and decided I needed to get into this stuff. A few hamfests later, while picking thru some LSI-11 boards, a man offered me an old DEC machine for $5. Of course I bought it. That PDP-8/s was my first machine (and my first adventure in moving a big rack). Other machines, mostly micros and DEC stuff, was aquired piece by piece. Nearly all were purchased at hamfests, although my other monsters came from my old school and my employer. The collection also got a boost when my first contact (the guy with the 8/s), called and said he had found more computer stuff for me. Thinking it was stuff for the PDP-8/s, I told him to come over. He did, and left me with my front yard covered with stuff from the dawn of the microcomputer era (nearly all M68 based - SWTPC, Sphere, etc.). I still do not know exactly what I have. I started sorting thew miles of paper tape (DEC PDP-8/Interdata/M68/misc.), but am still swamped. I then lost interest, and my machines sat for a few years (nothing scrapped, as I knew it deserved better). It was you lot that drew me back in! > That event was my missing the acquisition of a PDP-15 by about a > half-hour in 1987. Does anyone know how many of the 18-bitters were produced, and how many survive? > Any leads, of course, would be vastly > appreciated. :-) Maybe I am stating the obvious, but if anyone knows of any old minis slated for the scrap yard, post it on the list! The loss of that PDP-15 is tragic, as they are so rare, and perhaps in the future can be avoided. Micros, being small and nearly worthless to the scrapmen, survive much better. William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Apr 10 09:55:52 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704100145.VAA00229@zephyr.cacm.org>; from "Carl R. Friend" at Apr 9, 97 9:45 pm Message-ID: <199704100855.11701@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > This raises the question of how people got into this hobby. Was it > > a single event or something which happened over time (with or without > > you being aware of it?) > > Well, I'm not sure whether there was a single event that got me > started (other than an offer of my original Nova 1210), but I can > honestly state that there was an event that made me get serious about > the preservation of older machines. Well, I'd collected the odd machine before I seriously started, but it was a single event that made me realise that something had to be done. It happened like this. I was building my own Z-80 based microcomputer back in 1986, and needed a keyboard. Now, back then, you couldn't pick up a PC-clone keyboard for a few pounds in any PC shop, so when I saw an advert in the back of a magazine ('Electronics and Wireless World', I think) for a factory sale where encoded keyboards were being sold for \pounds 4.00, I became interested. Even better, said sale was in Cambridge, where I was living at the time. I went along (and, indeed, bought a keyboard). I noticed a Philips P850 minicomputer being sold as scrap metal for \pounds 25.00. Now, I knew nothing about the machine, but it looked _beautiful_, with a toggle-switch front panel, etc. There were even some I/O boards and manuals with it. So I bought it, and somehow got it home. I spend the afternoon looking at it (2K words core memory, a CPU built from TTL on 5 boards, a pair of large linear PSUs, etc) and reading the manuals. I toggled in a trivial program to add 2 numbers. It ran. I was hooked. This is what computing should be like. I talked to some friends about this machine, and realised a few things : 1) The P850 seemed to be rare - nobody had ever heard of it. 2) Something had to be done - and soon - since otherwise machines would be lost for ever. 3) Somebody had to do it. Museums (at that time) were preserving things like the Pilot ACE, but weren't bothering with minis and micros 4) That somebody was going to be me. I proposed collecting as much computer hardware (machines, peripherals, manuals, boards, whatever) as I could - stuff that would otherwise have been lost. I'd restore it, get it working, learn from it, etc. 5) A few other people thought likewise. We got together, and have never looked back. Since then I've rescued a large number of other machines (micros, minis, handhelds, etc), but I'll never forget the day when I got my P850. > While I'm greatly pleased that folks are preserving microcomputers, > I've never felt a "bond" to that particular realm of design. I like > things like time-states, core memory, and pulse-logic. I guess that > makes me an "old fart". Ditto. I have micros, I use micros, and heck, I even restore micros, but given the choice I'll pick a multi-chip CPU any day. Hand-stepping microcode is great fun... BTW, I have nothing made by DG, so if anyone knows of one being given away in the UK (or sold for a reasonable amount), please get in touch. > | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From classicjr at juno.com Thu Apr 10 09:42:58 1997 From: classicjr at juno.com (Jeffrey G. Rottman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: Osborne withdrawal ! References: <199704090702.AAA00484@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19970410.064317.2199.0.classicjr@juno.com> Help! I was promised an Osborne Executive a couple of weeks ago and was getting psyched up to get it for nothing other than the shipping costs, then at the last minute the guy said his wife wanted him to keep it. Anyone else have an Osborne they can part with? I have never owned one and would love to get it and pamper it. Any model will do, just would like it to be in good working order and in good physical shape. Any diskettes would be appreciated also. Thanks!! Jeff R. in Texas rottman@juno.com From dastar at crl.com Thu Apr 10 14:30:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704100145.VAA00229@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > While I'm greatly pleased that folks are preserving microcomputers, > I've never felt a "bond" to that particular realm of design. I like > things like time-states, core memory, and pulse-logic. I guess that > makes me an "old fart". You probably have space to burn. As it is my fiance has a hard time with my hobby. Just wait until I find my first mainframe and try to store it in the garage. To say the least I'll run into some opposition. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Apr 10 20:50:52 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 10, 97 12:30 (noon) Message-ID: <199704101950.22731@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > > > While I'm greatly pleased that folks are preserving microcomputers, > > I've never felt a "bond" to that particular realm of design. I like > > things like time-states, core memory, and pulse-logic. I guess that > > makes me an "old fart". > > You probably have space to burn. As it is my fiance has a hard time with > my hobby. Just wait until I find my first mainframe and try to store it > in the garage. To say the least I'll run into some opposition. Well, I've not got a mainframe _yet_, and I have no idea where I'd put one if I did... BUT, a minicomputer doesn't take up that much more floor area than a micro. A 6' rack (say something like a DEC H960) takes up about the same area as a PC + printer (actually a bit less), and holds a CPU and a few drives. OK, so if most of your collection is packed away in cupboards, then storing a mini is a bit harder, but they're not as big as some people think. In general, minicomputer boxes (the bits that slot into the rack) are a lot easier to store than micros, even without the rack. They stack up in the corner of a room quite easily - they're mostly flat-topped boxes, and are strong enough to stack, unlike micros, which (IMHO) are often impossible to store, especially the ones with built-in keyboards which simply refuse to stack :-) Of course convincing your SO that a 6' rack is a perfectly normal item of furniture is left as an exercise.... > > > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Apr 10 14:56:31 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 10, 97 12:30:20 pm Message-ID: <199704101956.NAA03233@calico.litterbox.com> I guess I don't collect so much as use. I'm getting into "trailing edge" computing (ie old 8 and 16 bit computers) because they solve problems for me as well as making me smile and remember the good old days. As an example, my father has been using a laser 128 (apple2e clone) since it was new to do his word processing. I am currently putting him together an apple2gs system so he can still do his word processing as well as having a graphical web browser, and a system fast enough to support a modern modem so I can get him on the net. He does research in geniology, so this will be valuable to him. Also, I have an hplx200 palmtop. it is essentially an 8088 xt in a package the size of two cassette tape boxes end to end. I find myself using software from the mid to late 80s constantly to live in its small memory map and CGA screen. It also does warm the cockles of my heart that some brilliant hack that someone came up with a decade ago to work within the hardware constraints of the day and do something insanely useful - will STILL be useful to me. Moreso because if it's a DOS thing I can carry the computer in my pocket. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From william at ans.net Thu Apr 10 14:58:34 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704101950.22731@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199704101958.AA20623@interlock.ans.net> > Of course convincing your SO that a 6' rack is a perfectly normal item of > furniture is left as an exercise.... I know a guy that has a Minuteman guidance computer as a coffee table - apparently it was included in the marriage contract. William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Apr 10 21:04:59 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704101956.NAA03233@calico.litterbox.com>; from "Jim" at Apr 10, 97 1:56 pm Message-ID: <199704102004.23040@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > I guess I don't collect so much as use. I'm getting into "trailing edge" I wonder how many others on this list don't even own a non-classic computer? I think all the machines I use would count, even the much-hacked AT I use for most general computing these days still has the original IBM motherboard (although with a 486 kludge-board in place of the 80286) and I/O cards built from row upon row of TTL chips My IBM XT (true-blue) runs my EPROM programmer, GAL programmer, cable tester, I2C tester, etc. My PC/AT runs my PIC programmer, and does a bit of word processing. For real programming I have a PDP8 on my desk (:-)), a PDP11 in a 6' rack in the corner, and a PERQ alongside it. Then there are plenty of other machines (CP/M, OS9, etc) that I can get out and set up in a couple of minutes when I want to use them. If I was given the latest Pentium PC, with all the current options (I'm so old-fashioned, I have no idea what is current in the PC line any more ;-)), I'd probably sell it and take the money to the next radio rally (Hamfest) and buy all the classic computers, test equipments and boatanchor radios that I could find. Modern PCs are so badly built and documented that quite simply I don't want one. The older machines are still quite capable of doing useful work, and I see no reason not to use them. > It also does warm the cockles of my heart that some brilliant hack that someone > came up with a decade ago to work within the hardware constraints of the day > and do something insanely useful - will STILL be useful to me. Moreso because > if it's a DOS thing I can carry the computer in my pocket. When I look at the software (and hardware) of 10-15 years ago, I realise how far _down_ we've gone since then. > Jim Strickland -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Apr 10 15:39:30 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2047D637D@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | From: A.R. Duell[SMTP:ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk] | I wonder how many others on this list don't even own a non-classic | computer? Depends on how you define "computer". Even my surround sound processor has a 80 MHz 40 MIPS 24-bit DSP with more than 64K of RAM on-chip. Most of our cars have sophisticated engine management computers. I mentioned to my wife the other day that my Pentium Pro has more transistors (5.5M) than the entire rest of my antique machine collection and other household items put together, _including_ her Pentium machine (3.1M). Even subtracting the Pentium chip, the Pro still has enough transistors to make about 83 PC-XT's and who knows how many Altairs. On the other hand, we all still have a bunch of Z80's even if we don't collect classics. Zilog has a huge family of Z80 processors for IR remotes, keyboard controllers, IDE hard drives, PCMCIA, televisions/cable boxes, voice memo units, serial ports, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the average American owned half a dozen Z80's. Kai From jeffh at eleventh.com Thu Apr 10 06:31:46 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >When I look at the software (and hardware) of 10-15 years ago, I realise >how far _down_ we've gone since then. Very well put Jim! I know my Amiga 3000, which is my everyday system, doesn't fit into the realm of this group (being roughly 6 years old), but it is far superior to modern systems when it comes to usability and efficiency. That is one of the reasons I appreciate the early micros so much....it's amazing what was done by programmers and such in such tight constraints. Take for example the Atari 800...this is a 2mhz 6502 cpu with 48k RAM and a full Basic, with full-screen editing, in an 8k ROM. This system amazes me at the animations and such I've seen on it at times. It's version of Frogger is great, and I typed in a Basic program from 'Compute!' that displayed the Atari logo with 128 colors onscreen at once. I think modern day systems could still learn quite a few things from the earlier ones. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Apr 10 21:45:33 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2047D637D@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>; from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Apr 10, 97 1:39 pm Message-ID: <199704102045.24869@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > | From: A.R. Duell[SMTP:ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk] > | I wonder how many others on this list don't even own a non-classic > | computer? > > Depends on how you define "computer". Even my surround sound processor > has a 80 MHz 40 MIPS 24-bit DSP with more than 64K of RAM on-chip. Most > of our cars have sophisticated engine management computers. Well, I don't drive (yet), but when I do, I'll make darn sure there's nothing in my car that's electronic, other than possibly a (valved/tube) radio!. As I keep on pointing out to friends "I'll carry a VOM in the boot (trunk), but I'm not carrying the 'scope and logic analyser as well!" In fact, I'll stand by my original statement. I don't own a non-classic computer other than possibly my pocket calculator, which is 6 years old, and has a Saturn CPU in it. > Kai -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Apr 10 21:56:07 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: ; from "hellige" at Apr 10, 97 4:31 pm Message-ID: <199704102056.25506@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On 11-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > > >When I look at the software (and hardware) of 10-15 years ago, I realise > >how far _down_ we've gone since then. > > Very well put Jim! I know my Amiga 3000, which is my everyday system, Err, didn't I say that (or at least something very like it)? > doesn't fit into the realm of this group (being roughly 6 years old), but it > is far superior to modern systems when it comes to usability and efficiency. Look at the PERQ (OK, so it's my favourite machine, but for a good reason - it's darn well designed). In 1979 it had a bit-blitter that was capable of doing 10 full-screen updates every second. The PC didn't get something like that for a good few years. Or look at the PDP11's Unibus (or Q-bus). It's elegant. It works. And there are no IRQ or DMA conflicts. The PC bus is a kludge from start to finish. If you read the PC/AT TechRef (I have), you'll find there is an official way to share IRQ lines in a PC/AT - which IBM then ignored when writing the BIOS. And that's what became the standard. I remember demonstrating my Tandy CoCo-3 in 1988 to some PC-goon or other. He had a 386 PC running MS-DOS. I had a 2 mHz 6809 running OS-9. He was totally amazed that 'that little video game' could have several programs running at once, displaying their output in different windows (something his PC didn't do at that time), and that I could even log on to my machine from a remote terminal. > That is one of the reasons I appreciate the early micros so much....it's > amazing what was done by programmers and such in such tight constraints. Take > for example the Atari 800...this is a 2mhz 6502 cpu with 48k RAM and a full > Basic, with full-screen editing, in an 8k ROM. This system amazes me at the > animations and such I've seen on it at times. It's version of Frogger is > great, and I typed in a Basic program from 'Compute!' that displayed the Atari > logo with 128 colors onscreen at once. I think modern day systems could still > learn quite a few things from the earlier ones. I don't play computer games that much, but IMHO the games from 10-15 years ago are much more fun than the modern ones. OK, so now we have 3D rendered graphics, real sound effects, but no 'plot' - nothing to do except blast everything in sight. I personally prefer a good text-only adventure with some logic behind it, and no sound. Maybe I'm just totally unusual... > > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Apr 10 16:09:18 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970410170918.00886df0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, hellige said: >On 11-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > >>When I look at the software (and hardware) of 10-15 years ago, I realise >>how far _down_ we've gone since then. Here, Here! >Take >for example the Atari 800...this is a 2mhz 6502 cpu with 48k RAM and a full >Basic, with full-screen editing, in an 8k ROM. Ummm... just a nitpicker's note: The Full-screen editor & other stuff were in 10K Rom, with the Basic in another 8K Rom, totalling 18K. Of course, there were 3rd party upgrade boards that would up the memory to 256K to be used as a Ram drive or as a printer buffer... How many people you know nowadays who are hacking their 486/Pentium machines to be able to use over 5x more memory than it's supposed to??? I love geezers! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Everyone complained to me to change my .sig, Programmer, NorthernWay | but no-one could recommend something better. zmerch@northernway.net | So you'll have to put up with this *junk* | until I find some new wisdom to share. From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Apr 10 16:18:57 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704102056.25506@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970410171857.00970b80@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: >Or look at the PDP11's Unibus (or Q-bus). It's elegant. It works. And >there are no IRQ or DMA conflicts. The PC bus is a kludge from start to >finish. If you read the PC/AT TechRef (I have), you'll find there is an >official way to share IRQ lines in a PC/AT - which IBM then ignored when >writing the BIOS. And that's what became the standard. I can expect a kludge from a hacker... because even if it's weird, it works when it's not supposed to. That takes a lot of imagination. A kludge of this magnitude from the number of people assigned to design the expensive IBM machines of that day is a crime! >I remember demonstrating my Tandy CoCo-3 in 1988 to some PC-goon or >other. He had a 386 PC running MS-DOS. I had a 2 mHz 6809 running OS-9. He >was totally amazed that 'that little video game' could have several >programs running at once, displaying their output in different windows >(something his PC didn't do at that time), and that I could even log on to >my machine from a remote terminal. Thumbs up everywhere! I have one (and still use it at least weekly) and despite it's (now I'm getting technical for the sake of conversation) 1.78 Mhz clock speed, I pitted it against a True-blue IBM 286-10 AT machine in several benchmarks (which I wrote) which included number & string sorting, prime number creation and getting the factors of a number and..... WON! People don't realize that the Intel x86 chips are *highly* inefficient, especially in their addressing and branching instructions, which gave my CoCo3 a speed advantage not equaled until I bought my 386SX16... even then it was a close race, but I couldn't get good games for my CoCo anymore... So whenever I wanted to play, I had VGA. When I wanted to work, gimme OS-9 any day! Keep on CoCoing! Roger "Merch" Merchberger > >> That is one of the reasons I appreciate the early micros so much....it's >> amazing what was done by programmers and such in such tight constraints. Take >> for example the Atari 800...this is a 2mhz 6502 cpu with 48k RAM and a full >> Basic, with full-screen editing, in an 8k ROM. This system amazes me at the >> animations and such I've seen on it at times. It's version of Frogger is >> great, and I typed in a Basic program from 'Compute!' that displayed the Atari >> logo with 128 colors onscreen at once. I think modern day systems could still >> learn quite a few things from the earlier ones. > >I don't play computer games that much, but IMHO the games from 10-15 years >ago are much more fun than the modern ones. OK, so now we have 3D rendered >graphics, real sound effects, but no 'plot' - nothing to do except blast >everything in sight. I personally prefer a good text-only adventure with >some logic behind it, and no sound. > >Maybe I'm just totally unusual... > > >> >> Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com > > >-- >-tony >ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk >The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill > > -- Roger Merchberger | Everyone complained to me to change my .sig, Programmer, NorthernWay | but no-one could recommend something better. zmerch@northernway.net | So you'll have to put up with this *junk* | until I find some new wisdom to share. From idavis at comland.com Thu Apr 10 16:37:04 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: Just getting started. Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970410213704.008f212c@mail.comland.com > Speaking of getting started, my next door neighbor who is retired and in his sixties and I were talking the other day, and I mentioned that I would kill to be retired. He asked me just what I would do with my time. I mentioned that I would probably spend every waking moment on my atari writing programs. He looked interested and wanted to go take a look. He has never owned a computer, and can't afford an expensive pc, and what I showed him on my atari just blew him away. He now wants to buy an atari and get started in the world of computers. I am now on the active alert for an atari system for him. It's neat to see someone that hasn't ever owned a computer get interested especially on one of the older computers. He was even happy about the fact that you could connect it to a tv, and not have to shell out hundreds of dollars for a monitor that you can't use on anything but the computer. I think these classic computers are great to learn on and now they can be picked up for a very reasonable price. Of course, I miss being able to go down to the local store and pick up what I needed, but there are things still out there, it just takes a little longer to find. I got started when I went to visit my uncle in california in 1981 or 82. He had an atari 800, and after playing a few games, I asked him how you make a game. He pulled a sheet of paper out of the basic manual, and told me to type this in exactly as it is printed. I did, and two hours later, I had an american flag on the screen. I couldn't decide whether you just type and type and whatever comes up, you just enjoy it, or if these people actually knew what they were doing. Before I had even received my atari, I had magazines laying around, and had just about figured out how to program before I had even gotten the machine. I bet I really pissed off that u.p.s. guy stopping him every day asking if I had a package. That started my career in computers, and now I program for a living. I still own my atari, and use it often. I didn't start as a classic collector, I started as a classic user, but through time I have ended up as a classic collector. If anyone comes across an atari, or atari equipment that they don't want, I will be more than happy to give it a good working home. To me it feels like stepping into a time machine and rolling back the clock to my high school years to be able to sit down and use my old machines. Of course, back then I didn't have any bills, and had 3 months off in the summer. Maybe that's why I keep using my atari. Isaac Davis : Doing the bull dance. idavis@comland.com : Feeling the flow. indavis@juno.com : Working it. Working it. From lists at phx6.phxmedia.com Thu Apr 10 19:49:13 1997 From: lists at phx6.phxmedia.com (Lists at phxmedia) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: Just getting started. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970410213704.008f212c@mail.comland.com > from "Isaac Davis" at Apr 10, 97 04:37:04 pm Message-ID: <199704110049.RAA17232@phx6.phxmedia.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 633 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970410/644b76c5/attachment.ksh From jeffh at eleventh.com Thu Apr 10 10:23:26 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >I remember demonstrating my Tandy CoCo-3 in 1988 to some PC-goon or >other. He had a 386 PC running MS-DOS. I had a 2 mHz 6809 running OS-9. He >was totally amazed that 'that little video game' could have several >programs running at once, displaying their output in different windows >(something his PC didn't do at that time), and that I could even log on to >my machine from a remote terminal. I still want to find a disk system for my CoCo-3 so that I can run OS-9 on it. OS-9 is still amazing to this day, which is why any number of companies use it for the base OS for cutting edge stuff such as set-top boxes for the TV. Until I saw it, I would've never thought you could put a Unix-like OS witch was multitasking and multiuser on a 128k 8bit machine! I've heard mention of there being a version that runs on the Commodore 128 as well, but haven't been able to find anything out about it. >I don't play computer games that much, but IMHO the games from 10-15 years >ago are much more fun than the modern ones. OK, so now we have 3D rendered >graphics, real sound effects, but no 'plot' - nothing to do except blast >everything in sight. I personally prefer a good text-only adventure with >some logic behind it, and no sound. I agree. The excitement just isn't there, even though the technology is years ahead in graphics and sound. About the only game I've enjoyed recently was a 3d bitmapped update of 'Asteroids' on the Mac, which I play on my Amiga 3000 under emulation. I'm also a big fan of INFOCOM's text adventure games, as well as the Basic 'Star Trek' game that seems to have been ported to nearly every platform known. I have a number of original disks for my Atari and Commodore's that have the INFOCOM games on them. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Thu Apr 10 10:31:47 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >The Full-screen editor & other stuff were in 10K Rom, with the Basic in >another 8K Rom, totalling 18K. I wasn't aware that the editor for Basic was in the OS Rom...I stand corrected. Still, to think that the game cartridges either were confined to the 8k space or they somehow bankswitched to allow larger programs, I find interesting. >Of course, there were 3rd party upgrade boards that would up the memory to >256K to be used as a Ram drive or as a printer buffer... How many people >you know nowadays who are hacking their 486/Pentium machines to be able to >use over 5x more memory than it's supposed to??? A friend of mine had his Atari 800 upgraded to 128k I believe. It required a bit of soldering on his part to incorporate the bankswitching scheme the manufacturer used. He also had a 'Happy' chip and any number of other things added to it as well, having bought the machine new in the early 80's and continued to use it for quite a few years. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Thu Apr 10 10:46:16 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well I went out yet again today and found a really nice IBM 5155 Portable PC at the local Salvation Army thrift store. I picked it up and brought it home, and it works like a champ! The only DOS I had for it though was either CoronaDOS 1.25 or 2.11, and both booted fine on it, though I can't get either CP/M-86 or Concurrent CP/M to boot on it. This is an interesting machine considering it has the full 8 expansion slots in the rear! I think it will make a nice addition to the Osbourne and Kaypro portables I already have, though I hadn't planned on adding a PC to the collection at all. Now all I have to do to round out the portables is find a Commodore SX-64 some day for a good price. BTW, the IBM has a whopping 256k of RAM. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From dastar at crl.com Thu Apr 10 21:15:30 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704101950.22731@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > In general, minicomputer boxes (the bits that slot into the rack) are a > lot easier to store than micros, even without the rack. They stack up in > the corner of a room quite easily - they're mostly flat-topped boxes, and > are strong enough to stack, unlike micros, which (IMHO) are often > impossible to store, especially the ones with built-in keyboards which > simply refuse to stack :-) I know well of what you speak. I have to alternate my console systems (ie. one right-side up and the other on top of it top-side down) to get any kind of efficient storage going. On the other hand, the CP/M mini's that I have are all flat-top steel boxes that stack quite well. The last weekend I finished up on a rugged shelf I built from 2x4s and plywood. It has 4 shelves (top included) each with a surface area of abour 4' x 5' and holds my old computer collection nicely. Its a hell of a lot nicer than having everything stacked along side my pool table. Now I can play pool again. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From transit at primenet.com Thu Apr 10 23:57:36 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How did I get started . . . I remember playing around with TRS-80's in school, and Apples, CoCo's and Vic's/C64's in computer stores and other places, but I had bought a TI 99/4A. Remember, this was the early-mid 80's, when most of these machines would cost you at least $400 or so. At those prices, you became quite the advocate for what you had bought: you wanted to defend your investment . . . Fast forward to late 1990. I'm standing in a flea market in Southern California, looking around for a packet radio (special modem used in ham radio) when I see someone selling a Radio Shack Color Computer for $10. Now, the Color Computer has a special place in my heart because that's the computer I learned to program on (I spent far too much time in my highschool days, hanging around Radio Shack, playing with this machine!) Of course, that machine cost around $600 back in early 1981 . . .and now I can have it for $10? I snapped it up, took it home, hooked it up to the TV, and enjoyed the nostalgia rush. I even loaded up a cassette full of old BASIC programs I had written . . . During the next few months, I bought an Atari 800, a BBC Model B, an Aquarius (was really given to me free!), a NEC 6001, a Franklin Ace Apple Clone (needed it to run my Alphasyntauri music synthesizer, which I also got at the flea market), and eventually, a Commodore 128 (never wanted a 64, BASIC was too minimal . ..) This was in addition to the TI 99/4A, the Apple IIe, and the Amiga 1000 that I also obtained new. I still have all of these machines, and currently have the TI, the Amiga and the Alphasyntauri connected to a mixer, for electronic music projects. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From transit at primenet.com Fri Apr 11 00:00:18 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, and I forgot my two XT-class PC clones. One's a "no-name" brand, and one's the much ballyhooed "Leading Edge D". (That Leading Edge is responsible, in part, for getting me my current job, I strongly believe that!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pcoad at crl.com Fri Apr 11 03:24:34 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704100145.VAA00229@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote something like: > While I'm greatly pleased that folks are preserving microcomputers, > I've never felt a "bond" to that particular realm of design. I like > things like time-states, core memory, and pulse-logic. I guess that > makes me an "old fart". > I have a lot of respect for people who preserve minis and mainframes. Workstations (Sun's in particular) and 70s and 80's micros are what grab me since they are what I have used most. I would prefer to collect workstations[1], Unix boxen, and machines which I have used in the past. But, fate seems to want me to collect portable (or in most cases schlepable) CP/M machines. Is this a generational thing? My first computer exposure what to a mainframe in the late 70's, but my first computer was an 80's micro. Are people in the 40+ age group more likely to have fond memories of minis? I may not be an "old fart", but seening today's kids, sometimes I feel like one. (Nintendo?, why in my day we had to type in our games on membrane keyboards. It took hours to type them in. We stored programs on cassette tape, and we liked it...) [1] There are a good number of Sun 3's around. Unfortunately they seem to always be just the cpu. If anyone in the silicon valley area (or anywhere near there) would like to trade an old Sun for an Atari 1040ST with about 40lbs of accessories, let me know. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Old fart in training. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri Apr 11 09:43:21 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970410171857.00970b80@mail.northernway.net>; from "Roger Merchberger" at Apr 10, 97 5:18 pm Message-ID: <199704110843.15794@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > >Or look at the PDP11's Unibus (or Q-bus). It's elegant. It works. And > >there are no IRQ or DMA conflicts. The PC bus is a kludge from start to > >finish. If you read the PC/AT TechRef (I have), you'll find there is an > >official way to share IRQ lines in a PC/AT - which IBM then ignored when > >writing the BIOS. And that's what became the standard. > > I can expect a kludge from a hacker... because even if it's weird, it works > when it's not supposed to. That takes a lot of imagination. Hmmm... Working when it's not supposed to is not a kludge. It's plain good design IMHO. In other words, a good design should do the right thing under all circumstances. > > A kludge of this magnitude from the number of people assigned to design the > expensive IBM machines of that day is a crime! The point is that the IBM ISA bus doesn't _ever_ do the right thing. If there were 2 ways to do something, then they picked the wrong one. It's amazingly bad. [CoCo3] > Thumbs up everywhere! I have one (and still use it at least weekly) and > despite it's (now I'm getting technical for the sake of conversation) 1.78 I liked the design so much that I shipped one over here from the States. I ordered the service manual first (One nice thing about Tandy machines was that the service manuals were always available), read it, and ordered the machine. Tandy never sold the CoCo 3 in the UK, for all they'd designed a PAL video version, according to the manual > Mhz clock speed, I pitted it against a True-blue IBM 286-10 AT machine in Which true-blue machine was a 10MHz 80286? > several benchmarks (which I wrote) which included number & string sorting, > prime number creation and getting the factors of a number and..... WON! > People don't realize that the Intel x86 chips are *highly* inefficient, > especially in their addressing and branching instructions, which gave my Indeed. I once read the data sheets on (I think) the 80486, and was amazed by the fact that some quite simple instructions took 60+ clock cycles. It appeared that either Intel couldn't design a CPU, or were shoving the clock rate up (marketing?) but taking so many cycles to do anything that the real speed was very low. > Roger Merchberger | Everyone complained to me to change my .sig, -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri Apr 11 09:48:51 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: ; from "hellige" at Apr 10, 97 8:23 pm Message-ID: <199704110848.15891@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I still want to find a disk system for my CoCo-3 so that I can run OS-9 on I assume you realise that a CoCo2 disk drive + controller will work. That's what I currently use. The very first CoCo disk controller needed a -12V line for the main controller chip (1793?), and won't work in later CoCo's unless you add an external PSU. This is possible, though. > it. OS-9 is still amazing to this day, which is why any number of companies > use it for the base OS for cutting edge stuff such as set-top boxes for the > TV. Until I saw it, I would've never thought you could put a Unix-like OS > witch was multitasking and multiuser on a 128k 8bit machine! I've heard Actually, you can run OS-9 level 1 in 64K. A CoCo 2 will do it (although the 32*16 text display, upper case only, makes programming a pain!). OS-9 level 2 needs an MMU (the GIME chip on the CoCo3 gives you that), and probably 128K. > mention of there being a version that runs on the Commodore 128 as well, but > haven't been able to find anything out about it. There may be Unix-like OS's for the Commodore 128, but they won't (AFAIK) be OS-9. OS-9 uses some neat features of the 6809 chip, like the ability to write truely position-independant code (the 6809 has relative subroutine calls, and PC-relative addressing for data, for example). > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri Apr 11 09:59:33 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: ; from "hellige" at Apr 10, 97 8:46 pm Message-ID: <199704110859.15992@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Well I went out yet again today and found a really nice IBM 5155 Portable > PC at the local Salvation Army thrift store. I picked it up and brought it In case you've not spotted it, most of that machine is built from standard IBM parts. The motherboard in that machine is a standard XT one. The video card is a standard IBM CGA card (although the monitor is monochrome, and plugs into the modulator connector), and the floppy controller is the standard PC/XT one What is different is the PSU (different output cables and box, otherwise pretty standard), the drives (half-height, or as IBM call them 'slimline drives'), and the monitor. The latter seems to be a Zenith composite video monitor. Schematics for everything but the PSU are in the appropriate TechRefs (PC/XT and Portable Techref for the motherboard and keyboard, Options and Adapters TechRef for everything else). > good price. BTW, the IBM has a whopping 256k of RAM. If you want 640K without wasting a slot, here's what to do : Remove the motherboard (Yes, it's a pain to do so - you have to remove the drives first to get at one of the screws!) Remove banks 0 and 1 of RAM chips and replace them with 41256 (or equivalent) 256Kbit chips. Leave the 64K chips in banks 2 and 3. All the rams face the same way. Put a 74F158 (or 157) in the empty 16 pin socket at the front edge of the board. A slower chip (like a 74LS158) may also work - I will have to check. This chip faces the same way as the surrounding chips. Solder a jumper between pads E1 and E2 at the right edge of the board Reassemble and enjoy 640K :-) This is an official IBM mod IMHO. My TechRef shows schematics for both versions of the board. > > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From chris at thanatos.yawc.net Thu Apr 10 09:13:50 1997 From: chris at thanatos.yawc.net (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704110843.15794@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <3.0.1.32.19970410171857.00970b80@mail.northernway.net>; from "Roger Merchberger" at Apr 10, 97 5:18 pm Message-ID: <199704111313.OAA15354@thanatos.yawc.net> > > Mhz clock speed, I pitted it against a True-blue IBM 286-10 AT machine in > > Which true-blue machine was a 10MHz 80286? PS/2 50 and 50z IIRC had 10Mhz 286s. - /-------------------------------------------------------------------\ | The Lost One, Thanatos admin and all round good egg | You can't | | Contact Thanatos BBS on *http://thanatos.yawc.net, | fool me. | | *ftp://thanatos.yawc.net or | There ain't | | *telnet://thanatos.yawc.net | no Sanity | | | Clause! | \-------------------------------------------------------------------/ From kevan at motiv.co.uk Fri Apr 11 08:58:15 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704111358.OAA20633@cream.motiv.co.uk> In message you write: > > Is this a generational thing? My first computer exposure what to a > mainframe in the late 70's, but my first computer was an 80's micro. > Are people in the 40+ age group more likely to have fond memories > of minis? > I think there will be a strong corrolation here. I started my computing on my older brothers ZX80, I was 13 at the time. Thus I was brought up on the home computer boom of the early eighties. These are the machines I love to collect. Now, for me, the best machines are the ones that were the complete failures. I also like collecting Unix workstations because I have been programming on Unix platforms for my entire working career. From what I remember I think the desire to get a useable Unix machine at home (couldn 't afford a PC to run Linux) is what got me started collecting. I have got some PDP kit, but only because I couldn't see it go into a skip, and the possibility that I may be able to get an early version on Unix running on them. But as hardware goes they don't hold any nostalgic interest for me. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Fri Apr 11 09:58:50 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers Message-ID: <199704111458.AA17586@bs014.swec.com> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:58:15 +0100, Kevan is rumoured to have said: > [On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 01:24:34, PEC wrote:] > > Is this a generational thing? My first computer exposure what to a > > mainframe in the late 70's, but my first computer was an 80's micro. > > Are people in the 40+ age group more likely to have fond memories > > of minis? > > I think there will be a strong corrolation here. Oh come on, guys. I'm not _that_ old :-) (36). One of the reasons that I cherish the minicomputer architectures is, admittedly, nostalgia, but the other reasons include the fact that they're very servicable (frequently with off-the-shelf components) and they provide a wonder tactile sense of the essence of computing. Few things compare to hand-assembling programs, entering them in binary via a front panel, and having them work. Also, the average minicomputer is simple enough to understand its' inner workings at a gate level; this makes minis admirable teaching tools. > I started my computing on my older brothers ZX80, I was 13 at the > time. Thus I was brought up on the home computer boom of the early > eighties. I was a bit of a "late bloomer" when it comes to computing. I was always interested in the machines, all the way from early childhood, and was lucky enough to have relatives with contacts at MIT and Harvard. I got to see some wonderful stuff then (even played Space- war on Harvard's PDP-1!) but never got to do any programming until my second year of secondary school in the late '70s. The first machine I programmed on was the Nova 840 I have in my collection now. The machine I "cut teeth" on in a hardware sense was an Inter- data Model 3, in my third year of ss. Although I bought a VIC-20 (for the princely sum of (US)$300) in 1980 (?), I never really "took to" the micro- architectures (it might also have been that they were so _slow_ compared to the PDP- 10s I was working on at the time). I think I still have the VIC around someplace. Cheers. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From transit at primenet.com Fri Apr 11 10:12:54 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:05 2005 Subject: Coco disk controller (was: Re: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704110848.15891@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > I still want to find a disk system for my CoCo-3 so that I can run OS-9 on > > I assume you realise that a CoCo2 disk drive + controller will work. > That's what I currently use. > > The very first CoCo disk controller needed a -12V line for the main > controller chip (1793?), and won't work in later CoCo's unless you add an > external PSU. This is possible, though. I remember getting one of these earlier disk controllers, and running a wire from the disk drive's 12V power supply to one of the pins on the controller cartridge. (I still have this, and can dig-it-out if needed . ..) From lists at phx6.phxmedia.com Fri Apr 11 12:52:07 1997 From: lists at phx6.phxmedia.com (Miscellaneous Lists) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: References: <199704100145.VAA00229@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: <199704111752.KAA20400@phx6.phxmedia.com> > [1] There are a good number of Sun 3's around. Unfortunately they seem to > always be just the cpu. If anyone in the silicon valley area (or anywhere > near there) would like to trade an old Sun for an Atari 1040ST with about > 40lbs of accessories, let me know. > Hi! I have a couple of Sun 3's available with Monochrome monitors, I'd be willing to trade for your Atari box... I'm in Los Angeles, and come up to San Jose every week on Wednesdays (though it'd be a right pain in the ass to lug this huge hulking monitor up there on the plane...) Send me some email at jv@phxmedia.com if you're interested. -- Phoenix Media Labs From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 11 06:08:07 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Is this a generational thing? My first computer exposure what to a > mainframe in the late 70's, but my first computer was an 80's micro. > Are people in the 40+ age group more likely to have fond memories > of minis? Of course. My own exposure was to micros in the 80s, so I begun by getting machines I had worked with back then. I don't discriminate at all, though, and would definitely love a PDP-8. But with storage space waning, seriously collecting minis (I won't even dare to think about mainframes) is a bit of a problem. Ignoring the fact that I can't seem to find any, anyway. :-) > I may not be an "old fart", but seening today's kids, sometimes I feel > like one. (Nintendo?, why in my day we had to type in our games on > membrane keyboards. It took hours to type them in. We stored programs > on cassette tape, and we liked it...) "And you tell that to young people, AND THEY WON'T BELIEVE YOU!" :-) Seriously now, I got my first (long expected) when I spent about an hour showing a Spectrum to my current flatmate (aged 19 I think) and trying to explain how you plug it into a TV set for display (instead of a monitor) and a tape recorder for data storage (but where's the drive?). Once she realised that the computer *was* the keyboard, a computer does *not* necessarily come with a printer and, once you write data to the tape, you can actually *load it back* again, everything was fine. Until she asked if I could lend it to her to do her industrial design CAD and Word work on. I think the Speccy's insulted now. :-) --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From jeffh at eleventh.com Thu Apr 10 15:24:56 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >In case you've not spotted it, most of that machine is built from standard >IBM parts. Yes, I had noticed that it appeared to be made out of standard looking parts, though the PSU was different than the XT's, as I have an extra XT PSU here I was keeping around just in case I ever had a project, such as external drives or such, that needed one. I had forgotten how much the very early XT keyboards left to be desired though! >If you want 640K without wasting a slot, here's what to do : Thanks for the info on the MOD! It likely won't be done anytime soon, but it's a good thing to know about. About the only thing I plan on doing right away is adding a serial port to it. Since you seem rather knowledgable of the system, do you know why it won't boot into CP/M-86 ver 1.1, but continues into the BASIC ROM after it checks the drive? Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From dcobley at island.net Sat Apr 12 10:16:23 1997 From: dcobley at island.net (David Cobley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: Hewlett-Packard HP125 Keyboards Message-ID: <199704121516.IAA22691@norm.island.net> Hi all. I'm pleased to report that the Xerox 16/8 system I offered for adoption here, has started its lengthy journey to it's new home in North Carolina, and the Kaypro Service manual is on its way to Oregon. Now its my turn to ask for help. Some time ago, at our local Thrift store, I bought two Hewlett-Packard HP125 Display units. They contain the monitor and CPU for these CP/M units and I have a good collection of suitable peripheral drive units. I only paid $2:50 each for the Display units. And they seem to work OK but I really can't be sure until I get keyboards. I also have a set of boot disks for them. But I have no keyboards. I understand the same keyboard was used with the H-P 26xx series of Terminals. Does anyone have one or two suitable keyboards they'd be willing to sell to me? My e-mail address is listed below. Thanks and cheers, David Cobley. Fidonet on the ADAM, CP/M Tech and Hewlett-Packard Echoes. Internet-dcobley@island.net, or, davidc@macn.bc.ca From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Apr 12 18:47:22 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: from "hellige" at Apr 11, 97 01:24:56 am Message-ID: <199704122347.RAA15812@calico.litterbox.com> Hmmm. Y'know, if that portable really is built up from a standard PC motherboard with the video connector in a card slot, you could (if you wanted to) change the motherboard for a newer one and have all kinds of fun. Yeah, I know this is a collecter's item probably, but with PCs upgrading is my first instinct. I don't even want to talk about how much that's cost me over the years. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From jeffh at eleventh.com Thu Apr 10 16:29:56 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Hmmm. Y'know, if that portable really is built up from a standard PC >motherboard with the video connector in a card slot, you could (if you wanted >to) change the motherboard for a newer one and have all kinds of fun. The biggest hurdles would be the 8-3/8" CRT (measured bezel-bezel) and the power supply inside. If one wanted to upgrade the CRT as well, you'd have a hard time finding a modern one to fit, or you'd have to go with an expenisve LCD, which would destroy the appearance that it was still the orginal machine. Also, given that most XT-clones tended to ship with 135-150W power supplies, and the early IBM's shipped with even less, you'd have a hard time running a newer board on one. I tried a few years ago with a 386DX-40, and it didn't like it at all! >Yeah, I know this is a collecter's item probably, but with PCs upgrading is >my first instinct. I don't even want to talk about how much that's cost me >over the years. Your idea isn't any worse than turning the orginal Mac's into aquariums, which seems to have a bit of a following! At least you're talking of keeping it a useful computer. I know the feeling about the upgrade-mania though...it's one of the things that turned me away from the PC, though I have two now, including the portable. Jeff Jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Thu Apr 10 16:38:40 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >I assume you realise that a CoCo2 disk drive + controller will work. >That's what I currently use. Actually, it's just that I've not run across the drive and/or controller yet. I recall seeing the items years ago on the clearance shelf of a local Radio Shack, and could kick myself for not picking them up...then again, I didn't have a CoCo at that point either. It brings to mind that I saw a whole bunch of TRS-80 bus mice for the Model 2000 at the military exchange in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba about 1990 or so...long after they became hard to find here in the U.S. I had just gotten rid of my Model 2000, so didn't bother picking any of them up either. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Apr 13 16:33:24 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: ; from "hellige" at Apr 11, 97 1:24 am Message-ID: <199704131533.14184@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On 11-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > > >In case you've not spotted it, most of that machine is built from standard > >IBM parts. > > Yes, I had noticed that it appeared to be made out of standard looking > parts, though the PSU was different than the XT's, as I have an extra XT PSU > here I was keeping around just in case I ever had a project, such as external > drives or such, that needed one. I had forgotten how much the very early XT > keyboards left to be desired though! The PSU is very similar electrically (although I think it's 114W, not 135W, or something). Mechanically it's very different. > > >If you want 640K without wasting a slot, here's what to do : > > Thanks for the info on the MOD! It likely won't be done anytime soon, but > it's a good thing to know about. About the only thing I plan on doing right > away is adding a serial port to it. It's worth doing - 41256's are trivial to obtain (off old 286 memory boards if nothing else!), and it takes about 5 minutes. I did it to my portable the day I got it... > > Since you seem rather knowledgable of the system, do you know why it won't > boot into CP/M-86 ver 1.1, but continues into the BASIC ROM after it checks > the drive? No idea, I'm afraid. Does CP/M 86 run on an XT? (I beleive a few things wouldn't) - the portable is really an XT (and not a PC) system. > > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Apr 13 16:36:36 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: <199704122347.RAA15812@calico.litterbox.com>; from "Jim" at Apr 12, 97 5:47 pm Message-ID: <199704131536.14209@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Hmmm. Y'know, if that portable really is built up from a standard PC > motherboard with the video connector in a card slot, you could (if you wanted > to) change the motherboard for a newer one and have all kinds of fun. You can't, or at least not easily. The problem is that the keyboard interface is different between the XT and AT (and later) machines, and, of course, the portable has an XT type keyboard which is built into the case (it's a flap that folds over the screen). An upgrade is going to be difficult Also, the monitor is certainly CGA only. There's no way of using (say) a VGA card with it. Quite apart from the fact that the machine should be kept original. After all, it's one of the few portables for which a real techref is available... > Jim Strickland -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri Apr 11 12:41:28 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 13-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >The PSU is very similar electrically (although I think it's 114W, not >135W, or something). Mechanically it's very different. That's certainly not much to be running everything including the monitor off of. One would think that with the addition of that CRT that they'd have upped the power a little. >It's worth doing - 41256's are trivial to obtain (off old 286 memory >boards if nothing else!), and it takes about 5 minutes. I did it to my >portable the day I got it... What about the other chip you said needed to be put in...how hard is it to locate? It doesn't sound like the process would be terribly hard. >No idea, I'm afraid. Does CP/M 86 run on an XT? (I beleive a few things >wouldn't) - the portable is really an XT (and not a PC) system. I've since learned that no, CP/M-86 will not run on an XT! Which is too bad considering I have the full packages of both it and Concurrent CP/M sitting here and the 5155 is the only machine that's even close to what's needed to use it. Oh well! Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kayro 2X, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri Apr 11 12:43:35 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 13-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Quite apart from the fact that the machine should be kept original. After >all, it's one of the few portables for which a real techref is >available... And that's exactly what I intend to do with it. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kayro 2X, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 14 01:40:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: Well, today was a rather good day out at the swap meet, my first excursion in a couple years. It started out slow. The first thing I found was one lowly Atari 2600 PacMan cart sitting amidst some guy's junk. For some reason I thought I would buy it (?) thinking maybe I didn't already have PacMan (whatever) and it went like this: Me: How about a quarter? Him: 1 dollar. Me: A quarter? Him: 1 dollar. Me: How about 50 cents? Him: ok. Anyway, it got way better. Walking along I found a beautiful little TimexSinclair 1000! At least I'm am darned sure it is, because the label is missing on the top but the bottom has a stamp which has "CEC8E4TS1000R1" in it. There is also a sticker with a serial number and "Model M330" on it. Anyway, I've never actually seen one, but have been looking for one for years! And finally its mine! MINE! Haven't tested it yet but I'm sure it works. Its in good condition. Could someone who has one describe theirs so I can figure out exactly what I have? I know there were different varieties of the TS1000. Mine has an Ear and Mic jack on the side. What the hell are those for? Oh, duh, just figured it out...data recorder. Never mind. You know how hard it is to find a 9V DC power source with a 1/8" headphone jack? I looked all over the meet for one, finally found one but the seller wanted three bucks for it so I passed. I can't encourage that kind of larceny :) So continuing on I found some more Atari 2600 carts I didn't have, and then I found an original IBM PC/XT. The guy wanted $50 but I promptly talked him down to $7. What a steal. Haven't tested it yet but it "looks" like it will work :) Now I want the Original IBM PC and a PC Jr. The funny thing is, I paid more for 9 Atari 2600 games ($11 in one case) than an entire PC. So moving forward, I found someone selling a Macintosh 512K. Cool, I'd been wanting to add a classic Mac to my collection for some time. But this one was missing the keyboard and mouse. They only wanted $20 for it. I tried talking them down but they didn't want to move. Later I found someone selling a complete Mac+. Now this one I know was hot. At first they wanted $50 but I talked them down to $15 (I used the "It's all the money I have right now" ruse, except in this case it was true). I really wanted to get the other Mac, because it was closer to the original Macintosh, but this one was more complete, so I got it instead. Now, I don't want to disparage the fine folks of Oakland, California, but as I said before, I'm most positive this system was hot. They were too willing to dump off a perfectly good Macintosh (at least I think its perfectly good, haven't tested it yet) for too little money. Later on when I was going through the software I got with it I found some BMUG disks (BMUG = BayArea Macintosh User's Group). So I'll be contacting BMUG to see if any of their members "lost" a macintosh within the last couple months, and if I find a match I'll sell it back to them for what I paid. (I'm such a nice guy, eh!?) Throughout the day I saw a LOT of Nintendo consoles, carthridges and accessories (not classic enough yet). I'm sure in 5-10 years when I inevitably start collecting Nintendo crap I'll be wishing I had picked up a lot of this stuff. Oh well, maybe when I have enough money to buy all the truly classic stuff I want and THEN some cash left over for the common tripe, I'll start collecting nintendo. So anyway, at the end of the day I ended up with an IBM PC/XT (original), a MacintoshPlus, a TimexSinclair 1000 (yeah!) and about 25 more atari 2600 carts, plus an intellivision cart and a TI/994a cart. Total bill: $45. Not bad. And I'm still under my budget of $100 per month for classic computer collecting (I just implemented that budget, but I think it may be too high. I tend to get carried away when collecting old computer stuff and, if left unchecked, would buy everything I came across. As it is I just may go back for that Mac512K.) Now I just need to keep my new booty hidden from my fiance. If I can offer any tip to would-be flea market bargain hunters: haggle. Start way low and work up. Some people don't even know what they're selling, and think just because it's a computer (computer = high tech) it must be worth big bucks. You have to slap them around a bit until they come to their senses. No common system console (ie. Vic20s, Atari 2600s, etc) should go for more than $10 ($15 at the VERY most). No game carthridge should go for more than $.50 (IMO, unless you REALLY want it, then NO more than $2.00 each). What do you all think? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From pcoad at crl.com Mon Apr 14 02:27:26 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers In-Reply-To: <199704111458.AA17586@bs014.swec.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:58:15 +0100, Kevan is rumoured to have said: > > > [On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 01:24:34, PEC wrote:] > > > > Is this a generational thing? My first computer exposure what to a > > > mainframe in the late 70's, but my first computer was an 80's micro. > > > Are people in the 40+ age group more likely to have fond memories > > > of minis? > > > > I think there will be a strong corrolation here. > > Oh come on, guys. I'm not _that_ old :-) (36). Sorry Carl. I didn't mean to say you were _really_ old. I made a bad guess based on the minis and the 'old fart' thing. That'll teach me to not extrapolate from a small number of data points again! Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of this range? --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Apr 14 09:50:47 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: ; from "hellige" at Apr 11, 97 10:41 pm Message-ID: <199704140850.28157@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On 13-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > > > >The PSU is very similar electrically (although I think it's 114W, not > >135W, or something). Mechanically it's very different. > > That's certainly not much to be running everything including the monitor > off of. One would think that with the addition of that CRT that they'd have > upped the power a little. Remember there's no hard disk - and in fact IBM state that the portable doesn't support a hard disk - which may account for the lower power PSU. Mind you, I've seen 5155's where one of the floppy drives had been replaced by a 1/2 height winchester, with a short-length controller card in one of the expansion slots. It seemed OK, but then such drives took a lot less power than the original full-height 10Mbyte unit. > > > >It's worth doing - 41256's are trivial to obtain (off old 286 memory > >boards if nothing else!), and it takes about 5 minutes. I did it to my > >portable the day I got it... > > What about the other chip you said needed to be put in...how hard is it to > locate? It doesn't sound like the process would be terribly hard. The 74F158? Most _good_ electronic suppliers should be able to provide it for a couple of dollars. I will have to look up exactly what is needed, though. > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 14 03:54:57 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Anyway, it got way better. Walking along I found a beautiful little > TimexSinclair 1000! At least I'm am darned sure it is, because the label > is missing on the top but the bottom has a stamp which has > "CEC8E4TS1000R1" in it. There is also a sticker with a serial number and > "Model M330" on it. Anyway, I've never actually seen one, but have been Well damn and double damn. My poor little TS1000 is brain dead. I don't get so much as a flicker on my TV out of it. Can someone suggest any tips towards reviving it? I took it apart and the only noticeable problem I noticed was that the keyboard connector strip was very brittle and broke in a couple places. I'm sure whatever the case may be the keyboard requires a new connector. I'm using my Atari 2600 9VDC adaptor which should work fine. Does anyone know what voltages I should see on the back edge connector? Should I try swapping out the CPU? There is also another 40-PIN chip in there (forgot what it was) and the Sinclair ROM chip. I don't suppose I could find a replacement for that. Judging from the brittleness of the keyboard connector, my guess is that the poor guy has been baking in the sun for years. Oh well. Guess I gotta keep searching. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Apr 14 10:04:19 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 14, 97 1:54 am Message-ID: <199704140904.28495@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Well damn and double damn. My poor little TS1000 is brain dead. I don't > get so much as a flicker on my TV out of it. Can someone suggest any > tips towards reviving it? I took it apart and the only noticeable > problem I noticed was that the keyboard connector strip was very brittle The machine will work without the keyboard. > and broke in a couple places. I'm sure whatever the case may be the > keyboard requires a new connector. I'm using my Atari 2600 9VDC adaptor > which should work fine. Does anyone know what voltages I should see on Have you got the polarity correct? I _think_ (and somebody should correct me if I'm not) that the TS1000 power jack has the tip positive. I'd be inclined to check for +5V at the output of the 7805 regulator. The modulator case (silver metal box) is a 0v ground. If you've got 5V, then check for a clock waveform at pin 6 (?) of the Z80 CPU. I assume you've tried tuning the television. The output of a TS1000 is an RF signal, not composite video. I guess it outputs on Channel 3 or 4 in the States - over here it's on UHF channel 36 (as are most other computers) > the back edge connector? Should I try swapping out the CPU? There is > also another 40-PIN chip in there (forgot what it was) and the Sinclair The other 40 pin chip is a custom Sinclair ULA, which is almost impossible to obtain. It's worse than the ROM in that it can't be copied. In theory, the ROM can be replaced by an EPROM, and I believe ZX81 ROM dumps are floating about somewhere... > ROM chip. I don't suppose I could find a replacement for that. Judging There should also be 1 or 2 RAM chips (4118 or 2 off 2114's I think) > from the brittleness of the keyboard connector, my guess is that the poor > guy has been baking in the sun for years. Oh well. Guess I gotta keep > searching. > > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From danjo at xnet.com Mon Apr 14 10:13:48 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:58:15 +0100, Kevan is rumoured to have said: > > > [On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 01:24:34, PEC wrote:] > > > > Is this a generational thing? My first computer exposure what to a > > > > mainframe in the late 70's, but my first computer was an 80's micro. > > > > Are people in the 40+ age group more likely to have fond memories > > > > of minis? > > > > > > I think there will be a strong corrolation here. > > > > Oh come on, guys. I'm not _that_ old :-) (36). > > Sorry Carl. I didn't mean to say you were _really_ old. I made a bad > guess based on the minis and the 'old fart' thing. That'll teach me > to not extrapolate from a small number of data points again! > > Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of > this range? Well, since I kind of started this whole thing 8-) I have been thinking about it. I collect EVERTHING. I AM pre-disposed to computer equipment but as I look back over the deca^H^H^H^Hyears I do see a pattern. Let's see if anyone else lines up with this history 8-) Grade school - got a Philco Entertainment Center - 78 RPM turntable AM Radio [680-1600 kilocycles] and Police Band [1600 - 2500 kilocycles] I ABSOLUTELY remember this radio - had a DC electromagnetic speaker coil that knocked me over the bed and into the wall! Got into B/W photography. Picked up (influenced from above radio) HeathKit 5-Band Shortwave Receiver [an AR-3 - still in the garage - used for getting the REAL WORLD news - as tho the BBC doesn't have an agenda 8-)] In Junior High School - rescued several 78's from the "Break-A-Record" game at a dance. [Including an Edison-Vitaphone of John Phillip Sousa] In High School I got to use the HP Portable Calculator - the one the sise of a couple of suitcases. [But it DID have a handle 8-)] In college, I did run punched cards into a Philco 3000 8-) And also a Xerox Sigma 5. Went into the Service, something about a war somewhere and a draft number of 3 - or something 8-) San Francisco - anybody remember the surplus stores down - I think on Market St. WWII wirerecorders - Surface Search Radars [wish I had one NOW 8-) - tho a SPS-6 Air Search would be nicer!] Really thought hard about building a Scelbi 8008 then opted to build the TVT-1 [Still with me!] Read up on the Mark-8. Then I got into motorcycles and other countries - a long pause - I'm free! I'm free! Back to the REAL WORLD. Worked for awhile in a Machine Shop - Cincinati Acromatic 250 [tubes] and Milacron AC-5 [transistors] and a beautiful old Moog 110? [Paper tape read by air - the air aligned plates to allow hydraulics to move the table] and an ASR-33 [how many of you remember editing paper tape 8-)]. Talked the boss into getting a TRS-80 and a HeathKit Paper tape punch/reader so I could do calculations and not waste tape. [You have already read of my Western Electric PDP-8 trauma 8-)] Moved on to a place called Numeridex [sold paper tape 8-)] and was introduced to the SBC 80/20 from Intel. And the Intelec MDS-800 and the DEC VAX 11/780 and the 11/23 [I have the MDS and the 11/23 8-)] Picked up KIM-1, SYM-1, various terminals, modems, printers and stuff along the way. Built a CPM system with a Megatel Quark-64/100 that had [may soon run again!] 4 8" Tandon 843B drives [still have 8 - don't ask - the Shugarts in the MDS are getting flaky] formatted to 1.6 MB. Well then the PC revolution started. Gee, I think I have one each of them too! Upto what ever they called the 386 processor models. Did a lot of work in the Industrial Control field - Allen-Bradley and Modicon. I got to see a lot of the old stuf - and new stuff. I get most of my stuff for free - or out of the garbage. I keep a lot of books too. I keep a lot of everything. Anybody need an Underground Guide for London [about 1974] 8-) [Yes I got to see some first run Dr. Who] I don;t think age has anything to do with it. It's how you perceive the world. It's going too fast for some of us to let it ALL go by. I wasn't raised to want the newest thing as soon as it shows up. Some people take a little longer to pick that up. If it works - leave it alone. Actually, my CPM systems are *apparently* faster than any of my PC stuff. I mean it only has to load 64KB from a 500Kbs floppy interface 8-) Well enough rambling. BC -- My pen is at the bottom of a page, Which, being finished, here the story ends; 'Tis to be wished it had been sooner done, But stories somehow lengthen when begun. -- Byron From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Apr 14 10:29:08 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Well, today was a rather good day out at the swap meet, my first > excursion in a couple years. I know that feeling... I've really got to get out more too! <<< snippage >>> > So moving forward, I found someone selling a Macintosh 512K. Cool, I'd > been wanting to add a classic Mac to my collection for some time. But > this one was missing the keyboard and mouse. They only wanted $20 for > it. I tried talking them down but they didn't want to move. Later I > found someone selling a complete Mac+. Now this one I know was hot. At > first they wanted $50 but I talked them down to $15 (I used the "It's all > the money I have right now" ruse, except in this case it was true). I > really wanted to get the other Mac, because it was closer to the original > Macintosh, but this one was more complete, so I got it instead. > > Now, I don't want to disparage the fine folks of Oakland, California, but > as I said before, I'm most positive this system was hot. They were too > willing to dump off a perfectly good Macintosh (at least I think its > perfectly good, haven't tested it yet) for too little money. Later on > when I was going through the software I got with it I found some BMUG > disks (BMUG = BayArea Macintosh User's Group). So I'll be contacting BMUG > to see if any of their members "lost" a macintosh within the last couple > months, and if I find a match I'll sell it back to them for what I paid. > (I'm such a nice guy, eh!?) Well... as I was not there I can only venture a long-distance opinion, but I've had almost no problem finding Mac Plus' in the $20 ~ $40 range. And SE's for that matter for not much more. ($40 ~ $80) Around here, they seem to have little value as they are not color, not well supported (seems almost all recent software wants an '040 or above), and not nearly old enough to be unique/collectable (like a '128 or '512). So far, I've found it a lot more difficult to put the nab on a Mac 128 than just about anything else. But, just my take on it... > Not bad. And I'm still under my budget of $100 per month for classic > computer collecting (I just implemented that budget, but I think it may > be too high. Ooh! Self control!! (I need some!!!) B^} > I tend to get carried away when collecting old computer > stuff and, if left unchecked, would buy everything I came across. As it > is I just may go back for that Mac512K.) Gopher it! ...and if you feel guilty later, I'm sure there are people out here who will help! > Now I just need to keep my new booty hidden from my fiance. Oops... bad precident! Best to introduce them early on than risk an unplanned discovery later! > What do you all think? Think I just answered that one... B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Mon Apr 14 14:32:28 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3355863c.2313056@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:27:26 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of >this range? > >--pec >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > I'm outside that range, and I am serious! _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan at 10:23 a.m. on April 13th!!! (7lbs. 2oz., 19", lots of dark hair, and HEALTHY!) From COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU Mon Apr 14 14:52:25 1997 From: COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU (Benjamin M Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers Message-ID: <01IHP6YVWDDU8Y6DM3@AC.GRIN.EDU> > >Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of=20 > >this range? > > > >--pec > >------------------------------------------------------------------------= > -- > > > I'm outside that range, and I am serious! > _______________ > > Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com > Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, > Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan at 10:23 a.m. on April 13th!!! > (7lbs. 2oz., 19", lots of dark hair, and HEALTHY!) I've been watching that .sig for a while now. Congratulations! On topic: Well, I'm outside of that range too, but on the other end. -- Ben Coakley coakley@ac.grin.edu 530 User anonymous access denied. http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley/classic for my classic game page! From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 14 17:14:21 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes Message-ID: <199704142214.QAA26464@calico.litterbox.com> When I first broached the idea of making my palmtop talk to a PC JR keyboard, someone on this list mentioned they knew where to find the keyboard codes the Peanut keyboard generates. Since I've had no luck finding this data in web searches, could that someone please let me know where to find this info? -Jim -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri Apr 11 22:42:54 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sam, The transformer with my TS-1000 shows an input (to the computer) of 9.75V DC. Both my TS-1000 and Sinclair ZX-81 seem to be picky about TV's and the shielding of the cable. As for identifying marks, from your previous post, the only thing my TS-1000 has on it is the FCC ID# CEC8E4TS1000R1. Otherwise, there's no mention of the number you mentioned...just the sticker on the top 'Timex-Sinclair 1000'. The box and such doesn't give any indications to other identifiers either. Hope this is of some help. Jeff Jeffh@eleventh.com P.S. the Aquarius went out to you today UPS -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kayro 2X, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri Apr 11 23:29:36 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 14-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >When I first broached the idea of making my palmtop talk to a PC JR keyboard, >someone on this list mentioned they knew where to find the keyboard codes the >Peanut keyboard generates. Since I've had no luck finding this data in web >searches, could that someone please let me know where to find this info? Jim, What are you referring to as a 'peanut' keyboard? The only PC Jr. keyboard I've seen in use, and I have one here though no PC Jr., is the one that has the two IR leds on the rear, an RJ-11 type jack, and a space for 4 'AA' batteries. How many different keyboard types were there for the Jr.? Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kayro 2X, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 14 18:19:12 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes In-Reply-To: from "hellige" at Apr 12, 97 09:29:36 am Message-ID: <199704142319.RAA26758@calico.litterbox.com> That's the one I have. Peanut was the nickname for the PC Jr. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 14 19:47:32 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes In-Reply-To: from "hellige" at Apr 12, 97 09:29:36 am Message-ID: <199704150047.UAA23296@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great hellige once stated: > > On 14-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > > >When I first broached the idea of making my palmtop talk to a PC JR keyboard, > >someone on this list mentioned they knew where to find the keyboard codes the > >Peanut keyboard generates. Since I've had no luck finding this data in web > >searches, could that someone please let me know where to find this info? > > Jim, > > What are you referring to as a 'peanut' keyboard? The only PC Jr. keyboard > I've seen in use, and I have one here though no PC Jr., is the one that has > the two IR leds on the rear, an RJ-11 type jack, and a space for 4 'AA' > batteries. How many different keyboard types were there for the Jr.? > There are two types. The original "chicklet" style, with square keys with enough space between keys for an overlay to fit over the entire keyboard (with the two IR leds, the RJ-11 type jack and space for 4 'AA' batteries) and the second one, which looks more like a normal keyboard (with the aformentioned items). The "Chicklet" style keyboard (my friend had a PCjr with one) are very rare, as IBM quickly realized its mistake in actually making that type of keyboard (and was one of the worse keyboards (for touch typists) ever made by IBM) and came out with the new style keyboards. -spc (Has PCjr at home) From marcw at lightside.com Mon Apr 14 17:42:29 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes Message-ID: <199704150120.SAA19048@covina.lightside.com> > When I first broached the idea of making my palmtop talk to a PC JR keyboard, > someone on this list mentioned they knew where to find the keyboard codes the > Peanut keyboard generates. Since I've had no luck finding this data in web > searches, could that someone please let me know where to find this info? > > -Jim > -- I've got a program that comes with NCSA Telnet called SCANCHEK so one can check the scan codes of their keyboard. I've had to use it a few times to get some programs to recognize my Tandy 1000's F11 & F12 keys which are different from IBM's. If you don't find the info I can send it to you or you can download all of NCSA Telnet from SimTel. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com (finger at: marcw@mail.lightside.com) marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 14 21:09:02 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes In-Reply-To: <199704142214.QAA26464@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim" at Apr 14, 97 04:14:21 pm Message-ID: <199704150209.WAA23418@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Jim once stated: > > When I first broached the idea of making my palmtop talk to a PC JR keyboard, > someone on this list mentioned they knew where to find the keyboard codes the > Peanut keyboard generates. Since I've had no luck finding this data in web > searches, could that someone please let me know where to find this info? > I have the IBM PCjr Technical Reference Manual here (at home). Here's the relevent data from it (only the more important stuff): INFRA-RED RECEIVER ... Functional Description ... During keyboard operation, the emitted light is modulated, transmitted, and received in the following sequence: 1. A key is pushed. 2. The data stream is sent using the infra-red emitting diodes 3. The receiver amplifies and processes the signal. 4. The demodulated signal is sent to the system board. The signal received consists of an infra-red-light transmission modulated at 40 kHz. Application Notes The Infra-Red Receiver Board can serve as a general-purpose infra-red-receiver, however, the demodulator timings are tailored to the needs of the system. Programming Considerations The serially-encoded word is software de-serialized by the 8088 processor on the system unit. The leading edge of the start bit will generate a non-maskable interrupt (NMI). Once the processor enters the NMI routine to handle the deserialization, the keyboard-data line is sampled and the processor waits to sample the trailing edge of the start bit. When the trailing edge of the start bit is sampled, the processor will wait for 310 uS and sample the first half of the first data bit. This delay causes the processor to sample in the nominal center of the first half of the first data bit. The processor then samples the keyboard data every half- bit cell-time. The sampling interval is 220 uS. The processor samples each half-bit-sample 5 times and will determine the logical level of the sample by majority rule. This enables the processor to discrimitate against transient glitches and to filter out noise. The 8088 processor ultilizes one 8255 PPI bit (PORT C BIT 6) and shares one 8253 timer channel (CHANNEL 1) to do the software de-serialization of the keyboard data. ... Infra-Red connector Specifications Pin Signal Input/Output A01 +12V input A02 Ground input A03 Ground-shield input A04 I.R. TEST FREQ. input B01 Ground input B02 +5V input B03 -I.R. TEST FRQ output B04 Ground input IBM PCjr CORDLESS KEYBOARD ... Power is sent to the keyboard and serially-encoded data received by the system unit through the optional cord. When connected, the cord's keyboard connector removes the battery power and the -CABLE CONNECT signal disables the infra-red-receiver circuit. The disabling of the circuit also allows other infrared devices to be used without interfering with the system. The data which is received through the IR link or by the cord, have the same format. ... Transmitter Serially encoded words are transmitted to the system unit using the Infra-Red Link or the cable link. Encoded words are sent to the system unit with odd parity. Both the Infra-Red Link and the cable link use biphase serial-encoding and each is a simplex link. The 80C48 microprocessor does the biphase serial encoding with a bit cell of 440 uS. A biphase logically-encoded 1 is transmitted as logical 1 for the first half of the bit cell time and as a logical 0 for the second half of the bit cell. A bitphase logically-encoded 0 is transmitted as a logical 0 for the first half of the bit cell time and as a logical 1 for the second half of the bit cell. Each logical 1 transmission for the Infra-Red Link consists of a 40 kHz carrier burst at a 50% duty cycle. First bit Start Bit Second bit Data Bit 0 (Least Significant Bit) Third bit Data Bit 1 ... Ninth bit Data bit 7 (Most Significant Bit) Tenth bit Parity Bit Eleventh bit Stop Bit Eleven stop bits are inserted after every scan-code transmission. This is to allow some processor bandwidth between keystrokes to honor other types of interrupts, such as serial and time-of-day. Cable: | biphase 1 | | biphase 0 | ----+ +---------- -----------+ +---------- | | | | +------+ +------+ | Bit cell | | Bit Cell | ->| 220uS|<- | | ->| 220uS|<- ->| 440 uS |<- ->| 440 uS |<- Infra-Red | biphase 1 | | biphase 1 | ----+WW+------------- -----------+WW+--------------------- |WW| 40 kHz |WW| 40 kHz +WW+ @ 50% duty cycle +WW+ @ 50% duty Cycle | | | ->|220uS |<- ->| |<-62.5uS | | ->| |<-| 62.5uS ->| 440uS |<- ->| 440uS | The scancodes the application program receives via INT 16h (or even from INT 09h) are compatible with the original IBM PC 83-key keyboard (to maintain compatibility). The NMI routine decodes the serial stream, then calls INT 48h with the scan code in AL to concert the 62-key code to the 83-key code, which it stores into port 60h, then calls INT 09h. Unfortunately, the tech ref is quite vague on what keys return which scan codes, so you may have to actually play with INT 48h to see the actual codes. The BIOS listing is less than clear 8-) -spc (I would recomend getting IBM Technical Reference Part #6322963) From jeffh at eleventh.com Sat Apr 12 02:54:08 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 14-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > The "Chicklet" style keyboard (my friend had a PCjr with one) are very >rare, as IBM quickly realized its mistake in actually making that type of >keyboard (and was one of the worse keyboards (for touch typists) ever made >by IBM) and came out with the new style keyboards. Thanks for the info. The one I have appears to be the 'chicklet' one. Now I just have to get a PCjr to go along with it! Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kayro 2X, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 14 21:50:30 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes In-Reply-To: <199704150209.WAA23418@armigeron.com> from "Captain Napalm" at Apr 14, 97 10:09:02 pm Message-ID: <199704150250.UAA27716@calico.litterbox.com> Thanks to all who responded to my query about keyboard operations, particularly Captain Napalm, who typed in the whole section from the technical reference guide. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Apr 14 21:48:38 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970414194838.00e06ec8@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:29 AM 4/12/97 +0500, you wrote: > What are you referring to as a 'peanut' keyboard? The only PC Jr. keyboard >I've seen in use, and I have one here though no PC Jr., is the one that has >the two IR leds on the rear, an RJ-11 type jack, and a space for 4 'AA' >batteries. How many different keyboard types were there for the Jr.? As I recall, "peanut" was the project code name for the PCjr. As to keyboards, there were two that I recall. The original 'chiclet' keyboard, and a later (more normal) one in the same form factor. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From davidv at cs.mun.ca Mon Apr 14 21:51:08 1997 From: davidv at cs.mun.ca (David Vincent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: Anyone have any info on the Atari Microbox??? Message-ID: <199704150251.AAA25938@ganymede.cs.mun.ca> I recently came across a picture of a Atari Microbox on a Classic Computing homepage and was wondering if anyone was lucky to come across any of the prototypes in their travels. Any info would be appreciated, Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Vincent davidv@ganymede.cs.mun.ca ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wseehorn at intrstar.net Mon Apr 14 17:18:36 1997 From: wseehorn at intrstar.net (Willard Seehorn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers In-Reply-To: <3355863c.2313056@smtp.ix.netcom.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970414181836.0068be28@intrstar.net> At 07:32 PM 4/14/97 GMT, you wrote: >On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:27:26 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >>Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of >>this range? >> >>--pec >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ I dunno about serious, but I'm _way_ over that age range. As I said to Adam while I was changing his diapers.... Willard Seehorn Whiteville NC USA wseehorn@intrstar.net From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Tue Apr 15 17:54:33 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: Hard-sector floppies Message-ID: <335706ae.7261304@smtp.ix.netcom.com> I have a box (about 250-300) of hard-sector 5?" disks. Anyone interested??? Sell/trade/??? _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan at 10:23 a.m. on April 13th!!! (7lbs. 2oz., 19", lots of dark hair, and HEALTHY!) From mhop at snip.net Wed Apr 16 19:51:45 1997 From: mhop at snip.net (mhop) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:06 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 25 Message-ID: <19970417004858723.AAB202@computer-name> > I have a box (about 250-300) of hard-sector 5=BC" > disks. Anyone interested??? Sell/trade/??? What are "hard-sector" disks? Not the same as a 5.25 floppy? mhop@snip.net From amsentry at microweb.com Wed Apr 16 20:14:27 1997 From: amsentry at microweb.com (John R. Sowden) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 25 Message-ID: <9704170114.AA11835@arachnid.microweb.com> At 20:51 4/16/97 -0400, you wrote: >> I have a box (about 250-300) of hard-sector 5=BC" >> disks. Anyone interested??? Sell/trade/??? > >What are "hard-sector" disks? Not the same as a 5.25 floppy? > mhop@snip.net > > hard sewctore means that there are 13? holde in the disk for the drive led to read to determine where a sector starts. A soft sectore disk hs one hle (like the IBM type disks used today. A popular user of hard sector disks was NorthStar Computers. John ***************************** John R. Sowden ***************************** *American Sentry Systems, Inc. * * 1221 Andersen Drive * * San Rafael, CA 94901 * * Voice (415) 457-2622 * * FAX (415)457-2624 * * amsentry@microweb.com * ***************************** From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Apr 16 21:45:41 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Hard-Sectored 5.25" floppies In-Reply-To: <19970417004858723.AAB202@computer-name> from "mhop" at Apr 16, 97 08:51:45 pm Message-ID: <9704170145.AA09385@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 773 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970416/714233e9/attachment.ksh From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 16 20:57:42 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Hard-sector disks In-Reply-To: <19970417004858723.AAB202@computer-name> References: <19970417004858723.AAB202@computer-name> Message-ID: <3357830e.1846139@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:51:45 -0400, you wrote: >> I have a box (about 250-300) of hard-sector 5.25" >> disks. Anyone interested??? Sell/trade/??? > >What are "hard-sector" disks? Not the same as a 5.25 floppy? > mhop@snip.net > Soft-sector (common IBM-compatible) disks have only one hole. (Called the index hole?) Hard-sector disks have multiple holes which define where the sectors will be. The disks I have, close to 350 of them actually, are 16-sector disks which have a total of 17 holes. Not at all suitable for IBM-compatible usage but I understand Commodore 64 and possibly other systems ignore the holes. Somebody must have a use for these, they are bulk-packed in packs of 50 each. I bought them at auction, thinking I had a good deal but not thinking enough. I would prefer that someone with a system which requires 16-sector disks get them. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan at 10:23 a.m. on April 13th!!! (7lbs. 2oz., 19", lots of dark hair, and HEALTHY!) From wbrco at valuenet.net Wed Apr 16 21:21:59 1997 From: wbrco at valuenet.net (Allen Underdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 25 References: <19970417004858723.AAB202@computer-name> Message-ID: <33558947.31B8@valuenet.net> mhop wrote: > > > I have a box (about 250-300) of hard-sector 5=BC" > > disks. Anyone interested??? Sell/trade/??? > > What are "hard-sector" disks? Not the same as a 5.25 floppy? > mhop@snip.net You can always tell the youngsters...... Hard/soft sectoring - In the olden days of magnetic floppy media, there was a sector hole FOR EVERY SECTOR located around the hub of the floppy. Now adays, there is only one, and the computer keeps track of where it's at (sector wise) by watching the data (i.e. soft sectoring). If you rotate a regular 5.25 floppy in the sleeve now, you will only count 1 hole. I can't remember how many sectors per track were on the hard sector floppies (12 jumps to mind) but you would find that many holes per revolution. Goes back to that track/cylinder concept. God I love reading this list! -- | Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | | Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | | homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | | Try My BBS at 314.939.9445! | From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Wed Apr 16 21:29:25 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring Message-ID: <199704170229.WAA00258@zephyr.cacm.org> On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:23:30 -0400, this arrived on the list from the esteemed Mr. Allen Underdown: > In the olden days of magnetic floppy media, there was a sector hole > FOR EVERY SECTOR located around the hub of the floppy. All very well and good, but there's that one extra you forgot about. ;-) Yes, hard-sectored disks _do_ have a hole to denote the beginning of each sector, but to indicate the beginning of a _track_ they use two adjacent holes. In soft-sectored disks, the single hole serves to signal the beginning-of-track; the individual sectors are defined via headers recorded during the format operation. > God I love reading this list! With all due respects to Mr. Mel Brooks: "Ditto!" ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From danjo at xnet.com Wed Apr 16 22:20:50 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: <199704170229.WAA00258@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, this arrived on the list from the esteemed Mr. Carl R. Friend: > On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:23:30 -0400, this arrived on the list from > the esteemed Mr. Allen Underdown: > > In the olden days of magnetic floppy media, there was a sector hole > > FOR EVERY SECTOR located around the hub of the floppy. > > All very well and good, but there's that one extra you forgot > about. ;-) All very well and good, but there's that one extra you forgot about. ;-) 8-) > Yes, hard-sectored disks _do_ have a hole to denote the beginning > of each sector, but to indicate the beginning of a _track_ they use > two adjacent holes. In soft-sectored disks, the single hole serves > to signal the beginning-of-track; the individual sectors are defined > via headers recorded during the format operation. And one in the middle! > > God I love reading this list! > > With all due respects to Mr. Mel Brooks: "Ditto!" With all due respects to Mel Brooks and Mr. Carl R. Friend and Rush Limbaugh: "Ditto! Mega-Ditto" BC From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Apr 17 00:28:23 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jesus, with all those holes, it is a wonder they fit ANY data on them at all! Les From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed Apr 16 01:02:14 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP vintage folk References: <199704150702.AAA13216@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33546B66.2074@goldrush.com> >>Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of >>this range? Seriously? Your regular poster, Larry Anderson, was originally looked upon with suspician because he had an Amiga in addition to his C=64's and PET's. Time proved his sincere appreciation of classic models. HE's in his 30's, my age can't be taken seriously. Diane Hare/MS.HARE San Andreas, CA snotmyfault -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From gram at cnct.com Thu Apr 17 08:32:21 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Hard-sector disks In-Reply-To: <3357830e.1846139@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > Soft-sector (common IBM-compatible) disks have only one hole. > (Called the index hole?) Hard-sector disks have multiple holes > which define where the sectors will be. The disks I have, close to 350 > of them actually, are 16-sector disks which have a total of 17 holes. > Not at all suitable for IBM-compatible usage but I understand > Commodore 64 and possibly other systems ignore the holes. The systems best known for ignoring ALL holes in floppies are the original Apples and their descendants. Woz apparently couldn't afford a real controller, so he did it all in software. The Apples read the whole track and determine what's on it from memory. Naturally this made the Apple disk subsystem the slowest thing possible until the geniuses at Commodore outdid them by using a serial disk interface. (And people complained about the TRS-80 cassette system -- well, it's the only one that had a cassette system reliable enough to put off upgrading to disk, so people had _time_ to complain.) -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From prp at ichips.intel.com Thu Apr 17 09:49:38 1997 From: prp at ichips.intel.com (Paul Pierce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: [Fwd: old computer "junk"] Message-ID: <33563882.125B@ichips.intel.com> Here is an unfortunate opportunity - maybe someone here can help. Paul Pierce -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Cynthia Croxton Subject: old computer "junk" Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:16:14 -0700 Size: 1856 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970417/e29b1e1e/attachment.mht From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu Apr 17 19:48:31 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Regular Posting: FAQ Message-ID: ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.2 Last Update: 4/16/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ has jumped 2 updates because I've been lazy about posting it. Part 5.4 is new Sections 6-9 are new. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- About ClassicCmp ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. About the List ----------------- 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? 1.3 What's a Classic Computer? 1.4 Who runs this thing? 1.5 Don't you know you're duplicating what others have done? 2. Protocol and Etiquette ------------------------- 2.1 What can I talk about? 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? 2.3 Can I talk about Mini/MainFrames? 2.4 Can I post advertisements? 2.5 Can I ask people to give me their computers? 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x? 2.7 Where should I look before posting a dumb question? 3. Misc List Information ------------------------ 3.1 How many subscribers are there? 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? 4. ClassicCmp Resources on the Net ---------------------------------- 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a Web Site? 4.2 How come the Web Site is so ugly? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collecting ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5.1 Where can I find Classic Computers? 5.2 How much is machine x worth? 5.3 Will thousands of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? 5.4 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hardware and Media ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6.1 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? 7. Media -------- 7.1 What's a hard sector disk? What's a soft sector disk? 7.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. 7.3 Can these formats be interchanged? 7.4 What disk sizes are there? 7.5 How do I take care of old media? 8. Component Failure Issues --------------------------- 8.1 Do EPROM's go bad? 8.2 How about ROM's, other chips? 8.3 How about capacitors? 8.4 Anything else? 8.5 So how do I backup all this stuff like you suggest? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Software ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9.1 Where can I get a system disk for platform X? 9.2 What's the best way to back up my software? ============================================================================= 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection (just hoarding), restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them. 1.3 What is a Classic Computer? Any computer that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic. This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to work OK, so I've kept it. 1.4 Who runs this thing? That would be me, Bill Whitson. I run this thing when I'm not busy being a network admin at the University of Washington, SCUBA diving, playing drums in punk rock bands, or drinking heavily. Oh yeah, I'm a 22 year old, unmarried, childless, white, male living in the state of Washington in the US. People ask you the strangest things when you run a listproc... 1.5 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done. Damn straight. That's what the internet's all about. OK, guess I have to update this too - I get a "reinventing the wheel" e-mail at least once a week. If you show me another group of computer collectors that claims a membership as large as this one I'll show you a group that must be very hard to find. Obviously there are other groups of collectors and I'm cheering them on - I don't see a problem with duplicating and reduplicating lore that's quickly disappearing anyway. 2.1 What can I talk about? Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might want to check facts before you start shooting off messages (if you're easily embarrassed). 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then be aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC newsgroups. 2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames? There has apparently been some misconception that this is a list for micros only. You'll note I said "misconception". 2.4 Can I post advertisements? Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course, use your brain - don't spam. 2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers? Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example, would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on usenet who will vouch for this. See section 5 for info on how to find your- self a computer. 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x. Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic electronics tools (DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). I'm no whiz with this stuff and the little knowledge I have has come from asking questions and then buying books to find out what "Simple... Just check the voltage on the caps in the PS to make sure one of them isn't flaking out!" exactly means. 2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question? It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below). 3.1 How many subscribers are there? Around 230, fluxing daily. 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? Don't bother asking me. If you really want to know go ahead and post to the list. I really don't know what having a number will do for you... 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a web site? Yep. http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html 4.2 How come the web site is so ugly? How come a PET is so ugly? Who cares as long as it works? 5.1 Where can I find classic computers? The best places seem to be thrift stores and swap meets. These are closely followed by pawn shops and mom and pop computer stores. The holy grails are electronics scrap yards - but they tend to be wary of individual pick-and-choosers. Oh yeah - garage sales! 5.2 How much is machine x worth? Precisely as much as you'll pay for it. Oh, you're selling it? Then, precisely as much as I'll pay for it. Seriously, no one prices these any more. I have an old Computer Blue Book that lists many classic computers but the prices are just ridiculous. Some machines (Apple Lisa's, old old Mini's, and unreleased prototypes) are starting down the road toward their original selling prices. 5.3 Will 1000's of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? Yes. This is the impetus behind every collector's tireless and selfless effort. Each machine we fail to save has it's gold parts mercilessly hacked off and sold (just like rhino horns - and look at the rhinos). The remainder is then sent to China to be made into bicycle spokes (you probably think I'm joking). Save a computer! Act now! Remind your wife of the rhino and cuter, furrier animals. It might work. In all seriousness - there are a large (and growing) number of so called "computer and electronics 'recyclers'" who take usable computers and recycle them into "reusable scrap". Small amounts of gold, silver, and platinum are extracted and the remainder of the material is generally just marketed to less wasteful countries. 5.4 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? Don't power it up yet! All of the following should probably be done before that power switch gets flipped. Open the case - clean and visually inspect components. You're looking for traces of smoke, water, corrosion, loose screws, blown caps and resistors, etc. You can avoid a number of problems just by taking a peek inside. If you have the tools (and the machine is sufficiently rare) pull and dump backups of all EPROMs, ROMs, and PALs. Disconnect the power supply from the rest of the computer and start it up on a "dummy load". A six volt headlight bulb has been recommended as a convenient load. These should be available from any decent Volkswagen shop. Hopefully this will prevent frying the rest of the machine with a flaky power supply. You may want to check the voltage output before you do this as it could be no where near the 5V average in micros. Even if you don't want to connect a load it's still probably a good idea to power it up separately from the computer for the first time. If you have a really rare beast it may be worth powering up some of the key capacitors out of circuit just to get them warmed up. Now you can power it up. Assuming it works, take a blank disk, format it, write some data to it, and read it back before using your precious software with it, as a bad disk drive could really ruin your day. 6.1 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? Cases: It seems best to start gently with such old equipment. Try soaking in a little water and dish soap and then scrubbing. This takes care of most jobs. For removing stickers try mineral oil or Goo-Gone (available at most hardware stores - in the US at least). If those don't work, acetone can be good but, if overused, can do more harm. For removing marker, almost any solvent is good (alcohol, naptha, etc) but will definitely discolor or dissolve plastic if not carefully applied. Lava soap is also good for removing marker but can smooth off textured plastic. For removing sun or tobacco discoloring a product called Purple Stuff available from auto parts stores (again, in the US at least) seems to do the job almost effortlessly. Connectors: For edge connectors a plain pink eraser seems good for removing corrosion. Make sure to wipe the connectors with a clean cloth after erasing on them though. There are a large number chemicals on the market that "magically" remove corrosion from comp- onents but I'm not anxious to promote any of them. For pin style connectors a toothbrush and some softscrub or other mildly abrasive cleaner do wonders. Keyboards: I find a cycle through the dishwasher does a really nice job on keyboards. Just be sure they're completely dry before you put any power to them. 7.1 What's a hard sectored disk? What's a soft sectored disk? We'll start with soft-sector since they're simpler to explain. On a soft-sector floppy disk the information that marks where a sector begins and ends is written to the disk by the computer (part of the formatting process). This means that various computers can use the same floppy disk types because the format of the disk is control- led by the operating system. Hard sector disks use a system of perforations in the media to mark the beginnings and ends of sectors. This means that computers which used hard sectored disks required the exact disk type they specified rather than a generic soft-sector floppy. A number of differently sectored disks were available - at least 10, 13, and 16 sector formats. 8 inch and 5.25 inch disks commonly used hard sectoring. To my knowledge it was never used with 3.5 inch disks. 7.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. These all refer to the number of useable sides on a disk and it's density (how "efficiently" the magnetic bits are pushed together). SS/SD is a Single Sided - Single Density disk, the earliest available type I believe. The storage afforded by a single density disk was very small compared to today's standards. Single Sided disks were popular because they were cheaper than DS and could be easily modified with a hole punch into double sided disks. SD was followed by Double Density which, amazingly, doubled the amount of storage space. Double Density was followed by the extremely short-lived Quad Density which doubled a DD disk. QD was short lived because High Density was right on it's heels and nearly doubled disk capacity again. DS/HD was as sophisticated as 5.25" disks became. 3.5" disks have progressed as far as DS/EHD double-sided / extra-high density. 7.3 Can these formats be interchanged? Well, that may depend on what computer you are using, but in general the following substitutions may be made: Desired Format Substitute --------------------------------------------------- Single Density Double Density Double Density none reliably Quad Density High Density High Density none Other substitutions may be made, but due to physical differences in how the disks are made they are generally unreliable. It can almost be guaranteed that data written to a proper density disk of poor quality will last longer than data written to a good quality disk of the wrong density. 7.4 What disk sizes are there? Physically? There are 8 inch, 5.25 inch, and 3.5 inch as "standard" disks. There are also some unique and/or short-lived sizes such as 3 inch disks used by Amstrad and 2 inch disks which were pioneered for use in laptops and then quickly forgotten. 7.5 How do I take care of old media? Step one is Back It Up! After that, make sure it's kept in a clean, dry, temperature-controlled environment (I keep mine in a broken freezer). With disks it seems important to keep them standing on end rather than lying flat - the same goes for cassette tapes. I like to exercise disks and tapes at least once every six months although I have no real evidence that this has any positive effect. I have modified an old C64 floppy drive to simply spin when a disk is inserted and send large stacks of disks through it on a regular basis just to make sure they're not starting to stick up internally. An exciting and somewhat recent development is that availability of classic computer emulators that can make disk images of old media on PC's and Macs. This seems to be a very good way to backup disks since they will eventually go bad no matter how well we take care of them. The official line seems to be that floppy disks have a shelf-life of approximately 10 years. With proper care many are lasting a lot longer. 8.1 Do EPROM's go bad? Definitely. They apparently are considered to reliably contain data for (on the outside edge) 15 years. This amount can be considerably reduced if, for example, the sticker over the window has dried out and fallen off. Luckily EPROMs were not used too extensively but they're out there. An EPROM writer/reader is a relatively cheap investment and an easy fix. Even if an EPROM has "forgotten" it's data it is still fine for being "re-educated". 8.2 How about ROMs and other chips? Things wear out. It's likely that even components which have not been fried by catastrophic failure will simply start to die someday. ROMs can be dumped to a file and re-written if they die. Other custom chips which are all too common in micros will be far more difficult to replace. The best advice is to stockpile these chips when you can - but someday even unused chips will probably start to turn up bad. In this case the best defense is to stockpile information in the hope of being able to modify an existing component to meet your needs. 8.3 How about capacitors? This seems to be another large concern, but rather than being an unreplaceable component a capacitor will take your unreplaceable components with it when it goes. It's a good idea to check out all the caps in a system if you haven't fired it up in a while. Caps go bad with time (even tantalum caps, apparently - although they are more reliable) and should be replaced if they are suspect. It's unlikely that it will be impossible to find a replacement capacitor as they are much more standard electronic components. 8.4 Anything else? Documentation: If there's anything which is entirely unreplaceable its the docs for uncommon equipment. Once they're gone, they're gone. I regularly pick up docs I find for equipment I don't have just because I may someday. Paper will, of course. go bad over time but it will be obvious and they will be easily duplicated. Hard Disks: ST-251s, ST-502s, MFM, RLL... old hard disks are going to go bad. Then they'll be gone. Theoretically, I suppose it's possible to crack a hard drive and replace a dead bearing, realign, relaminate, etc... but I've never heard of anyone doing these things in their base- ment. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years many of us will be experts at this. 8.5 So, how do I back up all this stuff like you suggest? This answer will undoubtedly get longer as I learn more. The best ways seem to be to dump the particular ROM (or whatever) using the approp- riate equipment to a floppy disk (which most of this equipment allows). From BigLouS at aol.com Thu Apr 17 21:17:31 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers Message-ID: <970417221700_572297337@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-14 22:27:40 EDT, you write: > > >Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of=20 > > >this range? > > I'm seriously outside of =20. more like =20 +25(next week). Lou From wbrco at valuenet.net Thu Apr 17 21:57:29 1997 From: wbrco at valuenet.net (Allen Underdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring References: Message-ID: <3356E318.1F62@valuenet.net> Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > Jesus, with all those holes, it is a wonder they fit ANY > data on them at all! > > Les Well, when your operating system is a whopping 4Kb, and the Basic Interpiter was 12K, you didn't need much. It wasn't that you wrote in assembler because it was faster, but it was the only... I stand humble to those who corrected me.. -- | Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | | Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | | homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | | Try My BBS at 314.939.9445! | From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Apr 17 23:02:43 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: <3356E318.1F62@valuenet.net> from "Allen Underdown" at Apr 17, 97 09:57:29 pm Message-ID: <9704180302.AA13118@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970417/a9a93aad/attachment.ksh From danjo at xnet.com Thu Apr 17 22:29:35 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: <9704180302.AA13118@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Well, when your operating system is a whopping 4Kb, and > > the Basic Interpiter was 12K, you didn't need much. > > > > It wasn't that you wrote in assembler because it was > > faster, but it was the only... > > What - you had an assembler? I have to toggle in ones and > zeroes. Before that we didn't even have zeroes and I had > to use the letter 'O'. WOW 1's and O's - you where lucky! I had to use l's and O's. Of course I cheated and wrote out all my code long hand - that was when I was back in Egypt. I am sure you've seen some of my code 8-) > Tim. (selling his last of seven IMSAI's to a museum next week...) BC (starting to wonder what his old copy of IMSAI Fortran 70 is worth) From idavis at comland.com Fri Apr 18 00:05:25 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Generations and Hard/Soft sectoring Message-ID: <199704180510.AAA15244@ds9.comland.com> >WOW 1's and O's - you where lucky! I had to use l's and O's. >Of course I cheated and wrote out all my code long hand - that was when >I was back in Egypt. I am sure you've seen some of my code 8-) > You had 1's AND 0's? Back in my day, we only had 0's, and we liked it. I tried to get my parents to buy me some 1's, but they were just too much. Actually, I am 28, and learned to program in basic. I am just now taking the time to learn assembler on my atari 800. I have wanted to learn for the last 14 years, but I think that some of the latter experience that I have gotten has made it to where I think I can tackle assembly language. In the "old fart" category, I just helped my next door neighbor get his first computer, a classic of course, and he is in his early 60's. He's pretty excited, and so am I. While we are on the subject of disks, I got a bag of 5 1/4" disks from a friend, and they are mostly DSHD. I have been able to format most of them, but there are a select few that my Atari SSSD drive will not format. Do you think that I could format them with a different machine, or pass them under a magnet and get them to where my atari could format them? I hate to throw them away, and I'm not that technical when it comes to magnetic properties and such. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Apr 18 01:18:53 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Double-density floppy availability In-Reply-To: <199704180510.AAA15244@ds9.comland.com> from "Isaac Davis" at Apr 18, 97 00:05:25 am Message-ID: <9704180518.AA15783@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 614 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970417/51b3239a/attachment.ksh From dastar at crl.com Fri Apr 18 01:01:54 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: <9704180302.AA13118@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > What - you had an assembler? I have to toggle in ones and > zeroes. Before that we didn't even have zeroes and I had > to use the letter 'O'. I have that Dilbert clipped and tucked away somehwere. That one is an all-time favorite. > Tim. (selling his last of seven IMSAI's to a museum next week...) Ah, IMSAIs. And seven of them! I hope to someday find one of these. It is one of the classic microcomputer/mini's. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Fri Apr 18 01:07:57 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: I have an Atari 2600 carthridge question: I bought a couple at a swap meet that don't "boot" up. When I turn the unit on the screen either is black or has random vertical color bars on the screen. They are both Activision games. Any suggestions? I tried opening them but can't without ruining the label. I guess a working cart is worth more than a ruined label, but I'm hoping there's a better way if there is some way to fix them. Hey, let's have a contest. Let's see who can score the best lot of classic computers this weekend. We can score each other based on the type and age of the computers/software/accessories we got, then tally up the points and whoever has the highest score gets a pat on the back. The point to such a silly game is that it will promote the preservation of old computers. It will get us out there finding these lost souls and keeping them safe for future generations. And believe me, there's nothing more gratifying then a good weekend out hunting for good old computers! (Well, there are at least a few things more gratifying :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From starling at umr.edu Fri Apr 18 03:26:57 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa...? In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at Apr 17, 97 05:48:31 pm Message-ID: <199704180826.DAA18097@saucer.cc.umr.edu> I will soon be aquiring an Apple Lisa... whee! So in the mean time, I'm trying to find out as much info about them as I can. There are several greal Lisa web sites, but I still have some unanswered questions. - Does anyone here own one? - Anyone know of any Lisa-specific mailing lists? - Has the copy protection on original system disks and program disks ever been cracked? (for those that don't know, the first time an original disk is used in a Lisa, it apparantly stamps the disk with its serial number, preventing other Lisae from using it). - Are there any other "workshops" other than Pascal Workshop, Cobol Workshop, and BASIC Workshop? A nice C Workshop would be handy, but the language hadn't really fallen into general use by micro users at that time. - Was any 3rd party software ever released for the Lisa? - Why did Apple decide NOT to put memory protection & preemptive multitasking in the Mac when the Lisa had it? I guess that's enough for now... :) If there actually are any Lisa owners out there, I'll probably have plenty of questions for you once I get the thing two weeks from now. Luckily, it comes with a complete Office 7/7 setup & a Profile drive, so the copy protection isn't a problem. chris From David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov Fri Apr 18 07:46:08 1997 From: David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov (David_A._Vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers Message-ID: <9703188613.AA861373068@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> >I'm seriously outside of =20. more like =20 +25(next week). Me too. I'll hit 43 in June. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From gram at cnct.com Fri Apr 18 07:50:05 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Tim. (selling his last of seven IMSAI's to a museum next week...) > > Ah, IMSAIs. And seven of them! I hope to someday find one of these. It > is one of the classic microcomputer/mini's. So what happened to the first six? Wouldn't mind one myself. Back when they were available, an enlisted man's pay wouldn't qualify me for the loan to get one from the local Byte Shop. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Fri Apr 18 07:53:58 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Hey, let's have a contest. Let's see who can score the best lot of > classic computers this weekend. We can score each other based on the > type and age of the computers/software/accessories we got, then tally up > the points and whoever has the highest score gets a pat on the back. The > point to such a silly game is that it will promote the preservation of > old computers. It will get us out there finding these lost souls and > keeping them safe for future generations. And believe me, there's > nothing more gratifying then a good weekend out hunting for good old > computers! (Well, there are at least a few things more gratifying :) Sorry, can't participate this weekend. I'm saving all of my money till _next_ weekend at the Trenton Computer Festival swap meet. Even then I'll have to restrain myself a bit or I won't be able to afford to rent the U-Haul. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Fri Apr 18 08:16:55 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring Message-ID: <199704181316.AA14983@bs014.swec.com> On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:02:43 -0800, Mr Shoppa graced us with these words of wisdom: > What - you had an assembler? I have to toggle in ones and > zeroes. Before that we didn't even have zeroes and I had > to use the letter 'O'. Ah, good lad! I understand that in some parts of the world the use of the numeral "0" (zero) is still regarded as heresy. You may have saved your life that way. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From idavis at comland.com Fri Apr 18 09:14:22 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Double-density floppy availability Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970418141422.008ece98@mail.comland.com > At 10:18 PM 4/17/97 -0800, you wrote: >> While we are on the subject of disks, I got a bag of 5 1/4" disks from a >> friend, and they are mostly DSHD. I have been able to format most of them, >> but there are a select few that my Atari SSSD drive will not format. > >Yeah, well, I wouldn't trust the HD ones you did manage to format. >It just isn't worth the risk when double-density floppies are >still readily available. > >Are people finding it hard to get double-density floppies? I have >access to several thousand new-sealed-in-boxes up here. If you've >been unable to find any, let me know and I'll ship ship out some >boxes. > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > > I will try to find some locally. I definitely don't need more than a couple hundred, if that many. I have some old work of mine that I would hate to loose. I have had these disks since the early 80's, and they all seem to be in perfect condition, but you never know when they will go bad. Anyone have any suggestions, of places to go to get boxed SD or DD floppies in bulk? I will start looking around, and if I find a place, I will post it. Thanks for the advice about the HD floppies being different than DD or SD. I will definitely reserve those for scratch disks. That was exactly the answer I was looking for. Thanks for the help. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From transit at primenet.com Fri Apr 18 09:50:44 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Disks (was: Re: Generations and Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: <199704180510.AAA15244@ds9.comland.com> Message-ID: > > While we are on the subject of disks, I got a bag of 5 1/4" disks from a > friend, and they are mostly DSHD. I have been able to format most of them, > but there are a select few that my Atari SSSD drive will not format. Do you > think that I could format them with a different machine, or pass them under > a magnet and get them to where my atari could format them? I hate to throw > them away, and I'm not that technical when it comes to magnetic properties > and such. Generally, I've found that the High Density disks are all but unusable in these older computers/disk drives. . .found that out the hard way when I bought a C128 with a 1751 disk drive, and tried to format some HD disks . ..for a while I thought the disk drive was broken! From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Apr 18 11:27:27 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa...? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20492EC50@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | - Has the copy protection on original system disks and program disks ever | been cracked? (for those that don't know, the first time an original | disk is used in a Lisa, it apparantly stamps the disk with its serial | number, preventing other Lisae from using it). You need to find someone with an un-installed set of Lisa diskettes and copy them with an Option Board. Kai From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Apr 18 11:31:43 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20492EC54@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | What - you had an assembler? I have to toggle in ones and | zeroes. Before that we didn't even have zeroes and I had | to use the letter 'O'. Y'know, that's not far from the truth. I was looking at some of my old Teletype listings the other day and realized it had a line through the O instead of through the 0, therefore it really did look like we were using O's for zeroes! | Tim. (selling his last of seven IMSAI's to a museum next week...) Whew, I guess I just got under the wire there! See ya Sunday... Kai From dastar at crl.com Fri Apr 18 13:19:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa...? In-Reply-To: <199704180826.DAA18097@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Starling wrote: > > I will soon be aquiring an Apple Lisa... whee! Congratulations. Is it the original Lisa, the Lisa2 or the Lisa XL? > So in the mean time, I'm trying to find out as much info about them as I > can. There are several greal Lisa web sites, but I still have some > unanswered questions. > > - Does anyone here own one? Yes. But as for the rest of your questions, I don't know. I've booted mine several times but I think the HD is crashed and I only have one boot-up disk that doesn't do anything. Other than that, I know next to nothing about the Lisa. Someday when I have 25 hours in a day, I'll finally be able to sit down and play with it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From starling at umr.edu Fri Apr 18 14:20:37 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa...? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 18, 97 11:19:37 am Message-ID: <199704181920.OAA15112@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > Congratulations. Is it the original Lisa, the Lisa2 or the Lisa XL? It's a Lisa 2. As I understand it, Lisa 1s are near-impossible to find and Mac XLs (Lisa XLs) aren't all that common either. Heh. ANY Lisa is a happy little score for me. I haven't gotten a new machine in a couple MONTHS now. (never let school get in the way of your fun) > But as for the rest of your questions, I don't know. I've booted mine > several times but I think the HD is crashed and I only have one boot-up > disk that doesn't do anything. Other than that, I know next to nothing > about the Lisa. Someday when I have 25 hours in a day, I'll finally be > able to sit down and play with it. Yeah... I'm hoping to have some time this summer to play with my new toy. I went through a bit of trouble (but not too much expense) to aquire the system, so it's pretty important to me. It's going to get the desk that is currently home to my beloved (and souped-up) Amiga 500. I'm really really hoping to get my hands on the Pascal Workshop and practice my Pascal skills once again. The Lisa is one of those antiques micros that's still quite usable for doing stuff (like a C64 or a tricked-out CoCo) and I plan to put the machine to use. *ling From idavis at comland.com Fri Apr 18 16:58:44 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: I wish I lived in MA. Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970418215844.008f4a8c@mail.comland.com > Just browsing through the newsgroup, and if anyone lives in or around Cambridge, MA. Here's a good deal for the weekend. Hope this helps someone. I really wished I lived there. I wonder if I could drive there from Austin, TX and make it in time. Oh well, maybe next time. ======================================================== Subject: Atari 800 System/Software Giveaway at MIT From: remler@ll.mit.edu (Rick Ferranti) Date: 1997/04/18 Message-Id: Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.8bit I have a complete Atari 800 system -- the 800 with 48K RAM, 810 disk drive, 1020 printer/plotter, P:R: Connection serial interface, joysticks, paddle controllers, cables, power supplies, and all original documentation. With this system comes many business programs and zillions of games, many still in their original boxes with documentation. Plus many indexed reference articles from the old 8-bit Atari magazines. The system is in excellent, working condition. I'm "selling" the package at the MIT Radio/Computer flea market on Sunday, April 20th, corner of Albany and Main Streets in Cambridge, MA. Doors open at 9:OO a.m. If you can tell me a good story on what you'd use this thing for, it's yours for the taking! Look for a beige '92 Camry. -- Rick ======================================================== With the diversity of people in this maillist, a good story should be pretty easy to come by. If anyone gets it, be sure and let us know "the story". Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From transit at primenet.com Fri Apr 18 19:38:57 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa...? In-Reply-To: <199704181920.OAA15112@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: By the way, how much did a Lisa cost new (back in 1983 or whenever)? I remember a price of about $16,000 . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 18 20:01:24 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Disks (was: Re: Generations and Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > Generally, I've found that the High Density disks are all but unusable in > these older computers/disk drives. . .found that out the hard way when I > bought a C128 with a 1751 disk drive, and tried to format some HD disks . > ..for a while I thought the disk drive was broken! I agree here. I've had exactly the same experience with 3.5" disks and went through the same hell trying to determine exactly what was wrong. But it still defies sense. Surely, if the disk has a higher density, it should be able to be formatted on a lower density drive. What's so different? --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 18 20:08:47 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20492EC54@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: > Y'know, that's not far from the truth. I was looking at some of my old > Teletype listings the other day and realized it had a line through the O > instead of through the 0, therefore it really did look like we were > using O's for zeroes! I have an old inkjet printer, a Canon A-1210. Out of ink of course, and you probably won't find ink cartridges anywhere on this planet. It's a colour job and has some weirdly low resolution (560 pixels horizontally? Don't remember -- NOT 560 pixels per inch, 560 pixels in total). Anyway, this thingy prints the letter O with a slash-like mark crossing the top-right part of the letter, making it look just like a Q flipped around the horizontal. The digit 0 is printed as a normal-looking 'O' (the printer doesn't have enough resolution to print it as a different shape oval, like most dot matrix printers of the same time did). And then there was the TI-99 with its square Os and round zeroes. Strange concept. :-) --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From danjo at xnet.com Fri Apr 18 20:36:32 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Disks (was: Re: Generations and Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > Generally, I've found that the High Density disks are all but unusable in > > these older computers/disk drives. . .found that out the hard way when I > > bought a C128 with a 1751 disk drive, and tried to format some HD disks . > > ..for a while I thought the disk drive was broken! > > I agree here. I've had exactly the same experience with 3.5" disks and > went through the same hell trying to determine exactly what was wrong. > > But it still defies sense. Surely, if the disk has a higher density, it > should be able to be formatted on a lower density drive. What's so > different? Aw come on! Think about it 8-) The media MUST be able to pack bits closer. (Higher density) Even at higher spindle speeds you have to flip the dipoles. You use higher current in the record head to get a bigger signal out of the read head. You do that be using a polished and *harder* (magnetically) medium. The old soft style head can not successfully record and the read head gain is too low the successfully read. BC From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 18 21:23:59 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Disks (was: Re: Generations and Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33582532.34688652@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:01:24 +0100 (BST), you wrote: >On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > >> Generally, I've found that the High Density disks are all but unusable in >> these older computers/disk drives. . .found that out the hard way when I >> bought a C128 with a 1751 disk drive, and tried to format some HD disks . >> ..for a while I thought the disk drive was broken! > > I agree here. I've had exactly the same experience with 3.5" disks and >went through the same hell trying to determine exactly what was wrong. > > But it still defies sense. Surely, if the disk has a higher density, it >should be able to be formatted on a lower density drive. What's so >different? Check the technical specs of floppies; the magnetic characteristics of 5.25" DD versus HD disks are different. They look similar but are very different. 3.5" disks seem to differ only in that extra hole, the specs are almost identical. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan at 10:23 a.m. on April 13th!!! (7lbs. 2oz., 19", lots of dark hair, and HEALTHY!) From dcoward at pressstart.com Fri Apr 18 22:44:13 1997 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (dcoward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: FAQ Message-ID: <199704190344.UAA26944@mx5.u.washington.edu> I was just reading the FAQ and thought that I should add my two cents. 6.1 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? Paper items: About a year ago, I found an Osborne Starter Kit in a thrift store. This is a ring bound manual and some audio cassettes to get a new user started, packaged in a flat cardboard box, the kind with a glossy surface. Well the box had been wrapped many times with that inch and a half clear packaging tape to prevent it from being opened. I knew that if I tried to remove the tape that I would remove most of the surface of the box too. Then I had an idea. I removed the manual and the tapes from the box by cutting the tape around the edge of the box. And then I put the box in the freezer for a few hours until it was nice and cold. I still had to be careful removing the tape but the tape didn't stick to the box as well as it did when it was warm. And it didn't leave any glue behind. The one that I havn't licked yet is how to remove crayon price marking from a paper diskette label or a book page without it smearing or bleeding into the paper. 7.4 What disk sizes are there? A floppy diskette is 8" in width. A mini floppy diskette is 5.25" in width. A micro floppy diskette is 3.5" in width. And computers like the Amstrad CPC6128 and the Sinclair ZX Spectrum+3 use a compact floppy diskette which is 3.15" or 8 cm in width. I also have diskettes made by Nintendo (the word Nintendo is embossed in the plastic) for the Nintendo Family Computer. I don't know what they're called and I haven't measured one yet, but as I remember they are just a little smaller than a micro floppy. ---------------------------------- My computer collection up on the web still needs a lot of work, but I'm looking for suggestions about: - the way it's laid out - are the pictures too big to download quickly - is there incorrect information If you can help me out, my collection is located at www.best.com/~dcoward/museum Thanks ---------------------------------- >>Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of >>this range? I'm 210 years old in computer years. ======================================================= dcoward@pressstart.com Doug Coward Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale CA ======================================================= From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Apr 18 22:17:03 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa...? In-Reply-To: References: <199704181920.OAA15112@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970418201703.00f20a8c@agora.rdrop.com> At 05:38 PM 4/18/97 -0700, you wrote: > >By the way, how much did a Lisa cost new (back in 1983 or whenever)? >I remember a price of about $16,000 . . . > $9,995.00US at introduction in January of 1983. But that price did not include the 5mb ProFile hard drive which would set you back another $3,499.00US. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From zmerch at northernway.net Fri Apr 18 23:37:56 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: FAQ Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970419003754.002da8e8@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, dcoward happened to blather: > I was just reading the FAQ and thought that I should add my two cents. And I was just reading this post, and can add some wisdom as well... >7.4 What disk sizes are there? > > A floppy diskette is 8" in width. > A mini floppy diskette is 5.25" in width. > A micro floppy diskette is 3.5" in width. The *first* micro floppy was 3" in width. Yes, you heard me correctly. Amdek designed and built a SSDD 3" floppy drive around 1983-84 (or so... I'll have to look) that used it's own style of media (and it was flippy, unlike the 3.5" of today) and they interfaced it to and marketed it for two computers that I know of: The Radio Shack (Tandy) Color Computer, and The Atari 800. So far I've seen 2 Atari units for sale on the forsale newsgroups in the last 9 months or so, and altho I've never seen the CoCo version (on sale or anything) I have a color magazine ad advertising the system that I could scan in if I ever find the time... ================ Also, in the grand naming scheme above, just *what* would you call a 2" floppy? Yessireebob, a 2" floppy! I *own* one of these drives... they were used in the Zenith MiniSport 8088-based IBM/clone laptop. Cute little rascals... someday I'll take a pic or two and scan 'em in... Specs: 2" floppy, 80 Track, DSDD 720K formatted storage capacity. (I don't know the TPI or anything... may look into that if possible...) I hope this helps to enlighten folks just a little bit more... Have a Golfy Day! "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From ronaldm at mars.ark.com Sat Apr 19 00:10:58 1997 From: ronaldm at mars.ark.com (Ron Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers Message-ID: <199704190510.WAA03641@mars.ark.com> >In a message dated 97-04-14 22:27:40 EDT, you write: > >> > >Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of=20 >> > >this range? >> > >I'm seriously outside of =20. more like =20 +25(next week). > >Lou Just a young man are you. Last week I turned 53. -Ron Mitchell From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Sat Apr 19 05:33:57 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers Message-ID: <199704191033.GAA23974@wincom.net> At 10:10 PM 4/18/97 -0700, you wrote: >>In a message dated 97-04-14 22:27:40 EDT, you write: >> >>> > >Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of=20 >>> > >this range? >>> > >>I'm seriously outside of =20. more like =20 +25(next week). >> >>Lou > >Just a young man are you. > >Last week I turned 53. > > -Ron Mitchell > I turned seventy two about a month age! Charlie Fox From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 19 06:07:38 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: FAQ In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970419003754.002da8e8@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > The *first* micro floppy was 3" in width. Yes, you heard me correctly. > Amdek designed and built a SSDD 3" floppy drive around 1983-84 (or so... > I'll have to look) that used it's own style of media (and it was flippy, > unlike the 3.5" of today) and they interfaced it to and marketed it for two > computers that I know of: > > The Radio Shack (Tandy) Color Computer, and > The Atari 800. Also used on the Oric computers (Oric-1, Oric Atmos and Oric Telestrat [aka Stratos]) and the Amstrad CPC, PCW and CPC Plus series. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From chris at thanatos.yawc.net Fri Apr 18 10:06:03 1997 From: chris at thanatos.yawc.net (Chris Skates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: FAQ In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.32.19970419003754.002da8e8@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <199704191419.PAA26305@thanatos.yawc.net> > Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:07:38 +0100 (BST) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Alexios Chouchoulas > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: FAQ > On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > The *first* micro floppy was 3" in width. Yes, you heard me correctly. > > Amdek designed and built a SSDD 3" floppy drive around 1983-84 (or so... > > I'll have to look) that used it's own style of media (and it was flippy, > > unlike the 3.5" of today) and they interfaced it to and marketed it for two > > computers that I know of: > > > > The Radio Shack (Tandy) Color Computer, and > > The Atari 800. > > Also used on the Oric computers (Oric-1, Oric Atmos and Oric Telestrat > [aka Stratos]) and the Amstrad CPC, PCW and CPC Plus series. And the Einstein luggable among other things, 3" disks were very tough little bleeders, chuck 'em against a wall and they'd still be okay. 2" floppies were mentioned, I distantly remember those and I think there was an early digital camera that used those too. How many photos they could sqeeze into 720K is anyone's guess! - /-------------------------------------------------------------------\ | The Lost One, Thanatos admin and all round good egg | You can't | | Contact Thanatos BBS on *http://thanatos.yawc.net, | fool me. | | *ftp://thanatos.yawc.net or | There ain't | | *telnet://thanatos.yawc.net | no Sanity | | | Clause! | \-------------------------------------------------------------------/ From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Sat Apr 19 09:40:49 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers In-Reply-To: <199704190510.WAA03641@mars.ark.com> References: <199704190510.WAA03641@mars.ark.com> Message-ID: <335ad8e7.833157@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:10:58 -0700, you wrote: >Last week I turned 53. > > -Ron Mitchell > 1944 was a very good year! 8-) _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan at 10:23 a.m. on April 13th!!! (7lbs. 2oz., 19", lots of dark hair, and HEALTHY!) From transit at primenet.com Sat Apr 19 09:47:14 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa...? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970418201703.00f20a8c@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: > >By the way, how much did a Lisa cost new (back in 1983 or whenever)? > >I remember a price of about $16,000 . . . > > > > $9,995.00US at introduction in January of 1983. But that price did not > include the 5mb ProFile hard drive which would set you back another > $3,499.00US. $3,500 for *5* megabytes? That's $700 per megabyte! When I think about it, then look at the Zip drive on my desk ($150 for 100 megabytes = $1.50 per megabyte). . . Now, what was that old saying about "If cars were like computers, they'd cost about $50 now. . ." From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 19 12:43:49 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Disks (was: Re: Generations and Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > Aw come on! Think about it 8-) Thinking? I'm running out of brain cells. I predict that by the end of my final exams next week, I'll be so brainless that I'll even like being the manager of immense software companies making GUIs and calling them operating systems. :-) Anyway, it wouldn't have helped! I was making the wrong assumptions. > The media MUST be able to pack bits closer. (Higher density) > Even at higher spindle speeds you have to flip the dipoles. > You use higher current in the record head to get a bigger signal > out of the read head. > You do that be using a polished and *harder* (magnetically) medium. > The old soft style head can not successfully record and the read > head gain is too low the successfully read. *NOW* I know. :-) I was under the impression that the media simply had higher resolution. The way you put it, it's obvious. It really is a good thing I still have a lot of DD diskettes at home. I'm sure I could locate tons more if I need them -- old PC users usually have loads of them. Most would be pleased to `part' with that old `junk' (sic), especially if they get money for it. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From dastar at crl.com Sat Apr 19 13:00:54 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers In-Reply-To: <335ad8e7.833157@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:10:58 -0700, you wrote: > > >Last week I turned 53. > > > > -Ron Mitchell > > > > 1944 was a very good year! 8-) Um, I don't want to rain on anyone's birthday, but there hasn't been a whole lot of classic computer discussion going on this past week with everyone sounding off about their age. I recommend checking out Doug Coward's classic computer museum at: http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum He's got a nice diverse selection of old computers and stuff and a lot of pictures. Some of the systems he has I have absolutely never heard of, and they are just beautiful (it's nice being able to actually see them). He also has little tidbits of history for some companies. It's cool that there are so many people interested in classic computers. I hope someday we can have conventions where we can get together to discuss the preservation of the machines much like we are discussing in this mailing list. We could have workshops on how to store data medium, how to repair blown components on the motherboard, we could have trading zones for people who need to get system software for the various computers they have, and then their would be people buying/selling/trading their old computers. Hmmm...this would be a cool thing. Maybe when I have 26 hours in a day I will organize the first one. What do you all think? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From starling at umr.edu Sat Apr 19 16:25:15 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Computer Prices (was Apple Lisa) In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Apr 19, 97 07:47:14 am Message-ID: <199704192125.QAA11012@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > Now, what was that old saying about "If cars were like computers, they'd > cost about $50 now. . ." True... but you'd be driving a Model T. It's interesting, though, that throughout the life of the Home Computer, its cost has always been around $1,500.00. I'm talking about the cost of the averagely configured machine for home use. As technology progresses, people want the most money can buy, within a home budget. And it seems like the price has always been around $1,500.00. I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions to this little rule of thumb, but it pretty much holds true. That seems to be the breaking point where average {Joe|Jane} user say, "Nope... too much, lemme look at the next cheaper model." * From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Apr 19 17:31:49 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Seeking.... (this week) Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970419153149.00cd9b14@agora.rdrop.com> To fill a gap in the Heathkit section of my collection: Heath (H10?) Paper Tape Reader/Punch unit. Any out there??? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Apr 19 19:05:40 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Computer Prices (was Apple Lisa) In-Reply-To: <199704192125.QAA11012@saucer.cc.umr.edu> from "Starling" at Apr 19, 97 04:25:15 pm Message-ID: <9704192305.AA23000@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 434 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970419/67dc0e8c/attachment.ksh From dastar at crl.com Sat Apr 19 21:28:30 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:07 2005 Subject: Computer Prices (was Apple Lisa) In-Reply-To: <199704192125.QAA11012@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Starling wrote: > It's interesting, though, that throughout the life of the Home Computer, > its cost has always been around $1,500.00. I'm talking about the cost of > the averagely configured machine for home use. As technology progresses, That's if you're talking IBMs, Apples, etc. There are plenty examples of cheap, home computers for less than $500 such as atari 800's, Commodore 64's, etc. Of course, some would argue that, compared to IBM's and Apples, those aren't "real" computers. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sat Apr 19 23:06:01 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: FAQ In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970419003754.002da8e8@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: Just re-reading an old Compute! article (March '84) It says that at the time there were "disagreements" as to which size of microfloppy should be "standard" It lists sizes of 3" 3 1/4" and 3 1/2" Interestingly enough, the article also mentions advances in "vertical recording techniques." One of the companies listed was supposed to be introducing a 5 1/4" disk that could hold approximately 6.5 megs of data. Anything ever come of this? Also mentioned were laserdisk interfaces for Commodore 64's and Apple II's purrrty neat! Les From starling at umr.edu Sat Apr 19 23:07:55 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: FAQ In-Reply-To: <199704190344.UAA26944@mx5.u.washington.edu> from "dcoward" at Apr 18, 97 08:44:13 pm Message-ID: <199704200407.XAA03897@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > The one that I havn't licked yet is how to remove crayon price marking > from a paper diskette label or a book page without it smearing or bleeding > into the paper. Grease Pencil (the paper-bound kind you unwrap) comes off of glossy cartridge labels and cartridges themselves quite happily with just alcohol. However, I'm not sure about actual crayons... especially on porous paper. Perhaps it'd be a great boost to the Collecting Community to do a methodical study of the removal of various types of price markings on various kinds of surfaces. If I ever had time... From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sat Apr 19 23:15:39 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Computer Prices (was Apple Lisa) In-Reply-To: <199704192125.QAA11012@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Starling wrote: > > Now, what was that old saying about "If cars were like computers, they'd > > cost about $50 now. . ." > > True... but you'd be driving a Model T. > > It's interesting, though, that throughout the life of the Home Computer, > its cost has always been around $1,500.00. I'm talking about the cost of > the averagely configured machine for home use. As technology progresses, > people want the most money can buy, within a home budget. And it seems > like the price has always been around $1,500.00. I'm sure there are > plenty of exceptions to this little rule of thumb, but it pretty much > holds true. That seems to be the breaking point where average {Joe|Jane} > user say, "Nope... too much, lemme look at the next cheaper model." > Some bits of useless trivia: Found some old ads, enjoy! November 1985, ad for PC-AT $4675 yikes! October 1992, ad for Commodore Amiga 3000T $5998 !!!!!!! Im glad those prices haven't stuck around!!! Les From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Apr 20 06:21:01 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: PET stuff Message-ID: Does anyone out there know much about the old PET 2001 machines? I received a PET a couple of years ago, in which all of the 6550 SRAMs were fried. I replaced them with the chips from another PET 2001 (one with the miniature keyboard, from 1977) and the system worked fine. Does anyone know how all of the memory chips could've been killed? I tried them in various patterns in the sockets, and it does seem as if all 16 of them are fried. Anyway, is it still possible to get 6550s anywhere? And if not, is there a replacement that could be used? Even better: Can I simply replace the 6550s with another type of chip and get more RAM in the system? Most of my software works in 8K, but I do have some music files that require more. (I have one of those external music boards that plugs into the cassette2 and user ports, that delivers four voices.) Now, another question. With that same PET, came an expansion board of some kind. Its like a daughterboard, physically mounted on posts above the motherboard, but connected via the memory expansion connector on the side. It appears (yes) to be a memory board, with 16 RAM chips on it. At least, they look like they could be RAM chips, judging by the traces on the board. However, I've never seen RAM chips with gold contacts and gold plates on their backs before, as six of these chips have, so I'm wondering if this could be more than just a memory board. The board is dead, BTW. The PET won't operate with the board plugged in. It just comes up with a screenful of garbage characters. The board plugs directly into the PETs power supply, and then a cable leads from it to the PET motherboard's power connector. There are three large 470uF capacitors and two things that I guess are voltage regulators (I don't know much about electronics :) ), so I'm guessing that this board has its own refresh circuitry on it and it uses DRAM, but that could be totally wrong. :) Both connectors on the cable that leads from the expansion board to the motherboard are noticeably burnt. In both cases, the burn marks surround the pin that connects to the black wire. The only identifying mark on the board is the text: R 3014 rev. C COPYRIGHT 1978 R.C.Factor Does anyone have any better guesses than me as to its function? (Can the edge connector on the side of the PET be used for anything other than RAM expansion?) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From dynasoar at mindspring.com Sun Apr 20 15:19:30 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: yo References: Message-ID: <335A7A51.8DC@mindspring.com> > On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Hey, let's have a contest. Let's see who can score the best lot of > > classic computers this weekend. We can score each other based on the > > type and age of the computers/software/accessories we got, then tally up > > the points and whoever has the highest score gets a pat on the back. Okay, flea markets and yard sales were slim this weekend around Rocky Mount, NC....but here's my entry in the contest: 1 Commodore C2N Cassette datarecorder (the round, sleekly styled later model, not the chunky,squared older version) found in flea market in Wilson, NC...... price $1.00 Kirk dynasoar@mindspring.com From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Sun Apr 20 15:04:56 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers In-Reply-To: <199704191033.GAA23974@wincom.net> Message-ID: > >Just a young man are you. > > > >Last week I turned 53. > > > > -Ron Mitchell > > > > I turned seventy two about a month age! > > Charlie Fox Now come on! When I named this the Classic Computers List I was talking about the machines - not the people that use them!!! ;)))) ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 20 19:36:31 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: FAQ In-Reply-To: <199704200407.XAA03897@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Starling wrote: > Perhaps it'd be a great boost to the Collecting Community to do a > methodical study of the removal of various types of price markings on > various kinds of surfaces. If I ever had time... I'm sure that more `conventional' (sic) collectors and museum curators have extremely well-documented methods for doing all sorts of things like that, including protecting paper and cleaning materials. Now, if only we could get a good source... --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 20 19:46:10 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: [...] > I recommend checking out Doug Coward's classic computer museum at: > > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum > > He's got a nice diverse selection of old computers and stuff and a lot of > pictures. Some of the systems he has I have absolutely never heard of, > and they are just beautiful (it's nice being able to actually see them). > He also has little tidbits of history for some companies. I second that motion. :-) Just been there and I liked it! It's a pity his page can't be reached from most search engines (or is too new to have been indexed yet). I wonder how many other such great pages there are... > It's cool that there are so many people interested in classic computers. I heard/read somewhere (can't remember my source, so shoot me) that collecting computers is becoming some sort of mainstream hobby. Must have been `Triumph of the Nerds'. An image of a complete luser utterly destroying a PDP-8 in the process of `restoration' comes to mind. Hopefully most such people can be convinced that these computers are useless since they don't run Winblows 95, so they'll leave them alone. :-) --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From dastar at crl.com Sun Apr 20 20:03:52 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > > It's cool that there are so many people interested in classic computers. > > I heard/read somewhere (can't remember my source, so shoot me) that > collecting computers is becoming some sort of mainstream hobby. Must have > been `Triumph of the Nerds'. An image of a complete luser utterly destroying This totally sucks in one respect because I've been into this since before it became a "hobby", and it's always been relatively easy to get sweet old computers for rock bottom prices because people were happy to dump them off. Now that your typical dork who saw that show is going to want to start collecting also, the prices for this junk is going to start running up. It's going to became a fad, and soon it will become in vogue for every geeky computer professional to "own a classic". Then the yuppies will come in and try to snatch up all the really classic stuff and use them as centerpieces in their living room. Visitor: Gee, Tom, whatcha got there? Tom: Its a Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-11. I paid $10,000 for it at an antique auction. I'm preserving a piece of computing history you know! Visitor: Wow! Tom: Want to see my Commodore collection? At least I hope this doesn't become the case, because I do this because I truly love the machines I collect and am truly fascinated by them and am truly sincere about preserving them and keeping them alive. I think we can all say that. But once it starts becoming mainstream then it becomes a way for cheezy people at swap meets to command outrageous prices for old computer junk. I already see it happening on AuctionWeb. > a PDP-8 in the process of `restoration' comes to mind. Hopefully most such > people can be convinced that these computers are useless since they don't > run Winblows 95, so they'll leave them alone. :-) One could only hope. Visitor: So, how much RAM does this baby have? Tom: Well, the guy I bought it from said 32"K", but I think he meant 32 "Megs". Visitor: Yeah, how can you run Windows on 32K? He must've been wrong! Tom: Yeah, totally. Now I wish I could figure out where to insert the CD ROM. This big 8 inch slot doesn't seem to accept it very well. On another note, I'm a total boob! The "IBM PC/XT" I bought from a swap meet for $7 is not. The only thing "IBM" about it is the full height floppy 5.25" drive. Other than that its just a lame Taiwanese compatible. It even has DOS 5.0 on the hard drive! Nothing classic about that. I was expecting 3.3 at the LATEST. I did get an IBM XT keyboard with it that is IBM, but it doesn't work(!) Oh well, live and learn. At least it works, but it wasn't even worth the $7 I paid for it. Bleah. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Apr 20 20:10:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <335A7A51.8DC@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Robert Kirk Scott wrote: > > On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > > Hey, let's have a contest. Let's see who can score the best lot of > > > classic computers this weekend. We can score each other based on the > > > type and age of the computers/software/accessories we got, then tally up > > > the points and whoever has the highest score gets a pat on the back. > > Okay, flea markets and yard sales were slim this weekend around Rocky > Mount, > NC....but here's my entry in the contest: > > 1 Commodore C2N Cassette datarecorder (the round, sleekly styled later > model, not the > chunky,squared older version) found in flea market in Wilson, NC...... > price $1.00 Well you win. I spent the whole day sitting on my ass in front of my computer. BTW, I have one of those datacorders also. I think this would be a fun thing to do still. If anyone else is interested, speak up, or write to me directly via e-mail. Then we don't have to bother anyone else in the discussion with our silly little game. We could pick a date (a weekend) and then assign some sparse rules and then do it. It would be fun. Contact me if interested. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From zmerch at northernway.net Sun Apr 20 20:47:53 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970420214751.00a055a0@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, Sam Ismail happened to blather: >I think this would be a fun thing to do still. If anyone else is >interested, speak up, or write to me directly via e-mail. Then we don't >have to bother anyone else in the discussion with our silly little game. >We could pick a date (a weekend) and then assign some sparse rules and >then do it. It would be fun. Contact me if interested. Actually, I think this would be a fun "silly little game" except in my case the time frame needs to be improved *greatly*. Where I live, garage sales haven't even started yet! (Why, you may ask... for some reason, people don't want to set their "prized possesions" out in 2' of snow!) What would be fun for me is if the contest ran for a month, or even the whole summer... then those of use in the "boonies" might have a chance... 'cause for now, you win. Tough to enter a contest when they don't offer it in your area! Also, if it was over a month's span, then I might even be able to take a road trip to a larger (read: civilized) area to do some scrounging... and mebbe hit some thrift stores, as well. How's this sound, folks? "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Sun Apr 20 20:45:45 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Contest (was Re: yo) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <335ac629.2574060@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:10:55 -0700 (PDT), someone said: >I think this would be a fun thing to do still. If anyone else is >interested, speak up, or write to me directly via e-mail. Then we don't >have to bother anyone else in the discussion with our silly little game. >We could pick a date (a weekend) and then assign some sparse rules and >then do it. It would be fun. Contact me if interested. > >Sam I say keep it on the list, especially if you're willing to sell/trade. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan at 10:23 a.m. on April 13th!!! (7lbs. 2oz., 19", lots of dark hair, and HEALTHY!) From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sun Apr 20 23:14:59 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah yes, but there IS one good thing about it. We can wait and then seel those very same idiots something like a commodore 64 for $5000 and laugh our asses off. (Not to mention the fact that we'd have 5 more in the back room for more idiots!) Les From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 21 07:27:33 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > We can wait and then seel those very same idiots something like > a commodore 64 for $5000 and laugh our asses off. (Not to > mention the fact that we'd have 5 more in the back room for > more idiots!) Aha! You have a point! Anyone remember the time when Osborne-1s were supposedly rare and were priced at around $1,000-$10,000? Ha ha. Nice joke. Mind you, they're somewhat uncommon in Europe. I've only seen one of them at a flea market and I didn't buy it. But then again I probably didn't have enough money (items at flea markets are priced in direct proportion to bulk/weight, alas) and I wasn't even into collecting then (I was seriously tempted to start, though!). --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 21 07:49:07 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Well you win. I spent the whole day sitting on my ass in front of my > computer. BTW, I have one of those datacorders also. Well, since we're into hardware acquisition dick wars, this weekend has been very profitable for me, at least. Got a Commodore Plus/4 (only seen one of those and it was going for 2.00 UKP), a nice Toshiba MSX machine (love the BASIC, Microsoft though it is) and a Radofin video game (another one... hm). Spent a total of 12 UKP. I guess I could have bargained a bit. Oh, I didn't get a(nother) Sinclair Spectrum +2A, but they seem to be everywhere. Also, there's this poor guy trying to sell his Amstrad PC-1640 (crappy so-and-so PC compatible). That 1640 has been sitting around for at least two weeks now. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 21 07:35:26 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 Message-ID: I remembered a message here about pricing and video games yesterday. Someone had an Atari 2600 (the new, revamped, black type) at the car boot sale in Edinburgh yesterday. He explained to me that this was a "games computer" with around 8 carts (lemmesee, Pacman, Ms. Pacman, Pole Position, etc. -- ooh, rare). The price: 20.00 UKP (around $30?). Surely, these people are joking. I didn't even want to haggle for a new VCS. Now, if it was the *OLD* type, I might have been interested (I don't normally collect this stuff, but the old VCS has sentimental value -- I played my first game of Space Invaders on one). Unfortunately, at another flea market, another time and another country (and anyway, the wench is dead), an original VCS was going for around $100, with extremely common carts selling for as much as $25. Amazing. Almost as expensive as the thing when it first came out. :-) My theory for this is that game machines haven't changed all that much in the last 20 years: still a box, still take carts (or CD-ROMs nowadays), still have joysticks. What the heck, it must be worth something, right? Whereas computers have changed so dramatically that your average car boot sale joe will sell an old `computer keyboard' (probably a ZX-80) for peanuts since it doesn't appear to have a monitor or a CD-ROM or Winblows installed. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 21 07:44:56 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > This totally sucks in one respect because I've been into this since > before it became a "hobby", and it's always been relatively easy to get > sweet old computers for rock bottom prices because people were happy to > dump them off. Now that your typical dork who saw that show is going to > want to start collecting also, the prices for this junk is going to start > running up. It all depends. No reason to panic until you see people ogling at your newly-acquired IMSAI with a mad look in their eyes, reaching for their wallets at the same time. :-) There's no such thing as a market for old computers, hence no real communication between the people who sell their old junk (sic) at garage sales and such. Even if collecting becomes totally mainstream, with glossy mags and tons of clubs and other such abominations, it'll take time before prices start rising. > Visitor: Gee, Tom, whatcha got there? > Tom: Its a Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-11. I paid $10,000 for it > at an antique auction. I'm preserving a piece of computing history you know! > Visitor: Wow! > Tom: Want to see my Commodore collection? Argh! Mercy! Can't stop laughing! :-) > At least I hope this doesn't become the case, because I do this because I > truly love the machines I collect and am truly fascinated by them and am > truly sincere about preserving them and keeping them alive. I think we > can all say that. But once it starts becoming mainstream then it becomes > a way for cheezy people at swap meets to command outrageous prices for > old computer junk. I already see it happening on AuctionWeb. If it does become mainstream (though I doubt it will, not in the very near future), we have another reason to be more aggressive in collecting. So far, we're rescuing old iron, minis, micros and what not from the disgusting tentacles of "computer recycling" and the dump. If mainstream Microsoft droids start collecting, we'll have to rescue old hardware from THEIR filthy claws as well. I don't mind losing a machine to another collector -- and this has often happened in the past. But I do mind losing it to someone who wants it for the parts or for fun (aka disassembling it). Fear and loathing. > Visitor: So, how much RAM does this baby have? > Tom: Well, the guy I bought it from said 32"K", but I think he meant 32 > "Megs". > Visitor: Yeah, how can you run Windows on 32K? He must've been wrong! > Tom: Yeah, totally. Now I wish I could figure out where to insert the CD > ROM. This big 8 inch slot doesn't seem to accept it very well. Sam, this kind of ignorance is the stuff the world is made from. Granted, the feelings it evokes range from amusement to rage, but it's still nothing to worry about. There are always cretins. I'd start to worry when Tom above decides to "maintain" his machine and ruins a possibly rare machine out of ignorance. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 21 08:20:13 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > >By the way, how much did a Lisa cost new (back in 1983 or whenever)? > > >I remember a price of about $16,000 . . . > > > > $9,995.00US at introduction in January of 1983. But that price did not > > include the 5mb ProFile hard drive which would set you back another > > $3,499.00US. > > $3,500 for *5* megabytes? That's $700 per megabyte! Jeez. In '81 when Radio Shack came out with their 8.4 MB hard drives for the Model II, the first was $4,495 and the next three were only $3,495 each (since they didn't come with a controller). With a full-blown system of 35 MB for $15,000, that wasn't much over $500/MB. Of course, we thought we'd never be able to fill even one of those disks, what with everything having to fit in 64 KB RAM. Of course, then Xenix for the Model 16 showed up and we found there was a way... > When I think about it, then look at the Zip drive on my desk > ($150 for 100 megabytes = $1.50 per megabyte). . . Yeah, my fiance and I have two of those, they're so handy. But a couple of weeks ago I happened to notice that 4 GB IDE drives are now dropping below $400. A dime per meg. I could cry. And I'll probably be picking up a couple soon for some of my non-classic computers -- Linux can fill any storage surplus you let it near. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 21 08:23:49 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > It all depends. No reason to panic until you see people ogling at your > newly-acquired IMSAI with a mad look in their eyes, reaching for their > wallets at the same time. :-) > It's when you see that mad look in their eyes and they're reaching for their guns... -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From kevan at motiv.co.uk Mon Apr 21 08:56:58 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa Power Supply... Message-ID: <199704211357.OAA17267@cream.motiv.co.uk> Hi, While I have the attention of Lisa owners with the other thread I thought I may make this request... I have owned a Lisa 2 for a number of years now, but unfortunately it has a mostly broken power supply unit. Over this time I seem to have got close to finding spares or schematics more times than I care to remember, only to be let down at the last minute. (Sorry, sob story over now.) It is a complex beast and I don't have the technical know how to fix the problem, but I do have friends, who are skilled electronic engineers, who say they can do it with the schematics. Has anybody got the schematics for a Lisa 2 power supply? Failing this has anybody got a working spare they are willing to part with? Or do you know of a cheap source of them? Many thanks... -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Apr 21 09:29:30 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Cost per Meg... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970421102930.008eb240@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers said: >On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > >> When I think about it, then look at the Zip drive on my desk >> ($150 for 100 megabytes = $1.50 per megabyte). . . > >Yeah, my fiance and I have two of those, they're so handy. But a couple >of weeks ago I happened to notice that 4 GB IDE drives are now dropping >below $400. A dime per meg. I could cry. And I'll probably be picking >up a couple soon for some of my non-classic computers -- Linux can fill >any storage surplus you let it near. They are handy, but they're still expensive for storage. For around $50 (or I think less), you can pick up a 1.3G magneto optical platter - That's roughly 4 cents per meg! Granted, the drive runs around $600, but it's worth it! (also, it's a flippy media, but hey! You'll still swap less than a Zip!) Don't get me wrong... I have a SCSI zip (that's the *only* way to go.. the Parallel port is _just_ _too_ _slow!_) and I do like it... but for mass storage that will last 30 years around kids with magnets, MO is awesome! Oh, and Linux is still a lot easier on the storage than Win95! 64K clusters -- Bah! ;^> Just my $0.0002 (cheaper media), "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 21 11:12:47 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Cost per Meg... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970421102930.008eb240@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > They are handy, but they're still expensive for storage. For around $50 (or > I think less), you can pick up a 1.3G magneto optical platter - That's > roughly 4 cents per meg! Granted, the drive runs around $600, but it's > worth it! (also, it's a flippy media, but hey! You'll still swap less than > a Zip!) Actually, I don't use the Zip disks much for long-term archiving -- I count on redundant systems for my real data -- why should I back up operating systems and application packages (other than configuration files) when I've got the installation media and it'll be upgraded or superceded in a few months anyway. I mostly use them for moving my real stuff between those redundant systems as well as the desktop at work that I use most for sucking stuff off of the net, as the T-1 there is better than the 28.8 at home when pulling down a couple of hundred meg of fresh Linux material. > Don't get me wrong... I have a SCSI zip (that's the *only* way to go.. the > Parallel port is _just_ _too_ _slow!_) and I do like it... but for mass > storage that will last 30 years around kids with magnets, MO is awesome! Well, ours are both parallel since one of the main ideas was to use them to move material between mostly PC compatibles running Linux, OS/2 and (mostly Lisa's) Microslough-based machines. And Lisa actually is using them to backup her systems. I'm still designing my next power system, and at present we have only one system with a real SCSI interface -- my new power system will have one as well. (The box it's being built into is an old AT&T 6386E tower box with enough room to put in any damn thing I want -- I won't throw away the old CPU and ESDI drives though, as eventually [it's ten years old next year] I'll want to restore the machine as a classic). > Oh, and Linux is still a lot easier on the storage than Win95! 64K clusters > -- Bah! ;^> Not the way I do it -- I tend to put _everything_ on my hard disk, even the contents of the Red Hat Linux Library CD. It's amazing how much space years of documentation and source changes takes up. Plus my main Linux system provides overflow storage via UUCP for all of the material that doesn't fit on my old Tandy Xenix and AT&T 3B1 systems (both discontinued about 1986 and therefore on-topic in this mailing list, in case anyone was getting impatient with the discussion of newfangled stuff like Linux and Zip drives -- Linux allows us to extend the capabilities of those classics and I know that there is an attempt in progress to adapt the Zip to the 3B1). -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Apr 21 12:07:01 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Cost per Meg... In-Reply-To: from "Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers" at Apr 21, 97 12:12:47 pm Message-ID: <9704211607.AA25087@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1062 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970421/eeeeb45c/attachment.ksh From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Apr 21 11:20:47 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: SCSI drives & classic systems In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970421102930.008eb240@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970421122047.007ce3c0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers said: >On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: >as well as the desktop at >work that I use most for sucking stuff off of the net, as the T-1 >there is better than the 28.8 at home when pulling down a couple of >hundred meg of fresh Linux material. Whoo-hoo! A man with a mission! Hey, if you're ever in the EUP of Michigan, stop in for a homebrew! As I have T1 at work as well, that's why I like the Zip. Do you realize just how *much* stuff for classic computers there is out there? I've filled my zip twice with stuff for my CoCo's, my Tandy 200 & 600 laptops, the Atari 800, and the Atari 1040ST machine I'm getting in a month or so. (that should still be old enough for this list... shouldn't it?) >that doesn't fit on my old Tandy Xenix and AT&T 3B1 systems (both >discontinued about 1986 and therefore on-topic in this mailing list, in >case anyone was getting impatient with the discussion of newfangled >stuff like Linux and Zip drives -- Linux allows us to extend the >capabilities of those classics and I know that there is an attempt in >progress to adapt the Zip to the 3B1). I just read on a CoCo newsgroup that someone has successfully interfaced a SCSI Zip drive to their CoCo (the stock SCSI boards need modification to work with a zip... but it's only a matter of time, now!) Also, I plan on getting a SCSI board for my ST, so then the zip will have worked with a Mac, 2 PC's, a Sun Netra Solaris box, the ST (when it's ready) and the CoCo (if the guy publishes the mods / driver patches.) Cain't do dat with a Parallel! AAMAF, a lot of these SCSI technologies available now have the ability to breath new life into these older machines... as there is now an IDE interface available for the CoCo as well! If anyone's interested in this, send me an e-mail and I'll get you more info. BTW, what Tandy Xenix box do you have? Been wanting a 16b or a 6000... but can't find those very easily up here in the boonies! Gotta Roll, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Apr 21 11:43:31 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204976A75@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> > ---------- > From: Alexios Chouchoulas[SMTP:alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, April 21, 1997 5:44 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and > Computers) > | If mainstream Microsoft | droids start collecting, we'll have to rescue old hardware from THEIR | filthy claws as well. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > Attention: > [ ] Clueless Newbie [ ] Lamer [ ] AOLer > [ ] Me-too-er [ ] Pervert [ ] Geek > [ ] Spammer [ ] Grade School Dropout [ ] Nerd > [ ] Fed [ ] Freak [ ] > Scientologist > [ ] Fool [ ] Jesus Krispy [ ] Anonymous > Coward > [ ] Rush Limbecile [X] Paranoid MS-Hater [ ] Ex-AOLer > > You are being contacted because: > [ ] You said "me too" to something > [ ] You posted a phone-sex ad > [ ] You posted a local message in an international conference > [ ] You posted a "test" in a newsgroup other than alt.test > [ ] You started an off-topic thread > [ ] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message > [ ] You brag about things that never happened > [X] You posted a "Microsoft is out to get us" message > [ ] Your sig/alias/server sucks > [ ] Your writing skills do not even meet the low standards of Usenet > [ ] You posted a jail-bait message > [ ] You asked a ridiculous question > [ ] You posted a con/scam/pyramid scheme message > [ ] Your lack of a quote made your response incoherent > [ ] You posted to more than four newsgroups > [ ] You were imposing your religious beliefs on others > [ ] You posted something really stupid/depraved > [ ] You tried to blame others for your stupidity > [X] You incorrectly assumed unwarranted moral or intellectual > superiority > > To Repent, You Must: > [ ] Invest in a dictionary/spell-checker > [ ] Learn to correctly use your software/provider/bulletin board > [ ] Give up your AOL account > [ ] Try faking an interesting personality > [ ] Pretend you are Trent Reznor > [ ] Actually post something relevant > [X] Shave your head > [ ] Read the docs/FAQ > [ ] Post your tests to alt.test > [X] Limit yourself to 2 hours of WWF Wrestling per day > [ ] Print your home phone number in your adverts > [ ] Become a Satanist, sell your kids to Michael Jackson > [ ] Send Bill Gates a love letter > > In Closing, I'd Like to Say: > [ ] You're an idiot > [ ] Bite me > [X] Get a life > [ ] Never post again > [ ] I pity your dog > [ ] Go to hell > [ ] Your mother's so fat/stupid/ugly that etc... > [ ] Learn to post or sod off > [ ] Do us all a favor and crawl into some industrial machinery > [ ] See how far your tongue will fit into the electric outlet > [ ] All of the above > > end flame. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Apr 21 11:48:54 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204976A8B@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | Aha! You have a point! Anyone remember the time when Osborne-1s were | supposedly rare and were priced at around $1,000-$10,000? Ha ha. Nice joke. This stems from a California reporter who got confused when talking to collectors and printed in the newspaper that an Osborne 1 sold for over $10,000. The collectors were actually talking about an Apple I, not an Osborne 1 (an easy confusion for a layman to make). An Apple I sold at the Computer Bowl charity auction (filled with billionaires) for that price, but even that doesn't mean that an Apple I is _worth_ $10K, just that someone made a nice charity donation in connection with one. Kai From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 21 11:58:45 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970420214751.00a055a0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Actually, I think this would be a fun "silly little game" except in my case > the time frame needs to be improved *greatly*. Where I live, garage sales > haven't even started yet! (Why, you may ask... for some reason, people > don't want to set their "prized possesions" out in 2' of snow!) You make a valid point there, mister. Silly me, being in California, I tend to forget that other people aren't as fortunate in the weather department as we are out here. > What would be fun for me is if the contest ran for a month, or even the > whole summer... then those of use in the "boonies" might have a chance... > 'cause for now, you win. Tough to enter a contest when they don't offer it > in your area! Good idea. Long term seems funner. That way you can accumulate more goodies to boast about. To keep this discussion from taking up too much space, I'll just hold onto the topic until this summer, and then I'll announce the contest and we can come up with rules and stuff then. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 21 12:22:40 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Cost per Meg... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > They are handy, but they're still expensive for storage. For around $50 (or > > I think less), you can pick up a 1.3G magneto optical platter - That's > > roughly 4 cents per meg! Granted, the drive runs around $600, but it's > > worth it! (also, it's a flippy media, but hey! You'll still swap less than > > a Zip!) > > Actually, I don't use the Zip disks much for long-term archiving -- I > count on redundant systems for my real data -- why should I back up > operating systems and application packages (other than configuration > files) when I've got the installation media and it'll be upgraded or > superceded in a few months anyway. I mostly use them for moving my I don't want to get on anyone's badside but this is not very classic. This stuff is better left to private e-mail. Let's talk classic stuff! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 21 12:16:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > He explained to me that this was a "games computer" with around 8 carts > (lemmesee, Pacman, Ms. Pacman, Pole Position, etc. -- ooh, > rare). The price: 20.00 UKP (around $30?). Surely, these people > are joking. I didn't even want to haggle for a new VCS. I don't know. It depends on the actually console itself. If you mean the newer one with only 4 front panel switches (as opposed to 6) then yes, that is a farce. But the Atari Jr. I have only seen one of (the one I have) and this came out in the late 80s. But still, for the above system I wouldn't pay more than $10 (with the games!) > Unfortunately, at another flea market, another time and another country > (and anyway, the wench is dead), an original VCS was going for around $100, > with extremely common carts selling for as much as $25. Amazing. Almost as > expensive as the thing when it first came out. :-) That's just downright pathetic. If she could get that much for it, more power to her, but I doubt she sold anything. Sometimes its still a bother trying to buy carts from swap meets. These people think these damn things are gold! I try buying them for fifty cents a piece but they usually want $3 each until I yank them back down to reality. Oh well, gives me a chance to work on my haggling skills. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 21 12:28:08 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204976A8B@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > | Aha! You have a point! Anyone remember the time when > Osborne-1s were > | supposedly rare and were priced at around $1,000-$10,000? Ha > ha. Nice joke. > > Osborne 1 (an easy confusion for a layman to make). An Apple I sold at > the Computer Bowl charity auction (filled with billionaires) for that > price, but even that doesn't mean that an Apple I is _worth_ $10K, just > that someone made a nice charity donation in connection with one. Good point. That means I can go out there looking for one in my price range, which is between $100-$200. :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From william at ans.net Mon Apr 21 14:01:36 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704211901.AA27718@interlock.ans.net> > If it does become mainstream (though I doubt it will, not in the very near > future), we have another reason to be more aggressive in collecting. So far, > we're rescuing old iron, minis, micros and what not from the disgusting > tentacles of "computer recycling" and the dump. I would like to point out that this attitude towards scrap dealers is really unproductive to our efforts. I have noticed it several places on this list. Simply stated, scrap dealers are not the enemy! Some of my best goodies have come straight out the junkyard. The secret is to get to know the people doing the scrapping - some of them will turn out to be fine, just uninformed. True, some are jerks that would stab their brother in the back just to get a good deal, but most are simply out to make a good living, being their own boss. To them, the old minis are resources of gold, some chips, some aluminum and tantalum, and misc. dirty metal. Most do not know that there are people that cherish and collect the old gear. They are simply interested in what they will get out of it, relative to what they put into it. If you offer to buy a piece for what they will get for it from the metal merchants and refineries, chances are that they will jump at the opprotunity to do less work. Go to the junkyards and state your intentions. Tell them what you are looking for and leave a card or two. Talk to the owners - most have very interesting tales to tell. This has worked for me quite a few times, although only for a classic computer once (remember, I am quite new to this game). I purchased my Sun 4/280 server (with an old 3/280 processor card as well) cheap, after telling the guy that I am always looking for interesting old machines. At another junkyard, I have pulled many interesting bits (vintage radio and radar things - see, someone does collect search radars!) at scrap prices. The owner kept them from the scrap heaps because he now knows what they are. If he was never told about the interest people have in the stuff, it would be on a slow boat to China by now, and not in personal collections and museums. William Donzelli william@ans.net From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon Apr 21 14:11:01 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: SCSI drives & classic systems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970421122047.007ce3c0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: they've managed to attach Zip rives to Commdore 64/128's too (thru CMD HD's) Les From starling at umr.edu Mon Apr 21 14:13:39 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa Power Supply... In-Reply-To: <199704211357.OAA17267@cream.motiv.co.uk> from "Kevan Heydon" at Apr 21, 97 02:56:58 pm Message-ID: <199704211913.OAA10836@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > Has anybody got the schematics for a Lisa 2 power supply? > When I get mine (May 3rd! May 3rd! Can't wait!), I will have a working Lisa 2 power supply. I could easily sit down with one of my EE friends and figure out the proper ammounts of juice comming out of the power supply. This should be enough to build/find a sufficient replacement. There's a catch, though... You have to remind me to do this. I'm terribly forgetful, so sometime after May 3rd, e-mail me and remind me I was going to do this. I honestly would love to help you... I just will probably forget about it once I get my new toy. chris starling starling@umr.edu From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 21 14:19:06 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: looking for Message-ID: <199704211919.NAA01855@calico.litterbox.com> I'm looking for an external scsi disk case, preferably set up for 2 5.25 inch 1/2 height devices. This is to attach to my second(!) apple2gs with a cdrom and a moderate sized hard disk. I'm told this kind of beast is common around SUN machines, and I know it's common around Digital Equipment machines as well. Anyone got an extra box lying around in their collection that they'd love to sell me? -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From william at ans.net Mon Apr 21 14:36:15 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: looking for In-Reply-To: <199704211919.NAA01855@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <199704211936.AA29699@interlock.ans.net> > I'm looking for an external scsi disk case, preferably set up for 2 > 5.25 inch 1/2 height devices. This is to attach to my second(!) apple2gs > with a cdrom and a moderate sized hard disk. I'm told this kind of beast > is common around SUN machines, and I know it's common around Digital > Equipment machines as well. The Sun boxes are good (bulletproof!), but typically want a Sun SCSI cable. Just another Sun gotcha! William Donzelli william@ans.net From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 21 14:43:28 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: looking for In-Reply-To: <199704211936.AA29699@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Apr 21, 97 03:36:15 pm Message-ID: <199704211943.NAA01961@calico.litterbox.com> > > > I'm looking for an external scsi disk case, preferably set up for 2 > > 5.25 inch 1/2 height devices. This is to attach to my second(!) apple2gs > > with a cdrom and a moderate sized hard disk. I'm told this kind of beast > > is common around SUN machines, and I know it's common around Digital > > Equipment machines as well. > > The Sun boxes are good (bulletproof!), but typically want a Sun SCSI > cable. Just another Sun gotcha! > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > I guess I should have mentioned that. I'd like thing to have Centronix or apple style scsi ports if possible. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 21 14:59:55 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: SCSI drives & classic systems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970421122047.007ce3c0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Whoo-hoo! A man with a mission! Hey, if you're ever in the EUP of Michigan, > stop in for a homebrew! As I have T1 at work as well, that's why I like the > Zip. Do you realize just how *much* stuff for classic computers there is > out there? I've filled my zip twice with stuff for my CoCo's, my Tandy 200 > & 600 laptops, the Atari 800, and the Atari 1040ST machine I'm getting in a > month or so. (that should still be old enough for this list... shouldn't it?) Got most of the Color Computer, 1/3/4, 100 and ST material floating around, as far as I know. And TI/99. > I just read on a CoCo newsgroup that someone has successfully interfaced a > SCSI Zip drive to their CoCo (the stock SCSI boards need modification to > work with a zip... but it's only a matter of time, now!) Also, I plan on > getting a SCSI board for my ST, so then the zip will have worked with a > Mac, 2 PC's, a Sun Netra Solaris box, the ST (when it's ready) and the CoCo > (if the guy publishes the mods / driver patches.) Cain't do dat with a > Parallel! At some point, I will undoubtedly get a SCSI Zip. It hasn't been a priority _yet_. > AAMAF, a lot of these SCSI technologies available now have the ability to > breath new life into these older machines... as there is now an IDE > interface available for the CoCo as well! If anyone's interested in this, > send me an e-mail and I'll get you more info. Gimme the info. > BTW, what Tandy Xenix box do you have? Been wanting a 16b or a 6000... but > can't find those very easily up here in the boonies! 6000 HD. Cost me a dollar at last years Trenton Computer Festival. I had to replace the hard drive. Just _happened_ to have an unused 40MB MFM drive for some reason. From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri Apr 18 02:36:49 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: FAQ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 20-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Interestingly enough, the article also mentions advances >in "vertical recording techniques." One of the companies >listed was supposed to be introducing a 5 1/4" disk that >could hold approximately 6.5 megs of data. Anything >ever come of this? Supra sold a 5-1/4" floppy drive for the Atari ST that would hold 10meg on a disk, though the drive used a laser to track the head position, and the disks were special and had special markings on them to allow the laser to track where it was on the disk. I had one of these drives at one point, but could never locate any disks for it. Jeff Jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128, C128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From scott at saskatoon.com Mon Apr 21 16:14:29 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Weekend (almost) aquisitions (sp?) In-Reply-To: <199704211919.NAA01855@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure if Monday legally qualifies for weekend aquisitions, but I filled in some major gaps in my Commodore PET line today. I picked up a 4016, 4032, SuperPET, and 8050 Drive for a grand total of... $50.25 CDN (about $35 USD) at Value Village. There are still more if anyone around here is interested (Saskatchewan, Canada). The labels on the front are beat up, and they're a bit dusty, but for $13ea I'll take them! ttfn srw From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 21 16:17:36 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!) In-Reply-To: <199704211901.AA27718@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > If it does become mainstream (though I doubt it will, not in the very near > > future), we have another reason to be more aggressive in collecting. So far, > > we're rescuing old iron, minis, micros and what not from the disgusting > > tentacles of "computer recycling" and the dump. > > I would like to point out that this attitude towards scrap dealers is > really unproductive to our efforts. I have noticed it several places on > this list. > > Simply stated, scrap dealers are not the enemy! Some of my best goodies > have come straight out the junkyard. The secret is to get to know the > people doing the scrapping - some of them will turn out to be fine, just > uninformed. True, some are jerks that would stab their brother in the > back just to get a good deal, but most are simply out to make a good > living, being their own boss. Yeah, the Lawrence Livermore Labs here in California phased out their CRAY I a couple years back and the high bidder was a scrap dealer who bought it for...I forget how much. Either it was $10,000 or he expected to get $10,000 out of the metals in it. At any rate, reading his quote in the paper about what he would get after melting it down got me incensed. > > To them, the old minis are resources of gold, some chips, some aluminum > and tantalum, and misc. dirty metal. Most do not know that there are > people that cherish and collect the old gear. They are simply interested Good point. I never thought to go to the scrap dealers and get a relationship going. This is a terrific idea! I think I'll start scouting them out this weekend. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 21 16:37:02 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 21, 97 02:17:36 pm Message-ID: <199704212137.PAA02511@calico.litterbox.com> Speaking of CRAY 1s, I remember the most powerful computer I ever saw until I graduated from college was the Cray 1 at the National Center for Atmospheric Research. So, trivia fans, does anyone know what kind of stats it generated in MIPS/FLOPS? I'm curious to know how it stacks up against modern mini/micros. It amazed me at the time though. It had an entire floor of a building full of disks and printers that it kept busy. Intel Paragon may be more powerful, but the one I saw was just nowhere near as impressive, even with the leds showing you which processor was talking to which other processor. For that matter, does anyone know how much power a Cray 1 needs to run? -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From william at ans.net Mon Apr 21 16:40:07 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704212140.AA05686@interlock.ans.net> > Yeah, the Lawrence Livermore Labs here in California phased out their CRAY > I a couple years back and the high bidder was a scrap dealer who bought it > for...I forget how much. Either it was $10,000 or he expected to get > $10,000 out of the metals in it. At any rate, reading his quote in the > paper about what he would get after melting it down got me incensed. Those older Crays are loaded with good metal; most of the weight of the machine (tons?) is from the slabs of copper the boards are mounted to. Of course this means no Cray-1s will ever get into private hands, unless someone wants to pay the price. I do not think the newer Crays are nearly as valuable, but I could be wrong. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Apr 21 16:45:45 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!) In-Reply-To: <199704212137.PAA02511@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <199704212145.AA05897@interlock.ans.net> > So, trivia fans, does anyone know what kind of stats it generated > in MIPS/FLOPS? I think 160 MFLOPS, if you kept the pipes filled. Still fast, but not for its size/power consumption. William Donzelli william@ans.net From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Apr 21 16:40:56 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Scrap Dealers (was Re: Collecting) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204998715@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Here's a list of scrap dealers who buy obsolete computer equipment: Windfield Alloy, Inc. Lawrence, MA 800-626-1230/508-689-2470 Local ComService Enterprises, Brooklyn, NY 718-332-2300/718-332-4471 Fax Silicon Salvage Inc, Anaheim, CA 714-523-2425/714-523-2552 Fax Texas Recycling & Refining, Houston, TX 713-443-2070/713-443-3973 Fax Iowa Electronic Recovery, 800-232-2591/319-337-9548 Fax Metaltech, 800-435-8636/603-524-2873 Fax EnviRoSYS, 800-PRO-JUNK, surplus@crazybob.com Someone should organize contact with these folks so they don't get our whole list calling and bothering them. Kai From dynasoar at mindspring.com Mon Apr 21 20:29:22 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: yo References: Message-ID: <335C1472.E1A@mindspring.com> Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > Also, there's this poor guy trying to sell his Amstrad PC-1640 (crappy > so-and-so PC compatible). That 1640 has been sitting around for at least two > weeks now. Next time you see this guy would you please give him my email address, as I am looking for a new system board for my own "crappy" 1640 :-) Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 21 18:53:48 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204976A8B@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > | Aha! You have a point! Anyone remember the time when > Osborne-1s were > | supposedly rare and were priced at around $1,000-$10,000? Ha > ha. Nice joke. > > This stems from a California reporter who got confused when talking to > collectors and printed in the newspaper that an Osborne 1 sold for over > $10,000. The collectors were actually talking about an Apple I, not an > Osborne 1 (an easy confusion for a layman to make). Ok, that would make sense. It seems that this has become some sort of urban legend, though -- I remember posts in afc like "I have an Osborne-1. Make me an offer about $5000." :-) --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 21 18:44:03 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!) In-Reply-To: <199704211901.AA27718@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > Simply stated, scrap dealers are not the enemy! [...] > Go to the junkyards and state your intentions. Tell them what you are > looking for and leave a card or two. Talk to the owners - most have very > interesting tales to tell. Agreed. But I never claimed the scrap dealers are the enemy! The *act* of sending off machines to be converted to scrap metal is the "enemy". Besides I don't see why we should treat anyone as the "enemy". We're trying to rescue old hardware, not start a war. :-) Unfortunately, I don't know any scrap dealers around here, so I can't put your technique to the test. I'm content going to car boot sales weekly. At an average of two machines per week, it's fine by me (I mainly collect micros, so trips to scrap dealers may be an overkill). --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Apr 21 19:32:21 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2049A1EB9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Turns out I was too quick to place the blame on an errant journalist. The article, excerpted below (not for profit, and do not forward, etc) actually does say "apple 1" -- it was some bozo on Usenet that made the mistake. The part about the Computer Bowl is correct though. Kai 02490420 60320 THE CUTTING EDGE A Byte of History Techies Taking a Scroll Down Memory Lane Los Angeles Times (LT) - MONDAY August 12, 1996 By: GREG MILLER; TIMES STAFF WRITER Edition: Home Edition Section: Business Page: 1 Pt. D Story Type: Main Story; Infobox Word Count: 1,797 TEXT: The nerds are getting nostalgic. Barely 20 years into the personal computer revolution, techies across the country are growing increasingly sentimental about the machines and programs that changed their lives and ushered in the Information Age. For them, booting up a vintage Commodore PET computer can conjure misty-eyed memories. Toggling the switches of an Altair 8800 is better than gripping the gearshift of a first car. And a shrink-wrapped copy of VisiCalc software beats a mint-condition Mickey Mantle baseball card any day. This is the memorabilia of the PC generation, and after spending much of the last decade or two collecting dust in suburban garages from Silicon Valley to Boston's Route 128, it's starting to make a comeback. Virtual museums of vintage hardware and software are sprouting up all over the Internet's World Wide Web, as are online classified ads placed by collectors desperate to reacquire the technological wonders of their youth. Some rare PCs are fetching much higher prices now than they did when they were brand-new, and even revered institutions such as the Smithsonian are bolstering their computer collections. "The amount of activity that I see is amazing," said Kip Crosby, president of the Computer History Assn. of California in Palo Alto. "People are always asking me: 'Can you find me an Altair? Can you find this or that?' I get 10 to 20 phone calls and e-mails a month, twice as many as a year ago." Most of these early machines and programs, which didn't work very well when they were new, are even more troublesome to maintain now--and have been rendered obsolete by wave after wave of new equipment. But like certain cars or baseball cards, high-tech relics are somehow enhanced by the passage of time. Collectors see them as the symbols of a more colorful computer age populated by legendary personalities who became billionaires--or, in some cases, went bust. "That's why I'm interested in computer history," said Co Ho, 30, an Internet administrator at Fullerton College. "Many people could have made it big, but they fell asleep and ended up having somebody else eating their cake." Ho collects vintage software, especially programs that changed the computing landscape but somehow faltered. One of his favorite pieces is CP/M, an early operating system created by Digital Research. CP/M might have become the operating system had Digital Research's founder, the late Gary Kildall, been more hospitable when IBM came calling to license his software. In a legendary blunder, Kildall and his wife refused to sign IBM's confidentiality agreement, and IBM executives took their business to a then-tiny company known as Microsoft. "CP/M missed the boat because of casual behavior," Ho said. "It's really a sad story." Ho is one of the few people who collect software. More collect hardware, and one of the most sought-after machines is the Altair 8800, introduced by MITS Inc. of Albuquerque in 1975. It didn't have a keyboard or a monitor, only rows of switches on the front of the box. The Altair kit sold for $395 when it was new, but one in good condition today can fetch as much as $1,500 because of the exalted position it holds in computer history. Widely regarded as the first mass-market personal computer, it launched a craze when it appeared on the cover of the January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics. Bill Gates even dropped out of Harvard to develop an early version of the Basic programming language for the Altair. The Altair "established Bill Gates in business," said Gwen Bell, founder of the Computer Museum, a Boston mecca for computer lovers. "One of our prize treasures is the original Basic tape that Bill Gates developed on the Altair." Collectors tend to pass over some of the most popular early machines, such as the original IBM PC and the 1984 Apple Macintosh, because there are just too many of them. Scarcity counts, which helps explain why the most valuable collectible is the Apple I. Introduced by Steven Jobs and Stephen Wozniak in 1976, the Apple I was nothing more than a circuit board. It had no keyboard, no monitor, not even a case. It sold for $666, and only a few hundred were produced. A well-preserved Apple I can fetch as much as $12,000 today, sometimes more. An Apple I signed by Jobs and Wozniak sold for $22,000 at a fund-raiser auction for the Computer Museum several months ago, Bell said. That kind of appreciation has attracted the attention of even non-techie collectors. "I got a call from an investment advisor for a Wall Street banker," Bell said. "He asked: 'Should I get him into collecting old computers? Will they increase in value more than art?' I said, 'I don't know--I'm not a dealer.' " In fact, there aren't any prominent dealers of antique computers, at least not yet. But a few collectors are hoping to change that, including David Greelish, founder of the Historical Computer Society in Jacksonville, Fla. Greelish, a computer repairman, has spent about $2,600 in recent years building a collection of 35 computers, mostly by trolling for bargains on the Internet. He uses search engines such as Yahoo to root out online classified ads for Altairs and other vintage machines, and he keeps an eye on alt.folklore.computers, a newsgroup where history buffs hang out. "Ultimately, I would like to see (the Historical Computer Society) grow and publish magazines and books," he said. "I'd like to start displaying our collection and even restoring computers for sale." Greelish and others said would-be collectors should look for machines that look clean, have all the original equipment and documentation and still run. A number of guidebooks are available, including Stan Veit's "History of the Personal Computer," published by WorldComm in Asheville, N.C., and "A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators," published by Krause Publications in Iola, Wis. Experts urge caution, however. There's no guarantee that old computers will grow in value, and they are very difficult to maintain. "If you've never opened up your computer and looked inside, this is probably not the collectible for you," Bell said. Instead, experts say, this is a hobby better left to people who were enthralled by the recent PBS documentary "Triumph of the Nerds," people who still have a soft spot for monochrome terminals, "Chiclet" keyboards and the odd shapes of the early machines. But even among techies, there are plenty of people who scoff at this new fad, including Kim Nelson, service manager at ACP Superstore in Santa Ana. Founded 20 years ago, ACP is one of the oldest computer stores in Southern California, holds swap meets that attract legions of collectors, and might be one of the region's best unofficial museums. The store's top shelves are crammed with artifacts of computer history, although Nelson calls it junk. "Isn't it amazing that we have computer folklore now," he said, walking with a reporter along rows of vintage Commodores, Imsais and Tandys. "That's kind of sad when you think about it. Seems to me there are things that are a lot more important." But as he uttered those words, service technician John Krill walked by and surveyed the line of creaky machines. Almost against his will, Nelson was sucked into an episode of technology reverie. "Look at that Kaypro," Krill said. "That company grew so fast they were warehousing their inventory in tents." "Weren't they the ones that had the fire too?" asked Nelson, perking up just a bit and eager to demonstrate his techno-trivia prowess. The conversation drifted from machine to machine. "When I was in college, I would just leave my Osborne up in the library," Krill said with a laugh, recalling the immobility of the first portable computer. "The damned thing weighed 27 pounds. I didn't want to lug it around." Fifteen minutes passed before the two realized that their walk down memory lane might have strained the attention span of their guest. "That's enough, John," Nelson finally said with an embarrassed grin. "You're boring him." Greg Miller can be reached via e-mail at greg.miller atimes.com (BEGIN TEXT OF INFOBOX / INFOGRAPHIC) Computer Collectibles Here are some of the PCs attracting the attention of nostalgic techies: Model: Apple I Year introduced: 1976 Original price: $666 Current value: $10,000-$12,000 * Model: Mark-8 Year introduced: 1974 Original price: $250 Current value: $3,500-$4,000 * Model: Scelbi 8H Year introduced: 1973 Original price: $440 Current value: $1,200-$1,500 * Model: Altair 8800 Year introduced: 1975 Original price: $395 Current value: $1,200-$1,500 * Model: Imsai 8080 Year introduced: 1975 Original price: $440 Current value: $400-$600 * Model: Apple II Year introduced: 1977 Original price: $1,195 Current value: $200-$400 * Model: Osborne I Year introduced: 1981 Original price: $1,795 Current value: $200-$300 Descriptions: Apple I: With no monitor, no keyboard and no case, the Apple I was little more than a circuit board. Only a few hundred were produced. Mark-8: A kit computer that was the subject of the first magazine article describing how to build a computer. The article appeared in Radio Electronics Magazine in 1974. Scelbi: Predated the Altair and was the first computer based on a microprocessor advertised for sale. Only a small number was made. Altair 8800: Programmed by switches, the Altair 8800 had no keyboard, no monitor and just 256 bytes of memory. But it is widely regarded as the first mass-market personal computer. The Altair, based on an Intel processor, started a craze when it appeared on the cover of Popular Electronics magazine in January 1975. Imsai 8080: Modeled on the Altair, the Imsai had several technological advances and a more polished look. Had no keyboard or monitor but was briefly the fastest-selling personal computer. Apple II: This is the machine that launched the company--and the personal computer industry. Apple II computers came with a keyboard, monitor and two disk drives. Most important, they ran VisiCalc, the original spreadsheet program that was the personal computer's "killer application." Osborne I: Considered the first portable computer, even though it weighed about 30 pounds and was the size of a suitcase. It had a 5-inch screen, two floppy disk drives and 64K of RAM. Sources: Stan Veit's "History of the Personal Computer," published by WorldComm, Asheville, N.C.; David Greelish, president, Historical Computer Society, Jacksonville, Fla.; "A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators," published by Krause Publications in Iola, Wis. AL SCHABEN / Los Angeles Times > ---------- > From: Alexios Chouchoulas[SMTP:alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, April 21, 1997 4:53 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and > Computers) > > On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > | Aha! You have a point! Anyone remember the time when > > Osborne-1s were > > | supposedly rare and were priced at around $1,000-$10,000? Ha > > ha. Nice joke. > > > > This stems from a California reporter who got confused when talking > to > > collectors and printed in the newspaper that an Osborne 1 sold for > over > > $10,000. The collectors were actually talking about an Apple I, not > an > > Osborne 1 (an easy confusion for a layman to make). > > Ok, that would make sense. It seems that this has become some sort > of > urban legend, though -- I remember posts in afc like "I have an > Osborne-1. > Make me an offer about $5000." :-) > > > --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. > ------------------------------- > Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' > alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk > The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, > axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk > From marcw at lightside.com Mon Apr 21 15:42:20 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: looking for Message-ID: <199704220045.RAA29562@covina.lightside.com> > I'm looking for an external scsi disk case, preferably set up for 2 > 5.25 inch 1/2 height devices. This is to attach to my second(!) apple2gs > with a cdrom and a moderate sized hard disk. I'm told this kind of beast > is common around SUN machines, and I know it's common around Digital > Equipment machines as well. Anyone got an extra box lying around in > their collection that they'd love to sell me? > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@calico.litterbox.com A few catalogues sell external SCSI cases in varying sizes. Not the cheapest things it seems. Sometimes more than PC tower cases. Anyhind Jameco (800-831-4242) and JDR Microdevices (800-538-5000) sell them. They all include power supplies. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com (finger at: marcw@mail.lightside.com) marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Apr 21 20:00:55 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2049A1EB9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: Fun article ;) I'm just curious - have any of you (with the possible exception of the apple I) ever seen anyone selling these models at these prices much less purchased one for so much? Do any of these warrant such a price for you? $400 for an Apple II? $300 for an Osborne? I bought an Apple II+ with 3 Disk IIs, color monitor, and box of accessories for $50 - in 1988! I get nervous when journalists start quoting prices on old computers. There are still a number of machines I want in my collection - but only if I can continue to find them for $5. Maybe I'm just nuts ;). Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw > Here are some of the PCs attracting the attention of nostalgic > techies: > > Model: Apple I > Current value: $10,000-$12,000 > > Model: Mark-8 > Current value: $3,500-$4,000 > > Model: Scelbi 8H > Current value: $1,200-$1,500 > > Model: Altair 8800 > Current value: $1,200-$1,500 > > Model: Imsai 8080 > Current value: $400-$600 > > Model: Apple II > Current value: $200-$400 > > Model: Osborne I > Current value: $200-$300 From pcoad at crl.com Mon Apr 21 20:35:11 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:08 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > Fun article ;) > > I'm just curious - have any of you (with the possible exception of the > apple I) ever seen anyone selling these models at these prices much less > purchased one for so much? Do any of these warrant such a price for > you? $400 for an Apple II? $300 for an Osborne? I bought an Apple II+ > with 3 Disk IIs, color monitor, and box of accessories for $50 - > in 1988! > I've never purchased one for these prices. I've paid less than $200 for my entire collection (excluding items bought new). I have seen an Apple I for sale in the San Jose Mercury News for $25,000 (might have been $50,000, I can't remember for sure, but it was big bucks) IIRC. Someone in one of the forsale newsgroups was selling a Sun 1 and had offers in the range of $700-1200. (Of course I found this out after I offered him $50 for it :-(). > I get nervous when journalists start quoting prices on old computers. > There are still a number of machines I want in my collection - but > only if I can continue to find them for $5. Maybe I'm just nuts ;). > One of the strong points for collecting is that does not have to cost much to build up a nice collection. At $5 I can justify bringing home just about anything. At $200+ I better be able to justify the value of the machine. One good thing to note, I was in a "real" antique shop this weekend, and there was not a computer or computer related item in the entire place. With any luck there will be a few more years before the mainstream gets ahold of them. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tight-wad computer collector. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Apr 21 20:45:00 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2049AB002@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | I'm just curious - have any of you (with the possible exception of the | apple I) ever seen anyone selling these models at these prices much less | purchased one for so much? Do any of these warrant such a price for | you? $400 for an Apple II? $300 for an Osborne? I bought an Apple II+ | with 3 Disk IIs, color monitor, and box of accessories for $50 - | in 1988! Well... here are my thoughts: > > Here are some of the PCs attracting the attention of nostalgic > > techies: > > > > Model: Apple I > > Current value: $10,000-$12,000 > Unverified, the only high-dollar example I know of is the Computer Bowl auction unit. I know someone who actually has two Apple I's, and since I actually have more than one Altair, I'm trying to talk him into our becoming about the only two people with one of each. Wish me luck! > > Model: Mark-8 > > Current value: $3,500-$4,000 > Highly dubious, since I have never seen, and probably will never see, one of these for sale. Heck, it wasn't even a genuine production machine, it was mostly just instructions on how to build one from scratch. Who knows what it would even look like? Every one was different. Since most if not all of the period's TTL stuff is still available, you could build something today and call it a Mark 8. Most people looking for an Altair would say "A Mark what?" > > Model: Scelbi 8H > > Current value: $1,200-$1,500 > Why this should be lower priced than the Mark-8 considering that it came out earlier ('73 vs. '74, according to Byte), is beyond me. The same comment as for the Mark-8 applies. The Mark-8 and Scelbi are sort of like the guy who almost got credit for inventing the telephone. It's doubtful that history will ever be rewritten sufficiently for there to be a significant interest in these machines. Not that _I_ wouldn't buy one, mind you... not for these dollars of course, but for a goodly sum. > > > Model: Altair 8800 > > Current value: $1,200-$1,500 > This might actually be a bit low, considering the amount of 'Altair Fever' around today. You should see the number of 'Altair Wanted' posts on various sections of Usenet. Geez! Is it worth it? I'd say, sure it is! My dad's '57 fuelie 'Vette is just as primitive by today's standards, but just like the Altair, it looks fantastic and it's a piece of history. It darn well deserves its more-than-a-new-one price tag. Of course, my dad restored it himself, since he always wanted one when he was a kid... sure sounds like his son's relationship with antique computers! > > > Model: Imsai 8080 > > Current value: $400-$600 > This is accurate, perhaps a bit low as well. They're pretty rare (one less in circulation as of this weekend - thanks Tim!) > > > Model: Apple II > > Current value: $200-$400 > Well, we all know this is a joke. The highest price I've seen for a plain // is about $60. I'd probably pay $200+ for a pristine one in the original box with manuals, etc. but I don't think that's what they mean. Of course, I haven't been able to find a nice one myself, so... > > Model: Osborne I > > Current value: $200-$300 > Tough call. It's reasonably, but certainly not vanishingly, rare (I've owned three at various times) and I'm sure there are folks in the world that would pay this, but I generally see them going for around $100, and more like $15 at swap meets or thrift stores. Kai From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri Apr 18 07:38:54 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Extra Stuff Message-ID: Here are a few extra things I need to part with to make space: 1) TI-99/4A, silver/black, with power supply. No RF modulator. works great....$15 + shipping 2) Amiga 1000, main unit only..no keyboard. Bad floppy and missing the cover which goes over the RAM expansion on the front of the unit. Also is missing the 68000 CPU. This system is said to have worked ok, but I bought it for it's keyboard and it is just sitting here. I really hate to trash it, so anyone who is interested can have it for the cost of the shipping. An interesting thing about it is that it, like all A1000's, has the underside of the upper casing 'signed' by all it's designers, including Jay Miner. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128, C128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Apr 21 21:48:09 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2049A1EB9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Apr 21, 97 05:32:21 pm Message-ID: <9704220148.AA27458@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 520 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970421/0e9f8e73/attachment.ksh From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 21 21:05:05 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > Fun article ;) > > I'm just curious - have any of you (with the possible exception of the > apple I) ever seen anyone selling these models at these prices much less > purchased one for so much? Do any of these warrant such a price for > you? $400 for an Apple II? $300 for an Osborne? I bought an Apple II+ > with 3 Disk IIs, color monitor, and box of accessories for $50 - > in 1988! Yeah, but that's the ][+, which are easier to find than the ][. I've heard some people mention that the ][ is harder to find, and so far I believe them because I've hardly ever seen one advertised. A guy at my work is supposed to give me his, which he says is a ][, but he's not always all there, so it could just be a ][+. But I would say a ][ is probably worth about $100 with some accessories, like a disk drive and monitor and the language card. > I get nervous when journalists start quoting prices on old computers. > There are still a number of machines I want in my collection - but > only if I can continue to find them for $5. Maybe I'm just nuts ;). I don't think you're nuts. I think the idiots who paid the prices that the journalist quoted are nuts. Or perhaps the journalist himself is a dope. You know how these stupid reporters always get their facts screwed up. But I agree with you. Its great going out and picking up systems for $5-$20 a pop. I would just give up if I had to pay $50, $100, $200 and up for what really does amount to "junk" (although wonderful, beautiful, sometimes bring a tear to your eye junk). I don't know if anyone else here uses auction web, but its both a blessing and a curse. Its a blessing because a lot of people sell off their good old computer stuff there, and it usually is working stuff. Its a curse because then people who a lot of times don't realize what they're bidding on (Sure *I* know a commodore 64 is practically worthless, but not other morons) run the price up to ridiculous levels. I've seen commodore 64s go for $20 and up with some accessories such as disk drives. I've seen atari 2600 carts go for $10 EACH for some "rarer" ones. In a lot of cases with the carts, some dolt runs it up just because he never heard of it or had it when he was a kid, so he thinks its rare and decides $10 is a good price, whereas I would've had it for $2-$3 if it wasn't for him. BAH! That's why I'd rather just spend a weekend at a flea market. Its funner to come across stuff sitting in a pile of junk and then haggling the seller down until he breaks. Then going home and finding out the stuff works, and it was a good day. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon Apr 21 21:23:12 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: PETS & the Silly Game References: <199704210702.AAA05904@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <335C2110.B9F@goldrush.com> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:21:01 -0400 (EDT) > From: Doug Spence > To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Subject: PET stuff > Does anyone out there know much about the old PET 2001 machines? I know pretty much PET software & usage, and have a bunch of good books to help me on other aspects... ;) > I received a PET a couple of years ago, in which all of the 6550 SRAMs > were fried. I replaced them with the chips from another PET 2001 (one > with the miniature keyboard, from 1977) and the system worked fine. > Does anyone know how all of the memory chips could've been killed? > I tried them in various patterns in the sockets, and it does seem as if > all 16 of them are fried. Never heard of that, but I did have a friend who tried expanding PET memory by piggybacking RAM chips ; that fried his... (beware, he's still out there...) > Anyway, is it still possible to get 6550s anywhere? And if not, is there > a replacement that could be used? MOS technologies found out they wern't good RAM manufacturers, the comptible and available chip number you seek is 2114. Which I have found in a Jameco Catalog (415-592-8097) > Even better: Can I simply replace the 6550s with another type of chip and > get more RAM in the system? Most of my software works in 8K, but I do > have some music files that require more. (I have one of those external > music boards that plugs into the cassette2 and user ports, that delivers > four voices.) Wow! An MTU sound board! Got to hear a demonstration of it some 15 years ago, pretty nice sound! One of these days I might come across one of 'em for my own. Back to RAM, from the next paragraph I would say that you can add via that expansion board. But just in case I'm mistaken, here is something I found in Nick Hampshire's PET Revealed: ... The old 8K machines used 4K bit static RAMs, these were one of two types the 6550 and the 2114. Both these chips are functionally indentical in most respects since they are organised as 1K by 4 bits. The latest versions of the static RAM 8K machines used the 6550.... ... The new 32K and 16K dynamic RAM machines use the 4116 memory chip and the dynamic 8K the 4108. These two RAM chips are pin compatable, with the 4116 having 16K bits of memory and the 4108 8K bits. This is useful since it allows the same circuit board to be used for all sizes of machine. Memory on the 16 and 32K machines is organised as two banks each of 16K bytes, only one bank being implemented in the 16K.... > Now, another question. With that same PET, came an expansion board of > some kind. Its like a daughterboard, physically mounted on posts above > the motherboard, but connected via the memory expansion connector on the > side. > > It appears (yes) to be a memory board, with 16 RAM chips on it. At least, > they look like they could be RAM chips, judging by the traces on the > board. However, I've never seen RAM chips with gold contacts and gold > plates on their backs before, as six of these chips have, so I'm wondering > if this could be more than just a memory board. Sounds like an Expandamem or ExpandaPET to me, I have the docs for it, I think it has schematics and stuff. Mine have the same chips too, look like tiny ROMs or EPROMs.. > The board is dead, BTW. The PET won't operate with the board plugged in. > It just comes up with a screenful of garbage characters. [clip] > Both connectors on the cable that leads from the expansion board to the > motherboard are noticeably burnt. In both cases, the burn marks surround > the pin that connects to the black wire. OUCH!!!! That's gotta hurt... Hope you figure out what did that. > > The only identifying mark on the board is the text: > R 3014 > rev. > C > COPYRIGHT 1978 R.C.Factor My ExpandaPET book has (c) 1979 Computhink (yours could be an earlier version?), also my board has four breadboard (edgecard) sockets to add devices like disk drive controller cards and the like. > Does anyone have any better guesses than me as to its function? (Can the > edge connector on the side of the PET be used for anything other than RAM > expansion?) The only other thing I could think of it being (if it had a patch into the monitor connector) would be a Visible Memory (hi-res graphics) board. But I doubt that. Let me know If you want a copy of the documentation I have for my board to see if it will help. > Doug Spence > ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > ------------------------------ > > On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > > Hey, let's have a contest. Let's see who can score the best lot of > > > classic computers this weekend. We can score each other based on the > > > type and age of the computers/software/accessories we got, then tally up > > > the points and whoever has the highest score gets a pat on the back. > What I bought: Atari 1200 XL, 1050 Disk Drive, and Supra Atari 300 baud modem (all sans power supplies *sigh*) for $15 at a flea market (need power supplies to test them still), and a (working!) Apple ImageWriter II for $14.95 at a thrift shop. Software. What I passed up: 2 CoCo 3s (bare), one for $15 one unknown 1 CoCo dual 5.25" Disk Drive price unknown 1 black/silver TI 99/4a (bare) $10 1 Atari 800 (bare, but had BASIC cart inside) $10 Plus/4, C-64, an MPS 801, tons of IBM clones didn't bother pricing. Oh! Last week I happend upon a Panasonic MSX unit! Looked interesting, unfortunately the guy couldn't sell it cause 'they haven't decided how much to price it' (hence it would probably be expensive), sure looked neat, had alot of I/O and noted a switch to change tape baud rates. (they had the tape program/books already out on the floor just waiting for kids to tear them apart.) Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From BigLouS at aol.com Mon Apr 21 22:34:30 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Extra Stuff Message-ID: <970421233404_-99053863@emout04.mail.aol.com> I'll take the 1000. I have a 68000 chip sitting around from my old Amiga and the drives are pretty easy to find. If it's still available let me know what the shipping is. Regards, Lou From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 21 22:56:26 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: atari printers Message-ID: <199704220356.VAA04625@calico.litterbox.com> FYI: Alltronics is selling the Atari 1020 color printer for 15 dollars. www.alltronics.com - they're in San Jose, California. Thought you Atari fans might want to know. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri Apr 18 12:21:49 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Extra Stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 22-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >I'll take the 1000. I have a 68000 chip sitting around from my old Amiga and >the drives are pretty easy to find. If it's still available let me know what >the shipping is. Lou, Just email me your address, and I'll figure out what the postage will be. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128, C128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From zmerch at northernway.net Tue Apr 22 08:11:47 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: atari printers In-Reply-To: <199704220356.VAA04625@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970422091147.007ce930@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Jim said: >FYI: Alltronics is selling the Atari 1020 color printer for 15 dollars. >www.alltronics.com - they're in San Jose, California. Thought you Atari fans >might want to know. FYI also: Tandy still sells pens for that printer, as it used the same internal workings as the Tandy CGP-115... IIRC $2.95 per tube of 3 pens, either 3 black, or one each red, blue & green. They have to be special ordered, but they ship right to your door for another $1. I just tested my 1020 with my new pens, and they work great! HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue Apr 22 12:35:34 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: atari printers In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970422091147.007ce930@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: Those arent the same pens that the Commodore 1520 plotter uses are they? Les From william at ans.net Tue Apr 22 12:46:51 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: DEC RK07 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704221746.AA15520@interlock.ans.net> I am going to try to fetch a pair of these beasts soon, and have questions... Does anyone have a decent estimate for their weight? How can I secure the heads for shipment? William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Apr 22 19:00:15 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: DEC RK07 questions In-Reply-To: <199704221746.AA15520@interlock.ans.net>; from "William Donzelli" at Apr 22, 97 1:46 pm Message-ID: <199704221800.3418@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > I am going to try to fetch a pair of these beasts soon, and have questions... > > Does anyone have a decent estimate for their weight? Yes, very heavy. I seem to recall reading something like 150kg in the manual, but that included the stand and side panels. The drive alone probably weighs about 75-100kg, and takes 2 people to lift. The do come apart, from the top downwards. I can talk you through it if you like, but you'll need a good toolkit to do it. The basic sequence is : Remove rear cover, frontpanel, disk cover, disk cartridge holder, filter, fan assembly, cardcage, PSU, mains input bracket, main chassis, power transformer. Each bit is then liftable. > > How can I secure the heads for shipment? These drives _should_ be autolocking. There's a solenoid on the underside of the positioner to do this. Personally, I'd remove the rear cover (2 screws) and check that the positioner wouldn't move forwards. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue Apr 22 13:03:55 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer [fair?] Message-ID: Hi, I ve never been to this Trenton Computer Fair. What can I expect for things such as parking? Will I have to walk a mile and a half to get there? What is it really? Is it like a giant flea market? Is there admission? It will still be there on Sunday right? What kind of stuff do they have there? Is it all old stuff? Is it all new stuff? Do these people try and "rip" you off? [Im asking because Id like to pick up a CP/M machine here and dont want to pay $100 for it] Sory for all the questions! Les PS Anyone know how to get there from the Philly area? :) [never been to Trenton] From william at ans.net Tue Apr 22 13:30:45 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704221830.AA17914@interlock.ans.net> > Unfortunately, I don't know any scrap dealers around here, so I can't put > your technique to the test. I'm content going to car boot sales weekly. At > an average of two machines per week, it's fine by me (I mainly collect > micros, so trips to scrap dealers may be an overkill). I do not know what your scrap men are like, and anyway, most do not deal with home micros (old workstations, on the other hand, are starting to show up in large numbers). I suppose junk yard surfing is better for those into minis and such. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Tue Apr 22 13:47:14 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: DEC RK07 questions In-Reply-To: <199704221746.AA15520@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > I am going to try to fetch a pair of these beasts soon, and have questions... > > Does anyone have a decent estimate for their weight? > > How can I secure the heads for shipment? With an arc welder. :-)} -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From william at ans.net Tue Apr 22 13:36:22 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Scrap Dealers (was Re: Collecting) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204998715@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199704221836.AA18213@interlock.ans.net> > Here's a list of scrap dealers who buy obsolete computer equipment: > > Windfield Alloy, Inc. Lawrence, MA 800-626-1230/508-689-2470 Local > ComService Enterprises, Brooklyn, NY 718-332-2300/718-332-4471 Fax > Silicon Salvage Inc, Anaheim, CA 714-523-2425/714-523-2552 Fax > Texas Recycling & Refining, Houston, TX 713-443-2070/713-443-3973 Fax > Iowa Electronic Recovery, 800-232-2591/319-337-9548 Fax > Metaltech, 800-435-8636/603-524-2873 Fax > EnviRoSYS, 800-PRO-JUNK, surplus@crazybob.com I have had better luck with the independent father 'n son yards. Most of the bigger ones (not all!) can be unfreindly. Gary Green has an EXCELLENT junkyard near Baltimore (I will get more details). He has lots of BIG stuff (some quite old - a Univac tape drive from the late 1960's was the oldest thing I saw), and prices seem to be decent. Most things, however, are missing hard disks (ex NSA stuff), and too much has been out in the rain. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Tue Apr 22 14:15:24 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer [fair?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > Hi, I > ve never been to this Trenton Computer Fair. > What can I expect for things such as parking? > Will I have to walk a mile and a half to get there? The later you get there, the farther away you park. There are shuttle buses from the more distant parking areas. You might want something with wheels to help carry your loot. And those light-duty luggage thingies just don't seem to have the load capacity. > What is it really? Is it like a giant flea market? Two large parking lots are essentially a flea market, with folks selling new and used gear. In the gym it's all new stuff like a regular sales show. I spend most of my time wandering the parking lots. > Is there admission? It will still be there on > Sunday right? What kind of stuff do they have there? Admission is $10 on Saturday for both days, $5 on Sunday. My fiance and I already have our motel reservation for Friday and Saturday night so as to get an early start. They've got all sorts of stuff for sale at the swap meet. The four years I've been going I've seen damned near everything. And I always start at the wrong end and miss by minutes the deal I would have killed for. (Which is the wrong end? Whichever end I start from. By Definition.) > Is it all old stuff? Is it all new stuff? Do > these people try and "rip" you off? [Im asking because > Id like to pick up a CP/M machine here and dont want to > pay $100 for it] Sory for all the questions! There's new stuff. There's old stuff. The vendors are human. They'll charge what they think they can get. Sunday afternoon the prices drop. And the dumpsters are filled with the stuff folks don't want to drag back home and hobbyists going for those special bargains. > Anyone know how to get there from the Philly area? :) > [never been to Trenton] It's not actually in Trenton. It's at Mercer County Community College. Can't help much with directions, as I've never been to Philadelphia in my life and I'm coming from up near Newark. There is a web site, that has directions and maps. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Apr 22 19:34:24 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Shopper Wanted for Trenton Computer Fest Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2049E0DCA@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Hi all, I'll pay a generous finder's fee & shipping for anyone who wants to keep an eye out at the TCF for the small list of machines I'm still looking for. If interested, please email for the list. thanks much, Kai From garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu Tue Apr 22 17:59:31 1997 From: garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu (Gary S. Katz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Scrap Dealers (was Re: Collecting) In-Reply-To: <199704221836.AA18213@interlock.ans.net> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204998715@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199704230259.WAA22763@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu> > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:36:22 -0400 (EDT) > From: William Donzelli > Subject: Re: Scrap Dealers (was Re: Collecting) > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >SNIP< > Gary Green has an EXCELLENT junkyard near Baltimore (I will get more > details). He has lots of BIG stuff (some quite old - a Univac tape drive > from the late 1960's was the oldest thing I saw), and prices seem to be > decent. Most things, however, are missing hard disks (ex NSA stuff), and > too much has been out in the rain. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net Please do post this information. I will be moving to Baltimore in June and would be interested in scavenging a bit when we get there. -gk ***************************************************** Gary S. Katz 626C OEH University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA 15213 (412) 624-9347 voice (412) 624-5407 fax ***************************************************** From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Apr 24 06:38:21 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: PETS & the Silly Game In-Reply-To: <335C2110.B9F@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > I know pretty much PET software & usage, and have a bunch of good books > to help me on other aspects... ;) There used to be a copy of Osborne's "PET/CBM Personal Computer Guide" around here someplace, but I suspect my brother took it with him when he moved out, even though he's a C64 man. (Darn!) I really need to find a good shop with old computer books in it. All of the second-hand bookstores I've been to specifically state that they don't keep computer books or magazines older than 5 years (or so) old. :/ > Never heard of that, but I did have a friend who tried expanding PET > memory by piggybacking RAM chips ; that fried his... (beware, he's > still out there...) Interesting. I performed the piggyback RAM hack on my Amiga 1000 (back when it was worth real money) and that seems to still be holding up. I *don't* want to do that to my PET, though. :) (In fact, in retrospect, I wish I hadn't done it to my Amiga, either - I should've bought an Insider board instead and keept the Amiga in its original condition. I wasn't a collector yet, though. :) ) > > Anyway, is it still possible to get 6550s anywhere? And if not, is there > > a replacement that could be used? > > MOS technologies found out they wern't good RAM manufacturers, the > comptible and available chip number you seek is 2114. Which I have > found in a Jameco Catalog (415-592-8097) OK, cool. I'm actually need some 2114s for repairs to a VIC-20 3K Expander cartridge, too, so I can just buy more of them when I actually get myself to a place that sells them. BTW: Who here thinks I'm crazy for wanting to run an "old-time BBS" off a VIC-20? Who here thinks it's impossible? :) > Wow! An MTU sound board! Got to hear a demonstration of it some 15 > years ago, pretty nice sound! One of these days I might come across one > of 'em for my own. The local high school had three PETs with these sound boards, and this is one of them. (Curiously, at the time, the "Computer Science" department of the same high school only had a single TRS-80 Model I and an Altair 8800.) The music teacher wrote software to teach scales and chords, in BASIC, based on the Cursor #4 tape's cover program. I found copies of these things in my brother's cassette collection (I was still in elementary school at the time the PETs were in use). The sound generated by the board *is* nice. I had an online friend over during the holidays, who collects old synthesizers, and he was quite impressed with the thing. Too bad I couldn't find the cassette with the professional music software on it (I forget what it's called) that lets you compose the music on the staff on the screen, and that scrolls the music as it plays. It's really impressive for an 8K machine! > Back to RAM, from the next paragraph I would say that you can add via > that expansion > board. But just in case I'm mistaken, here is something I found in > Nick Hampshire's > PET Revealed: > > ... The old 8K machines used 4K bit static RAMs, these were one of two > types the 6550 and the 2114. Both these chips are functionally > indentical in most respects since they are organised as 1K by 4 bits. > The latest versions of the static RAM 8K machines used the 6550.... Interesting that he says the latest versions of the 8K machines use the 6550... It's possible the old 8K here with the miniature multicoloured keyboard (love that thing!) had its RAM replaced at some point. It was, after all, an abused school machine, and the lid wasn't screwed down. (The sockets in that particular machine are so bad there's no point in screwing the lid down! Having to re-seat chips is a regular occurrence.) > ... The new 32K and 16K dynamic RAM machines use the 4116 memory chip > and the dynamic 8K the 4108. These two RAM chips are pin compatable, > with the 4116 having 16K bits of memory and the 4108 8K bits. This is > useful since it allows the same circuit board to be used for all sizes > of machine. Memory on the 16 and 32K machines is organised as two banks > each of 16K bytes, only one bank being implemented in the 16K.... So I guess Commodore stopped drilling holes in motherboards to prevent upgrade? :) I was hoping these numbers would match something on that expansion board, but they don't. :/ The majority of the non-MOSTEK chips that appear to be memory chips, are marked with MM5298J-4A, one is MM5290J-3, another is MM5290N-3... oops! I take the last paragraph back! One of the non-gold-plated MOSTEK chips is a 4116! We have identification! :) Assuming all these chips are the same, this was a 16K RAM board. This'd be nice to get running. > Sounds like an Expandamem or ExpandaPET to me, I have the docs for it, I > think it has schematics and stuff. Mine have the same chips too, look > like tiny ROMs or EPROMs.. Yeah, those chips are bizarre. > > The board is dead, BTW. The PET won't operate with the board plugged in. > > It just comes up with a screenful of garbage characters. > [clip] > > Both connectors on the cable that leads from the expansion board to the > > motherboard are noticeably burnt. In both cases, the burn marks surround > > the pin that connects to the black wire. > > OUCH!!!! That's gotta hurt... Hope you figure out what did that. I doubt I will. Presumably it was caused by some kind of accident, not through some fault in the PET, because the PET the board came in has been running for a couple of years (with the other PET's RAM in it) and hasn't experienced any problems. The memory board, though, is of course quite suspect. Perhaps I should replace those capacitors and regulators before I replace the RAM and try to fire it up again? (How would one test a capacitor to see if it's OK?) > > The only identifying mark on the board is the text: > > R 3014 > > rev. > > C > > COPYRIGHT 1978 R.C.Factor > > My ExpandaPET book has (c) 1979 Computhink (yours could be an earlier > version?), also my board has four breadboard (edgecard) sockets to add > devices like disk drive controller cards and the like. There aren't any extra connectors on my board. The only connectors are for power in, power out, and the one that plugs into the side expansion connector. > The only other thing I could think of it being (if it had a patch into > the monitor connector) would be a Visible Memory (hi-res graphics) > board. But I doubt that. Oooh... I wish. :) I didn't think you could even get such a thing for a 2001, I thought graphics boards were the domain of the 8032 and like systems. No idea why I'd think there'd be such limitations on one PET and not on another, though. :) > Let me know If you want a copy of the documentation I have for my board > to see if it will help. I'll pass on that (for now, anyway) as it seems to be a simple RAM board. If I replace all the parts, it should work, and presumable there's nothing I'd really have to know about to use it. :) BTW, there's also another piece of bizarre PET expansion around the house somewhere... Another 16K of expansion, actually. That's what those large music files were created with. But the thing is HUGE and it consists of exposed circuit boards, so I didn't particularly want to use it in its current state. This memory expansion has its own power supply. The cable from the expansion connector on the side of the PET goes to the top edge of a large board that is in turn plugged into a socket on a long expansion bus type of thing (with the Vector Graphics label on it). There is another board of equal size to the first also plugged into this expansion bus, right beside it. There are only the two sockets on the long PCB of the expansion bus, but it'd be easy to add more sockets. I should dig this thing out to see if there's anything else interesting to say about it. Seems like an awful lot of space for 16K. My little internal board would be much nicer. This strange contraption wouldn't be some kind of interface between the PET and an S100 bus, would it? (THAT would be cool!) How would I know an S100 bus if I saw one? :) > Larry Anderson > > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare > Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From starling at umr.edu Thu Apr 24 11:04:08 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Old Computer Books (was Re: Pets & Silly Game) In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Apr 24, 97 07:38:21 am Message-ID: <199704241604.LAA03521@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > There used to be a copy of Osborne's "PET/CBM Personal Computer Guide" > around here someplace, but I suspect my brother took it with him when he > moved out, even though he's a C64 man. (Darn!) I really need to find a > good shop with old computer books in it. All of the second-hand > bookstores I've been to specifically state that they don't keep computer > books or magazines older than 5 years (or so) old. :/ I've found that one of the best sources for old computer books and magazines is often overlooked... the LIBRARY. Most public libraries have a nice collection of books on old personal computers from the 1st wave of PC popularity (early 80s). I know that my hometown (Austin, TX) has a huge collection of books with titles like "6502 Assembly Projects" and "1001 things to do with your PET". Plus, most libraries archive magazines. My university has a full set of many computer magazines that have been around since the 70s such as Byte. However, if you're looking to own the books or magazines, this doesn't help. But if you're just looking for info or wanting to get some kicks by reading old stuff, your local public or university library is a great place to start. From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Thu Apr 24 12:34:56 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: A Few More Items on Auctionweb Message-ID: <335F99C0.661A@oboe.calpoly.edu> I put a few more items on Auctionweb. My apologies to those who aren't interested but I did receive quite a few positive responses to my last post. There are pictures of most of the items posted also. Tandy 1000 HX system, 3.5 FD (photo) Current bid: $15.50 Auction ends on: 04/29/97, 17:19:16 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=ruc07286 Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer I (photo) Current bid: $5.00 Auction ends on: 04/30/97, 00:22:16 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=diy3257 Radio Shack TRS-80 5 MB Ext. Hard Drive (pic) Bidding starts at: $3.00 Auction ends on: 04/30/97, 00:34:36 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=qhp59201 Lot of 2 Commodore 1541 Drives (white) Bidding starts at: $3.00 Auction ends on: 04/30/97, 00:41:24 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=gcr4972 Orig. Mouse for Macintosh 128/512/Plus (pic) Current bid: $3.00 Auction ends on: 04/30/97, 00:54:21 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=fgt955 From groberts at mitre.org Thu Apr 24 12:43:29 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Old Computer Books (was Re: Pets & Silly Game) In-Reply-To: <199704241604.LAA03521@saucer.cc.umr.edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970424134329.007b5660@postman> At 11:04 AM 4/24/97 -0500, Starling wrote: >I've found that one of the best sources for old computer books and >magazines is often overlooked... the LIBRARY... However, if you're >looking to own the books or magazines, this doesn't help. actually my experience has been the Library *is* a good place to find old computer books to *own*. our local libraries routinely sell off older books that they don't feel are pertinent any more. they cost 50 cents (paperback) or $1 (hardback)... so stop in at your local library's book sale booth and you might pick up a classic or two. - gfr +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Apr 24 13:08:38 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Old Computer Books (was Re: Pets & Silly Game) In-Reply-To: <199704241604.LAA03521@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: I would say that the library is the best place to find these things. I found a Vic-20 Programmers Reference Guide in my local one. They even let me have it for $5! Les From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri Apr 18 19:38:35 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: PETS & the Silly Game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 24-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >BTW: Who here thinks I'm crazy for wanting to run an "old-time BBS" off a >VIC-20? Who here thinks it's impossible? :) Doug, There are 4 BBS's locally running on the C-64 using the 'Color-64' BBS program. Of course, they're mainly geared towards the Commodore crowd and the C-64, but they are quite interesting. One of them is the official board of the local Commodore 64/128 user group. It still shows people are still running BBS's using the older hardware though! Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128, C128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From transit at primenet.com Thu Apr 24 23:54:24 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Old Computer Books (was Re: Pets & Silly Game) In-Reply-To: <199704241604.LAA03521@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: > I've found that one of the best sources for old computer books and > magazines is often overlooked... the LIBRARY. Most public libraries have > a nice collection of books on old personal computers from the 1st wave of > PC popularity (early 80s). [...] > However, if you're looking to own the books or magazines, this doesn't > help. But if you're just looking for info or wanting to get some kicks > by reading old stuff, your local public or university library is a great > place to start. > Of course, many libraries do hold "book sales" in order to dispose of "obsolete" materials . . .I've snagged several old computer books from public library book sales. From dastar at crl.com Fri Apr 25 01:54:17 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: PETS & the Silly Game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > Interesting. I performed the piggyback RAM hack on my Amiga 1000 (back > when it was worth real money) and that seems to still be holding up. I > *don't* want to do that to my PET, though. :) (In fact, in retrospect, I > wish I hadn't done it to my Amiga, either - I should've bought an Insider > board instead and keept the Amiga in its original condition. I wasn't a > collector yet, though. :) ) Don't worry. It just adds character to the machine. You can just say some "unknown" hacker made the mod if anyone asks. And don't forget to mention it adds character to the machine. > BTW: Who here thinks I'm crazy for wanting to run an "old-time BBS" off a > VIC-20? Who here thinks it's impossible? :) Not me. Of course its totally possible. As soon as there are 27 hours in the day I'm going to be putting up and old style BBS on my Sinclair ZX80! (Just kidding, it'll be on a Linux box probably, but I'll just say it runs on a Sinclair). > This strange contraption wouldn't be some kind of interface between the > PET and an S100 bus, would it? (THAT would be cool!) How would I know an > S100 bus if I saw one? :) It would have slots that have 100 pin connectors (50 on side side, 50 on the other). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Fri Apr 25 02:45:42 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Computer Books Message-ID: <33606126.15B9@oboe.calpoly.edu> I'll have to agree on the library as a good source of books. I recently was looking in our library here at school and couldn't find a newer book on PC's. There were quite a few old programming/hardware books from the 70's and a complete set of an old computer magazine from the 60's to the present. Great fun to look at the prices and advertising. And they do sell them. My friend found a book on Volkswagens from the early 60's....$2. Just ask at the circulation desk. They don't have to be in the book sale, just old enough to be of no general value in their eyes. Another good place to look is the Goodwill, thrift sores, etc. Most of us probably already do that but I thought Id mention it. At our local store, customers trash whatever comes neatly in any box. (sad, the disks get thrown around and power supplies disappear too) When they clean up they just pile the manuals on the shelf next to the Danielle Steel novels. I found a complete set of manuals for an Apple III a while back. Tons of Commodore programming guides. Software carts and disks end up in the cassette tape section for some reason. If interested, I could grab whatever I find and sell to interested parties here for cost + shipping. Usually .50 a book + postage. I really don't have the room (or the time) to stockpile books. I just buy what matches the systems I have at the time or what seems rare. Greg From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 25 15:57:43 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Freebie Message-ID: <33621973.2428728@smtp.ix.netcom.com> I have a printer which doesn't work and I don't know why. (And don't want to mess with it) Rather than junk it (saving parts) I'll offer it to anyone who'll pay shipping costs from zip code 73162. It's a Okidata 292 with a serial interface module (which might work) but minus the knob. The power led does come on but it does not self-test. You've got a week to rescue it. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From jeffh at eleventh.com Sat Apr 19 09:21:13 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, the weekend has just started, and I've made yet another haul of program tapes for the Timex-Sinclair, this time mostly business applications. This brings the total number of original T/S-1000 and ZX-81 tapes to 12, with a total of 20 original tapes of all types! Some of them will run on the 2k machine, while most require the 16k expansion. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128, C128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sat Apr 26 01:17:26 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: PETS & Used Books References: <199704250702.AAA35148@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33619DF6.4F2B@goldrush.com> > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:38:21 -0400 (EDT) > From: Doug Spence > There used to be a copy of Osborne's "PET/CBM Personal Computer Guide" > around here someplace, but I suspect my brother took it with him when he > moved out, even though he's a C64 man. (Darn!) I really need to find a > good shop with old computer books in it. All of the second-hand > bookstores I've been to specifically state that they don't keep computer > books or magazines older than 5 years (or so) old. :/ The Osborne is a good reference, but there are more indepth books, such as Programming the PET/CBM and PET Revealed. Pity about the stores, I too have noticed that, and if the owners of said store don't have any clue about computers they usually opt not to take any computer books (they probably got burned with a bunch of punch-card computer text books years back...) > Interesting. I performed the piggyback RAM hack on my Amiga 1000 (back > when it was worth real money) and that seems to still be holding up. No this was not an expansion job, this was a direct piggy back of chips, no bending out pins here, like I said it was a pretty stupid thing, that never stopped him. > BTW: Who here thinks I'm crazy for wanting to run an "old-time BBS" off a > VIC-20? Who here thinks it's impossible? :) Heck I have been and still am sysop a Commodore 64 BBS for ten years now. If you want some BASIC BBS programs to start with (written for 64, but I'm sure can be easily modified for VIC) I know I have some archived here...somewhere. > (music program)in BASIC, based on the Cursor #4 tape's cover program. I found copies of these > things in my brother's cassette collection (I was still in elementary > school at the time the PETs were in use). Hey brother, could you spare a copy for a friend in need? I'll even supply you with a tape-to-disk program for the 64 that will make the transfer a snap! > Too bad I couldn't find the cassette with the > professional music software on it (I forget what it's called) that lets > you compose the music on the staff on the screen, and that scrolls the > music as it plays. It's really impressive for an 8K machine! I remember an ad about one that AB computers was selling I can't remember it's name either. (maestro maybe?) > ...the old 8K here with the miniature multicoloured > keyboard (love that thing!) Sure is nice, I got mine (original PET) from a friend including ALOT of the original documentation, an extra tape drive (Commodore was butchering SANYO tape recorders to begin with), some newsletters (that later turned into popular magazines) and tapes, a splendid addition! I worry about it though, I'm not sure whether it has ROMs or EPROMS, whatever they are they are the original (you know those thin white DIP packages.) >It was, after all, an abused school machine, and the lid wasn't screwed down. (The > sockets in that particular machine are so bad there's no point in screwing > the lid down! Having to re-seat chips is a regular occurrence.) Most of mine are school machines, they sure take a lickin though, the ROM seating problem is common. I have read of people sugessting to replace them with quality drilled sockets. (maybe one of these years...) > So I guess Commodore stopped drilling holes in motherboards to prevent > upgrade? :) Nope, Finally got one with a hole drilled (never heard about it before that) I think it was later in the line that they started. I guess they wanted to make darn sure that if someone bought a 4016 at a discount that was only what they were gonna get. > Assuming all these chips are the same, this was a 16K RAM board. This'd > be nice to get running. I would have thought it to be more. :/ > (How would one test a capacitor to see if it's OK?) No idea from me, anyone? (on possibility of it being a Visible Memory Board) > Oooh... I wish. :) I didn't think you could even get such a thing for a > 2001, I thought graphics boards were the domain of the 8032 and like > systems. No idea why I'd think there'd be such limitations on one PET and > not on another, though. :) Actually one of my PETs has one (I used it in high school), the graphics could overlay the PET character screen too! Unfortunately the PET had a mother board replacement and the jumpers are now wrong, and I'm without docs, so it is not fully functional. Pitty I got a great Space War done like Star Trek game for it. From an ad I still do have, the MTU Visible Mmory Board was deveoped for the KIM-1 and then adapted for the PET, so it's been around for a while. Same for the sound board, it mentions Hal Chamberlin developing it for the KIM originally too (want a copy of the ad for collection sake?) > BTW, there's also another piece of bizarre PET expansion around the house > somewhere... Another 16K of expansion, actually. That's what those large > music files were created with. But the thing is HUGE and it consists of > exposed circuit boards, so I didn't particularly want to use it in its > current state. [clip] > > This strange contraption wouldn't be some kind of interface between the > PET and an S100 bus, would it? (THAT would be cool!) How would I know an > S100 bus if I saw one? :) You never know, there was alot of neat things out for the PET, color boards, Hi-Res, Disk Drive Multiplexers, UPS systems, Networking units, etc. ---------- > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:04:08 -0500 (CDT) > From: "Starling" > I've found that one of the best sources for old computer books and > magazines is often overlooked... the LIBRARY. Most public libraries have > a nice collection of books on old personal computers from the 1st wave of > PC popularity (early 80s). I remember donating a Peoples Computer Company Games Book to them after a few years they discarded it (probably sold it at a book sale), gosh, I wish I had gotten it back. :/ Not all libraries keep their older computer books. *sigh* > However, if you're looking to own the books or magazines, this doesn't > help. But if you're just looking for info or wanting to get some kicks > by reading old stuff, your local public or university library is a great > place to start. University microfilm - http://www.umi.com/ has several older (70s-80s, yeah, and 90s too...) computer magazines in film still available, prices are too steep for me presently but I may someday purchase some sets. --------- > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:43:29 -0400 > From: Glenn Roberts > so stop in at your local library's book > sale booth and you might pick up a classic or two. > Unfortunately for the local library the good books are almost all gone. :( Thrift store bookshelves and flea markets have been really good to me lately though. ------------------------------ > Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:38:35 +0500 > From: hellige > Subject: Re: PETS & the Silly Game > There are 4 BBS's locally running on the C-64 using the 'Color-64' BBS > program. Of course, they're mainly geared towards the Commodore crowd and the > C-64, but they are quite interesting. One of them is the official board of > the local Commodore 64/128 user group. Many of them (commodore BBSs) are networked now, my board (which runs Image BBS) belongs to a network of 60 or so boards. In just a couple years the BBS program it runs will be eligible for discussion! ------------------------ > From: Sam Ismail > Subject: Re: PETS & the Silly Game > Don't worry. It just adds character to the machine. You can just say > some "unknown" hacker made the mod if anyone asks. And don't forget to > mention it adds character to the machine. I myself think you should take credit for the mod, since many of the 'card jockys' today don't know which end of a soldering iron is the business end. I've got a 64 with a second SID hack (not by me but paid by me), I am proud of that machine. Larry Anderson From BigLouS at aol.com Sat Apr 26 11:01:45 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) Message-ID: <970426120145_-566603668@emout20.mail.aol.com> > A guy at my > work is supposed to give me his, which he says is a ][, but he's not > always all there, so it could just be a ][+. But I would say a ][ is > probably worth about $100 with some accessories, like a disk drive and > monitor and the language card. I just swapped a bare II/E for a Bare II. Going price for a bare IIE is about $20 on the Apple newsgroups. Apple II's don't seem to be valued very much in the Apple II newsgroup or for sale group. Lou From dastar at crl.com Sat Apr 26 11:57:21 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: <970426120145_-566603668@emout20.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > > A guy at my > > work is supposed to give me his, which he says is a ][, but he's not > > always all there, so it could just be a ][+. But I would say a ][ is > > probably worth about $100 with some accessories, like a disk drive and > > monitor and the language card. > > I just swapped a bare II/E for a Bare II. Going price for a bare IIE is about > $20 on the Apple newsgroups. Apple II's don't seem to be valued very much in > the Apple II newsgroup or for sale group. Well, that's mostly because the machine isn't appreciated yet. Sure a trillion were made, but has anyone actually ever SEEN one? Yeah, sure, maybe a few of us, but I'm sure EVERYONE here can say they've seen a //e, a //c or even a //gs, but not the original, plain old vanilla ][. A //e would sell because it is still an extremely usable machine. Even if you added the 16k language card to a ][ and gave it a lowercase ROM and a shift-key mod, it still couldn't run a good deal of specific applications that make the apple ][ usable these days. Thus the ][ is considered a cripple. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Apr 26 14:52:38 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 26, 97 09:57:21 am Message-ID: <9704261852.AA21192@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 972 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970426/63ba4bbd/attachment.ksh From dastar at crl.com Sat Apr 26 18:01:23 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: <9704261852.AA21192@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Well, that's mostly because the machine isn't appreciated yet. Sure a > > trillion were made, but has anyone actually ever SEEN one? Yeah, sure, > > maybe a few of us, but I'm sure EVERYONE here can say they've seen a //e, > > a //c or even a //gs, but not the original, plain old vanilla ][. > > Actually, I hadn't seen a //c or //gs until just a year or two ago. > But I still have my vanilla II. > > Much more interesting to me than the original II are some of the > original Apple II software products. For example, the RAM version of > Applesoft, or some of the good old Integer Basic games like > Apple Trek and Pong, on original Apple cassette tapes. Good stuff. > Unfortunately, lots of these little items got thrown out when users > upgraded to disk drives. Yeah, you never really think of the cassette ports having been useful for anything but digitizing sound and maybe transferring copy protected games, or piping sound output to an external amplifier. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From pcoad at crl.com Sat Apr 26 18:50:38 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: weekend additions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I picked up some good stuff today. Here is the haul: One nearly mint copy of "More BASIC Computer Games" by David Ahl. One "The Best of Creative Computing V.3" by Ahl and Green. One boxed copy of Adventure for HP 150 and HP 110. (yes, THAT adventure). One boxed Commodore Plus/4. One Sun type 4 keyboard and mouse (not yet classic, but good none the less). Total: $11.00 I have a few questions: Can the Plus/4 run C64 software? In the user's manual there is a picture of a 1541 disk drive which looked black. It was a black and white picture, but the 1541s that I have seen all match the color scheme of the C64. Has anyone seen a black 1541? I now have volumes 1 and 3 of "The Best of Creative Computing", how many volumes where published? Anyone interested in a trade for Adventure? I don't have any HP machines, and would rather this go to someone who could back it up, and get some use out of it. This is the only piece of HP 150 or 110 software that I have ever seen. Happy hunting, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pcoad at crl.com Sat Apr 26 19:12:10 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > > > I just swapped a bare II/E for a Bare II. Going price for a bare IIE is about > > $20 on the Apple newsgroups. Apple II's don't seem to be valued very much in > > the Apple II newsgroup or for sale group. > > Well, that's mostly because the machine isn't appreciated yet. Sure a > trillion were made, but has anyone actually ever SEEN one? Yeah, sure, > maybe a few of us, but I'm sure EVERYONE here can say they've seen a //e, > a //c or even a //gs, but not the original, plain old vanilla ][. > > A //e would sell because it is still an extremely usable machine. Even > if you added the 16k language card to a ][ and gave it a lowercase ROM > and a shift-key mod, it still couldn't run a good deal of specific > applications that make the apple ][ usable these days. Thus the ][ is > considered a cripple. > I remember seeing Apple II's (vanilla) for sale. The salesman told me about how much better this other machine (II+?) was since the II only had integer BASIC and uppercase. This was not too long after I had my first exposure to computers and was dying to get one of my own. I also remember seeing Apple III's and Atari 800's on sale at Weinstock's. There was a strange time for a while in the late 70's and early 80's when many department stores had a "computer department". This was the case in Sacramento, was it like that in other cities? --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jeffh at eleventh.com Sat Apr 26 12:07:02 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: weekend additions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 27-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Can the Plus/4 run C64 software? >In the user's manual there is a picture of a 1541 disk drive which looked >black. It was a black and white picture, but the 1541s that I have seen >all match the color scheme of the C64. Has anyone seen a black 1541? Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but the Plus/4 (like the C-16) was intended as an upgrade, and total break, from the C-64 and is incompatible in both hardware and software to the C-64. I've seen it said that this was one of the main reasons the machine never caught on. As for the color scheme of the 1541 though, the later 1541's were the ones that matched the brown color of the C-64. The earlier 1541's, labled VIC-1541, matched the lighter color of the VIC-20. It is the VIC-1541 that I have in my collection. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From dastar at crl.com Sun Apr 27 13:09:53 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > I also remember seeing Apple III's and Atari 800's on sale at Weinstock's. > There was a strange time for a while in the late 70's and early 80's when > many department stores had a "computer department". This was the case > in Sacramento, was it like that in other cities? It was like that in southern California as well. I remember going into Sears and Montgomery Wards and another department store all the time and the first place I would head to would be the computer "department" where I would play with the TI99/4a's and the commodores and the TRS-80s and wish I could have one. This was around 1982. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Apr 27 13:07:33 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: weekend additions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > I picked up some good stuff today. Here is the haul: > > One nearly mint copy of "More BASIC Computer Games" by David Ahl. I have this one too. > One "The Best of Creative Computing V.3" by Ahl and Green. > One boxed copy of Adventure for HP 150 and HP 110. (yes, THAT adventure). > One boxed Commodore Plus/4. > One Sun type 4 keyboard and mouse (not yet classic, but good none the less). > > Total: $11.00 That's pretty good. Here's my catch: Epson HX-20 "Notebook Computer" - this was an auction web purchase ($47) and is supposed to be the first "notebook". This is an awesome little gem. It has a built-in thermal printer and micro-cassette port for data storage. It has a 20 character by 4 line screen and a 16K expansion module. I was fortunate enough to be near enough to the seller to go pick it up. When I got to his place, he was about to throw out a bunch of other stuff, so I told him to use my trunk as the garbage can. This is what else I came away with: MacintoshPlus with external harddrive (now I've got two). Canon "Cat" V777 Work Processor (a standalone 68000 based, GUI-based, word processor with a 3.5" drive, parallel port, RS232C port and built-in modem...not quite a classic computer but it is circa 1987 and is neat-o). Morrow Pivot Portable - haven't had a chance to play with it yet but it is an early portable (about 12" high by 14" wide by 7" deep) with an LCD screen, built-in modem, 2 5.25" disk drives, parallel/serial ports and an expansion bus connector. Don't know what processor it has or how much RAM, but I was told it was an 8088 based system. Its actually a "personal digital assistant" with a phone dialer, calendar, calculator (all available from a front button panel) and I think it boots into DOS, although I haven't played with it long enough to know. Very Neat. Also, thanks to Jeff Hellige I was re-united with my boyhood computer (well, not THEE one but it will do) an Aquarius. Thanks Jeff! Its such a cool little machine. Now I just need to find all the different components I had for it, like the expander module, 4K memory carthridge, Utopia and some other game, the paddles and the thermal printer. I also got a couple TI/994a's for spare parts/trade and a CoCo2 (which is a variant from the one I have) off of auction web. I also scored the original IBM Personal Computer Operations Guide in mint condition from a thrift shop. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun Apr 27 02:40:42 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: emulator board help Message-ID: This is likely not really the right place to ask this, but nobody else in other groups has a clue about a 16bit ISA board I have. It is as follows: 16bit ISA board for IBM compatiblle 16mhz MC68020RC16B and MC68881RC16A processors 16 30 pin memory modules soldered directly to the circuit board each module contains 9 41256-120 RAM chips (NEC 8608E621) 1 DB-9 and 1 DB-25 connector (both male) on the rear cover plate Markings: "DSI-780" on the front, and "Rev B Copyright 1986 Definicon" on the rear There is also an empty socket, the same size as the 68020 socket. I aquired this board from a pile of misc. circuit boards that was being tossed out a couple of years ago, and have not been able to find out any information on it. Any info at all would be most helpful. To me, it appears to be some kind of hardware emulator for an Apple or Mac. I know in the late 80's there were a number of Apple II emulator boards for the PC running around, as I recall seeing them for sale in the Radio Shack catalogs of the period. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Apr 27 19:51:49 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: emulator board help In-Reply-To: ; from "hellige" at Apr 27, 97 12:40 (noon) Message-ID: <199704271851.10805@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> [ISA board] > Markings: "DSI-780" on the front, and "Rev B Copyright 1986 > Definicon" on the rear > > There is also an empty socket, the same size as the 68020 socket. I seem to recall that Definicon made coprocessor boards (68000 series, and maybe 32016 series as well) for PC's. You rean special language compilers on the PC that converted your high-level source into machine code for the 68000 or whatever, and ran it on the coprocessor board It didn't (AFAIK) emulate any other standard computer - for all there was a 68020 in there, you couldn't run Mac (or Amiga, ST, or whatever) software on it. The rest of the machine was totally different. There was an article about them in Byte, sometime in the mid 1980's. I seem to remember it gave partial schematics for one of the boards. Don't ask me which issue it was, or where to find it... > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Sun Apr 27 14:32:26 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: weekend additions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, I'm not an expert on these, but... > Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but the Plus/4 (like the C-16) was > intended as an upgrade, and total break, from the C-64 and is incompatible in > both hardware and software to the C-64. I've seen it said that this was one > of the main reasons the machine never caught on. As for the color scheme of > the 1541 though, the later 1541's were the ones that matched the brown color > of the C-64. The earlier 1541's, labled VIC-1541, matched the lighter color > of the VIC-20. It is the VIC-1541 that I have in my collection. The Plus/4, I think, was completely software incompatible with the C64 line. The hardware was a different story - as it used the same serial bus as the 64. Most C64 peripherals were compatible. There was also a line of hardware designed to go with the Plus/4 that was all done in black. The black disk drive was not actually a 1541 but a 1551. There was at least a printer and a modem designed specifically for this line. The C2N cassette was also compatible I think and recased, for a brief period, in black. As for the 1541 disk drives - Commodore was always confusing with those. Of the drives labelled 1541 there were at least 4 models - which were called by different numbers internally. The drive labelled VIC-1541 which is VIC in color is actually a 1540. There are also 2 models in original C64 color which differ internally and are actually the 1541 and 1542. Then, when the later slimline C64 came out they repackaged the drive and made yet more revisions to it and called it the 1541-II. Does anyone know if anyone other than Commodore ever got into writing software for the Plus/4? Did Commodore ever make anything other than the built-in apps? Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Sun Apr 27 16:53:55 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Alignment Disks Message-ID: Hi all. Anyone know where alignment disks can be purchased these days? Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun Apr 27 09:28:43 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: emulator board help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 28-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >I seem to recall that Definicon made coprocessor boards (68000 series, and >maybe 32016 series as well) for PC's. You rean special language compilers >on the PC that converted your high-level source into machine code for the >68000 or whatever, and ran it on the coprocessor board What would be the point in doing this though, if the board didn't emulate a specific 68000 series computer? Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From KFergason at aol.com Sun Apr 27 23:33:09 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: emulator board help Message-ID: <970428003308_940855047@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-27 14:49:28 EDT, you write: << Markings: "DSI-780" on the front, and "Rev B Copyright 1986 Definicon" on the rear >> The Definicon coprocessor board for the PC. You could basically compile and run Fortran programs in the coprocessor. Not Mac related. sorta dated now, but cool at the time. Mine seems to have a bad Simm, and would fail periodically. I haven't used it in years. Kelly From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon Apr 28 00:07:10 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Atari prob, etc. References: <199704270702.AAA05522@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3364307E.1339@goldrush.com> Had a huge success at a local thrift store this saturday, much of it is components < 10 years old. But I did find a Power Supply for an Atari Computer (Ihave aquired an 800, 1200xk and 1050 all sans Power Supplies). Soooo.. today I hooked the buggers in one by one: The 800, powered up like a champ! Got the Atari FAQs up and determined I have an 800 with a GITA and the BASIC cartridge is Revision A. The 1200XL is a different matter, Powered up, got the logo, went to diagnostics, sound O.K., Memory looks good, but keyboard... I can get the top row (reset,start,select,option, & help) working but the other keys seem dead. The strange thing is I gboot up BASIC and I press a letter and the computer responds with it's 'click' sound but no key (maybe something in the decoding logic???) Any Atarians got a clue? Since I only have the one power supply I had to power up the 1050 as a standalone the head did a quick back-fourth motion and the activity light stopped so that seems to be a promising sign. Second request: When I get a second supply I gonna kinda need a disk to run on this thing, can anyone help set me up with some essential disks (DOS, utilities, maybe some common games, etc.) I can trade for some fine Commodore Programs and such. (=)) One yard sale find was a batch of Radio Electronics Magazines, dated back in the 80s... Will have to scan through those closely. At first I thought I'd just weed out the ones I wanted and pass on the rest, but I've made that mistake once before.... They will go into storage. Yet another yard sale purchase was a 64 system (I dare not count how many I have), so far so good, the C64 and power supply are fully functional and the keyboard is amazingly clean (i.e. all the keys work, even though It looks like someone tracked mud on the computer). I still have to test the monitor and 1541, but I feel confident they will function. -- >From: Paul E Coad >Subject: weekend additions >I picked up some good stuff today. Here is the haul: >One nearly mint copy of "More BASIC Computer Games" by David Ahl. >One "The Best of Creative Computing V.3" by Ahl and Green. >One boxed copy of Adventure for HP 150 and HP 110. (yes, THAT >adventure). >One boxed Commodore Plus/4. >One Sun type 4 keyboard and mouse (not yet classic, but good none the >>less). >Total: $11.00 Good haul! I would've paid that much for that Creative Computing book. >I have a few questions: >Can the Plus/4 run C64 software? BASIC, pretty much so, except if there are POKEs and SYS commands in it it may need some converting, some BASIC may not be easy or possible mainly if there is sprite or sound usage as those chips are VERY different then on the 64. There are some good FTP sites for the Plus/4, just make sure when you download games and demos they are NTSC and not PAL, (PAL graphics are unviewable on an NTSC Plus/4), there are game conversions available (Jim Hehl is probably the most noted for converting programs 64 and Plus/4 european to the American Plus/4 platform). This reminds me I really need to get the adapter pinouts of the Joysticks and the Cassette port on my web page. (whisper.. "if you write it they will browse...") >In the user's manual there is a picture of a 1541 disk drive which looked >black. It was a black and white picture, but the 1541s that I have seen >all match the color scheme of the C64. Has anyone seen a black 1541? Not me, though you can tell Commodore was toying with the idea (on the Plus/4, C-16, MPS-803, DPS-1101, and the 1531 datasette for the Plus/4/16) It could have been the rare Commodore 1551 disk drive. Commodore's attempt at a fast parallel drive. It was to hook into the parallel port of the Plus/4 and delivered a great speed improvement over the 1541 (not too hard of a feat.) I hear it was released in Europe but not in the states. >I now have volumes 1 and 3 of "The Best of Creative Computing", how many >volumes where published? I think they stopped with volume 3, I remember they closed out a bunch of their inventory to schools (which included vols 1-3) at about $100 or so, that was sometime in 1982. Gosh I wish I had all that stuff today: posters, computer music record, books, etc. >Happy hunting, ------------ >From: hellige >Subject: Re: weekend additions > Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but the Plus/4 (like the C-16) was >intended as an upgrade, and total break, from the C-64 and is incompatible in >both hardware and software to the C-64. I've seen it said that this was one >of the main reasons the machine never caught on. As for the color scheme of >the 1541 though, the later 1541's were the ones that matched the brown color >of the C-64. The earlier 1541's, labled VIC-1541, matched the lighter color >of the VIC-20. It is the VIC-1541 that I have in my collection. The 1541 is VERY compatible with the Plus/4 and Commodore 16 (thank goodness!) You can adapt a datasette to use on the Plus/4 but Commodore decided to change the pitches at which the data is recorded thus making it impossible to interchange data via tape between other Commodore 8-bits. The format and timing are the same from what I understand. Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From KFergason at aol.com Mon Apr 28 00:32:01 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: emulator board help Message-ID: <970428013200_-1133103114@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-27 21:51:43 EDT, you write: << What would be the point in doing this though, if the board didn't emulate a specific 68000 series computer? >> It was designed for number crunching. It was much faster than Microsoft Fortran on an 8088, or the 80286. Kelly From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun Apr 27 16:18:01 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: emulator board help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 28-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >The Definicon coprocessor board for the PC. You could basically >compile and run Fortran programs in the coprocessor. Not Mac >related. sorta dated now, but cool at the time. That's interesting. It makes sense considering where I got it as well...lots of engineers and R&D work. Looks like he board had a bit more memory on it than the average PC of the time. >Mine seems to have a bad Simm, and would fail periodically. I haven't used >it in years. Would you still have the disks for it? Do you know if there was any type of diagnostic on the disk to determine if this board is functional or not? Thanks. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun Apr 27 16:22:27 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:09 2005 Subject: Atari prob, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 28-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Since I only have the one power supply I had to power up the 1050 as a One thing about Atari 8bit stuff is a lot of it tended to use it's own power rating on the power supply, and not really interchangeable between most of it, it seems. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 28 04:25:14 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: *** Preliminary Announcement *** First Annual Classic Computer Collector Conference Why? Next question... Where? Livermore, California (tentative...actual venue TBD) When? Late Summer 1997 (possibly August) Who? Organizer: Sam Ismail Sponsors: Pending (targeted sponsors will be Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories and other computer manufacturers in the local area and Silicon Valley). What? The Classic Computer Collector Convention is slated to be the premier computer faire to attend to meet with fellow classic computer collector geeks, buy/sell/trade classic computer stuff, exchange classic computer software and classic computer hints and tips, attend workshops on classic computer preservation and restoration, and of course see classic computers. Some show features: Classic Computer Spotlight - every year a legendary system is chosen to be heralded as the classic computer of the year (nominees for the first show are Altair 8800; Apple ][; Commodore PET; ???). Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an individual from the annals of computer lore will be chosen as the Classic Computer Pioneer of the year. This would be someone who had a lasting legacy or made a historical impact on the computer industry, but is not necessarily active anymore (ie. this precludes Bill Gates from qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? Classic Computer Museum - A classic museum will be set-up on-site to allow interested public to see what classic computers are all about. Attendees will be encouraged to submit their favorite classics for display during the show. The success of the show will depend on attendance. Admission will be enough to cover the costs of running the show (including lease of the venue, advertising, etc). Although there won't be much of a vending atmosphere (unless people want to haul their stuff from all over the country) space will be sold for such purposes. More details as I come up with them. I would really appreciate feedback from the patrons of this discussion group. Any ideas, comments, suggestions are welcome (please suggest a better name!) IMPORTANT: Please keep this information within this discussion group until the details have been finalized and the show is a go. I don't want to announce to the general public until I am sure this event will take place. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Apr 28 04:51:50 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: Old Computer Books (was Re: Pets & Silly Game) In-Reply-To: <199704241604.LAA03521@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Starling wrote: > I've found that one of the best sources for old computer books and > magazines is often overlooked... the LIBRARY. Most public libraries have > a nice collection of books on old personal computers from the 1st wave of > PC popularity (early 80s). Actually, I've become fairly well acquainted with the old computer book collection of the university library here. They do have some great books, including a couple on the KIM-1. It was from library books that I learned how to use CP/M. But the only PET books this library has are things like collections of type-in programs for the PET, and books on using the PET in an educational environment. Nothing good and technical. Possibly the coolest thing apart from the book on KIM-1 interfacing projects, though, is the book the library has on the Memotech MTX512's BASIC. I borrowed that one and ended up typing up a small manual into an AmigaGuide document in case I ever should run across such a beast. > I know that my hometown (Austin, TX) has a > huge collection of books with titles like "6502 Assembly Projects" and > "1001 things to do with your PET". Plus, most libraries archive > magazines. My university has a full set of many computer magazines that > have been around since the 70s such as Byte. My university's library had a whole floor dedicated to periodicals, but that library was closed and I haven't seen a sign of that material since the new library opened. I suppose I should ask someone if they kept the stuff. > However, if you're looking to own the books or magazines, this doesn't > help. But if you're just looking for info or wanting to get some kicks > by reading old stuff, your local public or university library is a great > place to start. I find that most of the computer-related books in this library are too theoretical. There really isn't that much that is linked to one piece of hardware. I did find a few good books in a Salvation Army store on Thursday, though. I was hoping for some hardware (they had NONE), but I'm quite pleased with some of the books I found. Nothing involving the PET, though. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Apr 28 05:05:17 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: BBSes on old hardware and SuperVIC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, hellige wrote: > Doug, > > There are 4 BBS's locally running on the C-64 using the 'Color-64' BBS > program. Of course, they're mainly geared towards the Commodore crowd and the > C-64, but they are quite interesting. One of them is the official board of > the local Commodore 64/128 user group. It still shows people are still > running BBS's using the older hardware though! Yeah, there are still a few C64 BBSes running around here, too, and one on an Atari 800 as well, last time I checked. But let's just say that I find that the VIC-20 has a certain mystique about it, and as it is generally used as an example of "wimpy and laughable" by those people who still remember what it was (many people don't even know what you're talking about when you say "VIC-20" to them anymore) I though it would be extremely cool to run a BBS on one. Actually, I also want to build a kind of "SuperVIC" machine. I want it to ba a luggable like my TeleVideo or Kaypro II, only sitting vertically at all times like a mini tower or something. I'd use the guts of a small portable TV as the screen, put a standard serial port on it, and have the keyboard snap onto its face. I'd put at least 32K in it, with a memory protection toggle on the RAM so that it could run images of cartridges from disk. I think I'd want two disk drives in it. With everything running off a single power supply. Well, *I* think it'd be cool, even if everyone else doesn't. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From marcw at lightside.com Mon Apr 28 03:11:37 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: Software database for you collector-types Message-ID: <199704281022.DAA10960@covina.lightside.com> Howdy, I just thought of something. Are any of you using a database to catalogue what software you use/have for these old machines? I've got a database that came on a Big Blue Disk back around '88 called Software Indexer. It's small and all but has some nice features including cascading menus with a lot of pre-defined categories. These can be edited/deleted/added to. There's not much data entry because of the menus/pick-lists. Once you type in the name of the program everything else is a matter of choosing what's there except for the comments field. Here's examples that may interest you (jeez I sound like I'm spamming a new product here). Example/sample of menu selections: System Macintosh MFS (Old format) HFS (Current format) Lisa Office System Apple II Series Apple ProDOS 8 Apple ProDOS 16 Apple DOS 3.3 Apple DOS 3.2 Apple CP/M Apple Pascal Apple GEOS Apple /// (SOS) CP/M CP/M-80 CP/M-86 CP/M-68K Orphan Machines Timex/Sinclair TI 99/4 TI Professional Osborne Exidy Sorcerer CompuColor 2 SOL-20 Ohio Scientific Altair Cromemco Mainframes DecSystem-10/PDP-10 DecSystem-20 RSTS Multics Minicomputers IBM System 34/36 DEC VAX (VMS) PDP-11 Video Game Systems Atari VCS (2600) Atari 5200 Atari 7800 ColecoVision Magnavox Odyssey 2 Sega Master System (more) Medium 5.25" floppy Double-density High-density Single-sided "Flippy" 8" floppy "Twiggy" (old Lisa) And all the other stuff. Atari's, Amiga's, Commodore's, Intel x86, etc. Other categories/menus are Distribution & Category. All customizable 'til you run out of menu space (easy to do). Anyhind, if anyone's interested I can zip it up and send it to whoever's interested. It is/was shareware. I used to get Big Blue Disk but don't remember if I got this from there or from a BBS way back when. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com (finger at: marcw@mail.lightside.com) marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Apr 28 06:57:04 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: PETS & the Silly Game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > > Interesting. I performed the piggyback RAM hack on my Amiga 1000 (back > > when it was worth real money) and that seems to still be holding up. I > > *don't* want to do that to my PET, though. :) (In fact, in retrospect, I > > wish I hadn't done it to my Amiga, either - I should've bought an Insider > > board instead and keept the Amiga in its original condition. I wasn't a > > collector yet, though. :) ) > > Don't worry. It just adds character to the machine. You can just say > some "unknown" hacker made the mod if anyone asks. And don't forget to > mention it adds character to the machine. Nah, I may as well claim the credit. I think it says more for my bravery than my skill, though, because I did a really messy job and it's some sort of minor miracle that it worked. (I was too imatient to get it done and didn't wait to collect the right tools first... ended up having to REBUILD pins on chips on the motherboard that had been sheared off to barely-visible protrusions of metal, using model railroad connectors.) > > BTW: Who here thinks I'm crazy for wanting to run an "old-time BBS" off a > > VIC-20? Who here thinks it's impossible? :) > > Not me. Of course its totally possible. As soon as there are 27 hours > in the day I'm going to be putting up and old style BBS on my Sinclair > ZX80! (Just kidding, it'll be on a Linux box probably, but I'll just say > it runs on a Sinclair). Now, I think I'll declare a ZX80-run BBS as an impossibility, if only because I really want to see it done and I know that whenever anything is declared "impossible" it just acts as added incentive to hackers. ;) > > This strange contraption wouldn't be some kind of interface between the > > PET and an S100 bus, would it? (THAT would be cool!) How would I know an > > S100 bus if I saw one? :) > > It would have slots that have 100 pin connectors (50 on side side, 50 on > the other). Actually, I just picked up an excellent book entitled "The Micro-Computer Builder's Bible" by Chris Johnston, and it's got some pictures of S100 boards in it (I like the one labeled "A typical 4K static board"). It looks like the chances are excellent that what I've got is an S100 bus interface for the PET, but I really have to drag the thing out of storage to count the pins on it to make sure. If it IS an S100 bus interface, I wonder where I could find documentation on how to use the thing. It would be extra neat if I could plug I/O boards and graphics cards into the PET this way. :) > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From kevan at motiv.co.uk Mon Apr 28 07:10:20 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: Software database for you collector-types In-Reply-To: <199704281022.DAA10960@covina.lightside.com> Message-ID: <199704281210.NAA18040@cream.motiv.co.uk> In message <199704281022.DAA10960@covina.lightside.com>you write: > Howdy, > I just thought of something. Are any of you using a database to > catalogue what software you use/have for these old machines? I don't just explicitly use a database just for software, but I do use a database to catalogue my computer collection as a whole and this does include software. I started using SGML with my own DTD, but I soon started hitting limitations, so I now use a PostgreSQL database. I generate all the pages for my web site using this database and a Python program. (I am currently working on a web based admin system for it also.) I would be interested in hearing from other collectors who use databases, either the shelf or custom designed ones, to discuss issues involved. Hey maybe one day we could come up with some sort of generic cataloguing system / database schema for old computers and associated stuff. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Apr 28 07:56:21 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: PETs etc. In-Reply-To: <33619DF6.4F2B@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > The Osborne is a good reference, but there are more indepth books, such > as Programming the PET/CBM and PET Revealed. If only I could find such things. I suspect that if I took a trip to Toronto I'd have much better luck in all of my searches for old computer hardware, software, and books, but the chances of finding PET stuff in particular would go up a hundred fold. (What with TPUG, the Toronto PET Users Group, etc.) I have a feeling that computer ownership wasn't nearly as common in Montreal in the early days as it was in most other major North American cities, but my impressions could be wrong. Certainly people in my particular area had them, but mostly just various flavours of the Apple ][. The Apple seemed to be some sort of status symbol. > Pity about the stores, I > too have noticed that, and if the owners of said store don't have any > clue about computers they usually opt not to take any computer books > (they probably got burned with a bunch of punch-card computer text books > years back...) I only just recently learned to ignore those books myself. I have quite a few totally useless books that I picked up only because they had some nice pictures of old iron in them, or whatever. When I say useless, I mean really useless. Books used as introductory computer texts, with no specific information in them at all. I do still pick up books on, for example, assembly language programming of the PDP-11 and that kind of thing, because those books are cool. (Besides, I actually referred to one of those old books recently while studying for my computer architecture exam that I had on Saturday, because I couldn't figure out what was going on in the textbook for that class :) ) > > Interesting. I performed the piggyback RAM hack on my Amiga 1000 (back > > when it was worth real money) and that seems to still be holding up. > > No this was not an expansion job, this was a direct piggy back of > chips, no bending out pins here, like I said it was a pretty stupid > thing, that never stopped him. Uh... was he looking for data redundancy or something? ;) > > BTW: Who here thinks I'm crazy for wanting to run an "old-time BBS" off a > > VIC-20? Who here thinks it's impossible? :) > > Heck I have been and still am sysop a Commodore 64 BBS for ten years > now. If you want some BASIC BBS programs to start with (written for 64, > but I'm sure can be easily modified for VIC) I know I have some archived > here...somewhere. I intend to write the software on my own, but fast serial routines might come in handy. I want to at least get 2400bps out of the thing. I don't think that'll be a problem for the VIC-20, as it's faster at I/O than the 64. I'll probably have to put in a lot of RAM, though, to act as buffers for the slow disk drives. :) > > (music program)in BASIC, based on the Cursor #4 tape's cover program. I > > found copies of these > > things in my brother's cassette collection (I was still in elementary > > school at the time the PETs were in use). > > Hey brother, could you spare a copy for a friend in need? nudge, nugde> > I'll even supply you with a tape-to-disk program for the 64 that will > make the transfer a snap! Do you mean the music teacher's programs, or the Cursor tapes? :) I think I have copies of tapes #1 to #8, plus a couple of games from later tapes. I wish I had the originals... but these were copies made from the high school music teacher's subscription. :) Ouranos! is an awesome game, BTW. I had the PET print up the listing and I intended to port it to the Amiga, but I never got around to it. I don't think it'd be the same, though, on anything but another PET with glaring white screen. > > Too bad I couldn't find the cassette with the > > professional music software on it (I forget what it's called) that lets > > you compose the music on the staff on the screen, and that scrolls the > > music as it plays. It's really impressive for an 8K machine! > > I remember an ad about one that AB computers was selling I can't > remember it's name either. (maestro maybe?) Hummm... sounds familiar. I really have to find that once the exam shackles are off. > > ...the old 8K here with the miniature multicoloured > > keyboard (love that thing!) > > Sure is nice, I got mine (original PET) from a friend including ALOT of > the original documentation, an extra tape drive (Commodore was > butchering SANYO tape recorders to begin with), some newsletters (that > later turned into popular magazines) and tapes, a splendid addition! I > worry about it though, I'm not sure whether it has ROMs or EPROMS, > whatever they are they are the original (you know those thin white DIP > packages.) What's the serial number on that machine? I have a feeling it's a lot older than this PET. Both of my PETs have quite ordinary-looking ROMs. (The one with the mini keyboard has the 1.0 BASIC ROMs, with the '*** COMMODORE BASIC ***' message and the other one has upgrade ROMs.) > > Assuming all these chips are the same, this was a 16K RAM board. This'd > > be nice to get running. > > I would have thought it to be more. :/ Um... hold it... how are the 4116's arranged? You probably said, but of course I can't go back into my mailbox to read that while I'm replying to this one (I knew there was a reason I should my system to do this locally!). If they're 16K by 4, then that certainly WOULD be more than 8K. :) > (on possibility of it being a Visible Memory Board) > > Oooh... I wish. :) I didn't think you could even get such a thing for a > > 2001, I thought graphics boards were the domain of the 8032 and like > > systems. No idea why I'd think there'd be such limitations on one PET and > > not on another, though. :) > > Actually one of my PETs has one (I used it in high school), the graphics > could overlay the PET character screen too! Unfortunately the PET had a > mother board replacement and the jumpers are now wrong, and I'm without > docs, so it is not fully functional. Pitty I got a great Space War done > like Star Trek game for it. From an ad I still do have, the MTU Visible > Mmory Board was deveoped for the KIM-1 and then adapted for the PET, so > it's been around for a while. Same for the sound board, it mentions Hal > Chamberlin developing it for the KIM originally too (want a copy of the > ad for collection sake?) Wow, that's incredible. Not only did I not think that PETs that old could do high-res graphics in any way, but to learn that one could do so on the KIM-1! I'm flabberghasted. ;) The KIM is something I'd really like to find somewhere. I have this terrible fear, though, of coming across one in some electronic surplus shop and not recognizing it. :) There's a place I occasionally go to that sells all kinds of populated boards from who-knows-what, and something like a KIM-1 wouldn't be easy to separate from all that junk. BTW, I'd love a copy of that ad. Send it to: Doug Spence 85 Devon Road Baie d'Urfe, Que. H9X 2X3 CANADA Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Apr 28 08:21:35 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: Varieties of Apples, bootleg software, etc. In-Reply-To: <9704261852.AA21192@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > I just swapped a bare II/E for a Bare II. Going price for a bare IIE is about > > > $20 on the Apple newsgroups. Apple II's don't seem to be valued very much in > > > the Apple II newsgroup or for sale group. > > > > Well, that's mostly because the machine isn't appreciated yet. Sure a > > trillion were made, but has anyone actually ever SEEN one? Yeah, sure, > > maybe a few of us, but I'm sure EVERYONE here can say they've seen a //e, > > a //c or even a //gs, but not the original, plain old vanilla ][. > > Actually, I hadn't seen a //c or //gs until just a year or two ago. > But I still have my vanilla II. Just as an extra data point, I've only ever seen a //gs TWICE in my life. Once was at the home of a BBSer whose GT I was attending, and then a couple of years ago I saw one in a store that has since gone out of business. For the //c, I had never actually seen one until a few months ago, and now I have one of my own. I have seen plain old vanilla ][s around, but not frequently. Most 8-bit Apples around here seem to be of the ][+ variety, followed closely by the //e. > Much more interesting to me than the original II are some of the > original Apple II software products. For example, the RAM version of > Applesoft, or some of the good old Integer Basic games like > Apple Trek and Pong, on original Apple cassette tapes. Good stuff. > Unfortunately, lots of these little items got thrown out when users > upgraded to disk drives. Actually, this is kind of funny. When my family first got a 'family computer' (i.e. one for the whole family to have access to, instead of just my older brother) we bought an Apple ][+ clone. The company was pretty seedy, and not only did it sell what was basically rip-off hardware with only a few slight modifications from the real Apple machines, you also got bound photocopies of Apple's manuals with it, plus a couple of cassettes with software on them. I still have the cassettes. They've GOT to be some sort of bad bootleg job. The cases say "APPLE SOFTWAR" on them (note the missing 'E'), and apart from the descriptions of the actual keys to press, all other writing on the cassettes and on the cases are in Chinese (or some oriental language). The cassettes I chose from their large supply were Star Blazer and Sabotage; Apple Panic and Gorgon. The same company ran a 'software evaluation club' with a huge library of Apple (and, later, PC) software, whereby one would pay $10/disk (or was it $5? I never bought any, but a friend did) for whatever software they had. I think the deal was that you were paying for 99 years rent on the disk or something. The company also sold pirate versions of popular Apple expansion boards, and kits so you could build your own. (I think they had clone Apple ][ motherboards as well.) Looking back, the place was thoroughly evil. :) Anyway, the company eventually got shut down by the RCMP, but I've still got these old tapes. I wonder if oriental bootleg software has any collectors value? ;) > > Tim. > Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From danjo at xnet.com Mon Apr 28 09:27:57 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > *** Preliminary Announcement *** > First Annual Classic Computer Collector Conference > > Why? > Next question... Wait a minute - still a good question that must be answered for any backer to take on the show. > > Where? > Livermore, California (tentative...actual venue TBD) Well, THAT cuts out about 99% of the world 8-) How about a Travelling Show? [Snip] > Some show features: > Classic Computer Spotlight - every year a > first show are Altair 8800; Apple ][; Commodore > PET; ???). Yes - give the Altair it's time in the spotlight. Next year do the PET. > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > computer industry, but is not necessarily active > anymore (ie. this precludes Bill Gates from > qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? How about Babbage??? I'd bet a dollar anyone running Winders never heard of the guy 8-) Naw - go for Gary - without him there would not have been a home computer (pulling up the zipper on my flame proof suit) [Snip] > More details as I come up with them. I would > really appreciate feedback from the patrons of > this discussion group. Any ideas, comments, > suggestions are welcome (please suggest a better > name!) > > IMPORTANT: Please keep this information within > this discussion group until the details have > been finalized and the show is a go. I don't > want to announce to the general public until I > am sure this event will take place. Well, I think it's a neat idea - but you have to do some followup work too. Release videos of the seminars and do hardcopy of the show as well as most of us aren't going to make it 8-( But, staying with the Classic idea, you have to put out BetaMax tapes and have the JPegs available in punched card and paper tape too 8-) Also, as for what machine to pick, just pick one that I have. Nothing ups the price of a system like a good news article 8-) BC From scott at saskatoon.com Mon Apr 28 10:26:30 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <199704281523.JAA24695@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > *** Preliminary Announcement *** > > First Annual Classic Computer Collector Conference Sounds like fun. > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? How about Chuck Peddle? ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca CANADA email: walde@dlcwest.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From william at ans.net Mon Apr 28 11:16:01 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704281616.AA03404@interlock.ans.net> > > Some show features: > > Classic Computer Spotlight - every year a > > first show are Altair 8800; Apple ][; Commodore > > PET; ???). > > Yes - give the Altair it's time in the spotlight. > Next year do the PET. PDP-8, PDP-11, IBM S/3xx, Nova, etc. Computers were not invented in 1974, guys. > > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > > computer industry, but is not necessarily active > > anymore (ie. this precludes Bill Gates from > > qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? > > How about Babbage??? I'd bet a dollar anyone > running Winders never heard of the guy 8-) > Naw - go for Gary - without him there would > not have been a home computer (pulling up the > zipper on my flame proof suit) Cray, Amdahl, Olson, etc. - same reason as above. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 28 11:51:23 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <199704281616.AA03404@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > > qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > > > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? > > Cray, Amdahl, Olson, etc. - same reason as above. > Are we looking for a Guest of Honor or what? I know that Seymour Cray and Gary Kildall would find it difficult to attend on account of being sort of deceased. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Apr 28 12:01:21 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: BBSes on old hardware and SuperVIC Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204AB37AE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | ---------- | From: Doug Spence[SMTP:ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca] | Actually, I also want to build a kind of "SuperVIC" machine. I want it to | ba a luggable like my TeleVideo or Kaypro II Um, isn't that a Commodore SX-64? Kai From haleyk at okstate.edu Mon Apr 28 14:16:04 1997 From: haleyk at okstate.edu (haleyk@okstate.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: BBSes running on old computers... Message-ID: The IEEE student group that I belong to here at Oklahoma State just ran across an old z-80 based machine called a paraDynamics PRONTO. It seems to be a CP/M machine (we have a box of floppies for the twin 8" drives, and some are marked CP/M 86 and Microsoft Basic, etc.) The guy who was gonna chunk it in the trash said it had a USRobotics 1200 Baud modem and a 20 Meg HD along with 64K or RAM. He threw in a VT and soon as we can jumper around the rusty keyswitch, we hope to get some type of neat program to run on it for the heck of it, we threw around the idea of a BBS (albeit a slow one) possibly written in the BASIC that came with the machine. Has anyone used such a machine? Lets definately keep up the thread on BBSes and if we write it in a 4gl language, maybe a second list can be set up for the distribution of source code. BTW: we also got an IBM 5130.... It boots on a READY prompt, but we have NO CLUE what to do with it! We think the printer could be used as a boat anchor. hasta scott From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 28 14:43:29 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, it was a little bit disappointing for me. _NO_ old Radio Shack equipment, no old AT&T Unix PC stuff, and I wanted to find a Sinclair or two. I saw a few machines in the Apple II and C-64 categories, but I've never been big on the 6502. So my main acquisitions were a Sun Sparc 4/360 Unix system for $400, since I have a definite nitch for that in my little network, and a Motorola 6820 which I have no idea yet as to its contents, but at five dollars ($5.00) for a 100lb+ VMEbus box, I was willing to take a flyer. It's got to run at least _something_ related to Unix or OS-9. (Oh, and I got a free PC/AT which I'll be building into a word processor for a friend of my fiance). I also bought a new P133 notebook, but that doesn't cut any ice around this mailing list of course. Guess I'll actually have to start haunting the thrift stores. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Apr 28 17:22:56 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It would be a very good idea to make sure you have your collection nicely filled out before you do this. After the media tags 40 sec report to the end of a few news broadcasts Apple IIs really will cost $400. ;) ;) Maybe you'll be able to buy a house with an Altair. A while back I bought a spare CompuPro from a guy who collected computers as a curiosity. He was getting rid of the machine because it didn't fit in with the rest of the collection (wasn't an all-in-one micro). He didn't use the machines - just displayed them. It scares me that there are people who collect computers for looks and scares me more that they might find out that these things are "hot collectibles". :) The guy did have a really nice display though - hand-built wood shelving with various risers and built-in lights cartridge/disk/manual racks, etc. When exactly did it become cool to be a computer geek? Wasn't there a time when people posessing large numbers of computers were ridiculed in public? Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > *** Preliminary Announcement *** > > First Annual Classic Computer Collector Conference > > Why? From william at ans.net Mon Apr 28 19:01:34 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704290001.AA25412@interlock.ans.net> > He didn't use the machines - just displayed them. It > scares me that there are people who collect computers > for looks This does not scare me. Many things in my collection I never use, and do not plan on it (some I can not, for various reasons). What is important is that a collector respect the engineering and history of machines, and ignore the dollar values others place on them. Those that do place big dollar values (reasonable ones I have no problem with) are evil, and should be stopped. Dealers have ruined or crippled many hobbies due to greed (the radio/electron tube scene is a crying shame). William Donzelli william@ans.net From danjo at xnet.com Mon Apr 28 21:18:17 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: The Classic Computer Encyclopedia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well! Finally, after what 37 days, we got up to 10 entries on the Classic Computer Encyclopedia web page. We went to 7 or 8 real quick and then we stalled. We are still looking for pics on some of these. Come on you guys! You got come by and put more stuff in here 8-) It costs you nothing, it costs the list and Bill nothing. (I darn near forgot about it until today 8-) You can even *register* your hardware (now only if you HAVE one wink wink nudge nudge - you know) If Sam is going to have a Classic Computer Review (Not a bad name if I say so myself 8-) we need to get MORE machines listed on this thing. Dig into that memory (organic - not silicon) and start filling in the hardware specs you know. BC * You can get there of the Classic Computer Home Page or got direct * at http://www.xnet.com/~danjo/classic/ From BigLouS at aol.com Mon Apr 28 21:44:52 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: TI 99 & a good weekend Message-ID: <970428224451_1520810716@emout03.mail.aol.com> I managed to pick up a beige, all plastic TI 99/A this weekend and if I remember prior posts this is an uncommon version of this machine. I also saw what looked like the standard black and chrome machine except that it had no chrome at all. Did TI ever make such a machine or is it a standard machine that was mutilated by some brute? I also picked up a Commodore SX64 and a Franklin Ace 1000 (a sentimental favorite of mine) as well as a CoCo floppy drive and interface cartridge. It was a great weekend. Lou From BigLouS at aol.com Mon Apr 28 21:44:58 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) Message-ID: <970428224447_-532446117@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-26 20:44:04 EDT, you write: > I also remember seeing Apple III's and Atari 800's on sale at Weinstock's. > There was a strange time for a while in the late 70's and early 80's when > many department stores had a "computer department". This was the case > in Sacramento, was it like that in other cities? > > --pec > Yes Macy's in New York had a computer section in its electronic's department. Lou From transit at primenet.com Mon Apr 28 21:50:01 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: TI 99 & a good weekend In-Reply-To: <970428224451_1520810716@emout03.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > I managed to pick up a beige, all plastic TI 99/A this weekend and if I > remember prior posts this is an uncommon version of this machine. I also saw > what looked like the standard black and chrome machine except that it had no > chrome at all. Did TI ever make such a machine or is it a standard machine > that was mutilated by some brute? The beige TI 99/4A was a newer version that came out in 1993. Many (if not all) of those TI's were redesigned by TI so as not to run third-party cartridge software (TI wanted absolute control of that market--desperate moves by a product division bleeding red ink.) As for the TI without any chrome at all . . .did it look painted, or . . . From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon Apr 28 22:27:37 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: weekend additions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The plus/4 could run *some* very simple basic programs from 64/vic-20 land but even that was a chore if I remember correctly because of the different ways the computers "tokenized" basic. (some 64 tokens represented different plus/4 basic keywords, etc.) As fot the "black" 1541, it was known as a 1551 but was basically the same as a 1541. All it did was match the color of the plus/4. There was also a "parallel" drive for this computer (well I think there was) called an SFX-1??? something or other. Les From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon Apr 28 22:55:44 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: Funky looking mouse and other TCF stuff... Message-ID: Hi guys, just wanted to say what I got at TCF. I managed to get there at 3:45 on Sunday (15 minutes before closing on the last day of the show.) Anyway here's what I got: 2 Seagate MFM Hard Drives *FREE* 1 Sysquest tape(?) drive *FREE* the tape drive is about the size of a CD-ROM, what is it? 1 Apple IIe Users Guide *FREE* (why? I dunno, it was in the trash) 1 CBM 8032 $5 (this things got some kind of memory board that plugs into the CPU socket and a parallel interface) 1 Funky Mouse *FREE* This last thing I need help with. It looks to be about 20+ years old but I could be wrong... It is bright red, almost perfectly round, has a steel ball as the roller, 3 black switches, and says "5271" and then "DEPRAZ - MOUSE" on the bottom. It has what looks likea standard serial cable. The guy said it was for a terminal right before he threw it out. Any ideas? More importantly.... do you think I could use it on my PeeCEE? 8) Les PS what'd everyone else get at TCF? From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 29 00:08:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: Software database for you collector-types In-Reply-To: <199704281210.NAA18040@cream.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Kevan Heydon wrote: > > In message <199704281022.DAA10960@covina.lightside.com>you write: > > Howdy, > > I just thought of something. Are any of you using a database to > > catalogue what software you use/have for these old machines? > > I don't just explicitly use a database just for software, but I do use a > database to catalogue my computer collection as a whole and this does > include software. > > I started using SGML with my own DTD, but I soon started hitting > limitations, so I now use a PostgreSQL database. I generate all the > pages for my web site using this database and a Python program. (I am > currently working on a web based admin system for it also.) I use FoxPro to catalogue my game carthridges, and as soon as I get a good handle on all the different classic systems, peripherals and components I have, I will catalogue those as well. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From zmerch at northernway.net Tue Apr 29 00:29:51 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: emulator board help Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970429012950.00937790@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, hellige happened to blather: >On 28-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > >>I seem to recall that Definicon made coprocessor boards (68000 series, and >>maybe 32016 series as well) for PC's. You rean special language compilers >>on the PC that converted your high-level source into machine code for the >>68000 or whatever, and ran it on the coprocessor board > > What would be the point in doing this though, if the board didn't emulate a >specific 68000 series computer? Jeff, It's way past my bedtime, but I just had to comment on this post... Believe it or not, the board doesn't have to emulate a specific 68K computer... it *is* a specific 68K computer! The board quite possibly was a system that would just use the PeeCee's hard/floppy/parallel/serial (etc.) ports and would run OS-9/68K or another viable 68K operating system of the day (Xenix?). This in itself is not new... shortly after the IBM-PC came out there was a 68000 board for it that ran OS-9. Remember, the 68K was first, and by then already had several super-powerful (compared to MS-Dog) OS's available for the platform. I have a review of one in an old copy of Byte laying around somewhere around here. BTW, put away the asbestos... it's not a flame! I'm just tired (& cranky) and don't have a bad case of run-on fingers like usual! See ya, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 29 00:24:27 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > *** Preliminary Announcement *** > > First Annual Classic Computer Collector Conference > > > > Why? > > Next question... > > Wait a minute - still a good question that must be > answered for any backer to take on the show. I'm sure I'll be a bit more descriptive when approaching potential sponsors. > > Where? > > Livermore, California (tentative...actual venue TBD) > > Well, THAT cuts out about 99% of the world 8-) How about > a Travelling Show? Naw...Livermore is actually a great spot for a classic computer faire. Nearby Pleasanton offers a plethora of high-tech corporations to hit up for sponsorship. The Lawrence Livermore Labs is (literally) right across the street, and we are a short freeway drive to the Silicon Valley. Also, since I live in Livermore, it's offers the least hassle to host the show. I don't expect a big turnout the first year. I don't even expect a nominal turnout. I figure if I'm lucky, 50 people will show up, but these types of shows always start off small. We are on the cutting edge of a budding movement to preserve a part of the worlds digital heritage. These things take time to grow. > > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > > computer industry, but is not necessarily active > > anymore (ie. this precludes Bill Gates from > > qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? > > How about Babbage??? I'd bet a dollar anyone > running Winders never heard of the guy 8-) > Naw - go for Gary - without him there would > not have been a home computer (pulling up the > zipper on my flame proof suit) The historical promotion of Babbage is better left to the Smithsonian. > Well, I think it's a neat idea - but you have to do > some followup work too. Release videos of the seminars > and do hardcopy of the show as well as most of us aren't > going to make it 8-( I planned media coverage and will document it for those unable to attend. Of course a web page will accompany the show. > Also, as for what machine to pick, just pick one that I have. > Nothing ups the price of a system like a good news article 8-) I'm not really doing this to increase the perceived value of my collection. I'm doing it because I love classic computers. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 29 00:26:06 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <199704281523.JAA24695@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > *** Preliminary Announcement *** > > > > First Annual Classic Computer Collector Conference > > Sounds like fun. > > > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > > Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? > > How about Chuck Peddle? Who? (please explain!) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 29 00:31:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <199704281616.AA03404@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Some show features: > > > Classic Computer Spotlight - every year a > > > first show are Altair 8800; Apple ][; Commodore > > > PET; ???). > > > > Yes - give the Altair it's time in the spotlight. > > Next year do the PET. > > PDP-8, PDP-11, IBM S/3xx, Nova, etc. Computers were not invented in 1974, > guys. Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. Care to? > > > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > > > computer industry, but is not necessarily active > > > anymore (ie. this precludes Bill Gates from > > > qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > > > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? > > > > How about Babbage??? I'd bet a dollar anyone > > running Winders never heard of the guy 8-) > > Naw - go for Gary - without him there would > > not have been a home computer (pulling up the > > zipper on my flame proof suit) > > Cray, Amdahl, Olson, etc. - same reason as above. Good suggestions. But for the first year, recognizable names from the annals of computer history would go a longer way towards gaining support from sponsors and such. This is in my opinion. Anyone care to offer a challenge to this? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 29 00:37:07 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > It would be a very good idea to make sure you have your > collection nicely filled out before you do this. After > the media tags 40 sec report to the end of a few news > broadcasts Apple IIs really will cost $400. ;) ;) Media damage control will be foremost in my mind. I realize no matter what you tell a reporter, they'll always turn your words around 180 degrees and the story will end up being about how we repair broken computers or something equally banal. > > Maybe you'll be able to buy a house with an Altair. > A while back I bought a spare CompuPro from a guy who > collected computers as a curiosity. He was getting > rid of the machine because it didn't fit in with the > rest of the collection (wasn't an all-in-one micro). > He didn't use the machines - just displayed them. It > scares me that there are people who collect computers > for looks and scares me more that they might find out > that these things are "hot collectibles". :) The guy > did have a really nice display though - hand-built > wood shelving with various risers and built-in lights > cartridge/disk/manual racks, etc. These are the guys that scare me. Did he at least know how to use some of his machines? > When exactly did it become cool to be a computer geek? > Wasn't there a time when people posessing large numbers > of computers were ridiculed in public? Yeah, but then people realized a lot of computer geeks make a lot of money, and they stopped laughing at them. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue Apr 29 03:39:11 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: BBSes on old hardware and SuperVIC In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204AB37AE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > | ---------- > | From: Doug Spence[SMTP:ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca] > | Actually, I also want to build a kind of "SuperVIC" machine. > I want it to > | ba a luggable like my TeleVideo or Kaypro II > > Um, isn't that a Commodore SX-64? No, because the SX-64 is a _64_, with the C64's ports and sitting horizontally instead of vertically when in use. Don't get in the way of my vision. ;) > > Kai > Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue Apr 29 03:59:34 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > > > *** Preliminary Announcement *** > > > > > > First Annual Classic Computer Collector Conference > > > > Sounds like fun. > > > > > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > > > Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > > > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? > > > > How about Chuck Peddle? > > Who? (please explain!) Chuck Peddle was one of the guys who left Motorola and founded MOS Technology. I believe he's generally credited with the creation of the 6502 processor (along with Bill Mensch? Or was it Mensch that did most of the work?). Peddle has also been called "Father of the PET" because he designed the PET for Commodore. After Commodore, he left Commodore, he founded another company where he made 8086-based machines that ran MS-DOS but weren't, I believe, IBM-PC compatible (the Victor 9000?). I'll second his nomination, and with great trepidation add Jay Miner to the list. :) > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue Apr 29 04:23:19 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: PET to S100 bus interface Message-ID: I'd just like to make an update for all who may be interested in that potential PET to S100 bus device that I had sitting in storage. I pulled it out tonight instead of studying for exams, and it is indeed what was suspected. The "motherboard" (if that is the correct term) is a Vector Graphic Inc. S100 bus board. The RAM board that was being used for the PET, is a Vector Graphic Inc. 16K Static RAM board with a date of 1977 on it. The power supply says "KIMSI-PLUS Power Supply" on the back, 1977 from Forethought Products. This is all very wild, because I had no idea there was S100 stuff in this house. Anyway, the really interesting piece of circuitry is the PET to S100 interface board. It's the same size as the RAM board, and of course plugs into the S100 bus. At the top of the board is a 50-pin connector that plugs into a cable, that in turn plugs into the side memory expansion connector on the PET 2001. In white lettering, it says .----------. |_| | | |_|| | | |_| | || (<-- my cheezy attempt at duplicating the company .----------' logo with ASCII, it's HUH surrounded by a question .ELECTRONICS mark.) S100 MPA and etched into the board it says "COPYRIGHT 1978 BY HUH" and "S100 MPA REV A". The board isn't very heavily populated, compared to the RAM board, and most of the chips are 74LSxx chips. Anyone out there know more than I do about this thing? Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl Tue Apr 29 05:24:13 1997 From: strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl (Krzysztof Strzecha) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: Sharp MZ-800 Message-ID: <199704291024.MAA04555@kis.p.lodz.pl> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 216 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970429/d75923ed/attachment.ksh From walgen at do.isst.fhg.de Tue Apr 29 05:44:30 1997 From: walgen at do.isst.fhg.de (Stefan Walgenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: Sharp MZ-800 Message-ID: <01BC549A.849A4210@odie.do.isst.fhg.de> -----Original Message----- From: Krzysztof Strzecha [SMTP:strzecha@kis.p.lodz.pl] Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 1997 12:29 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Sharp MZ-800 >Hi all ! > > I recently bought SHARP MZ-800 with no documentation, either programs etc. > Could anyone help me find any information & programs for it ? I have a MZ-800 with 2x5.25"-Disk, manual and service-docs. I also have a working boot-disk. Tell me what you need ... You can also contact: Nobuaki Ohishi at GFB00551@niftyserve.or.jp he knows everything about MZs. There are some WWW-pages at http://may.csse.muroran-it.ac.jp/~ogawa/MZMuseum/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2756 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970429/b58d1a62/attachment.bin From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 29 07:20:13 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: TI 99 & a good weekend In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > The beige TI 99/4A was a newer version that came out in 1993. 1983, surely. :-) > Many (if not > all) of those TI's were redesigned by TI so as not to run third-party > cartridge software (TI wanted absolute control of that market--desperate > moves by a product division bleeding red ink.) Is that true? Eek... I have a dislike for TI (besides, they discontinued the machine I learned BASIC on just as I was getting interested), but that's just too much. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 29 07:34:06 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of > mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal > to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. > Care to? How about the advent of Unix and C? Both made for the PDP-11. And the PDP-8 was considered the first potentially personal computer (it could fit in your house, albeit it cost in the vicinity of $10k when it first came out). Ok, so the PDPs didn't influence hardware that much and they weren't home computers. But software is equally important, and I don't even care to estimate the percentage of running systems written in C. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Tue Apr 29 08:13:11 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: Non-micro classics Message-ID: <199704291313.AA25824@bs014.swec.com> In the lengthy "Re: yo" thread, Mr. Ismail mentions: [double-quote from Mr. Donzelli] > > PDP-8, PDP-11, IBM S/3xx, Nova, etc. Computers were not invented in 1974, > > guys. > > Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of > mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal > to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. > Care to? It's probably fair to say the the minicomputer actually made more of an impact in society than the micro has. It was the minicomputer which was first affordable to smaller companies and operations; the mini was also the first class of machine available to schools of modest means. You'll find that almost every microcomputer designer was, at some point in time, touched by a mini, and sometimes their designs reflect that. One of the original Apple's designers actually held the DG Nova in such high esteem it's rumoured that he kept a picture of one taped to his bedroom wall. Billy Gates did the original work on his BASIC interpreter with stolen time on a PDP-10 (though, that can't really be termed a mini). Most of the impact, though, of the mini is behind the scenes; they made manufacturing more efficient through the increased use of CNC, made scientific experimentation more prodcutive through more accurate experiment monitoring, and found their way into all manner of hospital equipment. This isn't meant to downplay the changes brought forth by the microcomputer, which with the advent of the Internet are enormous, but merely to place the minicomputer in the light of day. The changes were different from the micro, but certainly not unimportant. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From gram at cnct.com Tue Apr 29 08:20:30 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: Funky looking mouse and other TCF stuff... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > PS what'd everyone else get at TCF? > After manhandling one 150lb computer (Motorola 6820, no idea of the specs but it should run something related to Unix or OS-9, for five bucks I'll try anything once and I can always put the tape and disk drives into the Sun) into the car and into the cellar Saturday, then the same more or less with the Sun 4/360 (similar weight PLUS a 20inch monitor, $400) on Sunday, I was just too tired to go dumpster diving this year. Plus, there wasn't a lot of room left in the little Mitsubishi. (I _thought_ Lisa and I were renting a U-Haul, but our local place was out of anything in a reasonable size). -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Tue Apr 29 08:30:03 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of > mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal > to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. > Care to? Well, the DECs had a serious impact on history for those of us whose normal command prompt is a simple dollar sign. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From scott at saskatoon.com Tue Apr 29 09:08:15 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <199704291405.IAA28063@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > > How about Chuck Peddle? > > Who? (please explain!) Chuck Peddle, while working at Motorola, was on the design team for the 6800. He and a number of other engineers on the team had a number of enhancements that they wanted to make to the chip, but the higher-ups wouldn't let them. They left Motorola to form MOS Technology, and developed the 6502 line of CPUS. When Commodore decided to get into the Personal Computer market, they bought MOS. One theory is that they primarily wanted Peddle. Chuck went on to design the early Commodore machines. (I'm not sure how involved he was in the Kim-1, but he almost singlehandedly designed the first PETs.) This is mostly off the top of my head. If I made any glaring errors (or minor ones, for that matter), please let me know. (If you do an Alta-vista search for +commodore +"chuck peddle" you will get around 40 pages with info on him.) > Sam ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca CANADA email: walde@dlcwest.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From danjo at xnet.com Tue Apr 29 09:10:21 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > > On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: [Snip] > > > Where? > > > Livermore, California (tentative...actual venue TBD) > > > > Well, THAT cuts out about 99% of the world 8-) How about > > a Travelling Show? > > Naw...Livermore is actually a great spot for a classic computer faire. > Nearby Pleasanton offers a plethora of high-tech corporations to hit up > for sponsorship. The Lawrence Livermore Labs is (literally) right across > the street, and we are a short freeway drive to the Silicon Valley. > Also, since I live in Livermore, it's offers the least hassle to host the > show. I don't expect a big turnout the first year. I don't even expect > a nominal turnout. I figure if I'm lucky, 50 people will show up, but > these types of shows always start off small. We are on the cutting edge > of a budding movement to preserve a part of the worlds digital heritage. > These things take time to grow. Ya but I'd be there 8-) (Now let's see - how do I move my vacation time around again) Aside:[I wonder if you can get an educational grant for the Travelling idea tho - you know schools and stuff so the kids can see what it all started from. You could start small on that too.] > > > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > > > computer industry, but is not necessarily active > > > anymore (ie. this precludes Bill Gates from > > > qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > > > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? > > How about Babbage??? I'd bet a dollar anyone > > running Winders never heard of the guy 8-) > > Naw - go for Gary - without him there would > > not have been a home computer (pulling up the > > zipper on my flame proof suit) > The historical promotion of Babbage is better left to the Smithsonian. Well, from a *media* standpoint, there is more info already available to newspaper idiots^H^H^H^H^H^Hreporters on Babbage (plus the Enquirer can take the Ada twist 8-) so they don't get it too wrong 8-) > > Well, I think it's a neat idea - but you have to do > > some followup work too. Release videos of the seminars > > and do hardcopy of the show as well as most of us aren't > > going to make it 8-( > > I planned media coverage and will document it for those unable to > attend. Of course a web page will accompany the show. Well, what I really want to see is all the info on restoring cases, kwyboards(!), and paper docs. > > Also, as for what machine to pick, just pick one that I have. > > Nothing ups the price of a system like a good news article 8-) > > I'm not really doing this to increase the perceived value of my > collection. I'm doing it because I love classic computers. *I* didn't think so Sam, but YOU KNOW what will happen 8-( Another problem with the idea is after the first one - what's left? Maybe it would be better to - more or less - specialize. Cover one machine exclusively. Cover everybody that worked on it - the history behind the processor, the design, try to talk to the people involved why they did one thing or the other. Get this documented before they are all gone 8-( Just ike some of the books about DEC and Apple - except you get to TALK to these people (I see a room with huge coffee pots and 30 gallon butt cans, dimly lit, slight murmuring as we all ask deep *meaning of life* questions like "Why did the KIM-1 use 6530 RIOTs instead of 6522 and a seperate ROM?" 8-) (That one always bugged me!) And then follow that with a bright glitsy show on what you use NOW that has all the same stuff in it! Boy am I starting to ramble! BC From danjo at xnet.com Tue Apr 29 09:29:59 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Some show features: > > > > Classic Computer Spotlight - every year a > > > > first show are Altair 8800; Apple ][; Commodore > > > > PET; ???). > > > > > > Yes - give the Altair it's time in the spotlight. > > > Next year do the PET. > > > > PDP-8, PDP-11, IBM S/3xx, Nova, etc. Computers were not invented in 1974, > > guys. Well, I also have a Abacus 8-) NOW THAT IS AN OLD HARDWARE DESIGN! > Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of > mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal > to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. > Care to? Well, I think the point the mini's made was fundamental to the micros history. Coming from the 60's (oops) I remember the ?joy? of realizing that you didn't need a powerplant and a huge room of boxes with spinning tape drives chilled to just above freezing to have a computer 8-) That is what the minis did, for me and businesses. There were technological advances sure, but if you wheren't IN the know, very few people know the processor was that desk over there and not all that *other* stuff. Once seeing a PDP-8, it kind of hit home that, Yes you could pack all the power of a room full of stuff into one half hieght 19" rack with a mini and a tape reader with one ASR-33. It changed the way people *viewed* the computer. > > > > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > > > > computer industry, but is not necessarily active > > > > anymore (ie. this precludes Bill Gates from > > > > qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > > > > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? > > > > > > How about Babbage??? I'd bet a dollar anyone > > > running Winders never heard of the guy 8-) > > > Naw - go for Gary - without him there would > > > not have been a home computer (pulling up the > > > zipper on my flame proof suit) > > > > Cray, Amdahl, Olson, etc. - same reason as above. > > Good suggestions. But for the first year, recognizable names from the > annals of computer history would go a longer way towards gaining support > from sponsors and such. This is in my opinion. Anyone care to offer a > challenge to this? I don't know Sam, (as I stated before 8-) maybe if you specialized you could get support from those involved. I mean Cray is loosing market share but might fork over some bucks/equipment/mock-ups if you said - "Look, we want to feature Cray as founding father who help make desktop computers a reality. Without his foresight, we could not have gotten where we are today." Gee, advertizing! And then find out who he had a running battle with and ask them too! Explain how the *battle* improved the world for everyone. Nobody was right - nobody was wrong. It's just how things went. BC From BigLouS at aol.com Tue Apr 29 09:54:48 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: TI 99 & a good weekend Message-ID: <970429105245_1288664625@emout13.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-29 00:50:04 EDT, Charles P. Hobbs writes: << As for the TI without any chrome at all . . .did it look painted, or . . . >> I didn't take a really close look but it didn't appear to be painted. It also seemed to have a circle on the case above the keyboard. Lou From george.lin at documentum.com Tue Apr 29 09:54:46 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429075446.00a87100@lion.documentum.com> At 10:24 PM 4/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >Naw...Livermore is actually a great spot for a classic computer faire. >Nearby Pleasanton offers a plethora of high-tech corporations to hit up >for sponsorship. The Lawrence Livermore Labs is (literally) right across >the street, and we are a short freeway drive to the Silicon Valley. >Also, since I live in Livermore, it's offers the least hassle to host the >show. I don't expect a big turnout the first year. I don't even expect >a nominal turnout. I figure if I'm lucky, 50 people will show up, but >these types of shows always start off small. We are on the cutting edge I am one of those 50 people. I am in Pleasanton. 8-) George -- George Lin "Accelerating your business through Network Architect, MIS enterprise document managment." Documentum, Inc. (Nasdaq: DCTM) http://www.documentum.com Email Fax mailto:remote-printer.George_Lin@4.3.8.6.3.6.4.0.1.5.1.tpc.int My PGP Public Key for encryption is at http://george.home.ml.org/pgp.htm From idavis at comland.com Tue Apr 29 10:06:48 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: Atari prob, etc. Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970429150648.0090a4d8@mail.comland.com > At 09:07 PM 4/27/97 -0800, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: >The 1200XL is a different matter, Powered up, got the logo, went to >diagnostics, sound O.K., Memory looks good, but keyboard... I can get >the top row (reset,start,select,option, & help) working but the other >keys seem dead. The strange thing is I gboot up BASIC and I press a >letter and the computer responds with it's 'click' sound but no key >(maybe something in the decoding logic???) Any Atarians got a clue? > >Since I only have the one power supply I had to power up the 1050 as a >standalone the head did a quick back-fourth motion and the activity >light stopped so that seems to be a promising sign. Second request: >When I get a second supply I gonna kinda need a disk to run on this >thing, can anyone help set me up with some essential disks (DOS, >utilities, maybe some common games, etc.) I can trade for some fine >Commodore Programs and such. (=)) > I can't really tell you about the 1200XL, but it might have a connector loose or not making a good connection inside. You might take it apart and reseat the keyboard connector or ribbon whichever it may be. As for power supplies, you should be able to get an equivalent power supply at radio shack. Just bring the atari one in, and they should be able to match it. I can ship off a couple of disks to you with DOS, and a few games. I will check out your web page for your address, but if it's not there, just let me know where to send the disks. There is a guy here in Austin, that has a lot of atari software for sale at really great prices. His name is Rick Detlefsen and his email address is 74766.1561@CompuServe.COM I have bought some software and an 850 interface from him, and his prices are great. I think I paid $0.60 for a Robotron cart from him, and it even had the box and manual. I will put together a few disks with some stuff on it, and send them to you. Hope this helps. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From william at ans.net Tue Apr 29 10:09:50 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704291509.AA22117@interlock.ans.net> > How about the advent of Unix and C? Both made for the PDP-11. And the > PDP-8 was considered the first potentially personal computer (it could fit > in your house, albeit it cost in the vicinity of $10k when it first came > out). > > Ok, so the PDPs didn't influence hardware that much and they weren't home > computers. The 68000 series was based on the PDP-11 design. Not much influence? William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Tue Apr 29 10:13:29 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704291513.AA22486@interlock.ans.net> > > Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of > > mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal > > to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. > > Care to? I think the IBM 360s made a huge difference. All of a sudden, everyone's paychecks, bank statements, bills, etc. were printed by a computer. William Donzelli william@ans.net From transit at primenet.com Tue Apr 29 11:05:23 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: TI 99 & a good weekend In-Reply-To: <970429105245_1288664625@emout13.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-04-29 00:50:04 EDT, Charles P. Hobbs writes: > > << As for the TI without any chrome at all . . .did it look painted, or . . . > >> > > I didn't take a really close look but it didn't appear to be painted. It also > seemed to have a circle on the case above the keyboard. My guess is that someone peeled off the chrome veneer from the plastic substrate . . . From zmerch at northernway.net Tue Apr 29 15:01:42 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:10 2005 Subject: Atari prob, etc. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970429150648.0090a4d8@mail.comland.com > Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429160142.009482b0@208.128.145.1> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Isaac Davis said: >As for power >supplies, you should be able to get an equivalent power supply at radio >shack. Just bring the atari one in, and they should be able to match it. Nope. Sorry about this, but I used to work for RS and I have an Atari 800... (sorry... no spare power supplies) and I can honestly say that I doubt you will find any power supply from there that puts out AC. The only machine that I can remember (and I remember most) from RS that took an AC wart was the Tandy MC-10 (micro color computer), which took 8VAC at 1A IIRC. You can't even get this PS from RS anymore, and it was for their own computer! Sadly, if it ain't DC, RS won't have one... One thing I would be willing to do (when I have time, which won't be for at least a month) is to open one of my PS's for an exact schematic & parts list to build your own. I do know all the parts to build an AC PS are available at the Shack... not sure of cost, of course. Lemme know if you want me to do this, and remind me in a couple of months that I volunteered to perform said surgery. >I can ship off a couple of disks to you with DOS, and a few games. I will >check out your web page for your address, but if it's not there, just let me >know where to send the disks. On this note... I do know that there is a *lot* of software on the Web for 8-bits, but does anyone know where I can find a utility to read/write SSSD Atari disks on my IBM? I do know that the extended density stuff is just not possible on PeeCee's, but SD should be possible. Hope this helps, and TIA as well! "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From idavis at comland.com Tue Apr 29 15:47:24 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: Atari prob, etc. Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970429204724.008eb34c@mail.comland.com > At 04:01 PM 4/29/97 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: >Nope. Sorry about this, but I used to work for RS and I have an Atari >800... (sorry... no spare power supplies) and I can honestly say that I >doubt you will find any power supply from there that puts out AC. The only >machine that I can remember (and I remember most) from RS that took an AC >wart was the Tandy MC-10 (micro color computer), which took 8VAC at 1A >IIRC. You can't even get this PS from RS anymore, and it was for their own >computer! > >Sadly, if it ain't DC, RS won't have one... > >One thing I would be willing to do (when I have time, which won't be for at >least a month) is to open one of my PS's for an exact schematic & parts >list to build your own. I do know all the parts to build an AC PS are >available at the Shack... not sure of cost, of course. > >Lemme know if you want me to do this, and remind me in a couple of months >that I volunteered to perform said surgery. > That's a shocker for me. I think I need to learn a little more about electronics, and if you tear yours apart, I would love to have a copy of the schematics. It might be a good learners project for me, and useful as well. >On this note... I do know that there is a *lot* of software on the Web for >8-bits, but does anyone know where I can find a utility to read/write SSSD >Atari disks on my IBM? I do know that the extended density stuff is just >not possible on PeeCee's, but SD should be possible. At http://www.emulators.com the now have the schematics for their xformer cable on the web site, which should work with their xformer software, there is also a product called ape which is at http://www.nacs.net/~classics which allows you to connect your atari to a pc. They also have schematics and a program to run an atari disk with a pc, to copy and create disks. I have read a lot of flap about incompatibilities writing disks back and forth between the two types of drives. Of course, you could get a black box or an atr8000 and I think that would allow you to use a pc floppy with your atari. I have actually never tried any of these, I just use a null modem cable and transfer the software back and forth. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From jeffh at eleventh.com Mon Apr 28 21:31:46 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 29-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >I'll second his nomination, and with great trepidation add Jay Miner to >the list. :) I think Jay Miner is definately worthy of inclusion since he did much of the design of the Atari 8bit machines, such as the 400/800, and he is generally considered the father of the Amiga line. Out of curiosity, is anyone willing to nominate Jack Tremiel? Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Apr 29 17:01:16 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: ethernet and apple2GS Message-ID: <199704292201.QAA14709@calico.litterbox.com> As those of you who follow the comp.sys.apple2 groups know, there never was an ethernet board for the apple2, and the one that apple designed for the 2gs never went into large scale production. This annoys me, since the gs is certainly capable of running network applications - it comes from the factory with appletalk/localtalk. So I've been thinking about this problem for a while. Before I go into my "solution", I should mention that I'm in no way an electronic engineer, and the odds of my even attempting to do this on my own, let alone succeeding, aren't very good. But it seemed like an idea at least worth sharing, on the grounds that maybe one of you who IS an engineer could make some bucks inventing this thing. My idea is this: build an ethernet board for the apple2 series with the following parameters: 1. it looks to the system exactly like a localtalk board, only faster. 2. it has enough brains to analyze outgoing frames to see if, in fact, what is being sent is ip encapsulated in appletalk. If so, de-encapsulate it and transmit it as straight IP. - this is a software issue, really, but it needs to happen in the firmware of the ethernet board, so... 3. It has enough brains to analyze incoming frames and determine if in fact the frame is an IP frame. If so, encapsulate it in appletalk and feed it to the system. 4. It has a way of turning all this brainpower off and being driven with a normal ethernet driver running on the host system. 5. It can do any translation between appletalk and ethertalk so the machine can talk to it's Macintosh kin. My reasoning for all the shenanigans with appletalk and ip is this: no standard mechanism exists for talking to an ethernet board in an apple2. However, the GS comes with atalk drivers in rom, and you can get them for earlier apples, and a lot of software does do tcp-ip over appletalk, assuming it's going to be talking to an appletalk/IP router downstream. Caviets: I haven't looked at the appletalk/ethertalk/localtalk protocol to make sure what I'm suggesting is sane. Same goes for tcp-ip over appletalk. There's a standard for this stuff, but I haven't looked it up yet. Anyway, that's my idea. Feedback will be greatly appreciated. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Apr 29 17:15:18 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: ethernet and apple2GS In-Reply-To: <199704292201.QAA14709@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Jim wrote: > My idea is this: build an ethernet board for the apple2 series with the > following parameters: 1. it looks to the system exactly like a localtalk > board, only faster. 2. it has enough brains to analyze outgoing frames to > see if, in fact, what is being sent is ip encapsulated in appletalk. If so, > de-encapsulate it and transmit it as straight IP. - this is a software issue, > really, but it needs to happen in the firmware of the ethernet board, so... > 3. It has enough brains to analyze incoming frames and determine if in > fact the frame is an IP frame. If so, encapsulate it in appletalk and > feed it to the system. It seems to me that it would be a lot easier to write a driver for an existing parallel port ethernet adapter. I looked into this some time back and decided I'm just not a good enough programmer ;). But, if you're really into this it would eliminate any hardware development. There are other possible devices that could be modified too - like the Asante SCSI -> ethernet adapter. I picked up one of these to see if it would be any easier to work with but was never able to find sufficient documentation to answer my questions. For now, I appletalk to my mac and ethernet to my other machines. It gets the job done but just doesn't satisfy the dogged computer geek in you. While I'm here - does anybody want a Tandy OEM'd dual bernoulli box? I just dug it out of the back of my storage space and can't remember just why I have it. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Apr 29 17:23:11 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: ethernet and apple2GS In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at Apr 29, 97 03:15:18 pm Message-ID: <199704292223.QAA14822@calico.litterbox.com> Absolutely true, it would be eiaser to go with a parallel port - ethernet adapter or a scsi-ethernet adapter. Except that there are no bidrectional parallel port cards for apple2, and at least the ramfast scsi card won't deal with ethernet adapters correctly. And again, none of the software would support it unless you convince the system it's appletalk. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Apr 29 17:26:56 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: ethernet and apple2GS In-Reply-To: <199704292223.QAA14822@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim" at Apr 29, 97 04:23:11 pm Message-ID: <199704292226.QAA14850@calico.litterbox.com> On review, my last message in response to why not use a parallel or scsi ethernet adapter seems a bit terse. No offence was intended, and I appreciate any feedback I get. Thanks. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Apr 29 17:29:59 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: ethernet and apple2GS In-Reply-To: <199704292226.QAA14850@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim" at Apr 29, 97 04:26:56 pm Message-ID: <199704292229.QAA14871@calico.litterbox.com> And by the way, if anyone has one of these exceedingly rare prototype apple2GS ethernet boards that they'd be willing to sell, I'm interested. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Apr 29 17:34:54 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: ethernet and apple2GS In-Reply-To: <199704292223.QAA14822@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: > Absolutely true, it would be eiaser to go with a parallel port - ethernet > adapter or a scsi-ethernet adapter. Except that there are no bidrectional > parallel port cards for apple2, and at least the ramfast scsi card won't > deal with ethernet adapters correctly. And again, none of the software > would support it unless you convince the system it's appletalk. Already been down that route I see ;). My Linksys adapter claims to work in Unidirectional mode... Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From KFergason at aol.com Tue Apr 29 18:32:07 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <970429193201_-467416177@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-29 11:22:24 EDT, you write: << Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. Care to? >> someone can correct me if necessary, but weren't the first PDP's pretty "important" in that respect? Suddenly, universities could have their own systems. or maybe I am dreaming, mixing stories from various books. Kelly From groberts at mitre.org Tue Apr 29 19:52:35 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: PET to S100 bus interface In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429205235.007c98d0@postman> fyi, on p. 272 of November '79 Byte: a company called AB Computers offered a device called "BETSI", described as a "PET to S-100 Interface & Motherboard". cost was $119. While i'm on that page, the PET was $795 for the entry level system (8K, small keybd, cassette) and on the high end: $1,295 for 32K system with "business" keyboard. A 2040 dual diskette drive (343,000 bytes total) would set you back another $1,295. At 05:23 AM 4/29/97 -0400, you wrote: > >I'd just like to make an update for all who may be interested in that >potential PET to S100 bus device that I had sitting in storage. > >I pulled it out tonight instead of studying for exams, and it is indeed >what was suspected. > >The "motherboard" (if that is the correct term) is a Vector Graphic Inc. >S100 bus board. The RAM board that was being used for the PET, is a >Vector Graphic Inc. 16K Static RAM board with a date of 1977 on it. The >power supply says "KIMSI-PLUS Power Supply" on the back, 1977 from >Forethought Products. > >This is all very wild, because I had no idea there was S100 stuff in this >house. > >Anyway, the really interesting piece of circuitry is the PET to S100 >interface board. It's the same size as the RAM board, and of course plugs >into the S100 bus. At the top of the board is a 50-pin connector that >plugs into a cable, that in turn plugs into the side memory expansion >connector on the PET 2001. > >In white lettering, it says >.----------. >|_| | | |_|| >| | |_| | || (<-- my cheezy attempt at duplicating the company >.----------' logo with ASCII, it's HUH surrounded by a question >.ELECTRONICS mark.) > > S100 MPA > >and etched into the board it says "COPYRIGHT 1978 BY HUH" and "S100 MPA >REV A". > >The board isn't very heavily populated, compared to the RAM board, and >most of the chips are 74LSxx chips. > >Anyone out there know more than I do about this thing? > > >Doug Spence >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > > > From mhop at snip.net Tue Apr 29 22:43:58 1997 From: mhop at snip.net (mhop) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: Questions about this mailling list Message-ID: <19970430034533687.AAB210@computer-name> How do I change back to the way I had it before where the mail would arrive separately rather than 40 in one message? Are they really the same messages? When I subscribed to the weekly thing, it seemed that the message thread had completely changed. mhop@snip.net From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 29 23:53:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of > > mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal > > to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. > > Care to? > > How about the advent of Unix and C? Both made for the PDP-11. And the > PDP-8 was considered the first potentially personal computer (it could fit > in your house, albeit it cost in the vicinity of $10k when it first came > out). > > Ok, so the PDPs didn't influence hardware that much and they weren't home > computers. But software is equally important, and I don't even care to > estimate the percentage of running systems written in C. Unix and C are better left as show topics at Software Development Expo. The PDP systems are great machines but I'd rather stick with the micro-computer craze as the focus for the first show. This is not to say that the classic mini's will not be highlighted. I plan on definitely having them as part of the exhibit...maybe even a mainframe if I can get a donor. Perhaps at the 2nd show we will focus on the 50s-60s era mini's and mainframes. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 29 23:55:51 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: Non-micro classics In-Reply-To: <199704291313.AA25824@bs014.swec.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > It's probably fair to say the the minicomputer actually made more > of an impact in society than the micro has. It was the minicomputer > which was first affordable to smaller companies and operations; the > mini was also the first class of machine available to schools of > modest means. You'll find that almost every microcomputer designer > was, at some point in time, touched by a mini, and sometimes their > designs reflect that. <...> Good points. I think I want the emphasis of the first show to be on the late 70's micro-computer boom. Mini's and mainframes will be a sub-focus. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Apr 30 00:06:08 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > > Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of > > mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal > > to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. > > Care to? > > Well, I think the point the mini's made was fundamental to the micros > history. Coming from the 60's (oops) I remember the ?joy? of realizing > that you didn't need a powerplant and a huge room of boxes with spinning > tape drives chilled to just above freezing to have a computer 8-) > That is what the minis did, for me and businesses. There were > technological advances sure, but if you wheren't IN the know, very few > people know the processor was that desk over there and not all that > *other* stuff. Once seeing a PDP-8, it kind of hit home that, Yes you > could pack all the power of a room full of stuff into one half hieght > 19" rack with a mini and a tape reader with one ASR-33. It changed the > way people *viewed* the computer. Well, even though I am proposing a micro as the Computer of the Show, it does not mean that this is to the exclusion of all other systems. Definitely the PDP will be featured (if we can get one at the show) and will enjoy a billing equal to the other systems. Your next point is compelling though... > > Good suggestions. But for the first year, recognizable names from the > > annals of computer history would go a longer way towards gaining support > > from sponsors and such. This is in my opinion. Anyone care to offer a > > challenge to this? > > I don't know Sam, (as I stated before 8-) maybe if you specialized you > could get support from those involved. I mean Cray is loosing market > share but might fork over some bucks/equipment/mock-ups if you said - > "Look, we want to feature Cray as founding father who help make desktop > computers a reality. Without his foresight, we could not have gotten > where we are today." Gee, advertizing! And then find out who he had a > running battle with and ask them too! Explain how the *battle* improved > the world for everyone. Nobody was right - nobody was wrong. It's just > how things went. This would be attractive to Cray. But isn't Cray gone now? Anyhow, if we tell the plight of one manufacturer, other manufacturer's will get a black eye that we didn't choose THEIR system and will hold a grudge against the show for ever more. I don't think you can win unless you highlight ALL the systems and have ample history on ALL the players in the computer industry. So this is what I plan on doing, except I still want to showcase a micro as the show highlight because: 1) I grew up on them and 2) they brought computers into the hands of the masses. Mini's made them accessible to businesses, etc. But micro's made computing power accessible to just about anyone. They would be the systems that people would most readily identify with. I think as long as we have a mix of all the different platforms, it will be a show for all. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Apr 30 00:13:13 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: ethernet and apple2GS In-Reply-To: <199704292201.QAA14709@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Jim wrote: > My idea is this: build an ethernet board for the apple2 series with the > following parameters: 1. it looks to the system exactly like a localtalk > board, only faster. 2. it has enough brains to analyze outgoing frames to > see if, in fact, what is being sent is ip encapsulated in appletalk. If so, > de-encapsulate it and transmit it as straight IP. - this is a software issue, > really, but it needs to happen in the firmware of the ethernet board, so... > 3. It has enough brains to analyze incoming frames and determine if in > fact the frame is an IP frame. If so, encapsulate it in appletalk and > feed it to the system. > 4. It has a way of turning all this brainpower off and being driven with a > normal ethernet driver running on the host system. > 5. It can do any translation between appletalk and ethertalk so the machine > can talk to it's Macintosh kin. This would be a cool idea. And actually, there is this dude who posts on the usenet named Andre Fachat who wrote a simple TCP/IP implementation for the 6502. Perhaps you could talk to him about fleshing it out and perhaps designing a hardware card to host it? Look in comp.apple.programmer to find him. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed Apr 30 00:44:41 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: Replies to stuff... References: <199704290702.AAA01154@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3366DC4A.4141@goldrush.com> From: hellige To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Atari prob, etc. > One thing about Atari 8bit stuff is a lot of it tended to use it's own > power rating on the power supply, and not really interchangeable > between most of it, it seems. I'll check the ratings on the 1200 xl in the FAQ maybe that was the problem... :/ --------- From: Sam Ismail Subject: yo >First Annual Classic Computer Collector Conference >Why? BECAUSE! Does any hacker need a reason (well maybe the tried and true, "Because they say it's impossible.") > Next question... > Where? > Livermore, California (tentative...actual venue TBD) I could handle that. Hey that's were alot of the companies started. > When? > Late Summer 1997 (possibly August) > Who? > Organizer: Sam Ismail > Sponsors: Pending (targeted sponsors will be > Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories and > other computer manufacturers in the local area > and Silicon Valley). Apple could use a little more good P.R... (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) > What? > The Classic Computer Collector Convention is > slated to be the premier computer faire to > attend to meet with fellow classic computer > collector geeks, buy/sell/trade classic computer > stuff, exchange classic computer software and > classic computer hints and tips, attend > workshops on classic computer preservation and > restoration, and of course see classic > computers. > Some show features: > Classic Computer Spotlight - every year a > legendary system is chosen to be heralded as the > classic computer of the year (nominees for the > first show are Altair 8800; Apple ][; Commodore > PET; ???). Hey how about a demo contest too? Have you ever seen those european groups' parties, (search the web there are some good pages about them) looks pretty cool to me. Kinda like a hackerfest. > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > individual from the annals of computer lore will > be chosen as the Classic Computer Pioneer of the > year. This would be someone who had a lasting > legacy or made a historical impact on the > computer industry, but is not necessarily active > anymore (ie. this precludes Bill Gates from > qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? As I said Apple could use the P.R. (maybe get the Steves...) Unfortunately Gary Kildall (creator of CP/M) died a couple years back (but would be a kick to honor him), Chuck Peddle was the creator of the 6502 microprocessor and Commodore PET among other things. > Classic Computer Museum - A classic museum will > be set-up on-site to allow interested public to > see what classic computers are all about. > Attendees will be encouraged to submit their > favorite classics for display during the show. Better have tight security there if we bring our 'babies' to sow off. > The success of the show will depend on > attendance. Admission will be enough to cover > the costs of running the show (including lease > of the venue, advertising, etc). Although there > won't be much of a vending atmosphere (unless > people want to haul their stuff from all over > the country) space will be sold for such > purposes. That sounds reasonable. > More details as I come up with them. I would > really appreciate feedback from the patrons of > this discussion group. Any ideas, comments, > suggestions are welcome (please suggest a better > name!) The only computer show I attended was the World of Commodore in San Francisco in 1987, since then most of the shows have been feeding frenzies for developers and not at all interested in the computer classics. I would attend and I'm sure I could get others in the area interested. ---------- From: Doug Spence Subject: Re: Old Computer Books (was Re: Pets & Silly Game) > ...But the only PET books this library has are things like > collections of type-in programs for the PET, and books on using the PET in > an educational environment. Nothing good and technical. The technical ones are some of the hardest to locate, some of mine came from a Commodore Group weeding out their library, I bought them via mail. The most PET books I've come across are old college and school textbooks (anyone see "Hands-On BASIC with the Commodore PET?" yuk.) --- Subject: BBSes on old hardware and SuperVIC > (re: VIC-20) I'd put at least 32K in it, with a memory > protection toggle on the RAM so that it could run images of cartridges > from disk. There is a file I think on funet.fi's FTP that describes and internal mod that does just that. :) --- Subject: PETs etc. > If only I could find such things. I suspect that if I took a trip to > Toronto I'd have much better luck in all of my searches for old computer > hardware, software, and books, but the chances of finding PET stuff in > particular would go up a hundred fold. (What with TPUG, the Toronto PET > Users Group, etc.) True, that was a very good Commodore region. > I have a feeling that computer ownership wasn't nearly as common in > Montreal in the early days as it was in most other major North American > cities... I would believe that, I think it depnds on what stores, groups were in the area as well as what computers were first brought in. (Keeping up with the Jones') > (re-piggybacking chips) > Uh... was he looking for data redundancy or something? ;) No he had some dead RAMS and got tired of swapping chips, and figured if he piggybacked two he would at least get one good one out of it. :/ > I intend to write the software on my own, but fast serial routines might > come in handy. I want to at least get 2400bps out of the thing. Most of the BASIC boards I have is up to 1200 baud, I know for 2400 you probably have to tweak the timing registers, cause the computer does not provide decent numbers. > I don't think that'll be a problem for the VIC-20, as it's faster at I/O than the > 64. I'll probably have to put in a lot of RAM, though, to act as buffers > for the slow disk drives. :) There have been a bunch of articles for adding 256k to 1 meg internally to the 64 and bank-switching, not sure if that's possible on the VIC though, they may be adaptable. > Do you mean the music teacher's programs, or the Cursor tapes? :) YES! YES! > I think I have copies of tapes #1 to #8, plus a couple of games from later tapes. > I wish I had the originals... but these were copies made from the high > school music teacher's subscription. :) Mine are also from High School and I can say I have programs from 13 to into the 20s I think. No originals here either *sniff* > Ouranos! is an awesome game, BTW. I had the PET print up the listing and I > intended to port it to the Amiga, but I never got around to it. I don't > think it'd be the same, though, on anything but another PET with glaring > white screen. Weather War II for the Commodore-64 is a re-write of Ouranos! nifty little character graphic castles, SID sound, sprites were used to add some foliage (just for looks) > What's the serial number on that machine? Gotta go to storage and read it... Not in the 'original documentation' envelope. > I have a feeling it's a lot older than this PET. Both of my PETs have quite > ordinary-looking ROMs. > (The one with the mini keyboard has the 1.0 BASIC ROMs, with the '*** > COMMODORE BASIC ***' message and the other one has upgrade ROMs.) My 'calculator keyboard' PET has 1.0 too. I have the schematics and diagnostics for it too... Has been modified with a reset switch has ability to use a skyles add-on keyboard (you have to load and run a program first), and of course, expandamem. > Um... hold it... how are the 4116's arranged? You probably said, but of > course I can't go back into my mailbox to read that while I'm replying to > this one (I knew there was a reason I should my system to do this > locally!). If they're 16K by 4, then that certainly WOULD be more than > 8K. :) I think those are only 8kx1. I did look at my expandamem board and the chips with the plates on them had (c)Mostek written. > (RE: Visible Memory Board deveoped for KIM-1 first.) > Wow, that's incredible. Not only did I not think that PETs that old could > do high-res graphics in any way, but to learn that one could do so on the > KIM-1! I'm flabberghasted. ;) > The KIM is something I'd really like to find somewhere. So would I. > I have this terrible fear, though, of coming across one in some electronic surplus > shop and not recognizing it. :) I had nightmares about coming across an incredible Commodore stash in some store and not having any money. *gasp!* > (re: MTU visible memory ad) > BTW, I'd love a copy of that ad. Send it to: > Doug Spence > 85 Devon Road > Baie d'Urfe, Que. > H9X 2X3 > CANADA Heck I'll toss in some disks full of other goodies too. But don't hold your breath I tend to froget doing things (like mailing stuff) for a spell. ---------- From: "Mr. Self Destruct" Subject: Re: weekend additions > The plus/4 could run *some* very simple basic programs from 64/vic-20 land > but even that was a chore if I remember correctly because of the different > ways the computers "tokenized" basic. I think the main difference was between the 128 and the Plus/4s extended BASIC, but was compatible with the 64. > There was also a "parallel" drive for this > computer (well I think there was) called an SFX-1??? something or other. The parallel one was the 1551; the SFX 1001 was a 1 meg floppy drive the the PET using an IEEE-488 interface (esentally an 8250 with only one disk drive.) ---------- From: "Mr. Self Destruct" Subject: Funky looking mouse and other TCF stuff... >1 CBM 8032 $5 > (this things got some kind of memory board that plugs into the CPU > socket and a parallel interface) Wait a minute here, are you sure it's not a RS-232 interface? It could be an 8032 upgraded to a SuperPET. If it is a SuperPET there would be a 6809 processor as well as the 6502 in there and you have 96k of RAM accessible (via bank switching). Keyboard my have some odd characters on it too (to support the languages it could run such as APL, Fortran, COBOL, etc.) Of course to run the languages you would need the disks and a drive. (I don't have them) Otherwise the daughterboard could be memory to bring it up to 96k (via bank switching) or as I mentioned a visible memory board - the indication for it is that the monitor will plug into the daughter board and then the daughterboard plugs into the motherboard's video output connector. - :) BTW REALLY GOOD PRICE! Larry Anderson P.S. I think I'm gonna start writing a FAQ about the Commodore PET. Will let you guys now when I get it on-line. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 29 20:12:52 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <199704291509.AA22117@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > Ok, so the PDPs didn't influence hardware that much and they weren't home > > computers. > > The 68000 series was based on the PDP-11 design. Not much influence? I learn something new every day. :-) I don't know much about the internals of the 68k and I know even less about the PDP-11, so I'll take your word for it! No matter what, of course, the PDPs and the rest of the pre-microprocessor computers DID of course influence computing and they deserve to be at least as famous as their more recent counterparts like the Altair and company. Of course the press and mainstream folk (oops, there we go again) seem blissfully unaware of computing as it was before the invention of the microchip, but we can still remember. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 29 20:45:12 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: Atari prob, etc. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970429204724.008eb34c@mail.comland.com > Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > That's a shocker for me. I think I need to learn a little more about > electronics, and if you tear yours apart, I would love to have a copy of the > schematics. It might be a good learners project for me, and useful as well. Mind you, sometimes you can hack something together without paying any money. I have an MC-10 which I got sans PSU. I couldn't find anything like it anywhere (8V AC, 1.5A). In the end I hacked an existing DC transformer by bypassing its rectifier. One of the settings provided exactly the power rating of the MC-10 (well, almost -- it gave around 0.9 to 1A). The MC-10 worked fine, albeit a few months after getting it (couldn't risk burning the thingy). I wouldn't recommend doing this if you don't know what could go wrong, though. You may fry a perfectly good old computer by mistake. Believe me, I've done it and I didn't like it *AT ALL*. Now I'm really careful of power supplies and proper insulation, polarity and ratings for everything. It pays. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 30 09:42:06 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > The PDP systems are great machines but I'd rather stick with the > micro-computer craze as the focus for the first show. This is not to say > that the classic mini's will not be highlighted. I plan on definitely > having them as part of the exhibit...maybe even a mainframe if I can get > a donor. Perhaps at the 2nd show we will focus on the 50s-60s era mini's > and mainframes. Well, there is the collection of three mainframes up in Portland, I don't have the URL handy. Problem is, those things are at best semi-portable, i.e. it takes a big damn truck. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From danjo at xnet.com Wed Apr 30 09:23:00 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > > > Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of [Snippy] > > *other* stuff. Once seeing a PDP-8, it kind of hit home that, Yes you > > could pack all the power of a room full of stuff into one half height [Snippy] > Well, even though I am proposing a micro as the Computer of the Show, it > does not mean that this is to the exclusion of all other systems. > Definitely the PDP will be featured (if we can get one at the show) and > will enjoy a billing equal to the other systems. Your next point is > compelling though... Gee, Sam, I thought ALL my points were compelling 8-) > > > Good suggestions. But for the first year, recognizable names from > > > the annals of computer history would go a longer way towards gaining [Snippitty] > > running battle with and ask them too! Explain how the *battle* > > improved the world for everyone. Nobody was right - nobody was wrong. > > It's just how things went. > > This would be attractive to Cray. But isn't Cray gone now? Are they? Was that recent? Who is supporting the hardware/software now? Gee, isn't MITS gone? Isn't Commodore gone? Isn't the Home Computer Products Division at TI gone? I don't know about MITS but Rockwell might like some words since they still(?) source 65XX products, and TI wouldn't mind some interest. Motorola did/do the 6800/68000. > Anyhow, if we tell the plight of one manufacturer, other manufacturer's > will get a black eye that we didn't choose THEIR system and will hold a > grudge against the show for ever more. I don't think you can win unless > you highlight ALL the systems and have ample history on ALL the players > in the computer industry. You'll still miss SOMEBODY 8-) There's no way around it if you plan on keeping the show to any KNOWN display area (you don't have a Tardis do you?) > So this is what I plan on doing, except I still want to showcase a micro > as the show highlight because: > 1) I grew up on them and Well, my kids grew up on Minis. There was just no other place to put them, the kids I mean 8-) Used a PDP 11/23 as a changing table 8-) > 2) they brought computers into the hands of the masses. What! This is a good thing? 8-) > Mini's made them accessible to businesses, etc. But micro's made > computing power accessible to just about anyone. They would be the > systems that people would most readily identify with. I think as long > as we have a mix of all the different platforms, it will be a show for > all. Kidding aside, have you thought about the layout of the show? Are you going to try a "Trip Throught Time" style (linear) with the oldest up front and then walk thru to the present? Are you going to try a *cross* with seperate arms Minis down one way 65/68 stuff down another and Intel down the long one and the *selected* machine at the top? Or aren't you thinking that far ahead yet? BC From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 30 09:48:56 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > This would be attractive to Cray. But isn't Cray gone now? Anyhow, if I recall that Seymour Cray left Cray Computers back in the eighties. > we tell the plight of one manufacturer, other manufacturer's will get a > black eye that we didn't choose THEIR system and will hold a grudge > against the show for ever more. I don't think you can win unless you > highlight ALL the systems and have ample history on ALL the players in > the computer industry. So this is what I plan on doing, except I still Well, the safest way to avoid such jealousy is to showcase a system from a long-defunct company (not merely one that was acquired by another company that's still viable), preferably one whose founders have since died. What's the status of the principals of Altair, Imsai and SWTPC? (Especially the last -- I prefer Motorola to Intel). -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From scott at saskatoon.com Wed Apr 30 10:07:08 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <199704301504.JAA03729@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Altair, Imsai and SWTPC? (Especially the last -- I > prefer Motorola to Intel). OOPS! I have a Motorola-based Altair... (Altair 680) Maybe we can feature it? (Just kidding, but I thought I should point out your slight error.) ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca CANADA email: walde@dlcwest.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Apr 30 10:08:58 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > Well, there is the collection of three mainframes up in Portland, I > don't have the URL handy. Problem is, those things are at best > semi-portable, i.e. it takes a big damn truck. http://www.teleport.com/~prp I know the person who owns this collection, and they aren't likely to move again no matter how large the truck is! B^} (and there are more than three...) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Wed Apr 30 10:01:55 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704301501.KAA17184@fudge.uchicago.edu> Brett said, > > This would be attractive to Cray. But isn't Cray gone now? > > Are they? Was that recent? Who is supporting the hardware/software now? A year or so ago, I think. Silicon Graphics bought the company. eric From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 30 10:22:52 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <199704301504.JAA03729@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > Altair, Imsai and SWTPC? (Especially the last -- I > > prefer Motorola to Intel). > > OOPS! I have a Motorola-based Altair... (Altair 680) > Maybe we can feature it? (Just kidding, but I thought > I should point out your slight error.) I recall the ads, now that you mention it -- don't recall ever seeing one in person. How much are you asking? (Although the SWTPC bus was considerably superior to the Altair bus -- life is too short to hold humble opinions.) -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From danjo at xnet.com Wed Apr 30 10:30:25 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > > Altair, Imsai and SWTPC? (Especially the last -- I > > > prefer Motorola to Intel). > > > > OOPS! I have a Motorola-based Altair... (Altair 680) > > Maybe we can feature it? (Just kidding, but I thought > > I should point out your slight error.) > > I recall the ads, now that you mention it -- don't recall ever seeing > one in person. How much are you asking? (Although the SWTPC bus was > considerably superior to the Altair bus -- life is too short to hold > humble opinions.) I have the ad! It's a reprint I got with something from them way back. Christmas of 76? Have to dig it up. Got Santa sitting with one. I thought it was funny that the price matched the model number 8-) Would it be a copyright infringement if I scanned it and put it on a Web Page????? BC From danjo at xnet.com Wed Apr 30 10:34:06 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <199704301501.KAA17184@fudge.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Eric Fischer wrote: > Brett said, > > > This would be attractive to Cray. But isn't Cray gone now? > > > > Are they? Was that recent? Who is supporting the hardware/software now? > > A year or so ago, I think. Silicon Graphics bought the company. That will teach me to stick my head into these damn PeeCees! I must of missed a LOT of stuff. I just wish it wasn't always an obituary that brought me back to my senses 8-( BC From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 30 10:41:55 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > I have the ad! It's a reprint I got with something from them way back. > Christmas of 76? Have to dig it up. Got Santa sitting with one. I thought > it was funny that the price matched the model number 8-) > Would it be a copyright infringement if I scanned it and put it on a > Web Page????? I doubt anyone would get too soggy and hard to light. Who _does_ own the MITS copyrights and patents now? (Though I think all of the patents have expired, copyrights now extend unto at _least_ the third generation.) -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From danjo at xnet.com Wed Apr 30 10:43:43 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: Replies to stuff... In-Reply-To: <3366DC4A.4141@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > From: hellige > To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu [Major Snipage] > > (RE: Visible Memory Board deveoped for KIM-1 first.) > > Wow, that's incredible. Not only did I not think that PETs that old could > > do high-res graphics in any way, but to learn that one could do so on > > the KIM-1! I'm flabberghasted. ;) > > The KIM is something I'd really like to find somewhere. > So would I. Gee, as more and more of you guys mention this I start thinking of insurance for mine 8-) There was (and maybe still is) a guy on the east coast (U.S.) I think called - Hudson Software(?) - that sold disk interfaces and languages for the KIM! I will go looking in my *stacks* 8-) > > I have this terrible fear, though, of coming across one in some > > electronic surplus shop and not recognizing it. :) > I had nightmares about coming across an incredible Commodore stash in > some store and not having any money. *gasp!* Maybe you should invest NOW in a nice Uzi 8-) With that you can arrange for payment at a later date 8-) [More Snip] > P.S. I think I'm gonna start writing a FAQ about the Commodore PET. > Will let you guys now when I get it on-line. DO IT! BC From danjo at xnet.com Wed Apr 30 10:49:05 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: Atari prob, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > > That's a shocker for me. I think I need to learn a little more about > > electronics, and if you tear yours apart, I would love to have a copy of the > > schematics. It might be a good learners project for me, and useful as well. > > Mind you, sometimes you can hack something together without paying any > money. I have an MC-10 which I got sans PSU. I couldn't find anything like > it anywhere (8V AC, 1.5A). In the end I hacked an existing DC transformer by > bypassing its rectifier. One of the settings provided exactly the power > rating of the MC-10 (well, almost -- it gave around 0.9 to 1A). The MC-10 > worked fine, albeit a few months after getting it (couldn't risk burning the > thingy). > > I wouldn't recommend doing this if you don't know what could go wrong, > though. You may fry a perfectly good old computer by mistake. Believe me, > I've done it and I didn't like it *AT ALL*. Now I'm really careful of power > supplies and proper insulation, polarity and ratings for everything. It > pays. I thought there was a way to put a bridge rectifier (or something REAL close) on a DC power supply that would let you plug it into a DC load and the polarity wouldn't matter. That and a lab power supply with voltage and amp meters would pretty well remove all possiblity of damage to board. (Well, most of the porbablity anyway) BC From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Wed Apr 30 11:43:52 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: Funky looking mouse and other TCF stuff... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 Apr 1997 23:55:44 EDT." Message-ID: <199704301643.LAA25987@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> From: "Mr. Self Destruct" : >1 Funky Mouse *FREE* > >This last thing I need help with. It looks to be about 20+ years old but >I could be wrong... It is bright red, almost perfectly round, has a steel >ball as the roller, 3 black switches, and says "5271" and then "DEPRAZ - >MOUSE" on the bottom. It has what looks likea standard serial cable. The >guy said it was for a terminal right before he threw it out. Any ideas? >More importantly.... do you think I could use it on my PeeCEE? 8) That mouse sounds familiar. I seem to remember a mouse like that which was used with the AT&T 5620 terminal. As to using it on a PC, I'd doubt it, but you'd want to get some technical detail to be sure. Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From william at ans.net Wed Apr 30 12:15:23 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704301715.AB08123@interlock.ans.net> > Well, there is the collection of three mainframes up in Portland, I > don't have the URL handy. Problem is, those things are at best > semi-portable, i.e. it takes a big damn truck. Mainframes might be a bit too much to take around to shows, unfortunately. I think the artifacts would be in too much danger of being damaged. Minis are a different story. I think a deracked PDP-8/e or PDP-11/20, with a teleprinter, would be very reasonable. William Donzelli william@ans.net From kevan at motiv.co.uk Wed Apr 30 12:47:00 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: Funky looking mouse and other TCF stuff... In-Reply-To: <199704301643.LAA25987@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Message-ID: <199704301747.SAA19080@cream.motiv.co.uk> In message <199704301643.LAA25987@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu>you write: > > That mouse sounds familiar. I seem to remember a mouse like that > which was used with the AT&T 5620 terminal. > It sounds familiar to me also, as I have one for my Whitechapel workstation, although it isn't red but is just beige. I have heard them referred to as "Swiss Mice" - don't know why. Kevan From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Apr 30 18:56:12 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: Funky looking mouse and other TCF stuff... In-Reply-To: <199704301747.SAA19080@cream.motiv.co.uk>; from "Kevan Heydon" at Apr 30, 97 6:47 pm Message-ID: <199704301756.15686@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > In message <199704301643.LAA25987@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu>you write: > > > > That mouse sounds familiar. I seem to remember a mouse like that > > which was used with the AT&T 5620 terminal. > > > > It sounds familiar to me also, as I have one for my Whitechapel > workstation, although it isn't red but is just beige. I have heard them > referred to as "Swiss Mice" - don't know why. I knew the name sounded familiar, now I know why. It's in the Whitechapel Milliard Gargantubrain (that's what the MG in MG1 stands for, apparently) technical manual. If it's the same mouse, it's a pretty dumb unit, and outputs the 4 quadrature signals (2 for X, 2 for Y) on separate pins. It's a bit like an atari ST/amiga/PC bus mouse. Of course there may have been versions with built-in electronics to make them PC serial mice... > Kevan -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ronaldm at mars.ark.com Wed Apr 30 13:20:53 1997 From: ronaldm at mars.ark.com (Ron Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) Message-ID: <199704301938.MAA14871@mars.ark.com> I have an Apple II Plus, with 4 (count 'em) 4, 128k disk drives, all operational. It also has a 256k RAM card, an 80 col card, and a Super Serial card along with a Microsoft Z80 CP/M card. I don't use it very much these days, except for a bit of record keeping on my video tape collection. Just out of sheer perversity, I'm using Appleworks, which loads itself into the RAM card and seems to operate from there. Also have something called the DAVEX shell, which provides a front end for a number of activities including running Appleworks. Once you get the keys figured out, it works not half bad for my occasional record keeping. It's like most of the stuff I have around here. It came with a literal ton of software, most of which I haven't even taken the time to check out yet. Also has a voice recognition card, and an EPROM burner which are sadly stored away in my lockup. One of these days. So many computers, so little time! -Ron Mitchell ---------- > From: Tim Shoppa > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) > Date: Saturday, April 26, 1997 12:52 PM > > > > I just swapped a bare II/E for a Bare II. Going price for a bare IIE is about > > > $20 on the Apple newsgroups. Apple II's don't seem to be valued very much in > > > the Apple II newsgroup or for sale group. Tim. (Balance of message snipped) From scott at saskatoon.com Wed Apr 30 21:56:31 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <199705010253.UAA00471@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > > OOPS! I have a Motorola-based Altair... (Altair 680) > I recall the ads, now that you mention it -- don't recall ever seeing > one in person. How much are you asking? (Although the SWTPC bus was It's not for sale ;-) If you want to see it, I just put up a .jpg on my website. (No nice link to it yet though...) http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca/pics/altair680.jpg And for anyone's curiosity, one corner of my basement can be seen at: http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca/pics/basement.jpg (How many machines can you identify on this picture?) > considerably superior to the Altair bus -- life is too short to hold > humble opinions.) As far as I can tell, the 680 really didn't have much of a bus at all. (We are talking about an expansion bus, aren't we? Not the mandatory data & address busses.) There are no slots inside. The 680 is considerable smaller than the 8800s. ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca CANADA email: walde@dlcwest.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From dastar at crl.com Wed Apr 30 22:04:57 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <199704301504.JAA03729@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Altair, Imsai and SWTPC? (Especially the last -- I > > prefer Motorola to Intel). > > OOPS! I have a Motorola-based Altair... (Altair 680) > Maybe we can feature it? (Just kidding, but I thought > I should point out your slight error.) Bring it out! We'll put it on display. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Apr 30 22:06:53 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > I have the ad! It's a reprint I got with something from them way back. > Christmas of 76? Have to dig it up. Got Santa sitting with one. I thought > it was funny that the price matched the model number 8-) > Would it be a copyright infringement if I scanned it and put it on a > Web Page????? Let's put it this way...if you get sued, I promise to pay for your defense. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Apr 30 22:02:02 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > > This would be attractive to Cray. But isn't Cray gone now? > > Are they? Was that recent? Who is supporting the hardware/software now? I believe they folded and were swallowed up by some other company. Someone correct me here. > > Mini's made them accessible to businesses, etc. But micro's made > > computing power accessible to just about anyone. They would be the > > systems that people would most readily identify with. I think as long > > as we have a mix of all the different platforms, it will be a show for > > all. > > Kidding aside, have you thought about the layout of the show? Are you > going to try a "Trip Throught Time" style (linear) with the oldest up > front and then walk thru to the present? Are you going to try a *cross* > with seperate arms Minis down one way 65/68 stuff down another and Intel > down the long one and the *selected* machine at the top? Or aren't you > thinking that far ahead yet? I haven't started on the actual planning yet. I plan on sitting down and planning it in a month or so. First I have a wedding to deal with :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Apr 30 22:12:40 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: <199704301938.MAA14871@mars.ark.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Ron Mitchell wrote: > I have an Apple II Plus, with 4 (count 'em) 4, 128k disk drives, all > operational. It also has a 256k RAM card, an 80 col card, and a Super > Just out of sheer perversity, I'm using Appleworks, which loads itself into A ][+ running AppleWorks? You're a sadist. > Also has a voice recognition card, and an EPROM burner which are sadly > stored away in my lockup. One of these days. What kind of voice recog. card do you have? I have one as well but I can't recall off-hand who the manufacturer is. I'll go pull mine out and check, but I'd be interested in know who made yours as they were not the most common card for the apple, for sure. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From danjo at xnet.com Wed Apr 30 22:56:05 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > > Kidding aside, have you thought about the layout of the show? Are you > > going to try a "Trip Throught Time" style (linear) with the oldest up > > front and then walk thru to the present? Are you going to try a *cross* > > with seperate arms Minis down one way 65/68 stuff down another and Intel > > down the long one and the *selected* machine at the top? Or aren't you > > thinking that far ahead yet? > > I haven't started on the actual planning yet. I plan on sitting down and > planning it in a month or so. First I have a wedding to deal with :) Now - I wonder WHO'S getting married 8-) Just remember, it's not like collecting computers. You can't sell them off, but you might find someone else who will take them 8-) They talk back AND spend all your money - Nope - NOTHING like computers. 8-) BC From danjo at xnet.com Wed Apr 30 22:57:46 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > > I have the ad! It's a reprint I got with something from them way back. > > Christmas of 76? Have to dig it up. Got Santa sitting with one. I thought > > it was funny that the price matched the model number 8-) > > Would it be a copyright infringement if I scanned it and put it on a > > Web Page????? > > Let's put it this way...if you get sued, I promise to pay for your defense. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > I am leaving this intact in my PERMANENT storage file - just in case. I THINK you know what I mean Sam. BC (Scan to come later) From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Apr 30 22:59:44 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970430205944.00d8d7d8@agora.rdrop.com> At 11:41 AM 4/30/97 -0400, you wrote: > >I doubt anyone would get too soggy and hard to light. Who _does_ own the >MITS copyrights and patents now? (Though I think all of the patents have >expired, copyrights now extend unto at _least_ the third generation.) Well... First MITS was acquired by Pertec, who proceeded to run the whole computer line straight into the ground. Later, Pertec was bought by Triumph-Adler in Germany. I've wanted to run a few similar questions by them, but have found no easy means of communication so far... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From scott at saskatoon.com Wed Apr 30 23:02:33 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: Contest Message-ID: <199705010359.VAA09570@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> In case you missed it, my basement can be viewed at: http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca/pics/basement.jpg or if you have a crappy old browser that doesn't send "Host:" in the request: http://www.cprompt.sk.ca/scott/pics/basement.jpg I can identify 20 machines (18 unique) in this picture. (Some are in boxes, and of course, I have the high-resolution version by walking around the corner and down the stairs... but anyway...) How many can you identify? For bonus marks if you can identify any peripherals. Email your answers to me at: scott@saskatoon.com ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca CANADA email: walde@dlcwest.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From jeffh at eleventh.com Wed Apr 30 12:32:19 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 02-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >> This was actually the first machine produced with the name >> TANDY instead of TRS-80. The Model 2000 was the last of >> the TRS-80 line. >No. The Tandy 2000 never had a TRS-80 logo. The 4D was the last >TRS-80 much later on. All of the MS-DOS machines were Tandy, not >TRS-80. Ward, The Model 2000 did carry the TRS-80 logo. The black/silver badge on the front of the machine, which was rotatable in case you put the 2000 upright on it's nifty floor stand, said 'Tandy' on the first line, in a black band, 'TRS-80' on the second in a silver band, and 'Model 2000 Personal Computer' in the third on another black band. This is clearly shown on the front of the 'Tandy Service Manual: Tandy Model 2000 Personal Computer'. I owned one of these machines for a number of years, but sold it when I got caught in the clone upgrade mania. Now I'm working on purchasing another. Also, I aquired an Atari XE System today, with the optional keyboard, along with two 1050 disk drives. Cute little machine, and includes the light gun. Anyone in need of a 1050 disk drive for an Atari 8bit? I don't need both, and don't have a PSU to test either out with. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From william at ans.net Tue Apr 1 11:52:29 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970331231607.006d3890@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <199704011752.AA23897@interlock.ans.net> > Electrolytic Capacitors: They dry out, or will start to ooze the > electrolyte. (I address this to some extent on the 'Repair Tips & Tricks' > section on my web pages) Average lifetime (of large caps such as found in > power supplies) is probably 5-10 years. On machines that I restore they > are (almost) always replaced before I do anything else. The very small > caps found on logic boards for timing and similar circuits do not seem to > be a prone to failure. I think the average lifetime may be longer for electrolytics, especially those made in the past thirty years. I have had decent luck getting 50 year old capacitors alive again - but only if they are treated right. The best way to keep them happy is to reform them, treat them gently, and use them. Most of the following probably is better suited to guys with minis, as often they have not been powered for 10 years and stored in a damp warehouse... Always disconnect the power supply(s) and check them out first! For non-switching supplies, disconnect the output (no load condition) and use a variac (variable transformer) on the input. Slowly ramp up the variac, starting from 0. For really old electronics, I do this over a 30 minutes, but that might be me being over-cautious. An ammeter on the input is also handy, in case something starts to go (moisture in transformers - but that is a different rant). For switching supplies, connect a decent load, as some units _need_ a load or they will break. Still ramp up the input voltage, but do it quickly - perhaps over just a few seconds (the supplies will complain about the low input voltage). I suppose the best thing to do is to power the capacitors out of circuit - probably too much work for electonics of this vintage. The object of all of this is to prevent the capacitors from getting whacked with full voltage from the rectifier. The longer the ramp-up on the input, the better, as it allows the electroyte in the capacitor to reform (I do not know the exact chemical reactions that take place during decay and reformation, but I could probably dig them up). Finally, the best way to keep the capacitors from decaying is to use them from time to time - just like a vintage car engine. Eventually they will wear out, but I think that would be _far_ longer than 10 or 15 years. Tantalum capacitors are pretty bulletproof, and do not need this treatment. > Card edge connectors: corrosion is common, especially is stored in damp > places or contaminated by skin oils. Can be cleaned with the classic "Pink > Pearl" eraser. (Don't use the grey erasers - too abrasive!) I would not do this, unless it is followed by a cleaning with a solvent of some sort. Erasers do leave a residue, mainly in the microscopic pits in the metal. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 1 13:19:41 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Mar 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > My other worry is storage. Magnetic tapes and disks do not last forever. > Hard disks do not last forever. How long until the last 8 incher finally > gives up the ghost and sheds all of its bits? I know that there are still > a few places which sell them, but how much longer will they be manufactured? > How long until the last MFM hard drive wears out? Amazingly, all my Apple software starting from the mid-80s is still functional. I used to pull each disk out and test for errors every now and then but I haven't done this in probably 5 years. Recently I've been playing with my Apple again and all my software seems to be still in tact, but I worry about them degrading. I hope to transfer them all to disk images on my PC (hopefully soon) so that as a side benefit I can enjoy them on my emulator. I'm amazed that the disks are still sound since I used to buy those bulk diskettes that you could get through catalogs like Computer Direct ($.19 in quantities of 50). Those weren't the best quality diskettes, or were they? I also have a Sider ][ harddrive for my Apple that was probably manufactured in 1984 or 1985 and it's still running fine (knock on everything). Imagine that...a 12 year old MFM harddrive still going strong. It used to run a BBS early on so its seen some days. > Most manuals were not printed on acid free paper, how long until they > start to turn to dust? Photocopy! > How long do cassette tapes last? Make copies! > In 50 to 100 years how many of the machines that run fine today will > not be usable because there are no disks on which to store programs or > data? I was just thinking of this the other day. I haven't booted any of my classic computers in a couple years. I'm afraid that the next time I fire one up the circuits won't be able to handle the sudden current and will fry. I was wondering if there was some way to start them off with an undercurrent for a second or so and then go to full voltage. I don't know if this is feasible or even recommended. Will this do more harm than good? > I have come across some solutions, though none of them are really > optimal: > > Use a PC with a high grade sound card to store and load cassette data to > older machines. I don't personally know if anyone has really done this. Good idea. Basically you are just sampling the cassette audio signals and storing them on your PC hard drive. > Store critical data (ROM images) on punched mylar tape. I would simply store these as a disk image on a PC as well. > Store disk images on CDROM. (How long do these last? I've heard 50 > years, can anyone confirm this?) This has the problem of moving the > data from the CD to the target machine. I don't think that my PX-8 > can understand ISO 9660 file systems. Serial communications. Read each block of data from the source data medium and transfer over the source's serial ports (if it is lucky enough to have one) to your PC. > For the near term we can backup every disk we acquire. Pull out the > old machines at least once a year and make new backups. Stockpile > anything which will wear out. Keep everything clean, out of direct > sunlight, and within a reasonable temperature range. Good idea. I would also suggest using compressed air to blow out any dust should your systems be exposed to any. I have most of my smaller classic computers wrapped in anti-static bags that I got from worked and then packed them in cardboard boxes with packing foam and taped up the boxes. Snug as a bug. > Anyone have any really good long-term solutions for the preservation > of our machines? Put them in stasis like in Star Trek. Store them in a vacuum. Clone them like sheep. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at eleventh.com Tue Apr 1 01:29:37 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 01-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >We ORIC users do exactly this -- use a PC sound card to transfer/copy those >old program tapes. Works wonderfully. You might want to take a look at the >Oric pages on http://www.ensica.fr/oric to see if any of the technology in >use there is worthwhile for your needs. I would think that all that would be needed was a standard cassette player that has both a MIC jack and a line-out jack. To make a WAV or other format recording of the data cassette, one would just plug the line out of the cassette player into the line-in on the soundcard and use your favorite recording software. You'd likely have to play with the volume to get it just right though. One would do just the opposite to create a copy of the data cassette file: plug the line-out of the soundcard up to the MIC jack on the cassette recorder. Again, it's likely one would have to play with the volume level for a bit. I used to use my home stereo system for my Timex-Sinclair's mass storage, and sometimes it got outright picky about the volume! The question then is: what sampling rate would be the best overall for this? Obviously, I don't think you'd need to use the stereo mode, but it'd be nice to keep the file size down if possible, without affecting the quality of the recording. I realize it'd be on shaky ground legally, but would any of you be interested in creating an archive of these data tape images? This would certainly ensure the programs originally provided on tape would be around much longer than the original tapes themselves. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 1 14:28:56 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, hellige wrote: > I realize it'd be on shaky ground legally, but would any of you be > interested in creating an archive of these data tape images? This would > certainly ensure the programs originally provided on tape would be around much > longer than the original tapes themselves. This debate has raged on and off for months on Apple2 newsgroups. People who are doing the copying and archiving are arguing that they are preserving classic apple2 software, while those against it say it is piracy since some of the titles are still commercially available. My view is this: if it is no longer available, and will not likely ever become available again, right or wrong, nobody is going to raise a stink about it. Simply put, it IS preservation. Worst case, just do it and don't tell anyone. Think of this. Recently, Levi's Strauss paid over $100,000 for a pair of Levi's jeans from the late 1800's. The reason they paid so much is because they were original jeans made by the company back then and were of significant historical value. Obviously, Levi's was very grateful to recover a piece of its long past history to have paid so much for a pair of old jeans. I know this case is different in significant ways from copying once copyrighted software, but I believe in 20, 50, 100 years, a lot of these companies that manufactured computers and software (should they still be around) will be delighted to know a piece of their long lost past has been preserved by enthusiastic collectors. I say do it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Apr 1 23:59:59 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: <199704011752.AA23897@interlock.ans.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19970331231607.006d3890@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970401215959.00cce370@agora.rdrop.com> At 12:52 PM 4/1/97 -0500, you wrote: >> Electrolytic Capacitors: They dry out, or will start to ooze the >> electrolyte. (I address this to some extent on the 'Repair Tips & Tricks' >> section on my web pages) Average lifetime (of large caps such as found in >> power supplies) is probably 5-10 years. On machines that I restore they >> are (almost) always replaced before I do anything else. The very small >> caps found on logic boards for timing and similar circuits do not seem to >> be a prone to failure. > >I think the average lifetime may be longer for electrolytics, especially >those made in the past thirty years. I have had decent luck getting 50 >year old capacitors alive again - but only if they are treated right. The >best way to keep them happy is to reform them, treat them gently, and use >them. True enough in many cases, but check them before proceeding... >Tantalum capacitors are pretty bulletproof, and do not need this treatment. Yep! >> Card edge connectors: corrosion is common, especially is stored in damp >> places or contaminated by skin oils. Can be cleaned with the classic "Pink >> Pearl" eraser. (Don't use the grey erasers - too abrasive!) > >I would not do this, unless it is followed by a cleaning with a solvent >of some sort. Erasers do leave a residue, mainly in the microscopic pits >in the metal. Agreed. The part I seem to have omitted that is part of my regular routine after cleaning with the eraser is to remove all residue with a soft (non-static) cloth. I've tended to avoid solvents on PC boards when possible. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From kevan at motiv.co.uk Wed Apr 2 02:39:02 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Enterprise Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704020839.JAA11661@cream.motiv.co.uk> In message you write: > This is for all of our European members. I'm interested in the Enterprise > line of computers, either the 64 or the 128. How common are these machines i > n > Europe? Would it be hard to find one? > I have found it hard to find one. I have come close on a couple of occasions but have been pipped to the post by another collector. So I would say they are quite rare. Kevan From kevan at motiv.co.uk Wed Apr 2 03:14:25 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Weekend Scavenging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704020914.KAA12367@cream.motiv.co.uk> Bill Wrote: > > It was a good weekend ;) > I will have to agree with you here. I find the spring car boot sales here in the UK tend to be very good, and the ones over this holiday weekend to be especially good. My find of the weekend was another Anita calculator that has a nixie tube display. (My dad is getting very good at spotting calculators at the bottom of a box.) It does have a few problems but more on this later. The Anita was among the dozen calculators, two Intellivisions (both with speech modules), various Atari XE & 2600 cartridges, a G7000 + a dozen carts and the first reasonably priced (3 pounds) Spectrum +2. I also picked up a couple of old Speak & Spell and a couple of Little Professors (one LCD & one LED) These last ones are educational things for my new daughter, well that's my excuse anyway. The Anita mostly works. The tubes all work, it is just the number keys produce the wrong numbers. One of the circuit boards looks like it has some water damage, and maybe some rust under the whiteish residue. What is the best way of cleaning this? -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: From classicjr at juno.com Tue Apr 1 10:04:09 1997 From: classicjr at juno.com (Jeffrey G. Rottman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Laser PC-4 References: <199704010802.AAA19566@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19970402.070110.5351.0.classicjr@juno.com> I have had a response to my request to find a Laser PC-4 Notebook computer from someone here, but they referred me to a reseller that has modified it by adding a larger screen and more memory, which is fine, except now it doesn't have software for appointments and a clock calendar, I don't believe. They call it a Laser PC-5. Does anyone know where I could find a real PC-4 as sold several years ago? I would be interested in a used one. Respond here or at : rotation@juno.com From classicjr at juno.com Wed Apr 2 02:02:04 1997 From: classicjr at juno.com (classicjr@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 11 Message-ID: <19970402.083442.5303.2.classicjr@juno.com> CLASSICCMP Digest 11 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: How long will they last? by William Donzelli 2) Re: How long will they last? by Sam Ismail 3) Re: How long will they last? by hellige I found these diggin' around other News Groups and thought of you guys - instantly 8-) >From: "Tom Jacobson" >Subject: Morrow computer >Date: 31 Mar 1997 19:20:26 GMT > >This is my thir day on the "net"...really..! >I have a Morrow MD2 (2 floppy disk system) with a lot of Morrow >newsletters, original software etc. >Yes (at last check) it did work fine. >Is anyone interested in this thing. I hate to get rid of it..was my >first system. But no use in having it around. - And - >From: ninja@asu.edu (Jay Noh) >Subject: TRS-80 Model-100 FS >Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 01:57:24 -0700 > >TRS-80 Model 100 portable forsale. >Asking $100. >Please reply via e-mail. >-- >Jay Noh (ninja@asu.edu) >ASU Dept. of CSE, 5406 >Tempe, AZ 85287-5406 BC From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Apr 2 12:26:20 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: mitsubishi MP386 help please Message-ID: <970402132618_-669429383@emout13.mail.aol.com> i recently acquired a mitsubishi MP386 machine; a proprietary late 1980s 386dx-16. i need to configure the hdd and monitor since it will not boot properly, but it doesnt have a standard cmos, and has dip switches in the front which i cant figure out even after trial and error. does anyone have information on this machine before i round file it? david (suprdave@aol.com) From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Apr 2 20:42:09 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: ; from "Bill Whitson" at Mar 31, 97 6:01 pm Message-ID: <199704021942.12089@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > I was talking to a friend this weekend who brought > up this idea that before long EPROMs in our old > computers are going to start to go bad. This is > something I've heard before but, to be honest, I > don't know enough to make a judgement on it. If > this is the case, I suppose I should be burning > backups. Don't bother with burning backups (after all, the backup will only last another 10 years), but dump the data (as a plain binary file) to a suitable archival storage medium. What I recomend is _before_ even powering up a machine is to dump all the ROMs, the PALs (an amazing number of classic computers have non-copy-protected PALS), etc to a PC-format disk. Then punch any really rare stuff onto paper tape (You may laugh, but I've _never_ found a paper tape that I can't read, and EPROM files are not that big in general). If the chips ever fail in the future, then It's easy to burn a new EPROM then. > > While I'm at it... What are some other concerns > along these lines. What should we be planning > for as these machines grow 5, 10, 15 years older? Well, there's no problem with standard electronic parts (resistors, capacitors, TTL chips, etc). I don't think you'll have any problems finding those in 15 years time. Other chips are more of a problem. AMD2900 bit-slice chips are getting hard to find, and a lot of minicomputers and their peripherals depend on them. But I'm not sure that if I buy any now they'll still be good in 10 years time. ASICs are a big problem. Basically, there's no hope if they fail. You can't copy them at home. The best thing to do is to figure out _exactly_ how they work, the timing of all the signals, etc, and to record that. If the chip fails, and you can't get one, then at least you can make a clone out of TTL or something like a Xilinx FPGA. I'd also recomend recording any information now that would be of use if the machine failed. If you know what you are doing, note down the voltages on the CRT electrodes in a monitor. The waveforms in the PLL of a disk controller, that sort of thing. Basically, annotate the service manual with details of _your_ machine. > > Bill Whitson > ClassicCmp "owner" > bcw@u.washington.edu bill@booster.u.washington.edu > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Apr 2 20:53:45 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: <199704010320.VAA23487@saucer.cc.umr.edu>; from "Starling" at Mar 31, 97 9:20 pm Message-ID: <199704021953.12422@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> [EPROMs] > I'm not an electrical engineer, but as I understand it, it's not an > actual problem with the hardware of the machine itself. It's just that > the magnetic alignment in the EPROM (erasable programmable read only Actually, it's an electrostatic charge that leaks away. The effect is much the same, though - the chip can be reprogrammed, and works fine. It just forgets the data that should be in it. But chips (_all_ chips) can and do fail. So I'd recomend backing up ROMs, PROMs (the fusible-link type used for address decoders, state machines, etc), PALs, etc. Everything. > memory) disintigrates. However if you have a backup of the chip, it can > be re-programed using an EPROM burner. > > I know that for Atari 2600 cartridges, only prototype and low-quality 3rd > party cartridges were made with EPROMs in them. I'd be surprised if any Yes, but ROMs can fail as well. You should still keep backups. > machines actually use EPROMs to store the ROM kernels, but perhaps they > do. If so, a list of affected machines should be made. Perhaps I should Classic PERQs have an EPROM on the I/O board for the Z80 code. PERQ 3a's have the bootstrap in EPROM. I've got DEC-compatable boards with EPROMs on them. I'm sure a lot of other machine have EPROMs in them - particularly the machines made in smaller quantities - which are therefore rarer, and more important to preserve. Remember that an EPROM need not be in a ceramic package with a quartz window. OTP (One Time Programmable) EPROMs are in a normal plastic package. They can't be erased by UV light (there's no way for it to reach the actual chip), but they program just like EPROMs, and they suffer from bit-rot just the same. If in doubt, back it up. > I've always wondered about the use of electrolytic capacitors in > computers. I believe that these buggers go bad after a while and need to > be replaced. Is this true? Well, it's not a real problem. I've had exactly one big electrolytic fail in _all_ my computers (and I have machines over 25 years old). That one was in a PDP11/44, and was damaged when the PSU overheated (amazingly, it was the only damage!). But capacitors are standard parts. Unless you insist on only using the original manufacturers components, it's not hard to find replacements for them. I don't worry about that at all. > > I've also always been concered about floppy disks going bad. Do they > have a definately lifespan? If so, it might be hard to find new 5.25", 8" > or 3.25" (a la Amstrad) disks on which to copy ailing files. > Yes, disks do go bad after a time, alas. The only compensation is that the older disks (particularly 8") seem to last a lot longer than the modern 3.5" ones. > chris starling > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Apr 2 21:18:14 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: <199704011752.AA23897@interlock.ans.net>; from "William Donzelli" at Apr 1, 97 12:52 (noon) Message-ID: <199704022018.13427@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I think the average lifetime may be longer for electrolytics, especially > those made in the past thirty years. I have had decent luck getting 50 > year old capacitors alive again - but only if they are treated right. The > best way to keep them happy is to reform them, treat them gently, and use > them. The other big point is that (in general) computer capacitors are standard parts. A 5000uF capacitor in a DEC PSU is replaceable by a standard 4700uF one, avaialbe from a dozen suppliers in the UK alone. OK, so it may not _look_ original, but the machine still works. [...] > Always disconnect the power supply(s) and check them out first! For > non-switching supplies, disconnect the output (no load condition) and use Absolutely. This is not to protect the PSU, but to protect the rest of the machine. An overvoltage on the 5V line can ruin _every_ chip in the machine. It's at times like those that you are glad of the ROM backups :-) Seriously, I _never_ power up a machine without first checking the PSU on a dummy load. Only once was the supply faulty (and the 5V line sat at about 8.5V), but none the less I do it. I seems sensible to make sure you're not about to ruin a piece of history. [...] > For switching supplies, connect a decent load, as some units _need_ a > load or they will break. Still ramp up the input voltage, but do it Light bulbs make good dummy loads. I was suprised that my DEC PC04 tape reader uses a 12V car bulb running off the 5V line - and it's still quite bright. I guess car headlamp bulbs would be ideal for SMPS loads. You can get 6V car bulbs in the UK, BTW, but I had to order some when I wanted them In general you only need to load the main output - the one it takes regulation from. This is likely to be a 5V output, but check the schematics to be sure. For example, the PSU in my DEC LA324 printer has a 36V main output. > quickly - perhaps over just a few seconds (the supplies will complain > about the low input voltage). I suppose the best thing to do is to power > the capacitors out of circuit - probably too much work for electonics of > this vintage. It's not necessary to run up _every_ small capacitor. It may be worth doing the big ones, particularly the mains smoothing caps in an SMPS. > Tantalum capacitors are pretty bulletproof, and do not need this treatment. Odd, I've had a couple of tants go short circuit with impressive results (pop, smoke, small flame). No other damage, though. > > > Card edge connectors: corrosion is common, especially is stored in damp > > places or contaminated by skin oils. Can be cleaned with the classic "Pink > > Pearl" eraser. (Don't use the grey erasers - too abrasive!) > > I would not do this, unless it is followed by a cleaning with a solvent > of some sort. Erasers do leave a residue, mainly in the microscopic pits > in the metal. I clean my edge connectors with propan-2-ol (available in spray cans from Electrolube). It removes most dirt, and doesn't damage the card edge. I never use abrasives near a computer... > William Donzelli -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From william at ans.net Wed Apr 2 15:49:31 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: PDP-8 boards? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970401215959.00cce370@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <199704022149.AA26129@interlock.ans.net> Can anyone enlighten me on the following? >(1) M8330 >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M1 1k prom board >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M2 1k prom board >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M3 1k prom board >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M4 1k prom board > >The prom boards have Intel 1702A eproms on them, but they are soldered in. I am pretty sure the first is one of the processor cards from a PDP-8/e, but I have no idea what the other boards are for. The 1702As, as noted, are soldered in, which makes me think that this was more than just a generic, burn-your-own-ROM card set. Also, if the M8330 is surplus to me (I think I have quite a few base 8/e card sets, save the bus load card), does anyone want it? William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Apr 2 23:00:29 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: PDP-8 boards? In-Reply-To: <199704022149.AA26129@interlock.ans.net>; from "William Donzelli" at Apr 2, 97 4:49 pm Message-ID: <199704022200.16234@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Can anyone enlighten me on the following? > > >(1) M8330 PDP8/e Clock Generator/Timing logic. Part of the CPU board set (along with M8300 and M8310, which are the data path and control in some order) as you guessed > >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M1 1k prom board > >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M2 1k prom board > >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M3 1k prom board > >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M4 1k prom board > > > >The prom boards have Intel 1702A eproms on them, but they are soldered in. They are 1K * 13 bits (!) of EPROM (7 off 1702s), + an optional 256 12 bit words of RAM. The idea is that if the 13th bit of a word is clear, then the processor sees the other 12 bits of that EPROM location. If the 13th bit is set then 8 bits of the EPROM data select one of the RAM locations, which can be read/written by the CPU. It basically gives you 1K of EPROM with the ability to have some changeable locations in the middle of it. > > I am pretty sure the first is one of the processor cards from a PDP-8/e, > but I have no idea what the other boards are for. > > The 1702As, as noted, are soldered in, which makes me think that > this was more than just a generic, burn-your-own-ROM card set. You'll notice there are _8_ edge plugs on these boards. The bottom 4 (away from the EPROMs) go into a normal Omnibus slot. The top 4 take 4 little shorting blocks that link the pins on the solder side to the pins on the component side. The pins on the component side are linked to the EPROMs, those on the solder side to the rest of the logic. To program it, you pull off the shorting blocks and link up a special programmer to the top connectors. AFAIK it was just a generic ROM board. The PDP8/e Maintenance Manual Volume 2 covers it, but doesn't AFAIK mention any versions for specific applications, like bootstraps. On the other hand, the set of 4 boards you mentioned just might contain some standard code. > William Donzelli -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 2 18:06:10 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Weekend Scavenging In-Reply-To: <199704020914.KAA12367@cream.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: > > It was a good weekend ;) > > I will have to agree with you here. I find the spring car boot sales > here in the UK tend to be very good, and the ones over this holiday > weekend to be especially good. I'll agree partially. Maybe it's Edinburgh, or maybe it's just Commodore, but so far the only machines I've managed to find are Commodores. Lots of 64s and a couple of Amiga 500s. Booooooring. Then again, I did get a couple of Commodore 16s two weeks ago. But nothing more interesting than that. I think I should try going to the sales a bit earlier. Maybe there are more crazed collectors around here. :-) --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From wbrco at valuenet.net Wed Apr 2 22:14:55 1997 From: wbrco at valuenet.net (Allen Underdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: PDP-8 boards? References: <199704022149.AA26129@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <33432EBE.445C@valuenet.net> William Donzelli wrote: > > Can anyone enlighten me on the following? > > >(1) M8330 > >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M1 1k prom board > >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M2 1k prom board > >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M3 1k prom board > >(1) M8349B K-SP-MR8FE-1 Rev F M4 1k prom board > > > >The prom boards have Intel 1702A eproms on them, but they are soldered in. > > I am pretty sure the first is one of the processor cards from a PDP-8/e, > but I have no idea what the other boards are for. > > The 1702As, as noted, are soldered in, which makes me think that > this was more than just a generic, burn-your-own-ROM card set. > > Also, if the M8330 is surplus to me (I think I have quite a few base 8/e > card sets, save the bus load card), does anyone want it? > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net Ok, a PDP-8 question. Which version used the Harris IML6100 processor? My first bench job was fixing Transaction II compatable charge card machines based on this processor. I was told that it was the PDP-8 proc, all 12 multiplexed bus bits of it. Cmos processor, no bus drivers, driving straigt into the edge card connector. Spent a lot of time cleaning edge connectors. So much that I had to "re-plate" them with the soldering iron when the copper started to show through too much. But that was a VERY long time ago! -- | Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | | Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | | homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | | Try My BBS at 314.939.9445! | From wbrco at valuenet.net Wed Apr 2 22:24:15 1997 From: wbrco at valuenet.net (Allen Underdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamvention Message-ID: <334330EF.4F23@valuenet.net> How many of the crazies that get this list will be attending? If there's enough of us, maybe we can do lunch and complain about the bland sloppy joe that's served! I know a lot of the "informal" nets meet in the lunch room, so I'm sure we could chisel out some chairs! -- | Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | | Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | | homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | | Try My BBS at 314.939.9445! | From ronaldm at mars.ark.com Thu Apr 3 11:04:37 1997 From: ronaldm at mars.ark.com (Ron Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Weekend Scavenging Message-ID: <199704031704.JAA28068@mars.ark.com> > >Yep, it was another profitable weekend scavenging mission! You were indeed busy. :) 2. Tandy Color Computer. Boasts a whopping 4k! Fixed a broken >keyboard - now all I have to do is find some software. Is this a RADIO Shack Co-Co? If so, I have software, but I don't think any of it would run in 4k. The model I have is a 64k version. > >5. HP Series 100. This one doesn't currently work. It will >probably be a project for some upcoming weekend. Anyone know >what it is? Very strange little machine... I have 2 HP150's. If your HP100 is a forerunner, it could be constructed such that the computer and monitor are in one unit. Do you have a keyboard with it? I really have no knowledge of the earlier model you have, but there is a FIDOnet echo devoted to Hewlett Packard's equipment, and I believe there were some contacts on there who know a thing or two about the older machines. -Ron Mitchell From ronaldm at mars.ark.com Thu Apr 3 11:04:40 1997 From: ronaldm at mars.ark.com (Ron Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: How long will they last? Message-ID: <199704031704.JAA28071@mars.ark.com> > >I was talking to a friend this weekend who brought >up this idea that before long EPROMs in our old >computers are going to start to go bad. According to the experts in our Coleco ADAM group, there is truth to this. Apparently computer chips generally have a tendency to fail after about 10 years. I have 4 Coleco ADAMs all roughly the same age (12 years) and I've yet to experience this problem with any of them. Unfortunately in our case 1 of the chips, the MIOC or Memory Input/Output Controller is a rarity and apparently cannot be duplicated. Most of us have been stockpiling old ADAMs in the hopes of keeping ourselves going as long as we can. (We're like Edsul owners... we refuse to give up). At any rate, I don't know of anyone in our community who has experienced the problem.... yet, but we've been warned. -Ron Mitchell From ronaldm at mars.ark.com Thu Apr 3 11:04:42 1997 From: ronaldm at mars.ark.com (Ron Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: How long will they last? Message-ID: <199704031704.JAA28074@mars.ark.com> > >How long do cassette tapes last? > I'm still getting data reliably off of Coleco Datapacks that I recorded circa 1986. But I've heard there are limitations. Don't use the tapes much any more. One person talking about this a while back claimed it was better to store casettes vertically rather than horizontally. Never paid much heed to that, so I don't know if it's true or not. -Ron Mitchell From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Apr 3 19:45:54 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Weekend Scavenging In-Reply-To: <199704031704.JAA28068@mars.ark.com>; from "Ron Mitchell" at Apr 3, 97 9:04 am Message-ID: <199704031845.4183@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I have 2 HP150's. If your HP100 is a forerunner, it could be constructed The 100 family included a lot of very different machines. From memory, the 110 was the 'portable plus' and was a laptop using an 8088 (?). The 125 was a CP/M machine, while the 150 was the touchscreen PC and ran MS-DOS. I have the Technical Manual for the HP150 (both versions) if anyone wants me to look anything up. It's quite a fine machine in many ways, but as it wasn't PC compatable (it ran MS-DOS, but didn't have PC compatable video, for example), it flopped. > -Ron Mitchell -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Apr 3 19:43:38 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: <199704031704.JAA28071@mars.ark.com>; from "Ron Mitchell" at Apr 3, 97 9:04 am Message-ID: <199704031843.4105@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> [...] > yet to experience this problem with any of them. Unfortunately in our case 1 > of the chips, the MIOC or Memory Input/Output Controller is a rarity and > apparently cannot be duplicated. Most of us have been stockpiling old ADAMs Custom chips like these are a right pain to collectors/preservationists - when (not if) they fail, you essentially have to find another machine to raid for parts, and hope that one keeps going for a significant period (it may well fail a week later if you are unlucky). I decided to seriously collect only those machinews that were built with standard parts. That means I don't really bother with home computers after about 1980 (by that point, sales were high enough to make it worthwhile for the manufacturers to use gate arrays, etc). I generally prefer PDP11's, PDP8's, PERQs, etc which are built from standard parts. I do have a lot of machines that use custom chips, but I don't depend on them, and won't spend a lot of time hacking them, modifying them, etc. If I did, all that work could be useless when the chip fails. > -Ron Mitchell -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu Apr 3 15:34:33 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: The list Message-ID: I've been scraping this together for a few months. I though some of you might have use for it. Bill Whitson ClassicCmp "owner" bcw@u.washington.edu bill@booster.u.washington.edu --- Computers Through 1988 Part 1/3 (Manufacturers A-D) This list is compiled from various sources: fliers, magazines, ads, manuals, and price books. The information is as acurate as the original sources. The dates are probably particularly unreliable as many of them are just guesses. I have excluded most PC clones from this list. A few of the more important, or interesting PC's are listed. If you have anything to add or revise, contact Bill Whitson (e-mail bill@booster.u.washington.edu). MANUFACTURER MODEL CA ------------------------------------------------------------------- Acorn Model B 82 Automated Computer Systems 4040 MC 78 8080 MC 79 Z80 MCS 81 ACE Discovery 500 83 Discovery 1600 83 Actrix Computers Actrix 83 Adra Systems Model 1000 86 Model 3000 86 Advanced Digital Corp. SuperStar 84 Alcyon Alcyon 84 Alpha Info Systems Model 100 77 Alpha MicroSystems Model 680 84 Model 1000 82 ALSPA Computer ACI-1 81 ACI-2 82 Altos Computer Systems Model 580 83 Model 680 85 Model 3068 88 Model 8000 78 Advanced Micro Devices Model 96 80 Ampere, Inc. WS1A 85 WS1B 85 APF Electronics IM1 80 Apollo Computer Model 400 82 Apple Computer, Inc. II 78 II+ 81 IIe 82 IIc 85 IIc+ 86 IIgs 86 III 83 III+ 84 Lisa 1 83 Lisa 2 84 Macintosh 128 84 Macintosh XL 84 Applied Electronics Model 10 81 Model 15 81 AT&T 3B2/300 86 3B2/400 86 Atari 400 80 600 82 800 83 800XL 84 1200XL 83 130XE 84 520ST 85 1040ST 85 Mega 2 87 Mega 4 87 Auragen Systems System 4000 84 Barreto Associates MicroMaster 83 Barrington International Elite 82 Barrister Info Systems Law Office Manager 75 Basis Model 108 80 BBN Computer Corp. C60 80 C70 81 Beehive Corp. The Topper 83 Bell Computer Systems Model 4 84 Bell and Howell Model 78400 83 Model 3016 83 Berkel Systems Model 4410 74 Billings Computer Corp. System 500 82 System 6000 82 BC12 79 BlackHawk Computers BlackHawk 3 79 BlackHawk 4 79 BMC, Inc. Model 20C 81 Model 20G 81 Bondwell Computers BW2 85 BW8 86 BW12 85 BW14 85 BW16 85 BOS Systems BOS-M 81 Cyte 86 82 BTI Computer Systems BTI 4800 84 BTI 5000 83 BTI 6000 84 BTI 8000 85 Burroughs Corp. B1800 83 B1910 83 OW400 82 CADO Systems CAT III 82 System 20 78 CCG Ultra PDP 11/23 83 Ultra PDP 11/44 83 Ultra PDP 11/73 83 Ultra 11/730 83 California Computer Systems Model 1000 82 Model 3000 83 System 200 81 System 300 81 System 400 81 Callan Data Systems CD 100 81 CD 100M 82 UniStar 100 84 UniStar 200 84 UniStar 300 84 Canaan Computer Corp. 5410 85 5412 84 Canon, Inc. TX-10/15 80 Casio, Inc. FX-9000 83 Computer Consoles, Inc. Power 5 84 Control Data Corp. Cyber 18 76 Model 110 83 Computer Enhancement Corp. CE Micro 1 83 Centurion Computer Corp. Model 100 79 Model 200 79 Model 5200 82 Model 5300 82 Model 6100 83 Model 6200 83 Model 7100 84 Model 9200 84 Micro Plus 82 Century Computer Corp. System 300 75 System 400 75 System 700 75 System 900 75 Vanguard 8000 82 Vanguard 8500 82 X1000 75 X2000 75 Challenge Systems, Inc. CS1000 82 Charles River Data Systems Universe 32/115T 85 Universe 32/137T 85 Universe 32/35 85 Universe 65/115T 85 Universe 68/05 82 Universe 68/137T 84 Universe 68/35 84 Universe 2402 85 Charter Information Corp. System 4 83 CIE Systems, Inc. 680/20 83 680/30 83 680/40 83 680/50 87 680/100 84 680/150 87 680/200 84 CMC Systems SuperSystem 1 81 SuperSystem 2 82 Codex Corporation Model 268/21 83 Model 268/24 82 Model 268/44 82 Colby Computer MacColby 128 84 MacColby 512 84 Coleco Industries, Inc. ADAM 83 Colonial Data Services SB80 81 Columbia Data Products Commander 500 79 Commander 964 79 Commander FX 79 Comark Corp. Disktor M1 83 Disktor M3 83 Disktor Q 79 Commodore 655 83 128 86 Amiga 500 87 Amiga 1000 86 Amiga 2000 87 8032 79 16 84 64 82 Executive 64 83 PET 79 SuperPET 81 VIC-20 81 Plus 4 84 Compal Computer Systems 8200+ 81 Electric Briefcase 82 EZ Type 83 CompTech EVE II 85 CompuCorp Model 745 83 Model 799 83 Compupro Systems System 816/10 84 System 816/A 82 System 816/E 84 System 816/G 84 System 816/Z 84 The Computerist Focus FLEX 82 Covergent Technologies MiniFrame 86 MiniFrame Plus 86 MightyFrame 86 Cortex Systems Microdent 1 79 Microdent 2 79 Cromemco, Inc. C10 82 CS-1 82 CS100 85 CS110 86 CS115 87 CS120 86 CS200 86 CS220 86 CS300 86 CS400 86 CS420 86 CS-2 82 CS-3 83 System 100 84 System 300 84 System 0 82 CYB Systems MultiBox I 82 MultiBox II 82 Cyberchron CDS-201 79 CDS-231 83 Data General Corp CEO 81 CB/50 83 CS/5 82 CS/10 80 CS/20 83 CS/30 83 CS/40 83 CS/50 80 CS/60 83 CS/70 80 CS/100 82 CS/200 82 Eclipse C/150 79 Eclipse C/350 78 Eclipse MV/4000 82 Eclipse S/120 83 Eclipse S/130 83 Eclipse S/140 80 Eclipse S/250 83 Eclipse S/280 83 Enterprise 1000 81 Enterprise 3000 81 MPT/80 83 MPT/100 83 Nova 3 83 Nova 4 83 Datamac Computer Systems Series 1200 81 Datapoint Corp. Model 1560 82 Model 8600 81 Model 8800 81 Series 1800 83 Series 4000 83 Series 6600 78 Datavue Corp. 80/100 81 80/200 81 80/300 81 80/400 83 3000 79 DEC Correspondent 83 Datasystem 150 83 Datasystem 208 78 Datasystem 300 83 Datasystem 315 83 Datasystem 320 83 Datasystem 336 83 Datasystem 356 83 Datasystem 512 83 Datasystem 500 83 DECMate II 82 Micro/PDP-11 82 MicroVAX I 84 PDP-11/23 82 PDP-11/24 81 PDP-11/34 76 PDP-11/44 80 PDP-11/70 75 Professional 300 82 Professional 325 83 Professional 350 83 Rainbow 100 82 Rainbow 100+ 83 VAX-11/730 82 VAX-11/750 80 Deltadata Systems Corp. D8000 83 Micro Manager 83 Delta Products Inc. Delta One 83 Delta Two 83 Delta Four 83 DP/Net 83 DP/125 83 Digicomp Research System 100 81 Digidyne 5832 77 5864 80 Series 200 82 Digital Microsystems DMS-3 83 DMS-4 80 DMS-15 83 DMS-86 82 DMS-1280 83 DMS-5080 82 Digital Technology Model 580 79 Digitex Model 7100 83 Model 7200 83 Model 7300 83 Model 7500 83 Model 8100 83 Model 8200 83 Model 8300 83 Model 8500 83 Dimension Computer Corp. 1010 82 1020 82 2010 82 3020 83 Direct, Inc. Model 1000 81 Model 1025 81 Model 1031 83 Display Data Corp. Insight 74 DMC Systems Commfile 78 Docutel BCS 2025 80 BCS 2030 79 DC-M18 84 M10 84 M20 83 P6060 77 S6000 81 DTC 710 83 A22 83 B23 82 Micro 210 81 Data Technology Industries Associate 79 Dual Systems Control Corp. 83/20 84 83/80 84 83/500 84 Durango Systems Inc. 800 79 800XR 83 900 83 910 83 Dynabyte Business Computers 6600 82 6900 82 Monarch 6000 82 ---end- From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Apr 3 17:43:37 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Classic computers & home video game systems for sale/trade/wanted Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20467B9C7@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> > For Sale/Trade: > > - Kaypro II CP/M portable > - TRS-80 Model 4 > - Commodore VIC-20 in original box, power supply, some docs > - Commodore 64 in original box, power supply, manuals (plus various > accessories available) > - Commodore 128 in original box, power supply > - Atari 1200XL computer (no power supply, untested) > - Colecovision, 2 controllers, power supply, a few games > - Atari 5200, base system unit only > > Computers Wanted: > > - S-100 bus systems (specifically Altair, Imsai, North Star, Processor > Tech, Cromemco) > - TI 99/4A in original box only > - IBM 5100 portable > - Exidy Sorcerer > - Compucolor II or 8051 > - Atari 400 or 800 (not XL) > - RCA COSMAC VIP - KIM-1 > Software/Accessories Wanted: > > - Microsoft Adventure for Apple II or TRS-80 > - CP/M & any manuals/diagrams for Altair, Imsai, North Star, Processor > Tech, Cromemco, Kaypro, Osborne > - Atari 5200 controllers > - Lear Siegler ADM-3a dumb terminal > - S-100 bus cards > > Game Systems Wanted: > - Tandy VIS > - Bally Professional Arcade > - Fairchild Channel F > - Magnavox Odyssey (not Odyssey2) > - Sears Telegames Pong (not Super Pong, not Atari-branded) > - Intellivision, Sega Master System or any Atari model in original > boxes only (I already have them loose) > From foxnhare at goldrush.com Thu Apr 3 22:30:27 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Stuff I found & WWW update Message-ID: <334483E2.1339@goldrush.com> Well in a last minute romp over to Oakdale (CA) I found a few goodies to add to my collection. A thrift store (located on F Street, FYI) had a good selection that day AND a 1/2 price sale! What I picked up: An Atari 800; always liked this machine, good resolution, fun games and FOUR joystick ports. I popped open the cartridge cover before purchasing to discover the BASIC cart ws in it. After getting it home I found it was loaded with 48k of RAM, now all I have to do is start looking for a power supply and other peripherals to go with it (if it works). Can't wait till I find star raiders and all those other cool games I saw at store displays years back. This is a divergence from my mainly Commodore collection but prices are pretty tempting nowadays... (at least there is something good about the intel/microsoft hype). Vectrex Game system, looks kinda grimey and no joystick, but does power up with the space mines game, already found a few resources on the 'net but not the pinouts for the joystick yet. A Commodore Greenline Calculator WITH the power supply. A nice compliment to the two Minutemans (a model 6 and 6X) and the rechargable one (which I have to still figure out if the rechargable batteries are still good.) What I left behind: A Commodore Plus/4 (computer, power supply and books located at various locations around the store.) I have a couple already, that should be enough. A Beige TI 99/4a (in box w/power supply, $20.) They also had an extra TI 99/4a keyboard assembly for about $5... Tandy 2000 (keyboard priced separately from CPU), then the usual monochrome monitors, Atari joysticks, etc... Also... I just uploaded some new stuff to my web page! So step rrrrright up and see the amazing Commodore Collection of Larry Anderson, a rare glimpse at a Commodore P-500 Computer, A few notes on the Commodore PET, and what happened at the last Silicon Realms BBS Gaming/Gathering! just go to: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Larry Anderson From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri Apr 4 10:18:47 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Stuff I found & WWW update In-Reply-To: <334483E2.1339@goldrush.com>; from "Larry Anderson & Diane Hare" at Apr 03, 97 8:30 pm Message-ID: <199704040918.26990@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Vectrex Game system, looks kinda grimey and no joystick, but does > power up with the space mines game, already found a few resources on the > 'net but not the pinouts for the joystick yet. The _service_ manual is available from ftp.csus.edu in /pub/vectrex, I think. That contains a full schematic, and hence a pinout of the joystick port. If you can't find it, I'll dig out the pinout. I also have schematics of adapters to use Tandy CoCo and IBM PC joysticks with the Vectrex. If you'd like copies, I'd be happy to provide them. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri Apr 4 10:24:18 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Stuff I found & WWW update In-Reply-To: from "To:classiccmp@u.washington.edu" at Apr 04, 97 10:18 am Message-ID: <199704040924.27067@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > The _service_ manual is available from ftp.csus.edu in /pub/vectrex, I > think. That contains a full schematic, and hence a pinout of the joystick > port. If you can't find it, I'll dig out the pinout. As I've found it, I might as well post it.... Here you are : 1 Switch 0 (Push to make, connected between here and ground) 2 Switch 1 3 Swtich 2 4 Switch 3 5 Pot 0 (X direction, -5V to +5V analogue input) 6 Pot 1 (Y direction, -5V to +5V analogue input) 7 +5V 8 Ground 9 -5V The vectrex connector is a 9 pin D, but it's down a rather deep hole. A normal socket won't fit, alas. I've found the best thing to do is to buy the extension lead for a Sega control pad, cut the _plug_ off the cable, and use the socket (which fits after a bit of cutting) and cable to connect to the Vectrex. Make sure you buy a cable that connects to all 9 pins - all the ones I've found do. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Apr 4 11:57:26 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Vectrex (was RE: Stuff I found & WWW update) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20469B60C@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> You can get Vectrex controllers from http://www.atari2600.com He generally has a range available, from $50 used (which is probably more than you paid for the system, but you should see the prices a complete system goes for) to $70 new in a box. BTW, you should pick up the Multicart, which has every Vectrex game ever produced in one cartridge with an on-screen menu select. See http://www.xnet.com/~skelly/multis.htm. This is the page for the guy who manufactures the multicarts, but you can also buy them from atari2600.com. You can get reproduction color overlays from http://home.earthlink.net/~mfmurdock/Vectrex/vectrex.htm. The web pointer list for Vectrex is at http://fly.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/cvg/nexus/Home/Vectrex/. There is actually one person creating brand new games for the Vectrex! Kai > ---------- > From: A.R. Duell[SMTP:ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk] > Sent: Friday, April 04, 1997 2:18 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Stuff I found & WWW update > > > Vectrex Game system, looks kinda grimey and no joystick, but does > > power up with the space mines game, already found a few resources on > the > > 'net but not the pinouts for the joystick yet. > > The _service_ manual is available from ftp.csus.edu in /pub/vectrex, I > think. That contains a full schematic, and hence a pinout of the > joystick > port. If you can't find it, I'll dig out the pinout. > > I also have schematics of adapters to use Tandy CoCo and IBM PC > joysticks > with the Vectrex. If you'd like copies, I'd be happy to provide them. > > > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill > From foxnhare at goldrush.com Fri Apr 4 17:19:18 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Cassette Tapes Aging Message-ID: <33458C77.5413@goldrush.com> >>How long do cassette tapes last? >> >I'm still getting data reliably off of Coleco Datapacks that I recorded >circa 1986. But I've heard there are limitations. Don't use the tapes much >any more. One person talking about this a while back claimed it was better >to store casettes vertically rather than horizontally. Never paid much heed >to that, so I don't know if it's true or not. I have just pulled out a cassette from storage that I used in high school starting late 1980 or early 1981. Besides the tape end breaking when rewinding (getting a bit brittle I guess), I was able to recover the files I wanted without a problem. (this was a tape used on a Commodore PET, not particularly the fastest tape drive on earth). I don't know anything about vertical, it's been in cassete cases and cassette binders. Larry Anderson From dzander at solaria.sol.net Fri Apr 4 18:18:56 1997 From: dzander at solaria.sol.net (Douglas Zander) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Cassette Tapes Aging In-Reply-To: <33458C77.5413@goldrush.com> from "Larry Anderson & Diane Hare" at Apr 4, 97 03:19:18 pm Message-ID: <199704050018.SAA24377@solaria.sol.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 915 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970404/2bed3747/attachment-0001.ksh From jeffh at eleventh.com Wed Apr 2 14:55:14 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Weekend Scavenging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just got back from checking out the 3 thrift stores that are just a few blocks from my house, and made quite a nice haul today, and I've yet to check the big flea market for the weekend! I picked up the following: 1) 1 TI-99/4A cassette tape: 'Tunnels of Doom', #PHT 6073, circa 1982 2) 3 Commodre 64 cassette taes: 'Software Starter Kit', tape #3, circa 1983; 'Start Programming with Gortek and the Microchips', 2 tapes, circa 1982. 3) 5 Timex-Sinclair 1000 tapes: 'The List Manager', 'The Budgeter', 'The Checkbook Manager', 'The Gambler', 'Grimms Fairy Tales'. All are circa 1982 and require the 16k RAM expansion. Also, they are all still in thier original Black/Red cassette cases. I also picked up some misc. manuals as well. I've not had the chance to try any of the cassettes out, but they all turn freely. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Wed Apr 2 15:11:33 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Cassette Tapes Aging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A few days ago, I posted a note asking for peoples thoughts about starting an archive for sound file images of cassette tapes. The couple of people I've heard from were fairly possitive about it, so I've decided to take the initiative and begin one. I have a two gig hard disk connected to my Amiga 3000, and am willing to use most of it to hold such an archive. Now I'd like to ask for subscribers to this list to email me images of data tapes that they may have for ANY classic computer platform. I would like to ask you do the following when doing so though: 1) Save the image as a .WAV file 2) Try to verify that the image will restore to a usuable tape, and load and run on the computer 3) include a short text file with a description and any comments such as required hardware or key commands 4) archive the files with either PKZIP or LHA 5) don't email me more than 2 images at a time. I am open to any comments or suggestions concerning this, including suggestions on what would be a good name for the archive. I also have a 2.5gig 8mm tape drive connected to my Amiga, so it would be fairly easy to back the archive up on occassion. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From MPritchard at ensemble.net Fri Apr 4 19:11:57 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Compucolor Message-ID: <199704050109.RAA06313@mx4.u.washington.edu> Hey guys, is there any information on a machine called "Compucolor" from the late 70's around? I did a search on a couple engines and came up with nothing. I'm asking because about 3 years ago, I let a working machine slip through my hands (I had actually programmed on that same machine back in '79) Next month, when I go back home, I'm going to launch an effort to find it (if it hasn't been thrown away). Thanks, Matt Pritchard graphics_grunt@ensemble_studios From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 4 19:30:50 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Weekend Scavenging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3347aa29.17419793@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Thu, 03 Apr 1997 01:55:14 +0500, you wrote: > I just got back from checking out the 3 thrift stores that are just a few >blocks from my house, and made quite a nice haul today, and I've yet to check >the big flea market for the weekend! I picked up the following: > >1) 1 TI-99/4A cassette tape: 'Tunnels of Doom', #PHT 6073, circa 1982 > FYI: the Tunnels of Doom tape requires the Tunnels of Doom module, PHM 3042. (PHM3042T included cassettes, PHM3042D included disks) My catalog lists 2 of either with the module. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan any day now! From dastar at crl.com Fri Apr 4 19:30:39 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Cassette Tapes Aging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, hellige wrote: > I am open to any comments or suggestions concerning this, including > suggestions on what would be a good name for the archive. I also have a How about the Classette Archive (Classic Cassette)? Maybe it's too cute. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Apr 4 19:57:31 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Compucolor Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2046BDEBE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> The models are Compucolor II and 8051. I recall they had vector color monitors, which are not easily replaced, which accounts for their scarcity. Note that they're on my want list. If you find one, please let me know. Kai > ---------- > From: Matt Pritchard[SMTP:MPritchard@ensemble.net] > Sent: Friday, April 04, 1997 5:11 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Compucolor > > > Hey guys, is there any information on a machine called "Compucolor" > from > the late 70's around? > > I did a search on a couple engines and came up with nothing. I'm > asking because about 3 years ago, I let a working machine slip through > my hands (I had actually programmed on that same machine back in '79) > Next month, when I go back home, I'm going to launch an effort to find > it (if it hasn't been thrown away). > > Thanks, > > Matt Pritchard > graphics_grunt@ensemble_studios > From MPritchard at ensemble.net Fri Apr 4 20:58:44 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Compucolor Message-ID: <199704050256.SAA13229@mx4.u.washington.edu> Well, this particular unit had a color raster monitor and a 5 inch floppy drive vertically mounted in the monitor portion. Any idea which model it was. I think there were also 3 different keyboards as options for it. Matt Pritchard graphics_grunt@ensemble_studios ---------- From: Kai Kaltenbach [SMTP:kaikal@MICROSOFT.com] Sent: Friday, April 04, 1997 7:58 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: RE: Compucolor The models are Compucolor II and 8051. I recall they had vector color monitors, which are not easily replaced, which accounts for their scarcity. Note that they're on my want list. If you find one, please let me know. Kai > ---------- > From: Matt Pritchard[SMTP:MPritchard@ensemble.net] > Sent: Friday, April 04, 1997 5:11 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Compucolor > > > Hey guys, is there any information on a machine called "Compucolor" > from > the late 70's around? > > I did a search on a couple engines and came up with nothing. I'm > asking because about 3 years ago, I let a working machine slip through > my hands (I had actually programmed on that same machine back in '79) > Next month, when I go back home, I'm going to launch an effort to find > it (if it hasn't been thrown away). > > Thanks, > > Matt Pritchard > graphics_grunt@ensemble_studios > From MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 2 11:28:55 1997 From: MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk (Martin Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In article , Paul E Coad writes >Store disk images on CDROM. (How long do these last? I've heard 50 >years, can anyone confirm this?) If you mean CD-Recordable, the green dye ones are 75 years, the gold dye ones are 100 years claim the manufacturers. Remember, this is by accelerated testing, so factors can probably change to alter these figures. However, the onrecorded shelf-life of the blanks is only 10 years. Data available from the CD-R FAQ at http://www.cd-info.com/CDIC/Technology/CD-R/FAQ.html -- Martin Evans at Whitfield Street Studio, London From MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 2 11:20:12 1997 From: MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk (Martin Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: <199704011752.AA23897@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: In article <199704011752.AA23897@interlock.ans.net>, William Donzelli writes >Tantalum capacitors are pretty bulletproof, and do not need this treatment. > No - we're using computer-assisted equipment from the 60's (74 type logic) where the tanatalum's are going short-circuit or leaky, so allow for a 20-30 year lifetime. -- Martin Evans at Whitfield Street Studio, London From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 5 09:36:11 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Cassette Tapes Aging In-Reply-To: <199704050018.SAA24377@solaria.sol.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, Douglas Zander wrote: > I've heard that cassette tapes should be stored vertically because if the > edge of the tape is resting against the case then it could buckle and get > bent out of shape. I've never heard anything like that, but I do know that tapes suffer from a much more common ailment: the oxide deteriorates with an audible change in frequency response. Normal audio tapes turn all bassy (lose high frequencies). That said, most of the tapes I have for Commodores and Acorns load without any trouble even today. Some of the ones I used on the Oric are completely gone, though. Those are from 1984. Some were good quality tapes, as well. But they're still unreadble by the machine. Most of the commercial software tapes are fine, though. I guess it has something to do with my tape recorder and the fact that Orics wrote tapes at 2400 baud instead of the more usual 300, 1200 or 1500 baud. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From william at ans.net Sat Apr 5 18:05:47 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Timonium/The goods are out there... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704060005.AA06532@interlock.ans.net> I attended the Timonium hamfest/computer fest today near Baltimore, and I must admit to classics are still out there... I saw many of the old standbys (Atari, Amiga, etc.), but the real treat for me was the higher end stuff. Sun-3s are starting to come out in adundance (I purchased an empty box for RCS/RI), even some older SPARCs and an SGI, and plenty of other older workstations. Also evident was a bit of old DEC stuff. I went away with quite a bit of a PDP-11/20, and a small VAX 11/730 system. I had to leave two PDP-11/44s and a custom DEC thingie (PDP-16?), plus a Lisa 2, because my car was stuffed. Was is my point (other than boasting about my latest find)? If you do not go to the fests, GO!!!!! Most likely those PDP-11/44s are furnace fodder, unless another collector gets them. The only way these systems will be saved is if we collectors save them. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dynasoar at mindspring.com Sat Apr 5 22:09:24 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Timoniom/The Goods... Message-ID: <334721F4.76E7@mindspring.com> William's description of the goodies at the Hamfest made me envious... Is there a listing somewhere of these meets? I sure would love to go to a few. Also: anyone out there with any parts resources/docs/specs for an Amstrad PC6400DD? Got one in very good shape at a local yard sale, but am unsure just exactly how to go about fixing it up. From looking at it, seems to resemble a PCJR clone. Any help or information would be appreciated. Thanks, Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From chris at thanatos.yawc.net Sat Apr 5 06:39:27 1997 From: chris at thanatos.yawc.net (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Timoniom/The Goods... In-Reply-To: <334721F4.76E7@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <199704061138.MAA05426@thanatos.yawc.net> > William's description of the goodies at the Hamfest made me envious... > > Is there a listing somewhere of these meets? I sure would love to > go to a few. > > Also: anyone out there with any parts resources/docs/specs for an > Amstrad PC6400DD? Got one in very good shape at a local yard sale, but > am unsure just exactly how to go about fixing it up. From looking at it, > seems to resemble a PCJR clone. Any help or information would be > appreciated. Never heard of that model number, might be the US version of the PC1640DD which was an 8086 AFAIK, with 640K and dual 5.25" floppy disk drives. Expansion was through standard 8bit XT slots, if you're lucky someone might have stuck a hard card in it. The other popular upgrade was swapping the CPU for a NEC V20. The PSU was combined into the CGA monitor so unless it has the monitor with it you'll have to chuck together a small PSU for it. The keyboard connector was non-standard and ISTR there were keyboards at the time which had AT/XT/Amstrad switches so the keyboard wiring maybe non-standard too. The other alternative is that it's the PPC640DD which was a portable 8086 with a fullsized keyboard and a non-backlit CGA LCD screen occupying about half the length on the right hand side (or was it LHS =\ ). The machine had dual 3.5" floppies and a built in 2400baud modem, ISTR there was one 8bit expansion slot. There was at least one upgrade company in the UK that would supply backlights and HDs for these machines but that was about 4 or 5 years ago. - /-------------------------------------------------------------------\ | The Lost One, Thanatos admin and all round good egg | You can't | | Contact Thanatos BBS on *http://thanatos.yawc.net, | fool me. | | *ftp://thanatos.yawc.net or | There ain't | | *telnet://thanatos.yawc.net | no Sanity | | | Clause! | \-------------------------------------------------------------------/ From ronaldm at mars.ark.com Sun Apr 6 07:59:13 1997 From: ronaldm at mars.ark.com (Ron Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: How long will they last? Message-ID: <199704061259.FAA01758@mars.ark.com> >I decided to seriously collect only those machinews that were built with >standard parts. Not a bad idea. It's been my experience that those who attempted to build the 'perfect widget' ended up shooting themselves in the foot more likely than not, all in the name of securing some perceived competitive advantage. In Coleco's case, the results were disastrous. -Ron Mitchell From groberts at mitre.org Sun Apr 6 11:40:53 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: Timonium/The goods are out there... In-Reply-To: <199704060005.AA06532@interlock.ans.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970406124053.007f3640@postman> At 07:05 PM 4/5/97 -0500, William Donzelli wrote: >I attended the Timonium hamfest/computer fest today near Baltimore, and I >must admit to classics are still out there... i agree it was pretty wild. but you really do have to scrounge to find the pre-PC era stuff (translation: there were TONS of 286/386s, PS/2s, etc.) On the other hand if you wanted to put together the pieces of an "original" PC or PC/XT it would be a cinch (PC video and other cards going for as little as 10 cents; hard disks for 50 cents! cabinets for a buck or two). on the pre-PC front there was still a fair amount of commodore stuff (e.g. i picked up a $3 C/16 plus a box of Vic 20 stuff) but you have to shop for price. i didn't see any "cool" microcomputer stuff like any S/100, Heathkit or other early era systems or SBC's like the KIM, but if you go to enough of these something's bound to turn up. there were handouts there for upcoming ham/computer fests, e.g. Luzerne Co, (PA) on 7/6, Frederick Co. (MD) on father's day (6/15), and Manassas (VA) on 6/1. There doesn't appear to be a web site for any of these hamfests. then again there's always the upcoming Trenton Computer Festival on 4/26 and 4/27: http://www.tcf.net/index1.html - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Sun Apr 6 13:08:36 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: (fwd) Computer Shows Message-ID: <334ae65a.9512186@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Someone wondered about Hamfests, etc.: On Sat, 05 Apr 97 05:15:48 GMT, in misc.forsale.computers.other.systems valuecf@tiac.net (Value Computer Fairs, Inc.) wrote: > > >Value Computer Fairs, Inc. > >Visit us on the web: www.vcfonline.com > > >Upcoming Shows (NY) > >April 6th- Hofstra University > Hempstead, Long Island > > Show Hours: 9:30am - 3:00pm > Admission: $5 ($4 w/ copy of this post) > > >April 20th- Golden Gate Inn > Brooklyn, N.Y. > > Show Hours: 9:30am - 3:00pm > Admission: $5 ($4 w/ copy of this post) > >April 26th- Holiday Inn > Carle Place, Long Island > >April 27th- Holiday Inn > Ronkonkoma, Long Island > > > >Want a show in your area, e-mail us with your suggestion!!!!! > >For more info, visit our web site or call us at (800)997-Show. > >and remember WHY PAY RETAIL? _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan any day now! From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sun Apr 6 14:31:03 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: FS: Misc Computers on AuctionWeb Message-ID: <3347F9F7.2396@oboe.calpoly.edu> I just listed a few different systems on auctionweb. This is a great place to look for stuff. Included is an Apple III, hard to find. I also have some old video game systems listed. Check them out at the links below: Channel F Game Console Bidding starts at: $2.00 Auction ends on: 04/12/97, 19:12:53 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=wwm1252 Lot of 4 Channel F Game Cartridges Current bid: $2.00 Auction ends on: 04/12/97, 19:23:06 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=omg7762 Commodore Plus 4 Computer Bidding starts at: $2.00 Auction ends on: 04/12/97, 19:30:29 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=myy11036 Lot - Texas Instr. TI-99/4A Computers & More! Bidding starts at: $2.00 Auction ends on: 04/12/97, 19:58:46 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=ggv55391 RS TRS-80 Color Computer 2, Carts, Joy, More! Bidding starts at: $2.00 Auction ends on: 04/12/97, 20:48:46 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=tdu0192 Atari 7800 ProSystem w/Game Cartridges! Current bid: $10.50 Auction ends on: 04/12/97, 21:31:20 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=fcf174 Apple III Computer System! (photo) Bidding starts at: $20.00 Auction ends on: 04/12/97, 22:55:24 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=ely44807 From MPritchard at ensemble.net Sun Apr 6 16:21:49 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How long will they last? Message-ID: <199704062119.OAA20529@mx3.u.washington.edu> >>I decided to seriously collect only those machinews that were built with >>standard parts. >Not a bad idea. It's been my experience that those who attempted to build >the 'perfect widget' ended up shooting themselves in the foot more likely >than not, all in the name of securing some perceived competitive advantage. >In Coleco's case, the results were disastrous. > -Ron Mitchell Wasn't the Colecovision built entirely out of "standard" parts, unlike the other systems of the day? Matt Pritchard graphics_grunt@ensemble_studios From george.lin at documentum.com Sun Apr 6 19:25:07 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: Digital Microsystems DMS-3F, DEC Rainbow, TS 1000 Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970406172507.015fdb00@lion.documentum.com> Hello, Does anyone know something about Digital Microsystems DMS-3F? I saw one today. It has a built-in monitor, 2 5.25" floppy disk drives, centronics printer interface, and 4 serial ports (?) for connecting terminals I presume. If it is worth collecting then I will haul it home. I also saw a DEC Rainbow. However, it is priced at $89.95--way more than I am used to pay. Does a DEC Rainbow worth this much? I picked up a mint condition Timex Sinclair 1000 though. I have been wanting to collect it for some time. Does anyone know the polarity of its 9V DC input? I don't want to risk damaging it by reversing the polarity. Thanks in advance for any information. George -- George Lin "Accelerating your business through Network Architect, MIS enterprise document managment." Documentum, Inc. (Nasdaq: DCTM) http://www.documentum.com Inet Fax: mailto:remote-printer.George_Lin@4.3.8.6.3.6.4.0.1.5.1.tpc.int My PGP Public Key for encryption is at http://george.home.ml.org/pgp.htm From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 6 18:32:27 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: It's true! (Also, Acetronic/Radofin Video Games) Message-ID: Ok, I admit it. You really *can* find more stuff these few weeks. I went to car boot sale today and got three machines (five, were I willing to shell out for two C64Cs with a floppy drive and a PSU between them). I'm not the proud owner of a Spectrum 48k (at last!) in mint condition and a Spectrum +2A in even better shape. I actually got the +2A at half the price of the 48k -- 5 pounds for the +2A (around $7? Not sure) as opposed to 10 pounds for the 48k. There was another +2A for sale at the outrageous price of 15 pounds (at least I *hope* I heard 15 -- at that noise level, it could have been -gasp- 50). Anyway, enough about the Spectra (sic). :-) There's another find I might need a little help with. It's not strictly a computer, it's a video game (Video Entertainment System, as it says on the front panel). Specifically, an Acetronic MPU-1000. The PCB has a Radofin label on it. There are two analog joysticks with two red fire buttons and a 12 button keypad each. They're connected to the unit with spiral cable (no plugs). The controllers are designed to take overlays to give meaning to the 12 unmarked keys. I don't have any overlays, but there are four carts: Invaders, cart #1 (Olympics -- actually a more or less standard set of Pong-like games), cart #11 (Super Maze -- remember A-Maze-ing on the TI? It's very similar. Analogue control of the players is quite tricky), and cart #13 (Circus -- I haven't figured this one out yet due to the erratic behaviour of one of the controllers [read: vertical axis doesn't work properly, fire button won't]). The cartridges claim to be "suitable for Acetronic, Radofin 1292 & Prinztronic microprocessor systems". Does anyone have any ideas about this? Is it common or uncommon? The name Radofin was familiar, after a bit of research it turns out it's the company that bought the rights to the Aquarius. Any technical information would be welcome, since I can't identify either of the LSI ICs on the PCB (yes, two of them). Oh, by the way, in the highly unlikely case this is amazingly rare and the only one left on the planet (unlikely because at least another person on the WWW has one, albeit an MPU-2000), I obtained this at the silly price of 2 UK pounds. The previous owners seemed a bit amazed at the fact that someone might actually be *INTERESTED* in that piece of junk. Can't complain, really. :-) Thanks, Alexios --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 6 19:01:43 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: It's true! (Also, Acetronic/Radofin Video Games) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: Wasting some more bandwidth to correct myself. :-) > Ok, I admit it. You really *can* find more stuff these few weeks. I went > to car boot sale today and got three machines (five, were I willing to shell ^^^^^^ Proofread carefully to see if you any words out. > I'm not the proud owner of a Spectrum 48k (at last!) in mint condition and *Now*. I'm *now* the proud owner of a Spectrum 48k etc. Duh... What's "IQ" mean? Sorry for the waste of bandwidth! I'm off to LART myself. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 6 19:53:43 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: FS: Misc Computers on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: <3347F9F7.2396@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970406175343.00dbbb68@agora.rdrop.com> At 12:31 PM 4/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >I just listed a few different systems on auctionweb. This is a great >place to look for stuff. Included is an Apple III, hard to find. I also >have some old video game systems listed. Check them out at the links >below: > <<< listing omitted to save space... >>> (hoping that this does not come off sounding too rude... ((I'm going to develop a reputation)) Ahem... If you were really interested in offering these systems to someone who might appreciate them, why not list them HERE with an asking price first and then move to AuctionWeb (or similar) if they did not sell or you could not get your price. This message to me feels like little more than trolling for dollars... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 6 19:06:09 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: Digital Microsystems DMS-3F, DEC Rainbow, TS 1000 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970406172507.015fdb00@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: > I also saw a DEC Rainbow. However, it is priced at $89.95--way more than I > am used to pay. Does a DEC Rainbow worth this much? Probably not, in the States. Anyway, mine is in Europe and I got it for free. It's been used for less than 100 hours; it's got all the original software including lots of disks. Tower "case" (actually a box that makes the desktop case look bulkier and more mini-like), colo{,u}r monitor and display card, 300 baud acoustic coupler, printer. The owner really was careful with his machine: he even gave me the official DEC screen cleaning liquid! :-) Btw, is it true that you can't format disks on the Rainbow and need DEC preformatted ones instead? --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Sun Apr 6 19:27:25 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: FS: Misc Computers on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970406175343.00dbbb68@agora.rdrop.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19970406175343.00dbbb68@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <334a3efd.32202857@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sun, 06 Apr 1997 17:53:43 -0700, you wrote: >Ahem... If you were really interested in offering these systems to someone >who might appreciate them, why not list them HERE with an asking price >first and then move to AuctionWeb (or similar) if they did not sell or you >could not get your price. > >This message to me feels like little more than trolling for dollars... > I had assumed that for sale ads were forbidden/discouraged here. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan any day now! From lists at phx6.phxmedia.com Mon Apr 7 01:30:41 1997 From: lists at phx6.phxmedia.com (Lists at phxmedia) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: New ATARI 1040ST user needs help... Message-ID: <199704070630.XAA13921@phx6.phxmedia.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 531 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970406/c23d2253/attachment-0001.ksh From george.lin at documentum.com Mon Apr 7 01:46:12 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: New ATARI 1040ST user needs help... In-Reply-To: <199704070630.XAA13921@phx6.phxmedia.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970406234612.00a8cdd0@lion.documentum.com> I suggest you do a search on Yahoo or on another Internet search engine that you prefer. I know there is an active Atari ST community out there. You shouldn't have any problem finding the stuff you need. Personally I know a UC Berkeley professor who still uses his Atari 1040ST to keep track of student grades. George At 11:30 PM 4/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Gang, > >I picked up an Atari 1040ST today for $25 -- as is. No cables, no manuals, >no floppy disks, nothing. I figured I'd be able to build up a little >working system (if the thing still works), but need some help. > >If anyone here knows of any resources for floppy disks, manuals (i.e. how >do I plug this thing in?), etc. please let me know -- I'd like to put this >computer to use in my studio -- it has MIDI In/Out, and there's some cool >software for it and one of my synthesizers that I've been meaning to check out. > >j. > > -- George Lin "Accelerating your business through Network Architect, MIS enterprise document managment." Documentum, Inc. (Nasdaq: DCTM) http://www.documentum.com Inet Fax: mailto:remote-printer.George_Lin@4.3.8.6.3.6.4.0.1.5.1.tpc.int My PGP Public Key for encryption is at http://george.home.ml.org/pgp.htm From dzander at solaria.sol.net Mon Apr 7 01:48:11 1997 From: dzander at solaria.sol.net (Douglas Zander) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: New ATARI 1040ST user needs help... In-Reply-To: <199704070630.XAA13921@phx6.phxmedia.com> from "Lists at phxmedia" at Apr 6, 97 11:30:41 pm Message-ID: <199704070648.BAA08794@solaria.sol.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1550 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970407/5561000e/attachment-0001.ksh From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Mon Apr 7 01:40:39 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: FS: Misc Computers on AuctionWeb Message-ID: <334896E7.1FCB@oboe.calpoly.edu> Hello, Jim Willing wrote: >>I just listed a few different systems on auctionweb. This is a great >>place to look for stuff. Included is an Apple III, hard to find. I also >>have some old video game systems listed. Check them out at the links >>below: <<< listing omitted to save space... >>> Thanks Jim > (hoping that this does not come off sounding too rude... ((I'm going > to develop a reputation)) It doesn't (I don't think). I feel the same way sometimes. > Ahem... If you were really interested in offering these systems to someone > who might appreciate them, why not list them HERE with an asking price first > and then move to AuctionWeb (or similar) if they did not sell or you could > not get your price. Here's my situation: I enjoy searching for these old computers. Sometimes even more than toying with them. I spend a lot of time digging and driving and hauling and testing but I love it. I have saved quite a few from the landfill. If you watch the auction you will see that the items there do not necessarily sell for more than their value. In most cases, I don't even know what to ask and in quite a few I have sold them for less or as much as I paid for them. Not to mention my time and packing, shipping, etc. No, I'm not a charity. But I'm also genuinely interested in the hobby. I make a few bucks and it helps me pay my tuition. I'm a full time engineering student and am putting myself through school. I'm really working cheap. And believe me if I was back in the "real" world with a paycheck coming in every week, I'd probably give these little guys away for a song or trade them to help someone elses collection. > This message to me feels like little more than trolling for dollars... Sorry it appears that way. I really try not to post this stuff too much. Greg From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Mon Apr 7 01:56:29 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: FS: Misc Computers on AuctionWeb Message-ID: <33489A9D.15E@oboe.calpoly.edu> bm_pete@ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) wrote: > > > >Ahem... If you were really interested in offering these systems to = > someone..... > > I had assumed that for sale ads were forbidden/discouraged here. I was under the impression that it was ok as long as it's not excessive. I even mentioned it in my introduction message and have seen it discussed a couple times. I believe this was my first post of this type. I don't want to make any enemies here. Sorry for any inconvenience. Greg From jj at scs.leeds.ac.uk Mon Apr 7 03:22:59 1997 From: jj at scs.leeds.ac.uk (Jim Jackson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Martin Evans wrote: > In article <199704011752.AA23897@interlock.ans.net>, William Donzelli > writes > >Tantalum capacitors are pretty bulletproof, and do not need this treatment. > > > > > No - we're using computer-assisted equipment from the 60's (74 > type logic) where the tanatalum's are going short-circuit or leaky, so > allow for a 20-30 year lifetime. Maybe my memory is a bit vague - but tantalums in the 1960's ?????????? Jim From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun Apr 6 18:32:19 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: New ATARI 1040ST user needs help... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 07-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >I picked up an Atari 1040ST today for $25 -- as is. No cables, no manuals, >no floppy disks, nothing. I figured I'd be able to build up a little >working system (if the thing still works), but need some help. >If anyone here knows of any resources for floppy disks, manuals (i.e. how >do I plug this thing in?), etc. please let me know -- I'd like to put this >computer to use in my studio -- it has MIDI In/Out, and there's some cool >software for it and one of my synthesizers that I've been meaning to check >out. The 1040ST is a nice system, but you'll need to find one of the Atari monitors for it, such as the SM-124 (very nice mono) or the SC-1224 (color). You don't need an OS disks for it, as the OS is built into ROM, and it uses standard PC 720k disks. For software and such, Toad Computers in Severna, MD is a good resource..and they even sell TOS upgrades and refurb monitors. Atari's have been their specialty for years. Hope this helps. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun Apr 6 18:35:17 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: New ATARI 1040ST user needs help... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 07-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > get started. An Atari can read IBM/compatable disks (but not vice-versa) > What this means is that you can download software on your PC at > double-density (720K) and then pop the disk into your 1040ST and run it. Actually, that's not true...it was meant to be write compatible as well, but there is a bug in TOS 1.02 and below that screws up part of the format...there are plenty of utilities to fix this, or you can upgrade the machine to TOS 1.04, 'Rainbow Tos'. Fixes a lot of bugs. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From Bill_Opalka.INTDATA at notes.intdata.com Mon Apr 7 09:12:38 1997 From: Bill_Opalka.INTDATA at notes.intdata.com (Bill Opalka) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: Digital Microsystems DMS-3F, DEC Rainbow, TS 1000 Message-ID: <9704071325.AA0240@notes.intdata.com> >> Btw, is it true that you can't format disks on the Rainbow and need DEC >> preformatted ones instead? Actually, if you have CPM-86, you can format regular 5 1/4 floppies into RX50 floppies. The MSDOS version of the software was hindered so that it couldn't be done. /Bill From william at ans.net Mon Apr 7 11:56:05 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704071656.AA04664@interlock.ans.net> > > No - we're using computer-assisted equipment from the 60's (74 > > type logic) where the tanatalum's are going short-circuit or leaky, so > > allow for a 20-30 year lifetime. It sounds like you just may have a bunch of cruddy capacitors (or a power supply problem that is not killing the chips). I have never found a bad tantalum capacitor. > Maybe my memory is a bit vague - but tantalums in the 1960's ?????????? They were around in the 1960s, but basically for military applications. William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Apr 7 18:06:59 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How long will they last? In-Reply-To: <199704071656.AA04664@interlock.ans.net>; from "William Donzelli" at Apr 7, 97 12:56 (noon) Message-ID: <199704071706.6836@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > > No - we're using computer-assisted equipment from the 60's (74 > > > type logic) where the tanatalum's are going short-circuit or leaky, so > > > allow for a 20-30 year lifetime. > > It sounds like you just may have a bunch of cruddy capacitors (or a power > supply problem that is not killing the chips). I have never found a bad > tantalum capacitor. I had a tantalum bead fail on an IBM CGA card the other week. I wanted to verify a bug occured with the genuine card, so I pulled it out of my spares box, plugged it in and powered up. _One_ tantalum capacitor exploded, giving off a small cloud of smoke and an unpleasant smell, and the remains seemed to be glowing red hot. The rest of the card worked fine, and still does AFAIK. That card was about 15 years old, of course. > William Donzelli -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dzander at solaria.sol.net Mon Apr 7 13:47:32 1997 From: dzander at solaria.sol.net (Douglas Zander) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: New ATARI 1040ST user needs help... In-Reply-To: from "hellige" at Apr 7, 97 04:32:19 am Message-ID: <199704071847.NAA13013@solaria.sol.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 930 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970407/59ee029a/attachment-0001.ksh From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Apr 7 20:25:01 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: FS: Misc Computers on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: <334a3efd.32202857@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > >Ahem... If you were really interested in offering these systems to someone > >who might appreciate them, why not list them HERE with an asking price > >first and then move to AuctionWeb (or similar) if they did not sell or you > >could not get your price. > > > >This message to me feels like little more than trolling for dollars... > > I had assumed that for sale ads were forbidden/discouraged here. This is a FAQ (attached at bottom). As far as I'm concerned - this is OK. If people are selling old computer junk - even on auctionweb - there are probably folks here who are interested. Posting for profit is OK with me if it's on topic and doesn't get out of hand. Anyone is free to contact me via private e-mail if this needs further discussion. Bill Whitson ClassicCmp "owner" bcw@u.washington.edu bill@booster.u.washington.edu --- ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.0 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? 1.3 What's a Classic Computer? 1.4 Who runs this thing? 1.5 Don't you know you're duplicating what others have done? 2.1 What can I talk about? 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? 2.3 Can I talk about Mini/MainFrames? 2.4 Can I post advertisments? 2.5 Can I ask people to give me their computers? 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x? 2.7 Where should I look before posting a dumb question? 3.1 How many subscribers are there? 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a Web Site? 4.2 How come the Web Site is so ugly? 5.1 Where can I find Classic Computers? 5.2 How much is machine x worth? 5.3 Will 1000's of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection (just hoarding), restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them. 1.3 What is a Classic Computer? Any computer that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic. This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to work OK, so I've kept it. 1.4 Who runs this thing? That would be me, Bill Whitson. I'm a network administrator at the University of Washington. This is one of my hobbies and I got tired of waiting for someone else to create a list like this. I can be reached at bcw@u.washington.edu. 1.5 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done. Damn straight. That's what the internet's all about. 2.1 What can I talk about? Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might want to check facts before you start shooting off messages. 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then be aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC newsgroups. 2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames? Yep. Lots of bulky computer folks here. 2.4 Can I post advertisements? Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course, use your brain - don't post repeatedly. 2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers? Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example, would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on usenet who will vouch for this. 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x. Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic electronics tools (DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). 2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question? It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below). 3.1 How many subscribers are there? Around 200, fluxing daily. 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? Don't bother asking me. If you really want to know go ahead and post to the list. I really don't know what having a number will do for you... 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a web site? Yep. http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html 4.2 How come the web site is so ugly? How come a PET is so ugly? Who cares as long as it works? 5.1 Where can I find classic computers? The best places seem to be thrift stores and swap meets. These are closely followed by pawn shops and mom and pop computer stores. The holy grails are electronics scrap yards - but they tend to be wary of individual pick-and-choosers. Oh yeah - garage sales! 5.2 How much is machine x worth? Precisely as much as you'll pay for it. Oh, you're selling it? Then , precisely as much as I'll pay for it. 5.3 Will 1000's of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? Yes. This is the impetus behind every collectors tireless and selfless effort. Each machine we fail to save has it's gold parts mercilessly hacked off and sold (just like rhino horns - and look at the rhinos). The remainder is then sent to China to be made into bicycle spokes. Save a computer! Act now! Remind you wife of the rhino and cuter, furrier animals. It might work. From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 7 21:37:15 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: FS: Misc Computers on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > > > >Ahem... If you were really interested in offering these systems to someone > > >who might appreciate them, why not list them HERE with an asking price > > >first and then move to AuctionWeb (or similar) if they did not sell or you > > >could not get your price. > > > > > >This message to me feels like little more than trolling for dollars... > > > > I had assumed that for sale ads were forbidden/discouraged here. I think as long as it doesn't constitute spam, for sale messages should definitely be allowed. I'd hate for the discussion to simply turn into a for sale listing, but I doubt that would ever happen. I would definitely like to know if anyone out there has some excess of one thing that they'd like to get rid of or trade for something else. After all, what better place to advertise that you have a classic computer for sale or trade than on this list? You're almost guaranteed to find a perfect buyer/seller match. Again, as long as it isn't spammed every day. One message announcing an item for sale/trade should suffice. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From wbrco at valuenet.net Mon Apr 7 22:24:20 1997 From: wbrco at valuenet.net (Allen Underdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: It's true! (Also, Acetronic/Radofin Video Games) References: Message-ID: <3349BA64.1DB@valuenet.net> Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > > On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > > Wasting some more bandwidth to correct myself. :-) > > > Ok, I admit it. You really *can* find more stuff these few weeks. I went > > to car boot sale today and got three machines (five, were I willing to shell > ^^^^^^ > Proofread carefully to see if you any words out. ^^^^^^^ Ahem - as you were saying.. :) don't feel bad, I married an editor, I get corrected all the time! > > > I'm not the proud owner of a Spectrum 48k (at last!) in mint condition and > > *Now*. I'm *now* the proud owner of a Spectrum 48k etc. Duh... What's "IQ" > mean? > > Sorry for the waste of bandwidth! I'm off to LART myself. > > --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- > Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk > The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk -- | Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | | Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | | homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | | Try My BBS at 314.939.9445! | From dcobley at island.net Mon Apr 7 22:33:55 1997 From: dcobley at island.net (David Cobley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Available Message-ID: <199704080333.UAA16258@norm.island.net> Several weeks ago, through a contact made here, I offered my Xerox 16/8 system to a fellow Canadian who lives in Saskatoon, and to whom I had previously shipped a set of manuals for the TRS 80 Model 16. I never heard if they arrived. And I can't get a reply to an e-mail from him so I'm assuming he's incommunicado or uninterested. So - I'm going to follow the suggestion made by our worthy founder and offer it here. I wish to dispose of my Xerox 16/8 system which is just sitting idle packed away in it's original cartons. I'm not interested in selling the system. It's free to whoever wants to pay the shipping charges. Can't beat the price. But it's take the lot or take nothing! It comprises:- Xerox 16/8 Professional Computer system:- 1 Display Unit. 1 Rigid Drive + 5.25" Floppy Disk Expansion Module. 1 Keyboard and Mouse. 2 Shoe boxes full of 5.25" 360k diskettes, some original, some copies, about 200 or so disks altogether. Manuals, All in original covers and in excellent condition. 1 Operating System Reference Guide. 1 Technical Reference Manual 1 CP/M 80 & CP/M 86 Operating Systems Programmer's Information Manual. 1 Operations Manual. 1 MS-DOS Operating System Programmer's Reference Manual. 1 Business Graphics Reference Guide. 1 MS-DOS Operating System Reference Guide including: 1 - User's Guide & 1 - Macro Assembler Manual. 1 CP/M 80 & CP/M 86 Operating Systems Handbook. 1 MS-DOS Operating System Handbook. 1 Business Graphics Handbook. 1 dBase II Manual. When I received the system from my vendor, last summer, I assembled it and it worked beautifully. But I needed the space in my computer room for my heavily upgraded Coleco-Adam which was my first computer. So the Xerox had to be stored away and I'm concerned it may be deteriorating in my unheated loft. So, either the Xerox continues sitting up in the loft, or someone wants it. The problem is I live on Vancouver Island which means that shipping these 4 heavy cartons, 3 for the computer and 1 for the books and disks, could be expensive. Even by bus. That's how they came to me from Vancouver. I weighed each of the four packages that comprise the Xerox and it worked out like this:- Expansion Module (hard and floppy drives) weighs just under 35 lbs. I called it 35# Display unit weighs just under 35 lbs. I called it 35#. Keyboard and Mouse weigh just under 10 lbs. I called it 10# And the books and disks weigh just under 40 lbs. I called it 40#. I also have a Kaypro Technical Manual covering the Kaypro 2, 2/4, 10. 2/84, 2X, 4/84, and ROBIE systems that I don't need. Anyone interested can let me know by e-mail. Cheers. David Cobley. Fidonet on the ADAM, CP/M Tech and Hewlett-Packard Echoes. Internet-dcobley@island.net, or, davidc@macn.bc.ca From danjo at xnet.com Mon Apr 7 23:11:13 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Available In-Reply-To: <199704080333.UAA16258@norm.island.net> Message-ID: Maybe we shouldn't allow posts like this!!!! BAWWWWWWWWWW BAWWWWWWWW BAAWWWBAWWWWBAWWWWWW I could NEVER afford the shipping. I could probably DRIVE there and PICK IT UP but not until summer BAWWWBAWWWWW (The basement is flooding from my tears alone!!!!!) On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, David Cobley wrote: [Snip] > I wish to dispose of my Xerox 16/8 system which is just sitting idle packed > away in it's original cartons. I'm not interested in selling the system. > It's free to whoever wants to pay the shipping charges. Can't beat the > price. But it's take the lot or take nothing! [Snip] > When I received the system from my vendor, last summer, I assembled it and > it worked beautifully. ??????? [Snip] > So, either the Xerox continues sitting up in the loft, or someone wants it. > The problem is I live on Vancouver Island which means that shipping these 4 > heavy cartons, 3 for the computer and 1 for the books and disks, could be > expensive. Even by bus. That's how they came to me from Vancouver. [Snip] > David Cobley. THANKS DAVE YOUR TIMING STINKS! BC (Such is life - I think I will end mine!) From dynasoar at mindspring.com Tue Apr 8 08:05:02 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Available References: <199704080333.UAA16258@norm.island.net> Message-ID: <334A427E.4800@mindspring.com> David: I'd love to have the Xerox. Have you any idea what the freight charge by bus would be to North Carolina USA? If no one has spoken for it yet, let me know, and I will do some research from this end on what it would cost to ship it here. Thanks, Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Tue Apr 8 08:02:45 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: Wanted Systems Message-ID: <199704081302.AA03753@bs014.swec.com> I've seen a certain amount of conversation as to the appropriateness of "For Sale" messages on the list. So long as it doesn't get out of hand, some of the posts can be quite useful (like the one on IMSAI switches, for instance). How about "Wanted Systems" posts? I'm looking to flesh out my collection of 16-bit Data General hardware, and am looking for leads to systems, or systems themselves. Anything in the Nova/Eclipse line is fair game, with the exception of the 32-bit MV series (although I hope somebody is preserving them!). Any documentation is, of course, more than welcome. Thanks! -- ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From dcobley at island.net Tue Apr 8 09:36:41 1997 From: dcobley at island.net (David Cobley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Available Message-ID: <199704081436.HAA23484@norm.island.net> At 11:11 PM 4/7/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Maybe we shouldn't allow posts like >this!!!! BAWWWWWWWWWW BAWWWWWWWW BAAWWWBAWWWWBAWWWWWW > >I could NEVER afford the shipping. I could probably DRIVE there and >PICK IT UP but not until summer BAWWWBAWWWWW Tell you what, if I ever get another one, I'll save it until Summer and you can drive from wherever you are and pick it up. Deal? Cheers, David Cobley. Fidonet on the ADAM, CP/M Tech and Hewlett-Packard Echoes. Internet-dcobley@island.net, or, davidc@macn.bc.ca From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Apr 8 12:12:36 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: Wanted Systems Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20472868D@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I can't believe you have Nova 1200's. I used a 1220 in the late 70's in high school and it was old then. Ours actually had a hard drive which was about 36" on a side, covered with woodgrain vinyl, with a capacity of a MEGABYTE!! I might still have the source to my Nova multiuser Star Trek around someplace. It was so popular it got banned from the system since it slowed everything down too much. Kai > ---------- > From: carl.friend@stoneweb.com[SMTP:carl.friend@stoneweb.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 1997 6:02 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Wanted Systems > > I've seen a certain amount of conversation as to the > appropriateness > of "For Sale" messages on the list. So long as it doesn't get out of > hand, some of the posts can be quite useful (like the one on IMSAI > switches, for instance). How about "Wanted Systems" posts? > > I'm looking to flesh out my collection of 16-bit Data General > hardware, and am looking for leads to systems, or systems themselves. > Anything in the Nova/Eclipse line is fair game, with the exception > of the 32-bit MV series (although I hope somebody is preserving > them!). > Any documentation is, of course, more than welcome. > > Thanks! > > -- > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > | | > | > | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston > | > | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA > | > | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | > | > | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 > | > |________________________________________________|____________________ > _| > From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 8 18:20:47 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > Maybe we shouldn't allow posts like > this!!!! BAWWWWWWWWWW BAWWWWWWWW BAAWWWBAWWWWBAWWWWWW > > I could NEVER afford the shipping. I could probably DRIVE there and > PICK IT UP but not until summer BAWWWBAWWWWW Argh. I know the feeling. There was this post in a.f.c. some time ago about this PDP-11 with peripherals sitting in the rain and snow, waiting to be dumped. I felt so bad, it's unbelievable. Now, I wouldn't be able to maintain a PDP-11. I don't even have the means to get it home -- and that's across the Atlantic. But it still felt extremely bad. :-( > (Such is life - I think I will end mine!) Nah, just go on collecting. Get as many machines as you can, every machine acquired is a machine saved from a fate worse than death (i.e. the dump). A. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Tue Apr 8 20:34:24 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: Wanted Systems In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20472868D@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Apr 8, 97 10:12:36 am Message-ID: <199704090134.UAA00276@mastif.ee.nd.edu> > > I can't believe you have Nova 1200's. I used a 1220 in the late 70's in > high school and it was old then. > > Ours actually had a hard drive which was about 36" on a side, covered > with woodgrain vinyl, with a capacity of a MEGABYTE!! > > I might still have the source to my Nova multiuser Star Trek around > someplace. It was so popular it got banned from the system since it > slowed everything down too much. > > Kai > If the source is in something other than assembler, I would be interested in a copy of the Star Trek program. John Ott ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu From danjo at xnet.com Tue Apr 8 21:36:59 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > > Maybe we shouldn't allow posts like > > this!!!! BAWWWWWWWWWW BAWWWWWWWW BAAWWWBAWWWWBAWWWWWW > > I could NEVER afford the shipping. I could probably DRIVE there and > > PICK IT UP but not until summer BAWWWBAWWWWW > > Argh. I know the feeling. There was this post in a.f.c. some time ago > about this PDP-11 with peripherals sitting in the rain and snow, waiting to > be dumped. I felt so bad, it's unbelievable. Now, I wouldn't be able to > maintain a PDP-11. I don't even have the means to get it home -- and that's > across the Atlantic. But it still felt extremely bad. Actually I got all involved in this *hobby* when I started working for Western Electric testing #3 ESS and #4 ESS in - oh 78?? - and had the PRIVILEDGE of walking by the loading dock on the day the crushing - YES - Crushing PDP-8's. There must have been 10 of them. It was the last load of about 50 total. Complete units with tapereaders, neat analog cards and all. It seems the government had just reversed the write-off laws that year and I had to be a "Charity Organization" to get any. One guy was just sitting there with pliers breaking off the card ID's and serial #'s as proof (or I would have gotten a couple) Talk about Dazed and Confused! I almost couldn't talk. Of course, they had just replaced all the PDP-8's with 11's. I managed to squawk out that I WOULD PAY THE TAX DIFFERENCE. but to no avail. *Red Tape* B.S. (I can't believe I still get so PI$$ED OFF ABOUT IT!) Well after that I have managed to save a few items. I still get a kick out of going to larger building and looking thru the trash 8-) but now it's all PeeCee stuff and it is garbage. > > (Such is life - I think I will end mine!) > > Nah, just go on collecting. Get as many machines as you can, every > machine acquired is a machine saved from a fate worse than death (i.e. the > dump). You OBVIOUSLY have NOT met my kids 8-) BC From pcoad at crl.com Wed Apr 9 00:59:50 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > Actually I got all involved in this *hobby* when I started working for > Western Electric testing #3 ESS and #4 ESS in - oh 78?? - and had the > PRIVILEDGE of walking by the loading dock on the day the crushing - YES - > Crushing PDP-8's. There must have been 10 of them. It was the last load > of about 50 total. Complete units with tapereaders, neat analog cards and > all. It seems the government had just reversed the write-off laws that > year and I had to be a "Charity Organization" to get any. One guy was just > sitting there with pliers breaking off the card ID's and serial #'s as > proof (or I would have gotten a couple) Talk about Dazed and Confused! > I almost couldn't talk. Of course, they had just replaced all the PDP-8's > with 11's. I managed to squawk out that I WOULD PAY THE TAX DIFFERENCE. > but to no avail. *Red Tape* B.S. (I can't believe I still get so PI$$ED > OFF ABOUT IT!) > Well after that I have managed to save a few items. I still get a kick > out of going to larger building and looking thru the trash 8-) but now > it's all PeeCee stuff and it is garbage. > This raises the question of how people got into this hobby. Was it a single event or something which happened over time (with or without you being aware of it?) I really started about two years ago. I had a few machines, but they were not a collection. I picked up an Osborne 1 at an auction for a buck. I couldn't believe that nobody else wanted it. A little later I started to pick up machines here and there which were extremely cheap. Before long I had a fairly eclectic collection. I also collect computer books (the older the better) and Infocom games. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 9 07:46:56 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > Actually I got all involved in this *hobby* when I started working for > Western Electric testing #3 ESS and #4 ESS in - oh 78?? - and had the > PRIVILEDGE of walking by the loading dock on the day the crushing - YES - > Crushing PDP-8's. There must have been 10 of them. It was the last load > of about 50 total. (inarticulate noises as the paramedics try to revive me) I think messages like this should be forbidden on this list. :-/ They're just too depressing. Only joking of course, but they're still depressing. > > Nah, just go on collecting. Get as many machines as you can, every > > machine acquired is a machine saved from a fate worse than death (i.e. the > > dump). > > You OBVIOUSLY have NOT met my kids 8-) No, but I *have* met my girlfriend's brothers. Lovely OKI IF-800 with 8" drives sitting about for 15 years in perfect shape, with all software and manuals and things. Then they discover it's a nice toy. You know: let's stick pencils into the drive slots and move them about. Let's take the disks out of their jackets and play. In the end the machine had to stay *outdoors* for *two* years *in the rain* *with* *all* *disks*. It was a nightmare when I got it and started cleaning it. All the software is long gone, of course, and the built-in printer's head assembly is so rusted I can't move it no matter what. But the machine *worked* after cleaning it up. :-) By the way, anyone in this list know about this machine? I'm looking for 8" CP/M boot disks for it, but can't find any (the closest I got was 5.25" ones, but they won't do, unfortunately -- different FORMAT.COM etc). Oh, the _evil_computer_destroyers_ (the grillfiend's brothers) now have a modified Sinclair ZX-81 (with real keyboard) in their hands. Wonder how long *that* will last. Time for another rescue operation, I think. Now. Are you beginning to appreciate your kids? :-) --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 9 18:51:16 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I really started about two years ago. Same here, almost. Actually it started three years ago when someone "sold" me a C64 for the equivalent of 0.30 UKP (an ok price for a C64, I guess), but I didn't pay much attention to it at the time. Two years ago, the large BBS/sort-of-ISP I worked for bogged down by huge Atari vs. Amiga vs. Pc vs. Mac flamewars (then again, who isn't?). The more rational people decided to hold a contest and decide who has the best toy. So they organised an official demo show with judges from the BBS staff and users. I was with the owner and high guru of the system a few weeks before that and we were playing with his TI-99/4A and trying to decide whether his MC-10 was working or not. So we though `why not bring all our old machines to the demo show to give the PeeCee/Amiga folks a demo of what computing was before *they* came along?'. Well, in the end, we managed to gather around 15 machines, including a Kaypro 2 or II, rather rare in Europe, a (dead) Sinclair ZX-80 and other machines. That's when I (subconsciously, probably) got the idea of collecting as many old home micros as possible. The nostalgia trip was immense at the time. :-) Oh, I think that's when it occured to me to create information sheets about the various items at the show -- something listing specs and capabilities, so that the people who thought Computer == {PeeCee,Amiga} found out about the ZX-80's 1k chess program, etc. That idea was implemented as the Machine Room, my old hardware home page. Alexios PS: OBTW, if I remember correctly, the winner of the demo show was the PeeCee, with `Dope'. I'm not into demos, but that thing impressed me. PS2: I think I'm posting material againt the list's charter again. This mail mentions PCs at least three times. *LART* Ouch! *LART* Yow! --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Wed Apr 9 20:22:28 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: Bernoulli Drive Message-ID: <334C40D4.BDB@oboe.calpoly.edu> Our local Goodwill has an old Bernoulli drive. Looks like a dual drive that takes two 10 meg disk (or was it 5 meg?) cartridges that are about 10" square. Includes 1 disk. Anyway if this sounds interesting to someone, I could snag it and ship it for cost. (probably $5 + shipping) Greg From dastar at crl.com Wed Apr 9 11:24:10 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > This raises the question of how people got into this hobby. Was it > a single event or something which happened over time (with or without > you being aware of it?) When I was young, I got my first computer, which was the Aquarius I mentioned before. I sold this along with my Atari 2600 with about 50 games to fund the purchase of my first Apple ][+. I wish I was enlightened back then because I would have found some other way to make the money. After a while I wanted to get an Apple ][e, but I couldn't get myself to sell my ][+. I'd had too much fun with it. So in spite of the bitching from my parents, I bought a ][e and kept my ][+. Which was really cool because now I had two apples and I could have two different things going on each one. It was really handy when I was hacking up code or cracking copy protection and such. Then my high school computer science teacher wanted to sell me his souped-up //e, which I bought, so now I had three apples. He also threw in a Soroc dumb terminal, which I think was what piqued my interested of old stuff. There was this big old teletype terminal in our classroom that I asked if I could have but he had no authority to give it to me (it was never used for anything) so he gave me the terminal instead. Then through some maneuvering I can't remember, I ended up trading with friends and acquired a commodore 64 and a TI-99/4a. These weren't particularly old back then (this was around 1987). I also got a Timex-Sinclair ZX-81 from my brother that he had traded from his friend who built it. Then in around 1989 I acquired some California Computer Systems S-100 CP/M machines. Huge, 30-lbs a piece units. There was a dual 8-inch disk drive unit, then the processor unit. My mom thought I was crazy to be hauling this shit home. She'd always be telling me to sell some of it. But I brought it into my bedroom and set it up and programmed a small adventure game on it. I got this system from a classmate in a community college course I was taking. He gave several away that he rescued from a school he taught at. Later on a couple of the people who got a system decided they didn't want theirs anymore and so they gave them to me. Then one day I was at a swap meet looking for carthridges for a 2600 I had picked up. I found the mother lode. There was this crusty guy selling all sorts of old early- to mid-80s systems like commodores, ataris, colecovisions, etc. I went spastic. After I recovered I went to the guy and offered $5 for each unit he had, and HE GLADLY ACCEPTED! He'd been wanting to get rid of this "junk" forever. So I ended up with about five Vic20s, an Atari 400, an Atari 800, a Commodore CBM (CP/M), a Colecovision, numerous Atari 2600 consoles (of different types), a Timex Sinclair ZX-81, a TRS-80 Color Computer 2, a TRS-80 mini-color computer, some other TRS-80 junk, and miscellaneous joystick controllers and game carts that he threw in. All told I paid him $120 for a trunk load of ol computers and stuff. I was stoked. And the best part is, 95 percent of the stuff worked, even though some of it had been sitting in the rain and sun for years. The day I got them it was raining, and some stuff was wet when I brought it home. But I opened the wet ones up and dried them off and they worked! The only thing that was totally dead was one of the colecovisions. The Commodore CBM and the Color Computer 2 had blown fuses, which are easily replaced (although I have yet to do so). Since then I acquired an Apple Lisa from an old boss, and Apple III from a friend and maybe one or two others that I am forgetting now. I haven't gotten anything new in quite a while but since joining this discussion group I've gotten the bug bad. I'm going to start hitting the flea markets in my area again. > Before long I had a fairly eclectic collection. I also collect computer > books (the older the better) and Infocom games. Me too. I keep old manuals and the like no matter how mundane. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Wed Apr 9 20:45:51 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How did you get started? Message-ID: <199704100145.VAA00229@zephyr.cacm.org> On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Mr. Paul E Coad spake thusly unto us: > This raises the question of how people got into this hobby. Was it > a single event or something which happened over time (with or without > you being aware of it?) Well, I'm not sure whether there was a single event that got me started (other than an offer of my original Nova 1210), but I can honestly state that there was an event that made me get serious about the preservation of older machines. That event was my missing the acquisition of a PDP-15 by about a half-hour in 1987. I had expressed an interest in the machine, and was told that it was going to scrap _very soon_, so I should grab what I wanted. I was going to try and make arrangements to get the machine picked up (it was fully configured and quite large) and get the machine home. I arrived (hurriedly) to do an initial disassembly and triage on the system, only to find that the bone man had come earler in the hour, and all that was left of the system was an empty space where it once was. I knew then that -15s weren't very common, and when I realised that the count had just dropped by one, I was fairly beside myself. Other than that anecdote, I've been collecting for about 10 years or so; my stash is fairly well focussed on minicomputers, although I do have the odd micro here and there. Minicomputers are where I desire to keep my energies, especially those of DG manufacture. With DG, at its' peak, being only 1/5 the size of DEC those machines are pretty hard to come by nowadays. Any leads, of course, would be vastly appreciated. :-) While I'm greatly pleased that folks are preserving microcomputers, I've never felt a "bond" to that particular realm of design. I like things like time-states, core memory, and pulse-logic. I guess that makes me an "old fart". ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From william at ans.net Wed Apr 9 22:19:46 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704100145.VAA00229@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: <199704100319.AA17620@interlock.ans.net> > > This raises the question of how people got into this hobby. Was it > > a single event or something which happened over time (with or without > > you being aware of it?) I first ran into several boxes of DEC Flip-Chip modules at a flea market (general, not a ham/computer fest). I purchased the lot, hoping to scrap them. I never did part them out, but rather stuck them on a shelf inserted into the supplied backplane (it looked neat, with all of the green and magenta handles). I then ran into the DEC bible, _Computer Architecture_, and decided I needed to get into this stuff. A few hamfests later, while picking thru some LSI-11 boards, a man offered me an old DEC machine for $5. Of course I bought it. That PDP-8/s was my first machine (and my first adventure in moving a big rack). Other machines, mostly micros and DEC stuff, was aquired piece by piece. Nearly all were purchased at hamfests, although my other monsters came from my old school and my employer. The collection also got a boost when my first contact (the guy with the 8/s), called and said he had found more computer stuff for me. Thinking it was stuff for the PDP-8/s, I told him to come over. He did, and left me with my front yard covered with stuff from the dawn of the microcomputer era (nearly all M68 based - SWTPC, Sphere, etc.). I still do not know exactly what I have. I started sorting thew miles of paper tape (DEC PDP-8/Interdata/M68/misc.), but am still swamped. I then lost interest, and my machines sat for a few years (nothing scrapped, as I knew it deserved better). It was you lot that drew me back in! > That event was my missing the acquisition of a PDP-15 by about a > half-hour in 1987. Does anyone know how many of the 18-bitters were produced, and how many survive? > Any leads, of course, would be vastly > appreciated. :-) Maybe I am stating the obvious, but if anyone knows of any old minis slated for the scrap yard, post it on the list! The loss of that PDP-15 is tragic, as they are so rare, and perhaps in the future can be avoided. Micros, being small and nearly worthless to the scrapmen, survive much better. William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Apr 10 09:55:52 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704100145.VAA00229@zephyr.cacm.org>; from "Carl R. Friend" at Apr 9, 97 9:45 pm Message-ID: <199704100855.11701@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > This raises the question of how people got into this hobby. Was it > > a single event or something which happened over time (with or without > > you being aware of it?) > > Well, I'm not sure whether there was a single event that got me > started (other than an offer of my original Nova 1210), but I can > honestly state that there was an event that made me get serious about > the preservation of older machines. Well, I'd collected the odd machine before I seriously started, but it was a single event that made me realise that something had to be done. It happened like this. I was building my own Z-80 based microcomputer back in 1986, and needed a keyboard. Now, back then, you couldn't pick up a PC-clone keyboard for a few pounds in any PC shop, so when I saw an advert in the back of a magazine ('Electronics and Wireless World', I think) for a factory sale where encoded keyboards were being sold for \pounds 4.00, I became interested. Even better, said sale was in Cambridge, where I was living at the time. I went along (and, indeed, bought a keyboard). I noticed a Philips P850 minicomputer being sold as scrap metal for \pounds 25.00. Now, I knew nothing about the machine, but it looked _beautiful_, with a toggle-switch front panel, etc. There were even some I/O boards and manuals with it. So I bought it, and somehow got it home. I spend the afternoon looking at it (2K words core memory, a CPU built from TTL on 5 boards, a pair of large linear PSUs, etc) and reading the manuals. I toggled in a trivial program to add 2 numbers. It ran. I was hooked. This is what computing should be like. I talked to some friends about this machine, and realised a few things : 1) The P850 seemed to be rare - nobody had ever heard of it. 2) Something had to be done - and soon - since otherwise machines would be lost for ever. 3) Somebody had to do it. Museums (at that time) were preserving things like the Pilot ACE, but weren't bothering with minis and micros 4) That somebody was going to be me. I proposed collecting as much computer hardware (machines, peripherals, manuals, boards, whatever) as I could - stuff that would otherwise have been lost. I'd restore it, get it working, learn from it, etc. 5) A few other people thought likewise. We got together, and have never looked back. Since then I've rescued a large number of other machines (micros, minis, handhelds, etc), but I'll never forget the day when I got my P850. > While I'm greatly pleased that folks are preserving microcomputers, > I've never felt a "bond" to that particular realm of design. I like > things like time-states, core memory, and pulse-logic. I guess that > makes me an "old fart". Ditto. I have micros, I use micros, and heck, I even restore micros, but given the choice I'll pick a multi-chip CPU any day. Hand-stepping microcode is great fun... BTW, I have nothing made by DG, so if anyone knows of one being given away in the UK (or sold for a reasonable amount), please get in touch. > | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From classicjr at juno.com Thu Apr 10 09:42:58 1997 From: classicjr at juno.com (Jeffrey G. Rottman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: Osborne withdrawal ! References: <199704090702.AAA00484@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19970410.064317.2199.0.classicjr@juno.com> Help! I was promised an Osborne Executive a couple of weeks ago and was getting psyched up to get it for nothing other than the shipping costs, then at the last minute the guy said his wife wanted him to keep it. Anyone else have an Osborne they can part with? I have never owned one and would love to get it and pamper it. Any model will do, just would like it to be in good working order and in good physical shape. Any diskettes would be appreciated also. Thanks!! Jeff R. in Texas rottman@juno.com From dastar at crl.com Thu Apr 10 14:30:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704100145.VAA00229@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > While I'm greatly pleased that folks are preserving microcomputers, > I've never felt a "bond" to that particular realm of design. I like > things like time-states, core memory, and pulse-logic. I guess that > makes me an "old fart". You probably have space to burn. As it is my fiance has a hard time with my hobby. Just wait until I find my first mainframe and try to store it in the garage. To say the least I'll run into some opposition. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Apr 10 20:50:52 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 10, 97 12:30 (noon) Message-ID: <199704101950.22731@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > > > While I'm greatly pleased that folks are preserving microcomputers, > > I've never felt a "bond" to that particular realm of design. I like > > things like time-states, core memory, and pulse-logic. I guess that > > makes me an "old fart". > > You probably have space to burn. As it is my fiance has a hard time with > my hobby. Just wait until I find my first mainframe and try to store it > in the garage. To say the least I'll run into some opposition. Well, I've not got a mainframe _yet_, and I have no idea where I'd put one if I did... BUT, a minicomputer doesn't take up that much more floor area than a micro. A 6' rack (say something like a DEC H960) takes up about the same area as a PC + printer (actually a bit less), and holds a CPU and a few drives. OK, so if most of your collection is packed away in cupboards, then storing a mini is a bit harder, but they're not as big as some people think. In general, minicomputer boxes (the bits that slot into the rack) are a lot easier to store than micros, even without the rack. They stack up in the corner of a room quite easily - they're mostly flat-topped boxes, and are strong enough to stack, unlike micros, which (IMHO) are often impossible to store, especially the ones with built-in keyboards which simply refuse to stack :-) Of course convincing your SO that a 6' rack is a perfectly normal item of furniture is left as an exercise.... > > > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Apr 10 14:56:31 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 10, 97 12:30:20 pm Message-ID: <199704101956.NAA03233@calico.litterbox.com> I guess I don't collect so much as use. I'm getting into "trailing edge" computing (ie old 8 and 16 bit computers) because they solve problems for me as well as making me smile and remember the good old days. As an example, my father has been using a laser 128 (apple2e clone) since it was new to do his word processing. I am currently putting him together an apple2gs system so he can still do his word processing as well as having a graphical web browser, and a system fast enough to support a modern modem so I can get him on the net. He does research in geniology, so this will be valuable to him. Also, I have an hplx200 palmtop. it is essentially an 8088 xt in a package the size of two cassette tape boxes end to end. I find myself using software from the mid to late 80s constantly to live in its small memory map and CGA screen. It also does warm the cockles of my heart that some brilliant hack that someone came up with a decade ago to work within the hardware constraints of the day and do something insanely useful - will STILL be useful to me. Moreso because if it's a DOS thing I can carry the computer in my pocket. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From william at ans.net Thu Apr 10 14:58:34 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704101950.22731@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199704101958.AA20623@interlock.ans.net> > Of course convincing your SO that a 6' rack is a perfectly normal item of > furniture is left as an exercise.... I know a guy that has a Minuteman guidance computer as a coffee table - apparently it was included in the marriage contract. William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Apr 10 21:04:59 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704101956.NAA03233@calico.litterbox.com>; from "Jim" at Apr 10, 97 1:56 pm Message-ID: <199704102004.23040@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > I guess I don't collect so much as use. I'm getting into "trailing edge" I wonder how many others on this list don't even own a non-classic computer? I think all the machines I use would count, even the much-hacked AT I use for most general computing these days still has the original IBM motherboard (although with a 486 kludge-board in place of the 80286) and I/O cards built from row upon row of TTL chips My IBM XT (true-blue) runs my EPROM programmer, GAL programmer, cable tester, I2C tester, etc. My PC/AT runs my PIC programmer, and does a bit of word processing. For real programming I have a PDP8 on my desk (:-)), a PDP11 in a 6' rack in the corner, and a PERQ alongside it. Then there are plenty of other machines (CP/M, OS9, etc) that I can get out and set up in a couple of minutes when I want to use them. If I was given the latest Pentium PC, with all the current options (I'm so old-fashioned, I have no idea what is current in the PC line any more ;-)), I'd probably sell it and take the money to the next radio rally (Hamfest) and buy all the classic computers, test equipments and boatanchor radios that I could find. Modern PCs are so badly built and documented that quite simply I don't want one. The older machines are still quite capable of doing useful work, and I see no reason not to use them. > It also does warm the cockles of my heart that some brilliant hack that someone > came up with a decade ago to work within the hardware constraints of the day > and do something insanely useful - will STILL be useful to me. Moreso because > if it's a DOS thing I can carry the computer in my pocket. When I look at the software (and hardware) of 10-15 years ago, I realise how far _down_ we've gone since then. > Jim Strickland -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Apr 10 15:39:30 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How did you get started? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2047D637D@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | From: A.R. Duell[SMTP:ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk] | I wonder how many others on this list don't even own a non-classic | computer? Depends on how you define "computer". Even my surround sound processor has a 80 MHz 40 MIPS 24-bit DSP with more than 64K of RAM on-chip. Most of our cars have sophisticated engine management computers. I mentioned to my wife the other day that my Pentium Pro has more transistors (5.5M) than the entire rest of my antique machine collection and other household items put together, _including_ her Pentium machine (3.1M). Even subtracting the Pentium chip, the Pro still has enough transistors to make about 83 PC-XT's and who knows how many Altairs. On the other hand, we all still have a bunch of Z80's even if we don't collect classics. Zilog has a huge family of Z80 processors for IR remotes, keyboard controllers, IDE hard drives, PCMCIA, televisions/cable boxes, voice memo units, serial ports, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the average American owned half a dozen Z80's. Kai From jeffh at eleventh.com Thu Apr 10 06:31:46 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >When I look at the software (and hardware) of 10-15 years ago, I realise >how far _down_ we've gone since then. Very well put Jim! I know my Amiga 3000, which is my everyday system, doesn't fit into the realm of this group (being roughly 6 years old), but it is far superior to modern systems when it comes to usability and efficiency. That is one of the reasons I appreciate the early micros so much....it's amazing what was done by programmers and such in such tight constraints. Take for example the Atari 800...this is a 2mhz 6502 cpu with 48k RAM and a full Basic, with full-screen editing, in an 8k ROM. This system amazes me at the animations and such I've seen on it at times. It's version of Frogger is great, and I typed in a Basic program from 'Compute!' that displayed the Atari logo with 128 colors onscreen at once. I think modern day systems could still learn quite a few things from the earlier ones. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Apr 10 21:45:33 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2047D637D@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>; from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Apr 10, 97 1:39 pm Message-ID: <199704102045.24869@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > | From: A.R. Duell[SMTP:ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk] > | I wonder how many others on this list don't even own a non-classic > | computer? > > Depends on how you define "computer". Even my surround sound processor > has a 80 MHz 40 MIPS 24-bit DSP with more than 64K of RAM on-chip. Most > of our cars have sophisticated engine management computers. Well, I don't drive (yet), but when I do, I'll make darn sure there's nothing in my car that's electronic, other than possibly a (valved/tube) radio!. As I keep on pointing out to friends "I'll carry a VOM in the boot (trunk), but I'm not carrying the 'scope and logic analyser as well!" In fact, I'll stand by my original statement. I don't own a non-classic computer other than possibly my pocket calculator, which is 6 years old, and has a Saturn CPU in it. > Kai -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu Apr 10 21:56:07 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:13 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: ; from "hellige" at Apr 10, 97 4:31 pm Message-ID: <199704102056.25506@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On 11-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > > >When I look at the software (and hardware) of 10-15 years ago, I realise > >how far _down_ we've gone since then. > > Very well put Jim! I know my Amiga 3000, which is my everyday system, Err, didn't I say that (or at least something very like it)? > doesn't fit into the realm of this group (being roughly 6 years old), but it > is far superior to modern systems when it comes to usability and efficiency. Look at the PERQ (OK, so it's my favourite machine, but for a good reason - it's darn well designed). In 1979 it had a bit-blitter that was capable of doing 10 full-screen updates every second. The PC didn't get something like that for a good few years. Or look at the PDP11's Unibus (or Q-bus). It's elegant. It works. And there are no IRQ or DMA conflicts. The PC bus is a kludge from start to finish. If you read the PC/AT TechRef (I have), you'll find there is an official way to share IRQ lines in a PC/AT - which IBM then ignored when writing the BIOS. And that's what became the standard. I remember demonstrating my Tandy CoCo-3 in 1988 to some PC-goon or other. He had a 386 PC running MS-DOS. I had a 2 mHz 6809 running OS-9. He was totally amazed that 'that little video game' could have several programs running at once, displaying their output in different windows (something his PC didn't do at that time), and that I could even log on to my machine from a remote terminal. > That is one of the reasons I appreciate the early micros so much....it's > amazing what was done by programmers and such in such tight constraints. Take > for example the Atari 800...this is a 2mhz 6502 cpu with 48k RAM and a full > Basic, with full-screen editing, in an 8k ROM. This system amazes me at the > animations and such I've seen on it at times. It's version of Frogger is > great, and I typed in a Basic program from 'Compute!' that displayed the Atari > logo with 128 colors onscreen at once. I think modern day systems could still > learn quite a few things from the earlier ones. I don't play computer games that much, but IMHO the games from 10-15 years ago are much more fun than the modern ones. OK, so now we have 3D rendered graphics, real sound effects, but no 'plot' - nothing to do except blast everything in sight. I personally prefer a good text-only adventure with some logic behind it, and no sound. Maybe I'm just totally unusual... > > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Apr 10 16:09:18 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970410170918.00886df0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, hellige said: >On 11-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > >>When I look at the software (and hardware) of 10-15 years ago, I realise >>how far _down_ we've gone since then. Here, Here! >Take >for example the Atari 800...this is a 2mhz 6502 cpu with 48k RAM and a full >Basic, with full-screen editing, in an 8k ROM. Ummm... just a nitpicker's note: The Full-screen editor & other stuff were in 10K Rom, with the Basic in another 8K Rom, totalling 18K. Of course, there were 3rd party upgrade boards that would up the memory to 256K to be used as a Ram drive or as a printer buffer... How many people you know nowadays who are hacking their 486/Pentium machines to be able to use over 5x more memory than it's supposed to??? I love geezers! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Everyone complained to me to change my .sig, Programmer, NorthernWay | but no-one could recommend something better. zmerch@northernway.net | So you'll have to put up with this *junk* | until I find some new wisdom to share. From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Apr 10 16:18:57 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704102056.25506@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970410171857.00970b80@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: >Or look at the PDP11's Unibus (or Q-bus). It's elegant. It works. And >there are no IRQ or DMA conflicts. The PC bus is a kludge from start to >finish. If you read the PC/AT TechRef (I have), you'll find there is an >official way to share IRQ lines in a PC/AT - which IBM then ignored when >writing the BIOS. And that's what became the standard. I can expect a kludge from a hacker... because even if it's weird, it works when it's not supposed to. That takes a lot of imagination. A kludge of this magnitude from the number of people assigned to design the expensive IBM machines of that day is a crime! >I remember demonstrating my Tandy CoCo-3 in 1988 to some PC-goon or >other. He had a 386 PC running MS-DOS. I had a 2 mHz 6809 running OS-9. He >was totally amazed that 'that little video game' could have several >programs running at once, displaying their output in different windows >(something his PC didn't do at that time), and that I could even log on to >my machine from a remote terminal. Thumbs up everywhere! I have one (and still use it at least weekly) and despite it's (now I'm getting technical for the sake of conversation) 1.78 Mhz clock speed, I pitted it against a True-blue IBM 286-10 AT machine in several benchmarks (which I wrote) which included number & string sorting, prime number creation and getting the factors of a number and..... WON! People don't realize that the Intel x86 chips are *highly* inefficient, especially in their addressing and branching instructions, which gave my CoCo3 a speed advantage not equaled until I bought my 386SX16... even then it was a close race, but I couldn't get good games for my CoCo anymore... So whenever I wanted to play, I had VGA. When I wanted to work, gimme OS-9 any day! Keep on CoCoing! Roger "Merch" Merchberger > >> That is one of the reasons I appreciate the early micros so much....it's >> amazing what was done by programmers and such in such tight constraints. Take >> for example the Atari 800...this is a 2mhz 6502 cpu with 48k RAM and a full >> Basic, with full-screen editing, in an 8k ROM. This system amazes me at the >> animations and such I've seen on it at times. It's version of Frogger is >> great, and I typed in a Basic program from 'Compute!' that displayed the Atari >> logo with 128 colors onscreen at once. I think modern day systems could still >> learn quite a few things from the earlier ones. > >I don't play computer games that much, but IMHO the games from 10-15 years >ago are much more fun than the modern ones. OK, so now we have 3D rendered >graphics, real sound effects, but no 'plot' - nothing to do except blast >everything in sight. I personally prefer a good text-only adventure with >some logic behind it, and no sound. > >Maybe I'm just totally unusual... > > >> >> Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com > > >-- >-tony >ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk >The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill > > -- Roger Merchberger | Everyone complained to me to change my .sig, Programmer, NorthernWay | but no-one could recommend something better. zmerch@northernway.net | So you'll have to put up with this *junk* | until I find some new wisdom to share. From idavis at comland.com Thu Apr 10 16:37:04 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: Just getting started. Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970410213704.008f212c@mail.comland.com > Speaking of getting started, my next door neighbor who is retired and in his sixties and I were talking the other day, and I mentioned that I would kill to be retired. He asked me just what I would do with my time. I mentioned that I would probably spend every waking moment on my atari writing programs. He looked interested and wanted to go take a look. He has never owned a computer, and can't afford an expensive pc, and what I showed him on my atari just blew him away. He now wants to buy an atari and get started in the world of computers. I am now on the active alert for an atari system for him. It's neat to see someone that hasn't ever owned a computer get interested especially on one of the older computers. He was even happy about the fact that you could connect it to a tv, and not have to shell out hundreds of dollars for a monitor that you can't use on anything but the computer. I think these classic computers are great to learn on and now they can be picked up for a very reasonable price. Of course, I miss being able to go down to the local store and pick up what I needed, but there are things still out there, it just takes a little longer to find. I got started when I went to visit my uncle in california in 1981 or 82. He had an atari 800, and after playing a few games, I asked him how you make a game. He pulled a sheet of paper out of the basic manual, and told me to type this in exactly as it is printed. I did, and two hours later, I had an american flag on the screen. I couldn't decide whether you just type and type and whatever comes up, you just enjoy it, or if these people actually knew what they were doing. Before I had even received my atari, I had magazines laying around, and had just about figured out how to program before I had even gotten the machine. I bet I really pissed off that u.p.s. guy stopping him every day asking if I had a package. That started my career in computers, and now I program for a living. I still own my atari, and use it often. I didn't start as a classic collector, I started as a classic user, but through time I have ended up as a classic collector. If anyone comes across an atari, or atari equipment that they don't want, I will be more than happy to give it a good working home. To me it feels like stepping into a time machine and rolling back the clock to my high school years to be able to sit down and use my old machines. Of course, back then I didn't have any bills, and had 3 months off in the summer. Maybe that's why I keep using my atari. Isaac Davis : Doing the bull dance. idavis@comland.com : Feeling the flow. indavis@juno.com : Working it. Working it. From lists at phx6.phxmedia.com Thu Apr 10 19:49:13 1997 From: lists at phx6.phxmedia.com (Lists at phxmedia) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: Just getting started. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970410213704.008f212c@mail.comland.com > from "Isaac Davis" at Apr 10, 97 04:37:04 pm Message-ID: <199704110049.RAA17232@phx6.phxmedia.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 633 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970410/644b76c5/attachment-0001.ksh From jeffh at eleventh.com Thu Apr 10 10:23:26 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >I remember demonstrating my Tandy CoCo-3 in 1988 to some PC-goon or >other. He had a 386 PC running MS-DOS. I had a 2 mHz 6809 running OS-9. He >was totally amazed that 'that little video game' could have several >programs running at once, displaying their output in different windows >(something his PC didn't do at that time), and that I could even log on to >my machine from a remote terminal. I still want to find a disk system for my CoCo-3 so that I can run OS-9 on it. OS-9 is still amazing to this day, which is why any number of companies use it for the base OS for cutting edge stuff such as set-top boxes for the TV. Until I saw it, I would've never thought you could put a Unix-like OS witch was multitasking and multiuser on a 128k 8bit machine! I've heard mention of there being a version that runs on the Commodore 128 as well, but haven't been able to find anything out about it. >I don't play computer games that much, but IMHO the games from 10-15 years >ago are much more fun than the modern ones. OK, so now we have 3D rendered >graphics, real sound effects, but no 'plot' - nothing to do except blast >everything in sight. I personally prefer a good text-only adventure with >some logic behind it, and no sound. I agree. The excitement just isn't there, even though the technology is years ahead in graphics and sound. About the only game I've enjoyed recently was a 3d bitmapped update of 'Asteroids' on the Mac, which I play on my Amiga 3000 under emulation. I'm also a big fan of INFOCOM's text adventure games, as well as the Basic 'Star Trek' game that seems to have been ported to nearly every platform known. I have a number of original disks for my Atari and Commodore's that have the INFOCOM games on them. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Thu Apr 10 10:31:47 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >The Full-screen editor & other stuff were in 10K Rom, with the Basic in >another 8K Rom, totalling 18K. I wasn't aware that the editor for Basic was in the OS Rom...I stand corrected. Still, to think that the game cartridges either were confined to the 8k space or they somehow bankswitched to allow larger programs, I find interesting. >Of course, there were 3rd party upgrade boards that would up the memory to >256K to be used as a Ram drive or as a printer buffer... How many people >you know nowadays who are hacking their 486/Pentium machines to be able to >use over 5x more memory than it's supposed to??? A friend of mine had his Atari 800 upgraded to 128k I believe. It required a bit of soldering on his part to incorporate the bankswitching scheme the manufacturer used. He also had a 'Happy' chip and any number of other things added to it as well, having bought the machine new in the early 80's and continued to use it for quite a few years. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Thu Apr 10 10:46:16 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well I went out yet again today and found a really nice IBM 5155 Portable PC at the local Salvation Army thrift store. I picked it up and brought it home, and it works like a champ! The only DOS I had for it though was either CoronaDOS 1.25 or 2.11, and both booted fine on it, though I can't get either CP/M-86 or Concurrent CP/M to boot on it. This is an interesting machine considering it has the full 8 expansion slots in the rear! I think it will make a nice addition to the Osbourne and Kaypro portables I already have, though I hadn't planned on adding a PC to the collection at all. Now all I have to do to round out the portables is find a Commodore SX-64 some day for a good price. BTW, the IBM has a whopping 256k of RAM. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From dastar at crl.com Thu Apr 10 21:15:30 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704101950.22731@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > In general, minicomputer boxes (the bits that slot into the rack) are a > lot easier to store than micros, even without the rack. They stack up in > the corner of a room quite easily - they're mostly flat-topped boxes, and > are strong enough to stack, unlike micros, which (IMHO) are often > impossible to store, especially the ones with built-in keyboards which > simply refuse to stack :-) I know well of what you speak. I have to alternate my console systems (ie. one right-side up and the other on top of it top-side down) to get any kind of efficient storage going. On the other hand, the CP/M mini's that I have are all flat-top steel boxes that stack quite well. The last weekend I finished up on a rugged shelf I built from 2x4s and plywood. It has 4 shelves (top included) each with a surface area of abour 4' x 5' and holds my old computer collection nicely. Its a hell of a lot nicer than having everything stacked along side my pool table. Now I can play pool again. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From transit at primenet.com Thu Apr 10 23:57:36 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How did I get started . . . I remember playing around with TRS-80's in school, and Apples, CoCo's and Vic's/C64's in computer stores and other places, but I had bought a TI 99/4A. Remember, this was the early-mid 80's, when most of these machines would cost you at least $400 or so. At those prices, you became quite the advocate for what you had bought: you wanted to defend your investment . . . Fast forward to late 1990. I'm standing in a flea market in Southern California, looking around for a packet radio (special modem used in ham radio) when I see someone selling a Radio Shack Color Computer for $10. Now, the Color Computer has a special place in my heart because that's the computer I learned to program on (I spent far too much time in my highschool days, hanging around Radio Shack, playing with this machine!) Of course, that machine cost around $600 back in early 1981 . . .and now I can have it for $10? I snapped it up, took it home, hooked it up to the TV, and enjoyed the nostalgia rush. I even loaded up a cassette full of old BASIC programs I had written . . . During the next few months, I bought an Atari 800, a BBC Model B, an Aquarius (was really given to me free!), a NEC 6001, a Franklin Ace Apple Clone (needed it to run my Alphasyntauri music synthesizer, which I also got at the flea market), and eventually, a Commodore 128 (never wanted a 64, BASIC was too minimal . ..) This was in addition to the TI 99/4A, the Apple IIe, and the Amiga 1000 that I also obtained new. I still have all of these machines, and currently have the TI, the Amiga and the Alphasyntauri connected to a mixer, for electronic music projects. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From transit at primenet.com Fri Apr 11 00:00:18 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, and I forgot my two XT-class PC clones. One's a "no-name" brand, and one's the much ballyhooed "Leading Edge D". (That Leading Edge is responsible, in part, for getting me my current job, I strongly believe that!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pcoad at crl.com Fri Apr 11 03:24:34 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704100145.VAA00229@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote something like: > While I'm greatly pleased that folks are preserving microcomputers, > I've never felt a "bond" to that particular realm of design. I like > things like time-states, core memory, and pulse-logic. I guess that > makes me an "old fart". > I have a lot of respect for people who preserve minis and mainframes. Workstations (Sun's in particular) and 70s and 80's micros are what grab me since they are what I have used most. I would prefer to collect workstations[1], Unix boxen, and machines which I have used in the past. But, fate seems to want me to collect portable (or in most cases schlepable) CP/M machines. Is this a generational thing? My first computer exposure what to a mainframe in the late 70's, but my first computer was an 80's micro. Are people in the 40+ age group more likely to have fond memories of minis? I may not be an "old fart", but seening today's kids, sometimes I feel like one. (Nintendo?, why in my day we had to type in our games on membrane keyboards. It took hours to type them in. We stored programs on cassette tape, and we liked it...) [1] There are a good number of Sun 3's around. Unfortunately they seem to always be just the cpu. If anyone in the silicon valley area (or anywhere near there) would like to trade an old Sun for an Atari 1040ST with about 40lbs of accessories, let me know. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Old fart in training. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri Apr 11 09:43:21 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970410171857.00970b80@mail.northernway.net>; from "Roger Merchberger" at Apr 10, 97 5:18 pm Message-ID: <199704110843.15794@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > >Or look at the PDP11's Unibus (or Q-bus). It's elegant. It works. And > >there are no IRQ or DMA conflicts. The PC bus is a kludge from start to > >finish. If you read the PC/AT TechRef (I have), you'll find there is an > >official way to share IRQ lines in a PC/AT - which IBM then ignored when > >writing the BIOS. And that's what became the standard. > > I can expect a kludge from a hacker... because even if it's weird, it works > when it's not supposed to. That takes a lot of imagination. Hmmm... Working when it's not supposed to is not a kludge. It's plain good design IMHO. In other words, a good design should do the right thing under all circumstances. > > A kludge of this magnitude from the number of people assigned to design the > expensive IBM machines of that day is a crime! The point is that the IBM ISA bus doesn't _ever_ do the right thing. If there were 2 ways to do something, then they picked the wrong one. It's amazingly bad. [CoCo3] > Thumbs up everywhere! I have one (and still use it at least weekly) and > despite it's (now I'm getting technical for the sake of conversation) 1.78 I liked the design so much that I shipped one over here from the States. I ordered the service manual first (One nice thing about Tandy machines was that the service manuals were always available), read it, and ordered the machine. Tandy never sold the CoCo 3 in the UK, for all they'd designed a PAL video version, according to the manual > Mhz clock speed, I pitted it against a True-blue IBM 286-10 AT machine in Which true-blue machine was a 10MHz 80286? > several benchmarks (which I wrote) which included number & string sorting, > prime number creation and getting the factors of a number and..... WON! > People don't realize that the Intel x86 chips are *highly* inefficient, > especially in their addressing and branching instructions, which gave my Indeed. I once read the data sheets on (I think) the 80486, and was amazed by the fact that some quite simple instructions took 60+ clock cycles. It appeared that either Intel couldn't design a CPU, or were shoving the clock rate up (marketing?) but taking so many cycles to do anything that the real speed was very low. > Roger Merchberger | Everyone complained to me to change my .sig, -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri Apr 11 09:48:51 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: ; from "hellige" at Apr 10, 97 8:23 pm Message-ID: <199704110848.15891@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I still want to find a disk system for my CoCo-3 so that I can run OS-9 on I assume you realise that a CoCo2 disk drive + controller will work. That's what I currently use. The very first CoCo disk controller needed a -12V line for the main controller chip (1793?), and won't work in later CoCo's unless you add an external PSU. This is possible, though. > it. OS-9 is still amazing to this day, which is why any number of companies > use it for the base OS for cutting edge stuff such as set-top boxes for the > TV. Until I saw it, I would've never thought you could put a Unix-like OS > witch was multitasking and multiuser on a 128k 8bit machine! I've heard Actually, you can run OS-9 level 1 in 64K. A CoCo 2 will do it (although the 32*16 text display, upper case only, makes programming a pain!). OS-9 level 2 needs an MMU (the GIME chip on the CoCo3 gives you that), and probably 128K. > mention of there being a version that runs on the Commodore 128 as well, but > haven't been able to find anything out about it. There may be Unix-like OS's for the Commodore 128, but they won't (AFAIK) be OS-9. OS-9 uses some neat features of the 6809 chip, like the ability to write truely position-independant code (the 6809 has relative subroutine calls, and PC-relative addressing for data, for example). > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri Apr 11 09:59:33 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: ; from "hellige" at Apr 10, 97 8:46 pm Message-ID: <199704110859.15992@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Well I went out yet again today and found a really nice IBM 5155 Portable > PC at the local Salvation Army thrift store. I picked it up and brought it In case you've not spotted it, most of that machine is built from standard IBM parts. The motherboard in that machine is a standard XT one. The video card is a standard IBM CGA card (although the monitor is monochrome, and plugs into the modulator connector), and the floppy controller is the standard PC/XT one What is different is the PSU (different output cables and box, otherwise pretty standard), the drives (half-height, or as IBM call them 'slimline drives'), and the monitor. The latter seems to be a Zenith composite video monitor. Schematics for everything but the PSU are in the appropriate TechRefs (PC/XT and Portable Techref for the motherboard and keyboard, Options and Adapters TechRef for everything else). > good price. BTW, the IBM has a whopping 256k of RAM. If you want 640K without wasting a slot, here's what to do : Remove the motherboard (Yes, it's a pain to do so - you have to remove the drives first to get at one of the screws!) Remove banks 0 and 1 of RAM chips and replace them with 41256 (or equivalent) 256Kbit chips. Leave the 64K chips in banks 2 and 3. All the rams face the same way. Put a 74F158 (or 157) in the empty 16 pin socket at the front edge of the board. A slower chip (like a 74LS158) may also work - I will have to check. This chip faces the same way as the surrounding chips. Solder a jumper between pads E1 and E2 at the right edge of the board Reassemble and enjoy 640K :-) This is an official IBM mod IMHO. My TechRef shows schematics for both versions of the board. > > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From chris at thanatos.yawc.net Thu Apr 10 09:13:50 1997 From: chris at thanatos.yawc.net (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704110843.15794@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <3.0.1.32.19970410171857.00970b80@mail.northernway.net>; from "Roger Merchberger" at Apr 10, 97 5:18 pm Message-ID: <199704111313.OAA15354@thanatos.yawc.net> > > Mhz clock speed, I pitted it against a True-blue IBM 286-10 AT machine in > > Which true-blue machine was a 10MHz 80286? PS/2 50 and 50z IIRC had 10Mhz 286s. - /-------------------------------------------------------------------\ | The Lost One, Thanatos admin and all round good egg | You can't | | Contact Thanatos BBS on *http://thanatos.yawc.net, | fool me. | | *ftp://thanatos.yawc.net or | There ain't | | *telnet://thanatos.yawc.net | no Sanity | | | Clause! | \-------------------------------------------------------------------/ From kevan at motiv.co.uk Fri Apr 11 08:58:15 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704111358.OAA20633@cream.motiv.co.uk> In message you write: > > Is this a generational thing? My first computer exposure what to a > mainframe in the late 70's, but my first computer was an 80's micro. > Are people in the 40+ age group more likely to have fond memories > of minis? > I think there will be a strong corrolation here. I started my computing on my older brothers ZX80, I was 13 at the time. Thus I was brought up on the home computer boom of the early eighties. These are the machines I love to collect. Now, for me, the best machines are the ones that were the complete failures. I also like collecting Unix workstations because I have been programming on Unix platforms for my entire working career. From what I remember I think the desire to get a useable Unix machine at home (couldn 't afford a PC to run Linux) is what got me started collecting. I have got some PDP kit, but only because I couldn't see it go into a skip, and the possibility that I may be able to get an early version on Unix running on them. But as hardware goes they don't hold any nostalgic interest for me. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Fri Apr 11 09:58:50 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers Message-ID: <199704111458.AA17586@bs014.swec.com> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:58:15 +0100, Kevan is rumoured to have said: > [On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 01:24:34, PEC wrote:] > > Is this a generational thing? My first computer exposure what to a > > mainframe in the late 70's, but my first computer was an 80's micro. > > Are people in the 40+ age group more likely to have fond memories > > of minis? > > I think there will be a strong corrolation here. Oh come on, guys. I'm not _that_ old :-) (36). One of the reasons that I cherish the minicomputer architectures is, admittedly, nostalgia, but the other reasons include the fact that they're very servicable (frequently with off-the-shelf components) and they provide a wonder tactile sense of the essence of computing. Few things compare to hand-assembling programs, entering them in binary via a front panel, and having them work. Also, the average minicomputer is simple enough to understand its' inner workings at a gate level; this makes minis admirable teaching tools. > I started my computing on my older brothers ZX80, I was 13 at the > time. Thus I was brought up on the home computer boom of the early > eighties. I was a bit of a "late bloomer" when it comes to computing. I was always interested in the machines, all the way from early childhood, and was lucky enough to have relatives with contacts at MIT and Harvard. I got to see some wonderful stuff then (even played Space- war on Harvard's PDP-1!) but never got to do any programming until my second year of secondary school in the late '70s. The first machine I programmed on was the Nova 840 I have in my collection now. The machine I "cut teeth" on in a hardware sense was an Inter- data Model 3, in my third year of ss. Although I bought a VIC-20 (for the princely sum of (US)$300) in 1980 (?), I never really "took to" the micro- architectures (it might also have been that they were so _slow_ compared to the PDP- 10s I was working on at the time). I think I still have the VIC around someplace. Cheers. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From transit at primenet.com Fri Apr 11 10:12:54 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: Coco disk controller (was: Re: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: <199704110848.15891@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > I still want to find a disk system for my CoCo-3 so that I can run OS-9 on > > I assume you realise that a CoCo2 disk drive + controller will work. > That's what I currently use. > > The very first CoCo disk controller needed a -12V line for the main > controller chip (1793?), and won't work in later CoCo's unless you add an > external PSU. This is possible, though. I remember getting one of these earlier disk controllers, and running a wire from the disk drive's 12V power supply to one of the pins on the controller cartridge. (I still have this, and can dig-it-out if needed . ..) From lists at phx6.phxmedia.com Fri Apr 11 12:52:07 1997 From: lists at phx6.phxmedia.com (Miscellaneous Lists) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: References: <199704100145.VAA00229@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: <199704111752.KAA20400@phx6.phxmedia.com> > [1] There are a good number of Sun 3's around. Unfortunately they seem to > always be just the cpu. If anyone in the silicon valley area (or anywhere > near there) would like to trade an old Sun for an Atari 1040ST with about > 40lbs of accessories, let me know. > Hi! I have a couple of Sun 3's available with Monochrome monitors, I'd be willing to trade for your Atari box... I'm in Los Angeles, and come up to San Jose every week on Wednesdays (though it'd be a right pain in the ass to lug this huge hulking monitor up there on the plane...) Send me some email at jv@phxmedia.com if you're interested. -- Phoenix Media Labs From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 11 06:08:07 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Is this a generational thing? My first computer exposure what to a > mainframe in the late 70's, but my first computer was an 80's micro. > Are people in the 40+ age group more likely to have fond memories > of minis? Of course. My own exposure was to micros in the 80s, so I begun by getting machines I had worked with back then. I don't discriminate at all, though, and would definitely love a PDP-8. But with storage space waning, seriously collecting minis (I won't even dare to think about mainframes) is a bit of a problem. Ignoring the fact that I can't seem to find any, anyway. :-) > I may not be an "old fart", but seening today's kids, sometimes I feel > like one. (Nintendo?, why in my day we had to type in our games on > membrane keyboards. It took hours to type them in. We stored programs > on cassette tape, and we liked it...) "And you tell that to young people, AND THEY WON'T BELIEVE YOU!" :-) Seriously now, I got my first (long expected) when I spent about an hour showing a Spectrum to my current flatmate (aged 19 I think) and trying to explain how you plug it into a TV set for display (instead of a monitor) and a tape recorder for data storage (but where's the drive?). Once she realised that the computer *was* the keyboard, a computer does *not* necessarily come with a printer and, once you write data to the tape, you can actually *load it back* again, everything was fine. Until she asked if I could lend it to her to do her industrial design CAD and Word work on. I think the Speccy's insulted now. :-) --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From jeffh at eleventh.com Thu Apr 10 15:24:56 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >In case you've not spotted it, most of that machine is built from standard >IBM parts. Yes, I had noticed that it appeared to be made out of standard looking parts, though the PSU was different than the XT's, as I have an extra XT PSU here I was keeping around just in case I ever had a project, such as external drives or such, that needed one. I had forgotten how much the very early XT keyboards left to be desired though! >If you want 640K without wasting a slot, here's what to do : Thanks for the info on the MOD! It likely won't be done anytime soon, but it's a good thing to know about. About the only thing I plan on doing right away is adding a serial port to it. Since you seem rather knowledgable of the system, do you know why it won't boot into CP/M-86 ver 1.1, but continues into the BASIC ROM after it checks the drive? Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From dcobley at island.net Sat Apr 12 10:16:23 1997 From: dcobley at island.net (David Cobley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: Hewlett-Packard HP125 Keyboards Message-ID: <199704121516.IAA22691@norm.island.net> Hi all. I'm pleased to report that the Xerox 16/8 system I offered for adoption here, has started its lengthy journey to it's new home in North Carolina, and the Kaypro Service manual is on its way to Oregon. Now its my turn to ask for help. Some time ago, at our local Thrift store, I bought two Hewlett-Packard HP125 Display units. They contain the monitor and CPU for these CP/M units and I have a good collection of suitable peripheral drive units. I only paid $2:50 each for the Display units. And they seem to work OK but I really can't be sure until I get keyboards. I also have a set of boot disks for them. But I have no keyboards. I understand the same keyboard was used with the H-P 26xx series of Terminals. Does anyone have one or two suitable keyboards they'd be willing to sell to me? My e-mail address is listed below. Thanks and cheers, David Cobley. Fidonet on the ADAM, CP/M Tech and Hewlett-Packard Echoes. Internet-dcobley@island.net, or, davidc@macn.bc.ca From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Apr 12 18:47:22 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: from "hellige" at Apr 11, 97 01:24:56 am Message-ID: <199704122347.RAA15812@calico.litterbox.com> Hmmm. Y'know, if that portable really is built up from a standard PC motherboard with the video connector in a card slot, you could (if you wanted to) change the motherboard for a newer one and have all kinds of fun. Yeah, I know this is a collecter's item probably, but with PCs upgrading is my first instinct. I don't even want to talk about how much that's cost me over the years. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From jeffh at eleventh.com Thu Apr 10 16:29:56 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Hmmm. Y'know, if that portable really is built up from a standard PC >motherboard with the video connector in a card slot, you could (if you wanted >to) change the motherboard for a newer one and have all kinds of fun. The biggest hurdles would be the 8-3/8" CRT (measured bezel-bezel) and the power supply inside. If one wanted to upgrade the CRT as well, you'd have a hard time finding a modern one to fit, or you'd have to go with an expenisve LCD, which would destroy the appearance that it was still the orginal machine. Also, given that most XT-clones tended to ship with 135-150W power supplies, and the early IBM's shipped with even less, you'd have a hard time running a newer board on one. I tried a few years ago with a 386DX-40, and it didn't like it at all! >Yeah, I know this is a collecter's item probably, but with PCs upgrading is >my first instinct. I don't even want to talk about how much that's cost me >over the years. Your idea isn't any worse than turning the orginal Mac's into aquariums, which seems to have a bit of a following! At least you're talking of keeping it a useful computer. I know the feeling about the upgrade-mania though...it's one of the things that turned me away from the PC, though I have two now, including the portable. Jeff Jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Thu Apr 10 16:38:40 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: How did you get started? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >I assume you realise that a CoCo2 disk drive + controller will work. >That's what I currently use. Actually, it's just that I've not run across the drive and/or controller yet. I recall seeing the items years ago on the clearance shelf of a local Radio Shack, and could kick myself for not picking them up...then again, I didn't have a CoCo at that point either. It brings to mind that I saw a whole bunch of TRS-80 bus mice for the Model 2000 at the military exchange in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba about 1990 or so...long after they became hard to find here in the U.S. I had just gotten rid of my Model 2000, so didn't bother picking any of them up either. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- // Amiga: Today's Technology Ten Years Ago // ------------------------------------------------------- \// True 32bit pre-emptive multitasking GUI, plug&play hardware, \/ stereo sound, and 4096 color video modes since day #1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Apr 13 16:33:24 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: ; from "hellige" at Apr 11, 97 1:24 am Message-ID: <199704131533.14184@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On 11-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > > >In case you've not spotted it, most of that machine is built from standard > >IBM parts. > > Yes, I had noticed that it appeared to be made out of standard looking > parts, though the PSU was different than the XT's, as I have an extra XT PSU > here I was keeping around just in case I ever had a project, such as external > drives or such, that needed one. I had forgotten how much the very early XT > keyboards left to be desired though! The PSU is very similar electrically (although I think it's 114W, not 135W, or something). Mechanically it's very different. > > >If you want 640K without wasting a slot, here's what to do : > > Thanks for the info on the MOD! It likely won't be done anytime soon, but > it's a good thing to know about. About the only thing I plan on doing right > away is adding a serial port to it. It's worth doing - 41256's are trivial to obtain (off old 286 memory boards if nothing else!), and it takes about 5 minutes. I did it to my portable the day I got it... > > Since you seem rather knowledgable of the system, do you know why it won't > boot into CP/M-86 ver 1.1, but continues into the BASIC ROM after it checks > the drive? No idea, I'm afraid. Does CP/M 86 run on an XT? (I beleive a few things wouldn't) - the portable is really an XT (and not a PC) system. > > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Apr 13 16:36:36 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: <199704122347.RAA15812@calico.litterbox.com>; from "Jim" at Apr 12, 97 5:47 pm Message-ID: <199704131536.14209@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Hmmm. Y'know, if that portable really is built up from a standard PC > motherboard with the video connector in a card slot, you could (if you wanted > to) change the motherboard for a newer one and have all kinds of fun. You can't, or at least not easily. The problem is that the keyboard interface is different between the XT and AT (and later) machines, and, of course, the portable has an XT type keyboard which is built into the case (it's a flap that folds over the screen). An upgrade is going to be difficult Also, the monitor is certainly CGA only. There's no way of using (say) a VGA card with it. Quite apart from the fact that the machine should be kept original. After all, it's one of the few portables for which a real techref is available... > Jim Strickland -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri Apr 11 12:41:28 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 13-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >The PSU is very similar electrically (although I think it's 114W, not >135W, or something). Mechanically it's very different. That's certainly not much to be running everything including the monitor off of. One would think that with the addition of that CRT that they'd have upped the power a little. >It's worth doing - 41256's are trivial to obtain (off old 286 memory >boards if nothing else!), and it takes about 5 minutes. I did it to my >portable the day I got it... What about the other chip you said needed to be put in...how hard is it to locate? It doesn't sound like the process would be terribly hard. >No idea, I'm afraid. Does CP/M 86 run on an XT? (I beleive a few things >wouldn't) - the portable is really an XT (and not a PC) system. I've since learned that no, CP/M-86 will not run on an XT! Which is too bad considering I have the full packages of both it and Concurrent CP/M sitting here and the 5155 is the only machine that's even close to what's needed to use it. Oh well! Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kayro 2X, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri Apr 11 12:43:35 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 13-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Quite apart from the fact that the machine should be kept original. After >all, it's one of the few portables for which a real techref is >available... And that's exactly what I intend to do with it. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kayro 2X, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 14 01:40:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: Well, today was a rather good day out at the swap meet, my first excursion in a couple years. It started out slow. The first thing I found was one lowly Atari 2600 PacMan cart sitting amidst some guy's junk. For some reason I thought I would buy it (?) thinking maybe I didn't already have PacMan (whatever) and it went like this: Me: How about a quarter? Him: 1 dollar. Me: A quarter? Him: 1 dollar. Me: How about 50 cents? Him: ok. Anyway, it got way better. Walking along I found a beautiful little TimexSinclair 1000! At least I'm am darned sure it is, because the label is missing on the top but the bottom has a stamp which has "CEC8E4TS1000R1" in it. There is also a sticker with a serial number and "Model M330" on it. Anyway, I've never actually seen one, but have been looking for one for years! And finally its mine! MINE! Haven't tested it yet but I'm sure it works. Its in good condition. Could someone who has one describe theirs so I can figure out exactly what I have? I know there were different varieties of the TS1000. Mine has an Ear and Mic jack on the side. What the hell are those for? Oh, duh, just figured it out...data recorder. Never mind. You know how hard it is to find a 9V DC power source with a 1/8" headphone jack? I looked all over the meet for one, finally found one but the seller wanted three bucks for it so I passed. I can't encourage that kind of larceny :) So continuing on I found some more Atari 2600 carts I didn't have, and then I found an original IBM PC/XT. The guy wanted $50 but I promptly talked him down to $7. What a steal. Haven't tested it yet but it "looks" like it will work :) Now I want the Original IBM PC and a PC Jr. The funny thing is, I paid more for 9 Atari 2600 games ($11 in one case) than an entire PC. So moving forward, I found someone selling a Macintosh 512K. Cool, I'd been wanting to add a classic Mac to my collection for some time. But this one was missing the keyboard and mouse. They only wanted $20 for it. I tried talking them down but they didn't want to move. Later I found someone selling a complete Mac+. Now this one I know was hot. At first they wanted $50 but I talked them down to $15 (I used the "It's all the money I have right now" ruse, except in this case it was true). I really wanted to get the other Mac, because it was closer to the original Macintosh, but this one was more complete, so I got it instead. Now, I don't want to disparage the fine folks of Oakland, California, but as I said before, I'm most positive this system was hot. They were too willing to dump off a perfectly good Macintosh (at least I think its perfectly good, haven't tested it yet) for too little money. Later on when I was going through the software I got with it I found some BMUG disks (BMUG = BayArea Macintosh User's Group). So I'll be contacting BMUG to see if any of their members "lost" a macintosh within the last couple months, and if I find a match I'll sell it back to them for what I paid. (I'm such a nice guy, eh!?) Throughout the day I saw a LOT of Nintendo consoles, carthridges and accessories (not classic enough yet). I'm sure in 5-10 years when I inevitably start collecting Nintendo crap I'll be wishing I had picked up a lot of this stuff. Oh well, maybe when I have enough money to buy all the truly classic stuff I want and THEN some cash left over for the common tripe, I'll start collecting nintendo. So anyway, at the end of the day I ended up with an IBM PC/XT (original), a MacintoshPlus, a TimexSinclair 1000 (yeah!) and about 25 more atari 2600 carts, plus an intellivision cart and a TI/994a cart. Total bill: $45. Not bad. And I'm still under my budget of $100 per month for classic computer collecting (I just implemented that budget, but I think it may be too high. I tend to get carried away when collecting old computer stuff and, if left unchecked, would buy everything I came across. As it is I just may go back for that Mac512K.) Now I just need to keep my new booty hidden from my fiance. If I can offer any tip to would-be flea market bargain hunters: haggle. Start way low and work up. Some people don't even know what they're selling, and think just because it's a computer (computer = high tech) it must be worth big bucks. You have to slap them around a bit until they come to their senses. No common system console (ie. Vic20s, Atari 2600s, etc) should go for more than $10 ($15 at the VERY most). No game carthridge should go for more than $.50 (IMO, unless you REALLY want it, then NO more than $2.00 each). What do you all think? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From pcoad at crl.com Mon Apr 14 02:27:26 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers In-Reply-To: <199704111458.AA17586@bs014.swec.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:58:15 +0100, Kevan is rumoured to have said: > > > [On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 01:24:34, PEC wrote:] > > > > Is this a generational thing? My first computer exposure what to a > > > mainframe in the late 70's, but my first computer was an 80's micro. > > > Are people in the 40+ age group more likely to have fond memories > > > of minis? > > > > I think there will be a strong corrolation here. > > Oh come on, guys. I'm not _that_ old :-) (36). Sorry Carl. I didn't mean to say you were _really_ old. I made a bad guess based on the minis and the 'old fart' thing. That'll teach me to not extrapolate from a small number of data points again! Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of this range? --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Apr 14 09:50:47 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: ; from "hellige" at Apr 11, 97 10:41 pm Message-ID: <199704140850.28157@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > On 13-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > > > >The PSU is very similar electrically (although I think it's 114W, not > >135W, or something). Mechanically it's very different. > > That's certainly not much to be running everything including the monitor > off of. One would think that with the addition of that CRT that they'd have > upped the power a little. Remember there's no hard disk - and in fact IBM state that the portable doesn't support a hard disk - which may account for the lower power PSU. Mind you, I've seen 5155's where one of the floppy drives had been replaced by a 1/2 height winchester, with a short-length controller card in one of the expansion slots. It seemed OK, but then such drives took a lot less power than the original full-height 10Mbyte unit. > > > >It's worth doing - 41256's are trivial to obtain (off old 286 memory > >boards if nothing else!), and it takes about 5 minutes. I did it to my > >portable the day I got it... > > What about the other chip you said needed to be put in...how hard is it to > locate? It doesn't sound like the process would be terribly hard. The 74F158? Most _good_ electronic suppliers should be able to provide it for a couple of dollars. I will have to look up exactly what is needed, though. > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 14 03:54:57 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Anyway, it got way better. Walking along I found a beautiful little > TimexSinclair 1000! At least I'm am darned sure it is, because the label > is missing on the top but the bottom has a stamp which has > "CEC8E4TS1000R1" in it. There is also a sticker with a serial number and > "Model M330" on it. Anyway, I've never actually seen one, but have been Well damn and double damn. My poor little TS1000 is brain dead. I don't get so much as a flicker on my TV out of it. Can someone suggest any tips towards reviving it? I took it apart and the only noticeable problem I noticed was that the keyboard connector strip was very brittle and broke in a couple places. I'm sure whatever the case may be the keyboard requires a new connector. I'm using my Atari 2600 9VDC adaptor which should work fine. Does anyone know what voltages I should see on the back edge connector? Should I try swapping out the CPU? There is also another 40-PIN chip in there (forgot what it was) and the Sinclair ROM chip. I don't suppose I could find a replacement for that. Judging from the brittleness of the keyboard connector, my guess is that the poor guy has been baking in the sun for years. Oh well. Guess I gotta keep searching. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon Apr 14 10:04:19 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: ; from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 14, 97 1:54 am Message-ID: <199704140904.28495@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Well damn and double damn. My poor little TS1000 is brain dead. I don't > get so much as a flicker on my TV out of it. Can someone suggest any > tips towards reviving it? I took it apart and the only noticeable > problem I noticed was that the keyboard connector strip was very brittle The machine will work without the keyboard. > and broke in a couple places. I'm sure whatever the case may be the > keyboard requires a new connector. I'm using my Atari 2600 9VDC adaptor > which should work fine. Does anyone know what voltages I should see on Have you got the polarity correct? I _think_ (and somebody should correct me if I'm not) that the TS1000 power jack has the tip positive. I'd be inclined to check for +5V at the output of the 7805 regulator. The modulator case (silver metal box) is a 0v ground. If you've got 5V, then check for a clock waveform at pin 6 (?) of the Z80 CPU. I assume you've tried tuning the television. The output of a TS1000 is an RF signal, not composite video. I guess it outputs on Channel 3 or 4 in the States - over here it's on UHF channel 36 (as are most other computers) > the back edge connector? Should I try swapping out the CPU? There is > also another 40-PIN chip in there (forgot what it was) and the Sinclair The other 40 pin chip is a custom Sinclair ULA, which is almost impossible to obtain. It's worse than the ROM in that it can't be copied. In theory, the ROM can be replaced by an EPROM, and I believe ZX81 ROM dumps are floating about somewhere... > ROM chip. I don't suppose I could find a replacement for that. Judging There should also be 1 or 2 RAM chips (4118 or 2 off 2114's I think) > from the brittleness of the keyboard connector, my guess is that the poor > guy has been baking in the sun for years. Oh well. Guess I gotta keep > searching. > > Sam -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From danjo at xnet.com Mon Apr 14 10:13:48 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:58:15 +0100, Kevan is rumoured to have said: > > > [On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 01:24:34, PEC wrote:] > > > > Is this a generational thing? My first computer exposure what to a > > > > mainframe in the late 70's, but my first computer was an 80's micro. > > > > Are people in the 40+ age group more likely to have fond memories > > > > of minis? > > > > > > I think there will be a strong corrolation here. > > > > Oh come on, guys. I'm not _that_ old :-) (36). > > Sorry Carl. I didn't mean to say you were _really_ old. I made a bad > guess based on the minis and the 'old fart' thing. That'll teach me > to not extrapolate from a small number of data points again! > > Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of > this range? Well, since I kind of started this whole thing 8-) I have been thinking about it. I collect EVERTHING. I AM pre-disposed to computer equipment but as I look back over the deca^H^H^H^Hyears I do see a pattern. Let's see if anyone else lines up with this history 8-) Grade school - got a Philco Entertainment Center - 78 RPM turntable AM Radio [680-1600 kilocycles] and Police Band [1600 - 2500 kilocycles] I ABSOLUTELY remember this radio - had a DC electromagnetic speaker coil that knocked me over the bed and into the wall! Got into B/W photography. Picked up (influenced from above radio) HeathKit 5-Band Shortwave Receiver [an AR-3 - still in the garage - used for getting the REAL WORLD news - as tho the BBC doesn't have an agenda 8-)] In Junior High School - rescued several 78's from the "Break-A-Record" game at a dance. [Including an Edison-Vitaphone of John Phillip Sousa] In High School I got to use the HP Portable Calculator - the one the sise of a couple of suitcases. [But it DID have a handle 8-)] In college, I did run punched cards into a Philco 3000 8-) And also a Xerox Sigma 5. Went into the Service, something about a war somewhere and a draft number of 3 - or something 8-) San Francisco - anybody remember the surplus stores down - I think on Market St. WWII wirerecorders - Surface Search Radars [wish I had one NOW 8-) - tho a SPS-6 Air Search would be nicer!] Really thought hard about building a Scelbi 8008 then opted to build the TVT-1 [Still with me!] Read up on the Mark-8. Then I got into motorcycles and other countries - a long pause - I'm free! I'm free! Back to the REAL WORLD. Worked for awhile in a Machine Shop - Cincinati Acromatic 250 [tubes] and Milacron AC-5 [transistors] and a beautiful old Moog 110? [Paper tape read by air - the air aligned plates to allow hydraulics to move the table] and an ASR-33 [how many of you remember editing paper tape 8-)]. Talked the boss into getting a TRS-80 and a HeathKit Paper tape punch/reader so I could do calculations and not waste tape. [You have already read of my Western Electric PDP-8 trauma 8-)] Moved on to a place called Numeridex [sold paper tape 8-)] and was introduced to the SBC 80/20 from Intel. And the Intelec MDS-800 and the DEC VAX 11/780 and the 11/23 [I have the MDS and the 11/23 8-)] Picked up KIM-1, SYM-1, various terminals, modems, printers and stuff along the way. Built a CPM system with a Megatel Quark-64/100 that had [may soon run again!] 4 8" Tandon 843B drives [still have 8 - don't ask - the Shugarts in the MDS are getting flaky] formatted to 1.6 MB. Well then the PC revolution started. Gee, I think I have one each of them too! Upto what ever they called the 386 processor models. Did a lot of work in the Industrial Control field - Allen-Bradley and Modicon. I got to see a lot of the old stuf - and new stuff. I get most of my stuff for free - or out of the garbage. I keep a lot of books too. I keep a lot of everything. Anybody need an Underground Guide for London [about 1974] 8-) [Yes I got to see some first run Dr. Who] I don;t think age has anything to do with it. It's how you perceive the world. It's going too fast for some of us to let it ALL go by. I wasn't raised to want the newest thing as soon as it shows up. Some people take a little longer to pick that up. If it works - leave it alone. Actually, my CPM systems are *apparently* faster than any of my PC stuff. I mean it only has to load 64KB from a 500Kbs floppy interface 8-) Well enough rambling. BC -- My pen is at the bottom of a page, Which, being finished, here the story ends; 'Tis to be wished it had been sooner done, But stories somehow lengthen when begun. -- Byron From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Apr 14 10:29:08 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Well, today was a rather good day out at the swap meet, my first > excursion in a couple years. I know that feeling... I've really got to get out more too! <<< snippage >>> > So moving forward, I found someone selling a Macintosh 512K. Cool, I'd > been wanting to add a classic Mac to my collection for some time. But > this one was missing the keyboard and mouse. They only wanted $20 for > it. I tried talking them down but they didn't want to move. Later I > found someone selling a complete Mac+. Now this one I know was hot. At > first they wanted $50 but I talked them down to $15 (I used the "It's all > the money I have right now" ruse, except in this case it was true). I > really wanted to get the other Mac, because it was closer to the original > Macintosh, but this one was more complete, so I got it instead. > > Now, I don't want to disparage the fine folks of Oakland, California, but > as I said before, I'm most positive this system was hot. They were too > willing to dump off a perfectly good Macintosh (at least I think its > perfectly good, haven't tested it yet) for too little money. Later on > when I was going through the software I got with it I found some BMUG > disks (BMUG = BayArea Macintosh User's Group). So I'll be contacting BMUG > to see if any of their members "lost" a macintosh within the last couple > months, and if I find a match I'll sell it back to them for what I paid. > (I'm such a nice guy, eh!?) Well... as I was not there I can only venture a long-distance opinion, but I've had almost no problem finding Mac Plus' in the $20 ~ $40 range. And SE's for that matter for not much more. ($40 ~ $80) Around here, they seem to have little value as they are not color, not well supported (seems almost all recent software wants an '040 or above), and not nearly old enough to be unique/collectable (like a '128 or '512). So far, I've found it a lot more difficult to put the nab on a Mac 128 than just about anything else. But, just my take on it... > Not bad. And I'm still under my budget of $100 per month for classic > computer collecting (I just implemented that budget, but I think it may > be too high. Ooh! Self control!! (I need some!!!) B^} > I tend to get carried away when collecting old computer > stuff and, if left unchecked, would buy everything I came across. As it > is I just may go back for that Mac512K.) Gopher it! ...and if you feel guilty later, I'm sure there are people out here who will help! > Now I just need to keep my new booty hidden from my fiance. Oops... bad precident! Best to introduce them early on than risk an unplanned discovery later! > What do you all think? Think I just answered that one... B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Mon Apr 14 14:32:28 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3355863c.2313056@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:27:26 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of >this range? > >--pec >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > I'm outside that range, and I am serious! _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan at 10:23 a.m. on April 13th!!! (7lbs. 2oz., 19", lots of dark hair, and HEALTHY!) From COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU Mon Apr 14 14:52:25 1997 From: COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU (Benjamin M Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers Message-ID: <01IHP6YVWDDU8Y6DM3@AC.GRIN.EDU> > >Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of=20 > >this range? > > > >--pec > >------------------------------------------------------------------------= > -- > > > I'm outside that range, and I am serious! > _______________ > > Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com > Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, > Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan at 10:23 a.m. on April 13th!!! > (7lbs. 2oz., 19", lots of dark hair, and HEALTHY!) I've been watching that .sig for a while now. Congratulations! On topic: Well, I'm outside of that range too, but on the other end. -- Ben Coakley coakley@ac.grin.edu 530 User anonymous access denied. http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley/classic for my classic game page! From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 14 17:14:21 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes Message-ID: <199704142214.QAA26464@calico.litterbox.com> When I first broached the idea of making my palmtop talk to a PC JR keyboard, someone on this list mentioned they knew where to find the keyboard codes the Peanut keyboard generates. Since I've had no luck finding this data in web searches, could that someone please let me know where to find this info? -Jim -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri Apr 11 22:42:54 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sam, The transformer with my TS-1000 shows an input (to the computer) of 9.75V DC. Both my TS-1000 and Sinclair ZX-81 seem to be picky about TV's and the shielding of the cable. As for identifying marks, from your previous post, the only thing my TS-1000 has on it is the FCC ID# CEC8E4TS1000R1. Otherwise, there's no mention of the number you mentioned...just the sticker on the top 'Timex-Sinclair 1000'. The box and such doesn't give any indications to other identifiers either. Hope this is of some help. Jeff Jeffh@eleventh.com P.S. the Aquarius went out to you today UPS -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kayro 2X, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri Apr 11 23:29:36 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 14-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >When I first broached the idea of making my palmtop talk to a PC JR keyboard, >someone on this list mentioned they knew where to find the keyboard codes the >Peanut keyboard generates. Since I've had no luck finding this data in web >searches, could that someone please let me know where to find this info? Jim, What are you referring to as a 'peanut' keyboard? The only PC Jr. keyboard I've seen in use, and I have one here though no PC Jr., is the one that has the two IR leds on the rear, an RJ-11 type jack, and a space for 4 'AA' batteries. How many different keyboard types were there for the Jr.? Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kayro 2X, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 14 18:19:12 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes In-Reply-To: from "hellige" at Apr 12, 97 09:29:36 am Message-ID: <199704142319.RAA26758@calico.litterbox.com> That's the one I have. Peanut was the nickname for the PC Jr. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 14 19:47:32 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes In-Reply-To: from "hellige" at Apr 12, 97 09:29:36 am Message-ID: <199704150047.UAA23296@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great hellige once stated: > > On 14-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > > >When I first broached the idea of making my palmtop talk to a PC JR keyboard, > >someone on this list mentioned they knew where to find the keyboard codes the > >Peanut keyboard generates. Since I've had no luck finding this data in web > >searches, could that someone please let me know where to find this info? > > Jim, > > What are you referring to as a 'peanut' keyboard? The only PC Jr. keyboard > I've seen in use, and I have one here though no PC Jr., is the one that has > the two IR leds on the rear, an RJ-11 type jack, and a space for 4 'AA' > batteries. How many different keyboard types were there for the Jr.? > There are two types. The original "chicklet" style, with square keys with enough space between keys for an overlay to fit over the entire keyboard (with the two IR leds, the RJ-11 type jack and space for 4 'AA' batteries) and the second one, which looks more like a normal keyboard (with the aformentioned items). The "Chicklet" style keyboard (my friend had a PCjr with one) are very rare, as IBM quickly realized its mistake in actually making that type of keyboard (and was one of the worse keyboards (for touch typists) ever made by IBM) and came out with the new style keyboards. -spc (Has PCjr at home) From marcw at lightside.com Mon Apr 14 17:42:29 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes Message-ID: <199704150120.SAA19048@covina.lightside.com> > When I first broached the idea of making my palmtop talk to a PC JR keyboard, > someone on this list mentioned they knew where to find the keyboard codes the > Peanut keyboard generates. Since I've had no luck finding this data in web > searches, could that someone please let me know where to find this info? > > -Jim > -- I've got a program that comes with NCSA Telnet called SCANCHEK so one can check the scan codes of their keyboard. I've had to use it a few times to get some programs to recognize my Tandy 1000's F11 & F12 keys which are different from IBM's. If you don't find the info I can send it to you or you can download all of NCSA Telnet from SimTel. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com (finger at: marcw@mail.lightside.com) marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 14 21:09:02 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes In-Reply-To: <199704142214.QAA26464@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim" at Apr 14, 97 04:14:21 pm Message-ID: <199704150209.WAA23418@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Jim once stated: > > When I first broached the idea of making my palmtop talk to a PC JR keyboard, > someone on this list mentioned they knew where to find the keyboard codes the > Peanut keyboard generates. Since I've had no luck finding this data in web > searches, could that someone please let me know where to find this info? > I have the IBM PCjr Technical Reference Manual here (at home). Here's the relevent data from it (only the more important stuff): INFRA-RED RECEIVER ... Functional Description ... During keyboard operation, the emitted light is modulated, transmitted, and received in the following sequence: 1. A key is pushed. 2. The data stream is sent using the infra-red emitting diodes 3. The receiver amplifies and processes the signal. 4. The demodulated signal is sent to the system board. The signal received consists of an infra-red-light transmission modulated at 40 kHz. Application Notes The Infra-Red Receiver Board can serve as a general-purpose infra-red-receiver, however, the demodulator timings are tailored to the needs of the system. Programming Considerations The serially-encoded word is software de-serialized by the 8088 processor on the system unit. The leading edge of the start bit will generate a non-maskable interrupt (NMI). Once the processor enters the NMI routine to handle the deserialization, the keyboard-data line is sampled and the processor waits to sample the trailing edge of the start bit. When the trailing edge of the start bit is sampled, the processor will wait for 310 uS and sample the first half of the first data bit. This delay causes the processor to sample in the nominal center of the first half of the first data bit. The processor then samples the keyboard data every half- bit cell-time. The sampling interval is 220 uS. The processor samples each half-bit-sample 5 times and will determine the logical level of the sample by majority rule. This enables the processor to discrimitate against transient glitches and to filter out noise. The 8088 processor ultilizes one 8255 PPI bit (PORT C BIT 6) and shares one 8253 timer channel (CHANNEL 1) to do the software de-serialization of the keyboard data. ... Infra-Red connector Specifications Pin Signal Input/Output A01 +12V input A02 Ground input A03 Ground-shield input A04 I.R. TEST FREQ. input B01 Ground input B02 +5V input B03 -I.R. TEST FRQ output B04 Ground input IBM PCjr CORDLESS KEYBOARD ... Power is sent to the keyboard and serially-encoded data received by the system unit through the optional cord. When connected, the cord's keyboard connector removes the battery power and the -CABLE CONNECT signal disables the infra-red-receiver circuit. The disabling of the circuit also allows other infrared devices to be used without interfering with the system. The data which is received through the IR link or by the cord, have the same format. ... Transmitter Serially encoded words are transmitted to the system unit using the Infra-Red Link or the cable link. Encoded words are sent to the system unit with odd parity. Both the Infra-Red Link and the cable link use biphase serial-encoding and each is a simplex link. The 80C48 microprocessor does the biphase serial encoding with a bit cell of 440 uS. A biphase logically-encoded 1 is transmitted as logical 1 for the first half of the bit cell time and as a logical 0 for the second half of the bit cell. A bitphase logically-encoded 0 is transmitted as a logical 0 for the first half of the bit cell time and as a logical 1 for the second half of the bit cell. Each logical 1 transmission for the Infra-Red Link consists of a 40 kHz carrier burst at a 50% duty cycle. First bit Start Bit Second bit Data Bit 0 (Least Significant Bit) Third bit Data Bit 1 ... Ninth bit Data bit 7 (Most Significant Bit) Tenth bit Parity Bit Eleventh bit Stop Bit Eleven stop bits are inserted after every scan-code transmission. This is to allow some processor bandwidth between keystrokes to honor other types of interrupts, such as serial and time-of-day. Cable: | biphase 1 | | biphase 0 | ----+ +---------- -----------+ +---------- | | | | +------+ +------+ | Bit cell | | Bit Cell | ->| 220uS|<- | | ->| 220uS|<- ->| 440 uS |<- ->| 440 uS |<- Infra-Red | biphase 1 | | biphase 1 | ----+WW+------------- -----------+WW+--------------------- |WW| 40 kHz |WW| 40 kHz +WW+ @ 50% duty cycle +WW+ @ 50% duty Cycle | | | ->|220uS |<- ->| |<-62.5uS | | ->| |<-| 62.5uS ->| 440uS |<- ->| 440uS | The scancodes the application program receives via INT 16h (or even from INT 09h) are compatible with the original IBM PC 83-key keyboard (to maintain compatibility). The NMI routine decodes the serial stream, then calls INT 48h with the scan code in AL to concert the 62-key code to the 83-key code, which it stores into port 60h, then calls INT 09h. Unfortunately, the tech ref is quite vague on what keys return which scan codes, so you may have to actually play with INT 48h to see the actual codes. The BIOS listing is less than clear 8-) -spc (I would recomend getting IBM Technical Reference Part #6322963) From jeffh at eleventh.com Sat Apr 12 02:54:08 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 14-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > The "Chicklet" style keyboard (my friend had a PCjr with one) are very >rare, as IBM quickly realized its mistake in actually making that type of >keyboard (and was one of the worse keyboards (for touch typists) ever made >by IBM) and came out with the new style keyboards. Thanks for the info. The one I have appears to be the 'chicklet' one. Now I just have to get a PCjr to go along with it! Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128 & C128D, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kayro 2X, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 14 21:50:30 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes In-Reply-To: <199704150209.WAA23418@armigeron.com> from "Captain Napalm" at Apr 14, 97 10:09:02 pm Message-ID: <199704150250.UAA27716@calico.litterbox.com> Thanks to all who responded to my query about keyboard operations, particularly Captain Napalm, who typed in the whole section from the technical reference guide. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Apr 14 21:48:38 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: pc jr keyboard codes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970414194838.00e06ec8@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:29 AM 4/12/97 +0500, you wrote: > What are you referring to as a 'peanut' keyboard? The only PC Jr. keyboard >I've seen in use, and I have one here though no PC Jr., is the one that has >the two IR leds on the rear, an RJ-11 type jack, and a space for 4 'AA' >batteries. How many different keyboard types were there for the Jr.? As I recall, "peanut" was the project code name for the PCjr. As to keyboards, there were two that I recall. The original 'chiclet' keyboard, and a later (more normal) one in the same form factor. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From davidv at cs.mun.ca Mon Apr 14 21:51:08 1997 From: davidv at cs.mun.ca (David Vincent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: Anyone have any info on the Atari Microbox??? Message-ID: <199704150251.AAA25938@ganymede.cs.mun.ca> I recently came across a picture of a Atari Microbox on a Classic Computing homepage and was wondering if anyone was lucky to come across any of the prototypes in their travels. Any info would be appreciated, Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Vincent davidv@ganymede.cs.mun.ca ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From wseehorn at intrstar.net Mon Apr 14 17:18:36 1997 From: wseehorn at intrstar.net (Willard Seehorn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:14 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers In-Reply-To: <3355863c.2313056@smtp.ix.netcom.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970414181836.0068be28@intrstar.net> At 07:32 PM 4/14/97 GMT, you wrote: >On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:27:26 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >>Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of >>this range? >> >>--pec >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ I dunno about serious, but I'm _way_ over that age range. As I said to Adam while I was changing his diapers.... Willard Seehorn Whiteville NC USA wseehorn@intrstar.net From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Tue Apr 15 17:54:33 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Hard-sector floppies Message-ID: <335706ae.7261304@smtp.ix.netcom.com> I have a box (about 250-300) of hard-sector 5?" disks. Anyone interested??? Sell/trade/??? _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan at 10:23 a.m. on April 13th!!! (7lbs. 2oz., 19", lots of dark hair, and HEALTHY!) From mhop at snip.net Wed Apr 16 19:51:45 1997 From: mhop at snip.net (mhop) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 25 Message-ID: <19970417004858723.AAB202@computer-name> > I have a box (about 250-300) of hard-sector 5=BC" > disks. Anyone interested??? Sell/trade/??? What are "hard-sector" disks? Not the same as a 5.25 floppy? mhop@snip.net From amsentry at microweb.com Wed Apr 16 20:14:27 1997 From: amsentry at microweb.com (John R. Sowden) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 25 Message-ID: <9704170114.AA11835@arachnid.microweb.com> At 20:51 4/16/97 -0400, you wrote: >> I have a box (about 250-300) of hard-sector 5=BC" >> disks. Anyone interested??? Sell/trade/??? > >What are "hard-sector" disks? Not the same as a 5.25 floppy? > mhop@snip.net > > hard sewctore means that there are 13? holde in the disk for the drive led to read to determine where a sector starts. A soft sectore disk hs one hle (like the IBM type disks used today. A popular user of hard sector disks was NorthStar Computers. John ***************************** John R. Sowden ***************************** *American Sentry Systems, Inc. * * 1221 Andersen Drive * * San Rafael, CA 94901 * * Voice (415) 457-2622 * * FAX (415)457-2624 * * amsentry@microweb.com * ***************************** From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Apr 16 21:45:41 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Hard-Sectored 5.25" floppies In-Reply-To: <19970417004858723.AAB202@computer-name> from "mhop" at Apr 16, 97 08:51:45 pm Message-ID: <9704170145.AA09385@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 773 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970416/714233e9/attachment-0001.ksh From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 16 20:57:42 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Hard-sector disks In-Reply-To: <19970417004858723.AAB202@computer-name> References: <19970417004858723.AAB202@computer-name> Message-ID: <3357830e.1846139@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:51:45 -0400, you wrote: >> I have a box (about 250-300) of hard-sector 5.25" >> disks. Anyone interested??? Sell/trade/??? > >What are "hard-sector" disks? Not the same as a 5.25 floppy? > mhop@snip.net > Soft-sector (common IBM-compatible) disks have only one hole. (Called the index hole?) Hard-sector disks have multiple holes which define where the sectors will be. The disks I have, close to 350 of them actually, are 16-sector disks which have a total of 17 holes. Not at all suitable for IBM-compatible usage but I understand Commodore 64 and possibly other systems ignore the holes. Somebody must have a use for these, they are bulk-packed in packs of 50 each. I bought them at auction, thinking I had a good deal but not thinking enough. I would prefer that someone with a system which requires 16-sector disks get them. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan at 10:23 a.m. on April 13th!!! (7lbs. 2oz., 19", lots of dark hair, and HEALTHY!) From wbrco at valuenet.net Wed Apr 16 21:21:59 1997 From: wbrco at valuenet.net (Allen Underdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 25 References: <19970417004858723.AAB202@computer-name> Message-ID: <33558947.31B8@valuenet.net> mhop wrote: > > > I have a box (about 250-300) of hard-sector 5=BC" > > disks. Anyone interested??? Sell/trade/??? > > What are "hard-sector" disks? Not the same as a 5.25 floppy? > mhop@snip.net You can always tell the youngsters...... Hard/soft sectoring - In the olden days of magnetic floppy media, there was a sector hole FOR EVERY SECTOR located around the hub of the floppy. Now adays, there is only one, and the computer keeps track of where it's at (sector wise) by watching the data (i.e. soft sectoring). If you rotate a regular 5.25 floppy in the sleeve now, you will only count 1 hole. I can't remember how many sectors per track were on the hard sector floppies (12 jumps to mind) but you would find that many holes per revolution. Goes back to that track/cylinder concept. God I love reading this list! -- | Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | | Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | | homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | | Try My BBS at 314.939.9445! | From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Wed Apr 16 21:29:25 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring Message-ID: <199704170229.WAA00258@zephyr.cacm.org> On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:23:30 -0400, this arrived on the list from the esteemed Mr. Allen Underdown: > In the olden days of magnetic floppy media, there was a sector hole > FOR EVERY SECTOR located around the hub of the floppy. All very well and good, but there's that one extra you forgot about. ;-) Yes, hard-sectored disks _do_ have a hole to denote the beginning of each sector, but to indicate the beginning of a _track_ they use two adjacent holes. In soft-sectored disks, the single hole serves to signal the beginning-of-track; the individual sectors are defined via headers recorded during the format operation. > God I love reading this list! With all due respects to Mr. Mel Brooks: "Ditto!" ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From danjo at xnet.com Wed Apr 16 22:20:50 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: <199704170229.WAA00258@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, this arrived on the list from the esteemed Mr. Carl R. Friend: > On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:23:30 -0400, this arrived on the list from > the esteemed Mr. Allen Underdown: > > In the olden days of magnetic floppy media, there was a sector hole > > FOR EVERY SECTOR located around the hub of the floppy. > > All very well and good, but there's that one extra you forgot > about. ;-) All very well and good, but there's that one extra you forgot about. ;-) 8-) > Yes, hard-sectored disks _do_ have a hole to denote the beginning > of each sector, but to indicate the beginning of a _track_ they use > two adjacent holes. In soft-sectored disks, the single hole serves > to signal the beginning-of-track; the individual sectors are defined > via headers recorded during the format operation. And one in the middle! > > God I love reading this list! > > With all due respects to Mr. Mel Brooks: "Ditto!" With all due respects to Mel Brooks and Mr. Carl R. Friend and Rush Limbaugh: "Ditto! Mega-Ditto" BC From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Apr 17 00:28:23 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jesus, with all those holes, it is a wonder they fit ANY data on them at all! Les From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed Apr 16 01:02:14 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP vintage folk References: <199704150702.AAA13216@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33546B66.2074@goldrush.com> >>Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of >>this range? Seriously? Your regular poster, Larry Anderson, was originally looked upon with suspician because he had an Amiga in addition to his C=64's and PET's. Time proved his sincere appreciation of classic models. HE's in his 30's, my age can't be taken seriously. Diane Hare/MS.HARE San Andreas, CA snotmyfault -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From gram at cnct.com Thu Apr 17 08:32:21 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Hard-sector disks In-Reply-To: <3357830e.1846139@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > Soft-sector (common IBM-compatible) disks have only one hole. > (Called the index hole?) Hard-sector disks have multiple holes > which define where the sectors will be. The disks I have, close to 350 > of them actually, are 16-sector disks which have a total of 17 holes. > Not at all suitable for IBM-compatible usage but I understand > Commodore 64 and possibly other systems ignore the holes. The systems best known for ignoring ALL holes in floppies are the original Apples and their descendants. Woz apparently couldn't afford a real controller, so he did it all in software. The Apples read the whole track and determine what's on it from memory. Naturally this made the Apple disk subsystem the slowest thing possible until the geniuses at Commodore outdid them by using a serial disk interface. (And people complained about the TRS-80 cassette system -- well, it's the only one that had a cassette system reliable enough to put off upgrading to disk, so people had _time_ to complain.) -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From prp at ichips.intel.com Thu Apr 17 09:49:38 1997 From: prp at ichips.intel.com (Paul Pierce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: [Fwd: old computer "junk"] Message-ID: <33563882.125B@ichips.intel.com> Here is an unfortunate opportunity - maybe someone here can help. Paul Pierce -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Cynthia Croxton Subject: old computer "junk" Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:16:14 -0700 Size: 1856 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970417/e29b1e1e/attachment-0001.mht From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu Apr 17 19:48:31 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Regular Posting: FAQ Message-ID: ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.2 Last Update: 4/16/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ has jumped 2 updates because I've been lazy about posting it. Part 5.4 is new Sections 6-9 are new. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- About ClassicCmp ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. About the List ----------------- 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? 1.3 What's a Classic Computer? 1.4 Who runs this thing? 1.5 Don't you know you're duplicating what others have done? 2. Protocol and Etiquette ------------------------- 2.1 What can I talk about? 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? 2.3 Can I talk about Mini/MainFrames? 2.4 Can I post advertisements? 2.5 Can I ask people to give me their computers? 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x? 2.7 Where should I look before posting a dumb question? 3. Misc List Information ------------------------ 3.1 How many subscribers are there? 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? 4. ClassicCmp Resources on the Net ---------------------------------- 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a Web Site? 4.2 How come the Web Site is so ugly? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collecting ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5.1 Where can I find Classic Computers? 5.2 How much is machine x worth? 5.3 Will thousands of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? 5.4 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hardware and Media ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6.1 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? 7. Media -------- 7.1 What's a hard sector disk? What's a soft sector disk? 7.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. 7.3 Can these formats be interchanged? 7.4 What disk sizes are there? 7.5 How do I take care of old media? 8. Component Failure Issues --------------------------- 8.1 Do EPROM's go bad? 8.2 How about ROM's, other chips? 8.3 How about capacitors? 8.4 Anything else? 8.5 So how do I backup all this stuff like you suggest? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Software ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9.1 Where can I get a system disk for platform X? 9.2 What's the best way to back up my software? ============================================================================= 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection (just hoarding), restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them. 1.3 What is a Classic Computer? Any computer that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic. This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to work OK, so I've kept it. 1.4 Who runs this thing? That would be me, Bill Whitson. I run this thing when I'm not busy being a network admin at the University of Washington, SCUBA diving, playing drums in punk rock bands, or drinking heavily. Oh yeah, I'm a 22 year old, unmarried, childless, white, male living in the state of Washington in the US. People ask you the strangest things when you run a listproc... 1.5 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done. Damn straight. That's what the internet's all about. OK, guess I have to update this too - I get a "reinventing the wheel" e-mail at least once a week. If you show me another group of computer collectors that claims a membership as large as this one I'll show you a group that must be very hard to find. Obviously there are other groups of collectors and I'm cheering them on - I don't see a problem with duplicating and reduplicating lore that's quickly disappearing anyway. 2.1 What can I talk about? Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might want to check facts before you start shooting off messages (if you're easily embarrassed). 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then be aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC newsgroups. 2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames? There has apparently been some misconception that this is a list for micros only. You'll note I said "misconception". 2.4 Can I post advertisements? Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course, use your brain - don't spam. 2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers? Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example, would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on usenet who will vouch for this. See section 5 for info on how to find your- self a computer. 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x. Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic electronics tools (DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). I'm no whiz with this stuff and the little knowledge I have has come from asking questions and then buying books to find out what "Simple... Just check the voltage on the caps in the PS to make sure one of them isn't flaking out!" exactly means. 2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question? It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below). 3.1 How many subscribers are there? Around 230, fluxing daily. 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? Don't bother asking me. If you really want to know go ahead and post to the list. I really don't know what having a number will do for you... 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a web site? Yep. http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html 4.2 How come the web site is so ugly? How come a PET is so ugly? Who cares as long as it works? 5.1 Where can I find classic computers? The best places seem to be thrift stores and swap meets. These are closely followed by pawn shops and mom and pop computer stores. The holy grails are electronics scrap yards - but they tend to be wary of individual pick-and-choosers. Oh yeah - garage sales! 5.2 How much is machine x worth? Precisely as much as you'll pay for it. Oh, you're selling it? Then, precisely as much as I'll pay for it. Seriously, no one prices these any more. I have an old Computer Blue Book that lists many classic computers but the prices are just ridiculous. Some machines (Apple Lisa's, old old Mini's, and unreleased prototypes) are starting down the road toward their original selling prices. 5.3 Will 1000's of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? Yes. This is the impetus behind every collector's tireless and selfless effort. Each machine we fail to save has it's gold parts mercilessly hacked off and sold (just like rhino horns - and look at the rhinos). The remainder is then sent to China to be made into bicycle spokes (you probably think I'm joking). Save a computer! Act now! Remind your wife of the rhino and cuter, furrier animals. It might work. In all seriousness - there are a large (and growing) number of so called "computer and electronics 'recyclers'" who take usable computers and recycle them into "reusable scrap". Small amounts of gold, silver, and platinum are extracted and the remainder of the material is generally just marketed to less wasteful countries. 5.4 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? Don't power it up yet! All of the following should probably be done before that power switch gets flipped. Open the case - clean and visually inspect components. You're looking for traces of smoke, water, corrosion, loose screws, blown caps and resistors, etc. You can avoid a number of problems just by taking a peek inside. If you have the tools (and the machine is sufficiently rare) pull and dump backups of all EPROMs, ROMs, and PALs. Disconnect the power supply from the rest of the computer and start it up on a "dummy load". A six volt headlight bulb has been recommended as a convenient load. These should be available from any decent Volkswagen shop. Hopefully this will prevent frying the rest of the machine with a flaky power supply. You may want to check the voltage output before you do this as it could be no where near the 5V average in micros. Even if you don't want to connect a load it's still probably a good idea to power it up separately from the computer for the first time. If you have a really rare beast it may be worth powering up some of the key capacitors out of circuit just to get them warmed up. Now you can power it up. Assuming it works, take a blank disk, format it, write some data to it, and read it back before using your precious software with it, as a bad disk drive could really ruin your day. 6.1 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? Cases: It seems best to start gently with such old equipment. Try soaking in a little water and dish soap and then scrubbing. This takes care of most jobs. For removing stickers try mineral oil or Goo-Gone (available at most hardware stores - in the US at least). If those don't work, acetone can be good but, if overused, can do more harm. For removing marker, almost any solvent is good (alcohol, naptha, etc) but will definitely discolor or dissolve plastic if not carefully applied. Lava soap is also good for removing marker but can smooth off textured plastic. For removing sun or tobacco discoloring a product called Purple Stuff available from auto parts stores (again, in the US at least) seems to do the job almost effortlessly. Connectors: For edge connectors a plain pink eraser seems good for removing corrosion. Make sure to wipe the connectors with a clean cloth after erasing on them though. There are a large number chemicals on the market that "magically" remove corrosion from comp- onents but I'm not anxious to promote any of them. For pin style connectors a toothbrush and some softscrub or other mildly abrasive cleaner do wonders. Keyboards: I find a cycle through the dishwasher does a really nice job on keyboards. Just be sure they're completely dry before you put any power to them. 7.1 What's a hard sectored disk? What's a soft sectored disk? We'll start with soft-sector since they're simpler to explain. On a soft-sector floppy disk the information that marks where a sector begins and ends is written to the disk by the computer (part of the formatting process). This means that various computers can use the same floppy disk types because the format of the disk is control- led by the operating system. Hard sector disks use a system of perforations in the media to mark the beginnings and ends of sectors. This means that computers which used hard sectored disks required the exact disk type they specified rather than a generic soft-sector floppy. A number of differently sectored disks were available - at least 10, 13, and 16 sector formats. 8 inch and 5.25 inch disks commonly used hard sectoring. To my knowledge it was never used with 3.5 inch disks. 7.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. These all refer to the number of useable sides on a disk and it's density (how "efficiently" the magnetic bits are pushed together). SS/SD is a Single Sided - Single Density disk, the earliest available type I believe. The storage afforded by a single density disk was very small compared to today's standards. Single Sided disks were popular because they were cheaper than DS and could be easily modified with a hole punch into double sided disks. SD was followed by Double Density which, amazingly, doubled the amount of storage space. Double Density was followed by the extremely short-lived Quad Density which doubled a DD disk. QD was short lived because High Density was right on it's heels and nearly doubled disk capacity again. DS/HD was as sophisticated as 5.25" disks became. 3.5" disks have progressed as far as DS/EHD double-sided / extra-high density. 7.3 Can these formats be interchanged? Well, that may depend on what computer you are using, but in general the following substitutions may be made: Desired Format Substitute --------------------------------------------------- Single Density Double Density Double Density none reliably Quad Density High Density High Density none Other substitutions may be made, but due to physical differences in how the disks are made they are generally unreliable. It can almost be guaranteed that data written to a proper density disk of poor quality will last longer than data written to a good quality disk of the wrong density. 7.4 What disk sizes are there? Physically? There are 8 inch, 5.25 inch, and 3.5 inch as "standard" disks. There are also some unique and/or short-lived sizes such as 3 inch disks used by Amstrad and 2 inch disks which were pioneered for use in laptops and then quickly forgotten. 7.5 How do I take care of old media? Step one is Back It Up! After that, make sure it's kept in a clean, dry, temperature-controlled environment (I keep mine in a broken freezer). With disks it seems important to keep them standing on end rather than lying flat - the same goes for cassette tapes. I like to exercise disks and tapes at least once every six months although I have no real evidence that this has any positive effect. I have modified an old C64 floppy drive to simply spin when a disk is inserted and send large stacks of disks through it on a regular basis just to make sure they're not starting to stick up internally. An exciting and somewhat recent development is that availability of classic computer emulators that can make disk images of old media on PC's and Macs. This seems to be a very good way to backup disks since they will eventually go bad no matter how well we take care of them. The official line seems to be that floppy disks have a shelf-life of approximately 10 years. With proper care many are lasting a lot longer. 8.1 Do EPROM's go bad? Definitely. They apparently are considered to reliably contain data for (on the outside edge) 15 years. This amount can be considerably reduced if, for example, the sticker over the window has dried out and fallen off. Luckily EPROMs were not used too extensively but they're out there. An EPROM writer/reader is a relatively cheap investment and an easy fix. Even if an EPROM has "forgotten" it's data it is still fine for being "re-educated". 8.2 How about ROMs and other chips? Things wear out. It's likely that even components which have not been fried by catastrophic failure will simply start to die someday. ROMs can be dumped to a file and re-written if they die. Other custom chips which are all too common in micros will be far more difficult to replace. The best advice is to stockpile these chips when you can - but someday even unused chips will probably start to turn up bad. In this case the best defense is to stockpile information in the hope of being able to modify an existing component to meet your needs. 8.3 How about capacitors? This seems to be another large concern, but rather than being an unreplaceable component a capacitor will take your unreplaceable components with it when it goes. It's a good idea to check out all the caps in a system if you haven't fired it up in a while. Caps go bad with time (even tantalum caps, apparently - although they are more reliable) and should be replaced if they are suspect. It's unlikely that it will be impossible to find a replacement capacitor as they are much more standard electronic components. 8.4 Anything else? Documentation: If there's anything which is entirely unreplaceable its the docs for uncommon equipment. Once they're gone, they're gone. I regularly pick up docs I find for equipment I don't have just because I may someday. Paper will, of course. go bad over time but it will be obvious and they will be easily duplicated. Hard Disks: ST-251s, ST-502s, MFM, RLL... old hard disks are going to go bad. Then they'll be gone. Theoretically, I suppose it's possible to crack a hard drive and replace a dead bearing, realign, relaminate, etc... but I've never heard of anyone doing these things in their base- ment. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years many of us will be experts at this. 8.5 So, how do I back up all this stuff like you suggest? This answer will undoubtedly get longer as I learn more. The best ways seem to be to dump the particular ROM (or whatever) using the approp- riate equipment to a floppy disk (which most of this equipment allows). From BigLouS at aol.com Thu Apr 17 21:17:31 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers Message-ID: <970417221700_572297337@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-14 22:27:40 EDT, you write: > > >Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of=20 > > >this range? > > I'm seriously outside of =20. more like =20 +25(next week). Lou From wbrco at valuenet.net Thu Apr 17 21:57:29 1997 From: wbrco at valuenet.net (Allen Underdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring References: Message-ID: <3356E318.1F62@valuenet.net> Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > Jesus, with all those holes, it is a wonder they fit ANY > data on them at all! > > Les Well, when your operating system is a whopping 4Kb, and the Basic Interpiter was 12K, you didn't need much. It wasn't that you wrote in assembler because it was faster, but it was the only... I stand humble to those who corrected me.. -- | Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | | Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | | homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | | Try My BBS at 314.939.9445! | From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Apr 17 23:02:43 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: <3356E318.1F62@valuenet.net> from "Allen Underdown" at Apr 17, 97 09:57:29 pm Message-ID: <9704180302.AA13118@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970417/a9a93aad/attachment-0001.ksh From danjo at xnet.com Thu Apr 17 22:29:35 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: <9704180302.AA13118@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Well, when your operating system is a whopping 4Kb, and > > the Basic Interpiter was 12K, you didn't need much. > > > > It wasn't that you wrote in assembler because it was > > faster, but it was the only... > > What - you had an assembler? I have to toggle in ones and > zeroes. Before that we didn't even have zeroes and I had > to use the letter 'O'. WOW 1's and O's - you where lucky! I had to use l's and O's. Of course I cheated and wrote out all my code long hand - that was when I was back in Egypt. I am sure you've seen some of my code 8-) > Tim. (selling his last of seven IMSAI's to a museum next week...) BC (starting to wonder what his old copy of IMSAI Fortran 70 is worth) From idavis at comland.com Fri Apr 18 00:05:25 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Generations and Hard/Soft sectoring Message-ID: <199704180510.AAA15244@ds9.comland.com> >WOW 1's and O's - you where lucky! I had to use l's and O's. >Of course I cheated and wrote out all my code long hand - that was when >I was back in Egypt. I am sure you've seen some of my code 8-) > You had 1's AND 0's? Back in my day, we only had 0's, and we liked it. I tried to get my parents to buy me some 1's, but they were just too much. Actually, I am 28, and learned to program in basic. I am just now taking the time to learn assembler on my atari 800. I have wanted to learn for the last 14 years, but I think that some of the latter experience that I have gotten has made it to where I think I can tackle assembly language. In the "old fart" category, I just helped my next door neighbor get his first computer, a classic of course, and he is in his early 60's. He's pretty excited, and so am I. While we are on the subject of disks, I got a bag of 5 1/4" disks from a friend, and they are mostly DSHD. I have been able to format most of them, but there are a select few that my Atari SSSD drive will not format. Do you think that I could format them with a different machine, or pass them under a magnet and get them to where my atari could format them? I hate to throw them away, and I'm not that technical when it comes to magnetic properties and such. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Apr 18 01:18:53 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Double-density floppy availability In-Reply-To: <199704180510.AAA15244@ds9.comland.com> from "Isaac Davis" at Apr 18, 97 00:05:25 am Message-ID: <9704180518.AA15783@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 614 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970417/51b3239a/attachment-0001.ksh From dastar at crl.com Fri Apr 18 01:01:54 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: <9704180302.AA13118@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > What - you had an assembler? I have to toggle in ones and > zeroes. Before that we didn't even have zeroes and I had > to use the letter 'O'. I have that Dilbert clipped and tucked away somehwere. That one is an all-time favorite. > Tim. (selling his last of seven IMSAI's to a museum next week...) Ah, IMSAIs. And seven of them! I hope to someday find one of these. It is one of the classic microcomputer/mini's. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Fri Apr 18 01:07:57 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: I have an Atari 2600 carthridge question: I bought a couple at a swap meet that don't "boot" up. When I turn the unit on the screen either is black or has random vertical color bars on the screen. They are both Activision games. Any suggestions? I tried opening them but can't without ruining the label. I guess a working cart is worth more than a ruined label, but I'm hoping there's a better way if there is some way to fix them. Hey, let's have a contest. Let's see who can score the best lot of classic computers this weekend. We can score each other based on the type and age of the computers/software/accessories we got, then tally up the points and whoever has the highest score gets a pat on the back. The point to such a silly game is that it will promote the preservation of old computers. It will get us out there finding these lost souls and keeping them safe for future generations. And believe me, there's nothing more gratifying then a good weekend out hunting for good old computers! (Well, there are at least a few things more gratifying :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From starling at umr.edu Fri Apr 18 03:26:57 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa...? In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at Apr 17, 97 05:48:31 pm Message-ID: <199704180826.DAA18097@saucer.cc.umr.edu> I will soon be aquiring an Apple Lisa... whee! So in the mean time, I'm trying to find out as much info about them as I can. There are several greal Lisa web sites, but I still have some unanswered questions. - Does anyone here own one? - Anyone know of any Lisa-specific mailing lists? - Has the copy protection on original system disks and program disks ever been cracked? (for those that don't know, the first time an original disk is used in a Lisa, it apparantly stamps the disk with its serial number, preventing other Lisae from using it). - Are there any other "workshops" other than Pascal Workshop, Cobol Workshop, and BASIC Workshop? A nice C Workshop would be handy, but the language hadn't really fallen into general use by micro users at that time. - Was any 3rd party software ever released for the Lisa? - Why did Apple decide NOT to put memory protection & preemptive multitasking in the Mac when the Lisa had it? I guess that's enough for now... :) If there actually are any Lisa owners out there, I'll probably have plenty of questions for you once I get the thing two weeks from now. Luckily, it comes with a complete Office 7/7 setup & a Profile drive, so the copy protection isn't a problem. chris From David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov Fri Apr 18 07:46:08 1997 From: David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov (David_A._Vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers Message-ID: <9703188613.AA861373068@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> >I'm seriously outside of =20. more like =20 +25(next week). Me too. I'll hit 43 in June. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From gram at cnct.com Fri Apr 18 07:50:05 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Tim. (selling his last of seven IMSAI's to a museum next week...) > > Ah, IMSAIs. And seven of them! I hope to someday find one of these. It > is one of the classic microcomputer/mini's. So what happened to the first six? Wouldn't mind one myself. Back when they were available, an enlisted man's pay wouldn't qualify me for the loan to get one from the local Byte Shop. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Fri Apr 18 07:53:58 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Hey, let's have a contest. Let's see who can score the best lot of > classic computers this weekend. We can score each other based on the > type and age of the computers/software/accessories we got, then tally up > the points and whoever has the highest score gets a pat on the back. The > point to such a silly game is that it will promote the preservation of > old computers. It will get us out there finding these lost souls and > keeping them safe for future generations. And believe me, there's > nothing more gratifying then a good weekend out hunting for good old > computers! (Well, there are at least a few things more gratifying :) Sorry, can't participate this weekend. I'm saving all of my money till _next_ weekend at the Trenton Computer Festival swap meet. Even then I'll have to restrain myself a bit or I won't be able to afford to rent the U-Haul. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Fri Apr 18 08:16:55 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring Message-ID: <199704181316.AA14983@bs014.swec.com> On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:02:43 -0800, Mr Shoppa graced us with these words of wisdom: > What - you had an assembler? I have to toggle in ones and > zeroes. Before that we didn't even have zeroes and I had > to use the letter 'O'. Ah, good lad! I understand that in some parts of the world the use of the numeral "0" (zero) is still regarded as heresy. You may have saved your life that way. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From idavis at comland.com Fri Apr 18 09:14:22 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Double-density floppy availability Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970418141422.008ece98@mail.comland.com > At 10:18 PM 4/17/97 -0800, you wrote: >> While we are on the subject of disks, I got a bag of 5 1/4" disks from a >> friend, and they are mostly DSHD. I have been able to format most of them, >> but there are a select few that my Atari SSSD drive will not format. > >Yeah, well, I wouldn't trust the HD ones you did manage to format. >It just isn't worth the risk when double-density floppies are >still readily available. > >Are people finding it hard to get double-density floppies? I have >access to several thousand new-sealed-in-boxes up here. If you've >been unable to find any, let me know and I'll ship ship out some >boxes. > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > > I will try to find some locally. I definitely don't need more than a couple hundred, if that many. I have some old work of mine that I would hate to loose. I have had these disks since the early 80's, and they all seem to be in perfect condition, but you never know when they will go bad. Anyone have any suggestions, of places to go to get boxed SD or DD floppies in bulk? I will start looking around, and if I find a place, I will post it. Thanks for the advice about the HD floppies being different than DD or SD. I will definitely reserve those for scratch disks. That was exactly the answer I was looking for. Thanks for the help. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From transit at primenet.com Fri Apr 18 09:50:44 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Disks (was: Re: Generations and Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: <199704180510.AAA15244@ds9.comland.com> Message-ID: > > While we are on the subject of disks, I got a bag of 5 1/4" disks from a > friend, and they are mostly DSHD. I have been able to format most of them, > but there are a select few that my Atari SSSD drive will not format. Do you > think that I could format them with a different machine, or pass them under > a magnet and get them to where my atari could format them? I hate to throw > them away, and I'm not that technical when it comes to magnetic properties > and such. Generally, I've found that the High Density disks are all but unusable in these older computers/disk drives. . .found that out the hard way when I bought a C128 with a 1751 disk drive, and tried to format some HD disks . ..for a while I thought the disk drive was broken! From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Apr 18 11:27:27 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa...? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20492EC50@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | - Has the copy protection on original system disks and program disks ever | been cracked? (for those that don't know, the first time an original | disk is used in a Lisa, it apparantly stamps the disk with its serial | number, preventing other Lisae from using it). You need to find someone with an un-installed set of Lisa diskettes and copy them with an Option Board. Kai From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Apr 18 11:31:43 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20492EC54@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | What - you had an assembler? I have to toggle in ones and | zeroes. Before that we didn't even have zeroes and I had | to use the letter 'O'. Y'know, that's not far from the truth. I was looking at some of my old Teletype listings the other day and realized it had a line through the O instead of through the 0, therefore it really did look like we were using O's for zeroes! | Tim. (selling his last of seven IMSAI's to a museum next week...) Whew, I guess I just got under the wire there! See ya Sunday... Kai From dastar at crl.com Fri Apr 18 13:19:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa...? In-Reply-To: <199704180826.DAA18097@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Starling wrote: > > I will soon be aquiring an Apple Lisa... whee! Congratulations. Is it the original Lisa, the Lisa2 or the Lisa XL? > So in the mean time, I'm trying to find out as much info about them as I > can. There are several greal Lisa web sites, but I still have some > unanswered questions. > > - Does anyone here own one? Yes. But as for the rest of your questions, I don't know. I've booted mine several times but I think the HD is crashed and I only have one boot-up disk that doesn't do anything. Other than that, I know next to nothing about the Lisa. Someday when I have 25 hours in a day, I'll finally be able to sit down and play with it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From starling at umr.edu Fri Apr 18 14:20:37 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa...? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 18, 97 11:19:37 am Message-ID: <199704181920.OAA15112@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > Congratulations. Is it the original Lisa, the Lisa2 or the Lisa XL? It's a Lisa 2. As I understand it, Lisa 1s are near-impossible to find and Mac XLs (Lisa XLs) aren't all that common either. Heh. ANY Lisa is a happy little score for me. I haven't gotten a new machine in a couple MONTHS now. (never let school get in the way of your fun) > But as for the rest of your questions, I don't know. I've booted mine > several times but I think the HD is crashed and I only have one boot-up > disk that doesn't do anything. Other than that, I know next to nothing > about the Lisa. Someday when I have 25 hours in a day, I'll finally be > able to sit down and play with it. Yeah... I'm hoping to have some time this summer to play with my new toy. I went through a bit of trouble (but not too much expense) to aquire the system, so it's pretty important to me. It's going to get the desk that is currently home to my beloved (and souped-up) Amiga 500. I'm really really hoping to get my hands on the Pascal Workshop and practice my Pascal skills once again. The Lisa is one of those antiques micros that's still quite usable for doing stuff (like a C64 or a tricked-out CoCo) and I plan to put the machine to use. *ling From idavis at comland.com Fri Apr 18 16:58:44 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: I wish I lived in MA. Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970418215844.008f4a8c@mail.comland.com > Just browsing through the newsgroup, and if anyone lives in or around Cambridge, MA. Here's a good deal for the weekend. Hope this helps someone. I really wished I lived there. I wonder if I could drive there from Austin, TX and make it in time. Oh well, maybe next time. ======================================================== Subject: Atari 800 System/Software Giveaway at MIT From: remler@ll.mit.edu (Rick Ferranti) Date: 1997/04/18 Message-Id: Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.8bit I have a complete Atari 800 system -- the 800 with 48K RAM, 810 disk drive, 1020 printer/plotter, P:R: Connection serial interface, joysticks, paddle controllers, cables, power supplies, and all original documentation. With this system comes many business programs and zillions of games, many still in their original boxes with documentation. Plus many indexed reference articles from the old 8-bit Atari magazines. The system is in excellent, working condition. I'm "selling" the package at the MIT Radio/Computer flea market on Sunday, April 20th, corner of Albany and Main Streets in Cambridge, MA. Doors open at 9:OO a.m. If you can tell me a good story on what you'd use this thing for, it's yours for the taking! Look for a beige '92 Camry. -- Rick ======================================================== With the diversity of people in this maillist, a good story should be pretty easy to come by. If anyone gets it, be sure and let us know "the story". Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From transit at primenet.com Fri Apr 18 19:38:57 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa...? In-Reply-To: <199704181920.OAA15112@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: By the way, how much did a Lisa cost new (back in 1983 or whenever)? I remember a price of about $16,000 . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 18 20:01:24 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Disks (was: Re: Generations and Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > Generally, I've found that the High Density disks are all but unusable in > these older computers/disk drives. . .found that out the hard way when I > bought a C128 with a 1751 disk drive, and tried to format some HD disks . > ..for a while I thought the disk drive was broken! I agree here. I've had exactly the same experience with 3.5" disks and went through the same hell trying to determine exactly what was wrong. But it still defies sense. Surely, if the disk has a higher density, it should be able to be formatted on a lower density drive. What's so different? --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 18 20:08:47 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20492EC54@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: > Y'know, that's not far from the truth. I was looking at some of my old > Teletype listings the other day and realized it had a line through the O > instead of through the 0, therefore it really did look like we were > using O's for zeroes! I have an old inkjet printer, a Canon A-1210. Out of ink of course, and you probably won't find ink cartridges anywhere on this planet. It's a colour job and has some weirdly low resolution (560 pixels horizontally? Don't remember -- NOT 560 pixels per inch, 560 pixels in total). Anyway, this thingy prints the letter O with a slash-like mark crossing the top-right part of the letter, making it look just like a Q flipped around the horizontal. The digit 0 is printed as a normal-looking 'O' (the printer doesn't have enough resolution to print it as a different shape oval, like most dot matrix printers of the same time did). And then there was the TI-99 with its square Os and round zeroes. Strange concept. :-) --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From danjo at xnet.com Fri Apr 18 20:36:32 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Disks (was: Re: Generations and Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > Generally, I've found that the High Density disks are all but unusable in > > these older computers/disk drives. . .found that out the hard way when I > > bought a C128 with a 1751 disk drive, and tried to format some HD disks . > > ..for a while I thought the disk drive was broken! > > I agree here. I've had exactly the same experience with 3.5" disks and > went through the same hell trying to determine exactly what was wrong. > > But it still defies sense. Surely, if the disk has a higher density, it > should be able to be formatted on a lower density drive. What's so > different? Aw come on! Think about it 8-) The media MUST be able to pack bits closer. (Higher density) Even at higher spindle speeds you have to flip the dipoles. You use higher current in the record head to get a bigger signal out of the read head. You do that be using a polished and *harder* (magnetically) medium. The old soft style head can not successfully record and the read head gain is too low the successfully read. BC From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 18 21:23:59 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Disks (was: Re: Generations and Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33582532.34688652@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:01:24 +0100 (BST), you wrote: >On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > >> Generally, I've found that the High Density disks are all but unusable in >> these older computers/disk drives. . .found that out the hard way when I >> bought a C128 with a 1751 disk drive, and tried to format some HD disks . >> ..for a while I thought the disk drive was broken! > > I agree here. I've had exactly the same experience with 3.5" disks and >went through the same hell trying to determine exactly what was wrong. > > But it still defies sense. Surely, if the disk has a higher density, it >should be able to be formatted on a lower density drive. What's so >different? Check the technical specs of floppies; the magnetic characteristics of 5.25" DD versus HD disks are different. They look similar but are very different. 3.5" disks seem to differ only in that extra hole, the specs are almost identical. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan at 10:23 a.m. on April 13th!!! (7lbs. 2oz., 19", lots of dark hair, and HEALTHY!) From dcoward at pressstart.com Fri Apr 18 22:44:13 1997 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (dcoward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: FAQ Message-ID: <199704190344.UAA26944@mx5.u.washington.edu> I was just reading the FAQ and thought that I should add my two cents. 6.1 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? Paper items: About a year ago, I found an Osborne Starter Kit in a thrift store. This is a ring bound manual and some audio cassettes to get a new user started, packaged in a flat cardboard box, the kind with a glossy surface. Well the box had been wrapped many times with that inch and a half clear packaging tape to prevent it from being opened. I knew that if I tried to remove the tape that I would remove most of the surface of the box too. Then I had an idea. I removed the manual and the tapes from the box by cutting the tape around the edge of the box. And then I put the box in the freezer for a few hours until it was nice and cold. I still had to be careful removing the tape but the tape didn't stick to the box as well as it did when it was warm. And it didn't leave any glue behind. The one that I havn't licked yet is how to remove crayon price marking from a paper diskette label or a book page without it smearing or bleeding into the paper. 7.4 What disk sizes are there? A floppy diskette is 8" in width. A mini floppy diskette is 5.25" in width. A micro floppy diskette is 3.5" in width. And computers like the Amstrad CPC6128 and the Sinclair ZX Spectrum+3 use a compact floppy diskette which is 3.15" or 8 cm in width. I also have diskettes made by Nintendo (the word Nintendo is embossed in the plastic) for the Nintendo Family Computer. I don't know what they're called and I haven't measured one yet, but as I remember they are just a little smaller than a micro floppy. ---------------------------------- My computer collection up on the web still needs a lot of work, but I'm looking for suggestions about: - the way it's laid out - are the pictures too big to download quickly - is there incorrect information If you can help me out, my collection is located at www.best.com/~dcoward/museum Thanks ---------------------------------- >>Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of >>this range? I'm 210 years old in computer years. ======================================================= dcoward@pressstart.com Doug Coward Senior Software Engineer Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale CA ======================================================= From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Apr 18 22:17:03 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa...? In-Reply-To: References: <199704181920.OAA15112@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970418201703.00f20a8c@agora.rdrop.com> At 05:38 PM 4/18/97 -0700, you wrote: > >By the way, how much did a Lisa cost new (back in 1983 or whenever)? >I remember a price of about $16,000 . . . > $9,995.00US at introduction in January of 1983. But that price did not include the 5mb ProFile hard drive which would set you back another $3,499.00US. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From zmerch at northernway.net Fri Apr 18 23:37:56 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: FAQ Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970419003754.002da8e8@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, dcoward happened to blather: > I was just reading the FAQ and thought that I should add my two cents. And I was just reading this post, and can add some wisdom as well... >7.4 What disk sizes are there? > > A floppy diskette is 8" in width. > A mini floppy diskette is 5.25" in width. > A micro floppy diskette is 3.5" in width. The *first* micro floppy was 3" in width. Yes, you heard me correctly. Amdek designed and built a SSDD 3" floppy drive around 1983-84 (or so... I'll have to look) that used it's own style of media (and it was flippy, unlike the 3.5" of today) and they interfaced it to and marketed it for two computers that I know of: The Radio Shack (Tandy) Color Computer, and The Atari 800. So far I've seen 2 Atari units for sale on the forsale newsgroups in the last 9 months or so, and altho I've never seen the CoCo version (on sale or anything) I have a color magazine ad advertising the system that I could scan in if I ever find the time... ================ Also, in the grand naming scheme above, just *what* would you call a 2" floppy? Yessireebob, a 2" floppy! I *own* one of these drives... they were used in the Zenith MiniSport 8088-based IBM/clone laptop. Cute little rascals... someday I'll take a pic or two and scan 'em in... Specs: 2" floppy, 80 Track, DSDD 720K formatted storage capacity. (I don't know the TPI or anything... may look into that if possible...) I hope this helps to enlighten folks just a little bit more... Have a Golfy Day! "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From ronaldm at mars.ark.com Sat Apr 19 00:10:58 1997 From: ronaldm at mars.ark.com (Ron Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers Message-ID: <199704190510.WAA03641@mars.ark.com> >In a message dated 97-04-14 22:27:40 EDT, you write: > >> > >Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of=20 >> > >this range? >> > >I'm seriously outside of =20. more like =20 +25(next week). > >Lou Just a young man are you. Last week I turned 53. -Ron Mitchell From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Sat Apr 19 05:33:57 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers Message-ID: <199704191033.GAA23974@wincom.net> At 10:10 PM 4/18/97 -0700, you wrote: >>In a message dated 97-04-14 22:27:40 EDT, you write: >> >>> > >Is everyone else in their 20's and 30's? Anyone seriously outside of=20 >>> > >this range? >>> > >>I'm seriously outside of =20. more like =20 +25(next week). >> >>Lou > >Just a young man are you. > >Last week I turned 53. > > -Ron Mitchell > I turned seventy two about a month age! Charlie Fox From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 19 06:07:38 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: FAQ In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970419003754.002da8e8@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > The *first* micro floppy was 3" in width. Yes, you heard me correctly. > Amdek designed and built a SSDD 3" floppy drive around 1983-84 (or so... > I'll have to look) that used it's own style of media (and it was flippy, > unlike the 3.5" of today) and they interfaced it to and marketed it for two > computers that I know of: > > The Radio Shack (Tandy) Color Computer, and > The Atari 800. Also used on the Oric computers (Oric-1, Oric Atmos and Oric Telestrat [aka Stratos]) and the Amstrad CPC, PCW and CPC Plus series. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From chris at thanatos.yawc.net Fri Apr 18 10:06:03 1997 From: chris at thanatos.yawc.net (Chris Skates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: FAQ In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.32.19970419003754.002da8e8@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <199704191419.PAA26305@thanatos.yawc.net> > Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:07:38 +0100 (BST) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Alexios Chouchoulas > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: FAQ > On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > The *first* micro floppy was 3" in width. Yes, you heard me correctly. > > Amdek designed and built a SSDD 3" floppy drive around 1983-84 (or so... > > I'll have to look) that used it's own style of media (and it was flippy, > > unlike the 3.5" of today) and they interfaced it to and marketed it for two > > computers that I know of: > > > > The Radio Shack (Tandy) Color Computer, and > > The Atari 800. > > Also used on the Oric computers (Oric-1, Oric Atmos and Oric Telestrat > [aka Stratos]) and the Amstrad CPC, PCW and CPC Plus series. And the Einstein luggable among other things, 3" disks were very tough little bleeders, chuck 'em against a wall and they'd still be okay. 2" floppies were mentioned, I distantly remember those and I think there was an early digital camera that used those too. How many photos they could sqeeze into 720K is anyone's guess! - /-------------------------------------------------------------------\ | The Lost One, Thanatos admin and all round good egg | You can't | | Contact Thanatos BBS on *http://thanatos.yawc.net, | fool me. | | *ftp://thanatos.yawc.net or | There ain't | | *telnet://thanatos.yawc.net | no Sanity | | | Clause! | \-------------------------------------------------------------------/ From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Sat Apr 19 09:40:49 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers In-Reply-To: <199704190510.WAA03641@mars.ark.com> References: <199704190510.WAA03641@mars.ark.com> Message-ID: <335ad8e7.833157@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:10:58 -0700, you wrote: >Last week I turned 53. > > -Ron Mitchell > 1944 was a very good year! 8-) _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan at 10:23 a.m. on April 13th!!! (7lbs. 2oz., 19", lots of dark hair, and HEALTHY!) From transit at primenet.com Sat Apr 19 09:47:14 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa...? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970418201703.00f20a8c@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: > >By the way, how much did a Lisa cost new (back in 1983 or whenever)? > >I remember a price of about $16,000 . . . > > > > $9,995.00US at introduction in January of 1983. But that price did not > include the 5mb ProFile hard drive which would set you back another > $3,499.00US. $3,500 for *5* megabytes? That's $700 per megabyte! When I think about it, then look at the Zip drive on my desk ($150 for 100 megabytes = $1.50 per megabyte). . . Now, what was that old saying about "If cars were like computers, they'd cost about $50 now. . ." From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 19 12:43:49 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Disks (was: Re: Generations and Hard/Soft sectoring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > Aw come on! Think about it 8-) Thinking? I'm running out of brain cells. I predict that by the end of my final exams next week, I'll be so brainless that I'll even like being the manager of immense software companies making GUIs and calling them operating systems. :-) Anyway, it wouldn't have helped! I was making the wrong assumptions. > The media MUST be able to pack bits closer. (Higher density) > Even at higher spindle speeds you have to flip the dipoles. > You use higher current in the record head to get a bigger signal > out of the read head. > You do that be using a polished and *harder* (magnetically) medium. > The old soft style head can not successfully record and the read > head gain is too low the successfully read. *NOW* I know. :-) I was under the impression that the media simply had higher resolution. The way you put it, it's obvious. It really is a good thing I still have a lot of DD diskettes at home. I'm sure I could locate tons more if I need them -- old PC users usually have loads of them. Most would be pleased to `part' with that old `junk' (sic), especially if they get money for it. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From dastar at crl.com Sat Apr 19 13:00:54 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers In-Reply-To: <335ad8e7.833157@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > On Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:10:58 -0700, you wrote: > > >Last week I turned 53. > > > > -Ron Mitchell > > > > 1944 was a very good year! 8-) Um, I don't want to rain on anyone's birthday, but there hasn't been a whole lot of classic computer discussion going on this past week with everyone sounding off about their age. I recommend checking out Doug Coward's classic computer museum at: http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum He's got a nice diverse selection of old computers and stuff and a lot of pictures. Some of the systems he has I have absolutely never heard of, and they are just beautiful (it's nice being able to actually see them). He also has little tidbits of history for some companies. It's cool that there are so many people interested in classic computers. I hope someday we can have conventions where we can get together to discuss the preservation of the machines much like we are discussing in this mailing list. We could have workshops on how to store data medium, how to repair blown components on the motherboard, we could have trading zones for people who need to get system software for the various computers they have, and then their would be people buying/selling/trading their old computers. Hmmm...this would be a cool thing. Maybe when I have 26 hours in a day I will organize the first one. What do you all think? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From starling at umr.edu Sat Apr 19 16:25:15 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Computer Prices (was Apple Lisa) In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Apr 19, 97 07:47:14 am Message-ID: <199704192125.QAA11012@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > Now, what was that old saying about "If cars were like computers, they'd > cost about $50 now. . ." True... but you'd be driving a Model T. It's interesting, though, that throughout the life of the Home Computer, its cost has always been around $1,500.00. I'm talking about the cost of the averagely configured machine for home use. As technology progresses, people want the most money can buy, within a home budget. And it seems like the price has always been around $1,500.00. I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions to this little rule of thumb, but it pretty much holds true. That seems to be the breaking point where average {Joe|Jane} user say, "Nope... too much, lemme look at the next cheaper model." * From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Apr 19 17:31:49 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:15 2005 Subject: Seeking.... (this week) Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970419153149.00cd9b14@agora.rdrop.com> To fill a gap in the Heathkit section of my collection: Heath (H10?) Paper Tape Reader/Punch unit. Any out there??? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Apr 19 19:05:40 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Computer Prices (was Apple Lisa) In-Reply-To: <199704192125.QAA11012@saucer.cc.umr.edu> from "Starling" at Apr 19, 97 04:25:15 pm Message-ID: <9704192305.AA23000@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 434 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970419/67dc0e8c/attachment-0001.ksh From dastar at crl.com Sat Apr 19 21:28:30 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Computer Prices (was Apple Lisa) In-Reply-To: <199704192125.QAA11012@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Starling wrote: > It's interesting, though, that throughout the life of the Home Computer, > its cost has always been around $1,500.00. I'm talking about the cost of > the averagely configured machine for home use. As technology progresses, That's if you're talking IBMs, Apples, etc. There are plenty examples of cheap, home computers for less than $500 such as atari 800's, Commodore 64's, etc. Of course, some would argue that, compared to IBM's and Apples, those aren't "real" computers. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sat Apr 19 23:06:01 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: FAQ In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970419003754.002da8e8@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: Just re-reading an old Compute! article (March '84) It says that at the time there were "disagreements" as to which size of microfloppy should be "standard" It lists sizes of 3" 3 1/4" and 3 1/2" Interestingly enough, the article also mentions advances in "vertical recording techniques." One of the companies listed was supposed to be introducing a 5 1/4" disk that could hold approximately 6.5 megs of data. Anything ever come of this? Also mentioned were laserdisk interfaces for Commodore 64's and Apple II's purrrty neat! Les From starling at umr.edu Sat Apr 19 23:07:55 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: FAQ In-Reply-To: <199704190344.UAA26944@mx5.u.washington.edu> from "dcoward" at Apr 18, 97 08:44:13 pm Message-ID: <199704200407.XAA03897@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > The one that I havn't licked yet is how to remove crayon price marking > from a paper diskette label or a book page without it smearing or bleeding > into the paper. Grease Pencil (the paper-bound kind you unwrap) comes off of glossy cartridge labels and cartridges themselves quite happily with just alcohol. However, I'm not sure about actual crayons... especially on porous paper. Perhaps it'd be a great boost to the Collecting Community to do a methodical study of the removal of various types of price markings on various kinds of surfaces. If I ever had time... From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sat Apr 19 23:15:39 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Computer Prices (was Apple Lisa) In-Reply-To: <199704192125.QAA11012@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Starling wrote: > > Now, what was that old saying about "If cars were like computers, they'd > > cost about $50 now. . ." > > True... but you'd be driving a Model T. > > It's interesting, though, that throughout the life of the Home Computer, > its cost has always been around $1,500.00. I'm talking about the cost of > the averagely configured machine for home use. As technology progresses, > people want the most money can buy, within a home budget. And it seems > like the price has always been around $1,500.00. I'm sure there are > plenty of exceptions to this little rule of thumb, but it pretty much > holds true. That seems to be the breaking point where average {Joe|Jane} > user say, "Nope... too much, lemme look at the next cheaper model." > Some bits of useless trivia: Found some old ads, enjoy! November 1985, ad for PC-AT $4675 yikes! October 1992, ad for Commodore Amiga 3000T $5998 !!!!!!! Im glad those prices haven't stuck around!!! Les From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Apr 20 06:21:01 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: PET stuff Message-ID: Does anyone out there know much about the old PET 2001 machines? I received a PET a couple of years ago, in which all of the 6550 SRAMs were fried. I replaced them with the chips from another PET 2001 (one with the miniature keyboard, from 1977) and the system worked fine. Does anyone know how all of the memory chips could've been killed? I tried them in various patterns in the sockets, and it does seem as if all 16 of them are fried. Anyway, is it still possible to get 6550s anywhere? And if not, is there a replacement that could be used? Even better: Can I simply replace the 6550s with another type of chip and get more RAM in the system? Most of my software works in 8K, but I do have some music files that require more. (I have one of those external music boards that plugs into the cassette2 and user ports, that delivers four voices.) Now, another question. With that same PET, came an expansion board of some kind. Its like a daughterboard, physically mounted on posts above the motherboard, but connected via the memory expansion connector on the side. It appears (yes) to be a memory board, with 16 RAM chips on it. At least, they look like they could be RAM chips, judging by the traces on the board. However, I've never seen RAM chips with gold contacts and gold plates on their backs before, as six of these chips have, so I'm wondering if this could be more than just a memory board. The board is dead, BTW. The PET won't operate with the board plugged in. It just comes up with a screenful of garbage characters. The board plugs directly into the PETs power supply, and then a cable leads from it to the PET motherboard's power connector. There are three large 470uF capacitors and two things that I guess are voltage regulators (I don't know much about electronics :) ), so I'm guessing that this board has its own refresh circuitry on it and it uses DRAM, but that could be totally wrong. :) Both connectors on the cable that leads from the expansion board to the motherboard are noticeably burnt. In both cases, the burn marks surround the pin that connects to the black wire. The only identifying mark on the board is the text: R 3014 rev. C COPYRIGHT 1978 R.C.Factor Does anyone have any better guesses than me as to its function? (Can the edge connector on the side of the PET be used for anything other than RAM expansion?) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From dynasoar at mindspring.com Sun Apr 20 15:19:30 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: yo References: Message-ID: <335A7A51.8DC@mindspring.com> > On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Hey, let's have a contest. Let's see who can score the best lot of > > classic computers this weekend. We can score each other based on the > > type and age of the computers/software/accessories we got, then tally up > > the points and whoever has the highest score gets a pat on the back. Okay, flea markets and yard sales were slim this weekend around Rocky Mount, NC....but here's my entry in the contest: 1 Commodore C2N Cassette datarecorder (the round, sleekly styled later model, not the chunky,squared older version) found in flea market in Wilson, NC...... price $1.00 Kirk dynasoar@mindspring.com From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Sun Apr 20 15:04:56 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: On Generations of People and Computers In-Reply-To: <199704191033.GAA23974@wincom.net> Message-ID: > >Just a young man are you. > > > >Last week I turned 53. > > > > -Ron Mitchell > > > > I turned seventy two about a month age! > > Charlie Fox Now come on! When I named this the Classic Computers List I was talking about the machines - not the people that use them!!! ;)))) ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 20 19:36:31 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: FAQ In-Reply-To: <199704200407.XAA03897@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Starling wrote: > Perhaps it'd be a great boost to the Collecting Community to do a > methodical study of the removal of various types of price markings on > various kinds of surfaces. If I ever had time... I'm sure that more `conventional' (sic) collectors and museum curators have extremely well-documented methods for doing all sorts of things like that, including protecting paper and cleaning materials. Now, if only we could get a good source... --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 20 19:46:10 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: [...] > I recommend checking out Doug Coward's classic computer museum at: > > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum > > He's got a nice diverse selection of old computers and stuff and a lot of > pictures. Some of the systems he has I have absolutely never heard of, > and they are just beautiful (it's nice being able to actually see them). > He also has little tidbits of history for some companies. I second that motion. :-) Just been there and I liked it! It's a pity his page can't be reached from most search engines (or is too new to have been indexed yet). I wonder how many other such great pages there are... > It's cool that there are so many people interested in classic computers. I heard/read somewhere (can't remember my source, so shoot me) that collecting computers is becoming some sort of mainstream hobby. Must have been `Triumph of the Nerds'. An image of a complete luser utterly destroying a PDP-8 in the process of `restoration' comes to mind. Hopefully most such people can be convinced that these computers are useless since they don't run Winblows 95, so they'll leave them alone. :-) --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From dastar at crl.com Sun Apr 20 20:03:52 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > > It's cool that there are so many people interested in classic computers. > > I heard/read somewhere (can't remember my source, so shoot me) that > collecting computers is becoming some sort of mainstream hobby. Must have > been `Triumph of the Nerds'. An image of a complete luser utterly destroying This totally sucks in one respect because I've been into this since before it became a "hobby", and it's always been relatively easy to get sweet old computers for rock bottom prices because people were happy to dump them off. Now that your typical dork who saw that show is going to want to start collecting also, the prices for this junk is going to start running up. It's going to became a fad, and soon it will become in vogue for every geeky computer professional to "own a classic". Then the yuppies will come in and try to snatch up all the really classic stuff and use them as centerpieces in their living room. Visitor: Gee, Tom, whatcha got there? Tom: Its a Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-11. I paid $10,000 for it at an antique auction. I'm preserving a piece of computing history you know! Visitor: Wow! Tom: Want to see my Commodore collection? At least I hope this doesn't become the case, because I do this because I truly love the machines I collect and am truly fascinated by them and am truly sincere about preserving them and keeping them alive. I think we can all say that. But once it starts becoming mainstream then it becomes a way for cheezy people at swap meets to command outrageous prices for old computer junk. I already see it happening on AuctionWeb. > a PDP-8 in the process of `restoration' comes to mind. Hopefully most such > people can be convinced that these computers are useless since they don't > run Winblows 95, so they'll leave them alone. :-) One could only hope. Visitor: So, how much RAM does this baby have? Tom: Well, the guy I bought it from said 32"K", but I think he meant 32 "Megs". Visitor: Yeah, how can you run Windows on 32K? He must've been wrong! Tom: Yeah, totally. Now I wish I could figure out where to insert the CD ROM. This big 8 inch slot doesn't seem to accept it very well. On another note, I'm a total boob! The "IBM PC/XT" I bought from a swap meet for $7 is not. The only thing "IBM" about it is the full height floppy 5.25" drive. Other than that its just a lame Taiwanese compatible. It even has DOS 5.0 on the hard drive! Nothing classic about that. I was expecting 3.3 at the LATEST. I did get an IBM XT keyboard with it that is IBM, but it doesn't work(!) Oh well, live and learn. At least it works, but it wasn't even worth the $7 I paid for it. Bleah. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Apr 20 20:10:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <335A7A51.8DC@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Robert Kirk Scott wrote: > > On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > > Hey, let's have a contest. Let's see who can score the best lot of > > > classic computers this weekend. We can score each other based on the > > > type and age of the computers/software/accessories we got, then tally up > > > the points and whoever has the highest score gets a pat on the back. > > Okay, flea markets and yard sales were slim this weekend around Rocky > Mount, > NC....but here's my entry in the contest: > > 1 Commodore C2N Cassette datarecorder (the round, sleekly styled later > model, not the > chunky,squared older version) found in flea market in Wilson, NC...... > price $1.00 Well you win. I spent the whole day sitting on my ass in front of my computer. BTW, I have one of those datacorders also. I think this would be a fun thing to do still. If anyone else is interested, speak up, or write to me directly via e-mail. Then we don't have to bother anyone else in the discussion with our silly little game. We could pick a date (a weekend) and then assign some sparse rules and then do it. It would be fun. Contact me if interested. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From zmerch at northernway.net Sun Apr 20 20:47:53 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970420214751.00a055a0@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, Sam Ismail happened to blather: >I think this would be a fun thing to do still. If anyone else is >interested, speak up, or write to me directly via e-mail. Then we don't >have to bother anyone else in the discussion with our silly little game. >We could pick a date (a weekend) and then assign some sparse rules and >then do it. It would be fun. Contact me if interested. Actually, I think this would be a fun "silly little game" except in my case the time frame needs to be improved *greatly*. Where I live, garage sales haven't even started yet! (Why, you may ask... for some reason, people don't want to set their "prized possesions" out in 2' of snow!) What would be fun for me is if the contest ran for a month, or even the whole summer... then those of use in the "boonies" might have a chance... 'cause for now, you win. Tough to enter a contest when they don't offer it in your area! Also, if it was over a month's span, then I might even be able to take a road trip to a larger (read: civilized) area to do some scrounging... and mebbe hit some thrift stores, as well. How's this sound, folks? "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Sun Apr 20 20:45:45 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Contest (was Re: yo) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <335ac629.2574060@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 18:10:55 -0700 (PDT), someone said: >I think this would be a fun thing to do still. If anyone else is >interested, speak up, or write to me directly via e-mail. Then we don't >have to bother anyone else in the discussion with our silly little game. >We could pick a date (a weekend) and then assign some sparse rules and >then do it. It would be fun. Contact me if interested. > >Sam I say keep it on the list, especially if you're willing to sell/trade. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe now and to Tegan at 10:23 a.m. on April 13th!!! (7lbs. 2oz., 19", lots of dark hair, and HEALTHY!) From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sun Apr 20 23:14:59 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah yes, but there IS one good thing about it. We can wait and then seel those very same idiots something like a commodore 64 for $5000 and laugh our asses off. (Not to mention the fact that we'd have 5 more in the back room for more idiots!) Les From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 21 07:27:33 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > We can wait and then seel those very same idiots something like > a commodore 64 for $5000 and laugh our asses off. (Not to > mention the fact that we'd have 5 more in the back room for > more idiots!) Aha! You have a point! Anyone remember the time when Osborne-1s were supposedly rare and were priced at around $1,000-$10,000? Ha ha. Nice joke. Mind you, they're somewhat uncommon in Europe. I've only seen one of them at a flea market and I didn't buy it. But then again I probably didn't have enough money (items at flea markets are priced in direct proportion to bulk/weight, alas) and I wasn't even into collecting then (I was seriously tempted to start, though!). --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 21 07:49:07 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Well you win. I spent the whole day sitting on my ass in front of my > computer. BTW, I have one of those datacorders also. Well, since we're into hardware acquisition dick wars, this weekend has been very profitable for me, at least. Got a Commodore Plus/4 (only seen one of those and it was going for 2.00 UKP), a nice Toshiba MSX machine (love the BASIC, Microsoft though it is) and a Radofin video game (another one... hm). Spent a total of 12 UKP. I guess I could have bargained a bit. Oh, I didn't get a(nother) Sinclair Spectrum +2A, but they seem to be everywhere. Also, there's this poor guy trying to sell his Amstrad PC-1640 (crappy so-and-so PC compatible). That 1640 has been sitting around for at least two weeks now. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 21 07:35:26 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 Message-ID: I remembered a message here about pricing and video games yesterday. Someone had an Atari 2600 (the new, revamped, black type) at the car boot sale in Edinburgh yesterday. He explained to me that this was a "games computer" with around 8 carts (lemmesee, Pacman, Ms. Pacman, Pole Position, etc. -- ooh, rare). The price: 20.00 UKP (around $30?). Surely, these people are joking. I didn't even want to haggle for a new VCS. Now, if it was the *OLD* type, I might have been interested (I don't normally collect this stuff, but the old VCS has sentimental value -- I played my first game of Space Invaders on one). Unfortunately, at another flea market, another time and another country (and anyway, the wench is dead), an original VCS was going for around $100, with extremely common carts selling for as much as $25. Amazing. Almost as expensive as the thing when it first came out. :-) My theory for this is that game machines haven't changed all that much in the last 20 years: still a box, still take carts (or CD-ROMs nowadays), still have joysticks. What the heck, it must be worth something, right? Whereas computers have changed so dramatically that your average car boot sale joe will sell an old `computer keyboard' (probably a ZX-80) for peanuts since it doesn't appear to have a monitor or a CD-ROM or Winblows installed. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 21 07:44:56 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > This totally sucks in one respect because I've been into this since > before it became a "hobby", and it's always been relatively easy to get > sweet old computers for rock bottom prices because people were happy to > dump them off. Now that your typical dork who saw that show is going to > want to start collecting also, the prices for this junk is going to start > running up. It all depends. No reason to panic until you see people ogling at your newly-acquired IMSAI with a mad look in their eyes, reaching for their wallets at the same time. :-) There's no such thing as a market for old computers, hence no real communication between the people who sell their old junk (sic) at garage sales and such. Even if collecting becomes totally mainstream, with glossy mags and tons of clubs and other such abominations, it'll take time before prices start rising. > Visitor: Gee, Tom, whatcha got there? > Tom: Its a Digital Equipment Corporation PDP-11. I paid $10,000 for it > at an antique auction. I'm preserving a piece of computing history you know! > Visitor: Wow! > Tom: Want to see my Commodore collection? Argh! Mercy! Can't stop laughing! :-) > At least I hope this doesn't become the case, because I do this because I > truly love the machines I collect and am truly fascinated by them and am > truly sincere about preserving them and keeping them alive. I think we > can all say that. But once it starts becoming mainstream then it becomes > a way for cheezy people at swap meets to command outrageous prices for > old computer junk. I already see it happening on AuctionWeb. If it does become mainstream (though I doubt it will, not in the very near future), we have another reason to be more aggressive in collecting. So far, we're rescuing old iron, minis, micros and what not from the disgusting tentacles of "computer recycling" and the dump. If mainstream Microsoft droids start collecting, we'll have to rescue old hardware from THEIR filthy claws as well. I don't mind losing a machine to another collector -- and this has often happened in the past. But I do mind losing it to someone who wants it for the parts or for fun (aka disassembling it). Fear and loathing. > Visitor: So, how much RAM does this baby have? > Tom: Well, the guy I bought it from said 32"K", but I think he meant 32 > "Megs". > Visitor: Yeah, how can you run Windows on 32K? He must've been wrong! > Tom: Yeah, totally. Now I wish I could figure out where to insert the CD > ROM. This big 8 inch slot doesn't seem to accept it very well. Sam, this kind of ignorance is the stuff the world is made from. Granted, the feelings it evokes range from amusement to rage, but it's still nothing to worry about. There are always cretins. I'd start to worry when Tom above decides to "maintain" his machine and ruins a possibly rare machine out of ignorance. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 21 08:20:13 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > >By the way, how much did a Lisa cost new (back in 1983 or whenever)? > > >I remember a price of about $16,000 . . . > > > > $9,995.00US at introduction in January of 1983. But that price did not > > include the 5mb ProFile hard drive which would set you back another > > $3,499.00US. > > $3,500 for *5* megabytes? That's $700 per megabyte! Jeez. In '81 when Radio Shack came out with their 8.4 MB hard drives for the Model II, the first was $4,495 and the next three were only $3,495 each (since they didn't come with a controller). With a full-blown system of 35 MB for $15,000, that wasn't much over $500/MB. Of course, we thought we'd never be able to fill even one of those disks, what with everything having to fit in 64 KB RAM. Of course, then Xenix for the Model 16 showed up and we found there was a way... > When I think about it, then look at the Zip drive on my desk > ($150 for 100 megabytes = $1.50 per megabyte). . . Yeah, my fiance and I have two of those, they're so handy. But a couple of weeks ago I happened to notice that 4 GB IDE drives are now dropping below $400. A dime per meg. I could cry. And I'll probably be picking up a couple soon for some of my non-classic computers -- Linux can fill any storage surplus you let it near. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 21 08:23:49 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > It all depends. No reason to panic until you see people ogling at your > newly-acquired IMSAI with a mad look in their eyes, reaching for their > wallets at the same time. :-) > It's when you see that mad look in their eyes and they're reaching for their guns... -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From kevan at motiv.co.uk Mon Apr 21 08:56:58 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa Power Supply... Message-ID: <199704211357.OAA17267@cream.motiv.co.uk> Hi, While I have the attention of Lisa owners with the other thread I thought I may make this request... I have owned a Lisa 2 for a number of years now, but unfortunately it has a mostly broken power supply unit. Over this time I seem to have got close to finding spares or schematics more times than I care to remember, only to be let down at the last minute. (Sorry, sob story over now.) It is a complex beast and I don't have the technical know how to fix the problem, but I do have friends, who are skilled electronic engineers, who say they can do it with the schematics. Has anybody got the schematics for a Lisa 2 power supply? Failing this has anybody got a working spare they are willing to part with? Or do you know of a cheap source of them? Many thanks... -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Apr 21 09:29:30 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Cost per Meg... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970421102930.008eb240@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers said: >On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > >> When I think about it, then look at the Zip drive on my desk >> ($150 for 100 megabytes = $1.50 per megabyte). . . > >Yeah, my fiance and I have two of those, they're so handy. But a couple >of weeks ago I happened to notice that 4 GB IDE drives are now dropping >below $400. A dime per meg. I could cry. And I'll probably be picking >up a couple soon for some of my non-classic computers -- Linux can fill >any storage surplus you let it near. They are handy, but they're still expensive for storage. For around $50 (or I think less), you can pick up a 1.3G magneto optical platter - That's roughly 4 cents per meg! Granted, the drive runs around $600, but it's worth it! (also, it's a flippy media, but hey! You'll still swap less than a Zip!) Don't get me wrong... I have a SCSI zip (that's the *only* way to go.. the Parallel port is _just_ _too_ _slow!_) and I do like it... but for mass storage that will last 30 years around kids with magnets, MO is awesome! Oh, and Linux is still a lot easier on the storage than Win95! 64K clusters -- Bah! ;^> Just my $0.0002 (cheaper media), "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 21 11:12:47 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Cost per Meg... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970421102930.008eb240@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > They are handy, but they're still expensive for storage. For around $50 (or > I think less), you can pick up a 1.3G magneto optical platter - That's > roughly 4 cents per meg! Granted, the drive runs around $600, but it's > worth it! (also, it's a flippy media, but hey! You'll still swap less than > a Zip!) Actually, I don't use the Zip disks much for long-term archiving -- I count on redundant systems for my real data -- why should I back up operating systems and application packages (other than configuration files) when I've got the installation media and it'll be upgraded or superceded in a few months anyway. I mostly use them for moving my real stuff between those redundant systems as well as the desktop at work that I use most for sucking stuff off of the net, as the T-1 there is better than the 28.8 at home when pulling down a couple of hundred meg of fresh Linux material. > Don't get me wrong... I have a SCSI zip (that's the *only* way to go.. the > Parallel port is _just_ _too_ _slow!_) and I do like it... but for mass > storage that will last 30 years around kids with magnets, MO is awesome! Well, ours are both parallel since one of the main ideas was to use them to move material between mostly PC compatibles running Linux, OS/2 and (mostly Lisa's) Microslough-based machines. And Lisa actually is using them to backup her systems. I'm still designing my next power system, and at present we have only one system with a real SCSI interface -- my new power system will have one as well. (The box it's being built into is an old AT&T 6386E tower box with enough room to put in any damn thing I want -- I won't throw away the old CPU and ESDI drives though, as eventually [it's ten years old next year] I'll want to restore the machine as a classic). > Oh, and Linux is still a lot easier on the storage than Win95! 64K clusters > -- Bah! ;^> Not the way I do it -- I tend to put _everything_ on my hard disk, even the contents of the Red Hat Linux Library CD. It's amazing how much space years of documentation and source changes takes up. Plus my main Linux system provides overflow storage via UUCP for all of the material that doesn't fit on my old Tandy Xenix and AT&T 3B1 systems (both discontinued about 1986 and therefore on-topic in this mailing list, in case anyone was getting impatient with the discussion of newfangled stuff like Linux and Zip drives -- Linux allows us to extend the capabilities of those classics and I know that there is an attempt in progress to adapt the Zip to the 3B1). -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Apr 21 12:07:01 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Cost per Meg... In-Reply-To: from "Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers" at Apr 21, 97 12:12:47 pm Message-ID: <9704211607.AA25087@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1062 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970421/eeeeb45c/attachment-0001.ksh From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Apr 21 11:20:47 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: SCSI drives & classic systems In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970421102930.008eb240@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970421122047.007ce3c0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers said: >On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: >as well as the desktop at >work that I use most for sucking stuff off of the net, as the T-1 >there is better than the 28.8 at home when pulling down a couple of >hundred meg of fresh Linux material. Whoo-hoo! A man with a mission! Hey, if you're ever in the EUP of Michigan, stop in for a homebrew! As I have T1 at work as well, that's why I like the Zip. Do you realize just how *much* stuff for classic computers there is out there? I've filled my zip twice with stuff for my CoCo's, my Tandy 200 & 600 laptops, the Atari 800, and the Atari 1040ST machine I'm getting in a month or so. (that should still be old enough for this list... shouldn't it?) >that doesn't fit on my old Tandy Xenix and AT&T 3B1 systems (both >discontinued about 1986 and therefore on-topic in this mailing list, in >case anyone was getting impatient with the discussion of newfangled >stuff like Linux and Zip drives -- Linux allows us to extend the >capabilities of those classics and I know that there is an attempt in >progress to adapt the Zip to the 3B1). I just read on a CoCo newsgroup that someone has successfully interfaced a SCSI Zip drive to their CoCo (the stock SCSI boards need modification to work with a zip... but it's only a matter of time, now!) Also, I plan on getting a SCSI board for my ST, so then the zip will have worked with a Mac, 2 PC's, a Sun Netra Solaris box, the ST (when it's ready) and the CoCo (if the guy publishes the mods / driver patches.) Cain't do dat with a Parallel! AAMAF, a lot of these SCSI technologies available now have the ability to breath new life into these older machines... as there is now an IDE interface available for the CoCo as well! If anyone's interested in this, send me an e-mail and I'll get you more info. BTW, what Tandy Xenix box do you have? Been wanting a 16b or a 6000... but can't find those very easily up here in the boonies! Gotta Roll, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Apr 21 11:43:31 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and Computers) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204976A75@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> > ---------- > From: Alexios Chouchoulas[SMTP:alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, April 21, 1997 5:44 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Collecting (was: On Generations of People and > Computers) > | If mainstream Microsoft | droids start collecting, we'll have to rescue old hardware from THEIR | filthy claws as well. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > Attention: > [ ] Clueless Newbie [ ] Lamer [ ] AOLer > [ ] Me-too-er [ ] Pervert [ ] Geek > [ ] Spammer [ ] Grade School Dropout [ ] Nerd > [ ] Fed [ ] Freak [ ] > Scientologist > [ ] Fool [ ] Jesus Krispy [ ] Anonymous > Coward > [ ] Rush Limbecile [X] Paranoid MS-Hater [ ] Ex-AOLer > > You are being contacted because: > [ ] You said "me too" to something > [ ] You posted a phone-sex ad > [ ] You posted a local message in an international conference > [ ] You posted a "test" in a newsgroup other than alt.test > [ ] You started an off-topic thread > [ ] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message > [ ] You brag about things that never happened > [X] You posted a "Microsoft is out to get us" message > [ ] Your sig/alias/server sucks > [ ] Your writing skills do not even meet the low standards of Usenet > [ ] You posted a jail-bait message > [ ] You asked a ridiculous question > [ ] You posted a con/scam/pyramid scheme message > [ ] Your lack of a quote made your response incoherent > [ ] You posted to more than four newsgroups > [ ] You were imposing your religious beliefs on others > [ ] You posted something really stupid/depraved > [ ] You tried to blame others for your stupidity > [X] You incorrectly assumed unwarranted moral or intellectual > superiority > > To Repent, You Must: > [ ] Invest in a dictionary/spell-checker > [ ] Learn to correctly use your software/provider/bulletin board > [ ] Give up your AOL account > [ ] Try faking an interesting personality > [ ] Pretend you are Trent Reznor > [ ] Actually post something relevant > [X] Shave your head > [ ] Read the docs/FAQ > [ ] Post your tests to alt.test > [X] Limit yourself to 2 hours of WWF Wrestling per day > [ ] Print your home phone number in your adverts > [ ] Become a Satanist, sell your kids to Michael Jackson > [ ] Send Bill Gates a love letter > > In Closing, I'd Like to Say: > [ ] You're an idiot > [ ] Bite me > [X] Get a life > [ ] Never post again > [ ] I pity your dog > [ ] Go to hell > [ ] Your mother's so fat/stupid/ugly that etc... > [ ] Learn to post or sod off > [ ] Do us all a favor and crawl into some industrial machinery > [ ] See how far your tongue will fit into the electric outlet > [ ] All of the above > > end flame. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Apr 21 11:48:54 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204976A8B@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | Aha! You have a point! Anyone remember the time when Osborne-1s were | supposedly rare and were priced at around $1,000-$10,000? Ha ha. Nice joke. This stems from a California reporter who got confused when talking to collectors and printed in the newspaper that an Osborne 1 sold for over $10,000. The collectors were actually talking about an Apple I, not an Osborne 1 (an easy confusion for a layman to make). An Apple I sold at the Computer Bowl charity auction (filled with billionaires) for that price, but even that doesn't mean that an Apple I is _worth_ $10K, just that someone made a nice charity donation in connection with one. Kai From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 21 11:58:45 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970420214751.00a055a0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Actually, I think this would be a fun "silly little game" except in my case > the time frame needs to be improved *greatly*. Where I live, garage sales > haven't even started yet! (Why, you may ask... for some reason, people > don't want to set their "prized possesions" out in 2' of snow!) You make a valid point there, mister. Silly me, being in California, I tend to forget that other people aren't as fortunate in the weather department as we are out here. > What would be fun for me is if the contest ran for a month, or even the > whole summer... then those of use in the "boonies" might have a chance... > 'cause for now, you win. Tough to enter a contest when they don't offer it > in your area! Good idea. Long term seems funner. That way you can accumulate more goodies to boast about. To keep this discussion from taking up too much space, I'll just hold onto the topic until this summer, and then I'll announce the contest and we can come up with rules and stuff then. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 21 12:22:40 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Cost per Meg... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > They are handy, but they're still expensive for storage. For around $50 (or > > I think less), you can pick up a 1.3G magneto optical platter - That's > > roughly 4 cents per meg! Granted, the drive runs around $600, but it's > > worth it! (also, it's a flippy media, but hey! You'll still swap less than > > a Zip!) > > Actually, I don't use the Zip disks much for long-term archiving -- I > count on redundant systems for my real data -- why should I back up > operating systems and application packages (other than configuration > files) when I've got the installation media and it'll be upgraded or > superceded in a few months anyway. I mostly use them for moving my I don't want to get on anyone's badside but this is not very classic. This stuff is better left to private e-mail. Let's talk classic stuff! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 21 12:16:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Atari 2600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > He explained to me that this was a "games computer" with around 8 carts > (lemmesee, Pacman, Ms. Pacman, Pole Position, etc. -- ooh, > rare). The price: 20.00 UKP (around $30?). Surely, these people > are joking. I didn't even want to haggle for a new VCS. I don't know. It depends on the actually console itself. If you mean the newer one with only 4 front panel switches (as opposed to 6) then yes, that is a farce. But the Atari Jr. I have only seen one of (the one I have) and this came out in the late 80s. But still, for the above system I wouldn't pay more than $10 (with the games!) > Unfortunately, at another flea market, another time and another country > (and anyway, the wench is dead), an original VCS was going for around $100, > with extremely common carts selling for as much as $25. Amazing. Almost as > expensive as the thing when it first came out. :-) That's just downright pathetic. If she could get that much for it, more power to her, but I doubt she sold anything. Sometimes its still a bother trying to buy carts from swap meets. These people think these damn things are gold! I try buying them for fifty cents a piece but they usually want $3 each until I yank them back down to reality. Oh well, gives me a chance to work on my haggling skills. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 21 12:28:08 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204976A8B@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > | Aha! You have a point! Anyone remember the time when > Osborne-1s were > | supposedly rare and were priced at around $1,000-$10,000? Ha > ha. Nice joke. > > Osborne 1 (an easy confusion for a layman to make). An Apple I sold at > the Computer Bowl charity auction (filled with billionaires) for that > price, but even that doesn't mean that an Apple I is _worth_ $10K, just > that someone made a nice charity donation in connection with one. Good point. That means I can go out there looking for one in my price range, which is between $100-$200. :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From william at ans.net Mon Apr 21 14:01:36 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704211901.AA27718@interlock.ans.net> > If it does become mainstream (though I doubt it will, not in the very near > future), we have another reason to be more aggressive in collecting. So far, > we're rescuing old iron, minis, micros and what not from the disgusting > tentacles of "computer recycling" and the dump. I would like to point out that this attitude towards scrap dealers is really unproductive to our efforts. I have noticed it several places on this list. Simply stated, scrap dealers are not the enemy! Some of my best goodies have come straight out the junkyard. The secret is to get to know the people doing the scrapping - some of them will turn out to be fine, just uninformed. True, some are jerks that would stab their brother in the back just to get a good deal, but most are simply out to make a good living, being their own boss. To them, the old minis are resources of gold, some chips, some aluminum and tantalum, and misc. dirty metal. Most do not know that there are people that cherish and collect the old gear. They are simply interested in what they will get out of it, relative to what they put into it. If you offer to buy a piece for what they will get for it from the metal merchants and refineries, chances are that they will jump at the opprotunity to do less work. Go to the junkyards and state your intentions. Tell them what you are looking for and leave a card or two. Talk to the owners - most have very interesting tales to tell. This has worked for me quite a few times, although only for a classic computer once (remember, I am quite new to this game). I purchased my Sun 4/280 server (with an old 3/280 processor card as well) cheap, after telling the guy that I am always looking for interesting old machines. At another junkyard, I have pulled many interesting bits (vintage radio and radar things - see, someone does collect search radars!) at scrap prices. The owner kept them from the scrap heaps because he now knows what they are. If he was never told about the interest people have in the stuff, it would be on a slow boat to China by now, and not in personal collections and museums. William Donzelli william@ans.net From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon Apr 21 14:11:01 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: SCSI drives & classic systems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970421122047.007ce3c0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: they've managed to attach Zip rives to Commdore 64/128's too (thru CMD HD's) Les From starling at umr.edu Mon Apr 21 14:13:39 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa Power Supply... In-Reply-To: <199704211357.OAA17267@cream.motiv.co.uk> from "Kevan Heydon" at Apr 21, 97 02:56:58 pm Message-ID: <199704211913.OAA10836@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > Has anybody got the schematics for a Lisa 2 power supply? > When I get mine (May 3rd! May 3rd! Can't wait!), I will have a working Lisa 2 power supply. I could easily sit down with one of my EE friends and figure out the proper ammounts of juice comming out of the power supply. This should be enough to build/find a sufficient replacement. There's a catch, though... You have to remind me to do this. I'm terribly forgetful, so sometime after May 3rd, e-mail me and remind me I was going to do this. I honestly would love to help you... I just will probably forget about it once I get my new toy. chris starling starling@umr.edu From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 21 14:19:06 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: looking for Message-ID: <199704211919.NAA01855@calico.litterbox.com> I'm looking for an external scsi disk case, preferably set up for 2 5.25 inch 1/2 height devices. This is to attach to my second(!) apple2gs with a cdrom and a moderate sized hard disk. I'm told this kind of beast is common around SUN machines, and I know it's common around Digital Equipment machines as well. Anyone got an extra box lying around in their collection that they'd love to sell me? -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From william at ans.net Mon Apr 21 14:36:15 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: looking for In-Reply-To: <199704211919.NAA01855@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <199704211936.AA29699@interlock.ans.net> > I'm looking for an external scsi disk case, preferably set up for 2 > 5.25 inch 1/2 height devices. This is to attach to my second(!) apple2gs > with a cdrom and a moderate sized hard disk. I'm told this kind of beast > is common around SUN machines, and I know it's common around Digital > Equipment machines as well. The Sun boxes are good (bulletproof!), but typically want a Sun SCSI cable. Just another Sun gotcha! William Donzelli william@ans.net From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 21 14:43:28 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: looking for In-Reply-To: <199704211936.AA29699@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Apr 21, 97 03:36:15 pm Message-ID: <199704211943.NAA01961@calico.litterbox.com> > > > I'm looking for an external scsi disk case, preferably set up for 2 > > 5.25 inch 1/2 height devices. This is to attach to my second(!) apple2gs > > with a cdrom and a moderate sized hard disk. I'm told this kind of beast > > is common around SUN machines, and I know it's common around Digital > > Equipment machines as well. > > The Sun boxes are good (bulletproof!), but typically want a Sun SCSI > cable. Just another Sun gotcha! > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > I guess I should have mentioned that. I'd like thing to have Centronix or apple style scsi ports if possible. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 21 14:59:55 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: SCSI drives & classic systems In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970421122047.007ce3c0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Whoo-hoo! A man with a mission! Hey, if you're ever in the EUP of Michigan, > stop in for a homebrew! As I have T1 at work as well, that's why I like the > Zip. Do you realize just how *much* stuff for classic computers there is > out there? I've filled my zip twice with stuff for my CoCo's, my Tandy 200 > & 600 laptops, the Atari 800, and the Atari 1040ST machine I'm getting in a > month or so. (that should still be old enough for this list... shouldn't it?) Got most of the Color Computer, 1/3/4, 100 and ST material floating around, as far as I know. And TI/99. > I just read on a CoCo newsgroup that someone has successfully interfaced a > SCSI Zip drive to their CoCo (the stock SCSI boards need modification to > work with a zip... but it's only a matter of time, now!) Also, I plan on > getting a SCSI board for my ST, so then the zip will have worked with a > Mac, 2 PC's, a Sun Netra Solaris box, the ST (when it's ready) and the CoCo > (if the guy publishes the mods / driver patches.) Cain't do dat with a > Parallel! At some point, I will undoubtedly get a SCSI Zip. It hasn't been a priority _yet_. > AAMAF, a lot of these SCSI technologies available now have the ability to > breath new life into these older machines... as there is now an IDE > interface available for the CoCo as well! If anyone's interested in this, > send me an e-mail and I'll get you more info. Gimme the info. > BTW, what Tandy Xenix box do you have? Been wanting a 16b or a 6000... but > can't find those very easily up here in the boonies! 6000 HD. Cost me a dollar at last years Trenton Computer Festival. I had to replace the hard drive. Just _happened_ to have an unused 40MB MFM drive for some reason. From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri Apr 18 02:36:49 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: FAQ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 20-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Interestingly enough, the article also mentions advances >in "vertical recording techniques." One of the companies >listed was supposed to be introducing a 5 1/4" disk that >could hold approximately 6.5 megs of data. Anything >ever come of this? Supra sold a 5-1/4" floppy drive for the Atari ST that would hold 10meg on a disk, though the drive used a laser to track the head position, and the disks were special and had special markings on them to allow the laser to track where it was on the disk. I had one of these drives at one point, but could never locate any disks for it. Jeff Jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128, C128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From scott at saskatoon.com Mon Apr 21 16:14:29 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Weekend (almost) aquisitions (sp?) In-Reply-To: <199704211919.NAA01855@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure if Monday legally qualifies for weekend aquisitions, but I filled in some major gaps in my Commodore PET line today. I picked up a 4016, 4032, SuperPET, and 8050 Drive for a grand total of... $50.25 CDN (about $35 USD) at Value Village. There are still more if anyone around here is interested (Saskatchewan, Canada). The labels on the front are beat up, and they're a bit dusty, but for $13ea I'll take them! ttfn srw From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 21 16:17:36 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!) In-Reply-To: <199704211901.AA27718@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > If it does become mainstream (though I doubt it will, not in the very near > > future), we have another reason to be more aggressive in collecting. So far, > > we're rescuing old iron, minis, micros and what not from the disgusting > > tentacles of "computer recycling" and the dump. > > I would like to point out that this attitude towards scrap dealers is > really unproductive to our efforts. I have noticed it several places on > this list. > > Simply stated, scrap dealers are not the enemy! Some of my best goodies > have come straight out the junkyard. The secret is to get to know the > people doing the scrapping - some of them will turn out to be fine, just > uninformed. True, some are jerks that would stab their brother in the > back just to get a good deal, but most are simply out to make a good > living, being their own boss. Yeah, the Lawrence Livermore Labs here in California phased out their CRAY I a couple years back and the high bidder was a scrap dealer who bought it for...I forget how much. Either it was $10,000 or he expected to get $10,000 out of the metals in it. At any rate, reading his quote in the paper about what he would get after melting it down got me incensed. > > To them, the old minis are resources of gold, some chips, some aluminum > and tantalum, and misc. dirty metal. Most do not know that there are > people that cherish and collect the old gear. They are simply interested Good point. I never thought to go to the scrap dealers and get a relationship going. This is a terrific idea! I think I'll start scouting them out this weekend. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 21 16:37:02 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 21, 97 02:17:36 pm Message-ID: <199704212137.PAA02511@calico.litterbox.com> Speaking of CRAY 1s, I remember the most powerful computer I ever saw until I graduated from college was the Cray 1 at the National Center for Atmospheric Research. So, trivia fans, does anyone know what kind of stats it generated in MIPS/FLOPS? I'm curious to know how it stacks up against modern mini/micros. It amazed me at the time though. It had an entire floor of a building full of disks and printers that it kept busy. Intel Paragon may be more powerful, but the one I saw was just nowhere near as impressive, even with the leds showing you which processor was talking to which other processor. For that matter, does anyone know how much power a Cray 1 needs to run? -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From william at ans.net Mon Apr 21 16:40:07 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704212140.AA05686@interlock.ans.net> > Yeah, the Lawrence Livermore Labs here in California phased out their CRAY > I a couple years back and the high bidder was a scrap dealer who bought it > for...I forget how much. Either it was $10,000 or he expected to get > $10,000 out of the metals in it. At any rate, reading his quote in the > paper about what he would get after melting it down got me incensed. Those older Crays are loaded with good metal; most of the weight of the machine (tons?) is from the slabs of copper the boards are mounted to. Of course this means no Cray-1s will ever get into private hands, unless someone wants to pay the price. I do not think the newer Crays are nearly as valuable, but I could be wrong. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Mon Apr 21 16:45:45 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!) In-Reply-To: <199704212137.PAA02511@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <199704212145.AA05897@interlock.ans.net> > So, trivia fans, does anyone know what kind of stats it generated > in MIPS/FLOPS? I think 160 MFLOPS, if you kept the pipes filled. Still fast, but not for its size/power consumption. William Donzelli william@ans.net From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Apr 21 16:40:56 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Scrap Dealers (was Re: Collecting) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204998715@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Here's a list of scrap dealers who buy obsolete computer equipment: Windfield Alloy, Inc. Lawrence, MA 800-626-1230/508-689-2470 Local ComService Enterprises, Brooklyn, NY 718-332-2300/718-332-4471 Fax Silicon Salvage Inc, Anaheim, CA 714-523-2425/714-523-2552 Fax Texas Recycling & Refining, Houston, TX 713-443-2070/713-443-3973 Fax Iowa Electronic Recovery, 800-232-2591/319-337-9548 Fax Metaltech, 800-435-8636/603-524-2873 Fax EnviRoSYS, 800-PRO-JUNK, surplus@crazybob.com Someone should organize contact with these folks so they don't get our whole list calling and bothering them. Kai From dynasoar at mindspring.com Mon Apr 21 20:29:22 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: yo References: Message-ID: <335C1472.E1A@mindspring.com> Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > Also, there's this poor guy trying to sell his Amstrad PC-1640 (crappy > so-and-so PC compatible). That 1640 has been sitting around for at least two > weeks now. Next time you see this guy would you please give him my email address, as I am looking for a new system board for my own "crappy" 1640 :-) Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 21 18:53:48 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204976A8B@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > | Aha! You have a point! Anyone remember the time when > Osborne-1s were > | supposedly rare and were priced at around $1,000-$10,000? Ha > ha. Nice joke. > > This stems from a California reporter who got confused when talking to > collectors and printed in the newspaper that an Osborne 1 sold for over > $10,000. The collectors were actually talking about an Apple I, not an > Osborne 1 (an easy confusion for a layman to make). Ok, that would make sense. It seems that this has become some sort of urban legend, though -- I remember posts in afc like "I have an Osborne-1. Make me an offer about $5000." :-) --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 21 18:44:03 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!) In-Reply-To: <199704211901.AA27718@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > Simply stated, scrap dealers are not the enemy! [...] > Go to the junkyards and state your intentions. Tell them what you are > looking for and leave a card or two. Talk to the owners - most have very > interesting tales to tell. Agreed. But I never claimed the scrap dealers are the enemy! The *act* of sending off machines to be converted to scrap metal is the "enemy". Besides I don't see why we should treat anyone as the "enemy". We're trying to rescue old hardware, not start a war. :-) Unfortunately, I don't know any scrap dealers around here, so I can't put your technique to the test. I'm content going to car boot sales weekly. At an average of two machines per week, it's fine by me (I mainly collect micros, so trips to scrap dealers may be an overkill). --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Apr 21 19:32:21 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2049A1EB9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Turns out I was too quick to place the blame on an errant journalist. The article, excerpted below (not for profit, and do not forward, etc) actually does say "apple 1" -- it was some bozo on Usenet that made the mistake. The part about the Computer Bowl is correct though. Kai 02490420 60320 THE CUTTING EDGE A Byte of History Techies Taking a Scroll Down Memory Lane Los Angeles Times (LT) - MONDAY August 12, 1996 By: GREG MILLER; TIMES STAFF WRITER Edition: Home Edition Section: Business Page: 1 Pt. D Story Type: Main Story; Infobox Word Count: 1,797 TEXT: The nerds are getting nostalgic. Barely 20 years into the personal computer revolution, techies across the country are growing increasingly sentimental about the machines and programs that changed their lives and ushered in the Information Age. For them, booting up a vintage Commodore PET computer can conjure misty-eyed memories. Toggling the switches of an Altair 8800 is better than gripping the gearshift of a first car. And a shrink-wrapped copy of VisiCalc software beats a mint-condition Mickey Mantle baseball card any day. This is the memorabilia of the PC generation, and after spending much of the last decade or two collecting dust in suburban garages from Silicon Valley to Boston's Route 128, it's starting to make a comeback. Virtual museums of vintage hardware and software are sprouting up all over the Internet's World Wide Web, as are online classified ads placed by collectors desperate to reacquire the technological wonders of their youth. Some rare PCs are fetching much higher prices now than they did when they were brand-new, and even revered institutions such as the Smithsonian are bolstering their computer collections. "The amount of activity that I see is amazing," said Kip Crosby, president of the Computer History Assn. of California in Palo Alto. "People are always asking me: 'Can you find me an Altair? Can you find this or that?' I get 10 to 20 phone calls and e-mails a month, twice as many as a year ago." Most of these early machines and programs, which didn't work very well when they were new, are even more troublesome to maintain now--and have been rendered obsolete by wave after wave of new equipment. But like certain cars or baseball cards, high-tech relics are somehow enhanced by the passage of time. Collectors see them as the symbols of a more colorful computer age populated by legendary personalities who became billionaires--or, in some cases, went bust. "That's why I'm interested in computer history," said Co Ho, 30, an Internet administrator at Fullerton College. "Many people could have made it big, but they fell asleep and ended up having somebody else eating their cake." Ho collects vintage software, especially programs that changed the computing landscape but somehow faltered. One of his favorite pieces is CP/M, an early operating system created by Digital Research. CP/M might have become the operating system had Digital Research's founder, the late Gary Kildall, been more hospitable when IBM came calling to license his software. In a legendary blunder, Kildall and his wife refused to sign IBM's confidentiality agreement, and IBM executives took their business to a then-tiny company known as Microsoft. "CP/M missed the boat because of casual behavior," Ho said. "It's really a sad story." Ho is one of the few people who collect software. More collect hardware, and one of the most sought-after machines is the Altair 8800, introduced by MITS Inc. of Albuquerque in 1975. It didn't have a keyboard or a monitor, only rows of switches on the front of the box. The Altair kit sold for $395 when it was new, but one in good condition today can fetch as much as $1,500 because of the exalted position it holds in computer history. Widely regarded as the first mass-market personal computer, it launched a craze when it appeared on the cover of the January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics. Bill Gates even dropped out of Harvard to develop an early version of the Basic programming language for the Altair. The Altair "established Bill Gates in business," said Gwen Bell, founder of the Computer Museum, a Boston mecca for computer lovers. "One of our prize treasures is the original Basic tape that Bill Gates developed on the Altair." Collectors tend to pass over some of the most popular early machines, such as the original IBM PC and the 1984 Apple Macintosh, because there are just too many of them. Scarcity counts, which helps explain why the most valuable collectible is the Apple I. Introduced by Steven Jobs and Stephen Wozniak in 1976, the Apple I was nothing more than a circuit board. It had no keyboard, no monitor, not even a case. It sold for $666, and only a few hundred were produced. A well-preserved Apple I can fetch as much as $12,000 today, sometimes more. An Apple I signed by Jobs and Wozniak sold for $22,000 at a fund-raiser auction for the Computer Museum several months ago, Bell said. That kind of appreciation has attracted the attention of even non-techie collectors. "I got a call from an investment advisor for a Wall Street banker," Bell said. "He asked: 'Should I get him into collecting old computers? Will they increase in value more than art?' I said, 'I don't know--I'm not a dealer.' " In fact, there aren't any prominent dealers of antique computers, at least not yet. But a few collectors are hoping to change that, including David Greelish, founder of the Historical Computer Society in Jacksonville, Fla. Greelish, a computer repairman, has spent about $2,600 in recent years building a collection of 35 computers, mostly by trolling for bargains on the Internet. He uses search engines such as Yahoo to root out online classified ads for Altairs and other vintage machines, and he keeps an eye on alt.folklore.computers, a newsgroup where history buffs hang out. "Ultimately, I would like to see (the Historical Computer Society) grow and publish magazines and books," he said. "I'd like to start displaying our collection and even restoring computers for sale." Greelish and others said would-be collectors should look for machines that look clean, have all the original equipment and documentation and still run. A number of guidebooks are available, including Stan Veit's "History of the Personal Computer," published by WorldComm in Asheville, N.C., and "A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators," published by Krause Publications in Iola, Wis. Experts urge caution, however. There's no guarantee that old computers will grow in value, and they are very difficult to maintain. "If you've never opened up your computer and looked inside, this is probably not the collectible for you," Bell said. Instead, experts say, this is a hobby better left to people who were enthralled by the recent PBS documentary "Triumph of the Nerds," people who still have a soft spot for monochrome terminals, "Chiclet" keyboards and the odd shapes of the early machines. But even among techies, there are plenty of people who scoff at this new fad, including Kim Nelson, service manager at ACP Superstore in Santa Ana. Founded 20 years ago, ACP is one of the oldest computer stores in Southern California, holds swap meets that attract legions of collectors, and might be one of the region's best unofficial museums. The store's top shelves are crammed with artifacts of computer history, although Nelson calls it junk. "Isn't it amazing that we have computer folklore now," he said, walking with a reporter along rows of vintage Commodores, Imsais and Tandys. "That's kind of sad when you think about it. Seems to me there are things that are a lot more important." But as he uttered those words, service technician John Krill walked by and surveyed the line of creaky machines. Almost against his will, Nelson was sucked into an episode of technology reverie. "Look at that Kaypro," Krill said. "That company grew so fast they were warehousing their inventory in tents." "Weren't they the ones that had the fire too?" asked Nelson, perking up just a bit and eager to demonstrate his techno-trivia prowess. The conversation drifted from machine to machine. "When I was in college, I would just leave my Osborne up in the library," Krill said with a laugh, recalling the immobility of the first portable computer. "The damned thing weighed 27 pounds. I didn't want to lug it around." Fifteen minutes passed before the two realized that their walk down memory lane might have strained the attention span of their guest. "That's enough, John," Nelson finally said with an embarrassed grin. "You're boring him." Greg Miller can be reached via e-mail at greg.miller atimes.com (BEGIN TEXT OF INFOBOX / INFOGRAPHIC) Computer Collectibles Here are some of the PCs attracting the attention of nostalgic techies: Model: Apple I Year introduced: 1976 Original price: $666 Current value: $10,000-$12,000 * Model: Mark-8 Year introduced: 1974 Original price: $250 Current value: $3,500-$4,000 * Model: Scelbi 8H Year introduced: 1973 Original price: $440 Current value: $1,200-$1,500 * Model: Altair 8800 Year introduced: 1975 Original price: $395 Current value: $1,200-$1,500 * Model: Imsai 8080 Year introduced: 1975 Original price: $440 Current value: $400-$600 * Model: Apple II Year introduced: 1977 Original price: $1,195 Current value: $200-$400 * Model: Osborne I Year introduced: 1981 Original price: $1,795 Current value: $200-$300 Descriptions: Apple I: With no monitor, no keyboard and no case, the Apple I was little more than a circuit board. Only a few hundred were produced. Mark-8: A kit computer that was the subject of the first magazine article describing how to build a computer. The article appeared in Radio Electronics Magazine in 1974. Scelbi: Predated the Altair and was the first computer based on a microprocessor advertised for sale. Only a small number was made. Altair 8800: Programmed by switches, the Altair 8800 had no keyboard, no monitor and just 256 bytes of memory. But it is widely regarded as the first mass-market personal computer. The Altair, based on an Intel processor, started a craze when it appeared on the cover of Popular Electronics magazine in January 1975. Imsai 8080: Modeled on the Altair, the Imsai had several technological advances and a more polished look. Had no keyboard or monitor but was briefly the fastest-selling personal computer. Apple II: This is the machine that launched the company--and the personal computer industry. Apple II computers came with a keyboard, monitor and two disk drives. Most important, they ran VisiCalc, the original spreadsheet program that was the personal computer's "killer application." Osborne I: Considered the first portable computer, even though it weighed about 30 pounds and was the size of a suitcase. It had a 5-inch screen, two floppy disk drives and 64K of RAM. Sources: Stan Veit's "History of the Personal Computer," published by WorldComm, Asheville, N.C.; David Greelish, president, Historical Computer Society, Jacksonville, Fla.; "A Collector's Guide to Personal Computers and Pocket Calculators," published by Krause Publications in Iola, Wis. AL SCHABEN / Los Angeles Times > ---------- > From: Alexios Chouchoulas[SMTP:alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, April 21, 1997 4:53 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and > Computers) > > On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > | Aha! You have a point! Anyone remember the time when > > Osborne-1s were > > | supposedly rare and were priced at around $1,000-$10,000? Ha > > ha. Nice joke. > > > > This stems from a California reporter who got confused when talking > to > > collectors and printed in the newspaper that an Osborne 1 sold for > over > > $10,000. The collectors were actually talking about an Apple I, not > an > > Osborne 1 (an easy confusion for a layman to make). > > Ok, that would make sense. It seems that this has become some sort > of > urban legend, though -- I remember posts in afc like "I have an > Osborne-1. > Make me an offer about $5000." :-) > > > --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. > ------------------------------- > Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' > alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk > The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, > axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk > From marcw at lightside.com Mon Apr 21 15:42:20 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:16 2005 Subject: looking for Message-ID: <199704220045.RAA29562@covina.lightside.com> > I'm looking for an external scsi disk case, preferably set up for 2 > 5.25 inch 1/2 height devices. This is to attach to my second(!) apple2gs > with a cdrom and a moderate sized hard disk. I'm told this kind of beast > is common around SUN machines, and I know it's common around Digital > Equipment machines as well. Anyone got an extra box lying around in > their collection that they'd love to sell me? > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@calico.litterbox.com A few catalogues sell external SCSI cases in varying sizes. Not the cheapest things it seems. Sometimes more than PC tower cases. Anyhind Jameco (800-831-4242) and JDR Microdevices (800-538-5000) sell them. They all include power supplies. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com (finger at: marcw@mail.lightside.com) marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Apr 21 20:00:55 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2049A1EB9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: Fun article ;) I'm just curious - have any of you (with the possible exception of the apple I) ever seen anyone selling these models at these prices much less purchased one for so much? Do any of these warrant such a price for you? $400 for an Apple II? $300 for an Osborne? I bought an Apple II+ with 3 Disk IIs, color monitor, and box of accessories for $50 - in 1988! I get nervous when journalists start quoting prices on old computers. There are still a number of machines I want in my collection - but only if I can continue to find them for $5. Maybe I'm just nuts ;). Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw > Here are some of the PCs attracting the attention of nostalgic > techies: > > Model: Apple I > Current value: $10,000-$12,000 > > Model: Mark-8 > Current value: $3,500-$4,000 > > Model: Scelbi 8H > Current value: $1,200-$1,500 > > Model: Altair 8800 > Current value: $1,200-$1,500 > > Model: Imsai 8080 > Current value: $400-$600 > > Model: Apple II > Current value: $200-$400 > > Model: Osborne I > Current value: $200-$300 From pcoad at crl.com Mon Apr 21 20:35:11 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > Fun article ;) > > I'm just curious - have any of you (with the possible exception of the > apple I) ever seen anyone selling these models at these prices much less > purchased one for so much? Do any of these warrant such a price for > you? $400 for an Apple II? $300 for an Osborne? I bought an Apple II+ > with 3 Disk IIs, color monitor, and box of accessories for $50 - > in 1988! > I've never purchased one for these prices. I've paid less than $200 for my entire collection (excluding items bought new). I have seen an Apple I for sale in the San Jose Mercury News for $25,000 (might have been $50,000, I can't remember for sure, but it was big bucks) IIRC. Someone in one of the forsale newsgroups was selling a Sun 1 and had offers in the range of $700-1200. (Of course I found this out after I offered him $50 for it :-(). > I get nervous when journalists start quoting prices on old computers. > There are still a number of machines I want in my collection - but > only if I can continue to find them for $5. Maybe I'm just nuts ;). > One of the strong points for collecting is that does not have to cost much to build up a nice collection. At $5 I can justify bringing home just about anything. At $200+ I better be able to justify the value of the machine. One good thing to note, I was in a "real" antique shop this weekend, and there was not a computer or computer related item in the entire place. With any luck there will be a few more years before the mainstream gets ahold of them. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tight-wad computer collector. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Apr 21 20:45:00 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2049AB002@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | I'm just curious - have any of you (with the possible exception of the | apple I) ever seen anyone selling these models at these prices much less | purchased one for so much? Do any of these warrant such a price for | you? $400 for an Apple II? $300 for an Osborne? I bought an Apple II+ | with 3 Disk IIs, color monitor, and box of accessories for $50 - | in 1988! Well... here are my thoughts: > > Here are some of the PCs attracting the attention of nostalgic > > techies: > > > > Model: Apple I > > Current value: $10,000-$12,000 > Unverified, the only high-dollar example I know of is the Computer Bowl auction unit. I know someone who actually has two Apple I's, and since I actually have more than one Altair, I'm trying to talk him into our becoming about the only two people with one of each. Wish me luck! > > Model: Mark-8 > > Current value: $3,500-$4,000 > Highly dubious, since I have never seen, and probably will never see, one of these for sale. Heck, it wasn't even a genuine production machine, it was mostly just instructions on how to build one from scratch. Who knows what it would even look like? Every one was different. Since most if not all of the period's TTL stuff is still available, you could build something today and call it a Mark 8. Most people looking for an Altair would say "A Mark what?" > > Model: Scelbi 8H > > Current value: $1,200-$1,500 > Why this should be lower priced than the Mark-8 considering that it came out earlier ('73 vs. '74, according to Byte), is beyond me. The same comment as for the Mark-8 applies. The Mark-8 and Scelbi are sort of like the guy who almost got credit for inventing the telephone. It's doubtful that history will ever be rewritten sufficiently for there to be a significant interest in these machines. Not that _I_ wouldn't buy one, mind you... not for these dollars of course, but for a goodly sum. > > > Model: Altair 8800 > > Current value: $1,200-$1,500 > This might actually be a bit low, considering the amount of 'Altair Fever' around today. You should see the number of 'Altair Wanted' posts on various sections of Usenet. Geez! Is it worth it? I'd say, sure it is! My dad's '57 fuelie 'Vette is just as primitive by today's standards, but just like the Altair, it looks fantastic and it's a piece of history. It darn well deserves its more-than-a-new-one price tag. Of course, my dad restored it himself, since he always wanted one when he was a kid... sure sounds like his son's relationship with antique computers! > > > Model: Imsai 8080 > > Current value: $400-$600 > This is accurate, perhaps a bit low as well. They're pretty rare (one less in circulation as of this weekend - thanks Tim!) > > > Model: Apple II > > Current value: $200-$400 > Well, we all know this is a joke. The highest price I've seen for a plain // is about $60. I'd probably pay $200+ for a pristine one in the original box with manuals, etc. but I don't think that's what they mean. Of course, I haven't been able to find a nice one myself, so... > > Model: Osborne I > > Current value: $200-$300 > Tough call. It's reasonably, but certainly not vanishingly, rare (I've owned three at various times) and I'm sure there are folks in the world that would pay this, but I generally see them going for around $100, and more like $15 at swap meets or thrift stores. Kai From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri Apr 18 07:38:54 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Extra Stuff Message-ID: Here are a few extra things I need to part with to make space: 1) TI-99/4A, silver/black, with power supply. No RF modulator. works great....$15 + shipping 2) Amiga 1000, main unit only..no keyboard. Bad floppy and missing the cover which goes over the RAM expansion on the front of the unit. Also is missing the 68000 CPU. This system is said to have worked ok, but I bought it for it's keyboard and it is just sitting here. I really hate to trash it, so anyone who is interested can have it for the cost of the shipping. An interesting thing about it is that it, like all A1000's, has the underside of the upper casing 'signed' by all it's designers, including Jay Miner. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128, C128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Apr 21 21:48:09 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2049A1EB9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at Apr 21, 97 05:32:21 pm Message-ID: <9704220148.AA27458@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 520 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970421/0e9f8e73/attachment-0001.ksh From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 21 21:05:05 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > Fun article ;) > > I'm just curious - have any of you (with the possible exception of the > apple I) ever seen anyone selling these models at these prices much less > purchased one for so much? Do any of these warrant such a price for > you? $400 for an Apple II? $300 for an Osborne? I bought an Apple II+ > with 3 Disk IIs, color monitor, and box of accessories for $50 - > in 1988! Yeah, but that's the ][+, which are easier to find than the ][. I've heard some people mention that the ][ is harder to find, and so far I believe them because I've hardly ever seen one advertised. A guy at my work is supposed to give me his, which he says is a ][, but he's not always all there, so it could just be a ][+. But I would say a ][ is probably worth about $100 with some accessories, like a disk drive and monitor and the language card. > I get nervous when journalists start quoting prices on old computers. > There are still a number of machines I want in my collection - but > only if I can continue to find them for $5. Maybe I'm just nuts ;). I don't think you're nuts. I think the idiots who paid the prices that the journalist quoted are nuts. Or perhaps the journalist himself is a dope. You know how these stupid reporters always get their facts screwed up. But I agree with you. Its great going out and picking up systems for $5-$20 a pop. I would just give up if I had to pay $50, $100, $200 and up for what really does amount to "junk" (although wonderful, beautiful, sometimes bring a tear to your eye junk). I don't know if anyone else here uses auction web, but its both a blessing and a curse. Its a blessing because a lot of people sell off their good old computer stuff there, and it usually is working stuff. Its a curse because then people who a lot of times don't realize what they're bidding on (Sure *I* know a commodore 64 is practically worthless, but not other morons) run the price up to ridiculous levels. I've seen commodore 64s go for $20 and up with some accessories such as disk drives. I've seen atari 2600 carts go for $10 EACH for some "rarer" ones. In a lot of cases with the carts, some dolt runs it up just because he never heard of it or had it when he was a kid, so he thinks its rare and decides $10 is a good price, whereas I would've had it for $2-$3 if it wasn't for him. BAH! That's why I'd rather just spend a weekend at a flea market. Its funner to come across stuff sitting in a pile of junk and then haggling the seller down until he breaks. Then going home and finding out the stuff works, and it was a good day. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon Apr 21 21:23:12 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: PETS & the Silly Game References: <199704210702.AAA05904@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <335C2110.B9F@goldrush.com> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:21:01 -0400 (EDT) > From: Doug Spence > To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Subject: PET stuff > Does anyone out there know much about the old PET 2001 machines? I know pretty much PET software & usage, and have a bunch of good books to help me on other aspects... ;) > I received a PET a couple of years ago, in which all of the 6550 SRAMs > were fried. I replaced them with the chips from another PET 2001 (one > with the miniature keyboard, from 1977) and the system worked fine. > Does anyone know how all of the memory chips could've been killed? > I tried them in various patterns in the sockets, and it does seem as if > all 16 of them are fried. Never heard of that, but I did have a friend who tried expanding PET memory by piggybacking RAM chips ; that fried his... (beware, he's still out there...) > Anyway, is it still possible to get 6550s anywhere? And if not, is there > a replacement that could be used? MOS technologies found out they wern't good RAM manufacturers, the comptible and available chip number you seek is 2114. Which I have found in a Jameco Catalog (415-592-8097) > Even better: Can I simply replace the 6550s with another type of chip and > get more RAM in the system? Most of my software works in 8K, but I do > have some music files that require more. (I have one of those external > music boards that plugs into the cassette2 and user ports, that delivers > four voices.) Wow! An MTU sound board! Got to hear a demonstration of it some 15 years ago, pretty nice sound! One of these days I might come across one of 'em for my own. Back to RAM, from the next paragraph I would say that you can add via that expansion board. But just in case I'm mistaken, here is something I found in Nick Hampshire's PET Revealed: ... The old 8K machines used 4K bit static RAMs, these were one of two types the 6550 and the 2114. Both these chips are functionally indentical in most respects since they are organised as 1K by 4 bits. The latest versions of the static RAM 8K machines used the 6550.... ... The new 32K and 16K dynamic RAM machines use the 4116 memory chip and the dynamic 8K the 4108. These two RAM chips are pin compatable, with the 4116 having 16K bits of memory and the 4108 8K bits. This is useful since it allows the same circuit board to be used for all sizes of machine. Memory on the 16 and 32K machines is organised as two banks each of 16K bytes, only one bank being implemented in the 16K.... > Now, another question. With that same PET, came an expansion board of > some kind. Its like a daughterboard, physically mounted on posts above > the motherboard, but connected via the memory expansion connector on the > side. > > It appears (yes) to be a memory board, with 16 RAM chips on it. At least, > they look like they could be RAM chips, judging by the traces on the > board. However, I've never seen RAM chips with gold contacts and gold > plates on their backs before, as six of these chips have, so I'm wondering > if this could be more than just a memory board. Sounds like an Expandamem or ExpandaPET to me, I have the docs for it, I think it has schematics and stuff. Mine have the same chips too, look like tiny ROMs or EPROMs.. > The board is dead, BTW. The PET won't operate with the board plugged in. > It just comes up with a screenful of garbage characters. [clip] > Both connectors on the cable that leads from the expansion board to the > motherboard are noticeably burnt. In both cases, the burn marks surround > the pin that connects to the black wire. OUCH!!!! That's gotta hurt... Hope you figure out what did that. > > The only identifying mark on the board is the text: > R 3014 > rev. > C > COPYRIGHT 1978 R.C.Factor My ExpandaPET book has (c) 1979 Computhink (yours could be an earlier version?), also my board has four breadboard (edgecard) sockets to add devices like disk drive controller cards and the like. > Does anyone have any better guesses than me as to its function? (Can the > edge connector on the side of the PET be used for anything other than RAM > expansion?) The only other thing I could think of it being (if it had a patch into the monitor connector) would be a Visible Memory (hi-res graphics) board. But I doubt that. Let me know If you want a copy of the documentation I have for my board to see if it will help. > Doug Spence > ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > ------------------------------ > > On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > > Hey, let's have a contest. Let's see who can score the best lot of > > > classic computers this weekend. We can score each other based on the > > > type and age of the computers/software/accessories we got, then tally up > > > the points and whoever has the highest score gets a pat on the back. > What I bought: Atari 1200 XL, 1050 Disk Drive, and Supra Atari 300 baud modem (all sans power supplies *sigh*) for $15 at a flea market (need power supplies to test them still), and a (working!) Apple ImageWriter II for $14.95 at a thrift shop. Software. What I passed up: 2 CoCo 3s (bare), one for $15 one unknown 1 CoCo dual 5.25" Disk Drive price unknown 1 black/silver TI 99/4a (bare) $10 1 Atari 800 (bare, but had BASIC cart inside) $10 Plus/4, C-64, an MPS 801, tons of IBM clones didn't bother pricing. Oh! Last week I happend upon a Panasonic MSX unit! Looked interesting, unfortunately the guy couldn't sell it cause 'they haven't decided how much to price it' (hence it would probably be expensive), sure looked neat, had alot of I/O and noted a switch to change tape baud rates. (they had the tape program/books already out on the floor just waiting for kids to tear them apart.) Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From BigLouS at aol.com Mon Apr 21 22:34:30 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Extra Stuff Message-ID: <970421233404_-99053863@emout04.mail.aol.com> I'll take the 1000. I have a 68000 chip sitting around from my old Amiga and the drives are pretty easy to find. If it's still available let me know what the shipping is. Regards, Lou From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 21 22:56:26 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: atari printers Message-ID: <199704220356.VAA04625@calico.litterbox.com> FYI: Alltronics is selling the Atari 1020 color printer for 15 dollars. www.alltronics.com - they're in San Jose, California. Thought you Atari fans might want to know. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri Apr 18 12:21:49 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Extra Stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 22-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >I'll take the 1000. I have a 68000 chip sitting around from my old Amiga and >the drives are pretty easy to find. If it's still available let me know what >the shipping is. Lou, Just email me your address, and I'll figure out what the postage will be. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128, C128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From zmerch at northernway.net Tue Apr 22 08:11:47 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: atari printers In-Reply-To: <199704220356.VAA04625@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970422091147.007ce930@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Jim said: >FYI: Alltronics is selling the Atari 1020 color printer for 15 dollars. >www.alltronics.com - they're in San Jose, California. Thought you Atari fans >might want to know. FYI also: Tandy still sells pens for that printer, as it used the same internal workings as the Tandy CGP-115... IIRC $2.95 per tube of 3 pens, either 3 black, or one each red, blue & green. They have to be special ordered, but they ship right to your door for another $1. I just tested my 1020 with my new pens, and they work great! HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue Apr 22 12:35:34 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: atari printers In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970422091147.007ce930@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: Those arent the same pens that the Commodore 1520 plotter uses are they? Les From william at ans.net Tue Apr 22 12:46:51 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: DEC RK07 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704221746.AA15520@interlock.ans.net> I am going to try to fetch a pair of these beasts soon, and have questions... Does anyone have a decent estimate for their weight? How can I secure the heads for shipment? William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue Apr 22 19:00:15 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: DEC RK07 questions In-Reply-To: <199704221746.AA15520@interlock.ans.net>; from "William Donzelli" at Apr 22, 97 1:46 pm Message-ID: <199704221800.3418@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > I am going to try to fetch a pair of these beasts soon, and have questions... > > Does anyone have a decent estimate for their weight? Yes, very heavy. I seem to recall reading something like 150kg in the manual, but that included the stand and side panels. The drive alone probably weighs about 75-100kg, and takes 2 people to lift. The do come apart, from the top downwards. I can talk you through it if you like, but you'll need a good toolkit to do it. The basic sequence is : Remove rear cover, frontpanel, disk cover, disk cartridge holder, filter, fan assembly, cardcage, PSU, mains input bracket, main chassis, power transformer. Each bit is then liftable. > > How can I secure the heads for shipment? These drives _should_ be autolocking. There's a solenoid on the underside of the positioner to do this. Personally, I'd remove the rear cover (2 screws) and check that the positioner wouldn't move forwards. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue Apr 22 13:03:55 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer [fair?] Message-ID: Hi, I ve never been to this Trenton Computer Fair. What can I expect for things such as parking? Will I have to walk a mile and a half to get there? What is it really? Is it like a giant flea market? Is there admission? It will still be there on Sunday right? What kind of stuff do they have there? Is it all old stuff? Is it all new stuff? Do these people try and "rip" you off? [Im asking because Id like to pick up a CP/M machine here and dont want to pay $100 for it] Sory for all the questions! Les PS Anyone know how to get there from the Philly area? :) [never been to Trenton] From william at ans.net Tue Apr 22 13:30:45 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Collecting (quit whining and do something about it!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704221830.AA17914@interlock.ans.net> > Unfortunately, I don't know any scrap dealers around here, so I can't put > your technique to the test. I'm content going to car boot sales weekly. At > an average of two machines per week, it's fine by me (I mainly collect > micros, so trips to scrap dealers may be an overkill). I do not know what your scrap men are like, and anyway, most do not deal with home micros (old workstations, on the other hand, are starting to show up in large numbers). I suppose junk yard surfing is better for those into minis and such. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Tue Apr 22 13:47:14 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: DEC RK07 questions In-Reply-To: <199704221746.AA15520@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > I am going to try to fetch a pair of these beasts soon, and have questions... > > Does anyone have a decent estimate for their weight? > > How can I secure the heads for shipment? With an arc welder. :-)} -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From william at ans.net Tue Apr 22 13:36:22 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Scrap Dealers (was Re: Collecting) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204998715@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199704221836.AA18213@interlock.ans.net> > Here's a list of scrap dealers who buy obsolete computer equipment: > > Windfield Alloy, Inc. Lawrence, MA 800-626-1230/508-689-2470 Local > ComService Enterprises, Brooklyn, NY 718-332-2300/718-332-4471 Fax > Silicon Salvage Inc, Anaheim, CA 714-523-2425/714-523-2552 Fax > Texas Recycling & Refining, Houston, TX 713-443-2070/713-443-3973 Fax > Iowa Electronic Recovery, 800-232-2591/319-337-9548 Fax > Metaltech, 800-435-8636/603-524-2873 Fax > EnviRoSYS, 800-PRO-JUNK, surplus@crazybob.com I have had better luck with the independent father 'n son yards. Most of the bigger ones (not all!) can be unfreindly. Gary Green has an EXCELLENT junkyard near Baltimore (I will get more details). He has lots of BIG stuff (some quite old - a Univac tape drive from the late 1960's was the oldest thing I saw), and prices seem to be decent. Most things, however, are missing hard disks (ex NSA stuff), and too much has been out in the rain. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Tue Apr 22 14:15:24 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer [fair?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Apr 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > Hi, I > ve never been to this Trenton Computer Fair. > What can I expect for things such as parking? > Will I have to walk a mile and a half to get there? The later you get there, the farther away you park. There are shuttle buses from the more distant parking areas. You might want something with wheels to help carry your loot. And those light-duty luggage thingies just don't seem to have the load capacity. > What is it really? Is it like a giant flea market? Two large parking lots are essentially a flea market, with folks selling new and used gear. In the gym it's all new stuff like a regular sales show. I spend most of my time wandering the parking lots. > Is there admission? It will still be there on > Sunday right? What kind of stuff do they have there? Admission is $10 on Saturday for both days, $5 on Sunday. My fiance and I already have our motel reservation for Friday and Saturday night so as to get an early start. They've got all sorts of stuff for sale at the swap meet. The four years I've been going I've seen damned near everything. And I always start at the wrong end and miss by minutes the deal I would have killed for. (Which is the wrong end? Whichever end I start from. By Definition.) > Is it all old stuff? Is it all new stuff? Do > these people try and "rip" you off? [Im asking because > Id like to pick up a CP/M machine here and dont want to > pay $100 for it] Sory for all the questions! There's new stuff. There's old stuff. The vendors are human. They'll charge what they think they can get. Sunday afternoon the prices drop. And the dumpsters are filled with the stuff folks don't want to drag back home and hobbyists going for those special bargains. > Anyone know how to get there from the Philly area? :) > [never been to Trenton] It's not actually in Trenton. It's at Mercer County Community College. Can't help much with directions, as I've never been to Philadelphia in my life and I'm coming from up near Newark. There is a web site, that has directions and maps. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Apr 22 19:34:24 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Shopper Wanted for Trenton Computer Fest Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2049E0DCA@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Hi all, I'll pay a generous finder's fee & shipping for anyone who wants to keep an eye out at the TCF for the small list of machines I'm still looking for. If interested, please email for the list. thanks much, Kai From garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu Tue Apr 22 17:59:31 1997 From: garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu (Gary S. Katz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Scrap Dealers (was Re: Collecting) In-Reply-To: <199704221836.AA18213@interlock.ans.net> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204998715@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199704230259.WAA22763@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu> > Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:36:22 -0400 (EDT) > From: William Donzelli > Subject: Re: Scrap Dealers (was Re: Collecting) > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >SNIP< > Gary Green has an EXCELLENT junkyard near Baltimore (I will get more > details). He has lots of BIG stuff (some quite old - a Univac tape drive > from the late 1960's was the oldest thing I saw), and prices seem to be > decent. Most things, however, are missing hard disks (ex NSA stuff), and > too much has been out in the rain. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net Please do post this information. I will be moving to Baltimore in June and would be interested in scavenging a bit when we get there. -gk ***************************************************** Gary S. Katz 626C OEH University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA 15213 (412) 624-9347 voice (412) 624-5407 fax ***************************************************** From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Apr 24 06:38:21 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: PETS & the Silly Game In-Reply-To: <335C2110.B9F@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > I know pretty much PET software & usage, and have a bunch of good books > to help me on other aspects... ;) There used to be a copy of Osborne's "PET/CBM Personal Computer Guide" around here someplace, but I suspect my brother took it with him when he moved out, even though he's a C64 man. (Darn!) I really need to find a good shop with old computer books in it. All of the second-hand bookstores I've been to specifically state that they don't keep computer books or magazines older than 5 years (or so) old. :/ > Never heard of that, but I did have a friend who tried expanding PET > memory by piggybacking RAM chips ; that fried his... (beware, he's > still out there...) Interesting. I performed the piggyback RAM hack on my Amiga 1000 (back when it was worth real money) and that seems to still be holding up. I *don't* want to do that to my PET, though. :) (In fact, in retrospect, I wish I hadn't done it to my Amiga, either - I should've bought an Insider board instead and keept the Amiga in its original condition. I wasn't a collector yet, though. :) ) > > Anyway, is it still possible to get 6550s anywhere? And if not, is there > > a replacement that could be used? > > MOS technologies found out they wern't good RAM manufacturers, the > comptible and available chip number you seek is 2114. Which I have > found in a Jameco Catalog (415-592-8097) OK, cool. I'm actually need some 2114s for repairs to a VIC-20 3K Expander cartridge, too, so I can just buy more of them when I actually get myself to a place that sells them. BTW: Who here thinks I'm crazy for wanting to run an "old-time BBS" off a VIC-20? Who here thinks it's impossible? :) > Wow! An MTU sound board! Got to hear a demonstration of it some 15 > years ago, pretty nice sound! One of these days I might come across one > of 'em for my own. The local high school had three PETs with these sound boards, and this is one of them. (Curiously, at the time, the "Computer Science" department of the same high school only had a single TRS-80 Model I and an Altair 8800.) The music teacher wrote software to teach scales and chords, in BASIC, based on the Cursor #4 tape's cover program. I found copies of these things in my brother's cassette collection (I was still in elementary school at the time the PETs were in use). The sound generated by the board *is* nice. I had an online friend over during the holidays, who collects old synthesizers, and he was quite impressed with the thing. Too bad I couldn't find the cassette with the professional music software on it (I forget what it's called) that lets you compose the music on the staff on the screen, and that scrolls the music as it plays. It's really impressive for an 8K machine! > Back to RAM, from the next paragraph I would say that you can add via > that expansion > board. But just in case I'm mistaken, here is something I found in > Nick Hampshire's > PET Revealed: > > ... The old 8K machines used 4K bit static RAMs, these were one of two > types the 6550 and the 2114. Both these chips are functionally > indentical in most respects since they are organised as 1K by 4 bits. > The latest versions of the static RAM 8K machines used the 6550.... Interesting that he says the latest versions of the 8K machines use the 6550... It's possible the old 8K here with the miniature multicoloured keyboard (love that thing!) had its RAM replaced at some point. It was, after all, an abused school machine, and the lid wasn't screwed down. (The sockets in that particular machine are so bad there's no point in screwing the lid down! Having to re-seat chips is a regular occurrence.) > ... The new 32K and 16K dynamic RAM machines use the 4116 memory chip > and the dynamic 8K the 4108. These two RAM chips are pin compatable, > with the 4116 having 16K bits of memory and the 4108 8K bits. This is > useful since it allows the same circuit board to be used for all sizes > of machine. Memory on the 16 and 32K machines is organised as two banks > each of 16K bytes, only one bank being implemented in the 16K.... So I guess Commodore stopped drilling holes in motherboards to prevent upgrade? :) I was hoping these numbers would match something on that expansion board, but they don't. :/ The majority of the non-MOSTEK chips that appear to be memory chips, are marked with MM5298J-4A, one is MM5290J-3, another is MM5290N-3... oops! I take the last paragraph back! One of the non-gold-plated MOSTEK chips is a 4116! We have identification! :) Assuming all these chips are the same, this was a 16K RAM board. This'd be nice to get running. > Sounds like an Expandamem or ExpandaPET to me, I have the docs for it, I > think it has schematics and stuff. Mine have the same chips too, look > like tiny ROMs or EPROMs.. Yeah, those chips are bizarre. > > The board is dead, BTW. The PET won't operate with the board plugged in. > > It just comes up with a screenful of garbage characters. > [clip] > > Both connectors on the cable that leads from the expansion board to the > > motherboard are noticeably burnt. In both cases, the burn marks surround > > the pin that connects to the black wire. > > OUCH!!!! That's gotta hurt... Hope you figure out what did that. I doubt I will. Presumably it was caused by some kind of accident, not through some fault in the PET, because the PET the board came in has been running for a couple of years (with the other PET's RAM in it) and hasn't experienced any problems. The memory board, though, is of course quite suspect. Perhaps I should replace those capacitors and regulators before I replace the RAM and try to fire it up again? (How would one test a capacitor to see if it's OK?) > > The only identifying mark on the board is the text: > > R 3014 > > rev. > > C > > COPYRIGHT 1978 R.C.Factor > > My ExpandaPET book has (c) 1979 Computhink (yours could be an earlier > version?), also my board has four breadboard (edgecard) sockets to add > devices like disk drive controller cards and the like. There aren't any extra connectors on my board. The only connectors are for power in, power out, and the one that plugs into the side expansion connector. > The only other thing I could think of it being (if it had a patch into > the monitor connector) would be a Visible Memory (hi-res graphics) > board. But I doubt that. Oooh... I wish. :) I didn't think you could even get such a thing for a 2001, I thought graphics boards were the domain of the 8032 and like systems. No idea why I'd think there'd be such limitations on one PET and not on another, though. :) > Let me know If you want a copy of the documentation I have for my board > to see if it will help. I'll pass on that (for now, anyway) as it seems to be a simple RAM board. If I replace all the parts, it should work, and presumable there's nothing I'd really have to know about to use it. :) BTW, there's also another piece of bizarre PET expansion around the house somewhere... Another 16K of expansion, actually. That's what those large music files were created with. But the thing is HUGE and it consists of exposed circuit boards, so I didn't particularly want to use it in its current state. This memory expansion has its own power supply. The cable from the expansion connector on the side of the PET goes to the top edge of a large board that is in turn plugged into a socket on a long expansion bus type of thing (with the Vector Graphics label on it). There is another board of equal size to the first also plugged into this expansion bus, right beside it. There are only the two sockets on the long PCB of the expansion bus, but it'd be easy to add more sockets. I should dig this thing out to see if there's anything else interesting to say about it. Seems like an awful lot of space for 16K. My little internal board would be much nicer. This strange contraption wouldn't be some kind of interface between the PET and an S100 bus, would it? (THAT would be cool!) How would I know an S100 bus if I saw one? :) > Larry Anderson > > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare > Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From starling at umr.edu Thu Apr 24 11:04:08 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Old Computer Books (was Re: Pets & Silly Game) In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at Apr 24, 97 07:38:21 am Message-ID: <199704241604.LAA03521@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > There used to be a copy of Osborne's "PET/CBM Personal Computer Guide" > around here someplace, but I suspect my brother took it with him when he > moved out, even though he's a C64 man. (Darn!) I really need to find a > good shop with old computer books in it. All of the second-hand > bookstores I've been to specifically state that they don't keep computer > books or magazines older than 5 years (or so) old. :/ I've found that one of the best sources for old computer books and magazines is often overlooked... the LIBRARY. Most public libraries have a nice collection of books on old personal computers from the 1st wave of PC popularity (early 80s). I know that my hometown (Austin, TX) has a huge collection of books with titles like "6502 Assembly Projects" and "1001 things to do with your PET". Plus, most libraries archive magazines. My university has a full set of many computer magazines that have been around since the 70s such as Byte. However, if you're looking to own the books or magazines, this doesn't help. But if you're just looking for info or wanting to get some kicks by reading old stuff, your local public or university library is a great place to start. From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Thu Apr 24 12:34:56 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: A Few More Items on Auctionweb Message-ID: <335F99C0.661A@oboe.calpoly.edu> I put a few more items on Auctionweb. My apologies to those who aren't interested but I did receive quite a few positive responses to my last post. There are pictures of most of the items posted also. Tandy 1000 HX system, 3.5 FD (photo) Current bid: $15.50 Auction ends on: 04/29/97, 17:19:16 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=ruc07286 Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer I (photo) Current bid: $5.00 Auction ends on: 04/30/97, 00:22:16 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=diy3257 Radio Shack TRS-80 5 MB Ext. Hard Drive (pic) Bidding starts at: $3.00 Auction ends on: 04/30/97, 00:34:36 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=qhp59201 Lot of 2 Commodore 1541 Drives (white) Bidding starts at: $3.00 Auction ends on: 04/30/97, 00:41:24 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=gcr4972 Orig. Mouse for Macintosh 128/512/Plus (pic) Current bid: $3.00 Auction ends on: 04/30/97, 00:54:21 PDT http://www.ebay.com/aw/item.cgi?item=fgt955 From groberts at mitre.org Thu Apr 24 12:43:29 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Old Computer Books (was Re: Pets & Silly Game) In-Reply-To: <199704241604.LAA03521@saucer.cc.umr.edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970424134329.007b5660@postman> At 11:04 AM 4/24/97 -0500, Starling wrote: >I've found that one of the best sources for old computer books and >magazines is often overlooked... the LIBRARY... However, if you're >looking to own the books or magazines, this doesn't help. actually my experience has been the Library *is* a good place to find old computer books to *own*. our local libraries routinely sell off older books that they don't feel are pertinent any more. they cost 50 cents (paperback) or $1 (hardback)... so stop in at your local library's book sale booth and you might pick up a classic or two. - gfr +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Apr 24 13:08:38 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Old Computer Books (was Re: Pets & Silly Game) In-Reply-To: <199704241604.LAA03521@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: I would say that the library is the best place to find these things. I found a Vic-20 Programmers Reference Guide in my local one. They even let me have it for $5! Les From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri Apr 18 19:38:35 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: PETS & the Silly Game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 24-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >BTW: Who here thinks I'm crazy for wanting to run an "old-time BBS" off a >VIC-20? Who here thinks it's impossible? :) Doug, There are 4 BBS's locally running on the C-64 using the 'Color-64' BBS program. Of course, they're mainly geared towards the Commodore crowd and the C-64, but they are quite interesting. One of them is the official board of the local Commodore 64/128 user group. It still shows people are still running BBS's using the older hardware though! Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128, C128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From transit at primenet.com Thu Apr 24 23:54:24 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Old Computer Books (was Re: Pets & Silly Game) In-Reply-To: <199704241604.LAA03521@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: > I've found that one of the best sources for old computer books and > magazines is often overlooked... the LIBRARY. Most public libraries have > a nice collection of books on old personal computers from the 1st wave of > PC popularity (early 80s). [...] > However, if you're looking to own the books or magazines, this doesn't > help. But if you're just looking for info or wanting to get some kicks > by reading old stuff, your local public or university library is a great > place to start. > Of course, many libraries do hold "book sales" in order to dispose of "obsolete" materials . . .I've snagged several old computer books from public library book sales. From dastar at crl.com Fri Apr 25 01:54:17 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: PETS & the Silly Game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > Interesting. I performed the piggyback RAM hack on my Amiga 1000 (back > when it was worth real money) and that seems to still be holding up. I > *don't* want to do that to my PET, though. :) (In fact, in retrospect, I > wish I hadn't done it to my Amiga, either - I should've bought an Insider > board instead and keept the Amiga in its original condition. I wasn't a > collector yet, though. :) ) Don't worry. It just adds character to the machine. You can just say some "unknown" hacker made the mod if anyone asks. And don't forget to mention it adds character to the machine. > BTW: Who here thinks I'm crazy for wanting to run an "old-time BBS" off a > VIC-20? Who here thinks it's impossible? :) Not me. Of course its totally possible. As soon as there are 27 hours in the day I'm going to be putting up and old style BBS on my Sinclair ZX80! (Just kidding, it'll be on a Linux box probably, but I'll just say it runs on a Sinclair). > This strange contraption wouldn't be some kind of interface between the > PET and an S100 bus, would it? (THAT would be cool!) How would I know an > S100 bus if I saw one? :) It would have slots that have 100 pin connectors (50 on side side, 50 on the other). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Fri Apr 25 02:45:42 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Computer Books Message-ID: <33606126.15B9@oboe.calpoly.edu> I'll have to agree on the library as a good source of books. I recently was looking in our library here at school and couldn't find a newer book on PC's. There were quite a few old programming/hardware books from the 70's and a complete set of an old computer magazine from the 60's to the present. Great fun to look at the prices and advertising. And they do sell them. My friend found a book on Volkswagens from the early 60's....$2. Just ask at the circulation desk. They don't have to be in the book sale, just old enough to be of no general value in their eyes. Another good place to look is the Goodwill, thrift sores, etc. Most of us probably already do that but I thought Id mention it. At our local store, customers trash whatever comes neatly in any box. (sad, the disks get thrown around and power supplies disappear too) When they clean up they just pile the manuals on the shelf next to the Danielle Steel novels. I found a complete set of manuals for an Apple III a while back. Tons of Commodore programming guides. Software carts and disks end up in the cassette tape section for some reason. If interested, I could grab whatever I find and sell to interested parties here for cost + shipping. Usually .50 a book + postage. I really don't have the room (or the time) to stockpile books. I just buy what matches the systems I have at the time or what seems rare. Greg From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 25 15:57:43 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Freebie Message-ID: <33621973.2428728@smtp.ix.netcom.com> I have a printer which doesn't work and I don't know why. (And don't want to mess with it) Rather than junk it (saving parts) I'll offer it to anyone who'll pay shipping costs from zip code 73162. It's a Okidata 292 with a serial interface module (which might work) but minus the knob. The power led does come on but it does not self-test. You've got a week to rescue it. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From jeffh at eleventh.com Sat Apr 19 09:21:13 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Aquisitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, the weekend has just started, and I've made yet another haul of program tapes for the Timex-Sinclair, this time mostly business applications. This brings the total number of original T/S-1000 and ZX-81 tapes to 12, with a total of 20 original tapes of all types! Some of them will run on the 2k machine, while most require the 16k expansion. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128, C128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sat Apr 26 01:17:26 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: PETS & Used Books References: <199704250702.AAA35148@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33619DF6.4F2B@goldrush.com> > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:38:21 -0400 (EDT) > From: Doug Spence > There used to be a copy of Osborne's "PET/CBM Personal Computer Guide" > around here someplace, but I suspect my brother took it with him when he > moved out, even though he's a C64 man. (Darn!) I really need to find a > good shop with old computer books in it. All of the second-hand > bookstores I've been to specifically state that they don't keep computer > books or magazines older than 5 years (or so) old. :/ The Osborne is a good reference, but there are more indepth books, such as Programming the PET/CBM and PET Revealed. Pity about the stores, I too have noticed that, and if the owners of said store don't have any clue about computers they usually opt not to take any computer books (they probably got burned with a bunch of punch-card computer text books years back...) > Interesting. I performed the piggyback RAM hack on my Amiga 1000 (back > when it was worth real money) and that seems to still be holding up. No this was not an expansion job, this was a direct piggy back of chips, no bending out pins here, like I said it was a pretty stupid thing, that never stopped him. > BTW: Who here thinks I'm crazy for wanting to run an "old-time BBS" off a > VIC-20? Who here thinks it's impossible? :) Heck I have been and still am sysop a Commodore 64 BBS for ten years now. If you want some BASIC BBS programs to start with (written for 64, but I'm sure can be easily modified for VIC) I know I have some archived here...somewhere. > (music program)in BASIC, based on the Cursor #4 tape's cover program. I found copies of these > things in my brother's cassette collection (I was still in elementary > school at the time the PETs were in use). Hey brother, could you spare a copy for a friend in need? I'll even supply you with a tape-to-disk program for the 64 that will make the transfer a snap! > Too bad I couldn't find the cassette with the > professional music software on it (I forget what it's called) that lets > you compose the music on the staff on the screen, and that scrolls the > music as it plays. It's really impressive for an 8K machine! I remember an ad about one that AB computers was selling I can't remember it's name either. (maestro maybe?) > ...the old 8K here with the miniature multicoloured > keyboard (love that thing!) Sure is nice, I got mine (original PET) from a friend including ALOT of the original documentation, an extra tape drive (Commodore was butchering SANYO tape recorders to begin with), some newsletters (that later turned into popular magazines) and tapes, a splendid addition! I worry about it though, I'm not sure whether it has ROMs or EPROMS, whatever they are they are the original (you know those thin white DIP packages.) >It was, after all, an abused school machine, and the lid wasn't screwed down. (The > sockets in that particular machine are so bad there's no point in screwing > the lid down! Having to re-seat chips is a regular occurrence.) Most of mine are school machines, they sure take a lickin though, the ROM seating problem is common. I have read of people sugessting to replace them with quality drilled sockets. (maybe one of these years...) > So I guess Commodore stopped drilling holes in motherboards to prevent > upgrade? :) Nope, Finally got one with a hole drilled (never heard about it before that) I think it was later in the line that they started. I guess they wanted to make darn sure that if someone bought a 4016 at a discount that was only what they were gonna get. > Assuming all these chips are the same, this was a 16K RAM board. This'd > be nice to get running. I would have thought it to be more. :/ > (How would one test a capacitor to see if it's OK?) No idea from me, anyone? (on possibility of it being a Visible Memory Board) > Oooh... I wish. :) I didn't think you could even get such a thing for a > 2001, I thought graphics boards were the domain of the 8032 and like > systems. No idea why I'd think there'd be such limitations on one PET and > not on another, though. :) Actually one of my PETs has one (I used it in high school), the graphics could overlay the PET character screen too! Unfortunately the PET had a mother board replacement and the jumpers are now wrong, and I'm without docs, so it is not fully functional. Pitty I got a great Space War done like Star Trek game for it. From an ad I still do have, the MTU Visible Mmory Board was deveoped for the KIM-1 and then adapted for the PET, so it's been around for a while. Same for the sound board, it mentions Hal Chamberlin developing it for the KIM originally too (want a copy of the ad for collection sake?) > BTW, there's also another piece of bizarre PET expansion around the house > somewhere... Another 16K of expansion, actually. That's what those large > music files were created with. But the thing is HUGE and it consists of > exposed circuit boards, so I didn't particularly want to use it in its > current state. [clip] > > This strange contraption wouldn't be some kind of interface between the > PET and an S100 bus, would it? (THAT would be cool!) How would I know an > S100 bus if I saw one? :) You never know, there was alot of neat things out for the PET, color boards, Hi-Res, Disk Drive Multiplexers, UPS systems, Networking units, etc. ---------- > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:04:08 -0500 (CDT) > From: "Starling" > I've found that one of the best sources for old computer books and > magazines is often overlooked... the LIBRARY. Most public libraries have > a nice collection of books on old personal computers from the 1st wave of > PC popularity (early 80s). I remember donating a Peoples Computer Company Games Book to them after a few years they discarded it (probably sold it at a book sale), gosh, I wish I had gotten it back. :/ Not all libraries keep their older computer books. *sigh* > However, if you're looking to own the books or magazines, this doesn't > help. But if you're just looking for info or wanting to get some kicks > by reading old stuff, your local public or university library is a great > place to start. University microfilm - http://www.umi.com/ has several older (70s-80s, yeah, and 90s too...) computer magazines in film still available, prices are too steep for me presently but I may someday purchase some sets. --------- > Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 13:43:29 -0400 > From: Glenn Roberts > so stop in at your local library's book > sale booth and you might pick up a classic or two. > Unfortunately for the local library the good books are almost all gone. :( Thrift store bookshelves and flea markets have been really good to me lately though. ------------------------------ > Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:38:35 +0500 > From: hellige > Subject: Re: PETS & the Silly Game > There are 4 BBS's locally running on the C-64 using the 'Color-64' BBS > program. Of course, they're mainly geared towards the Commodore crowd and the > C-64, but they are quite interesting. One of them is the official board of > the local Commodore 64/128 user group. Many of them (commodore BBSs) are networked now, my board (which runs Image BBS) belongs to a network of 60 or so boards. In just a couple years the BBS program it runs will be eligible for discussion! ------------------------ > From: Sam Ismail > Subject: Re: PETS & the Silly Game > Don't worry. It just adds character to the machine. You can just say > some "unknown" hacker made the mod if anyone asks. And don't forget to > mention it adds character to the machine. I myself think you should take credit for the mod, since many of the 'card jockys' today don't know which end of a soldering iron is the business end. I've got a 64 with a second SID hack (not by me but paid by me), I am proud of that machine. Larry Anderson From BigLouS at aol.com Sat Apr 26 11:01:45 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) Message-ID: <970426120145_-566603668@emout20.mail.aol.com> > A guy at my > work is supposed to give me his, which he says is a ][, but he's not > always all there, so it could just be a ][+. But I would say a ][ is > probably worth about $100 with some accessories, like a disk drive and > monitor and the language card. I just swapped a bare II/E for a Bare II. Going price for a bare IIE is about $20 on the Apple newsgroups. Apple II's don't seem to be valued very much in the Apple II newsgroup or for sale group. Lou From dastar at crl.com Sat Apr 26 11:57:21 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: <970426120145_-566603668@emout20.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > > A guy at my > > work is supposed to give me his, which he says is a ][, but he's not > > always all there, so it could just be a ][+. But I would say a ][ is > > probably worth about $100 with some accessories, like a disk drive and > > monitor and the language card. > > I just swapped a bare II/E for a Bare II. Going price for a bare IIE is about > $20 on the Apple newsgroups. Apple II's don't seem to be valued very much in > the Apple II newsgroup or for sale group. Well, that's mostly because the machine isn't appreciated yet. Sure a trillion were made, but has anyone actually ever SEEN one? Yeah, sure, maybe a few of us, but I'm sure EVERYONE here can say they've seen a //e, a //c or even a //gs, but not the original, plain old vanilla ][. A //e would sell because it is still an extremely usable machine. Even if you added the 16k language card to a ][ and gave it a lowercase ROM and a shift-key mod, it still couldn't run a good deal of specific applications that make the apple ][ usable these days. Thus the ][ is considered a cripple. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Apr 26 14:52:38 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Apr 26, 97 09:57:21 am Message-ID: <9704261852.AA21192@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 972 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970426/63ba4bbd/attachment-0001.ksh From dastar at crl.com Sat Apr 26 18:01:23 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: <9704261852.AA21192@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Well, that's mostly because the machine isn't appreciated yet. Sure a > > trillion were made, but has anyone actually ever SEEN one? Yeah, sure, > > maybe a few of us, but I'm sure EVERYONE here can say they've seen a //e, > > a //c or even a //gs, but not the original, plain old vanilla ][. > > Actually, I hadn't seen a //c or //gs until just a year or two ago. > But I still have my vanilla II. > > Much more interesting to me than the original II are some of the > original Apple II software products. For example, the RAM version of > Applesoft, or some of the good old Integer Basic games like > Apple Trek and Pong, on original Apple cassette tapes. Good stuff. > Unfortunately, lots of these little items got thrown out when users > upgraded to disk drives. Yeah, you never really think of the cassette ports having been useful for anything but digitizing sound and maybe transferring copy protected games, or piping sound output to an external amplifier. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From pcoad at crl.com Sat Apr 26 18:50:38 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: weekend additions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I picked up some good stuff today. Here is the haul: One nearly mint copy of "More BASIC Computer Games" by David Ahl. One "The Best of Creative Computing V.3" by Ahl and Green. One boxed copy of Adventure for HP 150 and HP 110. (yes, THAT adventure). One boxed Commodore Plus/4. One Sun type 4 keyboard and mouse (not yet classic, but good none the less). Total: $11.00 I have a few questions: Can the Plus/4 run C64 software? In the user's manual there is a picture of a 1541 disk drive which looked black. It was a black and white picture, but the 1541s that I have seen all match the color scheme of the C64. Has anyone seen a black 1541? I now have volumes 1 and 3 of "The Best of Creative Computing", how many volumes where published? Anyone interested in a trade for Adventure? I don't have any HP machines, and would rather this go to someone who could back it up, and get some use out of it. This is the only piece of HP 150 or 110 software that I have ever seen. Happy hunting, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From pcoad at crl.com Sat Apr 26 19:12:10 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 26 Apr 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > > > I just swapped a bare II/E for a Bare II. Going price for a bare IIE is about > > $20 on the Apple newsgroups. Apple II's don't seem to be valued very much in > > the Apple II newsgroup or for sale group. > > Well, that's mostly because the machine isn't appreciated yet. Sure a > trillion were made, but has anyone actually ever SEEN one? Yeah, sure, > maybe a few of us, but I'm sure EVERYONE here can say they've seen a //e, > a //c or even a //gs, but not the original, plain old vanilla ][. > > A //e would sell because it is still an extremely usable machine. Even > if you added the 16k language card to a ][ and gave it a lowercase ROM > and a shift-key mod, it still couldn't run a good deal of specific > applications that make the apple ][ usable these days. Thus the ][ is > considered a cripple. > I remember seeing Apple II's (vanilla) for sale. The salesman told me about how much better this other machine (II+?) was since the II only had integer BASIC and uppercase. This was not too long after I had my first exposure to computers and was dying to get one of my own. I also remember seeing Apple III's and Atari 800's on sale at Weinstock's. There was a strange time for a while in the late 70's and early 80's when many department stores had a "computer department". This was the case in Sacramento, was it like that in other cities? --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jeffh at eleventh.com Sat Apr 26 12:07:02 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: weekend additions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 27-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Can the Plus/4 run C64 software? >In the user's manual there is a picture of a 1541 disk drive which looked >black. It was a black and white picture, but the 1541s that I have seen >all match the color scheme of the C64. Has anyone seen a black 1541? Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but the Plus/4 (like the C-16) was intended as an upgrade, and total break, from the C-64 and is incompatible in both hardware and software to the C-64. I've seen it said that this was one of the main reasons the machine never caught on. As for the color scheme of the 1541 though, the later 1541's were the ones that matched the brown color of the C-64. The earlier 1541's, labled VIC-1541, matched the lighter color of the VIC-20. It is the VIC-1541 that I have in my collection. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From dastar at crl.com Sun Apr 27 13:09:53 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > I also remember seeing Apple III's and Atari 800's on sale at Weinstock's. > There was a strange time for a while in the late 70's and early 80's when > many department stores had a "computer department". This was the case > in Sacramento, was it like that in other cities? It was like that in southern California as well. I remember going into Sears and Montgomery Wards and another department store all the time and the first place I would head to would be the computer "department" where I would play with the TI99/4a's and the commodores and the TRS-80s and wish I could have one. This was around 1982. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Apr 27 13:07:33 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: weekend additions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > I picked up some good stuff today. Here is the haul: > > One nearly mint copy of "More BASIC Computer Games" by David Ahl. I have this one too. > One "The Best of Creative Computing V.3" by Ahl and Green. > One boxed copy of Adventure for HP 150 and HP 110. (yes, THAT adventure). > One boxed Commodore Plus/4. > One Sun type 4 keyboard and mouse (not yet classic, but good none the less). > > Total: $11.00 That's pretty good. Here's my catch: Epson HX-20 "Notebook Computer" - this was an auction web purchase ($47) and is supposed to be the first "notebook". This is an awesome little gem. It has a built-in thermal printer and micro-cassette port for data storage. It has a 20 character by 4 line screen and a 16K expansion module. I was fortunate enough to be near enough to the seller to go pick it up. When I got to his place, he was about to throw out a bunch of other stuff, so I told him to use my trunk as the garbage can. This is what else I came away with: MacintoshPlus with external harddrive (now I've got two). Canon "Cat" V777 Work Processor (a standalone 68000 based, GUI-based, word processor with a 3.5" drive, parallel port, RS232C port and built-in modem...not quite a classic computer but it is circa 1987 and is neat-o). Morrow Pivot Portable - haven't had a chance to play with it yet but it is an early portable (about 12" high by 14" wide by 7" deep) with an LCD screen, built-in modem, 2 5.25" disk drives, parallel/serial ports and an expansion bus connector. Don't know what processor it has or how much RAM, but I was told it was an 8088 based system. Its actually a "personal digital assistant" with a phone dialer, calendar, calculator (all available from a front button panel) and I think it boots into DOS, although I haven't played with it long enough to know. Very Neat. Also, thanks to Jeff Hellige I was re-united with my boyhood computer (well, not THEE one but it will do) an Aquarius. Thanks Jeff! Its such a cool little machine. Now I just need to find all the different components I had for it, like the expander module, 4K memory carthridge, Utopia and some other game, the paddles and the thermal printer. I also got a couple TI/994a's for spare parts/trade and a CoCo2 (which is a variant from the one I have) off of auction web. I also scored the original IBM Personal Computer Operations Guide in mint condition from a thrift shop. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun Apr 27 02:40:42 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: emulator board help Message-ID: This is likely not really the right place to ask this, but nobody else in other groups has a clue about a 16bit ISA board I have. It is as follows: 16bit ISA board for IBM compatiblle 16mhz MC68020RC16B and MC68881RC16A processors 16 30 pin memory modules soldered directly to the circuit board each module contains 9 41256-120 RAM chips (NEC 8608E621) 1 DB-9 and 1 DB-25 connector (both male) on the rear cover plate Markings: "DSI-780" on the front, and "Rev B Copyright 1986 Definicon" on the rear There is also an empty socket, the same size as the 68020 socket. I aquired this board from a pile of misc. circuit boards that was being tossed out a couple of years ago, and have not been able to find out any information on it. Any info at all would be most helpful. To me, it appears to be some kind of hardware emulator for an Apple or Mac. I know in the late 80's there were a number of Apple II emulator boards for the PC running around, as I recall seeing them for sale in the Radio Shack catalogs of the period. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Sun Apr 27 19:51:49 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: emulator board help In-Reply-To: ; from "hellige" at Apr 27, 97 12:40 (noon) Message-ID: <199704271851.10805@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> [ISA board] > Markings: "DSI-780" on the front, and "Rev B Copyright 1986 > Definicon" on the rear > > There is also an empty socket, the same size as the 68020 socket. I seem to recall that Definicon made coprocessor boards (68000 series, and maybe 32016 series as well) for PC's. You rean special language compilers on the PC that converted your high-level source into machine code for the 68000 or whatever, and ran it on the coprocessor board It didn't (AFAIK) emulate any other standard computer - for all there was a 68020 in there, you couldn't run Mac (or Amiga, ST, or whatever) software on it. The rest of the machine was totally different. There was an article about them in Byte, sometime in the mid 1980's. I seem to remember it gave partial schematics for one of the boards. Don't ask me which issue it was, or where to find it... > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Sun Apr 27 14:32:26 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: weekend additions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, I'm not an expert on these, but... > Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but the Plus/4 (like the C-16) was > intended as an upgrade, and total break, from the C-64 and is incompatible in > both hardware and software to the C-64. I've seen it said that this was one > of the main reasons the machine never caught on. As for the color scheme of > the 1541 though, the later 1541's were the ones that matched the brown color > of the C-64. The earlier 1541's, labled VIC-1541, matched the lighter color > of the VIC-20. It is the VIC-1541 that I have in my collection. The Plus/4, I think, was completely software incompatible with the C64 line. The hardware was a different story - as it used the same serial bus as the 64. Most C64 peripherals were compatible. There was also a line of hardware designed to go with the Plus/4 that was all done in black. The black disk drive was not actually a 1541 but a 1551. There was at least a printer and a modem designed specifically for this line. The C2N cassette was also compatible I think and recased, for a brief period, in black. As for the 1541 disk drives - Commodore was always confusing with those. Of the drives labelled 1541 there were at least 4 models - which were called by different numbers internally. The drive labelled VIC-1541 which is VIC in color is actually a 1540. There are also 2 models in original C64 color which differ internally and are actually the 1541 and 1542. Then, when the later slimline C64 came out they repackaged the drive and made yet more revisions to it and called it the 1541-II. Does anyone know if anyone other than Commodore ever got into writing software for the Plus/4? Did Commodore ever make anything other than the built-in apps? Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Sun Apr 27 16:53:55 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Alignment Disks Message-ID: Hi all. Anyone know where alignment disks can be purchased these days? Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun Apr 27 09:28:43 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: emulator board help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 28-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >I seem to recall that Definicon made coprocessor boards (68000 series, and >maybe 32016 series as well) for PC's. You rean special language compilers >on the PC that converted your high-level source into machine code for the >68000 or whatever, and ran it on the coprocessor board What would be the point in doing this though, if the board didn't emulate a specific 68000 series computer? Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From KFergason at aol.com Sun Apr 27 23:33:09 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: emulator board help Message-ID: <970428003308_940855047@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-27 14:49:28 EDT, you write: << Markings: "DSI-780" on the front, and "Rev B Copyright 1986 Definicon" on the rear >> The Definicon coprocessor board for the PC. You could basically compile and run Fortran programs in the coprocessor. Not Mac related. sorta dated now, but cool at the time. Mine seems to have a bad Simm, and would fail periodically. I haven't used it in years. Kelly From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon Apr 28 00:07:10 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: Atari prob, etc. References: <199704270702.AAA05522@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3364307E.1339@goldrush.com> Had a huge success at a local thrift store this saturday, much of it is components < 10 years old. But I did find a Power Supply for an Atari Computer (Ihave aquired an 800, 1200xk and 1050 all sans Power Supplies). Soooo.. today I hooked the buggers in one by one: The 800, powered up like a champ! Got the Atari FAQs up and determined I have an 800 with a GITA and the BASIC cartridge is Revision A. The 1200XL is a different matter, Powered up, got the logo, went to diagnostics, sound O.K., Memory looks good, but keyboard... I can get the top row (reset,start,select,option, & help) working but the other keys seem dead. The strange thing is I gboot up BASIC and I press a letter and the computer responds with it's 'click' sound but no key (maybe something in the decoding logic???) Any Atarians got a clue? Since I only have the one power supply I had to power up the 1050 as a standalone the head did a quick back-fourth motion and the activity light stopped so that seems to be a promising sign. Second request: When I get a second supply I gonna kinda need a disk to run on this thing, can anyone help set me up with some essential disks (DOS, utilities, maybe some common games, etc.) I can trade for some fine Commodore Programs and such. (=)) One yard sale find was a batch of Radio Electronics Magazines, dated back in the 80s... Will have to scan through those closely. At first I thought I'd just weed out the ones I wanted and pass on the rest, but I've made that mistake once before.... They will go into storage. Yet another yard sale purchase was a 64 system (I dare not count how many I have), so far so good, the C64 and power supply are fully functional and the keyboard is amazingly clean (i.e. all the keys work, even though It looks like someone tracked mud on the computer). I still have to test the monitor and 1541, but I feel confident they will function. -- >From: Paul E Coad >Subject: weekend additions >I picked up some good stuff today. Here is the haul: >One nearly mint copy of "More BASIC Computer Games" by David Ahl. >One "The Best of Creative Computing V.3" by Ahl and Green. >One boxed copy of Adventure for HP 150 and HP 110. (yes, THAT >adventure). >One boxed Commodore Plus/4. >One Sun type 4 keyboard and mouse (not yet classic, but good none the >>less). >Total: $11.00 Good haul! I would've paid that much for that Creative Computing book. >I have a few questions: >Can the Plus/4 run C64 software? BASIC, pretty much so, except if there are POKEs and SYS commands in it it may need some converting, some BASIC may not be easy or possible mainly if there is sprite or sound usage as those chips are VERY different then on the 64. There are some good FTP sites for the Plus/4, just make sure when you download games and demos they are NTSC and not PAL, (PAL graphics are unviewable on an NTSC Plus/4), there are game conversions available (Jim Hehl is probably the most noted for converting programs 64 and Plus/4 european to the American Plus/4 platform). This reminds me I really need to get the adapter pinouts of the Joysticks and the Cassette port on my web page. (whisper.. "if you write it they will browse...") >In the user's manual there is a picture of a 1541 disk drive which looked >black. It was a black and white picture, but the 1541s that I have seen >all match the color scheme of the C64. Has anyone seen a black 1541? Not me, though you can tell Commodore was toying with the idea (on the Plus/4, C-16, MPS-803, DPS-1101, and the 1531 datasette for the Plus/4/16) It could have been the rare Commodore 1551 disk drive. Commodore's attempt at a fast parallel drive. It was to hook into the parallel port of the Plus/4 and delivered a great speed improvement over the 1541 (not too hard of a feat.) I hear it was released in Europe but not in the states. >I now have volumes 1 and 3 of "The Best of Creative Computing", how many >volumes where published? I think they stopped with volume 3, I remember they closed out a bunch of their inventory to schools (which included vols 1-3) at about $100 or so, that was sometime in 1982. Gosh I wish I had all that stuff today: posters, computer music record, books, etc. >Happy hunting, ------------ >From: hellige >Subject: Re: weekend additions > Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but the Plus/4 (like the C-16) was >intended as an upgrade, and total break, from the C-64 and is incompatible in >both hardware and software to the C-64. I've seen it said that this was one >of the main reasons the machine never caught on. As for the color scheme of >the 1541 though, the later 1541's were the ones that matched the brown color >of the C-64. The earlier 1541's, labled VIC-1541, matched the lighter color >of the VIC-20. It is the VIC-1541 that I have in my collection. The 1541 is VERY compatible with the Plus/4 and Commodore 16 (thank goodness!) You can adapt a datasette to use on the Plus/4 but Commodore decided to change the pitches at which the data is recorded thus making it impossible to interchange data via tape between other Commodore 8-bits. The format and timing are the same from what I understand. Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From KFergason at aol.com Mon Apr 28 00:32:01 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: emulator board help Message-ID: <970428013200_-1133103114@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-27 21:51:43 EDT, you write: << What would be the point in doing this though, if the board didn't emulate a specific 68000 series computer? >> It was designed for number crunching. It was much faster than Microsoft Fortran on an 8088, or the 80286. Kelly From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun Apr 27 16:18:01 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:17 2005 Subject: emulator board help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 28-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >The Definicon coprocessor board for the PC. You could basically >compile and run Fortran programs in the coprocessor. Not Mac >related. sorta dated now, but cool at the time. That's interesting. It makes sense considering where I got it as well...lots of engineers and R&D work. Looks like he board had a bit more memory on it than the average PC of the time. >Mine seems to have a bad Simm, and would fail periodically. I haven't used >it in years. Would you still have the disks for it? Do you know if there was any type of diagnostic on the disk to determine if this board is functional or not? Thanks. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun Apr 27 16:22:27 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: Atari prob, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 28-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Since I only have the one power supply I had to power up the 1050 as a One thing about Atari 8bit stuff is a lot of it tended to use it's own power rating on the power supply, and not really interchangeable between most of it, it seems. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From dastar at crl.com Mon Apr 28 04:25:14 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: *** Preliminary Announcement *** First Annual Classic Computer Collector Conference Why? Next question... Where? Livermore, California (tentative...actual venue TBD) When? Late Summer 1997 (possibly August) Who? Organizer: Sam Ismail Sponsors: Pending (targeted sponsors will be Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories and other computer manufacturers in the local area and Silicon Valley). What? The Classic Computer Collector Convention is slated to be the premier computer faire to attend to meet with fellow classic computer collector geeks, buy/sell/trade classic computer stuff, exchange classic computer software and classic computer hints and tips, attend workshops on classic computer preservation and restoration, and of course see classic computers. Some show features: Classic Computer Spotlight - every year a legendary system is chosen to be heralded as the classic computer of the year (nominees for the first show are Altair 8800; Apple ][; Commodore PET; ???). Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an individual from the annals of computer lore will be chosen as the Classic Computer Pioneer of the year. This would be someone who had a lasting legacy or made a historical impact on the computer industry, but is not necessarily active anymore (ie. this precludes Bill Gates from qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? Classic Computer Museum - A classic museum will be set-up on-site to allow interested public to see what classic computers are all about. Attendees will be encouraged to submit their favorite classics for display during the show. The success of the show will depend on attendance. Admission will be enough to cover the costs of running the show (including lease of the venue, advertising, etc). Although there won't be much of a vending atmosphere (unless people want to haul their stuff from all over the country) space will be sold for such purposes. More details as I come up with them. I would really appreciate feedback from the patrons of this discussion group. Any ideas, comments, suggestions are welcome (please suggest a better name!) IMPORTANT: Please keep this information within this discussion group until the details have been finalized and the show is a go. I don't want to announce to the general public until I am sure this event will take place. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Apr 28 04:51:50 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: Old Computer Books (was Re: Pets & Silly Game) In-Reply-To: <199704241604.LAA03521@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Starling wrote: > I've found that one of the best sources for old computer books and > magazines is often overlooked... the LIBRARY. Most public libraries have > a nice collection of books on old personal computers from the 1st wave of > PC popularity (early 80s). Actually, I've become fairly well acquainted with the old computer book collection of the university library here. They do have some great books, including a couple on the KIM-1. It was from library books that I learned how to use CP/M. But the only PET books this library has are things like collections of type-in programs for the PET, and books on using the PET in an educational environment. Nothing good and technical. Possibly the coolest thing apart from the book on KIM-1 interfacing projects, though, is the book the library has on the Memotech MTX512's BASIC. I borrowed that one and ended up typing up a small manual into an AmigaGuide document in case I ever should run across such a beast. > I know that my hometown (Austin, TX) has a > huge collection of books with titles like "6502 Assembly Projects" and > "1001 things to do with your PET". Plus, most libraries archive > magazines. My university has a full set of many computer magazines that > have been around since the 70s such as Byte. My university's library had a whole floor dedicated to periodicals, but that library was closed and I haven't seen a sign of that material since the new library opened. I suppose I should ask someone if they kept the stuff. > However, if you're looking to own the books or magazines, this doesn't > help. But if you're just looking for info or wanting to get some kicks > by reading old stuff, your local public or university library is a great > place to start. I find that most of the computer-related books in this library are too theoretical. There really isn't that much that is linked to one piece of hardware. I did find a few good books in a Salvation Army store on Thursday, though. I was hoping for some hardware (they had NONE), but I'm quite pleased with some of the books I found. Nothing involving the PET, though. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Apr 28 05:05:17 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: BBSes on old hardware and SuperVIC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, hellige wrote: > Doug, > > There are 4 BBS's locally running on the C-64 using the 'Color-64' BBS > program. Of course, they're mainly geared towards the Commodore crowd and the > C-64, but they are quite interesting. One of them is the official board of > the local Commodore 64/128 user group. It still shows people are still > running BBS's using the older hardware though! Yeah, there are still a few C64 BBSes running around here, too, and one on an Atari 800 as well, last time I checked. But let's just say that I find that the VIC-20 has a certain mystique about it, and as it is generally used as an example of "wimpy and laughable" by those people who still remember what it was (many people don't even know what you're talking about when you say "VIC-20" to them anymore) I though it would be extremely cool to run a BBS on one. Actually, I also want to build a kind of "SuperVIC" machine. I want it to ba a luggable like my TeleVideo or Kaypro II, only sitting vertically at all times like a mini tower or something. I'd use the guts of a small portable TV as the screen, put a standard serial port on it, and have the keyboard snap onto its face. I'd put at least 32K in it, with a memory protection toggle on the RAM so that it could run images of cartridges from disk. I think I'd want two disk drives in it. With everything running off a single power supply. Well, *I* think it'd be cool, even if everyone else doesn't. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From marcw at lightside.com Mon Apr 28 03:11:37 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: Software database for you collector-types Message-ID: <199704281022.DAA10960@covina.lightside.com> Howdy, I just thought of something. Are any of you using a database to catalogue what software you use/have for these old machines? I've got a database that came on a Big Blue Disk back around '88 called Software Indexer. It's small and all but has some nice features including cascading menus with a lot of pre-defined categories. These can be edited/deleted/added to. There's not much data entry because of the menus/pick-lists. Once you type in the name of the program everything else is a matter of choosing what's there except for the comments field. Here's examples that may interest you (jeez I sound like I'm spamming a new product here). Example/sample of menu selections: System Macintosh MFS (Old format) HFS (Current format) Lisa Office System Apple II Series Apple ProDOS 8 Apple ProDOS 16 Apple DOS 3.3 Apple DOS 3.2 Apple CP/M Apple Pascal Apple GEOS Apple /// (SOS) CP/M CP/M-80 CP/M-86 CP/M-68K Orphan Machines Timex/Sinclair TI 99/4 TI Professional Osborne Exidy Sorcerer CompuColor 2 SOL-20 Ohio Scientific Altair Cromemco Mainframes DecSystem-10/PDP-10 DecSystem-20 RSTS Multics Minicomputers IBM System 34/36 DEC VAX (VMS) PDP-11 Video Game Systems Atari VCS (2600) Atari 5200 Atari 7800 ColecoVision Magnavox Odyssey 2 Sega Master System (more) Medium 5.25" floppy Double-density High-density Single-sided "Flippy" 8" floppy "Twiggy" (old Lisa) And all the other stuff. Atari's, Amiga's, Commodore's, Intel x86, etc. Other categories/menus are Distribution & Category. All customizable 'til you run out of menu space (easy to do). Anyhind, if anyone's interested I can zip it up and send it to whoever's interested. It is/was shareware. I used to get Big Blue Disk but don't remember if I got this from there or from a BBS way back when. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com (finger at: marcw@mail.lightside.com) marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Apr 28 06:57:04 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: PETS & the Silly Game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 24 Apr 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > > Interesting. I performed the piggyback RAM hack on my Amiga 1000 (back > > when it was worth real money) and that seems to still be holding up. I > > *don't* want to do that to my PET, though. :) (In fact, in retrospect, I > > wish I hadn't done it to my Amiga, either - I should've bought an Insider > > board instead and keept the Amiga in its original condition. I wasn't a > > collector yet, though. :) ) > > Don't worry. It just adds character to the machine. You can just say > some "unknown" hacker made the mod if anyone asks. And don't forget to > mention it adds character to the machine. Nah, I may as well claim the credit. I think it says more for my bravery than my skill, though, because I did a really messy job and it's some sort of minor miracle that it worked. (I was too imatient to get it done and didn't wait to collect the right tools first... ended up having to REBUILD pins on chips on the motherboard that had been sheared off to barely-visible protrusions of metal, using model railroad connectors.) > > BTW: Who here thinks I'm crazy for wanting to run an "old-time BBS" off a > > VIC-20? Who here thinks it's impossible? :) > > Not me. Of course its totally possible. As soon as there are 27 hours > in the day I'm going to be putting up and old style BBS on my Sinclair > ZX80! (Just kidding, it'll be on a Linux box probably, but I'll just say > it runs on a Sinclair). Now, I think I'll declare a ZX80-run BBS as an impossibility, if only because I really want to see it done and I know that whenever anything is declared "impossible" it just acts as added incentive to hackers. ;) > > This strange contraption wouldn't be some kind of interface between the > > PET and an S100 bus, would it? (THAT would be cool!) How would I know an > > S100 bus if I saw one? :) > > It would have slots that have 100 pin connectors (50 on side side, 50 on > the other). Actually, I just picked up an excellent book entitled "The Micro-Computer Builder's Bible" by Chris Johnston, and it's got some pictures of S100 boards in it (I like the one labeled "A typical 4K static board"). It looks like the chances are excellent that what I've got is an S100 bus interface for the PET, but I really have to drag the thing out of storage to count the pins on it to make sure. If it IS an S100 bus interface, I wonder where I could find documentation on how to use the thing. It would be extra neat if I could plug I/O boards and graphics cards into the PET this way. :) > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From kevan at motiv.co.uk Mon Apr 28 07:10:20 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: Software database for you collector-types In-Reply-To: <199704281022.DAA10960@covina.lightside.com> Message-ID: <199704281210.NAA18040@cream.motiv.co.uk> In message <199704281022.DAA10960@covina.lightside.com>you write: > Howdy, > I just thought of something. Are any of you using a database to > catalogue what software you use/have for these old machines? I don't just explicitly use a database just for software, but I do use a database to catalogue my computer collection as a whole and this does include software. I started using SGML with my own DTD, but I soon started hitting limitations, so I now use a PostgreSQL database. I generate all the pages for my web site using this database and a Python program. (I am currently working on a web based admin system for it also.) I would be interested in hearing from other collectors who use databases, either the shelf or custom designed ones, to discuss issues involved. Hey maybe one day we could come up with some sort of generic cataloguing system / database schema for old computers and associated stuff. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Apr 28 07:56:21 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: PETs etc. In-Reply-To: <33619DF6.4F2B@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > The Osborne is a good reference, but there are more indepth books, such > as Programming the PET/CBM and PET Revealed. If only I could find such things. I suspect that if I took a trip to Toronto I'd have much better luck in all of my searches for old computer hardware, software, and books, but the chances of finding PET stuff in particular would go up a hundred fold. (What with TPUG, the Toronto PET Users Group, etc.) I have a feeling that computer ownership wasn't nearly as common in Montreal in the early days as it was in most other major North American cities, but my impressions could be wrong. Certainly people in my particular area had them, but mostly just various flavours of the Apple ][. The Apple seemed to be some sort of status symbol. > Pity about the stores, I > too have noticed that, and if the owners of said store don't have any > clue about computers they usually opt not to take any computer books > (they probably got burned with a bunch of punch-card computer text books > years back...) I only just recently learned to ignore those books myself. I have quite a few totally useless books that I picked up only because they had some nice pictures of old iron in them, or whatever. When I say useless, I mean really useless. Books used as introductory computer texts, with no specific information in them at all. I do still pick up books on, for example, assembly language programming of the PDP-11 and that kind of thing, because those books are cool. (Besides, I actually referred to one of those old books recently while studying for my computer architecture exam that I had on Saturday, because I couldn't figure out what was going on in the textbook for that class :) ) > > Interesting. I performed the piggyback RAM hack on my Amiga 1000 (back > > when it was worth real money) and that seems to still be holding up. > > No this was not an expansion job, this was a direct piggy back of > chips, no bending out pins here, like I said it was a pretty stupid > thing, that never stopped him. Uh... was he looking for data redundancy or something? ;) > > BTW: Who here thinks I'm crazy for wanting to run an "old-time BBS" off a > > VIC-20? Who here thinks it's impossible? :) > > Heck I have been and still am sysop a Commodore 64 BBS for ten years > now. If you want some BASIC BBS programs to start with (written for 64, > but I'm sure can be easily modified for VIC) I know I have some archived > here...somewhere. I intend to write the software on my own, but fast serial routines might come in handy. I want to at least get 2400bps out of the thing. I don't think that'll be a problem for the VIC-20, as it's faster at I/O than the 64. I'll probably have to put in a lot of RAM, though, to act as buffers for the slow disk drives. :) > > (music program)in BASIC, based on the Cursor #4 tape's cover program. I > > found copies of these > > things in my brother's cassette collection (I was still in elementary > > school at the time the PETs were in use). > > Hey brother, could you spare a copy for a friend in need? nudge, nugde> > I'll even supply you with a tape-to-disk program for the 64 that will > make the transfer a snap! Do you mean the music teacher's programs, or the Cursor tapes? :) I think I have copies of tapes #1 to #8, plus a couple of games from later tapes. I wish I had the originals... but these were copies made from the high school music teacher's subscription. :) Ouranos! is an awesome game, BTW. I had the PET print up the listing and I intended to port it to the Amiga, but I never got around to it. I don't think it'd be the same, though, on anything but another PET with glaring white screen. > > Too bad I couldn't find the cassette with the > > professional music software on it (I forget what it's called) that lets > > you compose the music on the staff on the screen, and that scrolls the > > music as it plays. It's really impressive for an 8K machine! > > I remember an ad about one that AB computers was selling I can't > remember it's name either. (maestro maybe?) Hummm... sounds familiar. I really have to find that once the exam shackles are off. > > ...the old 8K here with the miniature multicoloured > > keyboard (love that thing!) > > Sure is nice, I got mine (original PET) from a friend including ALOT of > the original documentation, an extra tape drive (Commodore was > butchering SANYO tape recorders to begin with), some newsletters (that > later turned into popular magazines) and tapes, a splendid addition! I > worry about it though, I'm not sure whether it has ROMs or EPROMS, > whatever they are they are the original (you know those thin white DIP > packages.) What's the serial number on that machine? I have a feeling it's a lot older than this PET. Both of my PETs have quite ordinary-looking ROMs. (The one with the mini keyboard has the 1.0 BASIC ROMs, with the '*** COMMODORE BASIC ***' message and the other one has upgrade ROMs.) > > Assuming all these chips are the same, this was a 16K RAM board. This'd > > be nice to get running. > > I would have thought it to be more. :/ Um... hold it... how are the 4116's arranged? You probably said, but of course I can't go back into my mailbox to read that while I'm replying to this one (I knew there was a reason I should my system to do this locally!). If they're 16K by 4, then that certainly WOULD be more than 8K. :) > (on possibility of it being a Visible Memory Board) > > Oooh... I wish. :) I didn't think you could even get such a thing for a > > 2001, I thought graphics boards were the domain of the 8032 and like > > systems. No idea why I'd think there'd be such limitations on one PET and > > not on another, though. :) > > Actually one of my PETs has one (I used it in high school), the graphics > could overlay the PET character screen too! Unfortunately the PET had a > mother board replacement and the jumpers are now wrong, and I'm without > docs, so it is not fully functional. Pitty I got a great Space War done > like Star Trek game for it. From an ad I still do have, the MTU Visible > Mmory Board was deveoped for the KIM-1 and then adapted for the PET, so > it's been around for a while. Same for the sound board, it mentions Hal > Chamberlin developing it for the KIM originally too (want a copy of the > ad for collection sake?) Wow, that's incredible. Not only did I not think that PETs that old could do high-res graphics in any way, but to learn that one could do so on the KIM-1! I'm flabberghasted. ;) The KIM is something I'd really like to find somewhere. I have this terrible fear, though, of coming across one in some electronic surplus shop and not recognizing it. :) There's a place I occasionally go to that sells all kinds of populated boards from who-knows-what, and something like a KIM-1 wouldn't be easy to separate from all that junk. BTW, I'd love a copy of that ad. Send it to: Doug Spence 85 Devon Road Baie d'Urfe, Que. H9X 2X3 CANADA Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Apr 28 08:21:35 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: Varieties of Apples, bootleg software, etc. In-Reply-To: <9704261852.AA21192@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Apr 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > I just swapped a bare II/E for a Bare II. Going price for a bare IIE is about > > > $20 on the Apple newsgroups. Apple II's don't seem to be valued very much in > > > the Apple II newsgroup or for sale group. > > > > Well, that's mostly because the machine isn't appreciated yet. Sure a > > trillion were made, but has anyone actually ever SEEN one? Yeah, sure, > > maybe a few of us, but I'm sure EVERYONE here can say they've seen a //e, > > a //c or even a //gs, but not the original, plain old vanilla ][. > > Actually, I hadn't seen a //c or //gs until just a year or two ago. > But I still have my vanilla II. Just as an extra data point, I've only ever seen a //gs TWICE in my life. Once was at the home of a BBSer whose GT I was attending, and then a couple of years ago I saw one in a store that has since gone out of business. For the //c, I had never actually seen one until a few months ago, and now I have one of my own. I have seen plain old vanilla ][s around, but not frequently. Most 8-bit Apples around here seem to be of the ][+ variety, followed closely by the //e. > Much more interesting to me than the original II are some of the > original Apple II software products. For example, the RAM version of > Applesoft, or some of the good old Integer Basic games like > Apple Trek and Pong, on original Apple cassette tapes. Good stuff. > Unfortunately, lots of these little items got thrown out when users > upgraded to disk drives. Actually, this is kind of funny. When my family first got a 'family computer' (i.e. one for the whole family to have access to, instead of just my older brother) we bought an Apple ][+ clone. The company was pretty seedy, and not only did it sell what was basically rip-off hardware with only a few slight modifications from the real Apple machines, you also got bound photocopies of Apple's manuals with it, plus a couple of cassettes with software on them. I still have the cassettes. They've GOT to be some sort of bad bootleg job. The cases say "APPLE SOFTWAR" on them (note the missing 'E'), and apart from the descriptions of the actual keys to press, all other writing on the cassettes and on the cases are in Chinese (or some oriental language). The cassettes I chose from their large supply were Star Blazer and Sabotage; Apple Panic and Gorgon. The same company ran a 'software evaluation club' with a huge library of Apple (and, later, PC) software, whereby one would pay $10/disk (or was it $5? I never bought any, but a friend did) for whatever software they had. I think the deal was that you were paying for 99 years rent on the disk or something. The company also sold pirate versions of popular Apple expansion boards, and kits so you could build your own. (I think they had clone Apple ][ motherboards as well.) Looking back, the place was thoroughly evil. :) Anyway, the company eventually got shut down by the RCMP, but I've still got these old tapes. I wonder if oriental bootleg software has any collectors value? ;) > > Tim. > Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From danjo at xnet.com Mon Apr 28 09:27:57 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > *** Preliminary Announcement *** > First Annual Classic Computer Collector Conference > > Why? > Next question... Wait a minute - still a good question that must be answered for any backer to take on the show. > > Where? > Livermore, California (tentative...actual venue TBD) Well, THAT cuts out about 99% of the world 8-) How about a Travelling Show? [Snip] > Some show features: > Classic Computer Spotlight - every year a > first show are Altair 8800; Apple ][; Commodore > PET; ???). Yes - give the Altair it's time in the spotlight. Next year do the PET. > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > computer industry, but is not necessarily active > anymore (ie. this precludes Bill Gates from > qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? How about Babbage??? I'd bet a dollar anyone running Winders never heard of the guy 8-) Naw - go for Gary - without him there would not have been a home computer (pulling up the zipper on my flame proof suit) [Snip] > More details as I come up with them. I would > really appreciate feedback from the patrons of > this discussion group. Any ideas, comments, > suggestions are welcome (please suggest a better > name!) > > IMPORTANT: Please keep this information within > this discussion group until the details have > been finalized and the show is a go. I don't > want to announce to the general public until I > am sure this event will take place. Well, I think it's a neat idea - but you have to do some followup work too. Release videos of the seminars and do hardcopy of the show as well as most of us aren't going to make it 8-( But, staying with the Classic idea, you have to put out BetaMax tapes and have the JPegs available in punched card and paper tape too 8-) Also, as for what machine to pick, just pick one that I have. Nothing ups the price of a system like a good news article 8-) BC From scott at saskatoon.com Mon Apr 28 10:26:30 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <199704281523.JAA24695@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > *** Preliminary Announcement *** > > First Annual Classic Computer Collector Conference Sounds like fun. > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? How about Chuck Peddle? ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca CANADA email: walde@dlcwest.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From william at ans.net Mon Apr 28 11:16:01 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704281616.AA03404@interlock.ans.net> > > Some show features: > > Classic Computer Spotlight - every year a > > first show are Altair 8800; Apple ][; Commodore > > PET; ???). > > Yes - give the Altair it's time in the spotlight. > Next year do the PET. PDP-8, PDP-11, IBM S/3xx, Nova, etc. Computers were not invented in 1974, guys. > > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > > computer industry, but is not necessarily active > > anymore (ie. this precludes Bill Gates from > > qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? > > How about Babbage??? I'd bet a dollar anyone > running Winders never heard of the guy 8-) > Naw - go for Gary - without him there would > not have been a home computer (pulling up the > zipper on my flame proof suit) Cray, Amdahl, Olson, etc. - same reason as above. William Donzelli william@ans.net From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 28 11:51:23 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <199704281616.AA03404@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > > qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > > > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? > > Cray, Amdahl, Olson, etc. - same reason as above. > Are we looking for a Guest of Honor or what? I know that Seymour Cray and Gary Kildall would find it difficult to attend on account of being sort of deceased. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Apr 28 12:01:21 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: BBSes on old hardware and SuperVIC Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204AB37AE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | ---------- | From: Doug Spence[SMTP:ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca] | Actually, I also want to build a kind of "SuperVIC" machine. I want it to | ba a luggable like my TeleVideo or Kaypro II Um, isn't that a Commodore SX-64? Kai From haleyk at okstate.edu Mon Apr 28 14:16:04 1997 From: haleyk at okstate.edu (haleyk@okstate.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: BBSes running on old computers... Message-ID: The IEEE student group that I belong to here at Oklahoma State just ran across an old z-80 based machine called a paraDynamics PRONTO. It seems to be a CP/M machine (we have a box of floppies for the twin 8" drives, and some are marked CP/M 86 and Microsoft Basic, etc.) The guy who was gonna chunk it in the trash said it had a USRobotics 1200 Baud modem and a 20 Meg HD along with 64K or RAM. He threw in a VT and soon as we can jumper around the rusty keyswitch, we hope to get some type of neat program to run on it for the heck of it, we threw around the idea of a BBS (albeit a slow one) possibly written in the BASIC that came with the machine. Has anyone used such a machine? Lets definately keep up the thread on BBSes and if we write it in a 4gl language, maybe a second list can be set up for the distribution of source code. BTW: we also got an IBM 5130.... It boots on a READY prompt, but we have NO CLUE what to do with it! We think the printer could be used as a boat anchor. hasta scott From gram at cnct.com Mon Apr 28 14:43:29 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, it was a little bit disappointing for me. _NO_ old Radio Shack equipment, no old AT&T Unix PC stuff, and I wanted to find a Sinclair or two. I saw a few machines in the Apple II and C-64 categories, but I've never been big on the 6502. So my main acquisitions were a Sun Sparc 4/360 Unix system for $400, since I have a definite nitch for that in my little network, and a Motorola 6820 which I have no idea yet as to its contents, but at five dollars ($5.00) for a 100lb+ VMEbus box, I was willing to take a flyer. It's got to run at least _something_ related to Unix or OS-9. (Oh, and I got a free PC/AT which I'll be building into a word processor for a friend of my fiance). I also bought a new P133 notebook, but that doesn't cut any ice around this mailing list of course. Guess I'll actually have to start haunting the thrift stores. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon Apr 28 17:22:56 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It would be a very good idea to make sure you have your collection nicely filled out before you do this. After the media tags 40 sec report to the end of a few news broadcasts Apple IIs really will cost $400. ;) ;) Maybe you'll be able to buy a house with an Altair. A while back I bought a spare CompuPro from a guy who collected computers as a curiosity. He was getting rid of the machine because it didn't fit in with the rest of the collection (wasn't an all-in-one micro). He didn't use the machines - just displayed them. It scares me that there are people who collect computers for looks and scares me more that they might find out that these things are "hot collectibles". :) The guy did have a really nice display though - hand-built wood shelving with various risers and built-in lights cartridge/disk/manual racks, etc. When exactly did it become cool to be a computer geek? Wasn't there a time when people posessing large numbers of computers were ridiculed in public? Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > *** Preliminary Announcement *** > > First Annual Classic Computer Collector Conference > > Why? From william at ans.net Mon Apr 28 19:01:34 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704290001.AA25412@interlock.ans.net> > He didn't use the machines - just displayed them. It > scares me that there are people who collect computers > for looks This does not scare me. Many things in my collection I never use, and do not plan on it (some I can not, for various reasons). What is important is that a collector respect the engineering and history of machines, and ignore the dollar values others place on them. Those that do place big dollar values (reasonable ones I have no problem with) are evil, and should be stopped. Dealers have ruined or crippled many hobbies due to greed (the radio/electron tube scene is a crying shame). William Donzelli william@ans.net From danjo at xnet.com Mon Apr 28 21:18:17 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: The Classic Computer Encyclopedia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well! Finally, after what 37 days, we got up to 10 entries on the Classic Computer Encyclopedia web page. We went to 7 or 8 real quick and then we stalled. We are still looking for pics on some of these. Come on you guys! You got come by and put more stuff in here 8-) It costs you nothing, it costs the list and Bill nothing. (I darn near forgot about it until today 8-) You can even *register* your hardware (now only if you HAVE one wink wink nudge nudge - you know) If Sam is going to have a Classic Computer Review (Not a bad name if I say so myself 8-) we need to get MORE machines listed on this thing. Dig into that memory (organic - not silicon) and start filling in the hardware specs you know. BC * You can get there of the Classic Computer Home Page or got direct * at http://www.xnet.com/~danjo/classic/ From BigLouS at aol.com Mon Apr 28 21:44:52 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: TI 99 & a good weekend Message-ID: <970428224451_1520810716@emout03.mail.aol.com> I managed to pick up a beige, all plastic TI 99/A this weekend and if I remember prior posts this is an uncommon version of this machine. I also saw what looked like the standard black and chrome machine except that it had no chrome at all. Did TI ever make such a machine or is it a standard machine that was mutilated by some brute? I also picked up a Commodore SX64 and a Franklin Ace 1000 (a sentimental favorite of mine) as well as a CoCo floppy drive and interface cartridge. It was a great weekend. Lou From BigLouS at aol.com Mon Apr 28 21:44:58 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) Message-ID: <970428224447_-532446117@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-26 20:44:04 EDT, you write: > I also remember seeing Apple III's and Atari 800's on sale at Weinstock's. > There was a strange time for a while in the late 70's and early 80's when > many department stores had a "computer department". This was the case > in Sacramento, was it like that in other cities? > > --pec > Yes Macy's in New York had a computer section in its electronic's department. Lou From transit at primenet.com Mon Apr 28 21:50:01 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: TI 99 & a good weekend In-Reply-To: <970428224451_1520810716@emout03.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > I managed to pick up a beige, all plastic TI 99/A this weekend and if I > remember prior posts this is an uncommon version of this machine. I also saw > what looked like the standard black and chrome machine except that it had no > chrome at all. Did TI ever make such a machine or is it a standard machine > that was mutilated by some brute? The beige TI 99/4A was a newer version that came out in 1993. Many (if not all) of those TI's were redesigned by TI so as not to run third-party cartridge software (TI wanted absolute control of that market--desperate moves by a product division bleeding red ink.) As for the TI without any chrome at all . . .did it look painted, or . . . From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon Apr 28 22:27:37 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: weekend additions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The plus/4 could run *some* very simple basic programs from 64/vic-20 land but even that was a chore if I remember correctly because of the different ways the computers "tokenized" basic. (some 64 tokens represented different plus/4 basic keywords, etc.) As fot the "black" 1541, it was known as a 1551 but was basically the same as a 1541. All it did was match the color of the plus/4. There was also a "parallel" drive for this computer (well I think there was) called an SFX-1??? something or other. Les From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon Apr 28 22:55:44 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: Funky looking mouse and other TCF stuff... Message-ID: Hi guys, just wanted to say what I got at TCF. I managed to get there at 3:45 on Sunday (15 minutes before closing on the last day of the show.) Anyway here's what I got: 2 Seagate MFM Hard Drives *FREE* 1 Sysquest tape(?) drive *FREE* the tape drive is about the size of a CD-ROM, what is it? 1 Apple IIe Users Guide *FREE* (why? I dunno, it was in the trash) 1 CBM 8032 $5 (this things got some kind of memory board that plugs into the CPU socket and a parallel interface) 1 Funky Mouse *FREE* This last thing I need help with. It looks to be about 20+ years old but I could be wrong... It is bright red, almost perfectly round, has a steel ball as the roller, 3 black switches, and says "5271" and then "DEPRAZ - MOUSE" on the bottom. It has what looks likea standard serial cable. The guy said it was for a terminal right before he threw it out. Any ideas? More importantly.... do you think I could use it on my PeeCEE? 8) Les PS what'd everyone else get at TCF? From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 29 00:08:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: Software database for you collector-types In-Reply-To: <199704281210.NAA18040@cream.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Kevan Heydon wrote: > > In message <199704281022.DAA10960@covina.lightside.com>you write: > > Howdy, > > I just thought of something. Are any of you using a database to > > catalogue what software you use/have for these old machines? > > I don't just explicitly use a database just for software, but I do use a > database to catalogue my computer collection as a whole and this does > include software. > > I started using SGML with my own DTD, but I soon started hitting > limitations, so I now use a PostgreSQL database. I generate all the > pages for my web site using this database and a Python program. (I am > currently working on a web based admin system for it also.) I use FoxPro to catalogue my game carthridges, and as soon as I get a good handle on all the different classic systems, peripherals and components I have, I will catalogue those as well. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From zmerch at northernway.net Tue Apr 29 00:29:51 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: emulator board help Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970429012950.00937790@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, hellige happened to blather: >On 28-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > >>I seem to recall that Definicon made coprocessor boards (68000 series, and >>maybe 32016 series as well) for PC's. You rean special language compilers >>on the PC that converted your high-level source into machine code for the >>68000 or whatever, and ran it on the coprocessor board > > What would be the point in doing this though, if the board didn't emulate a >specific 68000 series computer? Jeff, It's way past my bedtime, but I just had to comment on this post... Believe it or not, the board doesn't have to emulate a specific 68K computer... it *is* a specific 68K computer! The board quite possibly was a system that would just use the PeeCee's hard/floppy/parallel/serial (etc.) ports and would run OS-9/68K or another viable 68K operating system of the day (Xenix?). This in itself is not new... shortly after the IBM-PC came out there was a 68000 board for it that ran OS-9. Remember, the 68K was first, and by then already had several super-powerful (compared to MS-Dog) OS's available for the platform. I have a review of one in an old copy of Byte laying around somewhere around here. BTW, put away the asbestos... it's not a flame! I'm just tired (& cranky) and don't have a bad case of run-on fingers like usual! See ya, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 29 00:24:27 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > *** Preliminary Announcement *** > > First Annual Classic Computer Collector Conference > > > > Why? > > Next question... > > Wait a minute - still a good question that must be > answered for any backer to take on the show. I'm sure I'll be a bit more descriptive when approaching potential sponsors. > > Where? > > Livermore, California (tentative...actual venue TBD) > > Well, THAT cuts out about 99% of the world 8-) How about > a Travelling Show? Naw...Livermore is actually a great spot for a classic computer faire. Nearby Pleasanton offers a plethora of high-tech corporations to hit up for sponsorship. The Lawrence Livermore Labs is (literally) right across the street, and we are a short freeway drive to the Silicon Valley. Also, since I live in Livermore, it's offers the least hassle to host the show. I don't expect a big turnout the first year. I don't even expect a nominal turnout. I figure if I'm lucky, 50 people will show up, but these types of shows always start off small. We are on the cutting edge of a budding movement to preserve a part of the worlds digital heritage. These things take time to grow. > > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > > computer industry, but is not necessarily active > > anymore (ie. this precludes Bill Gates from > > qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? > > How about Babbage??? I'd bet a dollar anyone > running Winders never heard of the guy 8-) > Naw - go for Gary - without him there would > not have been a home computer (pulling up the > zipper on my flame proof suit) The historical promotion of Babbage is better left to the Smithsonian. > Well, I think it's a neat idea - but you have to do > some followup work too. Release videos of the seminars > and do hardcopy of the show as well as most of us aren't > going to make it 8-( I planned media coverage and will document it for those unable to attend. Of course a web page will accompany the show. > Also, as for what machine to pick, just pick one that I have. > Nothing ups the price of a system like a good news article 8-) I'm not really doing this to increase the perceived value of my collection. I'm doing it because I love classic computers. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 29 00:26:06 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <199704281523.JAA24695@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > *** Preliminary Announcement *** > > > > First Annual Classic Computer Collector Conference > > Sounds like fun. > > > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > > Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? > > How about Chuck Peddle? Who? (please explain!) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 29 00:31:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <199704281616.AA03404@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Some show features: > > > Classic Computer Spotlight - every year a > > > first show are Altair 8800; Apple ][; Commodore > > > PET; ???). > > > > Yes - give the Altair it's time in the spotlight. > > Next year do the PET. > > PDP-8, PDP-11, IBM S/3xx, Nova, etc. Computers were not invented in 1974, > guys. Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. Care to? > > > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > > > computer industry, but is not necessarily active > > > anymore (ie. this precludes Bill Gates from > > > qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > > > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? > > > > How about Babbage??? I'd bet a dollar anyone > > running Winders never heard of the guy 8-) > > Naw - go for Gary - without him there would > > not have been a home computer (pulling up the > > zipper on my flame proof suit) > > Cray, Amdahl, Olson, etc. - same reason as above. Good suggestions. But for the first year, recognizable names from the annals of computer history would go a longer way towards gaining support from sponsors and such. This is in my opinion. Anyone care to offer a challenge to this? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 29 00:37:07 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > It would be a very good idea to make sure you have your > collection nicely filled out before you do this. After > the media tags 40 sec report to the end of a few news > broadcasts Apple IIs really will cost $400. ;) ;) Media damage control will be foremost in my mind. I realize no matter what you tell a reporter, they'll always turn your words around 180 degrees and the story will end up being about how we repair broken computers or something equally banal. > > Maybe you'll be able to buy a house with an Altair. > A while back I bought a spare CompuPro from a guy who > collected computers as a curiosity. He was getting > rid of the machine because it didn't fit in with the > rest of the collection (wasn't an all-in-one micro). > He didn't use the machines - just displayed them. It > scares me that there are people who collect computers > for looks and scares me more that they might find out > that these things are "hot collectibles". :) The guy > did have a really nice display though - hand-built > wood shelving with various risers and built-in lights > cartridge/disk/manual racks, etc. These are the guys that scare me. Did he at least know how to use some of his machines? > When exactly did it become cool to be a computer geek? > Wasn't there a time when people posessing large numbers > of computers were ridiculed in public? Yeah, but then people realized a lot of computer geeks make a lot of money, and they stopped laughing at them. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue Apr 29 03:39:11 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: BBSes on old hardware and SuperVIC In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204AB37AE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > | ---------- > | From: Doug Spence[SMTP:ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca] > | Actually, I also want to build a kind of "SuperVIC" machine. > I want it to > | ba a luggable like my TeleVideo or Kaypro II > > Um, isn't that a Commodore SX-64? No, because the SX-64 is a _64_, with the C64's ports and sitting horizontally instead of vertically when in use. Don't get in the way of my vision. ;) > > Kai > Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue Apr 29 03:59:34 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > > > *** Preliminary Announcement *** > > > > > > First Annual Classic Computer Collector Conference > > > > Sounds like fun. > > > > > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > > > Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > > > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? > > > > How about Chuck Peddle? > > Who? (please explain!) Chuck Peddle was one of the guys who left Motorola and founded MOS Technology. I believe he's generally credited with the creation of the 6502 processor (along with Bill Mensch? Or was it Mensch that did most of the work?). Peddle has also been called "Father of the PET" because he designed the PET for Commodore. After Commodore, he left Commodore, he founded another company where he made 8086-based machines that ran MS-DOS but weren't, I believe, IBM-PC compatible (the Victor 9000?). I'll second his nomination, and with great trepidation add Jay Miner to the list. :) > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue Apr 29 04:23:19 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: PET to S100 bus interface Message-ID: I'd just like to make an update for all who may be interested in that potential PET to S100 bus device that I had sitting in storage. I pulled it out tonight instead of studying for exams, and it is indeed what was suspected. The "motherboard" (if that is the correct term) is a Vector Graphic Inc. S100 bus board. The RAM board that was being used for the PET, is a Vector Graphic Inc. 16K Static RAM board with a date of 1977 on it. The power supply says "KIMSI-PLUS Power Supply" on the back, 1977 from Forethought Products. This is all very wild, because I had no idea there was S100 stuff in this house. Anyway, the really interesting piece of circuitry is the PET to S100 interface board. It's the same size as the RAM board, and of course plugs into the S100 bus. At the top of the board is a 50-pin connector that plugs into a cable, that in turn plugs into the side memory expansion connector on the PET 2001. In white lettering, it says .----------. |_| | | |_|| | | |_| | || (<-- my cheezy attempt at duplicating the company .----------' logo with ASCII, it's HUH surrounded by a question .ELECTRONICS mark.) S100 MPA and etched into the board it says "COPYRIGHT 1978 BY HUH" and "S100 MPA REV A". The board isn't very heavily populated, compared to the RAM board, and most of the chips are 74LSxx chips. Anyone out there know more than I do about this thing? Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl Tue Apr 29 05:24:13 1997 From: strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl (Krzysztof Strzecha) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: Sharp MZ-800 Message-ID: <199704291024.MAA04555@kis.p.lodz.pl> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 216 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970429/d75923ed/attachment-0001.ksh From walgen at do.isst.fhg.de Tue Apr 29 05:44:30 1997 From: walgen at do.isst.fhg.de (Stefan Walgenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: Sharp MZ-800 Message-ID: <01BC549A.849A4210@odie.do.isst.fhg.de> -----Original Message----- From: Krzysztof Strzecha [SMTP:strzecha@kis.p.lodz.pl] Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 1997 12:29 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Sharp MZ-800 >Hi all ! > > I recently bought SHARP MZ-800 with no documentation, either programs etc. > Could anyone help me find any information & programs for it ? I have a MZ-800 with 2x5.25"-Disk, manual and service-docs. I also have a working boot-disk. Tell me what you need ... You can also contact: Nobuaki Ohishi at GFB00551@niftyserve.or.jp he knows everything about MZs. There are some WWW-pages at http://may.csse.muroran-it.ac.jp/~ogawa/MZMuseum/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2756 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970429/b58d1a62/attachment-0001.bin From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 29 07:20:13 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: TI 99 & a good weekend In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > The beige TI 99/4A was a newer version that came out in 1993. 1983, surely. :-) > Many (if not > all) of those TI's were redesigned by TI so as not to run third-party > cartridge software (TI wanted absolute control of that market--desperate > moves by a product division bleeding red ink.) Is that true? Eek... I have a dislike for TI (besides, they discontinued the machine I learned BASIC on just as I was getting interested), but that's just too much. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 29 07:34:06 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of > mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal > to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. > Care to? How about the advent of Unix and C? Both made for the PDP-11. And the PDP-8 was considered the first potentially personal computer (it could fit in your house, albeit it cost in the vicinity of $10k when it first came out). Ok, so the PDPs didn't influence hardware that much and they weren't home computers. But software is equally important, and I don't even care to estimate the percentage of running systems written in C. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Tue Apr 29 08:13:11 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: Non-micro classics Message-ID: <199704291313.AA25824@bs014.swec.com> In the lengthy "Re: yo" thread, Mr. Ismail mentions: [double-quote from Mr. Donzelli] > > PDP-8, PDP-11, IBM S/3xx, Nova, etc. Computers were not invented in 1974, > > guys. > > Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of > mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal > to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. > Care to? It's probably fair to say the the minicomputer actually made more of an impact in society than the micro has. It was the minicomputer which was first affordable to smaller companies and operations; the mini was also the first class of machine available to schools of modest means. You'll find that almost every microcomputer designer was, at some point in time, touched by a mini, and sometimes their designs reflect that. One of the original Apple's designers actually held the DG Nova in such high esteem it's rumoured that he kept a picture of one taped to his bedroom wall. Billy Gates did the original work on his BASIC interpreter with stolen time on a PDP-10 (though, that can't really be termed a mini). Most of the impact, though, of the mini is behind the scenes; they made manufacturing more efficient through the increased use of CNC, made scientific experimentation more prodcutive through more accurate experiment monitoring, and found their way into all manner of hospital equipment. This isn't meant to downplay the changes brought forth by the microcomputer, which with the advent of the Internet are enormous, but merely to place the minicomputer in the light of day. The changes were different from the micro, but certainly not unimportant. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From gram at cnct.com Tue Apr 29 08:20:30 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: Funky looking mouse and other TCF stuff... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > PS what'd everyone else get at TCF? > After manhandling one 150lb computer (Motorola 6820, no idea of the specs but it should run something related to Unix or OS-9, for five bucks I'll try anything once and I can always put the tape and disk drives into the Sun) into the car and into the cellar Saturday, then the same more or less with the Sun 4/360 (similar weight PLUS a 20inch monitor, $400) on Sunday, I was just too tired to go dumpster diving this year. Plus, there wasn't a lot of room left in the little Mitsubishi. (I _thought_ Lisa and I were renting a U-Haul, but our local place was out of anything in a reasonable size). -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From gram at cnct.com Tue Apr 29 08:30:03 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of > mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal > to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. > Care to? Well, the DECs had a serious impact on history for those of us whose normal command prompt is a simple dollar sign. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From scott at saskatoon.com Tue Apr 29 09:08:15 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <199704291405.IAA28063@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > > How about Chuck Peddle? > > Who? (please explain!) Chuck Peddle, while working at Motorola, was on the design team for the 6800. He and a number of other engineers on the team had a number of enhancements that they wanted to make to the chip, but the higher-ups wouldn't let them. They left Motorola to form MOS Technology, and developed the 6502 line of CPUS. When Commodore decided to get into the Personal Computer market, they bought MOS. One theory is that they primarily wanted Peddle. Chuck went on to design the early Commodore machines. (I'm not sure how involved he was in the Kim-1, but he almost singlehandedly designed the first PETs.) This is mostly off the top of my head. If I made any glaring errors (or minor ones, for that matter), please let me know. (If you do an Alta-vista search for +commodore +"chuck peddle" you will get around 40 pages with info on him.) > Sam ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca CANADA email: walde@dlcwest.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From danjo at xnet.com Tue Apr 29 09:10:21 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > > On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: [Snip] > > > Where? > > > Livermore, California (tentative...actual venue TBD) > > > > Well, THAT cuts out about 99% of the world 8-) How about > > a Travelling Show? > > Naw...Livermore is actually a great spot for a classic computer faire. > Nearby Pleasanton offers a plethora of high-tech corporations to hit up > for sponsorship. The Lawrence Livermore Labs is (literally) right across > the street, and we are a short freeway drive to the Silicon Valley. > Also, since I live in Livermore, it's offers the least hassle to host the > show. I don't expect a big turnout the first year. I don't even expect > a nominal turnout. I figure if I'm lucky, 50 people will show up, but > these types of shows always start off small. We are on the cutting edge > of a budding movement to preserve a part of the worlds digital heritage. > These things take time to grow. Ya but I'd be there 8-) (Now let's see - how do I move my vacation time around again) Aside:[I wonder if you can get an educational grant for the Travelling idea tho - you know schools and stuff so the kids can see what it all started from. You could start small on that too.] > > > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > > > computer industry, but is not necessarily active > > > anymore (ie. this precludes Bill Gates from > > > qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > > > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? > > How about Babbage??? I'd bet a dollar anyone > > running Winders never heard of the guy 8-) > > Naw - go for Gary - without him there would > > not have been a home computer (pulling up the > > zipper on my flame proof suit) > The historical promotion of Babbage is better left to the Smithsonian. Well, from a *media* standpoint, there is more info already available to newspaper idiots^H^H^H^H^H^Hreporters on Babbage (plus the Enquirer can take the Ada twist 8-) so they don't get it too wrong 8-) > > Well, I think it's a neat idea - but you have to do > > some followup work too. Release videos of the seminars > > and do hardcopy of the show as well as most of us aren't > > going to make it 8-( > > I planned media coverage and will document it for those unable to > attend. Of course a web page will accompany the show. Well, what I really want to see is all the info on restoring cases, kwyboards(!), and paper docs. > > Also, as for what machine to pick, just pick one that I have. > > Nothing ups the price of a system like a good news article 8-) > > I'm not really doing this to increase the perceived value of my > collection. I'm doing it because I love classic computers. *I* didn't think so Sam, but YOU KNOW what will happen 8-( Another problem with the idea is after the first one - what's left? Maybe it would be better to - more or less - specialize. Cover one machine exclusively. Cover everybody that worked on it - the history behind the processor, the design, try to talk to the people involved why they did one thing or the other. Get this documented before they are all gone 8-( Just ike some of the books about DEC and Apple - except you get to TALK to these people (I see a room with huge coffee pots and 30 gallon butt cans, dimly lit, slight murmuring as we all ask deep *meaning of life* questions like "Why did the KIM-1 use 6530 RIOTs instead of 6522 and a seperate ROM?" 8-) (That one always bugged me!) And then follow that with a bright glitsy show on what you use NOW that has all the same stuff in it! Boy am I starting to ramble! BC From danjo at xnet.com Tue Apr 29 09:29:59 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Some show features: > > > > Classic Computer Spotlight - every year a > > > > first show are Altair 8800; Apple ][; Commodore > > > > PET; ???). > > > > > > Yes - give the Altair it's time in the spotlight. > > > Next year do the PET. > > > > PDP-8, PDP-11, IBM S/3xx, Nova, etc. Computers were not invented in 1974, > > guys. Well, I also have a Abacus 8-) NOW THAT IS AN OLD HARDWARE DESIGN! > Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of > mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal > to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. > Care to? Well, I think the point the mini's made was fundamental to the micros history. Coming from the 60's (oops) I remember the ?joy? of realizing that you didn't need a powerplant and a huge room of boxes with spinning tape drives chilled to just above freezing to have a computer 8-) That is what the minis did, for me and businesses. There were technological advances sure, but if you wheren't IN the know, very few people know the processor was that desk over there and not all that *other* stuff. Once seeing a PDP-8, it kind of hit home that, Yes you could pack all the power of a room full of stuff into one half hieght 19" rack with a mini and a tape reader with one ASR-33. It changed the way people *viewed* the computer. > > > > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > > > > computer industry, but is not necessarily active > > > > anymore (ie. this precludes Bill Gates from > > > > qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > > > > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? > > > > > > How about Babbage??? I'd bet a dollar anyone > > > running Winders never heard of the guy 8-) > > > Naw - go for Gary - without him there would > > > not have been a home computer (pulling up the > > > zipper on my flame proof suit) > > > > Cray, Amdahl, Olson, etc. - same reason as above. > > Good suggestions. But for the first year, recognizable names from the > annals of computer history would go a longer way towards gaining support > from sponsors and such. This is in my opinion. Anyone care to offer a > challenge to this? I don't know Sam, (as I stated before 8-) maybe if you specialized you could get support from those involved. I mean Cray is loosing market share but might fork over some bucks/equipment/mock-ups if you said - "Look, we want to feature Cray as founding father who help make desktop computers a reality. Without his foresight, we could not have gotten where we are today." Gee, advertizing! And then find out who he had a running battle with and ask them too! Explain how the *battle* improved the world for everyone. Nobody was right - nobody was wrong. It's just how things went. BC From BigLouS at aol.com Tue Apr 29 09:54:48 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: TI 99 & a good weekend Message-ID: <970429105245_1288664625@emout13.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-29 00:50:04 EDT, Charles P. Hobbs writes: << As for the TI without any chrome at all . . .did it look painted, or . . . >> I didn't take a really close look but it didn't appear to be painted. It also seemed to have a circle on the case above the keyboard. Lou From george.lin at documentum.com Tue Apr 29 09:54:46 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429075446.00a87100@lion.documentum.com> At 10:24 PM 4/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >Naw...Livermore is actually a great spot for a classic computer faire. >Nearby Pleasanton offers a plethora of high-tech corporations to hit up >for sponsorship. The Lawrence Livermore Labs is (literally) right across >the street, and we are a short freeway drive to the Silicon Valley. >Also, since I live in Livermore, it's offers the least hassle to host the >show. I don't expect a big turnout the first year. I don't even expect >a nominal turnout. I figure if I'm lucky, 50 people will show up, but >these types of shows always start off small. We are on the cutting edge I am one of those 50 people. I am in Pleasanton. 8-) George -- George Lin "Accelerating your business through Network Architect, MIS enterprise document managment." Documentum, Inc. (Nasdaq: DCTM) http://www.documentum.com Email Fax mailto:remote-printer.George_Lin@4.3.8.6.3.6.4.0.1.5.1.tpc.int My PGP Public Key for encryption is at http://george.home.ml.org/pgp.htm From idavis at comland.com Tue Apr 29 10:06:48 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: Atari prob, etc. Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970429150648.0090a4d8@mail.comland.com > At 09:07 PM 4/27/97 -0800, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: >The 1200XL is a different matter, Powered up, got the logo, went to >diagnostics, sound O.K., Memory looks good, but keyboard... I can get >the top row (reset,start,select,option, & help) working but the other >keys seem dead. The strange thing is I gboot up BASIC and I press a >letter and the computer responds with it's 'click' sound but no key >(maybe something in the decoding logic???) Any Atarians got a clue? > >Since I only have the one power supply I had to power up the 1050 as a >standalone the head did a quick back-fourth motion and the activity >light stopped so that seems to be a promising sign. Second request: >When I get a second supply I gonna kinda need a disk to run on this >thing, can anyone help set me up with some essential disks (DOS, >utilities, maybe some common games, etc.) I can trade for some fine >Commodore Programs and such. (=)) > I can't really tell you about the 1200XL, but it might have a connector loose or not making a good connection inside. You might take it apart and reseat the keyboard connector or ribbon whichever it may be. As for power supplies, you should be able to get an equivalent power supply at radio shack. Just bring the atari one in, and they should be able to match it. I can ship off a couple of disks to you with DOS, and a few games. I will check out your web page for your address, but if it's not there, just let me know where to send the disks. There is a guy here in Austin, that has a lot of atari software for sale at really great prices. His name is Rick Detlefsen and his email address is 74766.1561@CompuServe.COM I have bought some software and an 850 interface from him, and his prices are great. I think I paid $0.60 for a Robotron cart from him, and it even had the box and manual. I will put together a few disks with some stuff on it, and send them to you. Hope this helps. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From william at ans.net Tue Apr 29 10:09:50 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704291509.AA22117@interlock.ans.net> > How about the advent of Unix and C? Both made for the PDP-11. And the > PDP-8 was considered the first potentially personal computer (it could fit > in your house, albeit it cost in the vicinity of $10k when it first came > out). > > Ok, so the PDPs didn't influence hardware that much and they weren't home > computers. The 68000 series was based on the PDP-11 design. Not much influence? William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Tue Apr 29 10:13:29 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704291513.AA22486@interlock.ans.net> > > Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of > > mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal > > to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. > > Care to? I think the IBM 360s made a huge difference. All of a sudden, everyone's paychecks, bank statements, bills, etc. were printed by a computer. William Donzelli william@ans.net From transit at primenet.com Tue Apr 29 11:05:23 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: TI 99 & a good weekend In-Reply-To: <970429105245_1288664625@emout13.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 BigLouS@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-04-29 00:50:04 EDT, Charles P. Hobbs writes: > > << As for the TI without any chrome at all . . .did it look painted, or . . . > >> > > I didn't take a really close look but it didn't appear to be painted. It also > seemed to have a circle on the case above the keyboard. My guess is that someone peeled off the chrome veneer from the plastic substrate . . . From zmerch at northernway.net Tue Apr 29 15:01:42 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:18 2005 Subject: Atari prob, etc. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970429150648.0090a4d8@mail.comland.com > Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429160142.009482b0@208.128.145.1> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Isaac Davis said: >As for power >supplies, you should be able to get an equivalent power supply at radio >shack. Just bring the atari one in, and they should be able to match it. Nope. Sorry about this, but I used to work for RS and I have an Atari 800... (sorry... no spare power supplies) and I can honestly say that I doubt you will find any power supply from there that puts out AC. The only machine that I can remember (and I remember most) from RS that took an AC wart was the Tandy MC-10 (micro color computer), which took 8VAC at 1A IIRC. You can't even get this PS from RS anymore, and it was for their own computer! Sadly, if it ain't DC, RS won't have one... One thing I would be willing to do (when I have time, which won't be for at least a month) is to open one of my PS's for an exact schematic & parts list to build your own. I do know all the parts to build an AC PS are available at the Shack... not sure of cost, of course. Lemme know if you want me to do this, and remind me in a couple of months that I volunteered to perform said surgery. >I can ship off a couple of disks to you with DOS, and a few games. I will >check out your web page for your address, but if it's not there, just let me >know where to send the disks. On this note... I do know that there is a *lot* of software on the Web for 8-bits, but does anyone know where I can find a utility to read/write SSSD Atari disks on my IBM? I do know that the extended density stuff is just not possible on PeeCee's, but SD should be possible. Hope this helps, and TIA as well! "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From idavis at comland.com Tue Apr 29 15:47:24 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: Atari prob, etc. Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970429204724.008eb34c@mail.comland.com > At 04:01 PM 4/29/97 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: >Nope. Sorry about this, but I used to work for RS and I have an Atari >800... (sorry... no spare power supplies) and I can honestly say that I >doubt you will find any power supply from there that puts out AC. The only >machine that I can remember (and I remember most) from RS that took an AC >wart was the Tandy MC-10 (micro color computer), which took 8VAC at 1A >IIRC. You can't even get this PS from RS anymore, and it was for their own >computer! > >Sadly, if it ain't DC, RS won't have one... > >One thing I would be willing to do (when I have time, which won't be for at >least a month) is to open one of my PS's for an exact schematic & parts >list to build your own. I do know all the parts to build an AC PS are >available at the Shack... not sure of cost, of course. > >Lemme know if you want me to do this, and remind me in a couple of months >that I volunteered to perform said surgery. > That's a shocker for me. I think I need to learn a little more about electronics, and if you tear yours apart, I would love to have a copy of the schematics. It might be a good learners project for me, and useful as well. >On this note... I do know that there is a *lot* of software on the Web for >8-bits, but does anyone know where I can find a utility to read/write SSSD >Atari disks on my IBM? I do know that the extended density stuff is just >not possible on PeeCee's, but SD should be possible. At http://www.emulators.com the now have the schematics for their xformer cable on the web site, which should work with their xformer software, there is also a product called ape which is at http://www.nacs.net/~classics which allows you to connect your atari to a pc. They also have schematics and a program to run an atari disk with a pc, to copy and create disks. I have read a lot of flap about incompatibilities writing disks back and forth between the two types of drives. Of course, you could get a black box or an atr8000 and I think that would allow you to use a pc floppy with your atari. I have actually never tried any of these, I just use a null modem cable and transfer the software back and forth. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From jeffh at eleventh.com Mon Apr 28 21:31:46 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 29-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >I'll second his nomination, and with great trepidation add Jay Miner to >the list. :) I think Jay Miner is definately worthy of inclusion since he did much of the design of the Atari 8bit machines, such as the 400/800, and he is generally considered the father of the Amiga line. Out of curiosity, is anyone willing to nominate Jack Tremiel? Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Apr 29 17:01:16 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: ethernet and apple2GS Message-ID: <199704292201.QAA14709@calico.litterbox.com> As those of you who follow the comp.sys.apple2 groups know, there never was an ethernet board for the apple2, and the one that apple designed for the 2gs never went into large scale production. This annoys me, since the gs is certainly capable of running network applications - it comes from the factory with appletalk/localtalk. So I've been thinking about this problem for a while. Before I go into my "solution", I should mention that I'm in no way an electronic engineer, and the odds of my even attempting to do this on my own, let alone succeeding, aren't very good. But it seemed like an idea at least worth sharing, on the grounds that maybe one of you who IS an engineer could make some bucks inventing this thing. My idea is this: build an ethernet board for the apple2 series with the following parameters: 1. it looks to the system exactly like a localtalk board, only faster. 2. it has enough brains to analyze outgoing frames to see if, in fact, what is being sent is ip encapsulated in appletalk. If so, de-encapsulate it and transmit it as straight IP. - this is a software issue, really, but it needs to happen in the firmware of the ethernet board, so... 3. It has enough brains to analyze incoming frames and determine if in fact the frame is an IP frame. If so, encapsulate it in appletalk and feed it to the system. 4. It has a way of turning all this brainpower off and being driven with a normal ethernet driver running on the host system. 5. It can do any translation between appletalk and ethertalk so the machine can talk to it's Macintosh kin. My reasoning for all the shenanigans with appletalk and ip is this: no standard mechanism exists for talking to an ethernet board in an apple2. However, the GS comes with atalk drivers in rom, and you can get them for earlier apples, and a lot of software does do tcp-ip over appletalk, assuming it's going to be talking to an appletalk/IP router downstream. Caviets: I haven't looked at the appletalk/ethertalk/localtalk protocol to make sure what I'm suggesting is sane. Same goes for tcp-ip over appletalk. There's a standard for this stuff, but I haven't looked it up yet. Anyway, that's my idea. Feedback will be greatly appreciated. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Apr 29 17:15:18 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: ethernet and apple2GS In-Reply-To: <199704292201.QAA14709@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Jim wrote: > My idea is this: build an ethernet board for the apple2 series with the > following parameters: 1. it looks to the system exactly like a localtalk > board, only faster. 2. it has enough brains to analyze outgoing frames to > see if, in fact, what is being sent is ip encapsulated in appletalk. If so, > de-encapsulate it and transmit it as straight IP. - this is a software issue, > really, but it needs to happen in the firmware of the ethernet board, so... > 3. It has enough brains to analyze incoming frames and determine if in > fact the frame is an IP frame. If so, encapsulate it in appletalk and > feed it to the system. It seems to me that it would be a lot easier to write a driver for an existing parallel port ethernet adapter. I looked into this some time back and decided I'm just not a good enough programmer ;). But, if you're really into this it would eliminate any hardware development. There are other possible devices that could be modified too - like the Asante SCSI -> ethernet adapter. I picked up one of these to see if it would be any easier to work with but was never able to find sufficient documentation to answer my questions. For now, I appletalk to my mac and ethernet to my other machines. It gets the job done but just doesn't satisfy the dogged computer geek in you. While I'm here - does anybody want a Tandy OEM'd dual bernoulli box? I just dug it out of the back of my storage space and can't remember just why I have it. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Apr 29 17:23:11 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: ethernet and apple2GS In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at Apr 29, 97 03:15:18 pm Message-ID: <199704292223.QAA14822@calico.litterbox.com> Absolutely true, it would be eiaser to go with a parallel port - ethernet adapter or a scsi-ethernet adapter. Except that there are no bidrectional parallel port cards for apple2, and at least the ramfast scsi card won't deal with ethernet adapters correctly. And again, none of the software would support it unless you convince the system it's appletalk. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Apr 29 17:26:56 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: ethernet and apple2GS In-Reply-To: <199704292223.QAA14822@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim" at Apr 29, 97 04:23:11 pm Message-ID: <199704292226.QAA14850@calico.litterbox.com> On review, my last message in response to why not use a parallel or scsi ethernet adapter seems a bit terse. No offence was intended, and I appreciate any feedback I get. Thanks. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Apr 29 17:29:59 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: ethernet and apple2GS In-Reply-To: <199704292226.QAA14850@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim" at Apr 29, 97 04:26:56 pm Message-ID: <199704292229.QAA14871@calico.litterbox.com> And by the way, if anyone has one of these exceedingly rare prototype apple2GS ethernet boards that they'd be willing to sell, I'm interested. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Apr 29 17:34:54 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: ethernet and apple2GS In-Reply-To: <199704292223.QAA14822@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: > Absolutely true, it would be eiaser to go with a parallel port - ethernet > adapter or a scsi-ethernet adapter. Except that there are no bidrectional > parallel port cards for apple2, and at least the ramfast scsi card won't > deal with ethernet adapters correctly. And again, none of the software > would support it unless you convince the system it's appletalk. Already been down that route I see ;). My Linksys adapter claims to work in Unidirectional mode... Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From KFergason at aol.com Tue Apr 29 18:32:07 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <970429193201_-467416177@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-29 11:22:24 EDT, you write: << Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. Care to? >> someone can correct me if necessary, but weren't the first PDP's pretty "important" in that respect? Suddenly, universities could have their own systems. or maybe I am dreaming, mixing stories from various books. Kelly From groberts at mitre.org Tue Apr 29 19:52:35 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: PET to S100 bus interface In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970429205235.007c98d0@postman> fyi, on p. 272 of November '79 Byte: a company called AB Computers offered a device called "BETSI", described as a "PET to S-100 Interface & Motherboard". cost was $119. While i'm on that page, the PET was $795 for the entry level system (8K, small keybd, cassette) and on the high end: $1,295 for 32K system with "business" keyboard. A 2040 dual diskette drive (343,000 bytes total) would set you back another $1,295. At 05:23 AM 4/29/97 -0400, you wrote: > >I'd just like to make an update for all who may be interested in that >potential PET to S100 bus device that I had sitting in storage. > >I pulled it out tonight instead of studying for exams, and it is indeed >what was suspected. > >The "motherboard" (if that is the correct term) is a Vector Graphic Inc. >S100 bus board. The RAM board that was being used for the PET, is a >Vector Graphic Inc. 16K Static RAM board with a date of 1977 on it. The >power supply says "KIMSI-PLUS Power Supply" on the back, 1977 from >Forethought Products. > >This is all very wild, because I had no idea there was S100 stuff in this >house. > >Anyway, the really interesting piece of circuitry is the PET to S100 >interface board. It's the same size as the RAM board, and of course plugs >into the S100 bus. At the top of the board is a 50-pin connector that >plugs into a cable, that in turn plugs into the side memory expansion >connector on the PET 2001. > >In white lettering, it says >.----------. >|_| | | |_|| >| | |_| | || (<-- my cheezy attempt at duplicating the company >.----------' logo with ASCII, it's HUH surrounded by a question >.ELECTRONICS mark.) > > S100 MPA > >and etched into the board it says "COPYRIGHT 1978 BY HUH" and "S100 MPA >REV A". > >The board isn't very heavily populated, compared to the RAM board, and >most of the chips are 74LSxx chips. > >Anyone out there know more than I do about this thing? > > >Doug Spence >ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca > > > From mhop at snip.net Tue Apr 29 22:43:58 1997 From: mhop at snip.net (mhop) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: Questions about this mailling list Message-ID: <19970430034533687.AAB210@computer-name> How do I change back to the way I had it before where the mail would arrive separately rather than 40 in one message? Are they really the same messages? When I subscribed to the weekly thing, it seemed that the message thread had completely changed. mhop@snip.net From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 29 23:53:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of > > mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal > > to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. > > Care to? > > How about the advent of Unix and C? Both made for the PDP-11. And the > PDP-8 was considered the first potentially personal computer (it could fit > in your house, albeit it cost in the vicinity of $10k when it first came > out). > > Ok, so the PDPs didn't influence hardware that much and they weren't home > computers. But software is equally important, and I don't even care to > estimate the percentage of running systems written in C. Unix and C are better left as show topics at Software Development Expo. The PDP systems are great machines but I'd rather stick with the micro-computer craze as the focus for the first show. This is not to say that the classic mini's will not be highlighted. I plan on definitely having them as part of the exhibit...maybe even a mainframe if I can get a donor. Perhaps at the 2nd show we will focus on the 50s-60s era mini's and mainframes. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Apr 29 23:55:51 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: Non-micro classics In-Reply-To: <199704291313.AA25824@bs014.swec.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > It's probably fair to say the the minicomputer actually made more > of an impact in society than the micro has. It was the minicomputer > which was first affordable to smaller companies and operations; the > mini was also the first class of machine available to schools of > modest means. You'll find that almost every microcomputer designer > was, at some point in time, touched by a mini, and sometimes their > designs reflect that. <...> Good points. I think I want the emphasis of the first show to be on the late 70's micro-computer boom. Mini's and mainframes will be a sub-focus. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Apr 30 00:06:08 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > > Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of > > mention, but did they really make the impact and have significance equal > > to the Altair and the others? I'm sure you could argue to that effect. > > Care to? > > Well, I think the point the mini's made was fundamental to the micros > history. Coming from the 60's (oops) I remember the ?joy? of realizing > that you didn't need a powerplant and a huge room of boxes with spinning > tape drives chilled to just above freezing to have a computer 8-) > That is what the minis did, for me and businesses. There were > technological advances sure, but if you wheren't IN the know, very few > people know the processor was that desk over there and not all that > *other* stuff. Once seeing a PDP-8, it kind of hit home that, Yes you > could pack all the power of a room full of stuff into one half hieght > 19" rack with a mini and a tape reader with one ASR-33. It changed the > way people *viewed* the computer. Well, even though I am proposing a micro as the Computer of the Show, it does not mean that this is to the exclusion of all other systems. Definitely the PDP will be featured (if we can get one at the show) and will enjoy a billing equal to the other systems. Your next point is compelling though... > > Good suggestions. But for the first year, recognizable names from the > > annals of computer history would go a longer way towards gaining support > > from sponsors and such. This is in my opinion. Anyone care to offer a > > challenge to this? > > I don't know Sam, (as I stated before 8-) maybe if you specialized you > could get support from those involved. I mean Cray is loosing market > share but might fork over some bucks/equipment/mock-ups if you said - > "Look, we want to feature Cray as founding father who help make desktop > computers a reality. Without his foresight, we could not have gotten > where we are today." Gee, advertizing! And then find out who he had a > running battle with and ask them too! Explain how the *battle* improved > the world for everyone. Nobody was right - nobody was wrong. It's just > how things went. This would be attractive to Cray. But isn't Cray gone now? Anyhow, if we tell the plight of one manufacturer, other manufacturer's will get a black eye that we didn't choose THEIR system and will hold a grudge against the show for ever more. I don't think you can win unless you highlight ALL the systems and have ample history on ALL the players in the computer industry. So this is what I plan on doing, except I still want to showcase a micro as the show highlight because: 1) I grew up on them and 2) they brought computers into the hands of the masses. Mini's made them accessible to businesses, etc. But micro's made computing power accessible to just about anyone. They would be the systems that people would most readily identify with. I think as long as we have a mix of all the different platforms, it will be a show for all. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Apr 30 00:13:13 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: ethernet and apple2GS In-Reply-To: <199704292201.QAA14709@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Jim wrote: > My idea is this: build an ethernet board for the apple2 series with the > following parameters: 1. it looks to the system exactly like a localtalk > board, only faster. 2. it has enough brains to analyze outgoing frames to > see if, in fact, what is being sent is ip encapsulated in appletalk. If so, > de-encapsulate it and transmit it as straight IP. - this is a software issue, > really, but it needs to happen in the firmware of the ethernet board, so... > 3. It has enough brains to analyze incoming frames and determine if in > fact the frame is an IP frame. If so, encapsulate it in appletalk and > feed it to the system. > 4. It has a way of turning all this brainpower off and being driven with a > normal ethernet driver running on the host system. > 5. It can do any translation between appletalk and ethertalk so the machine > can talk to it's Macintosh kin. This would be a cool idea. And actually, there is this dude who posts on the usenet named Andre Fachat who wrote a simple TCP/IP implementation for the 6502. Perhaps you could talk to him about fleshing it out and perhaps designing a hardware card to host it? Look in comp.apple.programmer to find him. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed Apr 30 00:44:41 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: Replies to stuff... References: <199704290702.AAA01154@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3366DC4A.4141@goldrush.com> From: hellige To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Atari prob, etc. > One thing about Atari 8bit stuff is a lot of it tended to use it's own > power rating on the power supply, and not really interchangeable > between most of it, it seems. I'll check the ratings on the 1200 xl in the FAQ maybe that was the problem... :/ --------- From: Sam Ismail Subject: yo >First Annual Classic Computer Collector Conference >Why? BECAUSE! Does any hacker need a reason (well maybe the tried and true, "Because they say it's impossible.") > Next question... > Where? > Livermore, California (tentative...actual venue TBD) I could handle that. Hey that's were alot of the companies started. > When? > Late Summer 1997 (possibly August) > Who? > Organizer: Sam Ismail > Sponsors: Pending (targeted sponsors will be > Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories and > other computer manufacturers in the local area > and Silicon Valley). Apple could use a little more good P.R... (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) > What? > The Classic Computer Collector Convention is > slated to be the premier computer faire to > attend to meet with fellow classic computer > collector geeks, buy/sell/trade classic computer > stuff, exchange classic computer software and > classic computer hints and tips, attend > workshops on classic computer preservation and > restoration, and of course see classic > computers. > Some show features: > Classic Computer Spotlight - every year a > legendary system is chosen to be heralded as the > classic computer of the year (nominees for the > first show are Altair 8800; Apple ][; Commodore > PET; ???). Hey how about a demo contest too? Have you ever seen those european groups' parties, (search the web there are some good pages about them) looks pretty cool to me. Kinda like a hackerfest. > Classic Computer Pioneer - every year an > individual from the annals of computer lore will > be chosen as the Classic Computer Pioneer of the > year. This would be someone who had a lasting > legacy or made a historical impact on the > computer industry, but is not necessarily active > anymore (ie. this precludes Bill Gates from > qualifying). Nominees: Gary Kildall, creator of > CP/M; Steve Wozniak; ??? As I said Apple could use the P.R. (maybe get the Steves...) Unfortunately Gary Kildall (creator of CP/M) died a couple years back (but would be a kick to honor him), Chuck Peddle was the creator of the 6502 microprocessor and Commodore PET among other things. > Classic Computer Museum - A classic museum will > be set-up on-site to allow interested public to > see what classic computers are all about. > Attendees will be encouraged to submit their > favorite classics for display during the show. Better have tight security there if we bring our 'babies' to sow off. > The success of the show will depend on > attendance. Admission will be enough to cover > the costs of running the show (including lease > of the venue, advertising, etc). Although there > won't be much of a vending atmosphere (unless > people want to haul their stuff from all over > the country) space will be sold for such > purposes. That sounds reasonable. > More details as I come up with them. I would > really appreciate feedback from the patrons of > this discussion group. Any ideas, comments, > suggestions are welcome (please suggest a better > name!) The only computer show I attended was the World of Commodore in San Francisco in 1987, since then most of the shows have been feeding frenzies for developers and not at all interested in the computer classics. I would attend and I'm sure I could get others in the area interested. ---------- From: Doug Spence Subject: Re: Old Computer Books (was Re: Pets & Silly Game) > ...But the only PET books this library has are things like > collections of type-in programs for the PET, and books on using the PET in > an educational environment. Nothing good and technical. The technical ones are some of the hardest to locate, some of mine came from a Commodore Group weeding out their library, I bought them via mail. The most PET books I've come across are old college and school textbooks (anyone see "Hands-On BASIC with the Commodore PET?" yuk.) --- Subject: BBSes on old hardware and SuperVIC > (re: VIC-20) I'd put at least 32K in it, with a memory > protection toggle on the RAM so that it could run images of cartridges > from disk. There is a file I think on funet.fi's FTP that describes and internal mod that does just that. :) --- Subject: PETs etc. > If only I could find such things. I suspect that if I took a trip to > Toronto I'd have much better luck in all of my searches for old computer > hardware, software, and books, but the chances of finding PET stuff in > particular would go up a hundred fold. (What with TPUG, the Toronto PET > Users Group, etc.) True, that was a very good Commodore region. > I have a feeling that computer ownership wasn't nearly as common in > Montreal in the early days as it was in most other major North American > cities... I would believe that, I think it depnds on what stores, groups were in the area as well as what computers were first brought in. (Keeping up with the Jones') > (re-piggybacking chips) > Uh... was he looking for data redundancy or something? ;) No he had some dead RAMS and got tired of swapping chips, and figured if he piggybacked two he would at least get one good one out of it. :/ > I intend to write the software on my own, but fast serial routines might > come in handy. I want to at least get 2400bps out of the thing. Most of the BASIC boards I have is up to 1200 baud, I know for 2400 you probably have to tweak the timing registers, cause the computer does not provide decent numbers. > I don't think that'll be a problem for the VIC-20, as it's faster at I/O than the > 64. I'll probably have to put in a lot of RAM, though, to act as buffers > for the slow disk drives. :) There have been a bunch of articles for adding 256k to 1 meg internally to the 64 and bank-switching, not sure if that's possible on the VIC though, they may be adaptable. > Do you mean the music teacher's programs, or the Cursor tapes? :) YES! YES! > I think I have copies of tapes #1 to #8, plus a couple of games from later tapes. > I wish I had the originals... but these were copies made from the high > school music teacher's subscription. :) Mine are also from High School and I can say I have programs from 13 to into the 20s I think. No originals here either *sniff* > Ouranos! is an awesome game, BTW. I had the PET print up the listing and I > intended to port it to the Amiga, but I never got around to it. I don't > think it'd be the same, though, on anything but another PET with glaring > white screen. Weather War II for the Commodore-64 is a re-write of Ouranos! nifty little character graphic castles, SID sound, sprites were used to add some foliage (just for looks) > What's the serial number on that machine? Gotta go to storage and read it... Not in the 'original documentation' envelope. > I have a feeling it's a lot older than this PET. Both of my PETs have quite > ordinary-looking ROMs. > (The one with the mini keyboard has the 1.0 BASIC ROMs, with the '*** > COMMODORE BASIC ***' message and the other one has upgrade ROMs.) My 'calculator keyboard' PET has 1.0 too. I have the schematics and diagnostics for it too... Has been modified with a reset switch has ability to use a skyles add-on keyboard (you have to load and run a program first), and of course, expandamem. > Um... hold it... how are the 4116's arranged? You probably said, but of > course I can't go back into my mailbox to read that while I'm replying to > this one (I knew there was a reason I should my system to do this > locally!). If they're 16K by 4, then that certainly WOULD be more than > 8K. :) I think those are only 8kx1. I did look at my expandamem board and the chips with the plates on them had (c)Mostek written. > (RE: Visible Memory Board deveoped for KIM-1 first.) > Wow, that's incredible. Not only did I not think that PETs that old could > do high-res graphics in any way, but to learn that one could do so on the > KIM-1! I'm flabberghasted. ;) > The KIM is something I'd really like to find somewhere. So would I. > I have this terrible fear, though, of coming across one in some electronic surplus > shop and not recognizing it. :) I had nightmares about coming across an incredible Commodore stash in some store and not having any money. *gasp!* > (re: MTU visible memory ad) > BTW, I'd love a copy of that ad. Send it to: > Doug Spence > 85 Devon Road > Baie d'Urfe, Que. > H9X 2X3 > CANADA Heck I'll toss in some disks full of other goodies too. But don't hold your breath I tend to froget doing things (like mailing stuff) for a spell. ---------- From: "Mr. Self Destruct" Subject: Re: weekend additions > The plus/4 could run *some* very simple basic programs from 64/vic-20 land > but even that was a chore if I remember correctly because of the different > ways the computers "tokenized" basic. I think the main difference was between the 128 and the Plus/4s extended BASIC, but was compatible with the 64. > There was also a "parallel" drive for this > computer (well I think there was) called an SFX-1??? something or other. The parallel one was the 1551; the SFX 1001 was a 1 meg floppy drive the the PET using an IEEE-488 interface (esentally an 8250 with only one disk drive.) ---------- From: "Mr. Self Destruct" Subject: Funky looking mouse and other TCF stuff... >1 CBM 8032 $5 > (this things got some kind of memory board that plugs into the CPU > socket and a parallel interface) Wait a minute here, are you sure it's not a RS-232 interface? It could be an 8032 upgraded to a SuperPET. If it is a SuperPET there would be a 6809 processor as well as the 6502 in there and you have 96k of RAM accessible (via bank switching). Keyboard my have some odd characters on it too (to support the languages it could run such as APL, Fortran, COBOL, etc.) Of course to run the languages you would need the disks and a drive. (I don't have them) Otherwise the daughterboard could be memory to bring it up to 96k (via bank switching) or as I mentioned a visible memory board - the indication for it is that the monitor will plug into the daughter board and then the daughterboard plugs into the motherboard's video output connector. - :) BTW REALLY GOOD PRICE! Larry Anderson P.S. I think I'm gonna start writing a FAQ about the Commodore PET. Will let you guys now when I get it on-line. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 29 20:12:52 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <199704291509.AA22117@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > Ok, so the PDPs didn't influence hardware that much and they weren't home > > computers. > > The 68000 series was based on the PDP-11 design. Not much influence? I learn something new every day. :-) I don't know much about the internals of the 68k and I know even less about the PDP-11, so I'll take your word for it! No matter what, of course, the PDPs and the rest of the pre-microprocessor computers DID of course influence computing and they deserve to be at least as famous as their more recent counterparts like the Altair and company. Of course the press and mainstream folk (oops, there we go again) seem blissfully unaware of computing as it was before the invention of the microchip, but we can still remember. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 29 20:45:12 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: Atari prob, etc. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970429204724.008eb34c@mail.comland.com > Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > That's a shocker for me. I think I need to learn a little more about > electronics, and if you tear yours apart, I would love to have a copy of the > schematics. It might be a good learners project for me, and useful as well. Mind you, sometimes you can hack something together without paying any money. I have an MC-10 which I got sans PSU. I couldn't find anything like it anywhere (8V AC, 1.5A). In the end I hacked an existing DC transformer by bypassing its rectifier. One of the settings provided exactly the power rating of the MC-10 (well, almost -- it gave around 0.9 to 1A). The MC-10 worked fine, albeit a few months after getting it (couldn't risk burning the thingy). I wouldn't recommend doing this if you don't know what could go wrong, though. You may fry a perfectly good old computer by mistake. Believe me, I've done it and I didn't like it *AT ALL*. Now I'm really careful of power supplies and proper insulation, polarity and ratings for everything. It pays. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 30 09:42:06 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > The PDP systems are great machines but I'd rather stick with the > micro-computer craze as the focus for the first show. This is not to say > that the classic mini's will not be highlighted. I plan on definitely > having them as part of the exhibit...maybe even a mainframe if I can get > a donor. Perhaps at the 2nd show we will focus on the 50s-60s era mini's > and mainframes. Well, there is the collection of three mainframes up in Portland, I don't have the URL handy. Problem is, those things are at best semi-portable, i.e. it takes a big damn truck. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From danjo at xnet.com Wed Apr 30 09:23:00 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > > > Yes, I realized that. The PDP-8 and PDP-11 are definitely worthy of [Snippy] > > *other* stuff. Once seeing a PDP-8, it kind of hit home that, Yes you > > could pack all the power of a room full of stuff into one half height [Snippy] > Well, even though I am proposing a micro as the Computer of the Show, it > does not mean that this is to the exclusion of all other systems. > Definitely the PDP will be featured (if we can get one at the show) and > will enjoy a billing equal to the other systems. Your next point is > compelling though... Gee, Sam, I thought ALL my points were compelling 8-) > > > Good suggestions. But for the first year, recognizable names from > > > the annals of computer history would go a longer way towards gaining [Snippitty] > > running battle with and ask them too! Explain how the *battle* > > improved the world for everyone. Nobody was right - nobody was wrong. > > It's just how things went. > > This would be attractive to Cray. But isn't Cray gone now? Are they? Was that recent? Who is supporting the hardware/software now? Gee, isn't MITS gone? Isn't Commodore gone? Isn't the Home Computer Products Division at TI gone? I don't know about MITS but Rockwell might like some words since they still(?) source 65XX products, and TI wouldn't mind some interest. Motorola did/do the 6800/68000. > Anyhow, if we tell the plight of one manufacturer, other manufacturer's > will get a black eye that we didn't choose THEIR system and will hold a > grudge against the show for ever more. I don't think you can win unless > you highlight ALL the systems and have ample history on ALL the players > in the computer industry. You'll still miss SOMEBODY 8-) There's no way around it if you plan on keeping the show to any KNOWN display area (you don't have a Tardis do you?) > So this is what I plan on doing, except I still want to showcase a micro > as the show highlight because: > 1) I grew up on them and Well, my kids grew up on Minis. There was just no other place to put them, the kids I mean 8-) Used a PDP 11/23 as a changing table 8-) > 2) they brought computers into the hands of the masses. What! This is a good thing? 8-) > Mini's made them accessible to businesses, etc. But micro's made > computing power accessible to just about anyone. They would be the > systems that people would most readily identify with. I think as long > as we have a mix of all the different platforms, it will be a show for > all. Kidding aside, have you thought about the layout of the show? Are you going to try a "Trip Throught Time" style (linear) with the oldest up front and then walk thru to the present? Are you going to try a *cross* with seperate arms Minis down one way 65/68 stuff down another and Intel down the long one and the *selected* machine at the top? Or aren't you thinking that far ahead yet? BC From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 30 09:48:56 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > This would be attractive to Cray. But isn't Cray gone now? Anyhow, if I recall that Seymour Cray left Cray Computers back in the eighties. > we tell the plight of one manufacturer, other manufacturer's will get a > black eye that we didn't choose THEIR system and will hold a grudge > against the show for ever more. I don't think you can win unless you > highlight ALL the systems and have ample history on ALL the players in > the computer industry. So this is what I plan on doing, except I still Well, the safest way to avoid such jealousy is to showcase a system from a long-defunct company (not merely one that was acquired by another company that's still viable), preferably one whose founders have since died. What's the status of the principals of Altair, Imsai and SWTPC? (Especially the last -- I prefer Motorola to Intel). -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From scott at saskatoon.com Wed Apr 30 10:07:08 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <199704301504.JAA03729@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Altair, Imsai and SWTPC? (Especially the last -- I > prefer Motorola to Intel). OOPS! I have a Motorola-based Altair... (Altair 680) Maybe we can feature it? (Just kidding, but I thought I should point out your slight error.) ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca CANADA email: walde@dlcwest.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Apr 30 10:08:58 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > Well, there is the collection of three mainframes up in Portland, I > don't have the URL handy. Problem is, those things are at best > semi-portable, i.e. it takes a big damn truck. http://www.teleport.com/~prp I know the person who owns this collection, and they aren't likely to move again no matter how large the truck is! B^} (and there are more than three...) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Wed Apr 30 10:01:55 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704301501.KAA17184@fudge.uchicago.edu> Brett said, > > This would be attractive to Cray. But isn't Cray gone now? > > Are they? Was that recent? Who is supporting the hardware/software now? A year or so ago, I think. Silicon Graphics bought the company. eric From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 30 10:22:52 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <199704301504.JAA03729@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > Altair, Imsai and SWTPC? (Especially the last -- I > > prefer Motorola to Intel). > > OOPS! I have a Motorola-based Altair... (Altair 680) > Maybe we can feature it? (Just kidding, but I thought > I should point out your slight error.) I recall the ads, now that you mention it -- don't recall ever seeing one in person. How much are you asking? (Although the SWTPC bus was considerably superior to the Altair bus -- life is too short to hold humble opinions.) -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From danjo at xnet.com Wed Apr 30 10:30:25 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > > Altair, Imsai and SWTPC? (Especially the last -- I > > > prefer Motorola to Intel). > > > > OOPS! I have a Motorola-based Altair... (Altair 680) > > Maybe we can feature it? (Just kidding, but I thought > > I should point out your slight error.) > > I recall the ads, now that you mention it -- don't recall ever seeing > one in person. How much are you asking? (Although the SWTPC bus was > considerably superior to the Altair bus -- life is too short to hold > humble opinions.) I have the ad! It's a reprint I got with something from them way back. Christmas of 76? Have to dig it up. Got Santa sitting with one. I thought it was funny that the price matched the model number 8-) Would it be a copyright infringement if I scanned it and put it on a Web Page????? BC From danjo at xnet.com Wed Apr 30 10:34:06 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <199704301501.KAA17184@fudge.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Eric Fischer wrote: > Brett said, > > > This would be attractive to Cray. But isn't Cray gone now? > > > > Are they? Was that recent? Who is supporting the hardware/software now? > > A year or so ago, I think. Silicon Graphics bought the company. That will teach me to stick my head into these damn PeeCees! I must of missed a LOT of stuff. I just wish it wasn't always an obituary that brought me back to my senses 8-( BC From gram at cnct.com Wed Apr 30 10:41:55 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > I have the ad! It's a reprint I got with something from them way back. > Christmas of 76? Have to dig it up. Got Santa sitting with one. I thought > it was funny that the price matched the model number 8-) > Would it be a copyright infringement if I scanned it and put it on a > Web Page????? I doubt anyone would get too soggy and hard to light. Who _does_ own the MITS copyrights and patents now? (Though I think all of the patents have expired, copyrights now extend unto at _least_ the third generation.) -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From danjo at xnet.com Wed Apr 30 10:43:43 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: Replies to stuff... In-Reply-To: <3366DC4A.4141@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > From: hellige > To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu [Major Snipage] > > (RE: Visible Memory Board deveoped for KIM-1 first.) > > Wow, that's incredible. Not only did I not think that PETs that old could > > do high-res graphics in any way, but to learn that one could do so on > > the KIM-1! I'm flabberghasted. ;) > > The KIM is something I'd really like to find somewhere. > So would I. Gee, as more and more of you guys mention this I start thinking of insurance for mine 8-) There was (and maybe still is) a guy on the east coast (U.S.) I think called - Hudson Software(?) - that sold disk interfaces and languages for the KIM! I will go looking in my *stacks* 8-) > > I have this terrible fear, though, of coming across one in some > > electronic surplus shop and not recognizing it. :) > I had nightmares about coming across an incredible Commodore stash in > some store and not having any money. *gasp!* Maybe you should invest NOW in a nice Uzi 8-) With that you can arrange for payment at a later date 8-) [More Snip] > P.S. I think I'm gonna start writing a FAQ about the Commodore PET. > Will let you guys now when I get it on-line. DO IT! BC From danjo at xnet.com Wed Apr 30 10:49:05 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: Atari prob, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > > That's a shocker for me. I think I need to learn a little more about > > electronics, and if you tear yours apart, I would love to have a copy of the > > schematics. It might be a good learners project for me, and useful as well. > > Mind you, sometimes you can hack something together without paying any > money. I have an MC-10 which I got sans PSU. I couldn't find anything like > it anywhere (8V AC, 1.5A). In the end I hacked an existing DC transformer by > bypassing its rectifier. One of the settings provided exactly the power > rating of the MC-10 (well, almost -- it gave around 0.9 to 1A). The MC-10 > worked fine, albeit a few months after getting it (couldn't risk burning the > thingy). > > I wouldn't recommend doing this if you don't know what could go wrong, > though. You may fry a perfectly good old computer by mistake. Believe me, > I've done it and I didn't like it *AT ALL*. Now I'm really careful of power > supplies and proper insulation, polarity and ratings for everything. It > pays. I thought there was a way to put a bridge rectifier (or something REAL close) on a DC power supply that would let you plug it into a DC load and the polarity wouldn't matter. That and a lab power supply with voltage and amp meters would pretty well remove all possiblity of damage to board. (Well, most of the porbablity anyway) BC From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Wed Apr 30 11:43:52 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: Funky looking mouse and other TCF stuff... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 Apr 1997 23:55:44 EDT." Message-ID: <199704301643.LAA25987@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> From: "Mr. Self Destruct" : >1 Funky Mouse *FREE* > >This last thing I need help with. It looks to be about 20+ years old but >I could be wrong... It is bright red, almost perfectly round, has a steel >ball as the roller, 3 black switches, and says "5271" and then "DEPRAZ - >MOUSE" on the bottom. It has what looks likea standard serial cable. The >guy said it was for a terminal right before he threw it out. Any ideas? >More importantly.... do you think I could use it on my PeeCEE? 8) That mouse sounds familiar. I seem to remember a mouse like that which was used with the AT&T 5620 terminal. As to using it on a PC, I'd doubt it, but you'd want to get some technical detail to be sure. Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From william at ans.net Wed Apr 30 12:15:23 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199704301715.AB08123@interlock.ans.net> > Well, there is the collection of three mainframes up in Portland, I > don't have the URL handy. Problem is, those things are at best > semi-portable, i.e. it takes a big damn truck. Mainframes might be a bit too much to take around to shows, unfortunately. I think the artifacts would be in too much danger of being damaged. Minis are a different story. I think a deracked PDP-8/e or PDP-11/20, with a teleprinter, would be very reasonable. William Donzelli william@ans.net From kevan at motiv.co.uk Wed Apr 30 12:47:00 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: Funky looking mouse and other TCF stuff... In-Reply-To: <199704301643.LAA25987@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Message-ID: <199704301747.SAA19080@cream.motiv.co.uk> In message <199704301643.LAA25987@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu>you write: > > That mouse sounds familiar. I seem to remember a mouse like that > which was used with the AT&T 5620 terminal. > It sounds familiar to me also, as I have one for my Whitechapel workstation, although it isn't red but is just beige. I have heard them referred to as "Swiss Mice" - don't know why. Kevan From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed Apr 30 18:56:12 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: Funky looking mouse and other TCF stuff... In-Reply-To: <199704301747.SAA19080@cream.motiv.co.uk>; from "Kevan Heydon" at Apr 30, 97 6:47 pm Message-ID: <199704301756.15686@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > In message <199704301643.LAA25987@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu>you write: > > > > That mouse sounds familiar. I seem to remember a mouse like that > > which was used with the AT&T 5620 terminal. > > > > It sounds familiar to me also, as I have one for my Whitechapel > workstation, although it isn't red but is just beige. I have heard them > referred to as "Swiss Mice" - don't know why. I knew the name sounded familiar, now I know why. It's in the Whitechapel Milliard Gargantubrain (that's what the MG in MG1 stands for, apparently) technical manual. If it's the same mouse, it's a pretty dumb unit, and outputs the 4 quadrature signals (2 for X, 2 for Y) on separate pins. It's a bit like an atari ST/amiga/PC bus mouse. Of course there may have been versions with built-in electronics to make them PC serial mice... > Kevan -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ronaldm at mars.ark.com Wed Apr 30 13:20:53 1997 From: ronaldm at mars.ark.com (Ron Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) Message-ID: <199704301938.MAA14871@mars.ark.com> I have an Apple II Plus, with 4 (count 'em) 4, 128k disk drives, all operational. It also has a 256k RAM card, an 80 col card, and a Super Serial card along with a Microsoft Z80 CP/M card. I don't use it very much these days, except for a bit of record keeping on my video tape collection. Just out of sheer perversity, I'm using Appleworks, which loads itself into the RAM card and seems to operate from there. Also have something called the DAVEX shell, which provides a front end for a number of activities including running Appleworks. Once you get the keys figured out, it works not half bad for my occasional record keeping. It's like most of the stuff I have around here. It came with a literal ton of software, most of which I haven't even taken the time to check out yet. Also has a voice recognition card, and an EPROM burner which are sadly stored away in my lockup. One of these days. So many computers, so little time! -Ron Mitchell ---------- > From: Tim Shoppa > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) > Date: Saturday, April 26, 1997 12:52 PM > > > > I just swapped a bare II/E for a Bare II. Going price for a bare IIE is about > > > $20 on the Apple newsgroups. Apple II's don't seem to be valued very much in > > > the Apple II newsgroup or for sale group. Tim. (Balance of message snipped) From scott at saskatoon.com Wed Apr 30 21:56:31 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <199705010253.UAA00471@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > > OOPS! I have a Motorola-based Altair... (Altair 680) > I recall the ads, now that you mention it -- don't recall ever seeing > one in person. How much are you asking? (Although the SWTPC bus was It's not for sale ;-) If you want to see it, I just put up a .jpg on my website. (No nice link to it yet though...) http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca/pics/altair680.jpg And for anyone's curiosity, one corner of my basement can be seen at: http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca/pics/basement.jpg (How many machines can you identify on this picture?) > considerably superior to the Altair bus -- life is too short to hold > humble opinions.) As far as I can tell, the 680 really didn't have much of a bus at all. (We are talking about an expansion bus, aren't we? Not the mandatory data & address busses.) There are no slots inside. The 680 is considerable smaller than the 8800s. ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca CANADA email: walde@dlcwest.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From dastar at crl.com Wed Apr 30 22:04:57 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <199704301504.JAA03729@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Altair, Imsai and SWTPC? (Especially the last -- I > > prefer Motorola to Intel). > > OOPS! I have a Motorola-based Altair... (Altair 680) > Maybe we can feature it? (Just kidding, but I thought > I should point out your slight error.) Bring it out! We'll put it on display. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Apr 30 22:06:53 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > I have the ad! It's a reprint I got with something from them way back. > Christmas of 76? Have to dig it up. Got Santa sitting with one. I thought > it was funny that the price matched the model number 8-) > Would it be a copyright infringement if I scanned it and put it on a > Web Page????? Let's put it this way...if you get sued, I promise to pay for your defense. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Apr 30 22:02:02 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > > This would be attractive to Cray. But isn't Cray gone now? > > Are they? Was that recent? Who is supporting the hardware/software now? I believe they folded and were swallowed up by some other company. Someone correct me here. > > Mini's made them accessible to businesses, etc. But micro's made > > computing power accessible to just about anyone. They would be the > > systems that people would most readily identify with. I think as long > > as we have a mix of all the different platforms, it will be a show for > > all. > > Kidding aside, have you thought about the layout of the show? Are you > going to try a "Trip Throught Time" style (linear) with the oldest up > front and then walk thru to the present? Are you going to try a *cross* > with seperate arms Minis down one way 65/68 stuff down another and Intel > down the long one and the *selected* machine at the top? Or aren't you > thinking that far ahead yet? I haven't started on the actual planning yet. I plan on sitting down and planning it in a month or so. First I have a wedding to deal with :) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Apr 30 22:12:40 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) In-Reply-To: <199704301938.MAA14871@mars.ark.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Ron Mitchell wrote: > I have an Apple II Plus, with 4 (count 'em) 4, 128k disk drives, all > operational. It also has a 256k RAM card, an 80 col card, and a Super > Just out of sheer perversity, I'm using Appleworks, which loads itself into A ][+ running AppleWorks? You're a sadist. > Also has a voice recognition card, and an EPROM burner which are sadly > stored away in my lockup. One of these days. What kind of voice recog. card do you have? I have one as well but I can't recall off-hand who the manufacturer is. I'll go pull mine out and check, but I'd be interested in know who made yours as they were not the most common card for the apple, for sure. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From danjo at xnet.com Wed Apr 30 22:56:05 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > > Kidding aside, have you thought about the layout of the show? Are you > > going to try a "Trip Throught Time" style (linear) with the oldest up > > front and then walk thru to the present? Are you going to try a *cross* > > with seperate arms Minis down one way 65/68 stuff down another and Intel > > down the long one and the *selected* machine at the top? Or aren't you > > thinking that far ahead yet? > > I haven't started on the actual planning yet. I plan on sitting down and > planning it in a month or so. First I have a wedding to deal with :) Now - I wonder WHO'S getting married 8-) Just remember, it's not like collecting computers. You can't sell them off, but you might find someone else who will take them 8-) They talk back AND spend all your money - Nope - NOTHING like computers. 8-) BC From danjo at xnet.com Wed Apr 30 22:57:46 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > > I have the ad! It's a reprint I got with something from them way back. > > Christmas of 76? Have to dig it up. Got Santa sitting with one. I thought > > it was funny that the price matched the model number 8-) > > Would it be a copyright infringement if I scanned it and put it on a > > Web Page????? > > Let's put it this way...if you get sued, I promise to pay for your defense. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > I am leaving this intact in my PERMANENT storage file - just in case. I THINK you know what I mean Sam. BC (Scan to come later) From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Apr 30 22:59:44 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970430205944.00d8d7d8@agora.rdrop.com> At 11:41 AM 4/30/97 -0400, you wrote: > >I doubt anyone would get too soggy and hard to light. Who _does_ own the >MITS copyrights and patents now? (Though I think all of the patents have >expired, copyrights now extend unto at _least_ the third generation.) Well... First MITS was acquired by Pertec, who proceeded to run the whole computer line straight into the ground. Later, Pertec was bought by Triumph-Adler in Germany. I've wanted to run a few similar questions by them, but have found no easy means of communication so far... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From scott at saskatoon.com Wed Apr 30 23:02:33 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: Contest Message-ID: <199705010359.VAA09570@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> In case you missed it, my basement can be viewed at: http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca/pics/basement.jpg or if you have a crappy old browser that doesn't send "Host:" in the request: http://www.cprompt.sk.ca/scott/pics/basement.jpg I can identify 20 machines (18 unique) in this picture. (Some are in boxes, and of course, I have the high-resolution version by walking around the corner and down the stairs... but anyway...) How many can you identify? For bonus marks if you can identify any peripherals. Email your answers to me at: scott@saskatoon.com ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca CANADA email: walde@dlcwest.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From jeffh at eleventh.com Wed Apr 30 12:32:19 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 02-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >> This was actually the first machine produced with the name >> TANDY instead of TRS-80. The Model 2000 was the last of >> the TRS-80 line. >No. The Tandy 2000 never had a TRS-80 logo. The 4D was the last >TRS-80 much later on. All of the MS-DOS machines were Tandy, not >TRS-80. Ward, The Model 2000 did carry the TRS-80 logo. The black/silver badge on the front of the machine, which was rotatable in case you put the 2000 upright on it's nifty floor stand, said 'Tandy' on the first line, in a black band, 'TRS-80' on the second in a silver band, and 'Model 2000 Personal Computer' in the third on another black band. This is clearly shown on the front of the 'Tandy Service Manual: Tandy Model 2000 Personal Computer'. I owned one of these machines for a number of years, but sold it when I got caught in the clone upgrade mania. Now I'm working on purchasing another. Also, I aquired an Atari XE System today, with the optional keyboard, along with two 1050 disk drives. Cute little machine, and includes the light gun. Anyone in need of a 1050 disk drive for an Atari 8bit? I don't need both, and don't have a PSU to test either out with. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, and Mega-ST/2, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles.